"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224bb2c49e4dc242dd9ea1341144d4ec83\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 JUNE 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb7e90b4263f400dbac4e6cddda60693\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 JUNE 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022827a4f217ad4433295b6f76e1b6bc7d2\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dfecc11b47324ed980ce8911ef7f35e4\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224ca0fa9b00c6406daace71b125c7e476\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ca0fa9b00c6406daace71b125c7e476\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223165f72522a340bba6f591e7ef77452b\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e77b92a0e2a646dabe665021e66b5dae\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a835d2877d754b00b3ca40530754eb63\u0022\u003EKeith Locke MNZM\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022948f2daf152e4425a5ae1b372a227b39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022948f2daf152e4425a5ae1b372a227b39\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I regret to inform the House of the death on 2 June 2024 of Barbara Stewart, who served as a list member from 2002 to 2008 and from 2011 to 2017. During her membership of this House, she was a member of the Social Services Committee, the Health Committee, and the Business Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMembers, I also regret to inform the House of the death on 21 June 2024 of Keith Locke MNZM, who served as a list member from 1999 until 2011. During his membership of this House, he was a member of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and the Law and Order Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI desire, on behalf of this House, to express our sense of loss and sympathy with the relatives of the late former members. I now ask members to stand with me to observe a period of silence as a mark of respect to their memories.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMembers stood as a mark of respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022201f6073a4404357b841d1871b1a44a5\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022344e672704b14d8ab302b382d20f9117\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220ef67213af534783a4e4a74cfaa55310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ef67213af534783a4e4a74cfaa55310\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea979aad50a24afab0b150f1a52dafb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea979aad50a24afab0b150f1a52dafb6\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Alex Johnston requesting that the House accelerate the phase-out of free industrial allocations in the emissions trading scheme to end free credits by 2030\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Catrina McGregor requesting that the House initiate a full investigation into the promotion, funding, distribution, and prescription of all Essure devices for New Zealand women\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Mark Potter requesting that the House inquire into the pace and content of changes proposed for the early childhood education sector\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Tanya Dunstan requesting that the House pass legislation to require a public hearing into judicial conduct when eight or more members of the public make a complaint about the conduct of a judge\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick requesting that the House urge the Government not to reverse the ban on oil and gas exploration and note that 36,062 people have signed a similar online petition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022acdd1592a44d4dc296472bc7b76d39cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acdd1592a44d4dc296472bc7b76d39cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00226600032b71f7480f983b5959901661ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226600032b71f7480f983b5959901661ef\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Productivity Commission annual report for 2023-24\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Symphony Orchestra Ltd annual report for 2022-23\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ELotto New Zealand statement of intent for 2025 to 2029; statement of performance expectations for the year ending 30 June 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EOrillion statement of corporate intent 2025 to 2027\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETreasury strategic intentions for 2024 to 2028\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinistry of Business, Innovation and Employment strategic intentions for 2023 to 2028\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment responses to the petitions of Brian Webb and petition of Focus on Iran\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESecond Protocol to amend the agreement establishing the ASEAN-Australia-New Zealand Free Trade Area together with the national interest analysis\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Eexchange of letters reaffirming an agreement between the Government of New Zealand and the Government of Australia on the application of the agreement establishing the ASEAN-Australia-New Zealand Free Trade Area\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Efour agreements on the Indo-Pacific economic framework for prosperity together with the national interest analysis\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Electoral Commission on the 2023 general election enrolment and voting statistics from the general election held on 14 October 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002222b7a85058cc49dda2b38895fcd945fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222b7a85058cc49dda2b38895fcd945fe\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00226ad747b1349040f0ad1017fab1eb6074\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ad747b1349040f0ad1017fab1eb6074\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Environment Committee on the Hauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Protection for Kiwisaver Members) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Eand the Supplementary Estimates of Appropriations for the year ending 30 June 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe report of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the briefing on the international treaty examination process\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Intelligence and Security Committee on the Supplementary Estimates of Appropriations for Vote Communications Security and Intelligence and Vote Security Intelligence for the year ending 30 June 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EFamily Proceedings (Dissolution for Family Violence) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EOffice of the Ombudsman, OPCAT reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Attorney-General under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 on the Parole Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Eand on the Victims of Family Violence (Strengthening Legal Protections) Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Bharat Guha\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Christine McCarthy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Kevin Scott\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of MyMahi, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Niru Wijesundara\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the Residential Property Managers Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022888d97fae3264d71aac0210f7fea31cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022888d97fae3264d71aac0210f7fea31cb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading. The reports on the Supplementary Estimates, the briefing, the OPCAT reports, and the Attorney-General\u2019s report are set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002299fa52489f5440149bde25471a5f972f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299fa52489f5440149bde25471a5f972f\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EOverseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESocial Workers Registration Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EEducation and Training Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETherapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220a7d49a48e2e483d95bff796fd419336\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a7d49a48e2e483d95bff796fd419336\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002203331c72be264a1895aeff1ff6b281e8\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251c6c0ce9184499c8e2275995a707a87\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister, 22 May\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00221d424dc5df15468e86db5013d7b25616\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d424dc5df15468e86db5013d7b25616\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to correct an answer I gave to oral question No. 6 on Wednesday, 22 May 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab7388cdbd444b17ac2b4502d8c30944\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that course of action? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e4ac8291c44415d8a3f1afb4806e86f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In my answer to the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s supplementary question asking whether 10,000 first-home buyers received the First Home Grant last year, I incorrectly responded with the number of homes purchased as part of the scheme, rather than the number of individuals who have relied on the scheme. For clarity, 11,483 people received a First Home Grant last year, whereas 7,870 homes were purchased using the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221213ca0ce582443c961f3dccb8cfd60c\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b9c0e3c293304bcdb8e3f11675797b94\u0022\u003EGrounding of Aratere Ferry\u2014Government Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223f854eb1ec9f4300aa3e66c8b38cfb15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f854eb1ec9f4300aa3e66c8b38cfb15\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve received letters from Tangi Utikere and Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the running aground of the Interislander ferry Aratere and the Government\u2019s response to it. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. The ferries are an integral part of our national infrastructure; a serious incident involving them and the Government\u2019s response to it warrants the attention of the House today. I received Tangi Utikere\u2019s application first and will call on him to move that the House take notice of a matter of urgent public importance, at the conclusion of question time. [Loud noise]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd746327e6942a38a8186d562f74884\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the ferry running aground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002299e96a26f4c8431e800743d42772c703\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299e96a26f4c8431e800743d42772c703\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There you go. Yeah, it could well be. Just a little sensitive, being likened to a ferry though. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bc75f3623a64601b15d13db627a78ef\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e83b2773ed5943db90cdf4c07ce6f5c5\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227df17ea12f6f4159bc1324d96d51d205\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0cc876466f447db8bd64cd6e33bf59a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0cc876466f447db8bd64cd6e33bf59a\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent announcements has she made about personal income tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022de8f9c341cd84f8bb25aa94f2cc53a7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de8f9c341cd84f8bb25aa94f2cc53a7b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In the Budget, I announced an adjustment to personal income tax thresholds. Thresholds will rise from $14,000 to $15,600, from $48,000 to $53,500, and from $70,000 to $78,100. The effect of these increases is to reduce a person\u2019s income tax by up to $40 a fortnight. The changes will apply from 31 July. They are the first positive changes to personal income rates or thresholds for 14 long years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a29fc634bec54ad699176d3c81ace577\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: What other tax relief was announced in the Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc042c0c3fca426eb48bc762d27c67ea\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: From 31 July, the in-work tax credit, which helps support low to middle income working families with children, will increase by $50 a fortnight. Depending on their family size and income, working families will therefore get up to $50\u00A0a fortnight extra. Eligibility for the independent earner tax credit has also been extended, from $48,000 a year to $70,000 a year of income. This credit is for people who do not get a benefit or Working for Families\u2014the squeezed middle, if you will. Extending the credit will help an estimated 420,000 additional people, most of whom will get the full $20 a fortnight. This, of course, is on top of the new FamilyBoost childcare payment I announced in March that will give parents and caregivers up to 25 percent back in their early childhood education fees to a maximum of $150 a fortnight. We on this side of the House are proud to have given tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders. Members opposite voted against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4fe0fb505bb4e5a87c08369b260430f\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: How much will people receive in tax relief?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2880f2b56c64241a5999f65b08617bc\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Budget material contains various scenarios. For example, a couple earning an average household income of $125,000 will benefit by up to $102 a fortnight. People\u2019s individual and family circumstances differ widely, however, which is why there is a tax calculator on the Budget website, which I\u2019m advised more than 400,000 New Zealanders have visited. Treasury modelling shows that an estimated 727,000 households will benefit by at least $75 a fortnight; 187,000 will benefit by at least $100 a fortnight. On average, households with children will benefit by $78 a fortnight. I\u2019ve occasionally heard people say that tax relief only benefits the well-off. Well, they are misinformed. Our changes to the in-work tax credit and introduction of FamilyBoost tilt the benefits of the tax package to low to middle income working families with children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a255e71adc584e16890b9827993f0caf\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: How is this tax relief funded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233c63ca04c2d4e7d90eafde3e174ce19\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, tax relief in this Budget puts $3.7 billion a year back into the pockets of New Zealanders. As the Budget documents clearly show, this tax relief is fully funded by $3.7 billion of offsetting savings and revenue measures. This funding is broadly as set out in the National Party\u2019s fiscal plan, with a handful of changes to reflect coalition commitments. As it is fully funded, there is no borrowing for tax relief. We have made the savings so New Zealanders can have more in their bank accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c589b156ba744284a2e975439b79c163\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022538963ae2b4049c5bc758c97a530166c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022538963ae2b4049c5bc758c97a530166c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022e75ce443cf104b32a7a0c152d18ea4ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e75ce443cf104b32a7a0c152d18ea4ea\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially this Government\u2019s decision to fund an additional $604 million in medicines for Pharmac. Every New Zealander knows someone, a friend or a family, who has been affected by cancer and is fighting it, and we made a promise at the election we would support them in their fight and we are keeping that promise. This Government is funding 26 treatments for cancer as part of a package of 54 more medicines, supporting around 175,000 New Zealanders in the first year of the policy, and we are very proud of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddef33f5ffff438b9e02980e635bfa4e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How many Kiwi families will be disadvantaged over the next three years as a result of his Government\u2019s decision to abolish the First Home Grant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268c28b364fdc4982b719a0045cb95a4f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again\u2014we\u2019ve spoken about this before. We have decided to make sure that we can access 1,500 more community housing provider spaces rather than continuing with a programme that actually was not as effective as other options for that money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299776ca34857411da7d092bb6f450853\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002213d0a62f1d0c4826ad373fa97958fa96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213d0a62f1d0c4826ad373fa97958fa96\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was a very specific question. I think an answer to the question would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235a39c154d064b96ab7438e45f67f817\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: If the member would like to put that question in writing, I will give him a proper answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255bfcb57a7d4462faaa335b3b9de318e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he not know how many people will be disadvantaged by the First Home Grant being abolished, or does he not care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b6df3705e640ebbaa160a152295dcf\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: There was about 7,000 people from memory, but I want to be able to give you a proper answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206956f88e1a142388371f01658822812\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has the contract for the purchase of two new inter-island ferries been formally terminated; if so, what penalties did KiwiRail have to pay to terminate the contract?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222053838eaf8c49bbbaf4c918bf0a89a4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, they\u2019re ongoing commercial conversations between KiwiRail and the provider, but what I\u2019d say to that member is we are not going to do what that previous Government did, which is basically say to the New Zealand people we\u2019ll build you a house for $750,000 and it costs $3.2 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ade83ed7968416f8a5cafb50b0afc71\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, there were two parts to the question. One was whether the contract had been terminated and the other was whether there were any penalties. The Prime Minister hasn\u2019t addressed either of those. You could argue he\u2019s addressed the second one by saying that it\u2019s commercially sensitive\u2014or couldn\u2019t release that commercially\u2014but whether or not there\u2019s still a contract in place cannot be commercially sensitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249d70ae29b274006b2b176151390c40b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that would be for the Prime Minister to determine, but the Prime Minister may wish to expand or to re-answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb2624a39c4c4b4fb09763e6475a037f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: KiwiRail have repudiated the contract, but there\u2019s ongoing commercial conversations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e485d0547f9848ee9eb64ffde0336b65\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7a2c8e962fb4337a5838c0f3bdb1704\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7a2c8e962fb4337a5838c0f3bdb1704\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary, Rt Hon Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7824a2fee214522985e3475d5e00cae\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s had three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022739b2503b195405b95e810e2628a2e3c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know that, I know that\u2014but, look, sorry, we\u2019ve been through this before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aa61a9c5a9f4969932ee84b242d9f1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I know, but you were wrong then and you\u2019re wrong\u00A0now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cffada46005d458c8809da04ea814bb9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Tell you what, it\u2019s not a good idea to start the conversation from your seat like that. This is how it\u2019s operated for quite a number of years and we\u2019re going to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022975ef203e02942c08c93a4e8da971380\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has the contract been formally terminated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246ce4b7fecd548a58109098cb3b6bdb5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: They are subject to commercial conversations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d344648a883342b6a53b395dd9e24042\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could you, Prime Minister, let us know as to whether or not the person asking these questions, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins, right now, saw the contract about which he is demanding now to know more information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b67d7c031bb74b1f91d7fc931b4447e2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not a question that the Prime Minister can answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d693463ba5f41928b21621174acd975\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m asking him to confirm whether he knows that or not. That\u2019s not difficult, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236f960e17cb943c8a06b8169af9e378b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I see. OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229da415b90a7c4928a85b78cd46bdd24e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s axiomatic. If we\u2019re talking details, we need to know what we\u2019re talking about, and I want to know whether this Prime Minister here has been told that the previous Prime Minister saw that contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002294802df8d0f94e17a4a37b22c4f456fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294802df8d0f94e17a4a37b22c4f456fd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Very good. Ask the question again so we\u2019re all clear what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c9b5b3979164b86b4cf1f2bad83afac\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Right, very slowly: Prime Minister, has the previous Prime Minister advised you or anyone in your Cabinet that he saw the contract about which he is now complaining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e287022493c748f89166dcb89371b1fa\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019d have to assume he has, but the bottom line is he didn\u2019t manage the contract and we saw a massive cost blowout from $750 million to $3.2 billion and rising\u2014another piece of the Labour Government\u2019s economic mismanagement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c2aa835b3eb4f0786bc7b71a51ca637\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware of which Minister announced the deal to buy two new mega-ferries; if so, who was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b5a086ed6b429fae197db5a43dc83d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I have no recall on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269801d037ad741ca82a78ddc59577b08\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister been told\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b3e423a524e440db60bdda7727585cd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. We\u2019ll wait till you get a fair go from the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c08bece5749f48b7a1bd9faef1189862\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I quite agree. Has the Prime Minister been advised as to the Minister who made the announcement that two ferries were to be purchased, but what was the prescription that was put around at the time, not as being described erroneously to the media by the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b2e2731ee914cb5bb6dca0e0f55ffcd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure\u2014knowing that Minister, how financially responsible he is and how well bounded he is\u2014it would have been very well framed. But subsequent, what I\u2019d say is that Government let it get out of control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234870709b2344dbbbb8fc43a77cf2f20\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That answer from the Prime Minister simply cannot be compatible with the answer he gave immediately previous to that where he said he didn\u2019t know who the Minister was when he\u2019s now subsequently answered a question defending Winston Peters, who, of course, was the Minister who set up that deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022887820c0db614fd5995063d3de6f646a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022887820c0db614fd5995063d3de6f646a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think you made your point. You get another supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b895cf8d8c3f44d4830bc5f761ed45bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he guarantee that any new inter-island ferries purchased will cost less than the contracted purchase price of the two ferries the Government has cancelled the order for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bba3e74b456b428c82f28d3f18bff022\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, what I can guarantee and reassure that member about is that this Government knows how to run economics. We know how to manage projects, right? Unlike that Government, who somehow thought it was perfectly reasonable to go spend $750 million, which turns into $3.2 billion and rising. You have no economic credentials, no economic record; you haven\u2019t been able to deliver a pizza, let alone ferries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8cf19ee11cc45ef93fc68f4913b2984\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. If the Prime Minister is so great on economics, I\u2019m sure he can answer the question, which is whether the new ferries are going to be more expensive than the ferries that he cancelled the contract for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2cb09213cc4e3bb2b2e9fca1c7df4e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell you it\u2019s going to be a lot less than $3.2\u00A0billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dbd2ad7db6e474c94fb30923e506267\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that by the time Project iReX was repudiated, the cost of the ferries themselves was only 21 percent of the total project cost; that is, the garage was going to cost four times as much as the ship that was going in it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fda0a48170043cb983a0874dba923bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I can; 80 percent of the cost were now associated with port redevelopments in Wellington and Picton, for big ships that actually didn\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022805fcd8fc2e04b9787c826f0cf59611d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u00229398093499174f4c827f9ea00504249c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229398093499174f4c827f9ea00504249c\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022f300a9216856412a8ca2e944c8686e86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f300a9216856412a8ca2e944c8686e86\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do, and especially this Government\u2019s work to take action on housing, including by freeing up the rules on granny flats. I\u2019m particularly proud that we\u2019re consulting on how those rules can enable M\u0101ori communities to develop papak\u0101inga and kaum\u0101tua housing on their own land. After years of neglect that saw the number of Kiwis living in emergency motels spike, we\u2019re taking action to deliver more choices on housing and more opportunities for Kiwis to get into a home of their own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022005732af43c944789be0c72a6e7c3cb8\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to native Hawaiians who are urging New Zealand to withdraw from the Rim of the Pacific Exercise (RIMPAC), which provides a forum for Israel to sell surveillance equipment and military training to other countries, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bde4438494fb4639be1fccfc4fe393bc\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, tell us about Manurewa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224008518cdbac404baad0dc97377c3f45\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Listen\u2014just a minute. Those outbursts are not helpful. When a question is being asked, the House is silent. Now, the member gets quite a degree of leeway with other interjections, so let\u2019s not transgress into the land of the question. Please start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229afee8fd2967433aa491e2234e9bf62b\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. What is his response to native Hawaiians who are urging New Zealand to withdraw from RIMPAC, which provides a forum for Israel to sell surveillance equipment and military training to other countries and directly profit from destruction of their native lands?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e99a14d5bbb45bbab384d5faa74374c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t seen those comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdf472d4902c4f5980f6c19eebe55af0\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that participating in these military exercises with Israel makes New Zealand complicit in Israel\u2019s war crimes in Palestine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284f53268d0b149a38bd5b4ce92e65a60\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just say to the member I\u2019m not sure what she\u2019s referencing, but I\u2019m very happy to take further questions on it and come back with a more considered answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022845ed849fcf74cc4b10f160d163bdbee\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What does he believe New Zealand\u2019s role is in upholding\u00A0the human rights of our Pacific neighbours in Kanaky and West Papua who are fighting for their lives against oppressive colonial occupations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229468476a68944182bf4fa4980a6b3b83\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I\u2019d say to that member is that I have\u2014you know, the Pacific Islands Forum (PIF) is the central body by which Pacific leaders resolve Pacific challenges. On all of those issues, we try and use the centrality of PIF as the reason by which we resolve our regional issues, and we\u2019ll continue to do that when we meet together in Tonga at the Pacific Island leaders\u2019 forum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f57a6d1d585747e3bf86040f05d3f6cf\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What action, if any, will his Government take against Indonesia for their role in killing over 500,000 West Papuans in the last 60 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219f368a8e9964b038db2cc11ffb50e20\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, we have a series of regional architecture where we raise regional issues and we develop regional solutions to those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223155a18098fc4f2eab73e3fb7a5bcdb5\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: How can he justify cutting the minimum wage subsidy for workers with disabilities when it will lead to hundreds of disabled workers being paid less than the minimum wage\u2014some as low as $2 per hour further?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d9af1d5e1204647ac4f48c94a4f9953\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, what we want to do is make sure that, actually, disabled people who want to work can work. Many of them actually receive the minimum wage today, but for those that are more severely disabled that actually want to participate in work, we want to encourage them to be able to do so. There\u2019s obviously other support packages that are available to people from the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d7e099a86946d7b54e55a2df6c5f21\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266dc1badf9234277b143204cfab390e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b74e89f605c4ab2b2e284d701aeb319\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to organisations like the Auckland City Mission, who will need to cut annual food parcels to families in need from 50,000 to 20,000 at a time when food insecurity is at an all-time high as a result of this Government\u2019s Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb9628778d2643009a2b625293fc330d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that has been a function of a significant uplift of spending through the COVID period that was time-limited, and those funds have now come to an end. What we are doing incredibly hard in this Government is to make sure that we actually deal with the underlying cause of the challenges, which is inflation. We want to drive inflation down so we can drive interest rates down so we can grow the economy and keep people in work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df079559303749b1bccd6876ad949b29\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Can he name any reports or evidence he has seen that shows policies such as the three-strikes legislation, military boot camps, and longer sentences will reduce crime rates in Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a1a7b27ce56485ca2cc5f0a02c85eba\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can tell you the last six years showed us that carrying on doing more of the same didn\u2019t work, and those results are utterly unacceptable. No New Zealander wants to see a 33 percent increase in violent crime, a 100\u00A0percent increase in retail crime, a quadrupling of ram raids. This Government is determined to try things and do things differently to get different results. We make no apologies for being tough on crime and being tough on making sure we support young people who need to change the course of their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa414e3d6d8a44209e574c83c31c05dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister as to whether he has seen any evidence that those on disability and being supported by the State were happy to receive the employment rates that they were getting until the previous Government interfered with it, and, consequently, so many of those disabled people then lost their job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a38255c5cbf64a09aa0f1c030bc50cd8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the thing is we want to make sure that employers are encouraged to take on disabled people who want to be able to work, but, again, we have other support services through the beneficiary system to support those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4ecceae5d9e4c23b5b63d828d569d84\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the evidence that shows that increased poverty and economic inequality is the leading cause of increased crime rates? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9706ed6eb3e4e1092af3805d42658e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I missed the last word in that question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c851a1915383438d8e434716b368e316\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CCrime rates\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca83a29aecab4f2884ef27f38b4c4f87\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Crime rates\u2014oh, right. Well, what I can tell you is that accepting that crime as it is not acceptable to this Government. We actually are saying there is a major problem in crime in New Zealand. After six years of a \u201Csoft on crime\u201D Government, we\u2019re going to do something very different about it. So, yes, we\u2019re going to continue to work on poverty by making sure we rebuild this economy, lower the cost of living, and actually grow the joint, and we\u2019re going to make sure that we restore law and order so New Zealanders feel safe in their homes, their businesses, and their communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d45ccadb8c364a86becc29141806c342\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022c29dffff496f47fcaaad5fb026d6100d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c29dffff496f47fcaaad5fb026d6100d\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent announcements has the Government made about increasing access to medicines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3029dfedd7e4a03a101818493c5187e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3029dfedd7e4a03a101818493c5187e\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, the Government delivered on our commitment to fund more cancer treatments, with an unprecedented and transformative investment in cancer and other treatments. This substantial injection will allow Pharmac to fund up to 26 cancer treatments alongside a further 28 other treatments. Increasing access to vital medicines is the right thing to do. I want to thank Associate Minister of Health the Hon David Seymour for his role in this announcement, and also New Zealand First, whose coalition agreement included increasing the Pharmac budget each year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e552e539402e4b329812ab8ae1e7e41c\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: What does this transformational announcement mean for New\u00A0Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1db67b3ae1243c4989874a8dfad83a4\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: Up to 175,000 New Zealanders will benefit from the overall expanded package of up to 54 medicines in the first year alone. The announcement means that not only will treatments for all the cancer types in the pre-election manifesto list be covered but also a number of other treatments, including for blood cancers and other tumours. This major announcement adds to a number of other cancer announcements that we have already made. We have set a target of 90 percent of patients to receive cancer management within 31 days of the decision to treat. We have also increased breast-screening eligibility to 74-year-olds; funded PET scanning accessibility for pathology, like prostate cancer; expanded infusion services in Whanganui; invested in the new radiotherapy machine at Whang\u0101rei Hospital; and provided an extra $18 million a year to help people who need to travel for cancer treatments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a76ca40b5ad433c9b0f36fcb39927ad\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps to ensure New Zealanders can access these treatments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a39a3de6eb048bfb5bcef782932b021\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: As a Government, we have worked hard to ensure that this announcement was not just one of new funding but also one of delivery. We had to make sure that we got the implementation right. That is why further funding to deliver and administer these new treatments has been made available for both Pharmac and Health New Zealand, further to our record investment of $16.68 billion into health as part of Budget 2024. New Zealanders should expect to see some of the newly funded cancer treatments become available from October-November this year, with more being phased in over the next year. This announcement shows that we\u2019re a Government committed to delivering on health, and specifically around cancer, which we know impacts many New Zealanders and their families each year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3727646c09646138490e9a954f226fa\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has the Minister seen about this announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022367367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb21a593fcfe44df862f14b74d1e3d77\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: The feedback that we have received has been overwhelmingly positive. Patient Voice Aotearoa chair Malcolm Mulholland has called this announcement a \u201Cgame-changer\u201D and \u201Cfantastic news for patients\u201D, saying that he is chuffed that 175,000 Kiwis will get access to the medicines that they so desperately need. Patient advocate Melissa Vining has said that she is \u201Cjust so happy that patients won\u2019t have to face that burden of mortgaging their homes or setting up a Givealittle [page] to receive treatment that is available in comparable countries.\u201D Rachael Hart, chief executive of the Cancer Society of New Zealand, says that \u201CThis is a momentous day for New Zealand.\u201D, and other front-line oncologists have described this announcement as \u201Ctruly a historic level of investment\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df79b4c3a24649188a9f905d2fb4bc75\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002258fa1a17a41c412a91320c3bf29fa393\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258fa1a17a41c412a91320c3bf29fa393\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by her statement that \u201CI can swear, better times are ahead\u201D; if so, how many additional people will be unemployed in 2025 according to her Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002231aaff13d8d1476189e6ccbcfac32f06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231aaff13d8d1476189e6ccbcfac32f06\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the question, yes. It is a particularly difficult time right now for New Zealanders, as high interest rates are required to bring down the rampant inflation that flourished in 2022 and 2023, but the economy will pick up and better times are ahead. To the second part of the question, there is no information in the Budget update itself about the number of people forecast to be unemployed. It does show forecasts, however, of the rate of unemployment, which has been rising since 2021. However, to be helpful, I am advised that Treasury\u2019s background forecasts not contained within the Budget show that the number of people unemployed in the September quarter of 2025 is expected to be 1,000 fewer than the number of people unemployed in the September quarter of 2024, and that, after that, the number of people unemployed continues to decline each quarter out to the end of the forecast period. I can swear better times are ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1fe2affac4146f48917fac66fd41395\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: How can better times be ahead for the 204,000 people who will be on jobseeker support when those people see no benefit of the tax cuts and there is nothing in the Budget for beneficiaries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9b6dd2af3214159935588af971ed1f9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve just articulated, if the member listened, the number of people unemployed is set to decline between the September quarter of this year and next year, which is good news, I would have thought, by any read. I think perhaps what the member may be referring to is the spectacular achievement of the outgoing Government, which managed to have job seeker numbers increasing even while unemployment was reducing. Well, on this side of the House, we view it as an achievement to support people into work, and that is what Louise Upston is working very hard on doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235c5a60a603a421e8a5afc07377f4ec2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Are better times ahead for the approximately 140,000 children who are currently in poverty and the additional 20,000 children who will be in poverty as a result of her Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c5ade151b2d4d16a96493532eaa6636\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when you look at the child poverty report, it shows quite clearly that the rate of child poverty by one measure will reduce because of the initiatives in our Budget. What it also shows is that when you deliver tax relief to lower and middle income families with children, those households have more income as a result, and that is good for those kids. I just wish members opposite weren\u2019t so hard-hearted that they voted against that relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc542a7c953431983b153819bbe352c\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that expenditure on welfare, excluding New Zealand super, is $18 billion or thereabouts, and only the Labour Party would describe that as nothing in the Budget for beneficiaries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caa4e70cfcc144bb910cfb17d2ba9b1a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on that side of the House with the Labour Party, they believe that the sign of success\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5e4d34cd404f079690686d3cf426b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no\u2014the Minister can\u2019t answer for another party. The Minister can only answer the first part of that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292eda214392a495ead730ce626cb0db2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: A very good question. Actually, on this side of the House, what we believe is that the sign of success is how many people you help into employment, not simply how much you spend on servicing their unemployment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bce94a5c39b74d86a1568f30b29d4b0c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Are better times ahead for first-home buyers when their hopes of buying a home have been stripped by this Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022832cbb5d181549d3a29e342d3601a7d9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I completely reject the characterisation in the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e829043db444a83bafde74258e0c1a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Are better times ahead when the New Zealand Construction Industry Council\u2019s Tommy Honey has said, \u201CWe\u2019re going to see a lot more construction companies at risk of going to the wall if they can\u2019t get the work that they\u2019ve been getting over the last few years.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215f601347fbd4984ad7d2d787183f025\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are a couple of things going on here. The first is that, as the member knows, interest rates have been high for a year. That has a very real impact on those in sectors that rely on borrowing. Now, what is important is that we do our bit to ensure that we\u2019re not adding fuel to the inflation fire, as that Government did so rampantly, causing interest rates to go higher than would have otherwise been the case. The second thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a190a190d6c94e6cadc8cb995f3906e2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The member has had swipes at the former Government\u2019s policies throughout her answers and that is just another one, and it\u2019s entirely out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279be01865f424068b79dd76088ce697d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, there are two aspects. I\u2019ve looked at this quite extensively. Reporting of historic facts or factual information is not unreasonable in an answer, but when it comes to answering for another party or making a suggestion about another party\u2019s policy, that is unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022824a3600227241bbb1815db0938c9f62\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: She said \u201Crampant\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222404180b4fe14781977c6453d0e18bc2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to rule the word \u201Crampant\u201D out of order, but I would suggest that the Minister speaks about her own Government\u2019s performance more than a previous Government\u2019s performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e0aeb825c24407d96478bd4d971930a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: So as I said, two things going on: one, you\u2019ve got to get the fundamentals right, which is actually about getting low, stable inflation so interest rates can decline, which helps everyone in the economy. Sorry to give you an economics lecture, but that is the truth of it. The second thing is about the Government\u2019s role in infrastructure investment. I\u2019m advised that over the next five years, we will be investing $68 billion in infrastructure. Here\u2019s a critical difference: when we talk about investing in infrastructure, we don\u2019t mean visualisations of a light rail train on the front page of the New Zealand Herald. What we mean is actual people in hard hats with actual diggers and spades repairing potholes, fixing roads, and getting things built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ed5961a92fe4222bd2976796935bcfc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister of Finance confirm that if house prices are stabilised, inflation and interest rates come down, and more homes are built, then it\u2019s very likely that first-home buyers will be massively advantaged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ebabc1d39aa41dc991d3f402eb2ec56\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm exactly that, and what the Deputy Prime Minister conveys is a much deeper understanding of the housing market than the members opposite, who thought they\u2019d fix it by building 100,000 KiwiBuild homes. Well, how did that work out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226cc90e879be4b82bffc234ca44e8d0b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Are the only group that can expect better times ahead landlords, who get a $2.9 billion tax cut?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226912d02923794cb3a38fd2cde1df3248\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member would do well to dwell on the facts in my\u00A0little tax book which says 3.5 million households benefit from tax relief, and she voted against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002262034722caa5477a87443a1a395c9992\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health (Pharmac)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c816fff64ff2446e9692eab3d27c6f8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c816fff64ff2446e9692eab3d27c6f8b\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health (Pharmac): What announcements has he made about delivering more medicines to New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbcdc159a5124c1facd361d03bcc2a8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbcdc159a5124c1facd361d03bcc2a8e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Health (Pharmac)):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s an excellent question. Yesterday, in collaboration with my friend and fellow Whang\u0101rei-n Dr\u00A0Shane Reti, the Minister of Health, our Government\u2019s announced $604 million of extra money to buy medicines for New Zealanders over four years. This has been described as a game-changer, and in a country that has under-invested in medicines and treatments for far too long, it most certainly is. And Pharmac advised that this kind of money will help\u00A0up to 175,000 people with medicines they wouldn\u2019t have otherwise had: 54 medicines; 26 of them aimed at cancer. That is a real change in our approach to healthcare in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221f245cdf68740538677749ed97628e0\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: Is he confident that Pharmac will be able to continue delivering improved access to medicines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f798f2b2d9442e48d3a10ba024c8257\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I have spoken with the chief executive of Pharmac and they accept that making sure that this huge uplift in funding is spent well, to get value for money for all New Zealand patients, is a challenge, and they have been allocated additional money in the range of $2 million to $3 million a year to help them with this enormous procurement task of more medicines for Kiwi patients. However, this is what Pharmac are good at. They are an entity filled with people\u2014skills in finance and pharmacology and negotiating to get the best possible deal for Kiwi patients, and I\u2019m very confident that\u2019s what they will do with these additional funds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f19cc2bd9e94ab6afc4a2adf5088439\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it important that the Pharmac model is used to deliver new medicines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf5af20a1754877ac54a438f9e28ef7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said, Pharmac is filled with people with, I think, extraordinary ability and I\u2019m very proud to be the Minister responsible for this Crown entity. They have people with the skills and abilities, they know the pharmaceutical market, they know the developing technology, they know how to negotiate, and they know what value for money looks like. They are also an entity that is on a growth curve, improving its listening to patient voice and improving its agility and dexterity at delivering and funding medicines faster as the Government works through Medsafe to consent them faster. For all of those reasons, I think it\u2019s an excellent entity and it\u2019s going to do a very good job at delivering these extra medicines for Kiwi patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b29de003f48341179678c5f19acfc746\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: What else will he be doing to improve access to medicine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2c464d01404926bba655361d8a4131\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are reforming Medsafe and the way that it consents new medicines\u2014in particular, putting in place the rule of two where a pharmaceutical or treatment that is consented in two other peer countries must be consented in New Zealand within 30 days of application to Medsafe. We have already ensured that medicines which are being consented with Medsafe can begin consenting for funding with Pharmac simultaneously, saving time getting medicines for market so they can start making New Zealanders well more quickly. This is the kind of thinking and innovation that is required in order to get better outcomes for the patient and may actually save the taxpayer money elsewhere in the healthcare system by allowing New Zealanders to return to work and live more active lives, which is good for the taxpayer and good for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002205721079efb7424d922bde952cb33f90\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3d5986592dd4d80bb004a731ea55b16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3d5986592dd4d80bb004a731ea55b16\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022076eb78da9f245ff9cecb8a17dcd12f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022076eb78da9f245ff9cecb8a17dcd12f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, but I just also want to acknowledge co-leader Marama Davidson and wish her and her family well in the struggle and challenge that she\u2019s going through at this time. Look, yes, especially the Government\u2019s action to restore law and order, and crime has skyrocketed in recent years, and Kiwis, frankly, are sick of it. I\u2019m sick of it, and everyone is. After years of neglect, this Government is finally taking action. We\u2019re going after the gangs. We\u2019re bringing back three strikes. We\u2019re putting limits on judicial discounts, and, on Sunday, we announced there\u2019ll be more cops on the beat in Auckland Central from 1 July, fighting violent and retail crime. I\u2019d just say to that member: if she cared about crime in Auckland and if she cared about keeping Kiwis safe, she\u2019d back those policies and finally deliver better results for her constituents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dda7dea3efd479c8ab7b2aa9bbb3688\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile the statement of Christopher Luxon \u201CWe are fixated on making sure that we deliver on net zero carbon 2050\u201D with his Government\u2019s decision to reopen oil and gas exploration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022940cfb2a9fb94666b0e0f8363bcd1195\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d just say to that member: we need to make sure that we actually have gas in this country as part of our energy mix. It\u2019s really important. What we have inherited is a whole bunch of bumper stickers and announcements for an oil and gas ban\u2014no follow-through, no plan, and now we have an energy security challenge in this country. So we need to reverse the oil and gas ban, and I\u2019d encourage that member to support us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f5fe2690cc7414daf2a2ca621df9ae9\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that the average time for offshore oil and gas development, from exploration permit to first production, is 16 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022519074a96e014f37af6354e85dccd639\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: And that\u2019s why it had quite a chilling effect when that Government just announced the bumper sticker, under some political pressure, without thinking through the next steps. We are in a situation where we have a shortage of gas in this country. That\u2019s going to impact some of our businesses, and as a result of poorly thought-through policy, now we\u2019re dealing with the consequences. But we\u2019ll clean\u00A0it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf0723fd12b64f6984a941a7b6a65dcc\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: So can the Prime Minister then confirm the purpose\u2014what is the purpose?\u2014of the Government\u2019s plan to open up new oil and gas exploration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022862d594fbd5d4ca58043db38ee5bee64\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, energy security would be number one. The second thing would be to avoid using coal, so we can use gas. It\u2019s better than coal but not as good as renewables.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a23e841aa948679e55b9d4e5aa956b\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: What special data and evidence does the Prime Minister have access to in order to disagree with the International Energy Agency that \u201CTo achieve net zero, no new oil and gas fields are required beyond those already approved for development as of 2021\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e3e51e6805f4487a51db3a5499fd2d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m worried about this country\u2019s energy security\u2014hospitals, schools, and businesses running out of gas because of a poorly thought-through bumper sticker, Post-it note policy from the previous administration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225567b773930446cbaa1345b30d595631\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Prime Minister confirm that the policy he\u2019s enunciating is in line with that of our closest economic partner, Australia, led by a Labor Party Government and Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, on the interest of gas being used in the transition, which is a realistic position, not one with the fairies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022236394f4ba4b4870b760fe299f6a0eeb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that we need gas as a transitory source of energy for this country\u2019s energy security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022633266b5f367468bace91057c5a1a9aa\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile drilling for more oil and gas with what Christopher Luxon, National Party leader, campaigned on, as I read from the National Party website: \u201CTo deliver on New Zealand\u2019s climate goals, we need whole sectors of the New Zealand economy to switch to clean electricity. It makes no sense to encourage the shift to electric vehicles if the power comes from burning coal. New Zealand must have enough renewable electricity to meet the rising demand.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208408d68d1444904b759bf272bb2dd48\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m really excited to hear the members enthusiasm for driving and doubling the amount of renewables in this country, and what I\u2019d just say to you is that I\u2019d encourage you to support our fast-track legislation, because what we want to do is double the amount of renewables, and I welcome your support, because if you cared about climate change, you\u2019d back that. If you actually cared about climate change, you\u2019d reverse the oil and gas ban. If you cared about actually mining for critical minerals that actually drive our climate change, come and support us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ea1f9499f243f09ae853326616832f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Dig that hole!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222102f401c829488689eab40a0d54c255\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Drill, drill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b15265be50814b738c9c5116a3da8045\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re just going to wait while the House calms down a bit. That sort of outburst is not particularly well received by the public who do watch this question time. So I would suggest that while passions run high over topics like climate change, some little bit of decorum might be well worth holding on to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002259996b3ea82546b8bf31766d7a2ac7d1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00225e9b97fde9434ba3abfa1049965c0d90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e9b97fde9434ba3abfa1049965c0d90\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour\u2014Kelston)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by all her statements made at the Estimates hearing of the Social Services and Community Committee on 19 June?