"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287673f08581448e39fb0d1a2b56c3bf1\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 30 MAY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd029ae9ebd34fc9a4deadb2460fcb6b\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 30 MAY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002272c721adde174137a1478d27ddc43d90\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fab9e1c0a0ae43fda5e34d6ba8508030\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f72c1f97380049caa34a489d7f709450\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f72c1f97380049caa34a489d7f709450\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility for the welfare, peace, and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002275dc1f7d11434b03bcd0cae449f7221a\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022590ef05993834e1f852219271c88ec3f\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Winery Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022864c0695cb384745a4dd264261235bac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022864c0695cb384745a4dd264261235bac\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, on 29 May 2024, when the committee of the whole House was considering the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Winery Cellar Door Tasting) Amendment Bill, the result of the vote on the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s Amendment Paper 30 was incorrectly announced as Ayes 28, Noes 77. The correct result was Ayes 38, Noes 77. The record will be corrected accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002237863af7e0dc4de5a8d0581cb82c11f1\u0022\u003EPETITIONS, PAPERS, SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS, AND INTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e23b3a6474ef477a81ec78d12694a21e\u0022\u003EPETITIONS, PAPERS, SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS, AND INTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224f05ceb0e8cf40ccbf3e84fdc130b7fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f05ceb0e8cf40ccbf3e84fdc130b7fa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00222edc00b987ea47148cc9aa5dbd7b20b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222edc00b987ea47148cc9aa5dbd7b20b7\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Entrust requesting that the House change the Income Tax Act to enable it to become a listed portfolio investment entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002249f425e220f24f30a917344b68a32213\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249f425e220f24f30a917344b68a32213\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0492a87fa1f4cbda6fc908db903bea4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0492a87fa1f4cbda6fc908db903bea4\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Government responses to the petitions of Mohamed Soliman, Kate Stone, and David Cumin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227615c77ba4cf4fe48bfba8ddbe0db727\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227615c77ba4cf4fe48bfba8ddbe0db727\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00228e8e70706d76453ca2a33f2da1ccd5ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e8e70706d76453ca2a33f2da1ccd5ef\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Education and Workforce Committee on the review briefing on the 2022-23 annual review of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EController and Auditor-General draft annual plan 2024-25, and the \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand Financial Stability Report, May 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the complaint about the E-Scooters (Declaration Not to be Motor Vehicles) Notice 2018.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002242f389df943c49be8bb346c5ea7fa538\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242f389df943c49be8bb346c5ea7fa538\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The reports are set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00222d797bfbce1547aaa189be9e32b208eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d797bfbce1547aaa189be9e32b208eb\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223715d69972ae4166b677d5925f0aef37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223715d69972ae4166b677d5925f0aef37\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That bill has been set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002275fba24a50094e43ab4c8e42089c772a\u0022\u003ESUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES DOCUMENTS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002237956a7c94244e28ae76944e6b59afd3\u0022\u003ESUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES DOCUMENTS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00222e293169939845a4bf2a92c8058453fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e293169939845a4bf2a92c8058453fa\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I present the Supplementary Estimates of Appropriations for the Government of New Zealand for the Year Ending 30\u00A0June 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225731babe23244cad94216442579d62a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225731babe23244cad94216442579d62a7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That paper is published under the authority of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f1d646dfbeb4b7b84721e127d3f965e\u0022\u003EBudget Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a54c437e6f2542129dc7bdc8fd55b650\u0022\u003EBudget Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002265fdc5f95a484531a74b979f9f635033\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265fdc5f95a484531a74b979f9f635033\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I present the 2024 Budget speech, the Budget at a Glance 2024, the Tax at a Glance 2024, the Fiscal Strategy Report 2024, the Child Poverty Report 2024, the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update 2024, the Summary of Initiatives 2024, and the Estimates of Appropriations for the Government of New Zealand for the Year ending 30 June 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229fc8a00a8be6437995d0ee8829322522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fc8a00a8be6437995d0ee8829322522\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba1b85f1e13a48838633fde044e21dd7\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022883cdda96ce94a429947c68a50dcaae7\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002240f775894aec4700a2e2c2135fa6554e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240f775894aec4700a2e2c2135fa6554e\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Appropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222b06dd7e6261446eb35757a7db42ad21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b06dd7e6261446eb35757a7db42ad21\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Appropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill is set down for first reading immediately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a27240cdcb14400781a7ee913551f2ac\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002233afae2b1ca547bcbe353295789a46e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233afae2b1ca547bcbe353295789a46e2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002245b001f3fa774b3da3ae74cb3078b133\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000038\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f63eb0e04c147aaa68b3b4da1e88e2a\u0022\u003EBudget Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ddcb2e1d026b4b2c8e17bbbc1983cd10\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00228e8ded2c85d342208704b5cc9d99027c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e8ded2c85d342208704b5cc9d99027c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. E mihi ana ki a Ahumairangi, ki a Tangi-te-keo, ki Te Whanga-nui-a-Tara. T\u0101ne whakapiripiri e t\u016B nei, e ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata whenua o te rohe, e ng\u0101 mema o te Whare P\u0101remata, kia ora. N\u014Dku te H\u014Dnore, ki te whakarewa i te Tahua m\u014D te tau nei, rarau mai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you all. Acknowledgments to Ahumairangi, to Tangi-te-keo, to Te Whanga-nui-a-Tara. T\u0101ne the uniter, standing here, the indigenous people of this region, the members of this Parliament, kia ora to you all. It is my honour to speak to this Budget this year. Welcome.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAs I said in te reo M\u0101ori, it is an honour to announce this year\u2019s Budget. The Budget delivers on key commitments. For the first time in 14 years, hard-working New Zealanders will get to keep more of their own money through our Government\u2019s tax relief. We are shifting resources out of the back office of Government and into the front line. We are investing in healthcare, in schools, and Police. We are putting New Zealanders\u2019 money where it can make the biggest difference. What\u2019s more, our commitments are delivered within an operating allowance that is the lowest, in real terms, since Steven Joyce\u2019s Budget in 2017. In other words, this is a fiscally responsible Budget\u2014the most fiscally responsible in seven years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EOn Budget day, it\u2019s easy to get caught up in the analysis, the commentary, and the voices in the lobby. Actually, that is not what the Budget is about. This Budget is for everyday people getting on with their lives\u2014the mums and dads rushing the kids to daycare or k\u014Dhanga, working hard, waiting in traffic and watching the petrol light flash again. This Budget is for the people whose doors I knocked on in the election campaign, who said $20 a week would be the difference between staying on top of the bills and being in overdraft. It\u2019s for the man who told me he picked up a second job driving an Uber to pay the rent. It\u2019s for every New Zealander, from every walk of life, who gives their best and wants a fair deal in return. This is a Budget for the squeezed middle of New Zealand\u2014the shift workers, the people working two jobs, the families making sacrifices for their kids. Parliament\u2019s focus today, and every day, should be the results we deliver for people like them. Because the right measure of success is whether Government is making a positive difference to the lives of New Zealanders and their families, not how many times it claims to care, and not how much money it spends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe creation and passage of a Budget each year is at the heart of stable Government. This Budget is a team effort. In particular, I want to acknowledge and thank the Associate Ministers of Finance\u2014David Seymour, Shane Jones, and Chris Bishop\u2014who were heavily involved in putting this Budget together. It has benefited considerably from their ideas, advice, and input. The other Budget Minister in this process was the Prime Minister. I am grateful for his leadership, support, and wise counsel, as always.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge how challenging economic conditions are for many Kiwis right now. New Zealand is experiencing a very difficult downturn. It suffered an acute cost of living crisis in 2022 and 2023. The Reserve Bank responded by raising interest rates. The official cash rate went from 0.25 percent to 5.5 percent and has remained there for a year. That hurts. I get regular updates from the Treasury about the state of the economy. What is apparent now, compared to six months ago, is that the current downturn started earlier, has been deeper, and is expected to last for longer than previously thought. In this environment, I feel for families and businesses across the country who are doing it tough.\u00A0What I can say to them is that better times lie ahead. The economy is robust and it will recover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EForecasts in the Budget update indicate that current weakness in the economy will reduce inflation pressures and lead to a gradual easing of interest rates. The Treasury expects the unemployment rate to peak at the end of 2024 and start of 2025, before beginning to fall. As interest rates ease, economic growth is forecast to pick up over the second half of this year and to continue into 2025. The Government\u2019s job is to help that recovery, not hinder it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn recent years, big Government spending has fuelled inflation. It has also caused a significant deterioration in New Zealand\u2019s fiscal position. The operating balance before gains and losses (OBEGAL)\u2014the difference between Government revenue and spending before gains and losses\u2014has been in deficit since 2019-2020. For the most part, this is a result of continued spending increases. Some of these increases were temporary\u2014in response to COVID-19, for example\u2014but others were not. After stripping out large one-off expenses and adjusting for the economic cycle,  Treasury estimates a structural operating deficit of around 1.5 percent of GDP this financial year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u201CStructural deficit\u201D is a technical term. To put it less formally, New Zealand has been borrowing to pay for the groceries. This borrowing has contributed to rapidly rising debt. In 2017-18, net core Crown debt was under 20 percent of GDP. It is now over 43 percent of GDP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe solution is clear. Revenue and expenses must be brought back into balance. Debt must come down. This task is challenging. It has become even more challenging as the economic forecasts have deteriorated. Compared to the half-year update, the Budget update expects core Crown tax revenue to be lower by around $18.5 billion across the forecast period as a result of lower GDP and lower business income tax. That is a significant revenue downgrade, leading to a lower operating balance and higher debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ETo bring revenue and expenses back into balance, the Government has a choice. It can manage its spending, or it can raise additional revenue. Given that choice, this Government\u2019s focus is squarely on managing spending. The key top-down tool for this is operating allowances\u2014that is the amount set aside for discretionary new spending in each Budget. We are setting tight but realistic operating allowances in this Budget and in future Budgets. We intend to stick to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI said in the Budget Policy Statement that the final operating allowance for Budget 2024 would be less than $3.5 billion, which was the allowance set by the previous Government. The final allowance in this year\u2019s Budget is in fact $3.2 billion. This is the lowest allowance in nominal terms since Budget 2018 and the lowest in real terms\u2014that is, adjusting for inflation\u2014since Budget 2017. Operating allowances for Budgets 2025 to 2027 will be even lower, at $2.4 billion per Budget. These are considerably lower than the allowances presented in the half-year update, which were set by the previous Government, and they are lower than those set out in National\u2019s fiscal plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EBy comparison, the final operating allowances for the last two Labour Budgets were $5.9\u00A0billion in 2022 and $4.8 billion in 2023. Managing within future allowances of $2.4\u00A0billion will be challenging. Savings and reprioritisation will be a feature of future Budgets, just as they are in Budget 2024. They will be a business-as-usual activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe Fiscal Strategy Report sets out the Government\u2019s fiscal intentions and objectives. These remain as they were in the Budget Policy Statement, with one addition: the Government intends to get back to surplus in 2027-28. This is one year later than forecast in the half-year update, which showed a microscopic surplus of $140 million in 2026-27. As I have mentioned, a weaker outlook for tax revenue has flowed through into lower OBEGAL balances and a higher debt track. The Budget update now shows a $3.1 billion deficit in 2026-27 and a $1.5 billion surplus in 2027-28. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EProjections in the Fiscal Strategy Report show the Government is also on track to meet its other key objectives: to reduce net core Crown debt to between 20 percent and 40\u00A0percent of GDP, and to reduce core Crown expenses towards 30 percent of GDP. I would like to achieve those goals faster than the current projections show. But the Government is not planning an aggressive fiscal consolidation. We are taking a deliberate, medium-term approach and we will not overreact to movements up or down in the forecasts. We will be making difficult decisions and trade-offs to turn the fiscal situation around, get back to surplus and reduce debt, because that is what is required. But New Zealanders should know this: we will look after them along the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhen analysing changes in the fiscal forecasts, it\u2019s important to distinguish between economic forces beyond the Government\u2019s immediate control and Budget decisions that clearly are in our control. Downgrades to the GDP and revenue forecasts fall into the first group. As I said, the weaker outlook for revenue\u2014all else being equal\u2014reduces the operating balance and increases debt across the forecast period. Also, because the economy is smaller, Government spending makes up a larger proportion of the economy. Consequently, the fiscal stance has been making, and will continue to make, a greater contribution to inflationary pressures than previously assessed. Those are facts. They would apply no matter which parties made up the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThen there are the Government\u2019s fiscal policy decisions. This Government has reduced the operating allowance in Budget 2024 and significantly lowered it for the next three Budgets. Overall, these lower allowances result in a cumulative total improvement in OBEGAL of approximately $5.5\u00A0billion across the forecast period compared to the allowances in the half-year update. That lower spending will improve the debt track and reduce inflationary pressure over the forecast period, compared to what would otherwise be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn addition, modelling from the Treasury suggests that the impact of tax reductions offset by spending is also likely to modestly reduce pressure on interest rates. So, yes, the fiscal forecasts have deteriorated since the half-year update, but not as much as they otherwise would have in the absence of the Government\u2019s Budget decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe best illustration is this: if the Government had retained the operating allowances from the half-year update\u2014those that were set by the previous Government\u2014the operating balance would not return to surplus until at least 2031. The Budget allowances I talked about are a net concept. They encompass spending, saving, and revenue measures. The $3.2 billion allowance in this year\u2019s Budget\u2014as I said, the lowest allowance in real terms since Budget 2017\u2014includes the cost of tax relief. This tax relief is long overdue. A visitor from the year 2010 would recognise the current personal income tax rates and thresholds, because apart from a new top rate, they are exactly the same. And, yet, since 2010, inflation has pushed up wages in nominal terms. And, as a result, people pay more of their income in tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe median full-time wage and salary earner now earns $73,000 a year and is in one of the highest tax brackets. A minimum wage worker can face a marginal tax rate of 30\u00A0percent. Fortunately, the parties in this coalition Government are the parties of the worker. We want working people to keep more of what they earn. We want to ease the cost of living pressures people have been under for so long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EFrom 31 July, personal income tax thresholds will rise. They will rise from $14,000 to $15,600; from $48,000 to $53,500; and from $70,000 to $78,100. This reduces income tax for anyone earning more than $14,000. From 31 July, the eligibility for the independent earner tax credit will be extended from $48,000 a year to $70,000 a year of income. This will help an estimated 420,000 additional people, most of whom will get the full $20 boost a fortnight. And from 31 July, the in-work tax credit, which helps support low to middle income working families with children, will be increased by $50\u00A0a fortnight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EFamilies with young children will also benefit from the new FamilyBoost childcare payment I announced in March. From 1 July 2024, parents and caregivers can get back up to 25 percent of their early childhood education fees, to a maximum fortnightly amount of $150. This maximum amount reduces for family incomes over $140,000 a year, and families with an income of $180,000 or more aren\u2019t yet eligible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis package of tax relief is identical in most respects to that set out in National\u2019s election tax plan. The implementation date for the changes, other than for FamilyBoost, has been pushed out by around four weeks, after advice from Inland Revenue that payroll providers required more time to make the necessary changes. We did test this package. In particular, I engaged closely and constructively with my colleague David Seymour on the ACT Party\u2019s idea of flattening the tax scale. This has a lot of merit but it was not possible to achieve in a way that benefitted people as the National plan did. It remains, however, an idea for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn total, what will people get from tax relief? The Budget material contains various scenarios. For example, a couple earning an average household income of $125,000 a year will benefit by up to $102 a fortnight. If they have four or more children\u2014four is a good number of children to have!\u2014they could actually get slightly more than that, as they would still be eligible for Working for Families. And if they have children in early childhood education, they could get up to $150 a fortnight from FamilyBoost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThese have always been \u201Cup to\u201D examples. People\u2019s individual and family circumstances differ widely, so I encourage people to look at the tax calculator on the Budget website and\u00A0enter their details. Analysis from Treasury shows that an estimated 727,000 households will benefit by at least $75 a fortnight, and 187,000 will benefit by at least $100 a fortnight. On average, households will benefit by $60 a fortnight, and households with children by $78 a fortnight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI have occasionally heard people say in this House that tax relief only benefits the well-off. Well, that is not true of this tax package. Our changes to the in-work tax credit, and introduction of FamilyBoost, tilt the benefits of the tax package to low to middle income working families with children. Tax relief in this Budget puts $3.7 billion a year back into the pockets of New Zealanders. This tax relief is fully funded. Some of the funding is from revenue measures, but mostly it comes from savings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe funding is broadly as set out in the National Party fiscal plan, with a handful of changes to reflect coalition commitments. These include, for example, a greater investment in tax compliance\u2014an initiative proposed by New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThere are other savings in the Budget. They go well beyond the funding of tax relief. The Government has chosen to stop some areas of spending, and re-deploy resources to public services where they will have a bigger impact. Ministers and their departments have gone line by line through the spending areas they are responsible for. This scrutiny has resulted in more than 240 savings initiatives. Some amount to a few hundred thousand dollars a year, while others save tens of millions. Some reduce the amount of funding available for a particular activity, while others stop things completely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe biggest part of this Budget in dollar terms is not, in fact, tax relief; it is actually investment in public services. I am proud to tell the House that this Budget increases funding for hospitals and it increases funding for primary care. This Budget increases funding for schools, and this Budget increases funding for law and order to keep our communities safe. Two-thirds of the new spending in Budget 2024 goes to these three areas: health, education, and law and order, because this is a very targeted Budget. There is no money hose spraying cash around. Other targeted areas of investment include transport, defence, and disability services. But across the board, whether they have received additional investment or not, the Government has a clear expectation that public agencies must strengthen their focus on delivering results. We have set clear targets to improve results in health, education, law and order, employment, housing, and the environment, and we are focused on delivering them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI want to take members through some of these areas of new investment. First, let me clarify that when I talk about additional funding, I am referring to operating funding over the next four years, plus capital funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E I will start with healthcare. In Budget 2024, the Government is investing an additional $8.2 billion in the health system, including $665 million of reprioritisation. The single biggest portion of this is for Health New Zealand, with $3.4 billion earmarked for hospital and specialist services, and $2.1\u00A0billion for primary care, community, and public health. Budget 2024 also provides $1.77 billion to Pharmac\u2014as my colleague David Seymour has previously announced\u2014to ensure New Zealanders can access the medicines they rely on. It still staggers me that the previous Government funded a bunch of medicines until 30 June this year only. It staggers me more that filling this fiscal hole does not cost $700\u00A0million, as signalled in publicly available documents last year, but in fact costs $1\u00A0billion more than that. Thankfully, this Government has fixed that appalling problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe Budget provides $31 million to gradually extend free breast screening to 60,000\u00A0women aged 70 to 74. As the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for Mental Health announced last week, it provides $24 million to provide young people with free mental health counselling through the Gumboot Friday initiative. For those who seek to oppose that initiative, it is my view, and the view of our Government, that counselling will change many young lives for the better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EFunding in Budget 2024 will support hospitals and specialist services. It will also support community health providers, GPs, M\u0101ori health services, mental health services, and aged-care services. It will ensure our health system continues to be there for New Zealanders of all stages and walks of life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn addition to funding in Budget 2024, the Government has chosen to pre-commit a total of $5.5\u00A0billion worth of new health funding against the Budget 2025 operating allowance, and another $5.5 billion against the Budget 2026 allowance. We have done this to give the health sector confidence to plan for the future, to ensure New Zealanders can get the healthcare they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EEducation is the great liberator. It is the great equaliser. It is the most enduring gift we can bestow on our children. To my mind, improving the results we get from our education system is the single most important thing we can do to improve the future productivity of New Zealand. Our Government will improve educational achievement, not through growing the Ministry of Education but by focusing our efforts on the classroom. In Budget 2024, the Government is investing $2.9 billion in schools and early childhood education, and that includes $441 million of carefully sought-out reprioritisation. This includes funding for k\u014Dhanga reo, playcentres, kindergartens, kura kaupapa M\u0101ori, special schools, intermediate schools, secondary schools, charter schools, and the work that goes on in classrooms across the country. This investment includes $1.5 billion to build new schools and classrooms, and to maintain and upgrade existing ones. We\u2019re putting the funding in to fix the mouldy classrooms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAs announced previously by David Seymour, the Associate Minister of Education, the Budget provides $478 million to continue the Healthy School Lunches Programme for two more years, including $8 million to introduce a targeted programme for two-to-five-year-olds. There is $516\u00A0million in the Budget to support schools and early childhood education providers, $153 million to establish charter schools\u2014as championed by ACT\u2014and $67\u00A0million to implement structured literacy in all State primary schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn tertiary education, we are ending the failed policy that was first-year fees free. That policy failed its goal of lifting participation, and it failed to support students to complete their studies. In line with the National - New Zealand First coalition agreement, our Budget sets out a new approach of funding final-year fees free to encourage the successful completion of qualifications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWe have also recognised the vital role of on-the-job training by ensuring there is funding in place to keep key elements of the Apprenticeship Boost scheme going, supporting a range of employers to take on new apprentices. That initiative was left unfunded by the outgoing Government, and we are rescuing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to cracking down on crime and keeping communities safe so people can go about their lives in peace. In Budget 2024, we are investing $2.9\u00A0billion in restoring law and order, including $497 million of reprioritisation, other savings, and revenue. This Budget delivers on the commitment made in the National - New Zealand First coalition agreement to add 500 additional front-line police officers. Investment of $226 million will fund their recruitment and retention, and ensure they are properly equipped to do their jobs. A further $425 million will support front-line policing, including boosting police pay, and purchasing vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EOur Government will always back the police. The Government\u2019s commitment to restoring law and order means ensuring there are serious consequences for serious offenders. As previously announced, Budget 2024 will invest $1.9 billion in more front-line corrections officers, more support for offenders to turn away from crime, and more prison capacity, including an expansion of Waikeria Prison. The Budget also invests $69\u00A0million to address serious youth offending, including a military-style academy pilot, and continuing the Fast Track youth offending programme run by Oranga Tamariki and\u00A0Police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EBudget 2024 provides $1.1 billion to address demand and cost pressures on the services funded by the Ministry of Disabled People \u2013 Whaikaha. This investment will ensure that disabled people can access the services, equipment and support they need. An independent review already under way into the disability support system will help improve its long-term financial sustainability. The Budget also provides $140 million to fund 1,500 new social housing places, delivered by community housing providers. We do not subscribe to the one-size-fits-all approach and we want to see a range of different providers delivering housing for those in need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EOn coming into office, our Government was faced with a number of fiscal holes, with only short-term funding in place for what were valuable programmes. One of those was the Te Matatini regional model. Our Government is proud to have found funding of $49\u00A0million to support Te Matatini and bring kapa haka to life in the regions. This will help all New Zealanders join in the ongoing revitalisation of te reo M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori culture. Tihei mauri ora!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAs previously announced, the Budget also provides $571 million for Defence Force pay and projects, including $99 million of reprioritisation. A portion of this additional funding will increase remuneration for New Zealand Defence Force personnel and the rest will go towards upgrading equipment and infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI am determined to push forward with the social investment approach\u2014using hard evidence to invest in what works to improve outcomes for vulnerable New Zealanders. Budget 2024 creates a tagged contingency of $51 million to accelerate social investment. Part of this is to establish a social investment fund to directly commission outcomes for vulnerable New Zealanders, and work with communities, non-Government organisations and iwi providers. Another portion will be used to support the standalone Social Investment Agency, which will be in place from 1 July this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIt is part of the Kiwi character to want more for those whose lives are most difficult. Our Government understands that it is not enough to simply open our hearts to those in need. Truly solving the complex challenges of our most vulnerable requires that we apply our heads as well. The social investment approach will allow the Government to match good intentions with effective results. It will shift resources to the grassroots and drive innovation to more effectively help those in need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EBudget 2024 lays the foundations for a better performing infrastructure system. The Government is determined to address New Zealand\u2019s infrastructure deficit, while also being a careful manager of public finances. In 2024, the Government is overseeing a record level of capital investment to deliver the infrastructure on which New Zealand\u2019s growth depends. More than $68 billion is forecast to be spent on infrastructure by the Crown, Crown entities, and KiwiRail over the next five years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI have already mentioned some of the infrastructure investment in this Budget\u2014school property, Waikeria Prison, and Defence equipment and infrastructure. In addition, Budget 2024 invests $1\u00A0billion more to accelerate land transport projects including roads of national significance. This is on top of the $3.1 billion Budget 2024 commitment already signalled in the Government policy statement. Other transport investments include $939\u00A0million to repair roads damaged by last year\u2019s severe weather events in the North Island, and $200\u00A0million for maintenance and renewals on the national rail network. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EBudget 2024 also invests $1.2 billion over three years in the new Regional Infrastructure Fund, as championed by New Zealand First. The fund will invest in resilience infrastructure and regional projects that support economic growth. Among the first projects to be funded and announced today to get under way will be flood protection and resilience projects across the country. We are also providing funding to establish a National Infrastructure Agency to act as New Zealand\u2019s \u201Cfront door\u201D to connect domestic and offshore capital to New Zealand\u2019s infrastructure opportunities. What\u2019s more, we\u2019re fixing the Resource Management Act, so that instead of spending months and millions in court, those who want to build nation-changing projects can get on and build them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe Government has ensured it has fiscal headroom to fund infrastructure needs. In Budget 2024, it has topped up the multi-year capital allowance by $7 billion. As a result, $7.5 billion remains in the allowance to be allocated to future projects, so New Zealanders can have confidence that where capital investment is needed from the Government, we can fund it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe Government will invest responsibly to support New Zealand\u2019s transition to a low-emissions economy and climate-resilient future. I have mentioned, for example, climate resilience projects funded from the Regional Infrastructure Fund. Around $2.6 billion of climate initiatives funded from the previous Government\u2019s Climate Emergency Response Fund will also continue because we have judged that those projects represent good value for money. New Zealand remains on track to reach the emission reduction goals of our first emission reduction period. Later this year the Government will consult on plans to deliver emissions reductions over the second emissions budget period. Looking ahead, we expect the emissions trading scheme to play a vital role in reducing emissions. We will also consider future climate and resilience investment proposals through the normal Budget process, and manage them against Budget operating and capital allowances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis year\u2019s Budget is the clean-up job New Zealand needs. After six years of economic mismanagement, we are welcoming in a new era of careful Government spending, lower taxes for hard-working New Zealanders, and a strong focus on rebuilding the economy. Almost all the challenges New Zealand faces will be made easier if the economy grows faster. It\u2019s how we give New Zealanders the improved choices, the better public services, and the higher incomes they deserve. Economic growth is what will give all our children a reason to stay here in New Zealand. In this Budget we are getting the country\u2019s finances under control and establishing foundations for growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThere is much work ahead. Lifting productivity will be our Government\u2019s focus, whether that be through raising educational achievement, delivering better infrastructure, enabling investment, or any of the multitude of areas that need addressing. This Budget shows what is possible with care and with discipline. Our approach means New Zealanders can look forward with confidence, knowing the Government backs them. I commend this Budget to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c62070d11791433ba61707f02b597f44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c62070d11791433ba61707f02b597f44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c9a00b099fd64cad8bde4d7982fb3f91\u0022\u003EBudget Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e9223c7afe104efc96dc47de006c18fa\u0022\u003EBudget Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d90aa0cfa52f462cb98e32ba2922cc3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d90aa0cfa52f462cb98e32ba2922cc3c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That all of the words after \u201CThat\u201D be deleted and replaced with \u201Cthis House has no confidence in the Government because it is taking New Zealand backwards, it has no plan to tackle the cost of living crisis, it has failed to deliver on the promises it has made to New Zealanders, and it is prioritising the interests of landlords and property owners over hard-working Kiwis.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere was one major test that Nicola Willis had to pass in today\u2019s Budget: to demonstrate clearly that she was not borrowing to pay for tax cuts. And this Budget fails at the first hurdle: $10 billion worth of tax cuts; $12 billion worth of borrowing. You don\u2019t need an abacus to figure out that this is a Government borrowing to pay for tax cuts. At a time when the Reserve Bank is trying hard to bring inflation down, the fiscal impulse in this year\u2019s Budget is positive. The fiscal impulse next year, as a result of this Budget, is positive. In other words, at a time when the Government says it\u2019s trying to help the Reserve Bank bring inflation down, it is doing the opposite. The fiscal impulse this year and next year, as a result of this Budget, is positive. This is a Government that is fuelling inflation through tax cuts rather than helping to get inflation back down and interest rates back down again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAre New Zealanders getting the tax cuts they were promised? No, they are not: $250 per fortnight, the average family with children was promised by this Government, and what are they getting? Sixty dollars per fortnight under the tax cuts that the Government has delivered. But let\u2019s look at some of the other people who are missing out the most. I was somewhat surprised by this one: superannuitants\u2014a couple on superannuation\u2014promised $13 a week by National before the election gets $4.30. That\u2019s $2.15 per person. That\u2019s less than a packet of chewing gum. I am astounded Winston Peters agreed to that. Perhaps he wasn\u2019t paying attention when he realised that superannuitants were going to get a third of what they had been promised. The $250 a fortnight promised by National during the election campaign undoubtedly has not been delivered. The tax cuts that have been delivered won\u2019t keep up with the increasing cost of living, and the changes made in this Budget will see Kiwis paying more. New Zealanders will be worse off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s go back to the Reserve Bank and what it said, just in the last week, about what\u2019s keeping inflation higher for longer and run this Budget up against those tests. Rates are going up at astronomical levels; nothing in this Budget will tackle that. Rents are going up at high levels; nothing in this Budget is going to tackle that. The $2.9 billion in tax breaks for landlords has so far resulted in rents going up more. Insurance is going up because of the increase in natural disasters we\u2019re seeing in New Zealand, among other things, and nothing in this Budget is going to address that. This is a Budget that is going to leave New Zealanders worse off. But let\u2019s look at it against some of the other commitments that the National Party have made. They made much of this notion of fiscal cliffs\u2014that time-limited funding was such a terrible thing. Are there new fiscal cliffs in this year\u2019s Budget? Yes; there are seven. It turns out that Police operational funding is now a fiscal cliff under this year\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Government said that it was going to be increasing health and education spending at least by the level of inflation. Remember that? Nicola Willis said that during the election campaign: \u201Cat least by the level of inflation\u201D. I think her calculator must be broken, because when early childhood education providers get an increase of just 2\u00A0percent and schools get an increase of only 3 percent\u2014for some schools and not for others\u2014that\u2019s not keeping up with inflation. In fact, as a former Minister of Education, I can tell you this means that schools will be laying off teacher aides as a result of this year\u2019s meagre Budget increase. That\u2019s more jobs that are going to be cut because the Government is effectively cutting funding for schools and cutting funding for early childhood education providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESocial services are going backwards. Health and education are going backwards. The increases in this year\u2019s funding are less than those required. Te Whatu Ora made it very clear, before the election, to any incoming Government what was going to be required just to meet cost pressures, and this Government\u2019s Budget does not meet those requirements. They have not allowed additional funding to meet their new targets that they have set; so they can have no credibility. No funding to meet the targets that they\u2019ve set the health system; in fact, the health system is going to be expected to meet those at a time when its funding in real terms is going backwards. What does that mean? It means other front-line health services will have to be cut in order to meet the targets that the Government has set. And we have seen that before. We saw that under the Key Government. When targets for the health system were set and not properly funded, other front-line health services suffered as a result of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ENo responsible modern Government in 2024 would be cutting the level of investment that we make as a country in tackling climate change, and yet that is exactly what this Government is doing. One of the things you won\u2019t see in this year\u2019s Budget is accounting for the massive financial liability that is coming down the pipeline at us if we don\u2019t meet our emissions reductions targets. Billions of dollars will need to be paid out by the New Zealand Government if we fail to meet our emissions reductions targets. Not one dollar has been provided for that in this year\u2019s Budget. They are simply kicking that can down the road, increasing the liability the New Zealand Government will face in the future, potentially by billions of dollars, and just forgetting about that in this year\u2019s Budget. And, in fact, they\u2019re doing worse than that; they\u2019re cutting the very things that would help us to avoid that future liability by decreasing our emissions. Cutting the initiatives designed to reduce our emissions is not the thing that responsible 21st century Governments do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAnother thing that the Government has been very quiet on is the issue of child poverty. I\u2019m not surprised, because this year\u2019s Budget makes it clear that child poverty in New Zealand is increasing, and it is going to continue to increase and the measures that the Government has implemented in this Budget mean more children are going to be pushed below the poverty line. Here\u2019s another thing that responsible 21st century Governments don\u2019t do: they don\u2019t celebrate more children being forced below the poverty line, as this Government is. The Government has choices. The Government could choose to prioritise keeping New Zealanders in work. It could choose to prioritise lifting children out of poverty rather than forcing more children into poverty. It could choose to prioritise tackling climate change. It is not making those choices. Instead, it is choosing to prioritise tax cuts that are going to lead to higher inflation for longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk about what that actually means for the recipients of tax cuts. A minimum-wage worker will be lucky to get 30c an hour extra in their pay as a result of the tax cuts.\u00A0That\u2019s not even going to compensate for the fact that the Government lifted the minimum wage by less than the rate of inflation in the most recent adjustment. Minimum-wage workers are going backwards under this Government. A Government that is pro-worker does not leave minimum-wage workers behind. A Government that\u2019s pro-worker does not celebrate 27,000 more people going on to the Jobseeker benefit, which is what this Government\u2019s Budget is forecasting. A responsible Government does not prioritise $2.9\u00A0billion in tax cuts for landlords while hard-working New Zealanders are worse off as a result of this Government\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBacking out of their promises to New Zealanders, this Government is going back to the notion that if the rich get richer and everybody else gets pennies, somehow those at the bottom of the heap should be grateful for that. As the number of people being left behind in the modern economy grows and grows, this Government is reverting back to trickle-down economics\u2014the idea that if you give more people at the top more money, everyone else will benefit; despite 40 years of very clear evidence that that simply is not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere are plenty of other New Zealanders being left behind by this Budget, but, actually, it\u2019s future generations that will be worse off: more children in poverty, and young New Zealanders working hard to create a better future for themselves. All those students who\u00A0are in years 11 and 12, getting ready to do their NCEA exams this year, will now know that when they go on to tertiary education, they will pay more under this Government. This Government\u2019s Budget stacks more cost on to today\u2019s secondary school students for their study. There is no getting past that. Those same young people will also have more costs stacked on to them for public transport. They\u2019ll have more costs stacked on to them in rent, because rents are continuing to go up and the Government is doing nothing about that. And, of course, those same students, if they\u2019re in lower socio-economic areas, will find that the free and healthy school lunch programme they currently benefit from is turned into little more than an unhealthy snack under this Government\u2019s Budget cuts, because, let\u2019s be clear, that\u2019s exactly what they will get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s compare that with what they\u2019re doing for those on some of the highest incomes. A high-income person who has just one investment property will be getting an extra $2,085 a year in tax cuts, and an extra $15,000 a year in the tax breaks that are being dished out for landlords; $330, at least, a week better off compared to a minimum-wage worker, who gets just 30c an hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhere is the Government relying on this extra revenue? Well, they\u2019re going to be taxing more on gambling. They\u2019re going to be taxing more on tobacco. A Government that wants to fund tax cuts by increasing gambling and increasing the smoking of tobacco has certainly lost its moral compass. Every time you hear the Government saying, \u201CWe couldn\u2019t afford that; we had to make tough choices.\u201D, just remember: $2.9 billion in tax breaks for landlords was the number one priority that they had in this year\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to speak to the Kiwis who feel forgotten and left behind by this Government: the parents who are working hard to create a better future for their children, who are finding that the public transport subsidies their kids relied on have been slashed, the free and healthy lunches programme is gone, and they are undoubtedly going to have to take more money out of their own pocket to make up for the shortfall in education funding as a result of this Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo the disabled people who have been left behind by this Government, I want to say to them that we see you and we hear you, and we absolutely recommit to the notion that nothing about you should be done without you\u2014something that this Government has failed to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the tangata whenua and others who stand with the tangata whenua who are out on the forecourt of Parliament today, and I want to acknowledge M\u0101ori all up and down the country who have felt attacked, demeaned, and belittled by this Government. When M\u0101ori in New Zealand thrive, the whole country will thrive, and non-M\u0101ori New Zealanders have nothing to be afraid of from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo the reading-recovery teachers who are losing their jobs as a result of this year\u2019s Budget: we see you and we hear you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo the scientists who see their funding drying up and disappearing: we see you and we hear you, and we thank you for the contribution that you are making not just to this country\u2019s future but to the future of our planet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo the public servants who have been demeaned and maligned over recent months: we see you and we hear you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo those who are working to prevent child exploitation who are finding their jobs disappearing: we thank you for the hard work that you do. You deserve better, and the victims of child exploitation absolutely deserve better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo those who work to prevent family and sexual violence who are also finding their jobs disappearing: we thank you and we hear you as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo the children in the care system, who are finding supports provided through Oranga Tamariki\u2014like lawyers\u2014being laid off: we see you and we hear you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo the people working to prevent suicide: we see you and we hear you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo the Customs officers, those at the border, those working in biosecurity, who work to keep New Zealand safe, who have had their work demeaned by saying that they are \u201Cback office\u201D: we see you and we hear you as well, and we thank you for the hard work that you have done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo those who work so hard to eradicate Mycoplasma bovis: we celebrate the contribution that you have made, as does the primary sector. What\u2019s very clear from this year\u2019s Budget is that that Government would not have made the tough choice to eliminate Mycoplasma bovis; they just would have let it rip and let the devastation take hold in our primary sector as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo the Department of Conservation workers and the WorkSafe staff, to those who are working on climate change, and to others who find their jobs under threat: we celebrate the work that you have done and we thank you for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo first-home buyers who are finding that the dream of first-home ownership is being ripped away from them by this Government: we see you and we hear you as well. You deserve better than you are getting from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo all the community organisations out there working on the front line, who asked for more funding certainty: we see you and we hear you. We also say that funding to your organisations should not be contingent on your support for the current Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EFive-thousand jobs cut and counting\u2014that\u2019s just in the public sector\u2014with tens of thousands of jobs across the country going under this year\u2019s Budget. Rising unemployment. Higher inflation. More borrowing. A longer time to repay debt. Business\u00A0confidence down. The infrastructure sector left in ongoing limbo, laying off staff who are leaving the country because of the actions of this Government. We absolutely recognise you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo local authorities up and down the country who have been lumbered with the huge bill for upgrading water infrastructure, because this Government have simply abandoned any notion that they could have a role in fixing up the country\u2019s water infrastructure: we recognise the pressure that you are under, and we particularly recognise the pressure that ratepayers are now going to be under as a result of this Government\u2019s decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo those who support Smokefree Aotearoa and see that smoking has no role in New Zealand\u2019s future: we recognise you too, and we will continue to fight for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere are tough choices to be made. This is a difficult point in the economic cycle. But this Government\u2019s choices are making things tougher for the majority of hard-working New Zealanders. They are taking New Zealand backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI note that Nicola Willis and Christopher Luxon said that they would resign if they didn\u2019t deliver tax cuts. They\u2019ve clearly chosen to prioritise their jobs over the jobs of the thousands of New Zealanders whose jobs are now at risk as a result of this year\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOn the number one test that was set for this Budget by the Government themselves, not borrowing for tax cuts, they failed. Let\u2019s look at the numbers, stark as they are, again: $10 billion worth of tax cuts; $12 billion worth of borrowing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EA fiscal impulse that is positive\u2014i.e., the Government\u2019s injecting more stimulus into the economy at a time when the Reserve Bank is trying to bring inflation down. This Government\u2019s Budget will result in interest rates staying higher for longer. The warnings issued by the Reserve Bank just in the last week have been completely ignored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe big cost of living challenges faced by New Zealanders, like increased rents, like increased insurance, like increased rates\u2014those things haven\u2019t been tackled in this year\u2019s Budget. The cost pressures faced by our public services: not addressed by this year\u2019s Budget. Health and education: going backwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EFuture generations of New Zealanders: left undeniably worse off as a result of the changes made in this year\u2019s Budget\u2014future generations of New Zealanders who have been forgotten. The children being forced below the poverty line, and the young New Zealanders who will pay more for their education, more for their public transport, more for their rents: left behind by this year\u2019s Budget. Their families who work so hard to support them: forgotten by this year\u2019s Government Budget. The New Zealanders promised $250 a fortnight by this Government before the election, getting a fraction of that: forgotten by this year\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders could and should have had much better in this year\u2019s Budget. It is a Budget that is taking New Zealand backwards. It is a Budget full of broken promises. It is a Budget that will leave the majority of New Zealanders worse off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e73840bb37e94da9b5554537fc71194a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e73840bb37e94da9b5554537fc71194a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00223799bf9764f4492a80d0b1f8565ea302\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223799bf9764f4492a80d0b1f8565ea302\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I have to say that that was quite a sad, pathetic, and embarrassing speech from Chris Hipkins, wasn\u2019t it? I\u2019ve got to level with you: I\u2019m not sure he actually wrote that speech, and I\u2019ll tell you why. It\u2019s because Helen Clark is writing the foreign policy stuff, we\u2019ve got David Parker and the \u201CPiketty Pirates\u201D writing all the tax policy, and we\u2019ve got Michael Wood and Craig Renney doing everything else. But the one thing we know for sure is that Kieran McAnulty is writing Chris Hipkins\u2019 valedictory speech, and what I\u2019d say to Kieran McAnulty is that it\u2019s not long, son\u2014your shot and your time is coming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ENow, you can see that they\u2019re not happy campers on the Labour side. You can see it up here, real close and personal, and you know that that\u2019s the case when Carmel Sepuloni, the deputy leader, takes time off to go on Celebrity Treasure Island, which, when you think about it, is a bit like the Labour Party, isn\u2019t it? It\u2019s a lot less drama, but a lot more time on TV, when you think about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EBut for Chris Hipkins, his life is more like Survivor, because he has been hanging on to power, doing anything he can to maintain his role. Last year, he was campaigning against David Parker and against Grant Robertson on having a capital gains tax; now, he\u2019s miraculously for it. Just six months ago, he thought that exploring AUKUS pillar 2 was a good idea, just like our Government did, and now, no, he\u2019s not doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019ll tell you what was interesting: last year, he was campaigning and supporting Michael Wood in Mt Roskill, and he\u2019s not doing any of that at this point in time. I\u2019ve got to tell you, Carlos Cheung, the great National MP who won it for National for the first time ever\u2014he actually didn\u2019t count on Chris Hipkins being his greatest ally for re-election in 2026. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got to say that it was a sorry, sorry sight, seeing Chris Hipkins deliver that speech. It was sorry, because here\u2019s the truth: he had six years in power\u2014six years in power\u2014and, deep down, when he looks in the mirror each morning, he knows that he messed it up and he blew it big time. That\u2019s what he did. Once again, as I said, that speech, as I\u2019ve said before, illustrated Chris Hipkins: he is the arsonist that returns to the scene of the fire that he lit, and then he tries to criticise us as a fire brigade putting it out\u2014and that\u2019s exactly what happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s remind New Zealanders as to the firestorm that Chris Hipkins and Labour created, because here\u2019s the record\u2014here\u2019s the record. They hired 18,000 more public servants, and yet they delivered worse results. I\u2019ve got to tell you that that\u2019s a special and a unique skill set to be able to deliver that. He increased Government spending by 84\u00A0percent, and he taxed everyone a lot more in the process. He borrowed more. We went from $5 billion to almost $100 billion worth of debt. We\u2019re now paying $9 billion in interest payments, and that\u2019s $9 billion we don\u2019t have to spend on schools and hospitals and infrastructure, and on our kids in New Zealand. Inflation hit a 30-year high, interest rates went right through the roof, we\u2019ve had the economy in recession for four of the last five quarters, and we\u2019ve got Kiwis losing their jobs and getting out of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got to say, regardless of the leader of the Labour Party and regardless of the finance spokesperson, it\u2019s the same economic strategy and plan, and it\u2019s pretty simple: it\u2019s spend more, it\u2019s borrow more, it\u2019s tax more, and it\u2019s worse outcomes. That\u2019s what it\u2019s going to be. The problem with that is that it\u2019s pain and suffering for everyday New Zealanders\u2014that is what the legacy of the Labour Government will be. New Zealanders are having to battle with high inflation, high interest rates, economic recession, and losing their jobs\u2014losing their jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ESo I want to say that it should have been a much shorter speech. It should have been much, much shorter. It should have just been two words\u2014just two words\u2014long, and the two words should have been \u201CThank you.\u201D It should have been \u201CThank you, coalition Government, and thank you, Nicola Willis.\u201D\u2014\u201CThank you, Nicola Willis and coalition Government, for putting out the fire. Thank you for cleaning up my ungodly mess. Well done, coalition Government.\u201D That would have sufficed, and that\u2019s all it needed to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019ve got to say, wasn\u2019t that a brilliant Budget\u2014a brilliant Budget\u2014from Nicola Willis? I\u2019ve got to say that if the last few years have shown us anything, it\u2019s actually that we need a caring, intelligent, thoughtful, hard-working finance Minister, and thank goodness we\u2019ve got one in Nicola Willis\u2014an outstanding finance Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EOur economic plan is very simple, with this Government. It\u2019s about rebuilding the economy so that we can get rid of inflation and reduce the cost of living; it\u2019s about restoring law and order so that Kiwis feel safe in their homes, their businesses, and their communities; and it\u2019s about making sure we deliver better public services on education and healthcare. That is how we get New Zealand back on track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EBut despite all the wittering we heard from Chris Hipkins and Labour, do you think they\u2019re actually interested in restoring and rebuilding our economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226465c336a16b47cb88f31c377d36b046\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5bcb91c29994e828f9af770698025d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Do they support fast-track legislation so that we can actually get things done in this country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b4d314cd25043e3ab557f8c32efd3e8\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65bcd78990041758f02dbfd70f0337c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. After spending $1.2 billion, do you think they\u2019ve fixed three waters? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c329eefb02f4fbda6094cc702793a71\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215009e79c320413dbb6ea7a957f74d71\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Do they support roads of national significance and regional significance? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc588aff57d44d79916fae6aba373c09\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feebf29600324d75af186a329e1926f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Do they support reversing the oil and gas ban so we\u2019ve got energy security? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614905be18ee4f4a9bcbc298ac22832a\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022639785020ef04b06bf6b4cf2dafb1d27\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Do you think they support giving working Kiwis\u2014the people they used to care about\u2014tax relief? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f71b1d30e9ef48beb461717f9669e029\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228203aa6dd6fa418abb1195d9e03c2211\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014absolutely not. Now, we have more wittering from Labour and from Chris Hipkins, but do you think they\u2019re interested in restoring law and order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfbfa2e5562e4f8da638bd1f0acaf925\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb3556252414b0c8320256fda3852fa\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Do they want to abolish the prisoner reduction target? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e657318cad5341a49b14208dabfac882\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a73faa81f954c6e85cb2d492bd6988e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Do they want to give more powers to police to go after our gangs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276763c2c1476447c8453f4f2039b693c\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225facb481367f45cb8fed1b801b72afef\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Do they support cracking down on youth offending? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222a6aadbf41e448da0f37f4643dbe932\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a0abbc669344fcb848011993e89f1d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Do they support three strikes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f7b37ba662f4687ba6f1964ab6402e6\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2227c99f6b46afb08a5fc2f7a3108d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014they didn\u2019t. That\u2019s right\u2014they didn\u2019t do that. I\u2019ve got to say that after all that wittering\u2014again, a long speech, a sad speech, from Chris Hipkins\u2014do you think they\u2019re actually interested in delivering better public services? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa2bafcc3c7b4b428384ab625fc1b72a\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f67afb957d64ac7b43499a479847418\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, of course not\u2014of course not. Do you think they supported banning the mobile phones in schools? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022025156e2b65e49a6bf07bf01b8982459\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a0acfea25a449f0b33bb57fec50dbb8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Great idea\u2014don\u2019t know why. Do you think they support having an hour of maths, an hour of reading, and an hour of writing in our primary and intermediate schools? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296422fb5132b4f878e126d8fc9e100ee\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255d2c5ee133b418481c293718ce11b1e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Do you think they support delivering structured literacy so our kids can learn to read? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a566afb6ff524708a996d9dd88af0af8\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022804a3ab937ac458ea84cac8750d7fc3c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Definitely not\u2014no. No\u2014no way. No way. Do you think they support rights and responsibilities in welfare? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac3b7d344aba4c1985d18b00a21b34e8\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f4427184b3e4cee9179897f8b99e9b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, they don\u2019t do that. Do they deliver better health outcomes for M\u0101ori? They definitely didn\u2019t do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca8e6593bfa44043bb9f60bb099c7b50\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a29bbdef05f4b15bd5e00b5f0d11c60\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, and do they fund Pharmac\u2019s medicines in the Budget properly? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a078eb3524ba4a94b61a1fafc94d659e\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cccfa9d323a43968a4abf52d8728d7e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Definitely not. Do you think they got more security into our emergency departments? Shane Reti did that in a couple of weeks\u2014yeah, Shane got it in there\u2014and do you think they support public sector reform? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7be4a87df7943e78b97f7955bd0e055\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244554d4cb8e942a4b723d839292dcea7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. So not one\u2014not one\u2014initiative do they support to make sure they\u2019d rebuild the economy, restore law and order, and deliver better health and education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EBut this Budget had three key objectives. The first was to cut the wasteful spending and the dumb programmes, the second was to invest in the front-line services that Kiwis value and need the most, and the third was to deliver tax relief to the squeezed middle. So I\u2019ve got to say to you that this is a responsible Budget. This is a careful Budget. This is a Budget for the squeezed middle and it is a Budget for difficult times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EIt is a Budget under pressure, and I\u2019ve got to tell you, under pressure makes diamonds. Isn\u2019t it a Budget that Nicola Willis did such a great job with, delivering so much for the New Zealand people? Look what\u2019s being delivered\u2014look what\u2019s being delivered. There is more money for health, there is more money for education, there is more money for disability services, there\u2019s more money for police, there\u2019s more money for corrections, and there\u2019s more money for defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EAbove all, I have to say that this is a good Budget because we are keeping our word and our promise to New Zealanders. Nicola Willis said it, but after 14 long years, this Government is delivering personal income tax relief to working Kiwis. It is fiscally neutral tax relief funded from savings and new revenue measures\u2014exactly as we promised\u2014within the spending limits that we campaigned on. From 31 July, 94 percent\u201494 percent\u2014of all New Zealand households are going to receive some tax relief from this year\u2019s Budget. That\u2019s right\u2014up to $102 for an average-income household, who may well then be eligible for up to another $150 of FamilyBoost support to offset early childhood education expenses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EThis is great news. It\u2019s great news for the squeezed middle, those low and middle income working families\u2014the folk that Labour purported to care about, but don\u2019t any more\u2014battling to get through from pay cheque to pay cheque, who actually are going to benefit from tax relief in this year\u2019s Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ESo whatever the conditions, whoever is the leader, let\u2019s just be clear: it\u2019s more of the same from Labour: more spending, more tax, more borrowing, and worse outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ENow, you heard it from Nicola Willis that our priority is to rebuild the economy, and this is a Budget that delivers on that objective. It\u2019s a Budget that charts a pathway back to surplus, it\u2019s a Budget with a plan to get the debt down, and it\u2019s a Budget that shows that inflation is going to come down. We want it below 3 percent by the end of the year. We\u2019ll have interest rates cuts after that so we can get the show on the road and get the country growing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got to say that it is a Budget that when I talk with those families that I\u2019ve sat with at budgeting services who are risk of losing their homes because of high mortgages and because of high inflation and because of ridiculous spending\u2014they\u2019re going to really appreciate that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s a Budget, when I meet the families out in foodbanks who actually never imagined they\u2019d be there and they\u2019re there in record numbers because they can\u2019t afford the groceries, because of the mismanagement from the previous Government\u2014they\u2019re going to love this Budget; they\u2019re going to love it. This is a Budget that actually also creates the foundations for further economic growth. That\u2019s what it does\u2014economic growth to be created so we can end Labour\u2019s recession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EWe said it before but we are going to be an infrastructure Government. We are going to have world-class, modern, reliable infrastructure in this country because we are going to get Kiwis moving and we\u2019re going to get this economy growing again. That\u2019s what it\u2019s about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a lot of money for fantastic new roads of national significance. And we know the power of roads. We\u2019ve seen great roads: the Waikato Expressway, the K\u0101piti Expressway, P\u016Bhoi to Warkworth\u2014fantastic roads. But, of course, Labour and the Greens don\u2019t like roads. I don\u2019t think they even like tunnels\u2014that\u2019s the reality of it. But, more importantly, they don\u2019t like building anything\u2014they don\u2019t like building anything. Do you think they actually built Auckland light rail? No. Do you think they got Wellington moving? No. Do you think they solved three waters with $1.2\u00A0billion of taxpayers\u2019 money? No, they didn\u2019t\u2014no, they didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EWell, here\u2019s the deal. We\u2019re going to get things done in this country because this is a coalition Government that knows how to build things and get things done. We want to see more wind farms. We want to see more solar farms. We want to see more geothermal. We want to see more natural gas. And so there\u2019s going to be more homes, there\u2019s going to be more businesses, and there\u2019s going to be more infrastructure\u2014more of everything that we need to get this show on the road and get this country growing again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI want to put a serious challenge to the Labour Party and to the Green Party and just say very simply that if you cared about housing affordability\u2014if you genuinely cared about it\u2014if you genuinely cared about climate change, and if you cared about energy independence, rather than importing coal from Indonesia, you would back these reforms. You honestly would. You would back these reforms if you cared about those things. But you don\u2019t want to get anything done in this country, and you just want to keep playing student politics. Well, we are serious people on this side, and we are seriously going to get things done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ENow, I have to say, this is a Budget that is about driving better value from every dollar that we spend. And you heard great examples, from Nicola Willis, that we spend on behalf of taxpayers and we will spend carefully and responsibly and with good discipline\u2014that\u2019s what it\u2019s about. We know it\u2019s not just how much you spend but it\u2019s actually how you spend it and, importantly, what results and outcomes are delivered. That\u2019s what matters to the New Zealand people\u2014that\u2019s what matters to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ESo I want us to take law and order, because we have some great Ministers doing amazing things to get more cops on the beat, to make sure we get more corrections officers, more funding for rehabilitation services, more consequences for serious youth offenders. Cracking down on our gangs\u2014that\u2019s what they\u2019re doing. And we\u2019re able to do that because we saved hundreds of millions of dollars in savings to actually support our fight to restore law and order. That\u2019s what we did. So we\u2019re targeting the programmes\u2014the actual programmes\u2014that work, and we\u2019re shifting money from the back-office bureaucracy out to the front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EAnd that means that we can make some real choices\u2014real choices\u2014in law and order, things like actually expanding rehabilitation services to remand prisoners. These are people with substance abuse and serious trauma in their life, and that\u2019s going to be a success story because of the savings that have been made by this Government to support those front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EWe can take education, because, I\u2019ve got to tell you, Erica Stanford is doing a great job fighting for the future of our kids and making sure they get the education they need. She\u2019s done an incredible job moving hundreds of millions of dollars from the back office of the Ministry of Education out to the front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got nearly $1.5 billion in this Budget to fund and build new classrooms and maintain existing ones\u2014well done\u2014$67 million to support structured literacy so we teach our kids the same way, every day, how to read and how to write. We know it from the Labour side. We heard it this week, didn\u2019t we, from Jan Tinetti that they don\u2019t like structured literacy. No they don\u2019t like it\u2014they don\u2019t like it. And if they could just get past the ideology and actually take an evidence-based approach to education, I\u2019m telling you right now, the kids of New Zealand would be reading better, and the future would look so much brighter, wouldn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EAnd I have to say, evidence in education kind of matters. It really matters because, actually, when you look at it, the evidence from Chris Hipkins\u2019 time as education Minister for five years in the last Government is pretty bad. Half the kids show up at high school not ready to go. They don\u2019t know the basics well enough. Over half the kids aren\u2019t attending school 90 percent of the time\u2014incredible. And, actually, we just lost half a decade with Chris Hipkins as education Minister where nothing was achieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI want to talk quickly about health in the time that I\u2019ve got, because we are going to have to fix the healthcare system too\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to do. Labour spent truckloads, didn\u2019t they? They spent truckloads. They restructured the healthcare system, they moved the bureaucracy around, and they shuffled paper and people. But, at the end of the day, what have we got to show for it? What have we got to show for it? Nothing. Nothing\u2014that\u2019s right. We\u2019ve got increased wait times for emergency departments, and we\u2019ve got increased wait times for first specialist appointments and elective surgeries. We\u2019ve got less kids being immunised under the age of two, so they\u2019re not protected, and we\u2019re going to fix it. And we\u2019re going to have Dr Shane Reti shake it up, and that\u2019s what he\u2019s going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EAnd that\u2019s why we\u2019ve brought back targets; that\u2019s why we\u2019re changing the leadership. And, in this year\u2019s Budget, we are going to make big investments that are focused on the front line\u2014billions of dollars to health to fund nurses and doctors so that Kiwis can get those services when they\u2019re unwell and when they need it. So $1.8 billion to lock in permanent funding for Pharmac after Labour put those medicines at risk for everyday Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got to say, it\u2019s about the little things too, right? It\u2019s about the little things. The $24\u00A0million going to Gumboot Friday to help 15,000 kids\u201415,000 kids who desperately need those free counselling sessions\u2014so that they can move forward with their lives and deal with their mental health challenges. We are all proud of that commitment on this side\u2014we are proud of that commitment. So what did Labour say about that? Oh, they said it was tin-pot politics. They said it was disturbing. They said it diminished trust in the democratic process. Well, here is what I think erodes trust in the democratic process: it\u2019s a useless previous Government that didn\u2019t deliver anything for New Zealanders. That\u2019s what erodes trust in the democratic process. That\u2019s what does it. What Labour didn\u2019t learn in six years was that Kiwis don\u2019t just want activity; they want achievement, they want delivery, and they want a Government to get things done, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI have to say, I want to thank our coalition partners, who have worked incredibly hard on this Budget\u2014incredibly hard. David Seymour and the ACT Party\u2014we have a Minister who actually gets that red tape is creating our obstruction economy, and he gets the impact that charter schools are going to have and the difference they\u2019re going to make for kids across New Zealand. And it\u2019s great to see those things funded in this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EAnd we\u2019ve got Winston Peters and New Zealand First. And I want to say thank you for what they\u2019ve done as well, because we finally have a foreign Minister, now, who\u2019s out there championing for New Zealand on the world stage after three years of Labour sitting here at home and sitting on their hands. And New Zealand First believe in economic development\u2014they do. And that\u2019s why we\u2019re seeing a regional infrastructure fund that\u2019s going to deal with things like flood protection. We\u2019re seeing them make sure that they accelerate fast-track consenting so we can get things done. So I want to say thank you to our partners there as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EWell, I have to say, this is a very good Budget. It is a very good Budget from a very good finance Minister, Nicola Willis. And we are so proud of her\u2014we are so proud of Nicola Willis. And, I\u2019m telling you, New Zealand is damn lucky to have her in this role, and she is an excellent finance Minister, and we just saw that today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EThis is a careful Budget. This is a Budget for the squeezed middle. This is a Budget for difficult times. And it\u2019s a Budget that, despite the mess and the difficult economic conditions that we\u2019ve inherited from the previous Government, actually has still found a way to spend more money on health, more money on education, and more money on law and order. And those are the things that New Zealanders care about. Those are the things that New Zealanders want us to deliver for them. So it is a Budget that is actually for all those Kiwis and all those families who\u2019ve had to tighten their belts over the last couple of years, all those businesses that have done the same thing, and now they have a Government, with good financial management, tightening its own belt as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ECan I just say in closing, this is a Budget that starts to restore the promise of New Zealand, and that promise is pretty simple: it\u2019s that if you\u2019re prepared to work hard in the best country on planet Earth, you deserve and should be able to get ahead. So I just say to you, this is a Budget that is going to start to get New Zealand back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022460b988db94242b0b27db8cd0be8bc9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022460b988db94242b0b27db8cd0be8bc9d\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Today, the coalition Government showed us their true colours. It\u2019s a mean and nasty Budget. That\u2019s what it is. They had the choice to be bold and invest in our people and our planet, but instead they have actively undermined our collective ability to support each other and restore Papat\u016B\u0101nuku. This is a cynical Budget that serves mostly the short-term interests of a few and ignores the long-term challenges that we all face in Aotearoa. The Government has chosen to preserve poverty and remain a not-so-innocent bystander to the unfolding climate crisis with an incredibly unambitious Budget for Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe have everything we need in Aotearoa to make sure everyone\u2014everyone\u2014can live in dignity. There is enough to make sure everyone\u2014everyone\u2014has a warm, dry, affordable, accessible home, food on the table, and enough money left over at the end of the week to not worry about the power bill. And we have everything we need to restore our\u00A0living systems, our biodiversity, and take climate action that our mokopuna will be proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe Government could have chosen to rebalance how we share the benefits of this country\u2019s success, shifting the tax burden from those who earn the least and making sure that those accumulating huge wealth pay their fair share\u2014just their fair share. It could have. This Government could have put in place an income guarantee so that, no matter what, everyone has what they need to live a quality life\u2014everyone. It could\u2019ve given everyone free dental care\u2014it could have\u2014and yet the Government has prioritised trickle-down tax cuts for landlords. We see who they are governing for; it is for their uber-wealthy mates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EBut the Greens are here for the many and not just the few. We are here for Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and we are here for Papat\u016B\u0101nuku. M\u014D te mana o te Tiriti, m\u014D te oranga o te taiao, m\u014D ng\u0101 t\u016Bmanako o ng\u0101 Tamariki me ng\u0101 mokopuna. [For the mana of the Treaty, for the welfare of the environment, for the aspirations of our children and our grandchildren.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EIt is plain to see in today\u2019s Budget that the coalition Government simply does not care about environmental impact, does not care about everything that sustains us\u2014our forests, our beaches, our rivers\u2014and that mean so much to all of us as citizens, as people of Aotearoa. They have gone and neglected them completely in this Budget. That is a choice this Government made. Four thousand\u20144,000\u2014of our native species are threatened with extinction, and yet there is no new funding to protect them. It is a tragic truth that based on the choices that Government has made in this Budget, our taonga indigenous native species are a step closer to extinction\u2014for shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThey are cutting the conservation budget\u2014cutting it. The Department of Conservation manages a third of our country\u2019s whenua, and yet funding is being cut in the Government\u2019s relentless, ideologically driven push to reduce public spending, regardless of its consequences. Initiatives that protect the environment have been gutted to free up money for tax cuts, and the waste disposal levy is being hijacked for use in disaster response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESixty-three thousand\u201463,000\u2014tamariki woke up in poverty this morning in Aotearoa. Now, this Budget could\u2019ve changed that, could have ended children living in poverty in this country. But this Budget will not do that. The Child Poverty Report, a whopping four whole pages\u2014that\u2019s right, a whopping four whole pages is the Child Poverty Report\u2014is clear that this Budget will see child poverty flat-line. That\u2019s what this Government chose. They chose for child poverty to flat-line\u2014not to eliminate it, not even to lessen it, but to just accept it as it keeps going. For shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThis Government could have invested in many more public houses so that every single child in Aotearoa can thrive. It could have lifted the incomes of the people who need it the most, those who are relying on our social safety net. But the Government has chosen not to make that vision a reality. A warm, dry home\u2014pretty simple\u2014is the foundation of a good life, and the Government\u2019s choices in today\u2019s Budget are undermining that foundation, bulldozing the basic needs of our communities. They have taken funding away from emergency housing. They have gutted the funding for the homelessness services and the Homelessness Action Plan. They have stopped the plan to contract new transitional housing places for rangatahi\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219492a4f5726419c8479dd75d1741dd3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: For young people\u2014yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c04fc5c725bc4ff68494db704ba96116\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014wait\u2014they have stopped the funding and have pulled back some of the previously granted funding for youth and rangatahi transitional housing. The cruelness and the nastiness of that. The cruelness and the nastiness of pulling away funding from the very people\u2014the very people\u2014who need it the most. What is youth and rangatahi housing if not crime prevention, if not health services, if not education services? They have gutted funding for housing\u2014for M\u0101ori housing, for public housing, for youth transitional housing\u2014and they\u2019re building more prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWhat is a Budget, if not cruel and nasty, if it takes that funding away from the very people\u2014the very people\u2014who are struggling the most and instead puts it towards landlords\u2014to landlords? This Government has slashed $40 million from the fund that was supposed to support iwi and hap\u016B to build M\u0101ori housing. It was in the last Government, and I have always commended this, that finally\u2014 finally\u2014we got to see M\u0101ori housing, M\u0101ori-led housing, which we know is one of the key ways to ensure that M\u0101ori, disproportionately represented among those who are homeless, those who do not own a home, those who do not have housing stability\u2014has to be led by M\u0101ori housing. They are slashing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo this Government wonders why so many people march in the streets, this morning and many other mornings, against this Government\u2019s onslaught against Te Tiriti and against wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori? They should not be surprised. This is not a theoretical constitutional argument. This is a Government that disempowers te iwi M\u0101ori and takes back funding that was supposed to build new homes. And what are they doing with that money instead? They are giving tax cuts to landlords\u2014the same landlords who they are empowering to evict tenants more easily. So not just a whole lot more billions but a whole lot more power from those who have been denied their power and giving more power to those who already had enough. That is the cruel and nasty Budget that this Government is announcing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThis Government has chosen to make homes colder and more expensive to heat. They have chosen to cut $178 million from the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority\u2014EECA\u2014which funded things like the hugely successful Warmer Kiwi Homes programme. They have cut funding specifically for the outreach programme to target hard-to-reach households and for efficient hot-water systems that would have lowered the cost and the burden on the electricity grid that they seem to be so concerned about. Remember a few weeks ago when the Government said we were going to have power cuts on a cold morning? Well, today, they have cut the funding to exactly the work that would have prevented this from happening. Their beloved power grid\u2014they\u2019re cutting the funding to help take the pressure off it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThis Budget is vandalism. And, speaking of vandalism, this Government has slashed and burned almost all climate and environmentally minded policy while pouring coal and oil and gas over the roaring climate-crisis fire. That\u2019s what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EToday\u2019s Budget has seen funding from almost every major programme in the emissions reduction plan absolutely gutted. M\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori - based approaches to agricultural emissions reduction\u2014gutted. Agricultural emissions pricing policy work\u2014gone. The development of a circular economy and bio-economy strategy\u2014cut. The Community Renewable Energy Fund\u2014slashed. The just transitions work programme\u2014gone. The Transport Choices programme to reduce vehicle kilometres travelled\u2014gone. Public transport workforce sustainability funding\u2014but who needs bus drivers if you\u2019re also actively encouraging people not to catch buses? So I get where this Government is coming from with their vandalism towards our climate and our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Finance says she expects the emissions trading scheme to play a bigger role, but they\u2019re even cutting the funding for that. The essential support for market governance work is gone. Now, that is opening the door for carbon-credit cowboys to ride on in. What remains of climate action funding is not nearly enough to meet the scale of the climate crisis\u2014not nearly enough. That is the short-term, narrow-minded cruelty and vandalism of this Budget for our people today and for generations to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Climate Change needs to front up and explain how big a chasm his Government has created in the emissions budgets that it signed up to and how they plan to make up for that. Greenhouse gas figures released by Stats New Zealand today, showing further decreases in emissions, are proof that the green initiatives of the last two terms were working. The green initiatives of the last two terms were finally getting us in the direction that this country needs to head in. And I\u2019m really not amused by the comedy that that side\u2014that Government\u2014thinks climate change is. They\u2019re amused. But, yeah, show yourselves. This Government is showing itself, showing itself for the disregard that it treats our generations and future generations. So keep it going\u2014keep it going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EGreenhouse gas figures released by Stats New Zealand today\u2014oh, I\u2019m repeating a paragraph, but it\u2019s worth repeating because those are the initiatives that the Greens have worked on for the past two terms. And Government investment in decarbonising industry, together with a higher carbon price, drove the reduction in industrial emissions, while the Clean Car Discount made a massive dent in our overall emissions\u2014a massive dent\u2014stuff that was actually starting to work. When it comes to climate change, Governments are defined by their choices, and this one is choosing to bury its head in coal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe single most important thing that this Budget has shown us is that we must make this a one-term Government. Their visionless, cynical, cruel approach cannot last. We must be bold and loud about the fact that Government can and must make better choices. Governments can choose to end poverty, to fight climate change, to protect Papat\u016B\u0101nuku. This Government has shown that they will not make those choices. We can create an Aotearoa that all of us deserve. I want everyone who cares for our people and our planet to know that every day\u2014every single day\u2014the Greens will stand up in this Whare to show that a better Aotearoa is possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo we say to every parent and wh\u0101nau who skips a meal so their tamariki can eat, to every student shivering through winter without the means to turn the heater on, to every teacher and nurse and bus driver working too long for too little pay to look after our communities: we see you, we hear you, and we will always fight for you in these halls of power. And just as we will fight for you, we need our people to join in with the struggle. Make yourselves heard, be loud, and be strong. The destructive and cynical things this Government is choosing to do are not inevitable. They do not need to happen. We can choose to improve everyone\u2019s lives by changing the rules and rebalancing the way that we share wealth and power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThis Budget will leave people out in the cold and leave our planet to burn as emissions rise and our window of opportunity to combat climate change closes. Aotearoa can do better. We deserve better. We have enough to go around to ensure everyone has food to eat alongside a warm place to call home. We can and must choose to prioritise people and planet over the profit-thirsty industry interests that seem to have hijacked the direction of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI tried to have a look in this Budget for anything, and I actually feel aroha for Minister Karen Chhour, who I know is serious about her work to prevent violence. If anyone on the Government benches can help me out, I couldn\u2019t find a single new initiative for family violence and sexual violence prevention funding. I looked in Justice, Corrections, Ministry of Social Development, Police, Public Service, Health, Education\u2014I couldn\u2019t find anything. And I know that that is an area that was desperately in need of more funding\u2014desperately in need of more funding. You\u2019re slashing housing, public housing, rangatahi housing, M\u0101ori housing. That\u2019s violence prevention. When people have a home, when people have incomes, and when communities are well and strong, we need to understand that is violence prevention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EBut I haven\u2019t even seen any more funding for the kaupapa M\u0101ori - led initiatives who have been begging for more and more funding for a long time. The evidence is there. The evidence is there about what works over a generation when it comes to the prevention of violence. I feel sad for Minister Chhour. I feel aroha for all of the stakeholders, all of the front-line workers, victims, and those who must have support to stop using violence. I feel sad for the trajectory of that mahi, and I am calling that out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI also want to say, again, the Jobs for Nature funding, the impact on rangatahi in the communities who are finally feeling connected to looking after their whenua and their rivers; the joy on their faces, the sense of purpose, the sense of connection not just to their living systems but to their culture\u2014incredibly important mahi. I\u2019m so disappointed but not surprised that this Government does not care about the good work that had finally started happening and has not found any hope to be able to fund it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThese are choices\u2014they\u2019re all choices. We should never allow for any Government to pretend like we cannot afford to end poverty, like we cannot afford to end homelessness. We can. We just have to make those choices. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002299f83df4a2f3490db2c76bb63a5b746d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299f83df4a2f3490db2c76bb63a5b746d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. You know, I gotta tell you, every time I hear Marama Davidson, I appreciate and miss James Shaw just a little bit more. Someone should call the physics department, because she actually managed to slow down time\u2014the last five minutes of her speech felt like about 15. We\u2019re here for the serious business of bringing down a Budget, and I\u2019d like to acknowledge my fellow coalition leaders Winston Peters and Christopher Luxon; my fellow Budget Ministers and associate finance Ministers Chris Bishop and Shane Jones, and, of course, Nicola Willis, who I\u2019ve watched work very hard to bring down her first Budget; and, most of all, my colleagues the Hon Brooke van Velden, fellow ACT Party Ministers, and parliamentarians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis is a very important day. It\u2019s an important day for New Zealand because finally\u2014finally\u2014there are some adults back in the Budget room. I lead a party that campaigned on doing three things: number one, to cut the waste; number two, to use the cuts in waste to cut the taxes levied on hard-working New Zealanders; and number three, to put more money into effective services and justice and defence and health and education and infrastructure. Today, we stand here bringing down a Budget that cuts the waste, that cuts the taxes, and puts more money into justice and defence and health and education and infrastructure, and builds foundations for growth for this country. That\u2019s what I would call a result. I know you\u2019re not supposed to speak this way\u2014it sounds a bit Venezuelan\u2014but I think that people who voted for ACT got fantastic value for money. It\u2019s actually free to vote for us, and we\u2019ve already saved you hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars. Is that a good deal or what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis Budget is going to mean that people who have been watching the previous Government do less and less with more and more, just as they had to tighten their belts, can finally see a Government that is in tune with them. This Budget is not flashy. It happens against a backdrop where things are grim. I was talking to a principal of a medium-sized accounting firm the other day, and he told me many stories about what it\u2019s like for businesses, because accountants usually see what\u2019s happening in the economy first\u2014them and real estate agents. He told me about a man who had run a successful business: he\u2019d had 40 people working for him, and in the downturn of the last two years, he\u2019d got to three people. He had sold his bed to pay the outstanding wages of those last three people before he moved to Australia. People know how grim it is out there, but they can also have some hope from the fact that we now have a Government that is not going to borrow and spend and drive more and more inflation that only makes it harder for people to meet their bills and get by. That\u2019s the difference that we\u2019re making here, and this allows people in positions like that to pay less tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EYou know, I\u2019m always astonished when I hear people in the Opposition in the media\u2014sometimes I wonder if I repeated myself\u2014who say we\u2019re \u201Cspending money on tax cuts\u201D. Well, let\u2019s just take this opportunity to explain very briefly how it works and doesn\u2019t work. The Government can\u2019t spend money it doesn\u2019t have. Now, I know the Labour Party would see that as a new concept, but the Government can\u2019t spend money on tax cuts, because tax by definition is how it gets money in the first place. So when we say that we\u2019re cutting taxes, that is not spending\u2014we are taking less of people\u2019s money in the first place. I\u2019m particularly proud of ACT, on behalf of renters and landlords alike, that we are providing relief by returning mortgage interest deductibility\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI want to talk to the people who present this as some sort of radical concept as if it is not going back to the way things were in\u2014you know, ages ago\u2014like 2021. Income tax is levied on income, and income is a business or an activity\u2019s revenue minus its expenses, and interest is a legitimate expense. So when you\u2019re in business, you can deduct your interest costs from your tax bill. The radical, crazy thing was when Jacinda Ardern came out and said, \u201CI\u2019m going to tilt the market towards first-home buyers.\u201D What happened, when she put more tax on landlords, is that rents went up $200 in three years, and the thing about rents is they are usually paid by people who don\u2019t own their own house, which means that they are, by definition, a first-home buyer. We are taking that tax off landlords so renters will pay less rent so they have more chance of getting by without $200 increases in rent so they can save a deposit and build their first home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019re going to take less money out of people\u2019s PAYE. You know, the number one leaflet that recruits people to the ACT Party is not anything that we\u2019ve ever produced. I know the IRD is not supposed to be political, but they\u2019ve got us a lot of supporters over the years, because the number one recruitment brochure for the ACT Party is a young person\u2019s first PAYE slip. And they send them to me on social media\u2014they say, \u201CFar out! I always thought you guys were a bit crazy, but now I see what you\u2019re saying. Can I sign up?\u201D I\u2019ve signed up hundreds of them. Well, maybe we are going to harm ourselves slightly because people will be paying just a little bit less tax\u2014that average income household is going to pay up to $103 less tax a fortnight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI know there\u2019s people like Barbara Edmonds, I know there\u2019s people like Chris Hipkins\u2014people that earn $163,000 a year\u2014they say, \u201COh, that\u2019s not much.\u201D In fact, you know, I almost fell out of my seat. I need to talk to Brooke van Velden\u2014I\u2019ve got a health and safety at work issue! I nearly injured myself because Chris Hipkins appeared to be saying that the Government\u2019s not cutting tax enough, and I wasn\u2019t sure what to make of the situation. But what I can say is that we are cutting taxes in a responsible way by less than we are cutting spending, so we also get back to balance; so we also take inflation out of the economy; so we also allow the Reserve Bank to take pressure off mortgage rates, take pressure off interest rates, and allow Kiwis to have a bit more money left at the end of the fortnight. That\u2019s what our tax policy is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got to say I\u2019m proud of what ACT\u2019s Ministers have been doing right across the board. Workplace relations and safety: Brooke van Velden has absolutely taken a scythe to her own department\u2019s waste, and you\u2019ll hear from her in days to come just how much she\u2019s managed to save in the Department of Internal Affairs. Yeah, it\u2019s a bit of a confusing thing for some people, because most Ministers are out there competing to see how much more taxpayer money they can spend compared with the people next door to them. But ACT Ministers, for the most part, are competing to see how much taxpayer money they can save in their own departments. And what Brooke van Velden has done by cancelling the fair pay agreements\u2014well, actually, that has multiple, multiple benefits because we don\u2019t have to waste our time making national awards like it\u2019s the 1970s or, actually, the 1890s again. But it also saved, I think, something like $65 million. She\u2019s also saved money in the Department of Internal Affairs. Karen Chhour will be telling you, in time to come, how much she\u2019s managed to save in K\u0101inga Ora, and it was really interesting to hear Marama Davidson be so disingenuous saying that she feels aroha for Karen Chhour. Well, I can tell you on this side of the House\u2014I can say in full sincerity\u2014we feel aroha for Karen Chhour. I\u2019m not so sure people over there have lately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut the other revealing thing about what Marama Davidson said is she felt sorry for Karen Chhour, because she didn\u2019t have any extra money. That is an insight\u2014an insight into the mind of Marama Davidson and the Green Party. They think the only way to get more results is to spend more money. This Government is all about proving that, actually, throwing money at every problem doesn\u2019t solve them. Actually, that\u2019s not true. The previous Government was a giant, expensive $100 billion experiment, proving once and for all that throwing money at every problem does not solve them. That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo what Karen Chhour has done is some amazing things. In Oranga Tamariki facilities, she is introducing uniforms for the staff. Now, people think, \u201CHang on\u2014hang on, surely not\u201D. This is the state under Labour\u2014Oranga Tamariki was run by people who didn\u2019t even have the pride, the respect, and the order and discipline to wear a uniform. You know, McDonald\u2019s can do it; Warehouse Stationery can do it. But Oranga Tamariki, the department responsible for looking after the most vulnerable children in New Zealand, didn\u2019t even have uniforms\u2014it doesn\u2019t cost much. But actually, by introducing some basic rules and discipline, she\u2019s introduced locks on a few doors, which turns out to be cheaper than buying KFC to get the kids down when they escape on to the roof. Right across the board, Karen Chhour is doing more with less and doing it smarter. It\u2019s just such a shame that Marama Davidson didn\u2019t have the same ideas when she had a chance when she was in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIn fact, I\u2019ve got to say, I look at these opposition MPs and I thought\u2014I see Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick. She says, \u201CI have great hope. I have dreams. We\u2019ve got to change the world and make it better.\u201D She was in Government six months ago. They had six years to do it, and they made everything worse. It\u2019s like a kind of amnesia. I\u2019m looking up through the beautiful glass ceiling of this Chamber trying to find those flying saucers that dropped them off on this planet, because I don\u2019t think they\u2019ve been here with us on Earth in recent times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI look at Andrew Hoggard and the savings that he is making in the Ministry of Primary Industries while keeping us prepared for biosecurity threats. I look at Nicole McKee and what she is doing to get faster justice with smarter processes and investments in vital infrastructure like courthouses, because even the ACT Party thinks that having some decent courthouses and getting people fast justice is something that the Government should absolutely do and do well. That is our Minister for Courts, and she\u2019s also getting rid of the Byzantine regulation that holds back people who just want to safely use firearms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe also have a Minister for Regulation, because, fundamentally, this Government needs to create some foundations for growth. If I was to ask how we are going to ensure the foundations for growth, what it\u2019s going to depend upon is getting the four things that make a country really fly right. We need to spend less time tied up in rules and regulations and more time being productive. I heard, just last week, that someone at an early childhood centre was actually told by the Ministry of Education that they had to wash nappies at 60 degrees centigrade\u2014not 59, not 61\u201460 degrees centigrade. The fact that that is even possible tells you of the problems that we have across our economy, and that is why very soon the Ministry for Regulation, funded in this Budget, will commence the first sector review into early childhood education. Then we\u2019re going to get into animal and veterinary products and medicines being imported nine years behind the rest of the world. Then we\u2019re going to do finance. Then we\u2019re going to do medical licensing. We\u2019re going to deal with the red tape and the regulation that our Prime Minister calls the \u201Cfoundations of obstruction economy\u201D. We\u2019re sweeping them away and replacing them with foundations for growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe other thing that you need, besides actually having some time to do some work as an economy that wants to grow\u2014and by the way, where are Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori? We talk about work. They actually forgot to vote against the \u201CWhite people\u2019s Budget\u201D, the \u201CWhite people\u2019s Budget\u201D that is brought about by a Cabinet of 20 that has eight M\u0101ori members. Kia ora, Nicole McKee. Kia ora, Winston Peters. Kia ora, Shane. Kia ora, Casey Costello. Kia ora, Shane Reti. Kia ora, Tama Potaka. Our Cabinet, our Government\u2014ko David Seymour ahau. Our Government\u2014our Government is 40 percent M\u0101ori, twice as much as the rest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut actually there\u2019s a bigger error in what Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori say. You know what? It\u2019s true that our Government\u2019s 40 percent M\u0101ori, but it shouldn\u2019t matter. It shouldn\u2019t matter if you\u2019re black, white, Cuban, or Asian. It doesn\u2019t matter if your ancestors sailed here 1,000\u00A0years ago, like some of mine, or just got off a plane at Auckland Airport this morning to begin their journey. As New Zealanders in the 21st century, we are all New Zealanders. I was talking about productivity growth, and I just noticed the M\u0101ori Party seats, and that got me thinking about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ELet me come back on to the topic. The second thing that you need, no matter what your ethnic background is, is infrastructure. A plumber that can do five jobs in a day is more productive than one that does three jobs and spends a whole lot of time sitting in traffic. A factory that breaks down and gets the repair van out there so the workers can keep working at that time is a lot more productive than one that has to wait a day for the parts to arrive. A tourism industry where people can easily drive from Auckland to the Bay of Islands to enjoy the wonderful beauty of our home in Te Tai Tokerau is more productive than one where people wonder, \u201CIs this actually State Highway 1, or have I got lost?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThat is why we need public-private partnerships. We need more foreign investment, which I\u2019m proud to be leading as the Associate Minister of Finance, and we need city and regional deals and partnerships, along with the excellent investment of around $19\u00A0billion of capital in this year\u2019s Budget\u2014especially that led by Simeon Brown, our Minister of Transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another thing that you need, beside a good regulatory environment and infrastructure. That\u2019s education, and this Budget is filled with it. For one thing, we\u2019re actually having a curriculum filled with valuable knowledge that one generation will pass to the next. And I read today that New Zealand children in the English curriculum are going to read about someone called Shakespeare and Witi Ihimaera! Who are these people? Well, soon everyone will actually know, because we\u2019re going to teach our culture and our values as a country and pursue academic excellence. In fact, I can tell you, they were offering to teach something in the curriculum called \u201Cgrammar\u201D! That is what\u2019s going to be in the curriculum so that the next generation, actually\u2014I just saw Shanan Halbert, the former member for Northcote, looking really confused. That\u2019s g-r-a-m-m-a-r. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re going to have charter schools so that communities can innovate, and when people say we don\u2019t want to partner with M\u0101ori\u2014I got a text message from my hap\u016B just this week saying, \u201CWhat do we have to do to get a charter school?\u201D. I had to explain that you don\u2019t just text someone; there\u2019s a bit of a process, and I should probably remove myself from it. But anyone who believes for a moment\u2014[Interruption] anyone that believes for a moment that this is not a Government that will partner with M\u0101ori and Pacific and anyone that has a good idea to engage students in education, learning a top-class curriculum who hasn\u2019t heard about charter schools\u2014they ain\u2019t seen nothing yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe final thing that we need, besides better regulation, world-class infrastructure, and world-class education\u2014this Government and this country need a Government that is as careful with other people\u2019s money as the people who earned it. I think, when you look at a $2.4 billion a year allowance in the next three years, what you\u2019re seeing is a Government that\u2019s going to spend less than inflation and that\u2019s going to spend less than population growth. It is going to do more with less. That is the real solemn commitment in this Budget that I\u2019m so proud of\u2014a Government that is making a solemn commitment, starting where we are, to do more with less every year from here on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd, finally, I can\u2019t help but refer to the conflict of visions that occurs every Budget. On this side of the House, we believe that New Zealanders are human beings with inalienable rights and universal human dignity in the right to make a difference in their own life and flourish the way that they would like. On the other side of the House, fundamentally, you don\u2019t own yourself, you don\u2019t own your life, and you don\u2019t own your money. You are the prisoner of collectivism, and if you don\u2019t act the right way for your particular type of person, woe betide you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis is the Budget for the ordinary New Zealander who wants to make a difference in their own life and be the person they want to be, not the person someone else wants them to be. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002238ac731ab6b747379072c20e4a452a19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238ac731ab6b747379072c20e4a452a19\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Today, our country has just changed gears\u2014from reverse and backwards to forwards and progress. We wish, in New Zealand First, to begin by recognising the work of the Minister of Finance, and her three Associate Ministers of Finance, because preparing a Budget in an economic crisis is an extraordinarily difficult undertaking, which most people don\u2019t understand in this House, let alone in the country. A difficult undertaking when, on forecast growth charts, the International Monetary Fund last year had us\u2014of the 159 countries they measured in terms of GDP growth, they had us 158. Now, that should have been a screaming disaster out there in the mainstream media. But no, they seem to be totally oblivious to these facts. That\u2019s, by comparison, of course, the lowest this country has ever been since there\u2019ve been measurements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThese Ministers faced a tsunami of debt, and so does the Government. As a consequence, an economy at serious risk, confronting international protectionism, with the tax take seriously down, having to confront major structural failure. New Zealanders are voting with their feet, leaving our shores in a mass, Old Testament exodus of people. That\u2019s what we faced. The responsibility for that lies on that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENow, look, turning to one\u2019s own portfolio, to Vote Foreign Affairs, we can only advance the coalition Government\u2019s ambition to improve the security and prosperity of New Zealanders through an active, well-resourced foreign policy. To that end, Budget\u00A0\u201924 will invest nearly $60 million in capital and operational funding for essential diplomatic infrastructure to support key international relationships, most particularly in our Pacific neighbourhood. It is a start, a first step, Ministers of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EOver the next several months, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade will be benchmarking its diplomatic reach against countries we compare ourselves with in size and ambition, as New Zealand will more effectively advance its economic and security interests internationally. We will never get the outcomes in trade that we want unless we put a whole lot of firepower into the field. I\u2019m certain that that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENow, having said that, I observed the response from the leader of the Labour Party, Chris Hipkins. At night, if anybody\u2019s not able to get to bed, replay that speech\u2014because it was going to put Mogadon totally out of business. After five minutes, he ran out of puff. It was noticeable. You know, you have to look at that and say to yourself, \u201CI am psychologically studying what\u2019s happening over there.\u201D Their heads were down. Suddenly, they were dealing with a tsunami of correspondence that turned up this afternoon just before the Budget turned up. All of them looking downwards, not exuding confidence at all. Dejected, forlorn, guilty, inwardly repentant, but outwardly, mildly defiant. It doesn\u2019t look like a party\u2019s that\u2019s going to be back in three years, does it? Or, for that matter, six years. Because\u2014I\u2019ll tell you why\u2014it hasn\u2019t got a leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abf05536593643938d714223fe5af336\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Two years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c65cb58f03746c4a1a527a2cb062aa1\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, we haven\u2019t. Oh, and, by the way, that member shouted out through the whole time and I thought to myself, \u201CGee, there\u2019s not many people that can eat a banana sideways, but you could.\u201D Unbelievable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIn 4\u00BD minutes, he ran out of puff. He wrote his no-confidence motion not when he saw the Budget today\u2014he obviously wrote it yesterday. Because he got up and gave a stereotype speech and went straight downhill. He lamented further borrowing\u2014that Labour caused. There were crocodile tears for the elderly, having done nothing to advance the SuperGold card in the time they had it. He talked about\u2014\u201CAs a former Minister of Education\u201D, he said, \u201CI can tell you\u201D. I thought \u201CWhat a brilliant opening line.\u201D \u201CAs a former\u00A0Minister of Education, I can tell you\u201D\u2014what he could tell us about was how the education standards deteriorated so rapidly under that sort of thinking. And then he referenced the cost of climate change, when, on building climate change resilience, they had done so, so little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThen\u2014it\u2019s an extraordinary thing here, and I hope the mainstream media pick this up, if they\u2019re still alive\u2014he mentioned the failed trickle-down theory of economics. Now, that was fascinating. And he mentioned \u201C40 years ago\u201D about this trickle-down theory of economics and the 40-year period, but he forgot to say it was Labour who brought it in\u2014after March 1984. Haven\u2019t these people got a memory or conscience? Then, with seven minutes to go\u2014he took all 30 minutes to say something else\u2014he told New Zealanders that he was listening to them. You know, it\u2019s reminiscent of the song by American rapper Shaggy, \u201CIt wasn\u2019t me. It wasn\u2019t me. It wasn\u2019t me.\u201D Just to be modern, right? \u201CIt wasn\u2019t me. It wasn\u2019t me.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229203771dc6f24c7f9f35e33a4be2c177\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a country music reference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a1c7e57017040d5a9bdccde4c90d8bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not a country reference\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222efa277d7ed94e048eea33f5355ada79\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Country music.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286db1440da944e24a6b787d56668cd27\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not country music; it\u2019s a rapper. You know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1814bebb2c149b29f7682d4c79a8296\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Six minutes with no mention of the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d7906de5e9046d2a95faf4bf351fd2a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb0e1dff999f4d729f116b77eabf1b23\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Six minutes with no mention of the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272722f1a08184610a7f0bfc3b2638e38\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, I mentioned the background of the Budget in my first sentence. I mentioned the foreign affairs part of that Budget in my second page. Now, with respect, if you want to learn something, you\u2019ve got to listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ELook, we are sick and tired of failed university student union politicians. They couldn\u2019t run the university school tuck shop. They get up here, they\u2019ve never ever risked any money at all, and they\u2019re spending billions of dollars and saying that they can do it. No, they can\u2019t. Why, the last person that ran it\u2014he\u2019s heading off, having run the country into massive debt; he\u2019s going to a university with massive debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThey mentioned tobacco taxes. Tobacco taxes went up in December last year. Pay attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ELadies and gentlemen, then the next speaker was Marama Davidson\u2014speak a bit of French?\u2014sans Swarbrick. \u201CSans\u201D means \u201Cwithout\u201D. Because usually that party has co-leaders, so they get 10 minutes each. So something\u2019s going a little wrong over there. Something\u2019s happening over there. Sans Swarbrick\u2014not 10 minutes each this time. No. Marama\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263926569e8ef4b309a65c6a262bc7d83\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Scott\u2019s starting a coup.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3fb42ebf8a34634967119fb39816edd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d04fa0c5c7914dbda6b51d98a0847cf5\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Est-ce que tu parles fran\u00E7ais? Je savais pas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5d15c77d71c443d87f2195a0c252c52\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, really? Oh, really? Fantastic! Well, I can see why you\u2019re over there, on the other side of the House. Because we speak English in this country\u2014a language that came from a small village in Germany all those centuries ago. It\u2019s the language of commerce worldwide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENow, back to the Greens. Facing 54 years, my friend, of never ever having made a Cabinet\u201454 years of never being in Cabinet. How can you belong to a movement? You look like a nice guy. You join a movement, and it\u2019s 54 years in the wilderness. That\u2019s what you\u2019re going to be by 2026. Then, 2029 will be 57 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abeb2ee34a174c9ab336449f6b945f0b\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not worried about a one-term Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f92676e0e8d44a4a43882bff708614f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, you\u2019re not worried about it, no. But some of us came here to do a job, not to say, \u201CLook, I think I\u2019ll just change profession, I\u2019ll land down in Parliament and maybe they\u2019ve got a job for me there.\u201D No, no\u2014some of us here are on a mission. We\u2019re out to save our country. We\u2019re out to make it one of the greatest countries in the world again, which we once were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThen\u2014here\u2019s the point\u2014from the Greens you heard the modern version of Das\u00A0Kapital, this utopian world, when she said this, straight out of the book itself, \u201CTo each according to their need\u201D. That\u2019s communism. Why don\u2019t you say so, sunshine? Why don\u2019t you tell the people that\u2019s what you stand for these days? Don\u2019t pose as M\u0101ori. Don\u2019t pose as being green. Don\u2019t pose as being anti - climate change. No\u2014tell me what your economics is! And it\u2019s communist. Because when you can get in this House and own that up, then nobody can protest for me saying it because that\u2019s straight from the book itself. Or do a bit of reading before you come here next time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThen, he entered the race to the bottom with Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. All complaints, she did. No answers. No solutions. Descended straight from the absurd to the ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThese Green MPs, of course, are the highest aviation taxpayer-paid cost takers of all of Parliament. These Green MPs spend more time on aeroplanes than all the rest of us in terms of cost\u2014about four times my party\u2019s cost. Where are they flying to? What are they doing\u2014because they never have a meeting. They never have a public meeting. No, they just go to the nearest bush and find a frog and say, \u201CThis is going be under grave endangerment\u201D, and media rush off and put them on night after night. They never ever do anything out there. They have no constituency offices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ad45d6a49d44b5bbff8ec609cd587f4\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s the MP for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8077d5291ac4956bb40ea336ef016dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I see her there. What\u2019s her name\u2014from up north? Willow-Jean Prime. She wishes to defend them. I know why Willow would say that\u2014because that\u2019s what Willow doesn\u2019t do either. When was the time Willow ever hit the ground hard and went around the place and put in some spade work for her party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022658a45817a994ac2bc6e8586aba3f5e4\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: You heard wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c94337811af14a00807f413380779841\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry you feel that way because no matter what happens in the end, if you\u2019re going to be on the side of the Greens in this contest, then the Labour Party\u2019s finished\u2014finished. The highest aviation costs of all MPs. You know something? Winston Churchill said there is nothing the Government can give that it hasn\u2019t taken from you in the first place. I\u2019m sure this will go down big with the ACT Party\u2014there is nothing the Government can give you that it hasn\u2019t taken from you in the first place. He also said, \u201CI contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.\u201D And that\u2019s all you heard from them today\u2014unbelievable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ETwo-thirds of our new spending goes to health, education, and law and order. That\u2019s our decisive reply to the fearmongering and scaremongering led by that crowd over there. Two-thirds of our new spending goes to health, education, and law and order and to the front line, not the bloated bureaucratic back line or the 17,000 new ones they got when they\u2019re there with no productivity issues to argue for in their favour at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ETax relief in Budget 2024 leaves $3.7 billion in taxpayers\u2019 pockets. Minister\u2014it\u2019s not tax savings here; we\u2019re just not taking the money out of their pockets\u2014money that they own\u2014in the first place, right? We\u2019re leaving the money with them. It\u2019s theirs and theirs to keep. You know something? Core Crown debt\u2014what we New Zealanders owe\u2014had gone under Labour and the Greens from 20 percent of GDP to 43 percent of GDP. I\u2019m repeating what the Minister of Finance has said, because this is the environment we\u2019re in\u2014trying to get by with degraded economic circumstances born of economic naivety in the extreme and massive PR boastfulness paid for by the taxpayers of this country on their way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBudget 2024 invests $1.2 billion over three years in what was once the Provincial Growth Fund but is now the Regional Infrastructure Fund. Oh, the name was changed by the Labour Party because they didn\u2019t want to own up to the fact that the only thing they ever had success around was the Provincial Growth Fund. Now, regional projects for economic growth, flood protection, climate mitigation\u2014which they never did but which we will do\u2014and resilience projects are what our priorities are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe all have our view on the previous Government\u2019s economic performance, and many of these views, rightly so, in this House are not neutral. There is a view held recently by hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders, and their view is neutral because recently, hundreds of thousands over the last three years have left or fled this country under a Labour Government. That\u2019s the most blistering commentary of how bad they were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228609f04eecd4b8fa70fb434b30536bb\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, tell us about the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022987df1a963c64fd9b6ce68f0c8635098\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u201COh, tell us about the Budget.\u201D, he says. That\u2019s the part that we\u2019re redressing right now, right? Today the M\u0101ori Party organised a protest on Parliament\u2019s forecourt and then didn\u2019t even turn up in this House to find out what was in the Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc56835ee44f48dea9684452b5d3db28\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Here they are; they\u2019re here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9bd5f1224974ea5bddadc84d3b85022\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, they didn\u2019t turn up to find out what was in this Budget\u2014unprecedented\u2014and if you\u2019re their defender, they\u2019re stuffed. If you\u2019re their protector, if you\u2019re their advocate, if you\u2019re their defender, they haven\u2019t got a hope in Hades. The highest cost of all MPs in terms of taxpayer-paid costs for MPs, but they couldn\u2019t even bother to turn up. They couldn\u2019t even bother to turn up\u2014never been seen\u00A0in this Parliament since 1854. Since 1854, never been seen. [Interruption] And you are not the youngest member of Parliament\u2014you never were. Dobbie Paikea was. Let me inform you, M\u0101ori people, that Dobbie Paikea was here when he was 90 years of age, so stop showing off. Stop showing off and wearing a huia feather. Absolute dereliction of duty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a69ac82bf1c44f38eba2ab0031747bb\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Talking about the oldest, not the youngest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222409420817894a00bd92cc02e62f61ee\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, I\u2019m pleased you\u2019re here because you make me look young. Take your hat off. Take your cowboy hat off. You make me look young.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENow, this is a quote from someone back when that is quite poignant and reflective. This person said this, \u201CIt is Kiwi-centred because significant decisions have been made and implemented that we are driving right in, right now, as a baseline to a nationhood concept that gives them, regardless of race and creed, a sense of belonging as Kiwis in this great country. Our challenge is in moving forward.\u201D That is a quote from John Tamihere\u2014now president of the M\u0101ori Party\u2014in 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s another quote from someone back when, that is insightful and honest: \u201CThe rise of the M\u0101ori Party is unfortunate and frustrating. It is not M\u0101ori; M\u0101ori is a generic term. The group of people who have supported the rise of the M\u0101ori Party are actually tribal fundamentalists.\u201D That is a quote from John Tamihere, the current president of the M\u0101ori Party. And another quote from someone back when, that is based in fact and quite applicable to what is happening outside there today, on Budget day, is: \u201CThe problem with the M\u0101ori Party is that it is led by a bunch of people who have done extraordinarily well out of protest activism, so they can tell their children why they should vote against things, why they should march against things, and why they should dislike others.\u201D That is a quote from John Tamihere\u2014the current president of Te Pati M\u0101ori\u2014in 2005, and screaming out like you don\u2019t do back on the marae in Taranaki won\u2019t help you now. Nor that hat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAnother very factual quote: \u201CIt is quite clear. The M\u0101ori Party is built around new-age educationalists, reconstructionists in terms of history, and the academics and the new elite around the Treaty of Waitangi chequebooks. There is no case and no space in this country for separatists. I am very proud of my Ng\u0101ti Porou t\u0101nga\u2014very proud of that tribal background. We do not ram it down other people\u2019s throats, but we are very proud of it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee94969bf7514900b9821da41844215c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd2fa3cbbcda493197a0400b50f1aa86\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes, here we go. Yes, we are going, and with the same quote, \u201COur being proud of it does not mean to say that we can coerce others into our way of thinking.\u201D I will say it again for the lady from up north: \u201COur being proud of it does not mean to say that we can coerce others into our way of thinking. We have to acknowledge that this is a great land of diversity, difference, and opportunity.\u201D Who\u2019s it from? Take a wild guess. It\u2019s from John Tamihere\u2014the current president of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014in 2005. But the last quote is the most insightful of all. Here we go\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2718c1f2e144d789e09fbafd535a83f\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s lost it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a513248ae1482d80a9446114224399\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve only been here five seconds, and where I come from and where you come from, you listen to your elders, OK? So just hush up, show some manners, show that you might understand where you might go in the future before they turf you out in five seconds\u2019 time. Here we go again\u2014it\u2019s the last insightful quote: \u201CThe days when people could stand up and scream \u201Ctreaty\u201D and believe that they would get special rights have gone.\u201D John Tamihere\u2014current president of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ELadies and gentlemen, we suffered an indignity today, because the mass majority of M\u0101ori went to jobs, sometimes two or three jobs, today. They went out to work for their family and\u00A0their children, alongside all other New Zealanders. All keeping our economy going\u2014our\u00A0hospitals, our education system, everything. They went to work today. But a few people decided to go outside this Parliament and not go to work. What I\u2019ve just quoted to you today in both respects, to the president of the M\u0101ori Party, what he said then and what they\u2019re doing now, is an example of hypocrisy that is palpable, profound, precise, predictable, preferential, punitive, and pathetic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022eee778ee2495436e82fd1f34014a5a05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eee778ee2495436e82fd1f34014a5a05\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. We have 20 minutes. I\u2019m asking for leave from the House for a split call for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022135e2ad926c54ab2a2950b61db170e1f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t do that now!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002248fd2c2608004fae9b3052889ed7e0a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248fd2c2608004fae9b3052889ed7e0a2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just so the House is aware, Parliamentary Practice 19.4.2, I think, makes it possible for that action to be allowed. Therefore, expect two 10-minute calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022df11b3705b9042bdb4866d1ca26ef3c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df11b3705b9042bdb4866d1ca26ef3c7\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E [Singing] N\u014D reira mauria mai ng\u0101 tamariki ki te k\u014Dhanga reo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[And so bring the children to the k\u014Dhanga reo.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI find it very interesting that one person in this Parliament is so triggered\u2014so triggered\u2014by me, so intimidated by me! Not once did I mention, not once did I say anything over here. I sat. So, if we want to go there, let\u2019s go there. Nau mai ki t\u014D m\u0101tou nei Whare, nau mai ki t\u014Dku nei marae, haere ki te k\u014Drero atu ki \u014Dku nei kaum\u0101tua, haere ki te k\u014Drero ki \u014Dku nei ruruhi, koroheke o Ng\u0101ti Rangi, n\u014D ng\u0101 hau e wh\u0101 o te motu. Haramai ki te k\u014Drero. Moumou t\u014D toto M\u0101ori, moumou t\u014D toto M\u0101ori, moumou t\u014D toto M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Welcome to our House, welcome to my marae, go and speak with my elders, go and speak with my matriarchs and patriarchs of Ng\u0101ti Rangi, from the four winds of the nation. Come and speak with us. Your M\u0101ori blood is wasted, your M\u0101ori blood is wasted, your M\u0101ori blood is wasted.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI think Mr Winston Peters would be so proud of this young M\u0101ori wahine from R\u0101hui P\u014Dkeka, one of the youngest members of Parliament. I say humbly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221033ff9f084e4b95b4ced41c545a8b33\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you said you were the youngest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251547089981b4568a055e77c5157183c\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201Cone of\u201D\u2014\u201Cone of\u201D. Engari he aha? [But what?] I\u2019m not intimidated. I\u2019ve got no chips on my shoulder. And I find it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ae846ff9b8431f8023530b1ed141b1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I don\u2019t want to stand; that would be inappropriate. But address the House, not a single member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc272b6deeb6459296f650880c7b711a\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e, thank you. E whakah\u012Bh\u012B ana a Winitana i a au n\u0101 runga an\u014D i te mea koia te [Winston is proud of me because] he was one of the first signatures, actually, on Te Petihana Reo M\u0101ori tabled by my namesake Hana Te Hemara at Parliament. So I think he\u2019s actually quite proud. He was once on the right side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EEngari hei aha t\u0113r\u0101, hei aha ia, kei konei au ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te ata nei. Hei aha \u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero i t\u0101mitia ki a m\u0101tou, ng\u0101 uri o Te K\u014Dhanga Reo, ng\u0101 uri o t\u0101tou te iwi M\u0101ori. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero o Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori nei. Ka tuatahi ake ng\u0101 k\u014Drero ki t\u014D m\u0101tou nei k\u012Bngi, a K\u012Bngi T\u016Bheitia P\u014Dtatau Te Wherowhero te Tuawhitu, me t\u014Dna whare k\u0101hui ariki. Rirerire hau, pai m\u0101rire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EKo te kupu tuatahi i t\u0113nei p\u014D ko te reo whakamiha, ko te reo k\u014Dkiri ki t\u014D m\u0101tou nei iwi, te iwi M\u0101ori i k\u014Dkirihia i ng\u0101 tiriti i te rangi tonu nei. Ka nui r\u0101 te mihi i a t\u0101tou, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, i takahi nei ki runga o P\u014Dneke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[But never mind that, never mind him, I am here to voice the statements of the M\u0101ori Party this morning. Pay no mind to those comments that oppress us, the descendants of the K\u014Dhanga Reo movement, the descendants of our M\u0101ori people. I stand to voice the statements of the M\u0101ori Party here. These statements will first acknowledge our king, King T\u016Bheitia P\u014Dtatau Te Wherowhero VII, and his royal family. Peace and good will to all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThe first comment this evening is the voice of acknowledgment, the call to our people, the M\u0101ori people that progressed through the streets this very day. Many thanks to them from us, the M\u0101ori Party, that traversed Wellington.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EFor some, it was Budget day, but for rest of us, it was activation day. I\u2019m not here to talk about the Budget, because \u201CWhat Budget?\u201D\u2014there\u2019s nothing in it for us. The word \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D is not even mentioned once in this Budget within health, education, and police. So I\u2019m going to turn to the k\u014Drero that I gave today, which I think is more significant than this kaupapa here today, with our people and Te K\u014Dhanga Reo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EIn 1840, our t\u016Bpuna signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi, which asserted our rights, as tangata whenua, in our country. In the past seven months, I have witnessed nearly every single right be stripped away from us, from our reo, from our health, to our taiao, to our justice system, to M\u0101ori wards, housing, and I have never been more triggered or traumatised than last week, when this Government made a clear attack on the rights of our babies and mokopuna through whakapapa in section 7AA. This Government is trying to create another stolen generation, and we won\u2019t stand for it. Christopher Luxon, Winston, Seymour, can you hear us? Can you feel us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EHow extraordinary is it that kura and k\u014Dhanga reo have only been funded less than 1\u00A0percent over the last decade by successive Governments. Despite this approach, kura kaupapa continues to be amongst the highest performing educational systems in the country. Our tamariki and mokopuna are worth more than 1 percent. This House once talked about the extinction of M\u0101ori. In 1856, Dr Featherston said, \u201CWe must soften the pillow of the dying M\u0101ori race.\u201D In my maiden speech, I said, \u201CWe are here.\u201D Today, the wave spoke for itself. Now, the Government has underestimated this wave. Within my debates throughout the campaign election, I said the k\u014Dhanga reo generation is here, and there is a huge wave of us coming through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ETe K\u0101hui Raraunga shows us that we are growing and we are young, and this wave will not die out. For some of us who are sitting across, who are not growing young and who are not of this wave, t\u0113nei te ngaru nui, te ngaru roa o te ao M\u0101ori te haramai nei [this is the huge wave, the long-lasting wave of the M\u0101ori world that approaches].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EToday, I leave this message with you: kua roa nei t\u0101tou e huri tuar\u0101 ana ki te Moana Nui a Kiwa\u2014for a long time, we have turned our backs to the moana. Me huri te anga o te kakau o te hoe, me aro ng\u0101 mata, ng\u0101 whatu ki te Moana Nui a Kiwa. [The shaft of the oar should turn, the face and eyes should turn to the Pacific Ocean.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThis fight isn\u2019t just our fight; it\u2019s everyone\u2019s fight. It\u2019s not French Polynesia; it\u2019s Tahiti. It\u2019s not the United States of America; it\u2019s Hawai\u2019i. It\u2019s not New Caledonia; it\u2019s Kanaky. We must move our waves together so that we embody our Hawaiki hou. We are the biggest embodiment of water on this planet. T\u0101tou Te Moana-nui-a-Kiwa. There\u2019s nothing to fear and lose from this wave, but everything to gain. This wave welcomes every generation and every race. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EK\u0101ore an\u014D au kia kite i te p\u016B o te raupatu, engari kua kite au i te mata o te pene\u2014I haven\u2019t seen the barrel of a musket, but I have seen the sword of the pen striking at the heart of M\u0101ori. We as a party may not get to change anything on paper or law yet, but we will continue to unite the hearts and minds of our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI leave this last message to my generation: they cannot stop this wave. These are the waves of our Hawaiki hou. Our responsibility, our job, is to unleash the floodgates, remove the barricades that stop us. We are moving, and we are moving strong. A kuia and koro\u2014this actually connects to what has just happened before\u2014will always hold their grandchild\u2019s hand and move them into te \u0101p\u014Dp\u014D, but what we have to remember from our generation is that we have to hold the hands of our kaum\u0101tua and r\u016Bruhi\u2014and I\u2019ll hold Winston\u2019s hand\u2014to move them into an Aotearoa hou. We need to make sure that we are bringing our r\u016Bruhi, our koroheke, our kaum\u0101tua with us in places that were unimaginable\u2014that were unimaginable\u2014in their times; that they\u2019ve fought with blood, sweat, and tears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EKo t\u0113r\u0101 t\u014D m\u0101tou nei haepapa, e taku whakareanga, kia kaua r\u0101 an\u014D t\u0101tou e wareware ki \u014D m\u0101tou ruruhi, koroheke e takahi nei i t\u0113nei whenua, kia hoki mai r\u0101tou ki t\u0113nei Hawaiki hou hoki. Ko t\u0101tou t\u0113n\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[That is our responsibility, my generation, to not forget our matriarchs, our patriarchs that traverse this land, so that they too return to this new Hawaiki. That is who we are.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EToday was\u2014k\u0101ore he kupu i a t\u0101tou, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, i te rangi nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[We, the M\u0101ori Party, have no words today.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ENot one fault, not one arrest, not one hiccup within motivating, mobilising, and galvanising the whole motu, from the top of the North Island to the bottom of the South Island, moving towards our tino rangatiratanga and our Hawaiki hou that leads us into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ENow, I know some may look at this and think, \u201CWhat the hell is this girl on about?\u201D, but I\u2019m going to tell you this: I know who I am, I know where I\u2019ve come from, and I know where I\u2019m going. I know that might be intimidating for some people in this House, and some people might be harawene or p\u016Bhaehae of that. I\u2019m telling you, there\u2019s nothing to fear from us. And I am willing to bring you along with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ENau mai ki t\u014D t\u0101tou nei marae; nau mai ki te reo M\u0101ori; nau mai ki te ao M\u0101ori; nau mai ki t\u014D t\u0101tou nei Aotearoa hou. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Welcome to our marae; welcome to the M\u0101ori language; welcome to the M\u0101ori world; welcome to our new New Zealand. Thanks to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00225e625bec5fdf465cae8593496082b001\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e625bec5fdf465cae8593496082b001\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. It is my absolute privilege to follow in the wonderful words of the youngest M\u0101ori wahine to have ever graced the Chamber, in Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke today. What a wonderful k\u014Drero we\u2019ve heard. This is where the future is. This is what this Budget should be focused on, and it does\u00A0not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWhat this Budget tells us is that M\u0101ori don\u2019t matter, that we signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi but we continuously allow this House to assume that it has sovereignty and absolute superiority over M\u0101ori. Article 1 was the establishment of K\u0101wanatanga over your own people. Article 2 was the protection of the pre-existing rights of tangata whenua to their lands, to their homes, to their taonga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EToday, we made a declaration in the name of our mokopuna that we would no longer allow the assumption of this Parliament to have superiority or sovereignty over te iwi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s look at a K\u0101wanatanga space. We now make up a million people. One in five people here in Aotearoa are M\u0101ori. I am one in a million. Did you get that one, Matt Doocey? You liked that one; you smiled. I am one in a million. I am 20 percent of this country. I expect nothing less than 20 percent of the total Budget in this country. That\u2019s what I expect in a K\u0101wanatanga space. Not only that, on top of, if I make up 50 percent of the male prison population, then te iwi M\u0101ori should receive 50 percent of that budget. If I make up 64 percent of the female prison population, I deserve that proportion of the budget. If M\u0101ori tamariki make up 80 percent of Oranga Tamariki, I deserve that proportion of the budget. This is what a Budget should look like for M\u0101ori in a K\u0101wanatanga space. We are all taxpayers. We\u2019re all ratepayers. Remember that this Government continues to make its funds and its money and its ability to have a Budget on stolen M\u0101ori land, assets, and resources. This is what your Budget should look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThere is no mention of M\u0101ori within Vote Health or Vote Education. Hey, let\u2019s look at Matatini\u2014you\u2019re patting yourselves on the back for that. Matatini was given $38\u00A0million by Labour. You have given it $48 million over three years, which is less than the annual receiving of Matatini. It\u2019s less; it\u2019s $16 million a year over three years. This is what you are proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EIf this Budget reflected our population, that\u2019s what your Budget should look like. We want by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori, to M\u0101ori kaupapa\u2014not by P\u0101keh\u0101, for M\u0101ori; we\u2019ve had enough of that. Here is your problem: you have created the colonial trauma, the colonial violence, and what you do is you then reward yourselves by ensuring that you fund yourself on the trauma that you have created amongst our people. [Interruption] You might want to listen to this. You have created the trauma amongst our people, and then you have the cheek\u2014the absolute cheek\u2014to think you can rehabilitate us. That is a cheek to think you can impose your colonial violence and trauma on to us and then think that you can rehabilitate us, to continue to fund yourselves on the trauma that you\u2019ve created amongst our people. It is an absolute cheek, and today we declare that that stops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWe have started the conversation amongst ourselves. Be patient. We\u2019ve allowed you 150 years to establish yourselves here as a Parliament. Today, we have started the conversation, we started the w\u0101nanga to organise ourselves in the rangatiratanga space. We\u2019re not denying K\u0101wanatanga, because my t\u016Bpuna consented to K\u0101wanatanga, but they also protected the pre-existing rights of tangata whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EToday, we have started the revolution in regards to us organising ourselves in our rangatiratanga space. You must be patient. You have had 150 years. You must be patient whilst we w\u0101nanga this amongst ourselves to look at what a situationship looks like between K\u0101wanatanga and rangatiratanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235974b04cc4f4eff90b42f2723ca4a8b\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Not transactional.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7c13fb5528a4bf8b6689e73944287e4\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: It is not transactional\u2014it is not transactional. We are in a transformative space, and it\u2019s happening to indigenous peoples all over the world. This is what your Budget should reflect. If we make up a million people in this country\u201420\u00A0percent\u201420 percent of the Budget should come to by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori, to M\u0101ori kaupapa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EYou cannot rehabilitate us after damaging us, traumatising us, inflicting violence on to us. You cannot. It is time to have a serious conversation about how you support tangata whenua to bring ourselves out from underneath the bonnet of colonial violence. Allow us the time to organise. Be patient so that we can look at what rangatiratanga and K\u0101wanatanga situationship would look like, because our relationship is with the Crown; it\u2019s not with Parliament\u2014our relationship is with the Crown: mana to mana. Parliament is a mahi space, and it\u2019s a situationship where we should be coming together for certain situations to be able to support each other. The problem is that we have been made to feel like second-class citizens in our own country for far too long. We will not allow that to happen anymore. This is what this Budget should reflect. Be patient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKo t\u0101ku ki taku Iwi M\u0101ori [This is my message to my people]: be courageous. We must step into this space. We must organise ourselves, create rangatiratanga to be able to talk to K\u0101wanatanga about how we bring ourselves out from underneath the bonnet of colonial violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis is what a Budget should like. This is what Aotearoa hou looks like. This is not a you and us. This is about us organising ourselves and then looking at what a situationship looks like between us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWe are organising. We are empowering ourselves. We are rising. Like a good r\u0113wena bread, we are bred different. We are bred different, but we are rising. Koia hoki te mahi i t\u0113nei w\u0101. [And that is also what is happening right now.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis is where te iwi M\u0101ori is going. I heard somebody say, \u201COh, why doesn\u2019t the M\u0101ori Party just resign if you want to start your own Parliament?\u201D What rangatiratanga looks like to us is our business. If it\u2019s a M\u0101ori Parliament we want, that\u2019s our business. Our movement has a strategy. We have a K\u0101wanatanga strategy\u2014this is it here. We also have a rangatiratanga strategy, which doesn\u2019t sit in this place. This is what the Budget should be reflecting, but it does not\u2014it does not. It continues to support a white economy, privilege. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWhen my t\u016Bpuna came back from the war, they were promised land ballots; they didn\u2019t get it\u2014they went to white farmers, and their mokopuna continue to benefit from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EYou have cut us out of homeownership. To own a home gives huge leverage to a family. If we are 50 percent of the social housing waiting list, we demand 50 percent of the stock. It makes absolute sense. These statistics are yours. This data is yours. The science is yours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EIf our people are dying seven to 10 years earlier than non-M\u0101ori, why not allow us to access superannuation before that? Follow the science. Follow the data. Until the tide rises where we can all be equitably looked at and equality reigns, I challenge this Government to think outside the square and I challenge you to be patient while te iwi M\u0101ori organises itself and upholds our part of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, because we\u2019ve honoured K\u0101wanatanga, but we\u2019ve allowed you to assume that you have mana over us, and you do not. That is the declaration we made today for our mokopuna. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00224b13076e94414113b1f87b154582ff94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b13076e94414113b1f87b154582ff94\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That this debate be now adjourned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002288fdc65f60d04c9197997c94bb46f595\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000361\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed433966340d486a8927fdce96514bb8\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce097ec6ab0d4d87aaeae7c31cbbe4e1\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca475b661d27459884dcb59c7b96277e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca475b661d27459884dcb59c7b96277e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the first reading of the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, the introduction and passing through all stages of the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill, the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill, and the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill; the introduction, first reading, and referral to select committee of the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill and the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill; the introduction and passing through all stages of the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill and the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs is tradition on Budget day, the Government is progressing several bills through urgency as part of the Budget process. And I note for the House\u2019s edification that we have made a change from the approach of previous Governments, in which the Opposition would find out about what bills were being introduced at the moment they were introduced, and the Opposition had approximately 10 minutes to figure out how they were voting or indeed what they were going to say about those bills, by providing copies of the bills to the Opposition at 2 o\u2019clock when the Budget was introduced. So they\u2019ve had a reasonable amount of time. I accept it\u2019s not an ideal amount of time, but at least it\u2019s more time than any Opposition in the past has had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill delivers on our commitment to deliver tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders. The public finance bill and the waste minimisation amendment bill reflect new savings measures in Budget 2024, and the land transport bill that I\u2019ve just mentioned is required to ensure that changes to the Clean Car Standard targets can be made as soon as possible to increase certainty for the vehicle industry. The local government water services bill and the resource management amendment bill are being referred to select committees but are also required to pass with pace. The local government bill is the second step in the Government\u2019s Local Water Done Well policy. And the marine farm bill extends marine farm consents by 20 years under the Resource Management Act. The Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill will reduce a regulatory burden and remove compliance costs that have been put on forest businesses. And the accident compensation bill is a bit of a tidy-up bill. It makes it explicit that ACC can charge debit interest where levies are paid by instalments. As I understand, there is some current ambiguity in the legislation. Both those two bills need to pass by 1 July, so there is urgency to ensure that occurs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222286319558a74f7ab41590c992ec93e9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b684c5a54df645bc80b348628a5a1e00\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbc2478d400d4033b1932afd7917b151\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbf30921025c4eaf8ce68942617b228c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbf30921025c4eaf8ce68942617b228c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand it is the intention of the Government to introduce bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00226b1cce4342214c8a8af3598f39294640\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b1cce4342214c8a8af3598f39294640\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETaxation (Budget Measures) Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPublic Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, introduction \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EWaste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill, introduction \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill, introduction \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EResource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EForests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill, introduction; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223e99194182684d17af3d0b7e5399e046\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e99194182684d17af3d0b7e5399e046\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill is set down for first reading immediately. The remaining bills in the urgency motion are set down for first reading presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223bba06c9ab084e53be6e441e87bfec16\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e90859c489143d0953a29d38151be7c\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00222ec0660785a74f2da95e4b0ae2e2ab17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ec0660785a74f2da95e4b0ae2e2ab17\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Associate Minister of Finance) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225bd4e1d0584345689d242ef31d95d6f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000383\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022051daed56f744381aba53af1546029d7\u0022\u003ETaxation (Budget Measures) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b185763de0d24aeb81b3f7833a759e34\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2a7a92d0ef249c0a69b668cbd688871\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2a7a92d0ef249c0a69b668cbd688871\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea64ff9af52746afa5376231873b022e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7b49046d564186ae03e0f983f98571\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ETonight in this House, we are going to reduce taxes paid by working people for the first time in 14 years. This tax relief is long, long overdue. It is owed to New Zealanders who work hard every day and yet have given more and more of that hard-earned wage to the Government, only to watch that Government over these past six years do less with their money than they would have done with it; deliver them poorer results; spray their money everywhere; drive up inflation; drive up interest rates; and leave them, the working people of this country, in a cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to take you through how this bill delivers tax relief. But as I embark on this speech, here\u2019s the question I think all the members here should be asking: who in this House, in their right mind, in a cost of living crisis, would oppose tax reduction for working people? The question we have to ask\u2014because there is a party in this House that once called itself a party of the worker\u2014is: will that party oppose working people being able to keep more of their own money? That is the question that I\u2019m very interested to see answered tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EBecause as members will be aware, today I delivered the coalition Government\u2019s first Budget, and it addresses the urgent issues facing New Zealanders: the high cost of living. We are providing relief for New Zealanders and their families who have been suffering the effects of inflation; those New Zealanders who, when they\u2019ve been standing in the supermarket checkout aisle, have watched the numbers flick on the screen and wondered if there\u2019s enough money in the EFTPOS account this week to meet those groceries; those New Zealanders who, when they go home from work, see that petrol light on and think, \u201CJust one day till payday; just one more day till I can fill it up.\u201D; those New Zealanders who have said to their kids, \u201CSorry, no swimming lessons this year, kids. We can\u2019t afford it anymore.\u201D Well, this Government has heard the cries of those New Zealanders and we are going to give them what they deserve, which is tax relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIt is prudent expenditure to give tax relief because actually you have to ask yourself this: is there anything that is a higher priority than helping people keep more of their own money while encouraging them to participate in work to contribute to our economy? Tax relief is an investment in increased productivity. The tax relief package that we are announcing today in this bill is very seriously targeted at families with children, at low and middle income people, because we know that they are the people who have suffered most through Labour\u2019s cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThis bill gives effect to several measures. The first and biggest of the proposed amendments provides tax relief to individuals and families by increasing the personal income tax thresholds for the first time in 14 years. Raising the thresholds means that you get to keep more of the money you earned before you get moved into a higher tax bracket. We\u2019ve had a situation in New Zealand where unlike many countries in the developed world who automatically adjust tax thresholds to compensate for the effects of inflation to allow for nominal wage growth, or unlike other countries in the world who, while not automatically, have stepped in to do it, our country hasn\u2019t done it for 14 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo the effect is that even people on average incomes have been pushed into higher and higher tax brackets, forced to give away a higher proportion of every dollar they earn to the tax man. The effect of this has been that for a median income worker, for a typical worker, their wage now puts them in a much higher tax bracket than it once did. Even a minimum wage earner, if they work a few more hours a week, is paying 30c on the dollar in tax. So this bill that we set down tonight is addressing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s step through how it works. So the lowest income tax rate, for example, is 10.5\u00A0percent. It currently applies to all income earned from a job up to $14,000. In an atmosphere of high inflation, people are being pushed into those higher tax brackets. Yet with reduced spending power, people are worse off and so is our economy. So we are changing that threshold to $15,600. That means from 31\u00A0July, someone on that level of income will be able to earn $1,600 more annually before they begin to pay the higher 17.5\u00A0percent tax rate. Currently, any personal income earned between $14,000 and $48,000 is taxed at 17.5 percent, and anything earned over that takes you into the next highest bracket of 30 percent. The new threshold for paying the 30 percent rate will be $53,501. That is $5,500 annually, which will be taxed more fairly at the lower rate of 17.5\u00A0percent instead of 30 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIs it any wonder that even Michael Cullen\u2019s Tax Working Group said that if you don\u2019t adjust tax brackets for inflation, you destroy the progressivity of the tax system? That, actually\u2014[Interruption]\u2014well, the Tax Working Group acknowledged that if you don\u2019t address fiscal drag, you make your tax system less progressive. This is actually about helping the low and middle income people and workers of this country. Then, as we step through, any income you earn over $70,000\u2014and bear in mind, members, that the average wage is now $73,000; any income you earn over that is currently taxed at the higher rate of 33 percent. Well, we\u2019re changing that threshold to $78,100 so more of your income will be taxed at the lower rate. The bottom line is this: our changes mean that people on low to middle incomes will pay less and they will be keeping more of what they earn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, we have also got measures in this bill which ensure that tax relief is really targeted at those lower and middle income families. We are expanding eligibility for the independent earner tax credit to boost the wages of those earning $70,000 or less. This will boost their take-home pay. We are also increasing the in-work tax credit for working parents. This boost will ensure that those families who are really struggling with the cost of living will get more money in their after-tax pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EFinally, this will also introduce the FamilyBoost payment. This is something that is particularly close to my heart because any of the people in this House who know people with young children will tell you that that is a really hard financial time in families\u2019 lives. They face high housing costs as their family expands, often their working hours have been reduced as they juggle childcare, and then the childcare costs they face are often extremely high. Well, the FamilyBoost payment will ensure that working families can get up to 25 percent of a rebate of every dollar of childcare fee that they pay. The effect is up to $150 more for those families every fortnight. That is meaningful relief, and I know it will make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhen I look at this tax bill and I think about what it represents, I think about the people who I have spoken to in recent months and who I talked to on the campaign trail; the people who had taken on extra jobs, Ubering at night just so they could pay the rent; the people who told me that they\u2019d had to say no to chocolate biscuits at the supermarket because they couldn\u2019t afford it anymore; the people who work two jobs, three jobs to put food on the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThey watched while the last Government said that they needed every one of those dollars; they needed every one of those dollars in tax, and then they wasted it on three waters, on TVNZ-RNZ mergers, on more officials in the back office. That was an injustice, because, actually, working people deserve to keep more of their own money; they deserve a Government that will be as disciplined with its spending as they are. We have, in this Government, a Government that is committed to that; who has gone out and found the savings; found the reprioritisations, line by every line, so that we can put money where it counts: in the back pockets and bank accounts of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll leave you with these numbers: 727,000 households getting at least $75 more a fortnight; 187,000 households getting at least $100 more a fortnight; on average, households getting $60 a fortnight; and, on average, households with children getting $78\u00A0a fortnight. This is real relief, and the test for those who claim to represent working people is: would you really, really oppose it? Because if you do, shame on you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223e802779b0ef4545ac87f6d63d15ee31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e802779b0ef4545ac87f6d63d15ee31\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00224c1bb25c6fd445ec9895379820188844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c1bb25c6fd445ec9895379820188844\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Let me give you some numbers. Someone who earns $50,000 a year will end up with a tax cut of $15 a week. Someone who earns $60,000 a year, because of the interaction with the independent earner tax credit, will end up with $25 a week. Someone who earns $70,000 a year will end up with $15 a week. Someone who earns $80,000 a year will end up with $20 a week. Those are the numbers behind this type of shift in the tax thresholds, and that\u2019s what they mean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut there are some interesting effects of what\u2019s going on and some interesting reactions to what\u2019s going on with the tax cuts. For those of us who are still on Twitter, or, as it\u2019s now known, X, there are some pretty instant reactions coming off there. Let me read some of them to you. Someone called Amazonia says, \u201CMy 90-year-old mum, facing a massive hike in rates\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dcfcf6e2029404a832bd3c571fb979d\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks to you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228183a7ccfc4b429c9c0bb61fa4095b3c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201Cgets a $4 per week increase.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fb047a6df4e465f8a00d1a6a89b5543\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t overuse the word \u201Cyou\u201D and bring the Speaker into the debate. Interjection is fine, but just be careful in your wording. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e31fbee0e94bd186a5328b01b7e5f8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ali says, \u201CSo grateful for my $7 a week tax cut. It was so worth gutting our public sector for it.\u201D Darren says, \u201C$10 billion in inflationary tax cuts no one wants, $12 billion borrowed during an inflation crisis to pay for it.\u201D Mark says, \u201CMy tax cut is less than the increase in my kids\u2019 bus fares\u2014cool. My middle feels so less squeezed now.\u201D, and that\u2019s the reality: give with one hand, take with the other, and the taking has been greater and greater and greater from that side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is the way that these tax cuts have been presented in the Budget statement. The Government has set out a series of examples of what individuals or families might get, and, in an interesting move, it\u2019s all been on a fortnight basis. That\u2019s useful, because you can double the numbers by doing that. But the interesting one that I found fascinating was the one that went through the various adults and family combinations as to\u00A0what they would earn, because they talked about a working couple\u2014so two adults earning $150,000 each, per annum. Well, those are pretty well-off people in the first place, and they\u2019re going to get one of the biggest tax cuts going. They\u2019ll end up about $2,000 better off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b48de6c1fdc4b4fb6f6a210b07a6c17\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s two average wages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc07bfa65844dae997f97cacd42ccec\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: No, if it\u2019s $150,000 each\u2014each, each, each, each\u2014it adds up to $300,000. That\u2019s a massive household income in this country, and they\u2019re going to get one of the biggest tax cuts available. So there are some interesting ways of prioritising going on with these particular tax cuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut in this first speech, I want to direct the House\u2019s attention to the revenue strategy set out in the Budget documents, as required by law. There\u2019s a particular paragraph in it\u2014it\u2019s\u00A0the second paragraph in it\u2014that says, \u201CThe Government will operate a stable, predictable revenue system.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s a good thing, of course. Then it says that the current main tax basis\u2014personal income tax, company tax, and a broad-based GST\u2014will continue to raise the bulk of Crown revenue, and that\u2019s what happens at the moment. Then it says that with prudent control of spending, the Government does not see the need to seek major additional sources of revenue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut in the briefing to the incoming Minister, in the scenarios that Treasury set out when this Government took office, it clearly pointed to a huge fiscal risk in out-years\u2014not next year or the year after or the year after it, but there is a long-term risk where we know that Crown revenue is going to fall significantly under Crown expenditure. This is expenditure on health, on education, on welfare, and on all the things that we\u2019d like to have in this country in order to ensure that all of our citizens are looked after\u2014so that the pensioner who is facing a massive rates increase is looked after, so that the families who need to pay their prescription charges are looked after, so that ordinary people do well\u2014and yet this Government is refusing to take responsibility for the long-term fiscal projections in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1e243011c32415592b433aec46c6585\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1e243011c32415592b433aec46c6585\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Just to get rid of the surprise for the Government members, the Green Party will be opposing this bill today. The reason for that is that we come together as communities, as individuals, as neighbourhoods, as people in this country to form something together that we call society. The reason that we do that is so that we can achieve things together that no one individual could achieve alone. That looks like things like our hospitals and our schools. It looks like climate action, it looks like public transport, and it looks like mass State housing builds. That is the point of Government: to generate the revenue to pay for things that no one individual could pay for alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve heard from this Government today is their commitment to continue entrenching and deepening inequality in this country. They have pledged their allegiance to an unfair and unproductive tax system, with trickle-down tax cuts at the expense of pretty much everything else. To that effect, we saw in the financial reports from the Minister of Finance today some cherry-picked statements from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the OECD in order to justify some of the things that the Government has done. But what they have done in cherry-picking those statements is decide to intentionally neglect the point that both the IMF and the OECD, in line with market economic orthodoxy, have argued: for Aotearoa New Zealand to implement a capital gains tax\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228483f76feef64aa78ca1a2ef2cc72357\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: What else did they say, Chl\u00F6e?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c07cea118a24370b5dae01b2e810a45\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in order to have a more productive and fairer tax system, where we do not simply see money funnelled into housing, Andy Foster, and we end up with a generation of more jobs and productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo who are getting these tax cuts? Well, under the tax settings today as in this legislation, an average four-person family would receive approximately $126 from this Government. But under the Green Party\u2019s tax plan, which we went to this election with, they would receive more than double that, at $288. We would also see the implementation of a tax-free threshold for those who are earning less, those with an income of less than $10,000. We would do that by implementing a wealth tax. And I know that that\u2019s just anathema to the dogma that we hear from the Government parties, but let\u2019s just unpack some of the facts that they have at their disposal and that they knowingly are neglecting and ignoring today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EA year ago, we had the Inland Revenue Department\u2014and the Minister of Revenue is currently heckling me. We had a report that told us that the top 311 families in this country pay an effective tax rate of less than half of that of the average New Zealander. But, more so than that, they hold more wealth combined then the bottom 2.5 million New Zealanders. That\u2019s not an accident. It is a consequence of a tax system that sees those at the top continue to accumulate more and more wealth and more and more power, at the\u00A0expense of everyone else. That is what drives inequality and that is where poverty comes from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe have also seen this Government knowingly make decisions to cut funding for the likes of K\u0101inga Ora, for the likes of rangatahi housing, in order to fund these tax cuts. And what does that say? Well, we have in the child poverty statistics, or rather the projections, released alongside this Budget today, that the Government has made no commitment to reducing child poverty in this country. It will plateau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWhat all of this exposes is that we are not so much dealing with a cost of living crisis, as this Government campaigned on throughout the election last year; we are dealing with a cost of greed crisis, and we in the Greens are asking New Zealanders to connect the dots. While New Zealanders out there have paid record prices in rents, for their groceries, for their energy, guess who has made record capital gains and profits? It is the supermarket duopoly, it is the energy gentailers, and it is landlords\u2014who this Government handed a $2.9 billion tax cut to, only to increase the cost of housing, as the Reserve Bank of this country says. Our ask, as the Greens, is to see New Zealanders not let this Government pull the wool over their eyes, because the truth is out there and the evidence is clear: this Government is knowingly increasing inequality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00221bc9c904432545c993d029608953c722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bc9c904432545c993d029608953c722\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I could offer that member, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, a woollen blanky to soften the reality that this country can\u2019t afford to keep spending, keep taxing people. We have to have a change, and that\u2019s what this Budget shows. We\u2019ve heard from the Greens member her proposal for a wealth tax\u2014it\u2019s economic illiteracy. You can\u2019t tax your country into prosperity. We\u2019ve heard more slogans but no substance, no solutions. We can only grow our wealth so that we can offer better conditions for New Zealanders, so that New Zealanders can actually keep more of what they earn. We can also do that by shrinking the size of the State and making sure that the Government doesn\u2019t have its hands deeper and deeper in people\u2019s pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe heard no solutions from Labour. They\u2019re going to spend a lot more time in the wilderness before Kiwis look to them for salvation again. Once burned, many, many times shy. This coalition Government understands that spending money is not the measure of success, unlike the previous Government, it\u2019s actually getting results that count.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EACT is proud to be part of a coalition Government that\u2019s already found $7.5 billion in savings in last year\u2019s mini-Budget, and another $1.5 billion in ongoing savings over the past few months as Ministers worked to prepare this Budget. That includes $107 million found from the Healthy School Lunches programme, while actually extending that programme to feed more children in need in early childhood education. We\u2019ve found $486 million just knocking around in the bottom drawer at the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment which we can return to the centre to provide for tax relief as one of the benefits for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s true that ACT would have preferred to go further with spending cuts and tax cuts to let Kiwis keep even more of what they earn. But it\u2019s also true that a Government without ACT would not have gone as far. That is why ACT is proud to support this bill and we\u2019re proud to be offering tax relief to New Zealanders in Budget 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00220c79e8aad2694815937b7ddec7d0cb8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c79e8aad2694815937b7ddec7d0cb8d\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to contribute to the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill. And I\u2019m proud to say that we support this bill. It\u2019s quite an honour to stand in my very first Budget and provide the very first speech. Now, why are we supporting this bill? Well, it\u2019s been 14 long years, and it\u2019s now time. It is now time to change the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bd890edbbd04780a3e72d8719170d8a\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f9d25176964b2aad9df9460474b1c3\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH\u003C/span\u003E: What was that, my friend?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a3903566e094a33a912499a53d1d48b\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d1a28c136ba4a3e88bbf2931e718662\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come. Now, finally, from 31 July this year, the taxation thresholds will change. And it\u2019s going to be a significant change for many, many New Zealanders\u2014hard-working New Zealanders who have been waiting for this change. I feel very honoured to be able to stand here and say, \u201CYour time has come.\u201D Not long to wait for this change. And the good thing is the money is going to be in their pockets for them to choose how they would like to spend their money. So that is why I am very pleased to commend this bill to the House on behalf of New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002275e4e70e5d21409bad589367cd3e8612\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275e4e70e5d21409bad589367cd3e8612\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to stand and rise and speak on behalf of the National Party and our Government in support of the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill that we are bringing to the House straight after the delivery of the Budget this afternoon. And what a fantastic job did Nicola Willis do as the Minister of Finance. What a superb job of finding a great medium, in the difficult economic times we find ourselves in, of actually delivering tax relief for New Zealanders and bringing this bill to the House straight after the delivery of the Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EThe Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill is about increasing personal income tax thresholds from 31\u00A0July this year, just as was campaigned on in the 2023 election. This bill gives effect to our Budget\u2019s tax measures\u2019\u2014announced earlier\u2014aim to help reduce the cost of living pressures faced by hard-working New Zealanders by providing much-needed tax relief and additional support, in particular to low and middle income individuals and families. It delivers the FamilyBoost tax credit, helping with the cost of early childhood education; expands eligibility to the independent earner tax credit; and increases the in-work tax credit and the minimum family tax credit. I support this bill and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022da1088733e04493aab0cff6c966d3ef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da1088733e04493aab0cff6c966d3ef0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Often you hear Governments stand up in the first piece of legislation, in what will be a long haul of Budget urgency in terms of the debates that are there, fizzing with what their Budget has provided. And we\u2019re hearing this about cost of living pressure relief for families. But it has not taken New Zealanders long to pull this apart, to understand that the poorest New Zealanders are not getting that relief, that the wealthiest New Zealanders are getting two times the relief of minimum wage workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo when we have the Minister of Finance standing up in this House and claiming that they are the party of workers, well, I can tell you the party of workers does not take away cheap public transport for kids. It does not take away healthy school lunches. It does not put costs back on prescription charging. And it does not do things that it knowingly knows will raise rents and insurance\u2014the very things the Reserve Bank have been telling New Zealanders is putting a pressure on their back pocket and the money they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the important documents that accompanied the list of new initiatives\u2014although that\u2019s reasonably thin in this Budget, because there aren\u2019t that many\u2014is a very interesting document called the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU). And what the BEFU does is it does give that economic and fiscal update. This is Treasury\u2019s, not the Government\u2019s, forecast for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I find concerning\u2014and I think New Zealanders do too as they\u2019re counting their $2 and $4 a week tax cuts; it will send a chill down their spine\u2014is that we know how these tax cuts are being paid for. They\u2019re being paid for by cuts to public spending and funding things like the reintroduction of interest deductibility. And what does the Treasury\u2014the economic adviser to our Government\u2014have to say? Well, it says that \u201Cthe reintroduction of rental property interest deductibility for tax purposes, and changes to the bright-line rules [are] all expected to have [an] \u2026 upward impact [on rents]. Rents are forecast to continue rising rapidly over the early years of projection\u201D. So this is the kind of things that New Zealanders can look forward to because of the choices that this Government has made in this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis Budget is a Budget of broken promises. Nicola Willis, when delivering her Budget, started her speech talking about what she\u2019d heard on the doorstep. I\u2019m sure she also heard on the doorstep that people were expecting the $250 a fortnight that National went out and told them they were getting. And what are they getting? They\u2019re getting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b70a9d1b70141e28c4777b919eb6639\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Bugger all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022494c08572aad4c8f998543b732c05f60\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot quote my colleague Kieran McAnulty, but \u201Cnot much\u201D would be the paraphrase of what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut I think of superannuitants. When I have to go out and look them in the eye and talk about my $20 tax cut, and know that for a single superannuitant that is $2.50, how can that be seen as anything that any Government could hold its head up about? It is not even, as Chris Hipkins said, enough to buy a packet of chewing gum. This is not how you address cost of living. These are tax cuts that are at the expense of core public services\u2014the very things that these cuts will put pressure on in New Zealanders\u2019 household budgets and New Zealanders\u2019 wallets. This Budget will cost Kiwis more. This is not a Budget where the tax cuts are going to deliver the relief that they thought was coming their way. They are going to pay more for their health, they are going to find that what is delivered in our schools is being cut. There is not a single cent in this Budget for supporting learning services. How are we going to ensure that those kids who we need to support the most to make sure they have educational attainment are supported?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI will, in many other contributions over the course of the next three or so days, talk about the cuts to climate funding that account to billions and billions of dollars. So this Government not only is letting down New Zealanders today, but it is letting down the next generation of New Zealanders too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022b736398f4cb04c72b4619ade93c59553\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b736398f4cb04c72b4619ade93c59553\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThis is, as the finance Minister said, a clean-up Budget. It is a clean-up Budget because of the mess that has been left by the previous Government, and it actually heralds a new era. It\u2019s an era in lowering Government spending, giving much-needed tax relief to the squeezed middle in particular, and actually getting on with the business of rebuilding this economy. It\u2019s in huge stress because of the mismanagement by the previous Government\u2014it\u2019s a massive hole; we\u2019ve heard a lot about fiscal cliffs, but they are holes because of that\u00A0previous Government not spending enough time on actually getting New Zealand back\u00A0working, and just employing more and more people to do less work. That\u2019s just out of control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut what does it actually mean? Well, for someone on an average income, they\u2019re going to end up with $102 more a fortnight. That\u2019s a significant amount of tax relief. That\u2019s fantastic for those families, and if they\u2019ve got FamilyBoost, they can have another $150 a fortnight. That\u2019s fantastic. And a single person earning $55,000 will be better off by $51 a fortnight. It is significant tax relief that is long overdue\u2014the first time in 14\u00A0years that we\u2019ve got tax relief. It\u2019s way overdue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EAnd the fees free\u2014I think that\u2019s one of my favourites. Fees free\u2014shifting it from the first year at university to the last. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7cace2024da4f45b43150d26f5d6bd9\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd00f7256f874e1c9f915dfa8e798373\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it\u2019s a New Zealand First policy and I think it\u2019s fantastic. So, with that, I commend this wonderful bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022492eb1caa65f40a584740886ebfae55c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022492eb1caa65f40a584740886ebfae55c\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. You might think that if it was so wonderful, the Government members would like to use the entire time available to them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4bb3da488a04556baafe883b8ee8d21\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Especially the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab19c479c6384ab3bf9f8769fd33c0d5\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014especially the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I would have thought that he, of all of them, given how rowdy they were today during the Budget speech, here in the very first bill that arises from that Budget, would actually spend the time available to talk about how good it was. I think the reason that they haven\u2019t is because, deep down, they know it\u2019s actually not that great, and, deep down, they know that it actually doesn\u2019t deliver what they promised. This bill doesn\u2019t meet up to the promises that the Government has made. They clearly don\u2019t know the numbers, because Stuart Smith has just yelled out some numbers as part of his two-minute speech that were inaccurate. They weren\u2019t right. They did not match what the finance Minister said. When you\u2019ve got the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, who doesn\u2019t actually know what\u2019s in the bill, standing up and saying the numbers\u2014I\u00A0think that says a lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, this bill takes away from New Zealanders. Because if we just actually dive into the detail, the question has to be asked: what cost is coming with the tax cuts this bill is bringing? For the many, many people in this country that are renting, the\u00A0$2,\u00A0the $4, the $6, or whatever they get is going to be swallowed up almost immediately by the increase in rents that the Budget, which these changes are part of, is bringing in. It\u2019s in their own documentation. It says, very clearly, that the $2.9 billion tax cut that this Government is giving landlords by reintroducing interest deductibility, by scrapping the brightline test, and scrapping initiatives like emergency housing and transitional housing and maintenance on K\u0101inga Ora homes\u2014all of which is in the Budget\u2014and scrapping the First Home Grant\u2014all adds up to one thing: higher rents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe know that the growing proportion of renters amongst the over-65s, when they look at this Budget and they hear the Government members crow\u2014and many of them have huge proportions amongst their constituents over 65\u2014and they look at this and they see that they\u2019re getting $2.15, if they rent they\u2019re soon going to get a rent increase significantly higher than that. What are the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293c1289cae064da2a1d5654e048d8509\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Whatever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7fa38bdba4640b38cabd2a57f075f86\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, whatever. Yeah, whatever. Let\u2019s just say \u201Cwhatever\u201D to facts. Let\u2019s say \u201Cwhatever\u201D to their own documents. It\u2019s in your own documents. I tell you what: go back to Hamilton and invite the over-65s to come to your electorate office. And when they come to you and they say, \u201CI\u2019ve only got $2 a week out of this, but my rent\u2019s gone up 20 bucks.\u201D, will you say \u201Cwhatever\u201D then? Will you say \u201Cwhatever\u201D to their face? I bet you don\u2019t. I bet you don\u2019t have the guts. He\u2019ll say it quietly off to the side, but he won\u2019t look his constituents in the eye and say what he\u2019s going to say here in the hope that no one hears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut we did hear, because that is the attitude of this Government\u2014they don\u2019t care. When they are presented with the damage that this bill is actually going to do to working people and to retired people, their reaction is \u201Cwhatever.\u201D They don\u2019t care. They do not give a jot. And this is supposedly a Government made up by a party that was formed to look after old\u00A0people. New Zealand First is supposed to look after old people, and with the possible exception of Mark Patterson\u2014who is a friend of mine and so I\u2019m not going to pick on him,\u00A0but I\u2019ll pick on the rest of them\u2014they don\u2019t court the old people\u2019s votes now. It\u2019s almost like unless they\u2019re wearing tinfoil, Winnie don\u2019t care. That\u2019s their constituency now:\u00A0they\u2019re after the cookers, and they\u2019ve forgotten about the old people. And this Budget sums it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just the old people, though, because, of course, the \u201Caverage\u201D wage means that there are many people in this country earning underneath that, and they don\u2019t get the figures that the finance spokesperson talked about in this Budget. They get bugger all, and that is not fair. That is not fair, when people like me\u2014in fact, every member of Parliament is walking away with 80 bucks a fortnight that we don\u2019t need. I don\u2019t need 40\u00A0bucks a week. I don\u2019t need it. Here we are, arguing that this legislation is supposed to be helping those that need it, and yet those that don\u2019t need it are benefiting the most. That is a choice that this Government made, and it just goes to show what their priorities are. So when New Zealanders look at this bill and they look at what they\u2019re supposedly getting, look at what the Government\u2019s also taking away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0dbedd45dbc45e28f38d713eca5226c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0dbedd45dbc45e28f38d713eca5226c\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. I\u2019m so eager to talk about Budget 2024, which is a Budget for hard-working New Zealanders, providing tax relief after 14 years, while on that side of the House they kept on dipping into the incomes of hard-working New Zealanders like they were a bottomless ATM. Well, we are here to turn that around and reduce the cost of living and give more back to those hard-working New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EOur tax package targets hard-working New Zealanders and families and young people and the middle and lower income earners. It gives average-income households up to $102\u00A0a fortnight, plus FamilyBoost childcare payments of up to $150 per fortnight. We all know how tough it is with those childcare costs out there. People are doing it very tough at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EOur tax relief in this Budget puts $3.7 billion a year back into the pockets of New Zealanders. This tax relief package will also be fully funded from all the savings from all the wasteful spending of that side of the House, because we are going to be more fiscally responsible with taxpayers\u2019 money. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222342d9fe445f43dbbc6ff36b36f961f9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000460\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221b770503f2834204a082cce63184d5a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b770503f2834204a082cce63184d5a8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002277fba1b0193e4fb78aefb6f960c4d0c8\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022a13acb0f38304d1893844083408a67c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a13acb0f38304d1893844083408a67c4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe high cost of living is one of the most pressing issues here in New Zealand today, and that is why we are considering this bill under urgency. Given that urgency, I will provide just a brief recap of the content of this bill and the purpose for the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIt will be obvious that the purpose of this bill is to provide responsible tax relief squarely at lower to middle income Kiwis. This will be done by increasing the bottom three personal income tax thresholds, which will allow people to keep more of what they currently earn before moving to higher income tax levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe bill will also extend the independent earner tax credit to compensate for wage growth and help more people with the cost of living. It will also boost the in-work tax credit so that low to middle income working families will get up to an extra $50 per fortnight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThese changes are necessary because many families are struggling with the high costs of housing, food, and also childcare. That\u2019s why this bill will also legislate the previously announced FamilyBoost, which will help 100,000 households with young children to be able to afford early childhood education and make that more easy for them. The cost of early childhood education fees can be a barrier to entering the workforce, particularly for the second income-earner in the household. All families earning up to $180,000 with early childhood education costs will be eligible. However, to ensure support goes to families who need it most, the maximum repayment will gradually reduce for families earning more than $140,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThese changes are what we promised in response to the inflation impacts created by the last Government. But on the other side of the ledger, inflation has also had another effect. Overseas-based student loan borrowers are currently charged interest at the rate of 3.3 percent on their student loans, but over the last three years, inflation has overtaken student loans\u2019 overseas interest rates by 9.5 percent. The bill therefore increases the interest rate charged on overseas-based borrowers of student loans by 1 percent for a period of five years from 1 April 2025. Increasing the current overseas interest rate formula by 1 percent for a limited time of five years will partially cover the loss of value in the scheme caused by the last three years of high inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOne of the final items in the bill is an urgent remedial amendment to ensure that Inland Revenue can process claims for research and development tax incentive if a business applies for approval under an incorrect entity name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOverall, the bill package will increase the income of most households in New Zealand. However, a small number of households\u2014less than 0.3 percent\u2014will have their income reduced by $2 per fortnight on average. This is due to a quirk in the way in which the tax threshold adjustments interact with the calculation of tax for people who receive a benefit for only a part-year. After the personal income tax changes take effect, these part-year benefit recipients will receive slightly smaller tax refunds at the end of the tax year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhat the bill package will do is increase the income of 94 percent of households in this country by $60 per fortnight on average. Households with children will gain $78 per fortnight on average, and that is a great result for hard-working families and households across this country. This Government has delivered on the promises that we committed to the New Zealand public. We have delivered income tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders, and this bill is the proof in the pudding that we have delivered the actions that we promised to New Zealanders. We should be\u2014and New Zealanders should be\u2014proud of that achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis is the full extent of this Budget bill. It will make a real difference for New Zealanders up and down this country, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229cfd0618b50d416cb446803fd989702b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cfd0618b50d416cb446803fd989702b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002283771617774a4ea6a33b0226f13d518c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283771617774a4ea6a33b0226f13d518c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. In the lead up to the Budget, the Minister of Finance was at pains to say several times that the Government would have tax cuts and that they would be meaningful\u2014they would be meaningful\u2014that they would make a substantial difference to people. But what this bill does is it shifts the tax thresholds around. The net upshot of it is the most that anyone will get\u2014the most that anyone will get\u2014from the shift in the tax thresholds is $25 a week, and that\u2019s only in conjunction with the independent earner tax credit. Now, that\u2019s the amount that someone earning about $60,000 a year will get, in conjunction with the independent earner tax credit. It\u2019s the very most they will get. Most people\u2014people like those of us in this House\u2014who are earning over $78,000 a year will get a tax cut of about $20 a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut, in the meantime, public transport costs have gone up. In the meantime, rates have skyrocketed. In the meantime, the cost of going to the doctor has accelerated. In the meantime, there has been substantial inflation caused by worldwide factors; it\u2019s a worldwide phenomenon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228b11b31332248f898f22303cd92db9b\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go. Here we go. Playbook number one: worldwide factors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f056675db2144971b0973d1845f0a5f3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, sitting in the Minister of Finance\u2019s speech, the Minister of Finance said\u2014and it was gobsmacking actually\u2014that the Government can only be held responsible for factors within its control. She started talking about the worldwide factors that are affecting them. Somehow, they didn\u2019t exist a year or so ago! And, in the midst of that, what she has been at pains to talk about over the last few weeks are the \u201Cmeaningful\u201D changes to the after-tax income that people get. I put it to you that, in face of the increased cost\u2014the increased cost because the Government has withdrawn from services\u2014these shifts in the tax thresholds do not deliver anything like a meaningful increase to after-tax incomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bfb4d7d1fd14a26b64371f383d6e031\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody\u2019s on that side of the House; they haven\u2019t turned up for days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f67980bf001422491d1039a9fee5a7c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me\u2014that\u2019s not an appropriate comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9be37d8319041c1a1e4fb501141544c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Going from that broader issue to one more detailed issue, in this bill there is something that was\u2014more or less; until the very previous speech\u2014a secret new tax on student loans, on student loan borrowers. Now, ordinarily, when there\u2019s a measure taken in the Budget, it will be highlighted, it will be discussed, it\u2019ll be in the publicity documents. But the only way we found out about it was by reading the tax bill itself\u2014and here it is. So the interest rate that is going to be charged to people who go overseas on their student loans is going to increase\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae35e41c1494c3996a118e0920448d5\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: By 1 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022391c7f03bc5e428c8505f562c73219d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014by 1 percent. So, again, sitting in the detailed estimates\u2014I\u2019m going to direct the House\u2019s attention to the section on revenue\u2014there is an increased amount of funding for investment in compliance activities. Let me just read what it says. It says this initiative provides funding for and shows an increase in tax revenue from Inland Revenue\u2019s increased compliance activities on tax and student loan overseas-based borrowers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, having sat in that role myself for some time and having had student loan borrowings within my remit, there are some extraordinary outstanding debts on student loans, and some students\u2014people who studied here in New Zealand then have gone overseas\u2014who are in real financial trouble, who took out loans when they were young and didn\u2019t really understand the impact of it. Now, this Government is going to chase after them even harder and is going to charge them more while they are about it. Sitting in this tax bill is that increased charge on student loan borrowers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EYou know, getting an education is sufficiently expensive as it is. It\u2019s hard enough, and that Government is making it harder. That sits along with some of the other stuff they\u2019re doing in tertiary education, making it harder for people to get an education. They should be ashamed of what they are doing in that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere are a whole lot of other changes sitting in this Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill. A lot of them are simply consequent on the changes in the tax thresholds. They are deeply detailed; they are flow-through changes to fringe benefit tax, to employer superannuation contribution tax, and so on\u2014all the sorts of changes we would ordinarily expect. But the heart of this tax bill\u2014the heart of it\u2014is that shift in income tax thresholds. As I\u2019ve said before in the first reading speech on this bill, it does provide a change, not as the Minister said\u2014and I\u2019m going to take it that he just made a slip of the tongue. It doesn\u2019t change people\u2019s income; it will change the amount of income they take home after tax. Of course, any increase in after-tax income is welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EOf course, another way to increase the income that New Zealanders have is to provide a flourishing economy. This is a Government that in order to provide its billions of dollars of tax cuts\u2014its tax cuts which favour the already wealthy\u2014has cut services and cut jobs dramatically. There is a high cost to this shift in income tax thresholds. The high cost is being borne by people who have lost their jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EYou know, we\u2019ve had some organisations in this country celebrating that 5,000\u00A0people are out of work, in order to provide these tax cuts. So, in this country, we need to have a little bit of a think about why we pay tax in the first place, why paying tax is something that supports us, that supports our health system, that supports our welfare system, that supports our education system, that builds our roads, that provides for our police, that provides for our defence, that provides for our judicial system, that provides for all the things that we like to have in this economy and in this country because it makes living here good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis is a great place to live, and it is a great place to live precisely because of the things that the Labour Party, and people on this side of the House, have fought for and funded, for generation upon generation. We are the party of health. We are the party of education. We are the party of welfare. We are the party of the environment. We are the party that supports the way of life we like in this country. In order to do that, we all pay our taxes. We all make a contribution to the common good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThrough this tax bill, coupled with all the swingeing cuts to services that this Government has made, all we are doing is shifting costs from one pocket to another. All we are doing is ensuring that families who now have, perhaps, some more money in their pocket\u2014because of the changes in the tax thresholds\u2014have to, at the same time, pay increased public transport fares to get their children to school. All we have is families who might have some extra money in their back pocket\u2014because of these changes in tax thresholds\u2014having to pay more in excise tax, starting from the 2026 year. All we have is families who might have some more in their back pocket\u2014because of this shift in the income tax thresholds\u2014having to pay incredibly increased rates, because that Government would not fund the critical water infrastructure needed in this country. All we have from this shift in income tax thresholds, which might put a bit more money in people\u2019s back pockets, is families who now have to pay more to register their car.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a whole lot of sneaky increased costs which are now no longer being funded. On top of that, they\u2019ve imported into this an increased tax on our student-loan borrowers\u2014on the very people who\u2019ve done their damnedest to get ahead. It is a disgrace. It\u2019s an absolute disgrace. And this Budget is a disgrace. They should be ashamed to be part of it. It\u2019s a Budget with no vision, with no care, with no forethought for the future, with no way of ensuring that, long term, this country can thrive, that people in this country can do well. They should be ashamed to be part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221878e982063549a2a83db2c760c429a3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7.30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002262b2eb184b77465d867d630c40f20980\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262b2eb184b77465d867d630c40f20980\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening. The House is resumed. We are on the second reading of the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7dff74d8d474fbda809165aa0a9a4e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7dff74d8d474fbda809165aa0a9a4e6\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. This bill, the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill, which represents the tax changes that the Government is bringing in, ultimately shows, I think, the ideological difference between the Government and the majority of New Zealanders, because the majority of New Zealanders know that we can do so much more working together. These tax changes are very \u201CI, me, mine\u201D. That\u2019s how I would sum up the ideology of the governing parties: \u201CI, me, mine\u201D. It\u2019s the little gains that they\u2019re giving to individuals and missing out on the bigger picture of what we can do together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThey claim they\u2019re delivering when, at best, they\u2019re delivering $10 or $20 a week extra to people, but they\u2019re taking it back. It\u2019s a drop in the bucket from what they\u2019re taking away that we can achieve together. I\u2019ve already seen people publicly commenting on this. They\u2019re getting an extra $20 a week\u2014that\u2019s what you get if you\u2019re on the higher end of the income spectrum\u2014but they\u2019re going to miss out because their daughter\u2019s bus fare has gone up to over $13 a week and they have prescriptions that they now have to pay more for. It doesn\u2019t take into account the loss of the collective investment that we could be making in the infrastructure and services that serve us better when we work together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ECheaper public transport, free prescriptions, making it easier for people to buy electric vehicles\u2014because we have to, because that\u2019s how we adapt to the climate crisis: by decarbonising our transport system. But they\u2019ve axed the Clean Car Discount. They\u2019ve massively put up the price for driving electric vehicles (EVs) through road-user charges, and, of course, we haven\u2019t even begun to see the true cost of the cuts that will be felt in public services that are no longer there for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThis is a smoke-and-mirrors Budget. They very much claim to be delivering, but the big win for people, again, is all broken down into a very individualistic approach. I think that most New Zealanders know that when you go overseas, you see better infrastructure and fewer homeless people. That\u2019s because those countries have fairer tax systems and our tax system is still very unfair, and the changes in this bill make it less fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe irony is that the Government will talk about trying to deliver for \u201Chard-working New Zealanders\u201D. It\u2019s very much a kind of virtue signal to say that if you are working in paid work, you\u2019re worth more to society than people who are caring for children or caring for elderly or disabled wh\u0101nau. What if the work that people contribute to society doesn\u2019t have a commercial return? It still has a value to society, and that is something that people on the Government benches really have not yet understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe are continuing to let land bankers and land hoarders pocket more and more untaxed income while working people are struggling with rising rents, rising electricity prices, and rising costs of public transport, all because of decisions this Government has made. And there are certain slogans that get trotted out again and again, and you can go right back to that in the 1980s and 1990s to hear where they first started\u2014\u201COh, so and so wrecked the economy\u201D, blah, blah, blah, \u201CGot the country into debt.\u201D Again, it\u2019s all just meaningless slogans, like the quotes from Winston Churchill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIf we really want to understand how to build a more productive economy, one that genuinely benefits everyone, we have 30 years of evidence that the neoliberal ideology does not deliver that. It does not work. That\u2019s the facts. You know, I grew up in the United States, where the infrastructure is crumbling. We\u2019ve had these same ridiculous political lines trotted\u00A0out by right-wing parties since Ronald Reagan, and what has it delivered? Populist demagogues like Donald Trump and crumbling infrastructure, but a small number of millionaires and billionaires who can claim massive tax deductions for their private jets. It\u2019s just crazy. Like, that\u2019s where it goes. That\u2019s where this ideology leads to. It leads to an incredibly unequal society where people increasingly, if they are lucky enough to be the winners in this society\u2014because they inherited property usually, or because they happened to start out with money\u2014end up living in gated communities and having to pay private armed guards because the crime gets worse because you\u2019ve got people who are starving outside the walls of that gated community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, that sounds extreme, but that\u2019s the road that we are on right now. This bill adjusts personal tax income thresholds, and, as I\u2019ve already said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c46b6b72203f42b0a9be3a8f50763d8c\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Woo hoo!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223285fad55ea9414cb9bdb3a60ef6b717\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re very excited about that. The Government members are super-excited about that because that\u2019s the highest goal they have for our society\u2014it\u2019s for people to get an extra $10 or $20 a week and then miss out on investment in our society, our collective wellbeing, and our collective good. But the difference is that most New Zealanders, I think, actually know this, and this is starting to be reflected in the polls. They realise that they\u2019ve been sold a bit of a sham. And that is why I would say this is very much smoke and mirrors\u2014because where are the cancer drugs? Where are the cancer drugs that were promised? Where are the EV chargers that were promised? Where\u2019s all the infrastructure that was promised? It\u2019s not going to happen and it\u2019s definitely not going to deliver the outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFinally, in my last few minutes, I just want to talk about how this bill in particular is so harmful right now, because we are facing a climate crisis that is going to continue to affect the world and New Zealand. And the Government parties not only do not have answers; they are literally taking us backwards. The things that they propose as solutions to the climate crisis are the exact opposite. So the changes that they\u2019ve made to the clean car legislation are going to mean higher-emissions vehicles, higher emissions from road transport. The changes that they\u2019re making to the Resource Management Act, to have a fast track\u2014they claim this is about renewable electricity. In reality, they will be allowing more coalmining and motorways that make emissions worse, so it doesn\u2019t stack up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EUltimately, I think that most New Zealanders have the values\u2014and probably the members opposite; some of them do have the values and they do understand manaakitanga, generosity, working together, being collaborative. How is that not the most fundamental value of a liberal democratic society? And the way that we implement that is through our shared resources, through having a fair tax system that ensures that everyone in New Zealand has what they need to live a good life\u2014not an extra $10 or $20\u00A0a week, but spending more on public services, spending more because public transport fares have gone up, because we\u2019re charging more for our prescriptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe thing that I really can\u2019t understand about this Government, but I think they have realised, and it will increasingly become clear to the country, is that it is not possible to improve our infrastructure, improve our public services, and deliver large tax cuts to landlords. Until we fix our tax system, we aren\u2019t actually rewarding people for working hard; we\u2019re rewarding people for owning property. And that is one of the biggest challenges for us to improve the productivity of our economy\u2014the fact that there\u2019s an incentive to invest, not to build new houses. The interest deductibility was there for new builds, but now that the Government has given it to existing houses, there\u2019s an incentive to buy more of the houses that already exist, which, of course, has not reduced rents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESurprise, surprise. No, the changes that benefit the landlords in this society do not put downward pressure on rents\u2014rents continue to go up\u2014but I tell you what would and what the Green Party would definitely support: rent controls. If the members opposite care about keeping rents in check, then build more public housing and put rent controls on rents. Otherwise, it\u2019s just lip-service, and we know who the Government really represents. They represent the landowners. They are feudalist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c523443a9a914b28a8b62dfa1cb85a4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c523443a9a914b28a8b62dfa1cb85a4c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Jeez, where to go! I mean, if you needed a lesson in how to kill off any building of rentals, that speech was it. That\u2019s how you kill the rental market\u2014put rent controls in. Honestly! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003ELook, this bill is pretty simple, really. It\u2019s a movement of the tax brackets. It\u2019s about time\u20142011 was the last time these tax brackets were shifted. In that time, we\u2019ve had a 34\u00A0percent increase in inflation. That\u2019s a 25 percent decrease in people\u2019s purchasing power. For every dollar you had then, you\u2019ve got 25 percent less\u2014you\u2019ve only got 75\u00A0percent. This needed to happen a long time ago, this needs to happen now, and, quite frankly, it needs to happen again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EThis is really, really simple stuff. It\u2019s not the Government\u2019s money; it\u2019s the people\u2019s money. It\u2019s leaving it in their pockets\u2014it\u2019s pretty simple stuff. I\u2019ve heard a lot about \u201COh, we need to be investing in this and investing in that.\u201D Well, this Budget is investing in a lot of the core things. What it\u2019s not investing in is a whole bunch of failed projects, dreamy ideas, and white elephants all over the show\u2014$100\u00A0billion was wasted. What can we see for it? Absolutely nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EI see across my portfolios things that I could invest in that would deliver results, but there\u2019s no money. It\u2019s all gone\u2014it\u2019s all been wasted. So, like with any business, we\u2019ve got to cut our cloth to suit. Right now, up and down this country, farmers and other small businesses are doing it tough. They\u2019re doing it really tough, and they\u2019re having to cut their cloth to suit. So that\u2019s what this Government has to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard a bit about inflation happening everywhere and that it\u2019s not the last six years\u2019 fault. I\u2019ll leave you with a quote which will make the Green Party really happy, because they\u2019ll love the person that made this quote. \u201CInflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon. It\u2019s caused by too much money chasing after too few goods.\u201D, and in the last six years, we\u2019ve had $100 billion put out there\u2014that\u2019s where your inflation comes from. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9d8af4a27d5459da4e4344f7c363020\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9d8af4a27d5459da4e4344f7c363020\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ll take a short call once again on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill in the second reading. Now, we support this bill, not only because of what it will do for hard-working New Zealanders but also because it\u2019s another example of this Government delivering, and that is one thing we do. We don\u2019t only talk but we also do what we said we were going to do, and we will continue to deliver for everyone in New Zealand so that they can have greater certainty in what is coming and have faith in us that we will deliver. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2102eb297cd413e9d4ed17309457c85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2102eb297cd413e9d4ed17309457c85\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E This is an austerity Budget for M\u0101ori. This is a Budget that is dashing the hopes of rangatahi M\u0101ori, and taking away the dreams of people who want to live here, who want to own a home here, who don\u2019t want to see their dreams of homeownership taken away, their ability to get into work, and their ability to raise a family. But that is all the things that this taxation bill and the Budget bill before it do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s so disappointing for young New Zealanders who have a dream of homeownership, to have that ownership dream ripped away from them, when we see things like the first-home buyers grant taken away to fund a $2.9 billion tax cut enabled in this bill to go ahead.\u00A0This Budget enables some of the most extensive transfer of wealth from ordinary working New Zealanders to people who already own homes, at the expense of people who National Governments in the past have championed\u2014that\u2019s people who want to get into homes. Do you know who that will affect the most? That will affect the people who have the hardest time getting into secure, warm, dry homes. M\u0101ori, Pacific, people on low incomes, people in the South Auckland communities that I represent will be hurt by these economic decisions that that Government is taking, and represented in this taxation bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe heard today from Treasury that unemployment is projected to rise to 5.2 percent. Last time that Government were in charge, M\u0101ori unemployment went up to 14.5 percent. Tens of thousands of people will lose their jobs in the next quarter. What is that Government\u2019s response? It\u2019s to cut jobs. It\u2019s to put nothing in the Budget to support M\u0101ori aspirations into work. There is nothing in this Budget to support M\u0101ori to upskill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere are cuts to things like the Apprenticeship Boost programme that those MPs campaigned on keeping. It\u2019s been halved. You know, just today, I spoke to a young builder, he was an apprentice called Jimmy Edwards. He told me that he wanted to finish his building apprenticeship and he was looking forward to being able to do that through WelTec here in Wellington. It\u2019s that kind of person who this Government is punishing at the expense of landlords to fund a campaign promise that they relied upon to get elected. But $2.9 billion in the context of their finance Minister standing up today, and saying, \u201COh, things are hard. Things are really hard out there for working New Zealanders.\u201D Well, it is a choice to give $2.9 billion worth of tax relief\u2014tax cuts to landlords, when, in fact, people are struggling out there, like Jimmy, who just wants to finish his apprenticeship and get into the construction sector; a construction sector that is struggling and needs not only more workers but a pipeline of builds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut, no, this Government has actually cut 500 K\u0101inga Ora homes, and another few hundred are on the block. What does that say to the construction sector? It says, \u201CWe were all big talk on the campaign trail, but we\u2019re not going to put in those initiatives that would actually help us deliver on our promises.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAn austerity Budget for M\u0101ori hurts all New Zealanders. It means M\u0101ori homeownership rates will go down. It means M\u0101ori unemployment will go up. It means M\u0101ori who want to get ahead, who want to provide for their wh\u0101nau, who want to do well in life are being denied the ability to do that by this Government\u2019s choices and the kind of economy that they are creating with this type of policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EContrast that with Labour, where successive quarter after quarter unemployment was below 4 percent, where tens of thousands of people in South Auckland kept their jobs and kept their connections with their employers. It saw M\u0101ori unemployment come down to record lows. It\u2019s that kind of investment which makes a change in this country. It\u2019s that kind of investment which leads to the social cohesion that we all talk about wanting in this House. It\u2019s that kind of investment which means that wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori can succeed. If that is what we want, then these choices are not the ones we should be taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ETax cuts worth $2.9 billion fly in the face of everything this House should be doing for not only wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori but for Pacific people, for hard-working South Aucklanders, who were told at the election that they would be getting a cut of $250, but they\u2019re not getting that today. Instead they\u2019re getting more costs imposed on their budgets, they\u2019re getting less relief than they were promised, and they\u2019re getting cuts to the public services they rely upon. This austerity Budget for M\u0101ori is bad choices all round.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225894642766a3435ea89576c953bb7393\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225894642766a3435ea89576c953bb7393\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s time to address the bill, the trickle-down bill, the inequality increasing bill. I want to take us back to a few months ago when the Government decided to cut benefit increases, which, as officials were speaking about, would have increased the level of child poverty rates, and at the time were told, \u201COh, like,\u00A0we can\u2019t take that in isolation.\u201D, despite the fact that reducing benefit increases would\u00A0increase poverty. We were told, \u201CWait. Wait, there\u2019ll be other relief for people, so don\u2019t worry.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAnd now we\u2019ve seen the so-called relief after an end to the subsidies for medical prescriptions, the end of public transport subsidies, after we\u2019ve seen rents continue to go up and landlords being given more powers to evict tenants and make life harder for people, after we\u2019ve seen the reduction of emergency housing assistance in this Budget. We\u2019ve now been told that people should be comfortable with breadcrumbs in this bill. And the reality is, if you\u2019re a disabled person on the benefit, if you\u2019re someone who\u2019s struggling to make ends meet or without a home, this bill will do very little to lift you out of poverty or to provide any form of relief, because what this bill contains, beyond the breadcrumbs and tax relief, are changes to the in-work tax credit rate, a discriminatory policy that ignores that caregiving is work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe in-work tax credit has been labelled as an incentive for people to go into work, but it doesn\u2019t adequately support those in part-time work, nor does it acknowledge the caregiving work that people do in our communities. And, at a time when disabled and carers have told us about the importance of caregiving, the Government has once again chosen to ignore the work that caregivers do to support our communities and leave those struggling the most stranded in this austerity, inequality-increasing piece of legislation, as part of a broader Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s speak to another component of the bill. For the so-called complaints this Government had around the brain drain and the loss of talent and people who were overseas, this bill is, effectively, creating a disincentive for people to come back to Aotearoa, because, already, too many people living overseas with a student loan are feeling like they\u2019re just simply not going to be in a position to come back because of the interest rates that they\u2019re accruing. If we want to attract people back to Aotearoa, the solution to that is to actually create communities here that are attractive for people to come back. Like, it\u2019s understandable for why some people would want to stay overseas when they\u2019re seeing rents go up at record levels, when they\u2019re seeing living standards drop, when they\u2019re seeing a Government scapegoat those struggling to make ends meet the most, when they\u2019re scapegoating M\u0101ori. Why would people want to come back seeing a bill that will pay for tax cuts by then also increasing the interest rates that student loans will be paid back to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo this bill, effectively, all it does is throw some breadcrumbs to people, and, in the context of the broader Budget, it doesn\u2019t make up for the fact that this Government has chosen to make life harder for most people by actually legislating against supporting people with health conditions, people who need to use public transport, and renters. This bill, in and of itself, will ultimately benefit those high-income earners more, rather than people who should have been lifted as part of a cost of living Budget. The truth is that this bill, in of itself, will also continue having early childhood education be run as a for-profit private sector and not be treated as a public good. Because the reality with the FamilyBoost tax credit is that all it does is it creates a continuous incentive for early childhood centres to continue putting prices up. And while some people may see that 25\u00A0percent relief, the reality is that it does very little to actually tackle the hard political conversation that is why early childhood education is continuously treated as a business and not a public good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut, I mean, I\u2019m not surprised, right? This is the party that has continuously supported privatisation, the party that doesn\u2019t support everyone living a good life and under a safe, warm, dry home. And so it is absolutely no surprise that they\u2019re putting forward a bill on Budget day to continue with early childhood education being treated as a for-profit business by many, many entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe reality is Budgets, and the legislation that are put forward in Budgets, are political choices. The Greens are clear that we will make the choice, should we be in power, to ensure that we end poverty, that we end discriminated caregivers who receive a benefit, and that we tackle the environmental and biodiversity crisis that we face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb247e4524bb4e89a919c5150b20b6b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb247e4524bb4e89a919c5150b20b6b8\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The economic mire that we\u2019re in was six years in the making, and this Budget is the first step to rebuild our economy and get New Zealand back on track. And with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9f508aeb57846ebbf52c576be56c5bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9f508aeb57846ebbf52c576be56c5bb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Sometimes when you\u2019re in urgency you\u2019d expect the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee to give a more substantial contribution than what we just saw from that member. Budget urgency and the tax packages that often go through them, they do go through under urgency, but I think it is the Government\u2019s responsibility to at least take that process seriously. And for the chair of our select committee, that is in charge of shepherding legislation in this area through, to give a contribution like that, I think exemplifies the disdain to which this Government holds New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, we heard the Minister of Finance today in her address talk about doors she had knocked on in the election. And, Mr Speaker, no one knows more than you how effective she was at that task. But what she would have also heard when she knocked on those doors is that National candidates were out there telling the voters of New Zealand they could expect $250 a fortnight in tax cuts. And many of them voted accordingly. Many of them voted expecting that they would be receiving that $250 a fortnight in tax cuts. And what has been delivered to them today? Well, it certainly is not $250 a fortnight. In fact, the Minister of Finance said something different in the House than she would have said on the doorsteps during that election campaign when she told us that for average New Zealand families, that would be $60 a week. There\u2019s $190 missing there in terms of what people were counting on and what people were expecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnd how are they being paid for when we come to consider the taxation bill that we\u2019ve got before us? And there\u2019s some detailed questions that we will get into at the committee of the whole House stage. But these are being funded by borrowing, and make no mistake about that. The debt track that we are on sees us borrowing $12 billion to deliver $10\u00A0billion worth of tax cuts. This is a Government that is pushing the debt as a percentage of GDP higher than it already is, and it\u2019s not to fund services for New Zealanders; it\u2019s to fund tax cuts. And that is what is putting our futures at risk. It is what is taking this country back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo not only are they not delivering on their promise but the choices being made within this Budget are going to make families worse off. Let\u2019s have a look at some of those things. I think housing is one of those areas. Let\u2019s leave it for another part of the debate, where we\u2019ll get stuck into it\u2014the lack of money for public housing that is in this Budget. But let\u2019s have a look what it does for homeownership. We\u2019d already had the rushed and forced announcement that this Government was killing the Kiwi Dream for a generation of first-home buyers by taking away the First Home grant. But within this Budget, we also see any money that our Government did not spend on progressive homeownership has also been taken away. That money has been put on to the alter of tax cuts. That is one of the prices that New Zealanders are paying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnd what does the Government\u2019s economic adviser Treasury have to tell the Government about what the package that is being delivered in this Budget in the BEFU\u2014the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update\u2014what does it tell will happen to rents? Well, the economic adviser to the Government tells us very clearly it is advising the Government there is going to be upward pressure on rents. That is the result of this package of measures. On page 19 of this document, the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update\u2014to direct those members to something other than the Minister of Finance\u2019s speaking points\u2014you can see that rents are forecast to continue rising rapidly over the early years of this projection. It also says, \u201Cthe reintroduction of rental property interest deductibility for tax purposes, and changes to the bright-line rules [are] expected to have [an upward] impact.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo very clearly we can see first-home buyers are being shut out by this Government. And the choices that this Government is making will put upward pressure on rents. That is not the Labour Party saying that; that is the Treasury\u2014the economic advisers that were advising the people that put together this Budget. So when they go back out on the doorsteps, they can ask them how in some cases their $4 and $5 a week tax cut is trending with their rising rents and the fact that they\u2019re shut out of the housing market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat, then, is this Budget going to deliver for those on superannuation? I am surprised, like my colleague, that New Zealand First let this one through\u2014the fact that we are seeing that for most pensioners we are talking about a $4.30 per fortnight increase, and that is for a couple. That is $2.15 for an individual. That is the benefit that they will see, when other people are getting $40 and up to $60 a week increase. We know that our superannuitants struggle, and ours was a Government that increased superannuation. To see what this Government is doing, how miserly and mean-spirited they are being to superannuitants, is something I am genuinely surprised that a coalition partner took through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnd one of the things I will be interested in when we get to the committee stage is that the regulatory impact analysis goes through a number of the scenarios that ACT put on the table and a number of the options that ACT wanted modelled. And to be perfectly honest, I\u2019ve never seen a regulatory impact statement which is quite so partisan in terms of which party put up what. And what ACT argued for\u2014it lays bare some of the coalition politics, which I think in itself is entirely interesting. But what I do not see in that document is what New Zealand First put up, which I find incredibly interesting, given the impact that this is going to have on what once would have been considered a core constituency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnother price that New Zealanders will pay for these tax cuts is that we can see that the capital expenditure profile is far lower than that that was sketched out in the Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update, or PREFU. What we see is that there will be less invested in the capital track than was being projected before the election. This is something that the Government will have some serious questions to answer about because we know we have an infrastructure deficit. And what we have is a Government that is not funding that infrastructure spending to the level that it was going to be before the election. And we certainly will have some questions on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBecause when you have a Government that says they can\u2019t afford things like a homelessness action plan or transitional housing for rangitahi but they can give a $2.9\u00A0billion tax cut to landlords, we have a Government that is laying clear where its values sit. The kinds of choices that are being made show the disdain for which this Government holds New Zealanders. New Zealanders are realising that. They are realising that there is a string of broken promises. The things that they were told on the doorstep by their National candidates before the election are not being delivered. Top of that list will be the $250 a fortnight tax cut that people believed they were getting. There is going to be some explaining to do: why it is that family that might be receiving $20-odd a fortnight is now going to have to pay for prescriptions, why they\u2019re going to have to pay to put their kids on the bus to school. They\u2019re the kinds of choices that this Government has made. They have taken far more out of ordinary New Zealander\u2019s\u2019 pockets than they are putting back in with these tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut the tragedy is that the cumulative effects of those tax cuts will cost us intergenerationally. It is a Government that has slashed the funding for climate initiatives. It is hard to believe that a Government who is in power in the 21st century could make the kinds of choices that are in this Budget around climate initiatives. And the fact that we have a revenue Minister who is also the climate Minister shows choices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022974d632f4dba469e94ff122d740387b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022974d632f4dba469e94ff122d740387b5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u002260ea3f0255ad48bc909131c2337f384d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260ea3f0255ad48bc909131c2337f384d\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of this bill. I\u2019m very eager to talk about our Budget, which is delivering on our campaign promises to ensure that there is tax relief for hard-working New Zealanders\u2014that\u2019s right. The member on the other side of the House has spoken about our door-knocking during the campaign, and all of those tradies, all of those truck drivers, all of those nurses, all of those teachers, all of those police officers that I spoke to out on the streets in Hawke\u2019s Bay during the campaign who were sick of the wasteful spending by that side of the House, who were sick of the $100 billion and absolutely nothing to show for it. They want tax relief that goes back into their pocket. They know how to spend it better than the Government on that side of the House. They want the money in their back pocket, not in the bureaucracy and the ideology and everything else. They haven\u2019t had tax relief for 14 years, and that is why this Government is going to deliver it. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220dc43d822c894bf392f2e7b07a0da22d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dc43d822c894bf392f2e7b07a0da22d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The battle of the shouting is about equal. Can I just see if we can bring it down equally, too, just so everyone can hear. The Hon Willow-Jean Prime\u2014five-minute split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc0b716a32d24d14920fa92190f431ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc0b716a32d24d14920fa92190f431ca\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 koe m\u014D te h\u014Dmai i te rima miniti ki ahau ki te whakawaha ake i aku whakaaro e p\u0101 ana ki t\u0113nei Tahua P\u016Btea me te iti o te moni ka hoatu ki ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau. Ko te kaupapa i t\u0113nei w\u0101 o t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire, ae, ko t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga, t\u0113nei ringa ka hoatu t\u0113tahi w\u0101hi p\u016Btea ki ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau. \u0112ngari t\u0113nei ringaringa ka tango an\u014D. Koir\u0101 te mea e kite ana ahau i roto i t\u0113nei Tahua P\u016Btea. Ae, ka hoatu \u0113tahi p\u016Btea t\u0113nei ringaringa, ka tango t\u0113nei ringaringa. He aha ng\u0101 mea e kite ana ahau? Ko te tango i te p\u016Btea m\u014D te rongo\u0101. Ka whakakorea t\u0113n\u0101. He mea nui t\u0113r\u0101 m\u014D te oranga o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata. He mea nui t\u0113n\u0101 i roto i taku rohe o Te Tai Tokerau, \u0113ngari n\u0101 t\u0113nei Tahua P\u016Btea, n\u0101 t\u0113nei kaupapa o ng\u0101 tax me k\u012B kua hoatu t\u0113nei taha, tango i t\u0113nei ringa. T\u0113tahi an\u014D kaupapa ko te tango i te p\u016Btea hei tautoko i ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau e hoko ana i t\u0113tahi whare. T\u014D r\u0101tou whare tuatahi. Kua whakakorengia t\u0113r\u0101, kua poronga t\u0113r\u0101. N\u0101, e hoatu ana w\u0113tahi moni t\u0113nei ringa, engari tango i t\u0113nei. Te kai i roto i ng\u0101 kura, he hanawiti, he pihikete pea noa iho. \u0100, ehara i te kai ora, rite ki a m\u0101tou. Kua t\u012Bni t\u0113r\u0101 in\u0101ianei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI roto i taku kaupapa o ng\u0101 tamariki, hiahia ana r\u0101tou ki te hoatu i t\u0113nei p\u016Btea m\u0101 ng\u0101 take ki ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau, engari ka tango mai e hia miriona t\u0101ra i ng\u0101 tamariki me ng\u0101 ratonga m\u014D ng\u0101 tamariki i te Oranga Tamariki. Kahore ahau e whakae ana ki t\u0113r\u0101. E kite ana ahau i \u0113tahi pikitia ki waho nei, i t\u0113nei ahiahi. Me te k\u014Drero kei runga, kahore ahau e hiahia ana t\u0113nei P\u016Btea mai i te K\u0101wanatanga. Ko t\u0101ku e hiahia ana kia tiaki i ng\u0101 mokopuna. Hoatu ki ng\u0101 hohipera, ki ng\u0101 kura, ki ng\u0101 pirihimana, r\u0101tou katoa. E kite ana ahau i \u0113r\u0101 \u0101huatanga i roto i te Tahua P\u016Btea. Engari kahore te p\u016Btea e nui rawa m\u014D \u0113r\u0101 ratonga katoa. Ko t\u0113tahi an\u014D kaupapa, ko te tango i te tautoko m\u014D ng\u0101i t\u0101tou te iwi M\u0101ori. Ng\u0101 ratonga M\u0101ori ng\u0101 kaupapa M\u0101ori. E rapu ana ahau i roto i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pukapuka kei hea te p\u016Btea hei tautoko i t\u0113r\u0101? E m\u014Dhio ana ahau kua hoatu ki ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata whai rawa, whai whare maha: te rua ira iwa piriona t\u0101ra ki t\u0113r\u0101. Engari ko ng\u0101 ratonga M\u0101ori, korekau he p\u016Btea kei roto i t\u0113nei Tahua P\u016Btea m\u014D t\u0113r\u0101. Ko \u0113nei ng\u0101 whakataunga o t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga. T\u0101 r\u0101tou e hiahia ana ki te tautoko, engari he aha ng\u0101 mea kua poro. He nui ng\u0101 mea kei roto i t\u0113n\u0101 Tahua P\u016Btea kua poroa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EE hiahia ana ahau ki te whakawaha ake \u0113tahi atu o ng\u0101 whiriwhiringa whakataunga o t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga. Ae ka hoatu \u0113tahi w\u0101hi moni mai i t\u0113nei take, horekau he whiwhi i te take mai i ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau engari he aha ng\u0101 mea ka ngaro w\u0113r\u0101 wh\u0101nau? Kua k\u012B ahau, \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 mea, engari k\u0101ore e kore, ng\u0101 r\u0101 kei mua i a t\u0101tou ka \u0101ta ako m\u0101tou ka m\u0101rama m\u0101tou te h\u014Dhonutanga o \u0113nei poronga. N\u0101 te mea, aini ka rongo mai i ng\u0101 ratonga i roto i ng\u0101 hapori, ko wai r\u0101tou kahore i whiwhi moni ki te mahi w\u0101 r\u0101tou mahi hei p\u0101inga hei oranga m\u014D \u014D m\u0101tou hapori puta noa i Aotearoa. N\u014D reira ka hoki an\u014D ahau ki \u0113nei pukapuka me te \u0101ta p\u0101nui, \u0101ta wetewete i \u0113nei k\u014Drero kia kite i te h\u014Dhonutanga o te tango i t\u0113nei ringa ki te hoatu i t\u0113nei ringa. N\u014D reira kahore ahau e tautoko ana i t\u0113nei n\u0101 te mea he h\u0113 ng\u0101 whakaaro o t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[Thank you, dear Speaker. Thank you for giving five minutes to me to say what I think about this Budget and the little money that is given to families. The matter at hand for this bill is, yes, this Government. This hand allocates a sum of money to the families. But this hand removes it. That is what I see within this Budget. Yes, this hand allocates some money, and this hand takes it. What else do I see? Taking away money for medicine\u2014that has been removed. That is an integral part of the people\u2019s wellbeing. That is indeed a big deal in my region of the Northland area, but this Budget, and this tax system, I shall say, gives to this side and takes from this hand. Another matter is removing funding to support families to buy a home\u2014their first home. That has also been removed. Therefore, there is money been given to this hand, and taken away from this. The lunches in schools, a sandwich, a biscuit only maybe. It is not the most nutritious. That has now changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWithin the subject of our kids, they want to allocate this money via taxes to the families, but then take away however many millions of dollars from the children and the child services such as Oranga Tamariki. I don\u2019t agree with that. I see a few pictures here, this afternoon. And what has been said? I don\u2019t want this Budget from this Government. What I want is to care for our grandchildren. Give it to the hospitals, to the schools, to the policeman, all of them. That is what I see for this Budget. But there is not enough funding for all of those services. Other matters include taking money away that support our M\u0101ori people, M\u0101ori services, M\u0101ori initiatives. I am looking within this book for the part that supports that. I know, it has been given to the rich, the home investors: $2.9 billion given. But the M\u0101ori services, nothing; there is money here for that. These are the decisions by the Government. What they want to support\u2014but hasn\u2019t been agreed to. There is a lot in that Budget that has been removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to speak to other matters made by this Government. Yes, there is money given from this tax, nothing given for families, but what do those families lose out on? I have said some of these; however, no doubt the future will show us the true consequences of these actions, because soon we will hear from the services, within the communities, who didn\u2019t receive money to do what they need to do to benefit the wellbeing of all communities in Aotearoa. And so I will return to this book and carefully read through, scrutinise what has been written to see the true consequences of taking from one hand to give to the other hand. Therefore, I do not support this because this Government is wrong.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b76c37e223004f9fbeaf51eb4e67c69c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b76c37e223004f9fbeaf51eb4e67c69c\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to talk about the actual bill that we\u2019re here to talk about tonight: the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill. The previous speakers have been talking about M\u0101ori, inequality, housing, and the previous speaker, the Hon Willow-Jean Prime, was talking in te reo about giving with one hand and taking with another. Well, actually, this is just about allowing New Zealanders to keep more of their own money and getting Government out of the way. I ask myself, \u201CWhy didn\u2019t we do this 14 years ago?\u201D\u2014why didn\u2019t we do this? Fourteen years. And then I see we did under Sir Bill English and Steven Joyce. We actually did in 2017, but that Government reversed it. Well, here today, we\u2019re getting it back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00225947392115794967a27cfc01e1756546\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225947392115794967a27cfc01e1756546\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just was going to translate for some of the crew on the other side. What the Hon Willow-Jean Prime was saying was this was a rotten, useless Budget for M\u0101ori. So I just thought I\u2019d do that for you because I see some of you looking up in the air. It is probably the worst Budget for M\u0101ori in my lifetime. And I\u2019m looking on the other side and I\u2019m thinking, \u201CNow, which M\u0101ori are responsible for this on\u00A0the other side?\u201D You know, there\u2019s one or two there, not quite sure if they are M\u0101ori\u2014I\u2019ve heard them waffling on. Mr Meager doesn\u2019t know what day of the week it is when he\u2019s a M\u0101ori, even though he\u2019s the \u201Cgreat brown hope\u201D according to some of his mates in the media, but he\u2019s not quite sure of himself. He\u2019s like Seymour, who accidentally sort of found out about his M\u0101ori side, according to Winston Peters\u2014bit like Abel Tasman, I think Winston said, didn\u2019t he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut really, this is a shameful, shameful, Budget. We were doing the numbers, Madam Speaker\u2014it\u2019s good to see you there, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235b71d9835ff4f34b51ad0d866a5ce0b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s good to hear you talking about the numbers, Mr Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7c8ad15c6864444a7e247ffed238380\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019m absolutely talking about the tax bill\u2014absolutely, this is all about the tax bill, Madam Speaker. Totally reject this tax bill because we know what they\u2019ve done in terms of financing everything. They\u2019ve looked after their rich friends with $2.9 billion, and they\u2019ve kicked all the M\u0101ori people in their guts all around the country. Now I\u2019m looking over there; I look at the Hon Mark Mitchell. Now, M\u0101ori had some hope for him, but now he just wants to lock us all up and do his hard-on-crime thing. I\u2019m looking across, I can\u2019t see any hope. Tama Potaka should hang his head in shame after this pathetic\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5480a0b7df44bd7b5e07184d384983c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hey, hey\u2014how about we don\u2019t do too much personal stuff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022707fdf0a8d0444da9dd4c7854fa9b5ed\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t help it, Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204610a69e45040bd9c33fbb350f2064f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know, but I\u2019m going to have to sit you down if you get too personal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6cccf874ded45acaa2e6708b797161f\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ll get off that then, Madam Speaker. But I was going through how they funded this in terms of tax, and I saw a cut of $40 million in terms of M\u0101ori housing\u2014$40\u00A0million. By M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori solutions has been a huge success\u2014we had Minister Potaka up there on the East Coast. Sadly, that\u2019s been cut. Also a cut of $20\u00A0million in terms of rangatahi\u2014young people\u2014transitional housing; massive cuts in terms of the homeless action plan; M\u0101ori development budget cut by $9 million. And this other side are very proud of this\u2014$43 million of increased funding for core services. Basically, the Government is robbing H\u014Dne to give to Peter and Paul\u2014that\u2019s very, very clear. They\u2019re giving a pitiful tax cut with one hand and mugging you with the other hand. See, what\u2019s the point of a $12-a-week tax cut\u2014see, I\u2019m coming on to the tax cuts\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236986ed8e11848ddab829523a76a6c9d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288a492f9902f4c85aa108b0c74fa453a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019m doing that for you, Madam Speaker. What\u2019s the point of a $12-a-week tax cut if you have to pay $13-a-week in terms of transport for your kids? That\u2019s all we\u2019re talking about here. [Interruption] Yeah, that\u2019s right. Then the changes will leave beneficiaries behind; almost 30,000 more job losses\u2014that\u2019s not particularly successful; more kids into poverty; the Prime Minister is getting twice the tax cut that the minimum-wage earner gets. And they\u2019re calling this a success. But it upsets me that when I look at the, you know, the \u201Cpride and joy of M\u0101oridom\u201D over there, Mr Meager, you should have done a lot better on this. You know, we\u2019ve got a lot of hope for you and the media puts you up there as a \u201Cgreat brown hope\u201D, and you should have done a lot better for us here, but you\u2019ve done nothing. M\u0101ori trades training\u2014M\u0101ori trades training has been a huge success. You know, Mr Mitchell knows about that; he\u2019s about around that age group when it first came out, he knows all about it. Mr Mitchell knows all about M\u0101ori trades training\u2014huge success. Gone, gone, everything gone, so they can look after their rich mates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENow a disabled person will be up to $256 per fortnight\u2014or $5,742 a year\u2014worse off because of the Government\u2019s changes to disability support, public transport subsidies, benefit injection, the minimum wage, and promised prescription charges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255c7e7cd04b6488fb9fba00305863a32\u0022\u003EHon Jo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265df787afd5a4bb386b6201cb6a0ae15\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is shameful. And they\u2019re all patting themselves on the back today, clapping their leader. How can you be so proud of something that has been so unsuccessful? They don\u2019t have money for the environment, renters, and beneficiaries, but they do have money for their rich landlords. This is a landlords, landlords, landlords Budget. Shame on a lot of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENow, on the three official child poverty measures: for the first, there\u2019s no forecast of future numbers; on the second, the numbers will stay the same; and on the third, they will rise. So child poverty will stagnate or worsen\u2014we already know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263164970fb3b47fb8e21e646cd9e15aa\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Did it get worse under your watch, Willie?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b624ac6b777d4f0fafcd982e53ec31f3\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e92ea83ddff46028dd90d33ff40a495\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Did it get worse under your watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb20806621c64d78a6fb556fd7d5d9a5\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I couldn\u2019t quite pick that up. But all I know is that is the ACT Party, whose priority are their rich mates, not the workers out there, not the M\u0101ori nation, certainly not the struggling. Now, the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update 2024 projects the economy to come out of recession and then growth to drop downwards 3.2\u00A0percent in 2026, 2.9 percent in 2027, 2.7 percent in 2028. So where\u2019s the rise in the growth? Where\u2019s the vision from a Government that cares beyond their donors and rich landlord mates? That\u2019s the question. They seem to think that a $12 tax cut for minimum-wage earners and 40 bucks for median-wage earners will make the electorate forget about the Government\u2019s climate-destroying, bashing agenda because we know where it\u2019s all at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThings are not going well for this Government. I mean, they\u2019re even down on the Roy Morgan poll. Madam Speaker. This is a poll\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eda03bf8d2ea4fe1a9babecc55f40d0a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a different set of numbers, Mr Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222d271730966403d9883ce8efcbdb4bd\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, is that a different set of numbers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db7cf63b78954a9892ee29aba6a98ef7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022007ad214c566453889c2b68ed066c491\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Right, come back to it. But, really, this is a tax bribe; not one cent\u2014see, when I talk about funding, when we were looking at the Budget today, we found in Minister Potaka\u2019s budget that he was $90 million down in terms of M\u0101ori development\u2014$90 million down. That\u2019s terrible for the M\u0101ori development budget when you have M\u0101ori development funded at around about $600 million a year. So he\u2019s $90\u00A0million down, but they\u2019ve said to him, \u201COh, well, we\u2019re giving you a bit of extra money for those haka people, Tama. So you should be happy now.\u201D And so those dancing M\u0101oris have got a few more dollars, and so Tama\u2019s really happy with that. Meanwhile, funding\u2019s been cut right across the spectrum. I like Tama very much, but shame on him and shame on the other M\u0101ori members across the House when you\u2019re down $90 million in the M\u0101ori affairs portfolio. But then when we did the numbers right across the spectrum\u2014former Minister Megan Woods did some wonderful work in the housing area. Very, very happy with what she did. [Interruption] These idiots can laugh, but we know we\u2019ve built more houses\u2014more houses\u2014than anyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e16528e4d54c328cbb3cfa81ada0ca\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210dfae42738545d2a260d93ad1d8859f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got a point of order from Stuart Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a137bbe0c2740d5bbc575812c51e315\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down, Stuart Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b4a82c0b7bb4103b7488d80ff897741\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I\u2019ve got a point of order from Stuart Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cdfad37d2344522aebe2e63a1e77f70\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, he\u2019s using irony in the House\u2014is that allowed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cee95c5101cc44c49a792b60e376acf9\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think, actually, we might all just calm down a little bit because there was a lot of shouting going on backwards and forwards. And if you want me to hear Mr Jackson using irony, we\u2019ll just take the tone down a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be2c337efa944ea3b15774c5dd0d3abe\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: OK, well, I mean, Stuart Smith is the irony, if we really want to be clear about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4d8d55cc4b54865ab38c17da3189c8c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, that\u2019s personal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273506a72011d47289ce210c0a9e0c2bd\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s quite a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0bd23d23bcd4894991ba53a2e8ec5d4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Keep going with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222727068142c94ffe91c9cb44404d2bf2\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I want it to be personal, Madam Speaker. He is irony.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f031320ee3da4b4e9c61faffa4c04b69\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. It\u2019s \u201CMr Irony\u201D, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e640d16785c44f1867756861732e020\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a719c0310744659a0b3901c6abaae5\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Madam Speaker. I know that there\u2019s banter in the House, but this is a serious matter. I don\u2019t think that that member\u2019s use of a point of order is appropriate in this debate, and I would prefer you to be able to rule on the appropriateness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225efbd70d153c40318680250ba891db5d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s relevant, thank you. We\u2019ll have no more points of order on that matter. And we\u2019ll have everything in the space of the numbers regarding the Budget from Mr Jackson for the next 1\u00BD minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212fcc7b6aaf84135bbef33979f678480\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, it\u2019s very, I suppose, disappointing, for us. As I said, $90 million has been lost in the name of tax cuts in terms of M\u0101ori development, but actually $300 million has been lost in terms of M\u0101ori funding right across the spectrum. This was picked up in the media conference today by Claudette Hauiti, rejected by the Minister of Finance, but never have we seen in a Budget M\u0101ori funding go back so much\u2014$300 million. We will get the story out there\u2014they can reject it all they like and confuse the silly M\u0101oris in their party and say, \u201COh, you got the kapa haka money.\u201D, but we actually know how to read Budgets and $300 million is a kick in the guts for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EYou saw the level of protests today: thousands and thousands of M\u0101ori\u2014thousands of them\u2014are hitting the streets because they see these sell-outs on the other side and they\u2019ve had enough. This is going to be a very, very short term for this useless, race-baiting, right-wing Government who don\u2019t care about M\u0101ori, who don\u2019t care about workers, who are just focused on their rich mates, and we\u2019re looking forward to the next poll. Kia ora, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022353fbb220ddb492dacdf8cb85689391e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022353fbb220ddb492dacdf8cb85689391e\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I wanted to say to the Pakuranga couple right now at home watching this live on TV, to Yali and Issac: thank you for sending me your screenshot and telling me your plan for the annual saving of $3,029 that we have announced for you and your family today. Thank you. Thank you for telling me that you will be able to get your sons\u2014your two children\u2014to two extracurricular activities every week and take them to the zoo. But you know what? Don\u2019t thank us. Members on this side of the House want to say thank you for voting for us and giving us your trust to be the responsible Government for your hard-earned money. So, with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022954fc2d8d4d44837bc6cd243002700a5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000592\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022276c36c80e6540a284c463006d9d33cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022276c36c80e6540a284c463006d9d33cd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for the consideration of the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260a09f6fe90c4b9c8a86927a2fcb9af1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c5fa761b3234db0b6171def38374296\u0022\u003EPart 1  Income Tax Act 2007 amendments commencing 1 April 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002241d2c9b75c4f4d0d9db80b68873363f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241d2c9b75c4f4d0d9db80b68873363f0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill. Members, we start with the debate on Part 1, the debate on clauses 3 to 7, \u201CIncome Tax Act 2007 amendments commencing 1 April 2024\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022b438692962364872b4cb17779fe08a73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b438692962364872b4cb17779fe08a73\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab35340608014c4d9433dc28336a0a2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab35340608014c4d9433dc28336a0a2f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002203043e6d6e414d0293b7eb7112acebf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203043e6d6e414d0293b7eb7112acebf2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. There\u2019s a fair amount to absorb in this bill and we\u2019ve only had it in our hands for a few hours. I do appreciate the efforts to which the Government went to ensure that the bill was actually available to us from 2 p.m. So that was a generous gesture, and I think it has made\u2014well, it\u2019s still a lot to absorb in a few hours. We\u2019ve had a lot of conversation, in the last two readings of the bill, about the generalities of this bill, and it is trying to get into some of the specifics, which I\u00A0very much want to do now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EPart 1 amends the Income Tax Act 2007. I\u2019m just trying to find my way to clause 3 because I know I had something I wanted to ask about that clause 3. We\u2019re amending\u2014I\u00A0know it was\u2014oh, it must be clause 4. So there\u2019s a whole lot of stuff there in clause 4 where we\u2019re inserting new sections LC 14 and LC 15. Now, those sections of the Income Tax Act 2007 are to do with the various tax credits that are available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo LC 14 is the amount of the tax credit for independent earners for 1 April 2024 to 30\u00A0July 2024, and then new section LC 15 is the amount of the tax credit for independent earners for 31 July 2024 to 31 March 2025. These are really unusual dates. They are really unusual dates to appear in a tax bill. The dates are normally, like, you know, the first of a month or maybe the last day of a month, and the dates that we normally expect to see in an income tax bill are dates like, you know, 1 April, which is the first day of the tax year, or 31 March, the last day of the tax year. We might see dates like, maybe, you know, 1\u00A0October, because that\u2019s halfway through. So we\u2019d normally expect to see the beginning, the end, the quarters, but in this one\u2014so this is the tax credit that\u2019s available to independent earners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s a tax credit that\u2019s designed for people who are working. They\u2019re in what\u2019s called full-time\u2014you know, deemed to be full-time work. They\u2019re not on an especially high income; though, I note that now the independent earners tax rate will go up to\u2014it\u00A0only fully abates at, I think, $70,000. I\u2019ll have to check that with the Minister at some\u00A0stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e015eed5e62941c4a78ad915639d0441\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: $70,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4eb3f3e755b4098a49ecbdc4ea6ecc7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it abates up to $70,000. So what it\u2019s done is it\u2019s for people who get no other form of tax credit. They\u2019re not on benefit, they\u2019re not getting superannuation, they\u2019re not getting any of the other tax credits, and it just gives a little bit of extra to people who are, you know, earning their own income and it just gets them a little bit further along.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut the bit that\u2019s really curious is that date. It\u2019s a really, really unusual date. I\u2019d like the Minister to explain why that particular date has been chosen\u2014in new section LC 14, 1 April 2024 to 30 July 2024, and in LC 15, 31 July 2024 to 31 March 2025. So there\u2019s obviously all that sort of stuff going on in there. But, of course, those are dates that are related to a tax year. I guess the difficult or interesting thing was it will be in relation\u2014not just the particularly curious dates, but how it\u2019s going to work for someone who has an income year that is different from the standard tax year. So what dates are going to apply in that case? So that will make a bit of a difference as well. I sort of just want to see what the impact of the income year versus the tax year is there. So I\u2019d like the Minister to explain that. Is there somewhere else? We\u2019ve got some curious dates aligned to these curious dates\u2014which, you know, just to see why it\u2019s all set up that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister could explain, I would be very grateful to know exactly why, in this very first set of things we\u2019re debating, having a little bit of a look at, we\u2019ve got those very, very unusual dates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229b56b6504c4b4f489c4b539cda89663f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b56b6504c4b4f489c4b539cda89663f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on Part 1 of the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill. Mr Chair, I know this is in urgency and we haven\u2019t had a select committee, so you\u2019ll forgive me for asking questions that also would have been of the nature that we would have had answers to in a select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I was interested in, in Part 1, whether a distributional impact analysis had been done around the changes to independent earners. This is something that I\u2019ll seek answers to in other parts of the bill, but if there\u2019s anything to the provisions in Part 1, that would be quite useful. The reason why I\u2019m asking is because this bill, altogether, has been touted as a cost of living relief bill, and I think it\u2019s important to get a sense of what level of analysis the Minister received when it came to the distributional impacts. I know that in Part 1, we\u2019re mostly talking about independent earners and the changes around that, but, at the end of the day, that is still a section of the population that is worth considering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAlso, around the changes to the abatement rate, I did want to get a sense of whether any exploration had been done around other parts of the system and how those interact\u2014say, for example, if somebody\u2019s receiving an accommodation supplement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen the other thing on Part 1 that I want to test is whether there had been anything in relation to a child impact assessment. We have received, in the overall Budget, information regarding child poverty levels, but, obviously, as part of any legislation process there is the ability to seek advice on how a piece of legislation may impact children very specifically. I\u2019m curious to know whether a child impact assessment\u2014which is a tool that could be used, for example, at a select committee stage\u2014was used, and, if so, I\u2019m keen to get the Minister\u2019s analysis around exactly how he thinks Part 1 would impact children specifically. I know that we can use this tool for any type of legislation, but obviously legislation that has to do with income and tax has quite a direct impact on children\u2019s livelihoods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen the other thing I\u2019d like to ask is in relation to distributional analysis. I\u2019m keen to get a sense around whether he received advice around how many people in the country are within that range of that $0 to $14,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI did want to check whether, for example, he received any advice from Whaikaha around disabled people with carers or people who may not even be eligible to income support who are disabled\u2014for example, people who are in a relationship with someone who has an income yet will not be eligible to any income support, and therefore won\u2019t necessarily receive an income. I wanted to check whether he sought any advice from Whaikaha around how disabled people would feature alongside these changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00229b21511c6cff4f1cabe18130da6454cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b21511c6cff4f1cabe18130da6454cc\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m seeking to engage with the Minister of Revenue in a back-and-forth line of questions about this Part 1, particularly clause 4 and the dates in that clause. May I, first, ask the Minister: will people receive this benefit on 31 July?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002208c623bf56994364bca513b60e830127\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208c623bf56994364bca513b60e830127\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve got two quite specific questions for the Minister in the chair, Simon Watts, that and it would be useful for us to get an answer reasonably early on so we can get on to further lines of questioning. The first that I want to ask the Minister\u2014and apologies if it is in some of the regulatory impact statement work and we haven\u2019t had a chance to uncover it yet, but, of course, any tax changes that have the impact of, effectively, raising people\u2019s incomes will have flow-on Government savings, in terms of the eligibility for other benefits, for example. So, across Government spending, what other incomes that are assessed after tax income will there be savings on, and has it been calculated what the net cost to Government will be with those savings factored in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other question I have for the Minister relates to clause 7(1) of the bill, with Table 1, which has some very unusual tax rates through there\u2014nothing that meshes with what our effective tax rates are in New Zealand, or, indeed, our marginal tax rates. We\u2019re seeing some tax rates of things like 12c\u2014that is not a tax rate in New Zealand, so I would like to know from the Minister why it is that these have been calculated in this way, and why they\u2019re appearing in this table with these very unusual rates that don\u2019t correlate to the New Zealand tax system. Is it something to do with the date of introduction? Is it an averaging out because this is coming in? As my colleagues have pointed out, there\u2019s some unusual dates that we\u2019re not used to seeing in tax legislation in this bill. So is there something to do with the fact that it\u2019s needing to smooth out what isn\u2019t correlating to what we\u2019d see as the normal run of a tax year? Very interested to find out the answer to that and also what the effective savings to Government are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022133b98bef0e14b94ad668c0bd003d939\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022133b98bef0e14b94ad668c0bd003d939\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, members, for those questions. I\u2019ll come first to Arena Williams\u2019 question. The answer is yes to your point around 31 July. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Deborah Russell and the Hon Dr Megan Woods both had questions in regard to dates. The key objective of this coalition Government is to effect and implement the changes in the income tax rules as soon as practicable, but one of the practical considerations around that is the time that it would take for payroll providers and other large entities that play a role in regards to that because of, obviously, the Budget sensitivity considerations\u2014to ensure that they were set up to be able to effect those changes. The practical time period which we felt was appropriate, in conjunction with feedback from them, was the period of three months, and hence why it is the date of 31\u00A0July. So it\u2019s simply a reflection of the practicality of allowing the broader system to be prepared to implement the change while acknowledging that the key objective of providing tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders is to deal with and provide them with that relief as soon as possible to alleviate the issues that they\u2019re facing under the cost of living crisis, and so the balancing of those two aspects was pretty central. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EIn regards to questions from Ricardo Men\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f0b102eac7249e582753f80d2b61cdf\u0022\u003E\u00E9ndez March around the child poverty reduction impacts, the modelling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022608ee31efd704ad19d284a84d38bd9b2\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Child impact assessment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220242d5c335364644a68a09a4a0e74b81\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, yep\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022717df63138df47849dd4df1777a88640\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s its own thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb0a86e581d548159d38c619fbdcc2cb\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, child impact\u2014OK, right. Well, I\u2019ll come back to the member in regards to that. The Treasury\u2019s model cannot forecast the material hardship considerations, but there was a broader assessment, which the Minister of Finance noted today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI think another question was in regards to distributional impacts as well, and Treasury have made some broader comments around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere were also some questions in regards to some of the abatement rates, I think. I wasn\u2019t necessarily sure exactly what the member was referring to, but in regards to the practical considerations around how the abatement thresholds would operate, they are consistent conceptually with the prior way in which abatement thresholds operate\u2014i.e.,\u00A0they abate the closer one gets to the maximum threshold. That is consistent; we\u2019ve simply just moved the threshold numbers around. So the overall methodology of an abatement has not changed; it is just the base numbers which we have utilised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s pretty much the questions that I\u2019ve got. I think there was one more from the Hon Dr Megan Woods, and I\u2019ll come back to you, now that I\u2019ve just thought of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022caa3bab122d1434d86ef81c8644b1d95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022caa3bab122d1434d86ef81c8644b1d95\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just remind all parties that the preferred, but not mandated, way of doing this is to do a question and answer, as indicated by Arena Williams. However, I am aware that it takes all parties to indulge in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00220817fd5648314d6388e1cff0a3048719\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220817fd5648314d6388e1cff0a3048719\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. Given the Minister\u2019s answer to my question\u2014yes, people will receive this benefit from 31 July\u2014and he also elaborated a little in his answer on his preparations with payment providers. My second question is: given that he said it\u2019s three months, that doesn\u2019t seem to allow three months for the passage of this bill should he not accept my amendment which would extend this for another month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThen my next question for him is: if people do not receive the benefits on 31 July, will they be eligible for back payments? So I guess my fourth question for the Minister is: has he done any thinking around how people will receive back payments and whether it will be necessary to prepare his officials to engage with something like that being needed, given that his dates are incredibly tight in the legislation he\u2019s introduced to the House today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022650f4a1ff054419daac96cdb9e207394\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022650f4a1ff054419daac96cdb9e207394\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Look, I hear the member, but, as I\u2019ve articulated, the coalition Government\u2019s priority is to actually deliver tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders as fast as practical. An amendment which is going to look to extend that time in order to provide that tax relief doesn\u2019t seem to correlate with the intent of getting those payments out there as fast as practical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019ve outlined there clearly is we have undertaken assessment of the time it would take to practically make those payments. We\u2019ve got an assessment around that time. That date is as of 31\u00A0July; that is practical. We\u2019ve got confidence that we can deliver upon that and we will deliver upon that. So I\u2019m not going to be accepting an amendment that looks to extend that further out into time. That just simply wouldn\u2019t make any sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8c5c423157e4542af4cc9f37c295873\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Megan Woods. Sorry, she didn\u2019t stand up. The Hon Deborah Russell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002256d58e07dbdf4bf1916ce297613baba1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256d58e07dbdf4bf1916ce297613baba1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Mr Chair. I mean, I do really admire my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods, but we are different people. I want to continue to focus on this commencement date of 31 July. Now, the Minister has given, as the reason for commencing this towards the end of July, early August, whenever\u2014it\u00A0was to do with payroll providers and whether or not they could get their systems into place and up and running in time to be able to deliver the changes to the income tax thresholds and the changes to the independent earner tax credit and the changes to all the things that get changed when you change tax rates around. But 31\u00A0July is still a really odd\u00A0date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022496286c30cba4b149be8a32b9f76ae30\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ab7dec3c2a3447796b5df66df0ddf18\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a very odd date. It\u2019s very odd because, as I said before, when tax threshold changes go through, they normally go through from the first of a month, right? That would be sort of the usual and regular thing to do. Not only that, they normally go through from the start of a quarter, at least\u2014or I can recall changes that have gone through on 1 October, or changes that have gone through on 1 April, and so on. But 31 July is a very unusual date. So I thought, well, maybe it\u2019s to do with the day of the week or something like that, but 31 July is a Wednesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c55c66759d964e48b4c94cb25670be6e\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Minister\u2019s birthday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cab54dda69d4fbea53d0997ebeae3a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t work it out. Again, you might think it might go from a standard work week or something like that\u2014though, there is really no such thing. But it seems like an odd date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, I get the explanation that was given that was to do with finding a date that payroll providers could work to, but why not 1 August? I\u2019m serious about this. Or why not a date that corresponded with the start of a week or something like that? He has not yet explained why this very, very odd date. It is unusual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo I get the lead time. I get that. That\u2019s an issue. So there is this date around this\u2014very\u00A0unusual date. I would like to hear an explanation for why 31 July as opposed to 28\u00A0July or 3 August or whatever\u2014you know, something around there. There must be a reason for it\u00A0other than that someone stuffed their finger in their ear and thought that would be a good\u00A0date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to know a little bit more about the payroll providers too, because, again, I get that third-party payroll providers do take time and effort to get those changes through. There is a lead time associated with making tax threshold changes. There are complex systems that need to be worked through in order to get those changes in place. I know that Inland Revenue has extensive experience in working around tax threshold changes. There\u2019s a lot of knowledge around about how to do it. We kind of know what the lead times more or less are. But in terms of third-party payroll providers, there\u2019s the third-party payroll providers, which the Minister referred to, himself, but I was also wondering, it\u2019s not just the third-party payroll providers; it\u2019s some of the really, really big employers we have within Government, all right? So if we think about some of our Government entities, there\u2019s employers like the ministry of social welfare, there\u2019s the Ministry of Social Development, there are employers like IRD itself, there is K\u0101inga Ora\u2014who else has got a huge payroll? Defence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221cce5131eac4e4fbda3dad10df37570\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Well, not many now, because they\u2019ve all been cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202d6e46321a44a83a66c30645e185a28\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, payrolls\u2014but some of these entities actually have very, very large payrolls themselves. So, obviously, the Minister consulted, or his officials, with third-party payroll providers, but I wonder if the Minister could tell us about what consultation was undertaken with some of these very, very large employers who do their payroll themselves, because that\u2019s what they do, you know, within the Government themselves, and what consultation was there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI just want to remind people, of course, for the obvious reason, that we haven\u2019t had a select committee stage on this, that this is our chance to examine some of these sorts of issues. So I really would like us to have an answer to these and a bit of reassurance, actually, that they have spoken to them. I get that the Minister will be confident that the payroll providers have said they can do it by this date. What I want to know is that other large employers can also get these payments, these new tax thresholds into place by that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8d08a2213044cc0800c1f29ba3c2953\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8d08a2213044cc0800c1f29ba3c2953\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got a question that has been perplexing me, and I\u2019d really like to know if the Minister has turned his mind to it. It is to do with new section LC 14, \u201CAmount of tax credit for independent earners for 1 April 2024 to 30 July 2024\u201D, which is inserted by clause 4. Subsection (2) talks about the formula being a \u201C(person\u2019s credit \u2212 full year abatement) \u00D7 credit period days \u00F7 365.\u201D There is also a reference in subsection (5) to the tax year; in subsection (6) to the tax year, the tax credit tax year; and then in subsection (6), \u201C Credit period days is the number of whole days in the credit period.\u201D, and then it says, \u201CDefined in this Act:\u201D and it talks about the tax year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, this is very specific to a period of time before we get to the beginning of the financial year and my colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell has referred to payroll systems and the mechanisation of some of these formulas. We have seen, in Health New Zealand\u2019s payroll system, and also in education, years and years of problems with not being able to determine payroll-type situations because of mechanisation and because the systems have not been able to allow for shift work and so on. So when I ask this question, it\u2019s very genuine. We\u2019re talking about a very specific period of time. This is a leap year. There are 366 days. This credit period here says \u201C365\u201D. Now, I know that it\u2019s not the whole year, but if we are talking about a defined period of time in the Act, then it would seem out of fairness and accuracy we should have actually had 366\u00A0days. So I\u2019m curious to know why the Minister has opted for 365.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EDid anybody actually turn their mind to this, and is it something that you would normally turn your mind to, and, if not, why not? The reality is that we\u2019re in a leap year and this is a real calculation that people will be doing on their earnings. We know that the Inland Revenue Department tries to be as fair as possible. I know, for example, that sometimes people have got tax returns sent back to them. In the old days, people would get a cheque for 39c in the mail to say, \u201CThis is your fair entitlement.\u201D That is how fair the Inland Revenue likes to be, because this is about numbers\u2014numbers are accurate\u2014and I do not understand why, in a leap year for a specific period of time under new section LC 14, there would be a reference to 365 days to do a calculation that is somehow going to be wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIs that fair? Did the Minister turn his mind to it? Did he seek advice on it, and will the systems that are used to calculate this be able to do so in a fair way given the realities of the fact that we have an extra day this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022251a670033fc46eeb828c01e460af946\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022251a670033fc46eeb828c01e460af946\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am conscious that I am repeating myself, but I will for the final time in regards to this date, because the date seems to be quite complexing for members of the Opposition. The date that was chosen will facilitate the fastest period of time in which this coalition Government can deliver tax relief to hard-working Kiwis. The consultation that we undertook, including with the Ministry of Social Development, including with ACC, including with the Ministry of Health, and all of those large Government departments indicated to us that that date period would provide them with adequate time in order to ensure that they could make those changes. So we did undertake consultation with large Government departments, which was a question from the Hon Dr Deborah Russell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect in regards to payroll providers\u2014yes, we did consult with them. Their feedback to us was that 31 July was a sensible period of time for them to effect the changes. So on that basis, that\u2019s why we put in place this date. We have not had changes in tax thresholds since 1 October 2010. So the criticality of getting these tax changes in play, into the back pockets of hard-working Kiwis as fast as is practical, is what\u2019s driving this Government. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s unreasonable. Actually, I think that\u2019s quite practical. That\u2019s why, on this side of the House, we are a practical Government. We\u2019re trying to get in place these tax changes as fast as possible, and that\u2019s all we\u2019re doing. That\u2019s all we\u2019ve done. I\u2019m not sure where the Opposition is coming from in terms of asking why we don\u2019t take longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf0614e4f7b643f38b65636d290d5bab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf0614e4f7b643f38b65636d290d5bab\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do want to remind the Minister the Hon Simon Watts that he hasn\u2019t as yet answered my colleague Megan\u00A0Woods\u2019 question about clause 7. The standard income tax rates\u201410.5 percent, 17.5\u00A0percent, 30 percent, 33 percent, and 39 percent\u2014are the tax rates that sit in the income tax scale as it is at present, and the income tax scale as is going to be proposed by this bill.\u00A0Those are the numbers you\u2019d expect to see in the legislation, but if we go to Schedule 1, the income tax rates we see there are 10.5 percent\u2014well, it\u2019s expressed as 0.1050. Putting this in percentages, it\u2019s 12.82 percent. That\u2019s neither 10.5 nor 17.5, or anything like that. Then it\u2019s 17.5. Then the next tax rate there is 21.64 percent. It\u2019s like the unusual date; these are unusual numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAnyone looking at this bill would be looking to see the standard tax rates, and they\u2019d look at this and they\u2019d go, \u201CWhy are these numbers sitting in there?\u201D The next one is 30\u00A0 percent. That\u2019s a standard tax rate; we\u2019ve had that in place for a long time. But then the next one is 30.99. So you sort of think, \u201CWhere has that number come from?\u201D I\u2019m going to hazard a guess as to why it\u2019s there. It\u2019s because they\u2019ve got this unusual start date, and so there is something going on there. But I would like to know where the Minister gets those numbers. Again, I just want to know where those unusual numbers do actually come from. Now, this is a question that my colleague Megan Woods asked, and it hasn\u2019t been answered as yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESitting in the same sort of space\u2014and this one has really got me curious, because actually I couldn\u2019t work this one out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c0a589ae01a4eeaae6d00e47f3fb779\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re a curious person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acea78738e78490d9e8abed304e2233f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I am a curious person. We\u2019re told that these new tax rates are coming in from 31 July, but if we go to clause 6\u2014now, we haven\u2019t discussed clause 6 yet, so I would like to have a look at clause 6\u2014clause 6 concerns fringe benefit tax (FBT). Actually, the numbers around fringe benefit tax are quite confusing in themselves, and we haven\u2019t discussed this yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe way FBT is calculated is rather complex, but the bit that really gets me, and that I\u00A0find really curious, is that sitting in the commentary on clause 6\u2014now, this is sitting in the bill commentary\u2014it says that it\u2019s going to start in place from 1 April 2024. Now, the commencement date itself is interesting, but there must be a mathematical reason for that, or some reason why the FBT rates are going to start from that particular date. It must be to do with their relationship to the income tax rates, and the timing of the year, and things like that. So I would like to have a little bit of a discussion from the Minister as to that relationship of the FBT rates to the income tax rates, and in particular, again, that date\u2014why 1 April 2024 when the rest of it is 30 July?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAgain, there\u2019s a disparity there. I would like the Minister to explain why it\u2019s there and, if he could, I think, especially those questions that my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods raised. They have not been answered yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229cfc650cd4de4b8fb9dede02067f0ad0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cfc650cd4de4b8fb9dede02067f0ad0\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much to the member for those questions. Going back to the original questions by the Hon Megan Wood\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238512b65d5bb429ebadb62705c5e3a95\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Woods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289f9bb07ef5c47399cf7aa55b7270d39\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Woods; sorry, the Hon Megan Woods\u2014about why the rates are a little bit different, well, the member the Hon Dr Deborah Russell actually answered the question. It\u2019s because there are, in effect, two sets of rates in one year, and as you\u2019d expect, we need to do a composite set of rates to take into account to get the full-year effect. So what you\u2019re seeing in that table is the composite set of those two rates. The Inland Revenue Department has calculated those, and that is the method behind that table. So I hope that covers off that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOn the question in regards to fringe benefit tax (FBT)\u2014if I recall rightly\u2014there have been changes to the FBT thresholds, which will flow through from 1 April 2025. There is a technical change in regards to the attribution calculation in the area of the way in which FBT is calculated, and some of those changes will apply from 1 April 2024. This change simply refers to the fact that the employers are paying the correct amount of FBT given the changes that apply to personal income tax rates for FBT. So they apply from different dates. That\u2019s the reason why you\u2019re seeing the implication in regards to those aspects in the FBT aspect of the calculation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00226ee5ddeb85544cfdbba8f1b8c0271b8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ee5ddeb85544cfdbba8f1b8c0271b8d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E A couple of questions following on there. I just want the Minister to clarify, because I\u2019m assuming it was a slip of the tongue, because he said those fringe benefit tax rates\u2014if we check the Hansard you\u2019ll see that this is what he said\u2014was that applied from 1 April 2025. But I would like to clarify that that was just a slip of the tongue because the bill commentary that I was discussing in relation to clause 6 does say 1 April 2024. So I\u2019m hoping that was just a slip of the tongue. So that was a very simple question. So just that very simple question there, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fedad8f99ce4c83b779ef1c3d3f0149\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I know that the Minister in the chair, Simon Watts, has been taking advice back and forth, so this is not with the aim of sounding repetitive, but I am interested, in Part 1, whether a child impact assessment had been done, and I also wanted to understand whether any conversations had been held with Whaikaha. Again, I know the advisers are kind of moving back and forth, so I just want to make sure some of those things don\u2019t get lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EOn the independent earner tax credit, I did want to ask whether he had seen any evidence about whether the effective marginal tax rate generated by an abatement rate of 13c in the dollar for the independent tax credit as a result of also changing the abatement rate of the Working for Families credit and, potentially, the accommodation supplement\u2014I think what I\u2019m going at here is around\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8690c7174a448c2bb2f5cf52288afa1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the member to get closer to the microphone. We\u2019re having trouble hearing you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee29afe733de4b24bea84031a45732c9\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Of course I can, sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb7bd47553994993a4a0e8856655ea6c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: And maybe just slow down a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a85dcfaad111439d8385ddcd365c9fd0\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. Look, I\u2019m trying to use the time, and, you know, as a member who, I think, tries to not repeat points, I\u2019m trying to fit in as many questions as I can, but thank you, Mr Chair. So I wanted to get a sense of the interactions between the abatement rate and the independent earner tax credit in relationship to other parts of the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other question I had was\u2014and I know the dates have been traversed, but around the distributional analysis, and, again, that hasn\u2019t really been touched on. I know there\u2019s been a lot of commentary in the media around, for example, superannuants not being particularly better off as a result of this bill, but going back to the personal income tax threshold changes, I did want to get a sense around, you know, whether he has confidence that this bill in isolation isn\u2019t actually leaving those lower-income earners behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI go back to my point. We\u2019ve seen the Budget analysis on child poverty rates, but there are child poverty implications with, particularly, the tax threshold changes and including, potentially, the independent earner tax credit. This is why I want to expand on why I\u2019m focusing on the impact of children in this legislation, because we haven\u2019t really received a super thorough analysis around the impact on children in this legislation alone. I know we\u2019ve been encouraged to think on the impact on children in the whole Budget, but the Minister has yet to address my point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI want to go back: this is not around child poverty in and of itself; this is also very specifically to whether the Minister requested a child impact assessment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe6f534d0624c45b4b0feeb38faee42\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E So the answer to the member\u2019s question is, no, we didn\u2019t look at the child impact assessment implications in regards to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question from the Hon Dr Deborah Russell, what I was referring to is that, normally, the next time the fringe benefit tax charges would take effect is from 1\u00A0April 2025, but the changes in regards to the attribution model changes, because of the changes we\u2019ve made to the personal income tax, will be from 1 April 2024, and so that was the context in which I was outlining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002240b9b40026884ef1b5db764f639ec86c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240b9b40026884ef1b5db764f639ec86c\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2c03a3588294a7c96604672cba4eded\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2c03a3588294a7c96604672cba4eded\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: There is quite a lot of material that still needs to be covered, so I will not be taking a closure motion at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00226fd3ebda5e3941a99983287f9c2b7967\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fd3ebda5e3941a99983287f9c2b7967\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. One of the things that I\u2019m interested in\u2014again, apologies to the Minister if it is in some of the associated materials; we haven\u2019t got to it yet but maybe the Minister, either himself or through his officials, can point us to where that analysis is in the accompanying documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we heard today, where the Government announced the tax measures that are covered out in Part 1, which lays out the rates of these taxes with a number of scenarios\u2014and in some cases, the number of families and individuals that would benefit from different scenarios within the tax package that is in this bill. So what we heard was that average income households would receive tax relief of up to $102 a fortnight and eligible families would receive a FamilyBoost childcare payment of up to $150\u2014accepting that the child boost is in the next part of the bill, and I\u2019m not asking questions about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat I would like to know: was there modelling done on the number of families within a variety of different scenarios? So, for example, how many families will be receiving the maximum? Are there families that will be receiving the $250 a fortnight that was talked about on the election campaign? How many families will be receiving what the Minister indicated in her speech in the House today that these tax cuts would deliver of the $60 a fortnight? What are the brackets of numbers of families and individuals throughout the country, and has any analysis been done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI guess in many ways it flows on from some of the questions that my colleague Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March has been asking in terms of what this does in terms of the number of families in work and not in work, given there is a change to that in-work tax credit. Does that open up differentiation further between poverty levels between those families that are in work and not in work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo we would expect in select committee, this is just the kind of analysis that we\u2019d go through to look at what the distributional impacts would be across the number of households; whether there has been any geographic breakdown in terms of where it is that we will see the clusters of families that will be receiving either above average or below average tax relief\u2014well, it\u2019s not relief\u2014the tax cuts that are delivered through this package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo these are the kinds of things that I think that as a committee who is scrutinising this legislation in the absence of a select committee process; that in this committee of the whole House, these are just the kind of understandings that we as legislators need to know. Who is going to benefit? How many people are going to benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a08191695c4133bd5f06a82eee4d2a\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022073b932fed164485beec2574f34de871\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Where are they? We have members opposite who are saying \u201CEverybody.\u201D Well, let\u2019s see the modelling. Can the Minister please point to the modelling that shows us where \u201Ceverybody\u201D and how many\u2014are we talking households? Individuals? People? There are a lot of pieces of information that we need, and I would think that members opposite might be interested in knowing whether their constituents indeed are going to benefit or they are going to be worse off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo they\u2019re things on this side of the Chamber that we do need to understand, and we know that some of this must exist because the Minister used it in both media materials\u2014not this Minister, but the Minister of Finance today used it in both media presentations and press releases and speeches in the House when she talked about various scenarios. For some she gave numbers but not others, so we would be very interested in understanding what that looks like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002204b2c25bc1c945d393b36892e6f5493a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204b2c25bc1c945d393b36892e6f5493a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Just in response to the questions by the member: yes, a wide range of distributional impact analysis was undertaken in regards to the preparation of the scenarios and the different scenarios that you would expect to see across this Budget. A number of those specific scenarios was and is included within the fact sheet that has been provided out as part of the supporting material for this Budget, and there are circa nine examples there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EObviously you can\u2019t publish every single scenario because there\u2019s a wide range of those, but the member will know, no doubt, that that work has been undertaken and we\u2019ve published a number of those ones which provide a wide spectrum of range of how the impacts could be felt by different participants and different members of our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00220fc92333fd2748528a98846fbda8fd2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fc92333fd2748528a98846fbda8fd2e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. Thank you, and I thank the Minister for that answer. While I appreciate every piece of paper of analysis can\u2019t be tabled, but the Minister has confirmed to us that distributional analysis that does give some of that numerical breakdown exists. I\u2019d ask the Minister if he would table that so the committee could see it\u2014not the summaries that are in the fact sheets but the more detailed breakdown of the number of households. I think the committee would benefit from seeing that distributional breakdown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022beed279a55ac4c6fa16479983900a132\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022beed279a55ac4c6fa16479983900a132\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just speaking to the point of order, it appears the Minister does not have that document with him at the moment, but he might be able to table it at a future date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002228c4af0ce3d646b1b7eb367825ef5e0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228c4af0ce3d646b1b7eb367825ef5e0e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to follow on from my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods\u2019 contribution just now, and actually it is drawing a little bit on the contribution that was made in the second reading of the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill by my colleague the Hon Willie Jackson, when Mr Jackson raised a really valid concern around the impact of this Budget on M\u0101ori and to what extent this Budget had a M\u0101ori focus to it\u2014a M\u0101ori budget. In previous years, we\u2019ve had a M\u0101ori budget. We\u2019ve had analysis that shows the impact on M\u0101ori, and we don\u2019t seem to have had this time. There is clearly going to be an impact on M\u0101ori from these changes to the incomes tax thresholds and from the change to the independent earner tax credit, and from the changes to the family tax credit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m interested in knowing is, along with those distributional analyses of households and how households have been affected\u2014and the Minister has just told us that this work does exist, and so we will be seeking that work. If the Minister is able to table it at some stage\u2014obviously not now, but in the next day or two\u2014that would be fantastic; otherwise, at some stage soon. What I want to know from the Minister is: if there was an analysis done of that distributional impact to show whether there is a differential impact for M\u0101ori households, as opposed to other households, I think that\u2019s quite important for us to know. We know that there is a long history of M\u0101ori being treated unequally in this country, ranging back to the Depression, when M\u0101ori weren\u2019t eligible for a lot of the relief that was on offer then and were told to go back to their marae. So it remains an important question for us to understand whether these changes will equally benefit M\u0101ori. In addition to that, I think it would be useful to know whether there was an analysis of Pasifika families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, one of the difficult things around this is, of course, I\u2019m not sure that Inland Revenue (IR) collects ethnicity data, but there will be nevertheless analyses drawing on the data we have from Statistics New Zealand and the data we have within IR that should be able to give us some sort of understanding of the differential impact, if any, of the changes to the tax thresholds and the changes to the independent earner tax credit and the changes to the family tax credit on M\u0101ori and Pasifika households, as opposed to other households in our economy. I think it is quite important for us to understand that. At this stage, I guess, the Minister certainly won\u2019t have that in the Chamber, but if he could let me know whether or not that kind of distributional analysis exists\u2014and if not, why not? I would be curious to know about this. So that\u2019s one for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00228c82b44edbef4e62a81a8c84c061fcc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c82b44edbef4e62a81a8c84c061fcc7\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I wanted to follow up with some questions on the distributional analysis of options that was presented in the regulatory impact statement. I take his point that not all of the advice has been published, but, in the interest of transparency and the commitment\u2014in the coalition agreement that he\u2019s got with the other parties\u2014on using best available data and evidence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022932e6ad1c16d4e9a89c7c7a64ba93cc3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I just wanted to remind the member if he could turn to the mike, because it\u2019s a bit hard to hear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e025553c04b4d75ac977e48b15bca67\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: I need to speak more closely to it. In the interests of transparency and best data and evidence, I did want to elicit some answers in relation to the advice on the distributional impact analysis options. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b63b617c22f4467a895ee3a91361185a\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: It was better when we couldn\u2019t hear you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290fbc5e05a7f4543b6451c1918ec828f\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Too close now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b178a23339f4b088a652a53ce8ba22f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s interesting that the members to my left\u2014the Government members\u2014have taken, basically, pretty shallow contributions throughout this debate and yet find time to mock their own bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf8306c1c95a48c2ac78b5697bce0de6\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: Twelve-second speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b550c7944d04a92ae8032e2c7b8a715\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u201412-second speeches. Anyway\u2014going back to distributional analysis of options: the analysis that\u2019s been presented in the regulatory impact statement contains very little analysis in relationship to gender and ethnicity. There\u2019s one paragraph that talks about \u201Crelatively fewer M\u0101ori, Pacific Peoples and women benefit from the package.\u201D But, if he wouldn\u2019t mind expanding, I did want to get a sense\u2014when the advice says that \u201CCompared to the overall population, relatively fewer M\u0101ori, Pacific Peoples and women benefit from the package.\u201D, can he explain to us whether he actually had any concerns when that evidence was presented to him. Again, those are the questions that we would have expanded on in the select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe advice on distributional analysis does show that people receiving main benefits, who have relatively low incomes, do not gain from the package as benefit rates are set in after-tax terms. So I did want to get a sense of whether the Minister had\u2014because he\u2019s just told us that there wasn\u2019t a child impact assessment being done. I am interested\u2014from, again, a child poverty reduction element, which is different from a child impact assessment, and the fact that on this bill, and this part of the bill around the income tax threshold changes, it\u2019s been identified that M\u0101ori, women, and Pasifika people benefit less and that beneficiaries will benefit disproportionately less\u2014in why he did not seek a child impact assessment, or why he hasn\u2019t presented to us the impact that this will have on children, particularly those in poverty. I think it\u2019s not good enough. We\u2019re a party that has been criticised\u2014actually, not just us; the Opposition has been criticised\u2014for just being shallow in our slogans. I think the contributions so far have been full of slogans and very little substantiation to actually what the intent here is around lifting those in the most severe poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe second question I had around the distributional analysis of options was around whether he thinks that there will be any impact on employment levels as a result of this. I think that was very briefly mentioned, but, again, if the Government\u2019s intent is to get people off the benefit and into work, and we know that the toxic stress of survival plays a huge part in people being able to get into work, I am curious as to whether he sought any advice from the Ministry of Social Development, for example, or anyone else\u2014those stakeholders\u2014around impacts on employment levels as a result of beneficiaries not being as lifted through these tax relief measures. This does seem to then contradict the broader intent and the strategic goals of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ETo recap, I\u2019m interested in whether he received advice on the number of M\u0101ori, Pacific people, and women who would benefit less\u2014the specific number\u2014and then I\u2019m also interested in understanding the impacts of unemployment figures as the result of this bill and whether he received any advice in relation to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00223a4e8c6c1909417087b3b58a08eb12eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a4e8c6c1909417087b3b58a08eb12eb\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I guess one of the outcomes of providing tax relief to low and middle income New Zealanders is that, surprisingly, when you reduce their taxes, they have more money in their back pocket. So the simple calculation in regards to the provision of tax relief to low and middle income New Zealanders, as has been delivered through this Budget and through this bill, goes right to the heart of what the member\u2019s points and questions are. They are going to end up with more money in their back pocket than what they have under the status quo. So while the distributional impact on child poverty hasn\u2019t specifically been undertaken, it doesn\u2019t take one too much to do a correlation to say that if we\u2019re putting more money into the back pockets of those two groups\u2014which, no doubt, have a higher degree of exposure and impact in regards to the areas and challenges that the member has articulated\u2014then they\u2019re going to see benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that is asked is whether the Government has considered any difference in the way in which we apply tax rates based on gender or one\u2019s ethnic background. Well, surprisingly, no. The tax cuts that we are providing are for all New Zealanders who are on low and medium income bands within the tax scheme. We\u2019re not differentiating based on anything other than what their income is. What we\u2019re doing, through this, is providing tax benefit and reducing the tax that those individuals pay so they have a little bit more in their back pocket to spend on the things that they need in their life. It\u2019s quite simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00221d23665ef3574a2e94add84e53dbcae0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d23665ef3574a2e94add84e53dbcae0\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, we\u2019re into the guts of it now, discussing clause 7, which amends Schedule 1 of the Income Tax Act. This is where the bulk of the heavy lifting in the Government\u2019s taxation bill is, and it\u2019s really useful for members around the Chamber to be able to ask questions about how the redistributive decisions that the Government has made are reflected in this clause 7. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo I need to ask the Minister of Revenue some of the questions about the values that have gone into this bill, and I want to contrast his bill with the Taxation (Budget Measures: Family Incomes Package) Bill from 2017. That was a comparable bill to this one because it was attempting to do similar things, but it was from a previous National Government that was at pains to talk about the values and the trade-offs in policy that were being made in similar legislation in that bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIf you turn, say, to the description in that bill\u2019s explanatory note of a similar section, it says, \u201CThe tax and transfer system is redistributive and is designed to provide assistance to those in financial hardship.\u201D, and that speaks to the values of the legislators who were making those decisions in 2017. Not one time in this bill are those kinds of values outlined, and so my first question to the Minister is, given the rates that he has set out in Schedule 1, which is amended by clause 7, does he still believe that the tax and transfer system should be redistributive and designed to provide assistance to those in financial hardship, and are the rates that he has set designed to provide assistance to those in financial hardship? A further question is: why, then, if that was a principle that the 2017 National Government signed up to, did this Government repeal the Tax Principles Reporting Act? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0fcce16929644f49ad63a5dee76759f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0fcce16929644f49ad63a5dee76759f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chairperson. Look, I\u2019ve only been in the Chamber a short time, I know, but I\u2019m speaking on behalf of my colleague the Hon David Parker because I know he\u2019s down there. He\u2019s at a slight disadvantage because he is disabled at the moment with a leg injury. I know he\u2019s a little slow to get up, and I\u2019m just concerned that he may miss his call because he\u2019s too slow to get up. So that\u2019s just a point for you to note, Mr Chairman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002217ed40f913e04be1a5eb69c579fbbf70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217ed40f913e04be1a5eb69c579fbbf70\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor. I will keep an eye on him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022d842332da3ef4fa5a992d656280f39dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d842332da3ef4fa5a992d656280f39dc\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. And, yes, very good point of order. It\u2019s important to note that it\u2019s important we all get to have a say in this debate, because we don\u2019t have a select committee process for this, and so some of the things that we might have been able to kind of tease out through select committee, we are having to raise with the Minister through the stage of the committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo my contribution is not going to be a long contribution. I have a few technical questions for the Minister in relation to the definitions in Part 1. So the first question I have for the Minister is in Part 1 is on the definition of children, which is relevant to the calculation of the relevant tax credit that people are entitled to and starts in clause 5 of the bill but inserts new section MF 4J as an amendment to the existing legislation. It defines children in the new section MF 4J(3)(c)(ii) \u201Cthe number of children for whom the person is allowed the in-work tax credit:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, I myself was not a tax lawyer. I understand that sometimes unusual language is used in tax bills. But I think, for the elucidation of the committee of the whole House, it would be helpful to know from the Minister whether he considered a change in relation to the definition of this formula, because children is written there twice. So it\u2019s a definition of children, and then the explanation for the definition also includes the word \u201Cchildren\u201D, which is quite unusual. That\u2019s not the only place that that\u2019s mentioned within this part. That is also separately defined in another part of the bill when that definition is included again in new section MF 4K(3)(c)(ii). So I just wanted to ask the Minister, in fact, if he could explain in plain English the effect of that definition, and if, in fact, it is possible to use clearer language to look at the effect of that particular definition. Because as a lawyer but not a tax lawyer, I admit, it might be easy for tax lawyers to understand, but it\u2019s relatively confusing for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo that was my first question. The second question I have is another definitional related question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242863df3847c41c9859bdbd73b4dbda1\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you were being short.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa8060959c4c4de89765ea8975903df0\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve still got half my call to go. The more questions you ask me, the longer I\u2019ll take. So happy to have contributions from my colleagues on the other side of the Chamber. Any other questions\u2014happy to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe next question I did have for the Minister was in relation to new section MF 4J(3)(d)(ii), which is the first instance that I could see in Part 1 when the term \u201Cspouse, civil union partner, or de facto partner\u201D was used. Now, there isn\u2019t a definition section in this bill. It would have been in Part 1 if there was a definition section, I understand\u2014that\u2019s the usual way of legal drafting. But that is also used in that part as well\u2014new section MF 4J(5)(b)(ii). It\u2019s also used in MF 4K(3)(c)(ii). It\u2019s also used in that same section in (d)(i) and (d)(ii) and, in fact, in that same section but in new subsection (5)(ii) and (5)(iii). So it\u2019s not defined in the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI wanted to know from the Minister: is it the definition that applies to \u201Cspouse, civil union partner, or de facto partner\u201D in the primary Act\u2014the Income Tax Act\u2014or is it the definition used in the Property (Relationships) Act, or in fact is there another definition which is applicable to this piece of legislation? The Minister may think that that\u2019s a minor thing, but obviously when it comes to tax, exact entitlements for the people who will get the particular tax cuts are key. Having that fine detail is essential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002241ad77b72ed2422abdb0e475646b47e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241ad77b72ed2422abdb0e475646b47e0\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m very happy to provide some context for the definition of child. Children in this context\u2014and it is not a separate definition. It is a definition that\u2019s already included within the overarching legislation. But just for the member\u2019s interest and general detail, it includes those that are 15 years of age or younger; or someone who\u2019s 16 or 17 years of age and financially dependent on the caregiver; or 18 years of age, financially dependent on the caregiver, and still at secondary school or at a tertiary education. They can\u2019t be married, in a civil union, or a de facto relationship. There are also some different sub-definitions around foster care and other considerations. So we\u2019re not talking about anything new in regards to children. It is a consistent definition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c58f2000988c426a9649c2f2b5618a1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c58f2000988c426a9649c2f2b5618a1d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Can I thank my colleague Damien O\u2019Connor for the assistance to get this call. I didn\u2019t need it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2ddcc72990446dda02152a494ed60c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s always kind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224196224125464559a60b5d7323e44275\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s always\u2014that\u2019s right. He\u2019s always got my best intentions at heart. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI would like to ask the Minister whether he\u2019s comfortable with the effect of this on Government debt. These provisions are one of the biggest contributions to the deficit, as a consequence of the Budget, and my understanding\u2014and the Minister can tell me if I\u2019ve got this wrong, but in order to drill down on what the effects are on gross and net debt and the operating balance before gains and losses (OBEGAL) deficit, we have to turn to the Budget documents. I just want to check that my understanding of the effect on this on debt over time is significant and that the effect of this on the OBEGAL deficit is also significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to page 156 of the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update 2024, which shows that Government debt, or gross debt, in 2019, which was just before, of course, the COVID epidemic hit us, was $84 billion. It rose steeply through that period so that now it has increased to $174 billion. That has been of considerable concern to the National Party, according to the statements I heard both at the election and since then, and, yet, if I\u2019m reading the Budget forecasts correctly, from now on, gross debt increases from $174,593,000 forecast for the end of this Budget year 2024, increasing to $243 billion in 2028. So am I correct that according to his own Budget documents, including the effect of these tax cuts, gross Government debt increases from $174 billion to $243 billion in 2026? That is my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1dc7b0c005043e9bf17a79640cf787c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1dc7b0c005043e9bf17a79640cf787c\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. Thank you very much. I\u2019ve been waiting for a while to try and ask my questions. But I wanted to dig into, again, the regulatory impact statement on the distributional analysis of the options. It\u2019s just because we haven\u2019t had a select committee process for this bill and we only received these documents a short time ago. So I\u2019ve just been trying to understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that in the analysis of the options\u2014and there were six options analysed\u2014that option two is the option implemented by the bill. But, I guess, I\u2019d like to ask the Minister that. Like, is option two the one that is implemented by the bill, or is it different to option two? There\u2019s more information given about the distributional impacts of option two and a very helpful figure one, which I think is really useful because it shows what the impact is on household incomes by equivalised income quintile. What it does show is that\u2014if it is option two, and there isn\u2019t a comparable figure for the other options\u2014the lower-income households get less money from these tax changes per week than the highest-income households, and significantly less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, when the Minister and the Government say that these tax changes are aimed at low and middle income earners, I just wonder how that squares with this distributional impact analysis, if indeed option two is the one being implemented. I would note\u2014and I know my colleague brought this up as well but I think, because the Minister spoke to it, I would just go a bit further\u2014it does say, \u201CCompared to the overall population, relatively fewer M\u0101ori, Pacific peoples, and women benefit from the package.\u201D I think that analysis is really important. While the Minister and the Government want to say, \u201COur tax settings just have to do with income, nothing to do with your demographic background.\u201D, the whole point of this analysis is to point out that the current society and structure that we live in right now isn\u2019t fair and it\u2019s disadvantaging certain people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe point of the distributional analysis and the analysis on how it\u2019s going to impact M\u0101ori, Pasifika people, and women is relevant because what it\u2019s saying is, \u201CWell, they\u2019re going to benefit less than other people.\u201D That\u2019s kind of important; if we want a fairer society, how are we going to address that when we continue making changes that entrench the existing inequality that exists because of centuries of racism and patriarchy and colonisation? Like, let\u2019s just own that history and say that the point is, if you want a level playing field and an equal society, you have to make some changes to how things are done, otherwise you just entrench the existing inequality. I\u2019m very interested in the Minister\u2019s answers about the distributional impact analysis of options and which option actually is the one implemented in Part 1 of the bill, clause\u00A07(1).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220ef937e6c1834fa2ad3dd56a84e3b323\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ef937e6c1834fa2ad3dd56a84e3b323\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. I note that the Minister hasn\u2019t responded to my questions on debt. I would reinforce the point by noting that gross Government debt, which he criticises from the last Government, increased over a six-year period from $88 billion to $174 billion, including the enormous cost of COVID, which was the major contributor to that. Yet from here forward, we go up from $174 billion to $243\u00A0billion, an increase of\u2014what\u2019s that? That\u2019s about $70 billion extra in debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that that is reinforced lower down on the same table on fiscal indicators when that is expressed as a percentage of GDP, and, indeed, gross Government debt, which is currently at 42 percent of GDP, continues going up for the next years to peak at 49.9 percent of GDP. How can that be prudent, given the criticisms that that Minister and other members of the Government have made of the prior Government in respect of that debt track? I would like to hear from the Minister on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00220a431d759f164625b90a62a526e1c5ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a431d759f164625b90a62a526e1c5ae\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m actually really concerned about something now. I want to track back to the concerns around payroll providers, and the Minister gave us a fairly firm assurance that officials had consulted with payroll providers and they were pretty confident about this 31 July start date. I want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention and the committee\u2019s attention to paragraphs 38, 39, and 40 of the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo 38 goes through the fact that Inland Revenue (IR) is going to be responsible for the ongoing operation and enforcement of the tax system\u2014pretty standard stuff\u2014when Inland Revenue can get changes made in their system so that the whole new changes to tax thresholds can get into place. But then in 39, it was talking about the process; it was saying that Inland Revenue would need to contact significant groups such as payroll providers, software providers as soon as possible after the changes are announced to help ensure there are no delays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s interesting because I understood that Inland Revenue had consulted with payroll providers, but now paragraph 39 is saying that Inland Revenue will need to contact significant groups such as payroll providers as soon as possible after the changes are announced. So that\u2019s kind of a little bit of an anomaly there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s probably a perfectly good explanation, but I would like to have it as to why on the one hand, this committee was certainly given the impression that payroll providers had been consulted, but now, in paragraph 39 of the regulatory impact statement, we have this this line saying that IR will need to contact significant groups \u201Cas soon as possible after the changes are announced\u201D. Those changes were only announced today. So a little bit of\u2014just to clarify that would be really helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt goes on to say that IR needs to have a communications plan in place. So now, having worked with the excellent officials at IR, I know that that will all be happening. But here\u2019s the bit that\u2019s actually really a bit worrying, OK? It\u2019s paragraph 40 and I\u2019m going to read it out because I think this needs to be in the Hansard after the assurances that have been given to us by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIn paragraph 40, it says: \u201CIf the changes come into effect on 31 July 2024 and are only announced on 30 May 2024 it is likely that some employers will not be able to make the changes in time and will incorrectly calculate the income tax to be deducted from their employees pay.\u201D Just a note for the IR officials: there\u2019s an apostrophe missing there. Sorry\u2014but carrying on. Now, I just want to repeat that. It says, \u201Cit is likely that some employers will not be able to make the changes in time\u201D. But we were given assurances that they would, so that really is a bit worrying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, IR officials go on to say\u2014and this is quite correct; it says in the later part of this paragraph that \u201CThis can be corrected in later pay runs by the employer or can be corrected as part of the end of year tax assessment process that Inland Revenue runs.\u201D So it can all be squared up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe point is that ordinary New Zealanders\u2014the people who are worried about a cost of living crisis, the people who want to make sure they\u2019ve got more money\u2014have been told that these tax threshold changes are going to take place in effect from 31 July. They will be expecting that their pay packets will change in the first pay period coming in after 31 July. That\u2019s the reason we\u2019re here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s the expectation that has been given to them by the Minister of Finance, by the Minister of Revenue, by the Prime Minister, by the entire approach to this Budget that they will get the effect of those tax threshold changes\u2014will throw flow through to their pay packets from 31 July. So they\u2019re expecting they\u2019re going to get paid; their first payroll rolls through, say, on about 7 August. They would expect to see some change in their pay packet. But here, in the regulatory impact statement, despite the assurances that have been given to us, we now find out that it is likely that some employers will not be able to make the change in time. This just doesn\u2019t stack up with what was being said earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220287691bca1045638b7877e8ee3f6f44\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they\u2019ll back pay it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f92b9be44d6949b6ab1f1267e2919757\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I know\u2014I know it could all be corrected later on. It can be squared up in the end-of-year tax return or it can be squared up in later pay periods. But even if that doesn\u2019t flow through correctly, what else is not going to be done correctly? What\u2019s going to be the impact on the independent earner tax credit? What\u2019s the impact on the family tax credit? What\u2019s the impact on all the other stuff that has been promised in this Budget? I think the Minister needs to clear this up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002287ccc38be21e4643bbd51048fd912cae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287ccc38be21e4643bbd51048fd912cae\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014sorry, Dr\u00A0Lawrence, but I thought I\u2019d better answer this question, because the member was raising it at such a significant potential opportunity or issue. I just draw the member\u2019s attention to the date in the regulatory impact statement, which was finalised, which is 24 April 2024. Today is 30 May. In that six-week period, subsequent work was undertaken in regards to consultation with payroll providers, which provided the degree of confidence that I\u2019ve articulated today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo, while it was noted there that that was the effective date, and six weeks is quite a long period of time, we appreciate the reality of how Budgets work, and that\u2019s why there is point of difference. So there is nothing sinister as the member is trying to imply. It is simply a timing difference in regards to that, and, hopefully, that clarifies that point in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the questions from the Hon David Parker around the gross debt considerations, those are probably best suited to the Minister of Finance. However, I do acknowledge that we are under urgency, and we\u2019re just going to have a little bit more time before I provide a comprehensive response to that member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022277d68f796f44b2c8c580ab415e6e112\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022277d68f796f44b2c8c580ab415e6e112\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In terms of what we have heard so far, I think one of the areas that needs further clarification from the Minister\u2014thank you for turning the mike on\u2014is around the support for seniors and the support for those who are on superannuation, and also for our retirees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first thing I would like to address is what people have previously mentioned in terms of the impact statement and particularly around the distribution analysis of options. When we are looking at overall relatively fewer people benefiting\u2014these are people who benefit from it; like, these are people who don\u2019t even get anything out of this, let alone people who only get a very low amount from here. I agree with and appreciate what the Minister has said in terms of that the whole point of this is so that low and middle income New Zealanders have more money in their back pocket. But let\u2019s look at the numbers here in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAccording to what is both in the impact statement and distribution impact analysis of options, as well as what is laid out in clause 7(1) of the bill, for someone who is on New Zealand superannuation, you get $800 a week together as a couple. That is $41,600. Now,\u00A0although this says\u2014the distribution option, it says \u201CBy contrast, almost all seniors benefit from the change due to the near-universal receipt of New Zealand super, but by a small amount $13 per week.\u201D However, going by the official calculator\u2014this is the official Budget calculator\u2014for a couple who are retirees with no additional income, they get $4.30 a week. That\u2019s $2.15 per person, not what is stated here in terms of by a small amount in the statement of $13 a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, if you extrapolate that into how much people are getting\u2014if you are looking at elders who are currently renting, who do not have their own home\u2014and, again, this comes down to what\u2019s the modelling the Minister has done and the people have done in terms of this bill and looking at this. I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but if you look at the average rent cost of $624 a week\u2014this is the average rent cost for T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland, minus everything else we\u2019re getting\u2014we\u2019re looking at a couple getting only $88 left per person per week, with a tax break that you are saving here of $2.15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of this, I would like to know from the Minister, in the modelling you have done in readjusting the tax bracket, what modelling has been done on these people, on people who are elderly who are renting, who do not have additional sources of income other than their superannuation, and what tax relief they will be receiving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022828fcb86d7f94809bc204cfa204343f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022828fcb86d7f94809bc204cfa204343f4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Just in regards to the member\u2019s question, I\u2019ll reference the fact sheet that is provided alongside the Budget material. There is a worked example there in regards to a retired couple, and there\u2019s a footnote that sits below that calculation that actually provides exactly the rationale and the background in terms of how those numbers that the member has just articulated is calculated. It is reflective of the different rates per year, based on those impacts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere was another question earlier on in regards to the options within the distributional impact. The clarification is that option two is the scenario that is included within the bill, just for that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022193ee8d7503b417ea0181b1052b8a8ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022193ee8d7503b417ea0181b1052b8a8ec\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Acknowledging that there are a number of questions that are still outstanding for my colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell\u2014and I am interested in those, but in the nature of what is, you know, a brief committee stage, I will introduce a new line of questioning about the considerations that went alongside the adjustments that are being made to Schedule 1 in clause 7. So, if you follow along with me, the rationale that the Government is using in all of the accompanying material to these changing thresholds is that despite growing incomes, the tax thresholds have not changed and so that\u2019s what\u2019s required, but also alongside those growing incomes, some families are still seeing rising costs placing pressure on their living standards, and particularly housing. In today\u2019s Budget documents released by Treasury, we saw that there\u2019s a marked increase in housing costs for most families, and rents in particular are forecast to continue to rise in this forecast period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my question is: last time the Government considered these changes in its 2017 bill, the changes were done alongside an increase to the accommodation supplement. The rationale for that was that rising housing costs have increased the proportion of income spent on housing. So when you make the kind of threshold adjustments that are being made in this bill tonight by the Minister, there\u2019s still this unfair burden on low-income families who are paying more of their income on housing. So the Government in 2017 said that as a result of that, low-income families had been seeing a decline in their residual and after-housing-costs income, and so they implemented changes to the accommodation supplement to deal with that example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to just explain this; it\u2019ll just take me a minute. Recipients of the accommodation supplement who receive a main benefit have seen their residual incomes fall in real terms, and so the recipients of the accommodation supplement who don\u2019t receive a main benefit or New Zealand superannuation have also seen residual incomes fall\u2014their after-housing costs. That\u2019s not necessarily helped by the changes that are in Schedule 1, proposed by clause 7. So my question to the Minister in the chair, Simon Watts, is: has he considered, alongside the changes that he\u2019s proposing in Schedule 1, an increase to the accommodation supplement that would acknowledge those changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to come back to this, because I\u2019m sure the Minister can explain for us the trade-offs that he\u2019s made in not providing for an accommodation supplement increase, but I\u2019d be really interested to tease out with him what other measures are appropriate given that he made that trade-off, and what the Government will be doing in the face of Treasury\u2019s findings today that were published that rents will be continuing to rise markedly in the forecast period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002265ea9a0b1a2a4e4ca9d50668b057acd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265ea9a0b1a2a4e4ca9d50668b057acd5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Just in response to the member\u2019s question in regards to the accommodation supplement, I think\u2014well, the member\u2019s actually answered it in part, in the way in which she acknowledged that there are a number of trade-offs that are made in regards to these decisions. We haven\u2019t made any adjustment in regards to the accommodation supplement. We\u2019ve targeted our tax relief in the areas that we\u2019ve outlined in this bill, and that is an area that we haven\u2019t looked to adjust at this point. The reality is that there is a wide range of considerations around that, but in regards to what we\u2019ve delivered, it\u2019s consistent with our coalition Government\u2019s priorities and those included within our coalition agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2f34ca937474f60aaaf5dc24a5d6fe6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2f34ca937474f60aaaf5dc24a5d6fe6\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In the nature of engaging in questions with the Minister\u2014and I thank him for his answer\u2014was the trade-off to provide a tax cut of $2.9 billion for landlords the trade-off that he\u2019s talking about when he didn\u2019t consider an accommodation supplement for some of the most vulnerable New Zealanders who cannot access housing because of those decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002235f9fb7d9ae44a448e1a5a970508e2fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235f9fb7d9ae44a448e1a5a970508e2fb\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank the Minister for his answer earlier. So I\u2019ll just restate the other question which he has not yet addressed, which is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022204b601164aa4af4973ec90636349d63\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, repetition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ccd56ea0c94f3b89bbe39bbc5b61ec\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister hasn\u2019t yet addressed the question, so I think it\u2019s fine to restate it, since he hasn\u2019t addressed it. How can the Minister continue to claim that these tax changes are geared towards low and middle income New Zealanders or the squeezed middle, when the distributional analysis in the regulatory impact statement makes it very clear that the largest gains go to the highest income households, and it\u2019s substantially more than the lowest income, but even the second to lowest quintile. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, for the benefit of the members opposite, who I know sometimes find me very intimidating, I\u2019ll be very careful here in how I present my information: there\u2019s a document that members opposite can get from the Table there. I know they\u2019re new. It\u2019s called regulatory impact statement, personal income tax relief. On page 21 of the regulatory impact statement, which is annexed to distributional analysis of options, this means looking at the different options that they\u2019ve considered and saying how they impact different people in society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhen the Government makes claims about these tax changes benefiting the squeezed middle, that is a claim about a certain group in society. If you break down households by their household income into quintiles, which means divided by five, then there\u2019s the lowest fifth, the next lowest fifth, the middle fifth, and the top two-fifths. It says very clearly\u2014and I\u2019ll just read this for the members, because they can\u2019t read it when I hold it up\u2014that the largest weekly gain goes to the fifth quintile. That\u2019s the highest fifth of income earners, reflecting the fact that the maximum gain from the personal income tax threshold adjustments occurs at a relatively high individual income level. So what this means is higher income households benefit more, relative to median income households. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo my question for the Minister is: how can he keep saying this, when clearly the impact of the tax changes in clause 7(1) is to give more cash back to those on the highest incomes, who really probably need it the least? Of course, these are just the personal income tax changes. I don\u2019t believe this analysis\u2014and maybe the Minister could answer this question: does this analysis include the changes to interest deductibility and basically the benefits to landlords?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b80e54101004420a91d89f8bb4d6e1be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b80e54101004420a91d89f8bb4d6e1be\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks to the member for the questions. I\u2019ll reiterate that the reductions in personal income tax rates are on the three lowest income bands\u2014the three lowest. So by virtue of targeting that aspect of low-income New Zealanders, those are the individuals that will get that benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe member is referencing some of the distributional impact analysis around that. In addition to those changes in the bottom three income brackets, we\u2019re also making some changes in regards to Working for Families and the eligibility banding within that as well. That, specifically, again, will target low to middle income New Zealanders. So I think the member can have a degree of assurance that what we are doing is targeting that area, and the nature in which we\u2019re achieving that is both through the personal income tax threshold changes\u2014again, targeted at the lowest and middle income New Zealanders\u2014and broadening the eligibility criteria and thresholds from the other aspects of the taxation initiatives that do benefit those groups as well. In combination with that, we are doing significantly more for that population group than the status quo. By voting against this, you\u2019re, in effect, supporting the status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022b58fc5f9ffe54b99988305237260deef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b58fc5f9ffe54b99988305237260deef\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019m going to take a brave approach to this and take a generous approach to this piece of legislation, because it says here the bill also intends to reduce the cost of living. The Government\u2019s adherence to tax\u2014and, of course, their claim that, you know, high taxes, the lack of changes to the thresholds, have been the biggest impact on the cost of living for New Zealanders. Then the question for the Minister is: did he or the Government consider different changes to the thresholds and the impact that that might have had on the cost of living\u2014not the tax going back, but the cost of living? Because the reality was for people in those different thresholds, the cost of living is made up of different things. Tax is one part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn fact, if you go to the top end over $180,000, in fact the cost of living is made up of food and rent\u2014often not rent because they probably have their own homes. In fact, it\u2019s discretionary income that will be given back to those higher-income earners. As the previous speaker said, at the top quintile, where most of the money will be going, the impact on cost of living is minimal. It will be an impact on discretionary spending, but not cost of living. So if we could go back in a generous way\u2014and I know that I\u2019ll be criticised by my colleagues\u2014and say, actually, the Government may be genuinely interested in reducing the cost of living instead of what some people have been saying, which is \u201CActually, they\u2019re just interested in handing benefits to landlords.\u201D I\u2019ll be generous. I\u2019ll say they are genuinely interested in reducing the cost of living and so the changes to the thresholds in clause 7 here have been made by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: did he or his colleagues think about other adjustments that may have, at the bottom end, say, $14,000 to $15,000, $15,000 to $48,000, whether you\u2019d extended that out to $60,000, and whether, actually, more benefits to those people whose cost of living is really significant\u2014they spend, virtually, every bit of their income surviving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf097402039f479780dc32753b66bb94\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why we need tax relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d21f80bd6464263b92590173f8d6aee\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, that\u2019s one of the things, yes. I accept that the money going back to them will help, but if the aim is to genuinely reduce the cost of living, there are many other charges that are going to come at New Zealanders through this Budget, believe me\u2014many that haven\u2019t been identified yet. So the question is: will this deliver to those in the $15,601 to $48,000 bracket, who\u2019ll be paying 17.5c per dollar? Will the relief they get from the changes to the threshold have any real impact on the cost of living for those families? Has the Minister considered it, and whether there were other ways of reducing the cost of living, better ways, than the changes that have been made here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBecause I can tell you that from $180,000 upwards, for most of the people here\u2014all the people in this House earning over $180,000\u2014this won\u2019t make much of a difference to our cost of living. It won\u2019t make much difference to our cost of living because it will be discretionary spending. So the question to the Minister: were there considerations given to other changes in the thresholds or other groupings that may have genuinely reduced the cost of living for those people who really need to have their cost of living reduced? If it\u2019s the aim of the Act, or the aim of the bill, as we\u2019re told, then I want to know from the Minister that these decisions are going to deliver the best outcomes as claimed by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00221ef7105427334cffb0a6b1a787a89549\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ef7105427334cffb0a6b1a787a89549\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. I also acknowledge his agility on the rugby field in the Parliamentary Rugby Team, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ELook, we\u2019re talking about a tax bill here, and some of the questions that were being noted there are broader in regards to the economic implications. The reality of reducing income tax on individuals is going to mean that they\u2019re going to have more of their own money to be able to spend or save in the way in which they determine, and on this side of the House, we are supportive of people taking personal responsibility about how they spend or save that money. No doubt, some of that money that they will not be paying in tax to the Government will be used to pay for goods and services that they may not have been able to afford previously if they had not had that money, and, therefore, their ability to deal with the implications of the cost of living will be softened as a result of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe broader conversations around scenarios and optionality are included within the documentation in relation to this bill. There was consideration, as you\u2019d expect, in terms of the coalition Government in regards to policies, but we have landed where we have landed, and we deem that that is the most appropriate mechanism in order to deliver that tax relief to low and middle income New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the questions from the member in regards to the debt track, the view is that the general questions of that nature are more appropriately directed to the Minister of Finance, and from my assessment of them, they\u2019re outside of the scope of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022c156941ee3d14a3fa25f4481b9be5a78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c156941ee3d14a3fa25f4481b9be5a78\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224d448b019d424b61b8b7ff400f5b07a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d448b019d424b61b8b7ff400f5b07a0\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I wanted, subsequent to questions followed from the good interrogation from my colleague Julie Anne Genter, to pick up on the first quintile in the average change in income analysis in figure 1 in the regulatory impact statement. So the first quintile, what is shows is, picking up on where my colleague had left around how\u2014despite the comments from members opposite to me that everyone will benefit, the first quintile actually shows that not actually everyone will benefit. I just wanted to test whether the Minister could clarify whether it is factually correct to say whether everyone will benefit when the analysis in that first quintile actually shows that there\u2019s about 8,000 households who will not be better off. It may seem like a small proportion of people, but as we have traversed in other discussions around benefit increases, actually, average numbers don\u2019t paint a full picture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe first quintile did show that the group of people who would be not better off are people who would have been on the benefit during some period. What I think that shows, and I want the Minister to help us elaborate, is that this bill does not equally lift all boats; that, in fact, the people most benefiting from this bill are those that are well off. So following the specific questions I had was (a) whether he thought it\u2019s factually correct to claim that this bill benefits every single person in this country, and, if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe second question I had around that first income quintile\u2014also known as those who have the lowest incomes; for example, people on the benefit will be disproportionately represented in here\u2014was whether he sought or he received a breakdown, particularly for this first quintile on age. I\u2019m asking because a lot of young people are on lower incomes and ultimately we haven\u2019t really discussed the impact of the distribution and how this bill will be distributed amongst and will impact young people. So I do want to get a sense of whether he sought or had a breakdown by age around those quintiles\u2014how young people are represented in that first quintile in that analysis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI did want to go back to a question that wasn\u2019t quite addressed earlier in the night around whether there was any engagement with Whaikaha in relationship to the impact on how those tax breaks would be distributed amongst disabled people. I asked this because multiple research has showed that disabled people are overrepresented in those lower incomes. When we just get a breakdown of the number of households but we don\u2019t really get a picture painted around how many of those households that are not proportionately benefiting from this bill\u2014how many of them are young people, how many of them are disabled\u2014I think then the Minister isn\u2019t actually painting a clear enough picture to the House and to the public around, for example, where will disabled people be and how they will benefit in relationship to this bill. Because we\u2019ve talked about plenty of the people in work, but there are many disabled people who are out of work, many of them who receive a benefit. The distributional analysis talks about how beneficiaries will not be as benefited because of this, but he hasn\u2019t addressed how disabled people will feature in here. Disabled people make up a quite substantive proportion of the population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWe already heard from the Minister that there was no child impact assessment being done, and I\u2019m starting to get concerned that there was not robust enough work going into the impact on different population groups as a result of these tax cuts, which are one of the key features in this Budget. So I do hope the Minister can give us precise answers in relationship to whether it\u2019s factually correct to say that everyone will benefit, (b) the analysis around disabled people, and (c) the analysis on the breakdown of young people. Well, that\u2019s not everyone, and the member earlier was talking about how everyone would benefit, right? That is actually quite important to actually claim. It\u2019s important for the Minister to be clear that some people will be worse off as a result of these changes: a small group, but none the less some people will be. Who are these households? They\u2019re people on the benefit\u2014the ones doing it the toughest. We haven\u2019t been able to be upfront with this committee about the fact that those who will benefit the least from these tax cuts are the people who are already struggling to make ends meet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f27ae8b8964e46d6bf9d5784df00dde2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f27ae8b8964e46d6bf9d5784df00dde2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The committee will resume at 9 a.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024053094cc086a0c3b408faedf68beced78c77000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10.03 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Friday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed972b693a1d40d196cc861a33c9c620\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 30 MAY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3348ff5128c4408a651fdbc25d1b7dc\u0022\u003E(continued on Friday, 31 May 2024)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff62ac1852744435868f5df12b40ecac\u0022\u003ETaxation (Budget Measures) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229cf522e24fba48ec9b4a6cd60c03a441\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6b1c1d5f7994febbb7829aa385086c6\u0022\u003EPart 1  Income Tax Act 2007 amendments commencing 1 April 2024 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229a8ab87fadf646dcb4c1e1f4cf0c0a3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a8ab87fadf646dcb4c1e1f4cf0c0a3d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. Members, when the committee rose last evening, we were considering the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill, and we were debating Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 7, \u201CIncome Tax Act 2007 amendments commencing 1 April 2024\u201D. The question is, again, that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EJust before I give the call, I have a list and I\u2019ve had a discussion with the presiding officer who was in here last night of the things that have been discussed. So, on Part 1, we\u2019re looking for new information or any Amendment Papers that have not yet had an opportunity to be discussed\u2014so new things, please. At that, I\u2019ll say the question is, again, that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00220f2d725b6ced46f38496d260e5bf7e3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f2d725b6ced46f38496d260e5bf7e3b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and good morning to you, Madam Chair, and good morning to the Minister of Revenue. I thank him for his lively engagement last night in what has been an interesting and useful debate, given that we haven\u2019t had a chance for the select committee stage on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI have a number of questions about the redistributive effect of clause 7, that\u2019s Schedule\u00A01, that is still on the Table for us to canvass a bit more today. Before the House adjourned, we were discussing some of my questions, which were still outstanding, about the redistributive effect of those numbers outlined in Schedule 1, given that there are fixed costs which are still rising for some families in the lower three brackets on that table, particularly around accommodation, because we saw yesterday that Treasury has predicted rising rents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister was about the trade-offs that he spoke about when he answered my questions, when he considered the accommodation supplement going up alongside this redistribution that he\u2019s set out in Schedule 1. The reason I\u2019m asking him this is because we want to make sure that the tax and transfer system is redistributive and is designed to provide assistance to those in financial hardship. That was something that\u2019s not only been canvassed in similar bills introduced in this House by Labour Governments but was also introduced in the 2017 bill which set out to do exactly the same kind of change that the Minister has proposed in Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo what I want to hear from the Minister on is those questions which I asked him last night, which he did not address, about the values which he has used to determine the redistributive effect of those bottom three brackets alongside rising costs for people on the lowest incomes. What I really want to get to here with the Minister is whether he\u2019s considered the tax benefits that he says will accrue for those lower three brackets, whether those will be eroded, particularly by housing costs. Because, Madam Chair, if you\u2019ll let me explain this point, rising housing costs have increased the proportion of income spent on housing, particularly for low-income families. As a result, some low-income families have seen debt, declines in residual\u2014that\u2019s after-housing costs, in their real incomes and in their spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo the impact that I want to discuss with the Minister is what he said last night when he said that we have considered increasing the accommodation supplement alongside these changes but we decided not to do that because of the trade-offs involved. I\u2019d like him to talk us through what those trade-offs were, particularly in the area of housing costs, because recipients of the accommodation supplement who receive a main benefit have seen their residual incomes fall in real terms on average across the period that we\u2019re talking about here, but the Minister\u2019s choices in those three brackets in Schedule 1 don\u2019t address that aspect of it. Also, people who receive superannuation and don\u2019t receive a main benefit have seen their residual incomes fall in real terms on average. So that\u2019s the point I want to get to here with understanding that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy second question for the Minister in the time remaining that I have is about whether these changes represented in Schedule 1 represent a move that is simple in our tax system, which is, it\u2019s a tax and transfer model that he is using which is often complex, and the rules determining eligibility and claiming entitlements can be difficult to navigate in other parts of the section. But I want him to explain why this measure is preferred that he\u2019s outlined in Schedule 1 when other mechanisms that he is using to, essentially, give rebates in the rest of the tax bill don\u2019t meet with those objectives of simplifying the system to clearly link what he, I think, would see as linking hard work with reward. While we don\u2019t agree with that, it is a principle of the tax system that is important and is internationally recognised, and I\u2019d like him to give us some sense of whether this is a simple and effective way to redistribute wealth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c412f68faa0544d8916d09eb2a8ac092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c412f68faa0544d8916d09eb2a8ac092\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. One of the things that I\u2019m just wondering whether the Minister in the chair, the Hon Simon Watts, has had a chance overnight to get some advice from officials on was a question I asked last evening that hasn\u2019t been answered, around what the net cost of the tax cuts will be, given that there are a number of Government payments that are based on after-tax income, and given that there will be a rise across various brackets, as laid out in clause 7 of the bill, that this will affect eligibility and there will be a netting out of some of the cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut my other question for the Minister\u2014and we have spoken a little bit about the distributional impacts, and I think, given we\u2019re not having a select committee stage of this bill, those distributional aspects are something that is our job in this part of the bill, where we are discussing what the thresholds are, to explore how this is impacting various groups in our communities. One of the specific questions I have for the Minister is drawing his attention to the regulatory impact statement where it talks about the 8,000\u00A0households who will be worse off under this package, that they will actually receive less income per week. They\u2019re all in the lowest quartile, so they are all our most vulnerable households, that will indeed be worse off under this package. The reason that is given in the regulatory impact statement for this is these are typically families that move in and out of benefit eligibility throughout the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, any of us who do constituency work know that that moving out of benefit eligibility not only will have an impact on tax thresholds but also can mean a great deal of financial complexity for families around things like income-related rent subsidies and what is owing there. So this is actually putting this impact on some of the families who are struggling the most in the areas I represent, and I would be remiss for the people of Wigram if I didn\u2019t get some full answers from the Minister at this committee stage around what that means for these 8,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn particular, I\u2019d like to know from the Minister what alternative policies were considered\u2014if alternative policies were considered\u2014so that we didn\u2019t leave these 8,000\u00A0people who are going to be worse off under this tax package, and if the Minister didn\u2019t consider alternative policies so that we didn\u2019t leave these families worse off, why that was not considered, why that would not be a priority for some of our most vulnerable families in our communities, that we would make them, in fact, worse off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re already seeing, and the regulatory impact statement pertaining to that schedule laid out in clause 7 already lays bare\u2014something that I think  we\u2019ll always know when we seek to use the tax system to do redistribution\u2014is that it is those in the lowest quartiles who will receive the least amount of benefit, that we\u2019re seeing those on the lowest income, and the regulatory impact statement does a good job of spelling this out, receiving, on average, $13 a week in benefit. I think we can see that that is not going to deliver the relief that I think many people were hoping for, particularly when they went through an election campaign when they were told they were going to receive $250 a fortnight in tax relief. That $13 will be somewhat of a shock, but more of a shock will be for those families that find that they are worse off under this package. Now, as constituent MPs, we\u2019re all going to have to go back to our electorates and explain to those people why it is they have less income as a result of the threshold changes that are being passed in this House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo just to recap for the Minister: what alternative policies were considered to ensure that people were not worse off as a result of these threshold changes, and, if alternative policies were not considered, why his Government did not see that that was a priority to ensure that some of our most struggling families in our communities would not end up worse off as a result? It is not insignificant. According to the regulatory impact statement, there are 8,000 families who are going to be in this situation, and I think that each and every one of us, at some point, will be called on to explain to those families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00225d3b6e78c11c40c4990b6cca4149e29c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d3b6e78c11c40c4990b6cca4149e29c\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I would like to echo what our colleagues have just said, that a lot of these would have been teased out during the select committee stage, but, alas, here we are, trying to tease out some of the details around the regulatory impact statement. I have two questions for the Minister of Revenue on this. The first question was a question from our colleague Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, which was left hanging at the end of last night, around the 8,000\u00A0households\u2014this\u00A0is part of the distributional analysis of options. In there, it was stated that there are 8,000 household who, according to this, would literally be in the red as part of this assessment. What the Minister didn\u2019t have the opportunity to respond to last night before the committee rose was a breakdown of who these 8,000 households are and what support has been given for these who\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fe74c6fe6344a2793c5f4c9b98b8914\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just ask the member\u2014because we\u2019ve just had a fairly extensive question around that, and we\u2019re trying to stick to new material, if possible. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c31dcdfc351e46e4a2ac9cd7286348ba\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Sure; of course. Thank you, Madam Chair. So my second question follows on, again, from the question yesterday around seniors, but this time I would like to kind of draw the attention around clause 7(1) when it comes to the amendment, this time around students, and particularly for students who are on student allowance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, we know that, for students who are on student allowance, they\u2019re also not getting anything out of this. So I would like to know from the Minister what sort of modelling and impact assessment has been done for students, particularly those who are on student allowance. This is in relation to those who are currently\u2014and, particularly for us\u2014constituents of Auckland Central and also of Wellington Central, from Tamatha Paul\u2019s and also Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s electorates. I think, in this case, it will be really vital for the Minister to provide some clarification around the support that students will be seeing as a result of this tax balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOn top of that, it would be good to know what other approaches the Minister will consider, or the Cabinet has considered, around the support for those on the lowest salary level, and particularly in instable and infrequent salary\u2014for example, like what I just mentioned, those who are not getting consistent salary and consistent wages throughout the year. So it would be really good to get some clarification from the Minister on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002299276114d2ec47f08a9483bc0e862c17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299276114d2ec47f08a9483bc0e862c17\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. Just in response to the questions around distributional impact from the Hon Megan Woods and also from the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan in regards to the number of households that have been impacted potentially that will not benefit, the regulatory impact statement does include a number around 8,000. Subsequent to that, our analysis indicates that number is probably less than 5,000. The average impact on those households primarily is those that are part-year beneficiaries. So to be clear: no one on the benefit will receive less of their benefit as a result of what\u2019s happened. There\u2019s going to be no change in that. Where the implication occurs is where people are on part-year benefits and part-year working. There are 5,000 in that group; about 0.3 percent of taxpayers. As I say, $1 is the average impact, going up to a maximum of $2. So, you know, while that is not zero, it is small in regards to the consequences there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other questions in regards to more broader distributional impact, I have answered already last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe implications around the tax cuts and the focusing on Arena Williams\u2019 question in regards to targeting\u2014we are deliberately targeting the lower three thresholds to make sure that the impact hits low and middle income households; those are the households that are being significantly impacted by the impacts of inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn terms of the redistribution impacts, quite clearly we are deliberately targeting that group because those are the ones who will be impacted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002211f18184a31744d0b18532fd4cf63a3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211f18184a31744d0b18532fd4cf63a3f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Yesterday, in the evening\u2014or today, in terms of our urgency clock\u2014I asked the Minister of Revenue about what part these tax reductions in this bill play in the increase in Government debt from $174\u00A0billion to $243 billion in the forecast period. The Minister said that was a question that should be put to the Minister of Finance, under the Budget, rather than be answered by him in respect of his contributions on this bill. I don\u2019t think that is a sufficient answer, with respect, because it is this bill that has the major tax reductions, outside of the tax breaks for landlords, that do cost a significant amount in fiscal terms. I\u2019m going to put the question to the Minister in a slightly different way, and I think it is incumbent upon him to give us an answer as to the substance, so that we can get to the bottom of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn the prior Government, there were years, prior to COVID, where we ran surpluses of 1.9, 1.5, 2.4 percent. Then COVID hit, and the subsequent deficits as a percentage of GDP were 1.3 percent; 2.7 percent; 2.4 percent; and this year, if we include that as a Government year, 2.7 percent. Every one of those was criticised by the then National Opposition as being fiscally irresponsible. Yet the forecast for this coming year is a deficit that is larger than any deficit, except for the COVID year, of 3.1 percent\u2014a deficit of 3.1\u00A0percent of GDP\u2014which is one of the reasons why this Government has the increasing Government debt that I have referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, by my calculation, Minister, these tax cuts here of about $2.5 billion per annum that are covered by this bill are the equivalent, given that GDP is about $400 billion, of 0.5 percent of GDP. So I want the Minister to either deny or accept that the fiscal effect of these tax cuts is to increase the deficit from 2.6 percent\u2014which it would have been otherwise, excluding the tax breaks for landlords, which would have been in the vicinity of the 2.7 percent that the prior Opposition always criticised\u2014and instead push it up to 3.1 percent, according to page\u00A0156 of (B.3), the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update. So, of that 3.1 percent deficit, which is an enormous deficit against the background of the deficits that we had to run post-COVID, in the context of the increased expenditure that flowed from both COVID and the inflationary pressures that followed all around the world and in New Zealand\u2014how can it be responsible to bring forward tax cuts that, in that context, are going to increase Government debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIsn\u2019t the real game here what we just heard from the speakers at the Child Poverty Action Group post-Budget breakfast\u2014that I\u2019ve just returned from\u2014to increase the deficit to justify the austerity that you are going to visit upon this country in future Budgets as you drive the economy into dust, driving up unemployment, cutting public services, and increasing Government debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3dc00a4e50c473c92666aedf7a501ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3dc00a4e50c473c92666aedf7a501ef\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002263a1dab8d43c4eec99f8fc9fc508a3ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263a1dab8d43c4eec99f8fc9fc508a3ba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call the Hon Dr Deborah Russell. I\u2019m looking for new content now, because I\u2019m aware that we\u2019ve been on this part for probably almost two hours, and we\u2019ve got several more parts to come, which will also be relevant. But I\u2019m going to take one more call and I\u2019m listening for very new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00229beb6ec0d46e4fcca1207086f63d6d6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229beb6ec0d46e4fcca1207086f63d6d6d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E OK. Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, this is the examination we have of this extremely important bill in lieu of having had a select committee stage. There is a series of questions here that we could have dug into at select committee and we still need to have a think about them here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to refer to something the Minister of Revenue said last night and some more information about that, which I haven\u2019t covered yet, coming out of the regulatory impact statement. Now, last night, I questioned the Minister about the lead times that payroll providers needed in order to get these tax threshold changes in place in time for people to actually get the money in their pay packets. I pointed out that Inland Revenue itself said,\u00A0in the regulatory impact statement, that payroll providers really needed to have a three-month lead time. Now, from 30\u00A0May to 31\u00A0July, when these changes come in, is two months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo I checked with the Minister. I said, \u201CThat doesn\u2019t seem like a very long time and they actually need three months.\u201D He pointed out that the regulatory impact statement was dated on 24\u00A0April, and in that time, between when the regulatory impact statement came out and the Budget itself, there had been some ongoing consultation with payroll providers to ensure that they\u2019d be able to get the changes in place. So they were pretty sure that they could meet that two-month lead time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fe47ed20fd6452a869dd8b01b3a2c15\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a new question in this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226018bc2b742646918202a7e509aeb36b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, there is a question coming right now. The Minister was sure about this. So I want to ask the Minister: can he guarantee that every employee will get the tax threshold changes in their pay packet in their first pay after 31\u00A0July? He said that they had consulted payroll, so I want to know: can he guarantee that? So that\u2019s the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to carry on because there\u2019s some more information in the regulatory impact statement that we haven\u2019t covered yet. I want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to paragraphs 49, 50, and 51 of the regulatory impact statement, which have not been discussed yet. Now, we discussed some of the large Government organisations in terms of their payrolls for their employees. But paragraphs 49, 50, and 51 point out that some large Government organisations have a whole set of other people to whom they are directing payments that are subject to income tax, and, in particular, payments made by the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) to beneficiaries, payments made by ACC under the compensation system, and payments made by the Ministry of Health. Now, we\u2019re talking lead times for payroll providers, and in paragraph 51, there are very specific numbers about how long each of those organisations think they need. So to make the necessary IT changes to ensure that people get that money in their back pocket, in their first pay, after 31\u00A0July\u2014and that\u2019s what the Minister has told us he can do\u2014ACC\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a22696893b14ca2802c36615b704e48\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t want them to get the money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272f035b51e68498fa4bcd0c9392419ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014take a call\u2014says that it needs eight to 13 weeks. So, OK, ACC is going to fit within that lead time or maybe the earlier lead time. MSD says that they need about three months from the Cabinet decision. Now, I\u2019m taking it that the Cabinet decision would have been made on 1\u00A0May, that\u2019s the first Cabinet after the regulatory impact statement. But here\u2019s the cracker: Health New Zealand says it needs four months\u2014it needs four months from the date of the Cabinet decision. Big workforce there, and that\u2019s what Health New Zealand said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo the Minister has put in place some changes to tax thresholds and he said that he\u2019s confident based on the consultation with payroll providers that it can be done for employees, but then, sitting in the regulatory impact statement for Health New Zealand, one of the largest employers in this country, is the very clear information that they need approximately four months from the date of the Cabinet decision, and that\u2019s only if they get told about it in advance of the Budget. It happens, because we\u2019ve got to get that sort of thing sorted. Now, the date of the Cabinet decision was 1\u00A0May, at the earliest\u2014so 1\u00A0June, 1\u00A0July, 1\u00A0August, 1\u00A0September. When are those people employed by Health New Zealand going to see the impact of these tax threshold changes in their pay packets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister has been absolutely confident that it can be delivered. I would like that guarantee that every employee will see the impact of the tax threshold changes after 31\u00A0July\u2014in their first pay packet after 31\u00A0July. He was confident last night\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9cc453a210441d5bdc31b07d26f8302\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9cc453a210441d5bdc31b07d26f8302\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220dd4896fcd734dd289534d7f999bb1d0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022efdb42ce52324878b84f207c3c274412\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efdb42ce52324878b84f207c3c274412\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clause 4 in Part 1 to replace dates with \u201C31\u00A0July\u00A02024\u201D and \u201C31\u00A0December\u00A02024\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022113dee50c737433b9d0fb37072ed39cd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9472363851e46da9bd71eede65efc8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9472363851e46da9bd71eede65efc8f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendments to insert new clauses 4A and 4B be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220937365679474eb3b6940ad65617d59d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022255cd2fc8cf2431ead6ea94c13b4a8ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022255cd2fc8cf2431ead6ea94c13b4a8ed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clause 4 in Part 1 to replace dates with \u201C1\u00A0July\u00A02024\u201D and \u201Cend of September\u00A02024\u201D be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f8333885ab174c13b30681e8a5aca958\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002269fb70acf3b64a67a38677aa6990ba9c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002228fa17dd3b244dc89d8ce92b20b7204b\u0022\u003EPart 2  Income Tax Act 2007 and Tax Administration Act 1994 amendments commencing 1July2024 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000051\u0022\u003E\u00A0\u00A0\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022808bb17b8f7141f197189e3bc3c6537e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022808bb17b8f7141f197189e3bc3c6537e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on Part\u00A02. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 8 to 24, \u201CIncome Tax Act 2007 and Tax Administration Act 1994 amendments commencing 1\u00A0July\u00A02024\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00228bf8cb3cd57d4eff8421f9e8500206df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bf8cb3cd57d4eff8421f9e8500206df\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to discuss, in particular, the childcare rebate. I find this a very clunky and unusual way of giving supposed relief to families. There\u2019s a number of issues that I want to traverse in my contribution, and questions that I want to ask of the Minister of Revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAs an ex - early childhood teacher and centre owner myself, I\u2019m interested to know if there\u2019s been any consultation with early childhood centres and if this is going to create any additional workload for them\u2014are they going to have to provide a certain type of receipt of paperwork for families that they will need to use to get their rebate from IRD? If I think back to my time in early childhood education, parents would often lose their receipt, their general receipt. They found it tricky enough to fill out everyday paperwork requirements within early childhood education itself. So you\u2019ve got families who live extremely busy, busy lives\u2014families where both parents often work, with one often working two jobs just to make ends meet. And you\u2019re giving them this rebate where they\u2019re going to have to fill out all this paperwork, collect their receipts, and pay for the childcare upfront. So let\u2019s be very clear about that. The money comes out of their pockets straight away; there is no relief straight away. They have to pay upfront, these families who are supposed to be getting relief from this Government. They have to pay money upfront, and we know that early childhood education in New Zealand is some of the most expensive in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo they\u2019re going to have to pay this money upfront, then collect all their paperwork\u2014and they can only do this every quarter\u2014take it along to IRD or send it off to IRD, and await their rebate, which will take some time to come through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo my question to you, Minister, is: how on earth is putting an extra administrative burden on families in order for them to get a rebate several months down the track after they\u2019ve forked out the money that they can barely afford to spend anyway\u2014how can you expect this to be successful? It is just clunky, and I\u2019m interested to know how the Minister sees this is going to be of any real benefit for families other than creating more administration and pressure on families that have busy enough lives as it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002218a47d983a484f919c9d760665a41c2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218a47d983a484f919c9d760665a41c2e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. Thank you very much for this opportunity. I stand interested, too, in the same matter of the rebate here. I\u2019m a former k\u014Dhanga reo pupil myself; I think the first k\u014Dhanga reo pupil into Parliament\u2014just a little something for us. Apparently, the k\u014Dhanga reo generation is here\u2014been here for 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBut, look, to the point: the regulatory impact statement is quite clear in talking about the participation rates of M\u0101ori, the cost there is, and the administrative barriers for M\u0101ori and Pacific families. But I want to focus on M\u0101ori as it\u2019s the one I know about the most. You\u2019ve seen with their tamariki o te k\u014Dhanga reo that the burden on them to continue to receive a rebate in this respect is cumbersome, it\u2019s onerous, and it will only further reduce the uptake on M\u0101ori for putting their tamariki into early childhood education (ECE). The regulatory impact statement (RIS) makes it very, very clear. It says there that it \u201Cwill provide a reduced benefit to M\u0101ori and Pasifika families due to these groups being less likely to pay for childcare, either due to ECE subsidies covering the costs already, lower ECE participation, or greater participation in informal/non-cash-based childcare.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis is a huge blow to many of the working families out there who want to send their tamariki to k\u014Dhanga reo. It\u2019s already difficult enough to get tamariki into k\u014Dhanga reo, and now they\u2019re being asked to front up with these costs. But then there is the administrative burden of going along to make sure that they receive their rebate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe next part to that is: what does this mean? It\u2019s not quite clear, and I\u2019d like the Minister of Revenue to explain to us what this means when it comes to k\u014Dhanga reo themselves supporting families to administer this particular rebate. That isn\u2019t an answer that\u2019s clearly provided for in the RIS, nor is it in the bill, so I\u2019d really appreciate it if the Minister could help us all understand what this means and what the burden means for the ECE provider. It says something in the bill there that the forms have to match up to the IRD. It says that in Part 2, clause 41C\u2014yep, I think that\u2019s the one. It says that the ECE provider has a little bit of work to do to make sure that they match up with the IRD forms, and I\u2019m wondering: (1) what does that cost our ECE providers and, in particular, k\u014Dhanga reo, who already struggle for money; and (2) will that then be passed on to families in increased cost for families who wish to put their tamariki into ECE?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo those are the questions I have for the Minister, and if he can explain what material impact that has, in particular, on M\u0101ori families, and whether or not, in their decision making, the Minister and the Cabinet considered how this will impact M\u0101ori and whether or not their uptake of ECE will rise or fall\u2014it\u2019s clear in the information in the RIS and in the feedback that we\u2019re getting already from the k\u014Dhanga reo sector that it will materially impact our families in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfb0dd561a54438d8579f8784eff6ef4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfb0dd561a54438d8579f8784eff6ef4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just in response to those questions, the FamilyBoost policy goes actually to the heart of what the last member was referring to in terms of the implications on families across the country, and is significant as a result of the early childhood education (ECE) fees in which they need to incur. In comparison to the status quo\u2014i.e., doing nothing\u2014this Government and this bill are implementing the ability for families to receive 25 percent of those ECE costs, up to a maximum of $150 per family per fortnight for those that are earning up to $180,000\u2014to have the ability to get that rebated back. Compared to the status quo, that is a significant benefit, and that money, irrespective of the background of those families, will be available for them to use against the impacts of the cost of living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement at clause 29 clearly says that M\u0101ori and Pasifika families are disproportionately impacted by the implications of ECE costs, and those families will benefit through the implementation of this policy, and that is a good thing in comparison to the status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to Jo Luxton\u2019s questions in regards to some of the conversations around how the rebate will work and language around that, again, the regulatory impact statement does outline some of the considerations around the way in which the ECE sector was engaged and was discussed, and that engagement was undertaken, acknowledging that there are considerations around Budget secrecy. But, at the end of the day, the objective for this coalition Government is to get that benefit into the hands of hard-working families who have children in ECE, as far as practical, and the considerations and the balances that my department and IRD need to draw is ensuring that we\u2019ve got an ability to ensure that those who are receiving those rebates will receive the appropriate amount of revenue back from that, to ensure that we\u2019ve got a good process in regards to compliance as well, and to ensure that who is getting the money should get the money. And I think we\u2019ve found that balance between the speed at which we execute and making sure that we ensure that the money goes to those who need it most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00223ad19412e0bb4d0b9add52d297770751\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ad19412e0bb4d0b9add52d297770751\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you very much to the Minister of Revenue for his comments. Since we have moved on to Part 2, I have some questions specifically about the FamilyBoost package, which will help some people with early childhood education costs. But I still want to focus and come back to a question I had asked last night, and the Minister responded to,\u00A0about annex 2, which is the distributional analysis of options in the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212463aafaa324928ae52bc18500cc987\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: If the question relates to Part 1, we can\u2019t go back there, and I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022712ec166a6844e078c5102678aa4d0c5\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, if you will, this distributional\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5af7ffc341e4342a746a2df19e3b57b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: If it\u2019s in this part, that\u2019s fine. I\u2019m just clarifying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0ba5acb56e541e1b18e16f16e7b16ba\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it includes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3d5f19c98c74cc0830b6b9a4abf65f0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t argue with the Chair, please. I\u2019m just saying that if it relates to Part 1, then we won\u2019t go back there, but if there is a part in Part 2 that\u2019s related to your question, we can take it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d41204e06304c32af867b670f4b58ef\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, as I was saying, option\u00A02\u2014the distributional impact analysis\u2014is for the whole package, which includes FamilyBoost, which is in Part 2. So I think the distributional impact analysis applies to more than just Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut I did have a follow-up question on his answer on that, because last night when I asked the Minister about how the\u2014in Figure 1, it shows the impact on household incomes by equivalent income quintile, which means we break down people\u2019s household income into five parts, and it shows that most of the benefit is accrued to the top two quintiles, to the highest-income families. The answer that the Minister gave at the time seemed to indicate that there were other transfers and that that was just the changes in the personal income tax thresholds. But, as I read it, it says that this distributional analysis applies not only to the change in personal income tax thresholds; it applies to the additional transfer policies\u2014that\u2019s what this says\u2014including FamilyBoost, the in-work tax credit increase, and the expansion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo I guess my question to the Minister is\u2014because he\u2019s saying that you can\u2019t just look at the tax changes in isolation; they\u2019re a whole package. But Figure 1 shows the weekly impact of the package on household incomes. So are there other changes over and above what\u2019s been analysed here that would change the distributional analysis that shows that higher-income households in New Zealand benefit more from the package of changes, including FamilyBoost, which is in Part 2, and, if that is the case, where is the distributional analysis that shows those additional policies? Because, from what I can tell, the package\u2014and bear with me\u2014includes four policies, which include the FamilyBoost policy, the in-work tax credit, and the other policy that is brought in by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFurthermore, I thought it was interesting that the Minister just referred to the status quo and how families with children will benefit. But the status quo would have been, as of March this year, universal 20 hours free for two-year-olds, which would have had a much bigger impact on many more families. So I\u2019m not sure, Minister, that it\u2019s fair to compare this policy, which is very complicated and very difficult to access. And I suspect that it\u2019s been designed that way to reduce the cost of it and to make it harder for some people to get it, because a lot of people won\u2019t have the ability\u2014especially when you have young children, it\u2019s the hardest time in your life. I can speak to this right now. To do life admin of filling out forms and trying to reclaim a reimbursement four times a year\u2014when do we have time to do that? If you\u2019re working full time and you\u2019ve got little children who take a lot of parenting, when do you have time to sit down and do all this admin? It would be so much easier to just extend the benefit to everyone with the 20 hours free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, according to the distributional analysis, FamilyBoost affects net incomes for 4\u00A0percent of all households and 12 percent of households with children. So 88 percent of households with children are not benefiting from FamilyBoost. And speaking specifically to M\u0101ori families, again, this analysis as compared to the overall population\u2014relatively fewer M\u0101ori and Pasifika peoples and women benefit from the overall package, including FamilyBoost. So I\u2019m interested in how the first question in this distributional analysis seems to indicate that the whole package, not just the personal income tax changes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9091a156a1c4292b86cf76d77a5f026\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebfefb313b72493d9b4748a52989ec20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebfefb313b72493d9b4748a52989ec20\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on this, which will be, I think, a big part of this section, because it\u2019s the only part we can discuss it. It\u2019s my amendment on the tabled amendment that I\u2019ve presented to the House, and I\u2019ll bring the Minister Simon Watts\u2019 attention to Part\u00A02, clause 3A, which inserts a new clause 3A into his Amendment Paper, and that would seek to amend section MD 13 of the Income Tax Act 2007, which this part of his Amendment Paper amends. The reason that this is probably going to be quite a big part of this section is that it\u2019s to do with the abatement thresholds, and its impact on the whole-Government tax plan is quite large.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo let me start with: what was sort of trailered and outlined prior to the Budget by the National Party about this amendment that I have put is that the family tax credit would be one of the main drivers of the distributive benefits of their tax plan and it would help lower-income earners to receive a greater proportion of the benefits that were being distributed by it. So my amendment would seek\u2014you know, it\u2019s not something that I necessarily agree with, but it is what was promised by National going into this Budget, and this amendment is required to do that. So I\u2019d like to engage with the Minister about what has changed in this bill, what was promised prior to the introduction of this bill and why they are different, and how my amendment would seek to close that gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo, under the family tax credit, you get $25 more, but it abates at the same rate and at the same level of income. Actually, there were two changes that were signalled here. One was that $25 change, which is good. It\u2019s good to see that people with children will be getting $25 extra; that\u2019s something we support. But, actually, the bigger cost to the Government that was canvassed prior to this bill, which has not been done by this bill, is that the change to the abatement threshold would be made in this kind of legislation, and that\u2019s where you would do it. The change to the abatement threshold is actually a bigger change to the Government\u2019s books, and it would make a bigger change for tens of thousands of families who would then become eligible for extra support, and that hasn\u2019t happened here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo, prior to this change coming in\u2014I also want to hear from the Minister, because it was said around the election campaign time that it would fit within the operating allowance to both do the $25 change and the change to the abatement threshold and that it would fit within the limits, but we\u2019re seeing here that that decision has not been made. So why was it that that was intended to fit within the Budget operating allowance but now does not fit within the Budget operating allowance? What trade-offs have been made? Have they been made in this bill, or are they elsewhere? This is something that we need to get into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also would like the Minister to comment about whether the trade-off that\u2019s being made here with not being able to do the abatement threshold is because of the interest deductibility cost, that has cost more than the Budget operating allowance that was canvassed prior to this bill being introduced into the House. So I want the Minister to engage with me a little bit about that before I ask him some more questions about the family tax abatement threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab80f5603f314274b152ba9e3a6287bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab80f5603f314274b152ba9e3a6287bf\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This has been quite a technical debate, but I have to go back to basics for the people of my electorate in Taieri and ask what on earth\u2014what on earth\u2014was the Government thinking when it introduced this kind of complicated rebate that people who do not have internet connections, because they have an average annual income of $26,000 a year\u2014many of them cannot afford to have home computers or internet. How on earth does this serve them? And it\u2019s interesting to see members opposite sniggering. I find that incredibly patronising to the people that I have the privilege of serving, people who have a family average household income of $26,000 a year. For many of them, they struggle to put food on the table. They struggle to get their kids to school. And now we are saying that they need\u2014in order to get this rebate that is supposed to be helping them\u2014to have an internet connection and to have the ability to do complicated paperwork, when they are just trying to survive day to day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWouldn\u2019t it have been better to look at some of the policy options that are listed in the regulatory impact statement (RIS) under section 19, such as \u201Creducing ECE fees through a direct subsidy to providers\u201D? Now, I\u2019d like to know if the Minister even considered that, because for many of the parents in my electorate, the ability to have the paperwork taken away and to have the really good early childhood education (ECE) providers in Taieri, in the rural communities, who are listed in the RIS as also being one of the population groups that would be disproportionately disadvantaged by this, that would have a barrier around it. It would be so much easier for the ECE to have a direct subsidy and those parents not to have to worry about this. Did the Minister consider that, or, because of the speed and the time by which they are trying to do this, did they just ignore that possibility? Did they not consult?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EAnd I note that the Minister said in his previous contribution that he talked about process and the status quo. Well, the problem with doing something like this is it looks like a fix and it kicks the can down the road for the people that will not be able to access this subsidy. So when the Minister made this trade-off about trying to introduce something that he said was speedy and was going to make a difference, did he consider the risk that those who would not be able to access it, for many different reasons that are being raised by colleagues on this side of the House\u2014did he consider the risk of now looking like there is a fix when,\u00A0in fact, it is kicking down the road a real solution that could have been consulted on properly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI note, Madam Chair, that in section 18 of the RIS, it talks about the fact that there were options that could not be examined in detail, because of scope and time. I\u2019ve talked about the ECE fees, but what about also regulatory price controls or changes to reduce the impact of other regulatory systems that increase operational costs for providers? For example, the play space requirements. That is a piece of really important policy work in the ECE sector. That is a strategic approach\u2014if this kind of approach had been taken to look at what could be done to support ECE providers to be able to make the difference that would be passed on to the parents. It really breaks my heart to think that not only are these families forgotten\u2014the families of the deep South who do not have the means to be able to do this or access to the internet\u2014but that somehow, now, it\u2019s being portrayed that there is a well-intentioned Government that is trying to look after them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThey are deliberately making it difficult\u2014or perhaps they live in an alternative reality where everybody has a whole lot of time to sit around in their homes accessing their many computers and doing their paperwork. Well, that is not the reality for many of the rural families in my electorate, and it is not the reality for the families that live in Corstorphine, for the families that live in Calton Hill, and for the families that come to my electorate office and ask for support for any kind of paperwork for pretty basic things. You have just put another door in their face. So my question\u2014and I have asked questions. [Interruption] Great to see the Government members engaging so much with this\u2014obviously they\u2019re very, very interested in this debate. I would like to hear those answers because, clearly, this has just been a once-over lightly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EFinally, \u201Cincreases to incomes of families utilising ECE through other government support and/or wage growth\u201D. What did the Minister do around value for money and targeted support to say how this intervention was going to help low-income families and rural families in Taieri and other places across New Zealand, instead of just trying to get this out the door? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022541aecab50794e55b94112110018e635\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022541aecab50794e55b94112110018e635\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Madam Chair, I thought we were doing quite well with the quality of questions until the last contribution. What I\u2019ll remind the member Ingrid Leary is that about 96 percent of the New Zealand population has access to the internet, and then, when you throw in the ability to use one\u2019s phone in that, I\u2019m sure access to the internet in that member\u2019s electorate, in regards to be able to claim this, is not going to be a significant issue. However, if there are individuals who do not have the internet, the ability to access Inland Revenue\u2019s myIR website is through public libraries and other assets like that. There are mechanisms through which people can deal with this, but the whole fact is, I think, a lot of people have access. So I\u2019ll leave it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the questions raised in regards to the fiscal implications or trade-offs in regards to Arena Williams\u2019 questions around the aspect around FamilyBoost, there was a consideration around that point. We\u2019ve had to make trade-offs in regards to a number of aspects of policy. The fiscal considerations of increasing that abatement threshold was at a degree that we chose not to do, and that\u2019s a decision that the coalition Government has taken. But what is clear is that the benefits versus the status quo are significant for a large number of New Zealand households with children, and that benefit will flow through as soon as practical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f77d66b97b5948ec9657b04dbeac401d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f77d66b97b5948ec9657b04dbeac401d\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Labour\u2014Panmure-\u014Ct\u0101huhu):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava, Madam Chair, and thank you for the call. Manuia le vaiaso o le Gagana Samoa, and that is where I would like to begin my contribution, my questions, this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe comment from the Minister of Revenue that everyone, or 90 percent or so, have access to the internet actually does not address the fact that some people, including Samoans and Tongans, may not be literate in English. They may be fully literate in Samoan, they may be fully literate in Tongan, but that does not actually necessarily mean that they are literate in English. That is actually one of the questions I\u2019d like to pose to the Minister. How is this Government going to address the cultural and linguistic needs of Pacific families in relation to the FamilyBoost tax credit? Are there any materials and assistance available in languages other than English?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EI would like to refer to the census data that has just come out two days ago, which actually shows that Pacific people make up 442,632 people in Aotearoa New Zealand today\u2014an increase of 16\u00A0percent compared to the last census figures in 2018. So we\u2019re talking about a huge number of the population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we need to also consider is more than 50 percent of Pacific people actually have young families. So when you look at the regulatory impact statement, one of the things that it actually covers is the fact that, in paragraph 31, any Government support targeted at alleviating early childhood education (ECE) costs will provide a reduced benefit to M\u0101ori and Pasifika families due to these groups being less likely to pay for childcare, either due to ECE subsidies covering the cost already or to lower ECE\u00A0participation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure it is actually the intent of this Government\u2014any Government\u2014to ensure that we have better participation for early childhood, because it is to all of our benefit that we encourage as many families as possible to ensure that they have their children participating in early childhood. But here\u2019s the thing: not as many of our families do participate in early childhood, whether we\u2019re talking about M\u0101ori families or Pasifika families and, if we\u2019re looking at South Auckland, quite a lot of our ethnic community families as well. If we\u2019re to look back at the census data, the highest rate of increase is our ethnic families, those who are new migrants to our country. We know that they are going to continue to be the fastest-growing population in Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESo the question that I pose about Pasifika families also equally applies to ethnic families. Is the Government going to ensure that the materials that they\u2019re going to provide will ensure that our ethnic families know how to actually access this FamilyBoost credit so that they can actually ensure that they can claim this tax? Giving families who are really busy\u2014especially families with two or three or four kids\u2014who may not necessarily be literate in English, and who may not actually have access to the internet, an extra task of how to claim this funding is actually not fair. It is not fair. There, I\u2019m sure, would have been a better way of ensuring that this kind of support from Government is something that many more of our families could actually claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAnother question I would have is: how are we going to ensure that those who do not currently participate in the online platforms or in traditional media know that this FamilyBoost is even an option to them? Many of our ethnic communities do not necessarily watch our mainstream media, whether it\u2019s TV. They have their own ethnic community radios. How is this Government going to ensure that they will know this is something that they can claim? Are they going to also translate materials into all of the major ethnic community languages that we should? Those are the questions I would like to pose the Minister. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002293747afe224248cbbcda973435c6cf47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293747afe224248cbbcda973435c6cf47\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I thank the member for the question. The Inland Revenue already provides a wide range of language support services. If customers are not fluent in English, then their family members can support them to call 0800\u00A0700\u00A0334\u2014that\u2019s 0800\u00A0700\u00A0334. That\u2019ll go through the IRD department, and a language interpreter, including those that are able to speak Samoan, will be available to walk through those constituents to help them with the FamilyBoost policy. You can get more information on IRD\u2019s website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002238acf744d97a46a2b2055239ae418633\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238acf744d97a46a2b2055239ae418633\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This particular part is of great interest to me, as the Green Party spokesperson for education, and I do have a whole series of questions on this particular part. But I would like to start with a broader question around this, and I appreciate that this would have been something that we were able to tease out in select committee, which is: what sort of modelling\u2014and I appreciate what the Minister of Revenue is trying to do in terms of alleviating some of the financial burden this places on families. So the question is: what modelling has the Minister or the authorities done that suggests that the additional money isn\u2019t simply going to be absorbed by, in particular, for-profit early childhood education companies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo the reason I ask this is in the data\u2014for example, in the Consumers Price Index childcare index from January\u00A02005 to June\u00A02022, it stated that as part of a new introduction, although it alleviates the cost immediately, the sector\u2014particularly the for-profit sector of early childhood education (ECE)\u2014will soon catch up to that cost. Privatisation of ECE is a hungry beast, and the for-profit companies of ECE will absorb some of these costs, as we have seen in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAnother report also shows, when you analyse it, that\u2014in the OECD report, which analyses more than 25 countries, it says that with tax rates and benefits, it is estimated that a New Zealand household with two preschoolers and two parents working full-time at an average wage spent 37 percent of their net income on childcare. That is triple the OECD average of 13 percent. Again, when we are looking at policies like this, what mechanisms and what modelling has there been that suggest that the sector isn\u2019t simply going to catch up and absorb that cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to draw attention to the regulatory impact statement (RIS) for FamilyBoost. What is quite concerning, when we\u2019re looking at paragraph 14 of the RIS\u2014and this is something that has also been reported extensively\u2014is the fact that there is simply a lack of fees data when it comes to early childhood education providers. We do not keep that kind of data. One of the biggest limitations and barriers in this, for both the Ministry of Education as well as Inland Revenue, is around the fact there is a lack of fee transparency that we\u2019re seeing in this sector. So, again, to the Minister: what additional modelling and information and evidence has been produced since the release and the printing of the regulatory impact statement to reassure families, to reassure parents with multiple young children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe already heard from my colleague Julie Anne Genter in terms of the compliance burden and the administrative burden this will create on parents of young children. I\u2019m sure, for those on the other side of the Chamber\u2014with Dan having become a new father\u2014this is something that he will be very interested in as well. What sort of modelling has been provided that suggests that this money simply isn\u2019t going to be reabsorbed by the sector and that it provides not just administrative burden but genuine relief to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWith that, I would like to point to another section of the operation\u2014and this is the refund model. We\u2019re looking at options two and three on pages\u00A016\u00A0to\u00A017 of the regulatory impact statement for FamilyBoost, paragraph 58. It says, \u201CThe impacts of the non-monetised costs and benefits have been determined through Inland Revenue\u2019s previous [operation] \u2026 [and] assumptions made on the cost for parents and the ECE sector.\u201D But what is concerning is the table itself says that the total monetised costs, in terms of the benefits, are \u201CTo be confirmed\u201D, and the non-monetised benefit of this is \u201CLow\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, again, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind shedding some light on the overall picture of FamilyBoost and exactly how much benefit is going to provided, because the data and evidence we have here is not clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7852af869ff43e2b1767994ff64630a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7852af869ff43e2b1767994ff64630a\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m only on to the second page of this regulatory impact statement, and I\u2019ve got several questions that I would like to ask the Minister here. I do know that the fees structures in early childhood education (ECE) centres vary very broadly across many centres, and there is no oversight, exactly, of what centres charge parents in the way of fees. I note that it says here that \u201CThe lack of fees data also impacts the practicability of a tax credit linked to childcare expenditure.\u201D So if you don\u2019t have that data, how do you determine what is the best way to provide this tax credit? Would it not have been more prudent for the Minister or ministry to undertake a whole lot of work around the fees and fee structures of ECE centres in order to deliver a better option?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe second question I have for the Minister is\u2014I note here that it says, \u201CInland Revenue has not been able to undertake any consultation with the public due to time constraints and Budget secrecy conventions\u201D, and I get that, but this very policy impacts the very public, the people who are most important and who are most affected by this change. There has been no consultation with parents in order to understand what they think about this proposed policy. And I know that it talks about Budget secrecy. However, the National Party did campaign on this, so I believe there\u2019s been plenty of time to consult\u00A0with parents about their views on whether this was actually going to be workable. We\u2019ve heard that it\u2019s going to be terribly, terribly administratively burdensome. So my question is: why on earth was there no consultation undertaken with parents who this impacts the most?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002217aa5d6bde19416a8d115d35de8b8198\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217aa5d6bde19416a8d115d35de8b8198\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I too want to talk about, and ask a question to the Minister of Revenue about, the people who this policy will impact the most, which, perhaps, according to the regulatory impact statement, will make early childhood education (ECE) more restrictive to that demographic and to those people. There seems to be a lack of consultation between Education here and Inland Revenue and other demographics. It just seems to be a messy policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ELast night, the Early Childhood Council came out and said that this Budget didn\u2019t deliver for their members and, in fact, that it was actually like a cut to their members. Now, this is the Early Childhood Council, who have very traditionally probably been more right leaning on the political spectrum, but they are very disappointed in what this Budget means for them. And I notice in the regulatory impact statement that it says that \u201CIt is anticipated that without Government intervention, the current high inflation environment and trends in the price measures for the ECE sector may result in ECE costs continuing to increase.\u201D Now, that\u2019s exactly what was said to the Minister of Education last night by the Early Childhood Council\u2014that is that this doesn\u2019t meet the rate of inflation. And so, therefore, they are going to possibly have to put those costs and those cuts, as they see it, back on to the people who are accessing their services. What that means is that fees are likely to rise for those parents, because they cannot sustain the services that they have at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ENow, we hear that this FamilyBoost is about increasing participation. Those two just do not match up. They cannot match up, because when you\u2019ve got, on one hand, the Early Childhood Council saying that it is like a cut for their members and then you\u2019ve got, in this, the FamilyBoost saying that this will increase participation, it just can\u2019t. It absolutely can\u2019t. So I\u2019m really concerned about those demographics that find it really expensive now, those people who come from low socio-economic backgrounds who need early childhood education to be able to get themselves back into the workforce, to be able to participate in the workforce, and to actually give their young people a really good start in life through a really solid education. Those things really concern me, and it actually says that in the regulatory impact statement in paragraph 11. It says, \u201CIf ECE costs do rise,\u201D\u2014and we\u2019ve already had that signalled over the last two days\u2014\u201Can increasing number of families may no longer be able to afford some ECE hours. This may restrict their ability to work or could result in pressure on other types of families spending to maintain ECE hours, consequently reducing families\u2019 income adequacy, work incentives and/or ECE participation rates.\u201D Now, that is really serious\u2014really serious. Not only does it stop people accessing the workforce, but it hinders those young people who need that great start in education the most being able to access it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo I have a really important question for the Minister. Surely the modelling has been done around this, with something that this party and the National Party campaigned on very much when they were in their campaign mode. They must have done the modelling around those demographics who would actually be hindered by this. I want to know what that modelling showed. I want to know how many young people from those low socio-economic demographics who need quality education, quality early childhood education, the most. How many will this hurt? Just like it says in the regulatory impact statement, how many will not be able to access that childcare? How many people will have work restrictions put on them because of this poorly thought-out policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002206ca09cc33174e87891e200fdc7f14ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206ca09cc33174e87891e200fdc7f14ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity to take my first call on this bill. I want to pay particular attention to the clauses dealing with the FamilyBoost tax credit, particularly clause 12. I guess I appreciate the intent of trying to address costs for families, while I share the multiple concerns raised by the Hon Jan Tinetti just before me. But my question to the Minister of Revenue relates to the policy intent of this tax credit. Why is it that this particular focus of childcare costs was taken? And what was it that led to this being prioritised, this cost for families, while other costs have been put back on families in this Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn particular, I\u2019m thinking of the prescription co-pay waiver that was brought in in Budget 2023, that this Budget now repeals. That is, effectively, a tax on the sick. Now, the sick, who have to pay additional for their medicines, and young working people\u2014many of\u00A0the people will also be eligible for their tax credits\u2014have to face increased costs because their prescriptions are no longer free. So why is it that the rebates are for this cost and not\u00A0for the additional cost put on to people who have illnesses in New Zealand? Multiple costs: if you have a chronic condition, you\u2019d expect to pick up multiple prescriptions a year. We know that there are multiple public policy benefits from having a policy in place which means that people are kept out of hospital. It\u2019s thought that there\u2019s a 34 percent increase in\u00A0hospitalisations for people who have chronic conditions and cannot get their medicines, because of the changes this Government is bringing in. So why is it that this particular cost\u00A0is being addressed by the Government through this clause and not the cost for people who have chronic conditions and who need medicines? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ENot to mention, it\u2019s not just people with chronic conditions who need medicines. Perfectly healthy people also need medicines. For example, women need medicines for contraception, and yet it seems like these costs aren\u2019t considered important costs by this Government to address, and there\u2019s a focus here on a small rebate. But, on the other hand, the Government, through its Budget, takes away an important support for people who need access to medicines in New Zealand. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00224acc4d0b908548bdbdf855667dcdddaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224acc4d0b908548bdbdf855667dcdddaa\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to have my first call on this. I have a series of questions for the Minister, but I\u2019ll keep the contribution here to the first of those. The regulatory impact statement outlines quite clearly that there are concerns around the potential effectiveness of the policy that\u2019s being proposed in Part 2 around FamilyBoost\u2014in particular, the limitations on the assessment of this policy. It raises questions about whether the sector is able to make the\u00A0necessary changes. It also raises questions as to whether this is the most effective way in which to deliver the policy intent. It outlines that there will be a post-implementation review to see if what is being proposed actually does what is suggested. And there have been some\u00A0really important questions raised thus far in this debate that are yet to be adequately addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo to add to that, if this doesn\u2019t work, if the requirements on families, the administrative burden\u2014and I\u2019m thinking particularly those that don\u2019t have access to what some families in larger urban areas do. So specifically rural families who don\u2019t have access to the same level of internet and other technologies that would assist in what is required administratively in this\u2014what if they can\u2019t do it? And what if, at the end of the day, this policy isn\u2019t actually effective for those families? In that post-implementation review, what is the time frame on that and what does the Minister expect that that review will cover, if they truly intend to assist the families with the cost of early childhood education, as is outlined in the policy intention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f85ccc9038a945f497b4c4c3b0349b8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f85ccc9038a945f497b4c4c3b0349b8c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have two questions, the first of which should be relatively easy and quick for the Minister of Revenue to answer. This part and the next part both make changes to the Tax Administration Act. It is impossible for us to check through the Tax Administration Act and check every section against amendments. In the last Government, we changed the Tax Administration Act to give the Inland Revenue Department the power to collect information for policy purposes, not just tax administration purposes. It was that power that was used in order to inquire into the effective distribution of wealth, tax paid, and economic incomes of the very wealthy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat led to the Taxation Principles Reporting Act to report on those issues into the future. The Government, under urgency, repealed the tax principles Act. I know there are many people in society that didn\u2019t like the scrutiny that came upon the actual state of affairs in New Zealand through the information collection powers for policy purposes. My first question is: I want confirmation from the Minister that nothing in this part, or indeed other parts\u2014otherwise I\u2019m going to have to ask the question again in respect of other parts\u2014repeals or amends the section relating to the collection of information by Inland Revenue for policy purposes. That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy second question, sir, because I do believe in the to and fro on\u2014well, actually, if the Minister is ready to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002207897eb99150457b94491f3393f99fb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207897eb99150457b94491f3393f99fb1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb414c22ef41404c86e52abebf0285c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb414c22ef41404c86e52abebf0285c2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that confirmation. My second question relates to the fiscal consequences of the change to the FamilyBoost package. I can\u2019t\u00A0find the cost of this measure, to gauge its effectiveness, in the Budget documents. The summary of tax initiatives on page\u00A049 of the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update includes global figures for changes to personal income tax and the independent earning tax credit, and\u00A0some other things, but doesn\u2019t list it. So it\u2019s not significant enough to make that page. I\u2019ve gone through the summary of initiatives, which goes through the Votes, or changes to Votes, by ministry. I\u2019ve checked for revenue; it\u2019s not separately listed there. I\u2019ve checked the pre-Budget announcements; it\u2019s not there. I\u2019ve checked the Ministry of Social Development; it\u2019s not there. And I\u2019ve checked Education, and I can\u2019t see it there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, it is possible that I\u2019m missing something, but I would like to know\u2014and I think it\u2019s fair of the committee to want to know\u2014what is the fiscal consequences of the FamilyBoost package? And why is that relevant? Well, we ought to know that as we pass legislation that changes these rules, but also we know from other documents released in the Budget that the overall effect of this Budget is to increase the number of children below the poverty line. I think it\u2019s relevant for us to know whether some other change to the FamilyBoost payment would have had a greater effect on child poverty. And we can\u2019t tell, if we don\u2019t know how much the cost of this initiative is. So I would like to know what the fiscal cost of the FamilyBoost package is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u002213445f65988841c5a5b5a43ad78096f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213445f65988841c5a5b5a43ad78096f2\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m very pleased to be able to have the opportunity to also add to the list of questions that my colleagues have asked. Minister Watts, it\u2019s really important that I am able to give you, or highlight, the concerns from my community and also for the local M\u0101ngere community, because we have over 25 early childhood education (ECE) providers which sit across the spectrum from very well resourced, to community kindergartens, and we have lots of young people, little children, for whom education in our mother tongue and in our Samoan and Pasifika languages is very important. I do want to thank my colleague the Hon Jenny Salesa for pointing out some of the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I have questions around the consultation, because some of the decisions\u2014and I\u2019m referring to the regulatory impact statement, and I quickly read the information that has been provided. Why has there been no specific consultation with M\u0101ori, with Pasifika, with ethnic communities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022082e18043caf4bfb925f74a25d14f84d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: And rural. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296ca831eb5c04ef488b761887e9dcfad\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and rural communities. That ECE, which gives a great boost for languages and early childhood education, is a very important component in a child\u2019s life. Why has there been no consultation, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EBut, Minister, also too, it tells of all the benefits in the regulatory impact statement of this policy, but there\u2019s a big weighting aside that the onus is put directly on families. The assumption has been made that many of the families who this impacts are well resourced. What about the families who have English as their second or their third language? How are they supposed to get around understanding this new policy and the speed of this policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EMinister, I also want to ask: what was the consultation with ECE centres\u2014specifically, ECE centres that come from areas where there\u2019s more than one language, such as te reo M\u0101ori, but also in rural communities\u2014and why has that not been provided for our members to understand the impacts of this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EAlso, Minister, for your information, it now provides a competitive factor for ECE centres that were working really, really well in terms of a community like M\u0101ngere or South Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I want to say to you that the policy of FamilyBoost has some good intentions, but it provides a number of problems that our families are going to be faced with in communities that I represent. It\u2019s really important that the education that is given to communities for who English is their second or third language\u2014that they understand clearly what the benefits are of this policy. How will that help when you\u2019ve got a very diverse community in different parts of Aotearoa? What is the face of the future of those young children whose parents may not be able to access the system, because it\u2019s just too complicated, Minister? I appreciate that you have provided that Inland Revenue does have a service that provides interpretation or staff. Is Inland Revenue going to be resourced well to cope with the demand that is coming? It\u2019s coming in on 1\u00A0July\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019ve got in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, if you could help me understand those specific issues, it would be really helpful. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225bf950aae9d54400b0de90d981694ae9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bf950aae9d54400b0de90d981694ae9\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much. It\u2019s good to hear a number of members on my left are supportive of the FamilyBoost policy. I\u2019m looking forward, hopefully, maybe, to see them supporting this part of the bill when we come to the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the Hon David Parker\u2019s questions\u2014actually, the answer to your question is in the fact sheet, which is outlined as part of the documents supporting the Budget. There is a line there for FamilyBoost which outlines the average fiscal impact on the Crown over the period of the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267c49944a316450ea5f756f403a65465\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: What is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebb73252bfaf463fb8dfb8283dca48dc\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Page\u00A07, which is $0.18 billion on average\u2014$667 million over the total forecast period. It\u2019s also outlined\u2014I appreciate the member might not have done too many Budgets before\u2014in the summary of initiatives document, as well, where it\u2019s outlined on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d67df4bac9c44a5fbc8bea5962eef243\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: What page? Because I couldn\u2019t find it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc12801d6b2e4f77b196467c49388722\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t got the page, but I\u2019m sure if you have a look through it, we\u2019ll come back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other questions by the Hon Jo Luxton in regards to public consultation: I\u2019ve covered that in earlier questions. It\u2019s also included in the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe questions by the Hon Jan Tinetti in regards to the distributional impacts: again, there were questions raised by other members on the same question for which I have provided contents, and there is also information in the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe Hon Ayesha Verrall, in regards to trade-offs between health and other aspects: well, I\u2019m proud that we\u2019re a coalition Government that is putting $8 billion more into health. That is a significant implication, but we\u2019re talking about a tax bill here, and we\u2019re clear in terms of our priorities as part of that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe Hon Kieran McAnulty, in regards to limitations or implementations around the assessment process and the actual review: again, I have answered those questions already. There\u2019s information as part of the regulatory impact statement, again, in regards to that, and those are pretty much the questions that I put on my list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9651343ffa7411582dd86899e6aa8b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9651343ffa7411582dd86899e6aa8b5\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chairperson. I\u2019m just seeking your view on a situation when, over an extended period of debate, which this is\u2014obviously, it started yesterday, and this has carried on through to today\u2014if a Minister claims to have answered a question but that is in dispute, how would you consider that, because I know that the Minister\u2019s response to questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f42937cc5644dc3876370da95b032fc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Could you turn this into a point of order, and then you could take it as a call. But it\u2019s not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4f919436b864eba99537941355c1c04\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, sir\u2014I did call for a point of order. It might have been missed. Point of order, sir. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517d5ceddc2747569e263e69cf9f675c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, my understanding is that this is not a point of order. So if you could actually point to where the order has been disrupted or the Standing Orders or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0eeaf52845a45d8821c6a9a2a5b6db3\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, sir, we understand that a large part of the criteria by which you assess whether an issue has been dealt with is the Minister of Revenue\u2019s engagement with questions. My concern is that, as has just happened, the Minister has claimed that he has answered the question and it is very much in dispute by members on this side of the Chamber, because we believe that just simply touching on the same subject actually isn\u2019t answering the questions. So my point of order is a question, and that is: how will that be assessed by the Chair? Because if a Minister simply says \u201CI\u2019ve answered that.\u201D and that is taken as fact when it is in dispute, the concern from members on this side of the Chamber is that that will be deemed as engagement when, actually, we believe it not to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002207101c36ee614f95928e775f4b8eb51a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207101c36ee614f95928e775f4b8eb51a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for the clarity of the committee, we do have track sheets. I am trying my best to track, from my perspective, whether the questions have been addressed or not\u2014hence, the reason why I gave you the last call. But we\u2019ll take another call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022c791aff8ea5343639f29f094071c356f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c791aff8ea5343639f29f094071c356f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m very grateful to have finally been given a call on this part of the bill. My colleagues have traversed a\u00A0number of the issues to do with the bill from the point of view of people who might be\u00A0eligible to receive this rebate. I want to traverse some rather more technical details, and I\u00A0also have a series of questions around the administrative costs for the Inland Revenue Department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EFollowing on from the compliance costs that my colleagues have been talking about, I want to move to the administrative costs as to how Inland Revenue (IR) is going to handle this. Looking at the regulatory impact statement (RIS), there\u2019s a pretty standard assessment of options sitting on page\u00A014 of the regulatory impact statement\u2014looking at option 1, which is the status quo, and option 3, which is expanding the time line for implementation. Now, that option 3 was one where the rebate would have flowed through to parents to use early childhood services much more smoothly, because it would have involved IR collecting information from early childhood providers and meshing it all together in their fancy information system and then sending refunds out automatically to people who had been paying childcare fees. Now, that option was discarded, because it would have taken two or three years more to get to it. So that option was not on the table, and, actually, if you think about the kind of IT build that was needed for it, that\u2019s probably a pretty sensible move to not try to do that kind of thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe status quo is nothing, but then option 2\u2014the basic refund models. We\u2019ve got this refund model for this rebate. So families have to pay their childcare fees up front, they get the receipts from their childcare provider, they upload those to the Inland Revenue Department, and, all going well, the Inland Revenue Department sends them some money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut, looking through the list of whether or not this is positive or negative, the positives in this table are that it increases the income of eligible families, which is obviously a positive, and they say that there\u2019s a potential to promote fee transparency\u2014I\u2019m marginal on that, but, you know, I wouldn\u2019t want to override the insights of the officials. But then there\u2019s a series of negatives. There\u2019s compliance costs for providers\u2014that\u2019s a negative. There\u2019s compliance costs for customers\u2014it\u2019s a double negative. The fiscal cost to the Government is a double negative, but, you know, Governments make choices about where to spend their money. The time required for implementation compared to the status quo\u2014obviously, that\u2019s a negative. Anything new you\u2019re doing does take time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut the one that I\u2019m concerned about is from the point of view of the Inland Revenue Department, and there is a double negative on administration costs. I just want to discuss this with the Minister of Revenue a little because there are a number of comments in the regulatory impact statement about how the costs associated with this option are going to affect the Inland Revenue Department. So if we\u2019re looking at paragraph 72 of the RIS, which is right on the back page, it says that Inland Revenue is going to have to be required to develop invoice verification processes. They\u2019ll be automated, where possible, but they\u2019re going to have to check that those invoices\u2014actually, I\u2019m hoping they\u2019re receipts proving that the person using the childcare has actually paid, because that\u2019s what the model demands. They\u2019re going to have to monitor for fraud. There\u2019s going to be a bit of an integrity risk as it\u2019s going to rely on invoices presented by parents, rather than the Inland Revenue Department directly receiving information from the providers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a whole set of administrative costs sitting in there for the Inland Revenue Department, so what I would like to know from the Minister is just how much more it is going to cost Inland Revenue to process these refunds, what kind of consideration that had on the thinking in terms of whether this was the best route to go down, and whether those administrative costs are justified, and I want to know what sorts of administrative costs have been taken into account. So, for example, we know that while most of the people claiming this refund will do it with a bit of honesty and integrity, there will be those who seek to game the system and to perhaps claim refunds that they\u2019re not entitled to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like to know, in terms of the thinking around the administrative costs for the Inland Revenue Department, how much thought has been given to how many extra people will be needed in order to police this arrangement, because there\u2019s a whole set of integrity issues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00229671229d8c154e5b849b174fe22bd810\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229671229d8c154e5b849b174fe22bd810\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229d88b94139ea4248b17dc94a0cb07987\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d88b94139ea4248b17dc94a0cb07987\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just responding to the member\u2019s question in regards to the compliance implications. The member\u2019s right. There are scenarios where, potentially, people will try to test the system. Those considerations have obviously been made by the department, and in terms of operational nature and the way in which they respond, they will do so appropriately. But it is something that has been considered and is being worked through as part of the process in which we assess to implement this overarching FamilyBoost policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe reality is that we\u2019ve outlined\u2014and I outlined it again, but I\u2019ll say it again: just in terms of the overarching process, the balancing factor here was getting those payments into the back pockets of hard-working families as fast as possible, acknowledging that there are technical challenges around how we do that. The way which has been recommended by officials is the position which we\u2019ve landed on. We acknowledge that there are going to be some challenges, but we\u2019re balancing out the speed of execution versus the ability to ensure that we\u2019ve got the right measures and balances in place, and I think we\u2019ve got that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e08d8de6e1f940dcbb077850db6f056b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Julie Anne Genter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f197efd291e74b6ea2b0924bef13c45f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f197efd291e74b6ea2b0924bef13c45f\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s me? Oh, great. Mr Chair, thank you. I have a series of questions for the Minister. I would really appreciate an answer\u2014I can\u2019t find it in either the specific regulatory impact statement for the FamilyBoost or the more broad one. How many families are expected to receive the full benefit of the FamilyBoost? That\u2019s the full $75 per week. Did he seek or receive any advice on how to ensure more families get the full support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThen, why is it capped at $75 per family when a family with two children in full-time care\u2014$75 a week will be less than 15 percent of the total cost rather than the 25\u00A0percent I know that the Government and the Minister have said they they\u2019re really hoping to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFinally, about the rules\u2014I guess I\u2019m interested in the relationship rules. So how does the FamilyBoost work for single parents? If we imagine a single mother who\u2019s paying all of her children\u2019s early childhood education costs is eligible for the FamilyBoost based on her income but she ends up with a new partner\u2014a de facto partner\u2014after a couple of years who\u2019s not contributing to her childcare costs, because it\u2019s not their child, but that partner earns above the threshold, will the single mother still get the FamilyBoost, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224b442ff9c575493783fa210b89fc21b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b442ff9c575493783fa210b89fc21b9\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Just in response to that question, around 21,000 families will get the full impact of the FamilyBoost policy; around 100,000 families will be able to get some benefit from the overarching policy. Consideration was put in terms of single-parent families and the way in which the mechanics of that will work, including those that are with children in foster care and other considerations like that\u2014all of that thinking was put through. The quite simple reality is that they will be able to claim the benefit through that process, and guidance around how they do that is included in the supporting material online on the IRD website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022742ed659a47c42d5840f52bb8b126f60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022742ed659a47c42d5840f52bb8b126f60\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Julie Anne Genter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00228e83112ce63d49cc89647c850a12a5a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e83112ce63d49cc89647c850a12a5a1\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, I can\u2019t quite hear you, Mr Chair. Just on the third question about it being capped at $75 a week, though, does that mean it will be less than 25 percent of the total cost for those families that have two children in full-time care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI do just want to come back to the question, Minister Watts\u2014I think maybe you haven\u2019t quite answered it yet\u2014which is about this Figure 1 in the distributional analysis of options. It does seem to indicate that households with the highest incomes in New Zealand benefit much more than the middle and low income households from the total package, including the FamilyBoost. Last night, the Minister indicated that this was only an analysis of the personal income tax changes. However, the annex of the regulatory impact statement on the personal income tax relief does seem to indicate this is the entire package. So, even with the transfers that the Government\u2019s announced, it does seem to disproportionately benefit the highest-income families. Is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229297ac87490344f9aa690701bab4a34d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229297ac87490344f9aa690701bab4a34d\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I\u2019ll just clarify that point. So the graph that the member\u2019s referring to in the regulatory impact statement for personal income tax, in the graphs, is reflective of the four elements of the initiatives, not the individual components. It actually does encompass all elements. So just to correct that point. There isn\u2019t any separate analysis of each bucket that we have, but what you\u2019re seeing there is a combination of all of the policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022394ec8061f4d4995af5b5a50c8c5a382\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022394ec8061f4d4995af5b5a50c8c5a382\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m sorry, I\u2019m finding it a little hard to hear you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247257158151a4daf9cc4bd0450487a41\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Deborah Russell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e79696d337bb45bda98132891fd8bc74\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, I appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa5346aeff494b5a8b8dc3168f9088c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll sit up straighter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022038899353cd24e219ba526afcc8db23e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I do want to bring something to the attention of the Minister. This will be my last call before I get into the technical stuff, if I do get further calls. It\u2019s a message I got from a Rotorua father yesterday. He contacted me and said he\u2019d taken a screenshot of what he thought that his family would get from these tax changes\u2014the overall four changes that the Minister has just referred to. I have the screenshot here, and he says that he and his family will get about $190 a fortnight. But what he was confused about is when he was going to get that. So I\u2019ll just read his message. He says\u2014I won\u2019t give his partner\u2019s name, but his partner, \u201Cearning $100,000 and me getting nothing\u201D\u2014he\u2019s a full-time caregiver\u2014\u201Cwith our two kids, four years old and one year old.