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022bba3c7e6678a4dd09f9d21c171cf8f46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bba3c7e6678a4dd09f9d21c171cf8f46\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. In particular, my statement that when this Government took office, we inherited a welfare system that was supporting about 70,000 more people on jobseeker benefit than six years earlier, despite having gone through periods where workers were in high demand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa80f5092c2f42519f89b5b1094c6a04\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by her statement that she received no advice regarding the 9,000 beneficiaries who will be worse off as a consequence of the tax changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022824cdbeb392d4916b74128c349da9fde\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c1c7d1915dc482e9855d98a605d7edd\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that this information was in the regulatory impact statement finalised on 24 April, and did the Minister not read the advice provided to her or read it but not understand it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abca3cfec9d840fbbfeb8f1bffede2ec\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of any of the policies around the tax changes, they are the responsibility of the Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c87b5bf227741be94167b47b3f08bf3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That answer cannot be allowed to stand. This is a question about a statement that the Minister herself has made and the advice that she has received. She can\u2019t simply say that\u2019s another Minister\u2019s responsibility. She\u2019s responsible for her own statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022036dd1958364497b9a20744df5d5a463\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, we\u2019ll have the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fd3fe4ffae74a37a83b945f7f16b296\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that this information was in the regulatory impact statement finalised on 24 April, and did the Minister not read the advice provided to her or read it but not understand it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a56c9affc7ef48789ebfbc2a1cca55f8\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I did not receive or seek advice directly about a tax change, because it is the responsibility of the Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022287287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afde735117564f6cbedd79c95609f2e5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Regulatory impact statements go to all Cabinet Ministers, so the Minister\u2019s answer simply cannot be correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022041c1046fa0d47558f0fc2a758a561aa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s probably a pedantic point, with all due respect. The Ministers in that case will be receiving multiples of impact statements. Now, I\u2019m sure that Ministers in the member\u2019s Government probably read all of them, but I have to take the member\u2019s word in this case, and the House will make its own conclusions about that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf16a69ace3b4e41816845867cbd8130\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister state that disabled people would lose their jobs if the minimum-wage exemption was scrapped, given over $11\u00A0million a year was budgeted by the previous Government to subsidise the employers to pay decent wages to those workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022962c1e1c715a4fda8f5cef181a14e650\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The minimum wage exemption that exists supports a number of often severely intellectually disabled people that receive the supported living payment and, in addition to that, have the opportunity to work through disability enterprises. They have provided feedback to me directly that what was proposed by the previous Government would not be successful and they would risk not being able to continue to employ disabled people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff2776c8e3d94b0b9c4efd3984d9de54\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What, if any, strategy does the Government have in place to respond to an increasing demand for food being experienced by groups like the Auckland City Mission, the Salvation Army, and other providers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fae8fa0920f7467bbda5fd08f9fe894c\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, that\u2019s not within the scope of the primary question, but I could answer it if you wish me to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d87d83e2c8e42c5bca7da15cfbf310a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think the member should have a go at answering it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022278278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241547834aa934b3db890694395e068ea\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: So there are obviously some very challenging times at the moment, which is why the Government\u2019s priority is rebuilding the economy, is reducing the cost of living crisis, and is providing tax relief so that New Zealanders are able to afford food. And in terms of demand for the provision through food banks, which is concerning, we are providing assistance to them and will continue to work with them to see if that demand goes further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bd220eacf7a4f988369fded09ba099c\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: How can beneficiaries, the working poor, and disabled people have any confidence in a Minister who doesn\u2019t remember or ignores advice she received, chooses to cut $11 million a year that was to be used to pay disabled people a minimum wage, and doesn\u2019t prioritise funding of social services who are feeding our most vulnerable during a challenging time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fa1fd6282e44071a6125ec0517cf4d6\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: We are clear on this side of the House that we want to reduce the cost of living so more New Zealanders who are working get tax relief and don\u2019t require the support of places like food banks. We want to ensure that those who are severely disabled who receive the supported living payment continue to have the opportunity to be in employment, and we want to see a lot fewer job seekers than that former MP oversaw joining the beneficiary ranks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022671b48998b884aafa53f207925492dc2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce5b4b5c7c37416eb4c52c42f357d3be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce5b4b5c7c37416eb4c52c42f357d3be\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcements has she made about specialist schools in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b23a79de8ab242e8bd1d62e263278463\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b23a79de8ab242e8bd1d62e263278463\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I was incredibly proud to recently announce a landmark $89 million investment in specialist schools that will improve the condition of classrooms around New Zealand for some of our learners with the most diverse, complex, and fragile needs. This funding secures the rebuild of Sommerville, Maitai, and Sir Keith Park specialist schools, in addition to a $26 million investment in 17 new satellite classrooms based in mainstream schools around the country. This Government believes in parental choice and, by upgrading and expanding specialist schools, we are providing this choice. To the 681 families who are on a waiting list to access specialist schools, this investment will mean more enrolments. I am delighted that our Government has been able to provide targeted investment to upgrade and expand the offering of our specialist schools to better meet the needs of families and their tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b73818d9e1984753b61e137bfb520b06\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has she seen that are supporting her announcements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d441cc4215414d7882c9704bb8bfce6e\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: A recent report released by the Education Review Office (ERO), entitled Built in, not bolted on, highlighted some of the most vulnerable learners in our classrooms around the country that are in a terrible state. The ERO report quotes that they are not suitable to meet the needs of students. It\u2019s heartbreaking to learn of specialist classrooms that have been closed due to the growth of black mould and mushrooms, knowing the impact that this could have on the health and wellbeing of some of our most vulnerable learners. ERO also noted that there have been no new specialist schools built in the last 50 years, despite a 62 percent increase in their roll since 2013. The Special Education Principals\u2019 Association president said the announcement came after years of under-funding and she\u2019s grateful that this Government has strongly positioned specialist education as being part of the continuum of choice for parents, backed up with investment in property, which is long overdue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bf394bbdf6f4df688107f58be24ba30\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What other changes did the Minister announce as part of this investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab0c87d44e3041cfb64f367aeb850010\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this announcement is just the start and it signals this Government\u2019s firm commitment to specialist education provision and parental choice in education. ERO\u2019s report noted that specialist schools offer students a highly adapted programme of learning tailored to their abilities and interests and that all 27 specialist day schools employ a specialist workforce who support students\u2019 overall development. In line with ERO\u2019s recommendations, this Government will include specialist schools and satellite classrooms in network planning to better reflect demand and reduce wait times for this type of provision. The expansion of satellite classrooms will also make more of the specialist support available in mainstream settings and foster collaborative practice amongst our teachers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223860313f82da4b37ac6db0ee1f0b8267\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she seen about this announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a24d294f68412994be377badfc3bac\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve received strong support from across the sector. The principal of Blomfield Special School said she was delighted with the announcement of two new satellite teaching spaces at Bay of Islands College and felt relieved for wh\u0101nau in the mid-North who did not have anywhere for current satellite students to go after primary school. I wish to just share a quick message with the House from a parent of a seven-year-old who has autism. They are on a waiting list for access to a specialist satellite classroom. She wrote: \u201CIt will be life changing for our son if we can get him into a unit.\u201D She spoke of the benefits of being able to work with specialist teachers and aids, with the hope that he will be able to attend school full time for the first time in his life. Those stories and those parents are why our Government has made this investment, and it is just the start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b01d32a61214aebae3d211a55631e25\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014State Owned Enterprises\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022665c5c8b7232411596bb905289d557e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022665c5c8b7232411596bb905289d557e1\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for State Owned Enterprises: Can he guarantee that the Government\u2019s replacement ferries for the Cook Strait will be cheaper than those to be delivered in the cancelled iReX project; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9db354b51e44fee8fd087b6c92e3398\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9db354b51e44fee8fd087b6c92e3398\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for State Owned Enterprises):\u003C/span\u003E While the Government has not made a formal decision around the purchase of new ferries, as the Prime Minister has said, \u201CThe Government is absolutely committed to ensuring that we can get great new ships on the Cook Strait\u201D. And, in doing so, we definitely expect the total cost of any such project to be significantly less than the $3 billion, which was the cost of Project iReX when it was cancelled by KiwiRail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022332ff0e4160a4cf996e9cefb1be82625\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That question was about the cost of the ferries, quite clearly, not the cost of the overall project. The Minister\u2019s answer referred only to the overall cost of the project but not the ferries themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022400f8a9c7d544089b01a5bfe9ab6b27b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s true, but the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224945c01d104949618f5f8e2e6cf651cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, can I help here? Please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae41d2716824e73a50fd14edf9df2a0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look\u2014I realise I\u2019m fairly remedial in this job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce3c4c2f46ea49718a803540c3e52dd1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Look, Mr Speaker, he\u2019s a lawyer; he got\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294d3d892895f482399778d2bef75966a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on, I haven\u2019t called you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecdf5f24895348d692a1a33320f1b9a6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The iReX project wasn\u2019t just for the ferries; it was for the other infrastructure, and that\u2019s what he should have read in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab9459c99a5640288575a2a047d9bc1d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good, OK. Look, so I think the Minister\u2019s answer started with \u201CThere\u2019s been no formal Government decision\u201D. At that point, it\u2019s hard to expect that there would be a further qualification inside the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a46240e66e14411992529dfa625ed2e\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Has the cancellation of iReX specifically related to the ferry build part of the contract actually been actioned; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208542f3c09c74ac2aa7b2c5406c348c6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The contract has been repudiated and ongoing discussions are continuing around the exit cost of that. The ferries will not be coming because we\u2019re not going to spend $3 billion on an overall project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fed25a51af44e7db4e68f933e560811\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that indicative costs associated with the wind-down and cancellation of the build to date will total more than the $551 million figure for the build locked in by the previous Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022924f4de4d8d84cb4a874f8b91dfd42d3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I cannot confirm that, and I won\u2019t be making any comments about ongoing negotiation. The simple point is that it is a painful exercise we\u2019re going through, and it is one of the very many financial bombs that this Government discovered on coming into office\u2014that we had a project that went from $700 million to more than $3 billion and it was unaffordable and inappropriate, and that\u2019s why this Government stopped that project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a30cedbc11447c6a75969f2153d0639\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government deliver new ferries by 2026, the date the new ferries were due to be operational; if not, when can New Zealanders expect to be using new ferries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cc3696de0574a1f9629ced20a4d874a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re still considering options on replacement ferries and we have every expectation that we\u2019ll make progress well before the 2029 date that has been considered for the current ferries. And so what we\u2019re working through is dealing with a situation where we had a project that blew out unbelievably over the course of the past few years, which the previous Government didn\u2019t manage, and this Government is fixing up their mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265dc36a0cf0e44aab2ff642ffea6b765\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that even if the ships had arrived, there were still very real questions about where they would berth as they were too large for the berths, and can he also confirm that the harbour master had questioned whether they could actually safely go through the Tory Channel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229532e07f45b74821a1535d5a3bc480e7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There were a wide range of issues with that project, and the primary one was that because the ships were so much bigger than the current ships and were rail-enabled, it required enormous costs to be put into the port\u2019s infrastructure. Now, as those prices escalated, the previous Government had many opportunities to deal with this matter. They didn\u2019t. They left it for this Government to deal with, and we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299bc8609a1464b7d95d1704031751e52\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Was the ministerial advisory group\u2019s initial advice, upon their appointment, to continue with the contracted iReX ferry build?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a86e7a64c70403a9a78f7121ba3476f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The ministerial advisory group has given us plenty of advice and I\u2019m not going to go into the details of that because we continue to have ongoing discussions about those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a50e9da7bd842d39452bb3d1d25376b\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Has KiwiRail warned the Government that due to reputational damage of breaking the contract, it may not be able to procure new ships for decades and that it could also impact other Government ship procurements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223204a4dd69ff49ac9ad65235330f6509\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are having ongoing discussions around procuring new ships and I have not received any advice that it is impossible to get new ships. It\u2019s just a question of time, and we\u2019re working our way through that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cba746f56dfd4c5a90b60e3feac4d6e0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7690f82eaaf4a72b8e0553ac69c3fa9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7690f82eaaf4a72b8e0553ac69c3fa9\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does she agree with the Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner, who said on the creation of the Young Serious Offender category and military-style bootcamps that she wants \u201Cto see an approach that helps to rehabilitate these young people and help them on to a better pathway, rather than labelling them\u201D; if not, is she taking an approach that will have \u201Cunnecessarily punitive impacts\u201D on young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00220adbf39617bb410bb83ee8ad0af38127\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220adbf39617bb410bb83ee8ad0af38127\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Justice)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Children: I wish to say that I actually do agree that it\u2019s important that we have an approach that helps to rehabilitate these young people and help them on a better pathway. That is exactly what the Young Serious Offender declaration and military-style academies will do. It will learn from previous initiatives, and it will ensure that young people who may have gone a bit off the rails are actually given the support and the encouragement and, frankly, the discipline to allow them to become positive contributing citizens again in our country for their benefit and the benefit of all. In answer to the second part of the question, that there will be unnecessarily punitive impacts, well, no, I don\u2019t agree with that, but what I do sense from the member\u2019s question is that they still believe we should live in a world where no action has any consequence. Well, I\u2019m sorry but if you\u2019re a young person that creates a serious offence\u2014such as a ram raid, such as an assault, such as we saw in Papatoetoe over the weekend\u2014well, I\u2019m sorry but there are consequences. One of the consequences might be that somebody labels you as a \u201CYoung Serious Offender\u201D because that\u2019s what you are. If the Opposition can\u2019t understand actions and consequences, then no wonder we have had such a crime wave in the last six years under their leadership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228df5910daf5547958ee9534ed4faf283\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s view on her approach to youth justice that \u201CI don\u2019t care what you say about whether it does or doesn\u2019t work.\u201D, and, if so, is that why she is proceeding with an approach which domestic and international evidence shows does not work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa31ac1c2044539b4e39b66c08a04d6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, first of all, on behalf of the Minister for Children, I find that the Prime Minister has enormous wisdom and sometimes it comes out more fully when he is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211fbd3bf92fa46dd90cbdbd3b485f4da\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve already made a speech. Just answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e938ef5d31e4cd3b1a59c546f2022d9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226913f9478df14c9cb95c46cd24a61eaa\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve already made a speech. Just answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d619f9527e49b4b1a7963fa958ffe7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I tell you what: that member is a long way from ever answering a question in this House. You know, he\u2019d be more likely to be answering his questions from up a tree. The simple fact is that we have an approach here which is learning from previous experience. For example, the previous approach: actually, the evidence was that when students\u2014when offenders, sorry\u2014were in residence, actually, they had their\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022103a43e213c949ba994012ff7f670013\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: They are students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022183dea91f6134b1c98f4fe44059bcc91\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they\u2019re often students that aren\u2019t attending school, and that\u2019s one of the problems that we\u2019ve inherited from the previous Government. But the evidence is that, actually, during the previous programme from 2010 to 2016, actually the offenders did improve while in residence. It was taking them back to the community where often things went wrong and they ended up reoffending. That\u2019s why the pilot of the new programme will have three months out of 12 in residence and focus for the subsequent nine months on proper wraparound support and rehabilitation. I believe that that will work. But if you\u2019d like to see evidence of what doesn\u2019t work: the previous six years, which led to a crime wave so bad even some MPs were getting in on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d09e4d3a92a44d2aa474c69d1c9ad1b7\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she rejecting official advice that military-style activities do not work to reduce offending, and going ahead with her political experiment that will only cause more harm to young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022538b8d6c88a24db8894ec4cedaf14c0f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I completely reject the assertion in the member\u2019s question. If she wants to talk about a political experiment, how\u2019s this? Six years of thinking, \u201CIf only we\u2019re kind to criminals, they\u2019ll start being kind back if we just wait long enough.\u201D That was a political experiment undertaken by that Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0f2523ce22f4e8587b935ed408ea2f6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That was simply an attack on the previous Government. It had no substance; it didn\u2019t refer to any concrete policies; it was just a swipe. It\u2019s usual David Seymour behaviour, but at that point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fba87b42ed1c41b588ef6acee8d40ea6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on. Points of order are heard in silence, whether you like them or not. So the member can start his point of order again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc2930bffb5480fa403b2da2d8d101a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Those statements by the member were simply a list of allegations about the previous Government that didn\u2019t refer to any previous policies or facts and were entirely out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b66056d698714bfab8e97ad7970969c7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I totally disagree with you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f4e7233808042ccba1f77d4d5aaeb97\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267edce94e8f446e4b7c82363f812f789\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019m ruling. I disagree with you because of the nature of the question that was asked. David Seymour\u2014unless he\u2019s finished, which would be quite good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229da72c0e6762484a9fe693247cb6a54f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I could always give you a bit more. Would you like\u2014no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f13bb295d4e140b89807f4d58fde2605\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Has he visited the stores and shops and spoken to the owners, victims of youth crime, like I have, and has he heard the repeated chorus that we\u2019ve heard from many of them, \u201CThere are just no consequences for these young kids, who have caused me and my family enormous cost\u201D, and does he not agree that there is a basic requirement to have real consequences for these young offenders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022989abf8b72d74e86828af19d8d88c68d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on behalf of the Minister for Children, I have observed Karen Chhour as one of the hardest-working Ministers, who gets around the country, goes and talks to the people that her ministry is responsible for, goes to the facilities, finds out what is wrong, and fixes it in a practical way. And, yes, she also, I am sure, visits and has many occasions to talk to the people who are the victims of crime, and that, among many strands of her rich and authentic life experience\u2014which drives the left mad, might I add\u2014is her motivation to make a difference in this Government and this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcfbcfae0bd84463b8abac29ef174ae5\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept advice from experts that when traumatised young people are subjected to harsh discipline in bootcamps, they are likely to associate their treatment with the abuse caused to them in the past, causing further anxiety and stress?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e9ff9418f9941f895e62c80d5bb097e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, there\u2019s some difficulty because the member seems to have a sort of paint-by-numbers, cartoonish approach to characterising the Government\u2019s policy. What she is describing is not what this Government is putting in place. We are putting in place a pilot programme that will take the most serious offenders\u2014those who have done assaults, who have done ram raids, between the ages of 14 and 17; those who go and hit people with hammers in their retail stores\u2014and actually put them in a place where they get structure and discipline and have an opportunity to build self-esteem by making a real difference in their own lives. In order to do this, you need something called \u201Cvalues\u201D\u2014the idea that each person is equal in their dignity and able to make a positive difference, given the structure and the opportunity. That\u2019s what they\u2019ll be getting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226222c5358c85425586e8defbeb080060\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: To what extent is a bootcamp programme that is going to involve just 10 young people at a cost that would never be scaled a genuine and serious solution to a problem, or is it just politicking with young people\u2019s lives for the sake of appearing to be tough on crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022297344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022269166ab086c445b9891747956fa1d89\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Wow, look, I think\u2014it\u2019s like a clich\u00E9 machine that\u2019s taken the pseudoephedrine! This is a very serious matter. Youth crime has got out of control over the last six years. Lacking the values to give young people structure and discipline, having nowhere to take them\u2014having them climb up on the roof and having to be bribed down with KFC actually made a mockery of the values that underpin this country. Now we have a Government that is putting approximately $5 million into a pilot, and, yes, the pilot will cost a lot more than the programme. That\u2019s because we\u2019re learning, because we\u2019re collecting evidence and data about how to do better for a very serious problem, including for those students. So my advice to the member is to stop the paint-by-numbers clich\u00E9 machine and pay attention to the detail of what\u2019s actually being proposed, not what sounds good to her Wellington mates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a9ac309d07944269e800d024a087d49\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: If the point is to do what works, why not invest in a pilot programme that was evidence-led, not retrofitted to a failed bootcamp model?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f22f783aa6a46508128f08f737e2d1e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Once again, the member has a caricature of what the Government is doing which is simply untrue. This is a programme that will take young serious offenders and put them in a place where they get structure and discipline and opportunity to build self-esteem. That is three of the 12 months of the programme. The remaining nine months are outside of that facility, in the community, being rehabilitated, learning to live as good, honest citizens again\u2014totally different from the caricature that the member has in her mind. And I can only say to her one more time: try focusing on what the Government is actually doing, not the caricature she\u2019s built in her mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221580c57b5d7249698fddd65b9cb97f53\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Save it for the ACT Party conference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022147697721e754c57b413a5b7a861344b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that, Carmel Sepuloni; that\u2019s most useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002270faa77a62aa44c89dc81606af26da4d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfee4a6235da45bf87d7785e54ee9554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfee4a6235da45bf87d7785e54ee9554\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent announcements has Police made about deployments in our city centres?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00225ead0a1fac864da48edd6e9aec7ad8cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ead0a1fac864da48edd6e9aec7ad8cb\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, Police announced the establishment of community beat teams in major cities across New Zealand, as well as Operation Safer Streets in Auckland to target antisocial behaviour and crime in the CBD. From 1 July, 21 additional staff will be joining the beat team in Auckland CBD, with the\u00A0intent to move to a 24/7 beat patrol model. This is part of the wider community beat teams deployment, over two years, of 63 staff to Auckland, 17 to Wellington, and 10 to Christchurch, to provide the public with reassurance and to deter and disrupt antisocial behaviour and retail crime. Sunday\u2019s announcement, alongside the announcement of the National Gang Unit and district gang disruption units, builds upon the work Police is doing to deliver on my letter of expectations and, more broadly, this Government\u2019s plan to restore law and order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e0441da53a4fafadacf0860e2832dd\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he make police being highly visible in communities one of his expectations of the Police Commissioner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4afd2cd2e14491a3f4b158f4b34a0e\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I talk regularly with retail shop owners, business owners, and the public, and have had dozens of public meetings around the country, both as Minister and before. The number one piece of feedback\u2014and I completely agree with it\u2014is that the public have not in recent years had a sense that police are present in their communities. As police Minister, my focus is on ensuring that police are getting back out on the beat, providing reassurance, and deterring offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3462b235bf54c1cb6b467e9ee777274\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Queens Arcade property manager, who believes that the announcement will help bring down crime in the Auckland CBD?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216a3772d86e44736ad387626f61d5fe2\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do. I\u2019m confident that having police highly visible in the CBD as part of Operation Safer Streets will ensure that the public get a sense that\u00A0police are keeping them safe, and will give offenders a sense that their activity will not be tolerated. While it\u2019s heartening to see that Police are saying crime in the central city is\u00A0starting to trend in the right direction, it is still at an unacceptable level and the public are still exposed to it and feel unsafe. This Government is focused on clamping down on crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022055085980d00488c902dcc8de75a8e59\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Wellington Chamber of Commerce chief executive that it is \u201Csurprising what [these] kind[s] of interventions can do.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022921ae2bb3de645bf98249d3dc994cea9\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with what he says. Because of my own experience, I\u2019ve seen the positive effect of highly visible beat constables in their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fa0fb1856644720ab595577802410c1\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Why does Christchurch have to wait two years for just 10 additional beat constables?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022082bdaea4cf84c3792c6416975341c94\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Christchurch haven\u2019t had to wait for constables being more visible in their communities, because there\u2019s changes taking place already. As part of the established beat teams, there\u2019s going to be an additional 10 dedicated police constables that will be put into Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f524943988484fafa3b9d59b1918b39d\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was: why does Christchurch have to wait two years for just 10 more police officers? I got that they are waiting for two years, but he didn\u2019t explain the reason behind that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f71d16a21174c7999b36d1c235a93f5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014think about the whole question that was asked. The Minister\u2019s opening statement was that they don\u2019t have to wait two years. So you can\u2019t be more definitive than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b93d7dde32c246408d3d04b8dd508970\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220910e941a4b745f598265fab18f0baca\u0022\u003EGrounding of Aratere Ferry\u2014Government Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00221bb4992c88124153b4cbd32130fdd750\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bb4992c88124153b4cbd32130fdd750\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of an urgent item.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe all know that the Interislander known as the Aratere ran aground just out of Picton on Friday evening with 47 people aboard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b27895073ca440da49f293940af18db\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just interrupt the member, please. Those who are leaving the House, do so quietly and without conversation on the way through. The member\u2019s time will start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226494506819e5429dbce8756284ff7243\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Interislander that we all know as the Aratere ran aground just out of Picton on Friday evening with 47 people aboard, and that was a very distressing sight for all of us to see and to take note of what occurred over the coming hours. The primary focus, of course, at that time was on the safety and on the wellbeing of everyone who was on board. I want to acknowledge the efforts that were made to ensure that those who were on board were safe throughout the incident\u2014particularly those who were seen as the first responders, the Maritime Union of New Zealand and other local MPs, including my colleague Rachel Boyack, who was there as well. There will be, no doubt, many lines of inquiry into what went wrong, and they will work through their processes for sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat I can say is that I\u2019m sure all members of this House will know that it is extremely fortunate that we are not here this afternoon referring to an incident that had an outcome that would be much more devastating, much more dire, because it could have. If that vessel had made its way out of the location where it was into the Tory Channel or, indeed, into the Cook Strait proper, the outcome could have been one of devastation. Those are notorious water bodies, and everyone knows that. It is only luck that this breakdown was not more serious. It ran aground in relatively safe, calm waters. As we know, the Cook Strait ferries are massive machines. They are huge vessels often actually carrying hundreds of passengers and people, and they travel that expanse of water with swells and winds, and a malfunction in the wrong place could be nothing short of fatal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis latest incident not only further enforces the need for a reliable and sustainable Cook Strait ferry option but also the need for ferries that are built to last. The current Government-owned Interislander ferries, that are owned by the State-owned enterprise KiwiRail, are either at or past the end of their lives. They are limping along, and the cost of keeping them in a seaworthy state is large, and that continues by the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI think, if there was a further disaster, you wouldn\u2019t need much more of an inquiry to determine perhaps what went wrong, and Government Ministers need to take responsibility in this space. They are the ones who run KiwiRail, in terms of setting the priorities and providing the financial envelope for them to function, and they need to make sure that they are taking responsibility for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere were, last week, questions in the Transport and Infrastructure Committee that were put to Simeon Brown as the Minister of Transport around the nature of the ferry fleet. My colleague Arena Williams and I put very squarely to Minister Brown these questions. Now, this grounding came the very day after those questions were put to the Government to respond. Minister Brown pushed back on concerns that we raised relating to the need for an immediate replacement and that costs would actually continue to grow beyond the $551 million that the former Government was able to lock in as a suitable replacement. Not only that but also the increasing nature of maintenance costs that some have established could be in the region of $65 million a year from next year. The Minister did not believe that there was a lot of substance to that, and just 24 hours after those questions, we have this unfortunate situation where we still have no options in terms of what the replacement might look like moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOf course, National have a habit of doing this. They have a habit of, effectively, switching out the lights and keeping people in the dark, and they simply need to front up to the communities of interest all around Aotearoa New Zealand to give certainty around what the future ferry options look like for the Cook Strait. We do not have time to continue to dilly-dally around and to wait for them to actually get their ducks in a row and to share with the community and to share with this House what their options will be. Nicola Willis, Simeon Brown, and Paul Goldsmith have placed us in this exact uncertainty that we find ourselves in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe solution to all of this was the ferries related to iReX, a brand-new set of ferries that were being built\u2014actually were starting to be constructed by the Korean Hyundai Mipo Dockyard back in 2021, when this was commissioned. They were to be delivered in February 2026, to avoid the business summer season. Now, the finance Minister, at the end of last year, indicated that she would simply cancel the contract, and she has been dragging her heels for the last six months while this Government has tried to sort themselves out about what the replacement option will be. One thing I will say is if the Government can prioritise nearly $3 billion in tax cuts for landlords, they can prioritise a resilient, safe, and reliable ferry service between the North and South Islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe are being seen as the laughing stock in maritime circles, not just here in New Zealand but all around the world. All one needs to do is to look at the imagery and the photos of that 24-hour period to indicate why it is that New Zealand is seen as the laughing stock, where we are not taking any action in this particular space. What is really important is that the Government seems to like to talk about cost overruns and blowouts and all of these sorts of things. The situation is this: what occurred on Friday evening was in the context of having no plan B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad8297d6fa07465ba28a9c2cb4f131ef\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: No plan B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fc88a70bde94c98ab992f1318f5bfa2\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: No plan B. We are still waiting to hear what their plan is going to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210cdd49194874b5d9fc865e19d8d14a9\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Plan C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2c6d3a05e243eaa2e815a5e5069d6d\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: So what then did\u2014plan C. Actually, I think Kiwis wouldn\u2019t mind plan D at this rate. I know that Nicola Willis says she does not want to have a Ferrari. OK. She said she prefers a Toyota Corolla. All right. I think people, at this stage, would settle for a Mini. They would settle for a Suzuki Swift. They would settle for a replacement that is going to meet the needs of communities to connect the two islands of Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EPrior to the election, there had been a lot of work that was going on in this space. There had been work with KiwiRail on a more suitable and sustainable solution. That was then over to the Government to pick up that conversation and to pull together a plan. What they have done is they have made cancellation the priority, although we actually heard in question time today that cancellation may actually not have been actioned. We hear repudiation is where things are at, at the moment. The Government have said that, actually, it is cancelled, but I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m none the wiser as to whether or not the contract has actually been cancelled, and it\u2019s over to the Government to share with us whether that is the case or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe also hear that it is possible that the reputation of New Zealand in being able to secure future contracts in terms of ship builds could be compromised. It could be. I don\u2019t know, but it could be. All we need to do is think about that. When you are engaging with a partner as a form of business and someone wants to withdraw from a transaction that has been locked in back in 2021, then surely there must be some reputational risk to New Zealand as a result of that. But this is also a financial envelope that, just for the ferry build itself, is continuing to grow\u2014the lock-in of $551 million for the ferry build itself. We don\u2019t know the full wind-down costs of that particular exercise. It could be $200 million; it could be $300 million. We don\u2019t know what the actual break penalty clause is as a result of cancelling these two ferries. It could be $100 million; it could be $200 million. That is on top of the wind-down costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThen, of course, we have the shipyards that may still very well be building these ships all the way through to completion, because they started the build when the Government virtually signalled that they were going to cancel the build. Then if they sell them, there is an opportunity that the cost would actually be, over that three-year period, significantly higher. So possibly three to four times higher as a build. So already the financial cost that is being drawn as a relation to this is probably much significantly higher than the $551\u00A0million just for the build itself, because the ferries, of course, were just a small component of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt is unfortunate that there is no certainty for New Zealanders and for Kiwis around what a resilient service will look like between the North and South Islands. We continue to wait while this Government drags its heels. I thought, actually, maybe yesterday that we would have heard something, the Cabinet had come together and maybe had a chat and may have had a chance to actually think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d95c41c2f33447dd8c4ed191b35235ad\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022503982ac0aa042e89412bfad36c436a7\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: You know what, where is the urgency? Well, there does not seem to be urgency from this Government in terms of providing a safe, secure, resilient, and sustainable connection for the future. We cannot wait to 2029 as Nicola Willis has said. She seems to think that it\u2019s all right; it\u2019s only a few years. Well, a few years are a few years far too late. We had a plan. We were prepared to deliver a safe, reliable, and sustainable option. This is a Government that is not prepared to do that, and despite the activities and actions of the last week or so, they continue to be no further down the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2bd7c02d8c246e385de9bc0ee721b5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2bd7c02d8c246e385de9bc0ee721b5e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to respond in this debate. As is well known, on Friday, 21 June, the Aratere ran aground at 9.56 p.m. just outside of Picton, with a total of 47 aboard: 39 crew and eight passengers. It is a relief to everyone that there was no one injured during this incident, and as it was a freight sailing, the usual travelling public were not aboard and not impacted by this event. I also want to acknowledge the swift action from the emergency response agencies to ensure that those aboard were safe, and the actions which led to the successful refloating of the vessel late on the evening of 22 June, the following day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe operation to refloat Aratere on Saturday night was successful and the vessel is now berthed in Picton. Now the ship has been safely refloated, investigations can begin into the incident and how KiwiRail can ensure that this does not happen again. There are three investigations under way at this stage. KiwiRail is undertaking its own internal investigation. Maritime New Zealand, as the regulator, is undertaking an investigation. This investigation may result in administrative action or prosecution in regard to the issues. The Transport Accident Investigation Commission will also be undertaking an independent safety investigation. This investigation will determine the circumstances and causes of accidents and incidents with a view of avoiding similar occurrences in the future, rather than to ascribe blame to any person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe debate from the other side of the House is trying to put this perspective forward\u2014that the incident that took place on Friday night would have all been fixed if iReX hadn\u2019t been cancelled. Well that is, quite frankly, completely untrue\u2014completely untrue\u2014and the point that they\u2019re trying to make is completely untrue. The reality is this is an issue that KiwiRail, as the owners and operators of those ferries, must take responsibility for. They are responsible for the maintenance of their ferries, and the reality is, over the last number of years, when the last Government was in charge, there was so much focus on the big shiny new ferries, they lost sight of the focus on actually maintaining what they already had\u2014they lost sight of what they already had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo the focus was on the new thing\u2014the new berths, the new flashy big ferries that the last Government signed up to, and the billions of dollars they were planning to spend\u2014and they lost sight of the fact that their number one job is to keep New Zealanders safe going across the Cook Strait on those ferries. We\u2019ve seen incident after incident in that regard where the safety of New Zealanders has been put at risk by KiwiRail and by Interislander when that is their number one job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, on Friday night, the latest incident took place in relation to what we saw on the Cook Strait. As the member said earlier, we are grateful that it took place in the circumstances that it did and that no one\u2019s life was lost. But what this highlights, and what the shareholding Ministers for the State-owned enterprise KiwiRail have made very, very clear, is that this Government\u2019s expectation of KiwiRail is that the maintenance and the resilience and the safety of their existing ferries must be the number one priority for the board of KiwiRail\u2014that must be the number one priority for the board of KiwiRail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThose expectations have been made abundantly clear by the shareholding Ministers\u2014the Hon Paul Goldsmith and the Hon Nicola Willis\u2014to KiwiRail in terms of their expectations, and the concerns that they have made has led to action being taken by KiwiRail in relation to the maintenance of those ferries. But the reality is not enough has been done. There has been work done by KiwiRail in relation to getting independent ferry safety experts in to actually ensure that they are undertaking full safety operations of those ferries, but there is more work that needs to be done. The reality is that, regardless of the iReX decision, these ferries have to run for at least another two years, and so that work is critically, critically important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWhen I was in Picton on Saturday, we discussed these issues, and the Transport Accident Investigation Commission made this point, which I think is a very important point. They made the point in the meeting that there are a large number of ships of this age which operate around the world and which operate safely. So that is the point that needs to be debated here today. It is the need for KiwiRail and Interislander to ensure the safety and operation of those services. The reality is that this does also raise questions in relation to\u00A0the\u00A0future. The member opposite\u2014Tangi Utikere\u2014tried to make the point that \u201CWell, the ferries were only going to cost $550 million.\u201D Well, the iReX project was blown out to over $3 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe reality is that when it started, the project was worth $750 million. Now, that sounds perfectly reasonable. The analogy you could use is buying a house and land package, and you\u2019ve signed the contract for $750,000. Well, you come back five years later and, whilst the house is still only worth $550,000, the land\u2019s gone up to $2.25 million, and suddenly it\u2019s worth $3 million. No one would continue to be signed up with that type of deal, but that is exactly what the last Government let happen. The landside, port-side infrastructure went from being around $200 million to being over $2.2 billion as part of that particular project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI have a letter here which the former finance Minister Hon Grant Robertson sent to KiwiRail on 19 September 2023, saying, \u201CWe note that KiwiRail under-scoped the landside infrastructure in 2021, meaning the decision to procure two large rail-enabled ships at the time was premature. To date, we are yet to see a satisfactory explanation for why this was the case.\u201D So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5481a2aaa6c4404b231206344fe3aaf\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: Who was the Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201f937aa6b014a7a81eed835064d3be0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government at the time was the Labour Government. It was making the point which we were then shown when we became Government, which is that the cost of the landside infrastructure, which was being foisted on to the Crown, was being driven because of the fact that it was under-scoped due to the size of the ferries and also due to the fact that they were rail-enabled, leading to significant cost escalations on the port-side infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ETough decisions did have to be made when we came into Government. In fact, the time line that was released by the Minister of Finance when the decision was made showed that between early November 2023\u2014before the Government had been formed, but we were briefed during the negotiation phase. The incoming Government was informed of the most recent cost escalation in early November 2023, and that it would be $2.6 billion. When we became Government, we were advised it was $3 billion. In less than a month, the cost had blown out by over $400 million\u2014over $400 million. It would be, frankly, irresponsible to have continued with that project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to having a safe and resilient Cook Strait. We are committed to new ferries. The Minister of Finance and the Minister for State Owned Enterprises have a ministerial advisory group which has, just as of last week, provided a report with further advice on how we can assure the safety and resilience of the Cook Strait. There are options that will be considered. Decisions will be made in an affordable and cost-effective manner to ensure the resilience of this critically important part of our supply chain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThose are decisions which we will make in the appropriate time to make sure that we make those appropriate decisions, and we won\u2019t make the mistakes the last Government made where they let this project go from being $750 million to over $3 billion and counting, and they refuse to take responsibility and accountability over those things. We will make the tough decisions on this side of the House, and we will ensure the resilience of the Cook Strait. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022311096eaa7d647c2ad6aff91839a998a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022311096eaa7d647c2ad6aff91839a998a\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I think, just there, members of the New Zealand public have seen a shining example of why it is that we have an approximate $200 billion infrastructure deficit in this country. We constantly see the chopping and changing of legacy parties in charge, binning projects that the other one did not like, with no meaningful plan on the horizon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI just here want to refer to a document from 2020, and I want to quote from it, if I can. It says\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThis Government is committed to restoring rail to its rightful place in New Zealand. Bigger, better ships, with new technology are yet another step on that journey \u2026 These will be the first brand-new purpose built ferries New Zealand has had in over 25 years. Of the current ships, only the Aratere is rail-enabled, and an unwillingness from previous governments to invest properly in New Zealand\u2019s rail infrastructure has meant the Aratere has had a number of costly technical and mechanical issues. It is vital that we act now to ensure our Main Trunk Line between the North and South Islands is resilient and well-provisioned [into] the future\u201D. That is, of course, a quote from the Rt Hon Winston Peters, who then was acting in his capacity as Deputy Prime Minister, in a press release from 27 May 2020 titled \u201CGovernment investment supports the acquisition of new Interislander ferries\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, how times have changed, because what we\u2019ve just heard there from one of the shareholding Ministers for KiwiRail, one of our State-owned enterprises, is that despite all of this bluster and approximately 10 minutes in a speech, we have no meaningful plans whatsoever for what is to happen in 2026 and beyond. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ELook, the Green Party can absolutely agree with the point from the Minister, as actually was reflected in this press release from the former Deputy Prime Minister and the now new Deputy Prime Minister or co-Deputy Prime Minister, that these are not new problems. We have known for a really long time that our ferry infrastructure, the Interislander ferries, need an upgrade. They need proper and meaningful investment. That is why the lead times exist on these kinds of investments. It is not a new problem and these investments could be requisitely made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis Government likes to talk a lot about how they are, for some reason, great financial managers. Let\u2019s dig into the detail on that specifically for this problem, which so well is an emblem of a lot of these issues that we have with the infrastructural deficit in this country. You\u2019d tend to say that when you are a good financial manager that you invest early in an issue to stop it escalating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWell, as we already know, based on the hearings that other speakers have alluded to, we have already spent $424 million on this iReX project, yet we are now also not all too transparent from this Government when it comes to the cost of the cancellation fees. Yet, as I understand it, on Breakfast television this morning, the Minister was not rebutting a figure in the arena of $300 million on the cancellation of that. We also, of course, have the cost of refloating the ferries every time they run aground because, as we\u2019ve seen, this is not a new problem, and it is likely to continue out into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe Government also passed up the opportunity to futureproof the fleet. We had a guarantee of delivery in 2026, but now we are looking at an approximate at least 40\u00A0percent increase in inflation in the cost of purchasing those new ships. On top of that, we\u2019ve also passed up the opportunity to double capacity not only for passengers but also for freight. We also have passed up the opportunity to reduce carbon emissions of that fleet by 40 percent and to accommodate alternative fuel sources as they develop, not to mention a 100-year lifespan for both of the ports, and to get greater rail capacity, something that New Zealand First used to be proud of and campaign for, to get trucks off the road, and ultimately not only to reduce those carbon emissions but to reduce congestion, not least for rural Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe Minister Simeon Brown just before was saying that he has expectations that the fleet keeps up with maintenance. I\u2019m sure that\u2019s something that actually everybody in this House would fundamentally agree with\u2014I didn\u2019t see any disagreement whatsoever on that basis\u2014but the question for the Minister and for Government members is to show us the money, to show us the plan and the contribution, because right now we are left with far more questions than we have answers to as to what occurs in 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThat bill is going to continue to climb, not only because, based on the fact that I\u2019ve just well canvassed that this is not a new problem, we are likely to see more groundings of these ships; we are likely to see more issues eventuate; and we also are going to continue to see price inflation for the purchasing of these new ships. To that effect, I think it also needs to be noted that as far as we\u2019re aware, there are only about 20 of these ships in the world, none of which are currently in action\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220297c4cd943b4ce58d9b85fb373df2a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220297c4cd943b4ce58d9b85fb373df2a7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The member\u2019s time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022cea581a2c62548a882c49d6d1c99c818\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cea581a2c62548a882c49d6d1c99c818\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. What we saw occur with the Aratere on Friday night was extremely concerning. It was a great relief, however, that there was no loss of life and everyone on board the ship was able to get off safely. But this actually does raise some serious concerns about KiwiRail and KiwiRail\u2019s mismanagement. In ACT\u2019s view, KiwiRail\u2019s 100 percent Government ownership has been a contributing factor to the general mismanagement of the Cook Strait ferry service in recent years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EACT\u2019s policy is to add KiwiRail to the mixed-ownership model. By selling 49 percent of the Government\u2019s shares, this would ensure KiwiRail has the accountability and flexibility needed to keep the ferry service running properly\u2014100 percent Government ownership means KiwiRail isn\u2019t subject to commercial accountability; KiwiRail\u2019s investment decisions are dominated by politics rather than commercial realities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ERight now, KiwiRail\u2019s commercial performance is monitored by a small, overworked team at Treasury. In Budget 2024, the budget for Crown company monitoring\u2014that\u2019s all Crown companies; not just State-owned enterprises (SOEs)\u2014was roughly $5 million, whereas the net asset value of SOEs alone was roughly $40 billion. That\u2019s a management fee of 0.1 percent. Even the cheapest private equity funds charge around 1 percent plus performance fees. Either the Government is getting a bargain of the century or many taxpayer assets are being seriously under-managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EBy contrast, the partially owned electricity companies and Air New Zealand have dozens of analysts from private sector investment funds and stockbrokers poring over their quarterly returns and other performance data. Those financial companies often have their own skin in the game, as shareholders and would-be shareholders. Their analysts can ask executives questions, and when they are truly dissatisfied with their performance, they can send a clear signal by selling their shares or advising their clients to do so. The stock price gives a signal to executives as to whether the market supports their business plan. That means things like maintenance schedules, capital investment programmes are rigorously monitored.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EWith all the will in the world, the Public Service has neither the incentive nor the means to subject their portfolio companies to such scrutiny. Moreover, the SOE Act, quite properly, prevents Ministers from getting directly involved themselves. The investment statement prepared by Treasury in 2022 helps confirm this. The Government stake in listed companies significantly outperformed their cost of capital, whereas Government stakes in unlisted companies underperformed. That\u2019s even with the then COVID-afflicted Air New Zealand being counted amongst the listed companies. That means the Government has lost taxpayers\u2019 money by leaving it in these unlisted companies, relative to the equivalent risk investments elsewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EA more closely monitored KiwiRail may well have made fewer disastrous investments and maintenance choices. In addition to better accountability, partially private ownership would have given KiwiRail more flexibility to make decisions based on economics rather than politics. When the mixed-ownership or private companies need more capital\u2014like KiwiRail has asked for with the ferry programme\u2014they prove the case not to the Cabinet but to private investors. That means that access to capital is determined by the rates of return on offer rather than the Government\u2019s political or fiscal position. That makes it easier for good projects to go forward and bad projects to be stopped. Private investors have no incentive to throw good money after bad simply to avoid embarrassment. Private investors can move quickly when needed, rather than forestalling a decision for political convenience, as the previous finance Minister seems to have done. The involvement of private investors would have allowed for alternative financing of the ferry programme to be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EPrivate and partially private transport companies are not immune from accidents, but they do tend to make fewer white elephant investments like iReX that delay and distract from the real solutions to ageing machinery. A 49 percent privatised KiwiRail would be more accountable, more flexible, and possibly better capitalised. That would make it less likely for a comedy of errors, like this ferry debacle has been, to occur. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4040b25a3264eaa8bd84fbe02a40950\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4040b25a3264eaa8bd84fbe02a40950\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Speaker. Look, we all agree that the Cook Strait crossing is an essential part of New Zealand\u2019s transport infrastructure, and we all know it\u2019s a problem, which is why we\u2019re having the debate that we\u2019re having at the moment. However, Tangi Utikere opened this debate by, essentially, stating that plan A is still the right plan, is still a good plan\u2014two large ferries. I\u2019ll come back to that in just a moment. But I say to him and to the Opposition: let\u2019s stop playing politics with this; let\u2019s work together to try and find the solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EPlan A was fundamentally flawed. We know that the cost of iReX project had blown out enormously. I would take that as an illustration that what we\u2019ve got to stop doing is saying, \u201CWe think that a project is going to cost\u201D\u2014in this case\u2014\u201C$750 million.\u201D before we\u2019ve done any of the design assessment, before we\u2019ve done any of the geotechnical work, and before we have actually any real idea of what it\u2019s really going to cost. But, no, we go and say, \u201CIt\u2019s going to cost $750 million.\u201D, and then, a few years later, it turns out to be \u201CIt\u2019s $3 billion and counting.\u201D So the initial thing we should do with all of these projects is to be putting money aside to look at options, to look at feasibility, to look at geotech\u2014to look at all those things\u2014and then we\u2019ve got some vague idea of what the cost is going to be. But that\u2019s not what happened in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe Opposition has told us that the ferry deal was a very good one. Actually, the ferry deal was a good one. It was a good one because it was done during COVID, it was done at a time when ship builders didn\u2019t have a lot of market, but the problem was that this is a package. It\u2019s not just a ferry; it is also a ferry and all the land-based infrastructure. We\u2019ve already heard from the Minister Simeon Brown there that the cost, effectively, of the land-based infrastructure exploded not by a factor of one, but a factor of 10 times\u201410 times more expensive. You can\u2019t have the ferries without the land-based infrastructure as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo, Tangi Utikere, we had a plan, but the problem is that the plan was deeply flawed.