\u201D So it says they\u2019re going to get $190.10. Sounds great. \u201CSo when does the money start flowing in? Or do I\u00A0have to go through some sort of convoluted process? So unsure.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve already talked a lot about the processes, but I think the question for this Rotorua father\u2014and it was a very serious one, because the way it was presented in the tax calculator on the Budget website is that that $190 a fortnight would be available to him really from early August\u2014that\u2019s when the changes start flowing in. But I\u2019m pretty sure that the way that this childcare tax credit, rebate, refund\u2014whatever we\u2019re calling it\u2014is done is that, in actual fact, that money won\u2019t get into that family\u2019s back pocket until some time in October. So sitting on the tax calculator is the implication it\u2019s going to be there from early August. He\u2019s looking forward to getting that extra money. They need it in their family. They\u2019ve got those two little ones in childcare. But I\u2019d just like the Minister to clarify, for the benefit of that Rotorua father, when he and his family can start seeing the benefit of this childcare tax rebate. When will it actually arrive in their bank accounts? And I know it can be claimed from 1\u00A0October, but sitting in this, we need to understand how quickly the Inland Revenue Department can process those receipts. So what is a realistic time frame for this daddy to understand when that money will get into his family\u2019s bank account?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022245581d1995b4b9da02457bc302f1bdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022245581d1995b4b9da02457bc302f1bdf\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Meitaki maata, Mr Chair. Thank you. This is my first call on this bill, and I have a number of questions for the Minister, in my capacity as Labour\u2019s associate education spokesperson for Pacific. My questions relate around the ability for Pacific providers and for anau to engage with this proposed process in a way that is easy and right for them. It\u2019s very clear that there are administration pressures that face the early childhood education (ECE) sector on a regular basis. So I\u2019m yet to hear from the Minister around what level of support is proposed to be put in for those providers in order to meet the additional administrative expectations moving from what might be in many situations an annual form of accountability or receipting to, for many, four times per year. So that\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESecond is around this issue of consultation. I\u2019m yet to hear a response from the Minister that directly relates to the level of consultation with our Pasifika community. I refer to the regulatory impact statement (RIS), specifically paragraphs 21 and 22, which identify that in terms of this creating an increase in administrative capacity, it will be important to consult with the ECE sector. But the RIS doesn\u2019t just say, actually, it\u2019s important; it uses the word \u201Ccrucial\u201D. So I think that\u2019s a higher threshold. So I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister around what guarantees can be provided that there is a crucial level of engagement with the sector around these changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAnother question from me is around whether families might be in a position\u2014for\u00A0example, if life administration is quite tough, and that\u2019s the case for many\u2014to have a number of receipts and how that might be easily accessed and able to be filed, and, if so\u2014i.e., there\u2019s a retrospective sort of condition\u2014then what\u2019s the liability for the Government as part of that process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EStatistics New Zealand identify that around 24 percent of children have care arrangements with grandparents. And in a Pasifika context, that can mean a whole range of things in terms of whether it\u2019s a grandparent or an aunt or an uncle or what have you. Those are informal arrangements. When I look at the proposed subsection MH 3(5), I\u00A0don\u2019t believe that Pasifika family members would be eligible. Yet if they\u2019re proposed to receive\u2014many of them who might be receiving New Zealand superannuation\u2014an increase of $2.25 a week, where is the level of support for that particular family dynamic in terms of the arrangements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAnd, finally, just in terms of all the research, all the empirical data indicates that it can be very, very difficult\u2014very difficult\u2014for Pasifika community members to want to engage with many Government departments, agencies, and those sorts of things. I\u2019ve heard the\u00A0Minister talk about \u201CGet a family member to provide support for accessing an 0800 number.\u201D That seems to me to be potentially a further barrier for Pasifika wh\u0101nau and anau. So I\u2019m interested to hear what sort of face-to-face arrangement\u2014and, again, this may have been borne out if there was a level of engagement with the sector, but I\u00A0invite the Minister to address those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002210f042512528437aa6f4c3c0cc05e175\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210f042512528437aa6f4c3c0cc05e175\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Just in regards to the member\u2019s questions around consultation, I outlined a process. In addition to that, Inland Revenue is also consulting with early childhood education providers directly, in terms of some of the language considerations and that, depending on what is applicable. So, in addition to the services that they already provide, there will be services and documentation in different languages provided for those individuals, which covers off some of the points around consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe question around when the money would actually go into one\u2019s bank account: I\u00A0mean, technically, and assuming that an individual\u2014the father in the case that was raised from Rotorua\u2014did an application that met all the criteria, in effect they could submit that on 1\u00A0October and they would be paid, due to overnight processing, on 2\u00A0October; hypothetically, assuming that everything else was appropriate. So that would be my message, and that would be backdated to 1\u00A0July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022c27f262880f64ac595b90f894341174d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c27f262880f64ac595b90f894341174d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. My question for the Minister in the chair is: what is the percentage of eligible families expected to take up the childcare-fee refund option, based on the modelling that I assume was done to inform the Government\u2019s policy choice in this area? The Minister said, in an earlier intervention, that he had answered Jan Tinetti\u2019s question on this. I don\u2019t believe, with respect, that he did. I have to assume that modelling on uptake was done. It would be negligent, I would think, if it wasn\u2019t. And I would ask the Minister to comment on what that modelling says in terms of breaking down projected uptake on the basis of income, ethnicity, and one- and two-parent households, for example, which I think would be helpful to the debate that the committee is having.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s clear from the regulatory impact statement that the Government opted to go for the quicker option instead of the option that would have put in place a system that would have less compliance burden on families. As Deborah Russell has commented, it would have taken maybe a couple of years to put that in place. And I\u2019m interested to know what the Minister\u2019s rationale was, and what Cabinet\u2019s rationale was, for going for the shorter-term option\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c588df5592e74c51a2243c05c66cf378\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Or transitioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292cc5eef4af34e1395b48fdb530b69f7\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or transitioning or going for the shorter-term option but actually putting in place the better option over time and transitioning to what is described as option three in the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022580c2bf7d57d4a43a45926def1019454\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022580c2bf7d57d4a43a45926def1019454\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E The modelling that we undertook assumed 100 percent uptake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022866b98c487ba477a8d893e9ac9c586fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022866b98c487ba477a8d893e9ac9c586fc\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Kia ora\u2014kia ora t\u0101tou. I\u2019m just following the k\u014Drero from some of my colleagues, particularly from Deborah Russell and Lemauga, our MP for M\u0101ngere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe have early childhood on our marae, Minister. We have always gone down the track of reo, of support for our kids\u2014we used to have a k\u014Dhanga reo on our marae\u2014and so we\u2019re always balancing what was in the best interests of our kids. So these are big political decisions, particularly in South Auckland\u2014you know, you also attract some criticism when you make a decision on behalf of your wh\u0101nau to go, some would say, the P\u0101keh\u0101 way, in terms of early childhood. And we got there when we shut down our k\u014Dhanga reo. There\u2019s always been this conflict in terms of k\u014Dhanga reo and early childhood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EMinister, I\u2019m wondering in terms of that consultation process\u2014and I accept that you would have gone down that track\u2014how did you balance that? What sort of balancing act did they require? Because I can see through the Budget that there has been some support and assistance for k\u014Dhanga reo, but there\u2019s a competition\u2014our k\u014Dhanga providers have been a bit twisted through the years because they felt that they were totally ignored in the interests of early childhood. But, for us, as community providers, we have to make the best selection for our wh\u0101nau and for our communities. I\u2019m interested in that wider consultation, Minister, if you can help me there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested, again, in the process for wh\u0101nau, particularly M\u0101ori and Pasifika wh\u0101nau. As has been pointed out by colleagues, it\u2019s all so clunky and heavy and administration-heavy, and it\u2019ll probably come back on so many of the mothers to work out how to get the rebate. Has there been consideration given in terms of how they work in tandem with the providers? Have you been able to coordinate a strategy, say, with Wh\u0101nau Ora, Minister? I note that, in that particular area, at least this Government has not reduced any funding in that area, which I\u2019m very pleased to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo is there a coordinated strategy or are wh\u0101nau just being left on their own to work this all out? Because our worry is that they give up and they do not access the support that is due to them. Some of our mums are just fantastic, and I\u2019ll give them their credit. Some of our other mums are just so busy trying to get the kids their lunch and everything else that they are just unable to access the community provider and the support necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo has the Government thought about a coordinated plan, working with community providers? Because this system, in terms of accessing funding, looks very clunky and very, very tough in terms of the whole administration side. I\u2019m also worried about providers and the extra burden on them now to claim what is rightfully theirs. So just some questions for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002236e0ed01408d449b8f1688319d7ddff5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236e0ed01408d449b8f1688319d7ddff5\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. First, I don\u2019t think the Minister answered my question before around the modelling of the potential increase in the cost in the early childhood education (ECE) sector. I guess, reframing it, the regulatory impact statement actually shares my concern that this has the potentiality of increasing the cost of ECE. I would like to hear some more about a commitment from the Minister, if possible, that this is not going to drive up the cost of ECE.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut what I want to really talk about is a perspective that we haven\u2019t talked about yet, which is the interaction between the FamilyBoost tax credit and the already existing 20\u00A0hours free ECE. So one of the things that we\u2019re looking at\u2014and, again, I understand the intention of this FamilyBoost tax credit, which is to support and supplement the existing 20\u00A0hours a week of ECE. But, at the same time, I would like to ask the Minister\u2014my first question is: has there been any modelling done? I do not see, in the regulatory impact statement, anything about potentially expanding ECE to longer hours beyond 20\u00A0hours, which then would require less, as we heard, compliance from parents having to do the rebate and having to do it and then only getting a tax credit quarterly after they pay it, and there\u2019s a statement and calculators and all of those. So has it been considered to increase\u2014simply increase\u2014the extension of 20 hours of ECE to beyond the 20 hours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other thing is\u2014and I\u2019m looking at paragraph 10 of the regulatory impact statement on the future outlook on ECE affordability. It says, \u201CThe recent repeal of the planned extension of 20 hours ECE to 2-year-olds also reduces future support to some families to meet ECE costs.\u201D So the second question I have here is whether the 20 hours of ECE applies to those who are aged three, four, and five, and whether the FamilyBoost here will add on top of that what they already get for 20 hours. However, what additional support will there be for families with children who are two and under other than the FamilyBoost they get, and also additional family subsidies because of the fact that they don\u2019t have the 20 hours of ECE? So those are my two main questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAnd then my next question, again, because when we\u2019re talking about the amount and abatement and of the $975\u2014I\u2019m looking at new section MH 3 subsection (2) and (3)\u2014is:\u00A0how does that $975 come about? Because, again, we have heard the impact that this has particularly to lower-income earners. And when we\u2019re looking at something like the statistics and the census, we know, as mentioned, that M\u0101ori and Pasifika and, for me, my constituents of the Chinese communities, on average, earn less in Aotearoa than others. So, as we see here, the cost of ECE increased faster in the report\u2014and this is from Stats NZ as well\u2014that from June\u00A02018 to 2022, you can see that the bottom 20 percent of salary earners face increased costs much more than all households, against the average.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo the question here would be whether there has been consideration\u2014and this is particularly subsection (3)(b) of new section MH 3\u2014that is being placed on the inequity that we see in our communities. We have talked about the fact that the language barrier is a real concern\u2014and, for me, I can think of Chinese families\u2014and I\u2019m sure that other Chinese MPs will also echo the same sentiment that certain Chinese families who may\u00A0 not be proficient in English will find it a struggle when navigating this system. On top of\u00A0that, they have the additional barrier of already earning less than average of the income and having to face additional complexity but also not necessarily getting the same amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo the third question I have to the Minister is: has there been any sort of modelling being done in terms of balancing out some of the inequity that we\u2019re currently seeing in our communities and particularly the ethnic communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022eef371d3c55a4badacaad482e640cbb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eef371d3c55a4badacaad482e640cbb7\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022882e187d90b141c3b82118ae5c65b240\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022882e187d90b141c3b82118ae5c65b240\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Because we aren\u2019t having a select committee process and there isn\u2019t the ability for people to come and submit on this particular piece of legislation, I asked the Minister a question before, and he said he addressed it, but he\u00A0actually has not addressed two of the questions I asked before\u2014the first one being: why were parents not consulted as part of this, and why was there not any work done on the fees that centres provide in order to make this bill more practical? Those were just the\u00A0questions that the Minister didn\u2019t answer, but I just wanted to get back in front of him\u00A0again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI wanted to follow on from a point that my colleague Tangi Utikere made around retrospectivity of this legislation. I want to know, if I\u2019m a parent and I miss out on making my quarterly submission to IRD, whether I can save it up and do it the next time and whether I can, in fact, save my whole year\u2019s worth and do it in one lump sum so I get myself quite a little pocket full of cash at the end of the day. So I really appreciate if the Minister could actually answer the questions I\u2019ve asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00223a851843976d4f0898b60c10299a1241\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a851843976d4f0898b60c10299a1241\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do want to dig into some of the really technical aspects of this bill now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo the first clause I want to look at is clause 9 of the bill, and what it does is it inserts new section GB 44B, and it\u2019s an anti-fraud provision\u2014that\u2019s what that section of the Act is all about. So what it says is, basically, if someone enters into an arrangement and the purpose of that arrangement is to defeat the purpose of new Subpart MH\u2014whatever the new Subpart MH, which is the \u201CFamilyBoost tax credits\u201D\u2014then the tax credit is \u201Creduced to the amount the Commissioner considers would have arisen had the arrangement not occurred.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo, basically, someone could, if they want to try to get around the system, maybe submit some invoices that weren\u2019t actually correct, or they could make some claims that weren\u2019t correct and they could get some money, but then the commissioner could go and overturn them and get that money back. So it\u2019s pretty standard, saying, \u201CAll right, mate, you\u2019ve tried this one on, but we\u2019re going to take that back.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat I want to understand from the Minister\u2014I mean, that just reverses the payment back out and ensures that no one gets any childcare rebate that they\u2019re not entitled to. But will there also be a penalty attached to anyone who tries to pull a swiftie? Because I guess we\u2019ve got a really well-known phenomenon of people who try to pull a swiftie over at the Ministry of Social Development on benefits and the like getting pretty soundly punished for that in many ways. There\u2019s some really interesting work done by Professor Lisa Marriott showing that we are far more punitive towards benefit fraud than we are towards tax fraud. So this is an interesting one\u2014whether it\u2019s a benefit or a tax part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut I would like to understand from the Minister, as the first of my technical questions, is whether there is any penalty associated with entering into an arrangement. Now, I\u2019m not talking about where someone\u2019s just made a mistake. You can totally get that a busy and flustered parent might accidentally load up the wrong invoice or might repeat an invoice from one quarter because they just lost track of something, because people do get busy and get flustered and things do go wrong. So that, obviously, probably couldn\u2019t meet the level for it to be deemed an arrangement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258262f63e8054710957e109642c3bcb2\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: A mum and dad with little babies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e5701b44f10425cbaedc47b4d48024f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s right. But there\u2019s a circumstance where someone does deliberately set out to defeat the system and the money\u2019s been gotten back, but is there going to be a penalty associated with it as well? I\u2019d like to know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1979c8643864495a871e8a7959d1972\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1979c8643864495a871e8a7959d1972\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and fa\u2018afetai, because it is Samoan Language Week and it would be very easy for us to lose sight of that this week. But I would like to make a special shout-out to our large and proud Samoan community in Christchurch East\u2014the electorate I am lucky enough to be the MP for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also pleased to be able to take a call on this, because there are still so many questions, I think, not just from our team here on this side but also from our community, about the approach that\u2019s being taken here. Specifically, my questions are around a very local perspective and around a community perspective for early childhood education (ECE). The example that we have in Christchurch East is the Avonside Early Childhood Centre. Now, this is, proudly, on Woodham Road. It\u2019s been there for 80 years. It\u2019s one of the oldest early childhood education centres in New Zealand. It was originally called the Avonside Girls\u2019 High Nursery School, so things have moved on. No longer do the ECE teachers there wear nurse uniforms, and no longer are they seen as babysitters. This is a vital, not-for-profit community service that allows parents to get back into the workforce, back into study, and to have a fantastic start for their children in an early childhood education environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe really important thing about the Avonside Early Childhood Centre is that it\u2019s about childcare; it\u2019s not about profit. It\u2019s a not-for-profit. It has a board of trustees. It has a focus on accessibility for the local community, and that local community needs support for things like early childhood education. The issue with the approach that\u2019s being taken here is that there\u2019s a really strong administrative load put both on to the parents\u2014and we\u2019ve heard a lot of questions around that, because that\u2019s not really the best approach for busy parents who are juggling a lot\u2014but there\u2019s also a really big administrative load that is put on to centres like the Avonside Early Childhood Centre. And, at a time when the Government is telling us through the Budget that they want to cut backroom services, what\u2019s actually being created here is a whole new backroom role both for families but also for early childhood education centres. So we\u2019re creating a backroom boost away from Government but into family homes and into early childhood education centres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641d58bda81e4dca86311efaf7b1e9ca\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: A back-pocket boost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291564eebc2a84055be97b6bc619745b8\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve heard a member shout out \u201Cback-pocket boost\u201D. It\u2019s a very small back pocket. I\u2019d love you to talk further about it, because it\u2019s a very, very small back pocket. My question for the Minister around this approach is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d03861ef080e488694375f08e5e79ac5\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Are you trying to slow down money into the back pockets of New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b84c0b6a0c0478d9a1ee9292a48a89c\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: My question for the Minister, when his colleagues will allow it to be heard, is: what was the engagement and what has the Minister\u2019s engagement been with early childhood education centres and particularly with community-focused and not-for-profit early childhood education centres? And not only what has the Minister\u2019s engagement been but also what was their feedback, what was the response, what was the feedback that you got from that sector, and, as a result of that feedback and as a result of\u00A0a consultative approach, what support is being promised and provided for that sector to navigate what is going to be a heavy administrative load\u2014new roles needing to be created within childhood centres where the focus really should be on providing the best start for children and for families whose parents are balancing the very busy time of returning to study or returning to work and accessing childhood care? So I look forward to the Minister\u2019s answer to those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002242abeb4a3960410da2e0f06bb0f07628\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242abeb4a3960410da2e0f06bb0f07628\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to make a call, and I am looking forward to, hopefully, the Minister in the chair, Simon Watts, answering my previous questions. I just wanted to follow on from a point that the Hon Dr Deborah Russell brought up. If I think back to my time in early childhood education (ECE), when we enrolled children, we had to verify that they actually existed. We had to upload information into the Early Learning Information System; we had to have evidence of birth certificates and what have you. I\u2019m interested to know whether there is going to be security or what is actually going to be in place to stop someone\u2014say I find out what these receipts are going to look like that centres provide and I\u2019m going to pretend I have a child in ECE and I\u2019m going to start claiming this rebate, I want to know what security is going to be in place. Are ECE centres and IRD\u2019s IT systems going to be talking to each other to verify that there is an actual child here, or are parents going to have to also be expected to provide verification that there is an actual child here as well? I\u2019m talking a bit about the whole fraud side of things, because we do know there will be people that, if they can, might like to take that opportunity. So I\u2019m actually really interested to know what security measures will be in place to protect against that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00221ecc8bfb197c4b718f777b7c2edd130f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ecc8bfb197c4b718f777b7c2edd130f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can I thank the Minister for providing me the information as to the fiscal costings of FamilyBoost. For the benefit of listeners, I couldn\u2019t find it, because it\u2019s not in the bill, it\u2019s not in the explanatory note to the bill, and it\u2019s not on the regulatory impact statement to the bill, and when I went through the summary of initiatives, I checked education and social development, but I wrongly checked Inland Revenue under \u201CI\u201D rather than revenue under \u201CR\u201D. You might call that a rookie error, but I was somewhat pleased to see that it took the Minister a minute or two to find it. In any event, it now discloses that the cost in 2024-25 is $174\u00A0million, and it goes down by about $3 or $4 million a year\u2014$171 million, $167\u00A0million, and $165 million\u2014in the subsequent years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere are two questions that I have arising from that. The first is that the National Party campaigned at the time of the election that the abatement threshold for this increased subsidy for childcare costs would rise from $42,000 of family income to $50,000. Presumably, given that the National Party would\u2019ve liked to have kept their electoral promise, they did cost what\u00A0would have been the fiscal impact of lifting the abatement threshold from $42,000 to $50,000. It\u2019s relevant both to the cost of the policy relative to what was promised at the election, but it\u2019s also relevant to the Amendment Paper that is in the name of Arena Williams, which seeks to lift that threshold to $50,000 as per the National Party promise at the election. So I presume that that would have been costed at the time of the election. I\u2019m interested because it seems likely that the National Party\u2019s either going to rule out this amendment on fiscal grounds or vote against it, either of which does bring into relevance the cost of changing that abatement threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second point I would make\u2014I have already referenced the decreasing amount of the cost of this over time. I am presuming that as a consequence, either fewer people get the benefit of FamilyBoost over the time or the amount that people get under each of those entitlements decreases over time, or a combination of both, as a consequence of inflation and inflation-related wage increases. I would like the Minister to confirm that that is in fact the case and, if that is the case, whether any consideration was given\u2014given that we quite often hear from the National Party about the desirability of adjusting thresholds for inflation, whether any work was done on adjusting the FamilyBoost payments to make sure that, over time, it didn\u2019t decrease by $3 million per annum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcba61e644cc409ba608003612577092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcba61e644cc409ba608003612577092\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002275a80f98d5744b1881cb8472f6cf1539\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275a80f98d5744b1881cb8472f6cf1539\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve still got a whole set of technical questions which we just haven\u2019t gone into yet. What I want to understand is how the abatement works for this policy. It\u2019s like a lot of policies. It is income tested, and, as far as I can tell, a person or family can get this childcare tax rebate. But what I want to understand is how abatement works. I want to direct the Minister\u2019s attention to new part\u2014so this is in clause 14 of the bill, and it will insert new section MH\u00A03, \u201CFamilyBoost tax credit\u201D, where it\u2019s looking at the entitlement to the family tax credit. Then it talks about \u201CAmount of credit\u201D, so up to 25 percent\u2014well, it\u2019s \u201C25% of the licensed early childhood service fees payable by the person for the quarter up to a maximum credit of $975.\u201D All right, so that\u2019s the maximum amount a person can claim. And a \u201Cperson\u201D means, basically, family if you look further on. That\u2019s how it works. But it could be a single person, it could be a family unit, or something like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut then, in new section MH 3(3), it starts to talk about the abatement amounts. It says that \u201CIf the person\u2019s tax credit income for the quarter is greater than $35,000,\u201D. So the way I read that is that once someone\u2019s tax credit income\u2014now, you have to sort of work at what that tax credit income is, and it says, as far as I can tell: \u201Ctax credit income\u201D, if you go back to the definitions in new section MH 2, \u201Cmeans the amount determined under section MH 4\u201D. So you go to new section MH 4, and the amount of the tax credit income is determined by \u201Creportable income\u201D. So there\u2019s a number of questions here. First of all, it would be helpful to know from the Minister what \u201Creportable income\u201D is, because that determines the tax credit income. There\u2019s quite a lot of tricky definitions in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo just if we could get that little bit of clarification around what \u201Creportable income\u201D actually is, and then that tells us what the tax credit income is. So it tells us how much income a family can earn before the tax credit itself starts to abate. So that\u2019s the first point of clarification. I guess \u201Creportable income\u201D\u2014it does say that it\u2019s defined in the Act. Of course, we don\u2019t have the Act here with us in the Chamber, but I\u2019m sure that the Minister or his officials can let us know what that \u201Creportable income\u201D is. I\u2019m sure it\u2019s somewhere in Part Y of the Act, but it would be good to have that there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the first question. Then the second question, related to this abatement, is that \u201Ctax credit income for the quarter is greater than $35,000\u201D, so it\u2019s for the quarter, so if we go to what the annual amount is, then, it\u2019ll be $140,000. So if there is\u2014you know, the way I\u2019m reading it, if a family has income of up to $140,000, then provided they\u2019ve spent\u2014I can\u2019t remember what it is per quarter\u2014the full amount of childcare fees per quarter, they can get the full amount out. The greatest benefit for this tax rebate will be to those families who can afford to pay the childcare fees up front. And the benefit goes to families where the income is up to $140,000. Now, that doesn\u2019t matter whether there are two income earners in the family or one income earner or so on. That\u2019s where the benefit goes. But I would just like the Minister to talk us through how that abatement is going to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAnd, more to the point\u2014I haven\u2019t had time to do the maths myself\u2014at what point, what level of family income, does the tax credit fully abate away? So what\u2019s the maximum income a family can earn and still receive even just a few dollars of this FamilyBoost\u2014what are we calling it?\u2014tax credit, the childcare tax rebate? So I\u2019d be\u00A0really interested to know at what point it fully abates away. Obviously, that\u2019s going to be\u00A0quite a high-income family. So I get the point of abating it away, but just what\u2019s the\u00A0maximum income a family can earn before this new FamilyBoost tax credit fully\u00A0abates away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00223b74e2944685432e8162e53ad646f510\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b74e2944685432e8162e53ad646f510\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Just working through some of those questions, the answer is $180,000 for the last aspect, which was the maximum income threshold. Reportable income includes salary, wages, interest, dividends, scheduled payments, and employee share incomes\u2014and that is a defined term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe abatement question, in regards to the National Party policy: it is something that wasn\u2019t proceeded on, raising it from $42,000 to $50,000, but it relates to the Working for Families tax credit, not the FamilyBoost conversation that we are having at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to why the numbers decrease, on page\u00A079, the summary of initiatives, in terms of the cost, it is because there is an understanding that household incomes are expected to increase in time, and those aspects will always be subject to review by Government in regards to its broader tax policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00225c507ee0dda54e84943fbafdaabf60cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c507ee0dda54e84943fbafdaabf60cf\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have more of a question of clarification. This is with regard to a section that we haven\u2019t discussed yet, and this is clause 14 inserting new Subpart MH, new section MH 4(5) and (6). So, for new subsection (5), it talks about the question of \u201CIf the person has a spouse, civil union partner, or de facto partner\u201D. This is something that is going to be really crucial when we\u2019re looking at something that is retrospective in nature of people getting a tax credit quarterly. So, in this case, it says that the personal tax income takes into consideration the person\u2019s tax credit income and the tax credit income of their partner, for the quarter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut I have a question of what happens if the couple separates. So, luckily, this was mentioned in subsection (6), which says, \u201CSubsection (5)\u201D\u2014which is the previous subsection\u2014\u201Cdoes not apply for a quarter if the person is separated from their partner and does not have a new partner at the end of that quarter.\u201D So my question here is: when subsection (6) is triggered, does it encompass the entire duration of the quarter, as indicated in subsection (5), or does subsection (6) only consider pro rata the period of time where the main person with the tax credit income no longer has a partner? I think this is a really important point of clarification for, in this case\u2014in more cases or not, as we see in the regulatory impact statement\u2014it affects women and, particularly, solo mothers with young children. So I think that clarification of whether subsection (6) encompasses the entire quarter or if it\u2019s going to be pro rata when the partner is separated is going to be a really important clarification for the people of Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind just clarifying whether subsection (6) applies to the entire quarter or just for the period that the person no longer has a partner. That would be really good if he could answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00220f358ef54f1d41dc93a379cc99cbb16b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f358ef54f1d41dc93a379cc99cbb16b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have eight questions for the Minister of Revenue, straight questions that we haven\u2019t dealt with yet. I\u2019ve had one call in this debate to speak to my amendment to Part 2. I\u2019ll give the Minister a heads-up about what it is. It\u2019s to clause 3. It would include a new clause 3A that amends section MD 13 of the Income Tax Act. That clause, just for the Minister\u2019s information, is about the family tax credit abatement rate. In my colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell\u2019s contribution, she was talking about the abatement for the FamilyBoost package. This contribution, Minister, is about the family tax credit abatement rate, which my amendment seeks to change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAll right, to the eight questions that I have, which haven\u2019t been answered yet, the first is about the fiscal cost of the lack of a change to the abatement rate from $42,000\u00A0to $50,000. This was something that was costed into the National Party\u2019s provisional Budget. It was in their operating allowance at the time prior to the introduction of this bill. So the House has had only two days to consider the fiscal impact of not doing the\u00A0abatement rate. I\u2019d like the Minister to give me the fiscal cost of that change and the\u00A0savings that have resulted from that, so that we can understand the impact on low-income families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second question I have is: how many households would have benefited from the family tax credit had the change to the abatement rate been made? A change from $42,000\u00A0to $50,000 represents perhaps 10,000 homes who are now missing out on the family tax credit because that decision has not been taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe third question I have is: which households? Can the Minister give the committee an understanding of what kind of households are missing out on the change that would have seen them eligible for the family tax credit who, because of the decisions not to include a change to the abatement rate in Part 2 of the bill, will not be receiving that? Which households are they? What kind of income profiles do they have? And are they exactly the low-income families that the Minister has talked about Part 1 most affecting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe fourth question is: how is it being offset for them? The Minister has talked about low-income families being the primary beneficiaries of those changes to the three categories of the lowest-wage earners in his changes to Part 2\u2014I believe it was the clause 7 changes to Schedule 1 of the Income Tax Act. I want to understand how the Minister has gone about offsetting the loss of tax benefits by not increasing the family tax credit abatement rate that will now apply to these low-income households\u2014if, indeed, it is low-income households, because the Minister hasn\u2019t answered my previous questions in the call about how this will affect the tax spread and the tax efficiency outcomes that he surely wants to see from his decisions in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe next question I have is that he did speak about, in his answer to my earlier questions, there being a number of trade-offs being made here, and that the abatement not being made\u2014which would have been the bigger change to his tax package\u2014was about trade-offs and fiscal considerations that were taken by the coalition Government. What I want to understand is: given that it was in the National Party\u2019s operating allowance that they campaigned on, that doesn\u2019t really answer the question, because, if it was in the operating allowance, what has changed in the operating allowance now not to include it? We\u2019re not talking about taking on further debt; we\u2019re talking about policy decisions which affect exactly the same people which the Minister is trying to get to in his changes in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo the fifth question I have for the Minister\u2014number five\u2014is: is interest deductibility the trade-off that he is talking about? Is it because that change cost hundreds of millions of dollars more than it did in the operating allowance that the National Party was discussing at the election time? Is that the trade-off that he was talking about in his previous answer to my question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EQuestion number six: is it the gambling tax? Is it that the gambling tax does not raise what was expected, and is that trade-off that he is talking about in his answer to my question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe next question is: is it overseas buyers? Are overseas buyers and the failure to be able to deliver on that campaign promise the reason why the operating allowance is different and why this abatement hasn\u2019t been able to go ahead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe eighth question I\u2019d like the Minister to give us an answer to in this committee is:\u00A0because of those three measures\u2014questions five, six, and seven\u2014is that why low-income\u00A0families, who the Minister is helping in Part 1 of the bill, will not be receiving that benefit in Part 2 of the bill that they would have received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227edb73b37e7447d9a5434c220775a854\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227edb73b37e7447d9a5434c220775a854\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to indicate that I\u2019m going to go back to Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2014I noticed when you were asking your questions, the Minister in the chair at the time was on a cellphone for the whole time. So while the Minister\u2019s fully entitled to be out of the Chamber, I would expect the Minister in the chair to show a little more attention to the Chair while he\u2019s in that position. So, Lawrence Xu-Nan, we\u2019ll go back to you for your speech. And, Arena Williams, if you would like some of those earlier questions, you\u2019re welcome to them as well. Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00222377057b951d4c5b97c235d16b0cf02f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222377057b951d4c5b97c235d16b0cf02f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Mr Chair. I will keep this brief because\u2014if I can find the section. This is around new section MH 4\u2014I have lost it. This is around subsections (5) and (6) of new section MH 4, in new Subpart MH, inserted by clause 14. The question I have to the Minister is: if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind providing a clarification of subsection (7) of new section MH 4, where it says that subsection (5) does not apply if the main income tax holder has a partner and has split up and they no longer have a new partner by the end of that quarter. So clarification is needed as to whether it meant that that main partner would be considered single for the entire duration of that quarter\u2014because it says \u201CSubsection (5) does not apply\u201D\u2014or if it\u2019s going to be pro rata, as in they will only be counting depending on the date of separation or the precise month. So I think that clarification will be quite helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2c47a54d6104814a1b85c8d4a7d8834\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2c47a54d6104814a1b85c8d4a7d8834\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My question about the fiscal cost of the abatement is something that I acknowledge the Minister has been asked a couple of times and he hasn\u2019t been able to answer, so what I might do is clarify why that is important while he considers with his officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo this question is because there are two changes being made to the family tax credit regime that were being considered only two days ago, before the introduction of this bill. One was increasing the rate to $25 a week. That has been done in this bill\u2014that is a good change. That is a change we can all support because it means that low-income families are getting $25 extra a week in the hand through the family tax credit and that is both an efficient way to distribute that money and it is a targeted way that goes to the people who need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut the second change that was being considered prior to the introduction of this bill was the bigger change. It was the bigger fiscal impact that affected more people\u2014we\u2019re talking in the number of tens of thousands of people. That hasn\u2019t been done. That was the change to the abatement threshold, and it was from $42,000 to $50,000. So the reason I\u2019m asking the Minister is about the fiscal cost of that, which is not being done. Then I want him to help us understand how big that is for the families who have been affected by the decision to not make that change. I ask it because I\u2019ll bring the Minister back to Part 2 of my Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223da4423902ae463dba735ddd159d0b5f\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Are we still on Part 2? Been here for a while.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f22933494ecf430eb02ad284c85e36be\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Are we on Part 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f2bb5f662f045c5931aded271b0402b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s on the Table for the members who are a bit confused about where we are\u2014I hear their interjections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c78089d7ae441a1b8f2572c060f88d9\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, what clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd2a15c3ba9472fa76900a95a9de44b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s Part 2, clause 3A on my Amendment Paper. It inserts a new clause 3A which reads, \u201CND 13 Calculation of family credit abatement.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022368e07647e9e4b37963416df4abb33e7\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Not Part 2; Part 2 is clause 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dabbb198f1cc4b449b870df396779dc7\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is a bit confused because he might be looking at the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper. My paper seeks to amend the Minister\u2019s amendment and so where we are is we\u2019re amending, in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper, the Income Tax Act 2007. This Amendment Paper would seek to insert a change to that principal Act, the Income Tax Act 2007. The reason it is here is this part is the only part in which I could amend it for the Minister because he promised to do it before we got here with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e238905b5cf2478cbbe6f33396972d8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e238905b5cf2478cbbe6f33396972d8f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before\u2014for the Hansard\u2014I was not referring to this Minister in the chair being on his cell phone. I want to clarify that you\u2019ve been very attentive, Minister Watts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002238616f77c6cb42ae9b44e788dea6b99c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238616f77c6cb42ae9b44e788dea6b99c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The member Arena Williams doesn\u2019t have an Amendment Paper on the Table, so I\u2019m not sure what her contribution was referring to. But in regards to the question in regards to a circumstance where there may be a separation during the quarter, there is no appropriate pro rata or apportionment process. The decision around eligibility is a point-in-time decision at the end\u00A0of the quarter, and so, quite simply, that\u2019s how that process would work in regards to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u002230f171bdeed743e58b22472b18359282\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230f171bdeed743e58b22472b18359282\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b09f6f70f13d4c88a7dcf3c6b43c9ef1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b09f6f70f13d4c88a7dcf3c6b43c9ef1\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m yet to receive a response from the Minister to a question that I put to him. It\u2019s largely framed around the support and how Pacific communities as a family unit can function. So I would be very interested for the Minister to at least address the question if he\u2019s not able to provide a fulsome response. Just to remind him, the data indicates that just under a quarter\u2014around 24 percent, Minister\u2014of children are looked after or cared for in informal arrangements that involve grandparents or potentially extended wh\u0101nau or anau. Now, in a Pacific context, that could, again, mean an aunt, an uncle, an older sibling, or perhaps someone much older, and so I am interested in hearing an answer from the Minister, given that we are an urgency, given that we have not had an opportunity to put this in front of the very people who would be impacted by this potential change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI referenced the change in new section MH 3(5), inserted by clause 14, because my read of that section indicates that those that might fall within that Pasifika context and the definition of that would not necessarily be eligible, even though they would be seen or perceived as the primary person that is responsible for the children, even though many of them will be 65 or over and what they would be getting in terms of proposed additional support is $2.25 a week. I\u2019m interested to have a response from the Minister around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in the Minister commenting on, or at least addressing, what has been raised by my colleague Dr Russell, and that\u2019s around the fraud aspect. So I think this is really important because it is a new process, it is a new opportunity, and I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister, please: where is the integrity within the process, particularly in the context of a Budget that potentially provides less for prosecution and more for enforcement? So where there might be family units and others that may find it difficult to engage with the administration requirements and the criteria of getting this in on a quarterly basis\u2014or, indeed, whether it\u2019s the early childhood education (ECE) provider that may be held up and not able to, so it\u2019s not actually the fault of the parent or the\u00A0family unit to get the information, but the additional responsibilities on the ECE\u00A0provider\u2014where is the integrity in the process in terms of addressing the potential for fraud so early on in this process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002279aa93cd460e42aa8f8f39af0442d52a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279aa93cd460e42aa8f8f39af0442d52a\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to give the Minister an opportunity to answer at least one of the eight questions I have put to him about what is an incredibly important part of this part. This is the only part where we can discuss a promise that the National Party campaigned on and costed in, an operating allowance that we could have relied upon until just two days ago, an operating allowance which included a change to the family tax credit abatement threshold. That would have been the bigger change; it\u2019s not in here. We don\u2019t know the fiscal cost of it. We haven\u2019t been told how many people that affects. And so the Opposition is struggling to be able to decode why the Minister wouldn\u2019t accept my amendment to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe amendment to Part 2\u2014the only answer that the Minister gave me then was that he couldn\u2019t tell where my Amendment Paper was. I hope the Clerk can help him find the amendment that was tabled. One was tabled at 7.20 p.m. last night, and I believe the other one was tabled at about 1.20 p.m. yesterday. So the Minister and his officials have had time to consider this. You know why they\u2019ve also had time to consider this? Because it was fully costed in the National Party\u2019s fiscal plan. It is in their operating allowance, and it wasn\u2019t there until two days ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhy can\u2019t the Minister tell me what the fiscal cost of the amendment on the Table is today when he thought there was value in introducing it, because he campaigned on it? Why can the Minister in the chair not answer one of the eight questions I have put to him about this amendment? Why isn\u2019t the Minister considering it? Is it the case that he has told the backbenchers on that side that he will be voting for my amendment? Because this amendment is in line with his values\u2014it\u2019s not what I would do, but it is what he would do. It is what he told the electorate he would do. So let me help you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u0022198b6bb694bc46dba92138c3e73e73de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022198b6bb694bc46dba92138c3e73e73de\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Just a very quick question, a very quick contribution. I\u2019m curious to hear the Minister\u2019s explanation about why a four-year period was picked instead of any other time frame. That seems to be quite a short time frame. This is new section 41C, subsections (9) and (10). They refer to the four-year period in both (9) and (10), and so I\u2019m just curious what the rationale was for picking a four-year period. I want to also know if other kinds of year periods were explored and what the kind of shake-up of that was. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u002211d74e1c217b4ec88bc97626a20662bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211d74e1c217b4ec88bc97626a20662bc\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022572c7c598381439984e4adc11e23aed4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022572c7c598381439984e4adc11e23aed4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to come back to a point I raised earlier around the abatement rates, and particularly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229461bac507e449349d030a464a486f27\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, has it already been covered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a68bb3b4917405995af35fb321d1825\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014how quickly\u2014take a call; take a call\u2014the tax credit abates. Now, I hadn\u2019t done the math, so I hadn\u2019t worked out exactly how much a family could earn before the tax credit ran out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f80bfdd2e5984e5f89eec7a748bc1e16\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: So you want people to get tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf2d41ee8a584e2286666d01118aef63\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2014take a call, Mr Bates; take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290f548c67c794d9db221c5af1491cf8d\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want people to get tax cuts? Are you encouraging us to give more\u00A0tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022993073f4f5ef45109f40ce95eab0b1d7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bates, stand up and take a call instead of shouting across the Chamber. I am going to carry on with my allocated time, but I notice that the members are very engaged. If they would take a call, that would be fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EGetting back to these abatement rates. Fortunately, either the Minister of Revenue himself\u2014because I know he is quick of mind\u2014or perhaps his officials were able to tell us that the tax credit fully abated away at $180,000. So that means that the maximum amount that can be received\u2014a person earning $140,000 can claim the maximum amount, but then, after that, it abates away at whatever the rate is, until, at $180,000, the person or the family can\u2019t get any more of the tax credit. So that\u2019s quite a steep abatement rate across $40,000 of income. It might be $40,000 of family income, or it might be that $40,000 split between the two incomes\u2014whatever it works out to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut my question is to do with whether any modelling was done by the Minister\u2019s officials\u2014and I\u2019m assuming he would have asked them to do this, because it\u2019s quite important\u2014around EMTRs, effective marginal tax rates. Now, here\u2019s the thing. If someone is earning, say, $150,000\u2014so their marginal tax rate at that level is 33 percent\u2014but if they have a student loan as well, then there\u2019ll be another 12c going on to their effective marginal tax rate. So their effective marginal tax rate would be up to 45 percent. Then, I think, at that stage, they run out of family tax credits and things like that. So that\u2019s not going to affect the EMTRs. But if the Minister could clarify that for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut what I\u2019d like to know\u2014and it\u2019s a pretty simple example to work out mathematically, and I\u2019m sure the officials can do it for them fairly quickly. Let\u2019s assume we\u2019ve got someone who\u2019s got an income of $150,000\u2014just one income in the household; let\u2019s assume a spouse who is fully occupied in other activities or may be a sole parent or whatever. So their marginal tax rate is 33 percent under the new tax scale as well, and maybe they have a student loan of 12 percent, so our effective marginal tax rate is up to 45 percent. What is that effective marginal tax rate increased to, thanks to the abatement of this childcare tax rebate? So that\u2019s the first question\u2014just exactly what that EMTR is. And I\u2019d like to know if there\u2019s any modelling done around that. I\u2019m assuming there was; or, if not, I actually know that those officials will be able to come up with that number fairly quickly for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut here\u2019s the other thing: I just want to know what analysis was done on the effect of that increased EMTR, on whether or not a person is liable to go and look for more work or look for other income. Every time we have a look at EMTRs, we know that it impacts a whole series of other decisions that people make. So I wonder if the Minister could just add that little bit of detail around those abatement rates. It might be in the regulatory impact statement\u2014I\u2019m sorry, given the speed with which we\u2019ve had to deal with all that, I haven\u2019t seen it. But I would like to understand the effect of the abatement on the effect of marginal tax rates. I think it\u2019s a fairly important one to understand, as we understand the impact of this policy on ordinary New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022d77e0db2f5474f6c804a5f6f14e9fed3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d77e0db2f5474f6c804a5f6f14e9fed3\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m delighted to be able to take my first call on the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill, and I do appreciate, Mr Chair, your providing me with that opportunity to take this call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI wanted to begin just by reminding the committee that as we are in urgency, we do expect to have answers to those questions that colleagues have put forward, and I want to touch quickly on a couple of the questions and contributions from my colleagues, because, obviously, we don\u2019t have the opportunity as members to engage through that select committee process. So I do just want to begin my call by really asking the Minister to engage and to respond to those questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe first was around the contribution from my colleague Dr Deborah Russell\u2014which Tangi Utikere touched on\u2014about the analysis around fraud, and I just don\u2019t believe we\u2019ve had a response yet from the Minister. So I\u2019m looking forward to the Minister, hopefully, taking a call\u2014are you going to take a call? Great! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226426a9f311b3449e89d124ea0c12e4d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226426a9f311b3449e89d124ea0c12e4d9\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I\u2019ll take a call in response to those questions. So in regards to the abatement rate and the effective marginal tax rates, the modelling will depend on the ability to get the respective data from the relevant players, including the early childhood education sector. That\u2019s not information that the IRD currently holds, so that modelling\u2014for the member\u2019s question\u2014has not been undertaken, but as and when that data starts to flow through, we\u2019ll be able to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere was a question before around the four-year period, in terms of why it\u2019s four years. Four years is a standard period in regards to the way in which\u2014time-barred for Inland Revenue\u2019s products. So that\u2019s the basis for those two. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022537aca84236345838edc7ae42c75c6f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022537aca84236345838edc7ae42c75c6f2\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002255ce757e80df4d23abe08cb43664119c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd3c4359f11445d3aa55d393387d3c96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd3c4359f11445d3aa55d393387d3c96\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to replace section MD 13(3)(i) and (ii) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e90af3740f8a4955be852be029a230ad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222b5fb7452d2a404f9cf3adef8abeea1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b5fb7452d2a404f9cf3adef8abeea1b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to replace section MD 13(3) and delete clauses 12, 14 to 16, and 18 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c62fa781320b4003bc0bf37d66a14954\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225d10d8c853de49fe8509c69408f78dd1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022652894db75cf43d6b2bcf342c97dfdae\u0022\u003EPart 3  Income Tax Act 2007 and Tax Administration Act 1994 amendments commencing 31July2024 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000282\u0022\u003E\u00A0\u00A0\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbd7492322584949bc123280cd372943\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbd7492322584949bc123280cd372943\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the debate on Part 3, which is the debate on clauses 25 to 32, \u201CIncome Tax Act 2007 and Tax Administration Act 1994 amendments commencing 31\u00A0July\u00A02024\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022608d0e7ef6c946af85fdb8dcadb108a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022608d0e7ef6c946af85fdb8dcadb108a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on this. Part 3 looks incredibly dull, and I\u2019m sure the Minister would agree that it looks pretty dull too. It really is a series of clauses which replace one number with another. For example, clause 26 amends section LC 13 of the Income Tax Act, and it just says, \u201CIn section LC 13(5), replace \u201C$44,000\u201D with \u201C$66,000\u201D. In fact, all the ongoing clauses pretty much look like that. So it\u2019s a whole series of replacing one number with another number. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut, however dull it looks, it\u2019s actually kind of important, because what it\u2019s doing\u2014and I had hoped the Minister would explain this himself, but perhaps not\u2014is it\u2019s setting the new amounts for independent earner tax credit, the in-work tax credit, and the minimum family tax credit. And then, following on from that, clause 29 amends an amount in Schedule 1. Part 3 then goes on to a whole lot of stuff that\u2019s in the Income Tax\u00A0Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThen there\u2019s a whole lot of stuff amending various sections in the Tax Administration Act as well. But hiding in between these seemingly dull-looking changes, which do just substitute one for another, are some pretty important policy decisions that the Government has made. This will be one of our few opportunities to debate those policy decisions as to why they chose particular amounts. So I\u2019m just going to go to, first of all,\u00A0the independent earner tax credit, and in section LC 13(5) we\u2019re replacing $44,000 with $66,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that is a pretty technical change, but I think that for the benefit of the committee and for the benefit of people watching and for the benefit of people who actually want to\u00A0understand what is going on with our Income Tax Act, it would be helpful if the Minister could explain exactly what that clause does and why that amount of $66,000 has been chosen. There will be some policy thinking behind it. I would like to have an explanation of that policy thinking. So, Minister, it would be great if you could just explain that clause to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00221df7902318b944deb81c1c8c42429bdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221df7902318b944deb81c1c8c42429bdc\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, it\u2019s a great opportunity to take a short call on the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b1e243019c40d4a84f6f2261c58959\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: A short call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022217e5b98395b494b8dea7cfba225fdc1\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: It will be a short call, but it would be wonderful to hear from some members opposite about the questions that they might have for the Minister. I mean, they wouldn\u2019t have had an opportunity, I don\u2019t think, to take this through their caucus. I will just repeat the comments that I made at the beginning of my call on Part 2, which was that the reason that we do put these questions forward for the Minister\u2014and the Minister is obviously able to seek guidance from his officials\u2014is because we don\u2019t get the opportunity to have the full scrutiny through that select committee process. So this is an important part of the House\u2019s role to scrutinise this bill. Now, one of the things that I\u2019m quite interested in is the overlap that we will see between the tax credits in terms of the threshold\u2014the minimum family tax credit\u2014and to ensure that the Minister can guarantee that every family will be better off regardless of where they fit in the margins in terms of the interaction between those different components of the tax system for families. And so the question, in particular, is: if a taxpayer would receive more from the independent earner tax credit than the in-work tax credit, because obviously we have different parts of the system that interact, the IRD would actually proactively go out and change it for them or, at least, advise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of the things we\u2019re mindful of with how the IRD operates\u2014and there were some really good changes brought in under our Government to allow the IRD to be more proactive with people when perhaps they were on the wrong tax rate or if they needed to get a special tax rate. One of the things is that regular interaction that occurs between the IRD and the other systems that are in place and whether there will be a system devised in this situation so that when the IRD identifies those families who have an interaction between different parts of the tax system that means they might actually be collecting the wrong benefits through that tax system, how do they know that? And is there advice that\u2019s then provided to those families so that they can update their tax records and interact with the IRD in order to make those changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo, as I said at the beginning of my call, we do hope that the Minister will be able to engage in, as Dr Deborah Russell has said, a bit of a dry section of the bill, but it is actually important that we hear from the Minister. He has his officials here to advise him so that he can provide that advice to the committee\u2014just reminding the Minister, and the committee as well, that the discussions that are had on the Hansard in the House can be very important for interpretative matters, perhaps in the courts or in times when clarity is sought around what was the intent of the Minister and what was the intent of the House when this particular piece of legislation was put forward? So I\u2019d be really encouraged to hear from the Minister now. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00223fc8c846d5b049a2942c6658f2496c9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fc8c846d5b049a2942c6658f2496c9b\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Part\u00A03 is very routine and standard in nature and, I think, as one of the prior members has noted, a little bit dull. I wouldn\u2019t quite go as far as that; tax legislation is never dull, but there is very little that one can say about this section. It is simply effecting the changes in terms of the changes in rates. In regards to the question around policy, around why $66,000 versus any other number, those are policy decisions that the coalition Government have landed upon, and there\u2019s not much further that I can say other than that these are the rates that we\u2019ve landed on, and this section effects those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u00220fe9f4c744084c04a536d01cb5b5e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fe9f4c744084c04a536d01cb5b5e4ba\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m taking a short call,\u00A0quoting some of the regulatory impact statement (RIS) that\u2019s been published about Part 3 and some of the changes around the tax brackets. I just want to quote a section of\u00A0it because I\u2019m curious to see the interpretation about the effective marginal tax rate (EMTR). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThe RIS, Annex 1, page\u00A018, says that \u201CThe personal income tax threshold changes and extending the income range of the Independent Earner Tax Credit reduce EMTRs for 335,000 people (positive impact on work incentives) and increase EMTRs for 85,000 people (negative impact on work incentives). Adding the proposed family based tax credit changes (the In-Work Tax Credit and FamilyBoost) increases the EMTRs for a further 45,000 people (negative impact on work incentives). These people are in coupled families with children, and are spread across the first 4 income tax bands ($0 to $180,000). Modelling did not indicate an increase in EMTRs for sole parents.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m curious about the 130,000 people who have been negatively affected by the changes in EMTRs. Does the Minister in the chair have specific analysis about who\u00A0the people who have been negatively affected are? Like, is there a specific breakdown in\u00A0terms of, perhaps, income quintiles or specific breakdowns in terms of ethnicities or even specific breakdowns in terms of geographic region or electorates, for example? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00224a5c8507aef44f27bb10c5c4db96a4dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a5c8507aef44f27bb10c5c4db96a4dd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. That is an excellent series of questions that has been raised by my colleague in the Green Party, having a look at the effective marginal tax rates because there\u2019s quite an interaction between\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6b006badbc94c7295d2a03f7e9b9a91\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s a love-in. He\u2019s well educated, that\u2019s why. Otago graduate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fbb4a7d967a47668854641ded0fe35b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m willing to yield the floor if the member would like to make a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u00227f3d36ea0b1d44f29a107427816daa1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f3d36ea0b1d44f29a107427816daa1a\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022209ce6b9cf72418fad64da0d79db8871\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022209ce6b9cf72418fad64da0d79db8871\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. Mr Chair, my understanding is that when a member yields the floor in order for another member to make a contribution, that call may not be used to call for the end of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229bc40403d95a4bcfba57c8ae74df7907\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bc40403d95a4bcfba57c8ae74df7907\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not familiar with that rule, but, Mr Bates, there was an indication that you were taking a call, so\u2014[Interruption] No, no. You\u2019re bordering on an abuse of process there. Does the member wish to take a call on the bill, or was he going to take a closure motion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u00227320e32abbcc45c097625f7b3693d366\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227320e32abbcc45c097625f7b3693d366\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, my understanding was that she was offering me the floor to make a call, and so I put the closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022263ddd178cda4eacb3b976a40a9fd724\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: All right, OK. Well, now, I think that\u2019s probably clarified something now\u2014that members on my right, if they do want a genuine call, they\u2019re obviously welcome to it but it may well be through the nature that they\u2019ll need to indicate to the Chair that they\u2019re looking for a call on the bill. Otherwise, there is the assumption, given we know the problem of too much assumption, is that it will be a closure motion. So we will resume now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6c795eb300547a79319250c43d76ac0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6c795eb300547a79319250c43d76ac0\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to seek some clarity there. So we need to differentiate on this side between whether we\u2019re rising to speak on the bill or whether we are going to be putting forward a closure motion. That\u2019s the ruling you have just made there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b241e5bb957b456796bddf257a328afc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b241e5bb957b456796bddf257a328afc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no; what I said was the assumption will be that members on my right, at this stage of the debate, rising as they have, will be taking a closure motion. However, it is only an assumption\u2014there is no ruling\u2014but I would always welcome a call on the bill, to my right. We\u2019re very early on in the debate on this part of the bill. So it may well be that a call at this stage may well be a call on the bill. So it would be useful just to indicate to the Chair\u2014myself and my fellow Chairs\u2014that you are seeking a call on the bill. That might just help the committee act more smoothly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00222522f49a90194a909184e0525e0b29a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222522f49a90194a909184e0525e0b29a4\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E OK, and just speaking to the point of order, when the Hon Deborah Russell took her seat, she cited that there was a\u00A0Standing Order or Speaker\u2019s ruling that said if a member in this House yielded the call,\u00A0they would not be able to take the closure motion. Could you please let me know what that is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225307e70476014901961077f0c7398f13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225307e70476014901961077f0c7398f13\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated, that is not a rule that immediately leaps to my mind. I\u2019m not saying it doesn\u2019t exist, and I\u2019ll put the Clerk\u2019s Office to work now, seeing if such an order does actually exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022e737eee4b72c4b3591ea3e9ba5a880ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e737eee4b72c4b3591ea3e9ba5a880ed\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order. Thank you very much, Mr Chair. As I understand it, the rules around yielding are quite restrictive. It\u2019s an unusual procedure in the House, but it is prescribed in the Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 rulings: a member has the ability to yield time within their allocated speaking time if another member seeks that that is their intention. When yielding the time, that time is to be used to seek clarification from the speaker\u2014the person speaking, that is\u2014as to a point they are making so the House can better understand what they\u2019re talking about. It is not to be used as an opportunity to make a debating point, a political point, or, in, this case here, a closure motion. So when the Hon Dr Deborah Russell offered to yield and gave up her time, it was in the hope that members on the other side would contribute to the debate, not use that opportunity to try and close the debate down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002231b5a32c42c44e2e88889692b274581f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231b5a32c42c44e2e88889692b274581f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: All right, and thank you for that contribution. As I said, I\u2019m vaguely aware there is such a thing. I don\u2019t know the detail of that yielding\u2014it certainly sounds like the member might know a little more than me\u2014but I\u2019m certainly going to take some advice on that so that I can advise the committee on the motion, because having now come to the fore, I\u2019m sure it will be something to the minds of all the members present. So we\u2019ll now resume with the Hon Deborah Russell, and I\u2019ll treat this as a continuation of that call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00224a9f8f10cd714a01bdf51c4bb2174462\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a9f8f10cd714a01bdf51c4bb2174462\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think that\u2019s appropriate, Mr Chair, and I thank you for your ruling in that matter. It is a shame\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f754302d7124d68bc5b4659d90a9376\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Stay standing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d945d3d55e4fe89d1de72e47d399f5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re welcome to take a call. Look, I want to carry on with discussing these effective marginal tax rates (EMTRs), in particular, following on from what my colleague Mr Hernandez was talking about. I want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to page\u00A010 of the regulatory impact statement (RIS). It\u2019s got something quite alarming in there. So this is the regulatory impact statement on the $25\u00A0per week increase, the in-work tax credit\u2014it\u2019s really all the adjustments to the Working for Families tax credits. So it\u2019s not just the in-work tax credit; it\u2019s also the minimum tax credit and the independent earner tax credit and so on. So they all kind of fit together. But there\u2019s a really difficult overlap between the minimum family tax credit and the in-work tax credit and all the various sorts of tax credits that are available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIn particular, I want to look at the issue around the impending overlap of the minimum family tax credit threshold and the Working for Families abatement threshold. Now, the minimum family tax credit is a really small tax credit. It only applies to a few people\u2014or a few families. But the minimum tax credit is designed to ensure that between the operations of benefits from the Ministry of Social Development and tax credits and income earning and the complicated interweaving of all those different measures we have in place, it tops up a family\u2019s income to a minimum level to ensure that a family who is in work\u2014as in \u201Cwork\u201D as defined\u2014actually ends up a little bit better off, even if only a tiny little bit better off, than a family on benefit. So that\u2019s the idea of the minimum family tax credit. But it is continuing to go up as benefits increase because of the operation of wage increases or Consumers Price Index increases, because that\u2019s how we set our benefits each year. That means that the minimum family tax credit threshold is going to have to increase over time. So that\u2019s one aspect of it. But then over time, all these Working for Families tax credits, they abate. So once you earn a certain level of income, those Working for Families tax credits start to abate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the problem\u2014and I\u2019m going to need to seek a little bit more time to explain this, Mr Chair, but sooner or later, that minimum family tax credit threshold is going to cross over the Working for Families abatement threshold. It\u2019s set out really clearly in the RIS. It says that \u201CAs the [minimum family tax credit] threshold increases annually, it is forecasted that on 1\u00A0April\u00A02027 it will overlap with the [Working for Families] abatement threshold.\u201D Mr Chair, I\u2019d just like to carry on with this call if I may, because this call is\u2014I\u2019ve just got to get through the problem. So if I can just carry on\u2014thank you, Mr Chair. This means that Working for Families customers will face effective marginal tax rates of over 100 percent, so an EMTR\u2014an effective marginal tax rate\u2014of over 100 percent. So, in layperson\u2019s terms, what that means is that if that family earns an extra dollar, then $1.10 might be taken off them in abatements. All right, so that\u2019s kind of worrying. So when the EMTRs go over 100 percent, there is then no\u2014well, why would you do the extra hour of work if more is going to be taken off you than you get paid for the work in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo what it means is\u2014as the regulatory impact statement goes on to say\u2014that \u201C[minimum family tax credit] recipients who are some of the lowest income working families would face decreases in their income as they work additional hours.\u201D So, as a result of the changes that are going through in this tax bill, we are now facing this very real problem at 1\u00A0April\u00A02027. So it just means that the policy intent, and it\u2019s set out in the regulatory impact statement, is they would owe\u2014you know, they conflict. On the one hand, we\u2019re trying to encourage low-income families into employment; on the other hand, we\u2019re going to abate away every single dollar they earn. The problem is going to come about because of the way that tax credits have been changed about in this bill. Minister, it\u2019s a real problem. I\u2019d like to hear some of your thinking on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229604711c49994ffd800baa343c57db0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229604711c49994ffd800baa343c57db0d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call the honourable Minister, but just before I do that, if you would indulge me, please, Minister, I\u2019ll just make a comment in relation to the discussion we\u2019ve just had on yielding. When a member invites a member on the opposite side to yield, or offers to yield, it is actually part of that member\u2019s call. That is why that precludes a member from taking a closure motion during the middle of a call. So if members intend to yield, it would be useful to actually use the word \u201Cyield\u201D. It would just be useful, because then we know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAs far as the members on my right go\u2014there was a question, in relation to the debate, about whether the fact he\u2019s used a closure motion precluded him from another closure motion\u2014that is not the case. It was only in the case of that particular call. So, Mr Bates, you\u2019re welcome to continue your vigorous efforts at closure motions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002260f51a602b0e4ac2a5a70175f1bd1977\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260f51a602b0e4ac2a5a70175f1bd1977\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. In regards to the member\u2019s question in regards to the issue that has been highlighted in terms of the overlap between the minimum family tax credit threshold and the general Working for Families tax credit abatement threshold, look, this is an aspect of\u2014technical in nature, obviously. It is an element which will, in terms of scenario, come into play, forecasted by IRD, on 1\u00A0April\u00A02027. That overlap consideration is an issue and it is an issue that I\u2019m aware of, obviously. I have asked officials to provide us with some advice later this year about how we look to address it. So that is an ongoing aspect and it is due to the uniqueness of some of the changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere was another question also in regards to tax codes and how IRD identifies the appropriate tax codes. IRD will use the appropriate and existing systems and processes in order to determine those tax codes. Obviously, if IRD is aware that employees may be using the wrong code, etc., which occurs occasionally, then it will be up for the employees to inform them. This is a standard practice, nothing sort of out of the ordinary in regards to this restoration to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022665a24bd5f57417c8c70b8e455c5ff1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022665a24bd5f57417c8c70b8e455c5ff1c\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to take a call. In terms of the amendments that this bill is making to the independent earner tax credit and also the in-work tax credit, I have a couple of questions for the Minister of Revenue, and it really comes down to how people are going to figure out exactly what they\u2019re entitled to and how they know that those corrections have been done accurately, and maybe the Minister might like to shine some light on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re going through the bill\u2019s commentary that\u2019s been prepared by the Inland Revenue Department, it gives some examples of how composite calculations for the 2024-25 tax year can be analysed, and it reads kind of like a sixth-form maths problem. You\u2019ve got someone called Elizabeth, and they\u2019ve got how much the abatement under the current settings is, which is 13c per $1,000. Then you\u2019ve got the calculation of the number of days that the current settings apply, which, in this example, is 121, and then you\u2019ve got the amount of the abatement under the proposed settings, which is 13c times zero dollars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhen you\u2019re trying to calculate the differences between how those settings have changed, it is not really that straightforward for members of the public to ascertain what, in fact, they\u2019re entitled to. If you\u2019re a salary earner who\u2019s getting paid, then a lot of that is already done on your behalf, but if you are, in fact, generating your own income and if you are having to also pay staff, there seems to be quite a complicated sort of formula in terms of trying to establish what the number of days are that you are entitled to, the periods that it applies to, and how that increases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn particular, what I would really like to know is what the role of the IRD is in this to assist people to understand what they are entitled to, and if a taxpayer would receive more from the independent tax earner credit\u2014which I\u2019ve just referred to\u2014than the in-work tax credit because of these changes, what the role of the IRD is to proactively change it for them. I don\u2019t think it is made clear that it is incumbent upon the taxpayer to do those calculations and to ascertain the interactions between the independent earner tax credit and\u00A0the in-work tax credit, and also I think that that sort of bleeds into the minimum family tax credit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, while people can go online and plug their details into the calculator, I actually think that there\u2019s additional information that people out there who have figured out that they get maybe $80 a fortnight\u2014how does that actually work for them, and what do they do to ensure that they get that money coming back to them? I think, to be honest, that there\u2019s a high level of suspicion sometimes when it is said that you\u2019re going to be getting this extra money, but what happens if those calculations are being done on your behalf, and what if those calculations aren\u2019t quite accurate? What is the recourse for those people who believe they are entitled to a greater share of tax relief, but who haven\u2019t managed to realise this increase in their back pockets? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI think, just from looking at how people calculate it through this document, it seems incredibly convoluted in terms of establishing the process, particularly in this transitional period of changing where the thresholds are, and the interactions that that makes for people. So I would really appreciate it, on behalf of the people who have contacted me since the Budget has been announced\u2014for those people in our own areas who are interested to know how they would access this\u2014how it works for those people who are not necessarily salary earners, but who are generating their income either from their own business or from a range of other sources. If the Minister is able to address some of those questions, I\u2019d be really happy to hear that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b91479f37c804f8da68e6b12afac8ef3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b91479f37c804f8da68e6b12afac8ef3\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to speak on this Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill. We are looking at Part 3, \u201CIncome Tax Act 2007 and Tax Administration Act 1994 amendments commencing 31\u00A0July\u00A02024\u201D. Now, looking at clause 27, \u201CSection MD 10 amended (Calculation of in-work tax credit)\u201D, I want to draw from the regulatory impact statement on the $25 per week increase to the in-work tax credit (IWTC), particularly around the impact on child poverty, and the increase of the IWTC by $25 per week. I\u2019m really interested to understand what ongoing work there will be to model what hasn\u2019t been done yet, which is the independent model on the other tax packages due to those time constraints. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EIt says that \u201Cthe tax package may slightly reduce moving-line BHC50 child poverty, since the poverty line for this measure is set at 50% of the median household income.\u201D Well, when we\u2019re talking about child poverty in Aotearoa New Zealand, as the child spokesperson for the Greens, I go back to Jonathon Boston\u2019s quote about raising tamariki in New Zealand, which was that above all, New Zealand should be a great place for raising children. Now, for some children in New Zealand, it\u2019s far from a great place. Their reality consists of living in cold, damp, overcrowded homes, moving homes frequently, experiencing hunger, suffering Third World diseases like rheumatic fever, and missing out on many things which the majority of children take for granted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EFurthermore, looking at the table on page\u00A021 of the regulatory impact statement, where it says that there will be an average weekly increase of $16.97 for 170,000 households, I want to understand what $16.97 actually achieves. Well, if we\u2019re talking about it at the flaxroots for families, that\u2019s about a block of cheese and 500 grams of butter. So how is that really going to help when we\u2019ve got more children going into poverty? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EFurthermore, on page\u00A022, what I\u2019m really keen to understand is how these tax credits can actually help lift children out of poverty, because we can actually be the best place in the world for children to grow up. New Zealand can achieve that, but when we\u2019re looking at the table on page\u00A022, the analysis is saying that the impact of this wider tax package is very low. The impact on child poverty reduction from the increase of $25 per week has not been modelled independently of other tax package changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe really want to focus on lifting children out of poverty in New Zealand, and I really want to understand when that independent review on how this tax package will actually affect children\u2014particularly children in poverty in New Zealand\u2014when this table itself says that the impact on child poverty is going to be low. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226f94075fbbb74f6ab261cd3ab4efd58c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f94075fbbb74f6ab261cd3ab4efd58c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Obviously, the implications of reducing child poverty are a significant priority for this coalition Government, and the Budget that we released yesterday, by reducing the cost of living pressures for low and medium wage households, will aid in supporting that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn respect of the specific question around what are the implications that the changes to personal income tax, the IETC, the IWTC, and FamilyBoost will have\u2014now, all of those acronyms are, basically, the different changes that have been made as part of this tax bill\u2014there is an estimation that child poverty will reduce by 17,000 children, plus or minus 6,000\u00A0by the 2027 tax year, and there is a margin of error on that, using standardised measures. That is statistically significant. If you refer to a status quo model, then the expectation is that without doing any of the changes that this Government is driving through, then child poverty, potentially, could increase by 2,000 children, plus or minus 500\u2014again, acknowledging that there are margins of error\u2014by the 2027 tax year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022f75f65eb20d64b6d9f00c8afc81081ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f75f65eb20d64b6d9f00c8afc81081ee\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to make a contribution on the in-work tax credit and to really pick up on content specifically around what the Minister was just answering in the child poverty space. On page\u00A03 of the regulatory impact statement, there is a paragraph headed \u201CThere will be reductions to child poverty\u201D. It goes on to say, \u201CThe impact on child poverty of option 2 (increase the IWTC by $25 per week from 31\u00A0July\u00A02024) has not been modelled independently to of the other Tax Package changes, due to time constraints.\u201D There appears to be a missing word here. And there\u2019s some thoughts on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EOne is: what is that referencing\u2014\u201Cto\u201D something \u201Cof\u201D. What should the missing word be? But more than that\u2014more than that\u2014the concern is that this work has been rushed, potentially done too fast, and that the matter of child poverty hasn\u2019t been given the serious weight and consideration that it deserves. It also begs the question: if such a glaring omission is made already by page\u00A03, is there the possibility that, on deeper reading of this, we will find further errors, further omissions, further concerns? I\u2019m really interested to know from the Minister what word should be in there. Any word, just about, could be inserted in there and this paragraph and this statement would start to mean completely different things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, if the target is to reduce child poverty\u2014and the Minister has just given us some numbers, albeit with a rather large margin of error around what those child poverty reductions should be\u2014surely the task of reporting and measuring child poverty becomes all the more critical, given that the Living in Aotearoa survey was developed because it was determined, probably by leadership at Stats New Zealand at the time, when the legislation was being drafted, that New Zealand did not have the appropriate data, either in our existing surveys or collected through administrative records, to measure persistent poverty or persistent hardship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI realise the Minister doesn\u2019t have responsibility for statistics, but given the context of yesterday\u2019s Budget showing significant cuts to Statistics New Zealand, and already the cut and cancellation to the Living in Aotearoa survey\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cff804314e9455b803be39844ede916\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: It was your idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebe012c45595416d8630488c0bb82baa\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sir, if you wish to take a call, we\u2019ve just discussed the procedure for that. I\u2019m happy to yield.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edbc2ce530c1496b85ae444fa6a260c0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Please do not debate across the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6f3f8c738f247beac3f463850d1a34a\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Chair. If the member on the other side of the Chamber wishes to take a call, I would be happy to yield on the provision that he is going to deliver a proper speech\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d562c7fd3c4a1fbea3377b0a626d74\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Speaker\u2019s ruling 62/4: \u201Cit is not for the member with the call to invite another member to intervene\u201D\u2014so I\u2019d ask you to reflect on that Speaker\u2019s ruling, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022758d36b4902344f8af34130230bbea76\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019ll reflect on it deeply! But I will get back to what I was discussing, and I\u2019m concerned that I may run out of time in my allotment to actually raise this issue. And it is a serious issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ETo refresh on what I was saying, for us to know if people are persistently in income poverty or material hardship, we need to collect longitudinal data\u2014that is, we need to go back to individual households, families, children multiple times, across time, to ask their income, the age and relationship profile of the people that are living in a household, and their material hardship. Now, a set of 17 questions collected on surveys can never be obtained through administrative data. At a minimum, we need longitudinal surveys that follow families for five to six years. And that\u2019s exactly what we saw confirmed as cancelled in yesterday\u2019s Budget. That\u2019s a real shame, and it makes a mockery, in my opinion, of claiming that there is any meaningful intention on this part of the Budget or on the actions in the in-work tax credit to reduce child poverty. So my questions to the Minister are\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225257248fffb3463887988329c1e36fa8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll call Reuben Davidson to finish his contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022620e86f999e24d3c8569668803d708b9\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to recap, before we ended there, the loss of a longitudinal survey that followed families for five to six years is a huge loss. And in the regulatory impact statement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dbd1fd015e141a49148c42b0a196375\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member. I extended your call so you could complete your contribution\u2014the questions you were asking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022597679a0460b40299945e49b25290701\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. Thank you, Madam Chair. My questions to the Minister are: what engagement has the Minister had with the Minister of Statistics to ensure meaningful longitudinal\u2014and that\u2019s the really important part here; not admin data, longitudinal\u2014research and surveys to measure the real and enduring effects and impacts of child poverty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225d13c92a44684e18bbdbb073bdbf1019\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d13c92a44684e18bbdbb073bdbf1019\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d direct the member Reuben Davidson to the Child Poverty Report 2024 that\u2019s been released this morning. That will outline a number of aspects in regards to the member\u2019s question, not necessarily directly related to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac1440d89d4e429b9ed3897db73c8283\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac1440d89d4e429b9ed3897db73c8283\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00221d76bd194ffe4e3493ca4dfdfa3db046\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d76bd194ffe4e3493ca4dfdfa3db046\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to revert to something that my colleague the Hon Ginny Andersen was discussing and take the question a step further. Now, in her call, the Hon Ginny Andersen was talking about the interaction of the minimum family tax credit, the in-work tax credit, paid work, all the sorts of sources of income and tax credits that people interact with, and she was concerned that people wouldn\u2019t know what their entitlements were. I realise, from my previous time in a similar role to the Minister in the chair, Simon Watts\u2014that, often, people who are getting minimum family tax credit and sort of wavering between benefit and paid work, they do go through complex calculations. One of the standard ways they work out whether or not to take on those extra few hours of work is that they ring up Inland Revenue and they ask questions of the call centre, and they go through that whole process of engaging with Inland Revenue directly in order to ascertain what their entitlements are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo, given these changes to tax thresholds, the in-work tax credit, the minimum family tax credit, and so on, which are really quite complicated, and what we anticipate will be the number of people who really don\u2019t understand what they\u2019re going to get, my first question in this regard is to what extent the Minister has, as a matter of prudence, I guess, ensured that Inland Revenue is resourced\u2014I do have another question, Minister; just hold your fire\u2014in order to handle all those incoming queries. Now, obviously, there\u2019s the tax calculator on the website, but that probably won\u2019t work for the people who we\u2019re talking about who are making that very marginal decision about whether to take on more work or to continue as they were, and so on. So there will be some pretty complicated stuff going on in that regard. So just a resourcing question there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere is another point here that I do wish to consider, and it\u2019s one that we were working on when we were in Government and I\u2019m sure the current Government is continuing to work on, and that\u2019s the people who end up in debt to Inland Revenue\u2014sometimes to the Ministry of Social Development (MSD)\u2014because they\u2019ve gotten their numbers wrong or they don\u2019t understand the complexity of the law. So they get too much of a tax credit\u2014their Working for Families tax credits get overpaid and they end up in debt. Now, some of the time, this is pretty easily sorted with the end-of-the-year tax calculation and so on, but, again, for these families who are in a pretty marginal state, who are on pretty low incomes, then getting too much Working for Families tax credits creates a problem for them because they then have to start paying it back on an already marginal income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, the standard strategy for a lot of families is just to, when they\u2019re claiming those tax credits, overstate their income, and that means that they get a lower tax credit during the year and they get the difference sorted out at year end. It\u2019s a good strategy, I know, particularly for lots of families where their income is earned from a business or something where the flow is a little bit uncertain and it gets sorted out that way. But these families who are really marginal, they actually want their tax credit as they go. They need that money on a week-by-week basis, so they are actually more vulnerable to falling into debt if they don\u2019t get those tax credits right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo, again, it comes down to a resourcing issue for the Inland Revenue Department, and do they have people on hand to help with that? But, also, has the Minister given any consideration to ensuring that families don\u2019t end up in debt to Inland Revenue, to MSD, as a respect of getting the tax credits wrong? And is there any ongoing work in that regard to ensure that when these tax credits and the tax threshold changes flow through to people, they get the right amount and not more than the right amount so that they don\u2019t end up in debt, which then just creates a further burden for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002280993b73752c4f8f911e2c360233580e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280993b73752c4f8f911e2c360233580e\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I wanted to expand on and bring some lines of question on clause 27 in relationship to the increase of the in-work tax credit. I particularly wanted to focus on whether the Minister has sought any advice from the Ministry of Social Development particularly around whether the increase to the in-work tax credit would widen the wealth and income gap between those in work and those out of work. I wanted to particularly, I guess, get an analysis from the Minister about whether there\u2019s any concerns that that increased income gap between those on the benefit and those in employment would have negative impacts. I mean, the regulatory impact statement (RIS) on the in-work tax credit changes talks about how the effectiveness of this tax credit has diminished over time, particularly when it comes to people being able to take up and stay in employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask whether the Minister knows where that assertion had come from and whether there was any research around the effectiveness of the in-work tax credit at all in its effectiveness to support people into employment, because, I mean, one thing is to have a value statement and an assumption that if you have this tax credit, people will take up employment; the other one is actually having that based on any substantive research. So that\u2019s my second question: what research has the Minister seen that substantiates the statement in the RIS that the in-work tax credit supports people into employment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve talked about how the in-work tax credit is seen as make-work pay, but that takes me to my third question, which is whether he considers caregiving as work and labour that actually deserves to be remunerated as such. Right now, the way that the in-work tax credit is laid out completely ignores caregiving responsibilities that sit outside of employment relations. So my third question is whether he has a view on whether caregiving is work; if not, why not? At the moment, that line of work, which the Greens do consider to be work that is currently undervalued and under-resourced, fails to be acknowledged in the in-work tax credit. So when we\u2019re thinking about, for example, caregivers, parents, people who support disabled people\u2014they\u2019re not eligible for this payment. They don\u2019t benefit from the increase in this payment, and those who may be receiving a benefit, for example, to do that work, which the Government doesn\u2019t officially consider work, will continue falling behind compared to those who will benefit from the in-work tax credit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other question that I had\u2014and I wanted to pick up on where my colleague Francisco Hernandez took over from\u2014was whether he actually had any information around the people who will have an increased effective marginal tax rate as a result of the changes outlined in Part 3, and whether he could give us, or whether he even received, a breakdown on who these people are. I think it\u2019s one thing to have in the regulatory impact statement a kind of broad assertion about how some people will have a higher effective marginal tax rate, but, as I said, I\u2019m starting to get really concerned around the robustness of the work the Government undertook to put forward these tax cuts, the inability for the Government to actually give us a population breakdown on how these changes will benefit or widen issues that already exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo, to recap, I\u2019m interested in whether he\u2019s received any advice around what the gap will be between those out of work, which includes many disabled people, and those who will receive the increase in the in-work tax credit; whether he\u2019s engaged with the Minister for Social Investment in this; a breakdown in the population groups who will have a higher effective marginal tax rate as a result of these changes; and whether the Government, and whether the Minister himself, considers caregiving to be work, and, if not, why not? So far, these changes will widen the gap from those who have, primarily, caregiving responsibilities as opposed to those that are in paid employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227e76a491b2fd4c81a887f97b77e1fd95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e76a491b2fd4c81a887f97b77e1fd95\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Just in response to the member\u2019s question, I mean, Part 3 is a very tight section, but I will provide a little bit of context outside of that, just to elaborate. So, as part of this process, Inland Revenue and officials have engaged extensively with the Ministry of Social Development throughout in regards to the interaction with this point. The point of this payment is to incentivise people to leave the benefit and get into work, and I think that\u2019s a pretty sensible objective. The reality is\u2014and the member may want to reflect on why this was the case\u2014that this has not changed or been adjusted since Budget 2015. So what we\u2019re, in effect, doing is making a change to reflect that implication, to incentivise moving from benefit to work and provide that benefit to nearly 160,000 households. That is good news and should be something that should be celebrated. So I\u2019m looking forward for the member to support this aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022779f7e46be4c4890b9dc8b1503b127b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022779f7e46be4c4890b9dc8b1503b127b5\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002286b72f5e38ff465c80699edd6f8857da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286b72f5e38ff465c80699edd6f8857da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I think there is still a bit of scope for interrogation of this part, but I am aware that we have started to get some repetition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002262aae056d2104915bb73dedf2bb5f324\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262aae056d2104915bb73dedf2bb5f324\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The South Island thanks you, Madam Chair. Look, I wanted to come back because I appreciate that there has been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a09d1dddec3c4a9e85a00c9c3936d1fd\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, new material, Rachel Boyack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022179a045bc69644989bc9debbfcd70e70\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I think Mr Meager should take a call, but I appreciate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bb879f5be664d75a2f4e33af7a91c03\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yield.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6dea963484c438e83ae1e46de87cf31\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we\u2019re not going to go there again\u2014that on this side of the Chamber there have been some questions that we put to the Minister again. I guess I\u2019ve made this point, and I often make this point during urgency at this stage of a debate that we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022465f4e9ee0d44c9c8200f409e6fc2381\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: New material?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b14d60e49c9415a80cd6f74ef31b788\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to make it again. The reason I\u2019m making this is that tax is actually the most significant topic that we can discuss in this House, I would put on record, and the Minister is agreeing, so I\u2019m really hoping that he\u2019s actually going to come back and answer the questions that have been put already by myself, by my colleague Deborah Russell, and by my colleague Ginny Andersen specifically around the interactions between these tax credits. I note that we do not have the opportunity to interrogate this matter in front of a select committee. The Minister has access to his officials to help guide him. So we would like to have a response to that question. We\u2019ve been discussing this on this side of the Chamber; we would like to hear about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe particular issue we have is that when all of these different tax mechanisms interact with each other, there are times when a person could end up, as the Hon Dr Deborah Russell noted, even being in debt to the IRD, which is not something, I think, any member in this Chamber would like to see\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295068ddee3864d85981b04d9cdac57fa\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022393eda12f8034d7faf985e1edfff0cd6\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Definitely not at all, Mr Bennett. So the question I had specifically for the Minister was that, under Labour, we introduced payday filing, which, I\u2019m sure, everyone understands is when there is a real-time tracking between the employer making the payment, and the IRD, to ensure that we have that real-time record. I\u2019ve certainly been contacted by the IRD before to say, under that system, that I was on the wrong tax code at one point. The question we had that was quite specific around this piece of legislation is: what mechanisms is the Government going to look at in terms of ensuring people are advised, rather than waiting until the worst happens at the end of a tax year and they have a debt to the IRD? I\u2019m sure none of us would want to see that, particularly\u2014let\u2019s be clear\u2014with low-income families; I think we would all like to make sure that they are receiving the correct mechanism throughout that year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI see the Minister jumped up, but the last time that happened, I didn\u2019t get an opportunity to complete my call. The other thing I just wanted to ask the Minister specifically, because he did, earlier in the debate, bring in the conversation around child poverty. I note, yes, this is a tight debate, but the Minister has actually introduced that matter himself into the debate. We on this side of the House do have questions about child poverty. My specific question is that we have seen from the Budget figures that there is an indication that child poverty numbers will increase in New Zealand as a result of these changes. On this side of the House, we are concerned about that. We put in place measures to ensure that we knew what the position was for the country, and we\u2019re very concerned to see that going backwards. So my question to the Minister is: what specific advice has he received on the interaction between the tax changes that the Government is making through this bill? Again, I note we do not have the opportunity to get a departmental report. The Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f30c1bdd32ef4b21800aed9ea833cde0\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just normal. Normal practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e5964e2167e4f53997b099a373fb504\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014would get an independent adviser to come in and actually ask these questions and provide this advice. We are not having that opportunity. I\u2019m just noting, under the Standing Orders, Mr Stephenson\u2014go read a book\u2014that this is an important part of the debate. We do have officials here who can advise the Minister, who could answer these questions. We on this side of the Chamber would like to hear those answers. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca49053f5a804eb5b09bdaa6b396a575\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca49053f5a804eb5b09bdaa6b396a575\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I do want to echo the fact that we haven\u2019t had a select committee hearing. I also want to respond to the Minister\u2019s comment that while he may claim that the clauses in Part 3 are tight, actually this is regarding the increase to those base rates. Those have significant impacts. So let\u2019s not conflate short language in legislation to a small impact to our communities; I think that\u2019s a disservice to the people who this bill claims to serve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Minister alluded to the fact that he had engaged with the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), that there was engagement with the Minister of Social Development. I want to ask what was fed to him and to the Government from the Minister of Social Development in those consultations. Because I do think that we didn\u2019t have a select committee hearing; we could have had robust engagement and evidence in relationship to what the Minister of Social Development said. He\u2019s got the officials behind him. So I think this is one of the flagship things in the Budget. The Government owes the public to have a robust discussion on who exactly will be impacted. We haven\u2019t received any form of engagement or even an address to, for example, the evidence that the in-work tax credit and increases to the in-work tax credit actually support reducing unemployment. I think the Minister owes the public a bit more robust engagement with the evidence behind this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Minister has also not been able to address, and has refused to even take note, who the people who will face a greater effective marginal tax rate are. Who are these people? He\u2019s got the officials behind him. If he cared about a robust debate, he actually would be seeking greater advice, because this, like I said, isn\u2019t just a casual bill; this is one of the flagship things in the Budget. I think, if members of the Opposition are trying to ascertain the robustness of the work, the Minister owes us some answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFinally, I know that we\u2019ve talked about the impact on disabled people in relationship to other parts of the bill, but I did want to get a sense of, in relationship very specifically to the increases in the in-work tax credit base rate, how many of those parents who are in work, who will receive a top-up, have disabled children, and have other additional needs. I wanted to get a sense as to whether he had had any interactions with MSD specifically in those interactions in the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen, I wanted to get a sense of what engagement with Whaikaha had been specifically on the increase to the in-work tax credit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224044c8600d0949ad828225081ece3547\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224044c8600d0949ad828225081ece3547\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E With not risking more repetition, but I will note again that we have undertaken significant engagement with multiple agencies in regards to this. One of the uniquenesses\u2014and maybe this is an incentive to try and accelerate and close this out, but we\u2019re talking about legislation that hasn\u2019t yet passed. It needs to pass before we know what impact that will have exactly. We won\u2019t know who the individuals are by specifics until they file their returns in the future. So asking questions about who these people are and what they are in the specific nature is just simply not possible. So the theoretical element of the question is without basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022420bf318bba34f81bacaafa472a1675a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022420bf318bba34f81bacaafa472a1675a\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got a very specific question in relation to the independent earner tax credit. The Minister might want to revisit his last answer, because I think what he just said was we should pass legislation and see how it works and then we\u2019ll know what it does. Like, that\u2019s just loopy. That\u2019s like, \u201CLet\u2019s just pass some stuff and see what happens, and then we\u2019ll know what it does.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s incumbent upon lawmakers within this House to go through some regular process, a regulatory impact statement, some analysis, some data, some evidence, to understand what the potential impacts of legislation would be on the population of New Zealand, instead of just decreeing law and seeing where it lands. So I\u2019m quite struck by\u00A0that comment by the Minister and he may wish to revisit it because it isn\u2019t really that sensical to a lot of New Zealanders\u2014who will be at the other end of this legislation. I think it would be within their best interests to understand that he\u2019s actually turned his\u00A0mind to how it might impact upon them before he simply passes this legislation through urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo my question, specifically, to the Minister is in and around the independent earner tax credit. We know that what this bill does is it lifts the upper-income threshold from $48,000 to $70,000, but that lower threshold limit remains at $24,000, and this all comes to into effect on 31\u00A0July. So we know that the independent earner tax credit is available for those individuals who might not be eligible for other kinds of Government support. So they won\u2019t be eligible for Working for Families or a main benefit or even superannuation. So the abatement rate for this tax credit will remain at 13c and this will apply to every dollar of income over $66,000 per annum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBut I would like the Minister to confirm and specify\u2014because I\u2019ve had some queries from people who are sitting right around that threshold, so this is where families are looking at what they earn, looking at where they\u2019re eligible, whether they\u2019re under that limit or over that limit. Can the Minister confirm that this would mean that there is, or there is not, any remaining entitlement to that independent earner tax credit when a person\u2019s income exceeds that $70,000 annual amount? I think that\u2019s where a lot of people are really doing those sums and looking to see whether that works for them or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe second question that I have for the Minister relates to increasing the in-work tax credit rate. I think we haven\u2019t actually had this clearly answered, and so what I want to know is that if taxpayers receive more from the previous one, the independent earner tax credit, than they would the in-work tax credit because of the change, does the IRD do that, or not? Or is that incumbent upon the wage earner, the person who\u2019s paying the tax, to figure that out? Are people required to do those sums, figure out which one they get more on and do it themselves, or is that work that the IRD will do on behalf of New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFurthermore, can the Minister speak, is the IRD well-resourced enough to be able to be doing all this work? There\u2019s going to be hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders coming forward with questions about which tax credit they\u2019re eligible for, how they interplay with each other. Is the IRD going to have their 0800 number up and running without two hours of waiting time, so that New Zealanders are able to get answers to these questions and figure out how they go about getting additional money each week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo they\u2019re my two specific questions to the Minister. It\u2019s around the $70,000 tax threshold, whether they\u2019re eligible; and the second one is on that interaction\u2014whether IRD proactively makes that change for them or whether that is incumbent upon the\u00A0person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022032617ee6ae24f398cfd818e8b1d04df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022032617ee6ae24f398cfd818e8b1d04df\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225172bdbd668e4c6f923f75c50435cffc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee0cd75b423a497fa666d0ae0bda3e2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee0cd75b423a497fa666d0ae0bda3e2d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to amend clause 27 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022336aca70d640442694befeb75dec52d9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e1cfe877beba422ea57e3682ae23e1d5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a44c4964c3f54da997ff67d72bfc310b\u0022\u003EPart 4  Income Tax Act 2007 amendments commencing 1April2025 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000393\u0022\u003E\u00A0\u00A0\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2d62744319f4f678119ff7503a131e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2d62744319f4f678119ff7503a131e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on Part 4. Part 4 is the debate on clauses 33 to 39, \u201CIncome Tax Act 2007 amendments commencing 1\u00A0April\u00A02025\u201D. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00229376bf0e2afd449e91f5c0dac3f4bea6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229376bf0e2afd449e91f5c0dac3f4bea6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E If we thought that the last part of the bill was exciting, this is even more exciting in this part. Ha, ha! I had hoped the Minister would be especially excited about it that he would stand up to explain what this part of the bill is about, but he\u2019s been in the chair for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThese are a whole series of Income Tax Act amendments. And it\u2019s quite curious because it says, \u201CIncome Tax Act 2007 amendments commencing 1\u00A0April\u00A02025\u201D. We\u2019ve already had a bit of a discussion way back in Part 1 about the starting date of a lot of the tax threshold changes\u201431\u00A0July. I did have one final question for the Minister on that part, and that was whether that was because it\u2019s Milton Friedman\u2019s birthday on 31\u00A0July. But perhaps not. Nevertheless, we would have expected that most of the amendments and changes would take place from that date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut here we have this part of the bill that is talking about all the amendments starting from 1\u00A0April\u00A02025. So that\u2019s a curious question in the first place as to why it would start from 1\u00A0April\u00A02025. So just before we really get going on this part, I\u2019m going to invite the Minister, I guess\u2014I hope he\u2019ll explain exactly why we\u2019ve got these ones starting on 1\u00A0April\u00A02025. Can someone jump up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d078b5a2960c43d192397eea06617ab4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d078b5a2960c43d192397eea06617ab4\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, my colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell, who I know is very passionate about all things tax and very learned as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI think it would be good for the Minister (a) to provide us with that sort of foundation knowledge\u2014that little bit of background that Deborah Russell has asked for. But when we think about Part 4 in particular, as opposed to Part 3, which was described as just a whole lot of numbers changing\u2014but as we found out throughout that process, it ended up being not quite so technical and there were some real nuggets of interest in there that without asking those questions we wouldn\u2019t necessarily have had those answers elucidated to us in lieu of, obviously, there being no select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo when I turn my mind to Part 4, I suppose, which is a very technical part of the tax change\u2014flowing the tax threshold changes to all sorts of other thresholds in the actual Income Tax Act, if I have read that correctly. I wonder if the Minister could tell us a little bit more about how those threshold rates of the new tax thresholds\u2014I think they\u2019re on page\u00A020, if I\u2019m in the right part; clause 33 to 39. Yes, so if we look at page\u00A020 about the fringe benefit tax rates, just as an example, it\u2019s not clear from the bill. So could you just talk us through that table in particular in relation to those fringe benefit tax rates. I think that background will help inform the rest of the questions that we\u2019ve got about this part in particular. But if you could do that, that would be much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EJust looking at colleagues here, I know that there\u2019s a couple of other questions probably looking for that elucidation of that foundation work. And I know that Dr Deborah Russell has some other technical questions to ventilate on this part before we sort of move on. So that would be much appreciated if the Minister could do that, please, and I\u2019ll come back and ask my other questions subsequent to that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00228c4e6c2b941443c481071e0c4a821c70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c4e6c2b941443c481071e0c4a821c70\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Chair, for the opportunity to provide a little bit of context on what is a very exciting Part 4 of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENow, what, in effect, is happening with the dates here is that the overarching changes that\u00A0we\u2019ve outlined will be effective from 31 July 2024; however, there are a number of\u00A0consequential tax changes which will occur from 1 April 2025. The member asked the question in terms of why that is the case. Well, primarily the reason is to reduce the compliance and administrative burden from the fact that we are starting a process part way through a tax year, so that when we make the other consequential adjustments on other tax groups, we want to start clean, in effect, and start from 1 April 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s very much just a very pragmatic and practical approach that officials have flowed through to enable us to deal with the reality of introducing tax threshold changes part-way through the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00222f820ac7ded847c4924911ce09438774\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f820ac7ded847c4924911ce09438774\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. My question is also in relation to table 1, which is on page\u00A020 of the bill in question. I would like to know how the range of dollar and pay threshold and rates relate to the new tax thresholds and rates that are stipulated in that table at the top of page\u00A020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo what I think I heard, and if he can confirm, is that if this table is, in fact, about fringe benefit tax rates\u2014which is not that apparent from reading the bill, to be honest. Could you clarify that? Specifically, it would be good to know how the range of dollar and pay thresholds and rates relate to the new thresholds and rates that have been proposed through the changes. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022869430e3007543379a87a5bcc809780c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022869430e3007543379a87a5bcc809780c\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I note that, picking up from where my colleagues have left off, looking at the ESCT\u2014which is the employer superannuation contribution tax\u2014a lot of people may not have heard of that, but that is very similar to a fringe benefit tax, except that it applies to superannuation contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard a lot of discussion about what the change to thresholds are attempting to do, but I\u2019m really interested to know\u2014given my capacity as Opposition seniors spokesperson and the information that I\u2019ve had and the calls that I\u2019ve taken over the last few months about the impact of superannuation and the superannuation gap for women\u2014what advice or consultation there was for the superannuation contributions in these tables around these thresholds? Was there a gender lens put on it at all? Because this would have seemed a really good opportunity, in my view, given that there is a big disparity about the superannuation that many women are left with because of the stalling in their careers\u2014often they go off, have children, whatever, and they don\u2019t get to contribute. Now, under the previous Government, we had committed to having a superannuation scheme that meant that those women who took time out from their careers would still be able to benefit and to close that gap. I see it a lot in my electorate with homelessness. It\u2019s called the \u201Cinvisible group\u201D, a lot of women who don\u2019t have that money are often left couch surfing and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo it would have seemed like an ideal opportunity here, when shifting these groups and looking at superannuation specifically\u2014which is what this table does\u2014to consider a gender approach and see whether there would be any kind of policy intervention, policy tool, that could have been used cleanly in this legislation to try to leverage off that; to close that gap. Given the speed at which we\u2019re doing this in, and given the fact we don\u2019t have a select committee process, I can harbour a guess and I would say, in all likelihood, that the Minister probably didn\u2019t even remotely consider it, because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s reflected in any of the policies that we\u2019ve seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut I would like it on the record, if that\u2019s the case, because we don\u2019t have a select committee process. Women are concerned; aged-care groups are concerned about the gender gap. This would have been an opportunity, maybe not to fix it but to at least get advice on that. I\u2019d like to know if the Minister sought advice or if the officials provided any advice, or if he even turned his mind to what the implications of this would be for the superannuation gap for women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfa240f2d88547d8ad0e469ba2fcc523\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfa240f2d88547d8ad0e469ba2fcc523\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The member raises a fair point, and the reality is that if we go broader, the disparity for women, in particular, at retirement is a gap against men and that is a well-known factor. The reality of what we\u2019re discussing here, though, within this bill, is the consequential impacts of changes in personal income tax rates. What the member is referring to is a broader conversation in terms of superannuation from a policy point of view, which is not reflected in this part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff6e4d9ac97b4b4e8815195110ec9fed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff6e4d9ac97b4b4e8815195110ec9fed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for us to break for the lunch break. We will suspend until 2 p.m. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223d48d7477f894a4e822a4cb41243a576\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d48d7477f894a4e822a4cb41243a576\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, before the lunch break, we were debating Part 4 of the bill. So just a reminder that Part 4 is clauses 33 to 39, \u201CIncome Tax Act 2007 amendments commencing 1\u00A0April\u00A02025\u201D and the question we\u2019re on is that Part\u00A04\u00A0stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00220fbd802079df4b7eaf747ccc2a2faee5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fbd802079df4b7eaf747ccc2a2faee5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Before the lunch break, we were back to dates, and I did question the Minister over the 1\u00A0April\u00A02025 start date for this part of the bill, in comparison to the 31\u00A0July\u00A02024 start date for the changes to the personal income tax thresholds. I just want to make sure I\u2019ve got the explanation from the Minister correct. The Minister explained that for changes to fringe benefit tax (FBT) thresholds and employer superannuation contribution tax (ESCT) thresholds, the decision was made to have those changes start from 1\u00A0April\u00A02025 for compliance cost reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe way the Minister\u2019s nodding, I sense I\u2019ve got the gist of that. OK, so that\u2019s helpful. It\u2019s a really interesting decision, and I\u2019m looking to see if the Minister asked his officials to do any modelling of it, because what it means is that from 31\u00A0July\u00A02024 until 31\u00A0March\u00A02025, employers are going to be over-taxed on fringe benefit tax and on employee superannuation contribution tax in comparison to the personal tax rates of the employees on whose behalf they are paying fringe benefit tax and ESCT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe fringe benefit tax thresholds are really, really carefully set. They look like very odd numbers, but they\u2019re really carefully calibrated so that if an employee is paid entirely in money\u2014you know, salary or wages\u2014then their personal tax rates are as set out in the Income Tax Act. But if they are paid in a combination of money\u2014pretty easily taxed\u2014and benefits, say like the use of a car or whatever, then you have to do a whole lot of grossing up of the value of the benefit and then taxing it back, and there are some pretty complicated calculations that go into that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut the objective there is to ensure that if an employee is paid in salary and benefits\u2014say, $100,000 worth of salary plus benefits\u2014compared to an employee who is paid straightforwardly in just $100,000 of cash, that the tax rates that are applied, whether it\u2019s through the personal income tax rates or a combination of the personal income tax rates and the fringe benefit tax rates work out exactly the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, of course, the employee never sees the fringe benefit tax rates; they are paid by\u00A0the employer, because it\u2019s the employer\u2019s decision to use the benefit and things like that. What it means is that if these changes to the fringe benefit tax rates and the employee superannuation contribution tax rates are not changed at exactly the same time as the\u00A0personal income tax rates, then employers\u2014small businesses, large businesses, Government departments, medium-sized businesses, little one-person bands and the like\u2014are being over-taxed on fringe benefit tax and employee superannuation contribution tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe amounts per employee are not going to be large, but it is still over-taxation, and by the time it goes across numbers of employees, it could add up to a fairly significant amount. So there are a couple of questions here. Since when does the party that prides itself on being\u00A0the party of business\u2014and that\u2019s a bit dubious, actually\u2014charge employers more? Since when do they add those sneaky extra costs onto employers? That\u2019s exactly what\u2019s happened here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, there could be a good reason for this. It could be a good reason. It could be that by the time the calculations were done, the amount of extra FBT and ESCT per employee was outweighed by the compliance cost of doing the calculation. So you weigh up the amount of tax paid versus the cost of actually paying the tax, and sometimes you might as well just pay the extra tax rather than go through the hassle of doing the calculations. I\u2019m hoping that was the explanation. I\u2019m guessing that\u2019s the explanation the Minister\u2019s going to give to me in a moment, but I actually genuinely want to know what\u2019s gone on there, because it looks odd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EMaybe I\u2019ve got the wrong end of the stick on this, but I would like the Minister to explain it to me. Following his explanation, I do want to dig into this, because this is actually quite serious, so I\u2019ll just wait for the Minister\u2019s explanation on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1a27c8e68414c46875c918daa334f49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1a27c8e68414c46875c918daa334f49\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. We\u2019re back from the lunch break on the home straight of this bill. We are nearly there. Kiwis will soon have the benefit of tax cuts which they\u2019ve been waiting for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe prior member\u2019s question in regards to this\u2014she used the term over-taxation; it\u2019s simply not the case. I mean, the status quo in regards to the rates is unchanged. The changing of the rates will come in on 1\u00A0April\u00A02025. So it\u2019s not that anyone\u2019s getting over-taxed or more tax. The rates as they sit today are unchanged until that point in the future. Therefore, the reasons and rationale, as I outlined previously in an answer to the same question, relate to some of the compliance considerations of what happens when you introduce a change in the personal income tax rates part-way through a year. We\u2019ve made that decision assessment based on the cost compliance trade-off, but rest assured that the rates of fringe benefit tax that are paid today don\u2019t change all of a sudden today. They will be changing on 1\u00A0April, so no one\u2019s getting over-taxed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022170521c0c52d43059d21a1e656bb41fd\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d78b6b2c8c047a1863198958f2326e2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Francisco Hernandez.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc8fb3b899634ef4937dc2f0757b8e43\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: I want to pursue this, Madam Chair; it\u2019s important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223094742e41764a42b1bdb7da0f6f0d3f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Share around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u0022244fa8c1e0b14ad9997deb4e46a28322\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022244fa8c1e0b14ad9997deb4e46a28322\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a couple of questions to the Minister. They relate to clause 34 all the way to clause 39. We know that from the tax cuts that result from this, some of it will probably have to be funded from borrowing, which will result in future taxpayers funding these short-term sweeteners while also taking on additional burdens due to the social and physical infrastructure deficit. These tax cuts will lead to about $17.1 billion of extra borrowing. The tax package costs $4.17 billion, which means that future taxpayers will be paying for them in terms of the deficits, not to mention the infrastructure and Public Service deficits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ESo what advice have you had on the impact on future borrowing, and is this perhaps why they are not indexed to inflation, things like the pay rates? Because we won\u2019t be able\u00A0to keep paying for them in the future. And if we\u2019re wanting to be providing services just at the same level of today\u2014not even talking about improving services for the future,\u00A0which is what we on this side of the House want\u2014without raising any new revenue-raising measures and given that the operating allowance that the Minister announced yesterday is not even enough just to keep pace with current levels of service delivery\u2014$13 billion of the $17\u00A0billion announced for the health spending is just to preserve existing services\u2014what sort of analysis has been done on what the impact of these changes might be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re really concerned that the impact of the changes that are happening in this bill\u00A0will actually undermine the ability of future Governments to actually deliver on core public services, not even to improve them. What advice have you received specifically on the impact of the lost revenue from this tax package on future operating allowances? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002239024069b8584f289385831e42bff063\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239024069b8584f289385831e42bff063\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just going to help the member a little bit in regards to this question, because the information is clearly available that the tax relief that we\u2019ve outlined, as part of this bill, is fully funded. The tax relief is fully funded through both savings and revenue initiatives. The Government is not borrowing to fund this tax relief, so it won\u2019t have implications around inflation. So the whole premise around the point of that question is not based on the fact and the reality. The fact sheet provided with this Budget outlines a clear articulation of the annual average, both tax relief and savings, that adds up to the total cost of the package, which is circa $3.7 billion per year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c81c7ae229a74b129309bb3afa9ce749\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c81c7ae229a74b129309bb3afa9ce749\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to make it clear to those who are asking questions that we\u2019re looking for questions now, rather than speeches or assumptions, so we\u2019re really sticking to the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00221498903cd2db4c5099335605e7ff7a8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221498903cd2db4c5099335605e7ff7a8e\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have a lot of questions, because this is a very complex area of the bill. So, if the Minister would indulge me, I just wanted to ask a few questions around Part 4, and specifically clause 36 that replaces section RD 17(4)(c) with the low threshold amount. But in new section RD 17(4)(c)(i), they\u2019ve got a secondary code of $0, and I just wanted the Minister to perhaps explain to us, as we might have been able to go through in select committee, on page\u00A019 of the bill in clause 36 of the primary legislation, I just wondered if the Minister could just go through for the committee exactly the necessity\u2014which I\u2019m sure there is one, and I\u2019m sure his officials, if he isn\u2019t aware,\u00A0will be able to tell him. But I\u2019m interested in the answer of why have new section RD\u00A017(4)(c)(i) when it just inputs a $0 factor into the piece of legislation. So that\u2019s my first\u00A0question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe next question I had is in relation to clause 37, which looks at the different tax rates of taxable income that would apply. Now, in this particular explanation of it, obviously we\u2019ve got the rows and then we\u2019ve got the range of dollar in taxable income. I just wanted to know from the Minister, is this a convention that we only refer to a dollar amount when we\u2019re obviously talking about a range of income? Why do we use the singular and not the plural in this instance? Is that convention or is that, in fact, an error in the bill? I\u2019d be interested to hear that from the Minister. And you\u2019ll see in table\u00A01 over the page that\u2019s also repeated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn relation to the employer superannuation contribution tax (ESCT) rate, I know my colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell had some questions in relation to ESCT. This is a tax that I am familiar with, in the past when I\u2019ve employed someone and done their payroll myself, having to go through that process of obviously paying the person, paying income tax, and then also paying the additional taxes in relation to superannuation. So I\u2019m just interested, with that ESCT rate, I understand that that has not been changed but the tax rate has been changed. And I wanted to hear from the Minister: did he receive advice on also altering the ESCT rate in line with the change of taxation thresholds or is this not something he received advice on? I want to know what the advice is. And if he didn\u2019t ask for that advice, why, in fact, he didn\u2019t and why it wasn\u2019t considered. So those are my questions for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002247aca346e0cd42d4b80935136ef99f21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247aca346e0cd42d4b80935136ef99f21\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll work through these questions succinctly. The first aspect in regards to clause 36 inserting new section RD 17(4)(c)(i), in terms of secondary code at zero\u2014I mean, it is no\u00A0more complex than one starts at zero and works their way up from zero in regards to tax bands. So that is simply just articulating that point, which is very consistent with any\u00A0tax bands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the employer superannuation contribution tax in clause 37(3), the thresholds are higher than the personal income tax thresholds. And the reason for this is because of the concessionary treatment that allows for the employer\u2019s contributions to be taxed at the employee\u2019s marginal tax rate. In effect, that\u2019s what you\u2019re seeing flow through in regards to that clause, and that\u2019s why it is what it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022bda6cdafa88748d39b880f81cb336cab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bda6cdafa88748d39b880f81cb336cab\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We need to probe into this difference between the personal tax thresholds, the employer superannuation contribution tax (ESCT) rates, and the fringe benefit tax rates (FBT). If we\u2019d had a select committee process, this is exactly the question we could have gone into in some detail, because it is complicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister of Revenue said in his last reply to me that the decision was made to leave the ESCT rates and the FBT rates at the same thresholds as they are at now, so there\u2019s no change in how employers are being taxed\u2014having to pay FBT and ESCT\u2014in\u00A0comparison to what they\u2019re paying now. Here\u2019s the problem with that answer\u2014and there\u2019s a whole series of things that flow from it\u2014ESCT rates and FBT rates are set in comparison to personal income tax thresholds. They are very carefully calibrated to make sure that no matter whether a person is paid in cash or is paid in cash in kind, the tax paid is exactly the same. But now, we\u2019ve got a difference. Because the ESCT thresholds and the FBT thresholds are not moving at the same time as the personal income tax thresholds, we have a mismatch between being paid in cash, or being paid in cash in kind. People who are paid in cash and in kind are, in effect, being overtaxed for the period from 31\u00A0July\u00A02024 to 31\u00A0March\u00A02025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe fact is the individual employees never see that particular tax\u2014the FBT and the ESCT\u2014but the employer does. The explanation given, sitting in the regulatory impact statement, says that the other consequential tax type rates\u2014portfolio investment entities, FBT, ESCT, retirement scheme contribution tax\u2014would be adjusted from 1\u00A0April\u00A02025. \u201CThis will allow more time to make the changes and reduce the complexity of the changes.\u201D So it reduces compliance cost. It is a straightforward trade-off between compliance costs, on one hand, and paying extra tax, in comparison to personal income tax rates, on the other hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the question that flows from that: first of all, what modelling was done on how much extra FBT and ESCT employers would be paying in comparison to the personal income tax rate\u2014not in comparison to what they\u2019re paying now, but in comparison to the personal income tax rates that apply from 31\u00A0July\u00A02024 to 31\u00A0March\u00A02025\u2014in order to make the assessment that it was better to incur more compliance costs rather than pay more tax? There would have to be an assessment of how much extra FBT and ESCT was being paid. So what modelling was done to calculate that? So that\u2019s the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe second question is: were employers consulted? There\u2019s a choice there. Now, we\u2019ve actually already got choices in the FBT system. There\u2019s a really significant choice that employers already make between a couple of methods of calculating FBT. One ends up with them paying a bit more FBT, but it\u2019s a simpler way of calculating it. So there\u2019s a straightforward trade-off there\u2014already in the FBT system\u2014between compliance costs and tax and the actual tax paid. But that\u2019s the employer\u2019s choice. In this case, the Government has made the choice that the employers will pay more tax rather than having more compliance costs. So instead of allowing employers to make that decision, the Government has made that decision for them. Now, I\u2019m assuming it\u2019s going to be on good grounds, but I would like to know if the Minister consulted employers about what treatment they would prefer to have. Because in a case where there\u2019s a trade-off between compliance costs and the amount of tax paid\u2014and it\u2019s compliance costs, so that\u2019s the cost to the individual employer, not the Government\u2019s administration costs\u2014that should surely be the employer\u2019s choice. So there\u2019s a real problem there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo I want to know from the Minister: what modelling was done to assess the amount of extra FBT and ESCT that would be paid in comparison to personal income tax rates\u2014as the personal income tax rates are set from 31\u00A0July\u00A02024 to 31\u00A0March\u00A02025\u2014so that that assessment could be made, and were employers consulted about it? So, as already happens in the FBT system, were employers enabled to make that choice about whether they would prefer to pay more tax or prefer to incur more compliance costs? Please, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278da4fe1911d4fed8b5b96ff0af9c01f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2014and just a reminder, because some people have now come into the Chamber\u2014and I\u2019m not referring to this particular member, but we\u2019ve had people coming in\u2014that we\u2019re just looking for questions now, not speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5a811c13862405faf1ab924152c9343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5a811c13862405faf1ab924152c9343\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I take your point and I heard your earlier ruling. You\u2019ll forgive me\u2014this is a new a brand of inquiry and I\u2019m struggling to not explain it, so instead I will ask the Minister of Revenue a question, but I hope he will explain to the committee what it is that I\u2019m getting to. My question to the Minister is: what are retirement scheme contribution tax (RSCT) and resident withhold tax (RWT)? In light of the previous contributions by my colleagues about the effect of the income tax changes on employer superannuation contribution tax (ESCT) and attributed fringe benefits, there\u2019s also a flow-on effect for RSCT and to RWT, so we need the Minister to explain that to the committee. Then\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0710e2fae594945b120e6ede8485e33\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just ask the member to repeat that question, because the Minister was taking some advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ff95c809794c14adfd6d7e4954daf6\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdac957166014805ae4a57ca56dd5c65\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So if you could just repeat that, because that was quite specific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b084770570e4cbc8afdaa365c3c3022\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Two questions for you, Minister: (1) what are RSCT and RWT; (2) what is the effect of making the changes that you have made without further amendment to RSCT and RWT? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy third question is: given the last time a National Government proposed to make similar changes to those you have made in clause 7, amending Schedule 1 of the Income Tax Act 2007, they made the flow-on changes to ESCT, RSCT, RWT, and attributed fringe benefits, why have you chosen not to make changes to RSCT and RWT in this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e419f9a58ed64564a5e8891365660092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e419f9a58ed64564a5e8891365660092\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want an elaboration of the Minister\u2019s answers to me about the deficit. If you\u2019ll forgive me, I\u2019m new to this place, so I\u2019m still learning how it all works. If the projected Government deficit is $13.4 billion, how does the Minister\u2019s assertion that there is not any borrowing for the tax cuts align with that kind of reality? Is it coming from the so-called magic money tree that\u00A0members from the opposite money benches like to refer to? Is it not being borrowed? I have no idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EI have a second question as well, which relates to all the acronyms that were being thrown out here. Can you tell me what the acronym \u201CRESPCT\u201D stands for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229be879ebf4c64f2c83e292311773b8b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229be879ebf4c64f2c83e292311773b8b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Dr Deborah Russell, and specific to something that hasn\u2019t been answered, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022bed9b86da659474ab2b25dc10237a273\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bed9b86da659474ab2b25dc10237a273\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just going to say, Madam Chair, I\u00A0do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281e8f1f35e41418ea5febe4d629d4ed3\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. Thank you very much. We acknowledge your direction to the committee in terms of questions, the issue being, though, as the Hon Dr Deborah Russell pointed out, the line of inquiry she has is regarding an area\u00A0that is specifically complex, and her follow-up question was as a result of the response from the Minister that then drew other questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8ad6617e8754b8c91915c9674c9fee9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6322dfd39a544cf83e747f7eca6268d\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: But the direction that you just gave was that you\u2019re seeking questions in a different area. So what I\u2019m seeking to clarify is: if there are follow-up questions within the same area\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205071d92bd964fccbdbf708bcd232612\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Follow-up questions are fine as long as they\u2019re not the same questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238ee6e1bcd014436b41fd1f4d57cbb88\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: So the issue isn\u2019t so much around relevance, as repetition? Fair enough. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d2e118cc60148b6989bf2b0a2f5d575\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3400b266ea94ddc82e87227ec6b76be\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Simon Watts just wants to take a call and then I\u2019ll come back to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e35eda71e11142c89461f9178ac3e302\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e35eda71e11142c89461f9178ac3e302\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll disregard the member\u2019s last statement, which was not a question; it was quite irrelevant. But RSCT is \u201Cretirement scheme contribution tax\u201D; RWT is \u201Cresident withholding tax\u201D. So that\u2019s the definition around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe question before, previously, around modelling and consultation\u2014Budget secrecy, a number of restrictions around the ability to consult specifically with these impacted aspects around fringe benefit tax (FBT). But what we do know, from historic terms\u2014and the member will no doubt be aware of that, from their prior experiences\u2014is that any introduction of changes part-year brings high degrees of complexity and compliance. That aspect is what has been the basis in regards to the decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENo specific modelling was undertaken as a result of that, but we do know from the evidence that we\u2019ve seen over many, many years that part-year adjustments do bring compliance and complexity, and the sector feedback consistently is that their preference is to start the year off clean, versus doing part-year. So that\u2019s why the FBT changes are what they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00220cb8d5c0f6544b3a945d5642d9b80364\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cb8d5c0f6544b3a945d5642d9b80364\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I do have one other set of questions around clause 39 that I would like to go to, but to keep things straight, I just want to go back to this issue that we\u2019re really pursuing right now. I am a little surprised, to be honest, that no modelling has been done. Now, it would take a bit of time with a spreadsheet and a calculator to work out the difference in fringe benefit tax (FBT) and employer superannuation contribution tax (ESCT) that would be paid per employee given the changes in the thresholds. It could be done\u2014and I note the bank of excellent officials there. It\u2019s a set of numbers and it could be calculated, and it could have been calculated within IRD. I take the Minister in the chair Simon Watts\u2019 point about consultation, but I\u00A0notice that they did consult with payroll providers, so some consultation\u2019s good and some consultation is bad? Let\u2019s have a little think about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI am actually genuinely serious about this, because what is happening is that employers will have to pay more tax in comparison to the personal income tax rates. This is extra tax\u2014not in comparison to what is being paid now but in comparison to what will be paid\u00A0from 31\u00A0July\u2014being loaded on to employers. Now, I take the point about the trade-off with the complexity of the compliance costs. That is a known phenomenon, and the\u00A0Minister and his officials are quite right to say that there are compliance costs there, but why was the choice not offered? That\u2019s the thing, and the Minister hasn\u2019t answered that question yet. I asked it previously and it hasn\u2019t been answered yet. In the FBT system as it stands at the moment, there are two ways of calculating fringe benefit tax: one has\u00A0higher compliance costs; the other one has higher actual FBT. So we already have the concept of a choice being over to employers sitting within the FBT system. Why did the Minister not allow employers to make that choice as to whether employers wanted to incur higher compliance costs or whether employers wanted to incur higher FBT tax rates\u00A0in comparison to the personal income tax rates that are in force from 31\u00A0July until next year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat is the last question I\u2019ll ask on this topic. I do have another set of questions, but I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister on that, and then I\u2019ll go back to the one further set of questions that I would like to ask on this part. [Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570f060941824408b2ee2fd506413676\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps if the Hon Dr Deborah Russell could ask that one more set of questions that you just referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c94c31d688a740dfbaa7bafefa0abf70\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ll ask the second\u2014right. May I have a five-minute call on this? It\u2019ll take a little bit of extra.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5b4c0fb3a884cbe9f9215290be42c7b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It is a five-minute call\u2014as long as it\u2019s based on questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af0cc0d865314977b95fd7e2a8477256\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: It is. The same thing is applying now in clause 39\u00A0of the bill, and this is the new portfolio investment entity (PIE) rate, the prescribed rates for PIE investments and retirement scheme contributions. This one\u2019s even more interesting, because what is happening, as far as I can tell, and the Minister will be able to confirm this with a nod; you might want to wait, Minister\u2014but the rate at which tax is paid in PIEs has a series of thresholds, and for most of us on the higher rates, we get a concessionary tax rate. So if you\u2019re on the 39 percent rate, your PIE rate is, nevertheless, 28 percent; if you have a 33 percent rate, your PIE rate is 28 percent; 30 percent rate, your PIE rate is 28\u00A0percent; if your income tax rate is 17.5 percent, your PIE rate is 17.5\u00A0percent; and if your income tax rate is 10.5 percent, your PIE rate is 10.5 percent. So there\u2019s concessions at the higher end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, as far as I can tell, the PIE rate thresholds are not changing until 1\u00A0April next year either. That\u2019s correct? OK, I\u2019ve got that correct. What that means is that low-income people who nevertheless are putting savings aside, as they would do through KiwiSaver and the like\u2014you know, making contributions to KiwiSaver\u2014are getting taxed at the same rate from 31\u00A0July this year until 31\u00A0March next year at the rate that applies right now. So those low-income people sitting in PIEs are not going to get the benefit of the lower rates until 1\u00A0April next year. I just wondered if the Minister could confirm that that\u2019s correct. I\u2019m trying to read this and get my head around it. So, as far as I can tell, those PIE thresholds are not changing till then. It means that low-income investors in KiwiSaver are going to keep on paying the same rates as they are now. Now, sure, it\u2019s in comparison to the same rates as they are now, but they are not going to get the benefit of the changes to the income tax thresholds until 1\u00A0April next year. So it\u2019s not just employers who are having to pay more FBT and more ESCT in comparison to the personal income tax rates; now we have low-income investors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s what it\u2019s saying. I would really appreciate it if the Minister would confirm that that is exactly what is going on. It\u2019s even more important, given that those of us who are on higher incomes and are on the higher tax rates\u2014on the 39, 33, and 30 percent marginal tax rates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2c28e8207054aa3981bb7a20b33f42b\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a question or a political statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d69f5cc1e21946cf8917fa2bd7011215\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, please take a call, Mr Bates. If you\u2019re interested in this, please take a call. So if I could just get that confirmation from the Minister that that\u2019s what\u2019s going on, because it does make a difference. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb876f8b50204c8e85036db537245ed8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb876f8b50204c8e85036db537245ed8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much to the member Deborah Russell for that question. The member is correct that the implications around the portfolio investment entity rates will not change until 1\u00A0April\u00A02025, and the rationale, again, is consistent with the other concession tax rates that we\u2019ve outlined today. To be more specific, the implications around that will be in regards to the managed funds entities and the compliance burden that will fall upon them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe reality is that, again, this Government, on this side of the House, is implementing and putting in place tax relief and personal tax reductions; on that side of the House, they\u2019re opposing that. So to be talking about a concept of not having increasing tax, the status quo of the rate in which someone is paid today versus where they\u2019ll be in 2025\u2014they\u2019re not getting over taxed; that concept is just simply not correct. And I hope the member, through the process of what we\u2019ve been through in this committee of the whole House stage, may be at a point of deciding, \u201CActually, maybe we should support this bill, because, actually, we do want to support hard-working Kiwis with tax relief.\u201D That would be a really good outcome from this committee of the whole House stage, but I\u2019ll leave that with the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfc3e32167b44084ba5cc784f3a40d9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfc3e32167b44084ba5cc784f3a40d9f\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002276e3fb3bfb02434eab6f5c2d94c18021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276e3fb3bfb02434eab6f5c2d94c18021\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Deborah Russell, you said to me that you had one set of questions that was going to be relayed in your five-minute call\u2014this is it, right? So I\u2019m going to give you another call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00221a9b16bf830546b7934ca822326a025b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a9b16bf830546b7934ca822326a025b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. So I am focusing very specifically on clause 39, and I just want to express my shock at what the Minister has just said. The decision this Government has made is to ensure that low-income people, people who are on the lower tax thresholds\u2014their marginal rates are 10.5 or 17.5 percent. The Minister has just confirmed that they are going to tax them more. That is appalling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d17732fccc9a4a0fa4faab2e23005c35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d17732fccc9a4a0fa4faab2e23005c35\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224f46ef28b19a40b893cc80c8c60f1436\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b2c63618e6054e72945e7ec79000f3cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022964e43348b4543af9240f2ace40a6be6\u0022\u003EPart 5  Other amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224f90dafb38004fa2ae43802489285cb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f90dafb38004fa2ae43802489285cb2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to the debate on Part 5. Part 5 is the debate on clauses 40 to 44: other amendments to the Tax Administration Act 1994 and the Student Loan Scheme Act 2011. The question is that Part 5 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c718ee182e17484cb390ef221f826f40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c718ee182e17484cb390ef221f826f40\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I thought it\u2019d be useful to provide a little bit of context in regards to the changes that are being proposed in this section of the bill because they are specific in nature, and it just will be helpful in order for us to get to any questions, if there are any. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe research and development tax incentive\u2014or the RDTI\u2014allows businesses undertaking eligible R\u00A0\u0026amp;\u00A0D activities to claim a 15 percent tax credit on eligible R\u00A0\u0026amp;\u00A0D expenditure. To participate in this process, a business must enrol and submit an application for approval, and then file a return subsequently. Under the current status quo, if a business makes a mistake that invalidates that approval, then they will not be eligible for the R\u00A0\u0026amp;\u00A0D tax credit, and one of the specific mistakes that they could make is when they have the wrong entity that is listed on the application process. Under the current legislation, there\u2019s no ability for the commissioner to take into account a simple error and mistake and remedy that. They simply are ineligible to be able to claim that credit, which obviously doesn\u2019t sound fair and reasonable\u2014and nor is it, in our assessment\u2014and hence why we\u2019re proposing to make a change to ensure that if such a small number of taxpayers do make such mistakes, then there is discretion by the commissioner to make changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7361924449e4a408dea45cf032b4d1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7361924449e4a408dea45cf032b4d1e\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just for a little bit of context, this part of the bill is something that\u2019s actually relevant to my portfolios. I\u2019m the tertiary education spokesperson for the Green Party, something that aligns well with my student politics background. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EMy question is around the changes to the student loan scheme that\u2019s being proposed. Are there any kind of planned further changes that this Government is considering, and, if not, will he rule out scrapping interest-free student loans for New Zealand - based borrowers? That\u2019s something that\u2019s really concerning to us here. The interest-free student loans are a really good way to make sure that people are able to study.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThe second part of my question is that, obviously, a lot of the tertiary institutions in the country are in tough times at the moment, partly induced by the COVID economic crisis and partly induced by the border shutdowns and the lack of international students. So my question around this is: has there been any analysis or modelling done on how kind of disincentivising study might affect the further viability of our tertiary institutions, like the world-class one in Dunedin called the University of Otago? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022578bd63c2e0849bd983d2aabe6174098\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022578bd63c2e0849bd983d2aabe6174098\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got a very short\u2014probably\u2014question. Over here, we have been looking at clause 44 and we\u2019re actually quite perplexed because it seems to do two quite inconsistent things. I understand how the base rate works generally, and that you take an average of the five-year bond rate and then you add a percentage to it. I\u2019ve got the definition of \u201Cbase interest rate\u201D from the Student Loan Scheme Act in front of me, and it notes that you add 0.74 of a percent to the rate to get the actual base rate. But clause 44(2) says, firstly, to replace \u201C0.74\u201D with \u201C1.74\u201D, and that makes sense as you get a bit more money for the Government there. But then, in the very next subclause, it says to replace \u201C1.74\u201D with \u201C0.74\u201D, and \u201C1.74\u201D doesn\u2019t appear in the definition section. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, unless the Minister is doing a little circle and replacing it and then un-replacing it, it actually seems to be a bit of an Alice-in-Wonderland nonsense provision. It may be that it\u2019s just a drafting error because the Minister\u2019s been under a bit of pressure and this is a bit rushed and hasn\u2019t been given the scrutiny that perhaps it should be having in a select committee, but it\u2019s actually a really simple question. Is it a drafting error, or, if it\u2019s not a drafting error, can the Minister explain where the \u201C1.74\u201D is in the definition in section 4(1) that he\u2019s replacing with \u201C0.74\u201D, because, for the life of me, I can\u2019t see it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f88accb454874604ab69a2a34bb5713e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f88accb454874604ab69a2a34bb5713e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have some questions for the Minister of Revenue around the research and development (R\u00A0\u0026amp;\u00A0D) tax incentive in clauses 41, 42, and 43 in this part of the bill. Thank you for the explanation that the Minister gave us. One of the things that I can\u2019t find in any of the documentation that\u2019s been supplied to the House is the size of the problem we\u2019re looking to solve here. Obviously, there would be instances where a subsidiary company was carrying out the research activities, but the tax return was filed in the name of a parent company. I\u2019d be interested to know the number of companies where this has been in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI notice there is a retrospective element to these clauses, as well, which is unusual. It is unusual for tax legislation to contain retrospective clauses. My understanding from the legislation\u2014and I\u2019d like the Minister to confirm and perhaps explain the rationale why\u2014is that these actually can be corrected back to the 2021-22 tax year, which is unusual. Would the Minister please give us an indication of the size of what they\u2019re expecting to be the\u00A0corrected tax returns from those tax years that have already occurred to be, and also whether or not the Minister took any further advice around the research and development tax incentive (RDTI) in terms of subsidiary companies and parent companies in respect of\u00A0eligibility and in terms of whether or not it was a multinational company that had established an R \u0026amp; D subsidiary here in New Zealand that was carrying out the activities\u2014whether that has thrown up any issues. I\u2019m interested. I was one of the Ministers that helped\u00A0put together the RDTI and these were all questions we had, so I\u00A0would be interested to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I am interested to know is whether, in any way, any of the policy advice on the provisions here is also connected to another measure that is contained in the summary of initiatives for the Budget, albeit as a footnote\u2014that is, the scrapping of the in-year payments loan that was introduced in March\u00A02023. That in-year payments loan on the RTDI was introduced by way of enabling small businesses and supporting smaller businesses so that they wouldn\u2019t have to wait for the end of the tax filing year to receive the revenue that they could recycle back into their business. It was a workaround in terms of how we could get cash back into those businesses before that time. It says that the temporary in-year payment loan was introduced to improve cash-flow performing businesses by providing a loan while businesses waited. The footnote goes on to say that it\u2019s a temporary mechanism with a permanent solution providing in-year payments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo, in preparing this amendment, I wondered whether the Minister had got further advice around what that more permanent solution would look like, and what a time line for ensuring that we are supporting our smaller businesses to be able to conduct research and development activities would look like. I think that that is something that around this House\u2014all sides of it\u2014all parties would agree is important: that we are supporting others than just our largest businesses to be able to conduct that most important work of innovation in the form of research and development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt says that there are administrative complexities and there\u2019s low take-up of the scheme. I wonder if the Minister could advise the committee what the take-up of that scheme was like and, if they have done further policy work, what any take-up of a more developed and more permanent scheme would look like. The Minister is quite correct in the footnote that occurs in the summary of initiatives that it was only ever intended to be temporary, so I look forward to hearing about what more permanent solutions may be put in play. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d12255b2d6054b60bc0855313d3de115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d12255b2d6054b60bc0855313d3de115\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much to the members for those questions. I\u2019ll start with the research and development tax credit question. My officials advise me that it is less than 10 taxpayers who are potentially caught within that. The fiscal consequence of remediation for those taxpayers as a result of this change is probably less than $10 million in terms of fiscal implication. I don\u2019t have any operational detail in terms of what the nature of those taxpayers are, but that\u2019s the scale of size, and the reality is that the change that we\u2019re making, I think, is sensible and pragmatic for the reality of making errors in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the broader policy questions around the research and development tax credit and the role which it plays are not confined and relevant, necessarily, to this aspect of the bill. But more broadly, obviously, it\u2019s an area that we\u2019re having an ongoing review on because it is an important aspect in terms of our broader economic growth agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe question raised by the Hon Duncan Webb in regards to I think it was clause 44(2) and (3) in terms of the \u201Cbase interest rate\u201D definition aspects: simply, Duncan Webb, what we\u2019re just reflecting there is that the change that we\u2019re proposing is only for five years. So, in effect, it will come in and then it will come out, and when I\u2019m saying that, I\u2019m referring to the 1 percent increase. Hence why you\u2019ve got two aspects of definition there that flow through. It allows the reality of the five-year implementation to revert back to what it was before we make that subsequent change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00220ada272b6e2f496586be7da74bb25652\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ada272b6e2f496586be7da74bb25652\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to take my first call in relation to this part of this important bill. I am interested in the Minister\u2019s last response to that question about the five-year period\u2014and I know that some colleagues will have some further questions on that\u2014because I can\u2019t, for myself, see how replacing the exact same section with two different things works, and I don\u2019t see in the changes that the Minister is implementing the five-year change. I appreciate that the Income Tax Act is a complex Act, and no doubt we\u2019ll have some more questions on that, but I think it is really important that we figure out how that works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI do want to speak about student loan interest, and I do have an amendment on the Table in respect of the clauses that we were just discussing\u2014clause 44(2). But perhaps\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014depending on whether there is, in fact, some issue with that clause, maybe I may need to amend my amendment. But, essentially, the questions I have for the Minister are around the policy decision to decide to charge New Zealanders overseas with student loans additional interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI know that having interest-free student loans in New Zealand is not a cost-neutral thing. It does cost the Government money. It\u2019s about the choices that the Government chooses to invest in, and so I was just wondering why the Government decided that this particular group of borrowers, who are already paying a much higher rate of interest on their student loan, should in fact have a higher interest rate. So my amendment to clause 44(2) is really to try and keep a change in scope. I could have said that I don\u2019t think we should charge interest at all for overseas borrowers, which is a policy decision. I\u00A0understand why there\u2019s a distinction, because, obviously, we want to provide an incentive for people to come back to New Zealand, but the amendment that I\u2019ve put forward is really to try and keep it in scope but to remove the Government\u2019s proposed policy intent to add that additional 1 percent of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe other issue that I wanted to cover\u2014which isn\u2019t 100 percent clear from the documentation surrounding this\u2014is this. In fact, the increase in interest actually applies to New Zealand - based borrowers too, when they are late with their payments, and this is a bit concerning, I think. In a way, it\u2019s possibly more concerning than the increase in interest rate compared with the overseas borrowers, and that\u2019s because for people who are late on their student loan payments, the reason that they would be late, I can imagine, would be due to financial hardship, due to being in a difficult financial position, or due to the payments that they are required to make on their student loan once they earn above the threshold being too onerous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s already, as I was able to research quickly, quite a high interest rate. I think, for 2024-25, it was 7.3 percent\u2014quite a high interest rate in these terms. If you were to get that type of interest rate, I think you\u2019d be quite happy with that return, but I\u2019m just wondering why the Government and why the Minister would decide to do that for people who are obviously in a struggling financial position. They\u2019ve taken the decision to get a student loan, they\u2019ve done what the Government says\u2014and we\u2019ve heard from this Government that education is the great equaliser\u2014they\u2019ve participated in education, and they\u2019ve got a loan. Presumably, that education is benefiting both them, their family, and their community. They are unable to make their student loan repayments for whatever reason. Maybe they\u2019re self-employed, while, often, people who are in employment have\u00A0regular deductions made by their employer and are more unlikely to be in a position of not having to make those student loan repayments. So, for whatever reason, they\u2019re in financial difficulty. Why are we adding to their burden by increasing their interest rate\u00A0on\u00A0their student loan when, really, they\u2019ve done exactly what both this Government and previous Governments have wanted them to do? They\u2019ve bettered themselves through education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a cost of living situation that\u2019s very tough for people at the moment, and it seems to me that with this change, we\u2019re making matters worse. So I wondered about the advice the Minister took on that. I wondered if he could outline the policy intent for that. We know that there\u2019s tough financial considerations, but for this particular group of people, they\u2019ve bettered themselves, they\u2019ve taken on education, and they\u2019re obviously in a tough time, and we\u2019re making things harder for them. So if the Minister could explain to me the rationale for that, that would be good. Also, if he could let me know, having considered those points that I\u2019ve raised, whether he would consider supporting my amendment to clause 44(2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228cb2a49891924e98976aebae84083302\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cb2a49891924e98976aebae84083302\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to take my first call on this part and also giving us the opportunity to speak on this part in lieu of select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, my question to the Minister is on clause 44, and particularly in combination with the explanatory note on the change to the student loan - based interest rate calculation, because we do not have any form of regulatory impact statement on this. What I want to home in on is the phrasing of \u201Cto partially cover the loss in value of the scheme due to recent high inflation.\u201D So the key point of my question to the Minister is around the modelling that has been done in relation to the amount of overseas and late student loans that would be collected as a part of this increase in the interest rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of the research that I have had the opportunity to look at as our overseas New Zealander spokesperson, the fact is that over the last 10 years, we have seen student debt increase and the interest rate fluctuate from anything from 2.8 percent up to 6 percent. However, in terms of the sum of the student loan that has been collected, that has not increased. What we see instead, however, is that more overseas students are struggling to pay their loan because of the interest. They have such a high interest rate that they\u2019re able to pay the interest but not the principal of that loan, to the point that in 2022\u2014and this is something that we have to, unfortunately, find in a hurry because we\u2019re under urgency\u2014over 75 percent, roughly, of overseas borrowers are overdue in terms of the payment of their loan, to the total sum of debt of possibly more than $2 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, again, the question is: what modelling has been done to show that this is, indeed, going to be collected, rather than it being a way of just simply punishing overseas New Zealanders who may be based in and working in countries where they do not earn a high enough salary to be able to pay off their student loan based here, in Aotearoa? So that is a question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn addition, in terms of the Cabinet\u2019s own announcement by the Minister for tertiary education, she has said that, taken together, these initiatives are a sensible approach to tertiary education funding that reward hard-working students. But what we see here is that Inland Revenue is also moving into having more options to actually penalise these students who are going to be coming home even for holidays or, potentially, if their family members are sick\u2014penalising them and, potentially, even detaining them at the airport. So, again, as the overseas New Zealander spokesperson, my second question is: when this was done, was there any consultation done with our New Zealanders\u2014with our own people overseas\u2014when they decided to increase the interest rate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo my two questions are: number one, what was the modelling that was done around this that suggests that we will be able to collect more money in order to balance that loss in value of the scheme; and number two is whether there has been any consultation that was done with overseas New Zealanders on the impact that this will have for them in terms of the increase in the interest rate, and whether that will affect their ability to come back home? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9d35ac6b6c54348b4a262330f0bf5aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9d35ac6b6c54348b4a262330f0bf5aa\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Unsurprisingly, with the Budget process, we don\u2019t consult with the public before we release the Budget. So, in this case, we didn\u2019t consult with student loan borrowers before making the announcements yesterday, but that\u2019s no different to any Budget process in that regard. The key challenge that we are reflecting here is the change in value due to the implications of inflation. We\u2019ve time-bound that. We haven\u2019t made it a permanent difference, so we are going to look to reverse that back to the status quo within a five-year period, and that simply just reflects the uniqueness of both the inflationary environment and also the implications around the interest rate on that loan. That is a scenario that we haven\u2019t seen play through historically, but it is our point of view that we do want to revert back to the status quo in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI think what is interesting in a broader context, which is slightly outside of here, but in terms of your having asked about student loan, nearly 90 percent of that outstanding student loan debt is owed by overseas borrowers. The significance of the outstanding debt owed by taxpayers which we inherited in October is significantly higher than where it was in 2017, and student loans are an area in which we\u2019ve also seen significant growth. Hence why, in the Budget, we\u2019ve allocated $116 million to increase enforcement and compliance to collect the money that is owed to the Government, because every dollar that we don\u2019t collect is a dollar that potentially needs to be found from somewhere else. That is the work, and within that allocation of compliance funding, there is specific money ring-fenced for targeting the collection of money that is owed in regards to student loans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00228e6c4e5f8d3c489c83b0b09a6b50b29d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e6c4e5f8d3c489c83b0b09a6b50b29d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is my first call on this part, and the first opportunity to discuss Simon Watts\u2019 big new OE tax. It is the tax that will apply to overseas young New Zealanders who have gone off for a year to work in London in the pub, people who have gone overseas to Australia to get some work experience, or it is someone who might be continuing on with their Master\u2019s studies. They will be penalised by what the Minister has introduced in this part\u2014Part 5\u00A0of the bill\u2014which we are debating today, and I thank him. I thank that Minister for engaging so fulsomely with our questions today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHe has answered, very helpfully, my colleague Lawrence Xu-Nan and so he has blown that wide open for me to ask him plenty of questions about Part 5, and I will do so now. From 2025, overseas New Zealanders will be penalised and charged extra for their student loan debt because of this change, and those returning to New Zealand will face penalties at the border for just trying to come home. For visiting their mum, for coming home and seeing their friends and family, for attending a wedding\u2014they will be stopped when they try to come into the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere is, in fact, extra money for it in the Budget for compliance enforcement costs, and why is that? I want to ask the Minister the first question I have here, which is: why is that debt, which he disclosed in his previous answers as being 90 percent of the outstanding student loan debt, with overseas borrowers? Is that because the enforcement powers that the IRD has are not adequate to actually recover the overseas debt owed by overseas borrowers? Is the Minister aware that according to the IRD\u2019s annual report for June\u00A02023, it received just 198 payments, totalling $16,421, from overseas borrowers? Is the Minister aware that the IRD cannot recover that debt from overseas borrowers, and is this a cynical measure to tell young Kiwis who have gone overseas that they are the rule-breakers, whilst the rest of us continue to pay and do not receive the tax relief that he says is going to occur from this saving?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister: has he considered the effect on New Zealand\u2019s broader economy? When we make it harder, we make it harder with these provisions for young New Zealanders who have done the work, who have trained in our universities, who have upskilled, and who have gone overseas for further work experience to come back into New Zealand and invest in New Zealand, to make homes for themselves, to get jobs in our local economy, and to bring their skills home. Is this just one more barrier to those businesses that are crying out for skilled people to get young New Zealanders back into the country? Minister, I look forward to the answers to those five questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa64a2460ac847a4a54ff2103602cdaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa64a2460ac847a4a54ff2103602cdaf\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, for allowing me to make a call in response to that question. Look, there\u2019s two aspects here at play, and we\u2019ll cover the first aspect relevant to this section of the bill, which is the increasing of the interest rate. The purpose of increasing the interest rate for a period of five years is to partially cover the loss in value of the scheme as a result of inflation. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing, that\u2019s why we\u2019re doing it, and, as I said, it is a temporary adjustment to deal with the loss in value and that will achieve that outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the second portion, on this side of the House, we make no apologies for the majority of New Zealanders who pay their taxes and do the right thing. What we have invested in in regards to increasing compliance and enforcement costs is to target those people that are not meeting their responsibilities. We do not make any apology for the fact that if you owe money and you\u2019re not meeting your responsibilities, then the Inland Revenue will use their powers available to them to collect that money, because\u2014guess\u00A0what!\u2014a dollar that they collect is a dollar that we don\u2019t need to find from somewhere else. It\u2019s a dollar owed to this Government, and it is not appropriate for the majority of Kiwis to pay their fair share and to have a very small element who don\u2019t to be able to get away with that. That is not the way in which we see it, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re making the changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228bc140fde5ae44bd96fc652719b8a982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bc140fde5ae44bd96fc652719b8a982\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m flabbergasted at the fact that we\u2019re talking about penalising our own people overseas who are trying to gain international experience\u2014which I\u2019m sure is something that the governing parties are interested in\u2014and then bringing it back home. But we are now creating this barrier for them to come back home. Sometimes I do wonder about the Government\u2019s priorities, but this is my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThere are two parts to this particular section. There is the first part that we\u2019re looking at, which is the increase of the rate by 1 percent for five years\u2014which we have said, but five years makes a lot of difference; it\u2019s the difference between whether you\u2019re eligible to vote or not\u2014for the interest on the student loan for overseas New Zealanders. However, it also means there is a second part, which is the increase on the late payment by 1 percent. So that\u2019s 2 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the question to the Minister\u2014and this is genuine. I would like to get some clarification from the Minister for those overseas New Zealanders, which I have mentioned. Currently, over 70 percent of overseas New Zealanders are unable to make their payment, which, again, would then become a late payment. In these kinds of cases, would these overseas New Zealanders get penalised by 1 additional percent as the base\u00A0of\u00A0their student loan payment on top of that an extra 1 percent as part of their late payment fee? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIs it going to be the case that those who are unable to pay\u2014that\u2019s more than 70\u00A0percent, and we heard that. The Minister has mentioned before that over 90 percent of the late payment that we\u2019re seeing right now is from overseas New Zealanders. So, in these cases, when we have this incredible number of people who are unable to make their payment due to a variety of the reasons I have mentioned, because of the fact that maybe they are\u00A0studying overseas or they are gaining their higher education overseas. I can say to you\u00A0that\u00A0in my own profession, while I was doing my Masters and my PhD, I was encouraged to go overseas for my PhD because if you want work in academia, apparently you need to have that overseas experience, and this is something that you see in academia in general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFor these people who will not be earning that much of an income and, in fact, who will sometimes be paying exorbitant fees overseas to international institutes in order to take up post-graduate education, or if they\u2019re in a precarious employment situation or they might be overseas looking after a family member and so are unable to take work, are they being penalised for 1 percent of the base interest rate, and yet, when they are late on their payment, they are being penalised by an extra 1 percent for their late payment on top of that? So if the Minister could provide that clarification, that would be great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d12fcabbba8944e997012056eb343189\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d12fcabbba8944e997012056eb343189\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Well, we\u2019re nearly there, aren\u2019t we\u2014we\u2019re nearly there, aren\u2019t we? You can hear it on this side of the Chamber\u2014hey, we are nearly there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ELook, in regards to the question that was asked about the payment of debt, IRD have a wide range of options available for those that are in hardship, who genuinely have the inability to pay due to their financial circumstances. We are not talking about those individuals; we are talking about those individuals who simply make the decision \u201CI do not want to pay my student loan.\u201D, and for those individuals, it is absolutely fair and reasonable that there should be enforcement and compliance to ensure that the Government gets back the money that it is owed. That\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe change in regards to the percentage is dealing with the value of the scheme, and that\u2019s what will effect that change. But do not confuse or conflate the reality of these people that potentially are in genuine hardship cases. There are procedures and protocol around that. We are talking about a large number of people that genuinely are choosing to say, \u201CI am not going to pay this back.\u201D That is not appropriate, and that is not taking personal responsibility for the fact that they owe this Government money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd684e2d14d54a558214b0e9e3d124c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd684e2d14d54a558214b0e9e3d124c0\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do want to ask the Minister a number of questions, in relation to both clauses 41 and 42. But, actually, since we\u2019re on student loans, I want to go back in response to some of the terminology that the Minister is using around the value of the loan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI understand why the Minister wants to increase the base interest rate, for example. It\u2019s an incentive, I\u2019m guessing, for the Minister to have those offshore borrowers to pay back the loan faster. I\u2019m guessing that\u2019s the policy purpose of this. My question, though, as the Minister refers to it as the \u201Cvalue of the loan\u201D\u2014now, that\u2019s quite a wide term, and for student loan purposes, you can have the fair value of the loan or you can have the impairment value of the loan, and I think the impairment value is what the Minister is referring to when he refers to the \u201Cvalue of the loan\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAn impairment value is, basically, how much student loan borrowers owe the Government, how much the Government thinks it is going to collect from them, and, basically, you deduct one from the other and that\u2019s where we come to the impairment value of the loan. Or if the Minister is actually talking about the fair value of the loan, he\u2019s talking about the total of the student loan asset book and how that sits on the Government\u2019s accounts. Just for the sake of this particular question, it would be, I would suspect, a contingent liability or it is a contingent asset. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo my quick question to the Minister\u2014and I\u2019ll take another call after the Minister provides me a response to this\u2014is: when he refers to the value of the loan, is he talking about the fair value of the student loan, which is, basically, the full amount that is on the student loan books themselves, which is on the Crown accounts\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2021317ecde476c9ba84f13d4b15b63\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t matter\u2014it\u2019s not in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa59815814454d26a3c9918005ae3dd4\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or is he talking about the impairment value of the loan? This is in relation to the bill, as the member on the other side of the Chamber has asked, because the Minister referred to it in relation to the value of the\u2014which is why he\u2019s talking about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0c179d55d254b0db6af5927876e9dd9\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Unless there\u2019s an amendment, it\u2019s not in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eac6e41cc57b413d8eb31b0f189db8b8\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the members on the other side are saying, \u201CWhat has this got to do with the bill?\u201D Well, clause 44 looks at a base interest rate increase in relation to the student loan. So if the members on the other side want to take a call as to how they want to explain fair value versus impairment value, I\u2019m happy for the other members in the Chamber to keep going, but the interjections are actually providing me with more questions for the Minister. So I thank the other members of the House for asking and interjecting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s go again. Clause 44(1) says, \u201CThis section amends the Student Loan Scheme Act 2011.\u201D Subclause (2): \u201CIn section 4(1), definition of \u2018base interest rate\u2019, replace \u20180.74\u2019 with \u20181.74\u2019\u00A0\u201D. Now, if the member wants me to read it again, what I could do is actually look at the Student Loan Scheme Act and have a look at the base rate that\u2019s in there. Or,\u00A0if the member would like to continue with his interjections, we can continue with my call while I\u2019m waiting for the Minister to have a look at this, because, again, the question around the fair value of the loan and the size of it on the Crown\u2019s accounts is a valid question to be asking, which is why I\u2019m asking the Minister: is this the impairment value of the loan or the fair value, when he speaks in relation to his responses to other members on this side of the Chamber about the value of the loan? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2a12a3737fd40cc82430cb29c538252\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2a12a3737fd40cc82430cb29c538252\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a follow-up question for the Minister around the research and development tax incentive, and I thank the Minister for his very useful and informative answers that he gave to my earlier contribution, but my question is in response to clause 43(2). I asked the Minister about the rationale and the reasons why it is that there\u2019s a retrospective element to this clause of the bill, and the Minister hasn\u2019t answered on that, so I just would like it confirmed. Clause 43(2)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c543601da57843dc97c9beebcbd06343\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Well, only if you ask good questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f04c69a096e240b99a1c08b713c54cc0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I am asking questions; if you\u2019d like to take a call, Mr Brown, I suggest you do. In terms of the retrospective element of clause 43(2), the Minister has told us there are probably only around 10 companies that are in this situation of having the wrong filing name in their return. My question for the Minister is whether he took advice on whether there were administrative fixes to this, either by officials within Inland Revenue or whether there was ministerial discretion that could be used, because what I\u2019m understanding is that this is a legislative fix that\u2019s taking the time of the House for 10 or fewer companies. What advice was he given by officials and what options did he consider when making this policy decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t disagree with what we\u2019re trying to fix. There will be companies, and only literally a handful of them, that have filed under the wrong name and that should be eligible for this tax rebate, and we\u2019re fully in support of that. But I\u2019m just trying to understand why it was that the Minister opted to insert clause 43(2) into this legislation, rather than going for an administrative fix.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc1e12d2aad44523bd87f66e5790658c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e12d2aad44523bd87f66e5790658c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. In response to that question in regard to the considerations: absolutely, we explored all options that were available that would avoid the need to have to undertake a legislative change. But official advice through to me was clear that the only way in which this could be effected was through legislative change, and we didn\u2019t have the options around administrative change or any other discretion within the commissioner\u2019s power. So we are where we are, and we did kick the tyres in regards to that to make sure that this was the only pathway, because there are plenty of other things that we can be doing. But that\u2019s the reality of where we landed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ETo the Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2019 question in terms of the value, we are reflecting, when we talk about increasing the value of the scheme, the fair value of the scheme at a Crown accounts level. So, in effect, the immediate effect of changing that will increase that value of the overarching book. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022a970bdffe0f14edfa096cf59b937fdea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a970bdffe0f14edfa096cf59b937fdea\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got a couple of questions for the Minister around both the R\u00A0\u0026amp;\u00A0D tax incentive credit and also the student loan scheme part of this bill. Specifically to both clauses 42(2) and 43(2), with regard to the retrospectivity of this bill, I don\u2019t think the Minister has answered the question around why it applies to the years 2021-22 and onwards as well. So I was quite interested in that, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EAlso, thanks to the Minister for some of the clarification at the start of this process on Part 5, but, in that, the Minister mentioned that this was one such mistake that is often made. Also, thank you for clarifying the number of companies, I guess, that have fallen into this or who have made this mistake in the past. I was wondering whether there had been any advice on other such mistakes that might be made by companies with regard to this, and, if so, what some of the errors might have been. I was also wondering whether the Minister has received any advice on the potential of fixing some of those mistakes through this legislative process, and, if not, why not. So I\u2019m really interested in that. But, as my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods has said, we don\u2019t necessarily oppose this particular change, given that it applies to a small number of companies and will actually make things potentially a little bit easier for them if a mistake has been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWith regard to clause 44, with the Student Loan Scheme Act 2011 being amended, I do agree with some of the points that have been made by colleagues on this side of the Chamber in terms of the additional pressure that this is likely to place on overseas-based students and what the implications may be in terms of them returning. But the questions that I have for the Minister with regard to this are reasonably specific. I think many of us will have people we know, whether it\u2019s friends or family members, who may be in this position and are based overseas, and this OE tax, as Arena Williams quite aptly named it, is going to affect them. So I\u2019d be really keen to know how this change is going to be communicated to people who live overseas currently. This is going to impact them. For many, if it\u2019s a late payment, it could be because they are already struggling financially. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo, firstly, how will this be communicated, given that the people whom it impacts are likely to be based in various parts of the world? Secondly, what advice has the Minister received as to whether this change is actually also going to have any impact whatsoever on their behaviour? I\u2019m sure there has been modelling done in terms of how much will be made through this. I think it\u2019s pretty clear that the five-year period is to cover an increase in costs, and I think the Minister has mentioned that already. But what modelling has been done on the impact of this change or this increase in cost and late payment in interest charged, and so on and so forth, on changing the behaviour of late payments? Was there any advice on that, and, if so, what could that be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThose are largely the questions that I have. I\u2019m just really interested in some of the R\u00A0\u0026amp;\u00A0D tax incentive questions around some of those other mistakes that the Minister might have received some advice on; if there are any others, why those weren\u2019t included in this legislative fix; and also some of that communication around the student loan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00222d0ef9ed3a414374b81d533f71a796d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d0ef9ed3a414374b81d533f71a796d1\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The reason why I popped up to the Table was just to check if I had missed, perhaps, a regulatory impact statement for the student loan changes. So I apologise to the Minister of Revenue if there is one, but I couldn\u2019t find one on the Table. So my question carries on. Now that the Minister has clarified that it\u2019s the fair value of the loan, and because there is no regulatory impact statement and I can\u2019t see the supplementary estimates on the Table, in case that was there\u2014maybe I should have a look afterwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBut my question for the Minister is: what is the estimated increase in the fair value of the loan as a result of this particular change in clause 44? The reason why I ask the Minister for this\u2014and if he can provide just some information around the workings\u2014is that the student loan valuation model does reflect current student loan policy and some macroeconomic assumptions. So, obviously, the Minister is changing some of the student loan policy by increasing the interest rate by 1 percent, and, obviously, the macroeconomic assumptions behind this will be quite different. In particular, that\u2019s because the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update yesterday set out what the macroeconomic assumptions were, obviously, for the Budget around lower productivity, unemployment, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBut because this is applicable to overseas borrowers, I\u2019m just wanting to understand the macroeconomic assumptions and factors that the Minister or his officials took into account in relation to this, and what that means around the estimated increase, because the fair value is quite sensitive to changes to a number of underlying assumptions, and I know it\u2019s quite difficult to assess it, which is why it\u2019s quite a big undertaking for there to be a valuation of the student loan scheme, and that valuation of the student loan scheme is actually quite an exercise for the actuary that has to do it. But some of the judgments include the future income levels of overseas-based borrowers, so I\u2019m keen to understand the Minister\u2019s reasoning as to how they got to the estimated increase and what the assumption was around their judgments for the future income levels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe repayment behaviour: so this is quite an important factor, because if you\u2019re going to be increasing the base interest rate, what assumptions have been put into the estimated increase in the fair value of the scheme, given that repayment behaviour may be disincentivised for overseas-based borrowers to pay this because the interest rate has gone up, and inflation, not just here in New Zealand but overseas, is higher. So what is that repayment behaviour? How does that interact when you\u2019ve increased the base rate here by 1\u00A0percent, and, obviously, there are the macroeconomic economic factors that I\u2019ve talked about, such as inflation and discount rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really keen to understand that from the Minister, because there is no regulatory impact statement. It might be difficult to find it within the Supplementary Estimates. It could be an evaluation for the student loan scheme that is yet to come, and I understand that is a big undertaking by the actuaries who have to do that for the Crown accounts. What is the estimated increase in the fair value of the loan? Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00228b82db9ea95d4ec9a9add340ae332949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b82db9ea95d4ec9a9add340ae332949\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The fair value increase as a result of the change in the interest rate is $20.5 million, and that will flow through as a result of the increase by 1 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EPrior questions in regards to the increase in interest on loans and having it be referred to as a tax is simply just not the case. When you borrow money, you pay interest, and when you increase the interest rate on that loan to pay someone else, that\u2019s not a tax. So, just for clarity, a couple of the members were sort of drawing that conclusion, and it\u2019s not one based on fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00222e4a6448fd904855b382cb3eb38923a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e4a6448fd904855b382cb3eb38923a9\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022af6d7c9a3150493a8a1b8341c011ee7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af6d7c9a3150493a8a1b8341c011ee7d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to put that question, because I think there is still some detail that could be extracted, but it\u2019s getting quite thin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022abc4f1a28c1e470280cc064c58c51811\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abc4f1a28c1e470280cc064c58c51811\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. An area of importance to the health sector is the number of highly trained people that we have working overseas. Many of our young doctors undertake training overseas doing fellowships, as I did, in other jurisdictions in order to bolster their qualifications before ultimately coming back home to New Zealand. Just last week, we met the president of the New Zealand Medical Students\u2019 Association. She reported she had $140,000 of student loan debt before she even graduated. Now it would be normal or even desirable for people in her situation to spend some of her training overseas, and we\u2019re learning today that additional burdens of repayment are going to be put on those young doctors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister what modelling has been done and what advice has been received on the likelihood of our talented young people returning home when they face higher penalties in terms of student loan debt repayments, should they do so? We have over 1,000, or perhaps 1300 specialist vacancies in our hospitals and we have multiple junior doctor vacancies at our hospitals, and part of what\u2019s contributing to the junior doctors being on strike at the moment is the high workloads that they face. For these reasons, I want to know about any impacts on, particularly, strategically significant workforces that this student loan additional repayment burden is going to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002234af26d12efd4c4ca19d179de905dd75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234af26d12efd4c4ca19d179de905dd75\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019m glad the member Ayesha Verrall has realised that one of the opportunities that we do have is to encourage our doctors back to this country, and one of the good things about the student loan scheme is that when they come back to New Zealand from overseas and have been here longer than six months, they don\u2019t pay any interest on their loan. So there\u2019s a really good incentive for the health system in terms of workforce to come back to New Zealand, set up roots, and work here in the health system, because you won\u2019t pay any interest on your student loan when you\u2019re back home here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022605a17a3362143d7b5d9e47e34121fee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022605a17a3362143d7b5d9e47e34121fee\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m looking forward to the Minister answering my questions about IRD\u2019s powers to recover what he has said is 90 percent of the student loan debt, and the questions of my colleague the Hon Barbara Edmonds about the IRD\u2019s ability to do this and whether he has sought advice on this, because given his last answer, we must be expecting a huge uptick in IRD\u2019s ability to reclaim that debt, given that in the financial year ending June\u00A02023, they only managed to recover $16,000 of it. He must have some new tricks up his sleeve, and I\u2019m really interested in him answering the questions that I put to him, which he hasn\u2019t answered for the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut I want to ask a new line of questions to the Minister. The first is: does he agree with his colleague the Hon Penny Simmonds, who said on 30\u00A0May that \u201CThe late payment interest for overseas and New Zealand based borrowers\u201D\u2014and New Zealand - based borrowers\u2014\u201Cwill also increase by 1 percent.\u201D The second question, of five that I have about that, is where that is in the bill. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc63410de9cc46dc8fe949d8636bda8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc63410de9cc46dc8fe949d8636bda8e\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b11f6bd353644a108ac01a27a25b9f33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b11f6bd353644a108ac01a27a25b9f33\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that debate on this question now\u00A0close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec712b49bb054d529a34e39b8c4c12a0\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262124ec3928f41c5b6e1b051775b686c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Those of that opinion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bedc2afc9b5448395e8aa05c27377ce\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229debc4443aff490c83778b32be8404e9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014will say \u201CAye\u201D; to the contrary \u201CNo\u201D. When a vote is under way, we do that in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f8828c9d3a844dc88fd9331825a3e04\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been calling point of order, sorry, Madam Chair. It\u2019s just that we have an amendment that hasn\u2019t been mentioned at all by my colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287e28705092a4b02aa2bac23597b57ad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re putting the vote now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f6179e1eab224d8eb95ac3e35a10d115\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00229610626f7adb44248732250366fe1bb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229610626f7adb44248732250366fe1bb9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 amendments to clause 44 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fc1c4a8580e14f0d90742517bf4a2e8c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00226920364d2705431e82d0293cbe8f5c37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226920364d2705431e82d0293cbe8f5c37\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s amendment to clause 44(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228cc15f20bf8143cda5c1c2bc96207f47\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002299381ed4d4bb49739ab2903a3bb7c8fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299381ed4d4bb49739ab2903a3bb7c8fc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to delete clause 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f8e0b6023d724adc92e0aea79618a824\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00227ddc950f1c874bd48c7c6cfd562bff01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ddc950f1c874bd48c7c6cfd562bff01\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 amendment to delete clause 44 is out of order as being the same in substance as an amendment previously not agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228d401a1102c44b64afff8bf92d37bab2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec84f1ba0a624df99e22103b1ae46b23\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00222d0c1d9a431e44b8868ebec37ec5d6bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d0c1d9a431e44b8868ebec37ec5d6bc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on clauses 1 and 2, the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u002206474ca53ed44bf1a5d7fc2799df57c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206474ca53ed44bf1a5d7fc2799df57c1\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00225de458ae2b134689a70a22bc18a960fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225de458ae2b134689a70a22bc18a960fd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just find that extraordinary that the first thing a member of the Government can do is stand up and seek a closure without giving the Opposition so much as a look-in. It just reflects very poorly on this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn fact, there is a matter that I wanted to just raise with the Minister around the commencement, because the commencement, in fact, is quite a complex piece of legislation. It\u2019s quite unusual. Clause 2(7) and (8) both relate to section 44(2) of the Student Loan Scheme Act. It\u2019s a really awkward\u2014and I actually raised this with the Minister and he sort of batted me away by saying it\u2019s about it being five years long, and I had to dig around and actually find what he meant by that. And what he actually meant\u2014and it would have been helpful if he\u2019d been a bit clearer\u2014is that clause 44(2) commences on 1\u00A0April\u00A02025 and then clause 3, in fact, which commences on 1\u00A0April\u00A02030, which is\u00A0an extremely long commencement date, has the effect of returning to the status quo ex-ante.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve got a number of questions around that. The first is: why on earth\u2014I mean, what kind of bizarre drafting is that? I know that the IRD draft its own bills, but, firstly, a commencement that is more than five years away is not good legislative practice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022035d3c39a7c84afb8420de811ed827ff\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: OK, let\u2019s go, let\u2019s have a look at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238290eaaeacb4cb98cdc12c0d4a3613c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: No, have a look at the legislative design\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288cca91f702d435d8c568e511cb8b2f7\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a leadership tie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022904617a4d44d4477a20016208dfa9915\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Meager, if you\u2019ve got something to say, just stand up and take an actual call. The fact of the matter is it\u2019s very poor legislative practice to have an amendment that\u2014and the other thing is, you know, we were genuinely perplexed by this, and it\u2019s a strange bit of drafting where you actually have to cross-refer to the commencement to understand it. And it would be very useful to have some sign-posting going on there with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI guess the other question is: why is it that he\u2019s chosen this five-year period? In our view, on this side of the Chamber, we don\u2019t think the cost of our student loans should be increased for our overseas New Zealanders. But, at the same time, why are you time-binding it? Because, in fact, it would be a much easier thing to do to manage this in a quite different way\u2014leave it there until you need to revisit it, because it may well be that in five years\u2019 time, the rate is adequately set at 1.74, and that, in fact, the policy reasons for the change, at least in your mind, still exist. So why is it that you\u2019ve got this very strange change and then repeal in the same\u2014it\u2019s, essentially, a kind of sunset clause. It would have been much easier, in section 44(2), to actually sit there and say that, for five years, the rate is 1.74, after which it reverts to 0.74. That would be a much cleaner and tidier way to do it, rather than actually having this kind of circular framework there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, in terms of that commencement, I\u2019m not sure I\u2019ve ever seen anything which does an effective repeal by having two commencements for different subsections\u2014it seems a very extraordinary way to do it. So, as I take my seat, I\u2019d be very interested to know the Minister\u2019s response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002224cf37d053c140908a4c556b327b4b6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224cf37d053c140908a4c556b327b4b6c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Look, I won\u2019t indulge on why that member in particular is generally perplexed\u2014probably\u00A0something that\u2019s outside of the scope of the bill, but it probably would be worth further consideration at another point. The changes in regards to clause 2 in terms of the\u00A0commencement date are as has been outlined. There are two aspects. We are making a change to bring in a change in interest rates, which will occur on 1\u00A0April\u00A02025 in order to\u00A0increase it. And then on 1\u00A0April\u00A02030, we are reverting back and removing that 1\u00A0percent increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the overarching adjustment to deal with the increase in the interest rate is to deal with the unique timing circumstance in regards to the interest rates and the inflationary environment. On this side of the House, we are hopeful and working towards a fiscally sustainable plan that will reduce inflation, and I appreciate, again, that might not have been the case on the other side, but that is what we do think, and we do believe that in five years from now, that will provide adequate time for what we\u2019re seeing in terms of a unique circumstance to no longer be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to reducing the time of this House in the future, having that clause, in effect, revert back, avoids the need to have to come back and waste this House\u2019s time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022add199890ff34dc89fcbf312f30d37fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022add199890ff34dc89fcbf312f30d37fb\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I would like to thank the Minister of Revenue for being able to be available through this whole process. I have a question around the commencement date, and I know that we talked about it before as part of Part 5. But I want to just check in terms of the commencement date\u2014and this is clause 2. I\u2019ve got two questions. Let\u2019s start with clause 2(6), which says, \u201CSections 41, 42, and 43 come into force on 1\u00A0April\u00A02021.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister of Revenue is, I guess, two-pronged\u2014one and one. It\u2019s the retrospective nature of this clause coming in, and I guess No. 2 is more around the semantics of whether it is general practice for us to use a simple present tense in that case, and not a past tense\u2014a simple past or a present perfect. So I would like to get some clarification on that from the Minister. The second question I have is around\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201f684cbefcf4d39a837637e0061dc46\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t teach grammar in schools these days! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ff70216bbcf411e995e408221708cf7\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: My background is in linguistics\u2014I\u2019m sorry! The second question is around subclauses (7) and (8). As part of Part 5, we talked about the fact that the student loans are going to be for a five-year period. I would like to have some clarification from the Minister\u2014and, in particular, for subclause (7), where it says that it comes into force on 1\u00A0April\u00A02025\u2014on whether there has been any discussion or any modelling done on why that was pushed out to 2025, as opposed to 2024 or 2026 or any of the other dates. So clarification on those two points would be great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00221482821f04544973bf39a106229e6dd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221482821f04544973bf39a106229e6dd4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do want to speak to the commencement clause, and, in particular, I want to speak to this because\u2014well, I think we really need to understand what\u2019s going on here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe had a discussion when we were on Part 4\u2014now, Part 4 comes into force on 1\u00A0April\u00A02025, and it\u2019s the part that contains all the measures around taxes like employer superannuation contribution tax and fringe benefit tax, and so on; compared to Part 3, which comes into force on 31\u00A0July\u00A02024, and, of course, again, various clauses and things like that. There\u2019s all sorts of different dates floating around in this bill. I think, because of the complexity of all the different sorts of dates floating around in this bill, we had this quite extraordinary way of structuring the bill. And it really comes into close relief when you look at this commencement clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe bill was structured in this extraordinary way, where instead of structuring it, as is usual in a tax bill, with Part 1 dealing with amendments to the Income Tax Act, and Part 2 might be the amendments to the Tax Administration Act, and Part 3 might be\u2014all those sorts of things, which would be a pretty standard way of dealing with a tax bill, kind of thematically\u2014this bill is structured in a way I\u2019ve never seen a bill structured. It\u2019s structured according to the commencement dates. So Part 1 is all the amendments which come into force on 1\u00A0April\u00A02024. Part 2 is all the amendments which come into force on 1\u00A0July\u00A02024. Part 3 is 31\u00A0July\u00A02024. Part 4 is 1\u00A0April\u00A02025\u2014so a really interesting set of commencement dates, and a very interesting way of structuring the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, Madam Speaker, I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve seen commencement clauses for tax bills before. You\u2019ve sat in that Chair for long enough to see some tax bills go through\u2014well, in this House certainly\u2014and they are deeply, deeply complex clauses. Other members of the House will have seen tax bills as well. They are very, very complex clauses. I guess that\u2019s why this bill was structured that way. But I do want to ask the Minister, if the Minister could clarify, why not just the standard commencement clause that goes through and lists each part, part by part?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s an extraordinary way to structure a bill. It may be an effective one. Does the Minister intend to do this with future tax bills, or is it just that there\u2019s a particular reason for doing it with this tax bill, to have this very unusual way of structuring the bill itself? And it does, as I said earlier, become highlighted when we look at the commencement clause\u2014so just a word from the Minister on his intentions with respect to future tax bills and why this one was done this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022598f29af964447999fcdf446f2004d23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022598f29af964447999fcdf446f2004d23\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002297e9d9b89a5c4326a1d140d9b9d021a0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022096de1ff72da47fc828771acfc7203e0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 to insert the words \u201COE Tax\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe618f785a24424db3267b96a894ce2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe618f785a24424db3267b96a894ce2d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef97a3b129e1407095dad7761359c093\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef97a3b129e1407095dad7761359c093\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 to insert the words \u201Cbroken promises\u201D is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002268419cec08e6407fb12dd131a29b6fc8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022413e8fed176543eca3e76411c615b011\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022413e8fed176543eca3e76411c615b011\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clause 2 to adjust the commencement dates to 31\u00A0July\u00A02024, 31\u00A0October\u00A02024, 31\u00A0October\u00A02024, 31\u00A0April\u00A02027, and 31\u00A0July\u00A02040 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002290c6223ce8b54f6ea79f6726b6749fa4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002288483a60fc6a4e319dbbd74beddac702\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288483a60fc6a4e319dbbd74beddac702\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clause 2 to adjust the commencement dates to 1\u00A0July\u00A02024, 1\u00A0October\u00A02024, 1\u00A0October\u00A02024, 1\u00A0April\u00A02027, and 1\u00A0April\u00A02040 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229af66f1264bc4615b8585ac5e5d94dab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222b6742a179f04a8990b76e3460e18f4e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000603\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000604\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f55db21a4fca4338a928f8c0fb7624ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f55db21a4fca4338a928f8c0fb7624ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222fd9037b8176423588ee3d847e93654b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fd9037b8176423588ee3d847e93654b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5c977b4ec4947c7bddecd17d78bfb9f\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224b4f47649b6f4789a307351587a78e24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b4f47649b6f4789a307351587a78e24\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI want to thank the members of this House for considering and debating this bill under urgency. The high cost of living is one of the most pressing issues here in New\u00A0Zealand today, and we know that Kiwis are doing it tough. That is why this coalition Government has delivered this important Budget bill, because it delivers responsible tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders who are trying to make ends meet in the face of ever-increasing inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe bill is being considered under urgency because delivering that tax relief is a matter of urgency. Kiwis need support now more than ever, and we need to ensure that hard-working Kiwis are keeping more of what they earn. We are doing that by increasing the bottom three personal income tax thresholds, which will allow people to make sure they keep more of what they currently earn before moving into higher income tax brackets. Many New Zealanders have been pushed into higher tax brackets due to inflation and wage growth, meaning they have been paying and are paying more and a greater share of their income in tax. This is not fair. They earned that money and they should be able to keep more of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EA median-income worker\u2014the average rate that they are paying has increased from around 15 percent in 2011 to around 21 percent today. Tax rates that go up as income rises lower the real value of wage increases that people receive. This results in lower incentives to work, save, and invest over time. Without increasing the tax thresholds periodically, bracket creep occurs and financial incentives to work decline. It has been nearly 14 years since tax reduction has been provided, yet inflation has steamed ahead. This is not what we want for New Zealand and our hard-working Kiwis. So we need to take action to address this as a matter of urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThat is why we are debating these changes under urgency, and that is why the personal income tax changes and threshold changes will have effect from 31\u00A0July\u00A02024, because New Zealanders need that support now. Normally such changes would have effect from 1\u00A0April, being the beginning of the income tax year. I know that bringing that change in part-way through the year may cause inconvenience to some, but Kiwis have been waiting 14 long years for this. Every day we delay, people are slipping further and further back economically. So it is important for us to ensure that we deliver responsible tax relief for the squeezed middle sooner rather than later and waiting for the start of the next tax year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe are reducing the compliance costs and the administrative burden for this change by introducing some of those transitional measures outlined in the bill. The bill, therefore, proposes that the current tax thresholds will apply from 1\u00A0April to 30\u00A0July\u00A02024 and the proposed thresholds will apply for the remainder of the tax year. To account for the two sets of thresholds being applicable in one tax year, Inland Revenue will need to use composite rates. These are an average of the current and proposed rates and will be applied across the entire year to determine a taxpayer\u2019s annual tax liability. This will be used for Inland Revenue\u2019s end-of-year square-up calculations, which assess a taxpayer\u2019s income against the amount of tax paid over that income tax year. These changes are proposed to help reduce compliance costs associated with taxpayers in making the changes part-way through the tax year. The inconvenience of making a change part-way through the year is\u00A0outweighed by the benefits they provide to people who are working hard to make ends\u00A0meet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn making these changes to the personal income tax thresholds, we are also making consequential changes to other tax types to take into account the changes being made to\u00A0the income tax thresholds. This bill, therefore, proposes consequential changes to the\u00A0resident withholding tax, fringe benefit tax, the employer superannuation contribution tax, the retirement scheme contribution tax, and the tax on portfolio investment entity income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe bill will also restore dignity and the incentive for personal endeavour. People should always be better off in work than on the benefit, but, for people on the lowest incomes, that principle has been eroded. We are, therefore, proposing to extend the independent earner tax credit by lifting the upper income threshold from $48,000 to $70,000. This will help an additional 420,000 people by $20 a fortnight. Increases are also being proposed by this Government for the Working for Families tax credits. These are the in-work tax credits which will see 160,000 families receive up to an extra $50\u00A0per fortnight, and the minimum family tax credit which will see 3,000 of those families receive an extra $54 a fortnight. Together, the changes outlined in this bill will see people\u00A0better off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOur tax relief package that we have outlined in this bill will increase the take-home income of 83 percent of New Zealanders aged over 15, and over 94 percent of households\u20141.9\u00A0million Kiwi households, on average, will be better off by $60 per fortnight. More than 3.5 million New Zealanders, on average, will be better off by $32 per fortnight. FamilyBoost will also help an estimated 100,000 families with young children. Households with children, on average, will be better off by $78 per fortnight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis bill will make a real difference to the people of this country. It is a bill which makes well-judged use of taxpayers\u2019 dollars. It encourages competitive enterprise and rewards hard-working Kiwis for their achievement. That is what our economy and New Zealand needs. This is an excellent taxation bill. I would like to thank colleagues in Treasury and Inland Revenue officials for all their work in providing policy advice and for drafting this bill. As the Minister of Revenue, it gives me great pleasure to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002239e18a83cb0140a9aa80ce26757f4405\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239e18a83cb0140a9aa80ce26757f4405\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This is a sneaky bill. It\u2019s a sneaky bill that, on the face of it, has some tax threshold changes which will make a bit of a difference to some New Zealanders, but in the detail of the bill, as we uncovered through the committee of the whole House stage, there are some fish-hooks, some wrinkles, some traps, some issues that the Minister couldn\u2019t give us the modelling for or the decisions for. I want to go through that so that people are not misled by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s start with the changes to the tax thresholds. The Minister of Finance was at pains to tell us in recent weeks that the changes made to tax thresholds would be meaningful and would make a difference. I tell you what\u2019s meaningful: the massive job cuts that are going on across the public sector, with 5,000 people out of work. Here\u2019s what\u2019s meaningful: the families who are losing access to prescriptions because that prescription charge is going back on. Here\u2019s another thing that\u2019s meaningful: the families who are paying increased public transport costs, so that\u2019s going to eat up any changes to the tax thresholds. Here\u2019s another thing that\u2019s meaningful: the staggering increases in rates because that Government has refused to engage with meaningful water reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EPeople are supposed to be grateful because in the face of these stupendous increases to costs, there is a small change in the tax thresholds. I suspect that when the reality of these changes appears and the amount that comes through, perhaps in August\u2014we couldn\u2019t be sure, because the Minister wouldn\u2019t guarantee that employers could do it\u2014I\u00A0think people are going to look at what happens in their pay packets and they\u2019re going to say, \u201CIs that it? Is that it?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s going to make no real difference to them. Here\u2019s why: there are the changes in the tax thresholds, but then the majority of the weight that is lifted in the alleged amounts that families will get is done by the childcare rebate. That\u2019s the biggest change that\u2019s coming through. Again, on the face of it, it looks like a good measure\u2014on the face of it. But when we dug into it during the committee of the whole House stage, we found that there were all sorts of problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe found that, instead of the rebate from childcare just blowing through the system on a fairly automatic basis, families were going to have to collect receipts from childcare providers, send them into IRD, and then get a refund into their bank account in an incredibly clunky process. I recall being the mother of young children, juggling getting the kids to and from childcare while I was managing my job, managing all the juggle with\u00A0my husband. It took a lot of work. Adding an administrative burden to that seems simple to those who sit in a job where all sorts of things are done for them, but, for busy working families, that is an administrative burden. We know it\u2019s even more of an administrative burden for our M\u0101ori families, for our Pasifika families, for our rural families. They have given with one hand but made it so difficult for the families who are going to benefit from\u00A0it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThen we found out something really interesting about that childcare rebate: that it abates. When the family income is $140,000, the rebate starts to abate and then it fully abates by the time the family income is $180,000. That is an incredibly steep abatement range. What it does is it increases people\u2019s effective marginal tax rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo I asked the Minister and I said, \u201CWhat is the effective marginal tax rate for someone who perhaps earns $100,000, paying a tax rate of 33 percent at that rate, maybe has a student loan, and then is going to get this childcare rebate abating as well, by the time they\u2019re at $140,000?\u201D He couldn\u2019t tell me. He had not done the modelling on the effective marginal tax rates. It was a lazy move and it should have been done. All it would have taken is sitting an official down with a spreadsheet for an afternoon. They could have done it, but they had not done it, so we don\u2019t even know what the impact of this is going to be on individual earners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s carry on to the tax credits. So there are changes to the minimum family tax credit and the in-work tax credit. Again, on the surface it looks pretty good\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf5ce46ae3a6443183e440ba17be773c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: $50.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022027b8e68e7d3470fbf44e6d6c663a895\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and, of course, it will help some families\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022238509fb8aaf44eb9a6b06a44f12a5c0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, that\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de35bfbb71064be998190d38e4f55cb1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but there is a massive fish-hook in there which the Minister did not address. I refer the House back to the regulatory impact statement and the crossover between the minimum family tax credit threshold and the Working for Families abatement threshold. I\u2019ll read it out: \u201CAs the minimum family tax credit threshold increases annually, it is \u2026 forecast that on 1\u00A0April\u00A02027 it will overlap with the Working for Families abatement threshold.\u201D This will mean that Working for Families customers will face effective marginal tax rates of well over 100 percent. That is a problem that the Minister and the members on that side of the House have not grappled with. They have set up a situation where people are going to face an effective tax rate of over 100 percent. It\u2019s a problem they need to deal with. That was a lurking problem in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThen we get on to Part 4 and the changes to the fringe benefit tax (FBT), employer superannuation contribution tax (ESCT), and portfolio investment entity (PIE) rates. That was one of the sneakiest changes of all\u2014one of the sneakiest changes of all. Those FBT and ESCT rates are set in relation to personal income tax rates. The cost is borne by the employer, but the rates are set in relation to personal income tax rates. Those changes to FBT and ESCT rates will not come into effect until 1\u00A0April next year. So from 31\u00A0July this year until 1\u00A0April next year, employers will be over-taxed on FBT and ESCT. The alleged party of business has put this in place\u2014the alleged party of business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThen the Minister told us that this was because the compliance costs would outweigh the tax. So, in effect, the Minister, on behalf of businesses, made the decision for them. He made the decision that employers would choose to pay more tax instead of incurring more compliance costs. Here\u2019s the problem with that: in the FBT regime as it stands, there is a choice for employers. They get to choose whether or not they will pay some more compliance costs, do some more calculation, do some more work, or pay more tax. The concept of a choice is already there, but the Minister has denied that choice to businesses and he has just laid some extra tax on them. The alleged party of business has done that. I say that that is not a business-friendly move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThen there\u2019s the PIE rate, and this is the most disgusting change of all. Instead of aligning the PIE rates for low-income earners with the personal income tax thresholds, that party is going to over-tax low-income savers on their investment returns. That party is taxing our lowest-paid workers more on their KiwiSaver\u2014that is absolutely outrageous. Just to top it all off, right at the end of the bill, they whack another 1 percent on overseas student loan borrowers. Now, that might not sound like a lot, but there are already huge burdens for young people who are trying to travel, trying to work, trying to get their careers going, and now they are loading extra interest on them, putting some more costs on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why I say that this is a sneaky tax bill. They are touting it as offering people more money in their back pockets, but as they allegedly give with one hand, they take, take, take with the other. They undermine the way we live in New Zealand, they undermine the support we give to each other, and the worst impact of this will be on low-income earners. That is an outrageous thing to do and I cannot believe that they would be proud of this. We could have teased these problems out in a proper select committee process, but now we can\u2019t even address them. It is outrageous that they have done that. It\u2019s outrageous that it has been done under urgency, and it is outrageous that the time for the debate was cut short. This is an outrageous bill and the National Government should be ashamed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b3099fa0f54d74b2d859348df45f81\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the member, can I remind members that this is a third reading. It\u2019s not a discussion across the House, and interjections should be as rare and reasonable as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022019dcaf45dff475c99a722e193dc6278\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022019dcaf45dff475c99a722e193dc6278\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Here\u2019s what this bill does: it gives very modest tax cuts to obscure the fundamental unfairness of our economy and our tax system. Just to lay that out and lay it there for all who may be following along at home: we had, about a year ago, a report from the IRD which told us that the top 311 families in this country hold more wealth combined than the bottom 2.5 million New Zealanders. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b057c51ac96a4bf792ae0208d4270e35\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sorry. I don\u2019t mean to interrupt the member, but discussions need to be quiet and not audible. Please carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022957de5649c48492fb3d2bf9a1af9a041\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. To that effect, the subsidiary papers from both Treasury and IRD spoke to the fact that this is not an accident; it is a consequence of a tax system that sees those at the top pay an effective tax rate less than half of that of the average New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI recall a few years ago, actually, in this debating chamber, as we were debating, I believe, the introduction of the new top tax bracket at $180,000, that I had an interjection, a heckle, thrown at me from the Hon Andrew Bayly, who said that there is such a thing as legitimate tax avoidance. That has rung in my head every single time that we have come to debate tax in this House, because that is what we do here. We set in place rules that enable people\u2014particularly, at present, those at the top\u2014to arrange their affairs in such a way as to avoid paying their fair share of tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWhat was one of the first things that this Government decided to do\u2014under urgency, no less\u2014just before Christmas? Well, it was to repeal the underlying legislation that enabled that reporting which gave us that data which showed us how unfair the tax system is. It\u2019s almost like they\u2019ve got something to hide. So the question needs to be: what cost do these modest tax cuts come with? The reality is that they come at the cost of more expensive public transport across New Zealand; they come at the expense of prescription fees for New Zealanders; they come at the cost of lower-quality school lunches. If the trajectory of decisions from this Government follows conservative decisions in the past, we\u2019ll, effectively, be starving the school lunches programme to be able to, in future, argue that it is ineffective and then cut the funding for it. Mark my words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThese tax cuts also come at the cost of cancer drugs, which the Government also campaigned on and promised would be delivered, but they have decided to fund these trickle-down tax cuts instead. These tax cuts cover the cost of climate action. I find no tiny bit of irony in the fact that the revenue Minister also happens to be the Minister of Climate Change proposing this, knowing that it comes at the cost of the integrity of the emissions trading scheme\u2014i.e., the very system that this Government is placing all of its eggs in the basket of in order to drag down our emissions curve. It also comes\u2014these trickle-down tax cuts\u2014at the expense of pest-free Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not too hard to fire up the shredder, but it is difficult to confront the dual crises of inequality and the climate crisis and to deal to them with evidence and the policy that is necessary to confront both of those crises. The sentiment that I have heard out there from New Zealanders\u2014and all of us would have seen news reports\u2014is that these tax cuts for most people, yeah, they feel better than nothing, but that they mean absolutely nothing in the face of costs going up. So this Government is also simultaneously making decisions to increase costs, notably by some of the decisions that they\u2019ve made in these trickle-down tax cuts. That $2.9\u00A0billion tax cut for landlords\u2014guess what! Our central bank says that that is only going to serve to drive up the cost of housing. We also have some analysis from Treasury that shows that this Government\u2019s decisions are going to increase the costs of rent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also going to come at the cost of our long-term challenges, not only the climate crisis but the $200 billion hole that we face in our infrastructure deficit. That is not even starting on the child poverty report, because I think this is a really, really important question to put across to members of the three Government parties today. I\u2019d encourage them to look into this four-page mockery of a child poverty report and to look to the final page, on page\u00A04, where it shows us a graph\u2014the second graph there\u2014of after-housing costs and the measure and the metric for child poverty as a result of the decisions that this Government is making, namely their tax changes; their trickle-down tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWhat this shows us\u2014and I really, really, really hope that the Government members reflect on this because we all often say when we\u2019re having debates in this place that the reason that we come here is because we all, apparently, believe in the same things; we all, apparently, believe in the same values; we all, apparently, believe in ending child poverty; we just disagree about how to get there. What this graph bears out on page\u00A04 of this child poverty report is that, as a result of Government decisions, more children will be in poverty as a result of the Budget that they are passing and the legislation that they are passing through under urgency, of which these trickle-down tax cuts are a part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ENot only that but they\u2019ve also decided to slip in increases for costs to those who go overseas with student loans in the form of their interest rates. They\u2019ve also\u2014and this is a really interesting one that was teased out through committee of the whole House\u2014through their FamilyBoost measure, can in no way, shape, or form guarantee that the gap is not going to be filled with for-profit providers simply price gouging. I\u2019d also note, ACT Party members, that your deputy leader decided to, throughout the election campaign, rail against this FamilyBoost policy for exactly that same reason. That can be found in the media archives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EToday, 63,000 New Zealand children woke up in poverty. What these trickle-down tax cuts are going to do, amidst the backdrop of a Budget which continues to entrench a deeply unfair and unequal economy, is make more children poor. I find it really interesting as well, if we flick through to page\u00A02 of this incredibly light child poverty report: it says here in the second paragraph under the Government\u2019s approach to child poverty, a key driver of child poverty is living in a benefit-dependent home. Causation is not correlation and correlation is not causation. Indeed, there absolutely is a correlation between the fact that children living in poverty do overwhelmingly live in benefit households. But the reality of the situation is that the reason that those children are in poverty is because we force those in benefits to live in poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d just ask us to unpack, actually, the very notion of child poverty, which is a really interesting rhetorical device used by those in the social sector to campaign for our country to care about poverty as an issue. Because it just so happens to be the case that we don\u2019t tend to empathise with adults in poverty; it seems to be contrary to the notion of the hard-working New Zealander\u2014every politician\u2019s favourite voter\u2014because it is the case that we are quite comfortable in this place, under successive Governments, punching down and blaming people for living below the poverty line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, all this Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill delivers for us is trickle-down tax cuts that continue to entrench a deeply unfair and deeply unequal society and economy, which the Government knows and has the data and the evidence\u2014that they promised us they would care about\u2014will put more children in this country into poverty as a result of their decisions. Frankly, I think that that is something to be ashamed of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI would also reflect on the fact that the finance Minister, in many of the papers released alongside the Budget, cherry-picked statements from the IMF and the OECD in order to rationalise Budget decisions. But she intentionally neglected the top-line ask\u2014the plea\u2014from both of those international entities for our Government and our country to sort out our tax system; to finally, once and for all, put a tax on capital gains so that we level the playing field, so that we stop seeing money ploughed into unproductive assets, namely housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, what we see here today in this Budget from this Government is no ambition, no aspiration, next to no meaningful evidence base for anything that they\u2019re doing. In fact, if they were to look at the evidence, they\u2019d see that it\u2019s making those in this country far worse off. For that reason, the Greens cannot support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00226a6169eba37147d58bfade0fdef8cbab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a6169eba37147d58bfade0fdef8cbab\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to talk to the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill. Firstly, before I talk about the bill, I just do want to congratulate the Hon Nicola Willis on handing down the Budget. This is my first opportunity to speak since the Budget was delivered yesterday. I do want to congratulate her on delivering the Budget and working constructively across the coalition to actually put it together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge my leader, actually, one of the Associate Ministers, David Seymour. I know he diligently worked on the Budget, particularly around the savings measures. These tax cuts that we\u2019re going to talk about have been made possible by actually doing a line-by-line review of Government spending, and taking out a lot of waste. So I think that Kiwis wanted us to make sure that the Government is actually spending money on things that can deliver outcomes, getting rid of wasteful spending, and that\u2019s what this coalition has done. I know Mr Seymour has done his part in delivering that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re very happy, in ACT, to be supporting these tax changes. As Minister Watts said earlier, it\u2019s been 14 years since we\u2019ve delivered any tax relief in this country. There\u2019s this handy little brochure here which actually points out that 83 percent of New Zealanders will benefit from the changes that we are going to pass today. Rather than being trickle-down, this is actually direct tax relief. People are getting to keep more of the money that they work hard for every day\u2014they\u2019re going to keep more of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EIt is true that ACT actually had some different tax proposals. We would have probably liked to have seen a simpler tax system. But this is heading in the right direction. I want to also acknowledge the finance Minister did acknowledge that ACT has other proposals, and we\u2019re going to continue to work constructively in Government to have those proposals worked on, and we will be continuing to execute that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EI want to refer to a couple of things that have transpired in the debate. Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick talked a lot about a few things. One was interest deductibility and unrealised gains. My\u00A0colleague Andrew Hoggard is an economist and he\u2019s very happy to sit down with Ms Swarbrick and talk about what unrealised gains are and why it is inappropriate to actually do a calculation on those, and also how interest deductibility works and why that is an appropriate business expense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EI also want to address the Hon Deborah Russell. I actually agree with the Hon Deborah Russell on something. A lot of acronyms have been thrown around\u2014FBT, PIE, the IETC; lots of acronyms. The Hon Deborah Russell is right: our tax system should be simpler. We shouldn\u2019t need all these acronyms. We shouldn\u2019t need all these carve-outs. There should be a simpler tax system. Again, we\u2019re happy to work with the Hon Deborah Russell, exploring that as ACT\u2019s proposals continue to percolate through the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EIn the meantime, I just want to finish by saying that this is going to give some relief to the cost of living pressures that Kiwis are facing. It\u2019s going to return some money to the back pockets of Kiwis. We\u2019re also attacking Government spending, which, again, is going to bring pressure down and we\u2019re going to see this economy turned around, more people in jobs, growth, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re about in ACT. We want to grow the economy so that every Kiwi has a great opportunity to grow up, earning the kind of income they want, doing the kind of job they want, raising the family the way that they want, and actually contributing to our society. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00228226a0e924b84200ac5708920e8d669c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228226a0e924b84200ac5708920e8d669c\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Once again, I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill, and I\u2019m going to keep it brief. This bill is going to make a difference in the lives of many hard-working New Zealanders, and that is why we will continue to deliver on what we campaigned on. That is why I\u2019m very happy to commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea7d1bdfa68542c5aa4b9efc21e6b56a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the M\u0101ori Party call, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e09827cc6e7c41e6be85a63fc1edf462\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e09827cc6e7c41e6be85a63fc1edf462\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just one moment\u2014thanks very much for your advice, but I\u2019m in the middle of ruling, so if you just let me do that before you offer your opinion, I think we\u2019ll make better progress. So we have a similar split in the 10th call, which is Labour and National speaking; it\u2019s Labour and Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori on this one. I think if we were to say that if Labour swapped in this place with Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori and took a 10-minute call now, that would most likely leave a 10-minute call for National at 10. So with a 10-minute call\u2014and I hope this doesn\u2019t prove too difficult or too much strain, but I\u2019ll call on the Hon Dr\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6fd33838f2b46759a3b786127364da2\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Just confirming that the sixth slot will still be a split call, with the Green Party having a five-minute second call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d9a0cad3e994866ab268c76205f05f3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Green Party doesn\u2019t\u2014oh, the Green Party has the sixth one. Oh, I see the problem. OK, in that case, the Green Party should\u2019ve taken the first five minutes in this. So, look, it\u2019s messy because the party hasn\u2019t got a representative here for a speaker at the moment\u2014and that\u2019s not implied criticism or otherwise. I think, in that case, we\u2019ll take a five-minute call from Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226fdd9dbecf024f10be556a0ad4c978d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fdd9dbecf024f10be556a0ad4c978d3\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This bill has been called \u201Csneaky\u201D by some, and I think, actually, it goes beyond being sneaky; it\u2019s a bill that is cruel, and it speaks to the values of the National Party and its coalition partners. This is a trickle-down bill that ignores those doing it the toughest, that gives cake for those at the top, and breadcrumbs for everyone else, and people deserve far more than those breadcrumbs. We should not settle for people having a handful more dollars each week when we know we can make it a political reality to ensure that everyone can live well and not in poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIt was really telling in this third reading debate when the Minister, the Hon Simon Watts, talked about hard-working Kiwis as the people who this bill was targeting, but, actually, some of the people least benefiting from this bill and, in fact, left out entirely in portions of this bill are caregivers who do caregiving full time, who won\u2019t be receiving the boost to a bunch of income top-ups such as the in-work tax credit, for example, because this Government, and successive Governments, have determined that full-time caregivers are not doing so-called work. The Green Party says an end to this nonsense argument that caregivers are not doing work. Caregiving is work. It\u2019s time for the Government to stop putting it about to all the labour that comes across our economy that actually sustains all of us and yet is not considered important because it is not under an employment agreement. Caregiving, volunteering\u2014and the reality that people deserve the dignity of living well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis bill has to be taken in the context of the cuts to all the other subsidies that will make life more expensive. The reality is that this bill is coming in the context of subsidies for transport being ended, resulting in higher transport fares for people; an end to the subsidies for prescriptions, which will make access to medicines more expensive. It comes with the introduction of greater powers for landlords that will make it easier to evict people, putting people into situations where they\u2019ll need to access emergency housing in distress. So, while they may be celebrating the breadcrumbs that they\u2019ve thrown out to our communities, they\u2019re also making life more expensive for the majority of people. But it is absolutely no surprise. This Government never claimed to be on the side of the many; they\u2019ve made it abundantly clear that they\u2019re here for the wealthy few. The Green Party will continue fighting to ensure that we have a Government that makes the tough political choices to actually end poverty, to tackle the climate crisis, and to deal with our biodiversity crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister is not right when he talks about the decisions in this Budget being tough. In fact, they just continue what successive Governments have done, which is to enable inequality to continue to increase. We\u2019ve seen report after report showing how child poverty measures will stagnate\u2014that this Government isn\u2019t taking the tough choice of ending poverty once and for all. And my colleague Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick was right in calling out the nonsense from Government reports that talk about how one of the key determinants of child poverty is living in a household that relies on a benefit, because it is a political decision to set those benefits below the poverty line. People did not grow up in poverty out of inertia; they grew up in poverty because the Government and successive Governments of blue and red stripes have set benefit levels way below the poverty line. They refuse to tax the wealthy few to ensure that we can lift people out of poverty and have refused to recognise the inherent right that people have to a life with dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis Government has also turned its back on disabled people, many who live on income support, many who will be some of the least proportionately benefiting groups out of these tax cuts. The reality is that you can\u2019t fund Whaikaha and then, on the other hand, remove supplements to minimum wage extensions and exclude disabled people on income support from many of the elements of this bill. Our communities deserve far more than a Government willing to hand the future to those already doing it well and the wealthy few. We deserve a Government that is committed to making the tough choices of ending poverty, tackling the climate crisis, and not continuing with this proven trickle-down economics that has only increased inequality and made life worse for the majority of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf066619b7204414bb2f1806e3ec9ec6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf066619b7204414bb2f1806e3ec9ec6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next member, we have a situation where a party has indicated they wish to share a split call. That is allowed, except that it is on the basis that it is notified. It wasn\u2019t notified. So, in order to maintain a degree of fairness about that, we will have the splits as they are determined already, excepting that the M\u0101ori Party call on this split goes to the Hon Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00228d893f0253c0485d958d77f7b429b390\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d893f0253c0485d958d77f7b429b390\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the indulgence, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill is a centrepiece of this Government\u2019s Budget. What it amounts to is a borrow-and-burn Budget. These tax measures are costing the Government $3.6 billion. Where\u2019s it coming from? Where is the $3.6 billion coming from? This Government is now borrowing\u2014borrowing\u2014more money than any other Government before. The debt\u2014there\u2019s going to be $9.2 billion in financing costs. The suggestion that this Government is not borrowing for its tax package is absolutely laughable. There are two sides of the ledger: one of them has got \u201Cborrowing\u201D on them, one of them has got this tax package on the other. The $3.2 billion has to come from somewhere. If you didn\u2019t spend $3.2 billion on this tax package, that\u2019s $3.2 billion that you wouldn\u2019t have to spend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe know what\u2019s going to happen. I\u2019ve seen the Minister of Finance say with a straight face, an expressionless face, that this won\u2019t be inflationary. But the fact is that when you put $3.2 billion into the economy, it is going to be spent. That is economic vandalism. That is borrowing and burning. What\u2019s more, they say, \u201CDon\u2019t worry, we\u2019ve found money. Somehow, we\u2019ve magicked up some money by doing things like cutting unnecessary programmes.\u201D\u2014stealing from the climate fund. You know, the country is burning, and you\u2019ve just thrown some gasoline on it. It\u2019s absolutely outrageous. \u201COh, we\u2019ve found something to cut. Let\u2019s take a sandwich out of the kids\u2019 school lunches.\u201D You know, that\u2019s basically what they\u2019ve done. Those school lunches\u2014I hope everyone in this House has gone and seen them\u2014are good, healthy, balanced lunches with a with a range of food. Not anymore. It\u2019s going to be a Marmite sandwich. That\u2019s not a healthy school lunch\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e153237f71478a9eea0f78894ca4b5\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: My kids love them. A good Marmite sandwich\u2014my kids love them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a770532c914271a1a818a1df622b9a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: His kids love them\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019ve got. You know, that\u2019s great for you, but what I aspire to is giving kids lunches which are fully rounded and nourishing. This Government is cutting lunches in half. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229823e258a8ca44e19e9eb16e88bb6f65\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014that\u2019s enough. Just carry on; we\u2019ll just have a bit of quiet. Thank\u00A0you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022986ec40d27764bd08d6eadd5b3628588\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: And, of course, free prescriptions. This is how he finds money\u2014a mostly five-buck surcharge. Those members\u2014that Government\u2014wants to cut that five-buck surcharge, knowing that our most needy New Zealanders will walk past the pharmacy because they haven\u2019t got the five bucks to pay for their medicine, to pay for their antibiotics for their lung infection, to pay for their pain medication\u2014all of those things that not only make their lives better but also make them less costly to the New Zealand Government in the long run. So I am surprised and appalled that that is the approach being taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick made a good point. Child poverty indicators\u2014if you have a look at the child poverty report that came out, which is premised on this Budget and these tax measures, the child poverty measures are going up. Child poverty is increasing. That is the choice that this Government is making\u2014that children will be in material hardship. They choose that because they want to buy some lollies with the grocery money, effectively. They want a sugar hit, and that\u2019s what they\u2019ve done with this tax package. We know what child poverty leads to\u2014we know. There\u2019s actually a reason why they\u2019re spending hundreds of millions of dollars building prison beds whilst child poverty is going up\u2014because the two things are linked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo this is a Budget which isn\u2019t fiscally responsible, which is needlessly increasing debt, which is inflationary, but what is worse is that it\u2019s harmful to our most vulnerable New Zealanders. It\u2019s a shameful Budget, and it\u2019s a dark day where I stand here and watch that Government vote in favour of it. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022379c2dcc7a5c49fbbbc8afee0891457f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022379c2dcc7a5c49fbbbc8afee0891457f\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As the nearly quarter of a million hits on the tax calculator website have shown today, Kiwis are very eager to see this Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill be passed. So it\u2019s with great satisfaction that I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b192cc01479943c9a06458ea3a8f4254\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b192cc01479943c9a06458ea3a8f4254\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fecd2bc6dc04486b7dbd746a447debf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, before you start\u2014we\u2019ll start you again. Look, as I said earlier, this is not a conversation; rare interjections only. I call on the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9e13c2c5eab47dfb43061ff94d8efb4\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to follow that fulsome contribution from the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. This bill enacts elements of the Budget that takes New Zealand backwards. It borrows billions for the tax cuts that are contained in this bill. The tax threshold changes will result in far less for New Zealand families than was promised. The question that all New Zealanders are asking today was answered by Andrea Vance in The Post today. The question was, \u201CWas it worth it?\u201D She says, \u201CFor a pensioner couple, getting $4.50 a week \u2026 probably not. The minimum wage earner pocketing 30 cents, surely not. The singleton, earning $55,000 a year, receiving $51 a fortnight, arguably no. [For] The patients relying on funding for 13 new cancer drugs, almost certainly not. And for future generations saddled with $50\u00A0billion of debt, definitely no.\u201D It is clear that many things that are good about life in New Zealand are being sacrificed on the altar of saving Nicola Willis\u2019 political credibility because she committed to tax cuts. Commentary in the New Zealand Herald today says, \u201CThere is absolutely no doubt\u201D\u2014says Matthew Hooton\u2014\u201Cno doubt that New Zealand is borrowing for tax cuts.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to touch on whether or not this is worth it, and I want to focus on one particular policy initiative: the free prescriptions. Now, that was a policy brought in at last Budget that had tremendous impact in New Zealand, keeping people out of hospital, making sure that the many people who have to forgo their medicine because they cannot afford it, who otherwise end up in hospital for treatment, can get the treatment they need. There are many people who need multiple prescriptions at a time and they depend on that support. The pre-election promise from the Government was that that policy would be used to fund cancer medicines. But what happened doesn\u2019t add up. No, they\u2019ve scrapped the free prescriptions and they\u2019ve also not followed through on the cancer medicine treatment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EAnother area: free public transport support for working families has been lost. That contributed quite a bit\u2014it can add up to about $25 a week for some families when they\u2019ve got kids who were getting the free public transport subsidy. That was meaningful impact on the cost of living. Similarly, people\u2019s hope for the better future, for being able to purchase their first home, lost with the cancellation of the First Home Grant. So it seems that this Government is taking with one hand and giving a few scraps in return, and certainly no meaningful action for those that they call the \u201Csqueezed middle\u201D. But there\u2019s more to what\u2019s lost in this Budget than just the ins and outs on the daily budget sheet for the average family; there\u2019s also the services that many New Zealanders depend on. This Budget was funded, in part, by the loss of 5,000 jobs across New Zealand\u2019s Public Service. In health, we\u2019ve lost the people who monitor whether our health system is doing a good job or not, we\u2019ve lost the people who will be there to protect us in the next pandemic, we\u2019ve lost advice, and we\u2019ve lost people who work on regulation\u2014things like protecting kids from vaping\u2014and on and on and on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn education, people who see if those school lunches are, in fact, nutritious\u2014they might provide some inconvenient advice\u2014they\u2019ve been fired. People who protect the borders of our communities, in Customs, keeping meth and other drugs out of our country, and people who keep harmful pathogens out of the community at biosecurity\u2014they\u2019ve been fired in order to fund the tax measures in this bill. At Oranga Tamariki, the people who make sure that the management of children is supported by good legal advice when they\u2019re in State care\u2014they\u2019ve been laid off. There\u2019s been lay-offs at ACC, the agency that helps New Zealanders rebuild their life after an accident\u2014in particular, people at ACC in the injury prevention unit have been fired, meaning that the overall efficiency of the programme is reduced. In the Ministry of Social Development, people have been fired to fund these tax cuts\u2014they\u2019re often the ones transforming the systems that people interface with when they go to get their entitlement. Department of Conservation funding has received a real cut as well as a result of these changes to the tax thresholds, where the only people celebrating are not people; they\u2019re ferrets, because it\u2019s a great day for pests in New Zealand, given all the cutbacks that we\u2019re having to the measures to preserve our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe childcare rebate is a poorly designed piece of policy, though the intent to make sure that parents have support when they\u2019re having their children in care is a good one. The requirement to mean that parents have to pay for their care upfront will be a barrier to many on the lowest incomes accessing the support that is intended to be provided by this bill. It\u2019s a few years since I was a parent of a preschooler, but I remember well the lack of time to do anything for myself, the sleep deprivation, the overwhelm, the household work, the piles of washing, the relationship difficulties that you have when you\u2019re managing all this extra work in your household and your career commitments. Yet the Government decides it\u2019s helping to put a little bit more of red tape and admin in the way of those families as they try and access support. I don\u2019t know why they would design a policy like this in the modern world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to talk about the changes to the student loans\u2014and this is where the bill gets truly, truly sneaky. This was not canvassed in the run-up to the election that this type of a change would be made. But it is of a piece with the type of initiative that this Government has sought to bring forward to tax people who are not New Zealanders, or at least not in New Zealand. We know that the foreign buyers tax was the Government\u2019s first effort to raise revenue of people overseas, but that was scotched by New Zealand First. The international visitor levy is another one where they\u2019re trying to put more costs on people coming to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EAnd this one has snuck through: the student loan increase in repayments for New Zealanders overseas. Now, this one is on New Zealanders who are overseas who are having to pay back their student loans. For some, it will cause additional hardship and it may well cause our well-trained people not to return to New Zealand. When I think about the situation in our health system where it\u2019s normal for many of our well-trained people to go do a fellowship overseas, get the skills they need, and come back to New Zealand\u2014they\u2019ll be facing additional costs as they seek to do that, and then the barrier to returning to New Zealand where we can use their skills seems even higher. I think this is a concern that that side of the House should take more seriously as we face the highest ever level of immigration from this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn the last year, 52,000 New Zealanders went overseas; 39 percent of them are aged 18\u00A0to 30\u2014precisely the people who would be impacted by this. We know that they\u2019ll be looking around, looking at the rising projections for unemployment in New Zealand; seeing the country they love go backwards on climate, backwards on race relations; a Government that likes to kick trans kids in the face every now and then if it suits them politically; challenges in homeownership in this country; and putting an additional burden on them in their student loan repayments. What positive agenda does this Government have for those New Zealanders who we would like to return to New Zealand! So this is a \u201Cbroken promises\u201D Budget. We all remember Christopher Luxon in the leaders\u2019 debate saying that New Zealanders will get $250\u00A0a fortnight with the tax changes. Well, this bill shows that it is barely anywhere near that for the majority of families. It shows very little happening for the squeezed middle, and, in fact, there are more costs being put on to people as free prescriptions and public transport subsidies are rolled back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EAlso, for seniors\u2014I mean, it was incredible how short the New Zealand First seniors spokesperson\u2019s call was, given that it must be of some embarrassment that seniors will only get $4 a week with these\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291d7be4d9bfc4a0d870b43d4853b0752\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: $2.20!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022965f436ef23b4e73ba97749a5e999b40\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: $2 each a week. This is a \u201Cbroken promises\u201D Budget. This bill does nothing to take New Zealand forward; it takes New Zealand backwards. I cannot commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00223831a90ba8e241b4a9f4dd2156527584\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223831a90ba8e241b4a9f4dd2156527584\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this bill because it is all about supporting hard-working New Zealanders to keep more of what they earn. After 14 years, they will finally be getting tax relief on 31\u00A0July. So I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9ade7bc93704fe78b79a30bdd258626\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9ade7bc93704fe78b79a30bdd258626\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Peeni Henare for a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f26087fd48274ab3b80f7ab25866cf71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f26087fd48274ab3b80f7ab25866cf71\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity. I just wanted to address one thing: there are a number of grumbles in the House about some of our colleagues who haven\u2019t been here through the debate. I just wanted to acknowledge this morning the passing of Rawiri Waititi\u2019s father, which is a sad time for him; he\u2019s lost both his parents now in the last six months. So I want to acknowledge him; he will be returning to his marae, Kauaetangohia, in the coming 24 hours. So I just wanted to farewell him. Haere e te matua. Haere, haere, haere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow back to our bill that we have in front of us here today. I stand in opposition to this bill. You know, I don\u2019t claim to be a tax expert, but most of our wh\u0101nau out there just want to know the simple things. They want to know: will they be able to get ahead? They want to know: is the cost of living going to ease so that they can support their families? They want to know that systems are simple in order for them to get on with their daily lives so they can be productive. What I\u2019ve heard throughout this entire debate, and it was a robust debate\u2014and I want to acknowledge the speakers on this side of the House, in particular, who went through this with a fine-tooth comb and challenged the Minister on so many aspects, and couldn\u2019t get an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s paint it quite clear. For our wh\u0101nau out there, what\u2019s happening today is the tax threshold changes. Everyone has said, on that side of the House, that you\u2019re going to be better off. Well, what\u2019s clear to me\u2014and as I look through those threshold rates, I look and see who\u2019s really missing out. Well, I can tell you, and the regulatory impact statement supports this: M\u0101ori are missing out. Pacific peoples are missing out. Families in low socio-economic communities are missing out. They are the ones who need it the most. They need the support the most, and what we\u2019ve heard throughout this entire debate is that that support is being stripped away, \u201CBut that\u2019s OK because we\u2019re going to give you a pittance in your pocket!\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENot only that, though, what I heard, in particular, in one part of the debate was \u201COh no, that\u2019s all right. We\u2019re going to give it back to you but you have to work for it again. You\u2019ve got to go through the administration of making sure you can get a rebate for a child.\u201D Now, that\u2019s just absolutely ludicrous and absurd. I heard some of those k\u014Drero from the other side of the House, saying, \u201COh, well, you know, if they want it badly enough, they\u2019ll go and do it.\u201D This is to my point. Our people want to know that the tax system is simple, easy to understand, so they can get on with their daily lives. That\u2019s not what\u2019s happening here in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe also talked about a number of other reasons why people are leaving this country. Well, I say, \u201CGidday, mate!\u201D, because a lot of our people are leaving this country simply because the cost of living burden is just far too great. What was advertised in the entire election was that relief was going to be given to them, they\u2019ll have more in their pocket, they\u2019ll have more to spend in our local economies, they\u2019ll be able to stay here and support their families. Well, record numbers are going to Australia; record numbers are heading to greener pastures so that they can get the necessities of life: better healthcare, better support in education, better support for their families. This bill does not do that for our families out there. It might do it for the privileged, the wealthy few, it does it for the people at the top of the ladder, but it does not do it for the people who need it the most, and that\u2019s the point that I need families out there in our communities, our hard-working families, to get through tonight. That is, it does not support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhen the tax thresholds come into enforcement, they\u2019re going to look at their pay packet and say, \u201CWell, is that all? Was that worth it? Did we make the right choice at the election?\u201D My point to them is, well, sadly, the election was the election, but they get a choice again in the future. They get to choose whether or not they back better healthcare. They get to choose whether or not they back better education outcomes. They get to choose whether or not the cost of living crisis will be eased so that they can look after their families and they can do all the aspirational stuff that we talk about in this House, where, at the moment, they\u2019ve been stripped of that aspiration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ll have a choice to make in the coming years, and I encourage them to have a good hard look at what\u2019s in this bill, have a good hard look at what was left to them at the end of the day, in their back pocket, and I\u2019ll remind them that it was bugger all. And when they\u2019ve been given a little bit, as my colleague has rightly said, they\u2019ve been given a little something with one hand and I can say that they\u2019ve been punched in the puku with the other, because you might get a little bit more in the pocket, but you\u2019ve got to pay more because subsidies for transport have gone, you\u2019ve got to pay more because healthcare\u2019s going up, and that\u2019s just not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe community aren\u2019t silly; they\u2019ll see this bill for what it is. They\u2019ll see this tax movement from this Government and what it\u2019s for, and they\u2019ll make a better decision into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022addcbaf5ff5b404ab32df802974a5ad9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022addcbaf5ff5b404ab32df802974a5ad9\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s really challenging, while we listen to the drivel from the other side that\u2019s been there for six years. I\u2019m so glad we\u2019re bringing back reading, writing, and maths, because there\u2019s one thing they don\u2019t seem to understand: you don\u2019t borrow to fund tax cuts; you let people keep more of their own money. I know they think it\u2019s funny. It\u2019s ironic. Actually, it\u2019s about reducing your spending. It\u2019s something you didn\u2019t learn, and that\u2019s why you\u2019re now in Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EAnd while the member Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick yelled at us for nine minutes in her debate, she didn\u2019t properly read the regulatory impact statement from the Inland Revenue Department, which says it is estimated that the tax package, which includes a $25 increase to the in-work tax credit, will reduce child poverty by around 14,000, plus or minus 6,000\u2014so that\u2019s 20,000 to 12,000 children. We\u2019re reducing child poverty. So maybe it\u2019s time that you went\u00A0back to school and did your own reading, writing, and maths. I\u00A0commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00226d3b2a1508ae4fa0a14233f9d662d683\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d3b2a1508ae4fa0a14233f9d662d683\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. If this Budget was so good and if it really delivered what the Government is saying it is, don\u2019t you think they\u2019d want to speak for a bit longer than a minute and a half to talk about it? But they don\u2019t, because right throughout this debate\u2014the first reading, the second reading, and the committee of the whole House stage\u2014all their claims have been unravelled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EYou know, the rules of Parliament are quite restrictive, and there are certain words that you cannot use. You can, however, use a combination of words to describe things. There is a word for when people say one thing and do another, there\u2019s also a word for saying something that isn\u2019t true, and there\u2019s also a word for saying something and then ignoring that and then not doing that thing, and all of those situations have occurred in this Budget. What summed it up quite nicely was that very brief contribution there, from Ryan Hamilton, that said that you can\u2019t borrow to give tax cuts. Well, you can, because that\u2019s what they\u2019ve done. What they have done is they have committed to tax cuts which, in turn, have reduced the Government\u2019s revenue, and then borrowed to fill the gap. They have borrowed for tax cuts, despite the fact that in their Budget at a Glance, it says, \u201CTax relief is fully funded\u201D. But it\u2019s not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIf there was the equivalent of the Advertising Standards Authority here, this should be reported because it is not telling it as it actually is, and there is no greater example of how this Government has let New Zealanders down than in housing. This Government has decided that instead of helping first-home buyers over that line to produce a deposit to buy their first home, it is a better and more pressing priority to do a $2.9 billion tax cut for landlords. In addition to that, this Government has said that it is a bigger priority for them to reduce the brightline test, which will ultimately see houses bought and flicked on much quicker than they would have done otherwise. A really interesting piece of information that came from the Government\u2019s own analysis said that a combination of those two policies\u2014the $2.9 billion tax cut for landlords and reducing the brightline test\u2014will mean that rents will go up quicker and longer, and this is the Government that promised to bring down rents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, what was I talking about earlier, about saying something that isn\u2019t actually the case and knowing that that\u2019s the case? For months, throughout the election campaign and at question time after question time after question time, the Prime Minister sat in that seat there and said to the House and said to the people of New Zealand that the tax cut for landlords would drive rents down. He knows that\u2019s not the case, and now the Government\u2019s own analysis says so. How can Government members stand up for 90\u00A0seconds or, in some cases, for quicker than a minute and say that this is a good deal for New Zealanders when they know that it\u2019s not? The piddly, small amount that many, many, many New Zealanders are getting out of these tax cuts will not compensate for the additional costs that they are bearing. It will not compensate for the increase in rents and it will not compensate for the increase in insurance, nor will it compensate for the increase in rates, and every time that ratepayers open their bills and see a rates increase that they did not expect, they can lay the blame squarely on the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EEven the Government\u2019s own advice says that, by repealing the water reforms, that has imposed an undue burden on councils, who simply cannot do it by themselves. Their own advice said that repealing the water reforms would cause a significant increase in rates, and later on in urgency, we\u2019ll be debating a bill that does absolutely nothing to reduce rates. It fiddles around with processes to make things that can already happen happen quicker, but it does not in any way deliver lower rates for ratepayers, and that is the thing that is stinging Kiwis the most. It is a massive driver of inflation at the moment. It\u2019s not just ratepayers; it\u2019s renters as well, because, of course, if the costs on landlords and ratepayers go up, so too do rents. This is a fact. It is in their own advice, and it is disingenuous, to say the least, to stand up and crow about how much this Budget is delivering for New Zealanders when many New Zealanders are facing costs that will be far higher than the tax cuts that they receive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn addition to the increased cost of rents and rates, the housing issue continues. This Government\u2014and this is something that hasn\u2019t been spoken about, and I\u2019d be really interested on their thoughts. Perhaps if they\u2019d contributed to the full time allocated, we might have been able to hear about this. A billion dollars: remember that\u2014it\u2019s a lot of money. A billion dollars they have removed from the maintenance budget of K\u0101inga Ora\u2014$1 billion\u2014because they want to do what they did last time, and that\u2019s run down K\u0101inga Ora and then say, \u201CSee? The Government shouldn\u2019t be involved in the provision of State housing. We may as well flick \u2018em off.\u201D It\u2019s what happened last time and it\u2019s what\u2019s happening this time, and the fact is that in the Budget, in order, in part, to pay for tax cuts, they have taken $1 billion out of the maintenance budget for K\u0101inga Ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe question I have for the members is this: is a leaky roof still considered a roof over the family that is vulnerable and that needs housing? Because, obviously, that is exactly where it is going, and it demonstrates, yet again, that this Government doesn\u2019t care about those that need it. They\u2019ve made the wrong choices and they\u2019ve got the wrong priorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to saying that they would do one thing and then not do something, there is no greater example than their promising vulnerable families who are facing an untimely and early departure of their family members who are suffering from cancer that they, if in Government, would fund prescribed cancer medication. They broke that promise\u2014they broke that promise. They misled New Zealanders. They said they were going to do something that they simply could not do, and then they have the gall to turn around and try and blame us. I couldn\u2019t believe it. The finance Minister was trying today, when she\u2019s come under the pump\u2014it\u2019s quite clear that the message has hit home with the Government that this is a step too far for New Zealanders. To promise people that they would fund cancer medications when they knew they could never do it and they had no intention of doing it\u2014and there are people that voted for that Government solely on that policy\u2014and then to turn around and try and blame us. It was a cynical move, and if there was any credibility left in the finance Minister, it disappeared today, when she made that claim. It is disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThey should own it. They misled New Zealanders. They promised something that they knew they couldn\u2019t deliver, they had no intention of delivering it\u2014because they can\u2019t; it\u2019s not how Pharmac works\u2014and here they are, turning around, and saying, \u201COops, sorry. But, by the way, let\u2019s blame Labour.\u201D Nah\u2014sorry, that\u2019s not going to wash. If you\u2019re going to campaign on something so personal as funding cancer medications for people who are desperate to get as much assistance as they possibly can and who then vote for you on that basis, own it. That was a choice that this Government made. They turned their backs on those people and they should own it, and instead of standing up for 60 seconds or 90 seconds and saying how great this Government is, how about those members using the time to tell those people why they made that choice. That would be the honourable thing to do\u2014stand up and defend the decisions that they\u2019ve made. Defend the decision to back landlords and those that are wealthy instead of following on the promises that they made on funding cancer medications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAnd the best that they can come up with\u2014the best they can come up with\u2014is to tell me, \u201CYou\u2019re running out of time.\u201D That\u2019s it, and I think that speaks volumes. They\u2019ve been confronted with the truth and they don\u2019t like it. Well, it\u2019s not just us that\u2019s going to confront them with it; they\u2019re going home on Monday afternoon, when this urgency finishes, and they have to face their constituents. I\u2019d rather be us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022967b0085b25c4d0083dd148b47e22668\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022967b0085b25c4d0083dd148b47e22668\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E A majority of average-income Kiwi households will be better off from 31\u00A0July, following the passing of this bill in Parliament later today. This bill gives effect to the coalition Government\u2019s promise to New Zealanders who are suffering with the cost of living crisis. Let me set the record straight: this bill is fully funded so won\u2019t add to inflation pressures. This is what a fiscally responsible Government should do and will do. I\u2019m honoured to be the last member to contribute to this bill. So I\u2019m very proud to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222b090721f5424cb1ab511b957e8ef5cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000716\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec2d099a97964d5a9e93900a4d6f3ce7\u0022\u003EPublic Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e23e7925bbb54e57941c732c207925a2\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022874698e3f35d49cbbdcfdc03896c3707\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022874698e3f35d49cbbdcfdc03896c3707\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I present a legislative statement on the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe8c69834eca437fab6e4dfd95265aaa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on Parliament\u2019s website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273783a00ea6d4864bbf82839e410a061\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of a package of proposals that support the Government\u2019s Budget goal to deliver efficient, effective, and fiscally sustainable public services. The package promotes the effective provision of court and tribunal services and will contribute to the target of getting the Government\u2019s books back into balance. Furthermore, this bill will increase revenue at a time when we\u2019re investing a crucial $2.9 billion into restoring law and order and cleaning up the mess left by the last Government. Our Government is facing up to the reality left behind: New Zealand isn\u2019t as safe as it once was. It isn\u2019t the New Zealand many of us grew up in. This kind of revenue will allow us to invest in addressing serious youth offending, ensuring there are real consequences for crime, increasing prison capacity, and getting more police officers on the beat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill will amend section 73 of the Public Finance Act 1989. I acknowledge the Minister of Finance\u2019s agreement to the amendment. The bill will increase the proportion of fines retained by the Crown which are collected in the courts by the Ministry of Justice on behalf of local authorities and other organisations. The percentage of fines collected which will be retained by the Crown will increase from 10 percent to 14 percent and is expected to increase net revenue by $2.697 million across 2024-25 to 2028-29. This does not include fines collected for Government departments or Crown entities but does include council-controlled organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EProvision of collection enforcement services by the ministry for local authorities and other organisations includes a high volume of fines imposed for infringement offences. Individuals who commit an infringement offence such as illegal parking must pay a fine. If a person fails to pay an infringement fee, local authorities can choose whether to use the collection and enforcement services provided by the courts to collect this fee. When fines are recovered by the Ministry of Justice on behalf\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022041b098e838545d4ac0eed37d16fb16c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a parking tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c5b3b35083a4f83a02a519d90bf04dd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014listen\u2014of local authorities and other organisations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248ad47782c304d5989555968ef88c13e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re listening all right\u2014so\u2019s the rest of the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022093f5a061d764bf79b899147e403325c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Listen up. When fines are recovered by the Ministry of Justice on behalf of local authorities and other organisations, 10 percent is credited to the Crown in accordance with section 73 of the Public Finance Act, and the remainder of the fine is paid by the local authority. The 10 percent deducted from fines is retained by the Crown, rather than the ministry, but reflects a contribution towards the cost of collection and enforcement services. The 10 percent retained by the Crown from fines it recovers was set in 1989 and has not been reviewed or increased in over 30 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe costs of collection have, of course, increased over that time. Local authorities and other organisations who receive most of the money the court collects for their fines benefit from using the service and should be responsible for a reasonable level of costs for the recovery. The increase in the amount of the fine the Crown retains from 10 percent to 14\u00A0percent is comparable to the proportion charged by private debt collectors. The recovery rate will remain competitive whilst still helping to cover the costs of collection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of a suite of changes to update fees and costs in courts and tribunals which will increase revenue. These fees and costs will be increased in line with inflation since they were last set, and most come into force on 1\u00A0July. There are 26 Orders in Council giving effect to the fee changes. Most of these have not been updated in over 10\u00A0years. These collection charges include fees paid to file unpaid infringements for collection and the court costs\u2014these have not been updated since 1998\u2014and the enforcement fee for fines, which was last updated in 2013. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIt is appropriate that the costs of collecting and enforcing fines are recovered from those who commit the offences and have unpaid fines. The suite of changes, which includes this bill, will encourage recipients to resolve their infringements directly with the issuing authorities, rather than leaving them unpaid. It is important that where the courts\u2019 collection services are used, the portion of fines retained by the Crown is also increased through this bill to ensure it reflects increases in collection costs. It is intended that this bill will come into force through the Budget night legislation, and the proposed commencement is 1\u00A0July\u00A02024. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00229d858036b38246098882e192465702be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d858036b38246098882e192465702be\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8fcf7bf08174e1f8395c82cff520234\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8fcf7bf08174e1f8395c82cff520234\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E No wonder there was kind of a smattering of half-hearted applause from the members on the other side there. That was one of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022372a2acfe2ac42f68940f256a2687475\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re waiting for the rest of the speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022773fd57f86ce4b66b63af1e7fb5187dc\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why you\u2019re losing your long weekend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bff302502ed34cc1b9c5ae7851cc645f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re very happy to be here and to debate the important issues of the day that this Government want to raise under urgency. One of those, my friends, is that we think we should make the local bodies pay a bit more to the Government for parking fines. We\u2019ve got a parking fine tax. I don\u2019t know where that member got his numbers from saying that this was going to raise millions of dollars, because the disclosure statement that I\u2019ve got off the Table says that this piece of legislation next year will raise $466,000. So here we are debating fiercely a 4 percent increase in\u2014and this is what this Government does: it\u2019s so scrambling around to find money for its tax package that it\u2019s had to go right to the back of the cupboard and find a 4 percent increase. Of course, the irony is that this is a 10 percent levy on collections that\u2019s done through the court system. Of course, you don\u2019t need to increase it and adjust it for inflation because it\u2019s a proportionate levy. It makes perfect sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the other thing. I mean, David Seymour must be seething because he\u2019s got his new Ministry for Regulation thing going on and one of his big bugbears is that levies and\u00A0charges need to actually relate to the costs. What work has this Government done? None. This is just a grab\u2014this is just a grab\u2014and this utterly cuts across the work that David Seymour wants to do. This is just a tax\u2014and it\u2019s not just local bodies, actually; it\u2019s any number of entities, if you read the legislation itself. It\u2019s any local authority or other organisation, department, an Office of Parliament, a Crown entity, a Schedule 4 organisation or a Schedule 4A company. Whenever they go to court to collect a fine, then\u00A0this levy will be applied. So it\u2019s just a little money grab; effectively, a tax on these other entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing\u2014if the Minister had done his homework, he\u2019d know\u2014is there\u2019s a whole lot of exceptions littered throughout legislation as well. So fines under the Dog Control Act are exempt, for example. The Accident Compensation Corporation is also exempt. Fines under the Resource Management Act are also exempt. So it\u2019s a strange little piecemeal thing. But, look, this is the choice they\u2019ve made; this is how they\u2019re going to do it. They\u2019ve chosen to borrow money to increase debt. They\u2019ve chosen this trivial tax package which is giving derisory amounts to our lowest-paid workers and they\u2019ve got to find the money somewhere, so they\u2019re going to dip into the back of the cupboard and impose an extra levy on local bodies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, we\u2019ve got our spokesperson for local government, the Hon Kieran McAnulty, here and I\u2019m sure he may have something to say because this is how they treat local bodies. They don\u2019t help them out. In fact, here they are; they\u2019ve got increasing rates\u2014increasing rates\u2014and what do they do? They just take a bit more money off them. They\u2019re hanging out our local bodies to dry. Actually, the funny thing is that if there is any money to be made, it\u2019s not by this bit of legislation; it\u2019s by the numerous Orders in Council that the Minister alluded to in his speech. Because what they\u2019re going to do there is they\u2019re going to actually increase significantly the costs that are imposed on people who go to court to argue about their parking fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd let\u2019s just\u2014and this is in the disclosure statement\u2014remember who this will impact most. It will impact our poorest New Zealanders. In fact, the disclosure statement itself says this will likely impact M\u0101ori and Pasifika disproportionately as well. So there we go again. Either\u2014[Interruption] It\u2019s what it says. You can naysay, but if you\u2019ve done your homework and done your reading, you can see that that\u2019s what it says. At least there is a disclosure statement in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is another ridiculous, trivial bill raising a few hundreds of thousands of dollars, and we\u2019re doing it under urgency\u2014utterly, utterly unnecessarily, but you\u2019ve brought it here. We\u2019re going to do our job. We\u2019ll have a good look over it, and we\u2019ve got a lot more to say about it. But so far, from what I can see, a silly little bill that the Minister\u2019s brought to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022758ccca773104874b8a89a6f03bb07af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022758ccca773104874b8a89a6f03bb07af\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is so desperate to find cuts to fund their tax cuts that ultimately benefit those who already have the means to do well, while throwing breadcrumbs to everyone else. They\u2019re basically willing to reduce the amount that local government is able to have when it comes to the collection of fines, which actually, supposedly, are used to deter poor behaviour. But let\u2019s make it clear: fines, in the first place, were already a free pass for the wealthy to get away with bad behaviour, because if you\u2019re rich, a fine means nothing but a wet bus ticket on the wrist. A fine, if you\u2019re on a low income or if you\u2019re on the benefit\u2014the same people who benefit the least from the Government tax cuts\u2014could mean the difference between being able to pay your rent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s also illuminate where the Government is coming from: relying on punishments that actually, ultimately, only tend to affect the lives of those struggling the most and allow those who have six-figure salaries or more to get away with poor behaviour, and, at the same time, making it harder for local government to have the revenue to do what it needs to do to provide services to our local communities just to pay for those tax cuts. This is an unserious Government\u2014fiscally irresponsible\u2014that will, at any cost, for the optics of having tax cuts, completely undermine our public services, will undermine local government, and will continue with the rhetoric of using fines, which again are punishments for the poor and a free pass for the rich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Green Party thinks that the answer lies in the devolution and the resourcing of services to local entities. And for a Government that talks about localism, this is a bill that does the exact opposite. It\u2019s really interesting just how fiscally illiterate the members on the opposite side are. You know, when Duncan Webb was talking about the amount of revenue that is going to be collected by this bill, the members opposite me said, \u201COh, there\u2019s a lot of money for a person.\u201D No single individual is going to keep that revenue to themselves. That\u2019s revenue the Government will be using, so I would encourage the members opposite to me that if they\u2019re going to be interjecting, at least they should not be\u2014or, actually, I invite them to demonstrate their interjections how fiscally irresponsible and illiterate they are and how much they\u2019re committed to actually punishing those doing it the toughest while at the same time cozying up to the wealthy elite, the property investors, the 70 homes - owning landlords who will then be complaining about a potential capital gains tax from the left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis bill is a nonsense bill. If we want adequate services for our communities\u2014our communities having the right to have good waste disposal services, for example\u2014the answer lies in resourcing our local entities, not depriving them of funds and the Government collecting that to offer these tax cuts. The truth is that this bill comes in the context of the Government making the cost of living more expensive for our communities. This bill is part of a range of interventions that relied on making life more expensive for people. And so the Green Party just simply won\u2019t be supporting this bill. This bill also goes against our principles of appropriate decision making, because at no point, have we seen adequate consultation with local government authorities to ensure that this bill is adequately consulted on with those local government authorities who ultimately will be affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe bill relies, like I said at the beginning of my contribution, on punishments that allow the rich to get away with poor behaviour. If we look at the regulatory impact statement, it\u2019s laid bare here that low-income individuals are likely to be disproportionately impacted by increasing costs. And I\u2019ll quote: \u201CThese individuals are more likely to be unable to pay on time in the first place and may be more likely to default on their fines and have enforcement action taken against them.\u201D The fines that we\u2019re talking about end up criminalising poor people. For a Government that is so supposedly serious on reducing crime, they\u2019re actually relying on means that end up criminalising people in poverty\u2014a completely unserious Government. But I don\u2019t even want to appeal to their values as if they care, because they don\u2019t care. They don\u2019t care about people in poverty, they don\u2019t care about disabled people who are doing it the hardest, they don\u2019t care about the poor people they\u2019re criminalising, and they don\u2019t care about their so-called localism they promote, because this bill shows otherwise. It\u2019s a completely unserious Government, and the Green Party won\u2019t be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u00221e4a633ffcfd480a9c629a14b9a5870d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e4a633ffcfd480a9c629a14b9a5870d\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Nobody likes fines\u2014getting them, paying them\u2014but, unfortunately, sometimes this happens. Nobody likes to pay a fee in court, but often people end up there. And when that is done and there is a cost associated with that, it should be paid. Now, for too long, 10 years in some cases, and 20\u00A0in the case of court fines, the price has not gone up. This is a very fair increase, and I\u00A0commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4f0be4b053a45f891ed06281dfc297d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4f0be4b053a45f891ed06281dfc297d\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. This bill amends the Public Finance Act 1989 to increase, from 10 percent to 14 percent, the percentage the Crown retains from amounts of fines recovered for offences prosecuted by or on behalf of local authorities or other organisations. This will better reflect the cost of the collection and enforcement of court fines and ensure that it remains fiscally sustainable. This seems to be like a very common-sense approach, and since our party is a party of common sense, I commend this to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002248d5bebee21340618ea26d4947ea951c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248d5bebee21340618ea26d4947ea951c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E This rather modest, or some might say pathetic, little bill that\u2019s take that\u2019s taking up the time of this House, chewing through taxpayers\u2019 money\u2014as my colleague Duncan Webb pointed out, is likely to generate $466,000 for the Crown finances in the next financial year. It\u2019ll probably cost more money going through this House in urgency than it will generate in the next financial year. It\u2019s unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019ll say this: this bill actually tells an important part of the story of this Budget. You see, this Government is desperately trying to claw back every little bit of revenue that it can get its hands on to shore up its crumbling finances. This bill increases the percentage of fines retained by the Crown when the courts gather fines on behalf of councils. The important bit of the picture for the public to understand is that this Government handed over $2.9 billion in tax breaks to landlords, part of a package of $14.7 billion that this Budget gives in tax cuts that will disproportionately benefit the\u00A0well-off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ENow, net debt, as a result of this, will rise over the next four years by $68.3 billion to more than $220 billion. That\u2019s $12 billion more than the Treasury forecast last December. Now, a member on that side of the House stood up not very long ago and said that the tax\u00A0cuts are fully funded\u2014the tax cuts are fully funded. Well, the only way you can say that\u00A0the tax cuts are fully funded is that they are fully funded by borrowing\u2014they are fully funded by borrowing. The Government is giving $14.7\u00A0billion in tax cuts; they are\u00A0borrowing an extra $12 billion. They are fully funded by borrowing\u2014that\u2019s what they\u00A0are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESo how is the Government trying to make their dodgy numbers add up? Well, they are shovelling costs onto Kiwis like there is no tomorrow. They\u2019re bringing back the $5\u00A0prescription medicines fee. They have slashed the public transport subsidies that provided free public transport for our kids and half price for young people. There are extra road-user charges for electric vehicle users, and a 50 percent increase in car rego. They have cancelled First Home Grants. They are scaling back the building of State housing. They have reduced the quality of school lunches, and they have increased tuition fees for students in their first year. And now, there\u2019s no depth too low for this Government to stoop than actually spending the valuable time of this House in urgency, clawing back hundreds of thousands of dollars in parking fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe fact that they didn\u2019t campaign on this in the election campaign is misleading. It is dishonest. There was no word of this during the election campaign, but it is part of an organised campaign of clawing back revenue from New Zealanders by imposing a raft of new charges. But there\u2019s more. All of these extra costs imposed on Kiwis are having an inflationary effect. According to Reserve Bank data, fees and charges increased; the inflation for the last quarter was 2 percent\u2014it has doubled since the Labour Government was in office. That is, without doubt, contributing to inflationary pressures that will keep interest rates higher than they otherwise would have been. And that, more than anything\u2014more than the raft of extra charges this Government has imposed on New Zealanders\u2014will hurt hard-pressed families by increasing their mortgage servicing fees. This is a Government that is making bad choices, it is breaking promises like there\u2019s no tomorrow, and New Zealanders won\u2019t forget it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022189f2c4cf7c34ad9883f822c20106e50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022189f2c4cf7c34ad9883f822c20106e50\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Well, ladies and gentlemen, now we know why the Labour Party thinks that the tax relief offered by the Government is trivial and miserly and not quite enough, because the Labour Party wants to email every hard-working New Zealander and take their tax cut and donate it back to the Labour Party. That\u2019s what they want to do. That\u2019s what they think is an appropriate use of taxpayer dollars\u2014back to the taxpayer, straight back in Labour Party coffers. Shame on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EThis is my first contribution today, which is also 30\u00A0May still in Parliament land, and as it is 30 May, I\u2019d like to wish Mike Butterick a very happy birthday for yesterday, for today, for tomorrow, for Monday, for Tuesday\u2014for as long as it takes for this hard-working Government to get through the programme to support the Budget that gives tax relief for hard-working New Zealanders and not the semi-retired Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EThis bill\u2014and I\u2019ll remind the House\u2014is a very concise, very short, very simple, sharp bill; lots of quick, sharp calls because it does one thing: it creates a small increase to the amount collected by the Crown from local authorities, from 10 percent to 14 percent, for cost recovery, basically driven under the rampant inflation from the previous Government. It does one short, simple thing. It is excellent, it is concise, and I look forward to its passage through the House, swiftly or otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022a12d59cb7f53430683035efa1f14d30e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a12d59cb7f53430683035efa1f14d30e\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I think that speech there was quite telling. I\u2019m very pleased that James Meager realises that we will still be here on Monday and Tuesday, because they thought that we would give up. They gave up. They were giving 60-second, 90-second speeches, and here we saw another one, but it spoke volumes because he didn\u2019t actually speak about this bill; he gave a speech to the previous bill. He had a point to make. He didn\u2019t have anything to say about this bill, because this bill is a pointless exercise that will actually contribute to them still being here on Monday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhy on earth are we ramming this through under urgency? This bill is utterly pointless in the context of the Budget and utterly pointless in the context of this urgency, and it actually is a relatively small amount of money in the context of the Budget. It does speak volumes as to why they believe that this bill is so important, because they are so desperate for any form of revenue to try and plug the gap. But the problem is the gap is too big. The gap is so big that they\u2019ve had to borrow billions in order to fill it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s a principle behind this bill that I oppose, and it is, yet again, the National Party kicking local government. Yet again, the National Party thinks local government are so irrelevant that we can actually take some of what they would consider income and revenue and try and plug the gap that they created by their decisions, because, ultimately, it is their decisions, isn\u2019t it? They are the ones that are deciding to give $2.9 billion to landlords, they are ones who are deciding to reduce the time of the brightline test\u2014they are the ones that are deciding to do that instead of doing things like funding cancer treatment that they promised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut here\u2019s the thing: in the context of this bill and local government, they promised that they would help every council in the country pay for their water. Matt Doocey stood in this House, in that seat right there\u2014I remember it like it was yesterday\u2014and he promised councils that if National were elected, they would help them pay for their water. We knew at the time it wasn\u2019t true, because we knew that we were talking about $185\u00A0billion. They broke that promise, and you can add it to the list, because there is a long winding list of broken promises that result from the Budget, and that is one of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, after doing that, and after repealing water reform and placing the burden back on councils\u2014and we\u2019re about to debate a bill that actually won\u2019t help councils one bit, and won\u2019t reduce rates bills by any meaningful standard\u2014here they are having another crack at local councils. It\u2019s not bad enough that they have to pick a Minister who\u2019s totally disinterested in the sector; now they have to put the boot in by saying, \u201CYep, we\u2019ll take $400,000 this year and $500,000 the next year.\u201D Oh yeah, OK, it\u2019s only 4 percent, but here\u2019s some context: Local Government New Zealand came to the Governance and Administration Committee earlier this week, and they talked about the pressure that they are under in terms of the rating system. I asked them whether the Minister had anything meaningful to discuss with them about assisting them with rates, and they said no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThey were excited about the prospect that there might be some shared GST for new builds. Well, that\u2019s not in the Budget, so there\u2019s another thing that they\u2019ve dangled in front of local government and they\u2019ve taken away. What they told us, which is useful in terms of understanding how important this actually is to local government\u2014they used the example of the Mackenzie District Council, who, because of the increase in tourists that have been visiting their district, have had to fund someone to clean the toilets twice a day as opposed to once a day. Now, that small adjustment equates to a 1 percent increase in rates across the entire district. That\u2019s massive. So, yeah, OK, fine, it\u2019s only $400,000, but that\u2019s actually significant for local government, and it\u2019s very significant, proportionally, to small rural councils\u2014the very areas that these people are supposed to represent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022886cd06484ed433d8d0831fd199320c3\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Cheer up\u2014it\u2019s not that bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ed364ed63544100ad28b5be572070a3\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: And all I get is \u201CCheer up\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022302469e47a5047ef9107ba73d2b7ded3\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re negative all the time\u2014\u201CNegative Nancy\u201D over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5dbbb65cd3a44a3b777bcdd1697da4d\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re negative, because you guys have stuffed local government. It\u2019s easy for Matt Doocey to say, sitting there in Waimakariri, who were the lead opponents to water reform, who have all their pipes paid for by the Government after the earthquake, and then say, \u201CNo, we don\u2019t need reform.\u201D Matt Doocey has let his district down. Matt Doocey has let New Zealand down, and he claps and he laughs and it\u2019s a genuine display of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b12eea450a6045d08bb90aa95226a2ce\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Hey, I won my electorate, buddy. How did you go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221343a97f7c7e4b87810d508b5b1b6a50\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Now he\u2019s making fun of people who didn\u2019t win their electorates; I\u2019ll pass that on to Nicola Willis, shall I? They snap and they respond and they have a crack, because they have no answers. It\u2019s typical of this arrogant Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00229947784073d14f4986c70bd543328521\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229947784073d14f4986c70bd543328521\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this bill, that makes a small amendment to the Public Finance Act, but, once again, the Opposition are using every call obsessing about tax relief. They\u2019re obsessing about tax relief, claiming it\u2019s both unpopular and insignificant. Well, three numbers\u2014three numbers: polls show that 75\u00A0percent of Kiwis want tax relief, 75 percent; that\u2019s the first one. Second number: 83\u00A0percent of New Zealanders and 93 percent of households would benefit, according to Treasury, from tax relief. They\u2019ll benefit from tax relief on 31\u00A0July. This is a suite of packages to make New Zealanders\u2019 lives a lot better. They\u2019re looking forward to it, they want it, they support it; we support them. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002279fbb3af8c8047609c72c1af771f5d26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279fbb3af8c8047609c72c1af771f5d26\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to say a few words on the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. Saying it took longer than what it actually does. It\u2019s a trivial little bill that is a waste of our time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EBut before I start, may I extend my birthday wishes to Mike Butterick. It\u2019s an interesting fact that because we\u2019re in urgency, the day doesn\u2019t actually end, does it? So some people have birthdays, some people have birth weeks or birth months, but I reckon Mike\u2019s birthday is going to take about 5\u00BD days, maybe six, so I think we\u2019ve got plenty of time\u2014to congratulate him on his birthday best of week. Also, while I\u2019m at it, Mr Brewer\u2014if I was him, I\u2019m not entirely sure I\u2019d be mentioning polls at the moment. I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s necessarily a good way to make a contribution, but nevertheless, I digress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThis bill raises two things for me and only two things. I think, as has been said, it\u2019s the second bill up in urgency. It\u2019s like a jewel in the crown, isn\u2019t it? You know, the No. 2 banner comes up and what have we got? The Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, which is, essentially, just a parking ticket tax\u2014that is all it is. I mean, we remember, don\u2019t we? It\u2019s not that long ago that both Nicola Willis and Christopher Luxon were talking a really big talk about what turned out to be a pretty disappointing tax policy. Then they talked up this really big talk, and actually they both staked their jobs on it and their reputations on what turned out to be pretty facile tax cuts. And here we are, the second bill up under urgency\u2014which is going to take many, many days, and it could have been introduced on Monday morning rather than Friday\u2014talking about parking ticket tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, as has been said, this bill was a bit shoddy and it doesn\u2019t really have much of a rationale behind it. The cost recovery impact statement (CRIS), as has been pointed out, said that it took into account private sector fees. That\u2019s all right\u2014private sector fees. You might look at some sort of comparison of what the private sector\u2019s doing, but it\u2019s completely irrelevant. This is about cost recovery, and so even the CRIS couldn\u2019t quite get to grips with what this bill is about. Then it talked about cost pressures, but it doesn\u2019t actually provide any information or any evidence whatsoever that the current 10 percent charge is failing to recover those costs. But the thing that really gets me is that it\u2019s really bad regulation. At a time when we\u2019ve heard huge amounts of hubris, where we\u2019ve got David Seymour spending up a storm setting up his Ministry for Regulation, his citadel of all things good regulation, we\u2019ve got this shoddy little bill coming through, which is clearly just bad regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs colleagues have previously said, this is all about choices. There was a choice to put this up second on the order. There was a choice to show and use this House\u2019s time to do things that actually mattered, just like there was a choice and the ability to not make so many broken promises, as we\u2019ve heard over the last couple of days. So, in all seriousness, let\u2019s just think about that for a minute. For pensioners that are sitting at home thinking to themselves they were going to get some relief, which is such an oxymoron, they\u2019re getting $4.50 a week, and that\u2019s per couple. Then you\u2019ve got minimum wage earners who are earning 50c more an hour. These are the choices that were made. This is the bill we\u2019re debating instead of things that are more serious. If you want to debate things that are serious, why are we here talking about parking ticket taxes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EBut the one that really kicks it for me is the fact that patients were led to believe, over a period of time, that 13 new cancer treatments were going to be available to them. These are real people with real lives, with real diseases, with real hopes, who were led to believe that this was going to happen, and yesterday, during this Budget process, that was ripped out from underneath them, and that is deplorable. But never mind, here we are again talking about parking ticket taxes, something that is completely irrelevant. It is a waste of our time. We\u2019re going to be here for hours looking over something that is the Government\u2019s choice, and I think it\u2019s a complete waste of time. We do not commend it to the House. I look forward to hearing many, many more contributions from that side of the House about how they can justify not just this but all of their actions over the last couple of days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd839bc0430a47eaaa8ff2410fc32597\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd839bc0430a47eaaa8ff2410fc32597\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. The Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill increases the retention by the Government by 4 percent. A small amount, the members across say, but every small amount helps the Government coffers that have been left in dire straits and in shambles, and every little bit helps. This bill will not only help get the Government Budget in balance but it will also engender accountability and responsibility for people to pay their infringements and fines and penalties. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002245701805a937415194f4eff378f75209\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000777\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcd49b0e3add4bee872ad971d4748002\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcd49b0e3add4bee872ad971d4748002\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b79996326ebb454687cc84f5f31c1139\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00227b0bd9373f30469fad387e3669b2666d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b0bd9373f30469fad387e3669b2666d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I move, That the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI would like to thank members for their contributions on this bill in the first reading debate. To recap my earlier speech, the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill makes a minor amendment to the Public Finance Act 1989. This will increase the percentage of local authority and other organisation fines collected by the Ministry of Justice that can be retained by the Crown from 10 percent to 14 percent, with effect from 1\u00A0July\u00A02024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill is an addition to a suite of Orders in Council that will adjust fees in courts and tribunals and fees and costs for collection services to account for inflation since fees were last updated. The increase in the amount retained by the Crown from fines recovered for local authorities and other organisations is comparable to the rates for private debt collection but remains competitive. It is important that local authorities, who receive most of the money collected, should pay a reasonable amount towards the cost of the recovery of these fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe change from 10 percent to 14 percent will come into force on 1\u00A0July\u00A02024, which will realise revenue immediately and contribute to the Government\u2019s Budget goal of delivering a more efficient, effective, and responsive public service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI note members on the other side of the House have been spending their entire debate trying to drag out speeches on a bill which makes a minor but important change to ensure that the functioning of Government can actually be delivered efficiently and that the costs are appropriately recovered\u2014principles of good Government which were ignored for the last six years. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6c00aae48ad4a65a8aa9c42471ddec6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6c00aae48ad4a65a8aa9c42471ddec6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab7cc69d0a3d4488a914b0dd38792fd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab7cc69d0a3d4488a914b0dd38792fd8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, such passion over parking fines; it\u2019s so good to see. Look, the fact of the matter is, the irony of this is, that the premise that the Minister of Local Government brings this to the House with, that there\u2019s been cost inflation in collection, makes no sense on a number of grounds. The most obvious one is that if you\u2019re charging a percentage of something, then there is no cost inflation. As the fines go up, the amounts recovered go up. The documents make it absolutely clear that there\u2019s no research been done on this. The Government doesn\u2019t even know how much it costs to collect these fines. The documents are there on the Table in the cost recovery impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe bill adds another 4 percent levy, so 14 percent, when a local body goes to court to get a parking fine or a noise breach fine or something like that. They\u2019re now going to not get all of the money. They were previously getting 90; they\u2019re now going to get 86. It\u2019s interesting that the Government\u2019s now competing with debt collectors, because in the documentation, they say this is comparable with what a debt collector would charge if they were to collect this debt, as if they\u2019re in the market for debt collection services, which is a very strange way to approach what size you impose on some charge or levy. In fact, it\u2019s not just strange; it\u2019s outright wrong. The idea that there\u2019s a market for it and, therefore, you should pitch it at that market when you\u2019re the Government just makes no sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, when the Government delivers a service, the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee principles, which are really quite useful, are very clear on this matter. The task of the Government when imposing costs of this nature is to determine what the cost delivery is. Now, there\u2019s latitude for when there\u2019s overs and unders in multi-year ebbs and flows, but, at the end of the day, you should never be charging someone an amount which has an extra bit of added fat. But that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019ve heard from Simeon Brown. This is all part of, you know, running a not-too-massive deficit, right? He\u2019s going to impose this extra 4 percent and he\u2019s going to reduce his Government\u2019s deficit by around $200,000. Now, when we get to the committee\u2014of course, we could\u2019ve had a much closer look at this if we\u2019d gone to a select committee, but the time for that kind of examination will come next, and I\u2019m actually going to be asking him some questions, so he might want to get the work done in advance about how he thinks he is going to make this money, because I, frankly, can\u2019t see it. But at the end of the day, this is just hurting ordinary New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe devil, of course, is actually in the regulations which are paired with this piece of legislation where, you know, it talks about increasing the court cost and filing fee from $30 to $55. Now, that\u2019s actually going to raise more money than the levy itself. Also adding to, essentially, the enforcement fee\u2014currently $102; going to $133. Now, as is common with this Government, all of the documentation says, \u201CWe haven\u2019t actually had enough time to work out where the money\u2019s coming from or exactly how much it will bring in, but this is our best guess.\u201D It\u2019s really just not good enough. It\u2019s, essentially, another little tax, because if it\u2019s not shown to be cost recovery, it\u2019s a tax. So here we go, a nice little tax snuck in through urgency. Well, you know, local bodies aren\u2019t going to love you for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EUltimately, particularly around those court costs, people are going to go and say, \u201CYou know, I didn\u2019t park there. It wasn\u2019t a double yellow line.\u201D They\u2019ve got their right to go to court and have their say, and now when they lose, they\u2019re going to be paying more for their right to go to court and ask the question. So that\u2019s actually an access to justice question. What we\u2019re doing is we\u2019re saying, you know, \u201CIf you want to have an argument about whether or not you should pay this $60 fine or this $40 fine, then if you lose, it\u2019s going to cost you a hell of a lot more.\u201D The actual likelihood of people asking the question\u2014legitimate questions\u2014is going to fall, and so that\u2019s really, really unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo the cost recovery impact statement is on the Table, and I would implore members to read it, because it\u2019s actually a useful document, and I actually do commend the Government for making sure it was generated before they came to the House, but what is\u00A0abundantly clear is it\u2019s littered with references to the fact that they haven\u2019t had the time\u00A0to actually work through whether this is appropriate, whether it is actually cost recovery or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cd078018ef74ec8aa2e0d006829d75f\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Hot reckons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f9fcbf367724d65a57cf5ec842e222d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014a hot reckon; thank you, Arena Williams. I believe it is a hot reckon. Actually, it\u2019s just a guess. It\u2019s just a finger in the air, or it\u2019s more of a \u201CWhat do you reckon we could get away with?\u201D That\u2019s really what it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s rushed, and the other thing is, look, it\u2019s absolutely unnecessary for it to be here today. The lion\u2019s share of the increases in revenue are actually outside of the control of Parliament, other than the Regulations Review Committee, because the biggest gains are being made by the increases in the court costs and so on, which is done by Order in Council. But, no, for some reason, and I am perplexed\u2014and I will ask the Minister, when he is obliged to answer, or sort of obliged, why he\u2019s come here when he really didn\u2019t need to. It\u2019s the most trivial of all of the things he could\u2019ve done. So it\u2019s nickel-and-dime stuff, and there\u2019s not really been the work done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn fact, I\u2019ll quote from the information statement, which says there\u2019s limited financial information which provides a reasonable basis for decision making. So it\u2019s just classic bad regulatory practice. It\u2019s making law in the dark and it\u2019s unnecessary and it\u2019s rushed, and, not only that but it\u2019s such a small matter that it would\u2019ve been no problem at all to have it done on another occasion in the normal way. So why it\u2019s been crammed into this urgency, I really don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, the fact of the matter is, even at the 10 percent levy, we already have, as the impact statement says, some councils choosing to use debt collectors because it\u2019s more effective. So the irony is that by increasing this amount, there\u2019s a\u2014well, the economists amongst us would say, as night follows day, more councils will use debt collectors because the Crown has become less competitive. That\u2019s actually not a good thing. I\u2019m not sure we want to be creating an industry of debt collectors who are making money off collecting money for local bodies. You know, I think we should really avoid that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMaybe that\u2019s what this Government wants. Maybe they, you know, want to privatise parking fine recovery. That\u2019s the kind of Government we\u2019ve got. Basically, this is an unfair levy. It doesn\u2019t bear a relationship to the actual costs; it can\u2019t be shown, and that\u2019s something that a Government which has come in with a hiss and a roar, saying, \u201CWe\u2019re going to examine regulation. We\u2019re going to make sure we do things by the book. We\u2019re not going to run fast and loose. We\u2019re not going to\u201D\u2014and, of course, this is exactly, right down the middle, what they rail against: random taxes which aren\u2019t thought through. Here we have it: it\u2019s not shown to be justifiable, it\u2019s not shown to be cost recovery, it hasn\u2019t gone through a good process, and yet, boom, there we have it\u2014in urgency, rammed through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, the percentage amount\u2014you know, the Public Finance Act has been there for a while, and it imposed this 10 percent amount on the basis that across all of the fines, it was roughly enough. Of course, as fines have gone up, so has the amount recovered. I\u00A0am curious\u2014and the Minister will no doubt ask\u2014why he thinks that this will get $400,000-odd in 2025-26 but go to $600,000 in 2028-29. Unless he\u2019s going to get the councils to issue more parking tickets, I just can\u2019t see what his basis is\u2014unless, of course, he\u2019s intending to further increase that percentage amount. Of course, the comparison with private sector fees is entirely inappropriate. The idea that what the Government should charge for a levy is based on what the competition does in the private sector actually cuts fundamentally across what imposing a levy is. Imagine if that\u2019s how Zespri levy, or some other thing. It would\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d7d274fbf34fbba7e2421b2cf07fc1\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Judicial review\u2014judicial review it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d57343ed11a4d4b8fce198f008fc09a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, Parliament isn\u2019t subject to judicial review, but maybe it should be. That\u2019s a whole other constitutional conversation. But, silly little bill, poorly proofed, and I cannot commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8cee961408547ac99ef5895bf8b201d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8cee961408547ac99ef5895bf8b201d\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak against the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. This is almost the only mention of local government in the whole Budget. Minister Brown has talked up a big storm about working with councils, devolving decisions, letting local communities have their say, but what do we have here? We have an ambush, not a partnership between central and local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Justice says: \u201CFinally, the paper does not meet the consultation requirements because the proposals in the paper have not been the subject of any substantial consultation with relevant stakeholders.\u201D There\u2019s the \u201Cconsultation\u201D word again. The Local Government New Zealand chief executive tells me they were only made aware of this, this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f99d7b47954271b3ab5249aa40e54c\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called Budget urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f6d26a59dc4f5cb2786c50b9e3663f\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Is it? Or is it a trivial little ambush\u2014an arrogant ambush for a relatively trivial amount of money? There\u2019s no budget for city or regional deals. There\u2019s no budget for GST back on rates for existing or new properties. There\u2019s no allowance\u2014zero allowance\u2014for paying rates on Government buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205c1070e3bf94b56ba65f8729dc9d827\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Talk about the bill, for goodness\u2019 sake!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5f81d66b78140f5ae3e368c6e9eafeb\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We are in a discussion about urgency during the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263fa82543a2149b594f8ed496bee7418\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. We\u2019ve had the urgency debate already. We\u2019re talking about the specific bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d47b14f510242a9beb643c75e2e5032\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I don\u2019t want a commentary. Continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570b520259f040eb959e879b5dc2886d\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There is a context in which this bill has been proposed and it is not an attractive one. Some people have trivialised the issues of where we have fines and enforcement, but let me give you some examples. Nobody likes paying fines, but they\u2019re avoidable. If we can\u2019t shift cars that are parked on the footpath, that\u2019s an issue for anyone with a pram or a wheelchair. If we can\u2019t shift cars out of bus lanes, that\u2019s an issue of congestion, which I would have thought the Minister in his other hat might have been interested in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203454ac1f7cc4f2495355fb73defe6a9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: How are those cycle lanes helping?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9d3afb34b1476d8ef01484088ed4b2\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: And, yes, it would be a good idea to move the cars out of the cycle lanes\u2014good thinking over there. I think this is cynical and unfair because we are recovering a trivial amount of money for central government, but you are not helping local government recover any of its costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a recent article\u2014I don\u2019t always agree with the third Brown that we\u2019re talking about here. We have Minister Brown, we have MP Wade-Brown, and we also have Mayor Brown, so it can get confusing for people. So you might need to be pay attention as to which Brown we\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b95b5a2c7c144c7595395c08e930ccb2\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s your favourite Brown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221346a14932a44a02882523c75c514fa7\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: OK, we could have a little poll, but at the moment\u2014and this is something that could have been changed. You could have changed this. Auckland Transport can only charge $53.60 for towing, towing off the footpath, towing out of the cycle lane, towing out of the bus lane, towing off the dangerous corner, and the average tow cost is $99.00. You are really not helping local government. You\u2019re getting your measly little extra 4 percent, but you\u2019re not helping local government. There are many other\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f60ab52282b49cc929d19b2e452b646\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s next on the list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb96644cd1d44ad93e19fbb0313291c\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014you can call me \u201CYour Worship\u201D, I don\u2019t mind. I\u2019m sure Mr Foster won\u2019t mind either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3f9ebe51c54c0bafd735ee007efbe0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Where is he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e2cb3c620c34e8bba873b5fa9609970\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a better \u201CYour Worship\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022127054dce7834ad288be111c4bf03ca0\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: So you want to recover all of the central government costs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022216f857098e44504acc0bb0304173798\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t refer to the absence of members in the House\u2014and continue to have a conversation with the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d551b8710bc04f2e85c6e82c12034524\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Through the Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223022efd9e53e48e2b0fa93f7134c69f7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267134ec87dfa4d478f7d3e6bbadd8658\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014this Government wishes to recover its pathetic little recovery costs, but there\u2019s no partnership. In fact, there\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c14cf52a9a794de3bd0711c127f91282\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s an ambush!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0f4bbd5e6374b16b28a6b4fdb86b758\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s lovely to have the help from the Opposition or even the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f04a9ecb5fd433cb7952cc429102767\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re just being horrible. Keep going Celia\u2014keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb1f113ff5df4c719f176bb994e37e1d\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I shall, I shall. What are fines for? What are the courts for? They are when people want to go and argue the case\u2014and we do need to recover the costs. There\u2019s no disagreement about that. But why recover central government costs? Why focus on that? Why not support the councils? Whether they\u2019re unitary, whether they\u2019re regional, whether they\u2019re city, whether they\u2019re district, they all have issues that need enforcement. It might be dumping\u2014it might be dumping rubbish into reserves. Oh, we don\u2019t want to condone that. But where are you helping local government to recover all of its costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003ESo we have councils, 76 of them, who already don\u2019t quite agree with some of the things that this Government\u2019s promoting. Why not form a bit of a partnership? Why not at least talk to them about how we can work together to bring the enforcement into a more even and effective system? It\u2019s cynical, unfair, and I think it shows perhaps a lack of understanding of the needs of local government. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228529fa40ffc04af4be2994f221ae9f1b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair and go for a kai. The House will resume at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b95ad37c33044f5f873f1bcf69bff9ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b95ad37c33044f5f873f1bcf69bff9ec\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we are up to the second reading of the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. We\u2019re up to call No. 4, which is the ACT Party call. I call Parmjeet Parmar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e74638944dca4eb593900dd1e9c841ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e74638944dca4eb593900dd1e9c841ab\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am taking this call on behalf of ACT to support the second reading of the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. This is a sensible bill, and it shows that this coalition Government\u2014that is, National, ACT, and New Zealand First\u2014really wants to see that our public services are financially sustainable. We know that this is about the amount that is retained by the Crown from the collection services that are\u00A0delivered by court for local authorities and organisations. This is going to be increased from 10 percent to 14 percent. The last time this price was set, which was at 10 percent, was in 1989; so it\u2019s been around 35 years. It\u2019s been a long time, and what it does is bring\u00A0it\u00A0in line with what private debt collectors charge. It is a very sensible policy, and I think we should all support this bill. The ACT Party is supporting this bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b56b5adad139497c8a62dc5544be4a4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b56b5adad139497c8a62dc5544be4a4e\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. Now, it makes a minor but very important to the Public Finance Act 1989. It\u2019s common sense, and as I said in the previous reading, anything that is common sense New Zealand First will support. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002262ddc37cd6214ddda18a092d9f008615\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262ddc37cd6214ddda18a092d9f008615\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a privilege to take this call and I\u2019m very happy to do so. My call will be short, but I want to make some important points\u00A0about this ridiculous bill that absolutely is not worth our time in urgency. This Minister has come down to the House and he has asked us to sit here on a Friday when we could otherwise be in our electorate serving our constituents and talking to them about\u00A0their concerns when it is Budget week, whereas, instead, we are dealing with parking fine taxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f460d93551ce4387b515925d6eaade43\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t be so workshy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022010bd2b719e8427ba74741091fc44ecc\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: This Minister is in charge of it too. He\u2019s not the justice Minister but he is the Minister who cost his finance Minister about $1.5 million from the land transport plan. When did that happen? Was that at the Transport and Infrastructure Committee? Who was on that? Remind me how much that cost. Was it about\u2014I don\u2019t know\u20141.5 over the forecast period? Is this how much this bill saves? Good on that Minister for finding savings, but, unfortunately, those savings are coming straight out of the pockets of ratepayers, straight out of the pockets of mayors and councils that that Minister got on the stump at election time and said he would be fighting for. He told local councils around this country that he would be on their side, yet here he\u2019s on their side reaching into their pockets to pull out another 4 percent of the costs that they are levying on ratepayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the approach of this Government. It\u2019s to make sure that the Government is getting more of people\u2019s money so that they can announce it on Budget day as a tax cut. Well, good on that Minister! At least he made up for it when I spox\u2019ed him at the select committee. So I am going to be raising some issues at this committee stage. [Interruption] It will be a lively committee stage debate, you can see, because there are a number of Government members who want to contribute just in my call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m going to get to is it\u2019s sort of about the reasons why one would charge a levy or a fee. I want to start to unpack why this isn\u2019t in fact a fee\u2014it\u2019s more like a penalty that\u2019s being imposed on people\u2014and why this isn\u2019t the appropriate way to do it, in legislation. The cost recovery statement that we\u2019ve been provided with does go into that and, as some of my colleagues have spoken about, this shouldn\u2019t be thought of as pure cost recovery, because it\u2019s not. Because we haven\u2019t had any policy advice about whether that 10 percent that is levied now does in fact not meet the costs to actually recover the debt. If that\u2019s the case, if it was in fact a bright idea from this Minister to make up for some of the costs, then that\u2019s not actually cost recovery. It\u2019s being levied on councils, who ultimately pass it on to ratepayers, who are exactly the same people who would otherwise benefit from other savings. So it\u2019s just passing costs here to people out there to pay, and that\u2019s not actually what the cost recovery mechanisms should be used for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll also be asking some questions around whether it\u2019s reasonable that local government should pay more for the collection of these fines, given that they already have a mechanism to increase the actual dollar amount, which is through the Orders in Council. It is important that local councils are able to levy fines. You create some certain policy outcomes by only\u00A0allowing very, very small fines, and you create certain policy outcomes by levying larger fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ECelia Wade-Brown made an excellent contribution, which was continuously interrupted by that side of the House, about why, for instance, with parking fines, you create a certain policy outcome if they are artificially low. So there are reasons why you might want councils to be able to levy appropriately high fines in that situation, but then there isn\u2019t necessarily a policy rationale for why\u2014on those fines, when the cost of recovery will go up in dollar amounts, if that cost also rises because it is a proportional amount\u2014you would then need to increase the proportion as well. I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll tease that out in the select committee stage\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286891c1c08ab4b3f8f4b3d993930c8de\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m looking forward to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221197db723af34955aad5232999eb3e20\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and we are looking forward to that, as my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking says. Parking fines are something which actually do change consumer behaviour. They are something which affect the way that our cities feel, so it is useful for us to really get into the detail of what the rationale is for charging those fines, which is very different from why you would charge court fees. Court fees raise all sorts of access to justice issues, and there are also different policy rationales for that. This bill uses a blunt instrument to treat them as if they\u2019re both the same, and that is the wrong way to do this. So I cannot commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0b9f2f7413045dd955d1b86a3dc8fb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0b9f2f7413045dd955d1b86a3dc8fb7\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Before I begin my contribution, I just want to acknowledge my colleague Celia Wade-Brown, who was making some really important contributions\u2014particularly around the work that central and local government are yet to do together. I think it really speaks to the other side of the House, because I was paying attention to the interjections. It really speaks to the approach around this from the other side of the House when they would rather mock style than substance, and when they themselves are making 12-second contributions because they cannot substantiate the bills that they\u2019re putting forward, because they just want to go home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFor a party that talks about hard-working Kiwis and yet are not able to work hard to back up their shabby bills, I think they owe the public a bit of respect when it comes to, for example, this nonsense of a bill. All it will do is actually deprive local government\u2014it will continue to widen the divide both in relationship but, actually, in resources of central and local government. It says a lot that this bill was introduced under urgency at a time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6d2dea009204c118e1812959cb1dd06\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Efficiency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022810eea461b284372af2680ba0b21ce88\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014when actually we should\u2014it\u2019s not efficiency. I want to pick up on that comment, because this Government thinks, as we have debated through urgency, that doing poor, non-robust work to produce legislation is efficiency. They think that putting bills that ultimately impact those who have the least resources the most amounts to efficiency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe reality is that they\u2019re so desperate to create savings that they\u2019re scraping the bottom of the barrel, putting legislation in place that touches actually on a subset of criminal offences that, as has been well traversed, impact low-income communities the hardest. This is something that is reflected in the regulatory impact statement, and the members haven\u2019t been able to give contributions as to the substance of this. So I think it\u2019s really important that we contextualise this bill, as I said before, in the broader Budget, a Budget that is cake for those who have it well, and crumbs for everyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI want to go back to the regulatory impact statement. They talked about not just low-income people but M\u0101ori, Pasifika, disabled people, and other communities who are most disproportionately impacted\u2014and young people as well. In fact, the criminal offences that we\u2019re going to touch on here\u2014or the subset of those\u2014affect young people the most. People with fine debts are also, as stated in the regulatory impact statement, more likely to be under 45. In fact, 73 percent of those are aged under 45. When we look at, for example, the previous bill that we were discussing, it\u2019s easy to see why this is not just an attack on the poor but also an attack on young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EYes, fines can sometimes play a role in changing behaviour, but we have to remember that fines, at the end of the day\u2014because they\u2019re basically a flat amount and they\u2019re not actually increased by your income\u2014are basically a free pass for those who can afford to pay them. So when it comes to changing behaviour, we have to also remember that, ultimately, it\u2019s not just the behaviour that changes; it could actually result in people being put in a position of hardship. Whereas if the members to my left commit anything that results in them having to have these fines, it amounts to nothing. They don\u2019t have to make any tough choices to pay these fines. But, for somebody who\u2019s on benefit\u2014a disabled person who relies on income support\u2014and receives those fines, actually, it can be the difference between putting food on the table or paying the rent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m seeing frowns on the left side of the House, but the reality is this shows their disregard for the communities least benefiting from the tax cuts yet most affected by this unserious piece of legislation, this desperate, desperate attempt at producing savings from a Government that is ruling for the wealthy few but not the many. The Green Party will continue opposing this bill and calling out the absurd behaviour from a Government that is absolutely fiscally irresponsible. Rather than seriously investing in public services that reduce the cost of living, like free healthcare and free education, they\u2019re actually cutting back subsidies, putting out this shamble of legislation and actually exacerbating the cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00227b944cb06a75449286e2c589b18292bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b944cb06a75449286e2c589b18292bc\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E We are witnessing the decline of the once-great workers\u2019 party. Not content, in Government, with reaching into the pockets of New Zealanders and taking their tax, they now, in Opposition, want to reach into the pockets of working New Zealanders and take their tax relief. This is a very simple bill. It takes cost recovery from 10 percent to 14 percent to deal with the rampant inflation made under the previous Government. It\u2019s a bill by a great Minister, shepherded by a great Minister. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7d5bf1b39154ab2bf84371e3e467670\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7d5bf1b39154ab2bf84371e3e467670\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just before we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e67d1bb891043adba088c67ff86117f\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Read the title!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeceab4ac7724987afaad80eea0b5628\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I won\u2019t do that. Just before we start, though, I thought that was an interesting comment made by James Meager across the aisle about it being somehow something to do with inflation, when we\u2019ve just traversed this topic about it being proportional, which makes absolutely no sense\u2014but that shouldn\u2019t be surprising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThinking about this bill again\u2014and, honestly, I almost had a wee yawn when I stood up, because I thought to myself, \u201CHow much attention can we pay to this silly little bill on a Friday night?\u201D But, as it happens, I\u2019m prepared to spend a good nine and a half minutes talking about it. The contributions from the other side, from the Government, have been quite revealing, I think, haven\u2019t they? They haven\u2019t really been able to justify. When they have made contributions, they\u2019ve been a little bit erroneous. They keep just saying that it\u2019s important. As my colleague Riccardo Men\u00E9ndez March has just said, we do have to take this in the context of the Budget, and we should be able to do that, because that\u2019s what this Government has done\u2014but to put it at number two in their line-up of important things to go through during an urgency period! So we have to think of it in the context of the overall Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen I think of the overall Budget, the first thing that comes to mind, again, is the fact that it\u2019s all about broken promises. There were heaps and heaps and heaps of families yesterday who were expecting to get a $250 tax cut. That\u2019s just simply not going to happen. For most people, for those families, it\u2019s around $60 to $70 a fortnight. Then there\u2019s the pensioners\u2014a couple; two pensioners\u2014$4.50 a week. But the thing that\u2019s galling, the thing that\u2019s really, really galling, is the $3 billion taken out of climate funding. When you think of all the damage that that does, the fact that we\u2019re sitting here talking about parking ticket tax at this time of night feel like a little bit of a parallel universe, doesn\u2019t it? So let\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e6b51747ba145718b8ad24b442bf8ef\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Well, sit down, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242ccd7020aaa4df29d09ab19f54623d0\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I won\u2019t sit down. Let\u2019s have a deep dive into what this bill does. It kind of feels to me that the Government backbench MPs don\u2019t know what this is about, so let\u2019s just go through some details. The bill enables the Government to take an extra 4 percent on top of the existing 10 percent when it collects fines on behalf of local bodies. Now, it\u2019s anticipated that other costs such as collection fees imposed on citizens will be increased by regulation. That\u2019s nothing to sniff at; that\u2019s something that I think we should think about a little more deeply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, some may say that this is a money grab; it\u2019s an effective tax on local bodies. I think so too. Taking money that would go to local authorities to meet the cost of tax cuts, and that\u2019s what it is all about, isn\u2019t it? As we\u2019ve heard tonight, it\u2019s like they went through line by line and decided what random thing could they squeeze a little bit of money out of, and by little\u2014and I do mean little: it\u2019s trivial; it\u2019s a ridiculous amount of money in terms of the Government\u2019s coffers, but it does mean a lot in terms of local government. [Interruption] And you\u2019re right, Kieran McAnulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9f3ea1380b5457dae95c3b78af9c456\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd6c62e16f343e4b8c877b00a186e77\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I know you know! Look, the increased costs will ultimately be borne by the people that pay these fines. As we\u2019ve also heard tonight, we know that, disproportionately, it\u2019s often the people who have the least that end up in situations, because vulnerability begets more vulnerability, where they incur fines. Once those increases are made, therefore they do that more tough. So in a Budget that\u2019s already hit those very same people in the pocket, it\u2019s hit those very same people in terms of their high expectations, the promises that they were sold, so to turn around and have the second thing that comes through this House tonight under urgency being an increase to fines feels a bit rich, doesn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, the cost recovery impact statement, which is an interesting document\u2014it\u2019s several pages long and we can probably have a look through that as well; it\u2019s got some good tables and some figures. But, briefly, the cost recovery impact statement, which is like a regulatory impact statement\u2014it\u2019s like a RIS but it\u2019s a CIS\u2014it highlights several things, and if we were to truncate that and to summarise it, so to speak, the main things it highlights is the fact that this is not a problem and somehow we\u2019re trying to fix something that doesn\u2019t need fixing. It\u2019s also got no information. It states, through the CIS, that there\u2019s almost no evidence to base this on. There\u2019s no evidence to show us that the 10 percent fee that currently exists isn\u2019t doing its job, that it isn\u2019t covering the costs of making those recoveries. This is just a means by which this Government has gone, \u201CI tell you what: here\u2019s a bit of something that hasn\u2019t been increased for a while. We\u2019ll hoick that up 40\u00A0percent, and that\u2019ll make us a little bit of extra money because we\u2019ve got to pay for those tax cuts.\u201D that Nicola Willis and Chris Luxon bet their reputations on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that clearly this is rushed, isn\u2019t it? It\u2019s rushed and it\u2019s unnecessary. As my colleague the Hon Duncan Webb said earlier, it\u2019s, essentially, nickel-and-dime stuff, isn\u2019t it? It feels a bit trivial. It feels quite trivial to even be having these conversations, but yet here we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the CIS makes clear is that, as I said, there\u2019s limited information\u2014certainly limited financial information above which we would be making those decisions. So, clearly, this is kind of a pre-determined thing just to find money, so it certainly doesn\u2019t make sense. The other thing that I think was quite notable, when you look through the information, through the CIS, is that I think you have to be really wary, because it\u2019s kind of a move to shift the recovery of fines\u2014well, you\u2019ve got to ask yourself: when the Government is making comparison between what the private sector is doing\u2014and by the private sector we mean debt collectors\u2014and when they\u2019re saying, \u201COK, what are debt collectors doing out there? OK, they\u2019re getting away with this much, let\u2019s see if we can kind of, you know, meet them.\u201D, as my colleague the Hon Kieran McAnulty said earlier. It\u2019s like the State\u2019s joining the market\u2014the debt collector market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f42bbd259e00499d859d1b5c5d979f97\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Or the mafia!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e2ea4dee1249129652ed8357fdb31f\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Or the mafia. But I think the question is, once you get over that and think to yourself, \u201CWhere could this be leading?\u201D Is it a move to shift the recovery of fines completely to that private sector? Is the Government, at some point, just going to go, \u201CLet\u2019s just quit with this.\u201D, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228820e1d36bda455dbfb0441fac5a70e5\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a theme\u2014there\u2019s a theme!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022889aa82ecd624952aa37bf688270eb24\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yeah\u2014just head in that direction altogether? So, you know, if the mandatory charge of Government collection is outrageous, or it\u2019s either an unfair levy\u2014or it\u2019s kind of like privatisation by stealth, really, isn\u2019t it, and that\u2019s something we have to keep our eye on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs I said when I first made my contribution, the percentage amount bears absolutely no relationship to the amount of the fine, and I think that\u2019s something also worth noting. So, regardless of whether the fine is $100 or it\u2019s a thousand dollars, the percentage amount bears absolutely no relationship to that amount. Again, when we look at the CIS, it totally avoids whether the increase is needed for efficiency. This Government, for all their flaws\u2014and they certainly rate themselves as economic geniuses, and we\u2019ve never really seen much proof to be able to highlight the efficacy of those claims. But for all of their flaws, they do at least talk about efficiency and the need to favour efficiency and the need to look towards efficient uses. This thing does absolutely nothing in that direction. It\u2019s yet another example of where efficiency is just a buzzword, and when the proof comes to the pudding, it\u2019s all just hot air and nothing actually happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI think that when we think about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b62d47b4d14edbb9c53ab226620f87\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: They want to go home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be567888fb6442ddbca59b3222789632\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: They do want to go home. But when we think about the progress of this bill, obviously this is the second reading and we\u2019ll be heading into the committee of the whole House after this, and my colleague Arena Williams has already intimated that she\u2019s got several pressing questions that she wants to ventilate and to prosecute, and she\u2019s going to, I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289bfe7c1ba1641f186d60a95f683ba54\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: And she will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022045644be1b4e4320881755c92e5d7db0\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: And she will. She\u2019s looking forward to doing that very much, I can imagine, and it\u2019s a meaty thing to have to talk about!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EBut here we are, coming towards the end of the second reading, and, again, let me just highlight: this is about choices. There were always choices in this Budget. We have to think about this stupid little piece of legislation, this stupid little bill, in the context of the wider Budget, which I think most New Zealanders will be sitting there tonight feeling pretty disappointed in what they were sold and what the reality was. So, on that basis, I certainly do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00227afe741ee24a4767b6900c957ec86a00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227afe741ee24a4767b6900c957ec86a00\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Here we have the Labour Party suddenly concerned about costs! It\u2019s suddenly concerned about costs, but what did they vote against just a couple of moments ago? The tax cuts that 83 percent of workers would benefit from; 93 percent of households would benefit, and they voted against tax cuts for low to middle income workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EAs Mr Meager has said, this is a small cost recovery adjustment, making this small amendment to the Public Finance Act 1989. The previous speaker, Dr Tracey McLellan, says they can\u2019t justify it. Well, I\u2019ll tell you how they justify it: the fee has not increased since 1989. The increase from 10 percent to 14 percent is much, much less than inflation since then\u2014136 percent. This is very, very small. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00223ba328dccd8b4439b9dd33867638495a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ba328dccd8b4439b9dd33867638495a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just for those who are watching at home, you may not be able to hear the kind of tone in the House or the gibes from the other side, but it\u2019s a bit of a shame when they are\u2014it feels like a bit of a classroom or a school assembly, and people are shouting and joking, when actually the legislation we\u2019ve had in the House today has got real impacts on real people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge, as the spokesperson for seniors, retired couples, who are the biggest losers. I am going to bring this back to this bill because they are impacted by this. As Dr Tracey McLellan said, they were expecting $13 a week before the Budget. They\u2019re now going to be getting $2.15 each a week if they\u2019re a superannuitant couple. This bill\u2014even though it\u2019s a silly little bill\u2014it\u2019s actually tax by stealth. It will impact those people. It\u2019s quite desperate, because they haven\u2019t been able to fund their tax cuts, despite\u2014it was bizarre when somebody in the House today said that they didn\u2019t use borrowing to pay for the tax cuts, because, in fact, they have borrowed $12 billion to pay for $14.7 billion of tax cuts. So they clearly haven\u2019t read their legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis bill is bad law and it\u2019s unfair. The reason it\u2019s bad law is because, first of all, I\u2019d say it\u2019s a tax, but technically they\u2019re calling it a levy. Now, it\u2019s not a levy. If you look at it technically, it\u2019s a fee, because it is targeted. A levy cuts across users and a fee is targeted. But it\u2019s, really, at the end of the day, a tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat irks me is that this applies to strict liability offences. This means that when somebody goes down the road, parks their car too late, they are guilty until proven innocent. It reverses the burden of proof. Now, that\u2019s really unusual in our parliamentary system. So that in itself should be a reason why this should be going to select committee. It\u2019s a reason why it shouldn\u2019t be done under urgency. Any time that we\u2019re using urgency and this process to bring into being a change where somebody is guilty till proven innocent on the burden of proof is just bad lawmaking when it comes to jurisprudence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also the impact that it will have on marginalised communities, including M\u0101ori and Pacific. The costs will be passed on. There is no way that councils are going to sit here and have the Government do their big reach into their pocket and do their money grab and not pass those costs on. They will pass them on to the people who can least afford to pay it. Now, if we look at who\u2019s been really impacted by these cuts that the Government has made by these types of bills, it is, as the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022463a4980412644c0966428d5b9a694a1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member. It is becoming difficult to hear from up here. There are quite a few separate conversations going on in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ac3ece0cd9446949e90ec721279982f\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Would you give me another five\u00A0minutes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979316c48a4e457db302b7175b2b1e70\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve stopped the clock. I\u2019ll restart it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a79eea9a288e47f19797dcb7eabc22e4\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d be very keen to extrapolate. I\u2019m sure that people couldn\u2019t hear any of it, to be honest. But anyway, I\u2019ll carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe Hon Kieran McAnulty talked about the rates going up and the fact that this is another way of the Government kind of throwing councils under the bus, because it will be councils that will increase their fines, that will pass that on to the people who are fined. When I look at what\u2019s happening in my electorate in Clutha, we\u2019ve got the mayor there saying, basically, the way the rates are going up because of what\u2019s happened under three waters and the fact that the water reforms that this Government is requiring councils to now pay, when we had a solution for them\u2014those rates are going up between 14 and 20\u00A0percent. Superannuitants in my electorate are paying up to 20 percent of their income into rates. So when I talk about superannuitants being the biggest losers under the Budget, and I talk about the impact that this type of legislation has, it\u2019s very, very real for them. The costs that will be passed on because they maybe get a fine or they pay their fine slightly late and costs are added, there is no way that councils will not pass those on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo this is more bad news for superannuitants. It\u2019s more bad news for councils, who are going to seem like the bad people here when, in fact, it\u2019s the Government throwing them under the bus. Why? Because they didn\u2019t cost out their tax cuts, because they\u2019re desperately trying to find little pinchy ways to try and get their coffers adding up, and they\u2019re doing it in urgency when they haven\u2019t thought through how they\u2019re going to get a decent amount of money in a proper legislative way. It\u2019s bad lawmaking, as the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has said. There is no rationale for the 10 percent that\u2019s been justified through the private market. In fact, if we look at what the cost recovery impact statement says, it says that a fee is only justifiable when it\u2019s fair and appropriate. So is it based on the dollar amount? Is it based on the volume? There\u2019s no justification. There\u2019s no evidence. It\u2019s a silly piece of law and I\u2019m not supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u00223f6123424d2a48d6b86814f47f82958c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f6123424d2a48d6b86814f47f82958c\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. So many words have been said. It\u2019s a simple bill. Ten percent to 14 percent; 4 percent increase in Crown retention. The Opposition say that \u201CThis is trivial; it\u2019s small money.\u201D, but to a fiscally responsible Government every dollar counts. We commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00225b40175cec1540ce98ed2aacf5371636\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b40175cec1540ce98ed2aacf5371636\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now, it is quite bizarre that the day after the Budget, following what was a very long debate on the tax bill, this is the second bill that the Government puts up. This is what they want to put forward for New Zealanders. This is why they\u2019re here on a Friday night. It\u2019s because they want to charge people more for the cost recovery of their parking fines. I mean, we\u2019re really, really focusing on the big issues, aren\u2019t we? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI mean, they could have put a bill up tonight about how they\u2019re going to move forward on funding cancer drugs. That would have been a better option. They could have put a bill forward about how they\u2019re going to fund more public houses. That would have been a good bill. But no, none of these things. Instead, they have a parking ticket tax to bring to the House on a Friday night. I hope those people who are listening on a Friday night will be hearing that the Government\u2019s major priority after tax is to add a new tax through a parking ticket tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc754a25898845a590ac413e5cd8cba9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Those people should write to their MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022229ab257c527474b838d244ab0a224bb\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: They should write to their MP. I mean, one person has actually written to me tonight, calling the tax cuts a complete laugh. I won\u2019t go into the full email because it\u2019s actually quite depressing for that person. That is the kind of person who could well and truly be hit by this increase in the cost recovery of a parking ticket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo the Government\u2019s priorities are all over the shop. Then they\u2019re trying to blame cost pressures for this. Now, what\u2019s caused the biggest issue around cost pressures? Just looking here at the cost recovery impact statement, the biggest issue actually is cuts\u2014cuts from that Government side where they\u2019ve said, \u201CWhat we\u2019re going to do is we\u2019re going to borrow and we\u2019re going to cut so that we can give out unaffordable tax cuts to landlords.\u201D Then what they\u2019re going to do is introduce a nice sneaky little bill straight after the income tax debate called the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. What this bill will do\u2014it will create this nice little parking ticket tax and it will enable the Government to take an extra 4 percent where it collects fines on behalf of local bodies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ENow, this is a Government that has, as other speakers have said, gone around the country and said, \u201CLocal government, we love you. We\u2019re going to do some things for Auckland\u2019s water. We\u2019re not quite sure how it\u2019ll work for the rest of the country, but we\u2019ll probably figure that out later. Let\u2019s see what happens. We\u2019re going to help you out here, but oh, by the way, here\u2019s another little cost. Here\u2019s another little cost for you to have to gather more revenue for us.\u201D Actually, when I talk to local councils, one of the things I hear is the frustration from councils when costs are imposed unnecessarily by central government. This is actually an unnecessary addition to costs that councils have to collect on behalf of central government. I actually don\u2019t think it\u2019s OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhen you look further at the cost recovery impact statement\u2014you know, we\u2019ve heard from people. I\u2019ve had emails from people who are literally only getting $2 a week in their tax cut. It is those people who will be disproportionately affected, if you read through. [Interruption] It\u2019s interesting that the other side love to have a bit of a chat when we\u2019re chatting, but they don\u2019t actually\u2014I mean, when they do their own calls, they could stand\u00A0up and say all these things in a call, right? I mean, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve probably done a 10-minute call of interjections. Why don\u2019t you just do the 10-minute call? I mean, it\u2019s just a suggestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of the things that the cost recovery impact statement has made really clear is that this bill will disproportionately impact low-income New Zealanders. Actually, that\u2019s really serious, because a lot of the changes that have been made through this Budget will disproportionately impact low-income New Zealanders\u2014things like removing free prescriptions; things like another transport matter, things like removing free public transport for young people. All of these things are placing the burden on to people who actually have lower incomes disproportionately while they\u2019ve given $2.9 billion worth of tax cuts for landlords. So it just shows the Government\u2019s priorities. I think the Government priorities are massively, massively out of whack. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhat it also made clear, when you read through\u2014I mean, you could, instead of talking amongst yourselves, you could actually have a read of this cost recovery impact statement. It\u2019s quite interesting. One of the things is that the increase has been rushed. There has been limited financial information for this process. So it\u2019s like the Government has thought to itself, \u201CHeck, we\u2019ve promised these tax cuts. We\u2019ve staked our claim on it. We\u2019ve said we\u2019ll resign if we don\u2019t do it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ff0582459a43e59737936d980dcfa0\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: And we delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245307b8df00c4d49a930566217e58544\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you did? Yes, you did. Seeing as you\u2019ve mentioned the delivery of the tax cuts, I might just mention this person who said to me, \u201CA complete laugh. As a single person living alone in hardship, I will get little to no benefit. With the reinstatement of prescription charges I am losing even more money. I have eight to 10\u00A0drugs each time, at a charge of $5 each item\u2014more nails in my coffin. I\u2019m struggling and just hate life at the moment. I\u2019ve worked hard for many years. Everything I have had is nearly all gone.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EMaybe the members opposite actually should listen to the response from the New Zealand public to the changes that they have introduced. Again, I say, after making changes that actually proportionately impact on the wealthiest, those who own multiple investment properties, they then said, \u201CThe next thing that we\u2019re going to do is introduce this nasty little parking ticket tax.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI also remind members opposite that this Government promised no new taxes, and yet transport seems to be the one where they\u2019re thinking, \u201CHey, we could find a few little curly ones here.\u201D For some reason, it\u2019s transport that\u2019s getting hit with these. We\u2019re going to pay more to register our car. We\u2019re going to have some massive increases in the future into some of the levies that are taken, and then we\u2019re going to do this nasty little thing for people who get a parking fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve had parking fines\u2014[Interruption] Absolutely. I know; very outrageous. I mean, come on; who in this House hasn\u2019t had a parking fine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291d4522432714e8699cc16394a0bc72a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Celia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022010ca49f2c9e477eac1704ddd4fee69b\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Who hasn\u2019t? Who hasn\u2019t?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e56f5251e99c4fe6a3fc9fc1993e23a5\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Celia only rides bikes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acdee479f85e43f982420997f1cbdf25\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Celia Wade-Brown hasn\u2019t had a parking fine. Well done, Celia Wade-Brown. That\u2019s impressive. I mean, I\u2019ve had parking fines. Recently, my husband got a phone call from the Ministry of Justice to say that he hadn\u2019t paid a parking fine from around 20 years ago, which he\u2019d never actually seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a977c8e77d84eb3a149bdb99ef10f36\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5d2e6419f7f4e19bb4b800b0c28a4e1\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, he\u2019s a very honest man, my husband. Actually, it ended up that he had paid it, but it hadn\u2019t made its way through the system. But the reality is that many, many, many of us\u2014many, many, many of us\u2014have had parking fines. We know what happens when we overstay in our car park. As MPs, our meetings often go over. Then when those situations occur, if you don\u2019t pay your fine on time, that\u2019s when the cost recovery costs come along. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWe know that it\u2019s people on low incomes. We know that it\u2019s those people who live week to week. We know it\u2019s those people who think, \u201CActually, it\u2019s going to be tough to fill the car this week. It\u2019s going to be tough to pay the rent or the mortgage this week.\u201D\u2014those are the people who will often make the decision that they\u2019re actually going to delay paying the parking fine. Unlike us, if I get a parking fine, I\u2019ll pay it within a day or two, because I\u2019m diligent\u2014very, very diligent. But it\u2019s also acknowledging that I have the ability to pay for that parking fine as soon as I get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThat email from my constituent tonight was really sobering, because it just showed that this Government has its priorities all wrong. It\u2019s basically blaming cost pressures on departments that they have cut the budgets for and they\u2019re moving to more of a user-pays model with this lovely, lovely little parking ticket tax where they had promised no new taxes. Instead, what we\u2019re seeing is a priority from this Government. As soon as they passed the income tax Act tonight, they said, \u201CRight, we\u2019re going to get into this really, really, really important bill.\u201D This is the most important thing for this Government to be working on on a Friday night. It\u2019s those most vulnerable people who will be disproportionately affected, who don\u2019t pay their fines on time, who will end up having to pay significantly more at a greater cost to them and to councils. It\u2019s a terrible little bill from a terrible Government that\u2019s not standing up for working people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022c37eb84cfdcd4b6ab98cfe1679f1e7ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c37eb84cfdcd4b6ab98cfe1679f1e7ad\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, this bill, the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, has been referred to by people across the floor as a pathetic little bill\u2014trivial, nickel-and-dime stuff, a silly piece of law. Why? Because it\u2019s generating about $400,000 only, they say. I mean, that may be less than what they spent on a slippery slide once upon a time, but $400,000 will go a long way to community organisations. $300,000 went a long way recently for the\u00A0Takanini Gurdwara in my electorate of Takanini. It refurbished their kitchen, which feeds thousands of people per week. It\u2019s not trivial. It\u2019s not pathetic. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226a0b1c22c6134f46bf2860eaa3ff014c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000913\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227c925c33b9e34e839489282a24014286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c925c33b9e34e839489282a24014286\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f6c13d96d8a440e8f49aa01174b25dc\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220fa6859a2982428ab314d769322c1b1b\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002264c33d911a294968988a5065b090524b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264c33d911a294968988a5065b090524b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. Members, we come first to clause 1. This is the debate on clause 1, the title. The question is that clause\u00A01 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002292c5c35321794e06b0993ea14d04f4e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292c5c35321794e06b0993ea14d04f4e4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This bill is named the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill because that is exactly what it does. Ultimately, that is the bill, which seeks to increase the amount which recoverable from the collection of fines from 10\u00A0percent to 14 percent and is very clear: what\u2019s in the tin is what\u2019s on the tin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227eabcac3bdeb4b178ab7986ce62e7332\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227eabcac3bdeb4b178ab7986ce62e7332\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, I\u2019m afraid I can\u2019t agree with the Minister on that front: it doesn\u2019t really tell you anything that it does. The Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill sort of points loosely towards collection costs, but it certainly doesn\u2019t actually say what the bill does, which is to increase costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EYou will no doubt have seen, and I\u2019m imagining you\u2019ll agree with, my Amendment Paper on that matter. My suggestion is that we actually do call it what it is, which is the \u201CPublic Finance (Increase of Charges for Local Body Debt Collection) Amendment Act 2024\u201D, because that\u2019s exactly what\u2019s going on. We are increasing charges being imposed on local bodies, and I think it\u2019s important to recognise that this isn\u2019t the case that the Crown, other than the provision of a court service, which is what every citizen is entitled to have at their disposal\u2014this isn\u2019t the provision of any particular service. It\u2019s actually a bit fatuous to say that this is a charge for services delivered, because the court framework is just a critical part of Government infrastructure. We\u2019ll be starting charging people for parliamentary services next\u2014it\u2019s that kind of constitutional significance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, really, I think if we\u2019re going to debate the title\u2014and we are\u2014then the appropriate title is to actually refer to the fact that this is a charge for the use of the judicial system as a means of debt enforcement, and we\u2019re increasing it. You could, of course, just say that it\u2019s a tax on local bodies\u2014and we\u2019ve said before, it\u2019s, essentially, a parking fine tax. The parking fines are bad enough, but I know that, certainly in my electorate, Wilson Parking has a lot to answer for. But, in fact, this is of the same ilk in the sense that it\u2019s adding an\u00A0extra layer on top of the additional charges. So we really should call it what it is and\u00A0not\u00A0hide behind some weasel word \u201CPublic Finance (Collection Costs)\u201D; it\u2019s the \u201CPublic Finance (Increase in Collection Costs)\u201D and that\u2019s absolutely what we should be calling it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, we could call it, as I\u2019ve said, a parking fine tax or a money grab, but I think I have heard come from the Chair from time to time that titles of that nature, whilst I think it was deadly serious, sometimes the Chair sets them aside as being perhaps ironic or something like that. But I know the wise Chair that we have now surely wouldn\u2019t be doing anything like that. Certainly, an increase of charges for local body debt collection is\u00A0absolutely straight down the line, and I hope that the Minister will, in fact, agree to that\u00A0change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, I have a number of other Amendment Papers. I don\u2019t think they\u2019re on this clause at the moment, so\u2014but you never know, I might have one there and I know some of my colleagues want to speak on this matter as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002238b951909695441ba00e4536343dd38c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238b951909695441ba00e4536343dd38c\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I don\u2019t want to disagree with my very learned colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, but I do have a little bit of an issue with the word \u201Ccollection\u201D and also \u201Ccosts\u201D, actually, and I wonder if the Minister can explain why, in the title, the word \u201Ccollection\u201D would be appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen I think of the word \u201Ccollection\u201D, it involves an active activity; it\u2019s about collecting; it is about doing something. Whereas, my understanding of this bill is that the Crown is really a passive recipient of money that is being gained through other means\u2014I mean, certainly through the judicial process, as Dr Webb has alluded to. So I just am\u00A0not sure that the word \u201Ccollection\u201D is correct. It\u2019s possibly a little bit misleading, because it implies that there is some kind of active activity happening that is going to justify a change in the Public Finance Act. We must remember that the Public Finance Act is one\u00A0of the key foundations of our financial system. It\u2019s not something we do lightly. So if we\u2019re going to have bills that change that principal Act, I do think they need to be\u00A0accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe other word that I actually have issues with as well is \u201Ccosts\u201D, because \u201Ccosts\u201D implies that there is a measurable evidence base for the retaining, rather than collecting, of the money\u00A0that is being accrued. When I look at the cost recovery impact statement, it definitely says that there is no evidence for that. So trying to find what to call that would be something I\u2019d like to ask the Minister. Is there a better word that basically describes what is happening? I don\u2019t think \u201Ccost\u201D captures it. Perhaps the word \u201Clevy\u201D has been used. \u201CLevy\u201D isn\u2019t accurate\u00A0either, because it is a fee and that was discussed in the speech, and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll come to that in the relevant parts, but I\u2019m wondering, actually, if we just replace the word\u00A0\u201Ccosts\u201D with \u201Ctax\u201D, because that\u2019s actually what is happening here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo, although I haven\u2019t tabled an amendment, I wonder if the Minister would consider changing the title to Public Finance (Fines Tax\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. So we would take out the word \u201Ccollection\u201D, because, as I said, there\u2019s no active collection going on, and take out the word \u201Ccosts\u201D. There isn\u2019t anything that can be evidenced numerically; it is a retention of some money, and, therefore, in my mind, the appropriate nomenclature for that would be \u201Ctax\u201D. So I do wonder if the Minister would please consider mine, even though I am very sorry that I didn\u2019t manage to get time to table the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022984ada4f0d8d4b3c8227f87df62dd68e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022984ada4f0d8d4b3c8227f87df62dd68e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I thought the member\u2019s question was very good in terms of why not use the word \u201Ctax\u201D rather than \u201Ccosts\u201D, and I\u2019d like to explain to the House why the word \u201Ccosts\u201D is more appropriate. It costs the Government money to do activities, and the activity that it is doing here is collecting fines on behalf of local authorities and other entities, and that cost has increased over time. So, as part of good Government, it\u2019s appropriate that we have a cost recovery model which ensures that the costs that it costs to run the service are recovered. This bill is doing that\u2014exactly that. I just sort of feel like, in that last 30 seconds or a minute, I\u2019ve explained why the last six years have been such an appalling waste of money by that last Government. This Government is bringing back appropriate expenditure, appropriate governance, and appropriate cost recovery models. That is exactly what this bill is doing. This small but important bill is another measure in terms of doing that so that we have better governance in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed0e385046e946e68d8e3358b75432bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed0e385046e946e68d8e3358b75432bc\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to take my first call on this bill, the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI appreciate what this bill is trying to do in order to recuperate some of the costs generated by the court and by local authorities. Based on what we see here, in terms of the cost recovery impact statement, it is projected here that revenue through court fines is budgeted at $111 million a year by the Ministry of Justice, and the revenue from the filing fees\u2014these are two separate fees we\u2019re looking at. One is the fines recovered or the fines imposed, and the other one is the filing fee. Now, I would like to know from the Minister what sort of modelling he has done when it comes to the collection of the fee itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the reason I mention this\u2014and this is a little bit outdated; I can only imagine it has increased\u2014is that the previous report said that Kiwis, and also, in this case, tourists\u2014I would like to know how this bill would affect tourists. But Kiwis and tourists have evaded $156 million in unpaid fines over the past decade, and this is from 2009 to 2019. Across Aotearoa, district and regional councils have referred, at that stage in 2019, $471\u00A0million of fines to the Ministry of Justice since 2008, and 33 percent of those fines were never recovered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, based on the cost recovery impact statement and the estimated additional revenue from the proposed changes, I would like to ask the Minister: does this, first of all, factor in to the amount of fines that were never recovered in the first place? Auckland, of course, dwarfs other councils. In this report, $66.5 million of fines were left unpaid since 2008-09\u2014so within a decade. So that\u2019s a really important question. The second branch of that question is what I mentioned before: a lot of the time, these fines are incurred by tourists who will come to Aotearoa, and when they leave\u2014and this goes to that\u2014has that also been considered as part of the estimated additional revenue that has been proposed? So those are the first two questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhen we are looking at this bill, it also talks about collection by not only local authorities but also other organisations, and I would like to know from the Minister what conversations have been had with other organisations who are also currently collecting some of these fees, and whether they have agreed\u2014if they are either a State-owned enterprise or if they are indeed other agencies or private enterprises, etc.\u2014whether any other organisations have OK\u2019d the increase from 10 percent to 14 percent of the fee that is going to be retained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo those are my initial questions. There are other questions on specific areas as well. But thank you very much, Madam Chair, for giving me the opportunity. But the question here is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf528bd4fc874465b66c2c95198f5050\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaec21c7eeba4d95870b3be1825fae09\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I still do have a minute and 26 seconds. Just to recap, the first question is around whether\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8dca9e793c4003bff3ba57ddf74fa0\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: It could have gone to select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267190945b3eb44dd82b215c9d4890210\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: It could have gone to select committee. The first question is around whether the estimated amount of revenue that is proposed here has factored in to the amount that is going to be lost from fines left unpaid, both by locals but also by tourists. Also, the second question is around whether other organisations agreed to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I would also like to point out, which the Minister just mentioned before\u2014I appreciate and understand that you\u2019re trying to be fiscally responsible and trying to recuperate some of these costs\u2014but may I also point people to the Vote Courts document that says, for support of the District Court, there is also an $8.5 million increase in the response to harm, as well as a $3 million increase to District Court funding and a tougher approach to sentencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo when we are looking at something like this, if you\u2019re trying to balance the costs of the court and the estimate you\u2019re using, they\u2019re not actually recuperating it, because you have now just gone and spent it on all of these other things. I am also kind of interested to know from the Minister what his thoughts are on some of these rebalancing of the costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6a9b446c85e45cdbcccabc4224484f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6a9b446c85e45cdbcccabc4224484f5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take another call, I\u2019d just like to remind members that this is a clause by clause consideration. It is not part by part, as you were probably expecting. So clause 1 is a more fulsome debate. I refer to Speaker\u2019s ruling\u00A0127/1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00221853aae7049c48408a90926a32369fe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221853aae7049c48408a90926a32369fe0\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002278beac5ec4c84e2db66448416b2e3854\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278beac5ec4c84e2db66448416b2e3854\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve just said, it\u2019s a more fulsome debate than a clause by clause debate. So we have got a bit more material, I think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8c3cc8ff5a2412ea9c4f59e2ea86cae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8c3cc8ff5a2412ea9c4f59e2ea86cae\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have an Amendment Paper on clause 1, so I would have felt quite aggrieved if I wasn\u2019t able to speak to that. But old \u201CEager Meager\u201D has attempted to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218787530f42a475495fefda8ecf53e09\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CEager Meager\u201D\u2014\u201CEager Meager\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c4052eb9b894bc99e367fc5d6047384\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, it\u2019s James Meager, and I should use your full name. But that\u2019s all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022549c065c2f4447b29dc94668a4f0998b\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: James \u201CEager\u201D Meager.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200aef78ebbaf4067884f981c28054e7f\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: James \u201CEager\u201D Meager. But in all seriousness\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dfb0a5bad134e8da982314a4ebd5461\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Is that going to be the name of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fa26f2cab1b43d18dc8682fe9759424\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I have got a suggestion for a retitle of this bill, but, no, that is not the name of the bill. I suspect he would like that a little bit too much. With all due respect to my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, who has also got an Amendment Paper\u2014I know he made a suggestion and I know at the time when I heard it, I thought that was perfectly reasonable. To be perfectly fair, it\u2019s gone in one ear and out the other, because I think I\u2019ve got a better title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, also with respect to my colleague Ingrid Leary, I thought she made a couple of good points which I hadn\u2019t quite thought of. I\u2019ve made a couple of notes here, because I particularly underlined the word \u201Ccollection\u201D. I have tabled an amendment, but if I had heard your comment beforehand, I may have thought about that twice because I do believe that \u201Ccollection\u201D is an active word, it is a doing word, and I\u2019m not entirely sure that I necessarily would have chosen that, but it\u2019s still a much better option than what the name is before us now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo the other part that I think I\u2019d like to make mention of is this concept of making money. So the amendment that I have before me is to replace clause 1 with \u201CThis Act is the Public Finance Making Money Off Debt Collection Amendment Act.\u201D When I say, \u201Cmaking money\u201D, I think, as has been mentioned in previous contributions during the various stages\u2014which I know always feel like they\u2019re lumped in together when we go through urgency, because they are all lumped in together, and we don\u2019t get a chance to let that settle a bit and to have a little bit more thought as we go through this process. But such is the nature of urgency, and it\u2019s always a bit of a conundrum, isn\u2019t it, when we talk about \u201Curgency\u201D, because it makes it seem like it\u2019s something that\u2019s actually quite urgent and important, but this bill obviously isn\u2019t in line with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EMaking money is in line with this because this is what it\u2019s about. So I think that I disagree with the Minister when he says that what\u2019s written on the tin is what it does. I think this \u201Cmaking money\u201D part that I\u2019m suggesting needs to have a more prominent position in the title of this bill. Now, when we talk about making money, obviously, if we look through the various documents that were imparted to support this bill, there was a table that said, I think, that it was $446,000 in its first year, which, you know\u2014$446,000 is a little bit of money in terms of the Government\u2019s budgets. It\u2019s not a huge amount of money in the scheme of things. It\u2019s certainly not up there with the $2.9 billion in tax cuts for landlords, for instance. But nevertheless, it is some money and I think because of that, in the title, it should say something along the lines of, as I\u2019ve suggested, \u201CThis Act is the Public Finance Making Money Off Debt Collection\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing that I would like us to think about when we think of what an appropriate title would be when we think of clause 1, is the fact that the existing 10\u00A0percent, along with the filing fee of $30, from memory\u2014and remembering some of the things that are being raised are being raised by as much as, like, 83 percent. So the \u201Cmaking money\u201D part here shouldn\u2019t be understated. But that already makes the Government\u2019s position as a debt collector, so to speak\u2014or the Government\u2019s position as using the judicial system as a means by which to collect debt\u2014a little bit uncompetitive as it is. So I think the addition of \u201Cmaking money off debt collection\u201D just specifies that a little bit more correctly that the Government is still in that business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo I wonder if the Minister would consider that. I think it suits the bill a lot more and I\u2019d be interested in hearing any other contributions from colleagues who may have other, similar ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00222aab005581dc43d9856d4f2e6182c0ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aab005581dc43d9856d4f2e6182c0ad\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to respond to the member, the list MP from Banks Peninsula. The tabled amendment was that the Act is the \u201CPublic Finance Making Money Off Debt Collection Amendment Act\u201D, which could not be anything but what this bill is doing. It\u2019s simply about cost recovery and about making sure that the system is able to actually pay the bills. Actually, that means ensuring that there\u2019s enough funding. As it says in the general policy statement on the bill, which I assume the member hasn\u2019t read yet, the increase is to ensure that fines \u201Cfrom amounts of fines recovered for offences\u201D can be actually just covering the cost. I mean, that is ultimately what this bill is doing. So I\u2019m not sure what the last Government did for the last six years, but clearly they borrowed, spent, taxed, but, actually, this is simply about making sure that the service\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b204ccf173540e69a15910e88c295d2\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: What about localism, guys?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f4e7fe8e54e444cb75fbd05a2316bbb\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure who that is screaming across the Chamber, but I did hear the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aff8e3596c994070a5291057c4a79ff0\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, big boy, Simeon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222612fc4bd38948319c431d0ee736ca78\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the answer to the interjection\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cee29256bae847699365851adbd7cf95\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Refrain from getting personal with the remarks, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a4d5f0f2f7d4727aa5c1e3147a6008f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The answer to that question is that the Crown is providing a service for local government. It costs more money to run that service than it used to because of the inflation left behind by the last Government and so we\u2019re ensuring cost recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002235ed8c015b954c4abe371293af79b772\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235ed8c015b954c4abe371293af79b772\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I do appreciate that you had a lot of choices there and you chose me, and I appreciate that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e177ac9bd74c49cd8177fafed23bf128\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: This sounds like leadership-thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea0493635179485dba5364c0aeef5a93\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Keep it up. We\u2019ve got all night. It\u2019s all good; we\u2019re in no rush. [Interruption] We\u2019re in no rush\u2014keep it coming. But it\u2019s interesting that it does appear the Minister also wishes to keep this debate going, Madam Chair, because, as you\u00A0know, and as many others know in this Chamber, if a Minister chooses to respond to\u00A0a genuine query, like that as was proposed by Dr Duncan Webb, with a political comment, it only extends the debate. So if that\u2019s how the Minister wants to play it, that\u2019s absolutely fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI also have a genuine query. As much as I support the proposal made by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, who always plays with a straight bat\u2014he\u2019s talking about an increase in charges for local body debt collection. It\u2019s a fair cop. But what I\u2019ve heard a lot from the Minister tonight is \u201Ccost recovery\u201D. What I haven\u2019t heard from the Minister tonight is the term \u201Ccollection costs\u201D, and I find that interesting. So I guess my query to the Minister is: if he really wants the title of this bill to, as he says, reflect what\u2019s in the tin, would he consider changing the title of this bill to the \u201CPublic Finance (Cost Recovery) Amendment Bill\u201D? I\u2019ll explain why I don\u2019t believe that what is currently there is appropriate, but why I think, in the spirit of trying to work together, that would be an appropriate title. Well,\u00A0the first and most obvious point is that this is the justification that the Minister himself has used on a number of occasions. So, surely, if that is the justification behind this bill, then he may as well have the title reflecting that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe issue that I have with the current title is that it\u2019s got the inclusion of \u201CBudget Measures\u201D in there. Now, throughout the debate, in the first reading and up to now, this side of the House has made the point that this is a proposal from the Government to try and fill the gap that has been created by their tax cuts in the Budget. Pretty much every contribution from the Government has said \u201CNo, this has got nothing to do with that.\u201D, and, yet, in the title, it\u2019s got \u201CBudget Measures\u201D. So if they really do think that and it isn\u2019t actually to do with the Budget, then let\u2019s take that out and just say \u201Ccost recovery\u201D, and then it will say what the Minister says that the bill says. We might still dispute it, but the whole point of the committee of the whole House stage is that in the absence of a select committee, the committee has got to try and find ways to improve it. At the moment, I don\u2019t believe the Minister\u2019s argument that the title reflects the intention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn fact, I actually don\u2019t think that if it were called the \u201CPublic Finance (Cost Recovery) Amendment Bill\u201D it would either, but it would certainly reflect what the Minister\u2019s saying about why this bill is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u002208b7715e0655486bbc82e08e7cb71b2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208b7715e0655486bbc82e08e7cb71b2e\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3aa02f26074480b8148758f3599740f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: How many parking fines have you had?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022590776e065804e8fb88181233e4e22db\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I do feel that I should correct the situation in the committee and admit to parking too long in Masterton once. So I\u2019m not suggesting that the title be amended to \u201CSympathy for Overstayers\u201D, but there are some ways that we could improve the title. I wonder if the title should be \u201CKeeping Councils in the Dark about Increasing the Costs to Councils.\u201D It\u2019s been clear that local government\u2014and presumably none of the mayors learnt of it till they read about it. I wonder if the Minister of Local Government or the Minister of Transport or somebody could have actually talked to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, maybe it should be called the \u201CDiscouragement of Enforcement Bill\u201D, because if we make it more expensive for councils to enforce\u2014and it\u2019s not only about turnover of parking; it\u2019s also about safety. Let me have a look at the list, because we could put them all in the title, but we probably won\u2019t. If it\u2019s harder for a council to enforce parking on or near a pedestrian crossing, if it\u2019s harder to enforce parking on a bus-only lane, if it\u2019s harder to enforce inconsiderate parking, who\u2019s going to suffer? Well, it will be the people that are most disadvantaged, that are generally ignored by this Government\u2014people in wheelchairs, and children walking to school\u2014having to walk out on to the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThis bill could be called \u201CKeep Local Government and Transport in the 20th Century\u201D, because that\u2019s the last time that some of those fees were increased. While I have immense sympathy for my colleagues on the right\u2014maybe that wasn\u2019t the best phrase\u2014if they\u2019ve ever received a parking fine, they can avoid it with better vigilance to time keeping and by looking not to block people, but the people most disadvantaged by a lack of enforcement would still suffer. So I\u2019ve offered some alternative bill titles. I look forward to the Minister\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4a1a95cdd9a4e98bf582450073fae58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4a1a95cdd9a4e98bf582450073fae58\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for your guidance, actually, just directing us to the fact that given that this is being done clause by clause, the title clause is the appropriate place for the more kind of wide-ranging debates, because there are some wider policy issues. This bill hasn\u2019t been to select committee and we\u2019ve got this only today, in parliamentary time, so there are a few questions I would like the Minister to answer. They\u2019re quite serious questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe first is: how much does it cost the Crown to run this recovery framework, and how much of it is recovered through the existing system? So, basically, what\u2019s the shortfall? Because you\u2019ve talked about there being cost pressures, and, in an earlier speech, I suggested that it was actually just the Government looking for a bit of money because they\u2019ve got a tight Budget. But you\u2019re telling me that that\u2019s not the case, so I guess I\u2019m calling the Minister on this and saying, well, show me what the figures are. So what are the actual costs and what is the shortfall? I\u2019d just ask two things first, if I may\u2014so either my colleagues can speak, or you can respond. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that I\u2019m a bit perplexed, because in the regulatory impact statement\u2014in the cost recovery impact statement\u2014I understand why the 2024-25 recovery is slow, because it\u2019s only half a year. But your 2025-26 recoveries of this additional 4\u00A0percent are $466,000 and across into 2028-29, that rises to $686,000, and, given that it\u2019s a flat rate on parking fines and other fines, I can\u2019t see where the revenue growth comes from because I can\u2019t see that there\u2019s more fines being imposed, unless the Minister is perhaps anticipating increasing the amounts of the fines\u2014in which case, that money would be 4 percent of a greater sum. So if he could explain to me how he reaches that increased revenue, that would be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI do think that this is part of a wider framework, including increased court costs, so I do want to ask some questions about that. But in the spirit of having an exchange, I won\u2019t go with that; I\u2019ll give the Minister an opportunity to respond to those matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u00223fa02c9202dd40bdb1f084696b512116\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fa02c9202dd40bdb1f084696b512116\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for allowing me to take my first call on this bill. I have three questions for the Minister, which I\u2019ll then follow with some contextual statements and some figures on why I\u2019ve asked these\u00A0questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EMy first question to the Minister is: how many Ministers and how much time was spent on this bill in total in terms of drafting, in terms of meetings, and in terms of everything to do with this, the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill? My second question is: how many backbenchers and how much time was spent in total in meetings and consultations, and whatever other aspects there are of this Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill? My final question is: how many officials and how much time was spent deliberating and drafting and working on this Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EI ask that question, Minister, because according to page\u00A09 of the regulatory impact statement, the additional anticipated revenue raised is meant to be $285,887. Throughout this time while we\u2019ve been in the House, I have counted the number of backbenchers while we\u2019ve been debating this, and I\u2019ve counted the number of Ministers. Assuming that it takes about five hours to get through this process, we will have spent about $10,000\u00A0just debating this legislation alone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really curious just to hear your figures, because I reckon it\u2019ll end up costing $30,000 to $50,000 of hard-earned taxpayers\u2019 money to pass this nothing bill\u2014this bill that has no ambition and no substance. It\u2019s an absolutely nothing bill, and we\u2019re wasting time deliberating on it. So let me hear from you, Minister. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00227cf2340f13e44c65b5a89e316f8ec779\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cf2340f13e44c65b5a89e316f8ec779\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I thank the members for their questions. As they may be able to\u2014oh, sorry, I\u2019ll bring the microphone down. Is that better? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f70b4cb99bcd406da2868b62b34022f0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Stand up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bdd5f14d3a141679c69d5d4baa9364a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ve got to stand up\u2014sorry, I\u2019ll stand up. I\u2019ll stand up straight\u2014is that better? I should stop slouching, I\u2019m sorry. Good questions there from the members. Obviously, this bill does one part of the changes that the Minister of Justice is proposing. The bill deals with the additional anticipated revenue from increasing the retainings based on increase to 14 percent from 10 percent on 1\u00A0July\u00A02024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAs can be seen in the cost recovery impact statement, there\u2019s also additional revenue from increasing the court costs and filing fees, additional revenue collected through increase to enforcement fees, and, as members will be able to read, there is a total on the bottom which outlines the total increased fees that this measure is increasing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EUltimately, the reason for increasing the anticipated revenue from the retainings is because there is increased costs in recovering fines. As outlined in the general policy statement, the increase is to ensure that this can cover the costs, which have increased over time, and it will help recover Crown costs. That is good public policy, to ensure that good cost recovery is implemented across the activities that Government does. That is what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002292e60d920c6e4318ab0b726a84f9957b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292e60d920c6e4318ab0b726a84f9957b\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u00A0appreciate that a lot. I didn\u2019t think I had a chance, because I\u2019m not sure if you\u2019ve noticed, Madam Chair, but I\u2019m not the tallest bloke and Duncan Webb was standing right in front of me, but you picked me, so thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhile I\u2019m still waiting for a response to what was a genuine and sincere proposal for an alternative title from the Minister, I do have a question. A question that, actually, I think touches at the heart of this and certainly at the heart of our concerns that we\u2019ve raised, and that is what level of consultation was made with the local government sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, the reason I ask this question and that I\u2019m so interested in this is it\u2019s actually the exact same question that I asked the Minister during the committee stage of the water reforms repeal bill. I asked the question of the Minister, by my count, six times. You know what\u2019s funny? He didn\u2019t answer once. That was interesting because I had a suspicion throughout that the Minister actually hadn\u2019t widely consulted the sector leading up to that on that specific proposal within the bill. As it turns out, it appears that that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s important that the committee gets a response from the Minister around this, because, ultimately, it is the local government sector that is affected by this. We understand the rationale\u2014whilst we do not agree with it, we get that the Minister wants to do cost recovery, hence my suggested alternative title. At the end of the day, it is the local government sector that loses out from this. They lose where the Government gains, regardless of the justification or the reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, if it is indeed the case that the Minister hasn\u2019t consulted with the local government sector, that would be a shame indeed. In fact, it would be an outrage to propose a bill under urgency as part of the Budget measure whilst they swear in their contributions that it isn\u2019t part of the Budget or anything to do with tax cuts, even though it\u2019s in the title\u2014although I propose it shouldn\u2019t be for that reason, but never mind; we\u2019ve made that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m saying here is the committee actually deserves to know the level of consultation with the local government sector. It may be, actually, that there has been considerable consultation\u2014and that\u2019s fine. It might be, as part of that consultation, that the local government sector has said, \u201CYep, fair enough. You gotta recover costs. We\u2019ve also incurred costs, as everyone has in the current moment, but sure. Take 4 percent of what we would have got to cover your costs.\u201D If that is the case, who knows, that might actually change our mind. But it\u2019s important that the committee knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1658f1440ba4997bb2acc47402faa86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1658f1440ba4997bb2acc47402faa86\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I refer the member who\u2019s just sat down, the Hon Kieran McAnulty, to page\u00A010 of the cost recovery impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002210558d5bdf094e3fab44fd79cae34b0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210558d5bdf094e3fab44fd79cae34b0a\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022131a288c440f4ff89f8ed9cb8028439a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022131a288c440f4ff89f8ed9cb8028439a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not quite sure we\u2019ve exhausted all of the questions on this particular clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9a8276383da48788c6cd546582df360\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9a8276383da48788c6cd546582df360\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to just pick up on something that the Minister himself brought into the debate around good public policy and cost recovery, and to question him about the evidence base. But, before I do that, this is a genuine point that I raise and a question to the Minister, and I bring this point because I note that, in a previous committee of the whole House stage in the Chamber today when a Minister in the chair was texting or was on the phone, the presiding officer felt that that wasn\u2019t really engaging in the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m very grateful that the Minister has answered the subsequent questions. We haven\u2019t heard answers on the original one. So I do have a question to the Minister. It\u2019s not my primary question; it\u2019s a little bit of a supp, but I would like to know if the Minister will continue to debate with us without going on to his phone so that we know he is engaging, because I think it\u2019s really important. If we\u2019re spending the money that my colleague from Dunedin in the Green Party\u2014Francisco\u2014has said is being spent, it\u2019s really important that all sides of the House are engaged, including particularly the Minister in the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy real question is around his statement that good policy making requires the costs to be recovered and that\u2019s what he\u2019s doing. There just doesn\u2019t seem to be an evidence base. So I\u2019m wondering what is the evidence base that is leading to this title of \u201CFines Collection Costs [Recovery]\u201D of the policy before us. When I look at the cost recovery impact statement, it actually says that other options were \u201Cnot proceeded with due to significant uncertainty around whether actual benefits would outweigh the loss of fees revenue. To progress this option extensive consultation and data collection would be required to determine whether it would be worth progressing and, if so, additional policy work would \u2026 be required.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, my point is that it feels like we\u2019ve got this the wrong way around. Surely, if this was something that the Government wanted to do, the first thing to do in a policy process is to collect the data in order to be able to get a baseline to be able to understand where the deficit is. This goes very much to the heart, I think, of what Dr Duncan Webb was asking. He was saying, \u201CWhat are the numbers?\u201D I\u2019m saying, well, isn\u2019t this in the wrong order? There has been a decision made, we can\u2019t see an evidence base, and we have a cost recovery impact statement that actually says the information is not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: how can this be good public policy\u2014which is what he said and what he brought into the debate\u2014and how can he say that there is an evidence base? Because what is disturbing to me is that viewers hear these words being thrown around a little about good lawmaking or good public policy, and they\u2019re accepted on face value. But it\u2019s our job, particularly in urgency and when there is no select committee process, to interrogate what the basis of the decision making is. I\u2019m no closer to understanding the basis of that decision, because I haven\u2019t heard from the Minister what the evidence is. He certainly hasn\u2019t illuminated the numbers in the questions of Duncan Webb. I want to know, given that it\u2019s actually in black and white here on the statement that there is no evidence, how could he make an evidence-informed decision, and, therefore, how can he say this is good public policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, there may be an element that I haven\u2019t seen. Maybe there was some kind of statement made by officials at some point. Maybe there were some text messages between Ministers from different coalition parties. Was that the evidence base? I don\u2019t know. Was it a conversation? Was it a coalition agreement? Because sometimes, in this House, we\u2019ve been told that the evidence base is a coalition agreement. Certainly, I\u2019ve heard in relation to, perhaps, say, Gumboot Friday, that the evidence base for that decision was a coalition agreement, and that seems to have been accepted. So if it\u2019s a coalition agreement, I\u2019d like to hear it, but I would then also like the Minister to say, if that\u2019s the case, how does that make it good public policy? So there\u2019s a logical framework here. There\u2019s a logical train of thought. At each point in that logic, there seems to be missing elements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI think, if we can get to that point, we may ultimately be able to find the answer to Dr\u00A0Duncan Webb\u2019s question, which is around what the actual numbers are. Without the evidence base underneath, I just don\u2019t understand how we can do that. So if the Minister can clarify that and put those more sinister thoughts to bed, because, you know, I don\u2019t know if it was based on text messaging or whatever, but I\u2019d like to understand the public policy basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002203b6c71bc4334a12bf89778aa540d6f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203b6c71bc4334a12bf89778aa540d6f5\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think that that was a really good question that\u2019s just been raised for the Minister to consider. Hopefully, whilst he\u2019s looking through some information or taking some advice and we hear an answer about that\u2014particularly about the evidence base and what constitutes good evidence\u2014I would like to ask a question along the same sort of vein, I suppose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIf we go back to the title itself and think about \u201CFines Collection Costs\u201D, it\u2019s implicit within that that there are cost pressures. So I\u2019ve got two questions. If we accept that it\u2019s implicit that, therefore, there are cost pressures, given that there\u2019s a need to address fine collection costs, as my colleague Ingrid Leary has just said, we still don\u2019t know what the evidence of that is. In fact, in the\u2014what\u2019s it called?\u2014the cost recovery impact statement (CRIS), it specifically says that that information is absent. You know, it doesn\u2019t exist. So we don\u2019t know what the basis of that is. So I really do think it\u2019s going to be difficult for us to move on from this clause, which is important. It serves the purpose of being able to\u2014as the Minister said, it should be about what\u2019s written on the tin. So it\u2019s incumbent upon us here, as members of this House, to be able to do what we can do to make sure that that turns out that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo when we think about that, the second part of that\u2014and I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve really got to the bottom of this part either. So I\u2019d also like to acknowledge, whilst we\u2019re waiting for this answer, that I agree with the question that Ingrid Leary has posed and the Hon Kieran McAnulty has also suggested. Why is the \u201CBudget Measures\u201D part still there? On the one hand\u2014we\u2019re hearing all this contradictory information. I think that\u2019s why it\u2019s making it so sketchy. We\u2019re hearing that this has got nothing to do with the Government having to make its tax cuts add up or having to fill in gaps in its budgetary hole, so to speak. But, on the other hand, it\u2019s explicit in the title. So, on one hand, we\u2019ve got this implicit implication that it\u2019s to do with cost pressures that we don\u2019t know anything about, but, on the other hand, it\u2019s explicitly stated in the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI think, before we can move on, we really do need to get to the bottom of what that is, because when we look at the cost recovery impact statement, on page\u00A01, just past the executive summary, it literally says, under \u201CConstraints - Time and Budget Sensitivity\u201D, \u201CTo support the Government\u2019s Budget priority of finding $1.5 billion\u201D. That is the purpose. Which one is it? We\u2019re getting told one thing by the Minister in the Chamber tonight, because he\u2019s trying to minimise its association with the Budget or, you know, the impetus for the need to find some money to prop up the Budget, but, on the other hand, all the way through the information, including in the title, we\u2019re told otherwise. So I think that the Minister really needs to explain that before we can move on, and I\u2019m sure other people have other questions along those lines as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002250ae676cfb114a4588b92a13cdf82d80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250ae676cfb114a4588b92a13cdf82d80\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just let the members know that that\u2019s the third time we\u2019ve had a speech about costs and cost recovery. Just warning the members that we are looking for new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022e531e8e354b2410296310f9b47e0b062\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e531e8e354b2410296310f9b47e0b062\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate this is the first time I\u2019ve been able to take a call on this Amendment Paper. I really appreciate the opportunity because it has got a really interesting title, the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. That\u2019s a bit of a mouthful. We do understand that in the House there has to be a title for a piece of legislation. What I\u2019ve been thinking about, having had a look through this bill, coming to it a little bit late because we\u2019re trying to rush this through urgency, as is usual with the crappy\u2014excuse me, the poor legislation that we\u2019ve become accustomed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe have here something that we are used to from this Government, which is a piece of nonsense. But let\u2019s think about the title. There\u2019s some really interesting amendments I see that we\u2019ll get to later. I see that the Hon Duncan Webb has proposed that the title be changed. Replace clause 1 with \u201CThis Act is the Public Finance (Increase in Charges for Local Body Debt Collection) Amendment Act.\u201D Now, that seems like a very sensible amendment, and I hope the Minister will consider that. But I think we\u2019ve got options as well. I mean, there are more possibilities for a title that accurately represents this less than quality piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI note that Tracey McLellan in committee has also proposed an amendment. This amendment suggests replacing clause 1 with \u201CThis Act is the Public Finance (Making Money off Debt Collection) Amendment Act.\u201D which, again, seems much more appropriate to what this bill is actually proposing to do. I personally have come up with another title, I think, that could be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI think I\u2019d like us to consider the importance of the title, actually, because we do need to make sure that a title represents what is in the Act, what is in the amendment, because it has to mean something to ordinary people. So the title that I think\u2014I think we should replace clause 1 with \u201CThis Act is the Public Finance (Further Impoverish Local Government) Amendment Act 2024\u201D. I think that would be really helpful because we know what local government\u2019s gone through. We know that killing three waters has put an incredible burden on ratepayers. We know that local government is not going to be bailed out by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EBut perhaps if we\u2019re considering the title, why should we get to choose the title. I\u2019m also really interested, and I\u2019d like the Minister to tell us what type of discussion he\u2019s had with local government about the title for this bill, which will take away money from local government. What discussions has he had and what suggestions has local government given for an accurate title for this bill? Because I think what we\u2019d see would be something much more interesting than we\u2019ve been able to come up with, and certainly with the title that the Minister has given us for a bill that is actually a piece of nonsense. It is, unfortunately, the work that we expect from this Government. But let us at least have an accurate title for this bill that tells us what it is. This is taking money away from local government. It is simply to fund tax cuts, and tax cuts for landlords. It\u2019s not about ensuring a fairer system for anyone. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002224144a9edf5a41dbae5f7943c340b519\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224144a9edf5a41dbae5f7943c340b519\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you members for your questions. The earlier question around cost recovery, page\u00A03 of the cost recovery impact statement outlines how the expenditure in the appropriation for collection and enforcement of fines and civil debt services has increased from $43 million in 1998-99 to $58.3 million in 2022-23. During that same period of time, there has been no increase in the filing fee. There has been a small increase in the enforcement fee. The percentage of fines retained by the Crown has remained unchanged since it was in 1989. During that time, there\u2019s been this thing called \u201Cinflation\u201D, and particularly in the last three years there\u2019s been a lot of inflation. So, ultimately, the point of cost recovery is to ensure that the public services that are delivering this service are able to raise the funds to be able to pay for it. That is what this bill is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI just want to answer the question from the member who just sat down, which was the question of has the Government consulted on the title of the bill. It is not normal Government practice to consult on titles of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbd1a3f309434b39aaa09a9f86d06c92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbd1a3f309434b39aaa09a9f86d06c92\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c15808034274443e88024f6cc66389da\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001016\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 68, Noes 47.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2b7b9eb9d9d4dbb8476a1bf936593b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2b7b9eb9d9d4dbb8476a1bf936593b6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Tracey McLellan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 to replace \u201C(Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures)\u201D with \u201C(Making Money on Debt Collection)\u201D is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 to replace \u201C(Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures)\u201D with \u201C(Increase of Charges for Local Body Debt Collection)\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f443da8af06a4d9fb1fef8637278bb68\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221d4eaabb6800470f950f94ae1b2ab0bf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8f7a22e8c664d6da1b83937e3a1ed72\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022381bb784db6943dea152251358c93ef8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022381bb784db6943dea152251358c93ef8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 2. This is the debate on clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D. The question is that clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220622a5b084084335b8023fa2d5560e29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220622a5b084084335b8023fa2d5560e29\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to talk about the commencement clause. The commencement clause says: \u201CThis Act comes into force on 1\u00A0July\u00A02024.\u201D; that is, the start of the next financial year. That is the reason why that is the start of this Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002224861062afe1466cbf470b2568eaab88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224861062afe1466cbf470b2568eaab88\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. You\u2019ll see, I\u2019m sure, that I do have a tabled amendment here, because it does seem to be a little precipitous to rush this through. I was reading the document that the Minister in the\u00A0chair, Simeon Brown, referred to, the cost recovery impact statement, and just noticing that some of the constraints\u2014this is right on the front page; it talks about constraints. For example, it mentions about halfway down the page there that Consumers Price Index data has been used as a proxy for the limited financial information, which provides a reasonable basis for\u00A0decision making. That\u2019s the problem, limited financial information, because it\u2019s been done in a rush\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fcbab69ec49410789034d9e4540781a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Link this to commencement, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d8af4d788d741459e13c9af8d31cb56\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, no, this is the point, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c5e2f15768d4323a2e5abb4085e3f4e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just link it to commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022579315c001794ac19736cfc2a129c396\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, but my point is this has been done in a rush, and we need to just take a breath. So let\u2019s just not rush into putting this into force. Of course, the fact of the matter is that we\u2019ve rushed from one thing; we\u2019re rushing into the next. All of a sudden, this change is going to come into force within one month, and that\u2019s an extremely short period of time\u2014a short period of time for systems to change but also a short period of time for local bodies, so that local bodies can make choices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe cost recovery impact statement itself says that, on some occasions, local bodies choose different providers, and they may well, when they look at this and they say, \u201COh, our costs are going up by 4 percent.\u201D, they may want to change providers. Now, to do that within one month simply isn\u2019t enough, because this is a lot of admin to do. You\u2019ve got a lot of parking fines out there, a lot of enforcement notices; you might even have court cases in train, so you\u2019ll have issued summons to people to appear, and the price that you have to pay to the Government has gone up and you\u2019ve got no way out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a91b660d954ee5b8ce7330e677ab8a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Please use the word \u201Ccouncil\u201D instead of the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022192184f8aab74fb683132dd34c16e234\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Can I apologise, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022665e0c977fd643aa82ea1d7f254f7db4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b89279fa7b884fe19385db484527f03f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Sometimes, I do get excited about matters of such high importance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad753545cd84440a8345c7588f8f148c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Like commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a053e7c166c4436a9304c0ae25e96b98\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the commencement date is what we\u2019re talking about. My point is simply that councils ought to be entitled to make their own arrangements, and that ability has, effectively, been taken away from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy tabled amendment is very modest, actually. It was not some silly amendment that says, \u201Cpush it out to the never-never.