\u00A0Even\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c415146cf0e643b5bf0dea4f04b27ec5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Your plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022630ac46621264fcf886df9899f585232\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the then Minister of Finance Grant Robertson knew that it was a flawed plan. I don\u2019t think that he signed off on it, did he, Mr Webb? He didn\u2019t sign off on it either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe big problem here was that KiwiRail, I think, were exceedingly arrogant. I think that what, basically, they assumed is that everybody was going to jump to their tune. That was their assumption, and I\u2019m going to come to some illustrations on that. They ordered the ferries before they had anywhere to put them\u2014they ordered the ferries before they had anywhere to put them. I can remember, at the time when that was news, thinking that is extraordinarily brave\u2014extraordinarily brave\u2014to the point of being reckless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe other piece of information that we\u2019ve had more latterly is that the port of Marlborough harbour master hadn\u2019t even given approval\u2014in fact, I don\u2019t think, at that point, he\u2019d even been asked to give approval\u2014for whether these larger ferries would be able to operate in Tory Channel. He gave the indication that, in fact, he wasn\u2019t going to give that approval. So an extraordinary piece of work from KiwiRail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s talk about the port infrastructure at either end. At both ends, they are very difficult construction environments\u2014at the Wellington end, particularly the seismic and sea-level rise. So look at this, an overall package: roughly one-sixth of the package is for the ferries; one-sixth is for the port of Marlborough end; and a whopping four-sixths\u2014two-thirds of it\u2014is for the port of Wellington end. That reflects the complexity of that end. It was $3 billion and counting. So either the incoming Government wrote a blank cheque and said, \u201CLook, just keep going. However much it\u2019s going to cost, keep going.\u201D\u2014and we know the business case for that would have been appalling\u2014or push pause and think about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThose of us who are members of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee would recall that KiwiRail appeared before us in February as part of their annual review, and both the chair and the CEO made the point that they had only come to the company in 2022. When they came to the company, they said, actually, they were alarmed at what they saw, and they alerted the then Minister of Finance to their concerns. So it\u2019s not as though the new administration of KiwiRail was saying this was all beer and Skittles; they had real concerns. What I saw KiwiRail having done is wasting years and years of time that should have been used constructively to deliver an outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s take the Wellington end. They wanted to bring large, new ferries into the inner harbour of Wellington, didn\u2019t mind about any other users; no mind about the impact on CentrePort\u2019s business\u2014they were stuck right in the middle of CentrePort; they were, effectively, destroying the business\u2014and no mind about the impact on the road network from having road and rail services at a new location. They didn\u2019t mind about any of that; they just assumed that everybody was going to jump to their tune. They did exactly the same thing at the other end with the port of Marlborough, as well, to the extent that the port of Marlborough said, \u201CYours. Your project. You work it out.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo we have a fundamental problem here. It\u2019s a problem that we need to work together on. I\u2019m really looking forward to seeing the outcome of the ministerial working group. That is the basis on which we should be moving forward from this. Anything else, at this stage, is speculation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00228bde09ddbf544989977aef9d18593c85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bde09ddbf544989977aef9d18593c85\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I move to the next speaker, just for the awareness of the House, if a party does not take their allocated call and there is no indication that they have transferred it, any other member who has not yet spoken may seek that call at the end of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022921037f1a5b14df9bf2058ebf88af22e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022921037f1a5b14df9bf2058ebf88af22e\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E This knee-jerk, political point-scoring, \u201Cshoot from the hip\u201D Government has the chutzpah to come down to this House and give the Labour members a lecture on working together. This Government, who got out in front of the cameras at their first opportunity and said, \u201CLook at us\u2014we\u2019re so cool. We\u2019re going to get these chief executives who have been running up the costs by cancelling the contract.\u201D They\u2019re cancelling a contract which that member Andy Foster just told this House was a good deal: $551 million for ferries, which will enable a resilient crossing of the Cook Strait\u2014a resilient crossing of the Cook Strait that that Minister of Transport, who spoke earlier in this debate, came to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on Thursday and promised that committee in his answers. Further, the Prime Minister stood in front of cameras on Monday and promised New Zealanders a resilient crossing of the Cook Strait because it is nationally significant infrastructure, not only to the South Island but to all New Zealanders who rely on that for the economic benefits it gives to everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is such an important piece of infrastructure investment in the hands of a Government that does not believe it is responsible for it\u2014a Government that will stand here and kick the KiwiRail board. Those members will say they are reckless, will say that they are exceedingly arrogant, and will do everything that it can to undermine the public\u2019s trust in a State-owned enterprise and to push responsibility as far as they can away from this Cabinet, which is making decisions to undermine that resilient crossing that they are\u00A0promising New Zealanders out one side of their mouth and undermining in the Cabinet room.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe know, and we have confirmed today\u2014not only the Minister for State Owned Enterprises but the Minister of Transport have told this House that they have had the advice back from their ministerial advisory group, that they have had a discussion about it around the Cabinet table, and that they know what the recommendations of that ministerial advisory group are. They actually have a solution in their heads. They are sitting through this debate, refusing to tell New Zealanders how we will have a resilient Cook Strait connection, and are instead blaming the KiwiRail board, saying that they need\u00A0to prioritise safety. Well, the KiwiRail board have been asking for an upgrade of their infrastructure, which is causing a lack of safety to the people who they provide this\u00A0business for, and they have a Cabinet here who haven\u2019t backed them. They have a Cabinet here who are pushing responsibility away for those infrastructure investments and have no plan B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhen Andy Foster comes to this House and he says, \u201CWell, Tangi Utikere wants plan A.\u201D, we just want anything. At this point, we would be grateful for a boat that could cross the Cook Strait and a Minister who was happy to be in charge of that. But, instead, they are here today and they are pushing responsibility as far away from themselves as they possibly can. We still don\u2019t know if the contract has been formally cancelled for those $551 million boats, but KiwiRail is already out in the market trying to procure other boats. We don\u2019t know if New Zealanders are not only on the hook for that $551 million contract or however many hundreds of millions it will cost to break it, and another hundreds of millions of dollars\u2019 worth of some other project because Cabinet have decided to keep that information from New Zealanders and will not share it in this debate. They will not give us any clarity about the important decisions going forward which are in front of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo the questions as I see them are these: has the contract for the new Interislander ferries been terminated, and, if so, what is that penalty? We don\u2019t have that information\u2014that hasn\u2019t been offered by the Government. We also don\u2019t know if those Ministers have had those discussions and what options they are considering next. We have certainly heard from the ACT member that it is the ACT Party\u2019s position, and probably the ACT Ministers\u2019 around the Cabinet table, that they would sell it\u2014either all of it or part of it. So New Zealanders should remember that that is also a decision which is being considered by this Government and we deserve answers on that\u2014answers which have not been provided by Government Ministers in this debate. I see the Minister for State Owned Enterprises here, so I hope he will take a call and explain his position on everything the ACT member has raised earlier in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe also need to know whether this option to procure more ships is being explored at the same time as we are trying to exit that contract because this Government represents us in these international agreements with Hyundai Mipo. We ask whether New Zealand is on the hook for one contract while also entering into a second contract. We need to know what future generations of New Zealanders are being signed up to in terms of serious debt. There is so much more to discuss on this topic. I look forward to the Minister for State Owned Enterprises taking a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00220f8b8cc658314fd48df34329c8a0643d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f8b8cc658314fd48df34329c8a0643d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for State Owned Enterprises):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is an urgent debate on the grounding of the MV Aratere at 9.56 p.m. on Friday, 21 June, and the Government\u2019s response to the issue. Now, the grounding\u2014and we\u2019ve heard a lot of speechifying on a whole range of other topics in relation to this, but what we\u2019re talking about is the unfortunate grounding of a ship and whether or not some ferries might be coming in a couple of years\u2019 time or afterwards is of interest, I suppose, and the broader question around ferries, but not specifically relevant to what happened on Friday, 21 June, and the safety of everybody involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere were 47 people on board; 39 crew and eight passengers. Obviously the primary reaction to this is relief that the situation didn\u2019t happen in a more dangerous spot, and that it was resolved in this relatively\u2014that it didn\u2019t lead to a more dramatic disaster and heaven forbid any injuries. So we\u2019re relieved that it was a freight-only sailing and that not many members of the public were on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe did also note the swift action of the emergency services in responding to ensure that people were safe and the actions led to the successful refloating of the ferry on the 22nd. I\u00A0understand there was no water entering the vessel or oil going into the marine environment. So we were lucky. But obviously the primary issue in relation to this is that our safety infrastructure is working appropriately. So the absolute primary response of the Government in the broadest sense is that the Transport Accident Investigation Commission and Maritime New Zealand both have statutory functions to conduct inquiries and investigations into the circumstances and causes of marine accidents and incidents with a view to avoiding similar occurrences in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBoth of those agencies, the Transport Accident Investigation Commission and Maritime New Zealand, have confirmed their intention to inquire into or investigate the event in line with their statutory functions, and they are expected to take several months to continue. So in New Zealand, we mercifully have had very few serious accidents, but we\u2019ve had a few over the years. Each time anything happens, there is a thorough inquiry into what happened and lessons are learnt and operators are expected to deal with that. So we recognise the importance of the Cook Strait connectivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a2048e42bf463d88e64f12fcd7e456\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: What are you going to do about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f9d6063a2194fdeafb30949eb09adc4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, like I say, the proper investigatory agencies are looking into what caused this particular trap and how it\u2019s going to be dealt with. Then of course KiwiRail and their board are directly responsible for the safety of those ships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe question then sort of lends itself to the question: \u201CWell, what\u2019s going to happen in terms of the replacement of ageing ferries?\u201D Well, of course, as has been well canvassed, one of the reasons why this Government is having to deal with an horrendous financial and fiscal situation is that the previous Government was out of control in its spending, and no more simple example of that was the fact that the replacement of ferries blew out from $700 million to over $3 billion. It was in relation to the larger size of the ferries, the rail enablement, and all the work that needed to be done on the two port sites. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe, as any responsible Government and every New Zealander would expect the responsible Government to do, stopped that because it was unsustainable. We\u2019ve gone back and we\u2019re getting advice on alternatives. One of the very simpler alternatives is not to build\u2014not to take on much larger ferries that require different port infrastructure, but, actually, to get ferries that fit in within the current port infrastructure so that we do not have to spend so much money on what is an important event. So we\u2019re very focused on making sure that the investigation is done properly, firstly. Secondly, we\u2019ve got some decent process in place in order to provide replacements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5c4eae3d65f453c85b83fceddf9c539\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5c4eae3d65f453c85b83fceddf9c539\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227ad27f338c294cf68c218034d60aefad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ad27f338c294cf68c218034d60aefad\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Thank you to the Minister for taking a call. I think it\u2019s really important that as the Minister\u00A0for State Owned Enterprises, he does front up. It\u2019s important to recognise that the Minister of Transport and the Minister for State Owned Enterprises are responsible. This is happening on their watch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI do want to say, though, that there\u2019s been some pretty feisty debate here, but this is too important to be politicking about. That was a really significant event when that vessel ran aground. It ran aground for reasons that we don\u2019t yet know, but if it happened elsewhere, it would have been catastrophic. If it had happened with a passenger ferry in Tory Channel or at Barrett Reef, there could conceivably have been massive loss of life.\u00A0That\u2019s the risk we\u2019re facing. That is why this Parliament and that Government needs to get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhen we see what they\u2019ve done, there\u2019s a word that\u2019s been bandied about in respect of the iReX ferries: they\u2019ve \u201Crepudiated\u201D them. Now, it\u2019s an interesting word to use\u2014you don\u2019t see it very often. Here\u2019s what it means: we\u2019re refusing them; we\u2019re unilaterally declining to take them. Now, what I read into that is that the Government is now in a dispute resolution process, trying to find out how much they have to pay in damages for illegally breaking their contract. Now, that\u2019s going to be very expensive. There is a real risk here about our commercial reputation. New Zealand, as a sovereign nation, has a very good reputation for not breaking our promises. We\u2019ve just broken a $550 million promise with a major commercial player in the marine and wider heavy industry sector. The Hyundai Dockyard is not going to rush to build us our new vessels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, look, I do want to be clear: I was the former Minister for State Owned Enterprises; iReX was very, very difficult. It\u2019s accurate to say that the costs blew out\u2014they did. But I\u2019m convinced that pulling the rug on that contract is not the best thing for New Zealand, because that stretch of water, that most difficult stretch of water, is a lifeline connection to the South Island. I can tell you that South Islanders are feeling left out, left behind, and ignored by a Government that says, \u201CIt\u2019s all too hard. We\u2019ll kick that can down the road. We\u2019ll take some advice.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThere was a solution there. It was a lasting, long-term solution. I accept it was a solution that needed cost control. The documents that are now in the public domain will show that I as Minister for State Owned Enterprises, the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of Transport were continually putting disciplines around KiwiRail, both in cost savings and to make sure that they were using their own balance sheet to fund what was possible. But what we heard was a proposal which brought our ferry system into the 21st\u00A0century, that was rail-enabled so that we can utilise our rail network to its best capacity, that had vessels that were low carbon, highly efficient, and extremely seaworthy, and port-side infrastructure that wasn\u2019t aging and falling apart but earthquake resilient. That\u2019s where a lot of the money was going: in Wellington port that would stand up to a major event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve got now is a Government that has thrown its hands up\u2014and I\u2019ve seen the figures. I\u2019ve got a pretty good take on the fact that these new ferries\u2014smaller ferries, three of them\u2014are going to be $300 million each. So that\u2019s the best part of a billion dollars already. Getting out of the contract\u2019s another 200 million. And the ports still need upgrading, and will be we left with an outdated roll-on, roll-off system that is not a strong, safe, and resilient connection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I do say to this Government, let\u2019s work hard on this. Let\u2019s not just dismiss it because it was expensive and the last Government\u2019s idea. Let\u2019s look carefully at the real options, and let\u2019s not under-invest in our infrastructure. Let\u2019s make sure we have a genuinely strong connection between our islands, which is genuinely safe, because the risks of not doing it are too great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab31c0acd161491ca52203fb420a330a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab31c0acd161491ca52203fb420a330a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister for Infrastructure):\u003C/span\u003E That is a curious rewriting of history by the former Minister, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb. Here are the facts: the Government came to office\u2014actually, even before the Government took office, briefings were provided to incoming Ministers about the iReX project. The situation was extremely alarming. Ministers had to confront the reality that a project that started life as a sensible ferry investment\u2014which we all agree is a good idea, for the reasons the member outlines: the freight connection and passenger connection between the North and South Islands. We had to confront a situation where a project that started life as sensible, at least on the face of it, had grown to the point where the Crown was up for the thick end of $3 billion, possibly more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs it transpired, as Ministers dug into the detail\u2014a thing that, I might add, the previous Government clearly had not done\u2014it was not just two big new ferries; the consequence of that decision meant that the Crown was up for a massive amount of money on the land-side infrastructure to support those ferries. So members opposite are wilfully deluding themselves when they pretend that the Government had any other option but to repudiate the contract with Hyundai, because no one had done the hard work about the land-side infrastructure costs required. What\u2019s more, there are real questions about whether the size of the ferries purchased by KiwiRail, or intended to be purchased, could traverse the Cook Strait\u2014in particular, the Tory Channel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m not a shareholding Minister in relation to this\u2014I\u2019m not an expert on it\u2014but those are the facts as they appear to be. So members might want to rewrite history and say they did a good job of getting into the detail; the reality is they didn\u2019t\u2014the reality is they simply did not\u2014and the new Government, or newish Government, has had to confront fiscal reality. That is why we have made the decision we have done. We\u2019re committed to ferries across the Cook Strait. It\u2019s very important for the reasons Dr Duncan Webb mentions, but the Government is not up for a blank cheque. I am someone who is a believer in the ferry service across the Cook Strait, but the proposition that has been put to the Crown is simply not acceptable, and that is why the Government has made the decisions we have made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00222e9b0914d2f7452ca5b41a5ee6fe7776\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e9b0914d2f7452ca5b41a5ee6fe7776\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just after 10\u00A0o\u2019clock on Friday night, I received a phone call from the Maritime New Zealand official based in Nelson, who covers the top of the South\u2014Holly Payne\u2014to tell me that the Aratere Interislander had run aground just after leaving the port of Marlborough. During that phone call, it became clear that Holly needed to get herself to Picton, and so we made the decision to drive over the hill across State Highway 6 through to Picton, where we proceeded to speak with some of the KiwiRail staff based at the terminal about what had happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOver the coming nearly 24 hours, we spent time talking to KiwiRail staff and we also spent time with the crew and the passengers who had been on the ship when it went aground. As other members have noted today, there will be an inquiry, there will be multiple inquiries into what happened. But what is clear to me, and what is clear to the people across Te Tau Ihu, the top of the South, is that the Government\u2019s decision to cancel the contract for the new ferries was the wrong one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EPeople are incredibly, incredibly frustrated that we now have an Interislander service that is at risk. This is a really serious matter, and, for me, it\u2019s very personal. My grandfather Edgar Boyack was the Minister\u2019s adviser on the Wahine inquiry. He was the most senior nautical advisor at the time during that inquiry. One of the things that inquiry found was the need to have tugs that were able to haul stricken ships to safety, and we got those. Those tugs were replaced between 2009 and 2014 with more powerful tugs, but, unfortunately, they\u2019re not actually able to safely take a ship out of open water and to safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThere are a number of things that we need to get right to ensure that we have a safe and sustainable and resilient Interislander service going forward. The people of the South Island, and particularly the people at the top of the South, rely on the service. We rely on it for tourism. The service brings people to our region who travel around, attend events, and spend money in our region. We also rely on it to bring goods back and forth between the North Island and South Island, and whenever the ferries are out of action, our small businesses in Nelson often face delays at getting goods that they are able to sell through their retail shops. It\u2019s a very real and pressing issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWe actually had a great deal on those ferries\u2014$551 million for ferries\u2014and members on the Government benches continue to push the false assertion that those ferries wouldn\u2019t have been able to traverse the Tory Channel. That is not correct. Those ferries were being custom-built specifically to be able to navigate the perils. Those ferries would have been\u00A0delivered from next year, operational from 2026, and the people of the South Island want to know what the Government\u2019s plan is. The Government has continued to spend time in a blame game. Meanwhile, all the people of the South Island want is to know what the plan is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWe currently only have one ferry in operation. The Kaiarahi is under maintenance, and who knows what is going to happen to the Aratere. It is incredibly frustrating for us to watch Government Ministers fly in, fly out, play blame games, and not actually listen to the people of the South Island about the need for this service to be operational, for it to be safe, and for it to be sustainable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI want to finish by acknowledging the crew, the many crew who I spoke to who were so professional during what was a very frightening incident that could have led to a large maritime disaster. They deserve better, the passengers who travel on these ships deserve better, and we in the South Island deserve better from this Government. We need to stop with the heckling and the blame games and have a proper plan so that we can actually get across the strait safely and resiliently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a568b809657c47528cbcb3eee46c56ee\u0022\u003EBudget Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221caee40b459f4675a8e5221d20f0ac8e\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000407\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 30 May on the .\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0f91db59912407ab17c657b002b516c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0f91db59912407ab17c657b002b516c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Well, I adjourned the Budget debate\u2014when was it?\u2014two or three weeks ago. A lot has happened since then, and we were about to begin Budget urgency. But the debate on the Budget\u2014a very good Budget produced by my good friend and colleague the Hon Nicola Willis\u2014continues. I wanted to run through some of the highlights, as I see it, from the Budget because it was a very good Budget. It was a challenging Budget delivered in challenging times for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI want to start with that proposition because it is clear to anybody out there, walking around outside of Parliament in the real world, that it is challenging out there. Interest rates are high. The official cash rate is at elevated levels. Inflation is still outside the band, at over 4 percent. There is a palpable sense out there in the public that there are tough economic times, and people are feeling that. We acknowledge that on the Government benches, and I make the point that better times are ahead but it will be tough for quite some time because we are dealing with the hangover after the night before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe are dealing with the feeling that happens when you wake up a bit late, at 11 o\u2019clock on a Sunday morning and you start craving hash browns, bacon, and sausages and, in my case, a bit of black pudding, and you think, \u201COh gee, last night I had a bit too much pinot noir from Central Otago.\u201D, or, in my case, some whiskey, and that\u2019s kind of what happened to New Zealand. We printed a lot of money and Mr Robertson came along and spiked the punch at the same time, and fiscal policy was not a friend to monetary policy. In fact, we just went full tilt on the accelerator. We printed a lot and we spent a lot, and every year that Grant Robertson was the Minister of Finance, he exceeded his Budget allowance. So he\u2019d always turn up at the Budget Policy Statement towards the end of the year and say, \u201CNext year, I\u2019m going to spend a certain amount of money\u201D. It was normally about $2 billion to $3 billion, and every year he would exceed it\u2014every year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a bit like my diet. I always wake up on New Year\u2019s Day and say, \u201COh, this year I\u2019m going to really get down to 90 kilograms.\u201D, and it never happens. It\u2019s a bit like that with Grant Robertson\u2014he never met his allowances. As a result, the spending just rolls on, and, as financially literate members know\u2014they\u2019re normally on this side of the House\u2014those numbers just cascade on top of each other. So, over time, you end up with enormous fiscal largesse. That\u2019s how we ended up with an 80 percent increase in Government spending in six years\u2014because he just added to the allowances every year. They just built and built and built and built, and we\u2019ve ended up in the fiscal situation we\u2019re in, to the point where\u2014and this is in the Budget documents\u2014Treasury advised there is a structural deficit. There is a structural deficit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe first thing this Budget does is it starts the process of fiscal restraint, and that is extremely important. I find the attitude of members opposite towards this bizarre, because on the one hand\u2014and Chris Hipkins is the sort of past master of this\u2014Chris Hipkins says, \u201CWell, Nicola Willis is borrowing all this money\u2014tut, tut, tut. What about all the debt?\u201D In this sort of new-found road to Damascus conversion of the friend of fiscal policy, he pretends to be worried about the debt, and then, on the other hand, he says, \u201CBut you\u2019re cutting funding to this. You need to increase spending here. What about this? What about that?\u201D He\u2019s never seen something that\u2019s a Government programme he doesn\u2019t want to increase spending on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWell, actually, Government is about hard decisions. Government is about making tough choices, and the last Government pretended that they could just continue to increase spending and never confront trade-offs. As a result, the money hose just kept being spouted and money just continued to flow, to the point where we had an 80 percent increase in spending and we have massive debt that we are going to need to repay. So there are lower allowances in this Budget and we intend to stick to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe start the process of fiscal restraint and we have gone through, line by line, and made a series of savings as a result of this Budget. Some of those decisions were hard. I\u2019ve talked publicly about the First Home Grant decision, where we had to make the difficult choice to end first-home grants as low-value expenditure and reprioritise that money to social housing expenditure. Members are sort of crying a bit opposite, but they know I am right when it comes to effective public\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cdfb0185d2c4f38a7779a7aee9f3f39\u0022\u003EHon Jo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e8f1f5d27d04d23a99bea7c4f3c57e5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I am right\u2014I am right. This is effective public policy. Subsidising demand for housing does not create new houses. The way in which you create new houses is by fixing the building system, fixing the resource consent system, opening up land\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f4134b376354320acd26fb2cb34db6e\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Changing incentives, Bish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022393d8dae58d240b88de786d97d5e582d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and funding infrastructure, and that is what we are focused on. And I know Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick agrees with me. Isn\u2019t it interesting that the Labour Party have not promised to bring back the First Home Grant? They\u2019ve criticised us for cutting it, but they have not promised to bring it back, and I find that intriguing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second thing this Budget does\u2014and it flows from the first\u2014is it reprioritises funding from the back office to the front line. We are unashamed about reducing the size of the bureaucracy and making sure we employ more nurses and doctors and police officers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOne of the best investments in this Budget\u2014and I want to give a shout-out to the hard-working New Zealand First on this, and my good friend and colleague Casey Costello\u2014is the commitment to hiring 500 new police. We saw the first fruits of that on the weekend with the new police on the beat in our CBDs, and isn\u2019t that going to be a wonderful thing? When I go out there into the real world, people say to me, \u201CWe want to see cops on the beat. We want to see them walking down our main streets\u2014we want to see them out and about.\u201D, and that is a real way of deterring crime in and of itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThat is just one example of the kinds of prudent and sensible investments you can make when you prioritise your resources. When you do the opposite, and you just pretend that money is free and that there\u2019s a magical fairy at the bottom of the garden who can just keep inventing money, essentially, you don\u2019t confront those tough trade-offs and you end up in the situation we\u2019re in, which is a real situation of fiscal crisis where we have to make hard decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other thing this Budget does is deliver tax cuts\u2014tax relief for hard-working New Zealanders. Now, there were a few people out there during the lead-up to the Budget\u2014commonly, they\u2019re commentators\u2014saying things like, \u201CWell, the Government should really cancel the tax cuts.\u201D It\u2019s an interesting proposition\u2014it\u2019s an interesting proposition. The thing about that proposition is it would have required the Government to break the central policy that the Government campaigned on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I just think it\u2019s worth reflecting on\u2014I mean, the Labour Party never believed in tax cuts in the first place. They\u2019ve never seen a tax increase they weren\u2019t in favour of and they\u2019ve never been in favour of tax relief ever\u2014ever. When the Government books are not going so well, they say, \u201CNow is not the time for tax cuts.\u201D When the Government books are doing well, they say, \u201CNow is not the time for tax cuts. We should really do something else with the money.\u201D You can never win. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ll never be in favour of tax relief, and it goes to the central difference between the parties. On this side of the House, between the ACT Party, the National Party, and the New Zealand First Party, we believe in letting New Zealanders keep more of their own money because it\u2019s their money, and we believe they can spend it, generally, better than the Government can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe also believe in this: we believe that after 14 years of fiscal drag, it\u2019s time to remedy that situation. More and more people are pushed into higher and higher tax brackets, paying more and more of their money to the Government every year, to the point now where for people on the minimum wage, towards the end of their take-home pay, some of that money is in the middle-income tax brackets. That is wrong. That is crazy. Sensible countries do something about it, and we are now doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs I say, the Labour Party need to remember who they purport to represent, because most of these tax relief benefits flow to low and middle income New Zealanders. On average, households benefit by 60 bucks a fortnight; households with children, $78 a fortnight; 94\u00A0percent of households will benefit from the tax package in this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI was so proud to see that legislation go through straight away on Budget night, because I know that come 31 July, a huge number of New Zealanders are going to wake up with more in their back pocket as a result of that package. They\u2019ll be able to afford things they weren\u2019t able to afford before: new school shoes for their kids, music lessons, and actually making it easier to pay the rent on time. Those things are important. That\u2019s what the Budget package does, and that\u2019s why I commend this Budget package to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00228a5f27ba343742459673f60abe4aea26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a5f27ba343742459673f60abe4aea26\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister, Chris Bishop, who has just sat down, told us that Government is about hard choices. Well, we certainly saw those harsh choices that this Government has made in the Budget that was delivered in what seems like a lifetime ago now, given how much has been written about it. This is a Budget of broken promises, it is a Budget that is taking New Zealand backwards, and it is a Budget that exemplifies the wrong choices that our Government is making on behalf of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, New Zealanders were promised much on the campaign trail\u2014not least $250 a fortnight in tax cuts from the National Party on the hustings. What have most New Zealanders who have gone to the calculator to find out what they\u2019ll be receiving found? They\u2019ve found that it is way short of that. And what\u2019s more, they\u2019ve found out they had to start shelling out for bus fares, because the previous investment in having free bus fares has gone. They\u2019ve found they\u2019ll have to be paying for prescriptions again in many cases, because that is a choice that this Government has made to slash the funding in that area. They\u2019ve found that, in their case, the free lunches in their child\u2019s school will be reduced to nothing more than a snack. And these are, once again, things that are going to come out of the back pocket of hard-working New Zealand families. New Zealand families realise the wool was pulled over their eyes and they are worse off as a result of this Budget and not better off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe have a Minister of Finance who is insistent on telling us that she hasn\u2019t borrowed for her $10 billion tax cut package, despite borrowing $12 billion to pay for measures in the Budget. New Zealand\u2019s debt as a percentage of GDP has risen. If the Government had not chosen to deliver $10 billion worth of tax cuts, the need to borrow that $12 billion would not exist. But, over and over again, we have a Minister of Finance and a Prime Minister who are intent on telling New Zealanders that black is white and they have not borrowed for their tax cuts. That simply is not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut what we do see as a result of this Budget is laid bare. I think one of the most interesting reads of any Budget is the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update. That tells us a great deal about what Treasury is saying the impacts of the Budget being delivered are. They tell us that house prices are going to continue to rise. They tell us that there is going to be upward pressure on rents because of the removal of interest deductibility. We also see in the analysis of the Budget that child poverty will rise. These are the results of the Budget and the choices that the members of the Government have made in a Budget that they are delivering to us. We know that it will take so many hard-working New Zealand families backwards and they will be worse off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIf I have a look at what this Government is doing in terms of climate\u2014and what they are not doing, more to the point\u2014this is a Government in which the best they can say about their positive vision for addressing climate action is, \u201CWell, we didn\u2019t cut that line of the previous Government\u2019s work.\u201D There is $3 billion worth of initiatives and climate action carved out in this Budget. There is $3 billion of investment that was about securing New Zealand\u2019s security, New Zealand jobs, and New Zealand\u2019s future that this Government has taken the knife to, to pay for tax cuts and give tax benefits to landlords. That\u2019s the kind of self-interest we are seeing from members on the other benches. We\u2019ve seen money to partner with New Zealand businesses to reduce industrial emissions and keep jobs in New Zealand slashed by a Government saying it doesn\u2019t want corporate welfare but has absolutely no plans to do anything about industrial allocation of emissions trading credits. What they are saying is they would rather go out and pay other countries $100, $200\u2014who knows how many hundreds\u2014per credit rather than cut emissions at home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWell, I can tell members\u2014the economic geniuses, self-proclaimed, on the other side of the House\u2014the New Zealand Steel deal delivered for New Zealand emissions reductions at $18 a tonne. Go out and find me an international credit anywhere that will deliver emissions reductions so cheaply and will benefit New Zealand in so many ways. But what was laid bare when we had the chance to scrutinise the Minister of Climate Change, the Minister for Energy, and any of the Ministers involved in this work was that is no plan, there is no vision, and, frankly, there is no understanding of how New Zealand needs to get to where it needs to get. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen money stripped out of the Warmer Kiwi Homes programme, a programme that returns so much more than it puts in. We\u2019ve seen money pulled out of the Community Renewable Energy Fund, a programme put in place by our Government to work with communities to not only generate badly needed renewable electricity but also to create community resilience. Support for the energy, education, and communities programme\u2014a programme that was working with some of the most vulnerable New Zealand households about how to reduce their power bills\u2014is gone because this Government would rather fund $2.9 billion in tax relief for landlords than helping some of our most\u00A0vulnerable families pay the bills and get by. The just transition programme and any money for us to stimulate a hydrogen industry in New Zealand is gone from a Government with no foresight who thinks economic development is selling houses to each other and then claiming interest deductibility on it. That\u2019s the kind of choices that are laid bare in this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we do know about the kinds of choices that this Government has made is that they are not interested in what will take New Zealand forwards. It is a Budget that consistently looked over its shoulder. It is a Budget that only is intent on taking New Zealand backwards. And let\u2019s look at some of the other markers that just show how far back this Budget is taking New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EUnemployment, according to the Budget, is due to peak this year at 5.3 percent, and I\u00A0want everyone just to pause: 5.3 percent doesn\u2019t sound like a big number, but that represents hundreds and thousands of New Zealanders who will be without work and that will need to make ends meet. Was there anything in this Budget for them? No, there was not. What we\u2019ve seen is we\u2019ve seen the minimum wage exemption for disabled people cut. There was money actually taken out of the Budget to make sure that we were paying disabled people the minimum wage, and we\u2019re told that we can\u2019t do that, otherwise disabled people will not be employed. No, they won\u2019t. There was money in the Budget to subsidise employers to ensure that dignity of work and good pay could be given to those\u00A0people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeing is a set of choices laid bare. It is not, as we would be told by the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister, a Budget that is giving the biggest boost to working people. No, it is not. It is taking working people backwards. It is taking money out of the back pockets of working New Zealanders to pay for $2.9 billion worth of tax relief for our landlords. It is taking money out of our children\u2019s future by scrapping climate initiatives. If there was ever a greater testament to the lack of vision and the lack of ambition for New Zealand that a Government could carry, it was contained in the pages of the Budget that was delivered by this Government two or three weeks ago. It is a Budget that will not benefit those that need it the most; it is a Budget that is making the wrong choices and taking us backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1ccd414ecb54305839f782f022503cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1ccd414ecb54305839f782f022503cd\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The member who resumed her seat, the Hon Megan Woods, doesn\u2019t believe that 3.5 million New Zealanders believe tax relief\u2014doesn\u2019t believe hard-working New Zealanders should get tax relief. Now, that\u2019s a sad place to start, because, in reality, the Budget that was delivered by the Minister of Finance, Nicola Willis, on 30 May prioritised hard-working New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI want to tell the House this, because that side of the House does not think those 3.5\u00A0million New Zealanders get it. They do. They absolutely get it. They know that each and every day that they are struggling, that they are doing it tough, they know, although we might still see some months ahead, it will actually get better, and they know why. They know, because they voted in a coalition Government at the election last year that they could depend on for delivering their promises. They knew that there was a Minister of Finance who not only delivered a Budget on 30 May but also delivered a mini-Budget before Christmas, literally weeks after coming in, to actually lay the foundations for what our country needs, not just in the days and weeks ahead but the months and years ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThat side of the House thinks that New Zealanders don\u2019t get it. They think New Zealanders don\u2019t get it, but, actually, what are they doing at home? They are thinking about how they take more care with their weekly budget, how they balance it. Actually, for far too many, it is too tough. Some of them might have to borrow to get through this period of time, but they are not wasting their money on frivolous things that don\u2019t lead to a better life for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe other side of the House don\u2019t think that hard-working New Zealanders get what our Government is doing for them. So the 3.5 million New Zealanders who understand\u2014and as Minister Bishop quite rightly laid out, he described it in other terms. I\u2019m going to describe it as the sugar hit\u2014the sugar hit of the previous Government spraying money away around everywhere, not caring whether it landed, not caring whether it actually delivered anything or delivered any outcomes. But you know what it\u2019s like when you\u2019ve had too much sugar. If you stop sugar, it\u2019s a crash and you feel rotten, your head hurts,\u00A0and you feel sick, but, actually, once you\u2019ve got through that period without the sugar, you are actually way better off. That\u2019s exactly the period of time. Unfortunately, based on Treasury\u2019s forecasts, it could be sort of six months\u2014hopefully not too much longer than that\u2014but this Government is up front with New Zealanders about the position we are in and what we have inherited, but, more importantly, the steps we are taking to resolve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIt was fascinating\u2014scrutiny week last week was the opportunity for the Opposition to grill Ministers on their budgets and on their estimates, and, gosh, wasn\u2019t that surprising. There were actually very, very few opportunities for the Opposition to land a hit, because at the end of the day, New Zealanders everywhere, from one end of this country to the other, are contacting their new MPs\u2014and we\u2019ve got some fantastic new MPs in this House\u2014and they are contacting Ministers and they are saying, \u201CKeep going. We know the decisions you\u2019re taking are tough, but please keep going.\u201D, because they absolutely know they are the right decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe member that resumed her seat before me was somewhat interesting when she talked about the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update and the fiscal update that was provided by Treasury and talked about the unemployment rate rising to 5.3 percent. If we can hold it at 5.3 percent, despite these absolutely dire economic situations and circumstances we have inherited, that\u2019s actually a win.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the thing: despite there being very low unemployment, that side of the House, when they were in Government, managed to clock up an extra 70,000 people on the jobseeker benefit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022272159df54cc456dab2dc47ef23556f5\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a8976739eba4b7ea7d36e3f116dd4df\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely outrageous. At a time when many businesses everywhere were desperate for staff, it is just unbelievable that they were so successful in doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo, instead, this Government lays out a clear plan\u2014it will be ambitious\u2014for reducing the number of people on the jobseeker benefit by 50,000. But if we just picked a number out of the air and said, \u201COh, well, sounds like a good number. Sounds like a good slogan.\u201D\u2014no, there\u2019s a detailed plan that goes with it, because the coalition Government, every Minister, every MP that\u2019s working hard on the ground knows that it is our job, even in tough times, to improve the lives of the people we represent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIn social development and employment, it\u2019s reducing the number on the jobseeker benefit. So what have we done? First and foremost, we do believe, on this side of the House, that there are rights and responsibilities. If somebody\u2019s on the jobseeker benefit, they have the right to get welfare support, but they have the responsibility to take steps that they should be taking to improve their chances of finding a job, so if they don\u2019t, there should be a consequence. It\u2019s called a sanction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWhat else have we done to make the welfare system more active? We\u2019ve introduced K\u014Drero Mahi, so if somebody signs on for the jobseeker benefit, within two weeks we want them back at a seminar connecting with the Ministry of Social Development, talking about what steps they are taking to find a job\u2014actually, not that kind of shocking or stunning, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWhen we announced it, one of the journalists was like \u201CBut surely that already happens.\u201D, and, like, no, unfortunately, it doesn\u2019t. After signing on for a benefit, somebody could go for up to 12 months with zero contact\u2014zero. So, instead, we are a Government that is focused on supporting people into employment. It will be hard, these times, particularly the next six months, and we do recognise in the Treasury documents that the numbers are due to increase. But rather than just say, \u201COh, you know, that\u2019s tough.\u201D, no, we will double our efforts to support more Kiwis into work. That is exactly what this side of the House will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EAnother group of New Zealanders that we are supporting in this Budget is, of course, disabled New Zealanders. Unfortunately, what we\u2019ve seen, and this is a classic example, in the creation of Whaikaha - Ministry of Disabled People\u2014the previous Government set it up with a big fanfare and they set these wildly high expectations but actually didn\u2019t address the fundamental issues of funding the disability support service that they knew and were in the establishment Cabinet paper yet did nothing. They did nothing to address it, so this Government comes along and inherits a mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EDo we just surrender? No, we are doing the work; we have a review to understand exactly what has happened but, more importantly, what we need to do to solve it, because disabled New Zealanders, their carers, and their families deserve better than what the previous Government set up the ministry to do. I\u2019m absolutely committed that Whaikaha will be successful. Disabled New Zealanders need them to be. They need us as a coalition Government to deliver better. Whether it\u2019s access, whether it\u2019s employment, whether it\u2019s ensuring there are sufficient care and support workers, our Government is focused on improving the lives of disabled people, their families, and carers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI want to return to where I started and say this is a Government who is absolutely delivering for New Zealanders. So, even in challenging times, we focused on New Zealanders being able to keep more of what they earn. The other side of the House doesn\u2019t think they deserve it. They don\u2019t think they deserve it. It\u2019s outrageous\u2014that is absolutely outrageous. They think they can spend it better than taxpayers can. Well, actually, no, we trust and we back New Zealanders. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve allowed 3.5 million New Zealanders to keep their own money, and we will be incredibly careful with what they provide in tax. That\u2019s why every Minister has been very careful in looking at expenditure, focusing on the front line\u2014is it delivering results or is it not? Yes, that means some tough choices, but if you think about this Budget, it\u2019s delivering more in health, more in education, more in disability, and in keeping our community safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022dca35326773b46d4ac9cc2fcf44970d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dca35326773b46d4ac9cc2fcf44970d4\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. There are things that none of us could do alone. There are few New Zealanders who have the individual wealth to build schools or hospitals or pay the $20 billion annual superannuation cost that we have as a country. That is why we form society. It is why we decide to come together to help to pay for things, whether that be the infrastructure or the services that all of us fundamentally agree and value and say that we need. That is the point of a representative democracy\u2014the point of all of us, as 120-odd MPs in this place, coming together to make decisions on behalf of New Zealanders about how we best make decisions in the collective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the discussion that we are having tonight, on the bill which implements the spending announcements in Budget 2024, is that we are not so much grappling with vision for the future of this country, let alone the present day; what we are grappling with is a shredder. There are no foundations in this Budget for the flourishing or the wellbeing of people or the planet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThere are a lot of different places I could start on this, so I\u2019ll start just firstly by responding to two Ministers who have so far contributed to this debate\u2014the former, the Hon Louise Upston, who just said she thinks this side of the House thinks that New Zealanders just don\u2019t get it. And I\u2019d really like to respond to that point, because this is something which I\u2019ve been banging on about for the last six or seven years that I\u2019ve had the privilege of occupying a seat in this Parliament. I think New Zealanders are a heck of a lot smarter than a lot of politicians and a lot of the mainstream media give them credit for. I think New Zealanders can see through a lot of the nonsense and the bluster and the slogans that come out of this place. So I just want to address that right upfront: New Zealanders are actually tired of the nonsense that comes out, probably in most people\u2019s perspective, of every single political party that\u2019s represented in this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe best that any of us could do or hope for with the privilege of our position is to engage in a robust, evidence-informed debate. To that effect, I\u2019d just like to put it on the record, for the sake of the House\u2019s knowledge, that I wrote to the Minister of Finance in the wake of the Budget and asked for her to carry on with the work that she had promised she would do in Opposition\u2014that is, to pursue the independent policy costings unit, which, of course, the former Minister of Finance, the Hon Grant Robertson, and the Hon\u00A0James Shaw, as associate finance Minister in our first term, in that relationship with Labour, tried to get across the line but was shot down by National. So we\u2019re hoping to\u00A0revive that for the sake of transparency and independence, so that we can have a meaningful and informed, evidence-based debate on Budgets, least of all on a universal set of figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ENow, there have also been some statements from the likes of the Hon Chris Bishop, who was speaking about how this Budget is occurring in the context of unconventional monetary policy, especially post-COVID-19. For the uninitiated, unconventional monetary policy was the programme by which the Reserve Bank decided to basically print more money\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4599497387c487f911ce46a0a332bd5\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Money-printing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc968f02804936b177d052d7f62035\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes, the Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2014through programmes like the Large Scale Asset Purchase programme and Funding for Lending. Interestingly enough, back in 2020, Treasury and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand advised the Government\u2014and the Greens actually went on about this quite a lot too over the last few years\u2014that the pursual of this unconventional monetary policy without mitigating fiscal policy would result in what the Reserve Bank and Treasury called \u201Cdistributional impacts\u201D but what the\u00A0rest of us in the real world call \u201Cgreater inequality\u201D. That is something which the Greens are on the record, time and again, asking the former Government to meaningfully address. We cannot pretend that what the Reserve Bank did happened in a vacuum back then, and\u00A0we cannot pretend that what they are doing now also operates in a vacuum. Monetary and fiscal policy are supposed to operate hand in glove.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe also heard commentary about the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update, and there\u2019s a really interesting point in this, actually\u2014that is, that we know, based on the projections from this Government\u2019s operating allowance that they\u2019ve handed themselves, that they have said, in this window of the next two years, they are going to have $2.4 billion of new operating allowances for each of those next two years. But guess what! What Treasury, what the Government\u2019s own officials say, is that you need at least $2.5 billion. That\u2019s $100 million more than the Government has already allocated themselves just to keep the lights on\u2014that is, with the level of services that New Zealanders are accustomed to and expect. So that might be why it is that we are starting to hear, out of our nurses and our doctors and our medical profession, that there\u2019s, effectively, a hiring freeze on at the front line. And do you know what that does? When you don\u2019t invest in issues as they arise, those costs accumulate. That is in direct contradiction to all of the bluster and nonsense that we have heard from this Government\u2014that they are somehow good economic or fiscal managers. You don\u2019t get to have that reputation simply by saying it, especially when the facts operate in entire contradiction to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWhat this Budget does is, in fact, actually set us up for austerity. It sets a bunch of programmes up to fail, so that the Government can ultimately end up cutting those programmes or privatising those programmes. We see hints of that in the changes to the school lunches programme, which takes the average cost per child from approximately $8 to $2. I can point to a number of schools within my constituency who have written and pleaded with the Associate Minister of Education that this will not work for them and asked whether there is any wiggle room or discretion whatsoever. These are the hard choices that the Government keeps telling us about. Its hard choices are to cut school lunches for our kids and to hand $2.9 billion in tax cuts to landlords. Those are some really hard choices for this Government!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also seeing the can kicked down the road on climate change, and the Hon Megan Woods spoke a little bit about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a713d4fb946e48b8838886ed8d20a2cd\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: What a load of rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cbfaf015d4946f3bab2cfc766a63aff\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m so glad that the climate Minister is here in the House to actually hear the recounting of his inability to answer any straightforward questions at scrutiny week last week. We heard from that very climate Minister that the market was working properly, when the emissions trading scheme (ETS) auction failed last week. Do you know what that does? It puts a $700 million hole in their revenue plan and the Budget that is unable to now be directed, not into the Climate Emergency Response Fund\u2014because they cut that; they\u2019re not interested in decarbonising industry. What it does is it cuts $700-odd million from the revenue that they need to fund their tax cuts for landlords. Make it make sense!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EOn top of that, we also heard both from the Minister of Climate Change and from the Minister of Finance that they are still committed to our nationally determined contribution on the Paris Agreement. This is a really important point, and if I can drill into it, because the Minister of Climate Change, of all people, should be interested in this: our contribution as a country, as one of 196 countries under the Paris Agreement, is to say that we are going to keep below 1.5 degrees of warming. And as the UN Secretary-General put it just this past week, that is not just some airy theory, abstract target; that is the scientific fundamentals for retaining life on Earth as we know it\u2014in fact, the climate necessary for growing food, which this Government constantly tells us it cares about. And do you know what? What we have from the Ministry for the Environment and from Treasury last year, in approximately November 2023, was an estimate paper that they pulled together to try and put some kind of figures on the amount of money that we are liable to be on the hook for, up to the year 2030, as a country, regardless of who\u2019s in Government. And do you know what they estimated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EOur offshore liabilities are looking to be somewhere between $3.7 billion and $24\u00A0billion for offshore mitigation. That is a necessary figure, to the tune of however many billions of dollars, even if we were to meet our very own emissions reductions budgets, that we will have to pay others to reduce their emissions. Meanwhile\u2014riddle me this\u2014this Government has also made decisions knowing full well on their own official advice that their Budget will also increase emissions. But they haven\u2019t budgeted for those\u00A0offshore liabilities, to the tune of billions of dollars to 2030\u2014again, kicking the can down the road on that. And, on top of that, alongside shredding the work programme that was already under way at the Climate Change Commission to price agricultural emissions\u2014the only sector in our economy that is currently not priced under the ETS but also represents 5 percent of our GDP and half of our emissions\u2014they\u2019ve also set up their own working group to apparently do this work by 2030, which, as we discovered at scrutiny week with the Minister of Climate Change, has no budget allocated to it. They can\u2019t tell us the terms of reference, who the members are, or how much this new working group is going to cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re left scratching our heads, and, again, in a position where we are dealing with a ticking time bomb, whether it is on the front of climate change or whether it is on the front of inequality or child poverty. There is so much more that could be said about the fact that this Government is just leaving the infrastructural deficit to continue eroding away at the quality of life that New Zealanders deserve. Different choices could be made. And I\u2019d note, interestingly enough, that the Government itself and the Minister of Finance referred to the need for us to do fiscal consolidation. To that effect, there are tons of international bodies, the likes of the International Monetary Fund and the OECD, who have pointed out one of the key things we could do is fix our tax system with a capital gains tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002243af971d60924b5cb67aacd55b1af0c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243af971d60924b5cb67aacd55b1af0c3\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to talk about the 2024 Budget, and what a great Budget for New Zealanders this Budget was. It\u2019s quite interesting when you follow the Green Party over there, because every single speech they end with has to be \u201CA new tax\u2014a new tax.