\u201D It simply says let\u2019s push it down the road to 1\u00A0January\u00A02025, because what would happen then is all of the court proceedings which are currently in the system will be cleared out\u2014because they don\u2019t take too long, these traffic infringements and the like, usually\u2014and the councils can then make a choice as to whether they want to continue using this enforcement mechanism or whether they want to go down a different road which might be more effective for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a very simple point, but the overall global point is this is just another bit of the rushed flavour of this legislation, because the Government wants to push it through and wants this money as quickly as possible. I\u2019m saying, well, no, let\u2019s just have a bit of reasonableness, a bit of fairness, a bit of justice and just stretch it out by six months, and one will be able to get one\u2019s money in due course. I honestly can\u2019t see what the rush is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a relationship thing going on here, right? The councils are going to have this thrust upon them. They probably didn\u2019t hear\u2014well, we didn\u2019t hear about it until today; they didn\u2019t hear about it, by all reports, until today. So it only seems reasonable, decent, and fair to give them an easing-in period which is a lot more than four weeks or a month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very reasonable suggestion, and I actually would like to hear from the Minister why he has this commencement, which, whilst it\u2019s not tomorrow\u2014that would probably be impossible\u2014is so quick. Is he confident that the relevant systems can be put in place to make this system work and for councils to make the appropriate decisions as to whether they opt in or choose to opt out of this, or whether this was simply plucked out of the air\u2014either out of his own head, or did he receive advice on this date? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002282197d696f764d90af8af19cc866f114\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282197d696f764d90af8af19cc866f114\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. I didn\u2019t pluck it out of my own head, because I\u2019m doing this on behalf of my colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith, of course, but I would just make the point, in terms of the time frame: no, we don\u2019t agree with the member\u2019s amendment to delay the date for another six months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis is a Government of action, and we\u2019re making decisions and we\u2019re implementing a change. Ultimately, as we\u2019ll get to when we get to the debate on the Schedule, the member, if he hasn\u2019t read that part of the bill yet, will realise that the percentage increase only applies to fines which are issued after 1\u00A0July, and so all of those fines that he was incredibly concerned about which may already be in the system, the percentage continues over under the current law for those ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe percentage of revenue, ultimately, is collected progressively over time as those fines post that date are fined and then the decisions are made. So, actually, we think there\u2019s plenty of time for this change to be bedded in, due to the progressive way in which this legislation\u2014in which I think the decisions made by my colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith were very sound, very evidence-based, and very good for supporting that cost recovery model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0298a6a8dd44d0ea96d1db3fdd21bc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0298a6a8dd44d0ea96d1db3fdd21bc1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, I\u2019m going to say this is a very, very narrow clause, and the purpose of committee stage is questions for the Minister. We\u2019ve just had a full one around whether things would be in place on time, and we\u2019ve heard the answer to that, so these questions must be apart from that and very clearly crafted to the Minister, because that\u2019s the purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u002283127df8651348a8a5e4fc7820afc07c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283127df8651348a8a5e4fc7820afc07c\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to ask the Minister whether he considers that increasing the costs to council after they have done all the work on consultation on the long-term plans and annual plans, when they\u2019ve been looking at their budgets, they\u2019re trying to keep rates down, they\u2019re working very hard in their costs, and\u2014bingo!\u2014on 1\u00A0July, they start having an increase\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af14319193a1439085166908368a1718\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not hearing about commencement; I\u2019m hearing about cost at the moment. Has the member got a question about the commencement date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f08cd88ec42942c5b8093be74395c9e1\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the commencement date of 1\u00A0July\u00A02024 is in the coming long-term plan or annual plan period that councils have already consulted on. And, actually, my colleague Duncan Webb\u2019s amendment doesn\u2019t go far enough. It\u2019s a minor improvement but it should be from 1\u00A0July\u00A02025, because otherwise there\u2019s no opportunity for councils to make more precise their budget, as I think they are being asked\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003ESo, again, I see you embodying the spirit of Minister Goldsmith, but in your role as Minister of Local Government, I assume you can give us some answers as to why you think you can impose this when the long-term plans are all but agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022044530618dac4b208b3b5a4e5564c9ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022044530618dac4b208b3b5a4e5564c9ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to make it very clear that the Minister is here in his role\u2014I was going to say replacing or substituting Minister Goldsmith; so it\u2019s not about the Minister\u2019s other portfolios, unless he wishes to expand on that, but he doesn\u2019t need to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d62fdb6356f94b9d9f9d14ffd6070461\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d62fdb6356f94b9d9f9d14ffd6070461\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E No one, Madam Chair, can replace the Hon Paul Goldsmith, but what I would say is in terms of the member\u2019s question, in terms of 1\u00A0July\u00A02025 versus 1\u00A0July\u00A02024, as outlined in the cost recovery impact statement, the anticipated revenue from increasing the percentage in the next financial year is only $285,000, and, of course, that will be spread across, you know, all of the different organisations\u2014councils, entities which are applicable for that particular percentage. So the Government considers that to be very minor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022fecaeb9aaa6341c7a9b91b6bd76c7cd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fecaeb9aaa6341c7a9b91b6bd76c7cd1\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for my first opportunity to ask a question of the Minister. I have a new line of questions for the Minister about the commencement date, which relates to some information that this Parliament has learnt today about payment providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow members who have been following along closely with the post-Budget debates will know that three months is the time required for most payment providers, both on a private provider basis and when acting for the Government, to implement changes into their system. That was widely canvassed and is now on public record from the Hon Simon Watts. We also know from that Minister that he was able to consult with the payment providers for one month before today\u2019s date\u2014about one month\u2014because that is the time period that he presented to the House as a three-month period which was required for consultation. But there are only two months before this legislation was introduced into this House and the date on which it would commence. So we can assume that there was a month there for the Minister to consult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy questions to the Minister are: which payment providers are providing the parking fines for councils and which ones for the courts? Are they the same ones that deliver those services, like payments to employees, that would need to take into account changes to the income tax rates? About the providers, have those providers been consulted with for about the same period\u2014for about one month prior to the introduction of this bill? Is that sort of the standard for this suite of bills which are about Budget measures? My last question before I move on is: do the payment providers need to take into account different measures on the fines side to those that are on the courts side, given that the courts side are regulated in a different way and are a collection of a different kind of public levy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00224899c2ba6618458f962a0f6104569b02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224899c2ba6618458f962a0f6104569b02\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The fees are, and the percentage is ultimately collected by the Ministry of Justice\u2014and they will simply adjust how much they charge and how much they retain based on what the law and the regulations allow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002296f2bcf59db64aafa6c3fb6e1108d557\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296f2bcf59db64aafa6c3fb6e1108d557\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019d like to start my contribution just by saying that I know this is a very short clause and it\u2019s to do with the date, but the issues raised by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb are real issues when it comes to the timing. The question I have is\u2014and I\u2019ll say it now and then I\u2019ll give some context to it\u2014did the Minister consider last week, when it came out in the media about the situation with parking fines in Invercargill, moving the date to ensure that there was enough risk and liability consideration to what would happen if the Invercargill situation happened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, what happened in Invercargill\u2014and the reason I\u2019m interested in this is because I am the Labour buddy MP\u2014is that that council is in the position of having to refund $500,000 worth of parking fines. It is something that the council can\u2019t really afford to do. It\u2019s got a small ratepayer base. It\u2019s got a population of around 60,000 people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3e75cb78de461bb2e817f82dc3008a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Does this have something to do with commencement of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcb01e4d1aed469ba023b1b9cc78db42\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it certainly does. It certainly does, Madam Chair, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273a93ada965341fc8016ffc01192c000\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you explain to us quickly how it relates to commencement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262a308a044bb4a6a986c6709d51d0338\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. Thank you for indulging me, Madam Chair. So my question is: given what happened in Invercargill and given the very, very short commencement date, and given the questions that come up from the Invercargill situation about who bears the liability of the lost revenue from those fines, did the Minister consider moving the date to seek further advice about what would happen in a situation like this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, this is not hypothetical; this happened. The situation was that parking fines between 1\u00A0July\u00A02022 and 29\u00A0February\u00A02022\u2014it\u2019s been revealed that they were incorrectly issued under a council by-law. The fines were for $40, and then $490,880 and 12,272 parking fines were issued. This is what I believe, if the Minister was prudent, and this came up in the media, which it did last week\u2014did he say, \u201COK, have we given enough time to consider what would happen in that situation?\u201D Because the council has decided to return that money to people who got those parking fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, the council may, in turn, I guess, try to seek recovery of those fines from the Crown. I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s going to do that, but if I was a Crown Minister, I would be asking myself: what risk management strategy do we need in place to make sure we\u2019re protected from that? I don\u2019t see anything in the commencement date or in the regulatory impact statement or in any of the other documentation that would suggest that there has been some attention brought to the question about liability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI raise this in the context that $500,000 is a lot of money for a small council, and so they may seek just\u2014I don\u2019t know how they would do it, whether they would just ask the Minister, in the spirit of cooperation. Given that the Crown has recovered a certain amount of that money through this type of legislation, through the Public Finance Act, they may say, \u201CCan you please give us back the amount that we have paid to you?\u201D, or they might try and wear it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo the question is very much about commencement, because everything might have looked in order, although I doubt it with the speed at which we\u2019re going through this\u2014but when something like that comes up and it exposes the Crown, through the exposure of the local council, I do think it\u2019s prudent for the Minister to turn his attention to whether the date is simply too quick. And maybe, like Dr Duncan Webb saying to leave it for\u2014I\u2019m not sure how long he said; I won\u2019t ask him, but perhaps a month, to seek some further advice and say, \u201CWhat would happen in the case of an Invercargill-type situation?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy final comments are that it\u2019s really unfortunate because with the end of free public transport in Invercargill, the young people from the south cannot catch buses to the north to get to their sports games\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa861e25f8dd407fb5b8e6be1dd3f3b7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Now we\u2019re a long way away from the commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022259d6fc81a8d48eba60115524e4b38ad\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I just wanted to make that point because $500,000 is a lot of money and a lot of exposure, and so I\u2019d love the Minister to answer my question, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u0022244a9cd673644584890dc7e834afec76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022244a9cd673644584890dc7e834afec76\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce8014d2917a451e8d8e7471b657e467\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d140f953b340465f8f003bf39395da17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d140f953b340465f8f003bf39395da17\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 to replace \u201C1 July 2024\u201D with \u201C1 July 2025\u201D be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ca75aba83e9548bbbc2d7d85d169e111\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220431acaa8f554fa1962f4cbf22326fcf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223ab9c3a8b8f8471b8cb26bca8a84722a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ab9c3a8b8f8471b8cb26bca8a84722a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the vote on the closure to clause 1 was incorrectly recorded as Ayes 68, Noes 47. The result of the vote was actually Ayes 68, Noes 49. The record will be corrected accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc862cc2a6d944a98cb1172c734de71e\u0022\u003EClause 3  Principal Act \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2480a7bd7c64ec89ee0d8c91e2d2588\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2480a7bd7c64ec89ee0d8c91e2d2588\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 3 and this is the debate on clause 3, \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D. The question is that clause 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022d592c380826746ccbeccd9a7d4411477\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d592c380826746ccbeccd9a7d4411477\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to ask the Minister a number of questions about this Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe questions that I would ask the Minister\u2014and I am hoping here for a bit of a back and forth\u2014are whether he considered in the introduction of this legislation, and, in fact, in the consideration leading up to the introduction of this legislation, the fact that\u2014the last time that I checked\u2014back in 2016, the average amount of spending that occurred at a local government level in the OECD was approximately 11 percent per the local and central government proportions\u2014sorry, the average was 30 percent in the OECD. But here in Aotearoa New Zealand, we have less than half of that, at approximately 11\u00A0percent. This is something that I\u2019ve heard the Minister talk about quite a lot\u2014the fact that we need to see more resourcing for local government in this country to be able to meet the challenges of the crises that it is facing and the infrastructural deficit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo when it comes to the fact that this bill will increase the proportion that central government can take back from local government, when it comes to the collection of these fines, I want to know whether the Minister had any consideration for the fact that local government is currently starved of resourcing and funding and whether he looked at any other potential avenues to support them with revenue generation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThose are questions for the Minister, and I would hope that we can open up a bit of a back and forth here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002215790144b76a49f8aaf11a78d475ea2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215790144b76a49f8aaf11a78d475ea2e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Could we please hold that question to clause 4, because the \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D is, basically, all around increasing the percentage the Crown retains from the amount of fines recovered. When we get into clause 4, we talk about the local authorities there, so if we could just hold that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022c82963570c454869a2ea033dc6974237\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c82963570c454869a2ea033dc6974237\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002218435f8a4a9644e38f75fb40b3170bce\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e0fb4b2e53d24e5191c0f8e62244d69e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7374696a05f4839999f6b8a42ef3d2b\u0022\u003EClause 4  Section 73 amended (Payment of fines to local authorities and other organisations that conduct prosecutions) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222fefacba9ff549d4bba4a805579fa0f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 4. This is the debate on clause 4, \u201CSection 73 amended (Payment of fines to local authorities and other organisations that conduct prosecutions)\u201D. The question is that clause 4 stand part. Chl\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fefacba9ff549d4bba4a805579fa0f4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u00F6e Swarbrick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00226cdd601e839b4672acd1f2b960f28da9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cdd601e839b4672acd1f2b960f28da9\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e68c94b26290447e98ef079398040fb3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry\u2014can I just let the Minister go first? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234063a7164a342efb754996eaf69df94\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222922c71284f3433990e2f99ed5896030\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022b924b867c3cc470584964c832bea8c86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b924b867c3cc470584964c832bea8c86\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, this is a very narrow clause. It simply replaces \u201C10%\u201D with \u201C14%\u201D in relation to the payment of fines to local authorities, in relation to how much the Crown retains from those fines to, effectively, cover the costs of running the administration of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe Government chose that figure of 14 percent based on advice to align this with, basically, the fees charged by private debt collectors when collecting infringement fees for local authorities in order to ensure that they were recovering their costs appropriately. The ministry\u2019s advice to increase the proportion of fines retained to 14 percent was based on its understanding of the nature of fees charged by private providers, but it was also taking into account that the proportion of the fine retained by the ministry is a contribution towards the costs of collection, whilst private debt collectors are profit-driven. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn that instance there, the alternative for councils would be to use an external, private debt collector, and, of course, they would\u2014based on this advice\u2014charge a higher percentage because, of course, they would also be taking a percentage of that as profit. So 14 percent is looking at what the underlying costs are, which is, ultimately, why we\u2019re making that change\u2014to ensure that it\u2019s a cost recovery model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222bdf84dcdba74ccc9bdd5ad11a022d09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E: Third time lucky\u2014Chl\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bdf84dcdba74ccc9bdd5ad11a022d09\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u00F6e Swarbrick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00221caa15fa3b044d02b0bae45f8d5d44c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221caa15fa3b044d02b0bae45f8d5d44c9\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. So, as I was alluding to\u2014unfortunately, in the wrong clause, as you so dutifully pointed out\u2014what we are talking about here is a context and a backdrop whereby we have had, over the past 15 or so years, a successive number of inquiries commissioned by successive Governments which have told us that local government is massively underfunded and under-resourced to do the work that it does. Now, this is particularly pertinent here because what we\u2019re looking at with this clause is, as the Minister himself has just said, that increase from 10 to 14 percent in terms of what the Crown can recover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo my questions for the Minister are particularly related to any consideration that he, as Minister for Local Government, or indeed Minister for Auckland, may have given to that broader context of the resourcing which is available to local government in this country, given that he is looking to take more of that funding through this increase in the proportion of cost recovery to the Crown. Just to run through some of those reports, for those who are following along at home and may like to have those citations, we\u2019re talking here about the likes of the Shand inquiry, we\u2019re talking about the Productivity Commission review of the Shand inquiry\u2014which, actually, New Zealand First asked us to do back in the 2017 to 2020 term; I\u2019m dedicating this to the Hon Mark Patterson\u2014and then, of course, we had, most recently, I believe tabled at the end of last year, the Future for Local Government Review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAll of these reviews and inquiries have told us precisely the same thing: local government is not resourced to do what it needs to do to meet the challenges of our time, let alone the increased responsibilities and mandate that are placed on it by successive amendments to the Local Government Act 2002. It does not have the ability to generate the revenue necessary to meet those challenges and those tasks. As, actually, former Mayor of Wellington Celia Wade-Brown was just alluding to, the fact that we have had\u2014and consistently are seeing through the rate-setting processes with the long-term plans having gone out to consultation with communities over the last few months\u2014councils under immense pressure when it comes to setting their rates. I know that the Minister has had a lot of engagement with this in Auckland when it comes to his water plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo my specific question to the Minister is: what consideration, if any, in the development of this legislation\u2014and particularly in this clause when it comes to the Crown\u2019s ability to recover the cost\u2014did he have for the ability for local government to generate alternative revenue streams? And that unfairness in the context of the OECD, will we see far higher proportions allocated to the use of local government in relation to central government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00221cc4a629c58348cab709cb76230bdde7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cc4a629c58348cab709cb76230bdde7\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is about the 10 and 14 percent\u2014the relationship of that. My question to the Minister, which has been asked but not answered, is about whether the costing is about individual fines or the quantum; the volume of fines, and how that relates to the so-called cost recovery. Because if we look at the volume of fines, actually there\u2019s been a bigger volume and, therefore, the cost recovery would have got smaller\u2014in fact, to the point, probably, the evidence would show that there would be a negative cost recovery element required. So we haven\u2019t had that specific question answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EOn the back of that, I would like to speak to my tabled amendment, which is to say that rather than saying from \u201C10 percent\u201D to \u201C14 percent\u201D for the cost recovery, I think that a better amendment would be just to make it 0 percent. We don\u2019t seem to have, from the discussion in the Chamber, an evidence base by which to measure the costs that need to be recovered. We haven\u2019t had answered whether it\u2019s by individual fine or by quantum. The most prudent thing to do in the absence of evidence, which I have asked about, is to, basically, make the effect of this bill neutral. That way, we would probably be able to pass it, we could all go home, and we wouldn\u2019t have to stay here all weekend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut it is contentious when we\u2019ve got this 4 percent increase and we still haven\u2019t got to the point of how that was achieved. If I look at the numbers, we\u2019ve got evidence that the spend by the courts in collecting fines was $43 million and $99 million in 2023. So there\u2019s been quite a leap there, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m suggesting that if we\u2019re looking at the volume of fines, the cost recovery would seem to go on\u2014if you thought of a graph, instead of the numbers going up and the graph going up, the graph would go down. So that is why I think my tabled amendment would help to get us out of a spot of bother. We could actually just make it sort of fiscally neutral impact, but we could still go ahead and pass the bill. So my amendment just simply says, \u201CIn clause 4, replace \u201814 percent\u2019 with \u20180 percent\u2019.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019d be happy to not have that happen if I could understand from the Minister what the mathematics is underlying the suggestion of the 4\u00A0percent. We\u2019ve heard it\u2019s cost recovery of debt collectors, but there are no numbers around that and I\u2019m really curious to know: what debt collectors were consulted with? What numbers did he look at? Were there a range of debt collectors across a range of councils across New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EJust a little bit more sunlight on that would help us to get a better handle on what the problem is that we\u2019re trying to fix. In the absence of that\u2014and I\u2019m an optimist, so I do hope that the Minister will answer it\u2014I\u2019d suggest that my amendment is an easy way out of a tricky situation that would help us to progress this bill, fiscally neutral, just replace \u201C14\u00A0percent\u201D with \u201C0\u00A0percent\u201D. That way, even if there\u2019s no evidence of whether the costs are going up or down in terms of recovery and whether actually a profit is already being made, at least we could be seen as being responsible because we have something that is not purporting to say that it\u2019s based on evidence when, so far in this debate, we haven\u2019t heard any evidence. So I\u2019m really keen to get the Minister to respond to that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022996310f1fe7d47ae9a4f224a2d4b8709\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022996310f1fe7d47ae9a4f224a2d4b8709\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb. Oh, sorry\u2014the honourable Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224613425a8779433aa5d13542b4584cd6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Aw, you called me, Madam Chair!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227087ff1f724944d0b5006f8cd57c303a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll get a turn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002270afee0b36094c95bd8e28061e778916\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270afee0b36094c95bd8e28061e778916\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the member\u2019s question. We will not be supporting her tabled amendment, because, of course, what that tabled amendment does is it would, effectively, mean that we would not be achieving cost recovery and, instead, we\u2019d be having to take money from other parts of government to, effectively, fund this particular function of ensuring that people pay their fines. So whilst that member might seem that putting it down to 0 percent is a good idea, that would mean we wouldn\u2019t be getting cost recovery, which means we\u2019d have to be getting general taxation to pay the cost of this\u2014which is not good policy and we are avoiding that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c00e7b4f92254d60ac01eabe6625261b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c00e7b4f92254d60ac01eabe6625261b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb, and it\u2019s only second time lucky for you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002290146e152bbe4d55aa5fea78017917fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290146e152bbe4d55aa5fea78017917fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s right. Don\u2019t worry, I can have a third round later. I\u2019d be very happy to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fdfdc53764f4da7a34b3952326f33e5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll see. Depends how relevant this contribution is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4cd7b1deeff46d98b89b89c68ed50a8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: This is bang on, because I want to talk about the amount of this increase here. There are a couple of things that come out of it. In particular, in the statement, it talks about the impact of this particular increase on members of the public. This Government that we\u2019ve got is very keen to look after the squeezed middle, I think they call them, and they talk a big talk about low-income New Zealanders, but the impact statement says, \u201CLow-income individuals are likely to be disproportionately impacted by increasing costs.\u201D You know, I hadn\u2019t thought about this, but, of course, they\u2019re the ones who are likely to be unable to pay on time in the first place, and so they\u2019re the ones who are going to get whacked with these increased costs. So I want to know from the Minister whether he actually turned his mind to the question of what impact this would have on New Zealanders who are struggling to get by with costs going up, and so on, and this, in fact, is an increased cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing is this: he\u2019s chosen\u2014it\u2019s been plucked out of Minister Goldsmith\u2019s head\u2014this 4\u00A0percent figure. He said it\u2019s because he uses the Consumers Price Index (CPI). It\u2019s actually a 40\u00A0percent increase on 10 percent. He said he used CPI, but that makes no sense, because if we use the CPI every, say, five years, eventually you\u2019ll get to 100\u00A0percent. That can\u2019t possibly be right to take 100 percent of the fine. Look, my colleague Ingrid Leary is always the radical on this side of the House. I\u2019m the moderate! So I proposed in my tabled amendment just a mere reduction to 5 percent to really address the fact that the most struggling New Zealanders are the ones who are going to be most heavily hit with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I do have some other amendments, and I\u2019ll take guidance from the Chair on where they fit, because, in fact, the other amendment I have is one which talks about giving the court a discretion, because, in many ways, it would be appropriate for the court to have some discretion, because it does in respect of many aspects of fines, and it would be appropriate for the court to have discretion in respect of whether or not this 14 percent goes left or right. So that\u2019s an additional proposition that I have for the Minister. But my real question is this\u2014and\u00A0the reason I want to change that figure is because this impacts those who are struggling the most. It doesn\u2019t impact people who pay their fines on time because they\u2019ve got good life admin and plenty of money to do it. My suggestion is that what\u2019s proposed in this bill and what\u2019s outlined in the impact statement is, in fact, really just too tough on working New Zealanders, who are struggling to make ends meet\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a74c7fff2e2402ba9e52af59e6a3816\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Who you didn\u2019t want to give a tax cut to!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022083a90c0cb414bdd9a5ae90ca0bfe87f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: There you go\u2014Mr Watts over there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d7e2c8119184b03a95dfb990f9a3df3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So that\u2019s the statement. Can we have the question for the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae945c533f4f41109ece758055bc6ffe\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the question for the Minister is twofold. I have asked it. The first question is: will he agree to my amendment to reduce that increase down to a gross 5 percent figure? And the second one is: when he set that number of a 40\u00A0percent increase, what consideration did he give to the impact on members of the public, and did he take into account the advice set out in his impact statement that says it will disproportionately impact\u2014and I\u2019ve got it here somewhere\u2014low-income New Zealanders and also M\u0101ori and Pasifika? I\u2019m sure it says that in there as well. Those, Madam Chair, are my questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5fa36ba37124f668029460fd9413393\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5fa36ba37124f668029460fd9413393\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I listened very carefully. I think there were two questions. The first was: will we support his tabled amendment? The answer to that one is no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe second is in regards to the impact. Well, the point of this clause is that it is about how much the Crown retains of that particular fee, and it is not to do with the fee. Those are two separate issues. This is just the percentage retained, and, ultimately, that is very different from what the fee will actually be. So, ultimately, this actually impacts how much the local council would be getting from that fine, not what individuals would be paying. So, therefore, they are two very separate issues, and the answer, as I said to his tabled amendment, is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed1bca66d0f242eba59eb8d9c61d028d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed1bca66d0f242eba59eb8d9c61d028d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just going to say, before I take another call, that we are talking about the change here proposed, from 10 percent to 14 percent, and that\u2019s all we\u2019re debating right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00225123cd3ff901448482d99ac2b5c65670\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225123cd3ff901448482d99ac2b5c65670\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a new line of questions on this change, clause 4, from 10 percent to 14 percent that will be able to be deducted by the Crown from fines imposed by councils in the prosecutions of\u00A0those. They are straight questions, and I hope the Minister can give me answers to my six questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo the first is: on the average fine imposed by, or on behalf of, local authorities, what percentage of that amount that the Crown deducts represents real costs? I ask that because even though we\u2019ve been presented by a cost statement along with the papers, we haven\u2019t got any numbers in that around what the real costs actually are for the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy second question, which relates to that, is: if it is 100 percent, is the Crown at the moment subsidising the prosecution of parking fines on behalf of local government? Is it the case that taxpayers are paying for local governments to levy parking fines and then enforce them? That\u2019s a really useful thing for the committee to understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy third question is: if it\u2019s not 100 percent, then what are those real costs? Because we\u2019re talking about the cost recovery element here, so I want to understand. These are fines imposed for offences prosecuted by, or on behalf of, local authorities and other organisations. So that\u2019s not the prosecution of those. Prosecution of those actually sits with the local councils already. Most local councils conduct the prosecutions themselves. So is this a back-office cost that the Crown imposes on its regulation-making power to make those prosecutorial powers, or is this another cost represented somewhere as a back-office cost? I\u2019d like to understand what those real costs are. That\u2019s the third question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe fourth question is: which payment providers collect fines on behalf of local providers now? In the documents presented alongside this bill, we heard that some councils have elected to use private providers already. However, the Minister, in answer to questions to me, told me that it was the Ministry of Justice only that collected these fines. There are two points that I\u2019m getting at there. And, to assist the Minister, the Ministry of Justice uses private providers to levy its payments, but then I\u2019m also asking: if the Ministry of Justice is not providing that service to the local councils, then who is? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy fifth question is: does the increase from 10 to 14 percent include any money awarded by a court in respect of any loss or damage? The question there is about what kind of money that\u2019s being collected here will be subject to the 4 percent increase, given that my other questions have been about whether this is, in fact, cost recovery or whether it\u2019s another kind of fee, levy, or penalty, as I described it in my second reading speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy last question to the Minister is: is an Order in Council the appropriate way for councils to have their parking fines set? This is relevant to clause 4 because it goes alongside the regulation-making powers that are done by Order in Council. And this goes to a wider set of considerations, here, that we have not yet had a chance to debate: what is the appropriate policy for parking fines? Should they be high? That disincentivises people to park their cars in a certain area, and that is a policy decision, so why is it being made by Order in Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy question there is: should it not be in the primary legislation? We haven\u2019t gotten into that yet. But, on the other hand, we\u2019ve got this power that applies in exactly the same way to the court fees. You argue the toss pretty differently if you\u2019re applying the same sorts of values there. If fees are going up for people to have a conversation about whether they were, in fact, parked there, about whether the fine was levied in the right way or in the situation that my colleague Ingrid Leary described where there\u2019s been some kind of administrative error, then you\u2019re making it harder for people to engage in the system, and, ultimately, that affects those people who already have high barriers to access to justice. So we need to understand the Minister\u2019s justification here for using Orders in Council instead of primary legislation or, at least, properly understood secondary legislation mechanisms, which the primary bill gives effect to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022337f61c994e44e9d8ff477772056b79d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022337f61c994e44e9d8ff477772056b79d\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to return to the line of questioning that I put to the Minister earlier, which, unfortunately, we\u2019re yet to elicit a response to, and that is particularly around the considerations that may have been given to the impact on local government revenue. In fact, we have heard a lot from this Minister, including throughout the election campaign, when it comes to the money that local government has to play with to meet the challenges of our time and that infrastructural deficit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe heard just before in responses to other questions, particularly from the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, that the Minister was saying that if we did not make this increase from 10\u00A0percent to 14 percent, then we would end up with, basically, the shortfall being paid for out of general taxation. Now, this is a really important point and a question that I want to get a response from the Minister on, because, actually, not all too recently, we had a bill in front of this House in the form of the Housing Infrastructure (GST Sharing) Bill from the ACT Party, and we had a really interesting contribution from a member, which called this \u201Ca sensible piece of pragmatism which is sorely missing in this House.\u201D Going to the point that this was about GST or Government revenue sharing, which the Minister has just said that he is opposed to with local government. That contribution calling this \u201Ca sensible piece of pragmatism which is sorely missing in this House\u201D was from none other than the Hon Simon Watts, now our Minister of Revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ETo that effect, my question for the Minister is: whether those statements that he offered in response to the questioning from the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, about how he does not intend to use general taxation in order to help support local government, is to be seen as a movement away from the kind of support that we\u2019ve seen not only from the ACT Party historically but also actually from New Zealand First, who\u2019s campaigned on policies such as GST sharing. So my question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dd016db594c4e3db4b9adc1f630ea25\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re a bit out of scope. So I want to see the question in scope, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca88f1420444454da800e132dcb979d3\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: My question for the Minister is: did he have any meaningful consideration for other revenue-raising measures that local government may have in the consideration of this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d99a0f04b6504813a4d954e9dcf9a3bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d99a0f04b6504813a4d954e9dcf9a3bd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I just want to remind members that this is a very narrow section in this bill. It is simply about replacing 10 percent with 14 percent. As I answered that member when she asked her question earlier about the total cost impact, all of the entities which are affected, the total amount that this will cost for all entities, including local government, is $285,000 in the next financial year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u002202e6b5ced17e471ca24af97ffcc5a58f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202e6b5ced17e471ca24af97ffcc5a58f\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002250038b13f8b54f40ae856cfc05e9d4ff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022419ce784010e48d0ae37482481f1db47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022419ce784010e48d0ae37482481f1db47\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4 to replace \u201C14%\u201D with \u201C5%\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022986a5b116b584f6c8118bc4d02757c27\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228f0d2ea8511d41c9ba2aa373286fc3aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f0d2ea8511d41c9ba2aa373286fc3aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ingrid Leary\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4 to replace \u201C14%\u201D with \u201C0%\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228eeee313160448ad90016d1d59cc036e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002229b7fb09edc44cb1abc8ffa29ea4d490\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227839672c9f4c499c8d7cccfedea111c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227839672c9f4c499c8d7cccfedea111c1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new clause 4A to provide compensation for victims and complainants is ruled out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new clause 4A to provide discretion to the court in the percentage of fines retained is ruled out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed3092bb95c7495a8ffe255003588a12\u0022\u003EClause 5  Schedule 1 amended \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022be81d723ed77447195fa068a84009bf1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be81d723ed77447195fa068a84009bf1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to clause 5. This is the debate on clause 5, \u201CSchedule 1 amended\u201D, and the Schedule. The question is that clause\u00A05 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00227c3c349904da4cfa88d64597c628779a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c3c349904da4cfa88d64597c628779a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E This is a Schedule which just makes it very, very, very clear that the change from 10 percent to 14 percent only applies to fines which are recovered and imposed \u201Con or after 1\u00A0July\u00A02024\u201D. The 10\u00A0percent figure \u201Ccontinues to apply to an amount of a fine recovered\u2014(a) on or after 1\u00A0July \u2026 (b) [but] in respect of a fine imposed before 1\u00A0July\u201D. So, effectively, if a council is fining someone today, but, of course, it may take some time for that fine to go through the system, because that fine was based on a date before 1\u00A0July, it\u2019ll be based at 10 percent. If that fine is issued on or after 1\u00A0July, then it will be 14 percent. So this is, effectively, a subsequent amendment to ensure that there is no retrospectivity based on the date of the fine\u2014a very sensible and sound change. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00226ab8d49037944c49a0bb9c3aa6fa8307\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ab8d49037944c49a0bb9c3aa6fa8307\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister for pointing that out, because he actually informed me of some of the mechanics there that I wasn\u2019t fully aware of. That was very useful. So thank you. Always happy to cooperate if the Government knows what it\u2019s doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut one of the questions I do have is about the tail here, because, as the Minister says, the new regime applies only to fines imposed on or after 1\u00A0July, and the old section continues to apply in respect of a fine imposed before or recovered after 1\u00A0July\u00A02024. But I guess the question I have is this: there\u2019s going to be a whole lot of fines out there\u2014you know, hundreds of thousands of these things\u2014and some of them grind their way through the courts slowly. Is he confident that there\u2019s a system in place where you\u2019re going to be able to silo off these ones that might be six months, 18 months old and have to be dealt with quite differently, because this is going to be, presumably, two entirely separate systems, and what\u2019s the process for separately tagging\u2014well, the language of the Act is the fines under the old section, and making sure they\u2019re distinct from the fines under the new section, which is the amended section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s really a pretty simple question, because what we don\u2019t want to see is a whole lot of confusion and the Invercargill situation cropping up, where we had to go back and get the IT experts in, unwind the whole thing, and start doing additional payments. So it\u2019s really about that shrinking tranche of fines which were imposed prior to 1\u00A0July, but where they go to court after 1\u00A0July and are, therefore, subject to the old section\u2014what\u2019s the system for making sure that that all works?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022f36e06b1a0e04e35a597b4b71aff1618\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f36e06b1a0e04e35a597b4b71aff1618\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The answer to that question is called the calendar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3beb3a027a3431684438134bcfc68d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3beb3a027a3431684438134bcfc68d5\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is indeed related to the provisions relating to the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill 2024 Part 4, and I\u2019m\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267da56ecc8334a7e96493338a38000a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re on Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271ec8fe3e17246e78a974eb9b1ad2d3b\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Part 5. Part 4 is scheduled into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248fe6106f2c44b4bae5cf159863a1668\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s missed Part 4. Does the member have\u2014is it Part 4 of the Schedule\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218254feea0c641f48425a14779ef546f\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8a2ef6b52494b7cb2e8a7bd9f41ca8d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it Part 5\u2014Part 4 of the Schedule, is that what your\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8025cda53974cfd9bf5e40e249e34ef\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c71dfb0b34c4409aafcec5877a3eb570\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Right. I\u2019m glad we clarified that. Keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da6ba36c5f1a4d81941b1178476b9cec\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Madam Chair. Thank you. My question, really, is: has he considered the cost of administrating? So it sort of follows on from my colleague Duncan Webb\u2019s question: has he considered the cost of administrating the 10 percent of fines and the 14 percent of fines with that differential in timing? Because we\u2019ve heard from the Minister that this is a Government of action. But, actually, what we\u2019re seeing is a bit of chaos here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got several questions. I\u2019m interested: has the Minister actually considered simply stopping the process here, allowing us to consider it more properly through a select committee process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d3f1b762c646b8a8cb330d7bcce439\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we\u2019re\u2014[Interruption] Stop just a moment. I\u2019d really like this to be at the point\u2014because it really is about fines imposed before the start of this, as opposed to fines after, and I think the Minister\u2019s clarified that very well. So I need questions to be related to specifically that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207cb70f0ec41466ba263e4f276c03439\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and that is exactly my point, because I would like to know\u2014[Interruption] If I may without the distractions, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f616e424d0e048fd94a4e1cb55eb300d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Ignore the distractions; just ask the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022362c0c65254742daa559a0e6071d5269\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to know what the costs are associated with those fines. Let\u2019s see, the old section continues to apply for fines imposed before 1\u00A0July. So how are we going to manage the administration of that and what will the costs be associated with those costs that accrue a 10 percent fine, as opposed to the different 14 percent fine after that? How much has that been calculated? How has that been calculated? And is there any work under way to make sure we understand the true cost of this? Because, really, this may seem like a very inconsequential and silly piece of legislation, to be frank, but there\u2019s a true cost associated with it and it relates to that differential in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo if we could have some clarity about how the Minister has been able to judge the value of this legislation and breaking it down with that old section to apply for fines imposed before 1\u00A0July, I think that would be very helpful for us to understand because, really, we\u2019re here\u2014we\u2019re not in a select committee; we\u2019re doing this through urgency. We have to get as much information out as we can in a very, very pressed environment. We really don\u2019t want to drag this on. We want the Speaker to be able to get his 2\u00A0o\u2019clock flight tomorrow but we also want to know what the answer is, and this is an important question. I know the members opposite are really keen to get on the road but we need to do this properly, given that we don\u2019t have the luxury of select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo, please, if the Minister could come back to giving us that breakdown of what the difference in the date is going to make for the cost of implementing this piece of legislation. There\u2019s perhaps another question there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220f3d5aedd014e04a698fd986f9faf55\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205220c9ce88e4414b0cdd64c513a0c6d\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes\u2014oh yes!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fffbf1d21e4416aa74133aa0307f4f9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Make it quick and make it relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1f32bdcc87b47c6a616f7749c2025f8\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m attempting to. Thank you, Madam Chair. No, the relevance is, really: did the Minister also talk to local government about that difference? That is really key here, because local government is going to need to know this as well. So there\u2019s two questions there and I\u2019d appreciate an answer please. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002205cc2c4471814836bfc3c0a87906e859\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205cc2c4471814836bfc3c0a87906e859\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E There were two very simple questions in there. The first was in relation to cost recovery and I was pleased to hear the member actually ask about cost recovery. Page\u00A09 of the cost recovery impact statement is quite useful in outlining that this will raise $285,000 in year one. So that answers the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe second question, which eventually the member got to, was in relation to consultation, and page\u00A010 actually has a section on consultation in relation to this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4cbfdd4a2f7411a867fef550c6d9b04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4cbfdd4a2f7411a867fef550c6d9b04\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take another question now, from Arena Williams, but I feel like right now we\u2019re dancing on the head of a pin, because it\u2019s a very small piece of legislation and this needs to really home in on this Schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022072da53559d442aead88c6170e932c32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022072da53559d442aead88c6170e932c32\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister three questions about the difference between the provisions which will apply before July and the provisions which will apply after July. The first question is about, given that there are a number of councils that will be referring parking fines into the court systems, what procedural unfairness exists between those councils that progress them quickly and those councils that progress them slowly? We might assume, because we haven\u2019t been provided this in the documents, that smaller councils progress these matters with greater periods of time involved, because the administration between levying the fine and then progressing it to enforcement might perhaps be longer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m asking about that procedural unfairness because different rates will apply at different times, but, essentially, committing exactly the same offence in one town might result in a different result for claiming an offence in another town, and I want to understand what that difference is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second question is: how many court sessions are in train now? Because my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has been asking questions about how the delay in timing will affect prosecutions that are on foot now. We haven\u2019t got any information to understand the size of that problem. The Minister simply answered that the answer was\u00A0the calendar, but what we\u2019re trying to get to here is how many people are impacted by what is, essentially, a procedural unfairness here, given that there is a change of law and a change of timing for exactly the same offences being prosecuted in exactly the same\u00A0way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe third question is: have the courts taken these changes into account in their systems? And the fourth question is: has an appropriation been made for the Minister for Courts for any flow-on costs expected from this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc28c48e61e74b23a22d1e40f17e0ebd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc28c48e61e74b23a22d1e40f17e0ebd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E To answer the member\u2019s question, there is no procedural unfairness because the point of this whole part is to ensure that for fines collected before that date, there is a lower amount; after that date, there\u2019s a higher amount, and the imposition is on the council, not on the individual. Then the question there is around the cost of actually implementing it. I would just like to remind members that it is well worth reading the cost recovery impact statement which actually even states the estimated cost to implement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u002247505d32e78a456c9b6ddb3a85247da4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247505d32e78a456c9b6ddb3a85247da4\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002218c3b6e623bb4c1c8de102b498442063\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002243608036afa14d888133a064d2d8ac42\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002247c03909d4294d41a55c156fd369ac2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247c03909d4294d41a55c156fd369ac2a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I\u2019m sorry if I anticipated you, but were we going to get to the tabled amendment on that schedule?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002240c89f44fe29487eaf0caca04ba0d6da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240c89f44fe29487eaf0caca04ba0d6da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a tabled amendment, still, on my sheet here. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022889032b0fb344c2a862a772c8c1bf96d\u0022\u003ESchedule \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022da17750208d04b36be604494b862e41e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da17750208d04b36be604494b862e41e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to the Schedule now, and the Schedule has no debate. But the question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to the Schedule to replace \u201C1\u00A0July\u00A02024\u201D with \u201C1\u00A0January\u00A02025\u201D throughout be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f77d4d81ce6042f3b69d330952744c89\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e246f1f08ae451ea258a3e7dd5932c8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001171\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001172\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227a65745adf074443870749bb09d5225a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a65745adf074443870749bb09d5225a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker\u2014[Interruption] can we have quiet while we\u2019re reporting, please\u2014the committee has considered the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82a3954b0464b86a3ee42512c3457bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82a3954b0464b86a3ee42512c3457bc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002295ed86ae3bbf40fbbaf6dfc386cb7191\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002254692a09973140bf897270847a6fd56f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254692a09973140bf897270847a6fd56f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I move, That the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill is in line with the coalition Government\u2019s commitment to reduce debt, reduce Government spending, and get back to surplus. The bill will increase from 10 percent to 14 percent the amount that the Crown can retain from fines, including infringement fines such as parking fines, collected by the Ministry of Justice on behalf of local authorities and other organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThat increase will come into effect on 1\u00A0July\u00A02024. The bill has been developed as part of the response to the Budget priority to deliver effective and fiscally sustainable public services\u2014listen up, Labour!\u2014and identify enduring savings across Government departments and agencies. The increase in the percentage the Crown can retain from fines collected by the Ministry of Justice is expected to increase net revenue by $2.697 million across 2024-25 to 2028-29. The increase in the percentage retained by the Crown from fines collected on behalf of local authorities and other organisations better reflects the increased costs of operating court services over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIt is fair that users of courts\u2019 collection and enforcement services, who receive most of the fines collected, pay an appropriate fee for those services. The bill is a part of a package of proposals which will increase revenue from changes to the collection of court fines and increases to fees in courts and tribunals. This bill, along with other changes, will ensure the more effective collection and enforcement of fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe overarching goals of the Government are to build a stronger, more productive economy, deliver more efficient, effective, and responsible public services, and get the Government\u2019s books back in balance. This bill will support that goal. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223eb6f10b808e45a8aba0cb3c4b7904e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223eb6f10b808e45a8aba0cb3c4b7904e7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002288fa0503abb54db4bb0b64e1132cc8a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288fa0503abb54db4bb0b64e1132cc8a8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a tragic little day in Parliament when the Government\u2019s getting excited about imposing a tax on parking fines. This document, the cost recovery impact statement, is really all you need to read. I mean, what it sets out is just a list of shortcomings in this policy. Throughout the debate so far, no one\u2019s actually touched on the options in the document that have not been considered. It runs through a number of options, but it, basically, says, \u201CWe didn\u2019t look at anything else.\u201D\u2014it\u2019s as if you wanted to run a lesson on how not to do good public policy\u2014\u201CWe didn\u2019t want to look at anything else, because \u2018This was not possible in the time available. Other alternative options could not be explored due to time constraints.\u2019 \u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo here we\u2019ve got a Government who talks about doing things right and efficiently and all those kinds of things, and yet they won\u2019t take the time to make sure that the framework they\u2019re putting in place, even for something like how we collect fines and how that\u2019s paid for\u2014they won\u2019t actually just do the work, because, of course, here it is: \u201CTo progress this option\u201D\u2014which was removing the initial filing fee to lower the barriers for local councils\u2014\u201Cextensive consultation and data collection would be required to determine whether it would be worth progressing\u201D. And then it says, \u201CWe basically couldn\u2019t be bothered doing that\u2014couldn\u2019t be bothered consulting.\u201D That\u2019s the Government we\u2019ve got now. They\u2019re imposing costs on local bodies, and they couldn\u2019t be bothered consulting on whether there was a better way to go about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd6ca518dc1b4e2aa838f5779101b025\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s much bigger things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022549b6827d5f94a23b8004a7babd21238\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, funny you say, Mr Foster, that there\u2019s much bigger things to do, but here we are 10\u00A0o\u2019clock on a Friday night, and we\u2019re debating this trivial little parking tax bill. And, of course, over there, they\u2019ve been saying, \u201COh, this is all about good stewardship and cost recovery.\u201D But the document itself makes it very, very clear what the motivation behind this bill is: \u201CTo support the Government\u2019s Budget priority of finding $1.5 billion per annum in savings\u201D to fill their cavernous fiscal hole that this Budget has. [Interruption] Hey, look, on the other side, you have got the pride of place of being the largest borrowing Government in New Zealand history. You have just incurred\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ef18728012e48fabc4023511c07f3ba\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217c3a1cc800d4d9f8b9ea0d3cfde3b20\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: No. That Government has just got the pride of place of being the largest borrowing Government in history, which, over the next four years, has to find $9 billion in interest payments. And this is how you\u2019re going to do it. That\u2019s right; it\u2019s you. The Government just borrowed billions of dollars for tax cuts for landlords, and they are filling this fiscal hole with $200,000 of cost recovery. It is absolutely ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that there are some pretty clear guidelines about how levies and charges should be imposed. In fact, the document there sets out quite clearly that the costs recovered should be justifiable. And the Minister in the chair couldn\u2019t actually tell us in any coherent way what those costs were\u2014what was the equitable proportion to be borne by the State or the council, and what was the equitable proportion to be borne elsewhere by the person who had the parking fine. So that is part of the process to actually go through and think about what is an equitable and just way to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd the irony is that in the document there\u2019s basically a checklist that\u2019s got the principles on one side and the assessment on the other, but they bear no relationship to each other, because none of those principles of good lawmaking, good regulation, and good levying and charging exist. So they don\u2019t even know, for example, whether it\u2019s efficient. Is this the best way to go about recovering these costs? And then it just gives you a long paragraph about how many there are and gives you a description of how it operates. It does not say that we have thought about how we could recover costs and this is the most efficient way to do it, or it\u2019s not the most efficient but it is the most simple and that\u2019s the trade-off we choose. That\u2019s the kind of analysis we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, the one that really sticks in the craw is equity: \u201CThe charges should be administratively fair: identify the impacts of cost recovery, do not seek to recover costs from one group that could benefit a previous or future group.\u201D This is so that it\u2019s spread out evenly. Now, the irony is that if you have a $1,000 fine, the cost recovery will be $140. If you have a $100, the cost recovery will be $14. So the costs of recovery are going to be the same, but there is a massive cross-subsidisation in there. So a percentage figure on a radically varying amount is actually quite inequitable. That\u2019s what this Government\u2014and this is a Government that is spending tens and tens of millions of dollars in setting up a vanity Ministry for Regulation so that these kinds of things are done right. And then, straight out of the gate, with one hand they throw cash at David Seymour\u2019s ministry, and at the very same moment, the other hand is doing rubbish like this which just cuts across all\u00A0of\u00A0the regulatory principles. We don\u2019t need a Ministry for Regulation, the principles are all there, the answers are terrible, but the questions are the right questions, so we don\u2019t need it at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, the other thing in this document which this Government should be ashamed of is the fact that it makes it clear that the burden will fall hardest on those who are struggling most. This is part of a package which is seeking to fill the Government\u2019s coffers. And when you look at who\u2019s paying, it\u2019s people who don\u2019t have the money to pay their parking fines\u2014people who can\u2019t find the money to pay infringement offences. They might have scrabbled around, pinned the infringement notice to the noticeboard by the kitchen or on the fridge or whatever, and then they\u2019ve put it away because they know they either have food in the fridge or pay the parking fine. They\u2019ve made that trade-off, they\u2019ve chosen to feed their kids, and all of a sudden they get the notice from the court or from the local body saying \u201CYou\u2019ve got to turn up to court. It\u2019s now not only a $40\u00A0fine, it\u2019s a $100 court cost, and if you choose to argue it, it\u2019s going to be more costs on top of that.\u201D That\u2019s who\u2019s going to be paying, ultimately, for these increased charges, which are part of this package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve got a Government here that\u2019s chosen to splash money around, particularly offensively, for landlords, and then they\u2019re saying, \u201COh, we\u2019ve got it all from savings over here.\u201D And, on the other hand, they\u2019re borrowing money\u2014billions of dollars; they\u2019re borrowing billions of dollars. So you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed32e9201c941e58db8bb70af7621af\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: You borrowed $100 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b5db663912b43de85485e3f184f3001\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Now, you\u2019re not allowed to heckle from there, Mr Bayly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232173722375e41beb0c8ed88da89282b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s true, Mr Bayly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f33db037f76c4a659f5e4ede79d6854c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: The fact of the matter is that we\u2019ve got a Government that\u2019s failed at the first hurdle. They\u2019ve made all kinds of promises. They\u2019re scrabbling around for $200,000 in cost recovery, and here they are disappointing New Zealanders by breaking their election promises\u2014serious election promises. Not the $250 tax break promise\u2014we all knew that was a joke\u2014but there are people out there who honestly believed that they were going to get their cancer medicines because they were promises seriously made to serious people. And that is a tragedy. That is an affront. And there are people out there who are heartbroken because this Government promised that they would be taking certain steps, that they would be funding certain medicines, and they\u2019re not. And those people are sitting there and this is all the Government can do. A little bill\u2014a\u00A0terrible little bill\u2014that scrabbles around, looking for a few hundred thousand dollars here and there. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EYeah, no, I can see why you\u2019re hanging your heads\u2014I would too\u2014because you\u2019ve made big promises and you\u2019ve let people down, and you come up with a bill like this which actually\u2014the very similar people, people who are in hardship and struggling, you\u2019re bashing them down again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238d612b11a08487d926970c09d670199\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not me, Mr Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229535b7e7abeb494cb2222986ad0653f6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s shameful. No, you\u2019re not. Those Government members are bashing them down again and it\u2019s shameful, it\u2019s a terrible piece of legislation, and it\u2019s\u00A0a\u00A0terrible way to pass it with this kind of urgency as well. What a waste of this House\u2019s time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3644a75cff74f158d46b9fefc57109f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3644a75cff74f158d46b9fefc57109f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is quite the \u201CInequality and War on Poor\u201D Budget, and this legislation makes it incredibly, incredibly clear. This is shambles legislation and fiscal irresponsibility from this Government, because they\u2019re just looking after those who are already doing it well, rather than looking after those struggling to make ends meet. They will cut costs at any expense, even if it means throwing people in poverty down a cliff who are criminalised as a result of not being able to afford fines. And for all their complaining on the other side\u2014don\u2019t\u00A0trust me; trust the advice; trust the legislation and the pieces of paper they\u2019ve put in front of us. They\u2019ve written it themselves. The Government worked on this legislation, and now they\u2019re shaking their heads and, effectively, telling the public that they\u2019re delivering for everyone, when they\u2019re leaving behind those doing it the toughest. This legislation was a result of a desperate attempt at finding ways to put the burden on the poor to pay for tax cuts for those doing it well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo, throughout the debate, it\u2019s been clear that the Minister in the chair, for all his talk about localism and his commitment to actually put in place solutions that would work for local communities, doesn\u2019t take his own words seriously. If we look at the pieces of paper in front of us, there was no consultation with key stakeholders impacted by this legislation, and this includes local authorities, Local Government New Zealand, the judiciary\u2014this is absolutely irresponsible and a betrayal by the Minister himself, who\u2019s supposedly committed to localism. It reeks of desperation for a Government that talks about things like localism to put forward legislation that directly impacts local government without even bothering to consult with them, because they don\u2019t care. They tell us that they care about localism, but they don\u2019t care. They simply care about holding true to their promise that they hate people in poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAnd let\u2019s make something clear too: this is a Government that does not care about criminalising people who are struggling to make ends meet. At the end of the day, those who cannot afford to pay fines will end up being criminalised and will end up with higher costs due to the enforcement fee increases. I\u2019ve seen this myself, as somebody who worked at the front line with people who are being criminalised as a result of unpaid fines. I\u2019ve seen people facing benefit sanctions like the warrant to arrest sanction, which Minister Louise Upston multiple times talked about in the media. She talked about how she thought that those people who had unpaid fines, who then faced sanctions, were a threat to the public. Then she had to face the truth in the media and was embarrassed by having to admit that, actually, that wasn\u2019t the case and that she was factually incorrect. [Interruption] And the members yelling on this side fail to connect the dots. While this may be a small bill, it\u2019s connected to so many parts of the system. The impact of the criminalisation of people in poverty who cannot afford to pay fines is clear and has ramifications in other parts of the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that will lead, I tell you, to higher warrant to arrest benefit sanctions. [Interruption] And the members on the other side would do well to turn their faces from this echo chamber back to the streets and the communities who this bill affects. But they\u2019ve shown us, time and time again, they don\u2019t care about the people who are out in the communities doing it the toughest. They will talk rhetoric and make no action, and clearly the pieces of paper in front of us show that this bill was produced hastily with no evidence. [Interruption] They just want to go home and not do the work. It\u2019s their fault. It is absolutely their fault that we\u2019re here in the House debating this piece of trash legislation, because it was them who put us in this position to begin with. We didn\u2019t want this. If it was up to me, we would be debating a bill that would be ending poverty and tackling the climate crisis, not a bill that criminalises people in poverty\u2014come on\u2014and\u00A0not a bill that betrays the Government\u2019s own supposed commitment to localism. Let\u2019s be real here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ELook, they may be complaining about what I am saying, but, ultimately, it\u2019s all in the regulatory impact statement. Do they not believe the advice that they themselves put in front of us? Come on; let\u2019s get real. Those members, like I said, need to turn their faces back to the street. The advice itself made it incredibly clear that it will be young people, particularly those under 45, who will face the burden of the negative impacts of this legislation. And this is a Government that\u2014let\u2019s be real\u2014when they talk about the advice around fines changing behaviour, it actually doesn\u2019t change the behaviour of people who are on our salaries and the wealthy few. It doesn\u2019t, because the fines that people often face are a free pass for those who are doing it well. A parking fine doesn\u2019t mean much for someone who owns multiple properties and is on a six-figure salary. It doesn\u2019t have good enough consequences. But, for someone who\u2019s actually on the bread line, it has a massive impact. As I\u2019ve said before, it\u2019s the difference between them paying their rent and putting food on the table. It doesn\u2019t actually change behaviours in the end\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614dd146ea55434c83a941f471f0b0ab\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why we gave them a tax cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ddc604a6074546b88ba1aa28b86a2b\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014if you\u2019re someone who\u2019s struggling to make ends meet. This is a Government that is, frankly\u2014yeah, tax cuts. They spoke about tax cuts. Want to talk about tax cuts in the context of this legislation, Mr Speaker? Well, let me tell you, Mr Speaker. They talk about tax cuts, but the people who will be criminalised for not being able to pay fines also happen to be the ones benefiting the least from the tax\u00A0cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s get real. There\u2019s nothing in this Budget or this legislation for the disabled people on income support or for people who have been living homeless\u2014it\u2019s\u00A0breadcrumbs. They\u2019ve told their communities that they deserve breadcrumbs and they, effectively, deserve higher fees, higher punishments, for unpaid fines as a result of this bill, at the same time depriving local government of key resources at a time where, actually, the Government should be putting in far more resources to local government to address our infrastructure challenges of today. We should actually be supporting and passing resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcd87c511d134d73bda530243441542c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Three minutes\u2014three more minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e796c4fb120b4163b4e072629f5d344b\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re saying, \u201Cthree minutes\u201D. They\u2019re complaining about the fact that we are actually holding them to account. You know, I challenge them to make a substantive contribution beyond their 12-second calls that make a mockery of this piece of legislation. But you know what? The circus is run by people who\u00A0themselves admit that this whole thing is just a show; it\u2019s a theatre for them. It\u2019s a performance for the people on the other side. This is not about serving our communities. This is about the theatre of Parliament. It takes a lot for people to come here and claim that\u00A0they\u2019re here to serve our communities, when they clearly make a whole circus out of serious issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EOnce again, when I call this Government fiscally irresponsible and illiterate, it\u2019s because trickle-down economics has not been shown to work. It is not based on evidence. In fact, we have decades of research and facts\u2014and younger people such as myself grew up in times affected by the impacts of failed policies such as these ones that claim to deliver for the many but all they end up doing is increasing inequality. So this bill, while it may not have the name explicitly in and of itself around increasing inequality, it will do exactly that. I challenge the members to talk to people in poverty who, because of poverty level benefits, haven\u2019t been able to pay their fines where they find themselves in court, potentially transient through multiple addresses, unable to present themselves to the criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think Parmjeet Parmar, to my left, who is shaking her head and looking confused\u2014but if I look at her contribution throughout multiple debates, she has constantly failed to actually speak to the heart of the bill that she speaks to. Again, this goes back to a Government that is deeply unserious, that will go to such dramatic lengths to orchestrate and fabricate tax cuts\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adf1e3bdce84457397c48403133e658c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: One minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267bd8436fac14925a8a6f5286c72ab74\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for the wealthy few\u2014and they\u2019ll continue yelling at me and saying, \u201COne minute\u201D and \u201CI hear the bell\u201D, but the truth is they\u2019ve landed us in this fiscal mess. At the end of the day, the cuts to public services and the inability to address poverty will have costs beyond what they can imagine in the long term, costs in our healthcare system, costs in our public housing system and emergency housing and, then, people getting more into debt just to make ends meet. Their short-term thinking will land us into long-term problems. This is a Government that has its head in the sand and refuses to see the truth, which is actually in front of us. This is a bill that will punish the poor. All it requires is the members to read their own advice they\u2019ve received to see the truth. The Green Party will continue opposing this and fighting for a system that works for all of us, not this Government\u2019s wealthy mates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00221dea6ea4c4bf405bbc52ac2a2e43ee69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dea6ea4c4bf405bbc52ac2a2e43ee69\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support the third reading of the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThat was a very interesting contribution from the Green member Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, and he did say that, yes, I looked confused and I was shaking my head. Definitely I was doing that, because I couldn\u2019t see which bill the member was speaking to. The bill that is in front of us doesn\u2019t bring any new sanctions; it just increases the percentage of the amount that is retained by the Crown for the fines that are collected by the Ministry of Justice. So that\u2019s why I was confused and I was shaking my head. I wish he had spent some time reading the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EVery quickly to respond to the Labour member the Hon Dr Duncan Webb. Dr Duncan Webb said that this bill is a waste of the House\u2019s time. No, I wish he had read the bill and understood the bill as well. It\u2019s a very sensible bill, and that is why the ACT Party is supporting this bill. I challenge those members to go out and buy that item they bought in 1989, now, at the same price. This 10 percent that is retained by the Crown has not been reviewed or changed since 1989, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s a sensible bill, and that\u2019s why the ACT Party is supporting this bill. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00224ea4454a19e349a18ab0081bedeeef57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ea4454a19e349a18ab0081bedeeef57\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I just wanted to remind the House of Speaker\u2019s ruling 65/3, which tells us to not do the countdown when we\u2019re looking at the clock. Do it inside your mind, if you must, but not aloud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u002292933c114a9c46fc9cf76d9947f2a540\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292933c114a9c46fc9cf76d9947f2a540\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sometimes less is more, and, on behalf of New Zealand First, I am going to commend this bill to the House because it\u2019s a really good bill. That\u2019s all I\u2019d like to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002214acdbe8526c4dc39c5c71b24b69085b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214acdbe8526c4dc39c5c71b24b69085b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call, and I think it\u2019s split between Labour and the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8ab4883de1f45e8ae7f41e7d96dcde2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8ab4883de1f45e8ae7f41e7d96dcde2\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve just got a lolly in my mouth, so I\u2019m just going to try and finish that up seamlessly so no one notices, and everything will be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90c0ed3074b4681831f3ec00e2f8a32\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know if there\u2019s a Speaker\u2019s ruling on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e8decb39ed145fe9bad39a3d28723bf\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Well, I mean, this is the third time I\u2019ve got the opportunity to speak on the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f706d0b67eb44b7ac0423ac7ecefbac\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: In just one evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a927c3f43d146049e37b376ba9d282b\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill in just one evening, as my colleague Rachel Brooking points out. That\u2019s because, obviously, we\u2019re in urgency and it always makes the bills feel a bit funny when there\u2019s not that break in between to just let things settle, to think about things, to think about the information\u2014sometimes new information, sometimes explanations from the Minister; all those things that might help create a better picture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EBut we\u2019re not afforded the opportunity to do that tonight, because we are here in urgency.\u00A0In fact, this is the second bill that the Government has chosen to put up as part of the suite of bills that it will be taking through the urgency process, which we can see now is obviously, clearly, going to take several days. It\u2019s the second bill that they\u2019ve chosen to put\u00A0up as part of the suite of bills that need to be passed in urgency as part of the Budget 2024. And what a wee ripper it is, isn\u2019t it? The crown jewel in the Government\u2019s suite of policies that they\u2019re introducing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI can understand that it\u2019s been a little bit vocal from the other side of the House tonight, as the Government backbenchers have got quite animated about this bill. Sometimes, opposite things happen and the less substantive something is the more you sort of overcompensate, so there has been an awful lot\u2014awful lot\u2014of overcompensation tonight. But this bill, specifically, is a means by which to collect money to make the Budget add up. We know that for two different reasons. We know that because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a4a4b223d340fc971e17fe51b91462\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: At least you\u2019re acknowledging it adds up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ee2b0a555a54eef983bd92ca5e0f832\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it says \u201CBudget\u201D\u2014I said to try and add it up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce903ca2c93429fb2a32554e2de3018\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: No, you didn\u2019t; you said, \u201Cso that it adds up\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae1d7e880ea4e5ab0810928be0d4abd\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Make a contribution\u2014make a contribution. He\u2019s animated. Oh, Mr Bates, Mr Bates, Mr Bates\u2014it\u2019s like you\u2019re just gagging to be in the\u00A0Hansard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe know that that\u2019s what it\u2019s for, because it occurs on two occasions\u2014firstly, in the title it literally says \u201CBudget Measures\u201D, and when you look at the cost recovery impact statement, as has been mentioned several times tonight, to support the Government\u2019s priority of finding $1.5 billion. And yet, on the other hand, here we are rushing through a process of urgency. We\u2019ve heard things tonight about the commencement date\u20141\u00A0July\u2014kind of thrust upon councils with almost certainly not the requisite amount of time needed to lead in to make sure that this is seamless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve talked tonight about the difference between good public policy and bad public policy and the fact that the Minister claimed that this was an example of good public policy, despite the fact that (a) there\u2019s almost no evidence that this needs to be done in the first place\u2014i.e., other costs not being met at the moment\u2014and that (b) we keep hearing the same argument about some sort of inflationary effect with a proportion, a percentage of an amount, of course, which adjusts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo I think, finally, as has been mentioned on several occasions, we do need to consider this bill, and we\u2019re allowed to, because it says so in the title that it\u2019s about Budget measures. So we are allowed to, and it\u2019s incumbent upon us to consider it within the context of the Budget. As I said, the title affords us the opportunity to do that. And when I think about the context of the Budget, this is another means by which the Government has desperately been trying to find money to account for reckless tax cuts, and they\u2019ve found money in various places. This is certainly not a headline Act. This is a small amount of money in comparison\u2014certainly a small amount of money in comparison\u2014to the $3.3\u00A0billion worth of money that was hauled out of climate funding, and certainly a small amount of money compared to the 13 new cancer drugs that were promised as part of this Budget and were not delivered on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe Government were really, really specific about that, and I think it does bear mentioning. The Government were really, really specific, when they removed the exemption for the $5 prescription charge, that they were doing that to fund these drugs, and they haven\u2019t done that, which I think is deplorable. It\u2019s upsetting. And yet, as several people have said tonight, we could be debating those things, we could be talking about those things, but, no, we\u2019re not doing any of that; we are literally talking about a parking ticket tax. I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u00229e6ba3f8e94a45898365d8d52804b61d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e6ba3f8e94a45898365d8d52804b61d\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the Greens, we do not support the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. I support my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, who spoke about the disproportionate impact on M\u0101ori and Pacific that is listed by the Ministry of Justice. But I want to focus on the lack of good faith\u2014the lack of good faith\u2014with local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003ENo one who voted in the election\u2014that seems a very long time ago now\u2014expected that this cost would be rather randomly transferred from central government to local government. Nobody campaigned on that transfer, so I don\u2019t see why there is a justification for the urgency, for the complete lack of consultation, and for the complete lack of evidence. And how much revenue? Let\u2019s just take that little part that is coming from increasing the retained percentage: $285,000. Well, I can understand central government trying to scramble to pay for the $2.9\u00A0billion in tax cuts. This really isn\u2019t going to get there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThis amount of money is not collected in the rural councils. Many rural councils don\u2019t have parking enforcement at all, because they don\u2019t have those issues. It\u2019s going to be, fundamentally, the large urban councils that this will affect the most. And I would make a somewhat educated guess that probably about $100,000 of that will be directly to Auckland. They\u2019ve just gone out and they\u2019ve done their consultation on the long-term plan. I\u2019m horrified that $100,000 in a council\u2019s budget is landed on them from 1\u00A0July, when they have already set their budget and planning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EIt isn\u2019t the hugest quantum that councils have to deal with, but it\u2019s symptomatic of not respecting local government\u2019s consultation processes. It shows a disdain. Even if this had to be confidential because it\u2019s so urgent, such an important part of the Budget\u2014which I am sceptical about\u2014at least somebody could have let local government know yesterday when the Budget came out. But, no, they found out for themselves this morning. I don\u2019t think that shows due respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a78f958b86234977abb4863c8a1ac532\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Is that it? Are you sitting down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc0dee5ea1e4d75b8ddb6d50f3c50d0\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Wait and see\u2014wait and see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c6ba734b594b71b831ed82915a86fe\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Pause for effect\u2014I love it; it\u2019s powerful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fe9fa5cc81e4cc7876182cdcdea9d11\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just not sure what the effect might be, so we\u2019ll see! There is such limited financial information. There is no reasonable basis for decision making. Yes, it may be in the scheme of $2.9 million\u2014billion, sorry. Actually, it\u2019s small even compared to $2.9 million, but I don\u2019t think that the amount is an excuse for bad process. It\u2019s a studied arrogance rather than a partnership. There is nothing else in this whole\u00A0Budget that helps local government. There is nothing for city and regional deals. There is no GST back on rates, whether it\u2019s new developments or whether it\u2019s actually the whole of the rates system. Where is the money in the Budget for central government to pay rates on the buildings it owns? It\u2019s just an unfair system that could have been worked better in partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EMaybe we\u2019ll look forward to the next Budget actually having some lines where that money is returned, and, instead of having one of the lowest percentages of spending for local government compared to central government in the OECD, maybe we can balance things and give back more to the local community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThe other thing that has not been mentioned here is the suggestion that councils will be 45 percent\u2014I\u2019m not quite sure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdcba699019745efaa5b42964a4928d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdcba699019745efaa5b42964a4928d3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb1a64921d4a4d95a750f6c469fc9d9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb1a64921d4a4d95a750f6c469fc9d9b\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, we\u2019ve heard a lot tonight from members opposite about the length of contributions on both sides of the House\u2014especially this side of the House\u2014so, bearing that in mind, I just want to quote the full speech of Rachel Boyack from the third reading of the Income Insurance Scheme (Enabling Development) Bill, where Rachel Boyack said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CI\u00A0commend this bill to the House.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6f851a6a5814cfcba26e09f5edada76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6f851a6a5814cfcba26e09f5edada76\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. This is the third reading, and the member\u2019s comments should be confined to this bill. I think that the contribution was out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022104cac1356a44848a2df665e01c5a425\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022104cac1356a44848a2df665e01c5a425\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Point taken. Please focus on the bill. You may continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d62082f467042f88a985335048094c9\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: I finished. I finished the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227385f7e056ad461f957b76d3e7c14aac\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Next call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00222deb68dee9e347ab8d2cc143687a6f3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222deb68dee9e347ab8d2cc143687a6f3b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, here we are, at the third reading of this bill, which is quite a use of the House\u2019s time. In Budget urgency, we are discussing savings of about $400,000 that this bill enables. It\u2019s a penny-pinching bill to implement a parking fine tax, and the poor old Minister of Local Government had to shepherd it through. I mean, come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHere we go with the Minister of Local Government, who has stood on the stump and told mayors and councils around the country that he will be on their side, that he will sort out their infrastructure woes, that he will sort out Local Water Done Well, and that he will localise policy and not have central government telling them what to do. But we\u2019ve caught him out. We\u2019ve caught him with his hand in their pockets, using Budget urgency and telling them, on the day, that he will change a 10 percent charge\u2014that is genuine cost recovery of the Crown\u2014to 14 percent, but with no justification of that actually being a cost recovery. He\u2019s not out there telling mayors and councils that the actual costs have gone up and that the Crown needs to levy this for a good reason and that the rationale for this is that the Crown\u2019s cost is increasing. No\u2014no, no, no. In fact, his actual documents that he introduced alongside this bill paint this as a tax grab. So, if we\u2019re calling it a tax grab, let\u2019s call it the parking fine tax. Let\u2019s see it for what it is. This is a tax on local government that is designed to remove the funding that local ratepayers put towards their locally elected councils and put it back in the Government\u2019s coffers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis kind of legislation is poor legislation. It\u2019s poor legislation at the best of times, but this is a situation where we have not had a select committee stage, we have not had local councils consulted, and we do not understand the regulatory impact of this on local ratepayers. This is the very worst kind of legislation. It\u2019s taxation with very little cause, and it\u2019s suspiciously exactly the same amount in the forecast period as that Minister cost with a muck-up at select committee. He has cost his finance Minister $1.5 million in the forecast period, and he\u2019s gone away and penny-pinched that out of his other budgets, his Minister of Local Government budgets, which he is responsible for, and he did not take the opportunity to challenge any of that in the committee of the whole House. I put those questions to him twice, and he has not told this House that that is wrong, so we can only assume that this is a very clear message to the mayors and the councils of New Zealand that this Minister will do anything to move money around the budgets which he is responsible for. He will take from mayors, he will take from councils, he will take from local boards, and he will take from parks, from playgrounds, from libraries. He will take from the services that people rely on in their local communities to pay for a muck-up in the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EFormer mayor Andy Foster is sitting here loving this contribution, because he knows exactly what happened in that select committee. It was a muck-up that cost the Minister, suspiciously, exactly what this bill saves him. So here we are\u2014here we are\u2014using the House\u2019s time, not only using central government resources that cost probably more than $400,000, which is saved in this financial year, but not only that, we\u2019re asking every council around the country to tell their legal departments, \u201CQuickly work out whether we can comply with this. It\u2019s a very short time frame; we have to comply with it by 1\u00A0July. Please, quickly go and give me some advice.\u201D Shout-out to all those lawyers around the country who are watching this because they need their governing bodies to be able to make decisions which are required under this change. I hope you know that this is to save $400,000 for the central government. That\u2019s not $400,000 of money that we\u2019re taking from some big corporate entity and that\u2019s not $400,000 we\u2019re taking from another pot of money that we are levying to change behaviour; that is $400,000 that is coming directly from local ratepayers straight into the central government coffers. Thanks to everyone who has made an effort today to understand this bill that has cost far more than the amount it has saved. This is the worst kind of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow I can get to my actual points. I\u2019ve got five minutes left, and I intend to use them all, because the opposite members are so keen on this speech, so I will start that. The first point that I have to make is that given that there were no answers at the committee stage, I think it\u2019s still important for not only this House but for local government to understand what the real cost of the Crown administrating these fines is, because if it was a full proportion, 100 percent of the 10 percent levied by the Crown on top of these fines, then we\u2019d be in a situation in New Zealand where the taxpayer was subsidising local government to do this. We haven\u2019t had an answer to that, but that is a situation that we should properly understand, because it\u2019s not appropriate for central government to subsidise local government to levy fines in that way. It creates a perverse incentive for local governments to set fines in a way which doesn\u2019t result in the kind of policy outcomes we want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo we then need to understand that. Is the fines regime working for local government, if that has been the case for a long time? What kind of perverse incentives has it created to levy or not levy parking fines, and do we have a situation in our cities where parking fines are not being administrated in the way they should?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af20bcbfbc624b4bbd557317e6602ba3\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Invercargill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270595c718baa4a49910cfc3977189210\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, exactly\u2014exactly. My colleague the honourable\u2014not the honourable; I\u2019ve given you a promotion. My colleague Ingrid Leary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab2e1519e10c45dcaf5e120838e5fe39\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Dishonourable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c5e63da8e194c6881fffc68af2b13c6\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014who is an excellent local MP\u2014she\u2019s not dishonourable as she says\u2014gave us a really good example about how, when parking fines are levied ultra vires to the law because the law hasn\u2019t been used in the correct way, we then have a real problem that affects real consumers in their everyday lives. These regulations need to be applied accurately, and everyone needs to understand how they work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo we may need to better understand this, and I\u2019m sure members from around the House, especially those Green members who have made contributions tonight, would be interested in a select committee inquiry at the Transport and Infrastructure Committee about whether parking fines are being levied appropriately in our cities and whether they are creating the kinds of policy responses and the kinds of incentives and disincentives for people that we would want. But the Minister wasn\u2019t able to provide us with that information. We don\u2019t know. A useful conversation starter would be at the select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe next point I have is about the secondary legislation which sets these fines, because at no point in the committee stage were we able to actually engage with the values of that. Is secondary legislation the appropriate way to set parking fines? Should councils have their parking fines set in primary legislation so that ordinary people, like you and me, can have our say, because as they are currently set, it\u2019s simply a technocratic exercise of being able to set them, and, really, the reality there is that people don\u2019t review these things often. They\u2019re not something which is regularly kept up with, and so the appropriateness of parking fines is not something which is subject to the democratically elected process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EPerhaps they should be in the primary legislation. Perhaps, you know\u2014imagine that we had a local government Minister who was committed to localisation and actually was allowing councils to set their own fines. We have one very large council, Auckland Council, that is now the size of some Australian states, that would be able to set its own fines and has the internal capacity to do that. Why hasn\u2019t the Minister come to this House and suggested an amendment like that, which would actually make a difference and would actually be worth this House\u2019s time, because we would be able to set the kinds of incentives that were useful for cities to decide where parking was appropriate and where it was not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a bill\u2014and I\u2019ve said it before: it\u2019s a penny-pinching bill that sets a parking fine tax, but it was introduced in the context of a Budget which did nothing for local government. The Budget has no commitment for additional funding and financing tools for local government\u2014nothing\u2014and with only $40 million committed to the water reforms, that money sits at central government. We have a Prime Minister who comes to this House almost every week telling us that he has succeeded in delivering local water with Auckland Council, where Auckland Council set the agenda and came up with the solution themselves. Great work, but how does that commitment allow local councils to lead that work around the country when it\u2019s sitting with central government? There is nothing for local government to actually empower local decision making here. There is no commitment from the local government Minister to actually resource the work that needs to be done, and that is a missed opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere is no national resilience plan in this Budget\u2014it has been scrapped. There is no climate resilience funding\u2014that has been scrapped. Those are initiatives which resulted in local programmes which otherwise funded local councils\u2019 work. That is the kind of Budget investment we need, not $400k taken out of local councils and put straight back into the Government coffers because of an administrative error.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00220fd578dfaea54a91b51e30f10c288e27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fd578dfaea54a91b51e30f10c288e27\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk specifically to this bill, and I want to also make a public service announcement. This bill is part of a package of proposals that support the Government\u2019s Budget goal to deliver efficient, effective, and fiscally sustainable public services. The public service announcement is this\u2014one word: www.budget.govt.nz/taxcalculator. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002206145011c38247e5bd4fc4632c6b313a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206145011c38247e5bd4fc4632c6b313a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call Glen Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002277ef3ba5ff9f4ee8967b327289579b8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277ef3ba5ff9f4ee8967b327289579b8e\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That previous contribution was outrageous, and it was shameful in this House\u2014absolutely outrageous. I think it is appalling and it is shameful that this is democracy\u2014this is evidently democracy, and I find that a sham and I find it\u00A0shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EDemocracy, so we say, is a wonderful thing, but democracy is a strange thing. Democracy also is a slow burn, and as I watch and as I listen, and I hear the meerkats on the other side going on and jumping up and down, I feel like democracy is being ridden roughshod over today, because this piece of legislation, this Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs-Budget Measures) Amendment Bill, is nothing more than slamming things through in urgency which do not need to be slammed through. They need to be parked. People need to put their money in the meter, they need to wait, and they need to relax and chill out for a bit and then to wait the time to get this legislation right, to allow local government to have their say, and to allow local government to engage and be part of democracy. But, no, we\u2019ve got to run fast; we\u2019ve got to run loose\u2014that is what this Government does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAs we know, the \u201Cc\u201D word\u2014that\u2019s right, I\u2019m going to use the \u201Cc\u201D word, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m not sure if it\u2019s the Standing Orders, but I am going to use the \u201Cc\u201D word. It\u2019s all about choices. And this Government is making some serious choices which are offensive\u2014some serious choices which are rude and are disgusting. The \u201Cc\u201D word; they are making some really bad choices. And it is grotesque, and teenaged children and little kids who are watching tonight should close their ears right now, because that \u201Cc\u201D word\u2014the choices are horrific as we watch what is going on here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, we look and we watch what this Budget is about. And nature, it\u2019s been parked\u2014did they have to put their money in the meter? Did they have to wait and ensure that they clipped their ticket on the way down for the National Party? We look at our just transitions trying to move us forward. It\u2019s been parked. But, that\u2019s OK, we\u2019ll throw some money in the meter, and, of course, they\u2019ll clip the ticket, and they\u2019ll move on, and we\u2019ll ignore our just transitions. Oranga Tamariki, our most vulnerable children\u2014they\u2019re being parked, and no money can be put in the meter to justify that, because that is outrageous and that is wrong, but that is what this Government is doing with this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to funding cancer drugs, when it comes to climate change, when it comes to universal free prescriptions, they are parking it all, and they are hoping, and maybe some of them are praying and hoping\u2014I don\u2019t know what their beliefs are\u2014that, somehow, when they leave this House, maybe Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday next week, when we get through this debate, they can justify to their constituents, they can justify to the people of Aotearoa New Zealand, that the Budget that they have presented and championed and that they\u2019ve said so many wonderful things about\u2014about how they\u2019re actually going to be able to look people in the eye and say, \u201CI\u2019m sorry.\u201D, because we use the \u201Cc\u201D word in this legislation. We use the \u201Cc\u201D word in so many pieces of legislation. We made choices that are taking New Zealand backwards, choices that are offensive and are wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis legislation is only adding that extra 4 percent on top of that, obviously, in terms of the ticket that they can clip, and that is wrong. I just think, as we sit here in this place and as we look at what is going on in New Zealand, that they are looking and finding every way they can to find a bit of extra money behind the couch\u2014you know, a bit more money behind the sofa to see how they can find a way to fund their tax cuts\u2014because, of course, there\u2019s the \u201Cb\u201D word. And I\u2019m going to be outrageous: I\u2019m going to use two offensive words tonight: the \u201Cc\u201D word and the \u201Cb\u201D word. That\u2019s right. They\u2019re going to be borrowing\u2014borrowing; the \u201Cb\u201D word. They\u2019ve been borrowing for these tax cuts and doing everything they can with this legislation to ensure that they can find every little cent and every little penny they can to ensure that they can give their tax cuts to their mates and to their friends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo, as we look at this legislation, as we look at urgency, it is unnecessary. It should have gone to select committee. This legislation should have at least talked to our local democracy and our people. This is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0ab32556c8146d7aee2aca51b2a1086\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0ab32556c8146d7aee2aca51b2a1086\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Behind all of the emotion and the words and the rhetoric and the forgetfulness of the past six years and where we are now, this bill is an opportunity, a tool, to get the Government books back in balance. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00229cd3cacbf77446cf8058ec21a1b73463\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cd3cacbf77446cf8058ec21a1b73463\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E This is just really bad law, and it\u2019s really unfair. If I think of my own family, I have the blessing of being from a mixed Dutch and Pasifika family, and the reality is that members from both sides of my aiga\u2014my extended wh\u0101nau, and sometimes in our own little unit\u2014will do things like forget their registration on their car or maybe park for five minutes longer or whatever. And they get a fine, and then it becomes difficult, because in my family, most of us don\u2019t have accountants, we don\u2019t have very organised ways of doing things, and we work organically. The fine comes in, and then we hang it on the fridge, just as Dr Duncan Webb said, and then for many of my family, it comes down to, \u201CAm I going to bring something to the church service on Sunday to contribute\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a88640af927741d1bebae5893fc05a6c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Or going back to the Waiheke vineyard!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222085fde191464144acba8b9ed028a96d\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or am I going to feed the extended family who are coming around? Oh, maybe I\u2019ll just keep that on the fridge and leave it alone.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESomebody mentioned something quite sarcastic over there, and I\u2019m speaking really seriously here. The things that the Government members find funny and trivial are realities for many people. So when we look at the impact of this law, what happens in that situation? Somebody doesn\u2019t pay their fine, maybe they even stick it in the bottom drawer, they get reminder letters, it becomes overwhelming, and then the Ministry of Justice rings up and says, \u201CHow about you do a payment plan?\u201D And you say, \u201COh, yep.\u201D\u2014and everything else that you have to say to make them go away\u2014and you agree to have a direct debit out of the bank account. The direct debit comes around, and, again, the cost of living takes over, and, next minute, there\u2019s a $25 bank charge and maybe another one when it bounces and maybe another one. And these bills line up and pile up and pile up and become quite unmanageable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EAnd this is the situation that is really unfair for families that are going to be impacted, and it\u2019s come out in the costs recovery impact statement, in the report that talked about the unfair impact. Now, that is bad enough. But, then, if we look at the jurisprudence of this\u2014and the lawyers on the Government benches should know what I\u2019m talking about, about the strict-liability nature of fines\u2014and the fact that people who are in this situation in the first place, it might be a small fine, but it starts as a guilty-until-proven-innocent. So to contest, perhaps, that that little registration ticket that was supposed to be shown on the window wasn\u2019t visible, because it fell on the floor, somebody needs to be able to contest that. They have to pay the fine unless they can prove that they weren\u2019t liable. So that means, under the laws of natural justice and normal jurisprudence, we should take even more care when we are imposing additional cost or additional liability to those groups of people. But what are we doing here? We\u2019re sitting in urgency and without a select committee process\u2014and I\u2019ll come to that in a minute, because there\u2019s some really sloppy drafting in the bill that we didn\u2019t even get to in the committee stage, because the debate was closed down before we got to ask questions about some of the words in Schedule 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe Minister was sitting in the committee stage trying to say that this is good public policy and that there was an evidence base for saying that it was about cost recovery. There was no evidence base to prove that. We asked numerous questions, from this side of the House, about what the numbers were and what the baseline was and also, actually, what type of fee this was even going to be. It appears that it\u2019s a tax, when I look at it, because we know that a levy looks across a situation and requires payment across a class of expenditure. A fee is much more about a sort of vertical digging down. So this would appear to be a fee. But also what was deeply concerning was the purpose, because if it is a fee or a levy\u2014and it\u2019s being dressed up as a levy; I actually think it\u2019s a tax, but it could be a fee\u2014it has to be justified really carefully, and there has to be a good reason to do it. Now, under the legislation, it is saying in the purpose that this is about cost recovery, but in the title, it is talking about \u201CBudget Measures\u201D. What we\u2019ve heard in the contributions from the Government tonight is that this is a way of trying to fill a fiscal hole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe know that the Government had to borrow $12 billion to pay for the fiscal hole created by the $2.9 billion handout to landlords. And now they\u2019re scrambling around. But a good law would be very clear about whether the purpose is cost recovery or whether it is a tax, and what we have had is mixed messages. We asked that in the select committee\u2014no, we didn\u2019t have a select committee process, of course; in committee\u2014and we didn\u2019t get a satisfactory answer. In fact, we put amendments forward to say, \u201CLet\u2019s take the words \u2018Collection Costs\u2019 and just keep \u2018Budget Measures.\u2019\u201D, because this is clearly about trying to fill the Budget hole that\u2019s been left. Who\u2019s it impacting? It\u2019s impacting people who are the least likely to be able to afford it. And I think that\u2019s really unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the bad drafting\u2014and there\u2019s lots of things around the drafting, including the date. I mean, July coming up\u2014that is extremely fast and doesn\u2019t allow for the systems to be able to cope correctly. And I\u2019ll come to that in a minute with the Invercargill example that I\u2019ve mentioned. But if I look at the Schedule, in new Part 4, clause 11(3), in this clause it talks about \u201Camount of a fine includes\u201D, and then it\u2019s got the words \u201Cwithout limitation, an instalment\u2014(a) of the fine; and (b) paid under a court order\u201D, and so on. Now, what really concerns me is bandying around the legal words \u201Cwithout limitation\u201D. If we had a select committee process for this, that would have been tested. We would have tried to understand. If it is a fine without limitation, a strict liability offence where the mens rea is already assumed unless somebody can prove that it\u2019s not, what do we mean by \u201Cwithout limitation\u201D? I don\u2019t even get to ask that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat do those words mean? They could mean anything. Is that going to be something about interest, is it going to be some other thing that is added on to the final\u2014I\u2019m not sure, and perhaps it\u2019s just irrelevant. I suspect the answer, if we had got to this in the committee stage, would have been to cross those words out. But that is sloppy drafting, and the members opposite know that, in this House, it is about precision of language. That is what creates fairness and that is what avoids unintended consequences. And so it\u2019s really disappointing to see that kind of drafting. And it\u2019s no surprise, given that we\u2019re doing this in urgency and that we\u2019re doing it without a select committee, where we would have had people like the Law Commission, where we would have had interested groups and others say, \u201CActually, Minister, or, actually, select committee, what do those words mean? Do we need to strike them out, or do we need to define them further?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI turn finally to the example of Invercargill. And I did mention this in the committee stage, because the Government treated the questions that we asked with a lot of disdain and acted as if this was some kind of ridiculous situation in which we were posing hypotheticals. Just last week in the newspaper, the Invercargill council have done the right thing, actually. They have decided to repay $500,000 worth of parking fines to local people. I commend them for doing that. It was a difficult decision, and the reason is because they had made a mistake under the administration. And we know with strict-liability offences that the legal requirement is for the law and the evidence burden to be very strictly applied, given that the burden of proof has changed from a presumption of innocence to a presumption of guilt unless innocence has been proven. So I do commend them for doing it. But what really concerns me is that the Invercargill City Council is also trying to consider whether to pay $90,000 to subsidise public transport for the kids who won\u2019t get that now that the subsidy\u2019s gone. And they need to catch buses to go from the south of the city to the north of the city to play their sports games. And that is something that is around social inclusion. It\u2019s keeping kids out of trouble and keeping them active.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EYou may ask, \u201CWhat has this got to do with the bill?\u201D Well, everything. This is a direct result of administration and carelessness where it had profound results that had a fiscal cost which meant that, now, our most underprivileged and our most needing people who really want to get out there, play sport, and participate cannot do so, because of the type of administrative shonkiness that this bill presents. It\u2019s lawmaking that\u2019s done from the Wild West. It\u2019s done far too fast. It\u2019s done for the wrong reasons\u2014it\u2019s done for the intention of filling a tax hole rather than a genuine cost recovery reason. We know that because we haven\u2019t seen the evidence base. And it breaks my heart, because I know, from the communities that I live with, that the people who will bear the cost of this, because it will be passed on from councils, will be people like my aiga and my Dutch extended family, who just can\u2019t afford to pay the fines and get hit time and time again. It\u2019s bad lawmaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u00225679b55a084e4c4ba26a575e5aa0862c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225679b55a084e4c4ba26a575e5aa0862c\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Look, I\u2019d just like to respond to a couple of thoughts that were thrown around throughout this whole debate. The words \u201Csneaky little bill\u201D\u2014this bill was referred to as a \u201Csneaky little bill\u201D. Well, what about the sneaky fuel tax and the sneaky ute tax that were thrust upon our people in the last six years? And the \u201Cbroken promises\u201D they spoke about\u2014well, what about the promise to extend free breast cancer screening for people up to the age of 74 years old? Broken promises, 2017, 2020\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98fcc788e3f48cf8a71cc63523a2a81\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. This is the third reading of the bill and I\u2019d just like to point to the fact in the third reading, the member must speak to this particular bill, rather than referring to other bills. So I just hope you can make a ruling on that, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022841704ef4c5544409215c8d0acc40c46\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I just wondered when we got our fourth Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273674ee49a7141d49c2d5f549eea99e0\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE\u003C/span\u003E: This bill was being referred to as a broken promise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f849c28561344e4fb81c31f0d01a4de3\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, sir. Speaking to this point of order raised by the Hon Andrew Bayly. Mr Speaker, I hope you will make a determination on it. I\u2019m having some difficulty understanding what the member was asking, so if he could indulge the House and re-ask his question, perhaps we could then get you to rule on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8a19f5856f04ec488a85959ab1e26d3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Could you repeat that, Mr Bayly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce583352b6a84ab8b9a355ab81abb5db\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just asking when was the fourth Speaker appointed to assist you in your Chair role? I didn\u2019t think a fourth Speaker had been appointed to a new role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022391eac408a0147d3a92c74ecf26da8d7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you for thinking about my benefit. Just so I must make a ruling on that, if the member can confine her comments to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e56e7483564675a95498d6a3f5760e\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE\u003C/span\u003E: To the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229040e6e404934ae2aa40462d29d67fb5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand you all want to stay here tonight, but let\u2019s get a move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f395dfe1dcd48ab841cf60d544223dc\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is a great bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002207d9de088e264ccbabe23b9182245cc1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001300\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6371d9d086d49d8b039b861964b9cbf\u0022\u003EWaste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c12990e2db234bb7a2867c92b60f0fbc\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8e5da7d08c64a81a85a5d196eb83226\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8e5da7d08c64a81a85a5d196eb83226\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0cb388ba2e5402986a4673f7e6c3c35\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on Parliament\u2019s website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c41360cb5447489e96d868273fe4e481\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EOne of the Government\u2019s priorities is to improve and protect the environment from harm, particularly focusing on the most harmful waste. The Government also wants to prevent the impact of, and support recovery from, extreme weather events. The Government wants to do this while achieving financial stability and sustainability across the public sector. This bill is a step towards this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe Government is changing the Waste Minimisation Act 2008 to allow the waste disposal levy to be spent on a wider range of activities, and to increase the levy incrementally over three years from July\u00A02025. Broadening the scope of the waste levy will help fund a more comprehensive set of Government waste and environmental priorities. These changes mean that as well as waste minimisation activities, the levy can also support projects to improve freshwater quality, remediate contaminated sites, and restore the health of important New Zealand ecosystems. We will be able to fund waste reduction, ways to reduce harm from waste, resource recovery, and reducing organic and construction and demolition wastes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, I wonder if you would indulge me moving away a little from the bill at the moment, because I feel, as the MP from Invercargill, I can\u2019t stand here talking about demolition waste without noting that this week in Invercargill, as the pyramid museum was being demolished\u2014the museum held a tuatara enclosure. That enclosure was closed, and the tuatara were taken out of there in February\u00A02023. But this week, as the demolition was occurring, four live baby tuataras were found in the enclosure. So what resilient little critters they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EHowever, thank you for indulging me in that and I will return to the bill. The bill will mean that the levy funds can support local authorities with the costs of managing waste from emergencies. This includes supporting councils to repair or replace waste infrastructure damaged during emergencies. The levy will also fund the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s waste and hazardous substance responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThis adjustment will achieve cost savings while contributing to improving and protecting the environment from harm. This is a pragmatic solution to the current fiscal situation to ensure that the ministry\u2019s important work programme and environmental funding initiatives can continue. As well as broadening the scope of the levy, the levy will continue to increase incrementally over the next three years from July\u00A02025. For municipal landfills, it will rise in $5 increments from $60 per tonne at 1\u00A0July\u00A02024, to reach $75 per tonne on 1\u00A0July\u00A02027. For construction and demolition landfills, it will rise in $5 increments from $30 per tonne at 1\u00A0July\u00A02024, to $45 per tonne on 1\u00A0July\u00A02027. For managed or controlled landfills, it will rise from $10 per tonne at 1\u00A0July\u00A02024, to $15 per tonne from 1\u00A0July\u00A02025, followed by a further increase to $20 per tonne on 1\u00A0July\u00A02027. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThese levy increases will provide further incentives to reduce waste going to landfill, as well as providing additional revenue towards Government waste and environmental priorities. This means central and local government can make a bigger impact on reducing waste and improving the environment. It means there\u2019s a stronger financial incentive for people and organisations to seek alternatives to landfill, like reusing, recycling, and composting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe Government will focus on investing the levy in the most effective way and to fill gaps in New Zealand\u2019s waste infrastructure without crowding out the private sector. I will be particularly focused on measures to decrease construction and demolition waste so the levy changes support the building sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EImportantly, the local government proportion of the levy will remain at 50 percent even with the increased revenue. Local government will continue to fund waste minimisation in line with their waste management and minimisation plans. This means councils can continue to invest in local solutions to reduce waste, like education, kerbside collections, food waste redistribution schemes, and supporting local business to reduce their waste. These changes will also support councils and communities to deal with the legacy of contaminated sites, including historic landfills and other sites that are vulnerable to the effects of severe weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe changes will enable levy funds to support the remediation of these sites. The changes will mean that the Contaminated Sites Remediation Fund appropriation is replaced with levy funds. I also intend to substantially increase the amount of funding available for these remediation projects. It is estimated that there are hundreds of historic landfills and other contaminated sites vulnerable to the effects of severe weather, so we need to tackle this proactively wherever possible. I know councils have been asking for more support. No one wants to see another Fox River landfill event, where a 2019 severe storm spread waste along 21 kilometres of riverbed and 51 kilometres of coastline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe changes mean we can fix these sites before they cause a problem, and support communities after severe weather events. The bill will also enable the Secretary for the Environment to approve the levy waiver for waste disposal from the remediation of contaminated sites and historic landfills, meaning we will be able to further support local government and communities to get these sites cleaned up. The frequency and magnitude of emergency events is increasing, partly due to the rise in severe weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ETo date, the cost of managing waste caused by these events has been dealt with on an ad hoc basis. No standing funds were available to respond to community and council needs to deal with emergency waste. The changes will enable the Government to help fund the management of emergency waste, including repairing or replacing waste infrastructure damaged during emergencies. This will reduce the financial burden of these events on both central and local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe bill will enable levy funds to be used to support activities and responsibilities that address waste reduction, reduced harm from waste, and support other environmental outcomes. The bill will allow the waste disposal levy to be spent on a wider range of activities and to increase the levy incrementally over three years from 2025. The levy will also fund the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s waste and hazardous substances responsibilities, allowing this important work to continue. This will contribute towards meeting the Government\u2019s priorities while achieving fiscal savings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe bill will enable an increase in the funds available for contaminated site remediation, which will benefit many communities. It will also enable the Government to help fund the management of emergency waste, including repairing or replacing waste infrastructure damaged during emergencies. In addition, territorial authorities will receive an increase in revenue from their levy allocation over the three-year period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House. The bill will be progressed under urgency through the House. The progression under urgency, if the House agrees, will allow the fiscal savings to be realised for the 2024-25 financial year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00222704a7acb7eb4555a1a9119a2ca2e1ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222704a7acb7eb4555a1a9119a2ca2e1ee\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00221ba4bc3a2d204b538adc4f14fca907a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ba4bc3a2d204b538adc4f14fca907a1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, it\u2019s interesting to be here at just on 11\u00A0o\u2019clock on a Friday night, talking about the waste levy, but luckily for me, the waste levy is something that I\u2019m very happy to be talking about at any time of the day or week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, the waste levy is something that was increased around 2020 and in a hypothecated fund, the idea being that money gained from waste being disposed of would go to initiatives to decrease waste. That\u2019s how hypothecated schemes work. As the Minister, the Hon Penny Simmonds, has said, this levy was split in half; half of it goes to the local council where the waste is taken and half goes to central government. Under the Waste Minimisation Act, different councils have to have waste minimisation plans, and we all know that our local council, our city council, our district council, or our unitary council\u2014depending where you live around the country\u2014does a lot with waste. So it makes good sense that half of that money goes to those local governments. The other half stays with the Government, and the Government has funds\u2014the Waste Minimisation Fund and the Plastics Innovation Fund\u2014that then are contestable and can go to projects around the country. We heard the Minister say about the importance of waste infrastructure around the country, and I\u2019m sure she\u2019ll talk some more about that sort of waste infrastructure, but some of it is for the often quite complicated kit that is used for recycling, or it might be for large-scale composting and a range of issues. So the waste levy is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe criteria are very tight at the moment in the legislation, and Labour\u2019s position is not in opposition to the loosening of the criteria in part. However, this bill goes far too far in the widening of those criteria, and I\u2019ll talk more about that in both the second reading speech and, of course, in the committee stage, as we\u2019re under urgency and this isn\u2019t going before a select committee. The question is: why does it go too far? I\u2019ll talk more about this as well. The supplementary analysis doesn\u2019t talk about how far this bill goes. The idea that the criteria should be extended to remediation of contaminated sites\u2014so the landfill issue that the Minister referred to at Fox River\u2014no problem with that. The idea that when there are emergency situations such as we had in the Hawke\u2019s Bay and other areas of the North Island last year\u2014no problem with that extension. The problem is that the bill says any other environmental thing whatever, and there\u2019s no nexus to waste. And this is a levy, it\u2019s not a tax, so there does have to be some nexus, and it\u2019s the absence of that nexus that we are opposed to. I have Amendment Papers on the Table that will fix that problem, will still allow the extension to remediation and emergency, but not go to just anything that\u2019s not related to waste at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo why do we have a bill in front of us that seems to change the process to now extend to wider environmental issues? The reason is, of course, that this Budget is terrible for the environment. Everything is cut. We knew, of course, that there were those cuts in the mini-Budget to environmental programmes and to the Ministry for the Environment, and now we have that 7.5 percent cut. We know, of course\u2014and we\u2019ve had this throughout the past six months\u2014that every single climate mitigation initiative has been cut, and we\u2019ve got rid of, of course, with this Budget, the climate emergency fund. We know that the Department of Conservation is being cut. That\u2019s all on-the-ground conservation work. We know that the Climate Commission has been cut. Programmes for installation have been cut. Half-price public transport\u2014cut. So all of these reasons, all of these cuts\u2014we do need to do some things for the environment. What we see here, and what we see with this bill, with this widening of the criteria, is that it\u2019s for the waste levy to pay for all of these things. And, of course, it doesn\u2019t pay for all of those cuts\u2014not at all\u2014and it is needed to continue with what the Minister spoke about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe do need funding for the remediation of landfills. We do need funding for the increase of waste infrastructure. But this bill goes too far, so we will be opposing it. We do have Amendment Papers for the Minister. If she is of a mind to change her mind, then that position can change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u00222f8fbb40b21d4e6ca9da6b0c3b780f5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f8fbb40b21d4e6ca9da6b0c3b780f5e\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, I am pretty excited to be speaking about waste minimisation. It is one of my favourite topics and I have dedicated my career to waste minimisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82cec2e2f15491999525eee6abdffac\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Same! We\u2019re going to get on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022708eb37d18204098aef2e66251193978\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Amazing\u2014let\u2019s do this. Let\u2019s do it for our future generations and because environmental action is cool. That\u2019s right\u2014it\u2019s cool. And I know you all want to be cool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill actually do? Well, I was brought up with the mantra \u201Cwaste not, want not\u201D, and I\u2019ve taken that with me into my life. That is why I have been dedicated to waste minimisation since before it was cool\u2014just like my learned colleagues here in the Green Party, and our members. So what is this bill actually doing? Well, like everyone here, I think that raising waste levies is an excellent idea. It is an excellent idea because what it means is that when industries have to pay more to send their rubbish to landfill than they do to reduce rubbish, then we\u2019re going to be reducing that waste. It\u2019s a great thing. Unfortunately, $5 a year won\u2019t even keep up with inflation, and if we look at similar countries to ours\u2014so in New South Wales, $160 per tonne\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225447051d6c18481f80f87a2ae53ed93f\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a state, not a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f689374369c54918aa43b9b7147532a3\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: A state, thank you. In Victoria, $130 for a tonne, but in New Zealand: only $60\u2014less than half than countries who are similar to us. So you really need to look at why that is, and we need to actually understand that we don\u2019t need a bill to increase the waste levy; we actually don\u2019t. We can just do that through our normal regulation process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWhen I look at this bill and really dig into it, it\u2019s like: what is this bill really doing? And my colleague here, on the right, actually got the nail on the head. What is happening is that the Government knows that New Zealanders care about climate action and they care about waste minimisation. That is why, in 2018, the Colmar Brunton poll showed that the thing that New Zealanders most cared about was that they were worried about the build-up in plastic in our environment. They care about the 1.76 billion plastic containers and bottles every year that we use here in New Zealand. And I see those hard-working Kiwis out there taking waste minimisation action, taking climate action. They\u2019re using reusable nappies instead of disposable diapers. They\u2019re doing composting. We\u2019ve got teenagers who care about mindful fashion and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c77e6800fcf4467856d3c61e7ae7cf3\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Wearing wool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022955aa4900f88458a9fe5febc43412cc1\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Wearing wool, absolutely\u2014that we can compost and we can take it and put it into our compost. What this bill is doing is it is taking money away from waste minimisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe have a $2.3 billion infrastructure deficit in waste minimisation. Where is that going to come from when you\u2019re slashing and burning environmental protections, when you\u2019re slashing and burning climate action? We need to put out that fire that you are creating by taking money from the waste minimisation levy. Let me say that again: we are $2.3 billion in deficit in infrastructure for waste minimisation. It is so important that we are keeping that waste levy in waste minimisation. Cutting $10 million from the Ministry for the Environment\u2014with my former colleagues who work so hard on innovation and vision for this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe need to take responsibility for our waste, and clean up after ourselves, because our children, and their children in every generation after, deserve an ambitious Government\u2014one who cares about Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, one who cares about a livable planet for their mokos. We must look at waste as an opportunity to live in harmony with nature, because our children deserve it. When we continue down this exploitive, extractive system which we have right now, which is a straight line from extracting precious metals and finite resources from the environment and sending them on a straight line all the way to the dump, where our future generations are going to be mining those finite resources\u2014we have to do better for our children, we can do better for our children, and I believe we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00225642910c17104da69e7f8f58a6b6fd4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225642910c17104da69e7f8f58a6b6fd4c\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The ACT Party\u2019s proud to support this bill, the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI just want to give a bit of background and context for why I personally share the kaupapa of this bill. For six years, I worked on a solid-waste landfill. I qualified as an operator. Wheels, tracks, and rollers on a big beast like this. [Holds up picture] It was crushing thousands of tonnes of waste a day. I worked at a landfill out of a Portacom for six years, watching thousands and thousands of trucks a year bringing waste and dispose of it in landfills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f7de001e1da4beeae3a248d6214d31e\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Then you\u2019ve come here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b4c14f5c4e64512a5aa6ab454fba35c\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Shortly after\u2014Scott Simpson asked why would I come here. Why would I come here? Well, I\u2019ve got to say, sometimes you can\u2019t engineer a way out of a problem that the Government has caused\u2014and successive Governments are the reason why we\u2019re here today having to try to solve the problem of waste disposal that previous Governments failed to solve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI want to give you an example. In 2005, I went to a waste industry conference when a former Labour environment Minister announced there\u2019ll be zero waste to landfill by 2040.\u00A0I thought, \u201CThat person has no idea how to achieve that.\u201D In 2005, there were 2.5\u00A0million tonnes being disposed of in landfills in New Zealand; by 2018, there was around 3.5\u00A0million tonnes a year. So under a whole succession of well-intentioned but, unfortunately, people who had no idea how to actually deliver on good policy and outcomes, here we are today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019m proud to support this bill\u2014and I think it\u2019s the right thing to do now\u2014is because the original purpose of the original Waste Minimisation Act was to decrease waste\u00A0disposal. I mean, that\u2019s laudable, right? To \u201Cprotect the environment from harm;\u201D\u2014well, of course, every day we get up in New Zealand, most people want to protect the environment from harm\u2014\u201Cto provide environmental, social, economic, and cultural benefits.\u201D Well, how on earth do you put all those things together on one plan so you actually know what to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill changes the purpose statement to actually promote and achieve waste minimisation. There will be tests, there will be cost-benefit analysis for the investments made with funds recovered from levying waste at the landfill gate and then applied to waste infrastructure and waste minimisation. Achievement will be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4bbfa0beb03420693d0c3f579bde6a6\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: But also other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022333dba5a366c4b0c82405fef8561f351\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014a test, Mr Abel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223129574829fd4132baabd89f1bb8afa6\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: But it\u2019s going to pay for decontamination of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4182b7fda02468c8fdcb179c7aa454f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll get to that\u2014we\u2019ll get to that, Mr Abel. This is not lip-service, what we\u2019re doing here. These are not slogans; these are not good intentions. The changes to this bill achieve waste minimisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, local government has the responsibility to minimise waste; manage waste. What we saw after Cyclone Gabrielle were some real challenges in separating out the silt, the twisted piles of fencing, the plastic debris, the geotextile cloth. This bill will allow funds recovered from the waste levy levied at landfill gates to be used to fund waste infrastructure, following cyclone disaster recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EOne of the other good things this levy will be able to fund in future is more contaminated site and landfill remediation. One of the other tasks that I\u2019ve carried out as a civil engineer is designing and carrying out remediation on some of New Zealand\u2019s most hazardous sites and landfills. Some of those sites that are falling into the sea, where the rock protection, the sea walls aren\u2019t sufficient, and where it would be fair to say that as a legacy of the past which remains unfunded by local government and by central government, there has not been one place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7de8fceb82d478c8699a09c614564d3\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. This Budget has no climate adaptation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265fe284cba214a2fb700b761709c1026\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that\u2019s right, that\u2019s right. There has not been one place that local government and its partners in the private sector who actually have the machines that actually do the work can go to get funds to remediate landfills and deliver waste infrastructure to minimise waste to landfill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo there is a role for a waste levy. Now, it would be fair to say that ACT is not a party that supports increasing charges and taxes and levies on the productive sector. But there is a role for a waste levy as long as it is applied to the right projects and the right programmes that achieve environmental outcomes and that meet a strict cost-benefit test. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat is why the ACT Party supports this bill and commend it to the House. The Minister for the Environment, Penny Simmonds, has done a great job and we look forward to getting a little bit more out and aerate a few more issues as we get into the committee of the whole House stage. Looking forward to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6a7eb1aebd44b7390c9b604c3eae5e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6a7eb1aebd44b7390c9b604c3eae5e3\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s great to see such enthusiasm right across the House for waste minimisation, for looking after our waste properly and minimising waste. I\u2019m passionate about recycling, passionate about waste minimisation myself. Look, I just want to talk about this, the waste levy. The waste levy has been around for about 15\u00A0years\u2014it\u2019s hypothecated to waste\u2014and what we\u2019ve seen is it\u2019s been steadily increasing over a period of time so that there is a stronger and stronger incentive to minimise waste, and the charge is also gone not only for class 1 landfills but now also across class 2, 3, and 4 landfills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhat this bill is all about is flexibility, because I\u2019ve seen quite a number\u2014in local government\u2014of proposals which have got funding. Some of them are absolutely brilliant, but some of them are not. I think there is the danger, sometimes, of having this free money sitting there that has got to be spent somewhere, and sometimes it\u2019s not actually particularly brilliantly spent. And I can see some mystification on the other side there, but I can point to you, Mr Abel\u2014some of the projects which have been funded, you look at that and go, \u201CThat is not a good spend of money.\u201D As a country, we need to make sure that the money we spend anywhere is really well spent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELook, this bill does two things. One, it continues to increase the amount of cost that is imposed on people who are creating waste and disposing of waste\u2014that is a good thing; it keeps that incentive becoming greater and greater to minimise waste. But the second thing it does, which is really important, is it gives more flexibility around how that waste levy is used: it\u2019s about allowing us to do more clean-ups of contaminated sites; it\u2019s about allowing us to respond to emergencies, and we heard the example of the Franz Josef one; and also about wider environmental programmes. So it\u2019s useful flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think it does two other things. One, is it means that some costs which are currently paid by the Crown will then come from this levy, so it\u2019s saving money. Secondly, it means that there is going to be greater competition for that waste levy, and that means, I think, that we will end up with higher-quality spending because some of the lower-quality things will drop off there. So I think this is a very sensible approach, and I\u00A0commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbff6dac82a04d40890a3c804d75907b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbff6dac82a04d40890a3c804d75907b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to follow those two previous speakers. I was looking forward to hearing Mr Foster\u2019s contribution, someone who has been involved in local government for many years prior to coming to this place, so for him to make a two-minute-and-30-second contribution\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220269c506b42740cdb0ddd543f8360a3d\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: It was two minutes longer than they wanted me to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d75018dd3b5b461d9627912d05335232\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in the context\u2014yes, Mr Foster; I\u2019m pretty sure it was two minutes longer than they may have suggested to you. But, look, don\u2019t be confined to the party whips over there. If you\u2019ve got something to say, then I suggest that, given we\u2019re in urgency, you say it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c86024140f9c4f9d9e129031fa10dd23\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Wasted almost a minute on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a81e81b4a3e48509f26d139301ab3b4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: It was also very\u2014what\u2019s that, Mr Mooney?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267dac9fd7d574ef7b88f09a03ffc91e5\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Wasted almost a minute so far talking about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022728f00ca108d49018d8358a614497854\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, we\u2019re here because we want to be here. The other thing is I want to just follow up on the issues that were raised by Mr Court. Now, Mr\u00A0Court and I spent some time on the Environment Committee last term. It\u2019s fair to say that we\u2019ve\u00A0had our disagreements on policy from time to time, but, again, I commend him on taking a full call, which seems to be a rarity for Government members in this current phase of urgency. Actually, I have to say that he did get me thinking about some of the things that he was mentioning, particularly around funding, but he hasn\u2019t tended to sway me\u2014something that seems to be a common feature between the relationship that he and I might have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut it is interesting that we are talking about waste at 11.20 on a Friday night and that there is a particular focus around where this split might be. Prior to coming to this House, like Mr Foster, I spent a decade in local government, so I know the importance that this particular levy does actually place on decision-making processes and opportunities for local councils all around the world\u2014all around the country and all around the world, actually, when it comes to global waste. But what\u2019s really interesting is that as the House is progressing this through urgency at this late hour of the evening, there actually won\u2019t be an opportunity for councils in my region or in other regions to actually have their say on this, because the Parliament is going to, with the Government\u2019s support, basically ram this through under urgency. I think that\u2019s a shame, because already in some of the smaller contributions that we\u2019ve had this evening, we\u2019ve heard of some of the very creative initiatives that councils all around Aotearoa New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269022f53a2784aa98f66707c289a0c1d\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Two and a half minutes; still nothing on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e0be0da34bc48d2bf2b7c7f90cec6ea\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014are embarking\u2014well, Mr Mooney, it might be two and a half minutes. It would be longer than any contribution you\u2019ll give under urgency, I\u2019d suggest. But I do think that the 50:50 split with local government is really important. But hearing what Palmerston North City Council might have to say on these measures would have been quite helpful. Hearing what the Tararua District Council would want to have to say about this would be quite helpful. Hearing what Manawat\u016B District Council would want to say would be quite helpful. And I\u2019m sure the member for Rangit\u012Bkei would also agree that those councils have an opportunity to say and feed into this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking makes a very good point in her contribution, and that is that there is a real distinction between a levy and a tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f78881f73205448786b453c0e894fd7f\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: Repetition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cff4ada02e2f413e920c33604914f3bc\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: A tax\u2014well, it\u2019s not repetition, because I\u2019m going to go on to the distinction. The Hon Rachel Brooking touched on the need for a nexus, and I think that\u2019s really important, because where a tax might be effectively garnered which can be spent on pretty much anything, a levy is much more specific. This is the context within which this bill comes to this House. It\u2019s around a waste minimisation levy, and so there needs to be a particular distinction between\u2014even though it is hypothecated\u2014where the levy is drawn from and where the levy will then be spent or where it will go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s unfortunate, again, that local communities, as we work through this process, will not actually have an opportunity to share whether they think the 50:50 split is right, whether they think the widening of this criteria that the Minister for the Environment is actually suggesting is wide enough or too wide. Here on this side of the House, we think that the widening exercise is far too broad and needs to be curtailed. And so, as the House progresses to consider some of those amendments that my colleagues on this side of the House will have in their name, I do hope that the Government, albeit in urgency, will be open to the suggestions in light of the fact that communities have not had an opportunity to have their say. My invitation to the Government is, as we move through the various stages this evening and, indeed, tomorrow, and perhaps beyond, that they do turn their mind to be open to the fact that communities have not had an opportunity to participate in this process and that there is a question of fairness. On that basis, at this stage, without any changes, we\u2019re not supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00220a81a82a0d8c4e5fbb5329507503aebd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a81a82a0d8c4e5fbb5329507503aebd\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I listened carefully to the contribution of the Minister, who I thought put forward a very cogent argument for a prudent, practical approach to the waste minimisation levy and how it could be more flexibly spent in a way that advances the National Party\u2019s blue-green principles that we\u2019ve held dear for nearly 30 years. So, on that basis, I can support this bill wholeheartedly and I do so with enthusiasm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022616cf1e1a0e743209e174de473032b39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022616cf1e1a0e743209e174de473032b39\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. I know it probably is difficult at this time of the hour, and it is, of course\u2014it\u2019s not easy listening to some of the contributions coming from the other side of the House, but I feel like we\u2019re sitting on 30\u00A0May\u00A02024 and it\u2019s a long, long day. It feels like 30\u00A0May is going to go down in the history of New Zealand politics as a dumping ground\u2014as a dumping ground of waste, of toxic legislation that is causing an impact on our country that we haven\u2019t seen before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWhen I say it\u2019s a dumping ground, it feels like it\u2019s a dumping ground for legislation that they want to ram through and they want to dump in here, whether it\u2019s the Taxation (Budget Measures) Bill, dumped here into urgency on 30 May; whether it\u2019s the Public Finance (Fines Collection Costs\u2014Budget Measures) Amendment Bill dumped here; whether it\u2019s this legislation, the waste minimisation legislation, it\u2019s been dumped; or the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill, dumped here on 30\u00A0May; the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill dumped here. Just like this legislation here around waste minimisation, it feels like a dumping ground where they can just cover over; where they can just come in and they can just run things loose, quick, and fast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, this legislation, as the Hon Rachel Brooking, an exceptional member of Parliament, spoke about, is something that we support in principle, but\u2014and there is a \u201Cbut\u201D\u2014it seems to widen the criteria. It widens to a place that goes too far. It widens it to a place where it\u2019s not actually about waste minimisation; it\u2019s around clawing money from here, from the environmental space, which they cut during this week\u2019s Budget, to put over here in terms of waste minimisation. When we look at this legislation and we look at the\u00A0way it expands how and where the levy can be spent, I realise that it\u2019s something that\u00A0actually runs roughshod over what the legislation, what the purpose of it, was about.\u00A0When we look at why they\u2019re doing it, it\u2019s because they need the money. It\u2019s because they need to find the finance, because the finance Minister took away from the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c7c613d69b94c50be95c71ae3754038\u0022\u003EReuben Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Robbed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297a17385ce1c4d4e9941045b2dafff7a\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: She robbed the environment. When we look at what happened in this week\u2019s Budget, we look at cuts\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b59bd9b27602455fbf52172ae3aa7214\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: Stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5e6e79ac3a14b9492381a5dc3efe9a4\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to supposed back-office expenses\u2014and this is all about the bill, and I\u2019m sticking closely to the bill\u2014because they are having to make cuts, and so, therefore, they\u2019re looking for ways to recuperate a pittance, a small amount. So whether it\u2019s the $22.3 million cuts to the Ministry for the Environment, whether it\u2019s the cuts to waste minimisation\u2014$52.97 million cut to waste minimisation. That\u2019s why they have to take this legislation, they have to dump it here on 30\u00A0May\u00A02024, because they need to find money and they need to find it fast, because\u2014because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022821c41939ab444a997a3c1c8b88f772c\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re waiting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022376cde59a1a2460a94fbcff63edfe57e\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, please wait, because it\u2019s important, and sometimes pregnant pauses are moments to reflect and think about our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f275c6918d8b4b27b5ff7cd009b65781\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Get back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273684dd70e88498ea2eff0cf3283d2df\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Andrew Bayly talks about getting back on track. Well, to me, it\u2019s going backwards and it\u2019s tracking into the ditch and the dump of wrecking our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis was a good Act. This was something that was working hard with local government, working hard with Government, to ensure that waste minimisation was realised, that that 2040 ambition that the honourable Simon Court talked about is something that actually could be reached. But this is robbing Peter to pay Paul, and, of course, who suffers the most? It\u2019s the New Zealand environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u002206da0004dc4c4751ad02a44c3b1a5200\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206da0004dc4c4751ad02a44c3b1a5200\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E This is a great bill that aligns with our aspirations to get great environmental outcomes. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00225223f5905604462f8a7c79428381b5d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225223f5905604462f8a7c79428381b5d1\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was just saying talofa\u2014it\u2019s still Samoan Language Week. You\u2019ve heard our colleagues on this side who have provided a range of views with regards to the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. We won\u2019t be supporting this bill, because, whilst we agree on some principles, it does broaden the criteria too far. I was quite lucky, just with my colleague Tangi Utikere, who also spent some time\u2014over a decade\u2014in local government. We worked really hard on the ground at that time to look with our communities at these matters of waste minimisation. In my local area, for those who are not aware, M\u0101ngere is one of the communities where we have a number of young people in our community who were very concerned at recent weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI have read right through the supplementary analysis report which provides the context of which the Cabinet and the Government have made a number of decisions. One of my concerns\u2014and it is outlined here\u2014is that I\u2019ve read on page\u00A03 that the analysis and the modelling of this paper that has been presented of this legislation was done at pace, that communities have not been consulted, and what it tells me is that the modelling and the impacts have been quite rushed. So I\u2019m very, very happy that we get the opportunity to speak right through this process, and question at the committee stage. But this bill really affects our lower socio-economic communities, and there are some really good initiatives that the previous Government supported, not just with the operational side but education. Why do many Kiwis or New Zealanders not utilise this programme under the waste minimisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ve heard the Hon Rachel Brooking in that we do agree on some of the principles but the broadening of the criteria, it just goes way too far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb3789bf1ab94d32808e21b9df5f0a5c\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Too far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a6aee38bb64a3381edf84887c2d8c6\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE\u003C/span\u003E: Too far. One of the things for this community in my local community is that our young rangatahi, they want to be involved in waste minimisation programmes. Well, the cuts have been too severe, that we\u2019ve heard yesterday. And programmes like Jobs for Nature, which were working really well in our local rohe in terms of young rangitahi that were not entering the workforce, those young people were entering programmes that were offered by the waste minimisation levy. So it is of real concern that when you are broadening criteria, what the Government is proposing for this waste disposal levy, that just goes too far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo we bring it back to the context of when you are consulting with communities\u2014those who are responsible for the supplementary analysis report\u2014there is a critical voice that you don\u2019t hear from, and it\u2019s important that communities across Aotearoa, when the cutting of some of these programmes has happened, and they\u2019ve happened at pace, how do you know that the problem definition has been identified? How do you know that the solutions that have been put forward under this current bill are the right choices that have been made by this Government? The whole waste minimisation programme is really, really important, because as we\u2019ve seen, climate change is really affecting our communities across Aotearoa, and some communities are well-resourced and others are not. Education, under this programme, is really, really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EJust as I complete my contribution this evening, what I want to stress is that there has to be a focus on what suits communities, and the only way you\u2019re going to know for these types of programmes is that you have to speak to the community, whatever they look like. In local government, they need to be supported with the autonomy that as we speak to our young people right across Aotearoa, that their voices are involved in some of the opportunities in these programmes they offer, because they are the ones that will be standing here in 20 years\u2019 time, making different decisions because today\u2019s Government did not take that opportunity. So I just wanted to point this out, and I\u2019m very pleased that I get another opportunity, and another opportunity just to raise some questions. So thank you for the opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u00221b9a78c2c0d846bfb05db47247b58594\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b9a78c2c0d846bfb05db47247b58594\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is with great pleasure that I rise to speak on the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s great to talk about waste minimisation, because this is a Budget which is cleaning up the mess of the previous Government, so it\u2019s very apt that we\u2019re talking about waste management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EOne of the previous contributions talked about the \u201Cc\u201D word, but they didn\u2019t use the \u201Cc\u201D word which is \u201Ccommon sense\u201D. I think it\u2019s only common sense that we spend some of this levy and allow the ministry to undertake its functions and duties and exercise its powers in relation to waste management and to minimisation of hazardous substances. That\u2019s just common sense, and some of the other measures that the money can be spent on, including repairing damage caused by emergency\u2014it is why I think this is a great bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226ce93b867d55408ba67acf72c167c4a9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001395\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca4742b7fad4483ca0d1f9996e5fac9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca4742b7fad4483ca0d1f9996e5fac9b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately\u2014sorry, for second reading immediately. Sorry, just helping the House; it\u2019s a long weekend. I also note that we\u2019re doing a waste minimisation bill, which might have made a good reason to move on. This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f78fdd897c2b4b4eb05ab2a935e0504b\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002230f3043f65914ffabb6dcd4a03e73450\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230f3043f65914ffabb6dcd4a03e73450\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Wishful thinking from you! I want to thank members whose contributions have shown such a passion for waste minimisation, and this bill will help fund a more comprehensive set of Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcfd1ceafde54bdd8e4b9e1e788a7e40\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. There\u2019s a line here that I think you might have overstepped at this late hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264e455a0d1e74e42aa59bb20ed3b8d35\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I move\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bfde767fb834e1284f31df5dd1e551e\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just seeking your guidance: there is a very strict interpretation in terms of process that members of the executive, specifically Ministers are required to\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab3ee2248b0e4bc881ab1eb08b1c7152\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, can we just have no conversations going on while we\u2019ve got a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4bfd87d7d524294985d7fe2ca098ad4\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, sir. Just seeking your guidance: there is a very strict interpretation and expectation for members of the executive, particularly Ministers, when they are progressing a piece of legislation through the House. Those words were not used. So I seek your guidance about what the next steps would be in light of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229653be404954a1b9428e50932d4e2b8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if you had noticed, I had actually stopped the Minister\u2019s speech and suggested that there was a line that needed to be stated at the start of that contribution. So you were following up on something that I\u2019d already seen to, as it were. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ceb673180fd40d5a7b45c677269a324\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Mr Speaker. Thank you. I move, That the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThis bill will help fund a more comprehensive set of Government waste and environmental priorities. These changes mean that, as well as waste minimisation activities, the levy revenue can also support projects to improve freshwater quality, remediate contaminated sites, and restore the health of important New Zealand ecosystems. Just a couple of examples of the types of projects that would benefit under the changes include the Kaipara Moana Remediation Programme, which supports landowners and communities to improve and restore the catchment; the Freshwater Improvement Fund, which will result in improvements to the health of waterways and catchments. Increases to the waste disposal levy will better reflect the true costs of using resources and disposing of waste, incentivise more reuse of materials, reduce greenhouse gas emissions from organic waste to landfill, and improve the onshore processing of materials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re mindful of the cost of living, and the implications for households and businesses across New Zealand. However, we expect this to be relatively minor on them. The levy rate change from $60 per tonne\u2014the levy rate that will be in effect from 1\u00A0July this year; up to $75 per tonne from 1\u00A0July\u00A02027 for class 1 municipal landfills\u2014will equate to an average increase in levy costs of around $5.07 per annum per household.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ECentral government will be able to provide more funding for the remediation of contaminated sites vulnerable to the effects of severe weather events, including closed landfills, before they become an issue. This will improve the resilience of communities. It will also help with the recovery and clean-up where it is needed. It is estimated there are hundreds of such historic landfill sites and other contaminated sites that are vulnerable around the country. The changes will significantly increase the amount of money available to support the remediation of vulnerable landfills each year. Councils will be able to request a levy waiver for any waste from the remediation of the contaminated site, ensuring this cost does not become a barrier to the cleaning up of such sites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EGovernment funding will also assist councils with the costs of cleaning up waste and repairing or replacing damaged waste infrastructure after an emergency event. This will ease the financial burden on councils and communities at a time they most need it. The Canterbury and Kaik\u014Dura earthquakes, our recent cyclones, and the Auckland Anniversary floods, and many other large-scale events have underscored the importance of resilient waste management and minimisation facilities and services across the region. To date, costs arising from managing waste caused by emergency events have been dealt with on an ad hoc basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWaste management is a critical service to get up and running quickly to reduce public health risks and support communities to get back on their feet. With these outcomes in mind, I therefore commend the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225f88e95531174166ac11dd19feaad21f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f88e95531174166ac11dd19feaad21f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002281faf4a293504efd83b62c18b88e0e5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281faf4a293504efd83b62c18b88e0e5e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Now, of course, I\u2019m reminding people that we are in urgency. They\u2019ve just seen me not that long ago speaking on the first reading, and now here we are with the second reading. So I\u2019m going to go through in some more detail about that issue of the nexus and the criteria\u2014I think it\u2019s critical that we are all understanding exactly what\u2019s happening here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, I want to respond to Dr Hamish Campbell\u2019s comment, something about the previous Government making a mess. Now, I would contend, and I do contend very strongly, that the previous Government was doing excellent work in waste\u2014though I would say that, I acknowledge. But there was a lot of work on the responsibility for reducing the waste Act to come, so that was really to have a whole lot of new tools to regulate in this space, particularly around product stewardship, to have some new tools, some more waste-tracking national standards and national licensing, and to help with moving and transitioning to a circular economy. Now, I am very hopeful that the Minister for the Environment will progress with that legislation because it was very useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn the lead-up to the different papers involved in the development of that responsibility for reducing waste, there was a lot of consultation about the waste levy, and waste issues in general. It was already raised to the attention of the Ministry for the Environment officials, of course, that the waste minimisation levy was too constrained in what it could be spent on. So that is why we\u2019re agreeing that, yes, it should be extended out to some other issues that are related to waste, like old landfills. But it should not go to be the primary fund almost, or a total fund for anything that has to do with the environment that should be funded elsewhere\u2014in the Budget, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo this is, of course, an amendment Act to the Waste Minimisation Act, and that has these narrow criteria that Simon Court talked about earlier\u2014that it\u2019s got to be related to waste. So there\u2019s an amendment here to the purpose, to \u201Craise revenue to fund \u2026 (iii) activities that reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits;\u201D. That is the width that we\u2019re talking about, that is the expansion, and that is the phrase causing concern. There are other additions, including the promotion and achievement of waste minimisation\u2014that\u2019s good. Local authorities are to manage emergency waste and to repair or replace waste management and minimisation infrastructure damaged by an emergency\u2014that also seems fairly sensible. Of course, it would be good to know what the industry thought about this, if there was a select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, the ministry is \u201Cto undertake its functions and duties and exercise its powers in relation to waste management and minimisation and hazardous substances.\u201D There\u2019s some discussion in the documents about what that means, but, in general, the extension to hazardous sites\u2014that\u2019s not an undue extension, either. Then, finally, \u201C(v) projects that provide for the remediation of contaminated sites;\u201D\u2014again, we\u2019ve been talking about the Fox River. So a lot of the expansions are sensible ones and there has, in part, been some consultation on those in the past\u2014not explicitly, though. However, this general \u201Cactivities that reduce environmental harm\u201D\u2014without any reference to waste, that just gets rid of the nexus completely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI want to focus a little bit on the supplementary analysis report. It\u2019s dated 15\u00A0May\u00A02024. There is a bullet point right on the second page that does allude to activities that reduce environmental harm and/or increase environmental benefits. So that\u2014to remind the House\u2014is the wide clause that we have an issue with. It could be amended to refer to waste, and we\u2019ll be talking about that in the committee of the whole House stage. That wide bullet point right at the top of page\u00A02 is in the executive summary. But then, when you go further into the analysis, you look at paragraphs 93 to 110, you see there that there are little underlined sections, that there\u2019s quite a lot of detail, some analysis, about these changes. So one of them is supporting remediation of contaminated sites, including closed landfills, and there\u2019s a useful discussion. Another one is supporting emergency waste management activities. Again, there\u2019s a useful discussion there. Then, underlined, there\u2019s also one supporting more of the ministry\u2019s waste and hazardous substances work programme. Those three underlined sections align with the changes that I just referred to in the purpose that seem OK. There might be some little fish-hooks in there that it would be good to have a select committee process about, but, in general, they seem OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere is no underlined discussion of this very wide \u201Call environmental outcomes\u201D\u2014that is not included in this report, apart from in the executive summary and a little bit of scattering. The detailed analysis is not there. I presume there was some policy change that happened during the Cabinet process, but I\u2019m worried that it\u2019s a very cynical one. That was what my first reading speech was about, and my colleagues\u2019 as well\u2014that this is just a grab for some cash, and it\u2019s a totally unwise extension of this hypothecated fund that should be addressing waste issues. Those waste issues do include the many old landfills that we have around our coastlines and near both our electorates\u2014the Minister\u2019s and mine. There are old landfills, as there are around the country, and we know that, with climate change, we will have more storm events and we know that there will be changes to how our rivers flow, and, potentially, sea-level rise as well. This will have impacts clearly related to waste\u2014there is the nexus that I was talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESome other issues with the bill are that these criteria that I\u2019ve been talking about in the purpose\u2014the ones that I like that relate to that contaminated land, the emergency situations, and increased compliance monitoring and enforcement-type work\u2014only apply, with the way that the bill is written, to the money that central government is spending. That is, half of the pot of money is central government\u2019s, and so this expansion of criteria only applies to that Government spending. It doesn\u2019t extend to the local government spending, and that seems inconsistent. Local governments, we know, are the entities that have the old landfills in their districts, and they\u2019re trying to deal with that contamination and remediation or capping of it or other various solutions to a problem. So I think it\u2019s important that we understand from the Minister why it is that that local government criteria is not expanded, and I have Amendment Papers around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI would go back to this point, though. The idea of the bill not doing what we would like it to do, which is to extend it to other matters which have a nexus with waste, but to go further than that and rely on this fund for propping up various different environmental programmes, is very short-sighted. The idea that we can just cut all the money in terms of the environment and cut all the money in terms of what we\u2019re doing in conservation is going to lead to long-term costs. We heard the Minister say that there\u2019s different issues, and I heard climate mitigation mentioned. Well, climate mitigation can be done by instruments like the Climate Emergency Response Fund, which has been taken away by this Government, and we need to reduce our emissions. Purely for economic reasons, we need to reduce our emissions. We\u2019ve signed up to a whole lot of agreements and we will end up having to pay a lot of money if we don\u2019t actually reduce emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s very short-sighted. It is totally head in the sand to not be doing work on the environment. This Budget is good for ferrets and nothing else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc5332170445412bb34da1a169108a2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc5332170445412bb34da1a169108a2a\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, it looks like I am the last speaker for the night, so I thought that I could talk a little bit about circular economies, and I know that you all love to learn things. So let\u2019s talk about some of these finite resources that we\u2019re talking about with this extractive, exploitive system that we currently have and why we need to be serious about waste minimisation in New Zealand. We need to be serious about investing in waste minimisation because the waste problem in this country is horrific. There is a major waste problem, and we need this Government to be serious about waste minimisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESo, like I said in my first reading, the infrastructure for waste minimisation has a deficit of $2.4 billion over the next 10 years. That is outrageous when you\u2019re thinking of taking money from the Waste Minimisation Fund, from this waste levy, and putting it into places that you\u2019ve decided weren\u2019t good enough to fund. These are things like clean rivers, because we know Kiwis care about clean rivers. We want our kids to be able to swim in those rivers and learn from the river. We care about community solutions and about people who have been doing this work for generations\u2014the people who are on the ground, who are best placed to come up with these solutions and to deliver these solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EA few days ago, Minister Simmonds spoke at the waste minimisation conference and repeated the words \u201Cindustry-led\u201D. Now, this is what waste levies are about. The other side of the House wants to leave it up to industry, up to the biggest polluters, to do the right thing. Well, it\u2019s actually our job, as the Government, to make sure that our biggest polluters are actually paying the price, because otherwise the people that are going to be paying the price are our future generations. This is absolute greenwashing at its finest. You are slashing funding for clean rivers, you are slashing funding for the Community Environment Fund, you are slashing funding for environmental action and climate action, and then you\u2019re coming over and taking money from these waste levies. These waste levies are also\u2014can I remind the other side of the House\u2014less than half of what they are in New South Wales and in Victoria and in the UK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESo there is a lot of things going on here. Firstly, we need to increase the waste levy more because we have got a massive waste problem in this country. We need to be moving that towards about a $20 a year increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee9c1ace88a04c6481565d413769b1ab\u0022\u003EHon Penny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce1ba3455ddf41a0842d63587c22247a\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, industries actually aren\u2019t feeling that cost of living crisis. So if we actually look at industry paying that extra and leaving households who are doing what they can with what they have\u2014and our households are doing a good job because they do care about the future generations. They do care about waste minimisation. That\u2019s why we saw the uptake in recycling. That\u2019s why we see people repairing things. That\u2019s why we see people wanting to know how to repair their things so that they\u2019re not just having to send them to landfill, which is the current system we\u2019ve got. Do you know the amazing thing about having a waste levy that actually\u2014actually\u2014invests in waste solutions like the Plastics Innovation Fund? But, oh, no, that\u2019s gone too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWhen we actually invest in our communities, the ones who are doing the work on the ground\u2014now, I know that we didn\u2019t get a chance to talk to community, but that\u2019s OK because I did it for you. Today, I went and spoke to Para Kore. Para Kore are the only national, M\u0101ori-led organisation who work on waste minimisation in New Zealand. They work with over 800 organisations around New Zealand at the flaxroots to implement systems to reconnect and to deepen connection with Papat\u016B\u0101nuku and Ranginui and to ensure that our future generations can breathe fresh air from our mountains, and they can swim in the moana and not be swimming in pollution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESo, with the help of Para Kore, the school in M\u0101hia were growing their own food, working on food sovereignty, and then using that food for the Food in Schools project, and then, at the end of that, there was zero waste going to landfill. So that is how effective Para Kore is. But, unfortunately, because of decisions from the other side of the House, you\u2019ve decided to actually slash and burn their funding. So those 800 organisations across Aotearoa who are learning about a te ao M\u0101ori world view of waste minimisation and living in harmony with gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re talking about environment centres\u2014so Environment Hubs Aotearoa\u2014their funding has been slashed as well; environment hubs who became these amazing resources and sanctuaries in our climate emergencies. We saw them stepping up. We saw civil defence using those hubs as distribution centres because those hubs are known to the community. But what\u2019s happening? We\u2019re cutting\u2014well, not \u201Cwe\u2019re\u201D; you\u2019re cutting that funding, as well. So I want to see local solutions. We want to see local solutions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4db5cafc3c449a881cccd30f3ca347b\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The point of order is that in the last debate we were having, this side was instructed very clearly to stick exactly to the bill. We are not hearing about the bill. We\u2019re hearing quite a wide discussion there, but it\u2019s not about the bill itself, and we were instructed to stick specifically to the bill. I don\u2019t think the member there is doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bccd8d3006445088661a375f348702a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is a second reading and I\u2019m sure there are aspects of this\u2014in fact, I know there are aspects of this\u2014that were covered in that first reading. I\u2019ve watched all the proceedings for the day. The member will carry on, but keep it as tight to the bill as you possibly can in the next minute and a half.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d05c6fe81a94962b654b5340aa67c99\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Sure thing\u2014thank you. So Para Kore literally translates to \u201Cpara\u201D which is \u201Cwaste\u201D and \u201Ckore\u201D which is \u201Cnothing\u201D\u2014to \u201Czero waste\u201D. Para Kore is about solutions for zero waste, but their funding is being cut, and this comes from the waste\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a37277563004a4684cb54070d9eb4da\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Because it doesn\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4b347f77158450ab871ca3c86862d02\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the 800 organisations that they work with who are growing food in schools and feeding the tamariki and having zero waste going to landfill\u2014it\u2019s incredible and inspiring, and I\u2019m sorry that the other side isn\u2019t ambitious and that they can\u2019t see that vision for a better future for our tamariki. But we over here can. We can see a world where we live in harmony with nature. Now, EHA is the Environment Hubs Aotearoa. Like I said, they were havens in these climate emergencies, and their funding is being slashed as well. Then what\u2019s happening is the biggest greenwashing that there is, which is that because you\u2019re not funding the environmental initiatives and funding environmental and climate action, what you\u2019re doing is you are not taking waste minimisation seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s talk about those finite resources. Basically, pretty much everything in here comes from five main resources. Those are bauxite, which makes our aluminium; it is iron, which is making our steel; it is the silica sand, which makes our glass; and it is our oil, which is making our plastic. The fifth one is trees\u2014now, that is the only renewable resource out of all of those that we have. I don\u2019t think you\u2019re quite grasping that these resources are finite. We don\u2019t have millions of years for them to come back into being. So once we use those resources up, they are gone, and it\u2019s going to be up to our children and the future generations to be cleaning up our mess. I want us to live by that mantra of \u201CWaste not, want not.\u201D, because that\u2019s what our kids deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to make sure that those people who are on the ground\u2014well, this Government talks about being about localism. Well, you are slashing funding for the communities who are on the ground doing this work and taking funding away from the people who are the most well placed to actually do this mahi because they understand their communities, like that school in M\u0101hia, and like Roma Marae in the Far North, who have a food forest that\u00A0will feed generations to come. That reduces our waste, because if you understand waste, you understand that there is so much embodied energy in anything we do. So when you are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022890299612b5548daa292bfe0d833349c\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Kahurangi, come back tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a34bc9d0aa4396bb8491aca218d5b3\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we\u2019ve got 30 seconds to go. Well, let\u2019s talk about some things that I want for my children and for my future generations. I want my children to live in a world where we treasure the precious finite resources that have been gifted to us by nature, instead of slashing and burning\u2014slashing and burning\u2014them. Then they can live with a legacy of abundance that they deserve, because that is what they deserve. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002261794e7c4d544c65aa8207e0152b3842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261794e7c4d544c65aa8207e0152b3842\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House will resume at\u00A09\u00A0a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12.03 a.m. to 9 a.m. (Saturday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405309f77049115f4411597b737261273b2d4001443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227891b4537f8f4df495bfbcc17b91ea7d\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 30 MAY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229acde546800d4982a00bae44509e6800\u0022\u003E(continued on Saturday, 1 June 2024)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1ca83498661446fb255f03b96c6e4b3\u0022\u003EWaste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022143ae2ad8f8a405194967bc63ac549f9\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228e6a045c22904b708d86d6dfb7cc9d18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e6a045c22904b708d86d6dfb7cc9d18\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed. We are on the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. We are on the fourth call, and I call Laura Trask.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u00229e6f064e861e49668e5bca5d2e96e874\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e6f064e861e49668e5bca5d2e96e874\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m pretty excited to take a call on\u00A0the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. A little bit of a story: my great friends Jodene Turner and Owen Conlon had a baby on 30 May\u2014which happens\u00A0to be the same day that we\u2019re here; bit of a Groundhog Day\u2014named Stevie Conlon. They live in place called Mandeville\u2014and, Matt Doocey, you\u2019re in the House; I\u2019m pretty excited to see you. Why this is important is Mandeville\u2019s in Waimakariri, really\u00A0close to\u00A0Christchurch. It\u2019s on the \u201CWaimak\u201D River, and just up the road there\u2019s a town called Oxford\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d7c27234534f49b050d75c633f136e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is all fascinating\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ec45fe9c92d4484a6bd3e56912afa75\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s definitely about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272756c217cf4404f8507bf626f4d10fb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but are you going to tell us now that they\u2019ve decided to name the baby \u201CMatthew\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb059dd1e5b4a6482e99d6e7e3be6c5\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK\u003C/span\u003E: No. They called the baby Stevie and she was a girl. So just down the road is Oxford, and if you know Oxford well\u2014and Matt Doocey probably knows this issue\u2014there\u2019s a quarry there that they\u2019ve been trying to convert into landfill for quite some time, with quite a lot of public opposition. It\u2019s not yet consented, and we don\u2019t know what that outcome will be. But this levy is really important because, you see, this quarry sits in a landscape buffer zone, so it\u2019s on the side of some of really critical waterways that head straight back down the river and into the Kaiapoi area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a really important area, and this levy here will actually ensure that we have these environmental protections in place. So I stand by this bill, and I commend it to the House\u2014and congratulations to the Conlons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00228315e2ec6efd4e0a8b2bad0a43283c7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228315e2ec6efd4e0a8b2bad0a43283c7c\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s great to be here this morning. Look, listening carefully to the debate last night, it was very, very clear that there is strong agreement across the House about most of the bill. There is strong agreement around the ability to be able to use the levy for emergency management purposes. There is strong agreement around the issues around contaminated landfills and remediation of those. The only area of disagreement seems to be about whether the levy can be used for wider environmental projects. And I ask the other side of the House to think about that, because those are exactly the kinds of great projects that Kahurangi Carter was actually talking about\u2014for those kinds of things to be able to be supported by the levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EShe also referred to over $2 billion in infrastructural deficits in 2020. I\u2019d just like you to think about what the assumptions behind those numbers might be, what might be the quality of investment which is involved there, and what might be already funded. Just because there\u2019s a deficit back then doesn\u2019t mean it\u2019s not been funded already and somebody\u2019s going to go and do it. I think there is also a general agreement around increasing the levy, although I would note, for that side, that a lot of that will fall on the least well off, which seems to be in conflict with some of the other things that you\u2019ve said over the last little while. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe last thing I wanted to say before sitting down is that I\u2019d like particularly the Labour Party to remember the policy bonfire at the beginning of last year and what went on that policy bonfire. I have to say, at the time, I was very, very disappointed to see that there was a deferral of work on a container return scheme that would see small refunds for returning containers. That would have taken a lot of product out of the waste stream and got it reused. It is a shame that that was done, and I hope that\u2019s something that comes back. But I would like the other side of the House to think about that so that they are not preaching from quite such a high pulpit at us. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224eee13213e2e485e849e9dc24e79819c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eee13213e2e485e849e9dc24e79819c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Tangi Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e03554a64e734b29b3c89e9671174efe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e03554a64e734b29b3c89e9671174efe\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Good morning, Mr Speaker. Thank you. It does seem like Groundhog Day because I think last night at about 11.20\u00A0p.m., I followed Mr Foster on this bill, and I\u2019ll do the same today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EYou know, Mr Foster is right: there is some agreement around what this levy could be spent on. But the problem is we are progressing this bill through urgency. And this is the second reading, so, by now, usually in the normal scheme of things, this would have gone to a select committee, we would have heard from the community, and the select committee would have generally, for a matter of months, considered that bill, turned its mind to it, and provided a summary to the House as to what communities of interest\u2014wherever they might be in Aotearoa New Zealand\u2014might have to say about this bill, the changes, and the provisions therein.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s disappointing that it\u2019s been less than 12 hours since the first reading and we are now moving on to the second reading. The difficulty that I and members on this side of the House have is that members of the public have not had a chance to have their say. For a bill that talks about a 50:50 split between central government and local government, I\u00A0think local communities around New Zealand would absolutely take up the opportunity, if given it, to share their views\u2014well, I know they would\u2014and tell us what it is that this money would go towards, what other opportunities it could go towards, and what other forms of innovation exist in communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, last night, just like others in this House, many of us took a call, and we alluded to our experience in local government. My colleague Lemauga Lydia Sosene, last night, talked about her experience in local government. For those of us that have sat around local decision-making tables, we know that when it comes to waste minimisation, you often hear from individuals who would otherwise not talk about, or share their views on, many things. Why? Because they\u2019re passionate. They\u2019re passionate about the environment; they\u2019re passionate about the community. So for this Government to basically move straight to second reading without the opportunity for select committee process to take place is an indictment and really quite unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI recall, actually, when we were in our city pulling together our waste minimisation plan, we heard about the difference of, yes, rubbish but also recycling. We did hear about compost, actually\u2014that was mentioned in the House last night\u2014and we heard about other innovative opportunities as well. Mr Foster and others have talked about the need for emergency works. Now, what my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking has consistently said, over the last 12 hours, on this bill that we support the widening\u2014well, we would support the widening of criteria. However, what is proposed goes far too far, and if we don\u2019t allow the public to have a say on this, that makes it even more confusing and more difficult, I would suggest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ELast night, we talked about the distinction between the levy and the tax. This is a levy that is directed specifically\u2014whether it\u2019s a 50:50 split or some other differential between the central and local government split\u2014and targeted for waste minimisation, in this context, particularly around waste disposal. So when I look at the bill\u2014and no doubt we\u2019ll have plenty of time to explore this when we go through committee stage, and I know there are a number of Amendment Papers that we\u2019ll turn our minds to around that\u2014this is a bill that proposes to widen the scope of additional matters that would be funded. I\u2019m looking at the list here. The first is around environmental harm reduction or what would increase environmental benefits, and that would be something that the Secretary for the Environment would effectively be entitled or empowered to spend revenue that\u2019s generated from this levy on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe waste-related emergency spending\u2014we don\u2019t deny on this side of the House that there needs to be a provision for emergency works. The question is, where does that appropriately sit, and without having an opportunity to hear from people and without having an opportunity on this side of the House to engage directly with the very advisers and officials that would work with select committees at this point in time, it is very difficult to have a fulsome understanding on behalf of the community as to what that might look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOf course, a further bullet point is around the funding for the ministry, which would require it to undertake the various duties that it would have. Now, clearly, the duties would be expanded as a result of this, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister in the committee of the whole House around that and what that might look like. But, fundamentally, we are at second reading. Our colleague Kahurangi Carter, last night, talked about the $2.4 billion infrastructure deficit. This here does not seek to tackle that, and without public input, it is very difficult to support, but we\u2019ll see what the committee stage might bring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u002236571188f6e5410288dfeb85ea4c36f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236571188f6e5410288dfeb85ea4c36f3\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. M\u014Drena, Aotearoa New Zealand. It\u2019s Saturday morning, and you\u2019d like to be watching your kids playing football, because we are human beings; we\u2019re not just ciphers for capitalist annihilation, but this crackhead coal-ition Government smashing through\u2014[Interruption] That\u2019s right, that\u2019s right. You said it. You named yourselves the coalition Government. They are wanting to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022964c2bba307046699ef1d238a41bf181\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Point of order. Point of order. Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cd39719644240e0a386e17d9b72c51d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard the comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022515a32b14e6d4fedb24b898776af8d4b\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I think the comment is unhelpful to maintaining order in the House at this time in the morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b2390a065de413b824498de9b4208d7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was, and I\u2019ve had discussions about this very matter with whips at the Business Committee, so I would ask the member to reconsider the use of that term in the House. It\u2019s unacceptable to make blanket allegations against other parties. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c43464aebb24562afea4f5751f19f96\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker, I\u2019m presuming I can call them the coal\u2011ition Government, though? That\u2019s OK? Yeah. Because, you know, they\u2019re barking \u201Ccoal\u201D from the other side of the House, proudly, all the time. That is relevant to this bill because whilst we may be wasting our time and wasting nature and indeed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d0d971f9fd44350a71f459d2f27d73d\u0022\u003ETanya Unkovich\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called democracy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b45e3b65d0cb43ef811bd482b10e17be\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014wasting democracy, that\u2019s right. We are wasting democracy because the public don\u2019t get a say on this, but this Government listens intently to its lobbyists. One of the interesting cook-arounds on this particular piece of legislation\u2014one of these interesting factors here\u2014is that they\u2019ve been listening well to the big-polluting lobbyists. So, yes, as my colleagues to that side of me\u2014on the left side of the House, but on the right side of me\u2014point out, rightly, we need a waste levy. A waste levy is a good thing\u2014that is broadly supported\u2014but it should be a waste levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister says that it\u2019s for improving and protecting the environment from harm, in fact, what this Government is doing is removing tens of millions of dollars in this Budget that are there for protecting the environment from harm. Protecting the environment from harm is not remediating previous harms or existing harms, and this waste levy that people are paying to reduce waste\u2014they say it\u2019s for waste minimisation\u2014is, in fact, going to be used for cleaning up the mining industry\u2019s mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt says here that it\u2019s for decontaminating mining and industrial sites. That is not what a waste levy is for. If we are to accumulate the necessary funds that we need to rightly build the infrastructure to deal with waste, which is a cost burden to our society and to our environment, we should be putting that money towards reducing waste, not to cleaning up contaminated industrial sites. But, of course, what the very effective lobbyists from the mining industry say to this Government and whisper in their ears\u2014and this Government does listen intently to its lobbyists\u2014is, \u201CYou can spend that money that people think they\u2019re spending on cleaning up waste. You can spend it on cleaning up our mining mess that we left behind, our acid mine drainage, and our massive cyanide-laden tailings dams in Waihi. And when an extreme weather event causes that tailings dam to fail, you can take money from the waste levy to clean that up.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EAbsolutely we should be cleaning up contaminated mine sites. Absolutely we should be cleaning them up, but we should be making the industry most closely associated with that mess pay for it, not the construction industry. So when someone dumps their landfill and they\u2019re going to get charged more for the levy, they\u2019re thinking, \u201CWhy am I paying more for this?\u201D, and the response is, \u201CBecause we\u2019re trying to reduce waste. Oh, but also, we\u2019re actually going to use the money you\u2019ve just paid on that levy to clean up the coal industry\u2019s mess.\u201D That\u2019s actually what this legislation now does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThis is why broadening it beyond waste minimisation is not what this is for. This is\u00A0why broadening it as it does is, frankly\u2014I\u2019m not allowed to say the word that I want\u00A0to\u00A0say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b67a1f4391480bb31e59c1d8e76d9e\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a great idea, Steve. These are orphan sites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dead604810424728975e17b37a47d5c3\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Orphan sites of the industry that created that mess, the legacy industry\u2014are you telling me the construction industry should be playing to clean up the mess of the mining industry? No. Why doesn\u2019t the mining industry have a levy to pay for cleaning up of orphan sites? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296cf5bf94a4249ee87a225d284453386\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Well, why should good operators pay for bad operators?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3e5a6570b004701bf70465aab5a0dc6\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly, that\u2019s what it should be. It should not be coming out of the waste minimisation levy. I actually wonder what the legality is of saying it\u2019s a \u201Cwaste minimisation levy\u201D and then spending it on something other than waste minimisation, because that\u2019s, frankly, not saying what it says on the tin, and that\u2019s not what the public of New Zealand\u2014they\u2019re trying to watch their kids play football and sitting there on the phone going, \u201CWhat? What\u2019s going on here?\u201D, and the Government is saying, \u201CYou don\u2019t get a say on this, by the way.\u201D I think the construction industry would have loved a select committee on this. They could have given their opinion on how good they feel about your using their money for cleaning up mining industry waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt is not protecting the environment to clean up a mess made by an industry from which this Government is removing all the protections for the environment, including water catchment\u2014I\u2019ll get back to that. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002290656ae5063c45968f68cc796c4f276a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290656ae5063c45968f68cc796c4f276a\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E What a surreal world we live in when we hear Green Party members arguing against investment and prudent action in terms of the environment. It\u2019s a surreal world. This is a very practical, pragmatic piece of legislation, and I support it and commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002224ac70e4bac842319299b3d9947300ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224ac70e4bac842319299b3d9947300ea\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This morning, most New Zealanders are waking up to the first day of winter, but in this House, we\u2019re sitting in the cold darkness of 30 May. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022104030e66d4b49f8b978e72b8cd721ec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, we\u2019ll recalibrate the member\u2019s time. Just keep it calm, for goodness\u2019 sake. It is Saturday morning, and I know that people are short of sleep and, for whatever reason, quite excited about being here, but contain your thoughts and wait for the committee stage where you can all have a say, if wanted. Glen Bennett, start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c6a890d2f09401b80d3903569c53bdd\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, thank you. It is nice to see the robust debate taking place here in the House today. But as I said, for the majority of Aotearoa it\u2019s 1 June\u2014it\u2019s winter\u2014but in here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209aab1d21cd04fb68812aeb2f780f69c\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Not in Dunedin\u201420 degrees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022491b1150f9204fb9b4b3220f7fabcc9e\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s 20 degrees in Dunedin, the Hon Rachel Brooking says. But she\u2019d rather be here. She doesn\u2019t want to be in her electorate today; she wants to be here, supporting the environment and supporting initiatives to make sure we protect our precious nature\u2014that we only have one left of\u2014all of nature. As the Hon Rachel Brooking mentioned in the first and second reading of this bill, there are parts of this that we do support. And we\u2019ve been looking at it very closely, and, obviously, waste minimisation and the disposal of waste is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, I live in New Plymouth. In fact, my community of Marfell sits right next to an old dump site that they turned into a park. But that park can\u2019t be used because of what was dumped there many, many years ago. And a lot of people in this House will know when it comes to what this bill is trying to achieve and what it does is around how we remediate some of those old landfills\u2014and it\u2019s really obvious and really clear for me and my community, as we sit and surround what seems like a beautiful park, that once upon a time soccer was played on it, once upon a time there was BMXing, and once upon there was rugby as well, but none of those things are able to be done any more. In fact, none of those things have been done for probably more than 25 years because of the issue of what is under this beautiful looking, pristine park, and the issues\u2014people fell and had parts of their body infected because of what was under there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, we know, and lots of people in this House will know, about the Dow AgroSciences plant in New Plymouth. Again, they created some pretty awful chemicals and toxins, and some of those were buried in Marfell Park. So back in 2009, and I was there\u2014and it came to the attention of the Taranaki Regional Council and the New Plymouth District Council that there were real issues with some of the chemicals that had been buried there many, many years ago, and one of the issues was bleaching. So this bill had only, I believe, just come into Royal assent in 2008, and this was 2009. And I know the regional council and district council spent up to $27,000, and then Dow AgroSciences put in another $50,000 to try to remove these chemicals and deal with it. I think, when I go back to the electorate of New Plymouth on Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday next week\u2014whenever we get there\u2014I will be sort of checking in around what this looks like and what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe thing that we don\u2019t support is\u2014it feels like it is an overreach. It feels like it isn\u2019t targeted as much as it has been, and it\u2019s been working. So when we look at what they\u2019re trying to achieve, they\u2019re wanting to broaden the criteria to many environmental issues and problems. And, as we know, that comes back to the point around the Budget and, in fact, how little there was in the Budget for the environment. So they\u2019re having to find somewhere and some way of finding some money and support to ensure that they can fund initiatives to help protect our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, none of us\u2014well, I hope that none of us\u2014want waste, and I hope that those in this House are conscious consumers when they go to the supermarket or when they go and buy a new fridge or vehicle or whatever it is, because when I look at Marfell Park and the issues of the old landfill that sits there as an eyesore within our own community\u2014200 cubic metres of soil were taken away with contaminants in, but we know there\u2019s far more. So when I go back to New Plymouth, I\u2019m going to be looking at this work and what we can actually do to work again with regional council and with the local district council to ensure that the people of Marfell have what they deserve\u2014they have a decent park, they have a decent playing ground, they have a decent place for the kids to play and for sports activities to happen and for people to walk their dogs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAnd looking at this\u2014and they widen the clauses\u2014I just think we need to be cautious and careful. In the committee stage, I know that the Hon Rachel Brooking has some really thoughtful amendments that she\u2019ll be putting on the Table\u2014some really thoughtful amendments\u2014to actually support the Government in terms of what they are trying to achieve, because we want to be constructive. We want to make sure that we get it right for nature\u2014that we get it right for nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAnd when we look around the country and we look at what\u2019s going on in a lot of sites with climate change and with the challenges, I know there\u2019s a number of dump sites that were close to the ocean. And with the seabed, as some of those areas are reclaimed by the ocean, we see the issues that come with those dumps getting out into the environment. So we want to find ways to move this forward. We want to find ways to ask the Government and work with Government to say, \u201CHey, look, this is a waste disposal levy\u2014that is it. That is the parameter, and we\u2019re not going to stray either way from that.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, Andy Foster spoke before, and he spoke about needing to think about the expansion: \u201CCome on, let\u2019s get on with it, and why not widen it? Come on, let\u2019s just do that.\u201D But I just think, and I come back to my point, this needs to be targeted; this needs to be tight. I believe you said, \u201CThink about the expansion of how the levy can be spent.\u201D, Mr Foster, and I think that\u2019s what we are thinking about and we\u2019re working on, and we\u2019ll make sure that we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, when you look at the Ministry for the Environment and the offer of voluntary redundancies, when you look at the Public Service and the hundreds of jobs that are going in terms of jobs related to the environment, we are going to need to fight really hard, and we\u2019re going to need to work really hard to make sure that something like this doesn\u2019t just become this big, open piece of work where the levy that is taken doesn\u2019t just end up going here, there, and everywhere, and it misses the challenge of cleaning up Marfell Park. It misses the challenge of making sure, where there have been dumping sites and there have been other chemicals buried in places, that they don\u2019t get forgotten and left out, because we\u2019re spending money over here for the environment, which we, of course, support. We want to spend more money on the environment. We would love the Government to reconsider their Budget. We would love the Government to reconsider their cuts. We would love the Government to make choices about how better they protect our environment and how they protect nature and how they protect our climate. But we\u2019re here\u2014we\u2019re here. We\u2019re looking at this legislation, and we\u2019re trying to figure out how we can make it better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI want to just take a moment to have a look at the supplementary analysis report. And it does talk in here about the Government\u2019s decision and priorities that are relevant to this proposal. And it goes on to say, \u201CThe Government\u2019s priorities include a number of areas that require proactive action to prevent significant environmental harm and/or manage cost pressures.\u201D And it all talks about the cost pressures and the need to claw back money in the levy. It talks about addressing environmental harm associated with closed landfills. In addition to this, it talks about supporting the identification and remediation of all types of contaminated sites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIt also goes on to talk about supporting waste management costs associated with emergency events, such as storms and earthquakes. And, as you would know, Mr Speaker\u2014you went through the experience and disaster of the Christchurch earthquakes\u2014there is a need for the legislation to be right to ensure that the amount of waste that had to be put somewhere, and there needs for there to be good processes in place to make sure that waste is disposed of in a safe way. We look at last year, and we look at the Auckland floods. We look at the East Coast and the storms over there, and we look around New Zealand at what\u2019s been going on in recent years. And we know that when there is such destruction and when there is such waste, we need to find ways to make sure (1) we have the costs in place to ensure that we can dispose of it correctly but also that we make sure that legislation is set so it isn\u2019t so wide that, sadly, when there is another Kaik\u014Dura earthquake, or, sadly, when there is another Cyclone Gabrielle, or when, sadly, there is another Auckland floods, we have a tight piece of legislation and we have tight rules around how levies will be spent to ensure that we get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re really looking forward to the committee stage and looking forward to offering ideas to support the Minister to ensure that she can make this bill a lot better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d253b94839f240d58a90886baf5c9002\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d253b94839f240d58a90886baf5c9002\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Good morning, Mr Speaker. We\u2019re all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed on this side of the House today, and we\u2019re very excited about getting the environment and the country back on track. It\u2019s a great bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d75d5b3421204b93abde69d5cf8bc8ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d75d5b3421204b93abde69d5cf8bc8ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call on Reuben Davidson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6f0308c924742e98b689d68f7ac9a2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6f0308c924742e98b689d68f7ac9a2e\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and t\u014Df\u0101 for Samoan Language Week, and I\u2019ll explain why it\u2019s t\u014Df\u0101 shortly. But it is my absolute pleasure to take a call on the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. I said \u201Ct\u014Df\u0101\u201D partly because it\u2019s Samoan Language Week but also because t\u014Df\u0101 means goodbye\u2014goodbye to responsible environmental policy, practice, and funding, and that\u2019s what the waste minimisation bill does. I would also like to say, before I go further, t\u0101lofa to those celebrating Samoan Independence Day at the beautiful Christchurch Town Hall this morning\u2014a stunning building, a jewel in the Crown for Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s a long Thursday, it\u2019s a very long Thursday, and someone said to me this morning as I was getting my coffee, \u201CGee, you must be getting tired.\u201D I said, \u201CNo. We\u2019re just getting started.\u201D We are just getting started, and that is why it is such a pleasure to start this part of Thursday talking about the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. The three things that I think it\u2019s important we come back to, about what this bill sets out to do, are: activities that reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits, waste-related emergency spending, and\u2014this is the really crucial one\u2014funding the Ministry for the Environment to undertake its functions and duties and exercise its powers in relation to waste management and minimisation and hazardous substances. Well drafted, ill intentioned. It\u2019s a money grab to make up for what we have seen, and what we have seen is ruthless cuts to responsible environmental funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to give you an example of a school in Christchurch that I went to that was built on the site of a former landfill. It was a contained landfill beside a river, because back in the day, we always thought it was great to put landfills beside rivers and beside the sea in low-lying coastal areas, because nothing was ever going to change, right? That site became one of the 10 most toxic sites in New Zealand, and it was home to a school. It had very high levels of lead and arsenic, and it took hundreds of thousands of dollars to remediate that site so that it became a safe site to have a school on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThis is not an isolated issue to parts of Christchurch or parts of the South Island or parts of the North Island. This is a New Zealand - wide issue, and if we broaden the scope of this bill, we rob communities and schools of the ability to access the funding that they need to remediate their land. The hypothecation of the funds drawn by this bill, and the broadening of that, literally robs communities and robs schools of creating safe environments to live, work, and play in, and that is definitely not a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESome people have suggested that the broadening of this scope actually turns it into a fast-track clean-up fund, a resource that\u2019s available to tidy up some of the messes that might be created by things like new mines, by irresponsible, reckless environmental activity in places where we shouldn\u2019t be carrying out that kind of activity. I think there\u2019s a real risk that the huge cost that will be required to remediate damage done through that activity will take everything out of the waste minimisation fund and take away its intent, take away its ability to do what it was set up to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo I cannot commend this bill to the House, I cannot commend a weakening of the funds available to remediate sites, and I cannot commend what in real terms is a cut to responsible environmental practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u00224b6d2055fa3442399217af5739049db3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b6d2055fa3442399217af5739049db3\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and good morning. It\u2019s great to be speaking on the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. After all that rubbish we\u2019ve just heard from the previous member, Reuben Davidson, it\u2019s quite ironic that we\u2019re talking about waste minimisation. I think most people watching from home can\u2019t believe that the Opposition would actually argue against spending on environmental projects and outcomes, and I use that word \u201Coutcomes\u201D very specifically because that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to be doing. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb2b8466bb7e45c3abd929472618360b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb2b8466bb7e45c3abd929472618360b\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a real pleasure to take a call on the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. On this side of the House, we\u2019ve had contributions made by our colleague, the Hon Rachel Brooking, who has highlighted why we agree with some of what has been proposed by this Government. However, it is far too broad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EPart of the summary of initiatives that has been outlined\u2014it has been very interesting, because we are not going through a select committee process, so the public does not get the opportunity to raise questions, to raise concerns, and to really scrutinise what is before Aotearoa at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, I want to explain, in my contribution, why we are opposed to this levy that has been hypothecated to be expanded, because if you expand it too much, you lose the focus of the waste-related and environmental activities that are really important. They are important issues to our community. We have a lot of young people, a lot of rangatahi, that are very concerned that this specific levy that will be for communities and industries up and down the country\u2014it is really important to have that specific focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I want to raise is the education on environmental activities. So I\u2019m just going to highlight some of the activities that the levy was helping under this legislation introduced in 2008. Waste minimisation is part and parcel of a movement. We New Zealanders have to be (a) educated, and (b) have strong legislation to guide communities and to guide industry as to why we are going to look after Aotearoa. In terms of the activity, we all have a responsibility to make sure that the whenua that we live in, that we use every day\u2014it is important that people get to have their say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWhen I read through the supplementary analysis report, I appreciate what has been highlighted under the Waste Minimisation Act 2008. It\u2019s really important that we have a focus on emissions from the remediation of contaminated sites. In my local rohe in South Auckland, in M\u0101ngere, because of activity that has been taken by early gardeners, there has been a lot of contaminated soil that has been produced over time\u2014but also by the big housing developments. And there has been a lot of work by Auckland Council in the local communities. Last year, with the Auckland floods, the community, like other communities, was up in arms that the remedial activity that had been taken by Auckland Council was not enough. It just wasn\u2019t enough, and communities suffered a lot of harm in terms of losing everything that they\u2019d had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI want to specifically focus on communities that have English as their second language\u2014specifically for te reo, specifically for Pasifika, and even ethnic communities\u2014where they understand that legislation is there because previous Governments have put that in. However, they don\u2019t understand completely the relationship of the legislation to Auckland Council and to some of the activity. So some of our communities really suffered and lost everything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo I come back to the bill. If the funding is going to be too broad, how then will communities like ours be able to participate and be able to be educated about the environmental harm that will come our way? The impacts are not good when you\u2019re cutting funding from the environmental activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI really look forward to the committee of the whole House stage, so that we are able, as members on the ground in our local communities, to ask the Minister specifically about her understanding about analysis and the modelling and specifically impacts, because if you don\u2019t have the opportunity to have really good stakeholder consultation when you are producing legislation that the Government is so strongly focused on, then that leaves out communities who could have benefited from well-written, well-traversed legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI want to highlight a local situation in my local community that members will not be aware of. There was a particular policy by Auckland Council to do with drains\u2014drains that are on everybody\u2019s road where the water just goes down the drains. We had a problem in our local community where one of our young rangatahi\u2014and I know members are all looking at their phones because they don\u2019t want to listen\u2014died in a drain because the drain was open. The lid of that specific drain was able to be lifted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI roll back to the legislation. It is important for the public to have their say so that members that are sitting around the table on that specific select committee or members of the Government of the day understand the different situations that occur if you don\u2019t have good environmental objectives and if you don\u2019t have a clear process where the community can come along and provide views of the different situations in their local communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we are opposed. We are opposed to the definitions or the wider range being expanded, because you need to have a specific focus, and it needs to be clear to the public why good legislation that is put in by the Government of the day then goes to the territorial local authorities so that, then, communities can understand what these effects are and they could change their behaviour to help with understanding environmental harm in local communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo what I can say in terms of the modelling that I understood, the information that has been provided in the analysis report, is that it just does not go far enough, and broadening the purposes of the levy, where it is supposed to be spent, diminishes that link. It diminishes the link between those paying the levy and the outcomes\u2014the specific outcomes\u2014that are being funded by this levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI cannot emphasise enough the importance of having very good environmental education, because that explains to communities the cause and effect. It also helps communities on the ground, in terms of the levy that is being proposed, so that people understand the intent behind the policy and they can understand the problem that we are all trying to diagnose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the investment of this levy, there are contaminated sites that require remediation up and down the country. For specific councils, like Auckland Council, there was a specific focus on communities, especially the communities that cannot afford some of the costs. This Government has made their announcement\u2014in terms of the Budget, there are just cuts everywhere. People are trying to manage their households, and so their focus is not on environmental initiatives, not if they\u2019re trying to get ahead, not if they\u2019re worried about school lunches, not if they\u2019re worried about their children getting to school and the increased cost of public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo I come back to this bill that is being proposed today, and we absolutely oppose the broadening of the new legislation, because it is important that the future of our rangatahi is really clear on environmental harm. It may influence the change of their behaviour, to choose better careers or a better education, because they understand the actual problem. So I\u2019m very pleased that I\u2019ve been able to take a call on this matter. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8d202beaa3d42e79a9bb306951fa854\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8d202beaa3d42e79a9bb306951fa854\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I don\u2019t want to waste any more time, so I\u2019m going to minimise my contribution and commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223494487e4fa745318ad052f621e5aaa8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000084\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0ccc3d23e744b92b7c34e3aebad6dc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0ccc3d23e744b92b7c34e3aebad6dc9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022855a06cc3e524da78c579dd711392cc3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002297ee16d9f335413697241fa83a53fb28\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00227367ba7da6694e588f98a92d39aa9a4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227367ba7da6694e588f98a92d39aa9a4c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we are in committee on the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill, and we are starting with Part 1, which is the debate on clauses 4 to 12\u2014amendments to the principal Act\u2014and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00226eff200962a44031aab989e3dcfb6fc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226eff200962a44031aab989e3dcfb6fc7\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00228cb9bbcd6a134cfc877cca729e5b08fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cb9bbcd6a134cfc877cca729e5b08fa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002235f6993b68f94295856469bf9a0119ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235f6993b68f94295856469bf9a0119ce\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m standing here and, hopefully, you and the Minister can see me. I\u2019m just looking for the Minister\u2019s indication, because I do have a series of questions on most of the clauses in Part 1, and I think it would be simpler if I go clause by clause and we have a good discussion process with the Minister. I think there was a nod there. There is a nod\u2014excellent. So I won\u2019t be taking full calls, but I would like to ask the Minister a number of questions because, of course, this is not going to select committee and this is our opportunity to get on the Hansard what is meant and what is not meant by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EStarting then at clause 4, which is amendments to the principal Act: if we go to the principal Act, the purpose is confined\u2014sorry, I\u2019ll just flick on to this\u2014at section 3 of the Act. The purpose is \u201Cto encourage waste minimisation and a decrease in waste disposal in order to\u2014(a) protect the environment from harm; and (b) provide environmental, social, economic, and cultural benefits.\u201D Then there is another purpose in Part 3 of the Act, and Part 3 is the waste disposal levy. So at section 25, there is a purpose of that Part 3, and that is \u201Cto enable a levy to be imposed on waste disposed of to\u2014(a) raise revenue for promoting and achieving waste minimisation; and (b) increase the cost of waste disposal to recognise that disposal imposes costs on the environment, society, and the economy.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo what we have here in clause 4 is that the purpose of Part 3 that I just read out is included in the overall purpose section. That seems fine, and I\u2019m not asking any questions on that, except that the Minister can confirm that I\u2019ve not got anything wrong there. That raising revenue part of the purpose is \u201Cthe promotion and achievement of waste minimisation;\u201D, and then there\u2019s a number of other clauses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to come back to subparagraph (ii), but there\u2019s subparagraph (iii), which is to do with \u201Clocal authorities to manage emergency waste\u201D. I do have a question on this that relates to some other clauses as well, and the question on the local authorities is for the Minister to clarify that this purpose section and subsequent sections only really relate to the Government half of the levy. The broadening of the purpose doesn\u2019t apply to how the local authorities can spend their money that they collect through the levy; it only applies to the money that they spend via the central government\u2019s collection of the levy. I have no problems with this emergency waste addition at new subparagraph (iii).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen at subparagraph (iv), it\u2019s that the ministry can undertake functions and duties in relation to waste minimisation and hazardous substances. I just have a very small question on this, and it\u2019s just around the grammar. So it\u2019s \u201Cin relation to waste management and minimisation and hazardous substances;\u201D. Do those hazardous substances have to relate to\u00A0waste management and minimisation? Should there be\u2014if you listen to Chris Finlayson or not\u2014another comma in there? A small point, but one that I\u2019m sure the officials can help\u00A0with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen at subparagraph (v): \u201Cprojects that provide for the remediation of contaminated sites;\u201D. A small question on this point is around what\u2019s happened to that contamination fund\u2014the separate fund that didn\u2019t come through the levy. That\u2019s the second question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen at paragraph (b): increase the cost of the waste disposal levy. That\u2019s unchanged from what we\u2019ve got in the Act at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing back, then, to subparagraph (ii), that is \u201Cactivities that reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits;\u201D. I might just pause here and come back to it if the Minister is agreeable, so that she can answer my grammatical question on subparagraph (iv) and if there are any comments on subparagraph (iii) about local authorities and that connection to emergencies being through the central fund, and that I\u2019ve described the purposes appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7797d48488443538f98084dfd70b134\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7797d48488443538f98084dfd70b134\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve just got two related but, I think, quite narrow questions. Obviously, the crux of our opposition to this bill is in clause 4 there\u2014the fact that the fund can be used on activities that reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits\u2014this general purpose, which doesn\u2019t have any link to waste. My question is really quite precise: given the purpose of the waste minimisation bill overall, is it the Minister\u2019s intention that when those funds are spent, there will be some connection with waste in some way? I\u2019ve read the disclosure statement and the analysis that the department\u2019s done, and it seems in that analysis that there is expected to be at least some connection with perhaps an adverse reaction as a result of waste, or a mitigation as a result of waste, but perhaps not quite as constrained as in the other parts of that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIf the answer to that is no, then I guess my question then is: did the Minister talk to the Minister for Regulation about that? Because a charge which is able to be used for general purposes not connected with the activity levied is actually a tax, because it goes for a more general purpose of Government, and that cuts right across principles of good regulation and good lawmaking. The Legislation Design and Advisory Committee, in chapter 17 of its guidance, makes very clear the distinction between a fee, where you pay for a service; a levy, where you pay an amount related usually to an industry or a general regulation of activity, like ACC levies or producer board levies or things like that, where there is a direct connection between what\u2019s going on and what the money is spent on; and a tax, where you take money off citizens in one way or another and you can then just spend it in a way which is unrelated to the activity which generated that revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I know the Minister for Regulation is keen on good regulatory design\u2014he\u2019s just getting funded for his bizarre new ministry, his vanity project\u2014but I\u2019m hopeful that you\u2019ve had a conversation with him and that he has reviewed this. Because I am concerned that it\u2014and the document talks about needing to find more money to pay for stuff, and that\u2019s fine, in the waste space. I can absolutely accept that, in the waste space. My friend Glen Bennett talked about contamination and historical problems, and I can understand the need to look at ways to minimise waste, new recycling, the kind of regulation there. But the sort of general \u201Clet\u2019s save the whitebait\u201D or the kiwi or the k\u0101k\u0101 or whatever it might be\u2014there just doesn\u2019t seem to be any causal connection. But it does fit within the general and generic environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, on this side of the House, we absolutely support protecting the environment and we support the proper use of Government funds to do that, and that fund has to come from the public. But to have a waste minimisation fund\u2014and we accept that, a little, we can expand that and talk about a bit more than just waste minimisation; it\u2019s waste management as well and mitigation of waste harm. That\u2019s what this bill should be doing. But a generic extension to anything to do with the environment seems to be an overreach. So is that overreach real, or will there be, because it sits within this principal Act, a necessary connection between waste and expenditure? And if not, was the Minister for Regulation savvy to the imposition of what appears therefore to be a tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00225ea96322979a46bc8e028e6c13f2fddd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ea96322979a46bc8e028e6c13f2fddd\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will answer the questions that have come through from the Hon Rachel Brooking. First of all, she is correct that the purpose of clause 4 amending section 3 of the principal Act is relating only to Government levy proportion, not to the local authority 50 percent. With regard to the comma and whether other intentions were there with the hazardous substances: no, the responsibilities extend to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI just also want to touch on the points that both the Hon Rachel Brooking spoke to and also the Hon Duncan Webb in terms of the broadening out of the waste levy. Of course, use of resources is a whole of lifespan of those resources. There are many impacts on the environment through from the extraction point through to the use and manufacturing and then final disposal, and therefore the ability to put a levy on at that disposal end gives that flexibility to be able to address some of the environmental impacts that occur through the lifetime of that product. So the waste levy still will be a levy. Widening the purposes of how the levy can be spent still retains that link to the various environmental impacts that go on through the life cycle of a product.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EJust to give further reassurance, I can point the members to South Australia and New South Wales, and also examples in Ireland where, in fact, they recognise exactly this and use their waste disposal levy for wider environmental impact and issues, because of that very notion of that whole-of-life cycle from extraction through to disposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00227ac7743db37b49a1ad2172db7641c23e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ac7743db37b49a1ad2172db7641c23e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I would like to ask the Minister for the Environment about this expansion of the scope of the use of the waste levy, which includes former mining and industrial sites. This is a very important piece of work that we absolutely agree has to be done. It\u2019s essential that we work out how to decontaminate those sites. Our position, I think, is that it shouldn\u2019t come out of a waste levy. But my question is: what is the shortfall in terms of the moneys necessary to properly deal with those contaminated mining and industrial sites? What is the shortfall that is trying to be met there? If we understand the dollar value of that, we begin to understand how much of the waste levy will be used for doing things other than dealing with waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to ask about is that there is a problem with the allocation of this money to cleaning up not just historic sites\u2014there\u2019s no mention of it being for only historic contamination\u2014it also says that it will be used for catchment remediation: \u201Cworks and funding to support the management of New Zealand lakes, rivers, streams, groundwater, and wetlands.\u201D Now, that is good work. We support that work. But catchment remediation may include mitigating the impacts from contaminants that are coming from an active industry right now, the obvious one being nitrate contamination from dairy cow urine, which is turning rural people\u2019s drinking water carcinogenic. It\u2019s possible, through this wording and the definition of contaminants in section 5, that this money from the waste levy could be used to clean up the mess created by a billion-dollar industry that is operating right now in New Zealand, and the obvious question the public would have is: why are you charging me for waste minimisation and then using that money to clean up a mess made by the dairy industry, or made by the coalmining industry? That\u2019s my question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s an obvious solution here to this broadening of the definition. It\u2019s simply to add in an amendment. In clause 4, we replace section 3(2)(a)(ii), on page 2, with the words \u201Cactivities relating to waste that reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits\u201D. That is a proposed and tabled amendment so that, rather than being simply activities that reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits, we make sure that it\u2019s activities relating to waste. I want to say that we support a waste levy\u2014it is a good thing\u2014but, for us to grow the pool of money necessary to deal with reducing our waste, it needs to be spent on that; it needs to be spent on waste. No argument with the need to decontaminate sites, no argument with the need to remediate water, but the industries more closely associated with the harms caused by contamination of water or mining waste should be paying for the cost of that, not the public and not the construction industry, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI would like to ask the Minister how logically, or in principle, do you think it is fair that the construction industry should be paying for cleaning up mass acid mine drainage from the coal industry. How is that, in the mind of the Minister, a fair allocation of the levy, which, as my colleague points out, once it\u2019s so broad that it\u2019s not doing what it says on the tin, is a tax. It\u2019s a broad tax on the public, including those of us who put our rubbish at the front gate. It\u2019s a broad tax on the public to pay for cleaning up the mess of industries that are wealthy enough to be made to pay to clean up their own mess. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00224ac471eb6a81467eadbe1f5abb47c83d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ac471eb6a81467eadbe1f5abb47c83d\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll respond to the member\u2019s questions. Of course, the member will know that there are a number of historical contaminated and vulnerable sites right across the country. The ministry is working closely with local authorities in terms of ensuring there is an assessment tool to be able to prioritise those sites so that we can certainly work through them together\u2014local authority and central government working through them together\u2014and this levy will, of course, provide the opportunities for central government to assist with that, particularly around the ability to waive the levy fee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI know that one of the small South Island local authorities noted to me recently that this remediation work that they were intending to do in two of their sites\u2014around a tenth of the cost was actually the levy. So it will certainly enable the central government proportion of the levy to be used, but also the ability to waive the levy fees from the local authority and so reduce some of that burden on the local authorities for it. But we are definitely talking about a large number of these sites right across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWith regard to catchments, of course the issue across different catchments is different. It may be sediment, it may be nitrates, it may be E. coli. I am surprised that the member might argue not to use the levy to address some of those issues, because the source is often very difficult to establish. And also, again, I would have expected the member to be fully cognisant of the fact that any resource that we use\u2014any resource from the extraction of that resource through the manufacturing of it, through the use of it, through the disposal of it\u2014has an impact on our environment all the way through. And therefore, putting the levy at the end, at the disposal end, and then using that levy to address issues that occur for the environment all the way through the use of that resource is a very sensible thing to do and a thing that, as I mentioned before, is being done by other jurisdictions\u2014South Australia, New South Wales, Ireland. So we\u2019re not reinventing something here; it\u2019s being done elsewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022164bdf358b2f422295f4646fc2f3ee33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022164bdf358b2f422295f4646fc2f3ee33\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m still on clause 4 and on that subparagraph (ii) that the Minister was just talking about. It\u2019s been interesting in her answers to Dr Duncan Webb and the answer we\u2019ve just had on that nexus between waste and general environment being to do with a circular economy. I think that that\u2019s the sort of concept that I heard the Minister talking about, and I\u2019m very\u00A0pleased to hear our Minister for the Environment talking about that and would hope that she will move with the responsibility for reducing waste legislation as well\u2014a little plea there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut the Minister was just saying other jurisdictions have got that this waste levy going to general environmental harm, and she was there making some examples about the whole-of-life issue, which I agree with. However, there are things that are not to do with waste\u2014say, fertiliser running into a river, causing some pollution of the river. That\u2019s not to do with waste; that is a separate issue. So that is why I have got a tabled amendment to amend both clause 4\u2014that subparagraph (ii) that we\u2019re talking about, which is the activities that reduce environmental harm\u2014and clause 9, because the words are repeated there. At the moment, it reads \u201Cactivities that reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits\u201D, which is very wide and includes my fertiliser example and the example of coalmines and landfills and those sorts of things. That\u2019s already covered by projects that provide for the remediation of contaminated sites at subparagraph (v). No problem with subparagraph (v); it\u2019s just this breadth at subparagraph (ii).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve suggested, rather than have the \u201Cor increase environmental benefits\u201D, to replace that with \u201Ccaused by waste\u201D. So subparagraph (ii) would read \u201Cactivities that reduce environmental harm caused by waste\u201D, and that provides the nexus. So I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments on that, given her acceptance of the circular economy and that waste can lead its own life after it becomes waste, that goes on for many years and creates all sorts of environmental problems, and, of course, we want to move to a circular economy whereby we\u2019re not actually creating waste. That is the long-term goal, in that we\u2019re thinking of the whole life cycle of a product. I also note that the Greens have a proposed amendment which is similar, and that would be that they just add in activities relating to waste\u2014is the change there\u2014that \u201Creduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe question for the Minister, really, is, given her commitment to a circular economy and the examples that she\u2019s given that relate to wider environmental benefits that still have some relationship to waste, why can we not amend subparagraph (ii) to be explicit about that nexus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00223df994ea89654cc2a4fda52eb68a8ef1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223df994ea89654cc2a4fda52eb68a8ef1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dae4797e5f24010ad317c6e921129e1\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m Francisco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022778dbb1228c64d9fabf074f6e52f0b63\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Francisco. Sorry\u2014Francisco, my apologies. Francisco Hernandez.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u00229198b21d9963455fb192fc78b359bdf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229198b21d9963455fb192fc78b359bdf7\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E No beard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022222215c3780543c6805dcefa78260684\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014I got it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c481c3de1244499a8b8bde4a8a17f93\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The crux of the question of this legislation to me is whether it will actually reduce waste volumes going to landfill. And for us to determine that, I\u2019d like to ask three questions of the Minister for the Environment. Has there been any analysis done on the reduction of waste volume to landfill as a result of these proposed changes? And if so, what did the analysis say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EAnd the second question is what assumptions were made on price elasticity on the Ministry for the Environment waste model that is being referred to\u2014the waste disposal levy model? Because when I worked at the Climate Change Commission, we used that model, and if my recollection serves, its waste is actually quite price inelastic. And that\u2019s supported by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research report, which came out with the waste disposal levy papers. So I\u2019m just going to quote from it because it\u2019s really important that we have a picture of how price inelastic waste is. So it reads, \u201Cthere is some effect, but not a large effect on waste volumes. The percentage change in the volume of waste disposed \u2026 is much less than the percentage change in price of [waste] disposal\u2014waste disposal \u2026 is price inelastic. \u2026 The international evidence \u2026 suggests that price changes are more effective if they are accompanied by other measures to reduce barriers to recycling and other alternatives.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThis feeds on to my third question to the Minister. Is there a breakdown on how the waste levy is intended to be spent? Because we\u2019ve heard from my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking about how the dehypothecation of the funds kind of makes it so that it can be spent on a whole wide range of other activities, which means there\u2019s actually a world where the investment in resource recovery actually goes down as a result of the dehypothecation, which I\u2019m sure everyone in this House would agree would be a very bad thing. And the other crucial thing is that the waste sector is essential for New Zealand to meet its climate targets, particularly around domestic methane. Unfortunately, this Government isn\u2019t committed to supporting farmers in reducing their methane emissions as much as the previous Government was, which means it\u2019s up to the waste sector to do the heavy lifting of reducing waste emissions. So there is a world where, if as a result of the dehypothecation in funding, there\u2019s actually less money going to resource recovery, which would be bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EI want to quote from the 2021 waste labour report. There were 224 expressions of interest received in that and only 34 were successfully funded. So we can already see that the existing funding for waste minimisation and waste recovery is already insufficient to meet with the demands of the resource recovery sector. And I\u2019ll give an example for that. There\u2019s a really good waste reduction initiative in Dunedin\u2014the electorate which I\u2019m based in as a list MP\u2014called the Stitch Kitchen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204ba74f84a764e2bba058a298a40152a\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: A great MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cf928752909447282316b28c4dc5fb2\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014go Dunedin; great city. That\u2019s right; the Stitch Kitchen. What they do is they train people to reduce textile waste by giving people skills to sew, stitch, and recycle textiles that would have otherwise gone to waste. They\u2019ve not been funded through the waste levy, and there\u2019s thousands and thousands of other people around the country, lots of people doing great work in the resource recovery sphere that are not currently being funded because the current funds that already exist even before the dehypothecation are already insufficient. So I really want to make sure and really get a breakdown of how the waste levy will actually be spent, and get some sort of guarantee that the intention is to actually increase the resource recovery funding because we\u2019re all saying that it\u2019s really great to reduce the waste. That\u2019s fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m just going to sum up the three questions that I asked because I acknowledge that I\u2019ve kind of circled around a wide variety of topics which are all still to do with waste. The first question to the Minister was: has there been any analysis done on the impact of the levy changes on waste volumes? The second question was: what assumptions were made on price elasticity and how responsive the garbage volumes are to the waste levy changes? And the third: is there a specific breakdown of how the waste levy will be spent? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00222cdc45bd4094465189869611d86f32ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cdc45bd4094465189869611d86f32ba\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will answer some of the questions that have been coming through. I just want to re-emphasise that the waste minimisation levy does not usurp any of the existing liabilities within the Resource Management Act and other relevant legislation that perhaps Steve Abel might have been inferring; that the levy would be used to clean up waste of existing operating industries where there might already be other legislation that covers their activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EAlso, in terms of the price elasticity, I\u2019m very aware that the peak amount of waste that was being generated was 2018, and with the more substantial increases in price that came in from 2019 we are seeing a slight reduction in waste per head of population. So, obviously, as the price goes up there is some incentive to create less waste. It\u2019s not perhaps the amounts that we are putting in. We are having to have that fine balance between ensuring that there is some incentive to reduce waste, being mindful of the cost of living crisis that we are in, and being sure that we have sufficient infrastructure there for other means such as reuse, recycling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EYour comments about the number of entities that aren\u2019t getting funded: of course, this is a contestable fund and there\u2019s a very robust process that is gone through so I won\u2019t comment on individual applications that may not have gone through. But also, I would note that Cabinet have asked that Ministry for the Environment officials work to establish what might be an appropriate envelope of funding for each of the uses. So, very clearly, we are going to look at ring-fencing for each of the uses that are within the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022510bf5b59dc540308b8d0a736fab1b61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022510bf5b59dc540308b8d0a736fab1b61\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to be able to speak to this bill at the committee stage. I have just drafted an amendment and it\u2019s just being delivered now, but I really want to speak to the contents and the background of that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIn Christchurch East, we have a number of waste minimisation facilities and waste facilities, but we also have an incredible set of natural resources. So I just want you to imagine, if you can, a beautiful estuary, wetlands, and a beautiful river mouth that feeds into the estuary and creates bird life, native plants, and trees. It\u2019s an incredible environment, it\u2019s stunningly beautiful, and it\u2019s also the home of the organics processing plant for not just Christchurch City but also the surrounding districts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a really large industrial organics processing plant that was opened in 2009. There are a lot of people who won\u2019t have seen it, but there are not many people who haven\u2019t smelt it. Members may well laugh, and it definitely has an odour, but it\u2019s actually deeply disturbing\u2014not just the odour but the impact that that odour has on the community. So some of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dc97cd5c1484b57a7a5bc7e4cec3157\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Is it as bad as the dairy factory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022766d561521eb400fb9d992f86edb20c7\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s possibly worse than the dairy factory, I say to that member\u2014possibly worse. There are residents in Bromley and the surrounds of the organics processing plant who, when it was at its worst, could not sleep in their homes. They literally had to leave their homes when the wind blew in certain directions and had\u00A0to go and sleep in their cars in vehicle lay-bys upwind of where the odour was blowing. I think that\u2019s a pretty unacceptable impact for an organics processing plant to have on a community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESimilarly, the local school in Bromley had to have days when kids could not leave the classroom. If you can imagine that: you\u2019re at school, it\u2019s lunchtime, you want to go outside and enjoy a healthy school lunch and you want to play with your mates, and the organics processing plant literally meant children could not go outside to play and could not go outside to eat their lunch. It\u2019s a very, very negative impact for an organics processing plant to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, the really good news here is that there were a number of local residents who became very vocal and very organised and worked with city councillors who heard their concerns\u2014and this comes to the first of many questions I have around this bill at the committee stage, and they\u2019re around the question of engagement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EWhen changes are suggested at the level that is suggested in the amendments in this bill, and when these amendments are going to have the impacts that they will have on communities, the question really is around the Minister\u2019s level of comfort with not having a select committee process for this bill, not allowing communities who will be impacted by the redirection of funds through the amendments in this bill to have a say, and what message that sends to communities about them having the ability to have their voice and their opinion into these amendments and their impacts. I think we have to be really conscious that we\u2019re removing people\u2019s ability to partake in the democratic process of changing laws, and when you literally don\u2019t allow that to happen, I think there\u2019s a real risk with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo the first question really is around the Minister\u2019s level of comfort with skipping the select committee process, not allowing the select committee process, and what message the Minister thinks that sends to the communities that will be affected by\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ce72279b4914e0b99f5f2dfd0e704cd\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: A stink.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eda5f75b1aa741d3a33354c23f46dafd\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely\u2014by very real stinks that affect their home life, their school life, and their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1debed5de1f47408ecc5f03bba04efc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1debed5de1f47408ecc5f03bba04efc\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to bring some local government experience to this area. My questions will relate to what this actually reduces the spending on. I actually had the waste portfolio at Wellington City Council in 2008 when this excellent bill became an Act, and some of you may understand how robust and long-lasting a good Green bill can be, because this was brought in not by the larger parties but by the work of N\u00E1ndor T\u00E1nczos. So I ask the Minister to reflect on how this bill has lasted through various changes of Government and, until now, has begun to really reduce waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to ask the Minister whether she agrees that changing the breadth of areas that can be funded from this bill\u2014and none of us disagree with remediating landfills and those areas that have been added; we just are concerned about removing the funding from the preventative side of things. Is the Minister concerned that, by widening the application of the levy, we will do less on product stewardship on the six products\u2014there are only six product areas: plastic packaging; tyres; electrical and electronic products, colloquially known as e-waste; agrichemicals and their containers; refrigerants and other synthetic greenhouse gases, another area where waste and climate change connect; and farm plastics. Those were all agreed in, I think, 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003ESurely, the Minister must want some more product stewardship at the top of the cliff. I see the remediation activities and the dealing with the effects of climate change as another example of this Government dealing with the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff rather than investing in long-term, intergenerational prevention measures. So if the Minister could address what areas are not being funded because of the transfer; if she could address the areas of what products should have some stewardship applied\u2014this is meant to be an innovative process that helps manufacturers redesign their processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EIf you look at other countries, let\u2019s take a car example, because I know everyone in New Zealand seems to be obsessed with cars. The new Volvo has been produced. I think it uses wool\u2014so that will keep certain members in this Chamber very happy\u2014in its fabric; it recycles materials; and its embodied energy is far lower. Now, New Zealand is not manufacturing cars but we do manufacture many other products, and also we import things\u2014I think, maybe some limitations on what\u2019s imported; making sure that you can recycle it. Demanding that the individual household sorts\u2014instead of putting it on the system. Would the Minister agree that relying on individual action with confusing and inadequate labelling is far inferior to fixing the system, the manufacture, and the import of goods that cannot be recycled, and that we should be able to fund that prevention of waste, prevention of pollution, using this levy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure the Minister would agree that this is a good partnership at the moment between local and central government, the levy sharing. It might be interesting to look into a little bit more whether the local government share is being used wisely, or whether it\u2019s just being used to prop up some fairly ineffective kerbside recycling in some places. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00223a1fafa05cf34d25af5fefb8a6b54b9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a1fafa05cf34d25af5fefb8a6b54b9d\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will answer some of the questions that have come through with regard to the bad-smelling Organics Processing Plant in Christchurch. That is certainly an example of where other legislation is applicable; not this amendment that we are discussing at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ETo the member who has just sat down, Celia Wade-Brown, if I could remind her that the previous Government had no addition to the levy from 2025 onwards. This amendment is, in fact, increasing the levy and increasing the amount of money that will come in. I think you made a comment about removing funding. It\u2019s not removing funding; it\u2019s increasing the funding. I realised that in the discussion that we had a little earlier, you may not have heard around how the Government intends to identify what the envelope of funding will be for each of the uses that it can be used for in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EIn terms of the amount of funding that\u2019s going to be available and the expansion of the use of funding, we also discussed earlier that widening the purpose of the funding is quite normal in other jurisdictions. That is being done in South Australia, in NSW, and in Ireland. And of course, we talked about the environmental impacts of any resource that we use, right through from the extraction of that resource, to the manufacturing, to the use, to the disposal. There are environmental impacts that occur along that range of use. Therefore, taking the levy at the disposal end of it, it is entirely appropriate to then use\u00A0that\u00A0to address some of the environmental impacts that occur through its life cycle. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u00229ccd7cba70de43dab47b783d5bfd8016\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ccd7cba70de43dab47b783d5bfd8016\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3f3b54172b24c518b9aed94f35e94f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3f3b54172b24c518b9aed94f35e94f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not taking the closure motion. There\u2019s still quite a bit of new material coming through. I call the Hon Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee4f098b166f4e04b5c698a7f5026ced\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee4f098b166f4e04b5c698a7f5026ced\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll just start with reminding the Minister of a couple of my questions that haven\u2019t been answered. One was in relation to the contamination fund\u2014that was my first one. Then just on this piece that we\u2019ve just been discussing again, I\u2019ve put up an amendment to make that nexus towards waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard the Minister say that the circular economy is very wide, so there should be wide-ranging issues that the money can be spent on. So perhaps you\u2019d be interested in amendments rather than \u201Ccaused by waste\u201D around environmental problems that \u201Care related to the circular economy\u201D, or something to that effect if that is the purpose of this legislation\u2014that it doesn\u2019t expand to my fertiliser point. That\u2019s the issue: the fertiliser, at the moment, is still included in paragraph (ii). If it should be the whole life cycle of a product that can have many lives, then I\u2019m sure there is some wording that could achieve that in an amendment to (ii).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut in terms of new material, I am moving now to section 5, which is the interpretation clause, and just a very small question here. I noticed that the definition of \u201Ccontaminant\u201D is the same as that which is found in the Resource Management Act; whereas a few words down we get to \u201Chazardous substance\u201D and that just refers to the definition in the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. I have no comments on either of those definitions. It\u2019s just: why that inconsistency where one refers to the relevant other statute and one uses the words from the other relevant statute? Simple question. So\u00A0that\u2019s on section 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ll move through now to some other clauses as well and note that the transitional and savings provisions are in Schedule 1. So if we move to Schedule 1, this has some dates for the criteria and it\u2019s the earlier of the Minister notifying criteria or 1 January 2025. I\u2019m just wondering about this because the criteria are not mandatory. So has the Schedule been drafted with the idea that there will definitely be some criteria? Because then it\u2019s possible that this will come into effect on 1 January 2025 without criteria found\u00A0in section 38. So that\u2019s another small question that that Minister might be able to answer as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAnother question, going back to my Amendment Papers\u2014and this is one that I haven\u2019t discussed yet. Well, the first one also amends clause 9 because we have that repetition of \u201Cenvironmental harm or increase environmental benefits\u201D. So I\u2019ve proposed that the \u201Cincrease environmental benefits\u201D comes off and that\u2019s replaced with \u201Ccaused by waste\u201D. So \u201Cfunding activities that reduce environmental harm caused by waste\u201D. But as I\u2019ve just proposed to the Minister, if she would prefer a reference to circular economy or something along those lines, then that would work as well. Again, there we have this repetition of the funding of local authorities\u2014and the Minister\u2019s confirmed that that is from the central government fund, not the local government half.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen we have a reference to the wider functions and duties of the ministry, including hazardous substances, and we\u2019ve had a conversation as well about that. But my question is why there\u2019s no reference here to the remediation of contaminated sites. Is that because\u00A0it\u2019s coming from some other fund or is there a reason for that? So I have put up an amendment that would provide that, so in clause 9 to add a new paragraph (vii) funding activities that provide for the remediation of contaminated sites. I don\u2019t know how the\u00A0architecture of the legislation is working in that regard, and if that\u2019s a helpful suggestion or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022264abf49da864734abcd304b5b446308\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022264abf49da864734abcd304b5b446308\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I apologise. I did overlook the question around the Contaminated Sites Remediation Fund, and my apologies for that. Yes, you\u2019re correct: the fund will close as a separate appropriation and instead it will be funded from the levy at a much higher levy. I have indicated that I intend to see this as a priority: funding the remediation of contaminated and vulnerable sites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EIn terms of the criteria for funding contaminated sites, we\u2019ll be drawing on the criteria from the Contaminated Sites Remediation Fund and seeking further input from the Waste Advisory Board. So certainly there\u2019s nothing lost there. In fact, there is going to be a gain of greater access to a greater level of funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022013e340b38694f518dcb5d213b391566\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022013e340b38694f518dcb5d213b391566\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually understand the genesis of this bill, because the best parts of it are Labour Party policy. There are problems with the Waste Minimisation Fund in the limits to which it can be put. The two main problems are that you can\u2019t use the fund for the development of product stewardship schemes that we need as a country to bring forward in order to manage solid waste. The waste minimisation levy is collected from New Zealanders and municipalities in respect of solid waste going into landfills, and it is appropriate that that money be able to be put towards the efforts that reduce that waste in order to move towards a circular economy. It is a public policy failure that this bill fixes, that you should be able to use this money to produce product stewardship schemes. So all well and good. It\u2019s also good and proper that legacy landfills, old landfills generally owned by councils, should be able to be fixed up through money from the waste management levy, and this bill also allows that\u2014although not in a careful enough manner\u2014and that\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut those legacy landfills aren\u2019t just a central government problem, they\u2019re a local government problem, and this bill doesn\u2019t fix that because it doesn\u2019t allow the local government to put their share of the waste minimisation money into their share of cleaning up these old landfills. And that\u2019s one of the problems you have when you try and do these things through urgency. Although Rachel Brooking\u2019s amendments fix that problem, the National Party is going to vote against them\u2014I know this because the Hon Rachel Brooking came to me and said, \u201CHow do you manage these things?\u201D And we said, \u201CWell, we actually talk to the Minister.\u201D So she talked to the Minister and the Minister could see the merit, but the Minister doesn\u2019t seem to be in a position, because of the lack of some Cabinet authority or something like that, to agree to the amendments. And that\u2019s the problem of doing this sort of thing through urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s the other problem with this? The poor definition of what this money can now be spent on is so broad that it goes beyond remediating problems arising from solid waste. The Government, having stripped out in this Budget all of the money from the Freshwater Improvement Fund and other funds like that that can address fresh water, have now turned this into a slush fund that could be, if they wanted, used to go on things other than remediation of solid waste. And that is wrong. That\u2019s why, on this side of the House, despite the fact that there are some good things in this bill, we\u2019re forced to oppose it, to drag this out, to prove that this shouldn\u2019t be being done during urgency. It\u2019s not central to the Budget. There\u2019s no reason this couldn\u2019t have been done\u2014you know, for the next seven weeks, Parliament is sitting one week\u2014one week. So no question time\u2014[Interruption] Two weeks, is it? Sorry, two weeks\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd510e674cba4de79b07ddce028d9de7\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: But one\u2019s a scrutiny week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e286c8e8e48e497092bac3197b18b156\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: So one\u2019s a scrutiny week. Yeah, there\u2019s only one week of question time in the next seven weeks. So we can\u2019t scrutinise this, we can\u2019t hold the Government to account for this, for other aspects of the Budget\u2014you know, this, Madam Chair, is all arising from this part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI ask the committee\u2014there are senior members on the other side of the Chamber; they should be looking at Rachel Brooking\u2019s amendments on this, which are very, very simple and\u00A0do what I have described. They should be backing them. They should be backing them,\u00A0notwithstanding this urgency. Show some leadership. Do the right thing here. This is, essentially, reasonable legislation, for the reasons that I\u2019ve described, but it\u2019s being mucked up by the Government by doing it under urgency, because no one on the front bench there is willing to actually look at the amendments and say, as we used to do with Simon Power across the House in the old days, \u201CJust have a look at them.\u201D Have a look at those things, ask the officials from the Ministry for the Environment as to whether these are sensible amendments that have been put up, and if they are, vote in favour of them. Vote in favour of them and make this legislation better and sort out the issues that this needs to sort out, including limiting this to being solid waste rather than other forms of waste, and making sure that you\u2019re fixing it for councils as well as for central government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00226d4594f8d84744b5822a8ce88953020b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d4594f8d84744b5822a8ce88953020b\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member the Hon David Parker, who has just sat down, for his impassioned comments on this. I also thank the member for the work that was done under his time in terms of the container deposit scheme and other stewardship schemes. I\u2019m sure he was delighted to see the tyre scheme starting on 1 March. Certainly, there is work in the pipeline there that will be progressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EIf I could just assure him, there is some support for the local government. Not only are they getting of course a greater amount of money\u2014their 50 percent proportion remains the same but it\u2019s of a greater amount\u2014but also the ability to apply to have the levy waived for the remediation work. As I have said earlier, I was talking to a small local authority in the South Island, where they had two quite significant contaminated sites that were going to cost about $15 million to remediate. They were encouraged, of course, to apply for assistance from central government for that, but now they also, with the passing of this bill, would have the opportunity to apply to have the levy waived for that work, which they told me was somewhere between 8 and 10 percent of the cost of that remediation and quite a barrier to those smaller councils. So I believe this bill is addressing some of the issues for local authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EBut can I just assure the member and also the Hon Rachel Brooking that in the legislative programme for this year, I also have a wider reform of waste legislation in there that can address some other matters and give us time to consider whether there might\u00A0be merit in expanding the scope of what the local authority can use their proportion for. So all is not lost!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d84020e406b0481b8efc029331ed032e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d84020e406b0481b8efc029331ed032e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call Steve Abel. I just want to say, at this point, I was listening to the debate before I came in and the Hon David Parker just gave a very good summary of the concerns from the Labour Party, as did Rachel Brooking. What I\u2019ve been hearing is concern about where the money comes from and who\u2019s receiving it. So I\u2019m actually looking for new questions for the Minister now, because I think a lot of it\u2019s been summed up pretty well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe39f966dfd94e7ca21503d0dd36a312\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe39f966dfd94e7ca21503d0dd36a312\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair; however, I would say, yes, I absolutely hear you on that, and I have got new questions. The essential question on the excellent amendment from my colleague Rachel Brooking and a very similar amendment from my colleague Kahurangi Carter, which says \u201Cactivities relating to waste\u201D, adding in those words to make sure it\u2019s not just going to be used for anything, has not actually been addressed by the Minister. The Minister hasn\u2019t responded to whether that very sensible amendment is going to be supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe other question I\u2019ve got is\u2014the Minister speaks a lot about the waiving of criteria for the waste levy. Now, that is a bit of an alarm bell for us because it\u2019s right that it should be waived in exceptional circumstances, but the criteria on which it will be waived needs to be set out very clearly, because I think there is a risk that a large industrial waste producer would be getting favours and that the levy could be waived in the wrong instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to raise with the Minister is about the broadness of your comment on the whole of the waste generation process. The Minister talked about how all the way down the line of some sort of activity, there is generation of waste. My concern about that is the implication is that if you were demolishing an asbestos-laden building and some industry did it in a bad way and left the nuisance of remnant asbestos on that site, that the cost of cleaning that up\u2014and I\u2019m talking about a contemporary activity, not a historical one\u2014could then be covered by the waste levy rather than the assurance imposed in the consent process on that business to make sure they didn\u2019t create the nuisance in the first place and that they had imposed on them a requirement to clean it up if they did make that error. I think the Minister\u2019s explanation implies that the waste levy could be used to clean up the mess created by industries all the way down the line, including at the dumping stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI have another amendment to propose, which is tabled. It\u2019s in clause 9(1). The concern is that the levy could be used, for example, under the current wording, for the purpose of developing, operating, or maintaining a waste incineration facility or a waste-to-energy incineration plant. Under the current wording, Minister, it is not clear that that sort of an application could not be funded through the waste levy, so we propose simply to put in an exclusion clause in clause 9(1) so that no levy money may be used for the purpose of developing, operating, or maintaining a waste incineration plant\u2014that could, in fact, be brought into a waste incineration plant, including waste-to-energy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThat is something that the New Zealand public, and certainly the people of Waimate, who are currently trying to oppose a waste-to-energy plant down there, an incinerator, would not like to see their waste levy going towards. Waste incineration works against waste minimisation. Because waste incinerators are hungry beasts that want to be fed by waste, they actually function to disincentivise waste minimisation. It\u2019s a very good reason why waste incineration should be an activity that is not permitted to be funded through any sort of waste minimisation levy. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00224dedef4e5c3f4aa09f1bf543b55bc619\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dedef4e5c3f4aa09f1bf543b55bc619\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Can I just assure the member again that it is not the intention for the waste levy to be used to usurp any conditions or requirements that might be put in place by other legislation, such as the Resource Management Act. The member seems to be implying that that might happen, and can I assure him of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ECan I just say that the broadening of the scope of what the levy can be used for is very much a pragmatic solution to be able to achieve positive environmental benefits for all of us, and if we try and limit that too much, then we may lose the opportunity to fund some very important projects, and so it concerns me that the member might want to limit it to things like waste incineration and waste-to-energy plants\u2014over time, technology may change how these things are done. In fact, you may be wanting to constrain new and better technology that may be useful for environmental outcomes in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo I think that the constant refrain that is coming from the Opposition about wanting to narrow this down is taking a much too current focus on the innovative things that could be funded to enhance the environment, and I would just say that we need to be much more forward-looking and enabling in this amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u002271aa5360d59f450c9f592d19b4be5096\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271aa5360d59f450c9f592d19b4be5096\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for responding to the questions. I want to give a bit of a congratulations for increasing the levy. I think this is one of the limited good things about this bill. I also want to give a shout out to Labour for trying to claim a Green bill. Good on you, but no. Ha, ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EMy concern is along the lines of what many other members have expressed, with the widening of the application of the waste minimisation levy to apply to a range of other activities. I do want to just acknowledge that the Minister mentioned that she does not want to limit other innovation, but the precise question that Steve Abel asked was around the use of the levy to fund waste incineration, waste to energy\u2014which is actually badly named; it should be called energy to waste. That is something that we would like clarity on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThat is not my question. However, I would like the Minister to come back to answer that question. We do want to make sure that we are not using a waste levy to fund energy-to-waste incineration, which causes greater pollutants to enter our atmosphere, and toxic ash to be deposited in rural communities like Waimate and like Kaipara. We don\u2019t want to see a widened waste levy used to encourage waste and to force people\u2014truckloads of waste from the South Island descending on Waimate through rural roads and communities. We don\u2019t want to see that happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EMy primary question, however, is a little bit different. It is still related to communities\u2014particularly related to rural communities and particularly related to regional development. My question is, really: what impact will the widening of the application of the waste levy have on those M\u0101ori and community organisations that deal in waste, that help us reduce our waste, and that help build a circular economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019m thinking particularly of those exemplary organisations that are members of the Zero Waste Network. They are often run under a title of CRCs, which began in the day, standing for community resource centres, and then changed to community recycling centres and really have come to mean community resilience centres. They are funded out of using the levy to fund their work in the communities. But, of course, as we know\u2014and as the Greens keep on banging on about\u2014everything is connected. All of that work is connected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThis reflects back to clause 4 and clause 9. We really want to see what that effect is going to be, because these community organisations hold our communities together. There are four national networks, two of whom will be directly impacted by this change in use. That\u2019s the Zero Waste Network and Para Kore. They will be directly impacted by the widening and therefore the reduction in resources for those networks. This is really, really important because they are connected to the other two networks\u2014the Community Energy Network, who have had their funding cut, and the envirohubs network, who have had their funding cut. All of them work together\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022287ecf2495aa4882b4c9ec01f682b604\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So is the member\u2019s question \u201CWill these organisations be affected?\u201D, because we\u2019re looking for questions for the Minister\u2014because we hear the concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022518f19ddccce4f309a90a64c798cc369\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. No. My question is not specifically those organisations, but what is the impact on the community organisations that depend on doing the mahi to create a circular economy from the waste levy. That is fundamentally the question that I would like a response to. I have a host of others, but I particularly would like that question answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ETo just circle back, I also want an undertaking\u2014or more clarification\u2014on the question that Steve Abel asked about whether, in any way, shape, or form, the waste levy could possibly be used for incineration\u2014for energy-to-waste projects. This is something we want to avoid at all costs. So there are two questions there, please. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002259f6fa6677564894a0087ffa3066d77a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259f6fa6677564894a0087ffa3066d77a\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E A slightly unusual request\u2014because, of course, the levy is a contestable process with a very robust process that is not the Minister\u2019s involvement, so you\u2019re asking for some assurances about making sure certain entities will be funded through this. Certainly, there will be a contestable levy there. Entities will be able to apply for funding and go through the normal process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EGoing back to the waste-to-energy activities, this really relates to why we don\u2019t want to narrow down and say things would be excluded because of the changes in technology, because of the innovation in the future. There are current examples of waste-to-energy activities, such as anaerobic digestion, a lower odour solution to dealing with organic waste. By limiting the waste-to-energy options, we limit those innovations, those technology changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9b330580e6a40dcb61556d9a3d3b177\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9b330580e6a40dcb61556d9a3d3b177\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f10f49963fba4094a58d1bd9790dbc0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f10f49963fba4094a58d1bd9790dbc0b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to go to the Hon Rachel Brooking. I believe a lot of this conversation is becoming exhausted, and we are really looking for specific questions that are new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4c1b3bf748646508596ed1e3ef827c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4c1b3bf748646508596ed1e3ef827c7\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have been going through fairly much clause by clause, so now I\u2019m up to clause 11, and this is about new section 38A, criteria for funding management. Now, the Minister may, by notice in Gazette, set that criteria or change it, and then there are some issues about what the criteria may include, that I\u2019ll get to. But I\u2019m interested in the \u201Cmay\u201D in 38A, and if in fact this should be a compulsory \u201Cmust\u201D that the Minister should do to have this criteria, and we touched on the transitional provisions before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, of course, the criteria may include things relating to waste management infrastructure, limits on the funding costs, and identification, in relation to an emergency, of the things that are emergency waste and whose management will be funded. A little question about whose management will be funded, how that works in the context of that section. I presume it\u2019s the people who are there doing something in relation to an emergency that are managing something\u2014but it seems a curious wording; that is my point. It\u2019s not a policy position there, but if there could be some clarification on what that \u201Cwhose management\u201D means. And then, also, if the Minister has considered any risk of future events to be included in that criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s two questions: why is it discretionary, one; and, two, what does \u201Cwhose management\u201D mean? And, actually, three questions: has there been any consideration about future, likely events? And I\u2019m thinking here because we know that there are landfills in coastal areas. Is that the sort of thing that should be considered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe touched on, before, the role of local authorities, and we know\u2014as you\u2019ve said, Madam Chair, we\u2019ve well traversed the levy that is going to the Government, that the scope has been widened. But the levy that is going to local government, the scope hasn\u2019t been widened, and the Minister has noted that she might be doing some legislation in the future that could widen that local authority\u2019s scope to also include site remediation and emergencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI have an amendment that could do that now. So that would amend\u2014now, moving away from clause 11; that would insert a new clause 9A. And in section 32 of the primary legislation of the Act that we\u2019re amending, I\u2019ve put in there that Governments could spend on projects that provide for the remediation of contaminated sites and that could be expanded out to emergencies as well to match this amendment bill. So that could be done now and there\u2019s a tabled amendment doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing back to some other points, there was a discussion about how the previous Government hadn\u2019t changed the waste levy, and I\u2019d like confirmation from the Minister that her comment there was because the waste levy is normally set in regulations and the regulations were for a period that ended in this next period and that the Government\u2019s not changing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe next comment is that the Minister didn\u2019t answer my question in relation to section\u00A030. And if that should also include site contamination, the remediation of contaminated sites\u2014that seems to be missing from that section. And, also, we haven\u2019t heard yet that answer about why this expansion needs to apply to fertiliser. That is my precise question on\u2014going back to 4(2)(a), but also, as you\u2019ve heard some questions there about clause 11 and new section 38A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022e17fb542e01f47ab99103696d8009ca4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e17fb542e01f47ab99103696d8009ca4\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to take my first call in relation to the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. I want to specifically look at a particular part of the bill that\u2019s been touched on very briefly\u00A0by my colleague Rachel Brooking, and I want to expand on that more as one of my roles is to be the Labour Party\u2019s spokesperson on emergency management. A certain section of this bill is focused on emergency management and dealing with waste as a result of emergencies. So I wanted to, if I could, take the Minister for the Environment back to the\u00A0definition of \u201Cemergency\u201D in Part 1, which we\u2019re currently on, which is the same as what is currently in the primary piece of legislation, the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, I have checked that in advance of asking the Minister my question on this issue, and the definition of \u201Cemergency\u201D, essentially, in that primary piece of legislation is very wide. Essentially, if you go through the definition it\u2019s, basically, anything that happens whether natural or otherwise that results in a situation that can\u2019t be managed without the involvement of emergency services\u2014so an extremely wide definition. I wanted to ask the Minister if that was intentional or if it just was consistency within the Act\u2014if she did in fact want the scope to be widened so much to either be just consistent or so that the levy could be used in a wider sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe other question I wanted to ask was back to another part of new section 38A, inserted in the primary legislation by clause 11 of the bill, which I don\u2019t think we have touched on, which is paragraph (b) of section 38A(3). This is the criteria that the Minister will use and must look at before considering funding \u201Cmanagement of emergency waste and repair or replacement of waste management and minimisation infrastructure\u201D. Now, one section that we haven\u2019t touched on is the section on what other matters the Minister may consider relevant to that. So there is a list there that the Minister must consider, but then paragraph (b) of section 38A(3), there, essentially, means that Minister can look at anything that the Minister may think is relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I wanted to know: what are those other things that might be relevant to justify the inclusion of such a wide clause? Was that purposeful in the sense that the Minister wanted to think widely? She\u2019s made some comments in relation to other sections\u2014but not, I think, this section; but I\u2019m willing to be corrected on that\u2014that she wanted to, obviously, have a wider criteria. But it seems very open there and I just wanted to know: has she received any\u00A0specific advice about the types of other things that may be considered when the Minister sets that criteria? Because this is a criteria that can be set, once this legislation is passed, by the Minister alone. I think it\u2019s important to have some clarity on that before moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAlso, I\u2019m not sure if we\u2019ve touched that much on Schedule 1, which I understand is part of this debate on Part 1. I think that it\u2019s important for the Minister, really, to look at these transitional provisions and just say, you know, for example, why was the date of 1 January 2025 considered as part of that schedule? Was that because of any particular reason, or did it just happen to be decided that next year was a good time to start it? Did she consider introducing the particular schedule provisions earlier or not? It\u2019s a question I have, and I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve touched on that schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022782d328c60864d2ba1ddeff2c6a4dd31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022782d328c60864d2ba1ddeff2c6a4dd31\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Moving back to the questions from the Hon Rachel Brooking around her concern about whose management the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill is talking about in clause 11, which inserts section 38A(2)(c)\u2014and that then relates to the question that has just been asked by the member sitting down, Camilla Belich\u2014the subsection there is the \u201Cidentification, in relation to an emergency, of things that are emergency waste, and whose management will be funded.\u201D The management is referring to the emergency waste, and the reason why the definition of \u201Cemergency\u201D in here has the same meaning as in section 4 of the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act is that we are intending specifically that the levy can be used for waste that is created in an emergency situation\u2014a flood, an earthquake\u2014where the disposal of that waste needs to occur quickly, given the impact that it can have on human health and the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022a439fd5ca8554e4e8a897822a5d29597\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a439fd5ca8554e4e8a897822a5d29597\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed213b5992514292926e01b07d288370\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed213b5992514292926e01b07d288370\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to members, I will take another call. Just be aware: I have been watching this and I\u2019m aware of the previous Chair\u2014the warning she\u2019s given. So I\u2019m well aware of the need for new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00222aafb60920914852b21a60b62843a6ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aafb60920914852b21a60b62843a6ef\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, sir. Thank you very much, I appreciate that guidance. Just wanting some clarification from you, however. Since the previous presiding officer indicated to the committee that she was seeking new material, I\u2019m of the view that the two subsequent calls were new material. So to then receive that guidance from you is somewhat confusing. So could you please confirm or clarify to the committee, in your view, whether the previous two calls did fit the criteria that you\u2019re after?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261e3fe429a49435489e26ee8120c1c0c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just nothing wrong with a little reassurance for the committee and that, yes, I\u2019m aware that there was some new material in there\u2014now, of course, being dealt with by the Minister, so it\u2019s no longer new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1048a22a7184062891c488c4e46138d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1048a22a7184062891c488c4e46138d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. Since my first contribution was not addressed by the Minister with particularity as to the effect of these new clauses, I went and printed off the relevant parts of the original Act and I still would like the Minister\u2014and actually members on the other side\u2014to actually read the changes in the section. There\u2019s some good lawyers on the other side. This is not hard. We\u2019re sitting under urgency. This is meant to be a meaningful committee stage where if there are problems in legislation, we fix them because if we don\u2019t fix them there\u2019s no select committee process to fix them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to take the Minister in particular to clause 4 of the bill, which amends section 3 of the Act. Now, section 3 of the Act\u2014and other members there can go on their devices; it\u2019s very short\u2014currently, it\u2019s the purpose of the Act and it says the purpose of the Act currently is to \u201C(a) protect the environment from harm; and (b) provide environmental, social, economic, and cultural benefits.\u201D It\u2019s all under the first subsection; section 3(1) says, \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to encourage waste minimisation and a decrease in waste disposal \u2026\u201D. The new purpose section is different. It says that the purpose is to \u201Craise revenue to fund\u2014(i) the promotion and achievement of waste minimisation;\u201D which is a bit like the original purpose; and \u201C(ii) activities that reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits;\u201D, and that\u2019s not tied or limited to solid waste or contaminants from solid waste. That is the issue that is so simple to be fixed and yet the Government won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, I would like the Minister to stand and explain to the committee how we are to interpret new section 3(2)(a)(ii), inserted by clause 4 of this bill, which reads \u201C[activity to] reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits\u201D, and explain to the committee how that is not inclusive of things more than solid waste. Because it plainly is, and it plainly\u2014look, there\u2019s a lawyer there from Queenstown. Look, he knows this; he knows this. He\u2019s a clever lawyer. So are some other people there. We\u2019re not all draftspeople in this House, but there\u2019s enough of us to know that that clause there reads wider than solid waste and therefore this is enabling the Waste Minimisation Fund\u2014now we\u2019ve got someone on the other side saying, \u201Chands down\u201D. This is the emotion\u2014just copying what they\u2019re doing. \u201CCalm down. Nothing to worry about here. No need to do anything. No need to fix anything. We\u2019re not under urgency. We just want to go home.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWell, you will go home faster if you pay attention to this and fix this obvious mistake in clause 4 by adding the words \u201Cfrom waste\u201D. That\u2019s all we\u2019re asking to do so that this can\u2019t be used for issues other than waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022b11f54ee9d7d49c3a811036c42f99b48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b11f54ee9d7d49c3a811036c42f99b48\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I will go over the matters that we have already discussed around this broadening to environmental harm and environmental benefits. Given that any resources that we use at any time have a broad impact on the environment from when they are extracted, grown, taken out of the ground, whatever, to create those resources; through to the manufacture of those resources; through to the use of those resources; and the final disposal of those resources. That product, as it goes through its cycle and becomes waste when it is disposed of, that is an appropriate time to extract a levy and enable that levy to be applied to any of the environmental impacts that occur through the life cycle of that product.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022934192b6c3954dc4b8e285bfbd82c218\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022934192b6c3954dc4b8e285bfbd82c218\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I also thank the Minister for being so engaged. This bill is hugely important because it\u2019s being put through under urgency when it\u2019s only tangentially related to the Budget and would normally go to a select committee, hence all of these questions around waste. If I may, I would like to point\u00A0out a couple of things in clause 4 that haven\u2019t really been touched on, and this is in relation to the supplementary analysis report, which has to be done because of urgency, and a regulatory impact statement could not have been done, and there is a lot of concern around this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo one of things that hasn\u2019t really been explored in all of the discussions that we had this morning is around clause 4(2)(a)(iv), which is around the ministry. We have talked about different budgets, and I really appreciate the fact that the Minister has talked about different uses as well. But I would like to know, from a Budget perspective, with the deficit that is being created as a result of a reduced funding in Vote Environment, whether we are expecting proportionally that the amount of money that is created as part of that deficit in Vote Environment is going to be coming out of this waste levy\u2014as in, the money that wasn\u2019t funded in Vote Environment; are we expecting that same amount to come out of the levy? Because, specifically, this broadens to the fact that the ministry will be using this funding to undertake its functions and duties and exercise its power in relation to waste management, but it\u2019s still something that would normally have been covered in a Budget. So that is my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question is around clause 4(2)(a)(iii) around emergency management. Now, Minister, you mentioned before the type of things, and, Mr Chair, just before, the Minister mentioned emergency uses, and I think that in the second reading and the first reading we talked about the fact that it could be used for, like, Cyclone Gabrielle and the clean-up. So all of those are considered as waste. I would like to know from the Minister\u2014the Minister spoke on other applicable funds\u2014how this fund is going to interact with the Climate Emergency Response Fund, which is being partially used for things like climate adaptation and cleaning up of this waste\u2014before we see that the Minister has retracted the transparency in the reporting of the Climate Emergency Response Fund as of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo it will be really good to know from the Minister in terms of the interaction between the use of the waste levy on emergency management and also the interaction with the Climate Emergency Response Fund, which was started under the Hon James Shaw, the previous climate change Minister. So those are my two questions from clause 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow to clause 5, we talked about\u2014and the Hon David Parker talked about\u2014waste and solids and all of that. I would like to get a piece of clarification from the Minister because, again, this bill may seem quite small, but it has huge implications also from a judiciary perspective. So it\u2019s also really important when we\u2019re looking at the Hansard, when lawyers are looking at this and at any sort of potential use, that the definition is really tight and we have an understanding from the Minister of what those definitions could be used for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe specific one that I\u2019m looking at is the definition of \u201Ccontaminated site\u201D; it means land \u201Cwhere a contaminant is present, or likely to be present,\u201D. In paragraph (a) of amended section 5\u2014this is in clause 5\u2014it says \u201Cin any physical state\u201D\u2014which I\u2019m assuming relates to the definition of \u201Ccontaminant\u201D, which means a substance including gases, odours, compounds, liquids, solids, and micro-organisms. I\u2019m assuming that \u201Cin any physical state\u201D will also be referring to those substances. However, my key focus is on the word \u201Cland\u201D. Now, my colleague Steve Abel mentioned run-off and the pollution we see in our waterways. I would like to ask the Minister whether things like rivers and waterways are considered \u201Cland\u201D, in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo those are my three questions, and I really appreciate this opportunity for us to discuss more broadly in lieu of the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022131df9591dd34e0a84c0692352337aa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022131df9591dd34e0a84c0692352337aa8\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just going to take a very short call here because it does relate to what the Minister just said. The Minister was talking about the clause that we\u2019ve spoken a lot about, which is the activities that reduce environmental harms\u2014I think these are your words, Minister; apologies if they\u2019re not quite right\u2014that occur through the life of a product. The point was being made again that waste has many lives. So I would really implore the Minister to consider an amendment\u2014doesn\u2019t have to be the one that I put up being caused by waste\u2014that it could be then \u201Cactivities that reduce environmental harm related to the life of a product\u201D, to use the Minister\u2019s words. So a very short call. If this is what the Minister means then we should say it in the legislation, and that would make a lot of us a lot more comfortable about these changes. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00224460350afd4a4f17a1bff380075f51df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224460350afd4a4f17a1bff380075f51df\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Relating to that, and also the question from the Hon David Parker\u2014just noting that already in the rest of the Act, there is wider scope than solid waste; for example, the declaration of refrigeration gases as a priority product. So we just need to be very careful that what you are asking for in terms of narrowing down doesn\u2019t actually conflict with what is already within the rest of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u002239cfadae61f0432598fa564ad90c8e92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239cfadae61f0432598fa564ad90c8e92\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00222ad02f6b77184518aba022b5cbb2b961\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ad02f6b77184518aba022b5cbb2b961\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I appreciate that. This is the first opportunity I\u2019ve had to make a call on this, and, actually, in all honesty, I wasn\u2019t intending to. But then I heard the Minister\u2019s response regarding the definition of an emergency, and I thought that it\u2019s important that we dive into this. So I\u2019m not going to ask the same question, albeit the same topic that has been touched on once previously, but this is directly in response to the answer that the Minister gave. Camilla Belich asked about the definition of \u201Cemergency\u201D, and the Minister responded by saying that it is as is defined in the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act 2002. Now, as the committee knows, there was an emergency management bill going through the House, and, at the time, the National Party did not express any opposition at all to the updated definition that was provided in that Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, we might be wondering why this is important. Well, there\u2019s one difference in the definition between that provided in the 2002 Act, and the definition proposed in the 2023 bill\u2014and it\u2019s quite a significant difference. It includes the addition of \u201Cpandemic\u201D to the definition of \u201Cemergency\u201D. Now, if we are to proceed with this, using the definition as provided in the Act in 2002, which will exclude a pandemic, given what this country\u2019s been through during COVID, if we have another pandemic, under the current definition proposed in this bill, a pandemic will not qualify under the definition of \u201Cemergency\u201D. Now, I think that\u2019s quite serious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to respond as to whether she would be willing, either through an amendment under our name or simply to do so herself, to simply include \u201Cpandemic\u201D in the definition of \u201Cemergency\u201D. What we don\u2019t want is for another pandemic to come along, given all the lessons that we as a country learnt through COVID, and all the changes to bills and Acts that have been made, and regulation, to account for a future pandemic, and then everything in this bill cannot be triggered because it doesn\u2019t include it in the definition of \u201Cemergency\u201D. It\u2019s a genuine request and I\u2019d really like to hear what the Minister has to say about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8c9f40685db4b9b924c6fc0f93ab70e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8c9f40685db4b9b924c6fc0f93ab70e\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E It is very deliberate that \u201Cemergency\u201D is being given the same meaning as in section 4 of the Civil Defence (Emergency Management) Act 2002. The volume and the significant risks to human and environmental health from waste that is created from a flood or an earthquake, I would suggest, is very different from waste created from a pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u002273769cbdeff54974876cbf08fc1ea78a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273769cbdeff54974876cbf08fc1ea78a\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a68565f709624e48a28f3199583f3ecb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a68565f709624e48a28f3199583f3ecb\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m really grateful that I\u2019ve got to receive my first call on the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. I apologise to my colleague right here, Glen Bennett, who is also waiting for a call on this bill, because he\u2019s actually on the Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister for the Environment is actually around some of the transitional and savings provisions which are in Schedule 1 of Part 1. This is a new point, because this bill, if I step through it, looks to expand the purpose of the waste levy. It also looks around some waiver provisions, and the transitional savings provisions only refer to the consideration of criteria for approval of projects to remediate contaminated sites and the use of levy collected before the commencement of the amendment Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENow, members of this committee will remember that, in early January last year and on Valentine\u2019s Day, we had two major natural disasters in New Zealand. We had the floods in Auckland, and then we had the cyclone that went through Hawke\u2019s Bay and also parts of Northland. As part of the response to that, there were a number of Orders in Council that were put through to deal with that emergency event, including one called the Severe Weather Emergency Recovery (Waste Minimisation) Order 2023. That particular order gave an exemption from levy payments on cyclone and flood waste. That exemption keeps the operator exempt from requirements under Part 3 of the Act, which this bill is changing, to pay for the levy referred to in that part in relation to cyclone and flood waste before the close of 24 July 2025. So that\u2019s the date that that particular order closes. That\u2019s when that order is no longer in force. But I don\u2019t see anything in this particular bill or the regulatory impact statement that provides a savings provision\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf9789c4d4f34b1e88699458fc95176f\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec35e5f10db04ab0b3fa3235d6aab4b9\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, there is none\u2014that\u2019s why I couldn\u2019t find it. Is that particular order, which was given and put through under the previous Act, which this bill is now changing, still in force\u2014because it refers to the old Part 3. Once this bill is enacted, there is a new Part 3. Will this bill still allow those people, because of the cyclone and flood waste, to be exempt from the levy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe second part of that question is: if not, does that mean that the increase that comes into force by this bill, by July 2024\u2014even though that exemption from the Severe Weather Emergency Recovery (Waste Minimisation) Order doesn\u2019t actually close till next year, in June? Does that mean that there is an increase then and they have to pay that increase? They are exempt from the old charges, but when these new charges come in, in July this year, it means they actually have to pay those new increases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAs the Minister is receiving official advice, I\u2019ll step through that again. Last year, floods, cyclone\u2014as a part of the emergency response, there were a number of Orders in Council that were released, including one called the Severe Weather Emergency Recovery (Waste Minimisation) Order 2023. That has a sunset clause for 24 July 2025. So, basically, people who need to dispose of cyclone- and flood-related waste are exempt from the waste levy up to 24 July 2025. My question is\u2014because I couldn\u2019t see a savings provision\u2014actually whether there needed to be one, first of all. Second of all, if this bill comes into force, will that exemption only apply for the old charges, not the new charges, which are coming under this bill, given that the order doesn\u2019t actually have a sunset clause until 24 July 2025?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec8427f6a2784a67affa29b5a69c4cb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec8427f6a2784a67affa29b5a69c4cb6\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll have to get further information for the member the Hon Barbara Edmonds on the Orders in Council, but can I just bring to the member\u2019s attention that the amendments in here enable a waiver of the levy fees for local authorities for remediation work. So there is the ability for that waiver to be granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002251f1c78df41b4c85baa05025959508c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251f1c78df41b4c85baa05025959508c2\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you so much. As a member of the Environment Committee, I felt it was important\u2014I\u2019ve been seeking the call for almost 2\u00BD hours now, and it is important for myself and, I know, others in the Environment Committee here\u2014for us too to, I guess, prosecute this, because we didn\u2019t have the opportunity to do it in select committee. So it is good to be here and to be standing. I really appreciate contributions from the honourable Minister. And I\u2019ve been reflecting, actually, and my question is related to your electorate, honourable Minister, because I know that, for you, there are some real challenges and there are some real challenges in terms of waste. Obviously, you have some big industry and some big business. You look at T\u012Bwai Point, which everyone knows, but you also have some good opportunities there, which is what I want to, I guess, prosecute today. You\u2019ve got the SJ Timpany Landfill, which obviously is making good on dealing with industrial waste and waste that needs to be rid of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EMy colleague Camilla Belich and the Hon Kieran McAnulty have talked about the emergency management space, but I need to take a different angle on this, because I still haven\u2019t quite got it clear. And just to support, I guess, making sure again we get this right, because, as many on this side have said, we need to make sure, if this is going to pass, that we actually have it right so that when the next emergency happens it is fit for purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, I want to reflect, because it happened several times back in March and April, Tuat\u0101pere, which, obviously\u2014is that part of your electorate? I\u2019m not sure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a162fb26dc4817a8f8399deb6dbfa6\u0022\u003EHon Penny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: It is indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022231b975554a84e549884836c04f5f62d\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but it\u2019s close by.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c725a8bbed1b460bb049ad221e3391f6\u0022\u003EHon Penny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242d951768a6a4a4dbf0c30bfb19194a5\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is in your electorate. And obviously there\u2019s been a huge issue there in terms of contamination with products that have been buried, have been put away\u2014things like explosives, asbestos, and hazardous materials there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, in amended section 5, and the emergency having the same meaning as the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act\u2014the thing is that the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act talks about leakage or spilling of any dangerous gas or substance. Now, the thing is this is an ongoing issue. And at Tuat\u0101pere this is an ongoing challenge that they have. Is it an emergency or is it just an ongoing issue because of climate change and because of sea levels taking away from that? So I\u2019m trying to understand in terms of where this is and where it fits in in section 5, but also, of course, in new section 38A. Because earlier when you spoke to us, you mentioned that section 38A(2)(c)\u2014you talked about referring completely to emergency waste. But obviously the waste at Tuat\u0101pere is, in my mind, both emergency and is just ongoing issues that need to be dealt with in terms of remediation and how that works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe other one I want to acknowledge as we come around, obviously, is Bluecliffs in your electorate. And congratulations. You got some good money from the Government earlier in the year\u2014$1.35 million towards the Bluecliffs landfill clean-up. And again, the challenge is because we talk about pandemics and where that fits in, we talk about climate change, we\u2019ve obviously spent a lot of time\u2014and people might think it is repetitive, but I think it\u2019s really crucial because why not spend another hour here, why not spend another couple of hours here to get this tight, to get this right, because we don\u2019t want to be scrambling when the next earthquake, when the next sea-level rise, when the next storm comes through, and it actually isn\u2019t fit for purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EYep, the other side of the Chamber are moaning at us and saying we\u2019re just dragging it out, but it\u2019s actually not on us; it\u2019s on your bosses in terms of they should have thought through this in terms of making sure that they got it right before they brought it to the House, or at least they took it to select committee. So, coming back to the question, it\u2019s around section 5, \u201Cemergency has the same meaning as in section 4 of the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act 2002\u201D. Again, a leakage or spillage emergency or the leakage or spillage which is just continuing as a regular part because, obviously, of past wrongs that were done and not remediata\u2014remeni\u2014remediating. I can\u2019t even say the word on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo that is my question to the Minister. I appreciate you spending time to thoughtfully consider it. Congratulations on what you\u2019re doing in your electorate to clean up parts of your electorate, and I look forward to your answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00223afdfb8db1a241c28ff4adb7c6310a84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223afdfb8db1a241c28ff4adb7c6310a84\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E There is a danger in quoting examples from the electorate that the Minister is in. Can I let the member know that the Tuat\u0101pere and Bluecliffs entity is one and the same, and that no explosives were in that site, but it was, indeed, a vulnerable site\u2014one of a number that received over $6.6 million of funding. That was the Southland site, the South Canterbury one, Nelson, and Tai R\u0101whiti. And I have indicated that dealing with these sites will be a priority for me. This legislation, this bill, enables those vulnerable and contaminated sites to be funded. And I have stated it as a priority that they will gain more funding. The local authorities also will benefit from being able to have their levies waived from undertaking these remediations. So the bill in fact supports, enormously, addressing these contaminated and vulnerable sites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b90ca41bc23e4161839d8f8ab6400bf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b90ca41bc23e4161839d8f8ab6400bf9\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00220828988464ae45b7925f2c53b6a5b152\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220828988464ae45b7925f2c53b6a5b152\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate it. I got an email late last night from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248cc812ff305483d89acef8bd51d43a2\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: From the Labour Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022588dd9643767410e94145eb189586232\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: It didn\u2019t happen to be, but from a gentleman who is in the environmental advocacy space, a guy by the name of Barry Weeber who works for ECO. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, in lieu of a select committee\u2014it\u2019s not a very long email, but he makes some very good recommendations\u2014given he won\u2019t have any right, nor will any member of the public have any right to submit on this, I thought it might be useful for the Minister to ask some of the questions that he puts. \u201CI just happen to realise when I opened the Parliament website and found the waste minimisation bill is going through Parliament. I can\u2019t fathom why this bill has to go through all stages under urgency. I agree with the comments\u201D\u2014and I won\u2019t repeat them, because we\u2019ve canvassed them, about the waste levy activities that reduce environmental harm being too broad. He says, \u201CAll these go way beyond the reason that the waste levy was established.\u201D He also makes a very specific point on section 38A \u201Cthe use of the word \u2018may\u2019 (2) should be \u2018shall\u2019 in both places. It is also a bit rich\u201D\u2014he goes on\u2014\u201Cnot levying current mining operations for cleaning up contaminated mine waste sites.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThat is a question for the Minister. It has been asked but it has not been answered. Is it not more appropriate? Why should those dumping construction and demolition fill be paying for mine waste clean-up? That\u2019s a question for the Minister. Why are those who are creating tailings dams, cyanide-laden tailings dams, not being charged a levy for clean-up of contaminated mine waste? That is another question for the Minister.  He concludes with \u201CI hope you have some success to change this.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EAnd my final question is: are there amendments that the Minister will seriously consider, or has a decision been made by the coalition Government that they will not accept any amendments on this waste minimisation bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u00223d49b0d37ed943adac33b10f6aa82d57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d49b0d37ed943adac33b10f6aa82d57\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022106495c3d24e45bd9ef65500f4e2cb71\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224a664da0544b468dae114124e19949ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a664da0544b468dae114124e19949ba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Kahurangi Carter\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022065f49778c93489caf4b8661703f6145\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0bbea3d42a74a6288b7cebdc93a8e04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0bbea3d42a74a6288b7cebdc93a8e04\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s tabled amendments to clauses 4 and 9, replacing \u201Cor increase environmental benefits\u201D with \u201Ccaused by waste\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223fc0aedfac2d445da01d510428b27e1e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022498d0e11fb754e38b57d6575ccfbd894\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022498d0e11fb754e38b57d6575ccfbd894\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Reuben Davidson\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, replacing \u201Csociety\u201D with \u201Ccommunity\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002211feda58ac4c4584a12d19d45a344e06\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002280a487445bca492190893e60a11897e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280a487445bca492190893e60a11897e5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s tabled amendments to Part 1, changing the scope of activities funded by the waste disposal levy to include remediation of contaminated sites, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eae0ce21ddfd4afab73d902b202690dd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022493eee3ce4224ea2b236603f1c147bab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022493eee3ce4224ea2b236603f1c147bab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendments to clauses 9 and 10 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223762af6a7c9e423a8d778227226c42e5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d51fdc7652844c2f928b9032e9d2988d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfa0c82e3a474ad29cbd52191ef8cc1b\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendment to Waste Minimisation (Calculation and Payment of Waste Disposal Levy) Regulations 2009 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227cb1704237d0407fa009826abfee50aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cb1704237d0407fa009826abfee50aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is debate on clauses 13 and 14, \u201CAmendment to Waste Minimisation (Calculation and Payment of Waste Disposal Levy) Regulations 2009\u201D, and Schedule 2. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a01155d409104c7ca839faf538205372\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a01155d409104c7ca839faf538205372\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to explain to the Minister, because I suspect she doesn\u2019t know the history, how we\u2019ve got to where we have in respect of levies on solid waste. The waste minimisation legislation was brought into being as a consequence of an initiative by the Greens\u2019 Nandor Tanczos and the Helen Clark - led Labour Government. The Government took over his member\u2019s bill, and the Waste Minimisation Act was passed. At the time, the levy was set at $10 per tonne of waste going into municipal class 1 landfills and none of the others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere was a change of Government, and the subsequent John Key - led Government did nothing to extend the scope of it to other landfills or to increase the levy beyond $10. The Jacinda Ardern -led Government came in. Eugenie Sage was the Minister\u2014a good Minister\u2014and Local Government New Zealand (LGNZ) had passed a resolution saying they lacked the money to build the infrastructure needed to reduce waste going to landfill, and New Zealand has amongst the highest per capita levels of waste going to landfill in the world. It was a shameful position that New Zealand was in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo Eugenie Sage came to me, as the then Minister for the Environment\u2014I was the Minister, she was the Associate Minister\u2014and said that we should do something about it. I took it to Winston Peters, and Winston Peters said, \u201CLet\u2019s do this properly. Let\u2019s not just tamper with this; let\u2019s do it properly.\u201D Therefore, as a consequence, the breadth of landfills covered was increased, as set out on the back page of the bill\u2014Schedule 2, which is being updated here\u2014so that construction waste landfills and other solid landfills pay a lower rate, but actually still higher than the $10 that was applying to municipal waste at the time, and, on the back of the LGNZ resolution from local government, we thought, \u201CWe can carry this, and we can maintain a social and political consensus that this needs to be done.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe then proposed increases that have, effectively, increased this levy already by about 600 percent. Who can ever achieve that? You\u2019d think, \u201CHow was that achieved\u2014how was that achieved?\u201D Well, Minister, this was achieved by political and social consensus. How was that achieved? Scott Macindoe knows how this was achieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a41277a267f64aa799ae9f06b196f771\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Who? Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42ad88c42f847a084e328ca8dac99ee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Scott Simpson, sorry\u2014Scott Simpson. Sorry, Scott. I went to the Hon Scott Simpson, and I said, \u201CLet\u2019s not politicise this, and we can do this and meet the need, and at least one area of environmental policy will be reasonably well funded to clean up the mess that we as humans have inflicted on our corner of this planet.\u201D It\u2019s worse than just about any other corner of the planet, in terms of volume. Our dumps have managed a lot better than a lot of other countries, but there\u2019s still a lot in them. So I went to Scott. I then played all the other angles. You know, one of the reasons why National doesn\u2019t play up on the waste management space is that the Prime Minister\u2019s brother is very senior in the waste management industry\u2014and he\u2019s a good man. He\u2019s a good man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhen there was more money coming into the Waste Minimisation Fund, one of the things we funded was a million-dollar machine that\u2019s in Auckland, in the private sector and, in part, funded by Government money, to chop up computer screens and old TVs. It\u2019s an incredible thing. It chops the glass and the plastic up into small parts. It has all these optical sorters and uses air to flick off these little pieces that are about a couple of centimetres out. It sorts them into all of the different components\u2014a fantastic thing. Those things used to go to landfill. They are now, through the Waste Minimisation Fund, sorted, and those bulk remainder materials are re-exported to the rest of the world, and they\u2019re reused rather than ending up in New Zealand landfill\u2014smart policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister\u2019s brother\u2014or it might be his brother-in-law\u2014was there, and I went to him, and I said, \u201CLook, we\u2019re doing this. We\u2019ve got Local Government New Zealand on our side. We\u2019ve got a political consensus, and that\u2019s always a hard thing to achieve in respect of significant fee increases, even though local government is calling out for them. Can you just have a whisper in his ear and make sure he doesn\u2019t ruin this, please?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e40f5d624c87446098b3f4ab66ee04bc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Parker, just, families\u2014I\u2019m aware you\u2019re being positive, but let\u2019s just stick to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225de8df7509744451bc4782d69b0d335e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not improperly bringing in a family. This is a positive story. This is how soft politics works in New Zealand, and this is how you achieve real, enduring change. I\u2019m grateful to him, and I\u2019m grateful to all of the other parties\u2014New Zealand First, the ACT Party, the Green Party\u2014who have cooperated in this so that we\u2019ve achieved this. Now, who does the money come from? It comes out of the pockets of the businesses and the people who send stuff to the dump. That\u2019s who\u2019s paying for this, and so you\u2019ve got to be very careful to maintain this consensus, rather than hiving off the money for things that it wasn\u2019t originally meant for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo my problem with this change to the Schedule is\u2014I want the Minister to stand up and justify how money coming out of Wellington City or any other city can be used for cleaning up mines on the West Coast or river pollution, which is now within the route that could have been caused by\u2014and I see the ACT member, the Associate Minister for the Environment, here. It could be utilised for those purposes, those other funding lines having been scrapped. That puts at risk this social consensus that we\u2019ve managed to achieve to actually get the revenue for the infrastructure, in this infrastructure-short country where local government can\u2019t pay for their share of the infrastructure. This puts at risk that consensus that\u2019s led to this enormously successful scheme doing what it needs to do to minimise waste. So, Minister, I actually don\u2019t oppose these increases. What I oppose is that you\u2019re putting at risk the consensus that lies behind this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFor some local governments, it\u2019s been hard for them too. So how, Minister, do you justify these increases in fees going for management of what was not previously within the ambit of the legislation? Essentially, before this, it was solid waste, and, sure, we\u2019re up for\u00A0legacy landfills and we\u2019re up for the policy work for product stewardship schemes, as I explained in an earlier part of this debate. But why would you put at risk that consensus, which has been so carefully arranged in the manner which I have described? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdbb576a676448a48d75c312f77e4daa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdbb576a676448a48d75c312f77e4daa\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I had a very excellent experience some many years ago in my capacity as political liaison for Greenpeace where I would attend the Bluegreens conferences, which are excellent, I have to say, often. One of the more impressive ones was where it was held in Raglan\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a25ff4e7f7e4d58adc1d2d54f87cda4\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: I was there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cdc6cd013a848ab8957bdc90600f3a9\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: You were there. Scott Simpson was there. A lot of people were there. We were taken to the very excellent Xtreme Zero Waste facility in Raglan, where they are diverting, I think, around 90 percent of waste from going to landfill\u2014incredible recycling, a dump shop, and great composting facility. That is the sort of innovation, improving of what is possible with waste, that should be being funded by a levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWe support a waste levy. We support an increase in the waste levy, and I believe my colleague Kahurangi Carter will speak to how much that increase should be. It should, in fact, be greater than what is being proposed. But, as Led Zeppelin say, if the levee breaks, we\u2019ll have no place to stay. What this legislation does by its allocation\u2014that seemed to be a very in-joke that no one got!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022420aa3942042444d855546baabcd0c6c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We were laughing within, Mr Abel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280e79d4f56d54952bb4b76021a750416\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I appreciate that, Mr Chair. With this allocation of that levy to things beyond the purpose for which the Waste Minimisation Act was originally set up\u2014with the allocation of that levy to other things\u2014it will be literally frittered away on things that are not to do with waste minimisation. So on the one hand, you\u2019re increasing the levy, but on the other hand you\u2019re vastly broadening the category of things that it can be spent on. Therefore, the increase, at $5 a year, is barely beyond the increase in interest. It barely stays ahead of interest rate increases at $5 a year. It needs to be more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe impact of it being allocated to so many other purposes is that it is near nominal. In fact, you may well find\u2014because 50 percent of it is going to go to councils, as it should, but that 50 percent that is open to the discretion to be spent on other things, such as remediating mine sights\u2014suddenly, that we may even get less money spent on waste minimisation, because the category is so broad for how it can be spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo we submit that the levy should be greater for the categories of waste \u201Cconstruction and demolition fill\u201D and \u201Cmanaged or controlled fill disposal\u201D. It should be greater than a $5 increase\u2014and my colleague Kahurangi Carter will speak to the exact dollar amount. But we should not increase the municipal disposal rate more, because it is not fair that general members of the public, who are disposing of their municipal waste, should be being pinged for the cost of cleaning up a mine site, as this legislation currently proposes to do. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002248c122dcbfeb4647a7a598da8fc05a76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248c122dcbfeb4647a7a598da8fc05a76\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very mindful that we traversed the broader scope of the bill in Part 1, but I note also that the Green Party would like a much greater increase in the levy rates. We on this side are very careful about the impact of any increases on the cost of living crisis that businesses are dealing with and not wanting to also impose significant costs on to the building and construction sector in a housing crisis. So we are happy with the rates as they stand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ECan I just note\u2014because the member is so fixated on mining\u2014that mines have remediation as part of their conditions under the Resource Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227cd151739b2f41e0bb7be26101f457e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cd151739b2f41e0bb7be26101f457e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just note that we\u2019ve had two very good speeches that have gone a little beyond but have provided good context. But from here on we\u2019ll be reminding members of the relatively narrow focus of this Part. The Hon\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9fa37a2dd0c4cb592584a70fefc5217\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022831d1362f882467c8e8412116118c900\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc23ccbc02704b39aebd7ca9a1c9f62f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc23ccbc02704b39aebd7ca9a1c9f62f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s much easier for us. You just have the simple name, and often we all call you \u201CMadam\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ebdb1977f484e2daaaa63663674f1e9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Quid pro quo!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211f5d49bb54d4bf698896504926a3867\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, exactly! So we\u2019re talking here about how Schedule 2 sets the levied rates. These are actually in regulation. They are being amended here in the primary legislation. It\u2019s not necessary, but the regulation does run out in June 2025, so I understand the logic of putting it in the primary legislation. So that first column on the table is as per the current regulations; there\u2019s no change to that. Then we see it does go up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGiven the speeches that we\u2019ve had, I wonder if the Minister has thought of adding different disposal facilities\u2014we\u2019re not even calling them \u201Cdisposal facilities\u201D\u2014or considered levying, say, mine sites. That could be included here, somehow. I know she just mentioned the Resource Management Act and conditions of that, but, of course, that only applies to recently consented things, or newly consented issues rather than older ones, unless it\u2019s been reviewed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing from David Parker\u2019s point about social consensus\u2014and I note that the Environmental Defence Society has a conference coming up, and often there are conversations amongst members about these issues at those. I can\u2019t comment on a Bluegreens conference, because I\u2019ve never been to one of those. Noting the Greens\u2019 amendment here, in the name of Kahurangi Carter, that does really make these levies a lot bigger. Has there been much work into considering how much they should be raised by, given that it\u2019s an amendment to regulations normally? Would the Minister commit to talking with other parties about what those levies should be via regulation? Is that something she might want to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy last question is, really: why is this bill here under Budget urgency? Is the only reason because the Government is going to rely on this fund for things that go well outside of waste? The legislation already goes, via regulation, to 30 June 2025. The supplementary analysis report talks of the extra $171 million generated over the next four years. I mean, that is my question. Are we in urgency here on a Saturday lunchtime because the Government is relying on that $171 million, or are there other ways to do\u00A0this, and could we, in fact, send this bill to a select committee and have the discussion that we would have in the select committee? I know the levies are normally done in regulations, but this is a useful discussion to have about what they should be and where that social consensus is for them, and I invite the Minister to make some comment and commitments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022445ba570890645429b26d8a36de43526\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022445ba570890645429b26d8a36de43526\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. It\u2019s my second time rising and, yeah, it is a challenge to listen. I want to come back to the Minister. My first question, actually, is a really simple one, related to the Hon David Parker. He did ask you a question and I would really like to hear the answer to that. But I think it was around consensus. You know, he obviously gave a really good history and a good story about how this came about, but for us here in the Labour Party, it would be nice to know\u2014and I guess it follows up on Rachel Brooking\u2019s question around why we\u2019re doing this in urgency. So I wonder whether I could have an answer from the Minister around how she could consider consensus on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAnd, secondly, which I guess is totally related in terms of why it is in urgency\u2014in Part\u00A02 here, as we look at the \u201CAmendment to Waste Minimalisation (Calculation and Payment of Waste Disposal Levy) Regulations 2009\u201D, I want to come back. I\u2019m spending a lot of time reading the supplementary analysis report, and there\u2019s a lot in here about the why\u2014why Cabinet has made these choices. And I guess I need to know and understand a bit of that process. Obviously, there has been some consultation. We can see here there have been some stakeholder views put in. But, of course, those stakeholders don\u2019t get to have the full experience of sitting in front of a select committee and putting in thoughtful submissions that we as the Environment Committee would have considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIn this analysis, it talks about fiscal savings for the Budget. And, I guess, as we look at the calculation table, it concerns me that they directly mention Budget savings to ensure that, obviously, they find some money somewhere else. And then I flick through\u2014and there\u2019s lots of bits of paper here for me to rustle through. I guess, when we look at the schedule of payments, the document makes it really clear that that table is an increase, but the broadening of what the money is for means that there will be assumed consequences from it. And I want to just mention that it talks, on page 11, about the objective to \u201Cmaintain the efficiency and effectiveness of the levy regime\u201D. It has the potential, the way the bill has been drafted, for the calculation of the waste payment to be nearer a tax rather than a levy. And that\u2019s, I guess, what we want to understand. It talks about, on page 13, the Treasury\u2019s Guidelines for Setting Charges in the Public Sector, when it comes to levies. But, in a way, the levies may be more akin to a tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI really want to make sure that this is a levy, in terms of the schedule around the calculation of the payment, and then come back to what the Hon David Parker asked around consensus, because we want to be constructive and we want to make sure\u2014as I said in the previous section of the legislation\u2014that this is tight and right so that it works well. And then, again, I want to support my senior colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking in terms of making sure\u2014you know, could we maybe consider that this is referred to a select committee and taken out of urgency, in that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo, again, Schedule 2 around the levy rates\u2014how does that work? As said in this document, there is the potential of it being closer to a tax than a levy. Are you confident you have that right? And, then, how do we work at building consensus? Thank you, Mr\u00A0Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00228abaac3b24524370abd1c238b9410345\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228abaac3b24524370abd1c238b9410345\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank the Hon David Parker who gave us the history lesson on the levy, as it came in from back in 2009. Can I just say there were discussions with the Green Party, prior to the amendment bill coming into the House, regarding the appropriate levy rates. It would have been very difficult to have come to a consensus given the extreme increases that they wanted to see in what is a very difficult financial time for businesses, particularly, and households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ECan I just reflect on the member Glen Bennett, who just sat down, and his allergic reaction to the notion of savings. The financial situation this Government has been left in\u2014certainly, it was a very responsible thing for us to do to look for savings to reduce Government spending. We do not shy away from the fact that the requirement for this to go through urgency is to enable this to take effect by the start of the next financial year to achieve some of those savings. The increase in the levy is modest to reflect what we believe businesses and households can cope with at this time. The member may not have been here\u2014sorry, may not have heard the discussion around the levy. The levy is still a levy. It retains a link between those paying the levy and the outcomes being funded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u00226acdfc9760c74d3ebd47c43fc04a4e25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226acdfc9760c74d3ebd47c43fc04a4e25\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am honoured to be speaking on behalf of my tabled amendment here, which is looking at clause 14 and the actual levy rates for these three different categories: business and for our households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe in the Green Party agree that the cost of living for everyday Kiwis is terrible and it\u2019s only going to get worse under this Government. So we need to be really serious about waste minimisation. The Minister has talked about New South Wales broadening their scope of environmental activities. Well, my question to the Minister is: if we\u2019re using New South Wales as an example for why we\u2019re broadening the scope of activities, then will she bring the waste levies in line with New South Wales, which are currently $160 per tonne? New Zealand, we\u2019re looking at $60 a tonne, so that is less than half of what New South Wales is paying for tonnage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ENow, let me just explain about industry. Industry will only invest in waste minimisation and reducing their waste to landfill when it costs more for them to send it to landfill than it does to reduce their waste. That is what a waste levy is about. We know that, at the moment, our waste levy is too low for them to be actually motivated to make those changes that we really, really need. So let\u2019s understand that. If the waste levy goes up to a sufficient amount, industry will actually make that difference and work on their waste minimisation, and we will live up to our environmental obligations. So the waste levies should be going up, and they should be going towards waste minimisation infrastructure and projects, because we have a $2.4 billion deficit in infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk about what that infrastructure actually is. So my colleague here Steve Abel talked about Xtreme Zero Waste in Wh\u0101ingaroa, Raglan. That is a resource recovery centre\u2014it\u2019s not a dump; it\u2019s about recovering the precious resources they have mined and extracted in this exploitative, extractive system that we currently live in, and they recover those resources. We have those same things like at W\u0101naka Wastebusters, we have them at Ethical Waste in Ruapehu. People at the flax-roots, in place; local people, who know how to recover those resources and keep that capital within their communities. These are amazing initiatives that actually send a real message to New Zealand and the world that New Zealand will clean up its own mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re not going to leave it to our next generations to have to be cleaning up the mess that we are creating today. There\u2019s a $2.4 billion deficit in infrastructure, and you want to take money away from waste minimisation. We need to be increasing the waste levy, and I just implore the other side to really, really focus on the interconnectedness of the world and how the world really works, because as New Zealand falls further and further behind other countries with regards to our environment, our climate action, and our waste minimisation, that is going to affect our trade, because no one\u2019s going to be wanting to buy dirty products from dirty New Zealand. We have a clean, green image that our tourism industry\u2014that New Zealand\u2014relies on and that our businesses rely on, like the beautiful Ruapehu, which is a tourist industry, and we need to make sure that those precious taonga that have been gifted to us by Papat\u016B\u0101nuku are respected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI think that this Government really needs to go back and reflect on what the repercussions are for our tamariki for the next generation and for every generation after\u00A0that, because what you are not understanding is that there is no economy without the environment\u2014there is no economy without the environment. We need to be serious about our commitments to our next generations, to Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, and to living in harmony with nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u00221f47d3e16ab1489c8bcc6f06d4b2cd03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f47d3e16ab1489c8bcc6f06d4b2cd03\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got some questions for the Minister. They relate to Schedule 2, and they relate to the title, and they relate to the commencement. So I\u2019ll just go through them one by one, starting with Schedule 2. They really relate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bd6b195abf1402499f44ab95087d528\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: If you could focus on your question on Schedule\u00A02; this is not the debate on the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d205d69be34885859a72ea11e3af7f\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019ll focus on those questions, then. My question to the Minister relates to the supplementary analysis report, page 15, where the officials go through the costs and benefits of the increases to the levy rates. So I\u2019m just going to quote paragraph 72: \u201Chigher levy rates may incentivise more re-use of materials and less use of virgin materials, with associated impacts on natural resources and greenhouse gas emissions; reduced greenhouse gas emissions from organic waste disposed of to landfills\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: has the Minister had specific advice on how these impact New Zealand\u2019s ability to meet our domestic methane targets? Have we had specific advice on that? And the second part of the question is: have you had specific advice on how these changes to the levy rates affect New Zealand\u2019s ability to meet our nationally determined contribution to the United Nations as part of the Paris climate talks? I\u2019ll leave it with those questions and get back to my other questions around title and commencement later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00220321cc0bc4864cfb84510db35dfedbba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220321cc0bc4864cfb84510db35dfedbba\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I rise to take a call in relation to Schedule 2 for the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. I had a previous\u2014just a recap\u2014question in Part 1 to the Minister in relation to existing Orders in Council that provide waivers to the waste disposal levy, and the Minister, in response to that, said that there is a waiver in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI had an additional question, but, actually, it is in relation to Schedule 2, because, then, that means, on the basis of that response that the current waivers for those local operators that were to be revoked by 24 July 2025, every operator of a disposal facility will be subject to the new fees, which are now set out in Schedule 2, until they\u2019ve received a waiver, despite them already having a waiver under current regulations. So my question is to the Minister: when she said, \u201Cthere\u2019s a waiver in the bill\u201D, does that actually revoke, then, the current Order in Council waiver so that they would need to apply again to get some reprieve from Schedule 2 increases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022696d796f4c5249b49fe4631ccd08679a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022696d796f4c5249b49fe4631ccd08679a\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. I\u2019ve got additional information for the member\u2019s question. So the Severe Weather Emergency Recovery (Waste Minimisation) Order 2023, which amended the Waste Minimisation Act in specific cyclone-affected parts of New Zealand and which continues to apply after 24 July 2025, is not changed by this bill. And operators of dispersal facilities within the affected local boundaries are exempt from paying the levy on cyclone and flood waste disposed of before the close of 24 July 2025. So for the exempted types of waste in the exempted areas disposed of before close of 24 July 2025, the levy does not have to be paid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022de66dba646204cb6ac3c0115a2f649da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de66dba646204cb6ac3c0115a2f649da\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Firstly, if I may, it would be great for the Minister for the Environment to answer my previous questions\u2014that would be great. On that note, one of the things I noticed the Minister previously mentioned is that there has been no forecasted increase in the levy, which is one of the reasons that this was introduced, as it is laid out in Schedule 2 here. I would just like to say, I think that regardless of who would have been in Government, maybe we would have seen a similar amendment bill coming through that potentially would have increased the levy and potentially increased the levy at the rate that my colleagues Steve Abel and Kahurangi Carter\u2019s amendments have\u00A0indicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe two questions I have for the Minister relating to Schedule 2 and this part\u2014tied to this is the first one around levy avoidance. I want to draw people\u2019s attention to the supplementary analysis report and, again, bring attention to the importance that we are seeing a supplementary analysis report in lieu of a regulatory impact report because of the fact that this bill is going into urgency and there simply wasn\u2019t enough time to put together a regulatory impact statement. So, on paragraph 88\u2014sorry, paragraph 71, here it talks about the projected levy revenue that we will be seeing as a part of this increase in the levy across all four classes. But what we see in paragraphs 88 and 89 is that an \u201Cincrease in levy rates may result in levy avoidance behaviour\u201D\u2014particularly with \u201Cwaste being inappropriately disposed of at landfills with lower levy rates\u201D. Now, taking into consideration the other possibility you have put on the table in terms of amendments to the paper and to the levy rate, what sort of mitigation strategies has the Minister considered at this stage to reduce the chances of levy avoidance, and is levy avoidance currently factored into the projected revenue rate that we see in paragraph 71 of the supplementary analysis report? So that\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question is around the community cost with the increase in levy and, particularly, the municipal disposal facility, class 1. So, on page 3 of the supplementary analysis report, we see the limitations and constraints on this analysis\u2014in particular, I point to the section on the \u201CImpacts\u201D. So under the \u201CImpacts\u201D section, it says that \u201Cthe analysis included limited assessment of the impacts of levy rate increases on certain population groups\u201D, such as the average household, and, in particular, \u201Cthe potential risk of unintended consequences and perverse outcomes \u2026 could not be examined.\u201D So I would like to know from the Minister: what sort of strategy does the Minister have when it comes to the community impact of increasing the levy of the municipal disposal facility class 1? This is in addition to what we also see in paragraphs 63 and 66, which also speak of the fact that \u201CThis proposal has not been subject to external engagement or consultation.\u201D, and \u201Cthe sector will likely have a range of views on amendments to levy settings.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo I think these two questions are really, really important for the Minister to clarify. The first one is: what is the Minister\u2019s strategy around levy avoidance which could be a result of this, particularly when people will dispose of waste at a lower-tiered facility in order to get a lower rate, and has that been factored into the projected revenue? The second one is: what sort of impact assessment or analysis\u2014beyond the supplementary analysis report\u2014has been done on the community cost and, particularly, the household cost with the increase to the municipal disposal facility, class 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba2cd0e278464509b5179ad3992ca831\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba2cd0e278464509b5179ad3992ca831\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In answer to the questions that have been put regarding avoidance, there is additional reporting that comes in on 1 July this year. So some of that will address it. Also, I would remind the member that I have a legislative bid in\u2014for later in the year\u2014for wider reform of the waste legislation. We will particularly look at some of the avoidance matters around things like fly-tipping and things like that. So, along with that avoidance, I\u2019ve given the assurance to the Hon Rachel Brooking that that would be the appropriate time to look at the local authority scope as well. So there is some additional reporting coming in, in July this year, which will help to mitigate\u2014but there will be an opportunity to put more mitigation in as we look at that wider reform of the waste legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI am trying to remember\u2014oh, the impact. I think I commented, in either my first or second reading speech, that the amount per family was around about $5.07 per annum once the municipal rate got up to the full $75 per tonne in year 2027. So it\u2019s a modest increase and a modest impact on an average family.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00224d1244d6f39a471f836d23aa07c68213\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d1244d6f39a471f836d23aa07c68213\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (Whip\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022259ecd1fa3b848be89f1d793fc3f3350\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022259ecd1fa3b848be89f1d793fc3f3350\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister, for those answers. I just want to clarify, and ask you a question on, your comment around the cost of living, in terms of the impact on people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EFor context, the current municipal disposal rate is $60 per tonne, the managed or controlled fill disposal rate is a mere $10 per tonne, and the construction fill and demolition fill disposal rate is only $30 per tonne. So, already, municipal disposal is twice the cost to your average New Zealander than it is for construction and demolition fill. That is a massive let-off for industrial waste disposal. Industrial monofill, waste generated from a single industrial process, according to the supplementary analysis report, does not get any levy at all, and those can include toxic wastes, potentially. Inert but highly contaminated soils and rubbles have only just received a levy of $10 as of July 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo, right now, we are making the average New Zealander pay more for their domestic waste disposal than we are industry, by a significant margin. Our proposal in the amendment by Kahurangi Carter is not to increase any further than what you are proposing, Minister, the rate for municipal disposal, from $60\u2014and $5 a year on upwards. We are proposing a $20 increase per year on construction fill and managed or controlled fill. Now, the crucial thing is, and the question to you, Minister, is what analysis was done\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b14a6e274bab4deb91f537e1c78f12cb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Please engage through the Chair, not directly with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4aa832ddb8a408c8d66153f5434b204\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon me, Mr Chair. The question to the Minister is: what analysis was done on the impact on reduction in waste volumes by a higher threshold of levy? Was there analysis done on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe core of that question matters because, as we know, in other jurisdictions, when a levy reaches a certain level, such as $150 or $160 a tonne, it drives new efforts by industry to remove waste from landfill. That\u2019s when we start to get the actual waste minimisation effect. You don\u2019t get the waste minimisation effect if the levy is only going to be $70 by 2026, for construction and demolition waste, significantly behind what\u2019s happening in Australia. A $20\u00A0per annum increase gets us closer to what we need to be doing to disincentivise waste going to landfill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe other thing to consider, Minister, in terms of the cost of living impact, is that waste is a cost and a burden on our society. What is the extent of that cost and burden, and how much more quickly can we drive it down by sending strong signals that we are disincentivising waste? If we don\u2019t send those strong signals, we risk the waste problem being worse and we don\u2019t get the infrastructural funding for making the change, but what\u2019s more, of course, if the levy is effective as a Pigouvian disincentive tax, the volume of money coming from the levy goes down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWe want the income to Government from the levy to be decreasing, because that is a sign the levy is working as a disincentive. What analysis was done on the levels at which we maximise that decrease in the volumes of waste going to landfill? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022002641c4299642899665a48026287388\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022002641c4299642899665a48026287388\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. Actually, I\u2019m going to ask a question, and I know there are rules and procedures around what Cabinet can and can\u2019t say, but it\u2019s more about the process around the levy space. But I just want to correct the record because, in my previous contribution, actually, I made a mistake, and I want to fix\u00A0it just for the sake of Hansard, who are doing a sterling job in capturing all of our amazing k\u014Drero. I did say that there had been stakeholder engagement, but, actually, there hadn\u2019t been stakeholder engagement on this. In my brain, I did quickly read it, so I just apologise for that. There was no stakeholder engagement on this legislation. I just wanted to clarify\u00A0that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EComing back to the question around Cabinet processes and the increasing of the levies\u2014so, obviously, we have been talking about that a lot, and, obviously, you\u2019re a champion of the environment, as Minister, and I\u2019m glad to hear, as you just said, that you are putting a bid in later in the year. But I\u2019m just wanting, I guess, to get assurance from the committee in terms of\u2014you, obviously, can\u2019t disclose the conversation, but there was actually work done to get these numbers right, because the numbers are obviously increasing, and, obviously, it\u2019s really how that was calculated, understanding that work. So my first question, really, is in terms of how the Minister led on that in formulating this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI guess the reason I bring it up is because, obviously, in a usual situation, in select committee, I know that industry would have submitted in the hundreds and, potentially, thousands on this, and they all would have had an opinion on their levy. They all would have had an opinion on where it\u2019s set and where it is. And so that\u2019s why I just want to understand from the Minister in terms of whether she consulted with others. How did they come up with these numbers? Or did they just spin a magic wheel in the Cabinet room? I don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESecondly, around that\u2014so getting to understand the levy\u2014is the lead-in time and just where that fits in terms of, again, how the Minister for the Environment landed on that lead-in time, as the additional levy rates increase applies from 2025. In terms of the lead-in time, I\u2019m hoping and guessing officials had given advice on that. I know there\u2019s things, obviously\u2014because you can\u2019t just do them\u2014well, there\u2019s some things you can slam through overnight but other things you can\u2019t when it comes to communications with the sector and when it comes to systems change to get the computer settings right, and those types of things. So, in terms of that lead-in time, is the Minister confident and had good advice to ensure that everything is lined up in terms of getting it right for that increase to apply from 2025?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve talked a lot about social licence in the committee stage. We\u2019ve talked a lot about working across the aisle. We\u2019ve talked a lot about how we bring people with us. And I guess, again, if this was just dumped into the inboxes of industry, of those who are having to dispose of products, what would it be for them just to suddenly have that \u201CWell, this starts at this date.\u201D? But just to know that there is a clear, I guess, communication plan and that they feel that\u2014and, for most of us who have worked in the real world, we set the date for where we want to be and then work our way back to make sure we have all our ducks in a line, all our protected ducks, all our waterways and riverways in a line and clean and green, so that we can move along and care for those ducks and support those ducks and take photos of those ducks and make sure they\u2019re safe and protected. So that lead-in time\u2014it\u2019s important that we get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI assume that this is going to pass. I assume that, suddenly, magically, the Leader of the House isn\u2019t going to come bowling in here and say, \u201CActually, stop. We\u2019re going to take it to select committee.\u201D I\u2019m guessing that\u2019s not going to happen. So we just want to make sure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff6f73673349461aa3717968616faf02\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s still time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f330bb9edfd4e1795193fc9173c12b6\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: There is still time\u2014there is still time\u2014to make sure that there is a decent lead-in time so that the sector, so that industry, isn\u2019t blindsided yet again by another piece of legislation that\u2019s rammed through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo just the processes that the Minister championed; the lead-in time, just to make sure we get this right, because we actually want New Zealanders to do right by waste. And, as I\u2019ve said many a time, we want to keep it tight, and we want to get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00226533592682f74cf8b56917eb36344296\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226533592682f74cf8b56917eb36344296\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. I will answer the questions by the Green member Steve Abel and may, at the same time, answer\u2014I think there might have been a question somewhere in the previous speaker\u2019s discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe calculations, yes, were done around the impact of the changes around the construction sector, based on the estimates of how much waste is produced during construction of a new build. The levy costs, by the time of getting to 2027, would increase for a home being built, for an average sized three-bedroom home, by around $46 a house, while the levy cost for disposal of materials from a typical house demolition would increase by about $206 for each demolition. I acknowledge these are modest, but given that we are in a housing crisis, we are very, very mindful of not putting anything in the way of houses being built and, in fact, are trying very hard to reduce some of the compliance costs around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWith regard to why there is a difference between the different classes of facility, there is much greater ability for reuse and recycling of municipal waste and much less for the classes 3 and 4, the managed or controlled fill disposal facilities, where lightly contaminated materials are going in, and there is very little opportunity for recycling there. And, similarly, with the construction and demolition waste, there is increasing infrastructure, but that is certainly not as mature as the infrastructure that is there for dealing with municipal waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u00229239c88b3cf6450184a657e7f81281bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229239c88b3cf6450184a657e7f81281bb\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to reiterate my question again because the Minister hasn\u2019t answered it yet, and I acknowledge that it might be because of some confusion between myself and my esteemed colleague Lawrence Xu-Nan. The Minister might have thought that she\u2019d answered my question when in fact she\u2019d answered Lawrence\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ll just reiterate my question again and add on a couple more. Again, my question asked whether the Minister has had specific advice on how the levy rates and the proposed increases affect New Zealand\u2019s ability to meet our domestic methane target. And the second part of my previous question was: has she had specific advice on how the levy rates have affected New Zealand\u2019s ability to meet our nationally determined contribution? I have two extra questions as well. We know that there are different levy rates in Schedule 2. There are three different ones: for municipal disposal facilities, for managed or controlled fill disposal facilities, and for construction and demolition fill disposal facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWe know that the municipal disposal facilities are class 1 landfills and that the construction and demolition fill sites are still landfills and receive organic waste. So was consideration given to equalising the rates of both of those, to align at least the construction and demolition landfill to meet the rates of the municipal disposal landfills, given that there are otherwise incentives for companies\u2014and we\u2019ve heard the supplementary paper refer to this as well. The ministry has acknowledged the concerns, from some submitters in a previous round of consultation, that some people might reclassify waste that should be going to class 1 landfills as construction and demolition waste so that it goes to class 2 landfills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThat is significant. Many class 1 landfills, except those that are too small to qualify, are required to have landfill gas capture technology, and class 2 landfills are not required to have that technology, which means that this rate differentiation may in fact create perverse incentives for people to reclassify their waste so that it goes to the class 2 landfills. And I\u2019m sure that all the members of this committee who care about a clean, green Aotearoa would agree that that would be a really bad outcome from this bill. So I\u2019m just curious as to whether there\u2019s been any analysis or any advice done on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EAlso, because we have not had the opportunity to go to through a select committee process and there\u2019s not been an opportunity for people to submit like they usually would, I just want to make sure I get on the record, in the Hansard, some of the stakeholder views on what the increase in this levy fund could be used for. I refer to paragraph 63 on page 14 of the supplementary analysis report. When asked what the levy revenue should be spent on, a majority of respondents indicated a preference for funding waste infrastructure, followed by compliance monitoring and enforcement and behaviour change activities\u2014mentioned by nearly one-third of submitters. Approximately 25 percent of the submitters responded that the levy revenue should be able to be spent in line with the waste hierarchy or the top end of the waste hierarchy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ESo the top end of the waste hierarchy is focused on avoiding waste altogether. The middle layer is spent on recovering waste so that we at least get some value from the waste that we do generate. And the bottom is the worst kinds of activities, which is disposal either to landfill or even below that, disposal to skyfill, which is waste incineration, which is the worst of the bunch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThe stakeholder views go on to describe how there were no comments in relation to spending levy funds on managing waste from emergency responses and no comments on administration of what the other things should be spent on. I\u2019m aware that I\u2019m straying a little bit back to Schedule 1, so I\u2019ll make sure that I park myself back into Part 2 and reiterate the questions I had around how the levy rate affects New Zealand\u2019s ability to impact our climate targets, both domestic and international commitments, under the nationally determined contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EAlso, the new question that I asked in this area was: was there consideration or advice or any thinking around the desire to equalise the levy rates for class 2 and class 1 landfill, given the potential to create perverse incentives if these are not aligned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5dfe729455940b2b6ec9aa88fdfcbbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5dfe729455940b2b6ec9aa88fdfcbbe\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for giving me the ability to take a call. I do actually want to speak to both Schedule 2 and the tabled amendment in the name of Kahurangi Carter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important that when Parliament goes through the process of either increasing taxes or increasing levies or imposing levies or taxes, there is some assessment of where the incidence of that burden lands. There is no regulatory impact statement in relation to this bill. However, I\u2019m looking for the impact of where the incidence of this increased levy lands. I looked in the supplementary analysis report, and pages 16 to 17 have some brief comments as to the different sectors and the impact of increased levies on them\u2014or increased taxes\u2014and how it would impact them. The reason why I just want to step through those different sectors is because I think it\u2019s important to provide some understanding as to where the Labour Party will vote in relation to Kahurangi Carter\u2019s tabled amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIf you go to paragraph 75 of the supplementary analysis report, the first group that it looks at is \u201CLandfill site operators, who would need to pay the higher levy costs. However\u201D, the statement continues, \u201Cthis is expected to\u201D pass through costs on to others. So in some cases, where there is a substantial competition, some site operators may find it harder to pass all the costs on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo then the question is: well, if there are less site operators, what\u2019s the impact if there are less site operators because of the increased charges set out in Schedule 2 and proposed in the tabled amendment? Does that mean that we\u2019re going to end up with more dumping of waste\u2014construction waste or other waste; household waste\u2014on to public sites? Because the incidence of the burden of this increased tax falls on those site operators where there is a lot of competition. They\u2019re not able to pass the cost on, so, therefore, there will be less site operators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe next sector that the supplementary analysis report goes through is \u201CProducers/disposers of waste \u2026 households, businesses, and territorial authorities. Overall, the increases to levy rates are estimated to raise an additional $171 million in revenue between 2025/26 and 2027/28\u201D. That\u2019s compared to what would apply from 1\u00A0July 2024, so that\u2019s quite substantial\u2014$171 million. I haven\u2019t calculated how much the amount would be given under the tabled amendment, but I would say, given that the construction and demolition disposal facility is recommended at $90 per tonne from $27.70 per tonne for managed or controlled field disposals and then 75\u2014sorry I\u2019m just reading what Kahurangi Carter\u2019s tabled amendment says\u2014it would be considerably more revenue that\u2019s collected by the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBut, again, going back to the landfill site operators, there may be less of them. They won\u2019t be able to pass the operations on, so, therefore, there are just some concerns raised there about actually increasing it way too much, which is covered within the tabled amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe statement also says that the \u201CImpacts on households: while households will likely face some cost increases, this will vary depending on how territorial authorities and landfill operators charge for rubbish collection.\u201D So we already know, right now, that local authorities are having difficulty in basically meeting their everyday operational and capital costs, hence why we are seeing soaring rates increases across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EFor example, I\u2019m not too sure what the Bay of Plenty increase is\u2014I know in Porirua it\u2019s around 17 percent and 8 percent the next year. But, obviously, depending on where it is in the country, the increases in the rates\u2014basically this impact assessment says that it\u2019s likely that that cost will be absorbed by those territorial authorities. But I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s actually going to happen, because local authorities are already telling us that they have a huge increase in rates. So the statement goes: this would be a $3 plus GST increase across the period per trailer load.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThen it goes on to the next section, \u201CImpacts on construction and demolition and development\u201D. Now, this is a really key part for me because the construction sector is the second largest employer in my electorate of Mana. We are already having an economic slowdown. The construction industry is already on its knees because the Government has slowed down buildings of houses, hospitals, and schools. However, what this bill then does is increase the cost in Schedule 2 for the construction, demolition, and development sector\u2014[Bell rung] Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2a74955ae74cd3aac45fa1b24abf18\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Barbara Edmonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ec716eed6242b09962af9f7040195a\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll sum it up really quickly. So, what this talks about is that based on estimates of how much waste is produced during construction of a new-build house, levy costs for waste disposal could increase by $46 per house, while levy costs for disposal of materials from a typical house demolition could increase by around $206. Schedule 2 looks at increasing the cost for the typical house demolition to around\u00A0$206.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo my question, really, is to the Minister\u2014I\u2019m sure the Ministry for the Environment would have given careful consideration about those incentives; they would have recommended an amount where you didn\u2019t want people incentivised to dump into public sectors. But I just want to check with the Minister in relation to the tabled amendment by Kahurangi Carter. Was there any advice she received in relation to higher than what she has proposed in Schedule 2? Because I think that\u2019s an important consideration for us in the Labour Party as to whether we would support that amendment. I know the Minister doesn\u2019t have to do it, but we are really concerned about the increased cost to the construction sector\u2014in particular for a house build that\u2019s going to increase from $46 per house to $206 per house, so three times the cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIf the Minister can just provide a bit of clarity as to whether they considered anything higher than the $45, which is in Schedule 2, from 2027, and, if not, then we can see whether we can support the tabled amendment or not. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002278bd422d578342ddb26da9b3113c728f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278bd422d578342ddb26da9b3113c728f\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3352e74c2bc412c9bd8f4f8127a2e32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3352e74c2bc412c9bd8f4f8127a2e32\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Further to the points being made by my colleague Barbara Edmonds, this is the sort of really useful conversation that I would have hoped would have happened at a select committee, where we can talk about even our differences in interpretation on the progressive side of this Parliament. That\u2019s important. That\u2019s what a select committee does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo, given that we\u2019re doing that all now, I just want to note\u2014at paragraph 79 on page 16 of the supplementary analysis report\u2014the current proposed levy will increase the cost to households on average by a whopping $5.10 per annum\u2014$5.10 per annum. Now, that is such a nominal increase, and that\u2019s the current proposed $5 per tonne. In the cost of building a house\u2014the million dollars or more that it will cost you to build a house, at least; I mean, my goodness, hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars, to build a house\u2014we\u2019re talking about a very nominal figure, as you just articulated, Minister, of $43, and two-hundred-and-something dollars for the cost of the demolition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, think about the value of increasing the levy on those demolition wastes. As you and I all know, many of those houses that are being demolished are 1940s, 1950s, or 1960s weatherboard timber New Zealand houses\u2014made of beautiful native timber, often\u2014with incredible recoverable materials, like mata\u012B floors and kauri floors. It is stuff that we, rightly, are not logging right now, although I\u2019m a bit concerned this Government might decide to come back to native forest logging at some point. Those things are valuable materials and timbers, but if there is not a sufficient incentive for them to be properly recovered, then they don\u2019t get recovered. If it\u2019s only going to cost 250 bucks to dump a whole house, then why will industry find ways to recover those valuable materials. There is no away place for waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s my question to the Minister: have you fully considered the huge benefits of increasing that levy? I\u2019m not convinced you\u2019ve given me an answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got one further question, which is to an earlier question. You have an assurance, I believe, that you would look at ensuring that municipal authorities\u2014regional authorities\u2014are able to use their component of the levy\u201450 percent of it\u2014for remediation of existing landfill sites. I wonder, given that you refused to change it in the previous part, whether you could give us a verbal assurance that those\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e627c3d9e1454cb9abe3b5fc7499c291\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Please engage with the Chair, not with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271f3b6e295ff4f1f813807bc8cc985a3\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon me, Chair. I wonder whether the Minister would give us a verbal assurance that municipal authorities and regional authorities will be able to use their component of the levy for remediating landfill sites, which are dotted across this nation\u2014old landfill sites, toxic sites that are leaching waste into groundwater. Those authorities do the heavy lifting on keeping those sites cleaned and remediated. Will you give us that assurance, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00222cba0a2020b24c6596e860014f0c027d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cba0a2020b24c6596e860014f0c027d\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022835f896fa0d645f39d9d022c6713167b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f5a022cecd574a9f822b6228f39698ec\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000372\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221592230ae39240e0b1b07a023a031480\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a40f2eacb45c4ec6ba1c1783d924e522\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000374\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e1f610e6be74009823b7042a53dfae3\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00228fbfbfd7b84742aa8f0f14275be21c7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fbfbfd7b84742aa8f0f14275be21c7a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Kahurangi Carter\u2019s tabled amendment to replace Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222608f8542562473bb84ab239c4ea9ad0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022817a87b8d85142468609881b983556b2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000377\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002236377ef23b944bd6b76831aa9c08148a\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7e877ef2113483d9e6312a3509f3731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7e877ef2113483d9e6312a3509f3731\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on clauses 1 to 3. This is the debate on clauses 1 to 3, \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7feb59992594f0a90b90338da59530f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7feb59992594f0a90b90338da59530f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin): \u003C/span\u003EThank you, Mr Chair. Talking to the title\u2014this is the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill\u2014and given the Minister\u2019s discussions and what we have heard is in the supplementary analysis report and why this bill is here in Budget urgency, I\u2019m suggesting that this title should be amended to \u201CThis Act is the Waste Minimisation (Pay for Environmental Cuts) Amendment Act 2024.\u201D I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, this all goes back to the wider point that we\u2019ve been discussing today about the extension of what the levy can be spent on. That extension is for all the environmental things. The Minister has talked, in a number of speeches, about how important it is to think in terms of a circular economy and how important it is to think of the long life of a product and the many lives their product can have, so, of course, it could be amended to something like \u201CActivities that Reduce Environmental Harm Related to the Life of a Product\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIf that was the case, then my suggested amendment to the title would not be needed because, indeed, it would still be about waste, but this bill has gone well beyond waste, and the Minister has shown no interest in making an amendment that would fix that problem. It would be a very simple problem to fix. So until that happens, this bill needs to be renamed. I would be interested, again, in hearing from the Minister about why it is that this nexus between waste and whatever the spending is on needs to remain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI mean, another suggested change could be because that nexus is not there, and we heard from the Hon Barbara Edmonds, and earlier on we heard from the Hon Dr Duncan Webb as well about the importance of a levy, having a nexus before it becomes a tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo another suggestion is, of course, that \u201CThis Act is the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Tax) Amendment Act.\u201D, because until there is the nexus, it isn\u2019t the levy, and it\u2019s going well beyond any consensus that has been in this waste minimisation space. It\u2019s a consensus that I\u2019ve been very pleased about and have hoped to continue with the Minister, with all the parties in Parliament, because it really does seem like a no-brainer, but instead this Budget is choosing to reduce environmental spending with the 7.5 percent cuts across the board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe know, as well, with climate change that there are cuts there to all of the mitigation measures. We know that there are cuts to the Department of Conservation. Presumably, with this widening of the objective, spending could be provided to groups doing things. And we know that this Budget has been good for ferrets\u2014it has been good for ferrets because everything\u2019s been cut. So who\u2019s going to prosper when we don\u2019t have the Jobs for Nature doing pest management? It\u2019s going to be the ferrets\u2014other mustelids as well; not restricting it to ferrets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a4e53167da1438abefb77576275d465\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a3ccbd39ce4ee682c48b11f7d6a482\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been challenged here to stick to the bill. I\u2019m totally sticking to the bill, because that is the point\u2014this bill is supposed to be about waste and waste minimisation. We accept that that goes further than just thinking about what is being taken to a waste facility, that we should be looking at landfills and old landfills. We can be looking at what happens in emergency circumstances\u2014that\u2019s a proper thing to be doing. If that was the case and there was still that nexus with waste, then \u201CThis Act is the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Act.\u201D\u2014that is the proper title for the Act, but at the moment it is increased too far. It is overreaching and that name needs to change, so either in the brackets, \u201CPay for Environmental Cuts\u201D or, in the brackets, \u201CPay for Waste Disposal Tax\u201D. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022787b2d28b60c4f5d94c33f41326aa14b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022787b2d28b60c4f5d94c33f41326aa14b\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to take a call in relation to this title and commencement section of this debate\u2014only the third part of the debate that we\u2019ve been able to have on this bill. I think often the importance of the title and commencement debate is a little bit overlooked in this debating chamber, but I think it is important to realise that the most read and considered part and the most influential part of a bill is always the title. So it\u2019s really important that we get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022346a5df87f9b4d839a8243865e9e0f74\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: The title? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb57ef51df24ecdbd9bf8cac87534ba\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yeah\u2014it\u2019s the thing that\u2019s reported on. It\u2019s the most read part of the bill. I challenge you to prove otherwise. Most people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5c43cf87b194a34be9334d6a5a2282b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Engage with the Chair, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b71f09be1c4445039391df457ff5e16f\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a helpful interjection, Mr Chair\u2014you know, it\u2019d be interesting if the Minister in the chair had a view on that. But I would think that statistically, yes, it is usually the most read part of the bill\u2014the title. So it is important, and it\u2019s really important that it reflects the content of the bill for that reason, because it is so influential in guiding what the public sees as the content of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll all be aware that waste management, or waste minimisation, in some contexts has been used to cover a myriad of different types of roles and types of activities that people in society have. Quite famously, in fact, waste management has been used in things like The Sopranos to cover things that were not actually waste management, in terms of people\u2019s roles. So this bill has not an exact reflection on that particular situation\u2014I\u00A0wouldn\u2019t go anywhere near that far\u2014but I would say that there are certain things within this bill which are not reflected in waste minimisation. So I support the amendment of my\u00A0colleague Rachel Brooking to change the title to be more reflective of what it actually\u00A0does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI have a few other suggestions, as we haven\u2019t heard the Minister for the Environment\u2019s feedback on my colleague Rachel Brooking\u2019s suggestion. So I would like to ask the Minister: would she consider changing the title clause to \u201CThis Act is the Waste Minimisation (Paying for Tax Cuts) Amendment Act\u201D? Would she consider changing it to the \u201CWaste Minimisation (Paying for Unspecified Projects in the Future) Amendment Act\u201D? Would she consider changing it to the \u201CWaste Minimisation (Increased Powers to the Minister) Amendment Act\u201D? Will she consider a slight change to the title clause, with a variation on what my colleague Rachel Brooking suggested: \u201CThis Act is the Waste Minimisation and Decrease in Environmental Spending Amendment Act\u201D? All of these, I think, would give a much better flavour as to the exact changes that have been brought in by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOf course, we\u2019re aware that we have existing legislation in waste management. We\u2019re aware of that because the principal Act, which is part of the clauses that we\u2019re debating at the moment, is mentioned in this section in clause 3\u2014the Waste Minimisation Act 2008. We\u2019ve had a discussion in earlier parts on the history of how that came about, so we know we have waste management legislation in New Zealand. So what are we getting here? What is new? I think the title could more aptly reflect what we are actually getting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested to hear the Minister\u2019s comments on that. I know other members will have some contributions to make in terms of the commencement, but my question is purely around the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022d47636bee5e14b579338877b1fb16bac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d47636bee5e14b579338877b1fb16bac\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Speaking to the title and commencement, one thing that is clear, and has been articulated by others\u2014and I have a proposition that extends on some of the commentary that\u2019s been made\u2014is that this is no longer merely a waste minimisation amendment bill. It\u2019s no longer\u2014it is an amendment bill, but it\u2019s no longer merely a waste minimisation, waste disposal levy. Now there is a problem, for the expectation of the public, when they are paying levies and they stray into the tax territory, is that what they\u2019re being told they\u2019ve paid for is actually what they\u2019re being used for. I think it\u2019s been very clearly articulated in the debate so far that, clearly, the broadening of the categorisation to include other things is going beyond a waste minimisation levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo I propose this title to the Minister: I suggest it would be more correctly called the \u201CFinancial Diversion of Waste Minimisation Levy to Mining and Dairy Waste Cleanup.\u201D It\u2019s a bit long, so I\u2019m actually going to\u2014understood correctly, it\u2019s the \u201CFinancial Diversion of the Waste Minimisation Levy to Mining and Dairy Waste Cleanup.\u201D Now, that is technically what it\u2019s able to be used for, under the definitions of what it can be used for, so would it not, Minister, be more correct to give it a title that is fit for what it does? Well, that\u2019s my question, and I\u2019ll leave that with you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4e1b07075af46c8b8f7946d36a1368b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4e1b07075af46c8b8f7946d36a1368b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The sitting is suspended until 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223df37eaaa58f453184062d1efc817a04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223df37eaaa58f453184062d1efc817a04\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E There are two issues I want to raise in this contribution. The first is why the legislative framework no longer sets up a levy; it\u2019s now tax. Levies are collected for purposes for which the activity is related. So if you take a levy from the solid waste sector, you should be spending it in that sector. You shouldn\u2019t be using it for other purposes that are unrelated\u2014for example, for dealing with agricultural pollution from non-point source discharges or for riparian planting and that sort of thing, which are unrelated to landfills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d1f7f1f521c4c4ba11cf89bf6e262d4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: And is this related to the title and commencement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c359621218b4acfbf9e2bc41adb1a65\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022862837c4e41e4f689e89683cfef912d8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227026801b64fb4412b6f72c7cd7ca8c6c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is the difference between a levy and a tax, which I\u2019m trying to explain. A levy is collected for purposes that are related to the activity for which it is collected, which in this case is waste. \u201CWaste\u201D is defined in the Waste Minimisation Act, Madam Chair, and I\u2019m happy to read that out to you, because that definition does not change. It\u2019s set out in the definition clause, clause 5: \u201Cwaste\u201D\u2014(a) means any thing [that is] disposed of or discarded; and (b) includes a type of waste that is defined by its composition or source (for example, organic waste, electronic waste, or construction and demolition waste), and (c) to avoid doubt, includes any component of the element of diversion material, if the component or element is disposed of or discarded\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s clearly intended to cover the sorts of things that you dispose of in the various sorts of landfills that we have\u2014not general pollution into the air or general pollution into the water, not greenhouse gas emissions, not water pollution\u2014and yet, the changes that have been made by the House, at the request of the Minister, have changed this legislation. We tried to put amendments to limit the purpose that this could be put to\u2014to waste\u2014and those amendments were voted down by the House, essentially, by the Government members. So that\u2019s why this should not be called a levy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second point is that because of that, we\u2019re not going to fool local government on this. Local government put up with their citizens paying at municipal dumps, because that\u2019s where all the money is collected, essentially\u2014every cent that is collected under this levy\u2014and already it\u2019s a big step for them to give up half of it over to the spending of central government. They put up with that because there are some things that need central government contribution, like facilities that you only have one of in the whole of New Zealand, like\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c398985ae954ac08ec1e5cc2c785d62\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Like glass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225156890cfc21404da0110919b9b92a77\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, and glass schemes throughout the country and things or some of this expensive kit. But they want it all spent on waste. Now, I previously addressed the House as to how we got to the point where local government asked for this to be imposed on their local citizens, with the knowledge that it was going to be recycled into waste minimisation, including by the Government. You be a councillor now and come along and tell your local communities, \u201COh, we\u2019re going to put this up, and, by the way, it\u2019s not going to be spent on waste minimisation. We\u2019re going to spend it down the other end of the country, on a bit of agricultural runoff which is unrelated\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257c1cb62dd0644f98acf3134bedb8774\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: It could still be spent down the other end of the country, but on waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa464313dcf94d0d9006e449b60fe75d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, to the extent that you have facilities that are centralised, they have to be centralised somewhere, and they should be centralised in different parts of the country, actually. But the idea that local councils are now going to put their hand up and say, \u201CWe want to give more money over to the Government, from our people, to spend on things unrelated to us.\u201D, is just complete nonsense, and they\u2019ll see through the fact that this is no longer a waste levy. It\u2019s a taxation to fill in holes that have been created in the same Budget through the Freshwater Improvement Fund, because otherwise the Government\u2019s got no money to spend on the freshwater improvements that this country needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why we will be voting against this title, because it is not a levy, nor is it now about waste, as defined in this very Act. It\u2019s going to broader purposes which are going to, in the end, undermine the consensus that we have achieved, which I think we should be proud of as a country, to do something on solid waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022c529eb7ffb874719b8b6abe9b8d3a0e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c529eb7ffb874719b8b6abe9b8d3a0e8\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to have this opportunity to speak to an amendment which should have just landed on the Table, which is an amendment to the title. It\u2019s on the basis of ensuring that there is as much honesty and integrity in the bill as possible. So that\u2019s about making sure that what\u2019s on the box matches what\u2019s in the box, so to speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c2a770e735d4b28b25b97d2637d0006\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Or the tin, even.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022136dd568ef7b4ec599214da8ecfb1723\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Or the tin\u2014the tin. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd3f2e4aabe544e8819d4987f94510bd\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What on earth does that mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d364fa2d5f64d818ec89499f8a827a5\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019m so pleased that a member across the Chamber has asked for me to provide a little more detail on what the term \u201CWhat\u2019s on the tin is the same as what\u2019s in the tin.\u201D means, or, as another member next to me has just asked, \u201CWhat\u2019s on the box is the same as what\u2019s in the box.\u201D I\u2019m anticipating that this may take me more than five minutes, but I\u2019m fully prepared to take the time required\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dad0a26fb8c44c26901bf58554ea930a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Only if you get to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cb3c46a0ead4fcbb612ea0a3d096935\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to explain. So just to finish the quick explanation, \u201CWhat\u2019s on the box or tin is the same as what\u2019s in the box or tin.\u201D, essentially, means it is what it says it is. So you don\u2019t open the box and find that it\u2019s not what was on the box that\u2019s in the box, and you don\u2019t open the tin and find that it\u2019s not what\u2019s in the tin that was on the tin; you find that it is what it says it is. This brings me to my amendment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225663ed04efde49a19ff46dd54bac34a8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c928e7b260cf4e28b5f568adb6c966e9\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I would like to thank you for the opportunity to explain the amendment further. Currently, the title is the \u201CWaste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill\u201D. My amendment suggests\u2014and it\u2019s probably important to give a bit of background here around specifically what the bill is doing and addressing and around what these proposed amendments are aiming to do. That\u2019s broadening the scope of the activities of the bill so that the levies collected don\u2019t relate just to refuse and rubbish and those things that the bill had, up until this point, been intended for but in fact now shift to being able to mitigate or make good damage caused by other activities or events that have negative environmental impacts. When we start talking about that, we\u2019re talking about chemical runoff and we\u2019re talking about mining and exploratory activities that might happen on land and the necessary\u2014as we all know\u2014steps that have to be taken once those kinds of activities are carried out to clean up the damage that\u2019s done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EWe also know that recently a bill that very much is in the tin\u2014or in the box; the same as what\u2019s on the tin or on the box\u2014is the Fast-track Approvals Bill. My suggestion is that if we\u2019re going to continue in that vein\u2014if we\u2019re going to create bills and have bills moved through the House\u2014and in this instance, today, at great speed, despite my contribution right now\u2014at great speed, then I think that it\u2019s only appropriate for us to accept my amendment, which is to change the title of the bill from the \u201CWaste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill\u201D to something a little more straightforward and a little more related to the other bill that it dovetails in so tidily behind, and that would be to change it to the \u201CWaste Minimisation (Last-track Levy) Amendment Bill\u201D because this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4647719a6bc45839edf759518c4620a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What a load of rubbish\u2014sit down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faeb6d84fb43490a95a9b5d62c461b44\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014will, effectively, become the backstop. A member across the Chamber calls it a load of rubbish. That\u2019s a really relevant heckle to raise at this time because the load of rubbish that the member refers to won\u2019t be able to be addressed because the resource and the funds and the revenue that are generated through the initial bill are going to be tied up in other places doing other things, to other damage that\u2019s caused by activity that\u2019s carried out through the fast-track bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo by making this a sister bill\u2014or a brother bill, if you will; a fellow bill\u2014to the fast-track bill, we would do that by calling it the \u201CWaste Minimisation (Last-track Levy) Amendment Bill\u201D, and I hope that the committee can support my amendment. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd5574826fde41ef9ea5e49243b5498d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd5574826fde41ef9ea5e49243b5498d\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you. It\u2019s a real pleasure to take a call following my esteemed colleague Reuben Davidson and what I thought was a very\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e7079ce78664343b1a5a54e623eafba\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Powerful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227099885e360e4968b67aa033e0c28930\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: It was a powerful contribution. It was a very thoughtful contribution. I want to take some time to talk to my Amendment Paper. I understand that we have a few more Amendment Papers, I think, that may have recently been delivered to the Table from colleagues. I think it\u2019s a good opportunity for us to talk through some of the important details around the title and commencement date in this bill, which is a very important part of the bill that we are discussing in the House this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI have an Amendment Paper that would replace the date for this bill to come into effect, which is currently 1 July 2024 and move that to 31 July 2024, so I thought I might take a few minutes just to explain to the House why I have thought through this date change and why the change in date would be, I think, really, really useful to improve the bill, which is the purpose of the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe first thing is that we\u2019ve had quite a few discussions throughout earlier parts of the bill and in the first and second readings, about the fact that this bill will have an impact on those who collect the levies. So one of the things we want to ensure, because we have seen this before, is that when we put in place changes like this, that we actually give time for it to take effect. It\u2019s only one month until 1 July. It\u2019s 1 June today\u2014first day of winter, and we\u2019ve seen the Wellington wind today that reflects that. I think that giving some extra time is always a wise thing to do, which was one of the reasons why I thought let\u2019s just give this another month to breathe and to take effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut the other reason I thought\u2014which we\u2019ve also discussed in our contributions, is that this date would more closely align with the tax changes that the Government\u2019s looking to introduce. One of the unfortunate things we\u2019ve seen through this Budget and we\u2019re seeing through the legislation that is introduced through this Budget, including the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill, is that the Government is not giving much. Superannuitants are getting $2 a week\u2014giving a little bit on one hand, but on the other hand, they are doing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271dc878e4e9e4813b6392cacc292f664\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just remind the member to come back to the purpose of her amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225998f48c4f8b434e8559669f826b47bb\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Which is exactly why I\u2019ve said that I think we should change the date to 31 July, because these changes are going to increase costs to people who are disposing of their waste\u2014that is what the bill does. So one of the things I think is really important is for us to consider what the impact of that might be on the people at the receiving end of those changes, which is why I\u2019ve suggested that we replace \u201C1 July 2024\u201D with \u201C31 July 2024\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not the only little change that\u2019s coming through. We\u2019ve also discussed, if you will, the changes to the parking ticket costs, if you don\u2019t pay on time, and there are a few other things that are coming in. So I just think it would be good, in my opinion, for the Government to seriously consider lining these things up, because we do have a cost of living crisis\u2014and it has been discussed through other stages of the bill the cost of living challenges that we face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOften, we hear from people who are on low incomes having to dispose of their rubbish and their waste that actually the burden of doing that is quite challenging. Surely we would want people to have that extra $2 or $10 a week in their back pocket so that when these changes take effect, currently on 1 July 2024, but if we were to push that out, people might just have that little bit of extra cash in their bank account to be able to pay for these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I thought quite carefully about the dates that we could look to here. I\u2019d be very interested in hearing from the Minister. I think it would be wonderful, because obviously we want to be able to feel confident that these things have been considered by the Minister, and it\u2019s very useful in a debate such as this that the Minister has had an opportunity to respond, otherwise we might need to take further calls just to clarify some of these genuine questions we\u2019ve made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of my questions is also: has the Minister consulted widely and looked carefully at the impact of having this bill come into effect so soon on 1 July 2024? And would she consider there to be some benefit in pushing that out to 31 July 2024, just to ensure that the legislation can be implemented effectively? So those are my questions to the Minister. I\u2019m really hoping that we may be able to get some answers from her. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f27dc64e4c6d4106a17df0bc03da6a8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f27dc64e4c6d4106a17df0bc03da6a8a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take another call, I\u2019m just going to say there is very little new information coming. Unless there is something more relevant, I will take a closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4f254442c574a2f82cab76c09f35e89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4f254442c574a2f82cab76c09f35e89\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. On this, I would like to ask the Minister some questions around the commencement date. Specifically, I know that previously we have discussed potential projects and all of those things. But one thing that we have not discussed is on page 3 of the supplementary analysis report on identification of savings, which is around that this report that was being produced has not factored in the assessment of specific existing costs, such as current initiatives that reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits, that will fall within the broader purpose of clause 4 that we have discussed before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: has she considered how these current projects that would be affected by the commencement date of 1 July and that fall into the broader scope of clause 4 will be either notified, or the work has been done with them, so that they are able to receive the funding and are able to receive the support from the shift of the funding in Budget lines within a one-month period? I think that is something we haven\u2019t touched on before. On top of that, there is the discussion that I mentioned before on whether the administrative system has done that. But that has already been addressed, so I won\u2019t ask that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIf this is something that the Minister could clarify and if it\u2019s something that has been considered, that would be great. But if it\u2019s something that hasn\u2019t been considered, I would just like to also throw the Green Party\u2019s support behind Rachel Boyack\u2019s Amendment Paper of shifting the commencement date, just so that that way there is sufficient time for these current projects to get the funding and to get that balance that is needed. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d611f5f76e2d4b63ba4acdce52d6e5fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d611f5f76e2d4b63ba4acdce52d6e5fd\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b2c5e5b44db427aa9b3319caaaad20a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00222a3a651a83d9401b9d50fa74e754c3cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a3a651a83d9401b9d50fa74e754c3cb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Reuben Davidson\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 replacing \u201Cwaste disposal levy\u201D with \u201Clast track levy\u201D is out of order as not being a serious amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a2d68a5ceb2346368f17a02c1afdea2c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba1581c6927647a594fe0c1caf07f037\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba1581c6927647a594fe0c1caf07f037\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Rachel Boyack\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 replacing \u201C1 July 2024\u201D with \u201C31 July 2024\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c82ad824c2c24f71ab7ad29fabb714f5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002205f8586f744f4caa9e8057a0bb46d6da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205f8586f744f4caa9e8057a0bb46d6da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002204aeb0b7d15d4b80bcbd2b585a9a7e48\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002256ec703c16034cdda52ce88e113b0e2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256ec703c16034cdda52ce88e113b0e2a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220602faa8adc540f7a8b47884f573f91d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000448\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000449\u0022\u003EHouse resumed. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00223d1aea51fa554b74a85b473c5d0971b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d1aea51fa554b74a85b473c5d0971b2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222ddf6e206fee42708d878d964cd97499\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ddf6e206fee42708d878d964cd97499\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226574c4b768c24db6bc0b8e93a22b7a6f\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd33638bac814f6388d7ec54556ea7a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd33638bac814f6388d7ec54556ea7a7\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI am proud to be presenting this bill that will enable us to be much better placed to deal with some of the environmental challenges facing us, and I think it is important that we have it in place as soon as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThis bill, as part of Budget 2024 legislation, expands the scope of activities the waste disposal levy can be used for under the Waste Minimisation Act 2008. In addition to minimising waste, revenue from the levy will be spent on a wider range of projects supporting the environment. It makes sense to widen the use of the levy to address a broad range of environmental impacts. This is pragmatic, practical, and will lead to direct change on the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThis is a worthwhile bill that will benefit communities affected by an earthquake or cyclone, benefit reuse and recycling businesses, benefit those living near contaminated sites, benefit local authorities, and benefit New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI would like to thank most sincerely the Ministry for the Environment policy officials and legislative drafter for all the wonderful work they have done in preparing this bill so quickly. I commend the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222652e4708ef24e39b91573996a1eb383\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222652e4708ef24e39b91573996a1eb383\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227a8c2a8d0d7c422484059109d3e74b84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a8c2a8d0d7c422484059109d3e74b84\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, it\u2019s been an interesting Saturday morning here in the House. In the rest of the world, it\u2019s June\u2014but not here. I\u2019m still wearing my Music Month badge and here we are, and the calendar is saying it\u2019s 30 May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve been in here on Saturday morning, and I would say it\u2019s a beautiful Saturday morning for anyone who\u2019s beaming in from Dunedin and Christchurch, where it\u2019s a beautiful day, but, of course, we\u2019re here in Wellington. But, of course, we\u2019re always excited to be in this wonderful Parliament, always excited to be scrutinising legislation. It\u2019s much more fun when you\u2019re making it yourself, and that is what I was doing in the last Parliament. I was working with some of the officials that the Minister has just referred to about new waste legislation, because our waste legislation is quite outdated, and we do need to do much better for product stewardship in particular. And that is something that the Minister has talked a lot about in the committee stage of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAnd I think, Madam Speaker\u2014you were in the Chair for some of that, and you might have even made the point that you heard in a lot of contributions on our opposition to this amendment bill that there was a lot of focus on the extension of what the levy can be applied to, what it can be funded on, and this is for the central government half of the levy and that it can now go to anything to do with the environment, which is very wise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe had discussions in the committee stage with the Minister, talking about the life of a product\u2014a product can have many lives, and so it should be extended beyond what is in the current Act, the Waste Minimisation Act. I agree with that. It should apply to the landfills that we have that are contaminated sites and are causing all sorts of problems all around the country, and they\u2019re going to continue to cause problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAnd, yes, it should also apply to emergency situations\u2014no problem with that\u2014but what we\u2019re seeing is this wide extension to anything to do with the environment, with no nexus to waste, none at all with\u2014and this is inserted, by clause 4, into section 3\u2014\u201C(2)(a)(ii) activities that reduce environmental harm or increase environmental benefits;\u201D. There is no nexus there to waste. There could often be a nexus to waste, and the Minister gave some examples of that, but I also gave examples that referred to things like fertiliser running off a farm, nothing to do with waste, going into the waterways and contaminating those waterways, causing a toxic algae bloom and having fish die. That is a terrible environmental thing to happen. I don\u2019t want that to happen, which is why we need to fund our environment properly, and that needs to happen in the Budget and needs to come from different streams that are not associated with a waste levy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThat money needs to come from either some sort of polluter-pays principle\u2014and that\u2019s a different argument that we could have\u2014or a general tax, not a levy. This is a levy, and it\u2019s related to waste, and there needs to be some nexus with that waste. Hence I proposed an amendment\u2014the Greens also proposed amendments\u2014that would have fixed this problem and provided that nexus, but the Government very clearly does not want to do that because they want to have some availability of this fund to pay for things that should be coming from a general tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAnd why they want to do that is because they\u2019ve cut so much in this Budget from the environment. We know the good work that Jobs for Nature has done and the important work that was happening in the Essential Freshwater package. Those things have been cut, as well as the 7.5 percent cut generally throughout the Ministry for the Environment. That is shameful when the environment is so important to our economy. It is just so short-sighted to not be spending the money to prevent pollution from happening in the first place and to do the remediation of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis, of course, is in the context of all else that is happening in the environment at the moment. We had, right at the start of this term, the repeal of the Spatial Planning Act, which would have done much better long-term planning for our infrastructure and our environment. We\u2019ve also had the repeal of the Natural and Built Environment Act, which was looking at environmental outcomes and trying to move the economic activity in the planning system away from the bespoke consent, by consent up the system to the plans and national directions to save everybody money and time, and to do better for the environment as well. That\u2019s gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhat have we got instead? We have a fast-track bill and the purpose of that bill overrides all that other legislation that provided for protections for the environment. That is what the bill does. We come here to question time, noting that we\u2019re not having another question time for some time, and the Prime Minister will say the fast-track bill is going to do better for environmental outcomes. I can only conclude that he has not read it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022518b92d528c243f2abd7d8a3646ba975\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Except that this is not a discussion on the fast-track bill. So can we come back to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022347db58192ae4669afeaad08f1bba103\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc956ed02a574edf96217b708c77090e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, can we link it, please, at least. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a0d51169e914a62a9266a52c304e6fa\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: The fast-track bill has a purpose to facilitate development. That comes before any environmental protections. There need not be any environmental protections in the way that that bill works. It\u2019s totally linked to this bill and totally linked to the Budget, because there will be more environmental pollution and there will need to be more public funds spent to clean up that pollution. And those public funds\u2014well, they should never have to happen in the first place\u2014will need to come from a tax, not from a levy where there is no nexus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThat is the point\u2014again, this is about a waste disposal levy. There is no nexus here. We had a discussion during the committee stage, as well, about the purpose of the Act, and when we put it to the Minister that there should be some nexus, she warned that you\u2019ve got to be careful what you wish for here because the Waste Minimisation Act also provides for product stewardship schemes for things like fluorinated gases, and that\u2019s totally correct. But the product stewardship parts of the Waste Minimisation Act 2008 are not in Part 3, which relates to the levy. They are in another part of the Act where the general purpose of the Act, which doesn\u2019t change, is still to encourage waste minimisation and a decrease in waste disposal in order to protect the environment from harm and provide environmental, social, economic, and cultural benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo any amendment to the amendment in this bill would not have harmed any potential product stewardship scheme for fluorinated gases , and I was encouraged that the Minister made that particular reference because that would be a very good thing to have some movement on, and I hope that she is doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis bill could have been a good bill. Some things that it does are in the regulations at the moment. The regulations set out what the levy is, and they were always going to end in June 2025, and, of course, if we\u2019d been in Government there would have been an amendment to the regulations to extend it out to set the fee. We\u2019re doing that here in this bill, and that\u2019s a fine thing to be doing, but it doesn\u2019t need to be in Budget urgency. The only reason this bill is here, on whatever day it is, in urgency is because of all the cuts in the Budget to the environment, and the Government is desperate to still do some of that spending and so they\u2019re looking for ways to find some money, and the only way they\u2019ve been able to find some money is with this waste minimisation disposal levy. It\u2019s not a levy\u2014this is now a tax. And it\u2019s a cynical move on behalf of the Government to try and dress it up as something green. It is absolutely not. It is the total opposite and it\u2019s totally consistent with the terrible fast-track legislation and everything else we\u2019re seeing from this destructive Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u002218f239eabf054b27bf62a564b90b9e86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218f239eabf054b27bf62a564b90b9e86\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Today we are here talking about waste minimisation and, in particular, the waste disposal levy. Now, our children deserve us to be really serious about climate action, about reducing waste, and about protecting our environment, and this Government is completely unserious about protecting the environment. It is all slash and burn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ENow, sitting here on a long weekend, I know that the other side and all of us here would rather be with our families. I just called my teenagers to let them know that I won\u2019t be seeing them for a while. But we are here, even though we know the Government is going to push this bill through. And I think, why are we here? Why are we here fighting this when we know that they\u2019re going to just push it through without that public consultation, without the select committee process? Well, we are here because it is our job to be the voice for the communities who didn\u2019t get a chance to talk in select committee\u2014the ones who this bill most affects. And it will be on record in the Hansard, and I am so proud of that, and that is why I am prepared to give up time with my family because we are paid to be here for the New Zealand people. And it will be on record in the Hansard that we fought for our next generation so that our tamariki aren\u2019t having to deal with the waste that we are not being serious about dealing with today. So I\u2019m happy to be here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders care about waste minimisation, and they deserve a Government who cares about waste minimisation as well. We have a massive waste problem in this country\u20141.76 billion plastic containers and bottles per year, 17.5 million tonnes of waste per year, overflowing rubbish bins, plastic pollution littering in our rivers. But what this Government wants to do is slash and burn funding for other areas of environment, which my colleagues here have spoken about, and take that money away from waste minimisation, which has a $2.4 billion infrastructure deficit. That deficit means that we are moving away from resource recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve talked about why resource recovery is so important. Resources are finite. Resources are finite and we are just throwing them into a tomb which is our landfill. When we value those precious resources, we invest our waste levy into bold solutions, into solutions that actually make a massive difference for everyday New Zealanders because it\u2019s about system change. It\u2019s not just tinkering with it around at the bottom; it is taking our waste problem seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ENow, Minister Simmonds in the committee of the whole House talked about New South Wales as an example of why we should broaden our definition of what this waste levy can be used for. Well, if the Minister is really serious about us comparing ourselves to New South Wales, then she would have accepted\u2014the Government would have accepted\u2014my amendments to increase the waste levy. Because at the moment, New South Wales is sitting at about $160 per tonne. In New Zealand, we\u2019re at $60 per tonne. So you just have to do the maths there. You cannot compare us to a place that is over double the waste levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders need to come in line with other countries like Australia and the UK, who are putting waste minimisation at the top of their priorities. So what needs to happen in this bill\u2014and I really, really implore the other side to really think about the legacy that will be on record for the future generations when you continue to just let this planet burn. We can make a meaningful impact so that we are not stealing the futures of our tamariki, so that they can have the legacy of abundance that is their birthright, and so that you are putting their futures over a few quick bucks for landlords.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThis bill has huge implications for New Zealand. It is not a pragmatic approach. It is smoke and mirrors. And just because you say you care about the environment, we can actually see that actions speak louder than words, and your actions are speaking very loudly today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da35a29d5dbb4c3b80535b3ac5723f6a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t use the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd3c457b7193487495b5a33cb1fdd5af\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. And the Government\u2019s actions are speaking very loudly today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b287f859be4137b9e46def20f00c09\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e2376a9e50f4bc685ed8d370b3d89c7\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, on this side of the House, we actually have vision. We have a vision for a future where our kids can live on a livable planet, where they can walk to school and there\u2019s fruit hanging from the sidewalks, and they don\u2019t need to go and spend hundreds of dollars on fruit and vegetables every week because it is just everywhere. And do you know what? That is what we can achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EJust like up in the Far North at Roma Marae\u2014a very, very remote part of New Zealand which has a lack of waste infrastructure and not that many shops. So what the community did, because they were resourced by this levy, was bring together the environment hub. They brought together the Community Business and Environment Centre, they brought together Para Kore, they brought together the Panguru kura to all come, because communities actually know the solutions that they need for their communities. They came together. We talked about waste minimisation. We talked about solutions. And together with the community, with the businesses, we decided that, actually, something that would really help with waste minimisation would be growing a food forest. Now, that was three years ago, and that food forest now is providing kai for the tamariki who were there helping grow it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EAnd these are the initiatives that we need to be investing in\u2014local initiatives. And when we understand that New Zealanders care about Papat\u016B\u0101nuku and New Zealanders care about our children\u2019s futures, New Zealanders want this Government to take climate action, and they want the New Zealand Government to take plastic pollution seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThis bill should never have been brought in without consultation. I spoke yesterday to the Zero Waste Network, I spoke to the founder of W\u0101naka Wastebusters, I spoke to the founder of Para Kore, I spoke to the founder of The Rubbish Trip, and all of them say that they want to be heard on this matter. These are the experts who have been doing this work since way before it was cool. But New Zealanders know that waste minimisation is cool. That is why they are out there doing the work, and our Government needs to stop putting all the responsibility for waste minimisation on the people and start being serious and looking at actual system change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWhen I worked at the Ministry for the Environment, I worked in strategic partnerships. That was where we were able to see community, we were able to see business, we were able to see Government come together and work in partnership. Even if we had different worldviews, we were moving towards the same goalpost because we were serious about waste minimisation, and that is where that vision is. It lies with everyday New Zealanders, it lies with community, it lies with the businesses, and the Government needs to come to the table as well. Because when we all put our heads together, when we come up with innovative, clever solutions, we can make a real impact and reduce waste in this country\u20141.76 billion plastic containers and bottles per year; that is not good enough. That is not good enough for our kids and their legacy of abundance that they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to talk about why it\u2019s so important to me that my children and their children and every generation after can live on a livable planet and can have everything that they need to thrive. That\u2019s because nature, Papat\u016B\u0101nuku and Ranginui, provide us everything we need to sustain our lives: mind, body, and soul. So we need to do everything we can to respect and protect Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, and that is what waste minimisation is about. It\u2019s about waste not, want not, it\u2019s about dealing with our own rubbish so that our tamariki and future generations aren\u2019t living on a burnt planet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1d28b20010a4da1bbc7d89942a11df1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1d28b20010a4da1bbc7d89942a11df1\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that was a vapid speech from Kahurangi Carter. This bill provides incentives to reduce waste through a levy. It expands the scope for activities which can be supported to support positive environmental outcomes and, therefore, social outcomes, today and into the future. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00228eab7971ed264444abb51ea2d62851bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228eab7971ed264444abb51ea2d62851bc\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I agree completely with some of the things which have been said around the importance of waste minimisation, the importance of reduction, reducing, and recycling. We also all agree, I think, about the importance of restoring and looking after the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think the Opposition have two key issues. One, which they\u2019re clearly confused about, is: do they want the levy to go up or do they want to keep it down? They seem quite confused about that. The second thing I\u2019d say, in terms of that levy, is that Kahurangi Carter talked about 1.6 billion plastic containers, and, of course, those got put on a policy bonfire by the Labour Government at the beginning of February last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe other thing to mention is that we have an infrastructure deficit\u2014yeah, we agree with that. But we have an infrastructure deficit across every single class of infrastructure, whether it\u2019s roads, whether it\u2019s railways, whether it\u2019s water, or whether it\u2019s landfills. We have an infrastructure deficit right across the board, and that is one of the reasons why, in\u00A0this Budget, we have $1.5 billion to fix some of the infrastructural deficit in education. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022affc989204e943feba7b98875e28ac5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022affc989204e943feba7b98875e28ac5e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E To te Whare. First of all, Madam Speaker, if you\u2019ll indulge me: tuatahi m\u0101ku, ki t\u014Dku wh\u0101ea ki a Moana Sinclair kua riro atu ki roto i te rangi kua pahure ake nei. Ki t\u014Dku wh\u0101ea ki a Hinerangi Puru kua riro atu ki te p\u014D. Kotahi tonu te k\u014Drero ki a r\u0101ua tahi: haere mai h\u0101ere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[Firstly for me, to acknowledge Moana Sinclair, who has recently passed away. And to my aunt Hinerangi Puru who has travelled to the night. There is only but one thing to say to you both: welcome and farewell.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EFirst, I wanted to acknowledge Moana Sinclair, a lawyer and a staunch advocate for M\u0101ori rights, who, sadly, passed away in the past two days, and also Hinerangi Puru, who, for many of us, and all of us that have been to Waitangi, is one of those special kuia who you know where she stands on matters\u2014she\u2019s very direct and very upfront about how she feels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhy is it important to acknowledge both of them, but in particular, for me, coming from up north, Hinerangi Puru? Hinerangi is the daughter of Dame Whina Cooper. Dame Whina Cooper, of course, led the famous land march here to Parliament, leaving her home in P\u0101nguru, in the Far North and making the march all the way down here. The slogan and the k\u014Drero that she gave everyone that marched with her was \u201CNot one more acre.\u201D Now, people think that\u2019s just simply an acre of land. That\u2019s a far too simplistic way to look at a very complex and intelligent woman. \u201CNot one more acre\u201D meant looking after the land too. It meant let\u2019s care for our environment; let\u2019s make sure that if we aren\u2019t losing any more acreage, we leave it in a better state for our tamariki and our mokopuna. So I want to acknowledge Hinerangi Puru, who passed away, sadly, and will be on her marae this evening in P\u0101nguru. That\u2019s important, because I stand to oppose the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill. Once upon a time, I was a civil defence Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc49e8defdde4b95992509c7454e5ad6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014a very good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d2ba92d9d7245d9b785aa8ab75838ea\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. I thoroughly enjoyed the role. Nobody enjoys being in places where emergencies and tragedies are happening, but it was a role that I relished and I enjoyed meeting amazing people who did amazing things. One of the fallouts, though, was that it wasn\u2019t just the event itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMany of the people in this House will remember when the flood took place in the West Coast and an old landfill ended up washing into the river. Many people from the South Island know what needs to happen with a matter called \u201Cdross\u201D: where it goes, what happens if it touches water, and how it impacts people. For those people in that township down in the South Island, poor waste management policies and poor waste management practices by corporate bodies in this country continue to affect our communities far and wide. So my point to this Minister for the Environment is: it\u2019s no good just looking at the levy. Let\u2019s have a good hard look at all the suites of policies and legislation that can allow communities to do the right things with their waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOf course, Mr Foster has said that he\u2019s a little confused. All the parties on this side of the House have clearly said we\u2019re happy for the levy to go up, but what we don\u2019t want to see it do is be spread even more thin, right across the country. It\u2019s got to be far more specific and far more deliberate, or what\u2019s going to happen is we\u2019re going to have more and more cases like dross in Mataura.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022585a24f31bc04186b3085c53ebe6fd75\u0022\u003EHon Penny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Removed years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296dced1374fe4e6eaf92e1be9cb37fa5\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re going to have more and more riverbank washouts in the West Coast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnd Penny Simmonds might bark back from the other side of the House, but that Minister needs to know that very soon those things will come home to roost. Without good planning and without consultation with the public and the community, what\u2019s going to happen is, through this bill, the p\u016Btea, or the levy, will be spread even further and far afield. It\u2019ll be a case of giving with one hand and punching you in the puku with the other. That\u2019s what\u2019s going to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESadly, what it also does is it blurs what\u2019s good investment\u2014it\u2019s not deliberate enough. It says, \u201COh, we\u2019re going to invest in this because we think it\u2019s good for the environment.\u201D That\u2019s not good enough. We need this to go towards more waste minimisation initiatives\u2014ones that are already set up; ones that are working well in our community to further support the work that\u2019s being done. My colleagues right across on this side of the House have given fantastic examples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo my final words are: to the wh\u0101nau out there who do this mahi, thank you. Don\u2019t lose hope. We\u2019re here for you. You might not have been able to find your voice on this particular bill, because it\u2019s being rammed through unnecessarily, but here we are, standing up for you. I oppose this bill. I\u2019m really saddened that the Minister had the opportunity to work constructively with this side of the House and failed to take it. It\u2019s because of that, we\u2019re going to go even harder into the evening. I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u002243d475510c5e4a9988ec35284b4a9299\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243d475510c5e4a9988ec35284b4a9299\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256cff9a8c4d246aea671c2f9afb73427\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022806040c092ce4f0caf8bf7adcf26424c\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go\u2014you are right about that. There is no away place, Andy Foster. There is no away place. Waste needs somewhere to go\u2014waste needs somewhere to go\u2014and if you don\u2019t put it in the right place, it causes a legacy of toxic mess for generations to come. And right now, all across this country, the public is having to pay for cleaning up a bad history of waste management. There are dozens of sites across every district in this country\u2014in fact, up to hundreds of sites\u2014that need to be managed, and we are still creating the problem. We are still landfilling millions of tonnes of waste that should not be going to landfill. The reason that we, the Green Party, under N\u00E1ndor T\u00E1nczos, put up the Waste Minimisation Act was to address that, and it was supported and taken on board by the Labour Party. And they will also at some point support our very wise proposition for increasing the actual volume of the levy, because we like to bring the Parliament with us on what needs to be done to address this very important issue\u00A0of waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThere is no away place, and when the levee breaks, we have no place to stay. What do I mean by that? I mean that the levy, as rightly articulated by my colleagues David Parker and Rachel Brooking, is a very important thing that we all agree on. We agree on the levy, and we agree it should be increased, but if you start frittering it away on the wrong things, you are squandering that vital\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a334b06a22684e828713516cc7e9fdd7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t use the word \u201Cyou\u201D. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc3601e75b2040ac8b9bab6eb493747f\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon me. Madam Speaker, I\u2019m really sorry. I am genuinely trying to work on that thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed235c41d33149b0b4a060c370e57179\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You are not alone, Mr Abel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271fa862cf10b4b22becf12859ecc7387\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that it\u2019s against the rules, and I apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223641d59b72c74119bbb32314f827d865\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll never walk alone!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213f9289d92ba440a80a353828244f78c\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014over the hills and far away. If we waste the levy on things it is not designed for, we fail to actually mitigate the waste problem; we fail to actually accumulate the money that we need to build the infrastructure to actually deal with the waste problem. And that is a crime. That is a terrible thing to pass down to future generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s more, this amendment to the Act actually means that you can use this waste levy for cleaning up things that were produced by other industries, such as acid mine drainage from the coal industry, such as tailings failure. Tailings dams, if you don\u2019t know about them, are a consequence of the mining industry. There\u2019s a massive one outside Waih\u012B full of cyanide. They commonly fail around the world, and they commonly kill people when they fail, and they cost a lot of money to clean up. Why is there not a levy on the mining industry to address the legacy of that industry\u2019s cost? Why is the levy being put instead on municipal waste to cover the cost of the effects of contaminated sites from the mining industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThat is an absolute failure, and this Government here, this \u201Ccoal-ition\u201D Government, want to do even more of that mining. They want to do even more of that mining and create even more of those acid mine drainage sites and those toxic tailings dam levees that in extreme weather events\u2014which we\u2019re seeing more and more of because of climate change, which is caused by coal burning, coincidentally, in case no one knew. Because climate change is going to cause more extreme weather events, it is in those circumstances of huge rainfall that you get more tailings dam failures. So we are facing that risk as a consequence of climate change. Why is there not a levy put on the oil, gas, and coal industry, the \u201Cdrill, baby, drill\u201D industry that this \u201Ccoal-ition\u201D Government want to have more of? Why is there not a levy put on them to clean up the mess that they are going to\u00A0create?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThat is where the levy for those toxic site contamination cleanups should be coming from, not from municipal waste, not from construction waste, not from the things that this waste levy was designed to do. That is why we will be voting against this bill\u2014that is why we will be voting against this bill\u2014and when the Government is ready to have a conversation about how we do a waste levy well, we\u2019ll be there for it, Scott Simpson. We\u2019ll be there for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022abb204e321a34e179a763f32d20c4248\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abb204e321a34e179a763f32d20c4248\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s something truly bizarre about a Green Party that is railing against a piece of practical, prudent environmental legislation that is designed to entirely fund exactly the sort of thing they\u2019re complaining about, like the Fox River disaster that occurred in 2019. Now, I\u2019m delighted, on behalf of this side of the House, to commend this bill to the House, because it represents everything that is good about a blue-green approach to environmental-practical approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00228c62e3a1546b41a58fee46fad7a44c28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c62e3a1546b41a58fee46fad7a44c28\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have moments, and I did last night, where I have a pregnant pause because sometimes I am flabbergasted. This is a debating chamber and we\u2019re supposed to debate the elements of legislation that come through. And it\u2019s hard to respond when there\u2019s been little debate because there\u2019s not much said from the Government side. But the previous speaker who just resumed his seat feels like this is good environmental practice and law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EBut this legislation is actually around waste minimisation. That\u2019s what was on the tin when it was created in 2008. That\u2019s what it was there to do. And there\u2019s a real challenge, as we look at this, because it\u2019s doing things now that it wasn\u2019t intended to do. Yeah, of course we agree we want to do everything we can to protect our environment, but then the challenge is that they take money from the Ministry for the Environment. They take money away from protecting nature. They take money away from climate change. So they\u2019ve got to find it somewhere else, and so they extend this legislation. They make a huge chasm where they can dump all their rubbish and all their silly ideas into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, this is a debating chamber and we need to be debating these issues. But, again, when it\u2019s 30-second, 20-second calls, it\u2019s hard to engage in a good debate. But, thankfully, this side of the House have been constructive and have brought good ideas and we look forward to implementing them in 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe original Act, in 2008, was to promote and achieve waste minimisation\u2014to promote and to achieve waste minimisation. That\u2019s it\u2014a levy. And, as the Hon David Parker mentioned in the committee stage, this isn\u2019t about a levy; this is about a tax now, because suddenly it broadens everything out. And it\u2019s not about waste minimisation; it is about finding dollars and cents to throw at the environment because they have purged and plundered. And, when he spoke about that\u2014I didn\u2019t get a chance in the committee stage to speak on the title, but I had thought about some ideas of what it could have been, what the title could have been on this bill. And one of them I had thought about was maybe it could have been the \u201CWaste Minimisation (It Looks Like a Tax; It Sounds Like a Tax; It Smells Like a Tax; It Takes Like a Tax; Let\u2019s Call it a Levy) Act\u201D. But, obviously, I didn\u2019t get that one through. I think it would have been good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWhy I bring that up is because officials have actually talked about this. Officials have, in one of the key documents, talked about the fact that in accordance with Treasury guidelines for setting changes in the public sector, in practice, fees and levies might not fit into discreet categories and could be considered as being on a spectrum. And it goes on to say that, in this way, a levy might be more akin to a tax. This is a tax. It smells like a tax. It takes like a tax. It is a tax, because, initially, of course, you would have your construction waste. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd91c2f0ec664a3587817744482ed1c2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, not \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022255bd24e0b3948f6b739474f40c1c735\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Someone would have\u2014well, I know where you live and I know that you\u2019re into\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262fdaee3ad964375a822e84ce8ab58a6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know where you live, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223c9b2dc3cac43689ab5cfbd72202589\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014home renovations, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248b414c5bc7c4f329bc4605eaed648f2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before anyone gets upset about that, we\u2019re almost neighbours; so don\u2019t worry about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277192832a4ed48279da7dcac817337a0\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. It does sound a bit weird; I apologise. DIY projects\u2014so you want to do a renovation. Someone wants to do a renovation in their kitchen. Someone wants to, you know, develop the sleep-out. And, of course, they have bits of leftover timber, and, whether they\u2019re treated or untreated, they take them to the dump. They pay a levy because that money from the levy then goes to support initiatives that reduce waste. So, now, when somebody\u2014it wouldn\u2019t be myself because I\u2019m a horrific home improvement person; it would be someone like the Hon Duncan Webb, probably, would be renovating his ancient abode in Christchurch there. And he\u2019ll take his waste to the dump and he will pay a fee. He will pay a tax because that money won\u2019t go into waste minimisation; it could, but it might end up in environmental projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo, of course, we think that\u2019s great, but it\u2019s not what the bill was about when it was created more than 15 years ago. So we really want to address\u2014well, I don\u2019t want to offend elephants\u2014the issues in the room today. And the reason we\u2019re here in urgency, the reason we are sitting here discussing this, is because the Government cuts, cuts, cuts on all fronts when it comes to our environment, on all fronts when it comes to climate change. They took money out on 30 June. They took a lot of money out\u2014millions and millions of dollars\u2014and so they need to make up for it somewhere else. So \u201COh, we\u2019ve got this little wee bill over here that probably doesn\u2019t need to go through urgency because it probably doesn\u2019t meet the threshold, but, hey, we\u2019ll just try it anyway.\u201D And here we are without the ability for infrastructure companies, without the ability for construction companies, without the ability for green waste companies, without the ability for home DIYers to actually speak into this and talk about these levies, talk about these fees, talk about what they think this money should be used for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe narrow criteria was meaningful. The narrow criteria had a purpose around waste minimisation. And so here we are\u2014here we are. For most New Zealanders, it\u2019s 1 June. It\u2019s the first day of winter. But here we are on 30 May and it\u2019s cold, and it\u2019s cold and it\u2019s depressing in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo, what was this for? So, hopefully, the Government MPs know what this was for. It was around things like curb-side collection. It was around things like the assets and infrastructure to ensure food and green waste, that we still want to do. It was about organic waste - processing facilities. It was around resourcing for the recovery for infrastructure, where they get rid of construction waste. It was around projects that must be directly diverted from landfills. And, now, some of that might happen, but not all the time. Some of it might happen but it\u2019s going to be money\u2019s going to be sprinkled over here; money\u2019s going to be sprinkled over there; money\u2019s going to be sprinkled, sprinkled everywhere. And it\u2019s not\u00A0good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI also had done some thinking around the title, because, again, I\u2019m just unsure because the word \u201Clevy\u201D is triggering, and it is, I know, for all sides of the House. But I did have a look and have a think and I would have liked to have seen some ideas pass, but, unfortunately, it didn\u2019t happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAnother idea I had was the \u201CWaste Minimisation Fiscal Savings for Budget 2024 Act\u201D, but, you know, didn\u2019t quite meet the threshold. Then there was the \u201CWaste Minimisation that Occurs Through the Life of a Product Act\u201D, which the Hon Penny Simmonds talked about. Then I talked about the \u201CWaste Minimisation Finding Funds for Nature from this Act Because We Didn\u2019t Use It in the Other Acts\u201D, but that probably isn\u2019t going to work either. Then there was the \u201CWaste Minimisation Wasted, Wasted Acts\u201D, but that just sounded a little bit dodgy and some people were really struggling with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EBut then I did have, and I think this is important\u2014and I think this is a serious one. I think this actually could have been the bill. Because, as we know, and as one of my colleagues said earlier, the title is actually really important. When you go somewhere and you see a name on something, you know what you\u2019re getting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c91cb2d3db724cdcaf2b53b5594138dc\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Here comes the standing ovations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c67a02d49d1477b9c3e793b46f6e35f\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m happy for a standing ovation. I\u2019d really appreciate that, because I think what we\u2019re doing is pushing on something because nature is not standing and giving an ovation. Nature is not happy with what this Government is doing. And it was the \u201CWaste Minimisation (Don\u2019t You Know That It\u2019s Toxic?) Act\u201D. I don\u2019t know. I was going to sing it, but I thought I better not because I might put the House into disrepute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIn closing, I think we really need to consider what has gone on in the last three days\u2014what has gone on\u2014whether it is our environment and ignoring it, whether it\u2019s our climate and ignoring it, whatever it is. This Budget was terrible for the environment. It\u2019s an outrage; it\u2019s wrong. And you know what? When you look at 4,000 fauna and flora that only are found in this country, when you look at world regulations and world bodies mocking New Zealand for the way that we are treating our environment, I am offended, and it is wrong that we should allow cuts in some places and then sprinkles and nickels and dimes in others to feel like we\u2019re appeasing our environment, to feel like we\u2019re appeasing our climate. I think we need to totally scrap this and start again. I think we need to consider what we\u2019re doing for the environment. I think we need to start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022419bc313a0a34b0bbbb3b346a9632888\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022419bc313a0a34b0bbbb3b346a9632888\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This bill is a good bill. It\u2019s a win for in the environment. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229abed219e0d146c084c91a245c1d3d8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229abed219e0d146c084c91a245c1d3d8f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec615d3148644a2a8a6fb2247161ae11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec615d3148644a2a8a6fb2247161ae11\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, I rise to take a call\u2014I did try to ask some questions in the committee stage, but I want to come back to this waste minimisation bill that is before us. Labour opposed this bill because we don\u2019t see the value in diminishing the relationship in terms of broadening the criteria of the levy that we\u2019ve all been talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EMany of my colleagues on this side of the House have traversed a number of reasons why the bill is not being supported on this side of the House, and one of the things that I wanted to raise was the fact that many communities throughout Aotearoa have heavy industry belts. What that means is industries that do quite a lot of damage to not just the air but also to the soil, and communities such as M\u0101ngere, such as a couple in South Auckland, are having to put up with industries who are contaminating the soils, who have industries such as recycling plants but are not taking care of things like scrap metal. And when you have a disaster in your local community that produces a fire because the current legislative requirements have not been met, Fire and Emergency have to tackle that\u2014block the roads for two days; there\u2019s a big fire and in that particular industry. So all the things that come out of an incident like that affect local communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I wanted to raise that was in the analysis was the pace that this bill has been written at. The analysis and the modelling I would really question, because of the impacts on local communities and the limited assessment, particularly when you don\u2019t have a select committee process, when you don\u2019t have the voice of our community to raise issues right across the motu. And especially our rangatahi. In my local area, our rangatahi, our young people have been very, very active because this impacts on their future. So I want to raise on their behalf that part of the waste minimisation initiatives must include education\u2014education of cause and effects. And my hope is that the Government needs to listen to the voices of their communities because we are here because of our communities. So when our communities don\u2019t have a voice, we need to stand up as members and represent their voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EEducation is important because the waste minimisation speaks about that environmental harm, and in local communities, whether you\u2019re from rural, whether you\u2019re from an urban environment, many of our young people want to be involved in the good initiatives because they understand the environmental harm. And this bill doesn\u2019t provide the context in which young people can get involved in actually pushing their views forward, because they\u2019re really concerned about their environmental space, particularly in the urban areas. And when you come from backgrounds such as M\u0101ori\u00A0 such as Pasifika, such as ethnic, then how do you input into laws of the land that you don\u2019t even get a look in? When you don\u2019t have stakeholder consultation, when you don\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc19ae2cd25a44bfafbefea5341c0d6d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can we just avoid the use of the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248b55dba1488433995c613f1eef2cf59\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, Madam Speaker. You\u2019ve said that to nearly every person that stood up and I do apologise. It is really important that we receive stakeholder feedback in every process of the legislative chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI wanted just to, quickly in my time that is left, reinforce as to why Labour is opposing this specific bill\u2014because it just weakens, it doesn\u2019t provide the opportunity for the public to raise specific issues around remediation of contaminated areas, around freshwater improvement, and specifically when you\u2019ve got a large youth population and communities who don\u2019t necessarily understand as to the environmental impacts. So this levy that is going to be collected doesn\u2019t really benefit; it\u2019s an indirect benefit for our local communities. And that\u2019s why I want to stand up and advocate that as part of the suite of options, education around protecting our environment is very, very important. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u00220b8d8a15f7ac4ae992c7537aadaaa7bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b8d8a15f7ac4ae992c7537aadaaa7bb\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E This bill would make us better placed to deliver better environmental outcomes, so I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef91876c559e40b4be21368fc7a3258b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef91876c559e40b4be21368fc7a3258b\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to speak once again\u2014in such a short space of time\u2014on this bill. I did, when I spoke earlier, reference the fact that this morning, when I was getting a coffee before\u00A0coming into the House, someone asked me at the place where we get coffee whether\u00A0we\u00A0were getting tired. At the time I said, \u201CNo, we\u2019re just getting started.\u201D We\u2019re just getting started. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc6345fd19434de6859044a72a1d101d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You look tired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224382e11473434318b577c8d5e123dab3\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: A member across the House just shouted that I look tired. Obviously, that member hasn\u2019t looked at the policy they\u2019re putting forward\u2014that\u2019s tired. But then, at lunch, the person at lunch said, \u201CNow you must be getting tired.\u201D, and I said, \u201CNo, we\u2019re just getting going.\u201D, because we are just getting going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, I don\u2019t want to waste any time, but I will make sure that I go slowly through this speech, because there are so many points that I need to cover off in this last opportunity, due to this rushed process. What I would say is that whilst this Government is wasting no time moving this bill through, they are trashing the process\u2014trashing the process. There are several issues to cover in this call, and I\u2019m going to struggle to fit it all in but I will do my best\u2014I will do my best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the impacts on community, and this will come up in a few parts of this speech because this process today has excluded community, and we know that this bill and its effects will really affect our communities. I\u2019m going to revisit one of the things that I spoke about in my earlier speech. The Minister said that it didn\u2019t really sit in the purview of this bill, but I think that it\u2019s important that we revisit it, because it\u2019s exactly what happens when communities are adversely affected by the impacts of waste facilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThis is our beautiful estuary environment in Christchurch East, a stunning natural environment. It\u2019s home to the river, the estuary, and the ocean. It has native flora and fauna. Native and exotic bird species nest there. It\u2019s a beautiful, beautiful place. But it\u2019s also home to an organics processing plant, and there\u2019s been a long and ongoing issue with the smell that is generated by that organics processing plant. It\u2019s a really, deeply offensive smell. It\u2019s very hard to live with, and it has really affected local residents, many of whom can\u2019t stay in their homes when that smell hits their houses at night. It\u2019s affected schools, where kids can\u2019t leave their classroom to eat their lunch, to play in their playground, or to ride their bike or their scooter home. It\u2019s really affected communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EJust to give a sense of how deep that effect is, I just wanted to read you the time line of the process that it took\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edfc0e03bc754417b2a1ab3510f54710\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just ask the member\u2014I understand the gravity of that situation, but I would like the link to come back to the waste minimisation bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240a4a0241db94e8bbf1c179100054114\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: It definitely will\u2014it definitely will. It ties directly into my first amendment. But thank you very much for reminding me of that, Madam Speaker. I think you will find it directly links to the amendment that I wasn\u2019t able to speak to at that stage of the bill this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EOn 20 January 2021, an abatement notice was issued to the organics processing plant requiring that there be no offensive and objectionable odour beyond the boundary after 31\u00A0January 2022; 1 February 2022, Environment Canterbury issues notice of non-compliance to the organics processing plant; 2 June 2022, Environment Canterbury issued notice of non-compliance to the organics processing plant; 4 June, another non-compliance notice; 31 August, a formal investigation into odours across eight dates; 19 December, another notice; 10 January, a non-compliance notice; 15 January; 19 January; 26 January\u2014and on it goes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271053b115c3547dbbf9d5bf26b22ff7a\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The last time we were on a third reading, we were instructed quite clearly by the Speaker to stick to the bill. He has gone a long, long way from the bill and hasn\u2019t come anywhere near it for a very long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8dc5c4eae034971bb7ffbe11810bce2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER:\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that point of order. I am listening for the connection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b4efe986b82447bb42cd1a0deb27891\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that point of order, Madam Speaker. If I may, this has cropped up before under urgency, particularly Budget urgency, where we haven\u2019t\u00A0had an opportunity to study this and prepare a great deal in advance. Speaker\u2019s ruling 137/1 makes it quite clear that where a bill is passed through all stages under urgency, there\u2019s a much wider approach than is normally the case, and that\u2019s a ruling by Mr Mallard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c75a2be16f64b7da1d821bd125f0714\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER:\u003C/span\u003E I do understand that, Dr Webb. I would just like some linkage please. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba0f23c258c740de9f30f89779ba7c75\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, Madam Speaker. Thank you, Madam Speaker. The good news is that I can now move on to how that sequence of dates and that community activity links into the point I was wanting to raise about the first amendment. That first amendment was a suggestion to change\u2014or a request to change; an amendment to change\u2014two words, and it\u2019s because words really matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, if you want an example of how much words matter, here\u2019s a really good example. \u201CYou will get X\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022123cb8ceef8a41e7aa5607578145de13\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d690fe779f4c2fa37ab20af4828d43\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d1459e56cb0494b99ee8f07a200c26f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re really struggling today. Everyone\u2019s getting tired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262f9ff0adde14701938a4964a4f82ddb\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: I was so sure I wasn\u2019t going to say it\u2014so sure I wasn\u2019t going to say it. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f68027349973447eb1b173cc66c94067\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Let\u2019s give Mr Davidson a chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd3bb954d2b346af84b4a68c26d68d86\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ll get back to my example of how much words matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234451a476b7d4488afe779b620aefadd\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, must you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dfaf48fa3b34dbca14573d8b87bd977\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: I must\u2014I must. Here\u2019s how words matter. \u201CMembers are entitled to X.\u201D\u2014members are entitled to X. Now, how different is it when you say, \u201CMembers are entitled to up to X.\u201D It\u2019s entirely different\u2014entirely different. X becomes two different things when you add two words\u2014\u201Cup to\u201D\u2014in front of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe two words I want to talk about in my suggested amendment was the difference between\u2014and I\u2019ve got them here because I think it\u2019s really important that we focus on the detail of these. One of those words was \u201Csociety\u201D\u2014society\u2014and my amendment suggested changing it to \u201Ccommunity\u201D. Now, \u201Csociety\u201D can be defined as an organisation or club formed for a particular purpose or activity, and the definition of \u201Ccommunity\u201D is the conditions of sharing or having certain attitudes and interests in common. So words do matter because there\u2019s quite a big difference between society and community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe sequence of dates\u2014and the point that I was making with that sequence of dates\u2014that wasn\u2019t a society; that was a community working together to challenge a council and to challenge a process that was taking place and was having a really detrimental effect on their community, not on their society. Hence my request in my amendment to change that word, because words do matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, the second amendment, which was to change the title to being the \u201CWaste Minimisation (Last-track Levy) Amendment Bill\u201D, was because it really is the mechanism of this bill now to be a very, very, very small safety net for some of the very, very, very big negative impacts that projects given permission by the fast-track bill will have on environments and on communities. So for those who don\u2019t remember the reference at the time, I said, \u201CWhat\u2019s in the box should be what\u2019s on the box\u201D, but, in fact, what I should have said is, \u201CWhat\u2019s in the tin should be what\u2019s on the tin\u201D. So for anyone who got lost, \u201Cin the tin; on the tin\u201D not \u201Cin the box; on the box\u201D. So that was \u201Cwhat\u2019s in the tin should be what\u2019s on the tin\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba8839dbc41246b5b1f30d552431e496\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What about the bottle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022227122126c0d4939977edb0860614dbf\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: A member did suggest talking about the bottle. I think it\u2019s probably best that we don\u2019t talk about the bottle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EWhat I did think would be important would be to talk about the reason that this bill has been pushed through in such haste, and we know that\u2019s because the cuts that have been made in this Budget today, 30 May, are going to leave a really big shortfall in environmental spending. What\u2019s required is that the small amounts of existing revenue are then funnelled into other activities\u2014so taken away from where they\u2019re currently hypothecated\u2014and the scope of this bill is broadened out so they can be used in other places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re looking at here in this Budget is cuts to environment operating funding of close to $400 million. That\u2019s $400 million. That\u2019s a lot. It\u2019s a sixth of what landlords\u2014mega landlords\u2014got in tax cuts in this Budget, but it\u2019s a huge, huge and disgraceful amount of money to claw out of environmental spending, and I can\u2019t imagine how anyone will sleep well tonight. I certainly hope they won\u2019t before midnight. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2a9aa41044d46039a9393a4b22a8b0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2a9aa41044d46039a9393a4b22a8b0d\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is about time we got this bill passed. So, with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d55eb62ebf9d46069a0e4080d96be7df\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000586\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c675f97074ec492690823c699377e46b\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228afcb514e41e46d0a5173bc40c3edd7b\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4ffe95fb8b94fb998f9d51e8255f82e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4ffe95fb8b94fb998f9d51e8255f82e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Local Government: I present a legislative statement on the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267b32cf9e09f402693a168ef8f686844\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba520147f2aa49e3bb17e3a36bdb6ad4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangement) Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Finance and Expenditure Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 18 July 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196, and that the committee\u2019s powers be extended under Standing Order 295(1)(b) to consider out-of-scope amendments set out on Amendment Paper 41, in the name of the Hon Simeon Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to bring the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill to the House. This bill is a critical piece of legislation that makes up the second step of Local Water Done Well, which is our coalition Government\u2019s plan for addressing New Zealand\u2019s water infrastructure challenges. New Zealand\u2019s longstanding water infrastructure challenges require locally led and financially sustainable solutions. Labour attempted to reform water services with their unpopular mega-entity, co-governed model, which cost taxpayers $1.25 billion and was overwhelmingly rejected by communities. In February this year, we completed the first step of Local Water Done Well and delivered on our election promise and the 100-day plan commitment to restore council ownership and control of water services by putting an end to Labour\u2019s three waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe bill that I\u2019m presenting today sets the foundation for future delivery and regulation of water services. It enables councils to self-determine their pathway to financially sustainable delivery models. We are not here to impose a one-size-fits-all approach on councils, which know their communities best. Their local decision-making is key to this\u00A0bill. However, I expect councils will work collaboratively to address affordability challenges and achieve sustainable models for water services. Any councils who are wanting to move quickly to adopt a new delivery model can do so. They can establish or amend a water services council-controlled organisation with the help of the streamlined consultation and decision-making processes in this bill. These do not override the existing mechanisms in local government legislation but provide an easier pathway for councils to work together. We want to remove barriers to those who already know how they can move to better models, especially if it will ease future cost pressures for consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EA preliminary arrangement set out in this bill will require councils to prepare water services delivery plans within 12 months of enactment. Through these plans, councils will demonstrate that their approach to delivering drinking, waste, and stormwater services is financially sustainable and will meet regulatory standards for water and infrastructure quality. This will require the ring-fencing of funding so that sufficient revenues are allocated to maintain those assets and operations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve provided a practical approach for developing these plans. Councils are able to collaborate on water services delivery. If they decide to, they can jointly submit a plan. There is flexibility for councils in a joint plan to deliver their stormwater services individually or jointly with the other councils in the joint arrangement. These plans have a dual purpose. Not only will they provide transparency on the current state of council water services, infrastructure, and delivery; they will also provide assurance to communities as to how their council intends to deliver these future services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI recognise that some councils may face challenges in developing these plans. That is why there will be check-in points on progress and technical assistance available for those who may be struggling. Through this bill, we are enabling the appointment of a Crown facilitator and Crown water service specialist, who may assist or prepare a plan on the council\u2019s behalf. Specific information in the plans, including baseline information about council water services, operations, assets, revenue, and projected capital expenditure, will help the Commerce Commission develop a full economic regulatory regime for water services later this year. To assist with that work, the bill also provides for some councils to be subject to further information disclosure. This is intended for councils that have more advanced asset or financial management practices, or those that moved quickly to\u00A0establish new water organisations and are ready for a faster track towards more detailed\u00A0oversight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EFinally, this bill features legislative changes that will enable Auckland Council to implement its preferred approach for future water services delivery, with significant benefit for Aucklanders. Earlier this year, Watercare projected that there would be a 25.8\u00A0percent increase in water rates for their customers in July, but our Government was not going to let this happen. The 25.8 percent water rate hike would have piled costs on to Aucklanders already struggling with the prolonged cost of living crisis, increasing average annual household water rates by $348. The previous Government spent $1.2\u00A0billion on three waters and did not deliver a solution for Watercare. This Government spent less than half a million dollars and found a solution in six months. By financially separating Watercare from Auckland Council, Watercare can take on additional debt to fund their water infrastructure over a longer period of time. This will allow Watercare to limit this year\u2019s water rate increases to a much more palatable 7.2 percent. Based on an evaluation by Standard \u0026amp; Poor\u2019s, this will be achieved with no new constraints on Auckland Council\u2019s borrowing capacity or credit rating. In fact, Auckland Council will be able to access even more funds to continue its investment in key projects, including improving transport infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EMembers on the opposite side of the House, including the former Minister himself, claimed that three waters would have delivered lower rates rises than Local Water Done Well, but what they failed to own up to is the fact that three waters would have meant that Watercare would not be able to afford the infrastructure that Auckland needs, as rate rises were capped. Advice I\u2019ve received shows that Labour\u2019s three waters included very dubious quote assumptions. Labour\u2019s plan did not add up, which is why our New Zealanders reject three waters. The reality is, nine of Labour\u2019s 10 mega-entities had worse than investment-grade stand-alone credit ratings. They would have failed to access finance without Crown-backed support. Even \u201CEntity A\u201D needed a Crown-backed liquidity facility to lift it from BBB to AA, in an inconvenient truth for members on the opposite side of the House. While some say that Watercare could have been handed over to debtors in an effort to privatise, this is simply not true. Watercare is protected against privatisation through existing legislation. Labour\u2019s attempt to force a one-size-fits-all approach to water service delivery would have meant Aucklanders could not afford the infrastructure they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThis bill provides a statutory underpinning for Auckland\u2019s new Local Water Done Well arrangement. It means Watercare, rather than Auckland Council, will have the legislative responsibility for delivering drinking and waste-water services to Aucklanders. A Crown monitor will be appointed to Watercare as an interim regulator to make sure Aucklanders pay fair prices for water services delivered to an acceptable quality. They will also ensure that Watercare is investing sufficiently in its infrastructure. This will be a temporary arrangement until the Commerce Commission establishes full economic regulation. I have worked alongside Auckland Council and Mayor Brown to prioritise local decision-makers in achieving this outcome. I\u2019m pleased with the swift progress toward a sustainable model for water services in Auckland, achieved through the unanimous vote by the council. I thank the mayor and council for working with me to achieve this change. Labour said that our plan wouldn\u2019t work, but the plan we\u2019ve delivered for Auckland shows that it is possible for councils to implement their own preferred models for water services delivery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m confident that we are giving local government the flexibility and the tools to choose the outcome of their water services delivery and bring benefits to their community\u2014the Watercare model adopted by Auckland Council is evidence of that. However, our work is not yet complete. We have a lot of work to do to ensure we give certainty to all councils and communities across New Zealand. Local Water Done Well enhances local government\u2019s delivery of water services by emphasising local government decision-making, robust water quality rules, and easier access to financing the long-term investment and critical infrastructure. We\u2019re working at pace to provide details on the broader range of structural and financing tools which will be available to councils to ensure that they can access the long-term debt required by their water services. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022201538bb8a1c4559a81cd5a15208f48c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022201538bb8a1c4559a81cd5a15208f48c\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It says a lot about this Government that they are rushing this bill through the House. The Minister who read the statement wasn\u2019t even prepared for it and didn\u2019t even have the time to change the language. Right throughout that, it was written for Simeon Brown. Where is  Simeon Brown? It is a pattern from this Minister, and it is, I think, quite appropriate that he is not able to read it, because if this bill is the solution to the water issues this country is facing, this proves what we\u2019ve been saying throughout\u2014that this Government is throwing local councils and ratepayers out in the cold. Anything that is proposed in this bill can already happen. It is just simply able to happen quicker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ERatepayers are facing astronomical rate rises across the country. If you talk to mayors, they will tell you that for some of them, up to 50 percent of those rate rises are down to the decisions of this Government. The decision to repeal water reform\u2014advice received by the previous Government and the current Minister indicate would have saved ratepayers from unaffordable rate bills. That is exactly what they are going to face. Nothing in this bill will save councils from the reality that they are going to have to put rates up. You can tell that they know that that is the case when a Minister feels the need to try and pre-empt arguments in a first reading speech; you know that they don\u2019t actually believe that this is going to do the trick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234ed281c940843afab0b906c6dc9f821\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2af3637908e4194898b23be14951adc\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t. Deep down, they know. They promised New Zealanders that they would help. They also promised councils that they would help\u00A0pay for it. Matt Doocey was one of the prime leaders in that regard. He stood in that seat\u00A0right there and promised them, just like the former spokesperson went around and told mayors that a future National Government would help councils pay for their water. They broke that promise. And now, it doesn\u2019t matter how many councils join together under a council-controlled organisation; there\u2019s nothing in there that will save them from the reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThere are already council-controlled organisations in this country. Parliament sits in a city that has one, and Wellington Water is stuffed because they cannot do what National told them they can do. The only place that would benefit from this is the unique situation in Auckland. No other council is in that position. No other council would be able\u2014it\u00A0doesn\u2019t matter how many they join with\u2014to get the scale and the financial separation to be able to achieve the cost savings that are required. One hundred and eighty-five billion dollars is what is required; the Government\u2019s advice says so. Councils cannot do it by themselves. The only way in which to do that is to achieve balance sheet separation, and this bill does nothing to achieve that. So, there will be small rural councils, in particular, that have been hanging out and waiting and actually, quite reasonably, taking Ministers at their word. Well, they\u2019ve been let down today. If this bill is supposed to save those councils, then they have no future other than to put rates up at a level that many can\u2019t afford. I\u2019m worried about those that live in rural areas, and I\u2019m worried about those on fixed incomes. Those people are already facing double-digit rate rises\u2014in some cases, beyond 20 percent and, in some cases, for the second and third year on the trot. It is inescapable unless the Government actually did something about it, and they haven\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis is actually a shame, because rates are one of the biggest issues facing this country at the moment. It is one of the largest drivers of inflation. The Government has a responsibility to help councils out, but all they have done is pushed it back to them. If you listen to the language of the Minister and the Prime Minister, they are setting up mayors and councils to take the blame. When asked about this in Whanganui, the Prime Minister said all councils need to do is stop doing dumb things. When asked about it, the Minister agreed with him. Everything they are doing is setting up councils to fail. I think it is a disgrace. They should do what they promised and actually help councils, not this. This is not going to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022fac580c624df4a2eae09ed276e775c6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fac580c624df4a2eae09ed276e775c6f\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. You know, I think we can all agree\u2014and it\u2019s clear that the intention is there\u2014that everyone has a right to and deserves access to clean, safe water. Unfortunately, we know that these past decisions of various Government inaction across various political stripes have meant that for many of our communities across Aotearoa, it\u2019s not the case. We don\u2019t have access to clean drinking water, and our waste water and stormwater are polluting our rivers and our beaches and the places that we really hold dear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe know that all of these systems really need to be designed in a way that does not damage and degrade our environment\u2014that is a bottom line. But, ideally, they would be managed in a way that is actually integrated with the environment in which the infrastructure actually sits, in a way that acknowledges who we are here in this country of Aotearoa, and in a way that upholds Te Mana o te Wai and recognises water as a taonga to iwi M\u0101ori and their rightful place in exercising rangatiratanga. And, unfortunately, that is not what this bill does. It\u2019s precisely what is so glaringly missing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe are really disappointed to not see any aspect of co-governance in this bill, because we know that for this country, that is what makes sense here. I was not only really disappointed, in particular, to see what the Government has done earlier in the week with their bill that means that councils, when they are consenting decisions, cannot uphold Te\u00A0Mana o te Wai in the hierarchy of obligations that that includes, but I see in this amendment to this bill as well that they are proposing that Taumata Arowai or our key freshwater regulator can also not have regard to the hierarchy of obligations in their regulation of waste water and environmental performance standards. This is hugely disappointing because it\u2019s basically crippling the very tools that we have to be able to push investment and push changes in infrastructure and the way that we manage all of this bad stuff that\u2019s happening right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe legacy of our underinvestment in water infrastructure is significant, not just for our people but for the environment too. Unfortunately, this Government\u2019s approach of putting these bills through under urgency is yet another missed opportunity, taking us further away from the stuff that we so desperately need, like community resilience and like protecting our environment, taking us further away from allowing Kiwis to access their most basic rights to safe, affordable, and reliable water. The Green Party are just dismayed to see this happening today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI also wanted to point out\u2014I\u2019m noting that the Minister has suggested that this will go to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. We know that three waters reforms in the past and, now, the water services bills have been going to the Environment Committee, and as a member on that committee, I would just put in the plea to Government that that is a great place for these bills to go. We know that the implications for all of these measures have so many impacts for the environment, and it\u2019s a really great place that the bill could go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ESo, in summary, I\u2019m really disappointed to see this going through under urgency. We know that we need progress in this space, but this bill, which completely disregards te iwi M\u0101ori and tangata whenua and their rights to co-governance of these precious taonga and water services, is an absolute disappointment. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u002281a70d7aae9e41028d48ed2496787220\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281a70d7aae9e41028d48ed2496787220\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand and speak on behalf of this bill, which is further progressing the Government\u2019s programme to get local water done well. It has to be said, since it was brought up, three waters, which was going to create 10 entities\u2014well, I\u2019m glad to see that\u2019s over. As someone from the mighty Tauranga region, which has been paying for its water for some time and doing a good job of it\u2014it just shows what can be done when a council is able to get its water under control and properly paid for. This new model is to be welcomed. I\u2019m glad to see it. ACT supports this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022afdaf39845ce44928cfd7ee73b44b056\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afdaf39845ce44928cfd7ee73b44b056\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, in the last two bills we discussed, we heard a lot of what I think were crocodile tears from the other side of the House about the relationship between central government and local government. That pales into insignificance with the way in which the last Government approached water reform. Not only did it almost split Local Government New Zealand but you\u2019ve actually got organisations which are now no longer part of Local Government New Zealand. We got 88,000 submissions on it, and what happened to those? By and large, they got ignored. So they were crocodile tears over the last couple of pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThis bill, the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill, allows councils to decide their own model\u2014allows councils to decide their own model. It allows them to work together if they want to do that. It allows council-controlled organisations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e59c459c2954e94bdc0558bc1293c50\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: How did the rates rises go in Wellington, Andy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c0e7a0a207045a589a0d93a734c3580\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about Wellington Water, Andy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa3f9bdc23448408aa553251be584d6\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it could allow a number of different contracting entities, but what it does do\u2014they\u2019re a noisy rabble over there, aren\u2019t they? What it does do is it sets out the expectations very, very clearly from what we expect. It talks about the quality of asset management. It talks about financial sustainability. It talks about all those very useful things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe one thing I particularly wanted to talk about was asset management, because in this country, we are lousy at asset management, and central government is particularly bad. Local government isn\u2019t great\u2014local government isn\u2019t great\u2014but central government is abysmal. That is why I\u2019ve said already in debate that we\u2019ve got $1.5 billion in this Budget to help fix the poor asset management around our education infrastructure. But it\u2019s not only there; it\u2019s right across the board. We\u2019ve had the debate just now about the amount of the deficit in waste management infrastructure. It is right across the board, and it is something that we need to do something about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty said that there is a $185 billion bill sitting there. Now, what he didn\u2019t say is that a fair bit of that is covered already by local government\u2014a fair bit of that is covered already by local government. What he also didn\u2019t say is that there are a lot of assumptions behind that. And one of the things, when we look in our Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2014and it\u2019s great to follow after my good colleague Cameron Luxton\u2014is that we know that there are huge opportunities for us to do infrastructure faster, cheaper, and better. If you go and talk to, as I have done, some of the local government operators and chief executives, what they will say is that up to 40 percent\u201440 percent\u2014of the cost of working on the roads, and that includes utilities, is all the health and safety costs around that. If we can make a difference there, that $185 billion comes down a long, long way. And that is what we have got to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELabour has also talked a lot about the impact on rates. What they don\u2019t do is tell you that, if it wasn\u2019t the ratepayers who were going to pay\u2014it wasn\u2019t a magic money tree; it wasn\u2019t the Government. There was a front-end bribe\u2014there was a front-end bribe\u2014but it wasn\u2019t the Government. Who it was going to be is the water consumer. I don\u2019t know about you, but I am a water consumer; I\u2019m a ratepayer. It\u2019s the same people. There is no magic money tree. Three waters, also, wouldn\u2019t have kicked in for a couple of years, and,\u00A0as I said, there is no magic money tree, and the cost would have been paid by the same people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThis is a bill about us working together\u2014local government and central government\u2014rather than the imposed model that we saw from the last Government. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002288112051db68450e943c758544e05bdb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288112051db68450e943c758544e05bdb\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Just outrageous\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be2e76e23ee94f1991fccff35869b8dd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good\u2014excellent. We\u2019re just going to let the man start his speech before you pass comment on whatever it is he might be about to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022489bac4d421446ccacf84b63bcaf1a76\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. That is just outrageous. Andy Foster, former Mayor of Wellington, talks about water infrastructure\u2014a city that is struggling at this very time\u2014and he is supporting a bill that he knows will not save Wellington from its water infrastructure issues. He talks about the relationship with local government and Local Government New Zealand that he stayed with. So that is an absolute cop-out from the New Zealand First MP and, actually, the chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. All I have seen from him is an inquiry, this term, into a pedestrian crossing in Auckland. It\u2019s outrageous that that member can talk about the importance of infrastructure when, this week, he voted down, with Government members, my inquiry into Auckland Transport because of their dismal delivery for Aucklanders. He voted it down. And how dare he stand up today in this House and advocate for better water infrastructure when he knows that this city will not benefit under this deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI acknowledge water infrastructure challenges in Aotearoa New Zealand. I sat on the Finance and Expenditure Committee for two years while we debated this out. You know what they will never say is actually one of the biggest challenges in this\u2014yes, from the ACT Party too? It was co-governance. And when we come to submissions on this bill, I look forward to every iwi and every r\u014Dp\u016B M\u0101ori that\u2019s going to front up and challenge this Government on M\u0101ori representation when it comes to water, because they will argue and they will argue, and no doubt they will take this Government to court once again, because M\u0101ori representation in this country is important\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022974425f64f1443b490e3772744fde667\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the p\u014Dti?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228292053718404f5a9f258af4f3d92dc1\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and they will front up, Matua Shane. They will front up to all of you and ensure that their voice is heard. Yesterday at Hui Taumata at Om\u0101hu marae, thousands of M\u0101ori turned up in kotahitanga to talk about the tragic state of this Government and how poorly they are treating M\u0101ori. And I\u2019ve said over and over again that this Government and their sentiments are anti-M\u0101ori in a country that is important, and actually, M\u0101ori want to be a part of this decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce15ed07bcb8406a84cbb6b173f7ff97\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250d38f66f571417c8c5bf5651ff75af4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order, Cameron Luxton. I think I know what you\u2019re going to say, and I was within a hair\u2019s breadth of making the same comment. Please bring your speech back at least around the bill, as opposed to as tangentially as you appear to have gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225df20ab7ba93489197666fee85b90b8e\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a water bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295308255a4474bca8badba7964084638\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: It is a water bill, and it does include the importance of iwi as a part of it and M\u0101ori representation in the decision making of our wai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThis Government is putting forward a bill that is not going to change outcomes for the majority of New Zealanders. When we talk about the cost to ratepayers, the cost to ratepayers is that the benefits to Aucklanders are actually worse under this Government in water rates than they were under Labour\u2019s plan. I accept that it\u2019s not easy. I accept that somebody has to pay. But Labour\u2019s plan cost less to Aucklanders for their water to achieve the changes that were required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThis bill doesn\u2019t even acknowledge Wellington, that Andy Foster\u2019s talking about. When I met with Gisborne council a month ago, they were so concerned about this leaving them out to dry. Dana, you have to front up to your community to ensure you have the best outcome. And if you\u2019re speaking on this today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022963a9b6b63cb43789d059c4fd1f7a0f7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, I don\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022541ff26f86a04c4796ed8f1492567b25\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014you know this is not a deal for Gisborne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e26cf63b1264f24bc6464a1e30ab0b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on, Mr Halbert. I\u2019m not fronting up to anybody about water\u2014I\u2019m not a Minister. So just follow the rules of the House. If in a speech someone is referred to as \u201Cyou\u201D in so much as it\u2019s not the first person, that\u2019s acceptable under new rules, but not quite the way that you are addressing it there. And I\u2019m probably taking up the time that someone was about to take up with a point of order on it just to move us on. My apologies for interrupting you, but please carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ac12828ef8e4489845d81f2c5e3f821\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: No, my apologies. I will ensure that when I question members in the House and ask them about how they\u2019re going to represent their communities when it comes to important things like water infrastructure and how they pay rates in Whanganui\u2014actually, this bill is not achieving better outcomes for their communities. It\u2019s not making it more affordable for people to have good quality water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI see the member for Tukituki over there, where all of this started. Our Government had to bail Havelock North out because people died from poor quality water. And the members across the other side of the House know that this is the bill that is not going to achieve a better outcome for their communities. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00223f5a9cd41ff748c9813de1305d94159c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f5a9cd41ff748c9813de1305d94159c\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It seems to be a misapprehension across the other side of the House that one group of New Zealanders have a closer relationship to water than others. That is simply not true. This bill is a great bill, and I look forward to it coming to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and I commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002204696922c3004497a066e99b00281679\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204696922c3004497a066e99b00281679\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you. That is not a comment that I made in this House, and I would like an apology\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f75dd391b76423ba762f13c7468bb12\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe73b46ab35441f6805896d8f91da13d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe73b46ab35441f6805896d8f91da13d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014everyone is going to go into this new concept of silence mode at the moment while we work this through. Firstly, in his speech\u2014which I was listening to because I listen to them all\u2014he did not refer personally to you. He spoke of others who have a view, and that\u2019s not unreasonable in debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225837364c76064d198a5d678c4cf78497\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: As long as we\u2019re clear. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280f099ae573c49898005632906d7ed0d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m certainly clear, and that\u2019s really all that matters. I call on Rachel Boyack\u2014honourable Rachel Boyack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022938e9e1701464e37bc1c4221be5edaa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022938e9e1701464e37bc1c4221be5edaa1\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Oh\u2014thank you, Mr Speaker. That was a nice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212c2faf559f14a259ac5deec34fb90c9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014apologies. Before we\u2014no, we\u2019ll start the clock again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022959143401c7d4bf8b553512fce36b6e6\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! At least I wasn\u2019t sitting in the front row today, Mr Speaker; thank you. This is a bill that is all about Auckland and says to the rest of the country, \u201CStuff you.\u201D\u2014not you, Mr Speaker; stuff the rest of us. The reason why I say that as a regional MP is that what the Government has done here is they have repealed the water legislation that went through this House under three different bills\u2014the first two that went to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and the third that went to the Governance and Administration Committee\u2014to ensure that the feedback that came from councils was heard. We came to a point where we did get to around 10 entities across the country that would be separated through balance sheet separation so that we can actually get the economies of scale needed to invest. That\u2019s what I\u2019m going to go into in my contribution today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EFirst of all, this bill focuses solely on Auckland\u2014on Auckland, which has the Watercare model that already delivers water in a better way than any other territorial authority across New Zealand. That is fundamentally what the challenge is. I think it\u2019s been quite interesting to hear the former Mayor of Wellington talk about how bad this is going to be, as colleagues have mentioned. When you look at what Wellington Water looks like right now, I would not want to be standing up and using that as my contribution on how things can be done well. What we can see from this bill is there is a focus on Auckland and there is absolutely no idea about how the Government is going to deliver better water infrastructure for the rest of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EFirstly, what about Northland? Who is going to go into a collaboration with Northland? We know that Northland is one of the parts of the country that has the most deprived levels of poverty in the country, where there is a real challenge to invest, where we have a large rural area with a very low rating base. How are they going to invest? Yes, it was challenging for people to accept that Auckland and Northland would have to go together, but that is what needed to happen, because if we go into this parochial approach, we end up with a system that doesn\u2019t deliver better, safer water for every New Zealander. So I ask the Government members: how are you going to support Northland to invest when you have ring-fenced Auckland all on its own?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWe will see\u2014when that legislation comes through the House; if it appears\u2014about what is actually going to happen for the rest of the country. I can see everyone\u2019s heads are down all of a sudden. There is nothing to heckle about here, because they know\u2014they know\u2014that this bill actually shafts Northland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAs a regional MP, I will be standing up for my region and all the other regions. And the other region to talk about is the West Coast. The West Coast has already started having conversations with parts of my area\u2014it might be news to Stuart Smith\u2014about how we and Te Tau Ihu can support the West Coast, because who here thinks that Canterbury\u2019s going to go and jump into bed with the West Coast on water? There\u2019s absolutely no chance. The West Coast is one of the largest rural areas. There are pipes everywhere, multiple treatment plants that need to be upgraded, and a very small number of people to pay for it. Now, without balance sheet separation, how do we do that? The advice from officials repeatedly, Mr Foster, has been that you must have balance sheet separation to be able to do the investment that you need to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f516fc79774be7a9a05cc84d879098\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got to have a revenue stream that makes it work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bb160ef7afc4439925b0fbfb27c042d\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: And so\u2014absolutely, and I\u2019ll just quote back at you: \u201CThere\u2019s no magic money tree. There is no magic money tree under this bill\u2014there is no magic money tree under this bill.\u201D What our reform did was allow balance sheet separation so that we could get the investment needed. One of the things we see is that even Auckland\u2019s going to be worse off. They are facing a 26 percent increase. With the deal that\u2019s been struck, that goes down to 7 percent, but it would only have been 2 percent\u20142 percent\u2014under Labour\u2019s plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo this is a bill that is bad for Auckland, but it\u2019s even worse for the rest of New Zealand. It is terrible for rural and regional New Zealand, and we will see the results of that in years to come. I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u002240913f4fe250455fba95401b1a7f4e34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240913f4fe250455fba95401b1a7f4e34\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I support this bill because Hawke\u2019s Bay, where I\u2019m from, has a plan. The Hastings District Council, Napier City Council, Central Hawke\u2019s Bay Council, and Wairoa District Council have a plan and are very supportive of Local Water Done Well. So I absolutely commend this bill to the House. It is about local democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00222c39f34233554bbc9b6d17547d12f435\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c39f34233554bbc9b6d17547d12f435\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on this very, very important matter, local government water services. From this side of the House, Labour opposes this bill because, under the last Government, we had a solution. My colleagues have informed and reminded that side of the House why the plan and the solution that we offered with balance sheet separation was the plan\u2014it would provide good water services not just for Aucklanders but for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EOur previous spokesperson traversed the country and was able to get the evidence to provide the solution. This bill does not do that. We have to question that New Zealanders have huge problems with just paying everyday costs. The cost of living in terms of school lunches, in terms of public transport\u2014we had a couple of solutions there, but this Government has taken that away and is providing tax cuts for those who actually don\u2019t need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWith regard to this bill, Labour absolutely opposes these options put before us, because they do not address the problem. You have heard my colleagues talk passionately about Auckland Council and Watercare. However, under this current bill, what it explains is that Aucklanders will be worse off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo I asked the Government, because they\u2019re so passionate in terms of their behaviour\u2014and they\u2019re all looking at their phones because they don\u2019t want to look at us. But Labour opposes this because it does not leave New Zealanders with good water infrastructure. We need quality water infrastructure for waste water, for stormwater, and for drinking water. I did hear the previous member, Catherine Wedd, from the region where we lost lives because of the water that was provided that was not healthy, and as a result we lost a life\u00A0there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI want to just explain that the options before us do not provide the solutions that balance sheet separation would have provided, because it would have created the funding for good water investment. It would have been a sustainable solution that New Zealanders would have confidence in. Also, for that side of the House, it would have included our voices from tangata whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIt is important that New Zealanders understand the limitations and the constraints that are provided by the analysis in terms of the regulatory impact statement. People need to explain that, because there is no process for New Zealanders to understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo in terms of water infrastructure, the fact that this bill is being rammed through in urgency is not something that we should be celebrating. In actual fact, we should be questioning and, in particular, scrutinising the effects, especially the financial effects that it will have on ratepayers, particularly for our communities who are on fixed incomes and who are in a worse financial situation. They are now going to be worried about paying for what they deserve\u2014good, healthy drinking water and good water infrastructure. So this bill does not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIn terms of this side, the expectation for every New Zealander is to have good, healthy drinking water that they are able to access day in, day out. So in terms of the rates rises that not just Aucklanders will face, it comes at a time when it\u2019s absolutely unaffordable. My plea to the Government is to rethink this and have more conversations, not just with New Zealanders but with the solutions that were provided by the last Government that that side of the House does not agree with. So I am very pleased to put forward that we will be opposing this bill. I do not commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00221560692a80d64f39a61e0e4ded05a4ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221560692a80d64f39a61e0e4ded05a4ca\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E Keep it local; deliver water services; get it done; do it well. I fully support this bill and seeing local water done well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022148101006466446da7e4eb182a4d7c68\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000666\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228eabc20d46c74438b9ca1ef109d41005\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228eabc20d46c74438b9ca1ef109d41005\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill be considered by the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Those of that opinion will say Aye, to the contrary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df3875639fcc4129ae2f07c99b56fe20\u0022\u003ECelia Wade-Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I wish to speak to the referral motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272ad2081fb1c49c7950037bcd60404b3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022362ad24a02b84e428c782e71f61b7e5e\u0022\u003ECelia Wade-Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bd6f04dc9e1c471a9cd48a70c7c5e880\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E is, .\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230702b5d87c049098a7d96ad306c6808\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t interrupt quite like that. We\u2019ll just procedurally set ourselves again, and I\u2019ll say: the questionThat the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill be considered by the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000672\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228896b739a01d42d3ae179c1882ce102c\u0022\u003EInstruction to Finance and Expenditure Committee \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0144a05d3594b2dbfe845334159e34f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0144a05d3594b2dbfe845334159e34f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Local Government: I move, That the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill be reported to the House by 18 July 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196, and that the committee\u2019s powers be extended under Standing Order 295(1)(b) to consider out-of-scope amendments set out on Amendment Paper No 41 in the name of the Hon Simeon Brown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002231069e2d4ef04a59b279c2d6f4e554c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231069e2d4ef04a59b279c2d6f4e554c3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00221b3260f49d4e4ababd30274bb0de2338\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b3260f49d4e4ababd30274bb0de2338\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I must say, I find it quite extraordinary that the Minister comes to the House and wants to have a carte blanche from this House to throw extras in, in out-of-scope amendments. It\u2019s basically saying, \u201CIt\u2019s being done on the hoof, and I don\u2019t know what, but I\u2019ll probably want to throw something else in.\u201D\u2014select committees do do that, and that\u2019s fine; but something else not captured by the original framing of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c0ba297bd34d73b0857432e16d5a0f\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Kitchen sink.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022620ce2d42f2c4c068415c111a6bb3189\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s absolutely right, Ingrid Leary; it is the kitchen sink. What it shows\u2014this is all within six weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, if the Minister has got\u2014and the Minister does get a chance to reply\u2014amendments that he\u2019s working on, then he should preface them, he should tell us what they are. Because it\u2019s only appropriate that the House is given some idea of exactly what he\u2019s after. What this really shows is lazy and irresponsible work by this Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294494e805d1c4b66be5b95e795b39b90\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Efficiency! Efficiency!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206bde2e9922e406b84939a46c66bbdf6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s clearly a number of lazy, irresponsible, and loud Ministers in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, the fact of the matter is that the Minister doesn\u2019t know yet, but what he does know is that he\u2019s rushed it so much that his parliamentary counsel and advisers are going to come to him and say, \u201COops, we should have included this.\u201D Or, perhaps even worse\u2014because \u201Cout of scope\u201D captures pretty much anything\u2014it could be something entirely unrelated, not just outside of the clear confines of this legislation but something entirely outside. Might want to pick up something\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014under the Resource Management Act. Might want to pick up something in the commerce portfolio\u2014his old portfolio. Might want to pick up something in the justice portfolio. That\u2019s the permission he\u2019s asking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I would suggest to the Minister that he at least amend his motion, or at least give us an assurance from the floor of this House that these out-of-scope amendments will be directly related to the purposes of the legislation he\u2019s tabled in the House in this urgent session. Because the permission he\u2019s asking for\u2014and this is the kind of thing that any good legislator would do. I\u2019d be surprised if he\u2019s got the support of all of his colleagues across his chaotic coalition\u2014or \u201Ccoal-alition\u201D, as our Green friends call it, which is quite nice\u2014because this is really showing just poor quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ETime and again, throughout this period of urgency, I\u2019ve alluded to the fact that this Government, in its Budget, is spending tens of millions of dollars on a ministry of regulation to try and do good lawmaking. Then, time and again, we\u2019ve got thrown in our face terrible lawmaking, terrible process. So I\u2019m asking the Minister to give us some indication, some guidance, as to exactly what those out-of-scope amendments will be, and then I\u2019ll come back and address some of the other matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220adb3a1dcf0f48f6985671bca499de72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220adb3a1dcf0f48f6985671bca499de72\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. My point of order is: where is the authority for a select committee to consider amendments to an Act or a bill before it that are beyond the scope of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve looked up the index of the Standing Orders that are before me, and if you go to scope of amendments, it refers to \u201Cselect committee\u201D and the only reference there is to \u201C308(1),(2)\u201D. There is no Standing Order 308(1) and (2), so there\u2019s obviously a problem in the referencing of the index of the Standing Orders, and I thought issues as to scope were for the Clerk to determine and that, if there was an amendment to legislation that is outside of the scope of the bill, it is beyond the scope of the select committee to hear it, and there are a number of reasons for that. This is an important point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOff the cuff, those reasons\u2014and other members may be able to contribute here. But the reasons for that include the fact that the bill as advertised will only receive submissions on matters that are obvious from the bill that goes to select committee, and so out-of-scope amendments are not permitted, because people to the select committee, select committee staff\u2014members of the Opposition and submitters don\u2019t have the opportunity to submit on those things because they\u2019re not obvious to them because they\u2019re beyond scope. So I\u2019d be most surprised if it is in order for a purported remit of this kind to allow out-of-scope submissions to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc75e554c5a84a1f886a519fcc407279\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc75e554c5a84a1f886a519fcc407279\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s an interesting point of order\u2014an important one, as the member has said. He\u2019d also be aware that as recently as last Tuesday, or perhaps the one before, one of his own members was seeking permission for a bill to be expanded out of scope at the Business Committee. Essentially, what I can inform the member is that instructions of the House trump any other consideration. The instruction that has been voted and passed this afternoon does enable the out-of-scope additions to the bill. We\u2019ve got to remember that the House is the master of its own destiny in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1ac5c7e9e6b4d0a8b0c379790d664ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1ac5c7e9e6b4d0a8b0c379790d664ea\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order, with respect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a700a15063946c390a26f62159819b3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019re not speaking to the point of order; you\u2019re now wanting to question something I\u2019ve said in my ruling, so it\u2019d be better if you phrased it that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022230eb09290df4047adbffdef3c89a579\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, sir, I think you\u2019re incorrect, because I do not think it is within the remit of this House to say, for example, we\u2019re going to meet tomorrow, on Sunday. Now, if you were correct in your ruling that you just gave, the Government could now move that we did that. Those things can be done by leave. The member could seek leave of the House to allow the select committee to consider things within scope, and I might give consideration to that; I\u2019m not sure that even that would be possible. Maybe that would be a possible route. But no one in this House can stand up and say, \u201CWe\u2019re now going to meet tomorrow.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022423049806c8148159121905857972f73\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the point, though, of the House today voting in favour of the instruction is, in fact, to give the select committee the authority, and I think if you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226719be53878d45c7a6c6b6cfc2cc55e3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022575d38c660ee4260858be254133352f8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sorry, if you\u2019re going to make a case to me that I should accept that somebody other than the elected Parliament of New Zealand can make a determination about what can be considered in a bill, then I don\u2019t think I can accept that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a63a26a1fcb1484d8a47d4e9a5615502\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a5faaed0fa4059be2bf749b619195d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e864aa63f0494da55e6e6f0dd11fec\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have asked for a precedent from the Clerk. I have never seen this in my time here\u2014not that I remember everything that\u2019s ever happened while I\u2019ve been here. But I have been here 22 years, and I have never seen an instruction which, effectively, says you can put a bill that says, \u201CThis bill is about agriculture.\u201D\u2014if it were\u2014and then have amendments to it that are unrelated to the scope of that bill and have it do something completely different. That is something that I can find no reference to in the Standing Orders. I\u2019ve asked for a reference from the Clerk as to where the Standing Order is, and I haven\u2019t received it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224c055ed9e9cd4352b623bf620db121e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c055ed9e9cd4352b623bf620db121e9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I acknowledge your 22 years of engagement in this House\u2014mine is slightly longer\u2014but my positioning has always understood that the House can make an instruction to a select committee, and I\u2019d refer the member to Standing Order 298(1), which deals with the instructions to select committees. Can I further say that when the member asks for precedents, there is always, always\u2014all precedents start with a decision at their initial stages, and if we\u2019re at that stage, that\u2019s where we\u2019re at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d64fb1e8efa746bca89738d0816966fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d64fb1e8efa746bca89738d0816966fe\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order\u2014speaking to the point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d20b8072e0c4d96ab4d147455ac65a8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This will be the last comment I hear on this matter from the Hon David Parker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac3200b1379d4b0a8a3360b47f7cb563\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, with respect, sir, I think that is surprising. But, speaking to the point of order, I have now discovered Speaker\u2019s ruling 115/2. This matter has just been thrown upon us, and I\u2019m on the fly here, doing my best. Speaker\u2019s ruling 115(2): \u201CAn instruction [under Standing Order 298]\u201D\u2014instructions to a select committee\u2014\u201Ccan relate only to that bill. It could not extend to any other business before the committee.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI know it\u2019s not directly on point, but none of these references are. How can it be right that a bill about one thing can be amended at select committee, without submissions, to another topic? That would be without scope. That is the very purpose of limitations as to scope, and I am still at a loss to understand how this can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Government is under urgency. If they want to write another bill now, they must know what the scope is about. If they\u2019ve got another area of scope, they can just, while we\u2019re in urgency, say, \u201CBill No. 3 going to select committee, with the scope of\u201D\u2014whatever. They could do something like that, but they can\u2019t change the scope of a bill that is going to select committee like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220015467a2acb449980142122431f0f8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220015467a2acb449980142122431f0f8e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a submission that you\u2019re making, but I would at this point disagree with you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d77efcafc81f4ae4992909a2bed2d878\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d77efcafc81f4ae4992909a2bed2d878\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m aware of Standing Order 298, which talks about the instruction to the select committee, but it gives only a general statement of any special powers or instructions, and they\u2019re the kind of things that the first part of the motion refers to. In terms of the scope of the select committee consideration, that\u2019s actually set out in Standing Order 300, and it does set out in Standing Order 300(2) the process for extending scope\u2014the Business Committee may determine that a select committee\u2019s powers are to be extended or restricted in respect of recommendations or amendments to a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe point of that, of course, is the strong convention that the Business Committee only does things by near-unanimity or overall consensus rather than by the majority of the Government. So taking that, it would seem to me that had the Minister wanted an extension of scope, he should have come to the Business Committee, as another member of this House did, and seek an instruction from the Business Committee accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022129bba11acaf4693be6bb56607281f45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022129bba11acaf4693be6bb56607281f45\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That would be correct if in fact the Business Committee held more authority than the floor of the Parliament itself, and it doesn\u2019t. This instruction was moved by the Parliament itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d665a95eea3541be806b312258c06895\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d665a95eea3541be806b312258c06895\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have a new point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you. My next point of order is that Standing Order 300(1) says, \u201CExcept as otherwise provided in this Standing Order, a select committee may recommend only amendments that are relevant\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e119215aa340609e40267952804f51\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, can I just ask you again, what\u2014Standing Orders, or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d814e30a037e4a7597299442e23af6d7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m reading the Standing Orders, yep. Standing Order 300(1) says \u201CExcept as otherwise provided in this Standing Order, a select committee may recommend only amendments that are relevant to the subject matter of the bill\u201D\u2014that\u2019s scope\u2014\u201Care consistent with the principles and objects of the bill\u201D\u2014that is scope\u2014\u201Cand otherwise conform to the Standing Orders and the practices of the House\u201D, which go to scope. Unless it can fall within one of the exceptions that are listed there, which include\u2014as the Hon Duncan Webb has said\u2014orders of the Business Committee, I can\u2019t see how anyone has authority to override the Standing Orders. We could change the Standing Orders through an interim order\u2014if the Government wants to do this through a sessional order, it could change the Standing Orders, but it hasn\u2019t done. I would suggest that this is unprecedented, and, particularly under urgency, I would ask you to protect the privileges of this House, and not to change the Standing Orders on the hoof.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6437a4f682446cbb13ae6b18b7fd1a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6437a4f682446cbb13ae6b18b7fd1a0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not going to go too much longer with this. I have actually been pretty firm in what my thoughts are, so you\u2019re now persuading me against that. I\u2019ll come back with some more to say. In the meantime, we\u2019ll hear from the Hon Kieran McAnulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002271b0838eea254fa5981d4aeb2c846660\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271b0838eea254fa5981d4aeb2c846660\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Sir, no one is challenging your view that Parliament is sovereign, and the decisions made here can override decisions made in other parliamentary bodies. It is, however, sir, important that the rules under which those decisions are made are followed. Now, earlier on in your first response\u2014shall I give you a moment, sir? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263c1a10d5e51472fad8cb05e9f2fa0fa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can give you some back-up to the Greek position I\u2019ve taken so far. Carry\u00A0on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214679de7a9124a01adc8e4b3f2cf960b\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, I appreciate that. It\u2019s clear that you\u2019re taking this seriously, but as are we. So, what I was saying, sir, is that no one is disputing your view, which is a long-held view and widely held, that Parliament is sovereign. However, it is the rules that determine the manner in which those decisions are made that\u2019s at question here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EEarlier on in your initial response to the Hon David Parker, you indicated that recently there had been an example at Business Committee where agreement was sought to consider an out-of-scope inclusion. That is the proper process, and it is the proper process in the sense that if the Business Committee agrees, then the normal requirement for leave of the House is no longer there, because it is the leave of the House to consider out of scope. That is the proper process for which Parliament can make its decision by which you refer to then be sovereign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo nobody is arguing that, sir, but what we are saying is that if out-of-scope inclusions are to be considered by this committee, that should be done by the leave of the House, not as part of a referral and an instruction to the committee. And I agree with my colleague the Hon David Parker in the sense that if this were to be sought by leave, we would consider it through that proper process. But given, sir, that there are clear rules in place that determine how this House operates, and there is already a process clearly outlined in the Standing Orders as to how this House should consider out-of-scope considerations, it would be going beyond those rules and creating a new process, thus not previously followed, if it was to be considered as part of an instruction motion rather than leave of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227ade3a4cb3ed494ba9403d068bd98132\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ade3a4cb3ed494ba9403d068bd98132\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I think the question, when it comes to proper process, always takes you back, ultimately, to the floor of the House, and to the sovereignty of Parliament to, effectively, determine its own order of business. So I stand by the interpretation given to Standing Order 298, particularly (1). In the case of Standing Order 300, then, of course, the remedy is the vote that goes with it. But I also refer members to the Hansard, Volume 594, 27 November to 18 December, if you\u2019re looking for a precedent. It was to do with the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Genetically Modified Organisms) Amendment Bill. It was a Supplementary Order Paper, in fact, put in by the Minister that empowered the committee to take into account any other matters that it might like. Now, if you think about parliamentary language, it\u2019s evolved a lot since 2001, and so we now talk about scope and out of scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe instruction has been voted on by the House. The instruction stands. We come back to the debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022828c8c9b22c94f96aa56b5e6017df77e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228cfae36a8c944bba5ee9c427a3c4bc6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m sorry; that\u2019s all I\u2019m taking on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b15cd5491cc541d0b357bb9d58aaafb2\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I want to refer to the precedent that you just referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b2c687cd8c0491084b928671402d5ef\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you don\u2019t need to, because I\u2019m not taking any more discussion on\u00A0it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9a0d86b64b7452ca929ec5ec182f667\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Well, sir, I think the precedent doesn\u2019t apply, so I would like to speak to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229be72698dec14fdd8d6eca393253c4cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m sorry, with all due respect, it doesn\u2019t matter whether you think it\u2019s right or not; what matters is whether or not, as the Speaker who\u2019s got to preside over this, I think it\u2019s a reasonable precedent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe further thing\u2014I\u2019ll go back to what I said before\u2014even if that were not the case, all actions that become precedents start with something, and there has been an instruction voted on by the House. The instruction stands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6aa72c127a0451f9dae2ce02c43037d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6aa72c127a0451f9dae2ce02c43037d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E New point of order, Mr Speaker. The case that you referred to, of a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) being put to a select committee, was the\u00A0opposite. It was to avoid a scope issue that would otherwise have arisen for the select committee if that Supplementary Order Paper had not been put to the select committee. I\u00A0hadn\u2019t seen the detail of that, but I suspect that would also have then triggered a submission process at the select committee; would\u2019ve then been within scope of the committee, because the new business that was in that Supplementary Order Paper and known to the House was then referred to the select committee; and then the select committee could consider it because it was then within scope. That did not override scope in the way that you are proposing here, sir. Sir, I think it\u2019s good that the Leader of the House has arrived, because I think this is an important issue. I\u2019ve never seen this before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224e22b9bfd3b9442fb381e0f9377f7402\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e22b9bfd3b9442fb381e0f9377f7402\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, just responding to you, I think there\u2019s an interesting\u2014but I think missing the point\u2014argument that you\u2019re making about it being an SOP that was referred to a select committee. It would\u2019ve been because there was an inadequate instruction in the first place, so it was an addition to an instruction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223076ef79eb96416faef0bf425638cd53\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Because it was out of scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d724f5f5b2844898a4c6755e67c6cbc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In this case\u2014no, with all due respect, in this case, it is not specific; it\u2019s general. It\u2019s a general authority given to that committee back in 2001. Can I just say that in this case\u2014I\u2019ll go back to what I\u2019ve said before, and we are terminating this discussion now\u2014there has been a motion put on the House, it is an instruction to the committee, and it stands. We come back to the debate on the date by which the bill is to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b52a696f319b4b26a2b980f6852dfcf1\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not in scope. I don\u2019t see how\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddc3e01918a5487dbc649fdd3aa8b00c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019m sorry, the member has had his time, and while he may not understand the discussion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202335f59fc6b48368faf14c41571b693\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: This is terrible\u2014this is terrible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022250960d0afd44dd2ba9549d08d0a1152\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and may wish to sit there talking to himself saying how terrible it is, that is a condemnation of the entire House who\u2019ve just cast their votes on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5ca1c34ea9c4297b6031e0dea902ab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5ca1c34ea9c4297b6031e0dea902ab5\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker\u2014a new point of order. That is a comment that you have made now on a number of occasions in response to a range of points of order now. You\u2019ve referred to the instruction having been voted on by the House; it has not. So for you, sir, in response to these serious and genuine points of order, to say that the instruction has been voted on by the House, the instruction stands, the decision of the House stands, my concern is that\u2014if indeed that were the case, fine, but it isn\u2019t, thus why we are raising these points of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe motion has been made, but we are currently in the debate. It hasn\u2019t been voted on. This is the appropriate time to raise these concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220b017e84c7a9436f97936c9e57e6a8dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b017e84c7a9436f97936c9e57e6a8dc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, no\u2014look, you\u2019re quite right. I do apologise for that. The vote is coming up. But the fact that there is a vote is also the answer to the suggestion that Standing Order 300 is coming into play. All members will have a say on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022a138878d76fc4a36a819f3fc79fb0ce9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a138878d76fc4a36a819f3fc79fb0ce9\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. We oppose this motion for a very simple reason: this bill purports to address a serious issue facing this country, and it is instructing the committee to consider whether this bill will achieve what the National Party and the Government are telling people it will in a very short period of time and, quite clearly, in a rushed manner: a rushed manner in terms of the design and the structure of the bill, rushed in the sense as to how the debate of the first reading went about, and rushed in the sense as to how the motion happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI was reluctant to make another point of order, but I will point out that there is a Speaker\u2019s ruling that says that if a Minister simply reads the motion and does not provide an explanation to the House, then that is cause for a longer debate because the House does not understand the rationale behind it. Perhaps if the Minister had done that, we would understand the rationale of the quite unusual instruction that it is out of scope. Scott Simpson laughs, but I realise\u2014I think that\u2019s a nervous laugh. I think he\u2019s realised that they\u2019ve stuffed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat they have tried to do is they\u2019ve tried to catch the Opposition off guard by rushing this debate of this first reading, and then telling everyone, \u201CWell, you\u2019ll just have to wait and see what order we do it in.\u201D\u2014so much so that the Minister who introduced the bill wasn\u2019t prepared. He didn\u2019t know. He read it as it was written, as if it was Simeon Brown and not himself. He\u2019s now read the motion and hasn\u2019t provided justification, and that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EFor the House to today vote in favour of this instruction to tell the Finance and Expenditure Committee, which already has a large workload and already has deadlines to work by, to consider submissions to the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill\u2014when you consider the interest in water services in this country, when you consider the nature of local government and the stresses and strains that that sector is under, when you consider that every single ratepayer in the country is facing larger rates because of decisions made by this Government, no wonder those members are instructing the committee to send it back to the House in a quick way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe oppose this. It is not, I believe, proper process. There were serious questions raised around whether it is appropriate for a Government to include an instruction on out-of-scope amendments. We, of course, accept the ruling that was made, but it is still appropriate to raise the point that there are questions about this as a way to go about it. If they were ready, they wouldn\u2019t need to instruct the committee to consider out-of-scope amendments, because the amendment is submitted after the bill was done. It is clear they are not ready, and something so important as water services in this country, and so important, particularly in the context of the promises that the National Party have made local government: (1) that they would help them pay; (2) that they would share GST revenue from new builds, both of which they have now walked away from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ELocal government has been forced to increase rates. In some cases, that\u2019s above 20\u00A0percent. Now, there was one mayor that I spoke to that is having to front up to their community with a proposal of an increase in rates of 24 percent. The mayor told me that 50 percent of that proposed increase was a direct result\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8012ccc2c3a418b9b988e10be68002e\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a very narrow discussion and debate, and the member on his feet has now moved extensively into the content of the legislation and the bill. This is a debate about the instruction to the select committee. It\u2019s very narrow, it\u2019s very precise, and I would draw your attention to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d60eb334f6b44eadbd0dbdd627a9148e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s an interesting view, but debates become wider because of various actions that are taken by the House\u2014in this case, the referral of a paper. In fact, it widens the debate quite considerably, and I don\u2019t think there is any suggestion that the Hon Kieran McAnulty has strayed from what is perfectly reasonable in this circumstance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022560c00a7c78e4262bb4e6bc28d812003\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, sir. If it didn\u2019t dawn on Scott Simpson, it certainly has now. Perhaps if the whip was concentrating on what they were doing, they wouldn\u2019t have made this mistake. But they have\u2014they have\u2014and I don\u2019t actually blame the Hon Paul Goldsmith, because he was stuck in it, and at short notice he was asked to do something he wasn\u2019t told the background to. But if they were prepared and they weren\u2019t trying to play games and open themselves to be outwitted by the Opposition, then they wouldn\u2019t have done it. But here we are. Matt Doocey laughs, but let\u2019s enjoy this referral debate\u2014you really wanted to go home, eh? How\u2019s that going for\u00A0you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo this discussion is of considerable interest to the whole country. It is of considerable interest to every single ratepayer in the country, and I think that\u2019s why they didn\u2019t want us to say it, but that\u2019s a fact. This instruction to the committee to limit and restrict the time in which they have to report back in the context of a very large workload, which other speakers may wish to go into detail on, because I\u2019m not a member of that committee\u2014I am sincerely concerned that the committee simply will not be able to do due diligence on the consideration of this bill and to facilitate the appropriate level of submissions from the public, given their workload.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, if we look at the level of submissions that were on every single bill that\u2019s gone through Parliament that has considered water services, it has actually been quite a large number. It has been relatively mixed in its response. There will be some people that come and say that this is a good thing, and they may well be in Auckland. But there will be others who say that this bill is not good and won\u2019t work. It\u2019s not just the ratepayers and local government; it\u2019s actually water infrastructure experts and those that understand the financing of water infrastructure, and my concern is that this short turn-around for this bill simply won\u2019t allow those people to develop a considered submission in the time of this contracted time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt will have to be considered, because this is actually quite a detailed issue. As we know from previous debates around financing of water infrastructure, it\u2019s not straightforward. We\u2019ve also had some claims that were made today in the legislative statement and in the first reading which I don\u2019t believe will be able to be stacked up. I\u2019m trying to be parliamentary in my response here, but I think people get the gist\u2014I don\u2019t think it will be stacked up. So if that is the case, it\u2019s more important that a select committee has a full time frame in which to consider these submissions, because there will be submissions around balance sheet separation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, balance sheet separation is a crucial element to ensure that the water services\u2014the cost that is incurred, the current existing debt, the cost of servicing that debt, the future expenditure, and the cost of servicing the debt associated with that expenditure\u2014is off the council\u2019s balance sheets. It\u2019s crucial. All the advice has said so, except for the advice that the National Party got, and it\u2019s that advice that\u2019s influenced this policy that we\u2019re discussing today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThat needs to be fleshed out\u2014it has to be\u2014because we\u2019re talking about people\u2019s livelihoods here. Let\u2019s just say that we leave water alone, just for one second, and talk about rates. If rates continue to increase at the rate they are, there will be people on fixed incomes that will simply have to sell their homes because they cannot afford their rates bill. That\u2019s how serious this is. When you consider people on fixed incomes, let\u2019s just say it for what it is. It is old people, retired people, people over 65 that rely on the pension and that have saved their whole lives to pay their mortgage off, but that\u2019s the only income they\u2019ve got. If rates continue the way they are, some of those will have to sell their home because they can\u2019t afford their rates bill. I actually think that is heartbreaking, and that is the serious situation that this country is facing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, this Government is saying that this bill is going to stop that happening\u2014and I\u00A0genuinely and sincerely do not believe it will\u2014and yet we won\u2019t have the opportunity to hear from those people. It\u2019s not just those I mentioned, but I guarantee that the likes of Grey Power, for example, and other senior advocates will want to take a detailed look at this, because if this doesn\u2019t do what the Government says it does, this could actually have drastic implications on the country, and that worries me a lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo, for the Government to move that this select committee has to report back by 18\u00A0July is, I think, a misstep, and if we don\u2019t deal with this in a proper way, we may have to come back and consider other legislation to fix it. The hint is actually in the instruction. They\u2019ve introduced a bill, they\u2019ve then realised they\u2019ve already made a mistake, and then the way to fix that mistake is technically out of scope, according to Parliament\u2019s rules, so we have to instruct the committee to consider that. It\u2019s highly unusual, and it doesn\u2019t bode well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab5f31d314d44278bcf04e2e930e0bd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab5f31d314d44278bcf04e2e930e0bd6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to take another point of order. It is the duty of all members of this House to assist the Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI heard in the debate that this was an instruction of the House to allow the select committee to consider out-of-scope amendments generally. I have now read the motion\u2014the motion was dropped on us under urgency\u2014and I see, and that is how I described it in my earlier points of order, that it was an instruction to consider out-of-scope amendments. Actually, what is proposed in the motion is to consider the out-of-scope amendment that\u00A0has just been discussed in the House, which is a specific one here rather than a general\u00A0one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI accept, sir, that on that basis my earlier submissions to you were incorrect because they were on the false assumption that it was a general abrogation of the rule as to scope. I would, though\u2014because I think your ruling did purport to say that the House is always the master of its destiny and even without leave could by majority allow a select committee, in a motion, to consider all out-of-scope amendments, not just ones listed like this and in the precedent you cited. With all due respect, sir, that\u2019s not a ruling that you need to make today because it\u2019s not the issue that is before you. The issue is where you have narrow-scope amendment such as this in a Supplementary Order Paper put to the select committee; I accept that is within the remit of this House and does not override the Standing Orders, and I would encourage you not to leave on the record a more general ruling that you can, through a decision in the House, on the floor as this was happening, have a more general one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo I apologise for my earlier mistaken understanding that this was a general referral, and I think that the general referral would be outside of the Standing Orders, but I accept that this one is within because it goes to the specific, as I now discovered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022664993d22e33441db4ee91b56b54384a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022664993d22e33441db4ee91b56b54384a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just acknowledge the contribution there by the Hon David Parker. I know that he does take the procedure of the House very seriously, and I think that is a safety in our democracy. If there was any misunderstanding here, I apologise to him also, but I\u00A0was well aware that the statement that is right in front of me was for that paper, No.\u00A041, and I think that may have caused some confusion in some of our conversation earlier. It\u2019s not my intention to rule that there is capacity for the House to generally allow \u201Cout-of-scope on any old bill any old time\u201D. That would be quite unparliamentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI do think that the situation might not have arisen had there been a little more explanation of this at the time that the motion was moved, but time moves on. We are where we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd9007f95bc44d4cb6840e5eed9376ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd9007f95bc44d4cb6840e5eed9376ee\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I just want to question it, again, in relation to the referral motion and the report-back motion. I am a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee (FEC). I was also the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee when the Water Services Entities Bill came back in June of 2022. The report-back date for that particular bill, because it was the first bill in a series of bills which reformed the water entities across the country, was a five-month period, so that was truncated in that it was five months. However, I don\u2019t think the seven-week justification for this bill to be reported back is fair. The reason for this is that this\u00A0bill\u00A0has 103 clauses. It is a totally new bill. It sets up new commercial arrangements for Auckland Council. It sets up a whole balance-sheet treatment, credit ratings, and financial support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIn the regulatory impact statement, which was given by officials for this bill, they say that the time frame constraints have meant there has been no opportunity for sufficient consultation on the proposed bill, as required by the Cabinet criteria. It also says it identifies the scope and timing constraints resulting from the Government policy direction in this area and, within these, clearly identifies strategic and detailed options going forward in using an appropriate framework to assess this. So the officials, in preparing this bill, through their regulatory impact statement, are concerned about the lack of consultation. They set it out very clearly, and they weren\u2019t able to provide the Government with the necessary assurance that the options that they put forward would actually work in the way they were intended. The options that they put forward in the regulatory impact assessment only partially met the criteria assessment, because it didn\u2019t have sufficient consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo, therefore, having a seven-week report-back date for the Finance and Expenditure Committee would also require a public submission period. July 18, that\u2019s the report-back date. It is likely the committee, because the referral motion also gave permission for the select committee to meet on any other day\u2014so say, for example, we pushed it right to the end, we pushed it to the Monday of that week of 18 July. That means drafting instructions for the revised-track version\u2014or if in fact it\u2019s a new version of the bill, we would only be able to have a week with it, so now we\u2019re into week five. We also have scrutiny week during the seven-week period. Therefore, for the select committee to do its job and hold the Government to account for the Estimates which this Budget has put through, you, effectively, have that date out. So we\u2019re now down to week four or three\u2014so week three. So, therefore, working backwards again, it looks like we might only be able to call for submissions for, I would say, maybe five days\u2014five days, five to 10 days; I would say five days\u2014in order for the select committee to hear public submissions on a brand new framework for water service entities. It is a brand new framework with new commercial arrangements in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAnd, again, I remind the House that officials in their regulatory impact assessment said they were constrained around the assessment of the options put forward to Cabinet, because there was no consultation. So officials were constrained, and, now, the Government is making the Finance and Expenditure Committee constrained by giving us basically, I would say, five or, perhaps generously, 10 working days to have submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s work forward. If this gets through, today\u2014because today the chair could call for submissions\u2014we are now in King\u2019s Birthday weekend, the public might pay attention to it next week. That means that, next week, they will only have five days to put in a submission in. Auckland is our largest city. That is not enough time. Again, I stress back to the House, officials were constrained, because they had no consultation. So for five days, submissions are open, perhaps there will be five days for the select committee to hear submissions from\u2014it could be\u2014across the country, because, yes, this is Auckland. However, the Amendment Paper then reopens it to the rest of the country, because it\u2019s the national freshwater statement, not just Auckland. Because of that Amendment Paper, it is wider than just Auckland\u2014because of that Amendment Paper. Then we hear submissions, then we have to deliberate, we have to provide drafting instructions, and we have to look at a version of the bill\u2014all of that, effectively, within six weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo I do not stand in support of the report-back motion or the referral motion to FEC.\u00A0We are a very good select committee. However, this motion and this report back on 18\u00A0July does not give us sufficient time to be able to do our job to ensure that this bill, which has not been through anyone else except for Government hands and officials to be able to have a proper say on it and actually review the bill. And this is a commercial bill;\u00A0this is not just $100. This is billion-dollar entity with the assets for our largest city. The Finance and Expenditure Committee will absolutely do our best to consider this. However, I believe that the Government should look at an amendment for the report-back date. July 18 is too short.\u00A0We lose a week because of scrutiny week, so it effectively becomes six weeks. That\u2019s the second sitting block after this week. Even if they pushed it out to August, that gives us\u00A0another three sitting weeks to consider it. That would at least be better than a six-week turn-around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe members on the other side of the House may not understand, but this is a brand new framework. I don\u2019t even know if it even has a post-statutory review on it. And, basically, the committee would have to ask for that, because what happens if this has errors in it? We won\u2019t have time to actually check with other people. And it\u2019s unfair to the public that, during a King\u2019s Birthday weekend, they might have to actually pick up this bill and start drafting their submission, because the submission close date might be next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI just want to, again, acknowledge my concerns, as a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, that six weeks, because we have a scrutiny week, is not sufficient. Officials were constrained in their assessments, as set out in the regulatory impact statement,\u00A0because they couldn\u2019t consul, and now this Government wants to constrain the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Ultimately, the people that will lose out in this will be the people of New Zealand, because this bill is wider than just Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00225f84bcdd33e0461893ec8d600bc4ba1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f84bcdd33e0461893ec8d600bc4ba1e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I just want to add to my colleague the Hon Barbara Edmonds, as a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. My colleague did a very good job of walking us backwards from that report-back date that the motion that we have before us is asking for, 18 July. My concerns really fall into two broad categories. It\u2019s the layering of complexities and it is the lack of guardrails in terms of the motion that we have before us looking to have amendments that are out of scope. So for submitters, there\u2019s not even certainty around the parameters of what they\u2019ll be submitting on. But added to that, it\u2019s not about how hard we can work as a committee; it is actually about the work programme that is before that particular committee at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of those pieces of work is a multipartisan piece of work, which I\u2019m very happy\u2014as are other members in other parties, I\u2019m sure\u2014to be undertaking, in terms of an inquiry into climate adaptation. Climate adaptation is largely about water infrastructure. It is largely about how it is that we have that conversation with local councils. This coincides with the time when that inquiry is open to the public. It is councils, it is water engineers, and it is people involved in the funding and financing of the infrastructure to deal with flood risk that we\u2019re asking to participate in a multipartisan study that is looking at a way that across this Parliament we can find enduring political solutions to the vexed issue of climate adaptation. We\u2019re asking them to give freely of their expertise. To then pile on\u2014to those councils, to Local Government New Zealand, to those water engineers, and to those involved in the funding and the financing of water infrastructure around our country\u2014the need to submit on something that is fundamental to how it is that they need\u00A0to govern their cities and their regions over the coming decades as well is simply not tenable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt is not fair for us as a Parliament to put that pressure on our councils and on a small pool of experts that exist in this country that can give advice to us as a Parliament on two critical issues, and connected issues, that we must deal with: that of how it is that we deal with the ageing and failing, in many cases, water infrastructure that we have around this country. There are very serious and big questions that have to be answered within that, not least of all the funding and financing. And Local Government New Zealand and their constituent bodies, and those that aren\u2019t constituent bodies of that organisation, will need to be involved in answering those questions. But we, at the same time, are asking them to give their input and to work with that committee on an inquiry with consequences that are going to last for decades and decades and decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister has asked parties across this Parliament to work together to find solutions about who pays for climate adaptation, how we fund it, how we finance it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e695f458128b4b519939306a148416fd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just remind the member that we\u2019re talking about whether or not the Parliament should agree to the earlier report-back date of 18 July. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d66765e0dda47f78d6fbd9c2d723708\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c767b6f525f45b2900ef6dae024c451\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, with all due respect, I\u2019m hearing a huge amount of repetition\u2014skilfully put, I might say, but none the less repetition\u2014by the member, and we just need to come right back to the tight point: are we agreeing to the report-back date or not. You can give the same excuse 20 times. It doesn\u2019t mean that it\u2019s any more than one excuse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f95a01462e54029b36a98790fbc3037\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: No, but, Mr Speaker, I do not think this is something we can give a once over lightly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a91f77c63a11484ab1e28a44d2da3a0e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you for your opinion, but I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022158370ffb5a2485cb0c662b92c080607\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, if you\u2019d like to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abbfdfd81be14d58bc2348597b727372\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, don\u2019t talk over the top of me like that. All I\u2019m saying is while of course that\u2019s your opinion, because that\u2019s why you\u2019re speaking in this debate, you are still constrained by the concept of talking to the motion that\u2019s in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb76e8953608463984e519eccb61558a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am. The requirement of that committee\u2014my colleague spent some time talking about counting back and sketching out the time frame that would be required by the committee in there. What I am doing in my contribution, Mr Speaker, is informing the House what the committee is doing and how these two pieces of work are not going to work together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0eb2def032345d7b0c1f95360a683c9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you might think that\u2019s valid\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215bd9494770047f0a6f85642e46c2113\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Not because of the burden on the members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b4149883ebe4224b646198b2d93bdf7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, you might think that\u2019s valid\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249d0ea8ded434474ac8882b9954a0369\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but the burden on the submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be2f6f40dcf84786af0947c8fa1a67e3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not helping the cause at all, because while you might think that\u2019s valid, it is not. Explaining what your colleague was on about is not your role. Talk to the\u00A0motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022588f233c34b1486b8b89879c1365340f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking to the motion, Mr Speaker, when I am saying that this Parliament, if it passes this motion to have a report-back date of 18 July for this water services bill, is putting undue pressure on the very people that we need to hear from, because we\u2019re already asking those same individuals to that very same committee to submit on connected but different issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis is not the way in which Parliament should be scrutinising a bill of this importance that we have in front of us or the level of scrutiny that it requires in terms of the questions that need to be answered. These are not issues that can be taken lightly, and I think what we\u2019re seeing from the Government today is a lack of a genuine desire to actually test this legislation. We need to answer some very fundamental questions. My colleague the Hon Kieran McAnulty talked about some of the issues that we need to talk about\u2014balance sheet separation, for example. These are things that we need to consider in depth, and the Finance and Expenditure Committee will be placing an undue burden on those that can give us answers to that if we agree to this report-back date of 18 July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227acec12115d74ec2b9773da6d1c277cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227acec12115d74ec2b9773da6d1c277cf\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. We cannot support this motion and the instruction to select committee. I wanted to unpack, line by line, why we cannot, based on what\u2019s in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFirst of all, the motion by the Hon Simeon Brown talks about reporting this bill to the House by 18 July. I do share the concerns from other people regarding the constraints that that creates. To add a new point to it, I\u2019m particularly concerned around the capacity of the Public Service to provide robust advice, particularly on a bill that actually requires analysis that goes quite structural and broad, potentially, and members have a right to actually seek quite broad advice around the impacts of this bill. At a time when the Public Service is under the pump, I think we really risk receiving less than adequate advice with the time frames that the Hon Simeon Brown is trying to give the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis is not saying that public servants will not do a good job; it\u2019s just that we\u2019re putting them in an impossible situation with an incredibly limited time frame to provide robust advice on an issue that actually has been quite controversial and has been the subject of intense debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen I\u2019m also concerned\u2014others have spoken on the timing of 18 July and sort of what happens between then and now, particularly when we\u2019ve got scrutiny week and, no doubt, we\u2019ll have other heavy workloads within the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m concerned as well around the wellbeing of the staffers of that select committee and the pressure that the report-back date will create at select committee. If I remember all my conversations with my colleague and co-leader Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick who is in that select committee, I know how busy the staffers at that committee are. I\u2019m personally really concerned that we\u2019re not putting the wellbeing of workers as a priority on an issue that is\u00A0incredibly controversial, that requires adequate consultation. I do think the wellbeing of public servants and those select committee staffers will be compromised as a result of\u00A0this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESecondly, the other parts in this motion also talk about being able to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, during any evening on a day which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday, and then it talks about outside of Wellington as well. Again, we\u2019re going to be in a period in scrutiny weeks where we\u2019re all supposed to be here. In fact, we\u2019ve all been encouraged to be here unless exceptional circumstances happen, and yet we\u2019ve been told that the select committee will now be able to basically sit outside of the Wellington area, effectively compromising, potentially, during the period we\u2019ve been given, the ability for members to participate effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFor parties like ours, where we have limited numbers of members and actually many of us have to sub in and out of other select committees, we don\u2019t have the privilege of having one MP per portfolio or two portfolios per MP, which is something that reduces the workload of the members opposite to me. But with our members, I want to express the concerns I have around the ability for the Green Party to then properly participate and scrutinise this piece of legislation with the provisions that are in this motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI mean, generally, we already have concerns with any provision that allows select committees to meet while the House is sitting, because of the impact and the resource drain that it creates on parties such as ours. So I think this motion also undermines the adequate participation of parties like ours, and, actually, I would say ACT and New Zealand First and Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, in the scrutiny of this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen, moving on to the out-of-scope amendment set out on Amendment Paper 41, I think, if I was to look at the section in that amendment regarding the regulatory impact statement, I mean, I also have concern that because there hasn\u2019t been a regulatory impact statement prepared for that amendment, we\u2019re going to need to ask officials during that really constrained time frame to then present analysis that otherwise could have been, perhaps, available to us by this point during that incredibly constrained period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo the issue with the ask of that specific Amendment Paper, that has been brought in with very little analysis, is that we\u2019ll have to do the grunt work in in a very, very limited capacity. I think that will also undermine members of the public who will be trying to submit on this additional out-of-scope amendment without the information available for them to make informed decisions regarding their submissions in relation to the Amendment Paper that has now been brought that is now completely out of scope. I think what that will leave is members of the public without the tools available to them to make informed decisions in relation to this Amendment Paper that has been added as part of the motion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a0aecdf16aa45f39d9967d0979b2892\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance\u2014relevance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb15c0fe605b41a19f693129479da245\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: OK, well, if I\u2019m being encouraged to speak to relevance, I encourage the Minister to read the motion, because that is exactly what the motion states. I\u2019ve got it in front of me. I did say about how I was going to be referring line by line, so perhaps the member wants to put his glasses on and actually read what\u2019s in front of him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo, anyway, going back to the motion in and of itself, I wanted to also talk about the fact that the consequence of this motion is that it\u2019s going to actually exacerbate the tensions that exist within this political debate. We\u2019ve already seen with limited time frames an ability\u2014and other members talked about the predictions of the number of days we would have to make for submissions. Some estimated that it will be about five days. We\u2019ve seen that in other pieces of legislation, like in relation to M\u0101ori wards. We\u2019ve seen how that actually undermines the trust in our institutions, and I\u2019m really concerned that the motion put in front of us will actually only serve to undermine people\u2019s trust in institutions such as ours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m deeply concerned about that, because the last thing I want is people getting a sense that they\u2019re not being given the tools and information and the ability to constructively participate in legislation that actually has to do with issues that that have resulted in rallies and protests and mobilisation. Actually, this is why this motion undermines a constructive participation by all of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party won\u2019t be supporting this motion as it goes against our own principles of appropriate decision-making, and therefore I invite the Hon Simeon Brown to withdraw the motion. I invite those members to carefully think about the real-life consequences\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e45d7fc8ead49cebf049520b63b987d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b0163653ce44e9787160feea0e659bf\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of this motion in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6c68867bc1f4d668acbc83bd297005e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6c68867bc1f4d668acbc83bd297005e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Regional Development):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just take a short call and apply some air freshener after that most recent contribution. Can we direct our attention to what actually is written down. It makes reference to some bog-standard Standing Orders\u2014nothing at all different. It also identifies Amendment Paper 41, which we have already ruled upon. [Interruption] No more aerating from that side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve proposed, through Simeon Brown handing it on to my colleague, has turned into unnecessary ventilation. Mr Speaker, I plead with you to bring us back to the essence of what is in front of us, because there\u2019s no new material that\u2019s being served up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c00e39f0e13e404d8c41bcf14373fc4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c00e39f0e13e404d8c41bcf14373fc4c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is certainly the case following that speech, as well, so we are we are coming to the end of this discussion. I\u2019ll hear from Ingrid Leary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022c58dd48fa13c4f1b8e9a1203f1525c48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c58dd48fa13c4f1b8e9a1203f1525c48\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I really appreciate, actually, that the Minister also engaged in this debate; it is serious. My brief contribution is, as the former chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee (FEC), just to share a bit about the experience. I know that the Hon Barbara Edmonds was shepherding some of the bills through that committee at the beginning of the process. I had the privilege of being the chair at the end of the process. My view is that the trust of this Parliament would be eroded if we were to have this short call back date\u2014for different reasons, actually, than the previous speaker Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2014not just because members of the public might feel that they don\u2019t have the time to submit but actually the technical ability of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and the officials, to be able to furnish the advice and to be able to consider it appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI would remind you, sir, that we had an unusual situation last year\u2014one of the more difficult times for me as the chair of that committee\u2014where we prepared, debated, and presented to this House a unanimous report that had some remarks about the way the advice was given to the committee, and some recommendations from us to bring on board an expert to be able to help us be able to decide whether something was a material change, a substantive change, or just a minor change. Now, that may seem quite nit-picky. It was actually an incredibly important thing we did. We had tables drawn up and we were able to debate whether we thought there were material changes. Sometimes, the officials had made changes to the bill that we would not have had sight of and we would not have been able to truly be accountable for if we had not had that expert advice and the time to be able to go through that forensically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThese submissions that come to us from the city councils are all different. They are lengthy. They are prepared by lawyers. They are incredibly technical. We took our job really seriously and we made sure not only that we had the time to vet which submissions were repeated and which were making new points but also that we were able to be across\u00A0all the material and across the whole bill, so that when it was presented back to the House, nobody could say there was an unintended consequence in there that hadn\u2019t been thought through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, sir, I don\u2019t believe that this process can happen with the report-back time that is in this referral. I also believe that, more importantly, actually, the trust of the public, which has already been eroded through urgent processes and through just a diminishing sense of trust and faith in politicians\u2014if we could change this today, I think that would be a really powerful signal to the public that this House does work independently of the executive, that it does have its own mind, and that it does make the right decisions and do the right thing for the people who have so much vested in this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESir, I\u2019ve got no new points to make apart from one example. People have talked about the impact of the decisions that will come out of this on real people. In the Clutha area, they will have a 75 percent rate increase over the next three years. That is the example. That is why we must take this seriously and why I would invite the Government members to do what we did on the select committee. It was not easy as a Government chair of the FEC to do the report that we did, but we were of one mind to do the right thing because that\u2019s what the situation required. Now, I invite the members, particularly those who sat on the committee with us, to do the right thing and support the referral date to be pushed out\u2014maybe till August; that\u2019s not unreasonable. What\u2019s at stake here is really important, and I would just ask the House to take this really seriously. Thank you for the opportunity, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00229b2396bd736b40a2a2a0e533b80c0804\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b2396bd736b40a2a2a0e533b80c0804\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d45c2cf1223148b1a9117a6c4c1ac1ae\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, sir. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002260c526264a8f4f249bcb23f418179ee0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260c526264a8f4f249bcb23f418179ee0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order\u2014well, OK. There\u2019s a question here but I\u2019ll take the point of order first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00220e76045cf2c8425f9c2efd12f88d78b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e76045cf2c8425f9c2efd12f88d78b9\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, with respect, sir, I don\u2019t think you heard, but I was seeking the point of order before he was given the call. So it\u2019s not as a response to that; I was seeking it beforehand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022935f27608c954447b1354dfb1f89582b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d58464681254493bada1930f93ad811\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: So it\u2019s come to our attention that the regulatory impact statement (RIS) that has been provided may not actually be the correct regulatory impact statement. The title on the RIS does not match the bill and that, I think, speaks to the confusion that has been on display throughout the discussion of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut the substance of my point of order is that Speaker\u2019s ruling 115/3 is very clear that if the Minister moving the motion does not provide a reason for this instruction, then the House should have a broader opportunity to raise its concerns. That same Speaker\u2019s ruling also says that in an instance like we have had today, where a Minister omits to provide justification, then another Minister can do so. We have had one call from the Government; it did not provide a reason for the instruction. It did not provide a reason for, particularly, the unusual, around the out-of-scope amendments. All we really require to understand this is a reason, and the Hon Shane Jones did not provide a reason. He provided a response to the concerns that we\u2019re raising, but not to the instruction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, sir, like I said, I did seek the point of order. It was before you gave the call to a Government member. This is not in response to their attempt for a closure, but I would state that this Speaker\u2019s ruling indicates that given the amount of interest in this and the concern around it, I would put it that the House deserves further time on this discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9ce0a266e524e21bdef1ff459fd9a27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9ce0a266e524e21bdef1ff459fd9a27\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there is, of course, the matter of the interest to the House. With all due respect, there has been a repeating of pretty much the same sort of objections to the 18 July early report back from across the speakers so far. I\u2019ll hear from Arena Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022a19747a209ed424588e4b6df5487df25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a19747a209ed424588e4b6df5487df25\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. Seeking to debate the last section of the Minister\u2019s motion which reads: he had moved \u201Cthat the committee\u2019s powers be extended under Standing Order 295(1)(b) to consider [the] out-of-scope amendments set out on Amendment Paper No 41\u201D, and to draw the House\u2019s attention to the part which my debate call will be about; it is only this Amendment Paper which was tabled today as No. 41. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019m debating this is that it is unusual, but it is also something which simply cannot be done by the Finance and Expenditure Committee before 18 July. So let me explain to the House why that is. This Amendment Paper amends the Water Services Act, and new section 138(3A), inserted by clause 101, impacts upon Taumata Arowai and the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management. That is a piece of this legislation which is not mentioned anywhere else in that bill and is something which falls well outside the ordinary scope of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. That is something which would usually be considered by the Environment Committee and so it would be appropriate for the committee to be able to use the Standing Orders Committee\u2019s decisions from 2020 which are recorded in the Standing Orders 197. That provision is for joint meetings of two committees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Hon Minister Shane Jones is looking at me because he won\u2019t be familiar with these new rulings, so let me explain to him what those new rulings are. Joint meetings of the committees are a new innovation by this Parliament, and it was in a submission from Jonathan Boston, who is a well-known submitter to the Standing Orders Committee. He helpfully advised the committee and they ultimately agreed with his advice that joint meetings of two select committees or more would assist the Parliament to unpack exactly the kinds of provisions that this Amendment Paper, which the Minister has proposed to the House should be considered in his motion\u2014this is exactly the kind of thing that those joint committees were intended to provide for when that 2020 Standing Orders review was considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236844312e1834aa29e9f56c24b46c075\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Historical material\u2014historical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203c38efcceda4774915d60c1898699a5\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s quite relevant, because the member hasn\u2019t been a part of the joint meetings. So my point is that it would be appropriate and exactly what the Standing Orders Committee intended for a joint meeting to be held between the Environment Committee and the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and that is not possible if the report-back date is 18 July. It would be possible if that date was 18 August because that would give six weeks minus the two weeks around the scrutiny period. Both committees would need to resolve at an ordinary meeting with a motion on notice to be able to have that meeting, and so that gives them two weeks only to be able to have one of those joint committee hearings. That is absolutely necessary to consider what the Minister has proposed in his motion that\u2019s set out in Amendment Paper 41. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIf the Minister is not prepared to change the date, then he should amend his motion to remove the consideration of the out-of-scope amendment set out in Amendment Paper 41 because the Finance and Expenditure Committee, as we have heard from a number of members of that committee today, is not the appropriate place to consider that amendment. They are not set up to consider that amendment. They do not have the right advice to consider that amendment. And so, Mr Speaker, I\u2019d ask you to ask one of the Ministers in\u00A0this House, in accordance with Speaker\u2019s ruling 115/2\u2014that was a Speaker\u2019s ruling in 1997 from Speaker Kidd\u2014to explain why this Amendment Paper part of the motion is necessary given that the Environment Committee is the appropriate place to consider Amendment Paper 41.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022dadea35186d847498d6a477f1c7f6029\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dadea35186d847498d6a477f1c7f6029\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you. This is an important and serious issue, and I listened intently to you. I was surprised to hear the Government seek a closure motion, because at the time when this issue was being raised with you, you said all members will have a say on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo, I\u2019ve been seated here gathering my thoughts, given the undertaking that I was going to take a call\u2014wanting to clarify that that is still the undertaking; that all members will be given an opportunity given the seriousness of this, given that that is what you had said at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222062d4f8cd3a48cbb9df414c39796f85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222062d4f8cd3a48cbb9df414c39796f85\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think when it comes to the House, of course, you know there\u2019s a degree of organisation around it for a debate like this, and I think the key word is \u201Ccould\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00221b24d721241a4555a822a3a1ece24dc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b24d721241a4555a822a3a1ece24dc2\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I appreciate being given the opportunity to take a call because I do have new points to bring into this debate, and I do that as the chair of the Governance and Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218add0033f3942eb8db59a0516160c2f\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: No, you don\u2019t! Repetition! New Days of Our Lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e23eea6302e44019515d69cbaaca567\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Look at Shane Jones shouting down a woman. Leave her alone!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a08c0affb9264deba048998cde4fe6be\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: And I was previously\u2014oh, I\u2019m OK. I can still hear myself so that\u2019s the most important thing, isn\u2019t it? And I\u2019m sure the Hansard will collect my thoughts also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ELook, I also was a deputy chair of the same committee when we heard the third piece of legislation, and colleagues have explored at length around the short time frame, but there is some new information. I don\u2019t need to, I believe, take the full call, but there is some new information that I have to bring. As chair of the Governance and Administration Committee, you\u2019ll be aware that we have responsibility for local government and also for the Department of Internal Affairs. I\u2019m actually making this observation quite genuinely to the Government members opposite because I do want them to hear some of the constraints that are sitting inside both the submitters and those providing advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe first is that through our committee, we engage significantly with local government. In fact, we had a hearing with Local Government New Zealand during the week. One of the points they have made to us is around their lack of capacity within the sector to be\u00A0able to deliver on so many of their projects, but also on engaging with central government. They have actually made that plea to our committee. I do note the points that the Hon\u00A0Barbara Edmonds and the Hon Dr Megan Woods made about the capacity of the Finance\u00A0and Expenditure Committee, and actually there could have been an opportunity to send this to the Governance and Administration Committee because we do actually have the capacity, as well as membership from across the House, the understanding of the sector, and the engagement already with the officials that actually do this work and those\u00A0who will be submitting. So, I think that is something that is worthy of consideration, and just also bringing in the points that Arena Williams made about the Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other matter that I wish to draw to the attention of the House, which I think is of relevance, is actually for the officials and the lack of capacity for officials because under this Government, all of those working on the water reform transitional organisations have gone. They are no longer in role. While there are still some officials engaged inside the Department of Internal Affairs who work on water reform, a lot of them have actually left their jobs. They are not there. It\u2019s going to be like an episode of Yes Minister; like an opposite of Yes Minister: \u201COh, why couldn\u2019t that person provide that report?\u201D. \u201CBecause you sacked them.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a796515f97d48fa97602f17d31cdf75\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just bring it back to the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca06e471d803414a8e09e7de07a26c4d\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: And so the reason I\u2019m bringing this in is because capacity is actually really relevant in terms of being able to meet deadlines. If you want to deliver, you actually need people to do the delivery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a53e9a2ad6a741759a7a1155f95f91d3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In your head, yes; not mine\u2014carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34ddaa1e3b64efdba5daf85445c464b\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: And so, it is a really relevant point. Where are the officials that are going to be able to provide the advice to this committee? We\u2019ll see consultants potentially\u2014you know, they will probably have them all coming back in as consultants to support that, at a greater cost to the taxpayer. Look, I did say I wasn\u2019t going to need to use the full call and that is correct because I just had this specific point to make, which is around capacity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222126484b14814c76b48372dbe6839c4a\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve heard enough\u2014heard enough!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022329dc206d24c4714a1541258bef72aca\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I know Mr Jones likes to hear details, so I thought I\u2019d give him a few. I like attention to detail. That\u2019s one of the reasons why I enjoyed doing the work on the bill last year. I\u2019m actually very genuine that I think this is going to cause real challenges for the committee. My prediction, and I\u2019m going to say it now, is that this committee is either going to need to seek an extension to the Business Committee\u2014they\u2019ll either be seeking an extension, or we\u2019ll be back in the House fixing up problems with the bill. I say it here today: that is my prediction. It\u2019ll be one of those two things and we will be back here to discuss it. I look forward to hearing from further members on their contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002284b41c855f44446e801baac8e45f4951\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284b41c855f44446e801baac8e45f4951\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u00A0just want to take a very quick call. Just for the clarification of the House, I just want to speak to the Amendment Paper alongside the bill. The Amendment Paper proposes interim changes to the Water Services Act. The amendment would mean that the Te Mana o te Wai hierarchy of obligations in the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management would not apply when Taumata Arowai sets wastewater standards. Now, I hope this clarifies things for the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022293bb4c09a4846eea4d0720c4beca887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022293bb4c09a4846eea4d0720c4beca887\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224b5b46bd7266435fab981019cc92f7e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b5b46bd7266435fab981019cc92f7e8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecf483f9fde1401bac19d17d259a4ad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecf483f9fde1401bac19d17d259a4ad5\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I\u2019m not trying to be trivial here, but the Standing Orders are very clear that, unless the closure motion is said exactly right, it cannot be accepted. Unfortunately, that was not said as is prescribed under the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224fc01c44bde947e5a4b25a11ef78f759\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fc01c44bde947e5a4b25a11ef78f759\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just get that checked. Look, I\u2019ve just checked with the Clerk, who has confirmed that the correct wording was used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002260d2fcf0c1364a53aa9d8904da26a062\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260d2fcf0c1364a53aa9d8904da26a062\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c2bf6a27d90d45e1a148cdc37a31b790\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022badaa0351179458fbd05667af1dc740b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022badaa0351179458fbd05667af1dc740b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, a small oversight on my part. So we\u2019ve voted on taking the vote on the motion, but we haven\u2019t voted on the motion. The question is, That the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill be reported to the House by 18 July 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196, and that the committee\u2019s powers be extended under Standing Order 295(1)(b) to consider out-of-scope amendments set out on Amendment Paper No 41 in the name of the Hon Simeon Brown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022933c226475934b7aa0c8045fd7045657\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd0d9fc3b6c14cf5ab13f9eefe483750\u0022\u003EResource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d06672dbb5c4fa48a50086bc662b19b\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00224bbd3b6e10b54832a2466f96e17f87fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bbd3b6e10b54832a2466f96e17f87fd\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. I present a legislative statement on the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e4f0d60f1f44f3a46393e9735de921\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is published by the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022612ec0f690a54cee8d26e63ab69bab8d\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Primary Production Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 18 July 2024, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s my privilege to bring this bill to the House as a template for economic growth. The Government has identified aquaculture growth as a priority. The sector has enormous potential to contribute in the rebuilding of our economy, but current regulatory and policy settings are inversely related to the growth ambitions for the sector and the clear vision of economic rehabilitation shared on this side of the House. By extending consents by 20\u00A0years, this bill will enable the sector to realise uninterrupted, untapped growth, contributing to the export-led recovery and supporting the regions that rely on aquaculture for jobs and wellbeing, freeing them from eco-babble, green tape, and those blowfish aspirations which are hobbling industry in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis bill delivers on the\u2014wait for it\u2014New Zealand First - National Party coalition agreement, a document that is embedded in the political heritage of New Zealand already. Essentially, it will deliver longer durations for marine farming permits. It will also give an enormous amount of certainty to current enterprise owners. Without certainty, there is no confidence. Without confidence, there is no investment. In the absence of investment, we will not meet our A-game in terms of turning around the mess that we\u2019ve inherited, in terms of our obligations to uphold and meet the aspirations of garden-variety Kiwis\u2014who want to use the resources of our country, not be guilt-tripped into believing that such utilisation is going to worsen the planet or, indeed, drive their children to Australia. Investors need confidence. Investors know the importance of sustainability, and there\u2019s no greater sustainability apostle than my good self on matters of marine affairs. Because we have a balance. We do not serve up eco-bile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOf course, there are some important matters to be attended to as this discussion rolls on. Not only is aquaculture a win for all Kiwis, it has been blighted because of weird, strange, and unsustainable interpretations of the law. So we\u2019re going to free every single Kiwi who currently holds a coastal permit for marine farming purposes. Their permits, as a consequence of this bill, will be rolled out to 2050. That\u2019s the quality of commitment that this side of the House has through this bill. We create some of the world\u2019s leading seafood exports to over 60 countries, indeed 80 countries\u2014they cannot get enough of it. Sadly, we\u2019ve inherited a complexity like beeswax. We today are cutting through that wax with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe $700 million we have visions to expand to $2 billion. That will not happen in the absence of certainty and engendering greater confidence so Kiwis and appropriate stakeholders from overseas can put their hard-earned cash into expanding this industry. Of course, the Government understands the importance of balance. There has to be due consideration for whether or not the farms that currently exist are located in the proper and correct location. Can they cope with the vagaries of weather? Can they cope with the changing circumstances both of weather, of communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EFor those reasons, regional councils will be able to address whether farms have egregious historical conditions, but they must do it at their own cost. No more sneaking around of regional council bureaucrats by circuitously imposing suffocating costs on God-fearing Kiwis trying to make a living in this important sector. They can only make that decision with the concurrence, the acquiescence, of the Director-General of the Ministry for Primary Industries. That\u2019s to ensure that regional councils are not captured, as is the case in Otago, by a small group who continue to frustrate the ambitions, democratically mandated, of our Government. We\u2019re not having that for marine farming. We are building in, through this bill, a safety valve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, innovation. Innovation has been stifled. There has been an enormous amount of sloganeering, false promises\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e858e358c6140e085708bbb219096d5\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: You want to kill local democracy. So much about localism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db46f14c6c241568beef2a4ec3bad6f\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and more exaggeration from the unemployable corner over there. Pay more attention to the rare birds that fly from Rongotai to the Chathams than to my speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOne particular point I want to make, as I draw this speech to an end: what is the point of not using our resources and hoping that only rhetoric tinged with climate alarmism is going to turn economic fortunes in our country around? There is no more appetite in regional New Zealand for alarmism, exaggeration. People know unless aquaculture and related industries generate an economic dividend, solvency will be threatened. For those reasons, I say even to my own people on the M\u0101ori side: stop being cultural busybodies and interfering with genuine enterprises in the coastal environment. In the event a regional council feels that a marine farming enterprise needs its conditions looked at, there will be the opportunity for them to consult the affected iwi. I expect the iwi to be in the industry, not hobbling, not impeding, and actually move from co-governance\u2014a discredited concept\u2014to co-investment. And this bill will actually create that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOf course, the iwi must not look to Parliament for high-quality examples in terms of aquaculture and economic development, if they stare at the empty seats. Look at yourselves. Use laws such as this, which is going to do an extraordinary thing. This is going to save millions of dollars. No more regional council overreach, no more Department of Conservation meddling. This bill rolls over all existing resource consents held by the aquaculture sector till 2050. It frees them up to use what cash, what resources they have within their businesses to deepen their capacity to further invest and create innovation and productivity. That is real reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis is one of the most dramatic levels of improvement that this sector has seen for many a long time. It is my pleasure, on behalf of the Government\u2014with appropriate modesty\u2014to aid the sector and, on that note, commend the bill to the House. I look forward to seeing the recommendations of the Primary Production Committee\u2014and, hopefully, escape unnecessary debate when I do move the referral motion. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229cb89d55a06345a38be6daed05ea8270\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cb89d55a06345a38be6daed05ea8270\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022047b4989c9f048e993d579b9f10127ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022047b4989c9f048e993d579b9f10127ce\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker Well, some may consider such rhetoric as that we\u2019ve just heard to be that of a false prophet\u2014we are here on the weekend. But isn\u2019t it interesting that we are here progressing a piece of legislation during urgency for something that actually could have fallen on the Government\u2019s legislative agenda\u2014if they were so serious about it\u2014at an earlier time. It is very, very interesting indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party will not be supporting this bill at the first reading this evening, and that is because this is simply a blanket approach to simply extend all marine farm coastal permits. This is lazy. This is irresponsible on the part of the Minister who has just moved this particular bill, and it is yet another example of this Government simply lifting and shifting, not wanting to actually address any issues, not wanting to take any responsibility; wanting to lift and shift and park it for someone at a future date or period in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, we agree that there needs to be some certainty for marine farm operators\u2014that\u2019s important\u2014but when the Government just simply throws a complete blanket 20-year extension without any consideration around what might need to be in place for mitigation, any consideration about the element of change in the environment over that period of time is simply short-sighted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe general policy statement in the explanatory note of the bill talks about the fact that there are 1,200 existing marine farms in New Zealand that do require one or more resource consents in order to operate. Now, if you look at the 300 in that statement that have consents that might expire by the end of this calendar year and then a further 150 due by 2030, there are around 750 that continue to fall within that particular mix. This is not something that we can support under urgency because of the sweeping element of change that the Minister is wanting to be able to deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the Minister about the ability, or, actually, the inability\u2014let\u2019s be honest about this\u2014of councils to undertake a fair and reasonable review. We\u2019ve heard him wax lyrical this evening about the nature in which regional councils and other councils actually go about this. Now, when I have a look at the explanatory note of the bill, it talks about the way in which those review consent conditions of extended consent, which would apply en masse as a blanket opportunity there, could actually be undertaken. And the second bullet-point on that talks about the fact that it needs to be with the concurrence of the Director-General of the Ministry for Primary Industries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt might be interesting to find out, when this bill does go to select committee\u2014and we will, Minister, be talking about the debatable motion on the shortened period. I\u2019ll leave that until we get to that\u2014you\u2019re not going to get a free ride in terms of thinking that we\u2019re just not going to put up any suggestions on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c17564e4e64a49dd853f34d29c29771f\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t be personal\u2014don\u2019t be personal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d7fc1917384d04bf53dd49ccb6b5f5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you said it so I\u2019m just responding to it. But what this raises, as a matter of interest, is the level of involvement that the director-general would have and the nature in which the director-general would follow instructions or directions from the Minister in relation to this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI note that it does talk about an agreed scope. The question would be the agreed scope obviously between the council, but perhaps the director-general, and, I understand, the applicant, or, actually, the person who holds the extended consent as well. But the other point of interest is that this will also be something that is not cost-recoverable. Effectively, this is an expectation on councils to undertake a review without having any recompense in any shape or fashion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is just another cost that this Government is wanting to put on councils. We\u2019ve already heard about the parking fine infringement tax that this House has already dealt with today in terms of that. This is another cost that the Minister and the Government are seeking to do. Now, the Minister might think \u201CMaybe, just don\u2019t do it.\u201D Well, on this side of the House, we think it\u2019s appropriate that consents that have been extended for a period of 20 years into the future should be subject to some form of review. The question about how that cost is recoverable or not is something that needs to actually take place. So we look forward to continuing this conversation, but in terms of the Labour Party, we cannot support this blanket approach to roll out an extension of permits as they relate to coastal areas, and so we will not be supporting this beyond the first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb8c8cc036ac4164ba6943eeabbf9d67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb8c8cc036ac4164ba6943eeabbf9d67\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next speaker\u2014Mr Jones, you\u2019ve been blessed with a very loud voice. I just hope you can be blessed with some judicious use of it as the rest of this debate goes on, with some optimism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002294fbe47912984ca8b0fe61f227d47bf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294fbe47912984ca8b0fe61f227d47bf3\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. You know, there\u2019s really something very special about our shared natural common areas here in Aotearoa. They\u2019re places that we hunt out\u2014you know, when we\u2019re not stuck in a building such as this. They\u2019re places we go for some space alone, or with our friends and wh\u0101nau, to actually enjoy our forests, our rivers, our beaches, our national parks, and our coastlines. Setting aside the fact that this Government is doing a really terrible job of protecting and restoring those places, we do all treasure them\u2014across the House; we do. And we know that the safeguarding of these commons\u2014for everyone, but especially for our kids and grandkids and for younger generations\u2014is really foundation to our identity as Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why it\u2019s super disappointing that this blanket extension is locking in 1,200 existing consents for another 20 years\u2014and having that brought to this House. It\u2019s every marine farm without exception\u2014without community input or assessment of environmental effects, which would usually happen on a case by case basis when these consents come up for renewal or if they\u2019re a new project. The community actually get to have their say, and that\u2019s not what\u2019s happening here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI really want to make the point\u2014as someone who does have a background in ecology and consenting and regulatory processes, through my time on a regional council and as a commissioner\u2014that this bill is not only irresponsible and dangerous to our environment and to our communities\u2019 wellbeing; it\u2019s just plain lazy policy. Firstly, the official advice makes it really clear that the case for change is unclear. Official advice confirms that the existing national environmental standards for marine aquaculture have been effective in managing marine farms while ensuring that environmental effects are properly managed. No applications under these rules have been declined, and applications processed under plan rules have tended to continue to be notified, so the community can have their say, and all have been granted with no appeals. I think that\u2019s a really important point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ESecondly, it\u2019s not even good policy for industry. We had the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries talking about certainty, but we know the only certainty is that these activities need to adapt, they need to innovate, and they need to change, not be locked into existing footprints and practices. We have our oceans warming; we have them acidifying. As a result, the habitat tolerances for species in these aquaculture activities are changing. For example, we know that for salmon the difference of just a few degrees in the ocean can be the difference between optimal growth for industry, and disease, biosecurity risk, and death. That\u2019s, sadly, already happening in the Marlborough Sounds in summer months\u2014it\u2019s not something conceptual; it\u2019s something the industry is grappling with now. We know that a lot of these consents and activities that were acceptable in the past may no longer be appropriate today. Extending these consents without periodic review risks significant and possibly irreversible environmental harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThirdly, I want to point out that the official advice, again, says really clear where the considerations and priorities of this Government lie. None of the five options considered promotes sustainable use of the environment, none uphold the Crown\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi obligations, and all but one provides certainty for industry. Protecting the commons is about safeguarding our shared environment for everyone. To toss that in for a quick buck for industry is lazy, it\u2019s irresponsible, and it\u2019s the antithesis of what the Green Party stand for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI want to just pick up, particularly, on this quote in the official material that says \u201Cthe delay removes key mechanisms for M\u0101ori to protect taonga and realise their environmental aspirations. More broadly, it can be interpreted as undermining M\u0101ori expressions of rangatiratanga and kaitiakitanga in the resource management\u201D\u2014and that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re not about. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022b52f105eb0cb42e4a54ee65d4e120301\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b52f105eb0cb42e4a54ee65d4e120301\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I won\u2019t apologise for the brevity of my remarks, but I just want to highlight a couple of key points of the left\u2014our colleagues on the right of us, but on the left of us, you might say\u2014constantly lamenting about the wellbeing of the working class. This is an industry worth $700 million\u2014goodness gracious me! How would we not want to support them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThe members of that side of the House\u2014I point out frequently\u2014have something that I would call a grievance culture that somehow a success in an industry is a bad thing. This is nonsense\u2014$700\u00A0million that we would not want to consent with some certainty, some productivity and investment, and, by virtue, I say to that side of the House, of outcomes\u2014outcomes for the working class that you always extol that you care about. This is a great bill. I absolutely support it, and we, the ACT Party, support the National-ACT coalition Government putting it through. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u002231a699f481504246bbcd65b9dd3521f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231a699f481504246bbcd65b9dd3521f9\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a sensible bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00226b5caafef2744c008d7165ae7b508fe7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b5caafef2744c008d7165ae7b508fe7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Great\u2014probably one of the most thoughtful speeches we\u2019ve heard from the National Party in recent times!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOver on this side of the House, we\u2019ve got no problem with aquaculture. We know it\u2019s a great way to grow food. It\u2019s great for our exporters. But that\u2019s not what the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill is about. This bill is about giving it carte blanche.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got about 1,200 marine farms in New Zealand, and this gives them a global extension. What that means is that you are assuming there are no farms which are having a material adverse impact on our environment. And we know that can\u2019t be true. You\u2019re telling me that there\u2019s not one of those 1,200 farms which aren\u2019t having a really difficult and detrimental impact on our marine environment? We know our coastal marine environment is under threat, but that Government over there doesn\u2019t care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe heard Mark Cameron talk about the money that\u2019s involved, and that\u2019s great, but you need to strike a balance. You need to strike a balance, because you need a sustainable environment, because if you plunder your environment for everything you can right now, it won\u2019t last for ever. It might not last for us; it certainly won\u2019t last for our kids and our grandkids. So this is classic lazy legislation, the legislation of a lazy Minister who really doesn\u2019t care about the things that really matter. The economy is great, but it can\u2019t exist outside of the environment. It\u2019s a subset of the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhere these marine farms are is of critical importance. What impact they have and whether they\u2019re well managed is of critical importance. And we want people to look at that, look at the impact it has on the environment and the communities, all of the communities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c6758b6ee37499699e7634b30b89044\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s already been done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0476a2d07904b4eaef3cf0dee4196e2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: You say it\u2019s already been done, but you know what? Things change. Life changes. The use of the local environment changes. The health of the fish stocks change. You\u2019re frozen in time. In fact, you\u2019re worse. The New Zealand First party are dinosaurs. They think we\u2019re still under the Town and Country Planning Act. The fact is that this is typical of the New Zealand First approach to oceans and fisheries. The first thing they did was to get rid of the Kermadec sanctuary. What have they got to say about our most precious sea lions? Don\u2019t worry about them. What are they doing with cameras on boats? Getting rid of them, reviewing them\u2014not that important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2e6fb0ae6334bf596133665a208a894\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I\u2019ve taken on board your advice that my voice is moderated. Nowhere in this bill is there anything to do with sea lions or other strange mammals. If it\u2019s cool for you to give me that admonition, please spread it around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b31b64b563c414eb70509c7fb1d04d2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cc6ef120b934889af291999ec8dd21a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll deal with Mr Jones. For a man who provided ample context during his own presentation, I think it\u2019s a little ripe for you to be upset by what is a relatively narrow broadening of the scope of the bill by the current speaker. Was there any time taken off during that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e60802d60a04ee8af7255715c7b3a1c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: No, the clock was stopped. Thank you. That was a great intervention by that strange mammal over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd there we have it\u2014there we have it. I mean, the fact of the matter is that we have a war on the environment coming from that coalition, from the New Zealand First Party in particular, who is basically an extractive party, extracting what they can get from the National Party, extracting what they can get from the environment. It\u2019s shameful that here they are. We absolutely think we should be encouraging aquaculture, which is sustainable and high value, but it does nothing for our international reputation or our exports if we are lowering the environmental standards of the products we produce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EClimate change is down in Canterbury even, where they have salmon farms. They are struggling because of climate change. And yet this does nothing to address the fact that water temperatures are changing and we need to readdress what the best locations and placing of those salmon farms and other aquaculture is. That is exactly the process that should be undertaken. I know that Mr Jones is at war with the World Wildlife Fund as well and that they\u2019ve suggested\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022899a16a97ebe45c89f0cd1788dfe5c7e\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Goldfinger!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2c94868c5f747da9cc8e3fd0cf55b21\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014said that they should give him perhaps a frozen finger because he\u2019s frozen in the past. I think that\u2019s quite apposite. So here you go, Mr Jones, like your heart, come and get yourself a finger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00222c3cdf955f4b402ab206435d6a9e6fbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c3cdf955f4b402ab206435d6a9e6fbc\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill is a superb piece of legislation. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c0fb20a4c3d4577a3b34088709ac84b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Wrong one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe443251dacb48658d4fc7596f84c931\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe443251dacb48658d4fc7596f84c931\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House will resume at 7 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002247c19289aae04bd0bdc7c3b3ae8b8507\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247c19289aae04bd0bdc7c3b3ae8b8507\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Welcome back, members. We are debating the first reading of the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill. We\u2019re up to call number eight. I call Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6176f16a67a458db073f1110ee12d92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6176f16a67a458db073f1110ee12d92\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you\u2014thank you, Madam Chair, for that and to take this opportunity to speak on, as you said, the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill. Not a \u201Cbill about trees\u201D, which is what the previous speaker before me at dinner time, Tom Rutherford, referred to. And that may be fair, because in his mind, both these bills might be related to Shane Jones and Shane Jones loves talking to business and doing whatever it is that they ask him to. So perhaps that is why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo we had an interesting speech, Madam Speaker\u2014you may have missed it\u2014from the Minister in his first reading where he talked about \u201Ceco-bile\u201D, among other things. But I want to go to the main point, which is, of course, that this is terrible legislation, and I say that as an ex - Minister of Oceans and Fisheries and an associate environment Minister. Because, of course, there was a lot of movement in the aquaculture with the Natural and Built Environment Act\u2014and that was repealed in December. There was a body of work that could have been worked on with this bill but, alas, it has not. Instead, we have just a hammer to deal with this issue. The Minister said that he was cutting through wax\u2014cutting through wax with a sledgehammer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere was also talk about how it might be balanced; there is no balance to using a sledgehammer. There\u2019s nothing here that does anything for sustainable management, which, of course, is the purpose of the Resource Management Act, and this bill is amending the Resource Management Act. Nothing\u2014no interest by the Minister in anything to do with looking after our environment, which is, of course, consistent with his other legislation, the Fast-track Approvals Bill, that wants the facilitation of development to trump all other environmental rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbaf29ef474641b0b9da3c29c27f6c39\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Growth\u2014growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224321df86afe240b2ae978b1986646c93\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: And he\u2019s saying now \u201Cgrowth, growth\u201D and that\u2019s right\u2014growth at what cost? Growth at the cost of not considering the environmental effects of environmental issues such as: we can see with marine farms if you have a whole lot of shellfish\u2014and most marine farms are mussels. There\u2019s also, of course, the fin-fish farms that we\u2019ve heard about tonight as well. We know that they can cause environmental effects. If you have too many in one area and you don\u2019t rotate them enough, you can add to a lot of nutrification in that environment that can lead to environmental effects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ddd259c7f6c46b288ca01ff2291c805\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Details\u2014details.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c85e8a0ca38643789bd36b7cc66f8ac0\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: And the Minister says it\u2019s \u201Cdetails, details\u201D. They are details and they are important details\u2014in my submission and opinion. They are important details in that they are ones that can be assessed if required. Now, I know the Minister will likely say, \u201CWell, despite this blanket 25-year extension, councils are still able to review those consent conditions if they think that some of these details need to be addressed\u201D. But he\u2019s also been very clear that that regional council cannot require any payment for that review of those consent conditions. He\u2019s called these \u201Csuffocating costs\u201D by regional councils. Regional councils, when they\u2019re looking at the effects of a farm\u2014a muscle farm or a fin-fish farm\u2014they are looking at those effects because this is a common resource that we are talking about. We are not talking about things that are happening on the land here. We are talking about things that are happening in our common resource\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dead0653e1694db5a5093a8f5ef71532\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Far too academic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222968743afb274510adbc37360f568972\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of the sea. Apparently, it\u2019s \u201Cacademic\u201D to discuss the difference between land and ocean, which is curious, particularly coming from that Minister, who has sublime academic credentials. If only he cared as much about the environment as he did language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, this is a private benefit that these people are getting from a common good. That\u2019s not to say it shouldn\u2019t happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226326bb5d016b4697947d28780195e93d\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: It benefits everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e685d8a6502d41ba89db33b4c9a16e66\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229721e75169ef4a4fa152fdb08a17a74b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re hearing that it\u2019s benefiting everyone, that it\u2019s jobs. Well, in that case, if it\u2019s economic and its jobs then there is no harm in proving to those markets that we are trying to get a premium for our very fine products that I\u2019m sure many people in this House will agree, and enjoy from time to time\u2014we need there to be good environmental regulations so that when we are saying that that is a premium product, we can explain that in fact, yes, the environmental effects are considered. This bill does not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00225bdfd6b5d7814307bbfda1fe06c1dd19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bdfd6b5d7814307bbfda1fe06c1dd19\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I support this bill because it helps drive productivity and increase the value of our exports and strengthen our economy. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022670d1cc612be40eeb0570335c881b5a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022670d1cc612be40eeb0570335c881b5a8\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E At what cost? At what cost in terms of creating progress? Because we can. We can improve our productivity. We can improve the way we do business. But at what cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve read reports. I am no academic, but I can read, mostly, and there have been reports talking about this piece of legislation in terms of the risk it poses to our international reputation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022706226936fea46f5af385534c952ef41\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Trifling, trifling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d912c31911694980972b954cf196b72b\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The risk it poses to our international reputation\u2014I think that\u2019s really important to consider. As New Zealand First has a go at this and as they kind of cackle across the House, I need to remind them that the Marlborough District Council are actually opposed to this, right? That\u2019s correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022622ae661e8f3477682021f952bea331b\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: They created the Takutai Moana problem in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022472abb26549641f0867bc5c335b89309\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: They are opposed to this, and community groups out in Marlborough are very much opposed to this, in terms of their mussel farm there in the Marlborough Sounds. So I find it really interesting that New Zealand First is supporting this when one of their members is a current former councillor on the Marlborough District Council, who is against this piece of legislation. I think it\u2019s really interesting that obviously this, yet again, is running roughshod over our environment, over nature, for the sake of\u2014and I will quote many things that have been said this afternoon about this\u2014economics. \u201CIt\u2019s all about economics.\u201D\u2014and we support economics, absolutely, but we support economics when it is done right for people and for the planet. We\u2019ve heard that we\u2019re all about stopping investment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a65ae307693d4fbfaedd848b22929da3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Red tape!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddce3494d7fa45a09504fb936297544d\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and we are not about stopping investment. We are about encouraging investment in the future of Aotearoa New Zealand. We\u2019re about ensuring that investment goes to the right places and the right people to ensure a sustainable future, to ensure that our environment and also our people are cared for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe other one we\u2019ve had called across the House several times this afternoon is that this is anti-progress\u2014we\u2019re anti progress. Well, we are not anti-progress. We have been focused on progress to make sure that we are doing what is right by the people and by the planet here in Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis legislation is something that puts our international reputation on the line. The Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill is something that is highly controversial when you look around the world and jurisdictions who watch us, who keep an eye on what we do, and who want to make sure that we are 100 percent pure New Zealand, which, unfortunately, that reputation is\u2014well, I wouldn\u2019t say we\u2019re even 99 percent. We\u2019re probably down to 80, 70, 60 percent. But we need to ensure that we up that game. There was a report recently that talked about this legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd7d09a34c314cf68c8ff06932693852\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: More bureaucracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2106c9c26b248278c058767ac9d7468\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It was not from bureaucracy; it was actually from stakeholders. It was from stakeholders, and this is what they said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CAnd so we say that this\u00A0is bad for the environment.\u201D It\u2019s actually bad for our trading reputation as well, because we have free-trade agreements by which we agreed to go backwards on environmental standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWe are about progress and we are about the economy. We are also about making sure we get our settings right so our fair-trade agreements are correct and are in order to ensure that, when we sell our salmon or our kaimoana to the world, we get the best price we could ever get because we do it right and people pay a premium for our products. I don\u2019t really think the heckling can come from the other side when they were part of a council that opposes this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIn closing, I want to say that my final quote from across the House was \u201CStop being cultural busybodies.\u201D\u2014stop being cultural busybodies. Now, if you think that this side of the House are playing cultural busybodies and M\u0101ori being engaged, local iwi, hap\u016B, mana whenua being engaged in the process\u2014if you think that\u2019s cultural busybodying, there\u2019s something fundamentally wrong with this Government, because I know, on this side of the House, we work hard to engage and support what it means to be Treaty partners. We\u2019re doing what we can, and if they are being cultural busybodies, I think there\u2019s something quite seriously wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis is bad legislation. It\u2019s bad for the economy, it\u2019s bad for the environment, and it\u2019s bad for people. This is just plain bad legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00226ead6cb19c044af1bb3324db4c767169\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ead6cb19c044af1bb3324db4c767169\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As the member for Kaik\u014Dura, which includes the aquaculture centre of New Zealand and the Marlborough Sounds, this will be very welcome. It is a practical solution to an issue that needs to be addressed. It will be very welcome and it will be great for New Zealand. I proudly commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002209f8808a435044138a79c20ab154db15\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000936\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002268cc25174ed9418099cfcc9bd2cd1e16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268cc25174ed9418099cfcc9bd2cd1e16\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill be considered by the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224377334d170e4aaaa017568e3a7d4300\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, can we speak to this part?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7e989ac0f4d497a93823df68a737394\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fc9a690a58d547cbab280f93d3ca02c0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000940\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002274a93628a1414afea318fcc1a1d9bb6f\u0022\u003EInstruction to Primary Production Committee \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d712f0df1a094e3bb62437395d4ddb19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d712f0df1a094e3bb62437395d4ddb19\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E For purposes of completeness and thoroughness, the referral motion I shall now read. I move that the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Primary Production Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 18 July 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f240bb696e4447c698d7efe74174eb26\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Despite the Minister\u2019s desire to do it completely, he\u2019s actually read it incorrectly. He\u2019s moved for a second time this evening that it be read for a first time. The instruction to the committee is part of that motion, but by commencing it with \u201CI move that this be read a first time\u201D, he\u2019s actually moved that incorrectly, and so I\u2019m not sure the motion actually stands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022515f3b9461ee4854ad13a637530bbd2d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank you for that clarity. I think the Minister has read the first statement rather than the second.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae09659fb51e48f9861097bc8363b2aa\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Details matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca630a9787e44b1af03337c03618243\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It would appear. I move, That the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 18 July 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet me elaborate that, Madam Speaker. A challenge was put forward by one of the honourable members from the Labour Party as to why this is necessary. A challenge was stated that there was not enough explicitness in my speech. I want to draw everyone\u2019s attention to the dire uncertainty that faces this industry, the large number of applicants that are waiting in line and are anticipating a positive result when and after the select committee undertakes its constitutional duties. Obviously, it\u2019ll be up to the select committee to hear the submissions and come back. The key point is that if we are able to proceed with haste and enable those consent holders who currently enjoy existing legitimate permits for the purpose of occupying the coastal environment\u2014which has rightly been pointed out are not tradable property rights; they do represent, however, an exclusive entitlement under the law to occupy a portion of the coastal environment. They\u2014not all; a host of them are due to run out and expire at the end of 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe challenge for the Government, indeed the industry\u2014why, I\u2019d go broader given the rather withering assessment from Treasury about the problems that we\u2019re going to face with the growth of our GDP\u2014is that moving this bill frees them up from the obligations, largely unnecessary in my view, of lodging replacement consents. The farms aren\u2019t going anywhere, and enabling them to dedicate time, energy, and investment resource into gaining greater productivity, greater positive economic outcomes from existing enterprises and ensuring that those costs that they face through protracted consent processes\u2014largely superfluous; a hangover from poorly drafted law from times gone by\u2014that is why I and our side of the House see it as a positive development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe other final thing I\u2019d say, given that I was challenged, is that a compressed period of time enables the bill to be passed by the end of July. And it is a balance between certainty for the consent holders and an opportunity which I\u2019ve already covered off in my speech, which is available in the bill, in terms of other stakeholders. Therein lies the explanation behind the referral motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5a82936505845daa0437e30a7338d5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5a82936505845daa0437e30a7338d5f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f83f814c01ce4bed963e42b48cd3cc8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f83f814c01ce4bed963e42b48cd3cc8c\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I hear what the Minister is saying. One of the comments, though, is around the previous laws that have been poorly drafted\u2014laws from times gone by, to quote what the Minister said. And, of course, the Government and yourself, Madam Speaker, will just sort of think, \u201CWell, it\u2019s just the Opposition trying to slow things down for the sake of slowing things down.\u201D But what we\u2019ve seen is that a whole lot of mistakes happen, and I\u2019m concerned that it is actually only 33 working days. If you take into account King\u2019s Birthday and if you take into account our Matariki celebrations, and if you take into account weekends, it\u2019s only 33 working days for everything to be completed and done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAnd this is the concern I have, because it\u2019s a challenge for us\u2014and before the dinner break, we had the challenge around the regulatory impact statement for the water services bill that had hidden and incorrect language on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022088513b60a504068928cdebea823c949\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Different bill\u2014different bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fbebfead07a410eb9f363d5918d9536\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but I\u2019m making a case here, a pattern here. And, also, before the dinner break, the last Government speaker commended the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283a4bda8cb2c439b9a018d9176aa5f15\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Just come back to the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225771088bdc4641f9ba5d10429ba328aa\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I guess I\u2019m just building a case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209e43ad6619243e99779b710661cc133\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance\u2014relevance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b61cbb085624766b95f4bbe0884e6f5\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is completely relevant, because we want to get laws right, and the Hon Shane Jones said that there have been poorly drafted laws from times gone by. We don\u2019t want to be looking back, in 30 years\u2019 time, and have people talking about poorly drafted laws from times gone by and they\u2019re talking about us. So when you look at this I really do think\u2014[Interruption] Yeah, it\u2019s not us; it\u2019s the Government. I have to make sure I get that right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo it is really important, and there are two things I really need to say about this. One is around timing and those 33 working days in terms of community engagement and business engagement. We keep hearing that it\u2019s all about the economy and it\u2019s all about getting us moving forward and making more money, but we need to make sure that we do it with industry, so the challenge is having 33 working days, a really short amount of time, to get people to submit on the bill and get the bill right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESecondly, it\u2019s around the capacity of the workforce here at Parliament, and I have to say that the Clerk\u2019s Office and the Clerk\u2019s team do an exceptional job. And the fact that we\u2019re looking at legislation that\u2014we already had it; 18 July has already been used once today for the previous bill, and again for this. And, again, it is relevant because I\u2019m on the committee that\u2019s dealing with the fast-track bill which is taking up a huge amount of time for the Clerk\u2019s team, and they do God\u2019s work, because they are working day and night to make sure they get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo my question around this legislation is: if we can do what the Minister has said he wants done, we need a little bit more time. So I propose, potentially, a three- to four-month process. I think there\u2019s nothing unreasonable in that. I\u2019m happy to cede in a couple of months on the end, so not the traditional six months\u2014that is OK with me. We want to be fair and reasonable on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard what the Minister said about the time period in terms of these consents that are coming up for renewal. It\u2019s a large amount. And that\u2019s why we\u2019re not asking for 12\u2014and I\u2019m speaking on my own behalf here; I\u2019m not speaking on behalf of my party. We\u2019re not seeking the full six months. We\u2019re saying we should just extend it a little bit more so that, I say to the Hon Shane Jones, we don\u2019t have poorly drafted laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s really my point\u2014those two things. The first is the time frame for the community and for business to be engaged in the process, because business has so many of the answers and we support that. And the second is around the Clerk\u2019s team and the pressure that is going on here in Parliament. It\u2019s wonderful that we have such busy and engaged Clerks, but how do we actually make sure that they are equipped, that they are sustained to make sure that we can get this right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis bill, the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill, is not a big piece of legislation. But, as we\u2019ve seen already this afternoon, there have been a few holes and a few leaks in the boat, and we don\u2019t want that boat to sink. We want to make sure that we have it right for the sake of the future of New Zealand, because, again, we as parliamentarians want to be proud of our work, and I know that the Minister wants to be proud of the work that he does on behalf of New Zealand but also on behalf of the world. We need to get it right. We need to get it right for the sake of New Zealand, but also for the sake of our standing on the world stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo I think when we look at the date of 18 July, I\u2019d potentially\u2014and I\u2019m looking to my whip; I\u2019m unsure that I can propose this\u2014be proposing 18 September, so that gives us two more months to look into this. I would suggest 18 September as the date, and, secondly, that would give space to the Clerks to help get it right, for the submissions to come in, and for us to then be able to really critique. I know that good law is made\u2014I\u2019ve been here long enough now to know\u2014when we take the time to listen to the people, listen to the pros and listen to the cons, listen to business, listen to environmentalists, and to listen to iwi and hap\u016B, because we\u2019ve got to have everybody at the table to make sure we get it in the right place and we have it set so it\u2019s something that the Government can be proud to present when it comes time for Royal assent. Imagine that\u2014imagine if the bill went for Royal assent and then within weeks or days or months it had to be amended. That would be embarrassing, and we don\u2019t want you to feel embarrassed. We want to do our best to protect you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b619d3724024d5986c06f0ed138a05c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I won\u2019t be embarrassed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227668c19d2a7a428789e576bfebb4a164\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Speaker. We want to do what we can to ensure that this Government can be proud of the bills it puts through, and we\u2019ve really challenged you this weekend, I know, because there\u2019s been some stuff we\u2019ve really disagreed with. And this we don\u2019t agree with, but it is actually something we need to really consider because, as the honourable Minister says, we don\u2019t want poorly drafted laws. We don\u2019t want to be those laggards that, in the future, people look back at and say how wrong we\u00A0got it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002299a47fa520c34596a9c94eab181d172f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299a47fa520c34596a9c94eab181d172f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Thank you, Madam Speaker. No, look, we don\u2019t support the truncated period, which won\u2019t come as any\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1409454ce3847d88cbcc2fab8072097\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae3e90a7fc52463696b00f340bf764f9\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll tell the Minister why not, but before I do I want to support the views that have been expressed by my colleague Mr Bennett. What we are seeing in front of us this evening\u2014and I have to say it\u2019s a bit of a pattern that we are experiencing under urgency from the Government\u2014is a level of sloppiness that I think New Zealanders would find very distasteful. Actually, it\u2019s probably circuitous against democracy. We are starting to see Ministers that simply do not know what they are doing. I have real doubts around what will go in front of the select committee, given the haste within which\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc53fad5870468aa1e0d510ae5236fa\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Read the bill. It\u2019s right there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022469fdc8e7dfd4457b4908bcf7097c5dd\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, the bill is there. It\u2019s unfortunate the Minister wasn\u2019t able to actually move it correctly\u2014the referral motion that we are debating. Details matter, Mr Bishop\u2014details matter. This is just ongoing sloppiness, and it is a cascading theme of something that is rather shambolic, and they really need to sort themselves out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a bill\u2014and I raised this in my first reading contribution not that long ago. The Government has had a legislative programme. They had plenty of time to bring this to the House. They have chosen to do so under urgency. They have chosen to then constrain and suggest the truncation of a period of time in front of a select committee that will not be in the best interest of the community or of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022890de0432b87460d88efbc5e03836f0b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: You never did that, eh, ever? You never did that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fb78d740da54b9b9880083be6021e64\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t, Mr Bishop. I didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022026f322e4f654156b9e4e8add32b7ca4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve heard a lot about the aquaculture sector. Well, let\u2019s hear from them. Let\u2019s give them an opportunity rather than a short seven-week opportunity to actually hear from them. Maybe the Government does not want to hear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b5346db1ad240d7a7a849c9078a4925\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Here it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8236ccbc5014c30a7cd77989c005a62\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister is waving a piece of paper. Clearly, he thinks that because he\u2019s heard from them, this House\u2014members of the House via the select committee process\u2014don\u2019t need to. Well, Democracy 101, Minister Jones\u2014that\u2019s not quite how it works in this country. What\u2019s really important here is that if the aquaculture sector want to be heard, let\u2019s give them time to be heard. Let\u2019s hear from them. Let\u2019s ensure there is a clear and fair process for them to participate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI know the House has resolved that this will go to the Primary Production Committee. I have to say I haven\u2019t spent a lot of time on the Primary Production Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225af4c5b54c9494cbd6c3cc2132ded20\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d441237e7f94b108cec7a04d29aa499\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is relevant, because this is where it\u2019s going. What I do know is earlier in the week\u2014[Interruption] I don\u2019t know why members opposite want to make some undesirable and silly interjections when they already know the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0573e2bc9e04f1aaf83baa5ff8650bd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s actually a very good point, Mr Utikere. Please keep the interjections to the minimum and preferably witty and calm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aba86ed50f84cd5a52d24b6674877c4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Wit on that side of the House is clearly nothing in abundance at this time of the evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe Primary Production Committee is a busy committee. I spent some time on it this week. I know that they have a busy work programme, and I\u2019m sure other members of the House who are actually on that committee might want to contribute to give a bit more of a closer examination and view on that. This constrained time period is not going be helpful. If we look at the date that the Minister has proposed, we are talking about a report-back date to the House by 18 July. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do apologise to you, Madam Speaker. It sounds as though it is a little bit of a repeat of the previous referral motion, because it\u2019s the same date and it probably could be argued that it is the same set of reasons or examples that apply to this. But this is a separate bill, and so I do want to go through it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bec27c1789f48e29033d3ec5e651dd0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s brand new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3de01bb7aa7464381f4ecabfc54cacd\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a brand new bill. If we\u2019re looking at 18 July, and my colleague Mr Bennett has helpfully\u2014thank you, Mr Bennett\u2014identified it\u2019s 33 working days. I didn\u2019t think about the two public holidays there. If we have that as our end date and work back, let\u2019s think about the consideration for what is on the work programme for the Primary Production Committee. Let\u2019s think about the fact that one week will be taken out by scrutiny week, which is something that is extremely important for that select committee and all select committees to do. Let\u2019s think about the fact that it will provide a level of unfairness to any other matters that might be in front of the select committee. We are talking about a truncated period of around five to 10 days at most where members of the public will be able to submit on this bill and for members of Parliament to hear what it is that they have to say about it\u2014five to 10 days. The 10 days is probably being generous, to be honest; the five days is probably conservative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy view is that it is not fair to those who are engaged in aquaculture. It is not fair to the people who have already\u2014since this bill has been progressing through its first reading\u2014made contact with members of Parliament to express concern about the fact that they will not have a fair opportunity to engage in this process. The level of fairness is pretty important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a2b9f40a8574f9d95081a1ed4007399\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Mail is streaming in as we speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f74fc35814fb45a7a669e6dc36b7de4e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: They are streaming in. We\u2019re also talking about\u2014and I referred to this in the first reading contribution\u2014there are approximately 1,200 existing marine farms. Now, many of them will be in a number of different types of ownerships. If we\u2019re going to say, for example, that the chair of the committee may call for submissions later this evening, that\u2019s not going to be a huge period of time by which submissions will be allowed to go in. We are currently in King\u2019s Birthday. That rules out the communication level that some might be expecting where they might hear from this sort of stuff. It, in my view, is rather unfortunate, and so I think that\u2019s a consideration that the House needs to take account of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat we are talking about in this bill\u2014and this is very important\u2014is a proposal to extend by blanket opportunity a 20-year period. That is a significant period of time. Truncating that period of time by which the select committee would be required to report back, I actually, again, don\u2019t think is very fair. The argument that I am mounting this evening is one of fairness\u2014fairness to those who are involved in the aquaculture sector and those who are not involved in the aquaculture sector but who wish to participate and have their say on this. We are not talking about a bill that is going to, effectively, constrain something for a short period of time. We are talking about 20 years\u2014it\u2019s a long time. I challenge members opposite to suggest that 20 years is not a long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also got provisions in this bill around regional councils, and I know the Minister has a very strong view, it seems, around regional councils. They are part of the local decision-making and democracy process. To expect them to have a say\u2014and this is a bill that directly affects them. I can point to the relevant section if you would like. It is new section\u2014it\u2019s like an alphabet section\u2014165ZFHM. You don\u2019t see that very often, but it\u2019s alphabet section 165ZFHM. We might call it the alphabet section. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289cc2dbdd6b64e3fb23827d77ea39348\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Why is that relevant? Irrelevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3c3b3bf83c64082bea9c3feadaf03df\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. It\u2019s not irrelevant because it\u2019s in the bill. What this select committee process is about is hearing from the very people for whom this bill will have an impact. Our regional councils are directly impacted by this bill. Is five to 10 working days an adequate opportunity to allow them to submit? I don\u2019t think it is. Members on this side of the House will not support the truncated period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other thing I will say\u2014and then I\u2019ll conclude\u2014is that we again are starting to see something of a similar nature in that we are in urgency but it is very clear that the Government, in continuing to provide referral motions that are truncated\u2014when they actually get them right\u2014simply does nothing but continue to demonstrate that they actually don\u2019t seem to care about engaging with stakeholders. If they did care, they would want to make ample opportunity and provision for stakeholders and members of the community\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228486b37f5643440ebb5bb6453370eef5\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Marginal\u2014marginal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226423a7f4020c40448825651c952c0535\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, members of the community, Mr Jones, are not marginal. You might think so, but they are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffc6e65de2ea4a14b633414abca7b50f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: They shouldn\u2019t be marginalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e25704ffa7d436ca310201b77db7b91\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: They should not be marginalised. Exactly. This is an opportunity for them to have a fair go. A date of 18 July is far too short. I like the idea that Mr Bennett has suggested that, actually, it needs to be much longer\u2014well, not much longer, but a period of time longer. What we\u2019re asking for here is some fairness available. The select committee process\u2014the only opportunity that people will have to submit to this bill, which we can\u2019t say for some of the other items that are in the Government\u2019s urgency motion over today, 30 May\u2014is simply not fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI invite Minister Jones, and I invite members of the Government, to reconsider the referral motion and to listen to the arguments that have been advanced primarily on this side of the House around not just unfairness but the workload that we expect of people who have been working hard in this particular precinct while we\u2019ve all been here over the last few days. This is about making sure that the process is fair to everyone to participate in, and giving them as much time as is possible and necessary and fair is very, very important. And so, unless something changes in the next wee while from Government contributions, our position will continue to be one of not supporting a truncated referral period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022247a19f921c249d2856d2c526b52b85b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022247a19f921c249d2856d2c526b52b85b\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb4dfe3917da48b6a9fb3503d0655236\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb4dfe3917da48b6a9fb3503d0655236\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m really pleased to take a call in this debate as a member of the very hard-working Primary Production Committee. It\u2019s a fantastic committee with fantastic members on this committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI do want to share with my other colleagues and agree with the time frame that was suggested by Mr Bennett. And I do this genuinely. I understand that the Minister said he wants to give certainty to people and that there are consents that are due to expire at the end of the year, but I just wanted to make the Minister aware that the committee is already meeting during this period of time for hearing submissions on the Resource Management (Freshwater and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I do imagine there is going to be a large amount of people that want to submit on that, just as\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d8bda3411394b7cb44394c47fde95d0\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I doubt it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290fcb61b15f446e5918c03c455bb202e\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I think you\u2019d be wrong there, Mr Bishop\u2014we will see. But I do think that there\u2019ll be also a large number of people that will be particularly interested in wanting to submit to this piece of legislation. So I genuinely\u2014I genuinely\u2014do agree with Mr Bennett about extending the time frame out, simply because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022087582d6e1cf458793fa5f99d349dafc\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: We can do it, Jo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaeac413cf234a6bb5dbd0f0dafc3135\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the committee is already meeting during that time, hearing submitters on another bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAnd Mr Anderson says, \u201CCome on, Jo, we can do it.\u201D Well, actually, it\u2019s hard enough to get the members from that side of the House to decide what days they can fit into select\u00A0committee in their diaries, so that\u2019s been a challenge in itself. It\u2019s a fact\u2014it\u2019s an actual fact. And Catherine Wedd is someone who does have a bit of difficulty deciding what days in her calendar she can come along when we\u2019re meeting outside of regular sitting weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228261d3acd79457cbd8a0e248de0784a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can we stick to the motion before us, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d27c3112345e45838c73a28d0d46a56f\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will definitely. So one of the things that has come up within the regulatory impact statement is very concerning around the officials having limited information about the extent of data and evidence on the impact of what this piece of legislation is likely to do. They are unaware of what the actual problem in itself is and they\u2019re concerned about the pace of reform because it\u2019s limited the identification of options, the level of analysis, the collation and review of evidence, and engagement with iwi M\u0101ori and stakeholders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI think that that\u2019s really concerning if we\u2019ve got officials saying that they are concerned about the speed and the pace of this reform. If they\u2019re concerned about it, then I imagine that the public out there are very concerned about it as well. And I do think that it is only fair and it is only right that we give enough due consideration and time to those out there that are interested in\u00A0submitting, and on this piece of legislation that we do genuinely give them the benefit of time to hear from them and hear their concerns and actually to consult out there more\u00A0broadly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo, again, I do want to reiterate, I am genuine in my thoughts around extending the time frame for this. I do believe that if we were to extend it out to the date that has been suggested by Mr Bennett, we could still give the sector certainty quite easily by having a report back of 18 September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022f505f436e8cf4049a9af6a97bb68275b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f505f436e8cf4049a9af6a97bb68275b\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Thank you for allowing me some time to speak to this very important point about 18 July. Because what\u2019s been made really clear in the debate so far is that the actual complexity of these issues is not well understood. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWhat really concerns me, particularly coming from the Environment Committee is that it is going to the Primary Production Committee. Because what I\u2019m concerned about, and, actually, the Minister summed it up himself when someone mentioned seals or sea lions and the Minister was saying it\u2019s nowhere in this bill\u2014they\u2019re just not in this bill. But the complexity comes when the materials of loose lines and aspects of netting can actually endanger these marine mammals, and that\u2019s exactly what the committee is going to have to be focused on. That\u2019s the level of complexity that we need to go to, including the materials that are involved in these aquaculture activities, which can be hugely damaging to not only the marine environment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276f75ebd8fa94728b66410f7d70c6844\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re referring to the motion, which is the report-back date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286fdd26f745242ac9c6f8b9e530bf18f\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. And the important point that I\u2019m making, Madam Speaker, is about the complexity of this issue and how it is not possible for officials to capture all of that complexity for 1,200 consents in the marine space. And why I want to emphasise this is that, in the usual process, where these consents would actually come up one by one, either for renewal or as a new activity, there would be appropriate decisions made at the community and council level about who is publicly notified or limited notified or whatever the decision is made. But all those people would get to have a say: tangata whenua, council, public. This is 1,200 consents where that discussion will not be had. And the fact that we\u2019re trying to do this by 18 July is just astonishing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe actual mechanics of it\u2014and it\u2019s something that I really want to check out. The House is sitting for one week only between now and 18 July. It is absolutely astonishing to even have this proposed that there could be a good faith - evidence-based assessment by the committee by this time. And I want to point out as well, I mentioned the usual process where each consent would potentially be spoken to by the public, but I wanted to touch on the fact, for example, that in the Marlborough Sounds, the council, the community, and tangata whenua have been having actual, productive conversations for 15-plus years and they\u2019ve actually got somewhere. So the fact that this would just override the democratic processes that are already in place is completely inappropriate and exactly why this time frame is not going to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really concerned that this is going to have severely detrimental impacts, not only for the communities but particularly in the environmental space, and this is no small thing. It\u2019s something that the committee needs to examine with the full breadth of the public service available to them to be able to give it a genuine assessment. This is across the entire country and it\u2019s for 20 years. Many of these consents were actually granted before the Resource Management Act was put in place. This is no small thing. It\u2019s hugely serious and I would like due consideration, particularly from the Minister, but certainly from the Primary Production Committee, about how important this content is, the complexity of it, and it needs due process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI really invite the Minister to reconsider the time frame because I would propose that we need at least the standard six-month period, because this is the seriousness that this blanket approach is offering. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2008fee94c54146beef7d4c718a0c7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2008fee94c54146beef7d4c718a0c7f\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b9d007f4e86e40c98533882316dff4cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002284023ed424ac4768ac3fccf7c77b97b9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 18 July 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe3a3f25e1da4aaa8bbd79a88d31f100\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f705b48d98d542e6811604b7520d3f7b\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002203ed872a64b24cbdb38f47b9a7ad2ca7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203ed872a64b24cbdb38f47b9a7ad2ca7\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201bd7af355b0484581a7c050b90589ab\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on Parliament\u2019s website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277a5da17246542959f30024b0404c0e8\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill makes it explicit that ACC can charge debit interest where levies are paid by instalments. Some businesses choose to pay their ACC levies in instalments. ACC offers a range of instalment plan options and is able to charge the businesses that use them an administration fee. Being able to pay levies in instalments is a valuable option for many businesses and self-employed levy payers, especially those that may otherwise struggle to pay their levy invoice in a single payment on the due date. Right now, businesses that use 10-month instalment plans are charged debit interest as the administration fee. The practice dates back to at least 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EACC has charged debit interest on the understanding that the Accident Compensation Act 2001 allowed it to do so. The Government considers it not clearly allowed for in the Act as part of the administration fee. While other parts of the Act could be used to support the practice, that too is uncertain. The practice is therefore vulnerable to legal challenge from levy payers have paid debit interest in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EACC charging businesses debit interests when they use an instalment plan is the reasonable and prudent thing to do. By allowing businesses to pay their levies in instalments, ACC is foregoing any interest it would have earned from investing the funds. If it could not charge debit interest on instalments, this would, effectively, be a cost to ACC. It would also mean that businesses paying their levies in a single payment on the due date may be subsidising those businesses paying in instalments. This would be unfair for those paying their levies in a lump sum on the due date. Debit interest also disincentivises opting for payment by instalments as a cheaper source of finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EBeing able to pay levies in instalments is a valued and well-used option for businesses that might otherwise struggle to pay the levy invoice in a single payment on the due date. To support this further, the amendment bill will enable ACC to waive debit interest charges under certain circumstances set out in regulations. I believe we need to ensure businesses and self-employed people continue to access this instalment plan service when they need to, particularly as alternative sources of borrowing would cost them more. There is therefore a need for clarity in the Act to ensure that the charging of debit interest is lawful. The amendment bill will provide that clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThis Amendment Bill will explicitly allow for ACC\u2019s charging of debit interest on instalment payments for the work account in the Act. ACC would also be able to charge debit interest on any other instalment plan options it offers in the future. This would initially be the current rate of 2.73 percent for 10 months, and 0 percent for three- and six-month plans. The rate would then be varied, through amendments to regulations, as necessary, to reflect changes in interest rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill also validates ACC\u2019s past practice of charging debit interest. This is to contain the risk of a legal challenge from levy payers who have paid debit interest in the past. ACC acted reasonably in charging the interest and it would likely be operationally very difficult to refund the debit interest charged over the extended time span of 20 years or more. The bill makes sure that ACC can continue to apply this reasonable charge, and protects ACC from challenge for having charged debit interest in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EIn summary, this bill makes important changes to ACC that will ensure that ACC is not disadvantaged for offering options that make it easier for some businesses to pay their levies, that there is fairness between levy payers paying in lump sums and those paying in instalments, and that ACC is protected from legal challenge for charging debit interest on instalment plans. Thank you, Madam Speaker, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3f0377d5397410699285c56b50b77d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3f0377d5397410699285c56b50b77d7\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As Labour\u2019s ACC spokesperson, it is a pleasure to take a call on the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. This is a technical bill that amends the Accident Compensation Act to formalise the charging of debit interest charges to businesses who pay their ACC levies through a payment plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EACC is a taonga. Just recently, we celebrated 50 years of ACC in New Zealand, and, from time to time, we will bring technical amendments to the House, which, in my view, should be supported by all parties when that opportunity arises. Labour will be supporting this bill tonight. A lot of the work towards this bill was undertaken under our former ACC\u00A0Minister and my colleague Peeni Henare, and so we are pleased to see this legislation introduced tonight and to see these changes made to ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAs the Minister has pointed out, and I will just cover off some of these points in my contribution, this particular practice has occurred at ACC since 2004. So, for the last 20\u00A0years, ACC has offered levy instalment plans to businesses. As part of that practice, they have charged debit interest, and what the bill will do tonight is ensure that that is included in legislation so that there is clarity in legislation about ACC\u2019s right to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe bill will retrospectively validate ACC\u2019s past practice of charging debit interest, and it will provide an explicit legal authority for the ACC to continue to charge debit interest. There are many reasons why businesses will seek to take up an option of paying off their levies in instalments. For many businesses, it will be a matter of cash flow and not being able to be upfront with the payment when it is due. Currently, these businesses, including the self-employed, can spread their payments over three, six, or 10 months. In order to ensure fairness to ACC and to other businesses who pay all of their levy up front, ACC does charge a small debit interest payment. The power for ACC to accept the payment of a levy is covered for under the Accident Compensation Act, in section 234. However, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) have identified that there was a risk that ACC may have been acting outside its legislative scope. So one of the reasons why this bill needs to be introduced is to ensure there is that legislative clarity going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI do note that MBIE and ACC have differing views about whether ACC has been acting outside its legislative scope, and I will foreshadow that we will have questions for the Minister around the process that has been undertaken during the committee of the whole House, so that we can be assured that all of the legislative interrogation has incurred through that process. The advice from MBIE is to amend the Act in order to provide that needed clarity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI will just note the two parts of the Act that work together, which, according to MBIE, lead\u00A0to that lack of clarity. The first, as I already mentioned, is section 234, which states that ACC \u201Cmay charge a reasonable fee to recover its costs of collecting any levy by instalments.\u201D Alongside this, in section 333(1)(b)(i), the Act states that, \u201Cthe matters in respect of which fees or charges [are] payable under this Act, including any administrative fee payable in respective of levies paid in instalments\u201D. And what the regulatory impact statement states is that reading these two clauses together, MBIE does not consider that it is reasonable to recover the cost of collecting through a debit interest fee. So what this bill will do when it becomes an Act is it will retrospectively allow for this to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIn an interim phase, there will be rates set in this legislation until regulations are made, and so going forward, the debit interest payments will be undertaken through secondary legislation\u2014so through regulations. Until that time, under this legislation, ACC will continue to use the percentage payment that has been used in practice\u2014that will be in the law that we pass\u2014and that will apply only to the 10-month instalment period, which is 2.73 percent. It will not apply to those businesses who use a three-month or six-month instalment period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo, as I stated, this is a technical bill. Labour will be supporting this bill and we look forward to further debate and to seeking further questions from the Minister during the committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00224e2ad3d92f35462c8f11a063318171ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e2ad3d92f35462c8f11a063318171ce\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E As the Green Party\u2019s ACC spokesperson, I will be speaking on the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. I have to say that that is probably the first time I\u2019ve actually spoken on something that is relevant to my portfolio today. Although this is a technical bill, the Green Party will not be supporting this bill, however. I will lay out why we will not be supporting this\u00A0bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFor this bill, we\u2019re looking at charging debt interest on levies that are being paid under instalment plans, both in terms of the instalment plans that are collected by instalments but also on past levy collections. Now, we know that levies are incredibly important for the function of ACC. I echo what others have said in terms of celebrating the 50th anniversary of ACC. I remember reading the original Woodhouse report and the white paper on why we introduced ACC in the first place, which also had bipartisan support. It is one of those things that is quite unique to Aotearoa New Zealand, having such a scheme. The Green Party understands the importance of the levies that we collect through ACC. These levies help pay for key things that we do see that ACC is being used for. The Green Party has called for further coverage for ACC and branding ACC as the agency for comprehensive care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EUnder the previous Governments, one of the acknowledgments I would like to give is to the Green Party MP Jan Logie, who did so much work in her ACC portfolio, particularly being able to pass having traumatic birth and birth injuries being recognised by this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d2329d54d43467297961ebf07e04595\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: That was us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2200e7261394576b2e6dd65033591c8\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: That was Jan Logie. You had your chance. You can correct that later if you would like, but Jan Logie did an enormous amount of mahi on this, and I remember watching her giving speeches on the experiences that people had as part of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut, as part of the agency for comprehensive care, we would like to see greater cover for the use of ACC. Partly it\u2019s around extending ACC to cover all workplace injuries, including gradual injuries, and having ACC cover mental injuries, not only as a result of physical injuries. It is very explicit how mental injuries are covered in the legislation; they are paid for by the levies that we\u2019re currently discussing in this bill. Also, we are ensuring that all disabled people must be covered in this. All of these are being paid for by the levy and the interest that we are discussing right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, drawing back to the bill, the first thing around this bill is the fact that it will give ACC the ability to charge interest on levies that are collected by instalments. We have no issues with that. The problem here\u2014and here is the crux\u2014is having the recognition of past levy collection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe are looking here at retrospective legislation. I quote, in the explanatory note, the \u201CBill retrospectively validates the ACC\u2019s past practice\u201D\u2014which was dubious, legally speaking\u2014\u201Cand provides an explicit legal authority\u201D, which means that they currently do not have legal authority for something that they are already doing. That is concerning to me because it means that ACC is currently doing something they shouldn\u2019t have been doing, and the Government is allowing that to be passed so that way there are no consequences to what the ACC has been doing. So although there are parts of this bill that we do support, and we do like to see the use of ACC and the use of the levy going to greater coverage in this enormously important scheme, we cannot support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8e5d98fb9824fb1a53846ceb7d096f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8e5d98fb9824fb1a53846ceb7d096f0\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am taking this call to support the first reading of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EFirst, I would like to address some of the points that were made by the Green member Lawrence Xu-Nan. This bill is not about including or excluding any injuries. This bill is about simply fixing something that ACC has been doing for a number of years\u2014around 20 years. We want, through this bill, to validate that because, at the moment, we know that what ACC has been doing is not covered in any legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe know, as the member also acknowledged, that our accident compensation scheme works really well. It\u2019s quite unique, and it is the envy of many, many countries around the world. We want to make sure that it\u2019s able to deliver for businesses, for its stakeholders, and for that, we need to make sure that it is complying legally as well. This is about making sure that people are still able to opt for the instalment option and, in the instalment option, ACC is able to decide if they want to include the interest in the instalment or not. So we want to give authority to ACC to decide that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThe Minister the Hon Matt Doocey has already described what this bill is about, so I\u00A0won\u2019t go into a whole description of this bill. This is a bill that we really need. This should pass under urgency. It\u2019s a very important bill. That\u2019s why the ACT Party is supporting this\u00A0bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00226c4d5f79e5d34974976d7db2f0633c06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c4d5f79e5d34974976d7db2f0633c06\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. Look, this ACC invoice arrives, and it\u2019s one of those invoices that many business owners forget about, and they go, \u201COh, geez! I\u2019ve spent all my money.\u201D So it is a very good thing to be able to offer them instalments. All this bill does is it just changes a few technical things to ensure that the legislation is validated, so of course it\u2019s common sense. We\u2019re a party of common sense, and, of course, New Zealand First will support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022b039a7b706254abbbd625d1a38ef4d60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b039a7b706254abbbd625d1a38ef4d60\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. Now, as a previous speaker, our spokesperson on ACC Rachel Boyack stated, we will be supporting this bill. But that doesn\u2019t mean we don\u2019t have some questions for the Minister that we will need to go through at the committee of the whole House stage, and just some issues that I think are important to raise during this first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think there\u2019s disagreement that the fact that ACC charges this debit interest is a necessary part of their business model. But, you know, it\u2019s not an ideal situation to have a bill which imposes retrospective validity on actions taken by a Government department that the regulatory impact statement states quite clearly are in order to avoid legal challenge by members\u2014by businesses. And yes, they are businesses. They are not technically, necessarily, individual people but they could be single director companies. They could be individuals whose right to take legal action\u2014I think is probably as far as I would go with this particular advice\u2014is taken away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve looked through the information provided, although obviously having this through urgency means there\u2019s not a huge amount of time to go through all of that information. There isn\u2019t a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet. But I think we can all agree that retrospectivity in legislation is not a great place to be. And that\u2019s not putting the blame on the Government, necessarily. The Government relies on ACC to independently conduct its operations legally and, obviously, this is an issue that has traversed different Governments of different colours over the years. But the Government does have a responsibility to make sure that the legislation they put up is addressing something in an appropriate way. And as I\u2019ve said, we are supporting this, but there are a few issues in relation to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI think the main issue, really, that I wanted to highlight is the difference in opinion\u2014which I think was foreshadowed by Rachel Boyack\u2014between ACC and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) in relation to the need for this legislation. Now, that is also not ideal. Ideally, you\u2019re getting advice and there\u2019s a clear way forward in regards to a situation where you have MBIE, who\u2019s offering policy advice, and ACC, who\u2019s the agency involved. Ideally, you\u2019d have them having the same opinion. In this case, perhaps it\u2019s not surprising that ACC thinks that it acted, you know, perfectly legitimately\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cfbb2b385054e319198bc91178a61d6\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2430b4e80bb4b09ae3ddadbc750cea6\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and there is an argument to say that they did. I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s necessarily that funny, but it\u2019s not surprising, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df2ba06af084aebbb00a9c29e1a478b\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course they\u2019re going to have the view they acted lawfully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cf861555e9548598e4b98b695c66e6d\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. The Minister is interjecting and, in fact, reemphasised the point that I was making, which is of course ACC has that view. MBIE has a different view and they have provided advice in the regulatory impact statement to say that, potentially, there does need to be a change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere were really two options provided to the Government moving forward. The option one was status quo, no action\u2014you know, ACC takes the risk. It may be that someone takes a case, it may be that they\u2019re successful, it may be that they\u2019re not successful. That\u2019s legal risk. I mean, that happens all the time in business, it happens in Government, it\u2019s not surprising in and of itself. That risk, by this legislation, is being taken away. But there\u2019s also downsides to that as well, and the downside is kind of what I\u2019m bringing up. Rachel Boyack has set out the policy reasons why it is a good idea to address this, but it\u2019s not a perfect situation. I\u2019m sure the Minister feels the same way. It\u2019s not why he wanted to be the Minister for ACC, I\u2019m sure, to bring these types of bills to the House, tidying up a somewhat messy situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn the regulatory impact statement, we do have the acknowledgement that this particular approach would attract some public scrutiny around ACC\u2019s past charging of instalment plans on debit interest, and this may lower public confidence in ACC. Now, obviously, none of us in the House want that. We want ACC to have a lot of have public confidence, we want ACC to have good practices, and I think this is a bit of a lesson for\u00A0them to make sure that all of the procedures that they are going through in relation to\u00A0charging are legitimate and are within the law. And I suppose the fact that this has been\u00A0picked up at this stage, prior to a legal challenge, indicates that they do have some\u00A0way of looking at their practices in order to identify that and obviously bring that to the Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EJust in the last few seconds, I did just want to suggest to the Minister I will be asking a few questions at the committee of the whole House stage just to make sure that the scrutiny occurs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u00223fd4a17ce0e8448ba5b43daf453d1370\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fd4a17ce0e8448ba5b43daf453d1370\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, this is a quite simple administrative change. It\u2019s something that we very much support\u2014good tidying-up measure\u2014and thank the Minister for ACC for his work getting this done. So, with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8fd955caa18424ab6d8a5106e2f6970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8fd955caa18424ab6d8a5106e2f6970\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to make a contribution tonight on the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. As my colleague Camilla Belich has just noted, I suppose, I don\u2019t think that the Minister Matt Doocey necessarily thought that during this urgency period this was going to be his major piece of work. I\u2019m sure he\u2019s got more up his sleeve as we as we go through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENevertheless, as previous speakers have said and stated, Labour will be supporting this bill because it is needed. It\u2019s a technical bill that fixes up some stuff and that\u2019s important to\u00A0do. That is what we are here for, after all. As Rachel Boyack, who\u2019s our spokesperson for ACC and who, I know, is quite passionate about the ACC portfolio and has lots of interesting stories to tell about all of the intricacies of ACC legislation, noted, it is a taonga\u00A0and we do have to do our best to make sure that it\u2019s fit for purpose, that it\u2019s in good shape, it\u2019s raring to go, and it\u2019s able to do and provide the services and the assurances and\u00A0the safety nets and all of the wonderful things that it does for the people of Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s important for us here tonight to ensure that it is compliant, that it\u2019s doing its job, and, as people have also alluded to, it\u2019s also important\u2014given that we\u2019re now doing it in urgency\u2014that we get it right. So there will be some questions through the committee stage. If we\u2019re going to have a look at something, it\u2019s important whilst it\u2019s in front of us that we take the opportunity to make sure that we go through several of the issues that have been highlighted in the regulatory impact statement and raise them with the Minister tonight and give us some peace of mind that we\u2019ve done our job properly to make sure that that\u2019s all good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, as Camilla Belich also mentioned, when you look at a regulatory impact statement\u2014and we haven\u2019t had a lot of time to do so\u2014one of the first things you notice is if there is some difference of opinions between bodies. The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), and ACC obviously have some differing views but, as the Minister has pointed out, that\u2019s not uncommon when an organisation has been used to doing something a certain way and then it\u2019s pointed out to them that they may have a somewhat different interpretation of the way that they\u2019ve applied the legislation that they act under.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EBut, essentially, it is our job to ensure that the ACC levy collection power is fit for purpose. It\u2019s an important power that they have because it\u2019s an important programme that\u2019s in place. Businesses\u2014be they small, large, sole traders, individuals, all sorts of people\u2014I think in a modern world need to be able to take advantage of an instalment payment plan because that makes sense. We just need to make sure that it doesn\u2019t come at a cost to ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ELooking at the regulatory impact statement, as I said, MBIE\u2019s recommendation was the option that obviously has been taken because it provides the clarity that we\u2019re looking for and it kind of promotes the fairness between the levy payers because if you\u2019re able to\u2014well, it validates and makes it compliant. But part of paying something by instalment means that you haven\u2019t had to make those up-front costs, so it\u2019s important that the people who choose to not make the payments and not use instalments aren\u2019t\u2014that there\u2019s fairness and equity amongst those two options. So I think that that\u2019s fair enough as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EMBIE also recommends that the past practice of charging the instalment plan fees as part of that debit interest charge is retrospective. I can see where people are coming from\u2014it\u2019s almost an automatic sensitivity we have to anything that has the word \u201Cretrospective\u201D in it, because it\u2019s something that we should be in tune to. We know that nine times out of 10, it\u2019s not necessarily something that is good and it can lead to outcomes\u00A0that are not as good as we might hope for, but sometimes actually it\u2019s really sensible. I think that when we get into committee stage, there will be people that want to talk about that a little bit more\u2014not necessarily to disagree with it, but to make sure that we\u2019re all on the same page and we understand why that is important, if it is so, to include that as part of the measures here tonight. So I\u2019m happy to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u002257a5068ad44344b3ab34b40354fab2f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257a5068ad44344b3ab34b40354fab2f2\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I have particular interest in this bill, and therefore I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00222c5b6ef16ed94c189e998aacbb9d79d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c5b6ef16ed94c189e998aacbb9d79d3\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d just like to preface my contribution with a clarification on the record that the Green member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan had talked about the Greens having introduced the birth injuries changes to the ACC laws. In fact, it was the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, on 27 September 2022, when the word \u201Caccident\u201D was extended to include \u201Ca force or resistance internal to the human body at any time from the onset of labour to the completion of delivery\u201D, and that was the provision\u2014that small, little change\u2014that has enabled 28,000 birthing parents to be able to access ACC. So it\u2019s quite a significant change and a great change for women, and I would just really like to acknowledge my colleague because I feel it was a bit unfair. Of course, the Greens did sign a petition, which is great, but it was under the Hon Carmel Sepuloni that that came into force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe other thing I\u2019d like to say is we are supporting this bill, and, for me, it really does encompass a little bit of a grey area of law. We have the ACC on one side, trying to be incredibly fair and say that whatever interest they charge needs to be able to\u2014or the justification is that people who are using instalments might actually end up better off than people who pay the fee up front. There has to be a kind of netting-out so that the equity issues are included for those who may need an instalment payment\u2014particularly, say, for smaller-business owners\u2014but also that people don\u2019t take advantage of it and use instalments and somehow rip off others just by making sure that they can take advantage of the future value for money. So it is a grey area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI think the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment have said, \u201CWell, this is problematic. We don\u2019t see certainty in the law.\u201D ACC have said, \u201CYes, we have.\u201D I don\u2019t think they\u2019re trying to scrape or skim the top; I think they\u2019re really trying to come down in a fair-minded way, and it\u2019s to do with the provisions in sections 234 and 333(1)(b)(i). The first one is that ACC \u201Cmay charge a reasonable fee to recover its costs of collecting any levy by instalments.\u201D That\u2019s section 234, and section 333(1)(b)(i) says, \u201Cthe matters in respect of which fees or charges are payable under this Act, including any administration fee payable in respect of levies paid in instalments\u201D. Now, I can see, as a lawyer, how both of those might be relevant interpretations, and I think it\u2019s important to note the word \u201Cany\u201D in section 333(1)(b)(i), including \u201Cany administration fee\u201D. That would suggest, in my view, that there is scope to be able to add the interest rather than to assume that it is corrected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt is a debate; it is arguable. So what errs me to that side is that we do have a situation, as alluded to by other speakers, that it appears that the ACC has been acting ultra vires the Act. That is never ideal, just as cleaning something up retrospectively is not, either. But cleaning it up retrospectively is always better than allowing that ultra vires action to continue and to expose the Crown to risk of litigation. I think the risk of litigation may perhaps be overstated, so I\u2019m not sure about the use of urgency, and that\u2019s something I\u2019d\u00A0like to interrogate as we get into the committee stage. But, for those practical reasons, I think this House could take either side of the debate. It\u2019s probably important to say that it\u2019s justified to add the interest in there, and then to be able to clean the whole thing up nice and tidily with this Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EHaving said that, there are legal principles at stake here to do with retrospectivity, as colleagues have alluded to, but also how the relationship between those two provisions might set a precedent for other legislation with similar types of conundrums. So I think it is really important that we do take the time to unpick this and have a very clear and technical explanation from the Minister recorded on the Hansard through question time\u00A0at the \u201Cde facto select committee process\u201D, because we\u2019re not going to have one\u2014and I can see that Minister Doocey is getting ready by having a swirl of water. It looks like he\u2019s going to go into the ring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re all on the same side here. We want it to go through, but we need to be very, very clear and accurate about our reasons. So, for that reason, I\u2019ll commend this to the House and look forward to asking my questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00228c667667ef2b46d9a98f29fc4015f983\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c667667ef2b46d9a98f29fc4015f983\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I just wanted to raise that, quite unusually in the House tonight, I\u2019ve seen two members in the Chamber using their phones\u2014the phone function on their mobile phones, not just looking at their phones, which we know happens quite often. I\u2019d just to draw your attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 19/4\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee05525ad2ca41b39ed2035fa8df9a0f\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Have you seen your colleague?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227d49a7c2c05433981a876ace4b1e85b\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t actually see\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd41e17be4b48ed8be97bc3e83afc42\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will finish her point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7984920c87a4167a8b1881fc6d029a1\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the phone function, Mr Doocey, and points of order, additionally, under the Standing Orders, are to be heard in silence, as I understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bbc7bab88db4c4a8425a7abdaf02923\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I didn\u2019t know we had class monitors in the House. I think it\u2019s getting a bit extreme doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022227d48e93f9d4ec4a4734d853e118ef1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c429dbea72b542de8674f558ede6d013\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Cell phone ban!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a709271ab52462a97cb25c8ee10beb7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Calm down. Speaker\u2019s ruling 19/3: \u201CThe telephones in the Chamber should be used rarely and not so as to interrupt the business of the House.\u201D And Speaker\u2019s ruling 19/4: \u201CMembers do not use the phone function of cellphones when the House is sitting. There are a number of members who have phones at their desks for particular purposes\u2014senior members and whips\u2014and my ruling is that members can use those phones, but not cellphones, while the House is sitting.\u201D So please put your phones away, members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022098c8167546144cb961a02c32b5e78bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022098c8167546144cb961a02c32b5e78bb\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is a common-sense bill, and there is plenty of common sense on this side of the House, so I commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022606f140a1ab241e8aded5c1511a2b92c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001090\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c7944b0561c47d993cc9ffd0b1af2e9\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00223f1fd6679e0440cc9ab7b52ac8dc248b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f1fd6679e0440cc9ab7b52ac8dc248b\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe bill does two things. First it amends the Accident Compensation Act to explicitly allow for ACC\u2019s charging of debit interest on instalment payments for levies payable to the work account. Secondly, it validates the past use and current charging of debit interest on payments of levies by instalments to protect ACC from legal challenge to this practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ECharging debit interest on payments of levies by instalments is a prudent thing to do. ACC forgoes any interest it would have earned from investing the funds when it allows businesses to pay that way. It would, effectively, be a cost to ACC if it could not charge debit interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EFrom the point of view of businesses and self-employed levy payers, being able to pay levies in instalments is a valuable option. That is especially true for those that may otherwise struggle to pay their levy invoice in a single payment on the due date. If the option did not exist, these businesses may have to access alternative sources of borrowing that would cost them more or be unable to pay their levies at all. Debit interest also ensures fairness between levy payers. With it, businesses paying their levies in a single payment on the due date may be subsidising businesses paying in instalments. We need to ensure that businesses continue to have access to this instalment plan option when they need to. Charging debit interest is a fair and prudent way to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill will provide clarity that ACC can charge this debit interest lawfully. The initial rate of debit interest on instalment plans set in the amendment bill would be at the current rate of 2.73 percent for 10-month plans and zero percent for six- and three-months plans. That means a smooth transition where nothing will change for businesses as the bill comes into force. The rate then could be varied through amendments to regulations as necessary, which would only happen after public consultation on the matter. Regulations would also set out under which circumstances debit interest charges could be waived.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe bill will also retrospectively validate the historic and current charging of debit interest. Validating the practice of charging debit interest in this way avoids the risk of ACC being legally challenged on its charging of debit interest on instalment plans and the money charged over the last 20 or more years needing to be refunded. This bill is validating something that was understood by ACC to be unlawful and is a reasonable practice that ensures neither levy payers paying on the due date nor ACC are disadvantaged by the offering of instalment plans. But it\u2019s open to legal challenge, because the Government considers that charging interest is not clearly authorised by the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EEveryone\u2014ACC and levy payers\u2014will benefit from this issue being clarified in the amendment bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022e97d49bb1b4c43fea69b49e741c54c47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e97d49bb1b4c43fea69b49e741c54c47\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to taker a call at the beginning of the second reading of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. I wanted to take some time at the beginning just to clarify the reason why these instalment plans are in place, particularly for our friends\u2014and\u00A0they are our friends\u2014in the Green Party. But I do just want to talk through why we\u00A0do these instalment plans and why there is debit interest charged, and, actually, even though we have this practice in place, other options for small businesses could actually cost more. The Minister has mentioned that, but I want to go into just a little bit more detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ECurrently, for businesses that wish to, they can pay their ACC levy in an instalment. When the bill arrives at the beginning of a financial year, instead of paying the entire bill at that point, what businesses can choose to do\u2014and it\u2019s primarily small businesses, sole traders, those who for cash flow purposes can\u2019t pay the entire bill in one hit\u2014is to have an instalment plan of either three months, six months, or 10 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ENow, one of the things when you read through the regulatory impact statement that\u2019s really clear is that if businesses didn\u2019t have an instalment plan through ACC, they would actually have to access some other form of finance in order to pay. So, say they had a really large bill that for cash-flow purposes they wanted to smooth across a 12-month period, which is very common\u2014particularly for small businesses\u2014they would have to access, potentially, finance from, say, a bank in order to pay for that. What ACC does is they charge a small debit interest fee of 2.73 percent, which is less than what a small business would have to pay if they sought finance through the usual means. So, actually, what it does is it means it is beneficial to those businesses. It allows them to access an affordable instalment payment plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other thing I think we need to be mindful of is that there are businesses who do pay up front. Actually, we also have to remember what the purpose of the levies that ACC collects is, and ACC collects these levies in order to provide services to New Zealanders who are injured. So any money that is lost to ACC through allowing instalment plans is actually revenue that is lost to ACC, and that revenue lost to ACC is to actually provide treatment and support to New Zealanders through things like rehabilitation, through things like remuneration, through things like injury prevention. I note that this is an area where ACC is doing some trimming back, which we are concerned about, but we can talk about that another day. The levies that we pay actually support ACC to continue to be the taonga it is. So I think this is a really pragmatic way and it appears that most of the House believes it\u2019s a pragmatic way for ACC to allow small businesses, sole traders, those who have cash flow challenges to pay their ACC levies in instalments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve had some commentary during the first reading tonight about the fact that this practice has been in place for 20 years, since 2004, and I do just want to acknowledge my colleague, the former Minister for ACC the Hon Peeni Henare. This work began when he was the Minister. What has occurred is that ACC\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6922fe8eb674672b722c880d79f5f6b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Great man\u2014great Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d758cf98abd047eba2ca96e8f5d4f6cf\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: He was a fantastic Minister and a very, very good MP, and, yep, I\u2019m sure he\u2019s looking forward to getting back into a ministerial role, Mr Bishop. What was acknowledged was that ACC, in good faith, had been operating under the belief that the practice was lawful and in line with the Act, and I think we\u2019ve foreshadowed that we are keen to ask the Minister some questions about this in the committee of the whole House stage. What has occurred is that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) has said, \u201CWell, actually we don\u2019t read the legislation in quite the same way.\u201D, and so we do have a difference of opinion between the two agencies. What that has led to is the need for us to get that legislative clarity, and that\u2019s actually an important thing for this House to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI think it should be acknowledged that for the most part, all of the House agrees that we are in that position where we need to get that clarity so that we reduce legal risk in terms of challenge to ACC, but also it\u2019s important that ACC is operating within the law. So if the law is not fit for purpose, it should, therefore, be updated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI did just want to talk through that a little bit because I\u2019m very keen to ask the Minister some questions about his views and the advice he\u2019s received on that interaction between section 234 of the Act and section 333(1)(b)(i) of the Act, because MBIE\u2019s view is that when you read them together, you wouldn\u2019t consider the debit interest fee to be a real version of an administration fee or the cost of collecting\u2014that is MBIE\u2019s view. ACC holds a different view, and so we are keen to just make sure that that has been tested out thoroughly, because, as some of my colleagues have mentioned in previous speeches, it is appropriate for us to ask those types of questions. What the regulatory impact statement did state was that at a minimum, the difference in views is evidence around uncertainty, and actually as a House and as a Parliament, if we see that uncertainty in law, then we should be bringing it to the House to update it so that we don\u2019t have that uncertainty going\u00A0forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThere will probably be a few other questions about how the regulations will be put in place. What the bill does is until such time as regulations are set, because the bill sets out the process for stipulating regulations through secondary legislation, that until that time\u2014as I mentioned earlier in my first reading speech\u2014that standard percentage of 2.73\u00A0percent will be applied for the 10-month instalment plans. It won\u2019t be applied for those on shorter plans, which, again, is pragmatic. For those people who are able to do a three- or a six-month instalment plan, those particular plans won\u2019t be required to pay the 2.73 percent debit interest payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI also just did want to clarify\u2014and I note my colleague did this, as well\u2014that this bill is primarily around instalment plans for paying levies. There has been some commentary tonight around coverage for ACC. As the Labour Party, we are very proud of the work that the previous Minister prior to Peeni Henare undertook\u2014the Hon Carmel Sepuloni\u2014to include birth injuries, and that was supported across the House, as well. So I do want to acknowledge that I think that with ACC, it is such an important institution for New Zealanders. It has been operating for 50 years and it was set up by Labour 50 years ago. It\u2019s one of those agencies where it\u2019s important that as much as possible, we can approach changes to what we do with ACC in a bipartisan way, because it needs to be an enduring organisation and provide services in an enduring way. So it is pleasing to see most parties come together tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI did also just want to touch on the element of retrospective law change tonight, because the House should always be concerned when we make changes to the retrospective. That\u2019s natural and that\u2019s something we should ask questions about, and, again, I would probably expect we will ask questions of the Minister in the committee of the whole House about things being retrospective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI guess the fact is that this has been in place for 20 years. We have had businesses been quite willing to undertake the instalment plans, been quite willing to pay the debit interest. We\u2019ve had ACC operating in good faith. The pragmatic situation is if we don\u2019t make this legislation retrospective, what will then happen is we will then have the potential for 20\u00A0years\u2019 worth of challenge from those businesses who have been paying the instalment plans and paying the interest. Of course, that provides a risk to the Crown, but it also would potentially have a cost to ACC if there was a situation where those debit interest payments had to be repaid. We wouldn\u2019t want to see that, because, again, that would actually take away from the moneys available to ACC to actually provide the services to New Zealand that New Zealanders expect from ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really looking forward to further debate on this tonight. It is an important bill. It\u2019s surprising to see it right at the end of urgency, but Labour is supporting this bill, and we are looking forward to engaging in a good debate tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdd7a6b8e92040478ff73afa8fb7306f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdd7a6b8e92040478ff73afa8fb7306f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa85c10bbfe940168ac3ef842ce7c6f4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re going to be for ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afacf9f35dfb4bdfbbac0e64202b3362\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve still got Tuesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226172e94ecd248bb97000243f915e1fa\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, we still got quite a few more to go, but everyone is doing well. First of all, can I just say that this is my first time going under urgency and I do find the whole process of having to go from first reading straight into second reading kind of odd. It\u2019s almost kind of like how are you going to make things a little bit more interesting the second time around, and more nuanced. The first\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246abc320581f4655b9fcfa7e4bc51c94\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you don\u2019t have to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e5026e780f0471486ab4d6abfcfec80\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, but I do love to. You know, the first reading is about painting the picture of what we would like to see when it comes to ACC\u2014or agency for comprehensive care\u2014and also what the levy could be used for and the way that it could be expanded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would like to pick up on something that has been said. I would like to point out that what I said in the first reading is that our previous spokesperson for ACC, Jan Logie, was instrumental\u2014I did not say that she was the one who passed it. I think it\u2019s unfair for both Jan Logie\u2014and I think Carmel probably wouldn\u2019t be happy as well to underplay the importance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a6bfb5a4d9f4c9bbd7d2ecc2763f47a\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Sorry, Mr Speaker, I don\u2019t have the particular provision, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3d820939eb42afacd960d38f083ec4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019m thinking the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222324700fe8814351b7be4122651915db\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014members are required to call members by their full name, not first\u00A0names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226029c7068f2b4a4a88485d50f7972214\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, please call members by their full name. Also, please don\u2019t refer to members when they\u2019re absent as well. OK, continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e6dbea2909946559f8bf5346f02744e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you for that, Mr Speaker\u2014that\u2019s well noted. I think that we shouldn\u2019t under-appreciate the contributions that the previous Green Party spokesperson for ACC, Jan Logie, has played on that important bill. I thank you, Ingrid Leary, for the correction and I thank you for the point of order, for making me aware of that particular nuance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to this bill, we talked about some of the specificity around it in terms of the two main provisions, which, one, allow for businesses to have the ability to have an instalment plan when it comes to levy invoice\u2014and the second one is around the retrospective amendment and the retrospective validation of ACC\u2019s past practice. I think this is something that our colleagues\u2014my colleagues\u2014have already mentioned, which is around the fact that when the IT system was first introduced, ACC was not sure when the practice of charging interest started. But it\u2019s confident it has been charging interest on instalment plans of various lengths and\u2014like the previous speaker Rachel Boyack said\u2014for the last 20 years. I think this is really significant when we are looking at the IT system that ACC is currently working on, particularly in light of the current public services cut\u2014into ACC as well, where a huge chunk of the IT team is being cut alongside other core teams such as the preventative team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis is really important in this context: when we are looking at these sort of IT hiccups, what additional things could have been teased out, and does ACC currently have the ability\u00A0or the confidence to reassure the Minister for ACC that there isn\u2019t anything else that we haven\u2019t been made aware of and that we would have to create retrospective legislation for\u00A0because they have done something ultra vires? Again, I appreciate the reminder\u2014from\u00A0one of the previous speakers\u2014of that particular legal nuance as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThese are some of the questions that will be really interesting to tease out during the committee stage around the interactions and the capacity that ACC currently has in terms of managing or mitigating some of these errors that could be decades in the making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think the other element in here that\u2019s also really interesting to tease out is that the\u00A0ministry for business, innovation and entrepreneurship\u2014I think; I only ever know it as MBIE.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276bae92458bb45918b390f9e07c5b1b8\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Innovation and enterprise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df9fcffd647b438085cd71d0fbab3c10\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: And enterprise, not employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224591d47de2ba476f98cd4313747d7067\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d26db89adbb44c8844cdeec19f71db2\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh my God! Yeah, so the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2014thank you. MBIE and ACC have a disagreement around this particular thing, and it also highlights the really important issue when it comes to multi-agency collaborations and multi-agency discussions that take place. Again, something like this\u2014if it happens, what other things could potentially be highlighted as a result of this legislation. Again, ACC is something that covers such a broad area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, I want to address the main reason why the Green Party is not supporting this bill, which is the retrospective element of it. I think, in general, we hold this principle that, you know, agencies, if you do make a mistake like this\u2014and I appreciate what the previous speakers have mentioned in terms of the potential repercussions that this will have if we don\u2019t retrospectively remediate it. However, I would like to point out that\u2014in this case, what about those businesses who have been paying it? It is an assumption that we make when we\u2019re saying that these businesses are OK with paying in instalments and are already paying the interest that\u2019s being charged on the instalment for the levy. However, there has been no consultation that has been taking place when it comes to this and whether businesses\u2014particularly I\u2019m thinking of small businesses, individual employers\u2014are actually happy with the fact that they have been charged this for the last 20 years. I think this is something that is also really important to tease out as part of the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI understand the importance and the cost this potentially will incur if we don\u2019t retrospectively fix this issue\u2014that is, if we don\u2019t fix this issue, there may be a fiscal implication in terms of the revenue that is generated by ACC. However, I know that people from across the House, and particularly on the other side of the House, have questioned some of the relevance around this. My question for this is: in the context of why we are here, in the context of the fact that we are talking about this particular bill, which people have said is a minor and technical bill\u2014again, we have seen a number of minor technical bills which have much broader consequences and much broader repercussions that would have been teased out if we had gone through a select committee process and allowed people to submit on it, so that, even as parliamentarians, even as MPs, even as spokespeople, we\u2019re able to learn more and understand more of the stories, the individual stories, of our communities. But my question here is\u2014and this is something else I would like to tease out during the committee stage\u2014around the relevance of this particular bill in the context of the Budget urgency. I think that\u2019s also something that I\u2019m really looking forward to asking the Minister on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, when we are looking at this bill, we have mentioned the implications around the ability of, and the confidence that we have in, ACC to not have any other major issues or any other repercussions that are highlighted by this. We have talked about the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2014thank you\u2014and the lack of agreement that they have with ACC. So these are going to be some of the areas I\u2019m going to be really, really interested in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe last thing I want to mention\u2014I just want to go back to talking about the fact that we haven\u2019t been able to have consultations on this bill. In this case, I\u2019m thinking of and sympathising with small and medium enterprises and, again, those small employers who may be paying instalments over this because they are unable to pay the full amount and the annual amount in one go. I know that there are different reasons why people choose to pay in instalments, but I would really like to know some of the advice and some of the data around how much they were being overcharged, and, again, whether they are happy being overcharged for this amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThese are all of the questions that I have when we go into the committee stage. I\u2019m, again, really looking forward to engaging with all members of this House, and particularly the Minister for ACC, on this. For the last little bit of time I have left, I just want to reiterate that because of the retrospective nature of the second part of this\u2014there are a lot of good things in here and a lot of good things we can tease out. Simply for the fact that the Green Party has never wanted to align with any sort of retrospective legislation unless it\u2019s an absolute emergency, we cannot support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00224a6a7c78797644fd8f270ae2353b7f8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a6a7c78797644fd8f270ae2353b7f8c\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support the second reading of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. We really want to see that ACC is able to offer this instalment option for stakeholders\u2014for those who are not able to pay their levy as one amount on an annual basis. With this instalment option, those people who have cash-flow issues, especially small businesses that the Green member talked about\u2014they can take advantage of it. We really want to see that small businesses are able to afford it and this option is available to them, but, on the other hand, we want to make sure that this is not unnecessarily costing ACC, because we want to see that ACC is able to provide the accident compensation services that they provide. So that balance is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EI do understand the retrospective argument that is coming from that side of the House,\u00A0but in this case we can clearly see that this is not to provide advantage to any one particular individual, and in that regard, it is quite safe. This has been happening for the last 20\u00A0years, and I really believe and the ACT Party really believes that this needs to be validated. That\u2019s why the ACT Party supports this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00220ad1a17a89d441ffa86f59ad33ad2341\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ad1a17a89d441ffa86f59ad33ad2341\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Look, it\u2019s important that current legislation is solid and sound, and we have seen that there is a need for a technical change to avoid any potential legal challenges on ACC\u2019s current practice. So, given that, New Zealand First will support the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6be2381bbed435f85d2f6d074bf3106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6be2381bbed435f85d2f6d074bf3106\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u00226b3a3df1b89745f4afd9735040927352\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b3a3df1b89745f4afd9735040927352\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this bill, the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI think with the current speed of some speeches, it\u2019s probably good that we just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f1c6d99825346cb866f00ae10f4c842\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t read your speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224f76a4aac8f4849b2fa7ac785e42d01\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, trust me, my friend\u2014trust me, Mr Speaker. You can assure that member that I will not be reading my speech. That would be far too fast. As I was saying, the current speed of some of the speeches concerns me. It makes me think that possibly, at the speed that people are standing up, they should be wearing a seat belt,\u00A0and at the speed that they\u2019re crashing back down into their seats, they possibly need\u00A0airbags because the speed is far too fast. To bring it back to, ultimately, what the role of ACC is\u2014because of the speed those members are moving at, they may well need their services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EACC\u2014just to remind us\u2014provides cover for everyone in New Zealand who is injured in an accident. I\u2019m just reminding us because having some people not taking the time to speak on it makes me concerned that, possibly, that\u2019s not known. It\u2019s the safety net to get people back on their feet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve had some personal experience with ACC. Thankfully, it was only minor injuries, back in my much fitter days, when I made the mistake of running a half marathon and ended up spending the next six weeks in a moon boot, whereas now, thanks to my belt, I just model the squeezed middle quite frequently. As an employer, I\u2019ve also known that our ACC levies are crucial and important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a few things that I want to single out about what this bill does. One of the things that I really want to look at here is the retrospective validation factor, because that\u2019s where we get into tricky ground. That\u2019s where we get into an area where it\u2019s crucial that we take the time to get this right because we\u2019re not just talking about a plan for the future; we\u2019re talking about going back over the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we are very committed to making sure that we take the time to address this very thoroughly and look at the issues very specifically, because in the regulatory impact statement\u2014and this is where it\u2019s a concern that we\u2019re really skipping out the proper select committee process. There\u2019s two points I\u2019d like to raise on page 8 in paragraph numbers 27 and 28. Paragraph 27 states that \u201CThere is likely to be some negative reaction to the legislation as it will highlight that ACC\u2019s past and continuing practices may not be lawful. That said\u201D\u2014it goes on; I am reading now for that member who queried earlier\u2014\u201Cwe would expect businesses to be supportive of the principle that a levy payer\u2019s choice to use an instalment plan should not advantage or disadvantage them compared to other levy payers.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, that kind of concern being raised in a regulatory impact statement would suggest to me that there are multiple players and multiple layers who deserve the respect of the select committee process to put their cases forward, and for that tidily summed up in one paragraph issue, which really is the tip of the iceberg, to get the attention, the focus, and the cross-party scrutiny of the select committee forum\u2014not doing that seems, to me, like a very, very rushed process and not like good process. So I really think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb0dd85b20c448d78239cea030610195\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us what you think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202e53b25623045b09a3439a61e60b6bf\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you for reminding me\u2014that the opportunity here is to give this process the respect that it deserves and take the time that we need\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e93098cea6945c6ac135a20078e7e19\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve had 20 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d79c36378ae4814a9858cc619410dd3\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to do this properly. If we\u2019ve had 20 years, as that member piped up, it\u2019s probably not a huge issue if we take 20 more minutes, or 20 more days, to get it exactly right, rather than trying to rush it through in 20-second calls, where the greatest risk is that the microphone isn\u2019t turned on by the time the member sits back down. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6b907eafdec4a8c97c02367943b6cdb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6b907eafdec4a8c97c02367943b6cdb\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E So we are here. Saturday night. Is it 1 June, King\u2019s Birthday weekend? Yes. It\u2019s International Children\u2019s Day today and I am actually the Green Party spokesperson for children and I know that ACC does wonderful things for children. I know my children have benefited from ACC because they are lovely active kids\u2014as have I. You know, I\u2019ve got six metal screws in this arm from that cool snowboarding accident I had; I\u2019ve got a couple of screws in my foot down here; broke my tailbone; this collarbone. Yeah, me and ACC are great friends and I really appreciate the mahi that they do to ensure that New Zealanders can get the healthcare that they need when there has been an accident or a big trauma in their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ENow, ACC charges levies on everyone who works or owns a business in New Zealand, and this covers the cost of supporting the recovery of people in injuries and accidents. So the levies can be paid by instalment, as we have heard, rather than of that lump-sum payment. Now, as the child of two parents who were both small-business owners, I know that having this flexibility is key to keeping that cash flow going and to making sure that they can sustain their businesses onward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EMy dad is a te reo M\u0101ori teacher and I know one of the National MPs here has also been one of his students, so that\u2019s a nice little whakapapa there, and my mum ran a maths and English tuition centre\u2014so really important mahi that they were doing there. To have this flexibility for them and for those other small enterprises in New Zealand is a really good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThis bill allows ACC to charge debt interest on instalment payments starting with the current existing interest rate and it can be updated by regulations, subject to public consultation. This bill also retrospectively validates the past and current processes of charging debit interest on instalments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThe reason that the Greens are opposing this bill today is that the interest is justified by ACC because they\u2019re missing out on investing that levy revenue in ACC\u2019s investment fund because of the delayed payment plan. We all understand this, and this interest helps fund important ACC cover\u2014just like those metal bars in my arm. This bill will not change the current experience of businesses and self-employed people when paying their levies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EHowever\u2014and this is the big thing, however\u2014we are against the retrospective validation of actions that were against the law unless the circumstances are exceptional, and this does not meet that threshold of charging retrospectively. Like I said, as the child of two small-business owners, we know that this change in this bill will disproportionately affect small and medium enterprises in New Zealand. We want to make sure that we aren\u2019t disadvantaging and disproportionately affecting those small and medium businesses; those mums and dads who are just wanting to put food on the table, who are doing things like teaching te reo M\u0101ori to National MPs, who are doing things like teaching our kids maths and English\u2014kia ora, member David MacLeod\u2014now I can mention who my dad taught that te reo to. Tihei mauri ora!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ENow the Greens do have a vision for ACC in New Zealand and that is for a holistic social security, health, and disability system focused on the wellbeing of the people of Aotearoa. I know that we can achieve that, and if we have public consultation on this with stakeholders who really understand this and who will be affected by this, we could really tease this out and improve this bill. But until then, we will be opposing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022482a44d948f94196aa4cd1a8dad550ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022482a44d948f94196aa4cd1a8dad550ff\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, I am slightly confused by the previous member, Kahurangi Carter\u2019s contribution, as to whether they do or don\u2019t in fact support this bill. However, what I am certain of is that I do support this bill, and with that I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ece10b116b224a04bb6cf58429cd38d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ece10b116b224a04bb6cf58429cd38d5\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. What the member who has just resumed her seat, Katie Nimon, lacked in longevity, I will make up for in the next 10 minutes. So never fear; ACC won\u2019t be going anywhere soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022214ec65af3e041a38eb9da4655474422\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Neither will you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022997ce4df710247e79513d8f99fe48452\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Neither will any of us. A little fun fact before I start and provide you with a bunch of fun facts. Talking about technical fixes and technicalities and things like that, it was mentioned earlier that it was 1 June but, of course, because we\u2019re in urgency, it is still the 30 May. Therefore, many things remain the same, including the fact that it is still Mike Butterick\u2019s birthday, so he is a very lucky man. I hope that his colleagues have been showering him with gratitude, attention, presents, and all those sorts of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7555af6e09840dc97043b2bc75ddfeb\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: And cake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cf211d1756b4824bcc294d58d710619\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: And lots and lots of cake. It is incumbent upon them to\u00A0do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe are now on the second reading debate of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill, which we are supporting. We are entering into this process under urgency, so it feels a little bit weird to have to read a regulatory impact statement, sort of digest everything, and quickly see if there are any issues before we have the Minister in the seat\u2014and I can see him preparing, doing some deep meditation over on the other side of the House before he before he regales us with all his wisdom on ACC. But that\u2019s good. There\u2019s nothing wrong with preparation and a calm attitude. We have several questions for him so that should be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESome of the contributions have been very brief, so it feels like it\u2019s been a bit of a long time before we\u2019ve actually just got back to basics, so let me cover off some of the basics now. The problem with this is that essentially ACC have been doing something and only now has it come to light that probably not everybody would agree with the correct interpretation of how they should be doing it. I think that the lack of clarity or the issue has arisen because of the definition of what an administration fee is versus what the debit interest on the instalment plan is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen paying by instalments, the Act allows for ACC to charge a reasonable fee to recover its costs of collecting any levy instalments. And as Rachel Boyack pointed out, I think earlier, or it may have been Ingrid Leary, section 234 of the principal Act is where you\u2019ll find that information. Once a levy payer agrees to use an instalment plan, then the fee becomes part of the associated levy for collection purposes, which is perfectly fine and makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAlternatively, if the levy isn\u2019t paid by the due date and an instalment plan hasn\u2019t been agreed to ahead of time, then penalty interest begins to accrue, and obviously that\u2019s a situation that\u2019s not ideal. When we think about ACC, when we think about our businesses, our small businesses, our sole traders, the breadth of people that pay ACC instalments, it\u2019s incumbent upon all of us to make sure that it\u2019s something that people buy into, that people contribute to, and that they do in a timely way, and that it\u2019s not onerous on them and it doesn\u2019t put their business at risk and, therefore, doesn\u2019t put at risk a system that we all rely upon. If people are paying penalty interest because the instalment plan is not the favourable option, then I think it\u2019s perfectly proper for us to fix up anything that could cause that confusion. So as Rachel Boyack said earlier, the fee for the 10-month instalment plan is currently inclusive of debit interest, and we\u2019ve established that; that\u2019s fine. ACC has interpreted the Act as allowing it to charge that particular debit interest where reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting\u2014I find it interesting, and others may agree\u2014that due to the changes in IT systems, and, obviously, staff turnover\u2014and we\u2019re talking about a period of 20 or so years, and people come and go. So due to changes and staff turnover ACC can\u2019t actually be sure when this practice of charging interest started. At first read, you may think that feels a little bit odd, but when you think about it, that\u2019s not that uncommon as things change. But it is confident that it has charged interest on the instalment plans of various lengths since at least 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that, as I think we mentioned earlier, the view of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) is that they don\u2019t believe that the relevant sections of the Act provide for ACC to actually charge that debit interest as part of the instalment fee. As we\u2019ve talked about, it\u2019s not unusual\u2014and the Minister has pointed this out himself\u2014for ACC or anybody to think that what they\u2019ve been doing isn\u2019t necessarily the correct interpretation. So it is important for us to be here tonight\u2014or not necessarily tonight. It\u2019s interesting, because I imagine it has to be done in a timely manner, and maybe Rachel Boyack will talk about that later, but it\u2019s interesting; I would  have expected that it was done maybe a bit sooner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022353353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cc1a57ad6dc4cd1baba23b7429d7add\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you were in Government and could\u2019ve done it, and you\u00A0didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba19d33797c2497ea1803e191f949415\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, a little bit sooner in this urgency process\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b4631eeb7744ec8ee7b517658e182b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Patience; you\u2019ll all have your turn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bceede809e14de6bb7df2393cb0acf4\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s fine. I\u2019m more than happy for people across the aisle, particularly Ministers, to make a contribution and soak up some of that time. I think that was about 15 or 18 seconds, so, Chris Bishop, you\u2019re on fire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThinking about ACC, though\u2014and it\u2019s a bit relevant to the previous outburst\u2014there are plenty of things that ACC do not cover and there\u2019s lots of things that they do, and we\u2019ve had some discussion tonight that isn\u2019t technically part of this but I think it\u2019s worth thinking about as we prepare the questions for the Minister in the next stage of this process, and I know that my colleagues will be looking at various other bits and pieces of that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EMBIE have, obviously, done the work. A regulatory impact statement has been produced, and, as people know, they have to look at options, counterfactuals, and various other considerations. MBIE have recommended the approach we\u2019ve taken tonight, but they\u2019ve also warned, as my colleague Reuben Davidson said, that it could attract some public scrutiny around ACC\u2019s past and current charging of those instalment plan fees. I think there\u2019s always a risk when something comes to light, and the first rule is to make sure that we correct something as it comes to light, but we also need to be mindful that public confidence can also take a bit of a tumble in that process. So this could lower public confidence in ACC, so I can see why we need to do this and we need to do it now. So MBIE considers that this approach is justified because it ensures that ACC\u2019s past and current practice is validated, according to the regulatory impact statement, to remove any legal risk and so that any future instalment charges are able to be appropriately set in those regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI know that the Green Party have said explicitly that they won\u2019t be supporting this bill as it goes through the House under urgency tonight on 30 May because of the second part, which is about the retrospectivity. I\u2019m sure they will have a host of questions for the Minister and that the Minister will be able to elucidate and maybe allay some of those concerns if he\u2019s on top of his game, which I\u2019m sure he is. So I think that it\u2019s good\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231c87b166fa645d8883d99f8dce43eb1\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d3916b3dc247bb866798f3cf72edd0\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014I think it\u2019s good to value our ACC institutions, to have the chance to think about all the wonderful things it contributes to our society, and as we sit here in the House tonight, we\u2019re presented with an opportunity to make a technical fix on something that will ensure it is in tip-top shape to lead us into the future. For that reason, I\u2019m happy to commend this bill to the House at its second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u002217f4a91eda244f22bc2a0883e7ac032d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217f4a91eda244f22bc2a0883e7ac032d\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Sitting here this evening, you understand two things: firstly, why the last Government got nothing done, because they take so long to get to the point, and secondly, that this bill is actually pretty simple, and if we got to the point, we would get it done and be able to focus on the next thing, and that is that we just need to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a03976c3eaad4b30af0c81236e6b98b2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: A five-minute call\u2014the Hon Jenny Salesa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225b1cd856c81f4684ba0339443b619c6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b1cd856c81f4684ba0339443b619c6a\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Labour\u2014Panmure-\u014Ct\u0101huhu):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava, Mr Speaker. It is indeed wonderful, and I\u2019m humbled to give a speech on the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill on a Saturday night under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThis is a bill which amends the Accident Compensation Act 2001, the principal Act, which primarily will enable ACC to change interest on levies that are collected by instalments, and it will also validate interest that has been charged by the ACC in the past on levies collected by instalments. Labour supports this bill and I want to cover a few reasons why we are supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EFirst, this bill seeks to enhance financial flexibility for businesses, and it does this by allowing more manageable interest rates on ACC levy instalment plans. This can especially be advantageous for small businesses, and we support small businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EIn addition, this bill may reduce the financial burdens by lowering interest rates, and this may encourage more levy payers to choose instalment plans in order to pay their ACC levies. This can enhance compliance and timely payments, which may lead to revenue streams for ACC that is more stable, so we hope. Also, in light of the economic challenges brought on by the recent global events like the pandemic, it is probably wise to offer a more accommodating payment structure at ACC which can assist those who are still recovering financially, because it is in no one\u2019s interest to cause undue financial issues for our small businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThere are some concerns and I want to cover some of those concerns. Because, on the flip side, there is a potential for revenue loss. I say \u201Cpotential\u201D because we don\u2019t quite know yet. But those who do not agree with changes to ACC argue that interest rates on\u00A0instalment plans could potentially be reduced, thereby reducing ACC\u2019s revenue. Now, unfortunately, a significant decrease in interest collected on overdue payments may result\u00A0in budget constraints at ACC and this may in turn affect ACC\u2019s ability to serve people. It is my sincere hope that this does not happen, Minister. I\u2019m just saying that there is a potential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAlso, it is likely that when a new interest calculation method is introduced, there will probably be some administrative costs. So it is crucial to ensure that any new system that\u00A0is introduced is managed efficiently, and I\u2019m sure the Minister will ensure that this happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAnother risk is the fact that if interest rates are indeed lowered, it may actually reduce the incentive to pay what is owed to ACC in a timely manner, and this might lead to some businesses or individuals delaying payments intentionally. I hope this does not happen. Especially if they are aware that penalties are going to be less severe financially for them, some people might choose not to pay on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EOverall, though, we are very supportive of this bill. My colleagues on this side of the House have already covered some of the risks or some of the issues that came through, especially in the regulatory impact statement (RIS). One of the things that we see on the RIS is there are two parts to the problem that this bill is trying to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EFirst, it is trying to ensure that ACC\u2019s levy collection power is fit for purpose. Second, the bill is also trying to address the risk that ACC has been acting outside of its legislative scope.\u00A0Now, also on the RIS, we see that there are two Government agencies that don\u2019t quite\u00A0agree on this issue\u2014ACC and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2014and one of the things that we\u2019ve already signalled to the Minister is there will be a number of\u00A0questions around this issue, because we do want to ensure that ACC, not only in the future,\u00A0currently, as well as in the past, has been acting within its legislative scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EUnder the regulations that will be made in the future, the interest rate payable on levies collected under a 10-month instalment will be 2.73 percent. However, there is no interest payment charged on a three-month instalment period or, indeed, a six-month instalment period, and we would like to ask the Minister more questions on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u002264fcbd1ceeda4bf9b2b91f3235fae28a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264fcbd1ceeda4bf9b2b91f3235fae28a\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, 30 May has been the gift that\u2019s just kept on giving. It\u2019s actually given to a lot of other New Zealanders as well, which is great. This bill is about a simple, technical fix and it\u2019s as simple as that. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022fab676b3dc7f404f92caf3a15dace173\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fab676b3dc7f404f92caf3a15dace173\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I was wondering how I could best use the 10\u00A0minutes I have available to contribute to this conversation, because the other side of the House might think that this is about filibustering, but when we have a piece of legislation that has a very grey area in it, it is really important that we get this right, and there\u2019s a few reasons for that. One is simply because we have got a number of competing arguments from two different agencies where it\u2019s pretty easy to see the rationale on either side, and so we need to make sure that whatever decision we make this evening, it is rational, logical, justified, and clear, not just for this case but also because of the type of precedent it may set for other agencies wanting to embark on a similar exercise. So it is very, very important that we are clear for the Hansard that any precedents we set as we make these laws\u2014because that\u2019s indeed what we\u2019re doing this evening\u2014are going to be able to inform future decisions in the Public Service in a way that is in the best interest of New Zealanders and is consistent with jurisprudence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI think, also, it\u2019s important to get this right because we\u2019ve heard that ACC is a taonga and the jewel in the Crown, but there are many people who are quite weary of ACC. As an electorate MP in Taieri, I\u2019ve certainly spent a large number of hours dealing with cases where people have had to fight ACC to have an injury recognised. One of the previous speakers spoke about the fact that some things are covered and some are not, and, indeed,\u00A0the question of coverage and what is and isn\u2019t covered is the most controversial part of this wonderful scheme. It was always going to be that way, but for some people there has, in the past, been a sense that they are in a situation of David and Goliath. So they\u2019re not\u00A0starting from a position of trust, and it\u2019s really important that we are clear that ACC\u2019s\u00A0intentions this evening about setting this levy are appropriate and that it can build\u00A0trust with the public, because without that trust, the mana of this taonga is diminished, and as with all good public institutions, trust is actually really important to their longevity and sustainability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe final reason that I think it\u2019s really important is because I perhaps would not have recognised the questions and the unpicking and unpacking that we need to do here had it not been for the excellent paperwork that\u2019s been provided by whoever has prepared the regulatory impact statement (RIS). It\u2019s about 15 pages long, and it details really, really methodically the logical process that officials went through to come to the conclusions that they did. In fact, the conclusion they came to is not a clear one, because it says, \u201CThis uncertainty suggests that the current legislative settings are not fit for purpose.\u201D and that it isn\u2019t a sort of clear-cut decision; it\u2019s a line call. That raises a whole lot of questions, not only about how this came to pass, that suddenly we are thinking about this when for 20\u00A0years it hasn\u2019t been on people\u2019s minds, but also just going through the really clear analysis, that does raise a bunch of questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to let you know that when we get to the committee stage, and given that we\u2019re under urgency and given that this is retrospective and that there won\u2019t be a select committee phase, given that it\u2019s a grey area of law and given the need to protect the precedents that\u00A0we\u00A0are setting and all of these elements, I\u2019ve got about 30 discrete questions\u2014absolutely\u00A0discrete questions\u2014that I would like to ask in a back and forth with the Minister for ACC. It will be an absolute pleasure to engage with him in his ACC capacity, because I\u2019m used to\u00A0engaging with him more through the media in his mental health capacity, So it\u2019ll be great to\u00A0start with a clean slate on ACC and to be able to really get across, particularly, his thinking, because at the end of the day that is what is going to inform the Hansard. So we need to have\u00A0a clear record of what the Minister is thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo I will save my contributions around those 30 questions, which I do hope I get through in the committee stage, just to go back to why we have this grey area. Some people have referred to it, but I think it\u2019s really important to look at the two sections again, because that\u2019s essentially what we are going to be interrogating here: sections 234\u2014of the ACC Act\u2014and 333(1)(b)(i), which need to be read together. As you\u2019d be aware, anytime we read clauses together in an Act, it makes it doubly complicated. Reading one clause is difficult; reading two together requires a bit of extra thinking, which is another reason that we need to be forensic in how we approach this in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe first one says ACC \u201Cmay charge a reasonable fee to recover its costs of collecting any levy by instalments.\u201D\u2014and that\u2019s under section 234. So the elements of that we have: that they \u201Cmay\u201D, so there\u2019s no requirement to do that, and some of the questions will be about the, I don\u2019t know, natural justice issues of whether, given that they\u2019ve been doing this for 20 years, there could be a requirement in natural justice and public expectations that even though there is a \u201Cmay\u201D there, perhaps that needs to happen. A \u201Creasonable fee\u201D: what is the test of a reasonable fee and what is a fee, and how does that include penalties, because we\u2019ve got a reference in a table somewhere to penalties, and it\u2019s the only time that I see that referred to, although I will have a closer look at the legislation to check that, given that we\u2019ve just had this dropped on us pretty much today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224db35d22aa694bc7b432edf0cde39230\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve seen it on Thursday. You\u2019ve had two days with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225967cb55c4d0424f9c83bbbbffc6250f\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Then we\u2019ve got the\u2014it\u2019s still the same day though; Mr Bishop is saying that it\u2019s dropped on us. It\u2019s still the 30th.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c0c20516a7540f58ee48db8c6bbd856\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s still Thursday!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc8f7e6e9434b38978c03305c61e1f4\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s been a long day\u2014it has been a long day. We\u2019ve also got the other section there, which talks about them being able to have an instalment plan and to be able to charge \u201Cany administration fee payable in respect of levies paid in instalments\u201D. So I think that the word that we need to look at there is \u201Cany\u201D, and as I said previously in the first reading speech, a generous interpretation of that would mean that that would include an administration fee, would include a penalty fee, potentially, but certainly an interest fee. So we need to decide: is it an interest fee and a penalty fee, is it just an interest fee, or does it not include it, in which case we wouldn\u2019t support it, but I think we\u2019re going to? Then \u201Cfee payable in respect of levies paid in instalments\u201D, and there are some questions, as the Hon Jenny Salesa has mentioned, about why those particular interest charges and levels were reached. What was the evidence base for that? So there will be a lot of questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe final thing I\u2019d say is that also in the RIS, there\u2019s lots of assumptions about drivers of behaviour\u2014why people might choose to take an instalment or to pay their ACC levy or go to an alternative source of finance\u2014and I think it\u2019s really important to learn from the Minister what the evidence base for that is. I understand that there\u2019s a logic around the drivers and the incentives, but it may not simply be enough, because we don\u2019t know, for example, without evidence what the charge, the alternative charge, would be if somebody went to the private sector and thought, \u201CI\u2019m just going to get a loan, pay this up front.\u201D So I think we do need to see very clearly how the RIS has been formed. If the officials have done what I think they may have done, because they\u2019ve done such a great level of detailed work, perhaps they have gone out and done that consultation and got all\u00A0of those numbers and that data. I think that would be really interesting to find out and\u00A0would certainly provide us with some assurance given that we\u2019re going to be supporting this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe other thing is the penalty: there is a table on page 10 that I\u2019ll be asking questions about, because there\u2019s an average business levy of $7,276. The fee on a 10-month instalment plan currently at 2.73 percent is $198.63. When there\u2019s a total penalty interest over a 10-month period, assuming the levy\u2019s not paid, that lifts it right up to $761.23. That\u2019s quite a jump, and so I think it will be important for us to understand how the penalty is justified over and above a standard interest fee, whether there is any compounding element to that, and how that fits in with the purpose as stated in the bill, which is that this is about fairness. There\u2019s a whole deconstruction of fairness that we can go into, because penalties sound like, actually\u2014it might be a part of deterrence or drivers, but it could also be about punishment, and so really unpacking that in the committee stage would be great. I could go on all night, but I\u2019m sure that we will come to that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef1a8edf8e1b4fb19141206171056c4e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, you can\u2019t, because the member\u2019s got two seconds left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d97a828f1e944e7493b35a21af73fb11\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: So, two seconds left\u2014thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u002222cb466fa0db40e2ab334ae084149597\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222cb466fa0db40e2ab334ae084149597\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c7992089808741edab2c041bea4fd343\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001211\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221320198d19d340b388bfdbe9306b89eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221320198d19d340b388bfdbe9306b89eb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b88d6a9ee3af4584b8d0fe446d97e913\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002223f70ae96c8a402695f6f3a4dda87e01\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002280dc0bb29aa34a17bf9389395d78e5ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280dc0bb29aa34a17bf9389395d78e5ef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. We come first to the debate on clause 1, which is the debate on the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022626e9f3e96704ed2b06505fd05d042aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022626e9f3e96704ed2b06505fd05d042aa\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. When it comes to the title, we have the title as the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill 2024. For this one I have a tabled amendment. This particular one is really important when we are talking about the title, because in fact there are two parts to this bill\u2014the first part being the interest on instalment plans and the second part being the retrospective validation. This is going to be really important because this is where the Green Party does not support the bill, because of the retrospective validation element. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think both parts need to be equally highlighted in the title, so I have tabled an amendment which is amending the bill title to the \u201CAccident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans and Retrospective Validation) Amendment Bill 2014\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215d9344111cc43da80eac926517fc228\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e6da19d1ad74739a64d71ef5437a387\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: 2024, not 2014\u20142024. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022826289870aac4f11aea58f25d948272f\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014that would be retrospective!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f78ec7edcd44c1eb5b57f02895e1cfd\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: That would be retrospective! Thank you. This is the thing: one of the questions that we have for the Minister, when we are looking at this title and when we are looking at the broader context, is whether he has considered\u2014in lieu of the fact that we didn\u2019t have a select committee\u2014the business confidence and what business says in terms of the intent of the retrospective validation of this bill. I think this is really important because of the fact that if we were able for this to go into select committee\u2014if we were able to hear from businesses and the businesses were like, \u201CYou know what, we didn\u2019t notice. We are really happy with paying for this and for you to retrospectively change it.\u201D\u2014having that community and business confidence and hearing from those employers and businesses might actually change the position that the Green Party has on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy question, first of all, to the Minister around the title is whether he has considered including both elements\u2014which are equally important and address two very different aspects of this bill\u2014in the title. In addition to that\u2014because of the fact that we have, like the previous speaker has mentioned, a really, really robust regulatory impact statement which says that businesses have not been considered\u2014the second question is whether the Minister had any conversations with businesses around whether the retrospective element should be included as part of the title and, indeed, being a really legitimate and important element of this bill, because I think that is going to be the crux of this when we are looking at the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ETo the Minister, the first question being whether the Minister would have considered including both equally important elements of this in the title. I genuinely encourage and really hope that the Minister takes my amendment seriously; that makes it a really clear, concise\u2014maybe not concise\u2014and obvious name that I have tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second question is whether the part around the retrospective validation, which I have tabled as an amendment to the title, has been discussed, or even in conversations that you have had as the Minister for ACC with ACC itself or, potentially, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment around business confidence and the business feedback on the mistake that has been made because of the IT changes. So those are my two initial questions to the Minister, and I thank you for this opportunity, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002282a40575f84a447587b4d1f375aca250\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282a40575f84a447587b4d1f375aca250\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E  Thank you very much, Mr Chair and everyone here tonight for what I think is an important bill for an important New Zealand institution. As some have mentioned\u2014the Opposition ACC spokesperson Rachel Boyack\u2014ACC recently celebrated 50 years, and like any 50th birthday party, that should be acknowledged. It\u2019s a great institution for New Zealand, and I\u2019d just like to acknowledge my predecessor the Hon Peeni Henare, who was the ACC Minister before I took up this\u00A0role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ETo just respond to that member, he talked about certainty, because, of course\u2014as we know in this House\u2014business, whether it be small, medium, or large, needs certainty to make business decisions. We are talking here today about a levy for the work account\u2014so that is employers or the self-employed. What this bill will bring today is certainty for those businesses to make sure that they can make decisions going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022538c59886b6d427e837bc905c157eaa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022538c59886b6d427e837bc905c157eaa2\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to engage in the committee of the whole House on this important piece of legislation. Can I just foreshadow a couple of things. Obviously we are taking this debate clause by clause and to start with it is the title clause, but I understand that that actually allows broad and wide contributions from members and questions to the Minister around the purpose of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other matter I just want to note, of course, is that we aren\u2019t having the opportunity to take this through the select committee. So I know that a number of my colleagues have got some quite detailed questions that they do want to ask of the Minister and through the Minister his officials. So we are looking forward to being able to ask a number of questions and to be able to engage with the Minister around those answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI just want to touch on, I guess, that overall purpose of this bill that has come to the House. As has been traversed tonight during the first and second reading, there has been a discovery that perhaps ACC has been operating outside of its legislative scope. We\u2019ve seen in the regulatory impact statement some commentary that has been provided to the House and to the Minister about the two sections in the Act that interact with each other, and that ACC has been operating in good faith to use the words in the Act to charge a debit interest payment. What has happened is that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) has said, \u201CActually, we think there\u2019s some grey in that area. We think there\u2019s some grey. We don\u2019t quite agree with ACC\u2019s practice which has been occurring for 20 years but in good faith.\u201D Particularly, the Act talks about an administration payment and it talks about a payment to collect the levies. Where MBIE has that concern that they\u2019ve addressed is that that does not offer clarity about the specifics of a debit interest payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWe have heard tonight that the purpose of charging interest on payments for those who pay by instalment is to ensure that ACC is not out of pocket as a result, because businesses, including sole traders, pay for their levies usually all at once, up front. Under the operations that ACC have been running for the last 20 years, they have allowed people to pay in instalment, but in order to do that have added a debit interest payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EMy first question to the Minister that I\u2019d like him to give us some commentary on\u2014and this is one of a number of matters that we will be raising with the Minister tonight\u2014is actually about that advice that he\u2019s received from ACC. So what advice has he received and if he can elaborate a bit on that advice that he\u2019s received from ACC, specifically around those sections of the Act. I will just pull them out for him; I\u2019m sure he has them available, but I\u2019ll be helpful. We\u2019re talking specifically about section 234(2) of the Accident Compensation Act, which states that ACC \u201Cmay charge a reasonable fee to recover its costs of collecting any levy by instalments.\u201D So what is a reasonable fee? Does that reasonable fee include a debit interest payment? But then it goes further to state that regulations may prescribe \u201Cthe matters in respect of which fees or charges are payable under this Act, including any administration fee payable in respect of levies paid in instalments:\u201D, which is section 333(1)(b)(i).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIn the regulatory impact statement which, I must say, I do want to commend officials for what was a very well-worded in plain language\u2014which, of course, most people in the Chamber know is of importance to me\u2014regulatory impact statement that made the policy problem\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a62b184d03d6464b922ab86ee7a0f0ed\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re going to repeal that too\u2014don\u2019t worry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db81bb35f24e45df8ac2326b3baa2ebd\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sure, because you put it in the member\u2019s box. Yep, that\u2019s going to work! The question that we have is we\u2019ve got\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b56a4d36d702458e89057297be0512ed\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve just reminded me to get on with repealing it. I can\u2019t wait. Thanks for the reminder. I forgot about your stupid bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220faecfcd17684a7b98799f66be00f818\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh look, it\u2019s great. The interjections are really helpful. I might just need to\u2014Mr Chair, I\u2019m going to need to take another call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd49ae9d71e547c1bb5f5351998b1115\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bishop. When the Chair calls\u2014[Interruption] Stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022975213e83e7e4a7ea1c1fdb29d814cee\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241926abadb2c4302944ac6d02c6fb065\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: When the Chair calls, you will listen. I appreciate it\u2019s late at night and we\u2019re all a little excited, but we will still keep some order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cac068db5c4c47c497711e1b53efe546\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, I\u2019d just like to be able to finish my contribution, thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247c25f29c6304669b89e6a5d3f4055e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll give you 10 more seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b390387dc24229bf0a78f429aafe6f\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: My question was around the advice that the Minister has received about the interaction of those clauses and the advice that he\u2019s received from both ACC and from MBIE. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc6810d1b5ff4645b79cf487f396f34d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc6810d1b5ff4645b79cf487f396f34d\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, look, thank you very much, Mr Chair. As that member Rachel Boyack said, first clause title, and it is going a bit wider but I\u2019m happy to answer them because I know when we get to those specific clauses that\u2019ll help speed them up as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge what Rachel Boyack said about the work that the officials have done on this bill\u2014getting it in the shape and the advice that they have provided. And even one official who\u2019s not in the Chamber but she actually had tickets to the Hurricanes Highlanders game tonight, and unfortunately wasn\u2019t able to go because this bill is up at the moment. So just thank you to the officials who serve Parliament fantastically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ELook, there\u2019s obviously been the issue raised about uncertainty, but I suppose, as a Minister, I get a range of advice. And what I can assure the committee is, in fact, there is real certainty and agreement between ACC and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, who both agreed this legislative change in the House tonight to bring certainty to this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00222d78bc411e18438db2c04518dfc04c1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d78bc411e18438db2c04518dfc04c1a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thanks to the Minister for answering that. He didn\u2019t quite answer the question I\u2019d like an answer to. The regulatory impact statement (RIS), as with all the impact statements here over the past day\u2014it has been pretty clear that they\u2019ve been made under pressure and they haven\u2019t necessarily explored all options. I know someone else is going to talk a little bit about legal advice, but my question is: was the option explored of actually going and getting a determination through the courts of whether or not the authority existed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, David Seymour gets mentioned all the time because of his views about good lawmaking, and the first question is: is it needed? So the best way to test whether or not it\u2019s needed is actually to go to the courts and ask: is this within the law or not? Now, there\u2019s a declaratory judgments procedure that would do that quite well, quite effectively, and very inexpensively. Far fewer minds than are here tonight would have to do that work, and it would actually be a lot cheaper, quicker, and more effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other question I have\u2014and I really would like a clear answer\u2014is this: what\u2019s the number? On page 8 of the RIS, it\u2019s got an approximation of ACC\u2019s instalment plan use in\u00A02021, so let\u2019s guess that it\u2019s not a million miles away from that. The total revenue\u2014and it\u2019s made very clear that that revenue is the levies plus the 2.7-odd percent\u2014is $1.314 million. So the question, then, to backwards account, is: how much of the $1.3\u00A0million is the levies that we\u2019re here talking about? My rough calculation comes up with\u2014and it\u2019s not quite right, because I haven\u2019t done it perfectly, but it\u2019s $35,870. If we are here passing a bill on a Saturday night because ACC is not sure whether they can charge $35,870 or not, I think we\u2019ve got some problems about the use of Government resources. So can we be very clear that the annual amount of the interest charged that is in question here: is it roughly $35,000, or\u2014it is possible\u2014have I got my maths wrong on that, Minister Doocey?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002253fa59c826594035a19b4ce247944603\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253fa59c826594035a19b4ce247944603\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s first question, the advice I received was \u201CNo need to drag the ACC through courts for a technical change.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe second part of his question: the estimated amount of the interest debit from 2003-04 to 2022-23 is an estimated $218.6 million. It\u2019s just unclear because of IT changes, but it\u2019s around that amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002255557bd58cb44d358c2a7ba7e87de604\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255557bd58cb44d358c2a7ba7e87de604\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like to suggest to the Minister he considers, under the title clause, changing the name to \u201CAccident Compensation (Interest and Compounding Penalty Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill\u201D. The reason I raise that is because, as I alluded to in my second reading speech, there\u2019s quite a good explanation here about the interest that is going to be charged in the name of fairness, but when it comes to the penalty interest\u2014if I can just read from the regulatory impact statement: \u201CThose who don\u2019t meet the instalment are charged penalty interest at a rate of 1 percent per month\u201D, and it compounds monthly. The justification for that is the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation (Interest Rate for Late Payment of Levies) Regulations 2002, which sets the rate of interest charged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt looks to me, on the face of it, that there is a presumption under this architecture that by making this so-called administrative change that then the regulations kick in which can automatically prescribe a penalty amount. If that is the case, I think given that we don\u2019t have select committee it would be really clear to have that recorded because otherwise what we could be doing is overreaching by saying that it\u2019s OK to charge the interest but we haven\u2019t actually unpacked what the sovereign power is that is providing ACC the powers to charge penalty interest at that rate\u2014and I can see it\u2019s under the regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy second question, and I will keep my contributions short in the interest of trying to get through my 30 questions, which I won\u2019t do all at once because it would be incredibly boring hearing my voice over 30 questions, but I would like the opportunity to ask more questions at a later stage. My second question is just how was it that after 20 years of doing this practice that nobody ever thought about, suddenly this has become topical and top of mind? The reason that that is important from a policy perspective is for us to understand that the purpose of this bill is to actually create a fair instalment process rather than to collect revenue. It seems very odd to me that suddenly, out of the blue, when there is a small amount of revenue to be gained\u2014perhaps it was because the Government was looking under every rock and in every hidey-hole to try and find alternative sources of tax that they could, through levies and fees and so on, just to be able to try and met their $12 billion shortfall on the Budget. Or did somebody actually alert the Minister? Was it the legal team? Do they still have a legal team given the cuts to ACC? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI mean, these are real questions, because it\u2019s very weird that after 20 years suddenly this comes up and the justification for it is about a fair instalment process. So I\u2019ll sit down, and I do hope the Minister answers those questions and I have some more soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbf0e23a60c24cb4aa27a5d5aa43e396\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbf0e23a60c24cb4aa27a5d5aa43e396\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. In response to Ingrid Leary, her first question on whether I\u2019d considered that change to the title of the bill, the answer is no, and to the second question\u2014why is this bill being brought to the House now?\u2014because I said yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002268e5637a091c4036ba43101d31a0ce73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268e5637a091c4036ba43101d31a0ce73\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s been a very interesting exchange throughout the entire process of this bill. The first question I do have\u2014and I\u2019ll go into a little bit of context about some of why we\u2019re here and the decisions that I certainly made when I was the Minister for ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBut before I do that, I want to thank the advisers, because when ACC go through a process to look towards levies\u2014and it\u2019s not just this levy; it\u2019s the vast array of levies and interactions that ACC have with employers and our communities across the country\u2014it\u2019s quite a lengthy process. They come back to a Minister with a series of recommendations about levies and the processes by which they might change and considerations for Cabinet to, ultimately, decide upon. I can say\u2014and Mr Bishop and Mr Doocey are right\u2014that in my time, when presented with that, we decided not to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement also makes quite a poignant point on that particular matter because of a number of the changes and decisions that were made that impacted businesses after COVID-19, which brings me to my first question. I want to support\u2014only because I don\u2019t think I heard an answer from the Minister\u2014my Green colleague in his question about whether or not the Minister had considered his tabled amendment here. I didn\u2019t quite hear whether it was a definitive no, but I\u2019d welcome the Minister\u2019s clear response and then whichever way he might go on that, of course, we\u2019ll react accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThen the second question I have for the Minister is: as I\u2019ve just mentioned the context about how ACC considers its levies, was there any discussion by the Minister and Cabinet and this Government about whether or not consideration towards the levy rate that it\u2019s currently set at could be changed, given the fact that we are in a cost of living crisis? Businesses up and down the country are looking towards how we might cut more costs or how we might be able to save more dollars. I wondered, given this is a chance to change the levy\u2014and it doesn\u2019t come around all too often because of the process it goes through\u2014whether or not the Minister and indeed the Government had considered tinkering or changing the levy that\u2019s described here in the amendment bill. I think that\u2019s really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to make with respect to the title\u2014and I heard Mr Bishop talk about plain language. Well, plain language is important, because for many business owners out there, they\u2019re not going to sit down and read the entire ACC Act. Therefore, the title is important to make sure that you describe it for exactly what it is, and that\u2019s really important. At a quick glance they can go, \u201COK, there\u2019s a bit of retrospective activity happening here.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s already been well canvassed in the House that that is a particular issue, because any time you talk about retrospectivity in this House, regardless of whether or not you\u2019re going back on levies or it\u2019s legislation or whatever it might be, there are always serious questions that need to be asked for a clear justification and a clear rationale from the Government on why they\u2019ve gone and done this particular action. So those are the questions I have for the Minister in my first contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4f25c1d2b1843b69bb9f7c4a216b4cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4f25c1d2b1843b69bb9f7c4a216b4cd\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. In response to the Hon Peeni Henare: a bill that we are bringing to the House tonight that will validate past and current practice\u2014will I be responding to the amendment around a name change, or support it? The answer would be no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe rate of 2.73 percent, which the honourable member talked about, in a cost of living crisis: I think the reason that an employer or self-employed person would take an instalment plan of 10 months was, potentially, if they didn\u2019t have the funds to pay a lump sum. I would probably say if they were to go to their bank to get that money to pay it without the option of an instalment, they would be paying more than 2.73 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224c6a3b516b91444699f48dedb7a43e42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c6a3b516b91444699f48dedb7a43e42\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Leary, I note that you said you\u2019ve got quite a few questions. I encourage, since we seem to have a participating Minister, that this might be a good opportunity to do that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274e77227484b409486301c96398d0701\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: That sounds like a great idea, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c86fdf9f8b14f4bba8892ffd01b9446\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014interactively, in the way of the committee stage that I have been trying to encourage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022814ca1e4a11643dabe1f5dd05028e9a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022814ca1e4a11643dabe1f5dd05028e9a6\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I would hope that, in your calculations, the shorter that I speak, the longer the Minister might speak. That would be very helpful to the committee. So I do hope that he takes that on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf7b46ff4b64cc8b30448f69145998f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Chair will judge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216700efc76fa4b8091033077d1c35573\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: I will ask two really quick questions. One is just that I didn\u2019t really hear the Minister rule out the question from the Hon Peeni Henare about whether he\u2019s thinking of tinkering with the quantum of the levy. The next levy setting round is in 2024, and the regulatory impact statement (RIS) says that ACC wants to be able to charge appropriate fees. So my question is: if that\u2019s in his thinking, will he rule out changing the quantum of the levy in the 2024 financial year? That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy second question is that I note that previously in ACC there was a fee charge for a three- or six-month instalment plan. The RIS mentions that some years ago, due to staff turnover\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022077215b632d44f9488b6c8618d99aa7b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s this got to do with the title?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aceeca31c56a4b31861f60fc929d76a5\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, the member is asking what this has got to do with the title, and I\u2019d just like to help the member out and say that, because this is in urgency, my understanding of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bd2ff5972d04a739c31f98780a2d608\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Chair will look after that. We don\u2019t need to respond to ill-informed comments from the right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022455fc0e69e6b44119be3b3b6d1227a04\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: So, given that previously fees were charged, there doesn\u2019t seem to be any record of when that occurred or the justification for what happened. That would have been very helpful, actually, to set the precedent for this current move to create a fee. I\u2019m just curious to know how on earth a Government agency that has charged a levy, which is quite a specific thing, cannot have a sort of whakapapa or details of what happened previously to be able to recall. That\u2019s institutional knowledge, which is quite important and would have helped inform the policy. So maybe the officials can help the Minister with that second question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222da8bd2c62ae47a1a7e6ef94acb68046\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222da8bd2c62ae47a1a7e6ef94acb68046\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I go on, for the consternation of the members on my right, if I refer them to Speaker\u2019s ruling 127/1\u2014Dean. You\u2019ll understand why\u2014on a clause by clause, at the first clause we\u2019re allowing a broader discussion. It will narrow in subsequent clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022084846b3a5b94acba674a1cf7d6d3c47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022084846b3a5b94acba674a1cf7d6d3c47\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you to the Minister for engaging in this debate. But I did want to come back to my initial question, because the Minister\u2019s response to my question about the differing legal opinions between ACC and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) was that, actually, they were quite close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI wanted just to highlight what it actually says in the regulatory impact statement (RIS) on page 2. It says in the third to bottom paragraph on that page that \u201CMBIE\u2019s view is that the relevant sections of the Act do not provide for ACC to charge debit interest as part of an instalment plan fee.\u201D Then it goes on to say, \u201CACC does not necessarily agree with this view.\u201D So I think, given that this is grey and given that there is potential legal risk to the Crown, it would actually be really helpful, I think, to the committee to get on to the Hansard some more detail around the legal differences of opinion between ACC and MBIE, and some further detail from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t need to use my full five-minute contribution, but I do have more questions around the broad nature of the bill. The other matter I wanted just to touch on at this point for a response from the Minister was around how long ACC has started to actually differentiate in its invoices to businesses the amount that is the actual levy and the amount that is the debit interest. We can see here that ACC hasn\u2019t always separated those out. So one of the questions I\u2019ve got is are people who pay these levies in instalments actually aware that they\u2019re also paying a debit interest fee on top of it? Is it actually separated out on the invoice? How long has that been happening for? Because, obviously, there is concern from the Crown, and I understand one of the reasons that stakeholder engagement hasn\u2019t happened before this bill was drafted was because of the risk of legal action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I am very interested in hearing from the Minister just how much information is actually passed on to levy payers so that levy payers are actually aware how much is the actual levy, how much is an admin fee, and how much is the debit interest. So I\u2019d be very interested to hear about that level of detail from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00220c6fa0a192434bdba92314a3fb5b9dbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c6fa0a192434bdba92314a3fb5b9dbb\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In answer to that member\u2019s second question first, the employer or self-employed person would get a schedule setting out what is being paid, and then in the invoice, that would set out the interest and the levy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThen, in answer to the first question, I suppose some guidance on how we\u2019ve got here today for either retrospectivity or validation, the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee guidelines say that validation legislation can be used where a practice that is \u201Cgenerally understood and intended to be lawful, but that are, in fact, [could be] unlawful as a result of a technical error\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022722266227f4644f797f2868d146cbfdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022722266227f4644f797f2868d146cbfdf\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the Minister. This is my first opportunity to speak on this bill. Considering the title, the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill, I would like the Minister to consider either of the amendments, and I know he\u2019s already covered off those, but I would like the Minister\u2014yet again, this is a call to the Minister to rethink the value of considering the two distinct amendments which propose a more succinct or, at least, clarify the intent of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EBut my further question is really about the urgency of this bill, because the key element is the validation of changing interest, both future and past. And in the regulatory impact statement, there\u2019s no immediate impact on the status quo. So there\u2019s no increase or decrease to ACC revenue. Now, that seems pretty straightforward, and yet here we are on\u2014I don\u2019t even know which day it is. People are missing sports\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ea512ec5a8345b3b836dfc0b8fe6cf0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thursday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e67458f3b8749e7a429d7ffc675f5f3\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Thursday. See, it\u2019s Thursday; people are missing sports games; there are birthday parties held in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef651cfab25148f9a80cf652160041cc\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: The Hurricanes won, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228beb1d169e2a4392b7a43289cd131955\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Hurricanes won. Well, at least we know that. So there are things happening out of the bubble, but here we are in urgency, dealing with something that has no increase or decrease to ACC revenue. Under urgency\u2014under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EDon\u2019t get me wrong; I am a fan of ACC. Look at this. [Holds up hand] That bit of thumb that\u2019s missing\u2014it was an axe. And this finger\u2014I\u2019m sorry\u2014was crushed with a wood splitter. So ACC has been a real friend to me, but I\u2019m also concerned, because my wife is an artist, and she will be subject to this retrospective validation. I don\u2019t even understand how the hell she gets charged that much for being a painter. My son is a stilt walker and a busker and has to pay an ACC bill. I don\u2019t know how they\u2019ll be affected by this retrospective validation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EComing back to the title, it really helps, when we\u2019ve got such an inconsequential bill, that we are spending time on Thursday, under urgency, to deliberate on\u2014why on earth are we doing that if we\u2019re not going to give it the title that it deserves? So why can\u2019t we describe it in a way that tells us just what it does? Because we need people to understand how this is going to affect them. And if we\u2019re not going to give them any ability to consult\u2014because what we\u2019ve seen in the RIS, in the regulatory impact statement, is that there\u2019s been no meaningful consultation with the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee (LDAC). It says here that \u201CMBIE has engaged with LDAC, who were unable to provide formal advice due to the limited time constraints and LDAC\u2019s other commitments, but MBIE has analysed the proposals against [their] Guidelines.\u201D So we haven\u2019t even had that opportunity to have any real engagement with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo, coming back to my point, and I am aware, Minister, that we are needing to wrap this up at some point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fbcfea82b2944d3a5e6b95a3ca3da8e\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Please! Please!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227110c1dc98214f2db46bbf9066ae3013\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You can do it voluntarily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5ab49e24626477a9c5cb2ff9af1454f\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but I would like the Minister to come back to a title that is going to give us some substance, some meaning to what this bill actually does. Well, thank you, Minister. Could I have an answer, please, because I\u2019m sure I can think of another really good question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022884b1dde4aa3406cb2fb6c0fa4c533d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022884b1dde4aa3406cb2fb6c0fa4c533d5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call Ingrid Leary, because I believe Ingrid\u2019s got some questions and we want to get this question-answer process going, because there\u2019s a number of them, and I know that the member stated them quite well within a short period in the last half of her second reading speech. So, hopefully, they\u2019ll be succinct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022958a17c784d6447a94287cdf9270b3fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022958a17c784d6447a94287cdf9270b3fd\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, for acknowledging that. I\u2019ll get straight to the questions for the Minister. Two of them are about the evidence base, and one is just about some drafting, and we can look at it later if it\u2019s not the right time now. So the first one is that there seems to be an assumption that the more levy payers that take up the offer of doing instalments, the longer ACC\u2019s revenue would be delayed, and that would disadvantage other levy payers into the account. I just wondered what modelling the Minister had actually done on that; was that done based on actuals or was it based on just, sort of, theoretical?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe second one is another assumption that people would use this service rather than go to alternative forms of finance, because the 2.73 percent instalment plan fee was lower. What evidence did he have for that? Was, again, that an assumption based on an average credit cost, or were there actually actuals gathered on that to make that cost comparison?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy third and final question for this question is that, under the Act, ACC is not required to offer instalment plans. And I just wondered if the Minister had thought about whether\u2014while we\u2019re tidying up the Act, which is essentially what this is doing\u2014it would be prudent to change \u201Cmay\u201D to \u201Cmust\u201D, just from an equity perspective. It is a practice that ACC has been doing, so legislating to make sure that there is legislated equity rather than a kind of broad discretion from the Crown agency, in my view, might just help enshrine some equity and be something that we wouldn\u2019t have to come back to. Certainly, if it had been through a select committee stage, perhaps that\u2019s something somebody might have done an Amendment Paper on just to make it a bit more robust. So I\u2019m keen to hear from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5487b847327464fb20d03104cbdcf49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5487b847327464fb20d03104cbdcf49\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just responding to that last question from Ingrid Leary about whether we would be interested in changing the word from \u201Cmay\u201D to \u201Cmust\u201D. Because it\u2019s a tidy-up bill, I would probably refer her to the last Green member\u2019s contribution, which I think made it very clear that, in fact, this bill actually doesn\u2019t intend to change any practice. Actually, all it does is validate past and present practice, which, actually, was a good platform to support the bill, I would have thought. And the question that he also raised around the advice from LDAC, or the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee: the advice I\u2019ve received is that back in around April 2023, when the regulatory impact statement was actually written\u2014and that\u2019s how long this goes back\u2014the LDAC, at the time, felt they didn\u2019t have the time to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac7c1b9f52bd4bc9aaf7683d2b856589\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac7c1b9f52bd4bc9aaf7683d2b856589\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have been very enthusiastically seeking the call on the first clause of this bill, for the reason that I do have\u00A0some questions around the regulatory impact statement (RIS), and I believe clause\u00A01 is the appropriate time given that we\u2019re able to discuss in this clause the bill\u2019s wider policy\u00A0context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMy questions for the Minister really are around this question of legal advice. Essentially, as I can see it, this bill has arisen due to legal advice that\u2019s been received. Now that we\u2019re in urgency we are being asked to essentially agree to validate retrospectively, which is against the usual rules that we use to pass laws in this place. The Minister is shaking his head, but I believe that is correct: to, essentially, validate this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe question I have for the Minister is: on page 7 of the RIS, there is a part which has been redacted due to legal professional privilege. Now, the Minister owns that privilege as the client of this legal advice, and I want to know, given that we\u2019re in urgency and given that we are being asked to support this bill\u2014and the Labour Party has been quite up front with the fact that we do support the intent of this bill and from my perspective, the main reason I think we should support it is because the provision that ACC is giving people saves them money compared to their options with private providers and credit cards and that kind of thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022077677bbd4ba44cb9331b106072db136\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: The Government doesn\u2019t waive privilege. The member knows that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299209072ca3a4ed5b18a2518d06a35b5\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014well, I understand that Ministers are able to contribute to the debate, and the Minister on the other side has raised a question and he said that the Minister can\u2019t waive legal professional privilege. I want to challenge that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251c3198cc5094400b095ca2aa0379863\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member hasn\u2019t asked her question yet, so we\u2019re not sure what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e1bf472cc4f453fac5da82fb7c46f7a\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Will he waive the legal professional privilege so we can see the actual fulsome advice that we asked for, this being passed under urgency, so we can know that we are making the right decision in supporting this bill? That is my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second part to why I think that\u2019s important is that in paragraph 41 in the RIS there is a statement, an assertion, that this is an analogous situation to when something is corrected by law, and it should be able to be done retrospectively when there is a technical error. Now I want to challenge the Minister to show where there is a technical error. I would not myself characterise this as a technical error. I would characterise it as a situation where there should have been legal authority from the beginning and there wasn\u2019t. Is that a technical error? From my view, I would like the Minister to elucidate the committee as to why that is a technical error, because I think this is really important, and it\u2019s important that we take the advice on this RIS seriously. Many members of this committee have thanked the officials. I think they have done a really good job in putting this together, but I would like to see the full advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EA final question I would have is: we\u2019re in urgency, this issue had first been raised in\u00A02021\u2014I appreciate the Minister wasn\u2019t the Minister at that time; it\u2019s being going on since 2004\u2014so why now, under urgency, are we being asked to do this? Does the legal advice which has been redacted on page 7 hold the answer to why this particular action on this particular day is necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00224228c8345c75403eaf4d559560ae05c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224228c8345c75403eaf4d559560ae05c2\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. That was an interesting question about the title. But as the member will know, as a Minister, I received a range of advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebadf66adc004e41ac5fcb5300cc97b2\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b277b239fe8742cd9100e12b3916c1df\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I know what the point of order is going to be, and the previous presiding officer made it clear that as it\u2019s clause by clause, it\u2019s a bit broader. I\u2019m watching the other clauses because there will be less debate on those other clauses because, as was just said before, this is really around validating past practice. The Minister\u2019s already made it clear that he\u2019s not going to change some things in some of the answers that he\u2019s already given. So the point of order is accepted that we\u2019re broader than just the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cc843a500344dbdbef3f96f087b759d\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wonder if the Minister could acknowledge that, because we are trying to keep the rules of this debate; there is a justification for us having a wider debate on it in clause 1 and it would be helpful if our contributions weren\u2019t undermined by lack of reference to that point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a917f0c287504b48b5e14d02dad5fd4b\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in response to that, Madam Chair, if the member potentially was here to hear my opening comments when I acknowledged how it would be wider than that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022007f65b8b06e42f3b41ff2fdfdc23bb6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You shouldn\u2019t refer to the absence of a member, Mr Doocey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022940328542fe24121a47d0778ef9bb72a\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: In response to that question, I received much advice. I considered that to the extent that there was uncertainty it was important to put it beyond reasonable doubt, and levy payers are entitled to certainty of their obligations. Due to the uncertainty, ACC and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment both agreed legislative change was required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002258d81921cda343a7bd2911b801db1006\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258d81921cda343a7bd2911b801db1006\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I was watching the Minister\u2019s comments even though I was also watching the Hurricanes, who are now at the top of the table. I had a bit of d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu, actually, watching this game, because they beat the Highlanders when I was actually working at Michael Woodhouse\u2019s office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc7c5b3cb4fc4034bc18ea1ae3743d5f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I know it\u2019s 10.12 at night, but that is an indulgence. Please come back to the bill. Thank you. I come from Chiefs country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249917744041f478081111c6064e5bbc1\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, for indulging me for a moment for, again, the Hurricanes being the top of the table. Coming back to this particular bill, I actually want to speak in favour of the amendment put forward by Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan. I know the Minister has said that he wasn\u2019t going to support it, but I want to add another reason why I think he could possibly reconsider it for the Minister. That\u2019s because in the regulatory impact statement, it talks about the LDAC guidelines and why retrospective legislation would be allowed, which is clause 2, I understand, but this is talking to the title amendment by Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe LDAC, for members of the committee, is the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee or council. They are some of the most senior legal officials within our country, and when a bill is put to the House, except for in this particular case because it\u2019s urgency, the bill will get referred, after the first reading, to LDAC. LDAC will then provide advice to the select committee\u2014basically a legal review of the draft legislation to ensure that it meets particular criteria. They also provide opinion and advice to the select committee, which the select committee uses to test with officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIn this particular case, because we are going through under urgency, this bill was not able to go through the LDAC process, which is why there have been a number of contributions on\u00A0this side of the Chamber. But why I wanted to put my support behind Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendment is because his tabled amendment is inserting the words \u201Cretrospective validation\u201D after \u201Cinstalment plans\u201D, so it would read \u201CAccident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans and Retrospective Validation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ELDAC, in their guidelines, say that sometimes you\u2019re allowed to have retrospective legislation, which the member Camilla Belich has taken us through and which she does question around the technical error side. But putting that particular contribution aside, my question as to why I believe that Dr Xu-Nan\u2019s amendment should be put through is that when you actually look at clause 2, the legislation comes into effect from Royal assent, so therefore this bill looks forward, but yet it is also retrospectively applying for interest that\u2019s been accrued for those businesses on instalment plans. So the Royal assent basically says, \u201CYes, we validate that interest that has been accrued on instalment plans.\u201D But it\u2019s not retrospective application; it\u2019s retroactive\u2014it\u2019s looking forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why I would actually support Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendment because it makes a small change to the title so that therefore in the future when people are looking back, they can say, \u201CWell, this applied by Royal assent looking forward.\u201D There\u2019s no LDAC opinion on this because it went through urgency. The application date is from Royal assent. But yet if we could have that small change to the title, it therefore actually\u00A0provides retrospective validation. I think that\u2019s where Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan was looking when\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ae3b3a5758743ea902a96c35d159548\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a really serious thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273b67ea80fff41daa8e565cdd023e00d\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s quite a serious thing, the good doctor says, as to why we would allow that small change to a title which provides clarity to the public that, yes, this legislation is retrospective in application, even though it has Royal assent, which is in clause 2, which I\u2019m sure other members of the committee will work through carefully. But I think it would be one that I would like to know whether I could convince the Minister, and even if I didn\u2019t convince him, the Hurricanes are still the top of the table, so it\u2019s a great night for Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0a6f28568704757b0ddfe097d07972c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0a6f28568704757b0ddfe097d07972c\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just a response to that member, to acknowledge that the Hurricanes are at the top of the table, and it\u2019s just a bit unfortunate the Crusaders aren\u2019t or they would have knocked the Hurricanes off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022629aa9de12d749098f29c26400f55ec9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022629aa9de12d749098f29c26400f55ec9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E My question might appear a little bit technical, and I think it\u2019s an overarching question\u2014it\u2019s about the nature of the transaction that\u2019s going on. I understand the bill permits this contractual arrangement of interest payments to be entered into. I\u2019m aware that, back in 2003, the student loan scheme ran into this problem, and more recently local bodies ran into the problem, of charging interest in an entirely well-meaning manner, because they wanted to assist people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe local bodies have been charging interest for home heating renovations, often at low or no interest. But the fact of the matter is that if an entity, Crown entity or not, charges interest, we\u2019ve got a credit contract. Then, all of a sudden, you are a provider of credits. Local bodies stopped advancing money to homeowners because they realised they had to comply with the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act, the Financial Markets Conduct Act, and all of the secondary legislation around the provision of credit. If the Minister for ACC would like it, the relevant provision in the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act is section 15(1)(ca), which actually explicitly carves out student loans from that. In terms of local body advances for home improvements that are then repaid by an additional amount of rate\u2014although it\u2019s not actually a rate; they call it a rate but it\u2019s not, it\u2019s a loan repayment\u2014the exemption is found in secondary legislation under the Credit Contracts and Consumer Financing Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I put it to the Minister that ACC is in a bit of a conundrum here because either it\u2019s going to have to meet the obligations of a lender or it\u2019s going to have to work through this problem, perhaps by exemption or some other way. But if this bill comes into force without an exemption in place, it\u2019s solved one problem but created another. In fact, at the moment, it\u2019s got a problem because it has been charging interest\u2014it\u2019s been lending money on interest. This is why our power bills have a discount for early payment: because it\u2019s not strictly interest. They can\u2019t say, \u201CWe\u2019ll charge you 10 percent more if you\u2019re late\u201D, because that makes them a lender or an advancer of credit under section 9\u2014I think it is\u2014of the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act. So if ACC says \u201CYou owe us this money: $7,000. But you don\u2019t have to pay it on the due date, you can pay it in 10-months\u2019 time at 2.75 percent interest.\u201D, they are a provider of credit. That\u2019s actually a real problem, because we don\u2019t want to have our ACC officers, case managers, or whatever they are, subject to the Financial Markets Conduct Act and all of those other things. I hope they don\u2019t have to do the affordability testing and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, look, it\u2019s a real question, because local bodies got absolutely caught out by this. Now, it may be that your advisors have thought about that carefully, but this should not pass the House if it\u2019s going to stop one problem and create another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022b58a3ec0cec54c579d814448c976a37a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b58a3ec0cec54c579d814448c976a37a\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think the Hon Duncan Webb did raise some good points. I\u2019ve been advised by officials that in fact no credit is being offered. It is just delaying payments, and paying for that ability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002266e5088a68fc462d9109d216793effe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266e5088a68fc462d9109d216793effe3\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e218d69431584104a2a7a1b40d2c402f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e218d69431584104a2a7a1b40d2c402f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take one call from Rachel Boyack, but I think we\u2019ve really exhausted, actually, clauses 1, 2, and 3, and some of the questions are actually going further. So I\u2019m going to take one question on that, because we\u2019re just waiting on some advice about some amendments for clauses further down. But I think we are pretty much exhausting the first three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022a04a5f7caa764afb8e9858b88736ca95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a04a5f7caa764afb8e9858b88736ca95\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Could you, please, provide some clarification of what you meant by \u201CWe\u2019ve nearly exhausted debate on clauses 1, 2, and 3.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221c12e83e192149698e315381cddf2502\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c12e83e192149698e315381cddf2502\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re hearing the detail around validating the past practice, and questions around how we move forward based on that. The first three talk about title, commencement, and principal Act, so we have kind of defined what we\u2019re trying to do here, and the Minister has made it clear at this point that he wasn\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5390aaf541b4aff8e7451d7a0acaa4c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: The question, however, Madam Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff47325a1838405797be67ee2e8cdccb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we still have to put the questions. I accept that. But I\u2019m just saying we\u2019re actually hearing things that are related to levies being collected by instalments, which is down in clause 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022bba9573412d54131824290db3cfe1b9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bba9573412d54131824290db3cfe1b9f\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In Speaker\u2019s ruling 127/1, it outlines that in a clause by clause consideration, the debate on clause 1 will be a more fulsome debate around the bill. That then allows for contributions to be around the broader aspects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239311930b1f24b2d873be00cdb8c0d55\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282116f0b315d4367a121c7d0f8e86f01\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that. Given that that Speaker\u2019s ruling is quite clear on that matter, it comes as quite a surprise to get an indication from you that, in your view, we have covered clauses 2 and 3. So the reassurance that I think the committee needs at this point is that, whilst that might be your view in terms of the topics covered in this debate, when the question for clauses 2 and 3 is put, there will still be the opportunity to contribute to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e67a3db920514b6bbb6d33ca5cf06478\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e67a3db920514b6bbb6d33ca5cf06478\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00229bf8f0c2049f45adb4fc3bed1c1ee6b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bf8f0c2049f45adb4fc3bed1c1ee6b5\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to have a further call. I actually just want to pick up on some of the points that my colleague the Hon\u00A0Kieran McAnulty has made in his point of order. Because, as the spokesperson in this debate, I have been looking specifically at the broader issues here. I actually do have a number, quite a number, of specific questions, particularly about the commencement date. It\u2019s actually a very critical part of the bill and I even saw the Minister nodding. So I just want to foreshadow that I have deliberately left off questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bd7dfaea81e4dc38ac52992abe2c8dc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so perhaps we can have those questions now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022317c615d2424409e9dd94dbfa16c2fce\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Madam Chair, just with respect\u2014doing our best here to actually follow the Standing Orders, and as I understand it, when we get to particularly clause 2, I will have some very fulsome questions around the commencement date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I have questions now\u2014just foreshadowing that, just to be really clear, because obviously I understand it\u2019s helpful if members can provide advice to the committee that they have a number of questions so that the Chairs can actually allow people to make further contributions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAround the purpose, I have two further questions for the Minister. I do refer to the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee (LDAC) guidelines, but on a different matter, and this is around a strong understanding that when we\u2019re passing legislation, we should actually understand who may or may not be affected. That is actually part of the LDAC guidelines. So one of the things that we haven\u2019t yet engaged with the Minister about is a discussion about exactly how many people are affected. He does have his officials here, and I would very much hope that there would be some information provided\u00A0about how many businesses and sole traders operate instalment plans currently, and how many have over the last 20 years. Because actually it\u2019s an important matter for us to understand the extent of how far this bill goes in terms of those who are actually covered by it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe second question I have, which is specific and is around the purpose of the Act, is around the penalty interest. One of my questions is whether the Minister considered also including in the regulations\u2014and is going to consider\u2014details around the penalty interest, whether he considered looking at those penalty interest rates in the legislation that we\u2019re looking at tonight, and whether he would look at including them in the regulations in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00224adce6d7c6574dcd84cd9fdae0225029\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224adce6d7c6574dcd84cd9fdae0225029\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cb15b48369eb4e858eaa39e61d24edb5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022db512f1555d14a729c72de07f51011fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db512f1555d14a729c72de07f51011fa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 to insert \u201Cand retrospective validation\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022022e0c75f47f4fe3a41353fadcd2c6ad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e51fce4022048d7b535d5ed370847bd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022644a9f517d4e48e994c869d1b743052c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022644a9f517d4e48e994c869d1b743052c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 2\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfa6b3e912574e1ea3b3b64745199cb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfa6b3e912574e1ea3b3b64745199cb6\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chair. Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just wanting to seek your guidance. You accepted a closure motion, which I don\u2019t have any comment or challenge on, but just prior to that, you did indicate from the Chair that there was advice that was still being sought. Now, the committee is at a point in time where it has now voted on clause 1 but some of that advice was not given to the committee. So I\u2019m just wanting your clarity around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221f1b4fef0dc7421ea88c34a5dfd18370\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f1b4fef0dc7421ea88c34a5dfd18370\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to clarify for the member, the advice that we\u2019re getting around amendment papers is actually further down in the order. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022396ce5bc1c3f4cbdb3db07f1a028c514\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022df96ba96e8b6465a9055d48931cee268\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df96ba96e8b6465a9055d48931cee268\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 2, and this is the debate on the commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022a36b0ccf07cd4bad957bf761813a6f4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a36b0ccf07cd4bad957bf761813a6f4a\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I just want to respond to Rachel Boyack who asked the question about numbers impacted. I\u2019ve been advised we don\u2019t have specific numbers impacted, but half of the money paid into the work account gets paid by instalments. Just be mindful that\u2019s not only the 10-month instalment where a debit interest charge is applied; that will also be the three- and six-month instalments. And I\u2019d also like to say that when we think about people impacted, charging debit interest ensures that offering instalment plans does not disadvantage levy payers who are actually paying in a lump sum on the due date. And that\u2019s why I believe this to be prudent and reasonable practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002280853d48daea4be2aeccb449ddc0784a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280853d48daea4be2aeccb449ddc0784a\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to\u2014I\u2019m just looking at that clock that\u2019s got me at four minutes and hoping it will give me my full allocation, because I do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecfdfb5130a442d9b79c28fc53f190a8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll change that, but keep it specific to clause 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293c64ad258dc4d018f3c29e4e3a1a8f4\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll be very specific to the commencement. The reason I\u2019ve raised this is that one of the reasons we are undertaking the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill under urgency is the need for us to reduce the risk to the Crown. That has been laid out very, very clearly in the regulatory impact statement (RIS). One of my concerns that I do want to put in front of the committee tonight is that given we have a public holiday in two days, we may well have some time between the passing of the legislation, depending on whether it does or doesn\u2019t pass tonight\u2014noting that it might and it might not; that depends on how the debate rolls through for the rest of the night. And quite a concern that I do have is that if there is a time delay in terms of both the passing of the legislation and also the Royal assent, that is going to start to present risk to the Crown around people potentially taking legal action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo just to look at that, it clearly states that in the RIS\u2014that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2019s (MBIE) recommended approach could attract public scrutiny. This could lower public confidence in ACC\u2014which we have touched on; I know that\u2014but specifically it says MBIE considers this approach is justified because it ensures that ACC\u2019s past and current practice is validated to remove any legal risks. And, obviously, we have a commencement date that comes in the day after Royal assent. The reason I\u2019m raising this particular concern in the committee tonight is because the commencement date is the closest clause that I can find in the bill where it\u2019s appropriate to raise this matter. The reason I\u2019m raising it is: are we going to be in a situation, having introduced this under urgency with a public holiday\u2014which is going to give people time to produce a legal challenge? There may well be people who have actually operated for 10 or 20 years under this, who can then see, actually, we\u2019ve been paying debit interest for a long time and we\u2019re going to make a claim against ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a real concern, and it\u2019s why it\u2019s been brought into urgency. I can see that the Minister is seeking some advice from his officials, and I\u2019m really pleased that he is, because I think the committee needs to fully understand this particular matter. Part of that could be: what is the best date for this to actually pass? The closest that we can get to the Royal assent may well reduce that risk somewhat, and so it could be that it\u2019s better for us to, say, pass this legislation on Monday in order to reduce that risk, because the next day, I would hope\u2014and I understand that it\u2019s really for the Clerk\u2019s Office to determine how quickly Royal assent can be arranged with the Governor-General and that the House doesn\u2019t actually have control over that. But I\u2019m sure the Minister can appreciate why I\u2019ve asked this specific question around the commencement and just particularly that we\u2019ve had to undertake this in urgency in order to, essentially, not engage with stakeholders and actually keep stakeholders in the dark around what\u2019s happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI can see the Minister has, hopefully, received some advice, so I\u2019ll be very interested in receiving that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002270aabdbfaa5946c7ba2bf8a025a90f51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270aabdbfaa5946c7ba2bf8a025a90f51\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll allow another question on commencement just while the Minister is clarifying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00220ee7adc00c954cc3bb229d05242c3a6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ee7adc00c954cc3bb229d05242c3a6a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s just a supplementary, really, because when I was looking through the regulatory impact statement (RIS)\u2014and I did mention it in a previous contribution\u2014in terms of the date of wanting to get the alignment of the levies, I believe there was a date of July 2024. It\u2019s a bit rushed for me to go through it now, because we are in urgency, but there was a specific date mentioned. So the risk question aside, which is separate, I\u2019d like to ask the Minister: perhaps that\u2019s the tidiest date to peg this to, rather than just having Royal assent, which leaves us hanging, and is the Royal assent date because this is a piece of work that has taken some time to shepherd through? Is that why it hasn\u2019t been tidied up to actually have a more specific date to peg it on? Because I do share the concerns of my colleague Rachel Boyack, not so much around the risk but just the need to have a specific date that ensures that we get this passed and that it meets the purpose that is stated via the RIS, which talks about cleaning up as the sort of architecture of the levy is being aligned for rationalisation. That date was mentioned, so perhaps he could consider that date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022842c730bb3a4407b96890210e5b96184\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022842c730bb3a4407b96890210e5b96184\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I too have two questions around the commencement date. Again, I understand the idea that with Royal assent, we\u2019re looking at immediacy of the enactment of this particular bill. But one of the things the Minister mentioned before was something that I wasn\u2019t aware of, and it kind of really piqued my interest, and that is the date that the regulatory impact statement was produced, which was 12 April 2023. So that\u2019s over 12 months ago. I understand that last year, as we were kind of going through campaigns and all of that\u2014you know, there is a reason. But I\u2019m curious to know\u2014the first question to the Minister, on the date, is: why wasn\u2019t it introduced earlier?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f10e842953c4b1ab81c497ec7c6fa48\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think it\u2019s fair to ask questions through the Chair of the Minister about a date that happened before he was the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e3c6f9d94854cca81663997a6df8d1d\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: But, I mean, I\u2019m curious to know when he became the Minister and was aware of this issue. I mean, OK, I understand\u2014I will leave it to the Minister at his discretion on how he would like to respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second question I have is around the process that we are undertaking right now, and my colleague Scott Willis before mentioned, in terms of the fact that when we are looking at the impact statement, we are looking at the fact that ACC said that, as a result of the change, the validation of this process that ACC has already undertaken, it maintains the status quo\u2014so no real gain or loss in terms of the revenue to ACC. So I am also curious to get some clarification from the Minister: if there are no fiscal or revenue implications to this, what was the reason why this needs to be done under urgency, as part of the Budget urgency, since there is no financial and revenue implications?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019m genuinely interested in hearing what the Minister has to say, because, for me and many of our colleagues, this is our first term as MPs; this is our first Budget. I myself have only been an MP for 11 weeks. So this is something I\u2019m still kind of getting the hang of, in terms of what sort of legislation is being put through under urgency, what the implication of the commence date is, and various commencement dates we have seen across the board, what will be the difference here between Royal assent and having it as 1 July, as with many of the other bills we have seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo the first question to the Minister\u2014if you wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying at your discretion, since you became a Minister and it was alluded to this report\u2014is: what is the reason it wasn\u2019t brought in earlier, which then echoes what our colleague Rachel mentioned in terms of, again\u2014the same concern as our Labour colleagues\u2014the legal implications of it. And the second question is around the relevance it has under Budget urgency\u2014if you wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying those?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef5f4303c27f454aacc958fdda7e6f77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef5f4303c27f454aacc958fdda7e6f77\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I just thought I\u2019d wrap up those last three contributors. I think there was a question raised around the date of 1 July. Obviously, that\u2019s the next financial year, and that is in there because that\u2019s the next round of invoices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI think the issue around assent reinforces why the bill needs to be passed as soon as possible to minimise risk. I\u2019ve been advised the Royal assent can occur urgently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe question around how the bill is here today: I suppose the officials raised it with me and I decided it was the right course of action. That needed to go through the legislative programme for this Government, which is clearly a busy Government and has a busy legislative agenda. This is why we\u2019re here tonight under urgency, ensuring that we pass this bill, where there has been for some time a level of uncertainty. And tonight we are clarifying that certainty, and that\u2019s been requested by both the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment and ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00228b2651ed260c44968d58d5582e8d1201\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b2651ed260c44968d58d5582e8d1201\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dc07e833abb945ca87102bbc9e57f8ff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002267e835a6a3574fc3aff4f01d08e668fc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d336b41f38046baa3c9ffddf8485fe6\u0022\u003EClause 3  Principal Act \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddb36d662b2f4eadb89afc719585f69d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddb36d662b2f4eadb89afc719585f69d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 3. This is the debate on the principal Act. It\u2019s a very narrow clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4f80308398e46f4b1cff792ffecf974\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4f80308398e46f4b1cff792ffecf974\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. Thank you very much. Could you, please, inform the committee which of the brief number of contributions in the previous clause were repetitive and irrelevant. Whilst I do not intend to challenge the ruling, it did come as some surprise. We do want to contribute alongside\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a01ed6e49e674ef5a8105c03bd5894be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a01ed6e49e674ef5a8105c03bd5894be\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: There were not irrelevant calls. It was that the Minister had answered a very important question about why this needed to be done urgently and clarified those questions. I don\u2019t believe anything that was asked was irrelevant but the Minister did answer them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022ada51cdfc7eb4345a22d323007291725\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ada51cdfc7eb4345a22d323007291725\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E On that basis then, it surely would be in order to meet the criteria or qualify for a closure that contributions were no longer meeting what is required. If it was simply a case that in your view you felt the Minister had answered the questions, then it is impossible for both the Chair or the committee to determine whether those that were seeking the call would not be able to introduce new material, which up to this point has been the requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227068a897d32d48749d2e286cfc3376a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227068a897d32d48749d2e286cfc3376a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it was based on my judgment of the urgency around the question that particularly Ms Boyack was asking. And it was my judgment that that had been satisfied. It was urgent and the Minister took a lot of advice and answered the question. So we\u2019ll move on to clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002261c6e97a8a694410ad4f615ffae0139a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261c6e97a8a694410ad4f615ffae0139a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order\u2014thank you, Madam Chair; thank you for elucidating on that\u2014I guess the struggle that some members on this side of the House might then have is that there were members who were seeking the call, but without being granted the ability to take the call, the committee was then not in a position to adjudicate as to whether what that member was going to say would be considered repetitive or anything else. So I guess we\u2019re trying to seek some guidance\u2014yes, yes, we understand the House is in urgency, but at the same time it\u2019s very difficult to understand what calls might be repetitive or not if they haven\u2019t been given an opportunity to seek that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227a4b0f897ceb4693bbdf32e3152dd49b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a4b0f897ceb4693bbdf32e3152dd49b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. So I made a decision, and under Standing Order 137(3) \u201CThe Speaker may accept a closure motion if, in the Speaker\u2019s opinion, it is reasonable to do so.\u201D I\u2019ve made that decision that it was reasonable under the circumstances of what was being asked, so the question is that clause 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022464b94bc2788434c8b8a1c1c6b384e88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022464b94bc2788434c8b8a1c1c6b384e88\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have a few questions in relation to clause 3 of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill, which relates to the principal Act. As you will see, clause 3, \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D states: \u201CThis Act amends the Accident Compensation Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI have looked at the purpose of the Accident Compensation Act, just in preparation for this contribution, and I have a question for the Minister as to whether this particular bill\u2014although I appreciate it deals with matters to do with the Accident Compensation Corporation and their ability to charge interest on instalment plans. I can\u2019t see, when I look at the principal Act, which is what we\u2019re discussing, that this particular activity is envisaged by that Act. So what I wanted to know from the Minister is: did he receive advice about possibly having the same needed\u2014I think, on the Labour Party, at least, we agree that this does need to be done, but whether he received advice on doing that by some other mechanism, perhaps under a different Act, which does deal with interest payments, which does deal with loans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EFor the Minister\u2019s benefit, the aspect of the accident compensation scheme that I was looking at in terms of the primary piece of legislation, which is the 2001 piece of legislation; it looks primarily at injury prevention and rehabilitation of injured workers and entitlements following injuries. I know this is related\u2014and I\u2019m not saying that it isn\u2019t proximate\u2014but what I want to know is: in the design of this legislation, in amending this principal Act, were other mechanisms looked at? I also wanted to ask the Minister whether, in fact, he looked at perhaps doing this another way through perhaps regulation instead of amending the principal Act\u2014[Interruption] It\u2019s my question. That\u2019s my question, and it\u2019s relevant to the clause that we\u2019re discussing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d quite like to know, firstly: is it the Minister\u2019s advice that it fits neatly within this Act? Was he looking at, perhaps, other ways to implement apart from an amendment to the principal piece of legislation? If he could just explain it. I mean, I think one of the problems that we\u2019re having today is that perhaps it wasn\u2019t envisaged that the Accident Compensation Corporation would actually be doing these loans and therefore need to charge this interest. So my question really is: are we fitting the correct puzzle piece back into the correct puzzle with amending this primary piece of legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbbbe43a173941068a73c74382b7fd65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbbbe43a173941068a73c74382b7fd65\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d remind the member that under section 266 of the Accident Compensation Act, the purpose of ACC is actually to collect levies. I\u2019m also mindful that by people not paying a lump sum, then ACC is actually forgoing interest that it would have earned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002210102bb864fc46999963ce633ba27ee4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210102bb864fc46999963ce633ba27ee4\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister in the chair, Matt Doocey, about the way that this bill relates to the principal Act, and he has just very helpfully explained the purpose of that Act, which is to collect levies. If I look at this Act, it is about doing that in a way that\u2019s fair, and we\u2019ve heard that\u00A0in the regulatory impact statement (RIS). When I look at the RIS\u2014the very helpful RIS that we have acknowledged officials for\u2014in section 2 it talks about the criteria that would be used to compare options, and it states fairness, transparency, legal risk, and alignment. In fact, further in the RIS there is a table that goes through each of those quite carefully, and it even calculates pecuniary benefit as well as non-pecuniary, so that is incredibly helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut I do have a question from a policy perspective, because a lot of this debate and a lot of the new Act is being predicated on fairness\u2014that\u2019s the nexus with the Act that it is amending; both Acts are about fairness. We have had legislation in this House that has really shone a light on fairness, because different people have different criteria for fairness. That was the tax principles Act, that mentioned vertical equity, horizontal equities\u2014so,\u00A0vertical is the same classes of people being treated the same; horizontal is across everybody, that if you look across, there is fairness. There\u2019s also certainty\u2014so, how certain is the fairness or the action that is to be taken? How predictable is it? There\u2019s fairness around compliance in administration, and some questions have come up to do with\u2014for example, the really good question from Rachel Boyack about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213c7c045bdfa4a55bbf3c4ef49c06172\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The questions around fairness seem to be more general than how does\u2014can you relate that to the principal Act, because that\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to have questions on here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4967bbf5cf64705ae50556fb81e1e0f\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that guidance, Madam Chair. The nexus, as I had mentioned, in my view, is that both of these Acts are about fairly collecting levies. This Act purports to change the earlier Act, which the Minister helpfully said is about collecting levies, and the purpose of that Act is to do it in a fair way, and so is this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI did point out that I would have a number of questions, and I didn\u2019t get to the policy question around fairness and the basis on which these decisions are being made. I think it is really timely to do it, because otherwise I\u2019d have to do it in the next section\u2014just really picking out whether fairness is an appropriate and well enough understood basis from which to make this kind of table and schedule. Perhaps had he thought about crossing it out and\u00A0just looking at transparency, the legal risk, which has clearly come through the debate, and also the alignment, because it\u2019s unhelpful, I would contend, for us to have passed legislation that has laid out very clearly six principles of fairness, under the taxation principles Act\u2014that has now been repealed, but there was a common understanding of what that involved. Now we have fairness, which is explained in a different way and there are assumptions around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis is an important question, because both of these Acts, the thing that links them together is the fact that they are trying to collect levies in a fair way, and so it is really appropriate for the Minister to be able to explain to us: on what basis, what policy basis, were those evaluations made? I can understand, on the table, transparency, legal risk, and alignment; they\u2019re very clearly set out. I\u2019d just like to know whether fairness is the right\u00A0criteria. Did he turn his mind to whether that was appropriate, and what other ways could it be looked at to make sure that the same principle of fairness applied both to the principal Act and to this amendment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00221d4fdaf991844d4ea081c909f88e4efe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d4fdaf991844d4ea081c909f88e4efe\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. As that last member alluded to, the Accident Compensation Corporation is built on the principle of fairness, and also raised awareness of the principle that debit interest, which we\u2019re talking about tonight, also disincentivises instalment options that could be used as a cheaper source of finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7d859e6ffc74642bd97a92d7ad1a0c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7d859e6ffc74642bd97a92d7ad1a0c9\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I do just have a quick question relating to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a849bfea4f0740b9bac3b5a7c71a17e4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Quick question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dceb26364c4402d85ed272d3e5b5289\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014clause 3. And it will be a quick question. I just note, of course, that we are in urgency, so the need to actually interrogate and ask questions is of vital importance so that we can actually have a strong\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b820011df544e01a29862cb4ee68702\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s true\u2014so ask the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b54340f2c3e48ff8b43efd840f8c2b5\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014understanding of the bill. I\u2019m getting there. I want to come back to some questions I asked earlier, actually, because they do relate to the fact that clause 3 talks about amending the principal Act. I come back to the fact that we\u2019ve got these two sections sitting inside the Accident Compensation Act 2001: one is section 234, around ACC \u201Cmay charge a reasonable fee to recover its costs of collecting any levy by instalments.\u201D; and the second section that is relevant is that the empowering provision provides that regulations may prescribe, and then I quote, \u201Cthe matters in respect of which fees or charges \u2026 payable under this Act, including any administration fee payable in respect of levies paid in instalments:\u201D, which is section 333(1)(b)(i).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbc13a9fe2e4431c818456ec8db7b4cb\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa24f40b73b24337b523f1e625cc85da\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Just to members opposite, sometimes you need to preface a question. But my question to the Minister for ACC is: did he consider whether amending the Act was the best process by which to go about making these changes? Colleagues have asked about regulations, and we had questions on this earlier but I\u2019m bringing them back into the debate because we didn\u2019t get a satisfactory answer\u2014did he consider testing this in the court? We have noted previously, and we still haven\u2019t received that information about the legal advice that is redacted within the regulatory impact statement. We are in urgency, we don\u2019t have an opportunity to solicit a departmental report or to receive advice\u00A0in private from officials in a select committee process, so I\u2019m asking the Minister again, just having gone through the sections of the Act that are to be amended, whether there was any other option that he considered, either through secondary legislation or whether he did look at getting a decision from a court, and what was the advice that he received on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002285a8cbc071304def8899c995c42434f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285a8cbc071304def8899c995c42434f7\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E In response to the several times I\u2019ve been asked those questions about options and the court, my answer stays the same. When I\u2019ve been asked previously, I\u2019ve said that I believe there was no need to drag ACC through courts for technical change. Around the options I considered: to the extent that there was an uncertainty, it was important to put it beyond reasonable doubt, and levy payers are entitled to certainty of their obligations. Due to the uncertainty, ACC and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment both agreed legislative change was required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u00228362b78f181645888961f3867cc0ed99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228362b78f181645888961f3867cc0ed99\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fb4f32421e5b4521b548a0aa4d1758a3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on the question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224c8086745f6948c2b31ffba91d97cdcb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022263dada6b95948d0b3f7e265e918a8a0\u0022\u003EClause 4  Section 234 amended (Levies may be collected by instalments) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225533b755e3024c2798fb2e02e06e75c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225533b755e3024c2798fb2e02e06e75c7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to clause 4, the debate on the amendment to section 234\u2014basically that levies may be collected by instalments. The question is that clause 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4cf0e22bc5b4fabae26e69dbf7b4572\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4cf0e22bc5b4fabae26e69dbf7b4572\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much. I just want to ask the Minister about section (1B), in particular, which seems to be really broadly worded. First it says, \u201CThe Corporation must consult levy payers on the proposed rate of interest\u201D, which seems fair, but then it goes on to say, \u201Cor the proposed method by which the rate is to be calculated\u201D. They are two quite different scenarios, and I\u2019m just wondering about what informed the looseness of that provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe know that laws around levy making need to be very tight and predictable and clear, and yet we have two very different methodologies by which the corporation can consult. I would wager that the one way of consulting with the actual numeric value would be a\u00A0much fairer way to consult than to simply propose a methodology. So if there is to be a methodology, which is much more difficult, I would wager, for levy payers to understand, what is the reason behind that? There may be a good reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe second part of that is that then the corporation can recommend to the Minister that\u00A0regulations be made prescribing both of those things again\u2014either a rate or a methodology. But what\u2019s missing from this is that it doesn\u2019t link the consultation with the recommendation to the Minister. Now, I know that I\u2019ve sat on select committees where officials have tried to say, \u201COh, but it\u2019s good practice and that\u2019s what happens.\u201D But, actually, we know that if it\u2019s not prescribed in law, it is the letter of the law, and so there seems to be a disconnect in section (1B) between the consultation and the Minister having to take that into account in some shape or form. Otherwise, there could be a scenario where consultation is done on a methodology, a recommendation is made, and then the Minister goes and does something completely different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EAs I say, that may not be so important in other legislation, but when it relates to a fee, a levy, or a tax, it\u2019s incredibly important that we\u2019re clear and precise. So I would like to hear the Minister\u2019s answer on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022724ee07ad69841b1989e29ae9842daf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022724ee07ad69841b1989e29ae9842daf2\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E The reference to the words \u201Cproposed method\u201D is because there will be a public consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1ce11fcc18548bca3f6821387a31e8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1ce11fcc18548bca3f6821387a31e8f\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Thank you, Mr Chair. In light of the answer given by the Minister about public consultation, I\u2019m curious as to whether or not the Minister has any view as to the uptake of this particular bill once it\u2019s passed, whether or not it\u2019s been based on data, and whether or not it will be actively promoted or discussed openly when the public consultation happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really curious, because the data is really important as we look towards what ACC needs to do and how they will interact with the businesses the data was collected about. We know the data of how many clients there are, how many businesses there are. But I\u2019m curious, Mr Chair, through you, whether or not the Minister can describe the expectation, or if he has any expectations, of the uptake of this particular bill once it\u2019s passed and, once again, whether or not it will be actively promoted with respect to making sure that those who are struggling out there or those who look towards ways to make their payments through instalments will be actively engaged as the consultation goes out, or if it\u2019ll just be a broad-sweep consultation process, which generally tends to skim over the top and doesn\u2019t actually get to many of the people that it probably should get to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMany of the people who are busy running businesses don\u2019t get the opportunity to get out there to be able to engage through this consultation. So if, through you, Mr Chair, I can ask the Minister to consult with the advisors there to make sure that we know, as we all return to our homes and we go out and we talk about what we did here through urgency, whether or not they can wait to expect active engagement and promotion from ACC or whether or not they have to go looking for it. Those are my questions to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4654343580041bd966418d3fe4cc096\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4654343580041bd966418d3fe4cc096\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. And just to acknowledge the Hon Peeni Henare with his contribution, I agree with him that the engagement needs to be active\u2014just to acknowledge the work, when that member was the Minister, around looking at it through an access lens as well, and I think it\u2019s important\u2014clearly, organisations and entities can be awash with data; there\u2019s no shortage of it\u2014to ensure that we engage in good faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022947ca24df3774e3491075ab62a22ffec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022947ca24df3774e3491075ab62a22ffec\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you for an opportunity to take a call. My question draws a little bit further on the question around the public consultation. Just looking at clause 4, where we amend section 234, inserting subsection (1B), \u201CThe Corporation must consult levy payers on the proposed rate of interest payable on a levy collected by instalments\u201D, and it goes on further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI\u2019m quite interested in the Minister\u2019s comments earlier around public consultation, and I\u2019ll get to that in a minute. My question is: what is going to be the methodology for this consultation? Who, out of all levy payers? What I\u2019m quite interested to know from the Minister\u2014because, obviously, there are thousands of levy payers; we all pay levies\u2014is: does this particular clause refer also to employees who pay levies. Even though they\u2019re not necessarily affected, the broad reading of this clause could suggest that they actually do need to be consulted, because it says \u201Cmust consult levy payers\u201D. So my question is: is it specific just to employers who pay levies? Again, this is the type of question that would have come up in a select committee process, so it will be very useful to get advice from officials through to the Minister. How will the ACC actually determine who needs to be consulted\u2014who is affected? My blunt reading of this would say the corporation must consult levy payers. It doesn\u2019t actually go on to state which levy payers. So my reading of it would be all levy payers, and that would be employers and those who pay levies as employees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s quite an important question. It would be useful to get on the Hansard, because, obviously, if this did come to a court process whereby people said, \u201CI\u2019ve been required to pay a levy. I haven\u2019t been consulted because I wasn\u2019t considered to be needed to be consulted.\u201D, I think if there has been a response from the Minister in the record of our debate tonight, that would be really, really useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI just then bring in that second piece about public consultation that the Minister noted. I would have thought that, actually, reaching out directly to levy payers\u2014we should know who they are\u2014would be a more useful way of engaging so that we can engage more directly with levy payers as opposed to a kind of broad-brush public consultation that may\u00A0or may not miss people. Obviously, we are talking about the way this gets operationalised, but it is important because if we are going to operate under a process of consultation so that people are comfortable with the payments that are being made in terms of interest, then I do hope that the Minister is seeking some advice from officials, because I think it\u2019s a really critical question to ask. So I\u2019m looking forward to getting the Minister\u2019s response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00220f426358d8c147e1a0d382ffe510b3a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f426358d8c147e1a0d382ffe510b3a4\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. For clause 4, which is on Section 234 amended (Levies may be collected by instalments), I want to first ask a point of clarification from the Minister around the subclause (1A), and then I have two further questions for subclause (1B).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think the first question for subclause (1A) is something that may have been teased out before\u2014I wasn\u2019t sure if it\u2019s been teased out before\u2014which is around corporations \u201Cmay\u201D, and this was something the Minister spoke to just before as well\u2014in terms of the use of the word \u201Cmay\u201D, in the sense that it doesn\u2019t change what currently is happening. But I\u2019m curious to get clarification from the Minister as to whether it is also appropriate to change it to \u201Cmust\u201D, because the fact that it\u2014for the last 20 years, ACC, Accident Compensation Corporation, the corporation itself, has been charging this additional levy as part of instalments, and it\u2019s a practice that ACC, from the regulatory impact report, seems unlikely that\u2019s going to change. So although, on one hand, I appreciate the flexibility of using the word \u201Cmay\u201D, I am interested to hear from the Minister as to whether \u201Cmust\u201D is something that he has considered when it came to the drafting of the bill. So that\u2019s my question for subclause (1A).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFor subclause (1B), the first question is: \u201CThe corporation must consult levy payers on the proposed rate of interest\u201D, and not to anticipate the kind of discussions that we might have later on when it comes to clause 6 on Schedule 1AA amended. This is really interesting to me because I would like to kind of get a clarification and sense from the Minister in terms of his interpretation of the phrase \u201Cproposed rate of interest\u201D. Because in clause 6, and particularly when we\u2019re looking at New Part 5, it lays out three different percentages and in three different month instalments: three, six, and 10 months, currently. I want to know from the Minister, when we\u2019re looking at subclause (1B), whether the proposed rate of interest applies to the rate only, or it also applies to the type, as in, will it give the flexibility to ACC when they are consulting levy payers to look at more broadly\u00A0not just the percentage of each of those but also the duration? Potentially they may want to introduce something else like, you know, a 12-month plan, a 24-month plan, or a 5-month plan. So that\u2019s the second question I have for subclause (1B).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe third question I have is around this, that in subclause (1B) it says: \u201Cthe rate is to be calculated before recommending to the Minister that regulations be made\u201D. I would like to get, again from the Minister, and this is in lieu of any sort of conversation and dialogue we are able to have in a normal legislative process in terms of being part of the select committee or having a more robust discussion, what would be the time frame we are looking at when we are looking at the process of consultation and then going on to the recommendation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo those are my three questions. The first question is: has the Minister considered the use of \u201Cmust\u201D instead of \u201Cmay\u201D under subclause (1A); or is flexibility something the Minister is interested in, or how to take priority in? And the second question is around subclause (1B), which is whether we\u2019re looking at the proposed rate of interest, both in terms of the rate and type. And also the third question with subclause (1B) is: what is the intended duration between the consultation and the recommendation? So if the Minister is able to sort of shed some light on those three questions, that will be really appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022aedd0f569f824f1e9e3ded4b6edfed89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aedd0f569f824f1e9e3ded4b6edfed89\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E The answer to one of those questions around the time frame of consultation would be four weeks. The other question about the proposed rates, I suppose, is an important part of why we do go out and consult, and there was a question earlier about public consultation versus consultation of people who pay levies, and both would occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227257bd35e40f4904ac23abf70604ad16\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ingrid Leary. We are on a very narrow clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022577e9cd595c346a9a5e6c884f0d38ec6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022577e9cd595c346a9a5e6c884f0d38ec6\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Yep, and in the spirit of the back and forth\u2014having heard the Minister\u2019s answer to my question about consultation, which was really useful\u2014I just want to clarify, if I\u2019ve heard correctly, what he said and then also propose a drafting change, if I may, sir, because we don\u2019t have the opportunity to do that in select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo am I right\u2014through you, Mr Chair, to the Minister\u2014that the consultation will be both on the methodology and the quantum of the levy? If that is the case, then may I suggest that the drafting should say, instead of \u201Clevy collected by instalments or the proposed method\u201D, there should be \u201Cand\u201D rather than \u201Cor\u201D in that first reference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThen, equally, in the second half of section (1B), prescribing the rate of interest, once again strike out \u201Cor\u201D and input \u201Cand\u201D so that it\u2019s unequivocal\u2014people won\u2019t have to go to the Hansard to hear the Minister\u2019s statement on that. But I just want to check with the Minister, if I\u2019ve heard that correctly, that there will be consultation on both of those elements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3492a5f718a4c028b548392668d74f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3492a5f718a4c028b548392668d74f6\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I\u2019m coming back just on a question that I asked the Minister earlier because it was actually a very specific question that I haven\u2019t yet had an answer to. It was in relation to\u2014and I will keep it quick in the interests of trying to get an answer, but I just note that the Minister is getting some advice from officials so he may wish to just ask officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAs well, I ask specifically about which levy payers. Because my pure reading of the new clause which is being inserted after section 234(1) inserting (1B), \u201CThe Corporation must consult levy payers\u201D. My specific question was: is this all levy payers? Levies that are paid by employers and employees. It was a very specific question, and I think it would be useful for that to be recorded in terms of the response from the Hansard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00222a297083613a45cf95b4c96698b4f7c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a297083613a45cf95b4c96698b4f7c0\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Mr Chair. There was a question around the word \u201Cor\u201D. I\u2019ve been advised by the advisers: that is so the ability to put the formula in for the levy rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022050ad19027394c1e8b9bd010f6a205b9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d8ab371f91f4734b3755016a4dcff72\u0022\u003EClause 5  Section 329 amended (Regulations relating to levies) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b49fd7ffbdc04df9994510bd5945290a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b49fd7ffbdc04df9994510bd5945290a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to clause 5. This is the debate on the amendments to section 329\u2014regulations relating to levies. The question is that clause 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002296859490e76149d9936c5fc042de42a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296859490e76149d9936c5fc042de42a3\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got a lot of questions around clause 5 because, actually, in my view this is the most detailed and substantive part of the bill. So the main question, I think, that we just want to get some really strong answers around is why the Minister has chosen to exercise regulations instead of putting the interest payments plan into the primary legislation. I think it\u2019d be fair to say\u00A0that there are always concerns when secondary legislation is used in this manner. That\u2019s\u00A0what the Minister is looking to do, and, just, reading through the regulatory impact\u00A0statement here, to make changes in the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation (Interest Rate for Late Payment of Levies) Regulations 2002 as a transitional arrangement. So making a direct change to the regulations to have a sunset clause to then go through that fee-setting process and then include the levies\u2014what they are\u2014as part of the standard consultation due in 2024. So, obviously, there\u2019s a process that\u2019s going to go through here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI guess the concern I just wish to put on record is because we\u2019re not going through that select committee process, usually a select committee would receive a report from the Regulations Review Committee on any secondary legislation that\u2019s introduced. I just can see Mr Penk there\u2014very fond of the Regulations Review Committee\u2014and Mr Meager; \u201CMr Eager Meager\u201D is also quite\u2014Ha, ha! Is also\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b4d27b4ff544452a519709880e62a67\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a tribute to the food at Copperfield\u2019s that there\u2019s this much energy still going at this time of night. Carry on, Rachel Boyack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022751596dcbea245bdb7424a1addc6e0d6\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: I come back to the role of the Regulations Review Committee, and just note that, I guess, this would be where we would put some concern on record that we are going to be moving to a long-term provision of what is, essentially, a permanent interest payment that can be added to a levy through regulation. And given the sensitivity around this and the opportunity for the House to actually set these levies, whether the Minister actually took some advice around putting the payments into the primary legislation. I think it\u2019s an important question that we get an answer to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other matter\u2014and, look, I do note that our colleague from the Green Party raised this under clause 4, but it actually does come under clause 5, where we amend section 329\u2014the regulations relating to levies. In amended subsection (2A), \u201CThe Minister may not recommend the making of regulations under subsection (1)(hb)(i) unless the Minister has first received and considered a recommendation from the Corporation made in accordance with section 234(1B).\u201D My question to the Minister on this is: in what form will that recommendation take? What will the process be for him to both receive and consider that recommendation? Because, again, when we are setting payments that New Zealanders are making if they are undertaking an instalment plan, there is, I think, a fair understanding, particularly when we\u2019re talking about, often, small businesses who do come under cash-flow pressures\u2014I think it\u2019s fair for them to have an understanding of why we\u2019re using regulation to set these payment terms. And then, also, what will the process be for the Minister to receive those recommendations? Because I think people need to have that trust and confidence in the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EJust lastly, before I finish my contribution, and I\u2019ll probably come back to make a further one shortly with some more questions, I do just want to acknowledge the Amendment Paper that has been tabled by my colleague Ingrid Leary, and I\u2019m sure she will be seeking a call on that very shortly to add a new clause 5A. There\u2019s been quite a conversation tonight about the provision of instalment payments, which I think the House, for the most part, is in support of. And I think Ingrid Leary has made a very sensible suggestion here around making sure that ACC must provide instalment plans and, actually, it\u2019s probably a fair thing to include in the Act. So I know that my colleague will be seeking a call shortly on that particular matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00225544f316101149cf88f39f4b4952b348\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225544f316101149cf88f39f4b4952b348\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Rachel Boyack, for those questions. The question around why regulations: because they provide flexibility and are in line with the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee guidelines. Of course, she highlighted a very important area around the pressures on business and cash flow. I suppose that is why the regulations will provide those instalment opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u002217d2429f3dd84a82ba08dcb3972147d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217d2429f3dd84a82ba08dcb3972147d0\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you for allowing me to take my first call on this bill. I just have a very quick question around clause 5(1)(hb)(ii), and then I\u2019d like to ask for some clarifications around the regulatory impact statement (RIS), which I would have been able to do if this were a normal select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ESo my quick question around clause 5(1)(hb)(ii) is: can I invite the Minister to elaborate on what are \u201Cthe circumstances in which the payment of the whole or any part of the interest may be remitted or waived?\u201D Because it would be very good, you know, to have it in the Hansard, just to know what those circumstances might be for anyone that this legislation might apply to and sort of what the criteria might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThe clarification that I\u2019m seeking for the RIS is, I guess, on page 8. It kind of says\u2014well, it literally says that there\u2019s about 32,000 people that are in that kind of 10-month period in 2021. There is a breakdown which seems to apply across all the categories. So my question is: is there a more granular breakdown of that 10-month category across the 32,000 people around, like, what the exact figure amounts are and what component of that is the interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EI just want to raise a little concern that I had when reading the RIS. Page 3 of it says that \u201CAdministrative limitations, particularly a series of IT changes since 2004, mean that ACC does not have clear and accessible information regarding the debit interest component of the instalment plan fees it charges.\u201D So does that mean that that 32,000 figure is unreliable or\u2014I mean, I could just be totally misunderstanding this. What is the kind of accuracy of that actual figure? So thank you for allowing me the opportunity to ask these questions and take this call, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00222a8505b9ab0b45798395f1c30ac3b0b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a8505b9ab0b45798395f1c30ac3b0b6\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just while I\u2019m seeking advice on that last question from the advisers, that member raised his first question around potentially what might trigger a waiver, and that would be around hardship and an application of hardship to ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002272d6cbf193594947964afa635f84a982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272d6cbf193594947964afa635f84a982\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do have three questions for the Minister. The first one I won\u2019t labour because it picks up a little bit from the previous section, but I do want to have on the Hansard my concern that the same language is used, which is in new section 329(1)(hb), inserted by clause 5. It uses the word \u201Cor\u201D instead of \u201Cand\u201D. So the particular words here are: \u201Cthe rate of interest payable on any levy collected by instalments under section 234 or the method by which the rate is to be calculated\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, that does follow logically, given that the Minister has declined the invitation to change the wording in the previous section, but what it does do is reinforce my concern that this is quite loose for the consultation that needs to happen for something like a levy, where it would be preferable, I think, to make it an \u201Cand\u201D so that it\u2019s both a quantum and a methodology that is consulted on. So I\u2019d just like that on the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe second point is under subsection (2)\u2014and it picks up on the previous speaker\u2019s question but asks a new question. It was really helpful, actually, to hear the Minister mention hardship. My question was whether it was even appropriate to have the word \u201Ccircumstances\u201D, which is quite a broad test. I\u2019m assuming from the wording that it\u2019s an objective test. That\u2019s another question for the Minister: is it an objective test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt just says here that it\u2019s sitting in the regulations, and yet the Minister himself has brought up the word \u201Chardship\u201D. Now, those types of equity provisions, in my view, should be in the primary legislation, because that has a very purposeful intention, which is to make sure that it is fair and equitable. If it\u2019s left to regulation, it is not this House enshrining the equity that the Minister is anticipating. It is being left a little bit to chance, and so I think in the hierarchy of legislation, an equitable consideration like that belongs better in the primary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s difficult to know, especially with the wording, \u201Cthe circumstances\u201D. That\u2019s quite broad wording, and so it doesn\u2019t really give any guidance to the wording that should be used in the regulation. That\u2019s where my concern is. So I\u2019d really like the Minister to consider whether perhaps we should redraft that or whether we could have the words \u201Chardship\u201D somehow put in there or if we could clarify. If we can\u2019t, then hearing him say it in the Hansard is at least one step closer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy final question to the Minister is about the proposed amendment, and Rachel Boyack has said what it is, so I\u2019m not going to repeat that. I\u2019d just like to have on the record again that when it comes to equity, there is nothing like having it in primary legislation. We\u2019ve heard that there is a practice of ACC to make these instalment arrangements available. It\u2019s very much at their whim. They are the Goliath here and they\u2019ve done that in good faith and that\u2019s great. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere could be natural justice considerations for somebody who was declined an instalment situation to be able to say, \u201CWell, this is a practice.\u201D, and, therefore, probably judicially review that, but it would be much cleaner and clearer to have a section in that actually says, \u201CACC is to provide instalment payments.\u201D It just makes it clean and clear. It puts the obligation on ACC. It confirms what has already been happening for 20 years, and because we have a retrospectivity in this legislation, it kind of gives it a nice continuity, but it cleans it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s happened, I think, with this practice is that the word \u201Cmay\u201D has enabled ACC to create a practice that is not really pinned anywhere in law. We\u2019re trying to clean that\u00A0up,\u00A0but we\u2019re not really providing certainty about who will be able to have the instalments, just like we\u2019re not having certainty about who will be able to claim hardship. So I\u2019d really like the Minister to consider my tabled amendment and respond to my three questions, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00221f1527b05d2448408e4c52e580058511\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f1527b05d2448408e4c52e580058511\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Off the back of the Minister\u2019s response to my earlier question, I did have a further question alongside some other questions that I still had around the introduction of levies through regulation. The Minister mentioned that the reason for using regulation instead of primary legislation was flexibility. If I\u2019m honest, the use of that word did cause me some concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EJust noting, of course, that those who use these payment plans\u2014and you know, I think there\u2019s some agreement between myself and the Minister that these are people who potentially can be in quite vulnerable situations, and acknowledging that for small businesses at the moment, being able to pay things in instalments is really important, which is one of the reasons why the word \u201Cflexibility\u201D did give me some concern. I\u2019m interested in whether the Minister would consider adding a clause into the bill to define what that flexibility meant and how that would operate in practice. Because, of course, my concern would be that, given we have regulations in place, we don\u2019t have the same level of scrutiny on those regulations that we do through the House. So it could give rise to regulations being amended quite frequently\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ef23d8baba4dd3b66e39fa0e3abed1\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. It\u2019s not certain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d988704e304fb7ba0dfae9df953463\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly\u2014just responding to Ingrid Leary: that need for certainty for small businesses is quite important, especially in current time frames.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also concerned because the other matter that\u2019s clear in the bill is that the rate of 2.73 percent will only apply to those who are on a 10-month plan, but there will be no payment interest charge added to those on a three-month and six-month plan. I guess my question to the Minister on this is whether that would be something that he would look to entrench in the law, in the primary legislation\u2014that you could actually only apply the 3.73 percent, or whatever that rate was, to the 10-month plan, so that there would actually be a permanent approach to keeping those shorter payment plans with no debit interest charge. I think, given that that is something we\u2019re agreeing in the law tonight for a temporary basis, could we actually make that particular part permanent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other matter I just wanted to note around that 2.73 percent is\u2014you know, we\u2019ve had a lot of discussion in the first and second readings about the fact that, if people are exercising the use of the plan, they get access to that 2.73 percent, which we would all agree, at current rates, is lower than standard interest rates that are offered through, say, a bank or another financing organisation\u2014whether we would also write into the legislation. I know we are getting to the point where we probably need to write some amendments, but it\u2019s late\u2014but whether the Minister would consider putting some guidelines into the legislation around having an actual assurance that that 2.73 percent will be lower than what is offered by a bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EObviously, at the moment, we have high interest rates\u2014we know that\u2014but at some point, they\u2019ll drop back down. They will drop back down at some point. If we see banks offering 1 percent or 2 percent, or whatever that may be, in the interest of ACC being able to continue offering these plans in a way that is actually useful\u2014because I think for small businesses having to go back out to the bank and say, \u201CThis year we\u2019ll go to the bank; next year we\u2019ll do it through ACC.\u201D Actually, wouldn\u2019t we want to have the ability for those regulations to be based around the official cash rate or what banks are doing, in order to make sure that levy payers are getting the best deal? So I\u2019ve got quite a few questions there for the Minister. I think this is actually the substantive part of the bill, and I\u2019m hoping he might be able to answer some questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00228367eb95fda34584a0d524aa2c95fee1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228367eb95fda34584a0d524aa2c95fee1\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I thought Rachel Boyack raised a good point about the interest charge for three-month and six-month instalments. That will be looked at in the next levy round.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc086890063e4fc19ef669ab5d77c19e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc086890063e4fc19ef669ab5d77c19e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So when we\u2019re looking at clause 5, I have a question around inserted subsection 329(2A), \u201CThe Minister may not recommend the making of regulations\u201D\u2014I will touch on some of those regulations in clause 6. Now, one of the things in terms of the context that we\u2019ve been discussing between clause 4 and clause 5 is that clause 4 is coming from the perspective of the corporations, but, as opposed to the regulations, clause 5 is coming from the perspective of the Minister for ACC. I think that distinction is really important. If the Minister could answer my previous question around the use of the word \u201Cmay\u201D in clause 4, inserting subsections 234(1A) and 234(1B) into the principal legislation. The question I have, and the clarification that I would like from the Minister, is around the use of the word \u201Cmay\u201D in subsection 329(2A) inserted by clause 5(2), and particularly the term \u201Cmay not\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m not an expert when it comes to the drafting of legislation and the use of the positive and the use of the negative in terms of the grammatical form. But in clause 4 inserting subsection 234(1A)\u2014where we are looking at \u201Cmay\u201D instead of \u201Cmust\u201D\u2014we are offering flexibility to the corporation, that, if they don\u2019t want to, they don\u2019t need to charge the levy on the interest payment. But what I want to know\u2014and the clarification and the guarantee that I need from the Minister\u2014is that for inserted subsection 234(2A), the \u201Cmay\u201D will not be interpreted in the same way where the Minister then may make regulations without the consultation process of the corporation, or without factoring in the consultation of ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis is really crucial. The Minister mentioned before that the duration\u2014when I was asking the question of subsection 234(1B), the Minister has answered that there is a four-week consultation period that we\u2019re looking at when they are consulting levy payers on the proposed rate. So we are looking at people, businesses, who are going to be consulted and who will be going out of their way to respond to the consultation of the corporation. Then, the corporation package it up, deliver it to the Minister, but it says in subsection 329(2A), inserted by clause 5, that \u201CThe Minister may not recommend the making of regulations\u201D. Again, I would like to note that the negation negates the fact that before making changes to subsection 329(1)(hb)(i) the Minister still has to take into the consideration the recommendation made by the corporation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo that guarantee\u2014from the Minister\u2014that the Minister will seriously consider and take on board the recommendation of the corporation is absolutely vital to the entirety of this clause. So if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind shedding light or providing some sort of confidence or some sort of reassurance that there is going to be no point at which he will make alternative recommendations or alternative decisions against the consulted recommendations of the corporation\u2014after all of the things that they are doing with the levy payers and all of that\u2014that that\u2019s not going to happen. So if the Minister could answer that question on the words \u201Cmay\u201D and \u201Cmay not\u201D, and whether negation plays a part in this, I would be really, really grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022f50da1ff04a64bc6bf4322c8f85f97aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f50da1ff04a64bc6bf4322c8f85f97aa\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and I thank the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan for his contribution. Just to assure him that the word \u201Cmay\u201D is drafting consistency throughout the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00221c523221331c49818f477afe12fc543c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c523221331c49818f477afe12fc543c\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s great to finally get to be able to take a call. I\u2019m very enthusiastic about scrutinising this legislation in the time we have available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe question I have for the Minister is really in relation to the existing powers which are referred to in clause 5. So I\u2019ve gone back to the primary piece of legislation, and I\u2019ve had a look at the existing fee and collection powers that can be made by people already under the existing ACC legislation. It does come back to something that I didn\u2019t get an answer to before, which was the nature of the legal advice. I felt that, when I read through that, there was already an ability to collect a fee in the legislation, and there\u2019s quite a lot of detailed sections there about how exactly that can be done within the existing law. So I wanted to know from the Minister: did he consider maybe changing the interest on instalment plans into some sort of fee when payments were made late? Because that already exists within the legislation. You wouldn\u2019t need to use urgency. We wouldn\u2019t need to waste Parliament\u2019s time. It might be that that answer is in the legal advice that I did ask for the Minister to provide to the House. It\u2019s not too late, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022459e2eec27de4878ac8eadf2f7a7970b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He didn\u2019t say no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022853124ace919494c95f90722e5befa5a\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: He didn\u2019t actually answer specifically about legal advice. I would like to put that question to him again. It seems to me there is a power for ACC to charge a fee. Why not let them do that, and if you\u2019ve had advice to suggest that that\u2019s not the correct way to do it, can we please see that advice, because I think that would be quite important to check?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn terms of the details on the other sections of this, I think people have asked can we have more details on what exactly would be likely to be remitted or waived in this particular section. I think that is really important to know because the other thing I saw when I looked at the sections which are in the section we\u2019re debating\u2014which I know is limited, but it is in clause 5\u2014is that there is an existing requirement for payments to be made within the month that they are due. My question is: if there\u2019s an existing duty for payments to be made in the month that they are due within the existing legislation, has the Minister received any advice essentially implying that their inability to make these instalment plans might undermine the collection of the amounts that are payable? There is a clear duty currently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWhat you\u2019re suggesting here, as we all know, is, essentially, making something which\u00A0may or may not be currently legal legitimate under this piece of legislation that does have\u00A0retrospective effect. I do have a question about that\u2014just to let the Chair know\u2014specifically about retrospectivity in the next section. So I\u2019ll leave that to that because I think it\u2019s more appropriate for there. But I do want to know from the Minister if he has\u00A0received advice on that point. Is this in any way undermining the general payable within the month that the payment is due section, which exists within the current ACC\u00A0legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022de2b4e009eee4deb88429b3f0ff8b6cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de2b4e009eee4deb88429b3f0ff8b6cc\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae118bf11556427c8860192a215576ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae118bf11556427c8860192a215576ea\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you. I just note I thought those were some excellent questions from my colleague Camilla Belich, and I\u2019m looking forward to the Minister giving a response. We\u2019re also still, I believe, waiting for a response from the Minister on whether he will support my colleague Ingrid Leary\u2019s excellent Amendment Paper, which is to add a new clause 5A, which is \u201CACC to provide instalment payment\u2014ACC must provide instalment payments to levy payers on request.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut my specific question to the Minister\u2014before I do that, though, I did have some questions earlier about the flexibility and whether there\u2019d need to be a definition in the Act and a new clause inserted around that flexibility and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c507f98c5a64c96bfb98a08738013de\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Repetition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d878e3384331451896e9edb61fdff736\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the reason we\u2019re raising this is we haven\u2019t had an answer. And so I\u2019m just reminding the committee that under urgency, we do need those answers, because we don\u2019t have the opportunity to scrutinise through a select committee. But where I just wanted to make another question to the Minister is, if you look at section 329 being amended and inserting after section 329(2B), it does state here\u2014and I\u2019ve raised this concern earlier, but I just wanted to bring it into the legislation\u2014that regulations made under subsection (1)(hb)(i) may prescribe different rates of interest. And that is actually of concern, because we do have a practice here where the three-month has a zero percent rate, the six-month has a zero percent rate, and the 10-month has a 3.73 percent rate of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo we do want to actually have some certainty that there isn\u2019t that intent to start adding interest to those lower rates, because, actually, I think that\u2019s a matter that levy payers would want to actually be able to submit to the whole House on for a select committee process. But, further, what interested me were the different methods by which rates are to be calculated. So I\u2019m quite interested to know what those different methods could be, because obviously we have a specific rate being put into the legislation tonight that is coming off the back of a retrospective application. But I\u2019m very interested to know if the Minister\u2019s received specific advice and what that advice is around the different methods that could be used to determine how to calculate those rights. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00222de19dc3a2334c7f9b62f314b7ed6700\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222de19dc3a2334c7f9b62f314b7ed6700\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E In response to Rachel Boyack\u2019s question around the three and six months, I just assure her that this bill is about validating past and current practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00229692e095224445c0b8fcd8d43d7fa77a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229692e095224445c0b8fcd8d43d7fa77a\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a6d22f21a0e64675a5cc47ee400ac2a5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002284d7db78034b4cdf902e901ae790943d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3609a3f76b04f4b9b53863f6122be37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3609a3f76b04f4b9b53863f6122be37\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ingrid Leary\u2019s tabled amendment inserting clause 5A is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed6264ad8238474f888762df3f5932b8\u0022\u003EClause 6  Schedule 1AA amended \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022890aab8f0c2a4a84b712600cdad029d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022890aab8f0c2a4a84b712600cdad029d5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate. Clause 6\u2014this is the debate on the amendment to Schedule 1AA of the principal Act and the Schedule. The question is that clause 6 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002242b72c556dcd424ea891bd1d9a35b5e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242b72c556dcd424ea891bd1d9a35b5e0\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This will actually be a short call because I can see that a number of members behind me would also like to ask the Minister a question, and it\u2019s in relation to\u2014[Interruption] Would you like to take a call after me? So I\u2019ll continue\u2014thank you for the interjection. So it\u2019s actually in relation to the disclosure statement on page 8, and 4.3 refers to clause 3 of the new Part 5 will retrospectively allow ACC to charge debit interest on instalments. So it\u2019s talking to the ability to look back and make sure that the interest that has been accrued on those instalments can actually apply, which is the purpose of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBut the difficulty I have is that in new Part 5 inserted into Schedule 1AA, there is no clause 3; it just has the new Part 5, section 16, section 17, section 18. I\u2019m guessing there is a minor drafting issue where it should have said clause 3, which is actually a reference to new section under Part 5 inserted in Schedule 1AA, a new section 18 subsection 3. And I think that is possibly just a drafting error, perhaps in the disclosure statement, and so there is nothing here saying that there is clause 3. Have you actually looked at the bill yourself, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll read it for you again. So clause 6 Schedule 1AA amended, which is the subheading for the heading of that clause, in Schedule 1AA \u201C(a) insert the Part set out in the Schedule of this Act as the last Part\u201D and (b)\u2014which is line 26 of this bill\u2014\u201C(b) make all necessary consequential amendments.\u201D So, therefore, you look to the Schedule New Part 5 inserted into Schedule 1AA and then it just goes through Part 5: new section 16, new section 17, new section 18, but the disclosure statement of the bill says, \u201CClause 3 of the new Part 5 will retrospectively allow ACC to charge debit interest\u201D. And I think that is right because that is the empowering provision in Part 5, new section 18, subsection 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo I just want to ask the Minister: I believe the disclosure statement is wrong. It should have said new section 18, subsection 3 of new inserted Part 5. So to the Minister, if he can just answer that basic question: is it the disclosure statement that is wrong or is it the\u00A0bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00225a86bf91033842b0a8797d12746b23d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a86bf91033842b0a8797d12746b23d2\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I can confirm that is a drafting error in that statement. It should have been 18, but I suppose the problem we have is so many of these papers were written in a year ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00225eb1025c11a241b89b12e4e29fb7358b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225eb1025c11a241b89b12e4e29fb7358b\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is an opportunity to come back to some of the questions I asked about clause 5, which, actually, are part of clause 6. [Interruption] I\u2019m very happy to yield if someone would like to take a substantial call\u2014we had a discussion on this the other day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208ee30eace574863aa996ab9d043608b\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just seeking clarification. The member quite clearly alluded to the fact that she was speaking to a previous clause. Would you be able to provide the member some direction about which clause we\u2019re debating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022346b851f2df8473bb76ec5ae01558511\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just let things settle, and I\u2019m sure the experienced member will know to come very quickly back to clause 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a6d3916867243cc8a169de54d39cdbc\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m coming straight back to clause 6, which inserts new Part 5 into Schedule 1AA. It relates to the questions I asked on clause 5. Funnily enough\u2014and something Mr Court might not be aware of\u2014clauses in legislation often interact with each other \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe specific question I had was around the levies that will be set on three-month and six-month instalment periods. If you read Part 5, in the Schedule, specifically clause 17, \u201CRates of interest payable on levies collected by instalments:\u201D, it specifically states, \u201CUntil regulations made under section 329(1)(hb) come into force, the following interest rates apply for the purposes of section 234(1A) (as inserted by the 2024 Act): (a) 0% on the total amount of levy collected over a 3-month instalment period: (b) 0% on the total amount of levy collected over a 6-month instalment period: (c) 2.73 percent on the total amount of levy collected over a 10-month instalment period.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister before, which I didn\u2019t receive an answer to\u2014but I think it\u2019s an important question because he talks about flexibility. We do have this certainty for people on those shorter payment plans that they won\u2019t have a zero percent payment added, but what is clear here in this reading is that that\u2019s until regulations are made, but once regulations are made, these rates could change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s a fair question to the Minister, and it actually looks like we may need to\u00A0reconvene this committee of the whole House, and so at that point I\u2019m quite keen to potentially look at putting some further amendments forward so that we could permanently ensure that people on a three-month instalment period could retain that zero percent interest debit charge. So that is my question to the Minister. [Interruption] Well, if others want to take a call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229974afee636f4f6392b29c142d55bedb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229974afee636f4f6392b29c142d55bedb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I will put you all out of your misery. The time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022132fa4c888744ea7931a8bf4c8d3baa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022132fa4c888744ea7931a8bf4c8d3baa3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002210d95bcd50b6400584c567a0599760cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210d95bcd50b6400584c567a0599760cc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for further committee consideration next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until Tuesday, 25 June, 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240530c2ef3d53955c464891c1ade015d63091001499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 11.55 p.m. (Saturday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"