\u201D It\u2019s all about more tax. They haven\u2019t seen something yet that they don\u2019t want to tax. Everything they see, they want to tax, and that\u2019s their modus operandi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut this Budget was about tax, and it was about tax relief for hard-working New Zealanders, who, by the way, haven\u2019t had tax relief since 2010\u201414 years. The other side have been happy to let inflation erode people\u2019s real incomes, let tax creep continue to take its toll on people\u2019s incomes, and they didn\u2019t do anything about it. In fact, I think it\u2019s really important to note that whilst it\u2019s been 14 years since New Zealanders have had tax relief, it would be a lot sooner if the last Government hadn\u2019t repealed the tax relief that the last National Government put in place in 2017. Because, of course, in 2017, the Hon Steven Joyce legislated tax relief, and the very, very, very first thing the Labour Party did when they came into power was to repeal the tax relief that New Zealanders had received under that National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThat is exactly how that last Government operated: tax, tax, tax, spend, spend, spend, and not worry about the future, while this Government is now having to clean up the fiscal mess left behind by the last Government. And what a mess it is, a mess all over the place: the borrowing, the borrowing, and the spending. In fact, us as Ministers, going through our portfolios, having to clean up our portfolios and find the savings and make the tough decisions is exactly what the New Zealand public have been expecting of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThat is exactly why the New Zealand public voted to get rid of that last Government\u2014because they could see the reckless spending that they were going down. Spending like drunken sailors, not worrying about the future, borrowing money and nothing to show for it\u2014nothing to show for it. Then they have the audacity to stand up and say, \u201COh, well, we have to be, you know, worrying about the $3 billion iReX project.\u201D Well, I\u2019m sorry; again, nothing to show for it. Nothing to show for it, even after six years in Government. So, this Budget was about giving New Zealanders the tax relief that they need to ensure that New\u00A0Zealanders can address the cost of living crisis. I\u2019ve heard members on this side speaking in this debate about the pain that New Zealanders are currently feeling\u2014and it is real, it is real. The economy is in a tough position left behind by the last Government who had no plan for the economy, who had no plan other than to tax, spend, borrow, tax, spend, borrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWell, this Government has inherited that mess and we\u2019re having to make the tough decisions, but the first and number one priority for this Government is to provide that tax relief for working families, so that New Zealanders can just keep a little more of what they earn\u2014the principle of keeping a bit more of what they earn. [Interruption] I tell the members on the other side of the House: they don\u2019t believe in it; they just want to take it. If they ever get back into Government\u2014if they ever get back into Government\u2014I can guarantee New Zealanders that the first thing they will do is increase taxes. The first thing they will do is increase taxes because that\u2019s exactly what every single Labour Government does. They get in and they increase taxes on working New Zealanders. [Interruption] They know it\u2014they know it. They can feel it deep in their hearts. They can feel it. They feel the desire to keep taxing New Zealanders. It\u2019s bubbling away as they interject in my speech. They can\u2019t wait\u2014but they won\u2019t because the public of New Zealand can see right through it. The public of New Zealand won\u2019t let them ever get hold of the Treasury benches ever again, because they know that this country has fundamental challenges which need fixing: the cost of living crisis, crime, public services\u2014making sure that public services actually work for New Zealanders\u2014and, of course, infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI heard the member who sat down just before, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, talk about the infrastructure deficit. Well, billions of dollars were borrowed, and what have we got to show for it? They cancelled the roads of national significance\u2014gone. We think about the Northland Expressway up to Whang\u0101rei\u2014cancelled. No planning done for the last six years. I came in and asked the NZ Transport Agency what major roading projects across the country had been consented. Well, the good news is\u2014the good news\u2014there\u2019s one. It\u2019s Warkworth to Te Hana, going north of Auckland. The bad news? There\u2019s only one: Warkworth to Te Hana. The pipeline of infrastructure was stopped by the last Government, other than, of course, the pretty pictures: the pretty pictures of \u201CAuckland Light Fail\u201D and Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving. The beautiful pictures and slogans which they spent hundreds of millions of dollars on; they couldn\u2019t even deliver a business case\u2014they couldn\u2019t even deliver a business case. An absolute fail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWe have inherited an infrastructure deficit that we are tackling in this year\u2019s Budget, and I\u2019m proud of the investment that we\u2019re putting into roads, into rail, into fixing the potholes on our roads, improving public transport for New Zealanders. This Budget delivers for infrastructure in New Zealand. As Minister of Transport, of course I\u2019m incredibly proud of the $2.68 billion increase in investment in roads and rail and public transport to support the Government Policy Statement on Land Transport: another billion dollars to advance the roads of national significance and major public transport projects\u2014isn\u2019t that great for the regions of New Zealand where roads are what are critical to unlocking the economic growth and productivity of our country?\u2014and $939 million for the recovery of the roads which were damaged by the East Coast, North Island weather events. That is going to make a huge difference to the State highways and the local roads. And $266.9 million for rail in our metropolitan rail networks. This is going to mean that the City Rail Link in Auckland is able to be opened, with the rail rebuild completed in 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis is going to make a huge difference to Auckland. For six years, talking about Auckland light fail, whilst the last National Government made the tough decisions to start the City Rail Link, which would double the capacity of our rail network in Auckland. That is real change for our public transport network. That will make a real difference to congestion and getting Aucklanders moving. The last Government didn\u2019t even deliver a business case, let alone some pretty pictures. Another $200 million to support KiwiRail to carry out maintenance and renewals of the national rail network; money for the Civil Aviation Authority so we can keep the important work they do going; money for Surf Life Saving in the Coastguard to help them on the critical safety work that they do. We have made a huge investment here as well in decarbonising the bus fleet, which is going to make a big difference in terms of lowering emissions in our public transport system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis additional $2.68 billion goes on top of the already announced draft Government policy statement, which includes over $20 billion of investment in the next three years. I\u2019m proud of the decisions already made by the NZ Transport Agency to invest a 91\u00A0percent increase in pothole prevention and maintenance on our State highway network, and an increase of 50 percent of pothole prevention on local roads. It\u2019s not just about making sure there\u2019s increased funding\u2014we need it\u2014but also making sure that there are outcomes delivering for New Zealanders. We have set very clear expectations around how we want that money to be spent and the targets that we want the agency to be delivering against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis Budget delivers for the infrastructure that New Zealanders need. This Government understands the infrastructure challenges New Zealand has, and we\u2019ve also set aside an increase in the multi-year capital allowance, increasing it to $7.5 billion because we do know there are other challenges and other decisions that need to be made in terms of infrastructure in the coming years. We\u2019ve obviously had the conversation earlier today around the ferries; there\u2019s other major roading and rail projects and other infrastructure challenges this country faces. We will face up and make the tough decisions, invest in the infrastructure that New Zealanders rely on so we can grow our economy, boost productivity, and help New Zealanders get where they need to go quickly and safely. This Government\u2019s Budget delivers for infrastructure. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022c192a0ff696a44e7b7a9e5b6760a6461\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c192a0ff696a44e7b7a9e5b6760a6461\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E A Budget represents a series of choices that are made by a Government. A Budget makes a series of claims about what a Government is doing. But when we dig down into those choices, when we dig down into those claims, then the character of the Government is revealed. What is revealed in this Budget is something that I can only think of as being devious. It is a Budget that alleges that it gives with one hand, and then it takes with away with the other. It makes a whole series of choices that leave ordinary New Zealanders worse off. They talked up large, they promised they would deliver, but what have they done? Public transport subsidies: gone. Free prescriptions: gone. Bare minimum wages for people with intellectual disabilities: gone. Proper school lunches: gone. The second year of the Apprenticeship Boost: gone. All these things, small amounts\u2014a bit here, a bit there\u2014but they all make a real difference to families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat Government over there talked up large about the tax threshold changes, talked up large about what that might do for families. But, on this side of the House, we\u2019ve had family after family contact us, sending us messages, talking about the increased cost of public transport, talking about the prescription fees that they will now have to pay, talking about how they will be worse off as a result of the choices that that Government has chosen to make in this Budget. So they\u2019ve made very small changes, on one hand, in the tax thresholds, and then they have taken them away on the other. Not only that, they have\u00A0derided\u2014they have derided\u2014ordinary New Zealanders for the things that they choose to spend money on. A Minister talked about the \u201Cfrivolous\u201D things that people spend money on. Frivolous things like prescription charges, frivolous things like public transport, frivolous things like food for their children\u2014characterised them as \u201Cfrivolous\u201D things. How outrageous. It is going to be so much tougher for so many people because of this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EOn Friday evening\u2014Thursday evening or Friday evening\u20141News featured a story about food banks. I took particular notice because Lady Maliena Jones was featured in one of them; she runs a food bank in West Auckland. As it turns out, the Ministry of Social Development sends people along there for food parcels when they need them. On the one hand, people are struggling to get by, looking for Government assistance, but they get sent to a food bank\u2014a food bank which is no longer receiving Government assistance itself. Taking away with one hand\u2014sorry, allegedly giving with one hand, and taking away with the other. It is so hard for people out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo when we look at this Budget, the word for it is \u201Cdevious\u201D. That deviousness extends right through, into some of the stuff that has gone on in the Budget documents\u2014right into this document I\u2019m holding. Sitting in the Budget document, sitting in the revenue strategy, is a claim that a good tax system is one that rewards effort and individuals\u2019 investment in their own skills. Sitting in the regulatory impact statement for the tax threshold changes is the revelation that some people, as a result of this Budget, will face a personal income tax rate of 128 percent. For every single extra dollar they earn, they will be taxed $1.28 because of the changes that have been put in around the tax thresholds and the abatement rates and so on\u2014it\u2019s a complicated place in there. But that example, sitting in the Government\u2019s own documentation, shows that they do not set out to reward hard work and effort. Instead, they create real barriers for ordinary people. That is a devious Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhen we dug into the Budget numbers even further, we found that the examples of families were made-up\u2014created through modelling, while someone tapped away on a calculator. They could not tell us how many families would actually receive each of these alleged changes in the tax threshold. Devious hidden charges on ordinary people. This is a shameful Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002242f1e59936ca44fa8726ff3920785e66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242f1e59936ca44fa8726ff3920785e66\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Thank you. First, I want to acknowledge all of our tamariki mokopuna who have descended upon Nelson\u2014beautiful part of the country\u2014who are performing in their national secondary school kapa haka competitions that started today. My nephew performed today. We wish them all the best and we want them to know that they are champions to all of us already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the other champion team\u2014the Blues\u2014much to the disgust of a lot of Wellington members. I am very proud of the Blues team. But I want to come back to the kapa haka. The reason why I want to come back to the kapa haka is that if the members on the other side of the House simply listened to what our young people are saying\u2014and they\u2019re performing it on the national stage that took place today and will take place over the next couple of days\u2014they are clearly sending a message to this Government that the cuts, that the direction that this Government is taking this country in isn\u2019t the right one for future generations. It is one that looks towards the now and doesn\u2019t look towards the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhen we look towards the Budget, what became abundantly clear to members on this side of the House is that there are two ways to make an impact on the Budget if you\u2019re in the Government. The first one is to be a Minister and bungle a decision, and then, all of a sudden, the Minister of Finance has to scramble to find money and do a pre-Budget announcement because of a bungle by a Minister. That\u2019s one way to do it. The other way to do it is to, simply, break a promise during the election campaign, realise that people\u2019s lives depended on that particular promise, realise the mistake, and then, all of a sudden, start scrambling for next year\u2019s Budget money and make an announcement around the treatment of cancer patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis has been a shambolic Budget process from this Government. We heard repackaged Labour announcements introduced again in this Budget. I want to talk about defence. One of the pre-Budget announcements was \u201COh, we\u2019re going to invest in remuneration.\u201D, which is fantastic. We support that. We started a lengthy process to increase remuneration for our\u00A0New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel. However, the next announcement was\u00A0\u201CAnd we are replacing the Pinzgauer and Unimogs.\u201D That was already well under way under the Labour Government. In fact, we received the first tranche of those replacement vehicles while still in power. Yet we\u2019ve had this repackaged, old announcement put into\u00A0this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe next announcement that came out was: \u201COh, we\u2019re going to continue an investment into the Linton logistics hub.\u201D That was already started, well under way; in fact, the Rt Hon Dame Jacinda Ardern broke ground on that particular project, and it was under way in my tenure as a defence Minister. Now we\u2019ve seen it repackaged again in the appropriations in the most recent Budget. So that tells me that the defence spending from this Government has decreased. It\u2019s simple mathematics. It will decrease to below 1 percent of GDP. Now, on that side of the House, we\u2019ve heard numerous statements from the Prime Minister and members and Ministers saying that, \u201CWe\u2019ve got to replace the 757s. We value the NZDF; they do this amazing work.\u201D They\u2019re just not prepared to invest in them. If we found the way that decision making happens in this Government, what we can do is continue to keep the pressure up to make sure that this Government puts their money where their mouth is when it comes to the replacement of the 757s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI heard today from the Prime Minister that we\u2019ve got to try something new and we\u2019ve got to try something different. In order to pay for the matters that they\u2019ve announced in the Budget, they\u2019ve taken away. One of those things they took away was something new, something different, something innovative, and it was Te Aka Whai Ora. It was made very clear that if you want different results, you had to actually do something different, and that\u2019s what Te Aka Whai Ora was. It was the ambulance at the top of the cliff\u2014or the fence at the top of the cliff, in this case\u2014and not the ambulance at the bottom. I\u2019m really saddened by the decision from this Government to cut that and to put the money elsewhere, when I know that that was going to make a significant difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESome of the words I heard through scrutiny week\u2014cute language, by the way. For example, when questioned on why they were cutting allowances for NZDF personnel to be able to go on and do further study, which is a huge incentive for our NZDF personnel, these were the words that were offered back to me: \u201CWe aren\u2019t making cuts; we are simply\u00A0limiting the allowance.\u201D Hmm! Cute language, to me. That tells our NZDF personnel that this Government doesn\u2019t care about them, will not invest in them, and will not invest in their future, and that can only mean that the NZDF is going backwards. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9b2f84f2e314248b9095bef59996c87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9b2f84f2e314248b9095bef59996c87\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s an absolute pleasure to be back in the House and listening to the dreary stories coming from the other side. It sort of just makes you remember and go \u201CWell, actually, didn\u2019t we just have a Budget 26 days ago which actually provided significant relief to hard-working New Zealanders?\u201D And that is the case. That was the reality 26 day ago. We had an absolutely superb Budget. Nicola Willis, our finance Minister, delivered on our promises to those families across this country. Hard-working Kiwi families are now going to get hard-earned tax relief after a decade of waiting. And this coalition Government has delivered upon its promise to make that a reality. I\u2019m proud of that. I\u2019m proud to be part of a coalition Government that is delivering because, gee, I must say after six long years of non-delivery and neglect, we are now having to tidy up that mess. But I\u2019m proud that we are, and we are embarking on that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EYou know what? The average-income household will be $102 a fortnight better off from 31 July. That is a real addition to those families and for an average-income household it\u2019s going to make a real significant impact. What\u2019s interesting, though\u2014[Interruption] Right; that\u2019s pretty reasonable. That\u2019s a contribution. Do you think that side of the House voted in support of that happening? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282b3bf83d86040d1bca7a4750ca92f7e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Did they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ff2f7ee018c41d78e55bd7b1eaf8992\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: No. No, they didn\u2019t. Labour, the Greens, and Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori voted it down, voted against the tax cuts, and that\u2019s proof that on that other side of the House, they are not facing the reality of what households in this country are facing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe Budget analysis also showed that 727,000 households will benefit by at least $75\u00A0a fortnight and 187,000 will benefit by at least $100 a fortnight. That is a significant element of a contribution versus the status quo. And let\u2019s remember, the status quo is no tax relief and it would have been no tax relief under Labour, Greens, and Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. But this coalition Government has delivered upon the promises that we made. The sum of $3.7\u00A0billion is the amount of tax relief that is going back into the back pockets of hard-working Kiwis. And that is real change and real effect for what is an incredibly important part. And I\u2019m pleased to be part of a Government that has delivered that aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI also am proud, as the Minister of Revenue, that the Inland Revenue Department, who have responsibility to make this a reality, are working very hard to be prepared to do that. They\u2019re doing a great job, and I am looking forward to a matter of weeks away when that money starts to flow into the back pockets of those individuals in particular, and that is going to be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect, in regard to the relief that we provided, was also in the area of FamilyBoost, and that is acknowledging that a significant element of the amount of money that families with young children spend is on early childhood education\u2014a\u00A0significant amount. And, again, this Government heard and listened in terms of the challenges and pressures that those families were under and took the leadership required to be able to provide relief to those families. And so, again, they are going to be able to claim up to about $900 or so a quarter to be able to provide relief to pay for those funds. And that is targeted again to families under a household income of $180 grand. And that is real. That is real money going into the back pockets. Again, in comparison to the status quo of what was being offered on that other side, that was zero. And so that is the reality again for that aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect in terms of the Budget that has been announced previously, as we\u2019ve noted, is that it was against the backdrop of some pretty significant fiscal mismanagement. I mean, it\u2019s hard to sort of explain the reality of what we have inherited in regard to fiscal mismanagement. But every corner you turn\u2014or one turns\u2014there is a significant amount of challenges and issues, and there is wastage all over the place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut this Budget is a clean-up job. It is a clean-up job to make sure that after six years of New Zealand being neglected financially, we are able to start turning around that economic mismanagement and get back on the tracks to making sure that this economy will grow and prosper. And hard-working Kiwis who do that hard work for this country are going to be rewarded as part of that. And that is the right outcome for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regard to some of the key elements within this Budget, there is $1 billion for cyclone relief and resilience. I acknowledge the Hon Mark Mitchell for the work that he does in that portfolio\u2014really, really important. But I tell you what, Minister Mark Mitchell has been on the ground in the regions, continuously working with those communities and $1\u00A0billion to sort that is significant. And I acknowledge the work that you have done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOn my left, or on my right, we\u2019ve got the investment of $2.5 billion of investment in roads, rails, and public transport. The Hon Simeon Brown has led that, and he has inherited a basket case. I think that\u2019s probably the most polite way that you could explain what he has inherited. But he has delivered $2.5 billion of investment, and I know that people in my community of the North Shore and in Auckland and around this country are thankful for the fact that they have actually got, at long last, someone in that seat that actually knows what they\u2019re doing, are going to deliver for hard-working Kiwis, and get more roads built for this country to let this economy get ahead. Isn\u2019t that great to hear?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ELaw and order: well, again, jeez, Mark Mitchell is doing a sterling job in that area with $2.92 billion of extra funding to restore law and order; $69 million of youth offending funding; $194 billion in terms of corrections, and $226 million importantly\u2014importantly\u2014on 500 additional police. I acknowledge the announcements you\u2019ve also made this week about more police on the beat, because I know my community in the North Shore are sick and tired of the crims working like they run our streets. Well, I\u2019m sorry, Minister Mark Mitchell is now back. We have got funding of $2.93 billion extra funding\u2014crims, we\u2019re coming to get you and your period of the happy life is over, and Mark\u2019s going to deal with that and make sure the funding\u2019s there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThose are just a couple of the examples which show the importance. But in my portfolio of climate change, I am very proud that we have been able to ensure that we\u2019ve got additional funding, particularly in the areas of climate adaptation. We know the implications of the impacts of climate change in our regions, in our provinces, in our cities. We saw that last year\u00A0with the Auckland floods in the aspects around Tair\u0101whiti, Hawke\u2019s Bay, and Gisborne,\u00A0etc., and $200 million for flood resilience is an excellent start in what is going to be an area that we are going to need to continue to invest in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s $2.6 billion of climate change investment that we have continued. We\u2019ve done an assessment in terms of what was being spent previously. I\u2019ll be clear: we did stop quite a lot because it wasn\u2019t adding any value. It wasn\u2019t reducing emissions. On this side of the House, we are focused on outcomes and reducing emissions, and we\u2019ve got $2.6 billion to make sure that we deliver on that. We are going to be releasing a clear plan in terms of how\u00A0we deal with the actions around climate change in a matter of weeks. We do have a plan and we do have a strategy, and that is two things that the other side didn\u2019t have. So I can tell you what: who owns climate change and who is taking action and who is going to deliver the outcomes? This side of the House are making the implications and the actions required. And they know it. You can hear them, they know this\u2014they know the reality. I am proud to be able to be part of that and the investment in this Budget is making that a reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve covered off a number of key aspects in regards to that\u2014just a flavour, just a sampler, a sampler within that Budget, and I didn\u2019t even talk about education. In education, under Minister Erica Stanford, there\u2019s $2.93 billion of additional investment to lift educational achievement, and, my goodness, hasn\u2019t it dropped over the last six years? But Erica Stanford\u2019s back in that seat, she is getting into that area, and as a father of young children within the education system, I am, again, proud that we are investing in order to lift educational achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you what, what all that sums up, what all of that says to me and to New Zealanders, no doubt, is that this Government is getting this country back on track. And isn\u2019t that a great thing. Isn\u2019t it great to be part of a Government that\u2019s getting stuff done, getting stuff done that matters to hard-working Kiwis and getting our country back on track, and that is why I\u2019m proud to be part of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c57af6ddc2d24d39a67ff947ffb4b22c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c57af6ddc2d24d39a67ff947ffb4b22c\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This Budget lays the foundation of what ACT campaigned for\u2014real change. You know, travelling up and down the country campaigning, there were two key issues that New Zealanders were facing: cost of living and crime. I\u2019m very proud to say that this Budget addresses those things. This Budget is for the change makers of New Zealand, those people who wake up before dawn to tend to the farm, the people who take a risk to start their own businesses, and the parents who send their children off to school expecting a world-class education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EMy kids were here during the Budget urgency, and when I asked them about what they would do in their Budget, they said, \u201CFree ice cream for all kids.\u201D Well, guess what, kids! We\u2019ve got something better than that; we\u2019ve got $153.3 million to establish charter schools to give you a real good quality choice when it comes to your education. This Budget brings back charter schools to finally give New Zealand families a real choice when it comes to their education. One size does not always fit all, and charter schools will provide the ability for communities to innovate, create education facilities that work for their children\u2014M\u0101ori, Pacific, rural; any community you can think of. Communities know what our children need, and now we will unlock their ability to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EOf course, the Labour Party revelled when they shut down our charter schools, because they believe that the unions and the Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association (PPTA) know what works for children\u2019s education more than the communities of the children in question. I\u2019ll listen to the success stories of the children who felt betrayed by the public school system and went on to charter schools and realised their true potential over the PPTA any day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EThere is $477.6 million to continue the healthy school lunch programme for two years. All of this drama created by the Opposition that we were axing the free lunches for school was just a big ruse. The reality is we were actually saving the programme. The previous Government didn\u2019t even budget or forecast for the coming years. It was a fiscal cliff, like many that the previous Government left us. Not only is the programme continuing but it\u2019s going to be more efficient and more cost-effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EAfter the many years of economic vandalism committed by the Ardern and Hipkins - led Government, we are finally on the right track to empowering our economy once again and supporting Kiwis where it really counts. For the first time in 14 years, we have delivered tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders, letting Kiwis decide how they spend their own money. Radical isn\u2019t it, guys? The Labour Party would disagree with this, thinking that they know better than Kiwis when it comes to how they spend their money. Well, the election results show us that Kiwis are sick of this mind-set. The Government is doing what Kiwi families have been doing\u2014tightening our belts. We\u2019re cutting the back-office bureaucracy bloat in the Public Service, and we\u2019re getting back to the core focus on outcomes for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EThe ACT Ministers have been finding savings everywhere. Just to name a couple, in internal affairs, the Hon Brooke van Velden saved $421 million, eliminating unnecessary programmes and expensive initiatives such as three waters and fair pay agreements. Oranga Tamariki: the Hon Karen Chhour shifted the focus to front-line staff, saving $319.6 million. Education savings: the Hon David Seymour saved $107 million in the school lunch programme. And this is just some of the savings that we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EWe are cutting the bureaucracy and red tape across this country; removing agricultural emissions from the emissions trading scheme; bringing back mortgage interest deductibility because\u2014guess what!\u2014owning a property and renting it is actually a business and you should be entitled to the benefits of running a business; opening up education opportunities with charter schools, bringing back three strikes; and much, much more in order to get New Zealand back on the right path.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EThere is $668.7 million to address youth offending, including a military-style academy pilot. Crime has been out of control in New Zealand. In my suburb alone, robberies and ram raids have just gone out of control under the last Government. Cashmere, Z; the Warehouse, Barrington; Mobil, St Martins; Hornby Mall, Subway, Wigram are just some of the places that have been affected. \u201CBetween January 2017 and January 2024, there was a total of 2,186 ram raids,\u201D Chris Cahill, the New Zealand Police Association president, was quoted last year as saying in response to youth crime in Christchurch. Police are really struggling to deal with this recidivist group of the most serious offenders. Front-line officers feel hamstrung. Well, guess what! Six years of cuddling criminals and playing tag and release is over under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EWe are calling time on the free ride home after a hard night of ram raiding, creating harm and destruction within our communities. Serious youth offenders will now be held accountable for repetitive criminal behaviours, and our children\u2019s Minister, the Hon Karen Chhour, has done an excellent job in this space. Her announcement on Sunday shows how committed she is to giving our young people the right path and a brighter, more productive, and more positive future. We will never accept that it is a normal part of New Zealand life to see headlines about children as young as 11 involved in ram raids.\u00A0In Christchurch, there were some kids as young as eight, even, which is actually quite outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EACT will always go further, whether it is spending reduction or tax reduction. However, we can say with confidence that this Government\u2019s Budget has gone further with ACT as a leader in the team. This Budget is not for the politicians, but for you, the New Zealanders, the change makers who innovate, achieve, and work tirelessly to build a better life, a better country, and a better future for New Zealand. So thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a05360194054149a0057ef64f2ece36\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00220cee3fc7c11a495f9e218db8d03fe8fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cee3fc7c11a495f9e218db8d03fe8fc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the late Hon Paul Goldsmith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002278c8b6eafdbf43d998908abcb7a7c6f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278c8b6eafdbf43d998908abcb7a7c6f4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I thought I had three minutes to go and here we go. It\u2019s great to be here talking in this Budget debate after what has been, I think, a very well-received Budget up and down this country, where people have noticed the feel and experienced the pressures that are on many households after a long period of slow growth with higher interest rates and inflation that we\u2019ve experienced as a country for a long while now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe now have a new Government that is determined to change that and turn that around. But first get inflation under control, which, longer term, leads to lower interest rates and allows people to get more for their money\u2014their weekly pay packet\u2014after all the housing costs that they experience. So that\u2019s the primary reason why this Budget has been a very disciplined Budget after a period of ill-discipline from that fellow called Grant Robertson, that used to hold that post.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESecondly, for the first time in 14 years, this Government, under Nicola Willis, with the leadership of Christopher Luxon and the rest of the coalition team, including my good friend and colleague Shane Jones sitting down the aisle there, is about offering the first tax relief in 14 years so that New Zealanders have more money in their pockets. A lot of people have had adjustments for inflation over the last few years, apart from taxpayers, and they\u2019ve had to pay more and more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m keen to talk about the investment in restoring law and order in this country that comes from this Budget, because the number one issue on the doorsteps was a concern around the cost of living, particularly in Auckland and the Waikato and the northern parts of New Zealand, but also around many parts of New Zealand was a concern around law and order and public safety. People want to feel safe in their communities, and they keep seeing ram raids, retail crime, violent crime increasing, gangs intimidating the population and taking over towns, and they feel unsafe and they\u2019re concerned about the safety of their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThey want a firmer response, and that\u2019s what this Government is delivering through its legislative programme and what it has allowed for in its Budget through extra resources for the police in order to go and catch people. Because one of the most important ways to deal with violent crime\u2014we have a target to reduce the number of victims of crime by 20 percent\u2014is to increase the chances of being caught, and, secondly, once you\u2019re caught, being held to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe first part of that is about giving extra resources to the police to go out there\u2014500\u00A0extra police out on the streets\u2014and making it more likely that people are going to be caught. Secondly, of course, we heard the refrain time and time again when we visited the victims of crime, when we go to the dairies, when we go to the sports shops and the many other retailers around the place who have been the victims of violent crime\u2014the\u00A0number one message that we hear over and again is, \u201CWell, there\u2019s just no consequences. These kids, they caused $50,000 worth of damage to my shop. My insurance has gone up. I\u2019ve been knocked about. We live in fear. We\u2019re feeling put upon and we\u2019re working our guts\u00A0out trying to just make a go of this country and make a living to look after our kids and\u00A0we\u2019re getting set upon time and time in by the same mob and there\u2019s no consequences for them.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo we heard that message and we want to change that. That\u2019s why we\u2019re making changes in so many areas, such as stopping the gravy train cottage industry around cultural reports that have happened. Secondly, we\u2019re giving the police the extra powers that they need to go after gangs, banning gang patches, stopping them sort of gathering in groups, being able to give extra powers to deal with organising crime, and also dealing with the firearms that so threaten our safety in our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019re going to bring back the three-strikes legislation. Now, one of the consequences of bringing three strikes is that it holds our worst repeat offenders in custody, out of harm\u2019s way, for longer. That\u2019s the purpose of it: that if you are a repeat serious offender who has had violent crimes over an extended period of time, we want you off the street so that you can create fewer victims. That\u2019s the purpose of it and that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, secondly, we\u2019re going to deal with the youth crime situation that we\u2019ve inherited. Even\u2014what was the name, Jacinda Ardern?\u2014Jacinda Ardern admitted that we need extra tools to deal with the repeat youth offenders. Because it\u2019s blindingly obvious to everybody that there is a small group\u2014I\u2019ve got four young people in my family; most people in this country, most young people don\u2019t go anywhere near the court system. Actually, overall, youth crime has been falling over the last few decades. Most people do well; they don\u2019t get in trouble. Everything\u2019s fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a small group who do get in trouble and for the majority of that group, the light-touch rehabilitative focus approach that we have\u2014not dragging them through the courts, but actually giving them every opportunity to recognise the gravity of what they\u2019d done and move on\u2014works well. So the vast majority never go near the courts and the vast majority of the ones that do get into trouble, they do it once and they\u2019re never seen or heard of again. So the light-touch system works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut there is a small group\u2014a small group\u2014where that doesn\u2019t work. They are the serious repeat youth offenders who are doing the ram raids in our community, bringing in aggravated attacks with hammers, and causing chaos in our retail space, in particular. That\u2019s the group where we need some different tools, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re introducing the Young Serious Offender category which dials up the consequences for them. It may, instead of a pat on the head and \u201CWe\u2019ll see you again next weekend\u201D, be an ankle bracelet or it might be juvenile facilities because there has to be consequences for serious crime. Secondly, we\u2019re providing for some military academies. Again, it\u2019s a different approach, another tool, that the judiciary can use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, people will say, \u201COh well, you\u2019re only interested in punitive reactions.\u201D Well, yes, a little bit of punitive reaction is required, but nobody has ever suggested that\u2019s the only thing we\u2019re doing, because we\u2019re also focused on dealing with those long-term issues of crime. But you got to do both: you can\u2019t do one or the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EYou can\u2019t just focus on long-term issues and think that everything is going to be solved, because you\u2019ve got to deal with the problem right here, right now, on our streets and in our shops\u2014those who are wielding the claw hammer and causing the damage. But long term, we\u2019ve got to deal with a catastrophic rise in truancy that we\u2019ve seen and the fact that 3,000 kids are waking up in emergency accommodation. And we need to work on those long-term housing, mental health, and addiction issues as well. So that\u2019s what this Government is certainly focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI just want to also just mention the arts before the end of my speech. I just want to just make the point that against a strong ripping tide where it has been a tough Budget, we held our ground. One of the great contributions we made was through Te Matatini and the kapa haka, and I was up in Ruat\u014Dria and I met with T\u0101 Selwyn Parata this weekend and they\u2019re very proud of that and we\u2019re pleased to make that contribution. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022553f701e60124d1bb3640f5750091dbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022553f701e60124d1bb3640f5750091dbb\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E My contribution to this debate is framed in the way I grew up\u2014a product from the school of hard knocks. This Budget most certainly was designed to enable us to put our hands around the throat of expansionary expenditure of an operational nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, just remember where we\u2019ve come from: monetary policy that sunk to a global low; money printed as if a fiddler\u2019s elbow was turbocharged; fiscal policy that was loose as a goose. The Budget now is constructed in very straitened circumstances: number one, there is no monetary saviour coming our way. It\u2019s evident from the Governor of the Reserve Bank that he is going to hold the line and that interest rates are only going to drop bit by bit. And the Crown, through this Budget, is confronted by the fact that if we continue the profligate approach enjoyed by the last regime, the ratings agencies will come knocking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo, then, what is the Government to do? First, strip unnecessary regulatory barriers from those who are willing to invest\u2014boost their confidence, grow the certainty so that they will invest. How do we do that? As reflected in the expenditure items of the Budget, move on with a far more permissive resource management process that gives people the confidence when they make a commitment, they\u2019ll actually get an approval before they get the gold card.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESecondly, give a greater degree of confidence to people that already have businesses that they will actually be able to invest without suffering too many penalties. And what\u2019s the response to that? The response is the fast-track bill, which, by the way, now has a majority of New Zealanders supporting it. Forget about all the apocryphal tales from the other side of the House. Forget about the fact that they left the deadweight hand of bureaucracy upon the economy. We are stripping all that away and we are introducing investors back to our natural legacy of mining, of fishing, of horticulture, where we are going to meet what the world wants. The world wants food, the world wants rare minerals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, of course, I can hear it now. My opponents, large in volume, small in number, will cry that somehow we\u2019re compromising Papat\u016B\u0101nuku by actually going on to the Department of Conservation (DOC) estate and mining. The DOC estate covers an inordinate amount of New Zealand and it\u2019s overrun by rats and weasels and pests, etc. It\u2019s tailor-made for a new approach so that extractive sector investments can take place in appropriate places on the DOC estate, and this Budget, by contributing to the costs of passing the fast-track legislation, improving the Resource Management Act, is going to deliver an overdue dividend for regional New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EYes, there will be a loud number of minority voices, but they are only a tiny fraction of the New Zealand public. Yes, there were people covered in Gaza scarves and other such detritus walking up Queen Street. They don\u2019t represent New Zealand; they represent that tiny portion of the public who want to dislodge this Government. We are not going to allow the economy to be continually assailed by all of these catastrophising stories. We are going to turn on the engines of growth. How we\u2019re going to do that is not only through stripping red tape; we are going to work on a process of co-investment. And it falls to me, with my characteristic modesty, to remind everyone that we have the $1.2 billion fund which will help boost the productivity, develop the resilience of the regions of our motu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, there were a few critics who didn\u2019t quite like the administration of an earlier fund. Fortunately, now they\u2019re my dearest friends. In fact, I feel a whole lot of applications coming from certain members who may have had a doubting Thomas approach in the past. Oh, the winds of change, they do bring various beneficial offerings from time to time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAnother thing I\u2019d like to focus on is that we can\u2019t create a prosperous economy unless we modernise our infrastructure. But how do we modernise our infrastructure unless we can give investors, contractors, a sense of confidence that they\u2019ll not only get an approval but there is an agenda to blend private and public capital to accelerate the delivery of infrastructure. But what is the community looking for, in a commercial sense? It\u2019s looking for a long-term, broad range of projects so that capital can be mobilised, labour can be mobilised. And we have a long-term pipeline that will be delivered through the fast-track legislation which is wending its way through the Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAs I said to a number of loud but largely dislocated voices in Thames the other day, improvements\u2014I don\u2019t want to mention any names\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022398fad0e7bbe474da49002100e00b2f6\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Catherine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224ae72c5f73f4557a856f55fee164e3c\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Apparently I\u2019m not allowed to refer to that person by that name. But those who were present, and, in particular, the person that you mention, their criticism of modernising infrastructure, I\u2019ve described as belonging to the \u201CFlintstone School of Economics\u201D. And what is their response when I go out and I actually meet with that tiny minority of loud Luddites who do not want us to develop mining, who do not want oil and gas? What do they say to me? Something akin to \u201Cyabba dabba do\u201D. We cannot back down when our economic circumstances are so dire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI want to finish my contribution off on the M\u0101ori side, beyond this Budget. The Waitangi Tribunal is overdue for a haircut, what we call in Kait\u0101ia a \u201Ckinacut\u201D. It not only needs better members, it needs a writ that brings it up sharp very quickly. In my view, it has no business entertaining concepts or undertaking inquiries to do with the constitution. That\u2019s the business of directly elected parliamentarians such as ourselves. So I look forward, during the course of the life of this Budget, to work taking place to bring the Waitangi Tribunal to a spot where, hopefully, both sides of the House can accept that it may have a role, but it is not the wandering, not the convolvulus, not the expansionary writ it is giving itself. And stop saying that the Treaty should only be known as Te Tiriti. The Treaty of Waitangi cannot be dismembered. The Treaty of Waitangi is a bilingual, bicultural, inseparable document. And this dangerous ideology pushed around by the party who\u2019s currently engulfed in about five or six reviews\u2014so they\u2019re going to be busy on other matters for a while to come\u2014should not gather traction in terms of how we view the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESimilarly, a change that, no doubt, will be ushered through during the course of this Budget, paid for by this Budget, will be reframing what is the extent, what is the width and the breadth of the seabed and foreshore legislation. That legislation, decisions made under that legislation, cannot continue if they have the effect of chilling, undermining, infrastructure development. The notion that when we expand our ports, as is the case of Tauranga, they are consistently and constantly having to pay a toll in order to keep the local claimants of the Takutai Moana brigade happy is not only offensive, it must be halted immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe final thing I\u2019d say on this matter to do with M\u0101ori elements and the Budget: co-governance is gone; co-investment is in. If you want to know one reason why we\u2019re sitting here and they\u2019re sitting there, they allowed that viral, intimidating, undermining policy of co-governance to go into the recesses both of the State and policy where it didn\u2019t belong. Consequently, it will no longer blight or undermine the delivery of policy. I say again, the Treaty, our citizenship, is indivisible. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002259f5703a8b7e4a1892fabf5db816ad70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259f5703a8b7e4a1892fabf5db816ad70\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Here\u2019s four things about this Budget\u2019s impact on the health system that all New Zealanders need to know. The first is that the Government has been shamed into keeping its cancer medicine promise. I want to shout out to all the patient advocates who held their feet to the fire for three long weeks post-Budget, who demanded that they meet their commitments, and who pointed out the cruel and manipulative thing that has been done: making a promise to people with terminal illness during the election campaign and not following through. But has it kept its promise? Actually, no. It is not purchasing the 13 named medicines. It\u2019s giving Pharmac medicine to work down the options for investment list. Whose promise was that? That was Labour\u2019s promise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn fact, when I went up and down the country with Dr Reti, pointing out the problems with his commitment, pointing out that he had left out haematology patients, pointing out that it would undermine the independence of Pharmac, pointing out that it would reduce the ability to strike a good deal, what did he do? He ignored it. What did he do when he came into Government? He ignored it. He persisted with his idea that he could do things differently. What was he saying at the Health Committee up until a few days ago? That he was going to do this some other way, that he was still contemplating an alternative. Well, every single week he did that meant people didn\u2019t get their medicines. It was foolish and it was unnecessary. Now it\u2019s left the finance Minister in the position of rewriting Budget 2025 three weeks after she\u2019s delivered Budget 2024. This is a coalition of chaos.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe second thing you need to know is that funding for the health system has come down in real terms. Each New Zealander is getting 4 percent less spent on them in their healthcare than they were in the last Budget. That is because the Government did not take new advice on the true cost pressures on the health system when they came into Government. Te Whatu Ora told us at annual review that the true cost pressures have increased from those estimated before the election, but the Government didn\u2019t fund it. The Minister of Health couldn\u2019t give a straight answer to our select committee on that, but the Council of Trade Unions have done the work: a 4 percent cut for every New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe third thing every New Zealander needs to know about the health system in this Budget is that as a result of the previous funding cut, there is a hiring freeze in public hospitals, there is a hiring freeze for back-office staff. That means that doctors and nurses are having to find their own notes, schedule their own clinics, do all the admin that takes them away from caring for people. We also hear reports of clinical vacancies, front-line roles being cut, vacancies not being filled, critical shortages at Palmerston North oncology department not being filled. Remember the promise that this Government was going to put money towards the front line? Well, it seems like that is not the case in the health system. There\u2019s a surgical hospital on the North Shore of Auckland that they cannot staff because of this hiring freeze in public hospitals, and when they do staff it, they\u2019re going to move staff from one ward, in an existing hospital, to another. There\u2019ll be no increase in capacity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EHalf the funding for medical students they promised\u2014no nursing and midwifery bonding scheme. By the way, if you\u2019re a graduate nurse, the Government can\u2019t give a clear answer on what your chance of getting a job in a New Zealand hospital is. It\u2019s a disgrace. This Government campaigned on there being a workforce crisis, and now the workforce is going backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe fourth thing you need to know is that it\u2019s going to cost you more to go to the doctor\u2014that\u2019s right. Dr Reti made lots of hints about funding primary care more, the ACT Party campaigned on a 13 percent increase for primary care, and what have they delivered? Four percent. And practices are allowed to, in compensation, put their prices up. So that\u2019s costs on to the people at home\u2014you\u2019re going to pay more to go to the doctor because of this Government\u2019s underfunding of the health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ENow, look, I get it; running the health system is hard. We face so many challenges with the workforce, with rising demand. It is a very tough job. In that situation, why wouldn\u2019t you use the best science and expert advice to run the system better? Why wouldn\u2019t you keep world-changing smoke-free legislation so that you\u2019d have fewer people coming in for smoking-related illnesses? Why wouldn\u2019t you keep free prescriptions? Why wouldn\u2019t you support nutritious, healthy lunches? This Budget is taking New Zealand and its health system backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022a29c5d74440c4f029da9ce8dfae15d56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a29c5d74440c4f029da9ce8dfae15d56\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Very much like what\u2019s happening in the health system, the education system is also suffering from this Budget. It\u2019s only just on an hour ago, when I was talking to a parents\u2019 support group of young people with neurodiverse needs, that they were practically crying on that Zoom call to me about the lack of support that they have seen in this Budget for them and their young people. In fact, many of them on that call said to me that this Budget has nothing that will encourage inclusion in their young people\u2019s learning pathways. It was a real, real shame, and I felt such sadness for those people, of the experiences that their young people are facing at the moment, and them as parents as they\u2019re moving towards inclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EOne of the aspects that I think is absolutely criminal is the letting go of the people that have been supporting them and their young people towards an inclusive education pathway over the last few years. They talked about the work that had been done by the Ministry of Education and Whaikaha to build together towards that very much inclusive system\u2014a system where we want to see young people in their mainstream classrooms, where their teachers understand the needs of those young people, where the support staff understand and are able to include those young people in every aspect of the schooling life, and particularly where those young people feel valued and where they have success in their schooling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThat work had been ongoing, work that had come out of the Highest Needs Review, and yet we know from speaking to the people that were at the Ministry of Education who were leading that work that those people have been let go. I got very\u2014well, non-answers last week from the Minister and the Ministry of Education about where that work is heading. In fact, in this Budget, when you look at target students as a whole, there is $5\u00A0million less in this Budget than what there was in the last Budget for our target students. That does not sound to me like a Government that is committed to inclusion and to making certain that every young person in the schooling system, in the education system, will experience success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EAlso, Madam Speaker, I heard exactly the same in your home patch yesterday when I was in Hokitika and Greymouth. Principals said to me that they could see nothing in there that was for the young people that they are seeing constantly, on a daily basis, coming through the doors of their schools, and they felt aggrieved that there was no support that was coming through that would help those young people be included within the schooling space, but also to support the teachers with the professional development for those young people. Yet we hear constantly this stream that \u201CWe\u2019re a Government that\u2019s committed to including all young people and to learning support.\u201D I\u2019m calling on that\u2014that is not right. When you\u2019re seeing that a Budget has $5 million less than the last Budget, that is not a Government that is committed to learning support in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThen we see that there is no money for that but we have $153 million set aside for charter schools\u2014privatisation by a slow drip. We hear this political distraction: \u201CThat will help those young people that don\u2019t fit into school.\u201D Well, we\u2019re talking about a very small student population, but we also know that there\u2019s already people that are lining up and companies lining up to put their interests forward in becoming part of those charter schools\u2014companies that are already making money out of early childhood, which isn\u2019t a slow drip of privatisation; it\u2019s a very fast drip of privatisation in this country. It scares me and so many other people that are very heavily involved in education that we would see this coming through into the compulsory sector as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThis is going to be the biggest undermining of a quality public education that we would ever see, and I am very much committed to fighting for that quality public education system. How can anybody justify spending that amount of money on a very small number of young people who possibly would succeed in school anyway over those young people who are really struggling to be included in the schooling pathways?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThen the speaker prior to me, my colleague the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall, talked about the school lunches. I spoke to people in Dobson yesterday about the school lunches and how much of a difference it makes to their young people. Next year, the year 7s and 8s in those schools are going to go without those lunches where the year 0s to 6s will continue on. That is not right. Those year 7s and 8s will be excluded from a programme that is making a huge difference to them at this point in time. It\u2019s gone from a lunch to a snack. This Budget is taking education backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022201dfbd26e814f0f8f2f2d2da52022bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022201dfbd26e814f0f8f2f2d2da52022bc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, this debate is interrupted. We will suspend for the dinner break and resume at 7.30. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0d1036a31454a19b761f59e74f2fbc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0d1036a31454a19b761f59e74f2fbc9\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed. Before the dinner break, we were speaking on the Appropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill and the amendment proposed to\u00A0it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022536a9efc7a84491ea4b96abfa51acdb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022536a9efc7a84491ea4b96abfa51acdb0\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That this debate be now adjourned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224439b6533cbe449eaac0658675152e0b\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022870b4978745341b8afd250c5b49edf20\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00221b6cc8c66483465a89341188e3e5c900\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b6cc8c66483465a89341188e3e5c900\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the remaining stages of the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the introduction and passing through all stages of the Imprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill; the remaining stages of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill; the second reading of the Corrections Amendment Bill; the first readings and referrals to a select committee of the Education and Training Amendment Bill, the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill, and the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill; the passing through all stages of the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill; the first reading and referral to a select committee of the Overseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill; the passing\u00A0through all stages of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill; and the first reading and referral to a select committee of the Therapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re moving urgency tonight to complete three bills left over from Budget night. In addition to that, we\u2019re including other bills that we had scheduled for this week that, due to the nature of the singular sitting week and the Budget debate, are required to be included in this motion. The Supplementary Estimates and first imprest supply bill have to be passed before the end of the financial year; it\u2019s a standard part of the Budget cycle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe ACC bill makes it explicit that ACC can charge debit interest where levies are paid by instalments; there is some current ambiguity in the legislation, and we did hope to tidy up that part of the law before the House rose just after the Budget. That wasn\u2019t possible for a range of reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe forests log traders bill reduces a regulatory burden and removes unnecessary compliance costs. The land transport bill is required to be done as soon as possible to provide certainty for the vehicle industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also sending five bills to select committee: the education and training bill to establish charter schools; re-establishing three strikes; repealing the Therapeutic Products Act, which is, of course, a New Zealand First - National coalition commitment; taking agriculture out of the emissions trading scheme; and making build-to-rent developments easier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aeadd6605724d86970ca41326e20697\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ab9a1e67e7f4d849e1e888c8adc5515\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c056d1438f24ca1b0991b3a2ec8bafc\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I had just started a vote\u2014I had started a vote. I can take your point of order after the vote, but I had actually started a vote, Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002270cee398b9a54c448884c03a0175f3a2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad39f38eaa8a4ce49ccad03ebe830bd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad39f38eaa8a4ce49ccad03ebe830bd5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. My point of order was that the Minister, in signalling urgency\u2014which he\u2019s entitled to do under Standing Order 57\u2014ran through a list of legislation and largely told us what it did. It\u2019s a longstanding convention and Standing Order of this House that in respect of each of those bills, he needs to explain why they are urgent. We have five bills\u2014routine bills\u2014going to select committee which don\u2019t have any particular urgency, and, if there is, the Minister certainly didn\u2019t tell us what they were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002209de290d59d24965b0c4de6e9b9b7ecb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209de290d59d24965b0c4de6e9b9b7ecb\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order. The member\u2019s wrong on two points. Firstly, the requirement for urgency to have reasons is a recent practice. From memory, it came in in the Standing Orders review after 2017. So it\u2019s not a longstanding convention of the House. The member needs to familiarise himself with Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point is that Standing Orders requires the mover of the urgency motion to give reasons. I gave extensive reasons. I\u2019d encourage the member to reflect back on past moving of urgency by the Hon Chris Hipkins, in which he just, basically, said words to the effect of \u201CWe\u2019re the Government. We can do what we like.\u201D I\u2019ve actually provided a whole range of different reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222a4abf4916ab4ea1bcb189d8b2d6881e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a4abf4916ab4ea1bcb189d8b2d6881e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Bishop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6315b91cad940cb889e68ad81430bf1\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227be081c684144589b39983716a73aad5\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222f58348ac270451bab10e81224201c77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f58348ac270451bab10e81224201c77\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand it\u2019s the Government\u2019s intention to introduce an imprest supply bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00227bd878dd10bb4c3d8432b9f041cd076c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bd878dd10bb4c3d8432b9f041cd076c\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Imprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222b89a7504fb44cee9221781fca90811f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b89a7504fb44cee9221781fca90811f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for first reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1ff431b50af4ce9aeed95d1ce58fc0a\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0abb223753d40c0badc148900fc1a41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0abb223753d40c0badc148900fc1a41\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022725d902cb304406fa787119538cb81dd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000587\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022138ca73628cc4f4594b4371d4d6a0ef7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022138ca73628cc4f4594b4371d4d6a0ef7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002232999c63420b48aba61592800d9ea598\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002232999c63420b48aba61592800d9ea598\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022594f483f305d4192b8af286224a524b0\u0022\u003ESecond Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00223a76fa8e652f4ba49c0ec04e8fa78a96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a76fa8e652f4ba49c0ec04e8fa78a96\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThese two bills are quite technical, so I think it would assist the House if I explain what each of them is and what purpose they serve. The overriding principle here, as set out in legislation in the Public Finance Act, is that the Government cannot incur expenses or capital expenditure without Parliament\u2019s authority. The Budget for 2024-25 was released and had its second reading on Budget day, 30 May. However, it won\u2019t actually be passed until later this year. The purpose, then, of the imprest supply bill is to bridge that gap between the start of the new financial year on 1 July and the point at which the House confirms the Budget. More precisely, this bill provides financial authority to incur expenses and capital expenditure for the first three months of the 2024-25 financial year, before the passing of the Appropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn addition, it is standard practice for imprest supply bills to cover the possibility that fiscal risks materialise and to also allow for the uncertain timing and spread of expenditure. The overall amount being sought in this bill is consistent with the amounts sought in previous years. The imprest supply bill seeks authority for the Government to incur a maximum of $34 billion in expenses, $6 billion in capital expenditure, and $1\u00A0billion in capital injections. So that is the purpose of the imprest supply bill\u2014it is an interim spending authority. As its name reveals, it is the first imprest supply bill for this financial year, 2024-25, and there will be a second imprest supply bill later this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe imprest supply bill is forward-looking, whereas the Supplementary Estimates bill is all about the past. It seeks Parliament\u2019s approval of changes to appropriations and some new appropriations which occurred in the 2023-24 financial year. These are changes that the Government agreed to between April 2023, when the 2023-24 Estimates were finalised, and April 2024, when the 2023-24 Supplementary Estimates were finalised. So spending against those appropriations has already been incurred under the authority of imprest supply. However, this spending must then be confirmed by Parliament before the end of the 2023-24 financial year\u2014that is, by 30 June, or four days from now. Otherwise, it becomes unauthorised, which is something I think members would want to avoid, although I can see there\u2019s at least one member sitting opposite me who has been involved in unauthorised expenditure. The Finance and Expenditure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3c59ff3d35464786907f9b74a00775\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so unnecessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9c7e576219c4c709a891453529e2636\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Ihum\u0101tao comes to mind. The Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back on the 2023-24 Supplementary Estimates and has no matters, I understand, to bring to the attention of the House. It recommends that these Supplementary Estimates be accepted. I thank the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their prompt scrutiny and their report on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI said before that the Supplementary Estimates cover changes that the Government agreed to for 2023-24. In fact, there were, of course, two Governments in that financial year, and the change of Government part way through that year makes the Supplementary Estimates bill a little more interesting than usual. In particular, many changes relate to the decisions the coalition Government took at the mini-Budget in December and at the Budget in May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ETogether, Budget 2024 and the mini-Budget reduced spending in the 2023-24 financial year. Actually, within weeks of coming to office, this Government managed to make changes that, even with a little bit of that financial year left to go, saved $1.1 billion. That is $1.1\u00A0billion, hard earned by New Zealanders working hard in their jobs, their businesses, and their communities. We saved them that money, and those changes are reflected in the Supplementary Estimates bill. In part, the Government was able to make significant savings because, as I said, we got on to things very early with a mini-Budget in December, soon after the coalition was formed, judging the urgency of stopping some programmes of expenditure in order to ensure those dollars could be reprioritised to better uses at a later date, including, for example, uses such as funding cancer medications and funding medicines for New Zealanders who would otherwise miss out\u2014175,000 New Zealanders, no less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EMembers may recall that the mini-Budget, among other things, included stopping work\u00A0on Labour\u2019s so-called industry transformation plans\u2014I\u2019m not sure a tear has been wept for them\u2014stopping work on the Lake Onslow pumped hydro idea, otherwise known\u00A0as Dr Woods\u2019 white elephant; stopping work on Labour\u2019s income insurance scheme, otherwise known as the jobs tax; repealing mandatory union-style agreements across industries in a back-to-the-1970s move, otherwise called, in Labour\u2019s strange use of the word, \u201Cfair\u201D pay agreements; and exiting the Crown\u2019s contributions to the highly controversial Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving, which had the grand effect of slowing Wellington down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EOther savings that affected the 2023-24 year were made as part of the Budget process, with some being part of the 100-day plan\u2014for example, repeal of the three waters programme. That returned $270 million in the 2023-24 financial year alone. Sadly, we didn\u2019t come into Government in time to save the $1.2 billion\u2014$1.2 billion, ladies and gentlemen\u2014that had already been wasted on that programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThere are many more changes, both spending and saving, in the Supplementary Estimates. I said at the beginning that these bills are technical. They are technical, but they are also very important to New Zealand\u2019s public finances. They are part of the system that\u00A0 ensures the Government has the proper authority from Parliament to incur expenditure. I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002260b4d5348c6e4fb08f9510ee9b27e77c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260b4d5348c6e4fb08f9510ee9b27e77c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b05b91500ae34f6188f7740b71c14b0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b05b91500ae34f6188f7740b71c14b0d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Labour will not be supporting this bill in the House, because what the coalition Government is asking us to do with supporting these two bills that look both forwards and backwards is to cast a vote in favour of a programme of work that is taking New\u00A0Zealand backwards. This is a programme of work that will not help ordinary New Zealanders, it will not help New Zealanders get ahead, and it is not something that we are willing to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, what we heard from the Minister of Finance laid out very clearly the technical nature of these two bills and the fact that we do need to pass them because the executive does need Parliament\u2019s consent to continue spending until the Budget is formally passed later in the year, and the Supplementary Estimates is an important document that show those changes to appropriations from when Budgets are set to year end and what happened. Usually, this is a chance to do things like, for example, in the tertiary education Vote. Where an Estimate is made, they are just that: Estimates are about the enrolments that will happen over a period of time, and it\u2019s not until enrolments are there that things do need to be changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Finance, I see, couldn\u2019t rise above her snark tonight in the House in terms of the need, sometimes, to make corrections in Supplementary Estimates. This is something that is a usual process in terms of the workings of this House, and I think it would do all of us good if the debate could be lifted on this and that we could have a real debate about the choices that are being made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn both the backwards-looking and the forwards-looking document, we are seeing laid bare the kinds of choices that a newly elected Government makes, because, of course, the Supplementary Estimates, after an election that has brought about a change of Government, really do tell a story about the changes that that Government has brought into being, and the Minister of Finance alluded to that, talking about the mini-Budget and the $1.1 billion that was shaved off there. All of these are contained in the Supplementary Estimates. These are otherwise known as \u201Cwhat the National Government or the coalition Government has cut\u201D, and the list is long. We can see, laid bare, the values of this Government in these cuts. We can see cuts that will increase child poverty, we will see cuts that will increase unemployment, we can see cuts that slice $3 billion worth out of climate action, and we can see cuts that will take New Zealand backwards, and that is what is very clearly laid out in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to focus on a couple of votes that are covered off in the Supplementary Estimates. If we have a look through, one of the most depressing things while reading through the analysis of the Supplementary Estimates is the amount that all of these are decreased by. This is a Government that has cut and has come in and undone. Really, the Budget showed they haven\u2019t got much vision of what they are going to do, and I think we see that reflected by the way New Zealanders are responding to this Government. The majority either believe things are going to get worse for them, or they don\u2019t know what\u2019s going to happen. It is not a Budget that has inspired hope, it is not a Budget that has made New Zealanders feel confident about their future, and it is no surprise when you read through the list of cuts in the Supplementary Estimates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Finance seemed to wear it as a badge of honour that this was an incoming Government that cut a programme of work about New Zealand\u2019s future energy security, because not only did they scrap investigating whether Lake Onslow was a good scheme\u2014fair call. They won an election. It\u2019s their call to make\u2014not one I agree with, but they were elected, and that is their decision to make. But what the Supplementary Estimates lay bare is that they scrapped the entire work programme around fuel storage, around not only what we\u2019re going to do into the future to make sure that we can give New Zealanders the most affordable energy that both their businesses and their homes can receive in the form of renewables but also how we\u2019re going to ensure that the lights stay on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, we hear a lot from this Government\u2014and we heard it from the Prime Minister, today, in question time\u2014showing they really do not understand this issue. The fact that it takes somewhere between 10 and 16 years to bring a newly granted gas exploration permit to fruition of production\u2014they seem to think that that is the sure-fire, quick solution to New Zealand\u2019s energy security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat that shows is that this is a Government with no plan and it is a Government with no vision, and the fact that we have a Minister of Finance, who is meant to take some kind of long-term view of New Zealand\u2019s security, wearing it as a badge of pride that they have cut in this Budget, as is made formal in these Supplementary Estimates, all the money that was put aside for looking at our future fuel security in terms of the battery project, because it wasn\u2019t all about pumped hydro. It\u2019s about time that we heard a peep out of this Government about what they\u2019re going to replace it with, because I think what New Zealanders are growing very tired of very quickly is hearing only what this coalition Government is going to cut and very little detail\u2014next to no detail\u2014on what they\u2019re actually going to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhy are they sitting in those chairs? What is their vision and what do they hope to achieve for New Zealand, because all New Zealanders are seeing is a programme of work that is taking New Zealand backwards\u2014a series of bad choices that are being laid bare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe also see in here, in the appropriation, decreased by $507 million, the work to partner with businesses to cut our emissions. In these Supplementary Estimates, we have a Government who has made a choice that they are going to go and pay other countries to decrease their emissions in the form of buying international credits at\u2014who knows?\u2014$100\u00A0or $200 a tonne, which is probably the best estimate, rather than partnering with New Zealand businesses to keep well-paid, highly skilled industrial jobs in New Zealand, such as at New Zealand Steel. This is no subsidy; this is a good economic deal for the Government. We have yet to hear from this Government where they\u2019re going to go and buy a carbon credit for $18 a tonne, which is what it costs in terms of the New Zealand Steel deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut, again, with pride in these Supplementary Estimates, we see this Government that has ripped the guts out of our climate action. We see a Government that has no plan to reduce our emissions at home. We see a Government that is burying its head in the sand when it comes to climate change, and to take $3 billion of climate action out in a single Budget is something about which members opposite need to hang their heads in shame. They need to explain to future generations why it is they are putting their futures in jeopardy, because that is what this Budget and these Supplementary Estimates show: that they are a Government that is intent on taking us backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut, more concerningly, they are putting future generations\u2019 futures at risk by what they are doing. They are putting it at risk in terms of not only the health of our planet but also the future of work and job security\u2014the fact that people can have some security and how it is they\u2019re going to make a living. With swipes of the Minister of Finance\u2019s and the Prime Minister\u2019s pens, they have taken away that security. They have consigned New Zealand to an uncertain future, and they are taking us backwards. I think that those members who are occupying the seats opposite are going to have some explaining to do to future generations about what they did in this moment of history, because it is reprehensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s just one vote. Then you move on to housing, and you see the kind of money being taken out of M\u0101ori housing. You see money being taken out of progressive homeownership, and you see this is a Government that is building fewer State houses than any Government in decades. Take away even just community housing, and the previous Government, every year in six years, built more than 750 community housing places. They are going backwards when it comes to housing. New Zealand was starting to get on top of a housing crisis, but we have a programme of work that has made incredibly bad choices laid bare in these Supplementary Estimates that will be a burden for future generations to bear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00229d8f879c8cc442a4913fff7f55142177\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d8f879c8cc442a4913fff7f55142177\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. For those following along at home, we are currently debating two pieces of legislation in this one debate tonight. We are debating the Imprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill and the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ENow, as the Minister herself alluded in her introductory remarks as we began this reading, what\u2019s interesting about this Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill is that, typically, it would just be a bit of a clean-up job for extra expenses that had occurred at the end of the Budget period for the Government as it had been coming out of office as one would expect with this transitional change of Government. However, what is rather more interesting and, therefore, concerning to the Greens and why we will be opposing this, among the raft of measures contained within it, is, as the Minister herself spelled out, that particularly this Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill contains within it the financial decisions that the Government made in its mini-Budget at the end of last year, 2023. Those 15 programmes that the Government decided to stop would have made a material impact towards the wellbeing and benefit of New Zealanders and towards people and planet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI just want to echo some of the sentiments that we\u2019ve heard from the Hon Dr Megan Woods here: this Budget, in its fulsome context, is not a vision for the prosperity, for the future, for the wellbeing of this country and the people that live within it, but this Budget represents a shredder, and nowhere could that be more apparent than in the 15 programmes that were stopped, as included in this Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. Let\u2019s just go through a handful of those pieces because I think part of what this Government did moving so quickly when it first came into office was that it knew that a lot of the programmes that it was undertaking or that it was cutting\u2014it knew that the stuff that it was doing was, fundamentally, actually unpopular. It\u2019s why, if we recall, they decided to push through as quickly as possible those changes to the smoke-free legislation. But, as contained within this legislation, there are things like the quick and paced removal of the 20 hours free early childhood education. This Government would argue, of course, that they\u2019ve now replaced it with their own policy of FamilyBoost, and I can hear some heckling probably to that effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI just wanted to unpack that for context for the House, because we recently, just last week, had something called \u201Cscrutiny week\u201D, a new initiative in our House of Parliament, which allows us to speak to Ministers, such as our Minister of Finance and our Minister of Revenue. And in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, we actually spent quite a long time talking about the Government\u2019s policy of FamilyBoost. And I put a pretty straightforward question to our Minister of Revenue, who is responsible for implementing that policy through the Inland Revenue Department\u2014his agency, that he is obviously responsible for as the Minister of Revenue. I asked the Minister if the intention of the FamilyBoost policy\u2014noting that this stands in stark contrast to 20 hours free early childhood education\u2014from the Government side of things is not to lower the cost of living; the intention of the FamilyBoost policy is to pay families who meet the threshold criteria a maximum of $75 per week towards their early childhood costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis is a really important difference because this difference belies the fact that the Government is actually not paying any attention whatsoever to whether this policy will result in price gouging by early childhood private providers. That is a really important and salient point here, because it means that the efficacy of that policy can only be judged by the fact that they\u2019re sending $75 out a week per family that is eligible, not by whether the cost of living for New Zealand families has decreased.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s just deal with that\u2014the fact that this 20 hours free early childhood education being removed in this mini-Budget, as represented in the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, is diabolical, especially when put in contrast to the evidently ineffectual FamilyBoost policy, which will only serve to bid up the price of early childhood education in this country. Interestingly enough, as was also canvassed in contrast at scrutiny week just last week with the Minister of Revenue as well, this mini-Budget, as represented in the Supplementary Estimates bill, also removed depreciation for commercial buildings. Now, I think that there\u2019s a really interesting parallel here, especially on the brightline test, which is also contained within this, but not the changes that the Government has made when it comes to tax deductibility for landlords.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EOn the notion or on the argument of tax deductibility for landlords and the ability for that to be applied, the Government\u2019s rationale has been that they believe that\u2014just like any other business where you can have tax deductibility; or interest deductibility, rather\u2014we\u00A0should have the same apply for those who decide to invest in rental properties as landlords. I put that question to the Minister in contrast to what is contained within this piece of legislation around how\u2014well, if you can see that there is depreciation costings that you can put against any other kind of business, why would you then decide to, if you\u2019re being logically consistent, remove it from commercial buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIt would come as no surprise to you or any other member of this House that the Minister of Revenue did not have an answer, and he referred us to the coalition agreements, which once again goes to show that the thing that trumps for this Government is not logical consistency, is not an evidence basis, but it is indeed their political leanings. Also contained within this legislation is the killing off of the likes of the Climate Emergency Response Fund and the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry funding, which the Hon Dr Megan Woods spent a long time talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis, interestingly, also stands in stark contrast to some questions put to the Minister of Finance, the Hon Nicola Willis, at scrutiny week just last week, on the fact that the Government has said time and time again that they do not like to do what they consider to be corporate welfare when it comes to decarbonising our economy. However, underneath the emissions trading scheme, which is the system that this Government wants to put all of its eggs in the basket of in order to curb our emissions, the Government wants to do the mitigation part of climate action, but they are not willing to remove those free allocation units for polluters to pollute. So, again, we have yet another logical inconsistency where they\u2019re more than happy to remove the funding available in this legislation here. They have made the decision to remove the funding for decarbonising our economy, but then, on the other hand, within the broader Budget, they are retaining the free allocation programme to subsidise our largest polluters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAs was also stated by the Hon Dr Megan Woods, we have here, contained within the Supplementary Estimates bill, the work to stop on Lake Onslow. We also have work stopping on Resource Management Act (RMA) reforms. However, funnily enough, they\u2019ve also started their own work programme on RMA reforms. Riddle me that. We also have the deeply unpopular policy decision from the Government to repeal Community Connect, otherwise known as half-price public transport for young people, and we also have, contained within this bill, the decision to make changes to the indexation of benefits from Consumers Price Index inflation to wage inflation, which is the decision that the Government did not make in a vacuum but with a regulatory impact statement and advice from their own officials that these changes to benefit indexation will push up to 13,000 more New Zealand children into poverty. That\u2019s the legacy that this Government gets to be proud of. That\u2019s the legacy\u2014that is what is contained within this law that they will push through under urgency tonight and tomorrow morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut, if I can just hazard a warning to the Government members, we will not take this lying down. What you have from members of the Opposition is a commitment to fight them just as hard tonight, through the morning, and till midnight tomorrow night as we did on Budget urgency where we successfully prevented them from passing three of their seven pieces of Budget night urgency legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI spoke to a few different people around these parts in Parliament who have been around for a lot longer than I have, and they said that they have never seen something like that happen before, where a Government has been stymied from passing its Budget night urgency legislation. And I think that that goes to show that we on the Opposition side are more than willing to put absolutely everything that we have got to making it abundantly clear to New Zealanders who are out there in the real world about the impact of the legislation that they are passing through, because the evidence tells them that it\u2019s going to push more kids into poverty, that it is going to increase our carbon emissions, and that, ultimately, the bloody-minded focus on tax cuts at all costs comes at the expense of the public infrastructure and the social contract that New Zealanders rely on\u2014that all of us rely on\u2014for the sake of our wellbeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo, ultimately, as was well canvassed per all of those different iterations of all of the projects that were cancelled under that mini-Budget and with the Government attempting to write themselves a cheque for this imprest supply bill, the Greens will be opposing this, and we will be doing absolutely everything that we can to make it clear to the New Zealand public how these decisions made by this Government\u2014and what the evidence base shows\u2014will make this country a worse and harsher and harder place to live in, because people already know and feel that in their day to day. But we will be making it clear, as we go line by line through this to oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s not really much else to say except to look forward to all of the Opposition members running down the clock with every single inch that they\u2019ve got. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002287de9168634f4af9a2ab05b5b83d35e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287de9168634f4af9a2ab05b5b83d35e5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019ve heard so many wonderful and powerful, thoughtful speeches in this House; I\u2019m sad to say the last two haven\u2019t been either of them. In fact, I listened to Megan Woods talk, and it was actually the marshalling of the thundering clich\u00E9 again and again\u2014no phrase was used until it had been\u00A0so thoroughly road-tested that it had lost all traction. Then we heard from Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, who says, \u201CIf I just talk about enough detail, people will decide that I\u00A0must be\u00A0really smart.\u201D This is the person who uses modern technology to campaign against mining and talks about this Government having contradictions. She said that we shouldn\u2019t be giving money to people to pay for their early childhood education, we shouldn\u2019t have a $75 tax credit, because maybe some of that money will be absorbed by the early childhood centres providing the service. Well, if that was the argument, then we should never put money into social services, because the money might be absorbed by the people that provide the social service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EActually, there\u2019s some truth in this\u2014there\u2019s some truth in this. It was shown by the previous Government. The previous Government was able to show that if you increase spending by 80 percent in six years, if you increase the amount of money spent per person by 30 percent ahead of inflation\u2014so 80 percent in general, but 30 percent ahead of inflation per person; you know, it\u2019s the real figures\u2014they can actually make social outcomes worse.\u00A0That is the context that you cannot forget when you talk about this Government\u2019s Budget. Six years of spending more and more every year, racking up $100\u00A0billion of debt on top of an ever-growing tax bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022322015e4d5b249238523adca27f638e2\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Aren\u2019t you spending more in your Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022247142ca057c45e88eb812407123f871\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and, actually, the social indicators got worse. Camilla Belich is over there, and she\u2019s trying to dispute this. I wonder which statistics she\u2019d like to dispute. Would she like to dispute the victimisation of New Zealanders by violent crime, because according to the Ministry of Justice, after six years of Labour trying this enormous ideological experiment\u2014\u201CIf only we try being kinder to criminals, maybe one day they\u2019ll be kind back.\u201D And what happened? Well, according to the Ministry of Justice\u2019s victimisation survey, violent crime towards New Zealanders went up 30 percent in six years. That was the result of a Labour Government that spent so much money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis is the Labour Party\u2014this is the party of Peter Fraser and Clarence Beeby\u2014the\u00A0party that believes every single New Zealander should have the opportunity to be extended to the full range of their powers. Whether they\u2019re boy or girl, from town or country, rich or poor, they should all get an education so that they can access the world. That\u2019s what the Labour Party used to stand for. They pumped the cash into the Ministry of Education, they went from 2,600 public servants in the ministry to 4,600 public servants\u20142,000 extra bureaucrats, and you know what happened? New Zealand students did worse. Worse in attendance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a827226d0281462e983f7ab84a3abdf7\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Talk about COVID.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fdad961aa524f25bd0523dceb8a625a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u201473 percent attendance\u2014oh, I heard Peeni Henare saying, \u201CTalk about COVID.\u201D Sir, you are coming up. Let me just finish talking about education. They put so much more money into education, and yet fewer students attended and fewer students passed, and New Zealand students in the international league tables\u2014in the Programme for International Student Assessment, in the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, and in the Progress in International Reading Literacy Study, the results got worse. So, if Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick believes that spending more money is the answer to everything, then why didn\u2019t it work when they increased expenditure from $86 billion to $140 billion in just six short years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd then Peeni Henare, my old mate from Ng\u0101puhi up north, he said, \u201CTalk about COVID.\u201D Well, let\u2019s talk about COVID\u2014let\u2019s talk about COVID. COVID-19 was a real catastrophe, but it was nothing like the catastrophe that the previous Government visited on New Zealanders through its overreaction. You know, I remember when Donald Trump was elected and Jacinda Ardern said, \u201CNo one marched when I was elected.\u201D Jacinda Ardern claims that she didn\u2019t create any social unrest. Who would have thought that Jacinda Ardern could divide a society so badly that we had fires on the front lawn of our Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229233e2befe7a4e7e9f3fcdf0f36c7c95\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And can we go back to the appropriation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b30cc5b5de14f5892e2ff7836d18632\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: We are talking about the appropriation, Madam Speaker. We\u2019re talking specifically about the fact that this is a fiscal clean-up job for enormous amounts of expenditure which has not delivered results. It delivered social division; it delivered half a billion dollars\u2019 worth of rapid antigen tests being stored in a warehouse at enormous expense after they expired and were unable to be used. So if the member wants to talk about COVID\u2014wasted money, social division, $100 billion of debt; nothing to show for it\u2014I\u2019m happy to talk about COVID.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EDoes anyone on the Labour benches have any area where they think their Government succeeded that they would still like to talk about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c1a621194924e9898c0745d6bbf074c\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: M\u0101ori housing, champ.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221190d0c94d404cf6ad3f77376314bdd0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: So\u2014oh, oh, Peeni Henare wants to talk about M\u0101ori housing. Well, first of all, what on earth is a M\u0101ori house? You know what? I think that New Zealanders\u2014human beings\u2014actually living in a house\u2014it doesn\u2019t make a huge difference what race the house is. I find that houses are just houses. You know, we actually believe that a house is just a house. But let\u2019s talk a little bit about houses for M\u0101ori and for P\u0101keh\u0101\u2014actually, for New Zealanders of all creeds and races, from all corners of the earth that make their home in this beautiful land. You see, the problem is if they want to talk about housing. Well, I\u2019m sorry, but I\u2019m going to go there. I\u2019m going to talk about KiwiBuild. You see, the reason that we\u2019ve got to cancel so much stupid spending is that the Labour Party brought in so much stupid spending, and somehow they managed to have rents\u2014rents went up $200 in just three years after they started poking around with the taxes on rental housing. KiwiBuild became a byword for failure, and K\u0101inga Ora took over $2\u00A0billion of money, borrowed on the taxpayers\u2019 credit, and started actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae333aba1814443a58e952bdd3fee9e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Built some houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a645cb480a444db25887768e82734b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Megan Woods said, \u201CTo build houses.\u201D You know what they did? They went out into the housing market, and they bid above the odds to buy land. They bid above the odds for materials and builders and project managers. They actually managed to raise the price of housing even as they tried to build affordable housing. So, Peeni Henare, you want to talk about M\u0101ori housing? You want to talk about black, white, Cuban, or Asian housing? We\u2019re very happy to talk about housing, but I don\u2019t think the Labour Party should want to talk about their performance in the housing market\u2014the massive inflation, the massive rent increases, and the massive failures in Government expenditure for people of all backgrounds. Is there anything else the Labour Party candidates would like to talk about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a584a6ca76ec4ce588a90303f27b16f3\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Why don\u2019t you talk about your own Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce7df1882cc4707ace0164f1c755c92\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go. Why don\u2019t we talk about our own Budget? Well, our Budget is busy cutting back the waste. This is the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, and as has been pointed out, it is largely about the changes we made when we came into power to reduce wasteful expenditure right across the board. But thank you very much, Camilla Belich, for telling us that nobody in Labour wants to talk about their performance anymore. They\u2019d rather we switch to talking about this Government, and, actually, more and more New Zealanders feel exactly that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo what is this Government doing? Well, this Government is reducing expenditure each and every year. And why are we doing that? Because people out there are feeling it tough. You know, I heard one of the people in the Opposition say that this Government\u2019s making bad choices with its Budget. Well, I disagree with that, but even if it was true, it would be better than the previous Government, who made no choices\u2014no choices at all. They just thought, \u201CNever mind, we can borrow a few billion more.\u201D That\u2019s how we got $100 billion into debt. What this Government is doing is tightening its belt, just the way that people up and down this country, around the kitchen table, people in firms and farms and families, have had to actually save money so that they can get through the fortnight to the next payday, surrounded by rising prices caused by the reckless fiscal irresponsibility of the previous Government and the inflation that it caused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe are now managing our books to take pressure off inflation so that people can breathe again at the end of the financial week, and we\u2019re doing that by cutting wasteful expenditure by around $13 billion, by around\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b179bd6b486456eae54b631bb177b01\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s not working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f23b388ef15e4addb939665ab14ee3a1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, and Peeni Henare says it\u2019s not working. Well, in fairness, it took them six years of fiscal irresponsibility to get us here; we\u2019ve had six months of fiscal responsibility, and, actually, inflation is coming down. People can see it being back in the target band. People can see those interest rates finally dropping, because we\u2019ve got a Government that\u2019s being responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s what else we\u2019re doing: we\u2019re using some of the savings to let people keep more of their own money with lower taxes so they can keep more of their own hard-earned money to get to the end of that fortnight, to get to the next payday without slipping further and further into overdraft. That\u2019s the kind of responsibility that this Government is bringing to financial management. Thank you, Labour, for playing, but by the end of it, you didn\u2019t want to talk about any of your policies, and if I was you, neither would I.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002237aa6903c77347b9abe287246890c9eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237aa6903c77347b9abe287246890c9eb\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t want to talk about the last regime. I don\u2019t want to commit cruelty to species that are on the verge of extinction! I want to talk about elements inside this particular bill, the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, and I want to start with energy. As was pointed out to me during the select committee process, the scrutiny process, a word and an experience that I wasn\u2019t quite familiar with, certain things happened during the unwanted sabbatical. However, coming back to the topic, I want to talk about the mortal threat that we face in terms of having a robust, adequate source of energy, and the fact that our energy resilience is threatened by a host of wild, untested, expansionary falsehoods, in terms of what was served up about how New Zealand should respond to climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe cannot respond to climate change, in an energy context\u2014whether it\u2019s more sun, more wind, other interventions\u2014unless investors, unless firms, unless farmers, unless manufacturers have the confidence that the lights will stay on and we\u2019ll have enough fuel in the country to continue to grow the economy. I am funding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b397b3be95d0428fa9d5a11372e88603\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: They know that you\u2019re a one-term Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022282c2af02d5142a995ac4fda144deae5\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve heard enough from \u201CYabba Dabba Doo\u201D over there. This is serious economics. We are talking about the threat to the resilience of our nation in respect of fuel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EEver since that crazy, dangerous decision was made to imperil the robustness of our military, worsen the resilience of our firms through the closure of the only refinery that we had in New Zealand, it falls to us now to tidy it up\u2014an investment to ensure that our fuel supplies continue to remain at a level where business has confidence in our direction. If we do not have an energy system that can guarantee to keep the lights on, we will not attract new investment, and this notion that somehow just wind, just solar is going to keep the economy turning over\u2014riddle me this: why is it that the 1,500\u2011megawatt investments that are either going through the system or have already been allocated are not already up and running?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe last regime did nothing to improve the competitiveness of the energy sector, which is why, in the coalition agreement, now funded as a consequence of this Budget, we\u2019re going to drive better competitiveness. Not only are we going to drive better compliance\u2014and I don\u2019t\u00A0want to talk about the 100,000 New Zealanders whose lives have been blighted by the falling over of one single pylon. Let me come back. There is a clear message in this particular Budget: either we\u2019re going to use our own indigenous resources or we\u2019re going to worsen our\u00A0vulnerability and throw ourselves at the feet of geopolitical instability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere is a very bleak story to be told. Whilst previously no one wanted to openly admit that we should use our own gas resources, this politician, this side of the House, is clearly going to trumpet: if you want to invest in gas and in oil in New Zealand, the door is open.\u00A0The opportunities are here. We are not going to quietly watch the mountains of Indonesian coal grow whilst the only response we hear is \u201CMore wind, more solar.\u201D We need hard-headed responses, and as a part of my delivery, we\u2019re going to do that in the context of energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELet me talk a wee bit about fisheries, an area that has been continually demonised, continually delegitimised. The industry has now, in our side of the House, not only advocacy but a politician who is not going to acquiesce with the ongoing trivialisation of this important industry and this notion that suddenly we\u2019re going to outlaw bottom trawling\u2014suddenly we\u2019re going to outlaw the majority of the techniques used by our current fishing industry\u2014to suit a tiny minority of activists. It\u2019s not happening. We need to boost the income, boost the revenue from expanding our capacity, derive more livelihood income, more export income from that industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, let me go on to what was meant to be the key institution to moderate and incentivise changes to behaviour in climate change: the emissions trading scheme (ETS). What happened under the last regime? Well, hopefully, we\u2019ll see the back end of the soon to be retiring chairman of the Climate Change Commission. I can\u2019t comment on the CEO of that organisation, but I go down on bended knee and pray that the next chair deals to that particular person\u2019s inability to deliver what society needs. But what was the inheritance that we ended up with? Gross uncertainty, continual attacks on forestry, and an inordinately negative view as to what role sequestration, what role abatements, what role offsetting should play\u2014to the point that the last regime thought the best way to deal with this was to hand out massive corporate subsidies to recipients in the industrial world. And those who received it\u2014good on you. You played by the rules; you received the p\u016Btea. My message to you: abide by the key performance indicators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut we\u2019re not going to address the challenges of climate change unless we bring certainty and stability, and a lot of the work that was under way under the last Budget has gone by the way, and there\u2019s a narrow focus this time to enhance certainty and boost stability in terms of the ETS. And this notion that some would have you believe\u2014that we\u2019re going to go away and spend billions of dollars in 2030; that\u2019s what we hear from the \u201CYabba Dabba Doo Party\u201D over there: that New Zealanders are going to endorse us sending billions of dollars to the Congo\u2014is never going to happen. New Zealanders expect us to invest so that society, so that the community, can adapt to the challenges of changing weather and changing community challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, let me finish just on building and housing. K\u0101inga Ora\u2014and I\u2019m not too fussed by the name. \u201CK\u0101inga\u201D, from the word \u201Ck\u0101\u201D: to light a fire where you built your home; \u201Cora\u201D\u2014sadly, for that lovely M\u0101ori word meaning \u201Cwellbeing\u201D, most of the experience for organisations with that name in their moniker has been an inverse-related outcome. K\u0101inga Ora ended up, under the last regime, delivering houses at $6,500 per square metre. No wonder their finances are in a terrible state. In New Zealand, we should be delivering bulk\u00A0standard houses for at least $2,400 per square metre. And why do I say that? There is\u00A0no point building the Taj Mahal when what society really requires is to stop spending the\u00A0$1\u00A0million per day in motels and move those people into bulk standard, ordinary whare, not overcompensated and overcapitalised, like many of us grew up with in New Zealand\u2014an ordinary Keith Hay house\u2014or, in the case of the people who grew up in the 1960s, where you could get the same dwelling if you lived in Kait\u0101ia down to Invercargill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EK\u0101inga Ora, sadly, with a board that lost its way, probably dominated by a very, very overreaching Minister of the time, has worsened housing statistics in New Zealand. The costs blew out to the point that, yes, there is at the moment a pause because we\u2019ve got to get our hands around the throat of how much money we are continually throwing after bad outcomes. And the worst\u2014the worst legacy\u2014is to look at the trajectory of inflated costs associated with delivering housing for the most needy, which is why our modest contribution of the granny flat is already inordinately popular around New Zealand\u2014not only as a response, because it eclipses the Building Act, much of which is unnecessary bureaucracy; it will also have a pathway through the Resource Management Act. It\u2019s common-sense, robust gestures of that nature which will deliver to garden-variety Kiwis\u00A0a\u00A0housing solution that is not overcapitalised and does not have the cost structure of the Taj Mahal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4c3a5fc0bba4196a0e12fa4635a288d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4c3a5fc0bba4196a0e12fa4635a288d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Celia Wade-Brown; this is a split call\u2014five minutes. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u00220c5593df1f5d4854b1c25683763606b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c5593df1f5d4854b1c25683763606b0\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s my pleasure to\u00A0take a call in this debate on the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill. What this bill does is look at the wash-up that needs to be done. The Supplementary Estimates reflect the activities of the Government through the period of the year that maybe weren\u2019t foreseen, weren\u2019t part of the original Budget, or, in this case, were the brutal changes caused by a change in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThe change in Government treats the majority for the coalition of three rather distinct partners as a total mandate for some of the policies pushed by one or two minor parties\u2014parties of the three-headed taniwha.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293d3731d06644f6b9de2fae8cdb30605\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Minor\u2014minor? All-powerful\u2014all-powerful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221fb14b653f548d58fe12d01a6c4443c\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Power and size are not always related. This is legislation that should be a usual and normal part of our parliamentary process, but this set of figures is quite challenging as a change of Government has stopped some very good processes in their tracks\u2014sometimes before their worth has been fully proven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003ENow, the Greens supported the 2023-24 Budget. That doesn\u2019t mean we supported every line. We certainly don\u2019t support many of the changes brought in since November. I\u2019d like to draw attention to a few of the specific changes to appropriations listed in Schedule 1 that deserve a bit more of a detailed investigation. Why was $1.5 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d6bb70569ea44798f618dbb513a7d5a\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Investigation? Where\u2019s Darleen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f059846ffd9405294e87b3c28303cd7\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014less spent on apprentice training, when every party here apparently supports\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf32818d65824a5ea66e8736576fd7fa\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Set Darleen free!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7315151202a4187ad037b04ff6217f1\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, not a good idea, on the right side of the House. We\u2019ll stick to the debate, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b736672907c4a2bbc9a5954c3f11a5a\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014training and retraining in positive trades. What a tragedy that the Community Connect programme is $30 million underspent, when those half-price fares were helping people choose public transport. Now, that\u2019s an effective way to support low-income families and reduce congestion far more cheaply than tolled four-lane highways and tunnels ever can. Dropping Community Connect was a deliberate move by the new Government against public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003ESimilarly, planning infrastructure and activities for mode shift, which encourages those who can change\u2014it\u2019s not compulsory. There are certain members of the Opposition and the Government that I cannot imagine ever on a bicycle, but they\u2019re not listening, so it doesn\u2019t matter. That was underspent by $200 million, and I\u2019d like to have addressed at some point: if the spend on national pharmaceuticals was almost $500 million overspent in this Budget already, is this coming year\u2019s Budget actually going to deliver the promised medicines? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003ETransport congestion, road pavement conditions, health, crime\u2014they\u2019re all susceptible to having\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f60b54aa0cdb49bf82c5f9ede97bcdff\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about potholes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220254534de89c48658f89bb70fd63aa5a\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yeah\u2014the symptoms addressed. Potholes are a symptom of a bad transport system. The Greens want to address the causes, not the symptoms, and we want to reduce future health costs. Warm, dry, secure housing would solve truancy a lot faster than fining parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c75114f946f4b7291d84c76a564ce5c\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: No, send them to military camp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c04a2fbd35d481e9df7cec5d4308a45\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: All 10 of them. These questions, and the Budget as a whole, remind us that poverty, tax cuts for landlords, mitigation of climate change, adaptation to\u00A0climate change that\u2019s already happening, and protection of our taonga species are political choices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, with the damaging effects of inequality now starkly clear on the health, economy, and environment, I\u2019d like to quote Kate Raworth: \u201CDon\u2019t wait for economic growth to reduce inequality\u201D. Let\u2019s address the causes of inequality, the causes of ill health, and the causes of environmental degradation. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022568fcbbe8831423fb89eabee6448628d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022568fcbbe8831423fb89eabee6448628d\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, because this Budget is about getting New Zealand ahead, moving us forward out of the dark daily struggle to a brighter future, enabling hard-working New Zealanders to keep more of what they earn, strengthening our economy once again, and delivering that tax relief that people have not seen in New Zealand for 14 years. It\u2019s a fiscally responsible Budget and delivers on our commitments to put more funding into our front-line health services, education, and police. That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224bb675f4ffb46c0aa88503d6e161a5f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: What about the Supplementary Estimates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280dc33c3ae8d46d79ab119f1cdb0d93b\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD\u003C/span\u003E: On this side of the House, we\u2019re reducing the ballooning bureaucracy\u2014I am getting to the actual Votes in Estimates\u2014because we are taking money out of the back office and we are moving it to the front line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EI\u2019m an electorate MP standing up every day for the people of Hawke\u2019s Bay, and this Budget respects those hard-working people in provincial New Zealand. Regional New Zealand has been neglected for the past six years, as the previous Government treated provincial New Zealand like a bottomless tax ATM machine, spending the money in Wellington on consultants and ballooning bureaucracy, taxing hard-working people in businesses, and strangling our productive sectors with regulation. Budget 2024 respects provincial New Zealand, because we are aspirational and we reward success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EOur tax-relief package in the Budget will increase the take-home income of 83 percent of New Zealanders\u201483 percent of New Zealanders. It is in here\u2014this is what the New Zealand public voted for, and this is what this bill will be delivering on 31 July. It\u2019s time that hard-working New Zealanders can keep more of what they earn. Our tax package gives the average-income households up to $102 a fortnight, plus the FamilyBoost childcare of $150 a fortnight. This is significant to many low and middle income - earning families who are really struggling at the moment after years and years of neglect. Our Government is finally taking action to bring down inflation, bring down those interest rates, and strengthen our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EBudget 2024 also puts a heavy focus on health. We\u2019re investing in and increasing front-line services such as emergency departments, primary care, medicines, and public health so New Zealanders can have the healthcare they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we\u2019re laser-focused on education. You will see in those Estimates and in our 2024 Budget a heavy focus on education because education creates equality, and we are investing in our children and in the future of New Zealand, looking forwards, not backwards, like the member said earlier. It\u2019s not about lowering the bar; it\u2019s about getting more of our kids above the bar and on a positive pathway to a job and a better future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EThis Budget commits\u2014yes, this Budget and the Estimates commit\u2014$1.5 billion for school property building and maintaining classrooms, getting more value out of the money we spend and a real focus on our front-line classrooms, ensuring money is going into our teachers and children, not wasted on the bureaucracy in Wellington. We have committed $67 million to roll out structured literacy across our schools. I have 61 schools in the Tukituki electorate, and I have been out and about visiting these schools, meeting the amazing teachers, seeing how they\u2019ve been rolling out structured literacy, hearing about the huge difference that it is making for our children, seeing them sounding the words, and seeing their faces light up as they can suddenly read. We need to lift performance across education, and this starts by getting our kids back to basics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EOur Government is also committed to cracking down on crime and keeping our communities safe. In this Budget, we are investing $2.9 billion to restoring law and order\u2014more front-line police officers, more support for our police on the beat, $1.9\u00A0billion to front-line corrections officers, more prison capacity, and more rehabilitation for offenders and support for the victims of crime. We are focusing on youth offending, including a military-style academy pilot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EInfrastructure is another big area in Budget 2024, because there has been an absolute deficit in our infrastructure, and we\u2019re going to be investing $68 billion in infrastructure over the next five years. This is a record investment in infrastructure, and when we talk about infrastructure, we aren\u2019t visualising and dreaming and thinking ideology of light-rail projects that haven\u2019t seen a metre of track built or of cycleways across the Auckland Harbour Bridge, which, again, is absolute ideology. We are not a Government that talks about it; we are a Government of action and delivery on this side of the House, getting stuff built, fast-tracking consenting, and getting on with the job to tackle the infrastructure deficit in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EThis is significant for Hawke\u2019s Bay, which is a huge export region and will play a big part in helping us double the value of exports in this country over the next 10 years. This Government\u2019s plans for infrastructure will be life changing for people across our region. Four-laning the Hawke\u2019s Bay expressway is a top priority and is a road of national significance. The Hawke\u2019s Bay expressway is crucial to driving more productivity in our region, getting our apples, wine, meat, and produce to the port more efficiently and off to markets around the world a lot faster. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EWe are also delivering on our commitment to boost funding for pothole prevention, as the member over here alluded to. During the campaign, people would complain to me all the time about the hundreds and hundreds of potholes across our State highways and our rural roads, because, on that side of the House, they failed to invest in infrastructure. In fact, we\u2019re seeing over $82 million going into Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2019s potholes. So maintaining our roads is a top priority. Actually, that\u2019s an increase of 51 percent, and it\u2019s this type of investment that is going to make a huge difference, a focus on provincial New Zealand, stopping the centralisation in the bureaucracy and focusing on our regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003ESpeaking of our regions, I\u2019m going to make a reference to the cyclone rebuild and recovery funding that we have seen in these Estimates, because Hawke\u2019s Bay is also getting an extra funding boost for cyclone recovery to ensure we can rebuild quickly and efficiently. Already, our Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown, has been to the region, and he\u2019s been speaking with our regional leaders just to see how we can rebuild more efficiently and faster and make sure that we are investing in that crucial infrastructure. That includes the State highway network, including State Highway 2 and State Highway 5, and there will be an investment of $609.3 million over three years to complete the State highway recovery works in the areas that have been affected by the North Island weather events. This is significant for my region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EAlso, there will be an investment of $330 million over two years to continue the response and recovery work on local roads, and it\u2019s this funding that will ensure the vital transport links are repaired so people and freight can get to where they need to go quickly and safely. Our Government is absolutely committed to cyclone rebuild in the Hawke\u2019s Bay region and ensuring that our region gets back on its feet, and it was absolutely heartening to see such a significant investment in Budget 2024, which is going to make a huge difference for the people of Hawke\u2019s Bay and a lot of those people who were devastated in Cyclone Gabrielle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EThis Budget is focused on getting more value out of the money we spend, returning to surplus, stopping the ballooning public debt that we\u2019ve seen in the past six years, and restoring discipline to public spending. We\u2019re putting money back into the front line and giving hard-working New Zealanders tax relief, and that\u2019s getting New Zealand back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022491c3ecd86bb41ada1721330db7d36c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022491c3ecd86bb41ada1721330db7d36c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E So many clich\u00E9s in so little time\u2014so little time\u2014that the member didn\u2019t even manage to address the bill that is under discussion. Now, the member is a new member, so I suppose it\u2019s reasonable that she could be mistaken about the subject matter of this debate. But the subject matter of this debate is not\u2014is not\u2014the 2024 Budget; in fact, the subject matter of this debate is the imprest supply bill and this bill, the Supplementary Estimates, which are the Supplementary Estimates which amend the 2023 Budget\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7106a59f1e64756b86b1fd2e010d47f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The previous member did refer to the Estimates a number of times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cea34336142d4f7d8b0cf05996616288\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, she did, but she talked repeatedly about the Budget. However, if the member wants to open up the debate like that, well, I suppose we are going to welcome the opportunity to talk more about the Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut I just want to retreat right back to this bill and some of the reasons behind it. First of all, any member who\u2019s actually attended the Finance and Expenditure Committee meetings and read the report would know that the discussion there was very much on the extra money that has been appropriated, or not, in this bill, and there is a very dull, pro forma report that comes out. But the Minister of Finance\u2014and the member would do well to listen to her Minister of Finance\u2014said something very interesting in her speech. She said one of the reasons for this annual Supplementary Estimates bill is that \u201Cfiscal risks materialise\u201D. Stuff happens\u2014stuff happens between one Budget and the next. Stuff happens, which means that the Budget needs to be amended or changed. Sometimes it\u2019s low-level stuff that just happens at the level of the department or a ministry. At other times, it is major and significant things that happen which then necessitate a change to the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIn fact, the member, in amidst her speaking repeatedly about the Budget rather than the Supplementary Estimates, did spend quite a bit of time talking about the impact of Cyclone Gabrielle. I noticed she didn\u2019t manage to talk about the Auckland Anniversary Weekend floods, which were just as important, but talked about the impact of Cyclone Gabrielle. Of course, that is one of those things that happens and that a Government simply must deal with. It simply must start spending the money and making the choices, because a disaster has happened or because something completely unexpected has happened, and, in these Supplementary Estimates, we see some of that going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo, to help the member out, I will direct her to page 28 of this bill, which is the one we\u2019re debating, and it talks about some of the extra money that is allocated there. It\u2019s a decrease of $257,000, actually, for Cyclone Gabrielle, for the National Land Transport Fund operating cost pressure funding\u2014it\u2019s on page 28. Now, that\u2019s because when Cyclone Gabrielle swept through, a huge adjustment had to be made to the 2023 Budget. It was done as best we could, and so, subsequently, the money got changed around because later understandings developed. Why? Because, as the Minister of Finance said, fiscal risks materialise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat this bill, the one that we should have been debating, is doing is talking about the changes that have been made between Budgets, and it does. This bill does contain, as my colleague Megan Woods said, some signals\u2014some stuff that we know about that was changed because of the choices that this incoming Government has made\u2014and these choices are quite instructive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to direct the member\u2019s attention to page 20 of this particular Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill, and sitting in there is a return of money to central government of $122 million\u2014it\u2019s a lot of money\u2014for the establishment of water services entities. So the incoming Government has made a choice about how it is going to deal with the serious issues around water supply in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting, sitting in the Finance and Expenditure Committee in the last few days. In the public hearings\u2014the stuff that\u2019s already public\u2014council after council after council has come to that committee and said, \u201CHow are we going to pay? How is our rating base going to manage?\u201D Councils\u2014like Rangitikei Council; councils, like Clutha Council\u2014have come and said, \u201CWe just don\u2019t have the money or the rating base to manage this.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287cd39a7fafb47f7acd0e2d9f4886db8\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Far North.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce0e4fdd8e54c2a886dad71c1a65715\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Now, the previous Government had come up with a solution to enable those councils to manage the real needs around water supply. Actually, my colleague Mr Henare has just mentioned the Far North District Council. They absolutely need assistance in order to get their water supplies up to standard, but off a low ratings base, they simply cannot pay for it. That Government over there, and it\u2019s seen in this Supplementary Estimates bill, has told councils to go at it on their own\u2014just go at it on their own\u2014and some of the least wealthy areas of the country and some of the areas where there is no capacity to get further money out of the rating base have told the councils that they are on their own. That decision is recorded in this bill. It\u2019s a shameful decision, and it\u2019s one that council after council has rejected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to direct the member\u2019s attention now\u2014because she needs to understand where this comes from\u2014to page 52 of this bill. What it has in there is a return of $220 million to the centre, because there was going to be a Crown loan to support the transformation of Te P\u016Bkenga and of our whole vocational education system in there, but that money is coming back. And it\u2019s quite interesting because, even though that money has come back into the centre, sitting in the Budget this year, where, seeing as the Government has abandoned one plan, we might expect to see some plan in this year\u2019s Budget\u2014but sitting on page 90 of a summary of initiatives, where we\u2019re looking at Te P\u016Bkenga disestablishment and transition\u2014a tad \u201Ccontingency\u201D\u2014there\u2019s not a single number in there. Not a single number there. What does this point to, between the Supplementary Estimates where the money is taken out because they\u2019re not going to do that anymore, but no money is being provided for it in this document? There is no plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat Government does not have a plan. It does not have a plan for water services, other than charging the money back to councils. It does not have a plan for Te P\u016Bkenga. It charged in to change things around because of its own ideological preferences and then couldn\u2019t be bothered to allocate the money. It does not have a plan and does not have a sense of where it\u2019s going. That is what this Supplementary Estimates bill records for us. That\u2019s what we see coming through from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI also then want to turn to, again, another really interesting item sitting in this Supplementary Estimates bill, and I\u2019m going to point the member to page 40 of this Supplementary Estimates bill. It\u2019s some extra money that the Government has had to allocate to KiwiRail for the Project iReX wind-down costs\u2014another area where the Government simply doesn\u2019t have a plan. It has rejected the entirely sensible plan of the previous Government. The plan of the previous Government would have seen a secure freight connection between the North and South Islands that would have seen excellent ferry transport that would have promoted the use of rail to get our freight up and down the country, taking that pressure off our roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut that Government decided to just bin the contract. They decided they just didn\u2019t want to do it. I don\u2019t know why they just decided not to\u2014and it\u2019s going to cost us $300\u00A0million. That\u2019s the money that\u2019s been set aside in these Supplementary Estimates in order to cover off that Government\u2019s ideological decision making where they\u2019ve raced into decisions as a knee-jerk reaction and said they\u2019re just not going to do anything that the former Government had done. So that is what is recorded in these Supplementary Estimates, and they are a shameful record for that Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ELooking forward to next year, we can expect to see one more decision in some Supplementary Estimates. They ignored a promise they\u2019d made on the campaign trail. They refused to fund the cancer drugs they\u2019d promised to fund. They didn\u2019t put it in the Budget, and so then, by the concerted action up and down the country, they were finally shamed into doing the thing they had promised to do all along. But they have not recorded it in their Budget\u2014they have not recorded it in this Budget. They\u2019ve written a cheque on the future, and I expect to see it in next year\u2019s Budget, and right then we can think some more about their lack of planning, their lack of foresight, and their inability to follow through on their promises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that does not have a plan. It just races from one decision to another, and the record of that is right here. We will be voting against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00225aa1b4641f494acba10e9ced668dc446\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225aa1b4641f494acba10e9ced668dc446\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand before you to support the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and Imprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill, a critical component of our Government\u2019s financial framework. This bill is essential for ensuring the smooth operation of our nation\u2019s finances as we transition from one fiscal year to the\u00A0next. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EA quick fact for those who have tuned in to us on TV and who are listening to us: the financial year for New Zealanders runs from 1 July to the following 30 June. During this period, the Government requires appropriations or authorisations from Parliament to carry out its functions effectively. I believe it is very important for the New Zealand public to understand how the Budget is set, especially before, during, and lapsing over the financial period, and, more importantly, what actually goes into this year\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ENow, the supply process, which is what this bill is part of, involves the appropriation of funds\u2014the taxpayer\u2019s hard-earned money\u2014that are necessary for the Government to continue its operation in delivering for all New Zealanders. While some of the supply is established on a permanent, regular basis under permanent legislative authority, the majority needs to be authorised annually through the House supply procedures in any given financial year. So here we are. This is why we are here tonight debating in the House to deal with the residual supplies from the previous year, current supply issues, and preparatory supply issues for the forthcoming year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ESince the Budget was announced on 30 May, released on Budget day by the Minister of Finance, the Hon Nicola Willis, everyone up and down the country is looking at what our National-led coalition Government can deliver for all New Zealanders. The Budget statement, delivered by the Minister of Finance, outlined the principal components of our Budget. This year\u2019s Budget is particularly noteworthy for several reasons. For the first time in 14 years, hard-working New Zealanders will get to keep more of their hard-earned money through the Government\u2019s tax relief measures. This Budget is shifting resources from the back office of the Government into the front line, investing in healthcare, in schools, and in police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EWhy is the Budget so strongly focused on shifting resources from our back office, from the bureaucracies, into front line, and why are we investing in law and order? Why are we investing in improving public services, particularly in education and healthcare? Well, let me remind every member in this House, and also to those who have tuned in, watching and listening to this debate of one very important date, 14 October 2023, the New Zealand general election. That was the date where more than half of New Zealanders voted for change and voted for this National-led coalition Government. It was the turnaround date for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EMembers on this side of the House campaigned on turning the ship around for New Zealand. We campaigned on bringing down the cost of living. We campaigned on restoring law and order, and we campaigned on improving public services. We campaigned to improve our education and to stop failing our children. We campaigned on improving our healthcare so Kiwis can access world-class healthcare and the medical care that we all deserve. But, just in case, if the members opposite had forgotten that night, it was painful, I know. It was 14 October when half of New Zealand voted them out and voted us in to clean up after their mess, to rescue the country from many fiscal cliffs, to put a handbrake on wasteful Government spending, and to finally bring some good sense and good decisions with taxpayers\u2019 hard-earned money and actually get our country back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ESo here we are: this Government\u2019s first Budget announced on 30 May 2024. I take this opportunity to thank all the Ministers and Government officials involved, going line by line cutting down wasteful Government spending to find recurring savings and to reprioritise taxpayers\u2019 hard-earned income to tax relief and to bring relief on cost of living pressures, to restore law and order, and to improve public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ENow, the 2024 Budget aims to put New Zealanders\u2019 money where it can make the biggest difference, delivering value for money while maintaining a fiscally responsible stance. If I can remind every member in this House, this Budget is the most fiscally responsible in seven years, with an operating allowance that is the lowest in real terms since the former finance Minister Steven Joyce\u2019s Budget in 2017. This Budget is designed for everyday New Zealanders, those hard-working New Zealanders who are managing and doing their very best for their families and dealing with the daily grind. It aims to provide relief for the squeezed middle of New Zealand\u2014the shift workers, the people who are working multiple jobs, people who have young children, people who are making sacrifices just to keep every day possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EThe right measure of success, in my opinion, for the Government is not how much we actually spent or how much PR we did or how many conferences we held, but actually whether we make a positive difference to New Zealanders and whether I can actually front up to my community, to my constituents, and tell them that we\u2019ve done a really good job with their money. In my opinion, a good Government is also about bringing sense back to the revenue and expenses and bringing things back into balance. This is why the National-led Government has focused so much on managing and just bringing down our spending. Now, the operating allowance, as I alluded to earlier, has been the lowest in real terms since the last seven years. It\u2019s set at $3.2 billion. Future Budgets from 2025 to 2027 will have even lower operating allowances per Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EA major component of this Budget, as I said a bit earlier, is tax relief, which is long overdue, because we haven\u2019t had a personal income tax threshold change for 14 years. This is talking about reducing the burden for the individuals and the families who are working so hard. But on top of that, we\u2019ve also updated the independent earner tax credit eligibility. We\u2019ve also increased the in-work tax credit. We\u2019ve also provided and introduced FamilyBoost. Families with young children\u2014and I am one of them, and I can say there are so many families from my constituents who have come forward to us to say that this is finally some hope coming our way, because raising children in New Zealand is challenging. Raising children in New Zealand is challenging, but with FamilyBoost we are providing help\u2014up to 25 percent of the early childhood education fees back to parents, back to caregivers, for them to decide on what they think is the best for their family, not for the Government to decide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EApart from the tax relief, this Budget also invests heavily in public services. We are investing heavily into the health service in Budget 2024. We are also investing heavily in areas of education. We are investing heavily into areas of law and order. And can I just very briefly comment and say that Budget 2024 invests $8.15 billion extra operating capital funding in health services. It is providing $1.77 billion to Pharmac to ensure New Zealanders can have access to essential medicines. The Government is also investing $2.93 billion in schools and early childhood education. The Budget is also putting in $2.9\u00A0billion to restore law and order. The Budget is for everyone in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EBut, if I can, in my last remaining 50 seconds, I wanted to make a special mention of a family in Pakuranga\u2014a family with two young children\u2014who messaged me on 30\u00A0May, Budget day, with their screenshot. They went on to the tax calculator and have said that every fortnight they will be able to get $116.50. They are getting an annual saving of $3,029. They are stoked that they are finally able to send their children back to the extracurricular classes that the parents, unfortunately, had to cancel. They\u2019re now even saying, \u201CMaybe we can afford to take our kids to the zoo once a year.\u201D So this is significant. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe6b9096c00545ada4a52332265ff3d6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call between Labour and National. I call Arena Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82a0816a4ae4114bf5a3477e3f92ed6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82a0816a4ae4114bf5a3477e3f92ed6\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Te Aka Whai Ora is gone\u2014the M\u0101ori Health Authority is gone\u2014M\u0101ori education has been slashed, and M\u0101ori housing programmes are being cut in this bill and in this Government\u2019s Budget, because this Government has delivered an austerity Budget for M\u0101ori that takes New Zealand backwards. It takes all New Zealanders backwards because of the way it impacts on some of our most vulnerable New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ETo have David Seymour come to this House today in this debate and ridicule the previous Government\u2019s record on M\u0101ori housing\u2014which stepped forward not only M\u0101ori homeownership but M\u0101ori conditions of living, of M\u0101ori in rental situations in sub-standard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227930b0d0f6c4f6ab34ee1efd235b51a\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Embarrassing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b0411d6c31d4a9a9e27b888c74fdf21\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: It is an embarrassment. It is an embarrassment when we have a Minister of the Crown coming to this House and saying, \u201CWhat\u2019s a M\u0101ori home?\u201D A M\u0101ori home means something to those wh\u0101nau who call that their k\u0101inga; for whom that is not only the centre of their family but that is their connection with their land; that is a part of their identity. And M\u0101ori have no other home. We are the indigenous people of this country, and our homeownership aspirations are being crushed by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn this Appropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill, the Government has gone out of its way to cut the increasing M\u0101ori housing supply appropriation that the last Government introduced. It didn\u2019t have to do that. It was penny-pinching\u2014penny-pinching\u2014$7 million from a fund which enabled M\u0101ori to realise some of those housing aspirations which have been held back and which the Minister David Seymour came to this House to rubbish, because he doesn\u2019t believe in M\u0101ori homeownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut Labour does, because Labour knows that, actually, the history is more peppered than that Minister understands. In the 1930s, M\u0101ori homeownership was higher than any other group in New Zealand, but over successive decades\u2014because of choices of colonial Governments and the kinds of economy that disenfranchised M\u0101ori in not only our urban centres but from their rural lands\u2014M\u0101ori homeownership declined more steeply than any other group. And now M\u0101ori homeownership is less than 30 percent. It has declined in recent years at an even steeper rate than the decade previous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also quite alarming\u2014and I think I\u2019d like to offer the Minister some education on this\u2014that 40 percent of M\u0101ori live in damp homes. That is double the number of other ethnicities reporting that they live in damp, cold homes. M\u0101ori are less likely to be able to heat their living spaces, to be able to afford to do so, and to be able to live in properly insulated properties too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo what did the Labour Government do? It introduced a number of special Budget appropriations to actually tackle that inequality head-on. Things like He K\u016Bk\u016B Ki Te K\u0101inga, which is the increasing M\u0101ori housing supply appropriation, which this Government has removed, were among four initiatives like Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua \u014Cr\u0101kei\u2019s kaum\u0101tua housing at Bastion Point. It was a small appropriation to allow that building to be completed, and they have cut that. They have taken it away from kaum\u0101tua and kuia who need that housing and who would have been able to contribute to the visions and aspirations of that iwi to return not only to their whenua and to that place in Auckland to reclaim that history but also to be around their grandchildren, their tamariki and mokopuna, who were growing up there. It is a real shame that that appropriation is something that these members are proud of cutting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt is a real shame that they are cutting things like the support for the Papakura Marae, with its housing builds that enabled not only older people to live around the marae but also people who for generations have been locked out of the housing market through transitional housing. Not only was that fund being used for proper housing to be built there, it was also wraparound support to get people into homeownership and ready for homeownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThose are initiatives that Labour is proud of. Those are initiatives which that Minister, David Seymour, has rubbished in this House, and I challenge him to tell us why he doesn\u2019t believe that M\u0101ori should own their own homes and should aspire to that, because he is part of a Government that has cut first-home buyers\u2019 grants, which will continue to lock out first-home buyers from the market. He is not only happy to lock M\u0101ori first-home buyers out of the market, he\u2019s happy to lock all first-home buyers out of the market and to advance a programme of work which incentivises large-scale investors to buy properties at the expense of those first-home buyers by reintroducing interest deductibility, which doesn\u2019t increase housing supply at all\u2014it simply encourages large investors to buy them up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a Government with its priorities all wrong, but Labour will defend M\u0101ori homeownership next time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u00225e3ca78930d5472c910ee5408a6a0591\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e3ca78930d5472c910ee5408a6a0591\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Budget 2024 is a Budget for the squeezed middle. For the first time in 14 years, hard-working Kiwis\u2014like people in Mt\u00A0Roskill\u2014will get to keep more of what they earn through our Government tax relief. From 31 July this year, an average-income household will receive tax relief of up to $102\u00A0a fortnight, and eligible families will also receive a FamilyBoost childcare tax credit of up to $150 per fortnight. This will make a real difference to hard-working Kiwis, who have endured a prolonged cost of living crisis. Most importantly, these changes will be fully paid for by offsetting saving and revenue initiatives, meaning tax relief won\u2019t require additional borrowing and won\u2019t add to inflationary pressure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003EI know my constituents are excited about the Budget and they want to know more, but today, as a member of the Health Committee, I would like to focus on how Budget 2024 is making a meaningful difference towards getting our health system back on track. Just now, we hear a lot of things from the opposite side of the House, talking about things going backward. They love to use data. Let\u2019s talk about things going backwards and targets. Let\u2019s talk about emergency department (ED) wait times. In 2017, 91 percent of the patients were being seen within six hours. What happened? Under the Labour Government, it dropped to only 76 percent. What does that mean? That means 90,000 more New Zealanders are waiting more than six hours at ED. Let\u2019s talk about immunisation rates. The immunisation rate of children aged 24 months dropped from 92.4 percent in 2017, to 82.9 percent. This is what I call going backwards. Our healthcare system is facing a major workforce shortage. This is what I call going backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003EAs a part of Budget 2024, health is getting a significant funding boost of $16.69 billion, across three Budgets, as part of our plan to invest in our front-line services\u2014such as emergency departments, primary care, medicine, and public health\u2014to ensure New Zealanders can get the healthcare that they deserve. Let\u2019s talk a little bit about health investment in Budget 2024 over the four years included. Well, listen: $3.44 billion for hospital and specialised service for Health New Zealand; $2.12 billion for primary, community, and public health through Health New Zealand; $1.77 billion for Pharmac to fix the shortfall left by the Labour Government. We will ensure that Kiwis can get access to the medicines they need. We talk about $31.2\u00A0million to extend free breast screening to an additional 60,000 women each year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003EWhat we also target is the ongoing workforce issue in our healthcare system. Budget 2024 is also investing $22 million to train 24 more doctors each year\u2014that\u2019s enabled the University of Auckland and the University of Otago to increase their combined medical school first-year intake, which will see more doctors graduating and entering the health workforce. People in Mt Roskill are also concerned about the broken mental health system.\u00A0Budget 2024 will invest $24 million in free mental health counselling services through Gumboot Friday, providing 160,000 hours of free counselling sessions for New Zealanders aged between five and 25. We are also allocating another $24.5 million for mental wellbeing support for primary and intermediate school students. This is how we target the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003EOur Government, in Budget 2024, is committed to investing in our healthcare system because we are a Government that listens to people. We work for people, and we deliver for the people, especially for the hard-working people in New Zealand, especially the hard-working residents of Mt Roskill. I support this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u00227aefe7438bd4482882c6d6b66faaabd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227aefe7438bd4482882c6d6b66faaabd0\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand to speak in strong opposition because there is nothing in this Budget for the people of Christchurch East. In fact, there\u2019s less than nothing, because this Budget actually takes things away. That\u2019s what we see in this bill and in this Budget, and I\u2019m going to give you a local example of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIf you come to Acheson Avenue in the heart of Shirley\u2014it\u2019s a beautiful street\u2014there\u2019s a set of shops that were built post-war, after the Second World War, and they were given to veterans to help them settle back into the community. They could start small independent businesses. They could build up a precinct and area for the people of Shirley to enjoy. Now, in recent years, things being what they are with moves to malls and supermarkets, those shops were mostly empty. But when Ka Ora, Ka Ako was established, this community saw an opportunity to invest. It was an opportunity to invest in their kids, and it was an opportunity to invest in themselves. I can\u2019t think of anything better to invest in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo they established Nourish \u014Craka, a small, local, social enterprise. \u201CWhat does that look like?\u201D, I hear you ask. I\u2019ll tell you it looks like. It looks like 10 jobs for locals. It looks like making 525 lunches a day for the students who go to Shirley Primary School and Te Oraka Shirley Intermediate School. It looks like after-school jobs for some of those school kids\u2014finish school, pop in, do a couple of hours of dishes, be paid properly for it, and learn some skills. It looks like no kids staying home because their family can\u2019t provide them lunch. It looks like no single-use packaging being used at all. It looks like 100 percent of the food scraps being recycled at a nearby chicken-rescue organisation. There\u2019s something else that it achieves, something that isn\u2019t a number: pride. This bill and this Budget cuts pride.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve been there on a typical day through the week, when it\u2019s busy. You walk in through the door, you have no idea what\u2019s going on inside, but it\u2019s a bustling, busy kitchen. The radio\u2019s on. Those 10 staff are making perfect lunches\u2014perfect, uniform lunches; exactly what they know the local kids want to eat. The garage door is rolled up out the back. There\u2019s a view out to the park. It makes it absolutely safe for people to spend time there. The van gets loaded up. The healthy food gets delivered for those kids to have for lunch. That\u2019s community. This Budget cuts community to its very core. So when our community heard that this National-led Government was wanting to make a choice to cut spending on Ka Ora, Ka Ako\u2014on school lunches, that was one of the places that they wanted to cut. That was one of the choices this Government was making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, cutting school lunches doesn\u2019t sound like a good way, to me, to address the cost of living, school attendance, or educational outcomes. But that is the choice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266d5080d77c443859679892efaa8ff1d\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Fiscal cliff left by Labour; we funded it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256390a76ff774aa39eae1fc703a1507f\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that this Government is making. I\u2019ll remind that member that the point of a heckle is to try and make me look silly, not them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo the community called on me to have a public meeting to hear from them about what taking this away would mean. So our education spokesperson, Jan Tinetti, came down and joined me at the MacFarlane Park Centre on Acheson Avenue, and we had a public meeting for the community of Christchurch East.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d2dcb13374f4dfe84d487c8d2d02cbe\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Well attended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022681277746b674d8eb80e8bdaa1930be2\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: It was busy. It was well attended. We had to put out extra chairs\u2014three times, we had to put out extra chairs\u2014and there was still standing room only. That front row of chairs was full of people that the members on the other side of this House should engage with more often. It was full of principals from local primary and intermediate and high schools. They told us that since they\u2019d had the healthy school lunch programme, there were no queues for the sick bay after lunch and kids now eat together. For lots of kids, this is the only meal they may have that day. We heard about the very real difference that providers like Nourish \u014Craka, who work with the local kids and who work with the community to design those menus and to provide those lunches, make. Some of them stood up and spoke to the strength of the school lunch programme and the fact that they were concerned about the Budget cutting that out of their school. They\u2019d taken a petition around their school and had every student sign it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EOne of the local schools is a school that has seen a 600 percent increase in NCEA achievement\u2014600 percent. That\u2019s been down to the work of Peggy Burrows, the principal, and the teaching staff at Haeata. Some of those students had heard that this Government wanted to cut their school lunch programme, and 68 of them wrote letters. I\u2019m going to read three of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022388c485973044817892aec5bd93ba258\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, please don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b955785591d49669dffe727f28d92fa\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: The first letter: \u201CIf you take away the school lunches, we will be hungry and won\u2019t be able to learn properly. Our school needs school lunches so we can get our energy for the rest of the day. The lunches help me to concentrate.\u201D The fact that you don\u2019t want to hear the letter is a point that I will get to, surely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe second of 68 letters: \u201CMy name is Tavita, and I go to a Haeata community campus. I\u2019m Samoan-born, and I live in New Zealand. I don\u2019t want you to remove the lunches, because parents have to pay for school clothes, power bills, Wi-Fi, and books. Please do not remove the lunches, because parents might not afford to buy lunches, and if children starve, they can get tired and fail school.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EA third letter finishes by saying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b3162fb91a94eed9c50ccfe4be93552\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Give me the letters. I\u2019ll send them a correct reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be3761a31e1d437eb70fdc60a33bea09\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201COur school lunches\u201D\u2014I\u2019ll get to that, Mr Bates\u2014\u201Cgive us the strength and courage to do our learning properly. Foods digest in our body, which brings us happiness. We have food that makes us full of how good these foods are, and happiness makes us want to be a better person. Being a better person allows us to learn better and be smarter, which means we\u2019ll get good grades. Our school may be the smartest school; you will never know.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, those students, when I visited, knew that I worked in this building, and knew that the very same people\u2014some of whom are sitting opposite me tonight\u2014who are making the decisions in this Budget worked in this building too. They asked whether I would hand deliver those letters to the Prime Minister. I said, \u201CI\u2019ll do what I can.\u201D So I took 68 letters, and I stood in the hallway outside the House one day before question time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b216a4675134d45b28ec1a50d023076\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: With a video camera.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222148cbf942d94be8a725a2441dc50a37\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to catch the Prime Minister on his way into the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022042e9650a6a94fb9a78cd99b873e2f79\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: And film him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e83af262998a45519027368306df657a\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to be able to give him the letters. For the record, I did not have a video camera. Although\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d02d1b91b1d74daba542d99d6426502f\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: You had someone filming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022686d6676f90c46119caef91bc05d3aeb\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014with a background in television, I could have been. For the record, I did not have someone filming. Disappointingly, whilst 68 children and many others in that community had taken the time to write letters to the Prime Minister with their concerns about the content of the Budget and the risk to their school lunches, the Prime Minister refused to take the letters from me. I offered more than once. For the record, he did have two available hands that he could have taken them in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EMore disappointingly, after I mailed them to his office and they were received, the letter I received in reply said, \u201CThe Prime Minister appreciates people taking the time to write to him, but due to the high volume of correspondence he receives, he is not able to reply to every message personally.\u201D\u2014so he has asked me to respond on his behalf\u2014\u201CYour letters are important to the Prime Minister. It tells him how passionate you are about the issue of trying to stop free school lunches in schools. Keep up the excellent work at school, and all the best with your studies.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f9af65126b74d5ba5e0065e4d221363\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, I came into the House, thinking that I was entering the House for the imprest supply debate. I seem to have stepped into an alternative universe in which we\u2019re discussing the postal system in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c04f6f40ed314912a0862b61a7d34892\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve listened diligently to my colleague Mr Davidson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e39566e728544414a0b8c28c599d4239\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Oh God, you poor thing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290e2a0bfa694476d92417036a937fc9c\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Ms Willis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022493f7864c74b47bdb390f2ba4d8da49a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order will be taken in silence. Continue, Mr Tangi Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b33f9cc22ec4480b8f18b0001a09606\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, sir. I\u2019ve listened diligently to my colleague Mr Davidson, and what he has done, from what I\u2019ve heard, is actually reflect on the decisions that have\u00A0been made that are relative to the Budget. While the member may have just indicated that\u00A0she has only recently come down to the House, perhaps if she would actually understand\u2014and she may wish to review the Hansard when she goes back to actually see that the context in which my colleague\u2019s speech is currently being delivered is entirely within order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282c30cbf1a2c4a3e953d564537e435df\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Utikere. I thank you for the points of order. I do reflect that it has been wide ranging, in some cases, on both sides\u00A0of the House today. But I would invite the member in his last seven seconds to wrap it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3ec4edc88b44417997dd117fee94f62\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is a Budget that takes things away from the people who need it most. It won\u2019t do more with less; it will do less with less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022451d799151a74d2ba85230c5ff16d562\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022451d799151a74d2ba85230c5ff16d562\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s great to actually come back to be able to speak on the actual bill and talk about the things that we have been doing and are restoring. While the Opposition seems to take from the successful and give to the poor\u2014that is the way of achieving equality or equity\u2014we in the coalition are in the process or in the business of equality of opportunity. We believe in incentives, in education, in reward for achievement, and in keeping more of what you earn. We believe that staying on a benefit isn\u2019t conducive to your long-term wellbeing and to setting up the next generation for success. That\u2019s why we\u2019re working on getting people into work so they can develop a sense of pride, be a role model, and fan the flame of mana within them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a few elephants in the room that I\u2019d like to address, I guess, which provide context to the imprest supply allocations of the Budget, because those allocations in the Budget are there because of the context which we find ourselves in. One of those is\u2014it\u2019s like a myth buster. One of the Opposition loves to bring up tax cuts for the landlord\u2014$2.9 billion tax cuts for the landlords. I just want to take a moment to analyse that and actually go: well, that tax wasn\u2019t there until they came in, so really what we\u2019re doing is restoring the status quo, like any other business structure around New Zealand that provides a taxable income. Then you have to ask yourself the question: did interest deductibility on rental incomes improve the housing situation across New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c070899114e2445da506c0e70029e23f\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b233a982c54e809eb185798d5f85e0\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON\u003C/span\u003E: No. There were just more properties sitting empty because landlords were afraid to put tenants in them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EBut it gets better, because I looked at a Stuff article from 26 February 2021, and there was analysis done. They questioned: \u201CDo you know how many Kiwis had only one rental?\u201D Did you know there was only 77.9 percent; nearly 80 percent of Kiwis only own one rental? So that will be mums and dads, aunties and uncles, related in many cases to the Opposition. Those are the wealthy landlords\u2014 and I quote\u2014\u201CWhile popular perception had it that all landlords owned multiple properties and reaped big capital gains as a result, the bond data suggested this was not true. Most of the landlords in the country are very much small-time operators, many of whom have the majority of their life savings in that property.\u201D\u2014mum and dad investors, which brings us back to the squeezed middle class. Now, actually, part of the working class has now incorporated some of that middle class because of fiscal drag. Hence the need for measured and meaningful tax reductions so they can keep more of the money they earn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EThe Budget delivers on many key commitments. For the first time, as we\u2019ve heard tonight, in 14 years\u2014that\u2019s a decade plus four years\u2014hard-working New Zealanders will get to keep more of their own money through our Government\u2019s tax relief. This Budget is for everyday people getting on with their lives, the mums and dads taking their kids to school and working hard. This Budget is for the people whose weekly budget expenses have now gone up by $300 or $400 a week because of mortgage increases. This is a Budget for the squeezed middle of New Zealand\u2014the shift workers, the people working multiple jobs and making sacrifices for their kids. This should be Parliament\u2019s focus every day, and we should be measuring a positive difference in the lives of New Zealanders, not just how much money we spend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EThe Budget update expects core Crown tax revenue to be lower by around $18.5 billion, and yet we were able to deliver a significant Budget that will bring us back into surplus in four years\u2019 time. After stripping out large one-off expenses and adjusting for the economic cycle, the Treasury estimates a structural operating deficit of around 1.5 percent of GDP this financial year. And, according to our great honourable Minister Nicola Willis, \u201Cstructural deficit\u201D is a technical term. To put it less formally, New Zealand has been borrowing to pay for the groceries. Yet, since 2010, inflation has pushed up wages in nominal terms, and, as a result, people pay more of their income in tax. The median full-time wage salary earner now earns $73,000 a year and is in one of the highest tax brackets. A minimum wage worker can face a marginal tax rate of 30 percent. Fortunately, we sorted that a couple of weeks ago, and, at the end of July, that will come into effect. We want people to keep more of the money they earn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EPeople\u2019s individual and family circumstances differ widely, and if you haven\u2019t yet availed yourself, may I encourage you to check out our tax calculator. Analysis from Treasury shows an estimated 727,000 households will benefit from at least $75 a fortnight. That\u2019s about $150 a month\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224510739ec83b47898f971d43ad599373\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Missing $100.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f55def5a0f5c4b94bceb56364b0e166e\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014$150 a month, and that would be enough to take your missus out on a hot date, I reckon. You take your partner out for a date\u2014and may I recommend a couple of restaurants, Mr Speaker? If you\u2019re in Hamilton East, you can go to Thyme Square Restaurant or Sage on Grey Street and keep the flame alight in that romantic love light. You might want to take your kids out tenpin bowling and get an ice cream at Duck Island. Or it\u2019s an extra kilogram block of cheese, bread, milk, meat, and chicken, nourishing New Zealand - raised protein, sports uniforms, or a McChicken after netball with your grandparents who came and watched. We have heard that some people say that tax relief only benefits the well-off, but we know that\u2019s simply not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003ETax relief in this Budget puts $3.7 billion a year back into the pockets of New Zealanders. This tax relief is fully funded\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256957f1f52904dd09f4e2fd5875d29a8\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: And $3 billion to landlords.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e1706989f9a43998ee1647bdf0a0ec7\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014fully funded. Did you not hear my first part on landlords? It\u2019s probably your mum or your dad or your granddad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to jump down to one of the other myth busters, because we\u2019ve put a significant investment in law and order in this Budget. And again, why? Because of the context. I didn\u2019t understand\u2014I still struggle\u2014why Labour said, \u201CLet\u2019s reduce the prison population by 30 percent.\u201D I just couldn\u2019t work it out. So, like all non-academics, I googled it. In the New Zealand Herald on 19\u00A0September 2023, former Minister Kelvin Davis was quoted: \u201CWhen we became government at the end of 2017, our prisons were bursting at the seams \u2026 That was a trajectory the New Zealand public would never accept, so we set a goal to reduce the prison population.\u201D They didn\u2019t set a goal to reduce the impacts of crime or the causes, just to reduce the prison population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EAsked if today\u2019s pivot, because remember then at the last minute, last year, the Labour Party reduced that\u2014they removed that. Asked if today\u2019s pivot was because of criticism linking the reduced prison population to increased crime, Hipkins replied, \u201COur overall goal here is to reduce offending in the first place.\u201D But it\u2019s a little bit too late. So our Government has committed to cracking down on crime and keeping communities safe so people can go about their lives in peace. In Budget 2024, we\u2019re investing $2.9 billion in restoring law and order, including $497 million of reprioritisation, which was savings from the existing Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EThis Budget delivers on the commitment made in the National - New Zealand First coalition agreement to add 500 additional front-line police officers. An investment of $226 million will fund their recruitment and retention and ensure they are properly equipped to do their job. A further $425 million will support front-line policing, including boosting police and purchasing vehicles. Our Government always backs the police. The Government\u2019s commitment to restoring law and order means ensuring there are serious consequences for serious offenders. As previously announced, Budget 2024 will invest $1.9 billion in more front-line corrections officers, more support for offenders to turn away from crime, and more prison capacity, including an expansion of Waikeria Prison. The Budget also invests $69 million to address serious youth offending, including a military-style academy pilot and continuing the fast-track youth offending programme run by Oranga Tamariki and Police. This is exciting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I will just summarise a few of our key Budget things. If I haven\u2019t already mentioned, with your tax relief, you\u2019re welcome to come to Thyme Square Restaurant or Sage on Grey Street, Hamilton East. In fact, an offer to members of the Opposition\u2014in fact, anyone in this House, if you come before 31 July, I\u2019ll throw in a free glass of wine. Compliments. They\u2019re not going to vote for me. Tax relief for hard-working New Zealanders: our tax reforms aren\u2019t just about numbers; they\u2019re about putting more money into your pocket. Imagine that extra coffee or a few more groceries. Picture a nurse comforting a patient, a teacher inspiring young minds, or a police officer patrolling our streets. These are the heroes we\u2019re backing. Hospitals, schools, and law enforcement agencies will receive targeted funding to enhance services where they matter most. This is tax relief for the squeezed middle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EHow about our top-up to the multi-year capital allowance of $7 billion so we can invest in the infrastructure needed for future growth and resilience? I\u2019m so proud to commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022671702bc442e4d58b6094508635cfefc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022671702bc442e4d58b6094508635cfefc\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you for this opportunity to speak on this particular bill. And I want to acknowledge the member Ryan Hamilton for his kind offer for restaurants that one might find in Hamilton for people to visit. Well, I can tell that member that what he won\u2019t find in Hamilton is a Super Rugby championship. That was won by the Auckland Blues, and we\u2019ll just leave that one there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBut what I\u2019d like to say about this particular bill is it does something that I like to say is \u201Csigned, sealed, and not delivered\u201D. I want to acknowledge Dr Cheung, and why I want to acknowledge him is he did a very good job of not reading the National Party research group lines but he made an effort to quantify the investment in health. And while I commend that member for the statistics that he threw out into the House this evening, I want to just square off a couple of my own statistics with respect to health and what I perceive to be a lack of investment in this particular Budget on matters, in particular, of M\u0101ori health and rural health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EDuring the urgency that was had to take apart the Pae Ora legislation in the end of February of this year, the health Minister guaranteed this House that business per usual will continue after the Budget and into the next financial year for M\u0101ori health providers and rural health providers. That was a challenge that we put to him at the time. What we\u2019ve seen in the Budget\u2014and I acknowledge Mr Cheung and his statistics with respect to emergency wait rooms. While just over 70 percent of those in rural areas around the country will see their local M\u0101ori health provider and local health provider, they will not see a continuation on the funding that will support them to have outreach into those communities. I\u2019m afraid we are going to need more money in those emergency departments because the health services that can stop families from ending up in the emergency department are not found in this Budget. And that is an absolute travesty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat means that, for places like the Bay of Plenty, where Te Puna Ora o Mataatua have made it clear that this Budget has neglected to see the work that they do in order to stop families, both Ma\u014Dri and P\u0101keh\u0101, ending up in the health system, where we don\u2019t want them to be\u2014where that is is in the emergency department. Let me be very clear for members on that side of the House: what many Ma\u014Dri refer to as the emergency department, we call it the departure lounge because more often than not\u2014and the statistics prove it, for Ma\u014Dri who end up there\u2014it\u2019s already too late. That tells us then that the primary healthcare they need in their communities is not being delivered. And what this Budget has told those communities is there is no money for those initiatives that serve those communities well. It will continue to see the life expectancy of Ma\u014Dri to be significantly less than those of non-M\u0101ori descent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOne of the other ones that M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori health providers are mentioning in their analysis of the Budget is when we look towards the diabetes numbers in this country. Yes, M\u0101ori and Pacific people are overrepresented in those particular statistics. An increasing number of our Indian community are finding a huge spike in those who are impacted and affected by type 2 diabetes. Service providers around this country who don\u2019t have dialysis services in those particular regions have made it clear in their analysis of this Budget that they will not have the services to be able to provide the kind of support that these people so desperately need in the region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s very clear to me is that this particular Budget and this particular bill and the details within it make a case for wrong decisions and make a case for a Government that had an opportunity to go one way but instead chose to go backwards, chose to take funding, and chose to take initiatives off the table and in the hope that they can fool the New Zealand public with a tax break. Well, the public aren\u2019t that silly. When they get on to that calculator that\u2019s been championed by the other side of the House, they\u2019ll see that there is a pittance for them at the end of the week. But what they\u2019ll also realise, too, is that many of the services that they relied upon have been stripped. Those services have been taken away, and now the cost for them to receive those services will go up, which means those tax breaks will mean bugger all, if anything at all. I do not commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002237b2553068a849a4b28d52601abfc7dd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill and the Imprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000801\u0022\u003EBills read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224ced3f06530444148f60b47ce7a750ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ced3f06530444148f60b47ce7a750ba\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a69c9f805fee4b86a7fe63a33dc8a68b\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002266db3de597ad4e11adb257f400512ee4\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00224aa14ae7c7de4d87bc45370dd5fc0a1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224aa14ae7c7de4d87bc45370dd5fc0a1e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f15edb7805bd456f9c39b9e12ece5ca3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Supplementary Estimates) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000806\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000807\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022797323229c94484b8cf097d465789d06\u0022\u003EImprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cea4c4157bc34dd59e29975257f464d9\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002216c73bc57e264b6b950cf36be268683b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216c73bc57e264b6b950cf36be268683b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Imprest Supply (First for 2024/25) Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000811\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002293e87e5f5f05432b97c7b108179eca10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293e87e5f5f05432b97c7b108179eca10\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6ed0ec87d8f427b8fcac300009a7095\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f26f2ac98cc44fdb20ee6478988ae19\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000815\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 30 May.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b156de4571514671b76cd89340c25f6e\u0022\u003EClause 6  Schedule 1AA amended (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002239c4c42219eb4c1684e80aef2ed7ec15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239c4c42219eb4c1684e80aef2ed7ec15\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is committee on the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. When we were last considering this bill, we were debating clause 6. This is the debate on the amendment\u00A0to\u00A0Schedule 1AA of the principal Act and the Schedule. The question is that clause\u00A06\u00A0stand\u00A0part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7acac5308784ef1b12cc14934198e76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7acac5308784ef1b12cc14934198e76\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a real pleasure to continue the committee stage into this bill. The last time we were debating it\u2014I think we\u2019d spent a significant amount of time on that committee stage, and I was reading through the Hansard from the beginning of the debate into clause 6 and just noting some of the comments I had made there, and then what I have done as a result of those comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of the questions I had for the Minister, which I think is a very fair question, is:\u00A0whether he would consider an amendment to the bill so that the percentage increase on levies collected by instalments over a three-month and six-month period were permanently set at zero percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe reason I raise this\u2014and I am very interested in a response from the Minister, because I think this is a fair question\u2014the practice over many years has been that there are three types of instalment payments that can be used in order to add that interest payment to the instalments, which helps compensate ACC somewhat for the reduction in revenue that they get, essentially, by having an instalment plan in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhat clause 17A in tabled amendment D talks about is, essentially, we\u2019re putting this into statute, but what we\u2019re doing is we\u2019re setting it into regulation. So the Minister will have the ability through regulation to actually set these percentages of interest collected going forward. The reason we\u2019re doing that\u2014just to remind the committee\u2014is\u00A0because this has actually been a practice in place at ACC for a very long time and there has been concern around the legality of that. That is why we\u2019re here, so I\u2019m just reminding the committee of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIn my contribution, the last time the House was in committee on this matter, I\u2019d asked the Minister about whether he would put an amendment in to specifically make the three-month instalment period and the six-month instalment period that are outlined there in clause 17(a) and (b), inserted by the Schedule, permanently set at zero percent. Because what the bill does is it sets them at zero percent until regulations are made, and there is a risk that when regulations are made that the Minister and ACC may determine to actually increase that from zero percent, and I think keeping it permanently set at zero percent would be a pragmatic and fair thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I have tabled an amendment in the Chamber tonight that would add new clause 17A to the Schedule. What that would do is it would permanently set the interest payment on that instalment of the levy at zero percent for three months and at zero percent for six months, and you would continue to keep\u2014until regulations are set\u2014the 2.73 percent for the 10-month instalment period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI asked the Minister about this previously. I foreshadowed during that contribution that I would put an amendment in and I\u2019m very keen to hear from the Minister around how he\u00A0seeks to look at that. I do note that my colleague from the Green Party has put a couple of amendments in tonight and I intend to speak to those as well; I\u2019m sure we will hear\u00A0from him also. So I\u2019m just noting to the Chair that I think there\u2019s some usefulness in discussing those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s one that I think could work and one that possibly won\u2019t, so I\u2019m quite keen to take a contribution on those as well if we have time before the House rises at 10 o\u2019clock, but I note that my colleague will probably want to speak to both of those amendments as well. So I\u2019m very keen to hear from the Minister on whether he would look at supporting my amendment that I\u2019ve tabled tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002256d1ef7801a74cc493fc338ace26feeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256d1ef7801a74cc493fc338ace26feeb\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In terms of clause 6 of this particular bill, I also want to be given the opportunity to take a couple of calls on this, because I want to explore the different subclauses here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first one I want to explore is new clause 17 of Schedule 1AA, which our colleague Rachel Boyack has already mentioned as well. A couple of things on this: first of all, in terms of subclauses (a) and (b), when we are looking at the total amount of levy collected over the three-month and six-month periods\u2014I just got myself a copy of the amendment for that as well. We will be in support of having it indicated\u2014and I\u2019ll also be interested to hear from the Minister. But the Greens will be in support of having the three-month and six-month options being permanently set at 0 percent. This will be something that, I think, will be really helpful, in terms of contributing and having that level of certainty around this particular aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe key thing I want to kind of draw attention to is new clause 17(c) of Schedule 1AA, which is the setting of the 2.73 percent on the total of levy collected over the 10-month instalment period. Now, the reason I want to draw attention to this, the first part, is that this particular amount has been set, which is the current amount of 2.73 percent, according to the regulatory impact statement, clause 8. However, it is stated here that, in 2020, the fee for the 10-month plan reduced from 5.4 percent to 2.7 percent as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. This is the amount that currently exists. I kind of wanted to get a sense from the Minister, since we\u2019re putting this legislation through anyway, whether the 5.4 percent has ever been considered, since the 2.73 percent was almost an interim measure. This is one of the first questions I have for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second part around new clause 17 of Schedule 1AA that I want to get some clarification from the Minister on is that, as it stands, clause 6 of the bill makes this amendment and has this insertion of new Part 5 into Schedule 1AA of the primary Act. However, the amendments that follow on, in accordance with new section 239(1)(hb)\u2014which is clauses 5(1) and (2) of the bill\u2014say that any additional adjustments will be done as\u00A0a result of making regulations. I kind of want to know from the Minister whether the making of the regulations will also be inserted as part of the primary legislation, as is indicated\u00A0in what we have here, in terms of subclause 17. And also, when we are looking at regulations, when we are discussing regulations, I\u2019m also conscious of whether we\u2019re looking at the possibility of secondary legislation, and how that potentially works or interacts with the\u00A0new Ministry of Regulations\u2014whether there\u2019s any discussions or conversations, or any need for some sort of collaboration or checking work that has to be done there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo the two questions I have for the Minister on this: the first one is, for clause 6, inserting new clause 17(c) into Schedule 1AA, whether 5.4 percent has been considered instead of 2.73 percent due to the COVID interim measures. And the second question is: whether any future regulations that are made will be incorporated as part of the primary legislation or will they be in secondary legislation or a regulation, and, if so, how would that potentially work with the Ministry of Regulations? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6cdefdef6a94fddab1fd7f21a719774\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6cdefdef6a94fddab1fd7f21a719774\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. It\u2019s great to be back, debating this bill. In response to Rachel Boyack\u2019s amendment\u2014the handwritten amendment with probably some of the neatest handwriting, I must say, I have ever seen. But, no, I would not support her amendment, because it would remove the principle of fairness and would potentially create a perverse incentive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe second amendment\u2014would I support Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendment? His amendment hasn\u2019t been handwritten, but typed, and if he is a true doctor, that\u2019s probably because he hasn\u2019t got very tidy handwriting, I would have thought! But I would not support his amendment because it would remove retrospectivity, which is the intent of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00224c3a325bba8a4f488117030d90c78eda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c3a325bba8a4f488117030d90c78eda\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is actually a really great opportunity for me to speak on my amendment and also the rationale for my amendment, and this is to do with clause 18(2) of Schedule 1AA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThere are two parts to this amendment. The first one is around\u2014so it states, \u201Cthe instalment interest, and all actions of the Corporation\u201D. So the first part of my amendment would replace \u201Call actions\u201D with \u201Cany action\u201D. Now, the reason for that is I would be keen to hear from the Minister whether this could have been used to exploit a potential loophole when all actions done by the corporation in fixing the rate could encompass more than what is the intention of this particular legislation. So, to give an example, let\u2019s say that in the process of the corporation fixing the rate of the instalment interest\u2014when they are visiting a business to discuss these potential changes\u2014they ran a red light and then they had a ticket, etc., would that be considered as an action of the corporation in fixing the rate\u2014because it says \u201Call actions\u201D? So anything that can be, I guess, considered, or even encompassed in this, could be considered legal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would really like to hear from the Minister whether those kinds of scenarios have been suggested or teased out on what \u201Call actions\u201D could potentially encompass, potentially beyond the scope of what is intended in this legislation. So changing it from \u201Call actions\u201D to \u201Cany actions\u201D, I understand, is not the perfect fix, but it also simply limits and narrows it down to a certain degree so that it may not be beyond the scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second part of my amendment is the removal of \u201Cand declared to be and to have always been lawful\u201D. Now, the reason I recommend this is in discussing or looking at this both in terms of clause 18(2) as well as clause 18(3), whereas\u2014and if the Minister could enlighten us\u2014subclause (3) already contains the retrospective nature of this bill, which is \u201Cto be treated as having been lawfully paid to, received by, and applied by the Corporation as if it were part of the levy.\u201D So when I was looking through this legislation, having subclause (2), to include and declare the instalment interest and actions to have always been lawful, seems to be redundant\u2014unless, again, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying\u2014in terms of when you are reading it in conjunction with subclause (3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe only thing I could think of in this case is, legally, these two clauses perform different functions, in which case I will also be appreciative if the Minister would identify and highlight the difference of how subclause (2) and subclause (3) could be read separately and have separate meanings. So, without that level of clarification, my amendments propose to remove \u201Cand declared to be and to have always been lawful.\u201D In this particular case, the reason I want to remove that is focusing on the word \u201Calways\u201D. Again, without any potential analysis or modelling of the potential impact that this will have in future legal claims or legal challenges, as I mentioned in terms of \u201Call actions\u201D as well, what broader implications would there have been to say \u201Calways\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, we already know that this particular thing first presented, as we saw in the regulatory impact statement, that the charging of interest starting in 2004 was not identified until a little while later. Although we are talking about the fact that there is this delay in identifying certain issues, I wanted to know whether the Act would also give ACC the interpretative allowance to potentially explore things that happened before 2004, with the fact that it says it\u2019s \u201Calways\u201D been lawful. So we potentially could be looking at up to 50 years\u2019 worth of variations or changes or things that can be legally dubious. So that is one of the reasons why I made the second part of the amendment\u2014it\u2019s particularly around the word \u201Calways\u201D and not knowing how to read subclause (2) and subclause (3) separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022185d243b145341e2bad2c7eecf71a46b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022185d243b145341e2bad2c7eecf71a46b\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I think, in my first contribution, I answered the question to the second part of Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s questioning. In response to the first part of his amendment, I can assure him that it is specific drafting that is standard practice for the choice of those words\u2014but to reassure him that we are not introducing anything new here but just validating past and current practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcad884313a047b6950cab26fb7bb7f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcad884313a047b6950cab26fb7bb7f5\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to take the opportunity to make a short contribution in the committee tonight just to respond to the amendment tabled by my colleague from the Green Party. I\u2019m hopeful that he will consider allowing a vote on his amendment where the two parts are voted on separately. The Labour Party won\u2019t be supporting the first change that he wants to make, which would be to replace \u201Call actions\u201D with \u201Cany action\u201D. The reason we won\u2019t be doing that\u2014and we have talked about this a lot throughout all readings of this bill, actually\u2014is that we do support the Government\u2019s approach here, which is to validate the previous practices. We do agree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EMy concern, and the Labour Party\u2019s concern, is that changing the words \u201Call actions\u201D to \u201Cany action\u201D would potentially open up a stronger case for a legal challenge, and so we do agree with the Minister and with the Government on that part. However, in the next part, the extra words at the end of that clause do appear to be somewhat redundant and unnecessary, and so we\u2019d be quite happy to support that change to the clause. So I\u2019m hopeful that the member will be comfortable with the committee voting on each of those separately so that we can vote in favour of one and against the other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOn that note, I think I\u2019ve made the Labour Party\u2019s position clear, and I thank my colleague from the Green Party for putting forward these amendments and the arguments in favour of them. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e280d3e4cffe478cbf49eef5f1b9bf77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e280d3e4cffe478cbf49eef5f1b9bf77\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee is suspended, and it will resume at 9 a.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062519e46eee090c40068ee156c04125a8c4000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.59 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fbd3b70ad091485b917b7f8d8f7a3c9c\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 JUNE 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220acd416fb9ea4b948e47750d24191c12\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 26 June 2024)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022390952fe41154313a401e48b0798cc9c\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222eaf62672b5d46658e348cee5d0d1187\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3a42fdf0a9d4281b477851de403a23c\u0022\u003EClause 6  Schedule 1AA amended (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225fbfcab242534286afc6e4e95759cdf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fbfcab242534286afc6e4e95759cdf9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, committee. We are resumed. When we finished last night, we were on the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u00229bd74fbcce88470e8b3848aac406e128\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bd74fbcce88470e8b3848aac406e128\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1ca11e3fa974ec9bc9feb7e66b1f6ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1ca11e3fa974ec9bc9feb7e66b1f6ae\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think this is the third time that we are back talking about the ACC bill as part of the committee stage. So just to recap from last night, if I may, very briefly, so when we are looking at clause 6\u2014now, clause 6 is the crux of the bill and one of the reasons that the Greens are not supporting this bill is because of the retrospective nature, particularly as seen in clause 18 in new Part 5 inserted into Schedule 1AA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI know that previously the Minister for ACC has very kindly gone through some of the background and talked about the fact that this whole process in terms of the retrospectivity\u2014and the reason that this is coming through as part of the legislation has been agreed upon by ACC and the Ministry for Business, Innovation and Employment but not necessarily had obviously the time to consult with businesses. I wanted to check with the Minister whether from a legality perspective the retrospectivity has been tested against the presumption against retrospectivity, as one of the legal presumptions. The reason I mention this is, again, like in terms of any form of presumption we\u2019re looking at from a legal perspective, there need to be some sorts of checks and balances and some sort of accountability and some sort of scope in which case it\u2019s not going to create a butterfly effect, so to speak, when we are introducing a particular bill into the House or that potentially has a follow-on effect in terms of both case law but also in terms of some of the other legal elements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo I guess my question to the Minister is: from a legality perspective, has this been tested in the context of the presumption against retrospectivity, and has there been any work done in terms of checking through case law on the broader implications this will have on other potential bills in the future that will be introduced that potentially will introduce a retrospective element, or the historical context and precedence that was set as part of this\u00A0retrospectivity? Yes, we have previously explored the operational and the business\u2014and I\u00A0also understand even, like, colleagues from across the House talking about the potential burden on ACC if the retrospectivity was not introduced and the kind of legal implication it may have for ACC. But, yes, we talked about the operation bit, but I wanted to ask from a legality perspective whether this is something that the Minister has considered or has been given advice on. So, yeah, that would be my question. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002259a55c3b8b7e4fac8704ec41c0bf428f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259a55c3b8b7e4fac8704ec41c0bf428f\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. To respond to my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, who\u2019s leading the charge in this epic hourly debate of the ACC bill: as he knows, because it\u2019s been traversed many times before, retrospectivity guidelines go through the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee guidelines, and this bill meets their threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00224f9a3d3cc6f547ecb20dc02f5a77402a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f9a3d3cc6f547ecb20dc02f5a77402a\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do just want to come back to contributions made last night and the Minister for ACC\u2019s response to my question about my Amendment Paper in particular. Can I just begin by saying I did appreciate his commentary about my handwriting. When you\u2019re the daughter of a teacher, that\u2019s what happens. I will acknowledge I did learn cursive handwriting, but obviously that hasn\u2019t translated into the final handwriting style that I used. But I do appreciate the very kind words about my handwriting. Thank you for the compliment, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI want to come back to my Amendment Paper around clause 17 that\u2019s in new Part 5 inserted into Schedule 1AA. The Minister\u2019s response as to why he wouldn\u2019t accept my amendment, which would permanently make the percentage of interest payable on a three-month instalment period zero percent, and on a six-month instalment period zero percent, was because it wouldn\u2019t allow flexibility going into the future. I just have to put on record that that actually concerns me. This has been the practice for some time\u2014that if you have an instalment over a period of three months or six months, it\u2019s only zero percent. We know that one of the reasons this legislation has come to the House is because it has been the practice for a large number of years, and what the schedule seeks to do is allow the Minister to make regulations in the future that would change that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThat is of concern to us in the Labour Party\u2014that this has been the practice for some time\u2014and I guess what I would like to hear from the Minister actually isn\u2019t that he\u2019s looking for that flexibility, but that he is actually committed to retaining the zero percent interest payable for those three-month and six-month periods. The 2.73 percent is the amount that\u2019s currently included for a 10-month instalment, and so we accept that that is the current rate.\u00A0But, throughout this debate, we have asked the Minister and just put on record those elements of concern we should always have around the use of secondary legislation. And that is, essentially, what this part does. So I and the Labour Party would like to see some more certainty, even if he actually goes as far as to say into the Hansard today that it would not be\u00A0his intent to change that zero percent. I think that would provide some assurance to small\u00A0businesses, who are the ones who often use this, alongside sole traders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhat it does open up is the potential for that zero percent rate to be changed, and one of the benefits of us being able to use these tools is that people can access the ability to pay for their levies over a period of time at a cheaper rate than having to use other tools. What I wouldn\u2019t want to see is people who are doing a short three-month or six-month instalment period having to then make the choice to go and use a different type of financing tool\u2014so,\u00A0potentially, going to a bank or another financing tool that might have interest applied to it\u2014because, for such a small period of time, three months or six months actually, there\u2019s an administrative burden and an administrative cost to doing that, in terms of having to take the time to go and make an appointment at a bank; all of those kinds of things. So there\u2019s some unintended consequences if we are to lift that three-month instalment interest rate above zero percent, and in the six-month as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI appreciate that the Minister responded, but I just was concerned about the Minister\u2019s response that it opened us up to that flexibility. I really would like to hear from the Minister that there\u2019s no intent to change that zero percent rate, because I think, for people listening, small businesses listening in who access this tool, having that certainty is going to be very important for them. But, as I\u2019ve said, I do accept the 10-month instalment period\u2014the\u00A0 2.73\u00A0percent is the current rate\u2014so I\u2019ve no objection to that being written into the Act in that nature. I would just appreciate that clarity from the Minister. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022abcec4dc96ab4ca5ae8c89ad71685700\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abcec4dc96ab4ca5ae8c89ad71685700\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I understand the proposition of Rachel Boyack\u2019s questioning, but I would just point out the advice I\u2019ve received is that, in fact, up to 2021, under the last Government, the instalments for three and six months were 5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00223d59bea99f8c4ba8b2b13cf0b1fc49d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d59bea99f8c4ba8b2b13cf0b1fc49d2\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to contribute to this committee stage. I didn\u2019t have the opportunity last night, but I was questioning the Minister for ACC during the Budget week about the legal advice that he had received and I don\u2019t understand\u2014or I haven\u2019t had it reported to me, and I have been following this debate\u2014the reasons that he\u2019s unable to share even a little bit of that advice with us. Obviously, being the client of the legal advice, it\u2019s within his ambit to do that. But I wanted to just contribute to this debate in a couple of ways: firstly, by supporting my colleague Rachel Boyack\u2019s Amendment Paper for the Schedule, which we are debating, and, secondly, to look at the amendments tabled by my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan. First, a question\u2014procedurally, as I understand it, the two changes that he has suggested to the schedule in new Part 5 of Schedule 1AA have now been tabled separately. That\u2019s a kind of question to ask for the procedure of the committee, whether that has in fact occurred and whether they will be voted on separately, because I understood that was Dr Xu-Nan\u2019s intention in relation to those two particular changes. So if we could have that confirmed, that would be really helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second question I have is in relation to the deletion that he has suggested to page\u00A03, lines\u00A028 and 29. In new clause 18(2) of Schedule 1AA, he has suggested, and it\u2019s something that we support, deleting \u201Cand declared to be and \u2026 have always been lawful\u201D. Now, I have been following the debate, and I know the Minister has said he won\u2019t be\u2014as I understand\u2014supporting that particular amendment. But what I wanted to follow up with the Minister is: would he support a change to that amendment to only delete \u201Cand to have always been\u201D in new clause 18(2) of Schedule 1AA? So the sentence would then read: \u201Cand declared to be lawful\u201D. I think that addresses some of the retrospectivity issues that have rightly been commented on by the committee so far. We know, and we accept, that one of the principles of good lawmaking is that retrospectivity should be avoided. That would make those payments lawful moving forward and would avoid that retrospectivity. So that is what I\u2019m suggesting. If the Minister is mindful to accept that, I would be happy to table that as an additional amendment, edited slightly from what Mr Xu-Nan has put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said, we support that but understand that it\u2019s unlikely to succeed if the Minister doesn\u2019t support it. So would he support a smaller reduction to that, and, if not, can he give us, if not the exact legal advice he\u2019s received, the legal advice to show that there is a realistic risk faced by the State\u2014and we can be aware of those risks as parliamentarians\u2014that is so great that it then outweighs the principle of this House not passing retrospective law? Essentially, that\u2019s what the Minister is asking us to do here: accept that the risk to the State of possible litigation moving forward in relation to these interest payments is such a grave risk that it should allow us to pass a law that retrospectively disallows that type of action. I think that is an important point. I\u2019m not saying that his decision in the end might not be the correct one, but I think the committee and I would appreciate some additional elucidation of the reasons for that, and if in fact that is a concern, or maybe it isn\u2019t outweighed, whether he would agree to that slightly amended change that might be more agreeable to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cce2f5e8027843b8946147e7a1ffae02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cce2f5e8027843b8946147e7a1ffae02\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call, yes there will be two\u2014the two questions will be dealt with, so to reassure you on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb0033d895584b3ca1ddf18033685c4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb0033d895584b3ca1ddf18033685c4a\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220b891a4d6bc74b1b8977b7d491d3dd32\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002277733ae45f1a49399308a1a0cf6ab632\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 6 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 6 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224f29cb18cedc499eb65ffd181de2a6d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f29cb18cedc499eb65ffd181de2a6d5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We come now to the Schedule. The question is that Rachel Boyack\u2019s tabled amendment to the Schedule inserting new clause 17A to Schedule 1AA be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022852da8cd2b7d4ad0b9691fc784192794\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2b7094ffabf460fb1801a2f06e5ac4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2b7094ffabf460fb1801a2f06e5ac4f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to the Schedule replacing \u201Call actions\u201D with \u201Cany actions\u201D in new clause 18(2) of Schedule 1AA be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228dc0996113f1486993850073bbe1e5b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220d17213987004c85805a714405ddc3ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d17213987004c85805a714405ddc3ba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to the Schedule deleting \u201Cand declared to be and to have always been lawful\u201D from clause 18(2) of Schedule 1AA be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e0885bb6c51840d486ae0b0c95db8bea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229840966c94774689ab8b140913c8d4d2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000027\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000028\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab6d1d900ec2488f9885aaf9cfd8e3da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab6d1d900ec2488f9885aaf9cfd8e3da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227a8734f9a10a4b0ca0896b88fdd5e4d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a8734f9a10a4b0ca0896b88fdd5e4d0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220640af06a8c94465b8d477ec233ce560\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022a55de03b9c0849738795b58766153176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a55de03b9c0849738795b58766153176\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EAs I have mentioned, the amendment bill will make it clear that ACC has the legal authority to charge debit interest on payments of work account levies by instalments. Instalment plans are an important resource for businesses and self-employed levy payers that may otherwise be unable to pay their ACC levies on time without other more expensive forms of finance. Charging debt interest ensures that both ACC and the levy payers who pay their levies in lump sums are not disadvantaged by having the option for paying by instalments available. The amendment bill clarifies that charging this debit interest is lawful, ensuring that ACC can continue to charge debit interest in future. It also resolves an uncertainty over ACC\u2019s past and current practice of charging debit interest and draws a line under it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill also provides a way for dividend interest on instalment plans to be updated in future. Any updates to the rates will only be made after public consultation on options and there will be no changes for levy payers when the amendment bill initially comes into force. The bill is preserving a reasonable and fair practice so it can continue. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cecdd73ec8a644c89a8c2717d8d2be42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cecdd73ec8a644c89a8c2717d8d2be42\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00220bf7b8cc20c1489fabef1e3ed95ce17b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bf7b8cc20c1489fabef1e3ed95ce17b\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure\u2014we\u2019ve finally made it to the third reading. I thank the Minister for ACC for his forbearance\u2014that we have made it to the third reading of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. Labour supports this bill, but throughout the process that we\u2019ve undertaken in discussing this bill at various readings and through the committee stage, we have made some observations and comments around some concerns we do have around how this will roll-out in future, and I will touch on those shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ECan I begin though by acknowledging the taonga that ACC is. ACC has been in place\u00A0for 50 years now. We are very proud, as the Labour Party, to be the party that introduced the world-leading ACC scheme into New Zealand, and we are very, very lucky to have it. It does require our ongoing protection; I note that this week we are likely to see the results of consultation over job losses at ACC, which, on this side of the House, does give us some deep concern. On this side of the House, we want to see ACC continue to be strengthened, to continue to be made fairer and more equitable so that more people are able to access ACC and receive the compensation, support, and rehabilitation that they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI will now come to the bill. What the bill does, as the Minister has explained, is it introduces a regulation-making power that allows ACC to charge debit interest on levies that are paid under instalment plans. Now, this particular practice has been in operation for a couple of decades. What has led us to this legislation was that between ACC and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, there were different points of view around the legality of that practice. We\u2019ve gone into that in quite a bit of detail, looking at the Accident Compensation Act to specifically note that the way the law is currently drafted might not quite be tight enough and might expose the Crown to some legal risk. I want to acknowledge previous Ministers for ACC from the Labour Party Carmel Sepuloni and particularly Peeni Henare, who had begun some of this policy work, and it is good to see this now come through the House. Anything that can expose the Crown to some legal risk obviously does need to be addressed, and we accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI would say, though, that as part of that legal risk being addressed, the legislation has had to be made retrospective. This is why in the committee of the whole House stage we didn\u2019t support part of our friend from the Green Party\u2019s suggested amendment, because one\u00A0of the purposes of this legislation is to reduce that risk to the Crown. Unfortunately\u2014and I\u00A0do say unfortunately\u2014that\u2019s meant we\u2019ve had to apply retrospective legislation. I think the House should always be very, very careful when they do choose to do that. I note that the advice from officials was that this piece of legislation had to come through urgency to, again, avoid legal risk. I guess there could have been an opportunity for a truncated select committee process and that would have given an opportunity to have had some more debate around some of these elements. I think that when members of the public look at what the Parliament is doing and making changes to law that apply for such a broad piece of time, I think they\u2019re right to query that, to put on record that there\u2019s a concern. So we in the Labour Party have certainly made our concerns known around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other thing that has caused us some concerns and has led to a lot of the follow-on in the committee stage is about the use of secondary legislation. We are seeing under every Government\u2014this isn\u2019t a criticism of the Government; this is just an observation\u2014more of a move towards secondary legislation. In the Parliament, obviously, we make good use of the Regulations Review Committee, but I think, actually, we all need to be mindful of the use of secondary legislation and the limitations that then places on the ability of the Parliament to actually make decisions that we have been elected to do on behalf of people. And that\u2019s, again, not a criticism, just an observation, and I think something that, actually, most of us in the House are mindful of. So on that note, I do have some concerns around the regulation-making power that might then lead to a higher interest penalty paid by those people who need to access this particular tool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI will just cover off again quickly why the tool is so useful. When people pay their ACC levies into the worker account, you get a bill and you need to pay it all in one go. We have a very large number of small to medium sized enterprises and sole traders in New Zealand. There\u2019s a number of people running small businesses, a number of people operating on a day-to-day basis as a sole trader. Paying all of your levies in an upfront, lump sum - type payment can have a negative impact on cash flow. And we know, for those businesses, cash is king; having strong cash flow is one of the most critical things to those businesses being able to continue operating. So it is a very pragmatic approach for ACC to say, \u201CYes, you can pay your levies in an instalment.\u201D And that\u2019s a good thing to be able to do. It\u2019s also not unreasonable for ACC to say, \u201CThere is a cost to us for doing that, because we have the opportunity cost of not receiving that income right at the beginning and there\u2019s an administrative cost as well.\u201D So I would hope most people in the House would say, \u201CThat\u2019s fair; that\u2019s a reasonable approach to take.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe question becomes: what is the percentage set at? That is ultimately the question about what is fair. One of the observations I make is that as we see interest rates go up and down, that\u2019s actually a very important consideration, because what you want to do with this particular tool that ACC uses is you want to ensure that the interest rate paid is less than what you would overwise access through another source of finance, such as through a bank. You also want to consider the opportunity cost, again, of potentially having to take the time, make an appointment with your bank manager, go and have the conversation, make a loan application, or whatever it might be\u2014all of those things that take time for a small business owner. So all of those things need to be considered. ACC, to be fair, also has to consider the impact on everybody else who contributes into that worker account and pays the full amount on time\u2014the taxpayer, everybody else who contributes into the ACC scheme. It\u2019s absolutely fair and reasonable to consider that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ELooking back, ACC has applied a pragmatic approach in terms of the penalty rates that have been put in place. But my concern\u2014and I\u2019ve raised it in the final stage of the committee stage\u2014is that there\u2019s now going to be the flexibility for the Minister to increase what is currently being paid, and that happens through a regulation rather than coming through to the House. I note his comments that there\u2019ll be consultation; I think that consultation is absolutely critical. I did ask questions about how that consultation would occur, and I didn\u2019t get enough detail. Again, these are the kinds of things that would actually be explored in great detail if the bill had had the time to come to select committee, if select committee members had had the opportunity to actually ask these questions specifically of officials, if we\u2019d had the opportunity to have a departmental report explaining how these things would work. All of these things are part of how the Parliament operates that are useful and we haven\u2019t been able to do here. So we have explored a lot through the committee stage because of that decision by the Government not to send this to select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI do want to put on record that what I want to see, and what Labour wants to see, is very robust and strong consultation with those who are affected, with those who undertake the use of these instalment plans. We also want to ensure that the rates that are set are fair\u2014that they actually do incentivise people to use the ACC payment plan, rather than using a different source of finance to access the cash that is needed to pay the lump sum right when it is due. I don\u2019t think those concerns that we\u2019ve raised are unreasonable. I want to make sure it\u2019s there on the Hansard that that\u2019s Labour\u2019s position. We understand that we do need to implement this legislation; one of the reasons we are supporting it is because we do have to limit any liability to the Crown, and Labour is very supportive of that. So thank you, Mr Speaker. On that note, Labour supports this bill and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00224af398252d424543af49035cf76c5208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224af398252d424543af49035cf76c5208\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We are now at the third reading of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. Thank you so much to everyone who contributed immensely during the committee stage so that we were able to clarify some elements of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think, to start with, this bill looks at two components. The first component is giving the legal authority to ACC to be able to charge interest on instalments. That, in itself, is something that the Green Party is supportive of, and particularly in terms of when we are looking at the goal of ACC. However, the second part, around retrospective validation, which I\u2019ll talk more about later, is an area that we have deep concerns on. Before that, I also want to mention that we are also incredibly grateful to the Minister for ACC, who has been able to be engaging and answer our questions during the committee stage, as well, as we\u2019re going through this bill. Because of these two elements, I want to first raise the fact that one of my amendments to change the title to include both elements of this bill, which would then make it the \u201CAccident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans and Retrospective Validation) Amendment Bill\u201D, was not supported, which I think is a shame because it would clarify both elements of this bill enormously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of the first part, when we are talking about the process in which ACC is able to establish the interest plan\u2014and part of this also comes down to clause 6, inserting new Part 5 in Schedule 1AA\u2014one of the things that was also drawing our attention was to do with the existing instalment plan options. We talked about the fact that for three- and six-months\u2019 stages, it is currently at zero percent interest, but for the 10-month stage, it is at 2.73 percent, which is the current practice by ACC. But, in terms of the process for setting new instalment plans, it\u2019s something that we questioned the Minister on and tried to get additional clarification on. This is something that I kind of would like to highlight because one of the things we would draw attention to is, number one, the fact that ACC may or may not need the option to have to charge the interest. This is a flexibility that is given to ACC as indicated in clause 4 of the bill, and I think that flexibility is incredibly important to give to the corporation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, in clause 5, inserting new sections 329(1)(hb), 329(2)(2A), and 329(2)(2B), which talks about the process whereby consultation is needed, a four-week consultation is in fact needed by the corporation before a recommendation is made to the Minister. But in clause\u00A05, it\u2019s from the Minister\u2019s perspective how the Minister takes up that recommendation and how the Minister implements that recommendation from the corporation, which generated a lot of discussion during the committee stage. Part of that is to do with the fact that it is not clear. I\u2019m hoping that the Minister did clarify that the Minister must not\u2014as opposed to just have to\u2014put forward any changes to the making of the regulation or any changes to the instalment plan and instalment rate unless receiving that recommendation from ACC. I think this is incredibly crucial from the context that what we don\u2019t want to see is a situation where, if the Minister is not taking on the ACC\u2019s recommendation after they have conducted all this consultation with businesses etc., there is the possibility of the Minister operating ultra vires. This is something that was teased out through the committee stage. I was, again, really appreciative of the Minister being able to clarify and also kind of enlighten the House around some of these issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMoving on to the second part of this bill around retrospective validation, and this is the part that we do disagree with and which is, ultimately, the reason why the Greens will not be supporting this bill is because of this fact. So as the previous speaker, Rachel Boyack, mentioned, what we didn\u2019t manage to see for this particular bill is that select committee stage where we\u2019re able to hear from the public. Again, I appreciate the fact that this particular bill may need to be put through under urgency due to the fact that it will potentially open up to certain challenges. But, again, one of the things we drew attention to in the regulatory impact statement is the fact that this particular regulatory impact statement was something that was already available in April last year and it has taken until now, under urgency, to put this through. So, again, I would echo the previous speaker\u2019s sentiment that even a truncated\u2014you know, nothing has kind of happened up until now, so even if a truncated select committee process was put in place, it may have given us the reassurance needed to actually possibly support this bill if we were given the opportunity to hear from the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, on that, again, the retrospective validation is something that both ACC and the Ministry of Innovation, Business and Employment agreed to, but as we heard from the Minister, it was not something that they had the opportunity to consult businesses on. In fact, there was very little data. There was data around how much of the levy would have been affected as part of this collection of the interest, but then there wasn\u2019t enough information given on how many of them currently have to pay interest on that. It is presumed that about one third of the businesses are currently using that 10-month option. So this is one of the things that we found kind of concerning\u2014the lack of data that was able to be put around something like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of this, the other angle that we looked at is the fact that when we are looking at retrospectivity, this is something that must be weighed carefully. I think any legislation that does have a retrospective component to it ought to have that select committee process. I understand, for example, the potential mistakes or the legal ambiguity that something like this has created for the Crown and for the executive and for the agency. But as a legislature, our role is to hold that executive accountable, not simply sort of bailing them out when we have found a mistake was made. I think that it is incredibly concerning to us. One of our bottom lines around retrospectivity is to be able to have all of the information that we are able to get, and we weren\u2019t able to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the things we have also been unable to get clarification on is the breadth of that retrospectivity. One of the things to do with this was that we tabled an amendment on new section 18(2) of Schedule 1AA, inserted by clause 6, and how it says that all actions of the corporation in fixing the rate \u201Care valid and declared to be and to have always been lawful.\u201D There was some uncertainty, and something that we didn\u2019t manage to get a clarification on is how much does that \u201Call actions\u201D encompass? Does it only encompass what we already know, or does it potentially also encompass elements that we don\u2019t already know? So, again, this is something that we are finding incredibly concerning with that particular part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOf course, as has been mentioned across the House, we see ACC as being a great thing and a great agency and something for us to have here in Aotearoa New Zealand, and there\u2019s nothing that would make the Greens happier than seeing ACC one day transforming into something like the agency for comprehensive care. But when something like this happens, when we\u2019re seeing something that they are doing that is already legally dubious and we have to use the tools available to the legislature to bail them out of a particular situation, when we\u2019re seeing some of the cuts that are currently happening at ACC, when we\u2019re seeing the issues around the dispute resolution process, we can\u2019t continue to support ACC on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u002277ab5be537c6477b8ba12b81bb30b9eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277ab5be537c6477b8ba12b81bb30b9eb\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call to support the third reading of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill, and I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of the ACT Party. As the name says, \u201CInterest on Instalment Plans\u201D, so that is what this bill is to fix. This is an issue about the\u00A0interest on instalment plans that has been charged by ACC and this is something that has been happening for around 20 years. So it\u2019s not something new\u2014Government after Government didn\u2019t notice this\u2014but it has been noticed now, so it is important that we fix\u00A0it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWhat this legislation does is it validates the practice that ACC has been practising for a number of years\u2014that is, charging debit interest on one of the instalment plans. We know that ACC is a system that we all like, and I know that it is the envy of a number of countries around the world. So ACC provides that support that is needed by those who get injured in an accident; this is regardless of fault, and this takes cares of those bills that people might incur because of the GP visits. This also takes care of compensation for people missing out on income from their work. We want to see that the reputation of our\u00A0ACC scheme is maintained, and we also want to see that we are not exposing the Crown, or ACC, to any kind of legal risk, and that\u2019s why this legislation is really important to be passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important to note that what ACC does is it provides that option of paying a levy\u2014of course, people can pay their levy on an annual basis, the whole amount\u2014but then it gives the option of taking up the instalment plan, and then people can pay in three months, six months, or 10 months. What has been happening is that for the 10-month plan, ACC has been\u2014in that payment that they received back from these people\u2014charging debit interest. It is not very clear\u2014it is not in the current legislation that they could do it, and that is what we are trying to fix through this legislation. So, basically, ACC will be allowed to make the\u00A0decision of charging debit interest once this legislation goes through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EI have heard from members from the other side of the Chamber, especially the Green member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, about the retrospective nature of this legislation. I want to emphasise that retrospective nature in any legislation is not common, but in this legislation, it\u2019s really important because this is something that has been happening for a number of years, and it is about protecting the reputation of our ACC scheme and not exposing the Crown to any kind of risk. It\u2019s important that we fix this. It\u2019s not going to benefit an individual; it\u2019s about benefiting the whole scheme to make sure that the reputation of the scheme is intact. So the ACT Party is supporting this bill and we commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u00222b54c4cccf554f08b08f35e1298bf996\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b54c4cccf554f08b08f35e1298bf996\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and a pleasure it is to stand on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. In New Zealand First, we support this bill because it ensures that ACC\u2019s past practices of charging interest are legally validated, preventing any legal ambiguities in potential disputes\u2014so removing that potential risk to the Crown\u00A0and ACC. New Zealand First also believes that the bill will promote transparency and fairness in how interest rates are determined and applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003ETherefore, we believe that this bill actually aligns, also, with our principles as a party of fairness and transparency, providing necessary legal clarity and protecting the interests of both ACC and the levy payers as well, thereby ensuring that our compensation system, which is world renowned\u2014and many of us have used it or our families have used the system. We\u2019ve been reliant on it to support us through injury and into a healing pathway back to full health. So whatever we can do to ensure that our system remains robust, with that fairness and transparency as well, is going to ensure that we have a fair system for all New Zealanders. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u002201be7372be904056a3090657620594cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201be7372be904056a3090657620594cf\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to oppose the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. I just want to acknowledge, first of all, that this bill isn\u2019t the worst thing in the world. I think out of all the bills that the Government has proposed, this is probably one of the most benign ones and it\u2019s something that the Greens would have come on board to support if it weren\u2019t for the two aspects that we found quite problematic, which previous Green speakers have already spoken at length about. This bill is relatively benign in comparison to some of the other bills that the Government has done. For example, they\u2019ve defunded the climate emergency, they\u2019ve cut public servants, and they\u2019ve taken away first-home grants. But this bill is actually, from a public service perspective, fairly good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the past Green speakers Kahurangi Carter, Scott Willis, and Lawrence Xu-Nan, who\u2019ve shared their personal anecdotes about ACC\u2014Kahurangi and her family, Scott and his finger, and Lawrence, who\u2019s done a great job speaking on this bill and holding the Government to account. Unfortunately, I\u2019m a gamer, so I haven\u2019t had a chance to have many accidents, but I have worked at ACC before, so that\u2019s kind of the experience that I bring to this as a portfolio adviser.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ESo just two unique features of ACC\u2014and this bill intends to safeguard aspects of it\u2014one of them is that ACC has a no-fault system and the other is that ACC is self-funding. Now, this bill is intended to retroactively validate the collection of fines and the interest rates that were charged on them, which makes perfect sense, right? There\u2019s actually a real commercial benefit to businesses being able to defer payments. So that\u2019s a very sensible aspect of the bill and one that the Greens would probably have supported if it weren\u2019t for the kind of processes and the urgency that surrounded this, and also the retrospective validation clause, which is not inherently problematic\u2014but when you add to the cause of the urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWe do want to see the definition of ACC coverage progressively expand. We\u2019ve heard, during the debates, friendly jostling between the Opposition benches, between comrades in Labour and the Greens, about who was responsible for expanding it to cover birthing injuries\u2014I think it\u2019s both of us\u2014but we do want to see it go further and faster. We do want to see it transformed into the agency of comprehensive care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EIn terms of the actual urgency process, it did skip the select committee process, which we do find problematic. We did ask questions throughout the whole process and there\u2019s still a number of unanswered questions, which I\u2019ll go through when I describe how the urgency process went. That was a very interesting process. I\u2019m not sure whether it\u2019s still actually 30\u00A0May or whether we\u2019ve skipped and it\u2019s now 26\u00A0June again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EIn the clause 1 debate, my colleague Lawrence asked whether businesses would have confidence around retrospectivity. Minister for ACC, Matt Doocey, did address it but, in my view, he didn\u2019t provide quite a fulsome answer. My colleague Scott Willis also brought up an excellent point about the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee. We know that there\u2019s been no consultation around it, but we do wonder whether there\u2019s been a chance to consult since then, because it\u2019s been nearly a month since the bill went through the initial stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EAround clause 2, my colleague Lawrence Xu-Nan asked about why the legislation was here when the ministry had known since last year\u2014I believe 1\u00A0April was the date\u2014and why it was being done under urgency when none of it is necessarily time relevant. I think the Minister did give quite a fulsome answer and comprehensively answer the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EAround clause 3, unfortunately, no Green MP managed to get calls on it. But, you know, I think it does speak to the point that I raised earlier that there are questions that haven\u2019t been asked, and questions that haven\u2019t been answered because they haven\u2019t been asked around it. Because I was here for basically all of the committee of the whole House and I think Green MPs were very active in standing up to try and take calls, but not all of us were able to get calls unfortunately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EAround clause 4, my colleague Lawrence asked about new section 234(1A) and (1B). Again, the Minister did give quite fulsome answers on that. Around clause 5, I did manage to ask a question around new section 329(1)(hb)(ii): \u201Cthe circumstances in which the payment of the whole or any part \u2026 may be remitted or waived:\u201D, when I asked for a breakdown of the 30,000 that the regulatory impact statement had addressed. The Minister did address this question and I do thank the Minister for being so fulsome in answering these questions. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002247f58517dca947908c794511270a32ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247f58517dca947908c794511270a32ee\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the next call, you will\u00A0note that I didn\u2019t call the five-minute call for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. That five-minute call will\u00A0now go to the end on the assumption that they may or may not be here by the end of this reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u002261de62f2e0ca4ed0b245c747927c5fe4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261de62f2e0ca4ed0b245c747927c5fe4\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a good opportunity to stand up and summarise, I think, the fact that the Minister for ACC has answered plentifully any concern raised from the opposite side. This is a very important administrative bill, to make sure that it goes through, and I\u2019m very pleased, on that note, to be able to commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002266059f389e6a4647a00129a7cdeb13d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266059f389e6a4647a00129a7cdeb13d6\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to say a few words about the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s one of those bills that feels like it has been around for a while, because there\u2019s been a stop-start process that has traversed a couple of late nights and various urgency arrangements, but it hasn\u2019t really, and we haven\u2019t had that long to consider the information, to ask questions, and to sort of ventilate and mull over some of the implications. As I said, it has gone through an urgency process, which has meant that this House hasn\u2019t been afforded the opportunity to have a select committee process\u2014the way in which we do things\u2014and to get that departmental report and to have those questions that we may have liked to have lingered on answered in a little bit more of a robust way. But never mind; this is where we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge what my colleague Rachel Boyack said earlier on today: we need to remind ourselves that ACC\u2014the Accident Compensation Corporation\u2014is a taonga. It is so incredibly important, and it is quite a unique and groundbreaking and innovative mechanism through which many people in this country have been able to have compensation, have been able to have support, and have been able to manage their rehabilitation when accidents occur. And, of course, it came via the very real desire to avoid a faults-based system, where we could rely upon that compensation when we needed it without having to go through such a litigious process, as we see happening in many other places in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWith that in mind, I recall on Monday\u2014which was only two days ago, so one would hope I would\u2014talking to a small-business owner in the Banks Peninsula electorate, in Woolston, specifically about ACC. I had reached out to Rachel Boyack, who, I know, is very passionate about ACC, to see if she had any advice about the specific concerns that this small-business owner was raising. She wasn\u2019t attempting to disparage the system, in so far as a small-business owner who works closely within the system; she wanted to provide some feedback. We acknowledge that ACC is such a mammoth kind of beast, almost, that there\u2019s always going to be amendments and there\u2019s always going to be improvements and changes that we can make to ensure that we do the best by it and make sure that it\u2019s in tip-top shape. So it was lovely to speak to her and to gather that feedback, which I will be duly passing on to my colleague Rachel Boyack, to feed into our bevy of information about what Labour will do differently in Government next time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe specific aspects of this bill that required tinkering with, and required a change and an amendment, were a little bit more pressing and a little bit more serious, so to speak, because they had, essentially, shown that ACC had been acting in a way, arguably, in the past, that was not necessarily consistent with how it should have been. We note that certainly the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) and ACC had slightly differing views about whether ACC had been acting outside its legislative scope, and the advice from MBIE was to amend the Act, and here is where we find ourselves today, in order to provide that legislative clarity about the interest that has been charged when businesses\u2014small businesses in particular\u2014make the most of and take the opportunity to pay off those levies via instalment. So the broad purpose of the bill was, essentially, to introduce that regulation-making power so that they could do that in relation to that debit interest on levies, and they could also have prior behaviour retrospectively validated. The bill would introduce a regulation-making power that sets out the circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EOn the surface of it, when we look at it both in terms of the three instalment plans and the\u00A0zero percent, zero percent, and 2.73 percent interest rates respectively that are applied to\u00A0those\u00A0three instalment plans, and also the retrospectivity, it doesn\u2019t seem like it\u2019s particularly\u00A0contentious, in so far as the fact that we said, from the outset, it was something that we would support. We know that previous Ministers for ACC had identified that there was work required here, and so it shouldn\u2019t be particularly onerous to get this across the line. But I do note that our colleagues in the Green Party took particular exception to the retrospectivity, which, I think, has been an issue that we have had somewhat of an opportunity to talk about through this process, but probably not as much as we should have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI note my colleague Camilla Belich had raised some very good points about how this concept relates not just to this bill in particular, and whether the detrimental aspects or the erroneous aspects of what had been happening in the past\u2014the consequences\u2014truly do warrant setting a precedent for making and passing a piece of legislation that has that retrospective aspect to it. And, again, that would be something that I know I, for one, would have liked to have heard from some more people about and been able to ventilate a bit more and hear from some experts and kick around a bit, just so that as lawmakers, as is our obligation in this House, we could have all been fully, fully comfortable with the ramifications and the nuances of what this means, not only for this bill but for everything else that we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI also note that my colleague Rachel Boyack had put forward an amendment, which I think is worth talking a little bit more about, because the amendment\u2014this one in particular\u2014essentially said that it would have given the opportunity for the Minister for\u00A0ACC to ensure that the three- and the six-month instalments that were relative to this\u00A0instalment plan could have been set at zero percent permanently. She mentioned that there has, obviously, been custom and practice involved in that. But given there\u2019s now going to be the mechanism in place for a regulatory process that means that could be changed in the future, I think it would have been a really good step forward in so far as assuring not just some continuity but some confidence, particularly from small-business owners, that that wasn\u2019t something that was immediately going to change post the regulatory process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EShe made that point, I think, very well, in so far as we want people to be able to make the most of the tools that we provide them. We don\u2019t want them to have any kind of reason to be able to go outside that tool framework and go look for those advantages perhaps elsewhere when there\u2019s uncertainty. The last thing we want our small businesses to do is to get themselves into situations that are not necessarily advantageous for them, are not necessarily what they should be doing in the best interests of their businesses, simply to avoid some interest on a long-serving process that had before that been at zero percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister was asked about this\u2014and, again, if we had had the opportunity to have a select committee process, we probably could have teased it out a bit further\u2014the Minister, who engaged very well in answering questions, which should be said, on this particular occasion didn\u2019t really provide that much information, but he did mention the perverse incentives that could therefore exist. I don\u2019t feel any more informed now that I\u2019m standing here halfway through the third reading, in so far as what he actually meant by that. I would have liked to have had that as one of the half a dozen things I have circled on my piece of paper\u2014to have been able to cross that off as something that I fully understood and was happy with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to finish off by acknowledging all the people that have taken part in this process. As many great philosophers have said over the years, not probably quite so well as Francisco Hernandez has just mentioned, this isn\u2019t the worst bill in the world. Of all the bills that this Government has introduced, it is the most benign. And, on that very profound observation, I would like to reiterate that Labour does support this bill, and therefore we commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u00225c6736b5533d48adb8c18996bb0c4ebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c6736b5533d48adb8c18996bb0c4ebb\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Business appreciates certainty; this bill provides certainty and clarity. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002293484eacccf7485496be33c1fc319348\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293484eacccf7485496be33c1fc319348\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. Camilla Belich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00227f6ff6027c914835ab6e2096e7f14376\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f6ff6027c914835ab6e2096e7f14376\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. That was an incredibly short contribution from that last speaker, Carl Bates, and I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe5577c31bbb4e4b8d226372dba42ab4\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Short, sweet, and effective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238b21c0674e842828252ed9695804672\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, was it effective? I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m not sure if people looking over the Hansard in later years will have that same reflection, Mr Bates, but I am happy to elucidate, for the benefit of those future readers, in more detail about the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThis is, as people have said, a relatively uncontroversial bill. The reason for that is there is general consensus that the procedures that ACC have been conducting in relation to interest appear to be reasonable and fair. However, that doesn\u2019t mean that there aren\u2019t important issues raised by the effect of this bill and the way that this bill is brought into law, which will be very soon because this bill comes into force the day after Royal assent. So there isn\u2019t a long period of time before this is actually the law of the land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, because of the change in Government, this is something that was looked at by the previous Labour Government and raised when\u2014originally, it went through this procedure when we were under Budget urgency. It was picked up, I think, through an audit process in\u00A0relation to questioning the authority for the charging of interest. So it\u2019s regretful that it\u2019s\u00A0taken 20 years of this practice for that to be raised and put before the House. I think we\u00A0can all agree that it\u2019s something that should have been looked at earlier on\u2014and I can\u2019t\u00A0recall exactly who was in Government 20 years ago, but that\u2019s beside the point. Governments from both sides of the House have presided over this practice, and the whole House has an interest in making sure that there is clarity moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EHowever, there are some concerns that were raised, which were briefly touched upon, I think, by the Minister for ACC in the committee stage. But because this bill does introduce retrospective legislation and does, effectively, cut off a possible legal remedy\u2014and that is very openly discussed, not only in the regulatory impact statement but, in fact, in the explanatory note of the bill\u2014there are concerns around the use of urgency for that process and the fact we didn\u2019t have a select committee process. I want to ask the Government parties to reflect on whether this was an appropriate thing to put through urgency. They may have justified at the time through the urgency motion\u2014and I can\u2019t recall if this point was specifically made\u2014that the reason for introducing this bill was, in fact, to circumvent any legal challenges by putting it through urgency and not having a select committee process, and so people who were charged interest weren\u2019t alerted to the fact that they could perhaps sue ACC for the interest that they were wrongly charged. I\u2019m not aware if that has occurred; I haven\u2019t heard that that\u2019s the case. But, obviously, because the urgency process wasn\u2019t completed, we\u2019re now in a situation where it is some weeks after the original urgency motion was put, and this hasn\u2019t been concluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s for the whole House to reflect on whether, in those particular types of instances where the Government cannot be assured that urgency is particularly necessary for a bill or that it in fact would be passed, urgency should be afforded to this type of bill. If they do consider it is necessary, then why was it not put further up the Order Paper? I mean, I think these are genuine questions for the Government. It won\u2019t affect the overall bipartisan\u2014in terms of National and Labour\u2014support for this bill and the Government parties\u2019 support for this bill, but I think it is a fair thing to reflect on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe did suggest some things to make the retrospectivity of this bill less severe. That was suggested in the committee of the whole House. It was removing some of those words that would have said that the practice was always lawful, which is a bit of a truism when you have parliamentary supremacy. If Parliament says something was always lawful, because of parliamentary supremacy, it is always lawful. Does that mean that it is a true fact, looking backwards? I question whether there could have been better wording in that part of the bill, and I did ask the Minister about that and he didn\u2019t respond. So I\u2019m disappointed about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI agree that ACC is a taonga. There has been bipartisan support for ACC moving forward, and I would hope\u2014and I ask both parties in the House\u2014that when there are issues around the function of such an important thing in ACC, it is important to try and have as bipartisan an approach as possible. So I will commend this bill to the House, but, I think, in the future, there are lessons to be learnt from this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022302145f7cd63494694e62e478bad4359\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022302145f7cd63494694e62e478bad4359\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. This bill is pretty straightforward, really. It\u2019s about common sense. It\u2019s about practical amendments that provide clarity. Therefore, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00228e0a05bcd6ce4f669f5c8ca4088fecd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e0a05bcd6ce4f669f5c8ca4088fecd5\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, it is a pleasure to take a call on the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill, and I say that because the Accident Compensation Corporation, which has been in place of course for over 50 years now and was put in place by a previous Labour Government, is one that is unique to us, it\u2019s world leading, it was revolutionary at the time and I think remains so. It, of course, provides accident insurance cover for accidental injuries to virtually everyone\u2014New Zealand citizens, residents, and even temporary visitors\u2014and I think that\u2019s what makes it incredibly special.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge the fact that work on this technical bill began under previous Ministers as well, both the Hon Peeni Henare and the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, who were also intending to rebalance the Act and, well, did rebalance the Act to an extent by extending cover to parents giving birth and by also reviewing the Accredited Employers Programme. There was a new framework that came into play sometime back\u2014from memory\u2014that would be used to review Schedule 2 of the Accident Compensation Act 2001 to look at what other occupational injuries or diseases could be covered in the future as well. Those sorts of pieces of work were truly revolutionary in terms of extending ACC and what it could achieve. This bill that we\u2019re here to debate in the House today is really just a technical fix, not quite that revolutionary, but important none the less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EJust a little bit of context as to why we\u2019re here today: the cost of the cover of injuries that I mentioned previously\u2014which is, of course, the primary benefit of ACC\u2014is funded from five accounts. Now, three of those accounts\u2014work, earners, and motor vehicle accounts\u2014are funded solely through levies that are charged to employers, to earners, and to motorists. Most businesses, I understand, or at least a large number of them, do make their levy payment in one single payment on the annual deadline that is stipulated by legislation. But I also understand that there are many businesses, largely small businesses\u2014and bearing in mind that about 97 percent of businesses in New Zealand are small to medium sized enterprise, there are some who then use the instalment plan that the ACC Act allows for as well. And therein lies a little bit of the issue and why we\u2019re here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThis bill, as I mentioned, is pretty technical. It will allow the Accident Compensation Corporation to charge debit interest when an employer or self-employed levy payer pays levies using the instalment plan, and there are a few different instalment plans that are allowed for; from memory there are three-month, six-month, and 10-monthly plans. It will\u00A0also validate ACC\u2019s past and continuing practice of charging debit interest in some cases where these levies are paid by instalment. And I will go into a little bit of that because\u00A0it was quite interesting to see in the regulatory impact statement (RIS) that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) and ACC had slightly differing views on the interpretation of the legislation, and so I will go into that a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWhat is the problem definition? What are we here to fix? Why are we here with the debate on this bill? It\u2019s basically that there are strong policy reasons; so there is quite a strong rationale for ACC to be able to collect an appropriate charge, particularly on the longer instalment plans as well, just to make sure that there is equity between levy payers. If this wasn\u2019t in place, from the reading of both the RIS and the bill, my understanding is that if the instalment plans weren\u2019t an option, then it would lead to some issues, particularly with smaller businesses perhaps being forced to take on unsecured involuntary debt\u2014whether it\u2019s through alternative finance means, bank cards, overdrafts, and so on and so forth\u2014which would then mean that they incur, typically, a higher rate of interest than they would have been charged if they had paid through the instalment plan with the debit interest component. So it is important that we are able, through the ACC Act, to allow for this as an option\u2014for instalment plans as an option for businesses, particularly smaller businesses. So as a result of this, it\u2019s more likely that businesses that are currently using that 10-month instalment plan are potentially better off financially than if they were not offered this instalment plan option and had to go down the pathway of a bank loan or an overdraft or things like that. So this is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ENow, what\u2019s the problem here? One of the issues, as I alluded to previously, was the fact that MBIE and ACC have had a slightly differing view on the interpretation of this legislation. There are two parts of the problem, as the regulatory impact statement lays out as well. So firstly, ensuring that ACC\u2019s levy collection power is, I guess, fit for purpose, and then addressing the risk that potentially, and this is where the retrospectivity of this bill comes into play\u2014ensuring that what ACC has been doing for approximately 20 years or so no longer incurs a legislative risk to the Government. So now the power for ACC to accept that payment\u2014that levy payment, particularly\u2014is provided for in the ACC Act as I mentioned, and I\u2019ll just read the bit that is related to it. It says, ACC \u201Cmay charge a reasonable fee to recover its costs of collecting any levy by instalments.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s section 234(2) of the Act. The empowering provision provides that regulations may prescribe, and I quote, \u201Cthe matters in respect of which fees or charges are payable under this Act, including any administration fee payable in respect of levies paid in instalments:\u201D\u2014that\u2019s section 333 (1)(b)(i).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EApparently, when the two sections that I\u2019ve just mentioned are read together, there is a discrepancy between the two agencies\u2019 views\u2014between MBIE and ACC. MBIE doesn\u2019t consider that the \u201Creasonable fee to recover its cost of collecting\u201D and an \u201Cadministration fee\u201D provide the basis for ACC to be able to charge the debit interest payment. So therein lies the issue here. And I do take the point that there is a legislative risk. There was a rationale provided in the RIS for this bill to go through this House under urgency. I will, however, also point to the fact, again laid out in the RIS, that putting this bill through or passing this bill through all stages under urgency has meant that there\u2019s a limited amount of time for formal advice to have been provided by the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee (LDAC). So there is an issue there. The time frames, they have said in the RIS,\u00A0\u201Cshort timeframes to support this bill being passed under urgency\u201D, has meant that there was no possibility for formal advice to be provided. However, from the reading of it, MBIE has considered the LDAC guidelines as best as they can, and provided that this legislation is necessary, it is important, and this is the most appropriate way, according to them, to be able to achieve the policy objectives of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI will also make mention of new Part 5, inserted into Schedule 1AA by clause 6, and that is the fact that nothing really changes in terms of rates for business owners, for those using the instalment plans, as a result of this bill passing\u2014which it will, given that both National and Labour are supporting it. So, currently, there is no amount of levy that\u2019s collected on the three-month or the six-month instalment plans. The 2.73 percent is only collected on the 10-month instalment plan. That will not change as a result of this bill. I am really pleased to see that it is sort of baked into legislation that ACC must consult levy payers to ensure that the rates that are finally set through regulations are ones that are fair. That is important because while ACC does need to recover some of the costs or charge the debit interest fee for the reasons that I\u2019ve outlined previously, it does need to be set at a rate that is fair\u2014one that isn\u2019t too high and one that isn\u2019t too low. And the risks of both are laid out quite well in the regulatory impact statement as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo, while consultation could not be conducted because of the fact that this bill is passing through the House under urgency, through all stages, it is a good thing that consultation will need to occur before the rates are set to ensure that the rates that are finally set are fair. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd0777d5cddb4f1381ad24aa8233f442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd0777d5cddb4f1381ad24aa8233f442\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we are a Government that believes in delivering and fixing problems, unlike the previous Government, who procrastinated. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7cbd57af0734768bda3ba36a8c38f8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7cbd57af0734768bda3ba36a8c38f8d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call Tangi Utikere\u2014this is a contested split call from earlier call No. 6, and Tangi was the first person to stand up and call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0f654a4bbf94b24a26f386a77a8b3bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0f654a4bbf94b24a26f386a77a8b3bf\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E So observant, Madam Speaker\u2014can I thank you and send a kia orana your way. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and speak in support of the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill. Listening to colleagues all around the House as this bill has progressed through the Parliament and the\u00A0suggestion that the way in which ACC conducts its business and its functionality needs\u00A0to enjoy a \u201Cby all\u201D or multipartisan level of support\u2014it\u2019s on that basis that we will be supporting it, but there are some caveats that I do want to just very briefly cover off this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI think my colleague the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan has just summarised a few key points there that relate to the key differences between, essentially, the two main Government entities or organisations, ACC and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, and the point of difference that they\u2019ve had in terms of interpreting what the current practice is\u2014not just the current practice but the practice that seems to have been adopted over a period of more than 20 years. As my colleague has indicated, there is a legislative risk from that. It\u2019s always really important, I think, for the House to spend some time seeking to address legislative risk where possible, but on this occasion it really needs to, I think, be weighed up whether, yes, there are time sensitivities in needing to progress this, but whether the use of the House\u2019s time in urgency is a good one for that. Members and people listening and watching\u2014albeit in the morning\u2014will no doubt draw their own conclusions from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge the work that my colleague the Hon Peeni Henare has done on a lot of the groundwork in bringing this legislative change to where it is at the moment. The real question, I think, is around\u2014and these words have been used in the House already\u2014what is \u201Cfair and reasonable\u201D when we\u2019re talking about an instalment plan that\u2019s been put in place for businesses, for small businesses, for entities, and where they engage in a contractual arrangement around interest rates that would be due on that. What this bill seeks to do is set anything less than six months at an interest rate of zero and then, as Dr Xu-Nan has said, that the 2.73 percent over the 10-month instalment period is what is, effectively, the current rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe fact that we are progressing this legislation through urgency means that it has not been subject to a select committee process, and I\u2019m sure we would have heard from those submitters around what it would mean for them. We would have heard from small business entities. We would have heard, perhaps, from those who have had their own experiences. The deficiency in the process, of course, at the moment, is that we haven\u2019t had that opportunity. So to my mind, what\u2019s really important is when the Minister for ACC is exercising what will be their right under regulation to set what those interest rates\u00A0for instalment plans will be, that they really do consider and actively go about consulting. I do encourage Ministers in the future to reflect on the fact that this is a piece of legislation that has moved through urgency, and I think that means that it provides a higher threshold for Ministers to ensure that when they are exercising their regulatory powers and functions, they consider the views of the community and others in reaching determinations before they do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI also think that there is a real need for a degree of incentivisation. My colleague Rachel Boyack touched on this. I absolutely think that is needed because the reality is this: when we look out as to what some of the options are for businesses and others who are finding some financial hardship, it\u2019s very easy to see a lot of the communications that are out and about, and people get locked into particular arrangements where the interest rates are actually quite exorbitant and quite high. So if this is going to be an opportunity that\u2019s offered by ACC that\u2019s at a fair and reasonable rate that is, effectively, set by regulation after adequate and appropriate consultation has been met, I do think there is a real need and a responsibility on ACC to ensure that the communication with small businesses and entities is such so that they know that this is an absolute opportunity for them and that the rates that are set and are on offer as a result of instalment plans are fair and reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo, just in summary, I think when we approach matters that concern the Accident Compensation Corporation, it is important to ensure a wide range of support by the House, but that has to be supplemented and supported by good process. We haven\u2019t had the opportunity to engage with the community, but I do hope that the Ministers in the future, in exercising these regulatory powers, consider to consult and do so actively. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223682c02689d8418ab8b34522302481d9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Accident Compensation (Interest on Instalment Plans) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000112\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7202cba637a4326a7aa4c413cda4d44\u0022\u003ECorrections Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022edad5c228bdc45a4a02822034341c24f\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00229a60d81584864ae590c88533b29d5674\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a60d81584864ae590c88533b29d5674\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister for M\u0101ori Development)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Corrections: I present a legislative statement on the Corrections Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022781c00480f4948588b96c8b2754c7993\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc78d9dd9dd94d8eb6ed987301f8e36c\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Corrections Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EFirst, I would like to start by thanking the Justice Committee for its consideration of the Corrections Amendment Bill. The Justice Committee received 72\u2014whitu tekau m\u0101 rua\u2014submissions on the bill and heard 19\u2014tekau m\u0101 iwa\u2014oral submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe bill is important as it modernises the Corrections Act 2004. It aims to improve rehabilitation, reintegration, and safety in prisons, our whare herehere. Corrections operates in a continuously changing environment and the prisoners Corrections manages are increasingly presenting complex issues. Many of these prisoners have histories of violence and antisocial behaviour. The violence and aggression in prisons poses an ongoing challenge for Corrections, including for front-line kaimahi or staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EKaimahi safety is one of my priorities, and this bill\u2019s new intelligence powers will support not only kaimahi but prisoners and the public to be safer. The new intelligence provisions directly respond to the reality of the wero, the challenges that Corrections faces every day, and is a key part of this bill. These new provisions give Corrections new and clear powers to improve prison safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThese provisions also include safeguards to ensure transparency and limits of those new powers. As an example, a tauira, Corrections\u2019 recording of prisoner phone or video calls would cover all prisoners, but to protect prisoner rights to privacy, the focus of monitoring for intelligence purposes will be on prisoners who pose a serious risk of harm to prison safety and the public. In using these powers, Corrections will be looking for prisoners who seek to introduce contraband such as drugs, tarukino, into the prison and to identify prisoners who seek to physically harm other prisoners or members of the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe bill also helps to ensure the internal disciplinary process in prisons is effective alongside strengthening processes for the authorisation and the use of non-lethal weapons. These are, again, important tools for staff or kaimahi safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ERehabilitation is one of the Government\u2019s priorities and is very important for this K\u0101wanatanga. The bill enables limited mixing of remand accused and convicted prisoners for non - offence-based programmes which will support the extension of rehabilitation to remand prisoners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes a series of other amendments that improve Corrections\u2019 ability to operate prisons, whare herehere, safely and efficiently; strengthen kaimahi safety; and support prisoner wellbeing. The Justice Committee has strengthened the bill to ensure it provides Corrections with the necessary tools to continue to maintain the safety and security of prisons. Kei te mihi ki te Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214ce758d765c4bce856e4e5208724b19\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Hard-working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247c3a69737f045669cd77761526570aa\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Hard-working. I want to be clear that Corrections will continue to do the mahi with hap\u016B and iwi to deliver culturally responsive rehabilitation to improve outcomes for M\u0101ori notwithstanding the committee agreeing to the removal of Treaty of Waitangi provisions in the bill. Corrections remains committed to working closely, doing the mahi with M\u0101ori to continue strengthening its operations to address the over-representation of M\u0101ori in the Corrections system. It\u2019s good to see the recent appointment of the M\u0101ori Deputy Chief Executive to his role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EFor example, the Te Mana Wahine Project based at Christchurch Women\u2019s Prison is designing a range of interventions with local iwi, hap\u016B, tangata whenua, and M\u0101ori providers. One of the initiatives from the project is a 10-week group session guiding w\u0101hine M\u0101ori to better understand their own identity, to identify their goals and aspirations. At Northland Region Corrections Facility, Ng\u0101ti Rangi, as mana whenua, have been integral in the ongoing design of rehabilitative practice at the whare herehere. This includes rongo\u0101, tikanga, kapa haka support to build positive wh\u0101nau relationships in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EWith regard to other changes, the chief executive tumu kaimahi power to authorise the monitoring of visits will now be unable to be delegated to a prison staff member to recognise its potential to impinge on prisoners\u2019 relationships. I know that there are concerns, raruraru and \u0101wangawanga, about the impact this monitoring could have on family relationships. But this change is important, as Corrections knows that some prisoners use these unmonitored visits as an opportunity to have a k\u014Drero about actions that could undermine the safety and good order of the prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee has also agreed that Corrections should be required to report annually on its use of intelligence powers. This is an important change that will boost transparency and accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe komiti has also removed the ability for a prisoner to request a rehearing of a disciplinary charge before a visiting justice when a hearing has proceeded in their absence. This is an important change that will ensure there is a more timely and effective disciplinary process in our prisons. I acknowledge that this may have had some impacts on natural justice, which is why Corrections officers will now be required to provide evidence that the prisoner has refused to attend the hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee has also made some changes to the process for prisoners segregated to address their risk of self-harm. This bill proposes a requirement for these prisoners to be visited daily by a health professional. While this already happens in practice, it\u2019s important that the legislation sets this as a requirement. During these visits, staff will consider whether the decision to segregate these prisoners should be reviewed and whether their at-risk assessment should be reviewed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe hard-working Justice Committee\u2014very diligent\u2014has replaced references to non-lethal weapons with less lethal weapons. This is in response to feedback from submitters and to recognise guidance released by the United Nations\u2014that austere body\u2014that all weapons used can potentially have fatal consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe definition of \u201Cprisoner calls\u201D has been updated to include video calls in addition to audio calls to better reflect the original policy intent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe bill now provides for the expanded use of body imaging searches of prisoners to further prevent introduction of contraband such as tarukino, drugs, and cellphones from entering prisons. This will ensure the legislation provides flexibility to adapt future technologies and better supports kaimahi safety. The bill also now exempts communications between prisoners and advocates acting in their statutory role under the Health and Disability Commissioner Act from being monitored for intelligence purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EI also referred an Amendment Paper to the very professional committee, which they agreed be incorporated into the bill. Thank you to the chair of that committee. This paper was one of 100-day commitments. It emphasised the importance of rehabilitation for prisoners. The bill now creates a strong expectation for Corrections to provide remand convicted prisoners access to rehabilitative programmes such as special treatment units for sexual and violent offending. Kei te mihi ki \u0113nei mahi. [I acknowledge this work.] It also has stronger requirements for Corrections to provide remand prisoners with access to non - offence-based programmes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe bill will help achieve my priorities and support Corrections to achieve its core purpose of improved prison and public safety, as well as managing sentences safely, securely, humanely, and effectively. These changes in the bill will help tautoko and support corrections officers in the important mahi that they carry out on a daily basis in prisons. These changes will also contribute to better outcomes for victims by enabling greater oversight of prisoner communications, support the hauora or wellbeing of prisoners, and ensure our prisons operate effectively and efficiently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EI want to conclude by again thanking all those who have contributed to the development of this bill, this pire. It is great to see this important mahi progressed to this stage and I look forward to us debating, having a taukumekume and a taupatupatu, on the bill in more detail during the committee of the whole House. I commend this bill to this Whare, this House. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002229ee210234d8483cb60ceb4ff77b4d3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229ee210234d8483cb60ceb4ff77b4d3a\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to say a few words on the Corrections Amendment Bill. I will be choosing my words a little bit differently from the words that the previous speaker, Tama Potaka, has chosen to provide\u2014a very vanilla and a very understated and slightly inaccurate version of the events that have come before us as we get to this stage, which is the second reading of the Corrections Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ECan I just say, as a way of providing a little bit of background, that this bill once served a mighty purpose. This bill was introduced by the previous Labour Government around the middle of last year. And this bill, ordinarily, one would say, contains several measures that serve a mighty purpose to improve and to update the Corrections Amendment Act for the benefit of both the safety of prisoners, for staff, and for modernising some of the\u00A0practices that happen in our corrections facilities. But what has happened and what has transpired through the process getting to this stage is the bill has radically changed, in so far as I can only describe it as having been gutted. It has had a very serious amendment made to it, which means that the bill is no longer recognisable in so far as its intent. It is no longer underpinned and grounded in anything that it needs to be able to do and to have the efficacy that is required, so it should come as no surprise to anybody in this House that whilst Labour introduced this bill, this is no longer a bill that we will be able to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIf we take a couple of steps back, before we start to specify directly what\u2019s so incredibly wrong with this bill now, as it stands, what it could have done was set out a series of measures\u2014it was going to, as the previous speaker so blandly acknowledged, modernise the Act by introducing some new powers, enabling the Corrections department to monitor and collect and use and disclose prisoner communications and information sources for intelligence a little bit more modernly, a little bit more robustly, because times have moved on. It was also going to make changes to the disciplinary process, as has been described, in prisons to ensure that the process is more timely, to ensure that it incentivises the conduct of good behaviour, and it was going to enable some limited mixing of remand prisoners and convicted prisoners so that they could complete rehabilitation\u2014I want to hold on to that one point for a little bit longer. We were also going to strengthen the processes for authorising the use of lethal weapons within our prison facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EBut if we go back to the point above, this is all about rehabilitation, because this is what the Corrections department should be all about. And when we think of that third point\u2014enabling the mixing of remand prisoners and convicted prisoners to complete rehabilitation programmes\u2014there have been some adjustments in this bill. But the changes made at the Justice Committee were twofold, so let me explain. It enabled Corrections to provide access to offence-based rehabilitation programmes for remand convicted prisoners as well as remand accused prisoners, as introduced. And, look, the Minister of Corrections has made an absolute song and dance about that on many occasions, touting that as being some sort of massively innovative measure that he has introduced into this bill. The reality is, he\u2019s just extended it slightly. We acknowledge that people in prisons are on remand for far too long, and, therefore, for many people, there\u2019s been no opportunity to engage in any rehabilitative process. We can see there\u2019s a need for that, hence the fact we introduced it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EBut the second change that was made through the select committee process was that Cabinet directed that Te Tiriti o Waitangi provisions, the principles that were grounded in the Treaty, be removed from the bill\u2014including the removal of the definition of \u201Ccultural activities\u201D. There was a suite of clauses that were to be there that were to be there for the explicit purpose of guiding everything else that I\u2019ve just spoken about. None of those measures are now grounded in the appropriate legislative foundation explicitly outlining and explicitly stating how we would give effect to the Treaty, because we need to for no other reason than we need to. And if we do need another reason, we only have to look at the fact that M\u0101ori are severely overrepresented in the prison system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAt some point, we have to do better. At some point, someone\u2019s got to get up, make some changes, embed things in a legislative way where this Parliament actually says to a department, \u201CHere are our expectations. We don\u2019t want you to write up a strategy document; we\u2019ve got that. We don\u2019t want you to just report back once a year or every now and again that you\u2019re on track, that you\u2019ve got this operationalised in a way that will actually make a difference. We are setting out our expectations to say this is a legislative foundation and, by hell or high water, you bloody well better make the mark work.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m livid at the fact that this has been changed, and this is an absolute kick in the guts for all the people who have contributed to informing those principles. Iwi and M\u0101ori experts throughout the country had been involved in the development of these draft Treaty provisions, as rightly so. In the Cabinet paper, Mark Mitchell had the audacity of saying that Corrections had already operationalised the programmes. And, look, they may well have, but we can\u2019t necessarily take the word of a department who at the moment are struggling to do the bare necessities correctly. They are struggling to provide the legal minimum requirements\u2014for all sorts of reasons. It\u2019s not from a lack of wanting to, but we\u2019re now asking that same department to say, \u201CHey, we\u2019ll leave it up to you about whether we actually ever start making any progress and redressing all of the things that are wrong with the imprisonment rates for M\u0101ori.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s an absolute cop out, and I\u2019m really disappointed that the Minister has done this and that we haven\u2019t, so far, been able to hear from him. It\u2019s an absolute cop out, because the coalition has explicitly shown that it would rather do a poor job of amending this bill, it would rather get it wrong and it would rather waste the opportunity of getting it right, than it would to be seen in participating in what is only an imaginary separatism agenda that they have created to form a base. I just think that that is shameful; it is a dog whistle. There is absolutely no reason to have this removed from this legislation apart from the fact that you want to go on the talking trail and after-dinner circuit and tell people that you\u2019ve done it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002214351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bda6b214ded24f39a15da0f056809f84\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t use the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e67a549a0884c0ba888ed43b749d81e\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, Madam Speaker. So that is, if we\u2019re ticking off a list of priorities, then the Government have certainly managed to tick that one off, and I think it\u2019s incredibly shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EMark Mitchell also said, and he noted that officials considered, quite rightly so, that it would likely raise concerns. Removing these provisions would likely raise concerns given the significant overrepresentation of M\u0101ori in the corrections system. Well, he certainly put paid to that, didn\u2019t he? Because he did so at the last minute. He ripped them out without any ability to go back and to consult, without any ability to reopen submissions as he had done a month prior when he wanted to extend the ability for remand accused people to have access to rehabilitation. And we were certainly able to ventilate that, to open that back up for submissions, to hear from experts, many of whom provided incredibly valuable information\u2014and I\u2019d like to take the opportunity to thank them. But when it comes to this, there was no such opportunity provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe cynic in me says, if this was part of the Government\u2019s 100-day plan, then there was no reason why this removal of these principles shouldn\u2019t have been well signalled, shouldn\u2019t have been well accounted for, and shouldn\u2019t have been included in the Amendment Paper that was taken that did afford the opportunity for some feedback. It feels a little rough that it\u00A0wasn\u2019t done that way, that it was simply done at the last minute, and there has been no means to be able to take any recourse. But here we are at the second reading and this is the only opportunity we have to ventilate those concerns\u2014and I encourage my colleagues to also do the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs I said, it\u2019s disappointing. The Corrections bill does need to be amended and it does need to be modernised. There are things within this amendment bill that are worthy and that are good, but they have all been overshadowed by this despicable move, and Labour does not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1092665a50f4654aa60babfb8b91073\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1092665a50f4654aa60babfb8b91073\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I omitted to say before the previous speaker that the question is that the motion be agreed to. So I will say now, the question is that the motion be agreed to, and call on Tamatha Paul, who was on her feet prior to me saying that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7a5fdc5fed94f9184e7ad3416db7042\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7a5fdc5fed94f9184e7ad3416db7042\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. The three things that I want to cover off and focus my attention on in regards to this bill today is, one, the process that has led us to the second reading of the Corrections Amendment Bill, and particularly focusing on the removal of Treaty provisions. The second point I want to focus on is why we need Treaty provisions in the first place, and the third point is why I think that Corrections should not feel confident or comfortable to remove these crucial provisions from within their Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk about the process first. Here\u2019s a bit of a time line for you. The bill came to us at the Justice Committee, and the purpose of the bill was, in my view, to make it easier to spy on prisoners and to monitor their communications with the outside world more closely. It outlined a process for the Minister to sign off on the use of non-lethal weapons so that we can physically harm people in prison into acting accordingly, but not so much that we kill them. Finally, it allows for prisons to mix up accused and convicted people within prisons, going completely against international conventions like the Mandela rules, which are in place to protect the rights of people in prisons, because that is the truth about human rights: you have them by virtue of being a human being, regardless of your actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWe had a whole range of people come and talk to us, and organisations, and tell us about what they felt about these changes. Some of those submitters even praised the work that Corrections had been doing in honouring Te Tiriti o Waitangi. And that was the one opportunity that the public had to share their opinions and feedback on the bill. And then, on 2\u00A0May, we were advised that the Treaty provisions would be removed from the bill, and, even worse, nobody would get to have a say on such a major decision, because the feedback was already collected. And I guarantee you: if those people and those organisations knew what was being proposed by the Government, and the removal of those Treaty provisions, then they would have made very different submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s worse is that we had advisers from the ministry come in and give evidence as to why they support the removal of Treaty provisions from Corrections. What concerns me the most is how deeply undemocratic it is that Corrections would recommend this on the basis that Cabinet told them to do it. We have an important democratic role on select committees to scrutinise the decisions of the Government on behalf of all New Zealanders. But how are we supposed to do that when the advice we receive is predicated on decisions made by Cabinet\u2014not on evidence, not on the actual performance of the department, but on the opinions and views of Cabinet, as opposed to what we know to be true, which is this: not one person within Corrections can tell me that they are not failing M\u0101ori, and, in doing so, are not failing the whole country. Corrections have no leg to stand on when it comes to giving out advice on the Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EBut why do we need Treaty provisions in the first place? It\u2019s no secret that M\u0101ori are overrepresented in the justice system, and I\u2019m getting sick of hearing it and I\u2019m getting sick of saying it. But I will repeat it for the record, because despite the fact that M\u0101ori make up just 17 percent of the population, we represent 52.8 percent of the total prison population. And for wahine M\u0101ori, that\u2019s even worse\u2014that\u2019s even higher at 57 percent of the total female prison population. And just 30 years ago, that figure was 20 percent. In the span of my lifetime, the proportion of wahine M\u0101ori in prison has increased threefold, to the point where M\u0101ori women are the most imprisoned indigenous women in the world, and that\u2019s compared to United States, Canada, and Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s clear that Corrections and our Government have accepted this shameful reality, but have not accepted any actual responsibility for intentionally bringing us to this place. Why won\u2019t they just be honest in saying they\u2019d rather lock up young M\u0101ori and waste such great human potential because they\u2019re too stingy to actually provide people with the stable home, a livable income, and actual opportunities to imagine a different life for themselves that exists outside of prison walls? What good is it for politicians and the leadership within Corrections and Justice to go on about how M\u0101ori are more heavily policed, more likely to be arrested, more likely to be convicted, more likely to get caught up in cycles of intergenerational imprisonment, if they\u2019re not willing to do anything about it, or, more accurately, if they want to make the issue worse by acting as if the overrepresentation isn\u2019t a consequence of colonisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ETracey Mckintosh and T\u0101 Kim Workman in 2017 published extensive research about M\u0101ori and Pacific people in the justice system. Prisons were introduced in New Zealand not to punish the lawless P\u0101keh\u0101 that were running around raping and pillaging villages; they were introduced as a tool to imprison the dispossessed, disenfranchised, and to torture M\u0101ori. Prisons are a tool of colonisation, and the fact that they are packed with brown people just tells you that they are a reminder that colonisation still happens today. And without Te Tiriti, there really is no reason for Corrections to reflect on their decisions or the consequences of their actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge that there is transformational, life-changing work happening between people in prisons and kaupapa M\u0101ori providers, iwi, hap\u016B, and other organisations who utilise whakapapa, reo M\u0101ori, m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori to help people to heal people\u2019s views of themselves and of the world around them and reflect on the harm that they\u2019ve caused. But prisons shouldn\u2019t be the first and only opportunity for people to engage with who they are and where they come from, and Corrections needs to do more than give us empty commitments to honour Te Tiriti; it needs to be enshrined in their governing legislation so that every person exercising powers under the Corrections Act is bound by this obligation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to make is that I genuinely don\u2019t understand how Corrections can feel comfortable or confident in honouring their responsibilities under Te Tiriti, to the extent where they think they can do away with it altogether. Corrections are not even capable of meeting people\u2019s basic human rights, let alone further commitments under Te\u00A0Tiriti. And the Ombudsman summarises it perfectly in his Kia Whaitake report. He said, \u201CAfter considering all the evidence, I consider the senior leadership of the Department is overly optimistic about the organisation\u2019s performance. This has a direct impact on the ability of the Department to undertake a true exposition on the issues that need addressing.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI think the most stark and accurate representation of the corrections system is that prisons are a storage unit, a people storage unit of containment and management. And here\u2019s some of the realities for some people in prison. They\u2019re left in isolation for 23 hours a day, and in segregation for over a year, in some cases. Proper visitation rights for families and prisoners have not resumed since the COVID-19 lockdowns. Minimum entitlement to one hour of exercise in the open air per day is not being met. There are sixteen hours between breakfast and dinner for some people in prison, and CCTV filming people going to the toilet\u00A0and undressing. And that\u2019s why 19 percent of people in prison have attempted suicide, because the experience of being in prison is so deeply degrading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ETo finish, I\u2019d like to seek leave to table a letter that I received from Stephen Robert Wilson, currently sitting in a prison in South Auckland. This document contains medical records showing that Mr Wilson was paralysed down the right side of his body and parts of the left side of his body while being transported to Ng\u0101wh\u0101 Prison from Kait\u0101ia court. He wrote to us to describe how he has to lie on his back and shower himself in prison, on the ground because the facilities aren\u2019t accessible. He has been awaiting parole and rotting in prison because it is impossible to find suitable housing that meets his needs, because Mr Wilson is in a wheelchair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f671c21985414237a6c6a01799f1ec18\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So leave is sought to table this document. Is there any objection? There is none. Thank you. Please carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232add5c8f39044b19cb57b8c38bfa4cc\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Every aspect of Mr Wilson\u2019s mana has been degraded. His dignity is stripped away every time he lies on the cold concrete floor to wash himself. It\u2019s clear through stories like Mr Wilson\u2019s, and through reports, that Corrections fails to meet basic human rights, particularly those conventions around torture and minimum standards for people in prison. We have to accept that even humans who have created harm are still entitled to basic human rights. Corrections is failing to meet these basic human rights, so the fact that they think that they can meet their obligations under Te Tiriti when they\u2019re already failing to do the basics is laughable, and this bill just reinforces the worst parts of Corrections. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f802ce42890e486fa63214700cedcdb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f802ce42890e486fa63214700cedcdb9\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak in support of the Corrections Amendment Bill. I think we\u2019ve just heard, actually, from the Greens that we actually have a different perspective, maybe, on some criminal justice matters on these different sides of the House. What this bill is actually trying to do is modernise aspects of our corrections system. We on this side, on the Government side, accept that people do need to be locked up, they do need to be incarcerated to protect members of the community, and what this bill does is attempt to modernise some of the circumstances in which they are incarcerated and what can be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EI also do want to say thanks to the members of the Justice Committee, from all of the parties. This was a bill, as I think has been outlined, that was started in the 53rd Parliament and came across to this Parliament. I do want to say that all members of the Justice Committee, regardless of what party they were from, actually did work diligently to make\u00A0improvements to this bill, and that is reflected in the report that we made back to the\u00A0House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EAgain, I think the Minister of Corrections, in introducing the second reading, did talk about some of the more significant things that this does. I do think, with the Amendment Paper, being able to offer rehabilitation to remand accused and to remand convicted prisoners is important. Let\u2019s get them on the track to some rehabilitation as soon as possible. Again, there are obviously other modernising provisions and, you know, language that was updated by the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EI do note that this bill is some 46\u00A0pages long, and then there\u2019s also the Amendment Paper. I have, obviously, heard from both speakers from the Labour Party and the Greens about their concerns around the removal of the Treaty provisions. Let me be clear: this Government, in its coalition agreements, does have a commitment to actually looking at how the Treaty is being operationalised across Government. That work is under way, and so putting in at this stage these provisions when that work is still ongoing is not appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EI think the other thing we would say from ACT is we\u2019re also looking forward to having a mature and grown-up conversation about what the Treaty means in modern New Zealand, and I do look forward to engaging with all New Zealanders and everyone in this House when we bring our Treaty principles bill forward so we can actually have some clarity about what the principles of the Treaty are, and we say that is the actual articles of the Treaty. So, again, I look forward to having that discussion\u2014it seems like some of the members already want to have it, but we will do that in due course. So, again, I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8711423aea844848295d2af1672e066\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8711423aea844848295d2af1672e066\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to voice New Zealand First\u2019s support for the Corrections Amendment Bill and the Government\u2019s intention to improve our corrections system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee that I\u2019m a member of has strengthened the bill to ensure that it provides Corrections with the necessary tools to continue to maintain the safety and security of our prisons. We received over 44 submissions and we heard from 19 of them and, as we\u2019ve heard through the debate already today, we received a number of good intentions and the committee was able to make a number of changes. On that basis, and with this going through the House, I will commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf1b8bc5c4b48e8891e7868d6dac7d7\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228c5210eb6e8f4811a7ec279773187802\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c5210eb6e8f4811a7ec279773187802\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Marama Davidson\u2014and can I say it\u2019s good to see you here, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022978865274c444811a5b58fab46dde4d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022978865274c444811a5b58fab46dde4d3\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate and will firstly acknowledge all of the love and aroha that I have received from across the House\u2014is\u00A0truly a beautiful thing. Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to speak to this,\u00A0the Corrections Amendment Bill. In actual fact, I will just pick up on some of the previous comments that I\u2019ve just been hearing this morning and want to acknowledge the expertise of my colleague Tamatha Paul in this particular space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EFirstly, around Treaty principles, and I know that this legislation concentrates a lot on the changes and around the conversation of the role of Te Tiriti; the role of recognising the\u00A0unique status of M\u0101ori as tangata whenua; m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori leadership; kaupapa M\u0101ori practices methods, especially as they pertain to corrections work and their importance. We must not only not undermine that work but actually supercharge Tiriti, mana motuhake, the role of kaupapa M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori leadership in corrections legislation, practice, and provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThere was a comment mentioned earlier about this country having a mature conversation. My goodness, where has that member been? We have been having generations\u2014generations\u2014of conversations on marae, in community, in wh\u0101nau. I\u2019m really glad that we have got generations of experience of M\u0101ori, non-M\u0101ori, tangata Tiriti working together, living together, and actually improving our taiao, improving our social justice, improving our community relationships by having exactly that: a mature conversation, not one that whips into fear and racism; not one that whips and dials into ignorance. It\u2019s actually one that upholds a vision for Aotearoa that builds us and brings us together in the very unique taonga that Te Tiriti is. So I\u2019m just putting really clearly on record that in this current bill you have got the Treaty provisions around clauses 6, 7, 8, 17, 18, and 19, particularly that relate to access to m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori as far as is practicable and that\u2019s always sounding good and we need to ensure what that actually means in practice; so that\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI also wanted to pick up\u2014oh, jeez, that clock goes fast, doesn\u2019t it?\u2014in my particular contribution on the rehabilitation methods. I will draw on my experience as a former Minister for prevention of violence and the privilege that I had of working across Corrections and ensuring that Corrections itself was improving on the pathway to improving its own practice\u2014to recognising, for example, having trauma-informed indicators of recognising the dynamics of when violence has been present in a person\u2019s background; when they are using violence, when they have used violence, what are the correct trauma-informed and rehabilitative supports? The overwhelming\u2014overwhelming\u2014evidence of kaupapa M\u0101ori practices in a way that can actually apply to prisoners of all backgrounds, to rehabilitative efforts for people in prisons from all backgrounds, from all communities, that actually ensures full accountability\u2014full accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ENow, listen, the thing about hohou te rongo [making peace between entities], the thing about true restoration and rehabilitative practice is it actually is about bringing fuller accountability and accountability that is beyond just prison bars, which often does not even begin to bring accountability\u2014real accountability\u2014to the people who have been caused harm, and that those rehabilitative efforts, especially the evidence kaupapa M\u0101ori - type practices that have been well, well praised by report after report after report, and if\u00A0this Government is going to maintain a responsibility to ensure that they are being further supported rather than the ongoing funding cuts that we have continued to see through legislation after legislation in this House through this Government already. So I am again thankful for the opportunity to put on record the Greens\u2014are we voting for this or against this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d06d71403eef4c2d8176cec846994630\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Strongly against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229985f89c751647f087fe5b084e812f30\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Strongly against\u2014strongly against\u2014because of the points that I\u2019ve just outlined, and Tamatha Paul tells me that it\u2019s because it sucks. Strongly against this bill. So thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002265830a603b8345b194c8d2e1bed801b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265830a603b8345b194c8d2e1bed801b0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable member who\u2019s just resumed her seat, I extend my very best wishes to you as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0c90394c6ae4ac6ac0099bd56044f7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0c90394c6ae4ac6ac0099bd56044f7e\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Can I just acknowledge the Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EOn behalf of the busy and effective Justice Committee, I\u2019d like to just thank all the officials and the advisers for their work on this bill. We made a number of significant and substantive changes to the bill, which I think have strengthened protections not only for corrections officers but for prisoners in prisons as well. I\u2019d like to thank the Opposition members of the Justice Committee, in particular Dr Webb and Dr McLellan, for the constructive engagement on those changes too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003ELook, the one thing I wanted to highlight was that before this bill went through the House\u2014or it goes through the House\u2014prisoners on remand would not have been entitled to rehabilitation. After this bill passes that will no longer be the case; they will be entitled to rehabilitation. The only reason that happens is because of the intervention of the Hon Mark Mitchell. That is leadership and that is why I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022051c82dec37f4779ac4163d52f64339a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022051c82dec37f4779ac4163d52f64339a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh well, what a disappointing and shameful speech from that member. This is another day, another attack on the Treaty by this Government, who continue to use M\u0101ori as a political punching bag. I\u2019m disappointed with that member. I thought he would do a bit better than that, given that he\u2019s the great brown hope, but clearly not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ECan I just start off\u2014I wanted to acknowledge the passing of Keith Locke, if I could just for a second, because he was a really terrific advocate for kaupapa right across society and kaupapa M\u0101ori too. I worked with Keith in the freezing works in the mid-1980s and we came to Parliament together in 1999\u2014about the same time Simeon Brown was born. I just want to acknowledge him and his wh\u0101nau and all of his advocacy, particularly for kaupapa M\u0101ori. And I was just saying to my whanaunga Marama over here: well done, in terms of going to his tangi. N\u014D reira e te hoa, e kore m\u0101tou e wareware t\u014D kaha ki te k\u014Dkiri i ng\u0101 kaupapa M\u0101ori. N\u014D reira e Keith, moe mai, moe mai, moe mai r\u0101. [And so, my friend, we will never forget your strength in progressing M\u0101ori initiatives. And so, Keith, rest in peace.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe are concerned about this bill. I have been listening to some of the k\u014Drero and it\u2019s a sad, sad day when Treaty provisions are removed from this type of legislation. I\u2019m particularly disappointed with those M\u0101ori members over there, because I don\u2019t understand what Treaty principles they\u2019re scared of. I was having a glance through\u2014I\u2019ve seen them a million times, as I\u2019m sure these members have, over there\u2014and I was looking at the general principles and some of the principles are: \u201CThe main purpose of the Treaty was to ensure that both parties \u2026 would live together peacefully and develop New Zealand together in partnership.\u201D Oh, Jesus, how frightening! Isn\u2019t that frightening! Wouldn\u2019t you just want to remove that from the legislation after hearing that, Madam Speaker? I mean: \u201CThe main purpose was to ensure both parties \u2026 would live together peacefully and develop New Zealand together in partnership.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENow, \u201CThe Treaty does this by assuring M\u0101ori that their interests will be protected and confirming citizen equality.\u201D Again, for those members, because I\u2019m just not sure if they\u2019ve looked at what they\u2019ve kicked out of this legislation\u2014\u201CThe Treaty signifies a partnership between M\u0101ori and the Crown, and requires the partners to act reasonably and with the utmost good faith. Partnership requires that each party have a voice in how the relationship is managed. This requires good faith and consultation with M\u0101ori groups on decisions affecting them all.\u201D Oh, Jesus, that\u2019s so frightening too, isn\u2019t it? Isn\u2019t that frightening, National? Oh, well, we\u2019d better get that out of there. We better get that out of the legislation. Also, \u201CThe Crown has a duty to actively protect M\u0101ori in the use of their lands, fisheries, forests, and other treasured possessions, both tangible and intangible, such as language, culture and sacred places.\u201D And \u201CThe Crown has a duty to remedy past breaches of the Treaty.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI do not understand the fear of the Justice Committee. I do not understand why they found that this was so necessary to kick out of legislation. I\u2019m sure Mr Meager might want to explain this to me later on. Is it because they\u2019re upsetting their mates on the other side? I just cannot work out in my mind why the chair, why the Minister, Tama Potaka, could agree with this, because I was looking at Minister Potaka and I was thinking: is there one\u2014one\u2014M\u0101ori advocate, one M\u0101ori friend of his who would support this legislation? I don\u2019t think there would be one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI was thinking about Kim Workman\u2014what a magnificent advocate he has been for our people, a magnificent advocate. Tracey McIntosh\u2014you couldn\u2019t get better with these sorts of people, all talking about how important the Treaty is. They all know Minister Potaka so well. My uncle, Moana Jackson, one of his heroes\u2014I wonder what Uncle Moana would think now. One of his best friends, Che Wilson. They\u2019re buddies, you know. I wonder if Che Wilson would support this. Jamie Tuuta\u2014I mean, he\u2019s sort of the leader of everything. The Minister would have appointed him to everything. I wonder what Jamie Tuuta would think about this. Julian Wilcox\u2014I don\u2019t think the Minister will have a friend soon because he wouldn\u2019t have one friend, one M\u0101ori advocate, who would support this rotten legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt is rotten legislation, even though they have said that they will keep supporting tikanga M\u0101ori and what not. But the Prime Minister said earlier this year, in front of M\u0101ori leadership, that he will honour the Treaty. That\u2019s what he said. Yet this Government is removing the Treaty provisions and legislation left, right, and centre. They say one thing and they do another. They have said they will not support the Treaty principles bill past a second reading, but then they do this type of nonsense. How can M\u0101ori have any faith in a Government that double talks\u2014double talks. The Minister for M\u0101ori Development over there\u2014yes, yes, we all like him. You know, can\u2019t help liking him. However, he is part of the strategy. Stand up, Tama. Stand up against your mates in National. That\u2019s what your M\u0101ori mates are saying. They\u2019re sick of this removal of legislation. Now there\u2019s an attack on the Waitangi Tribunal. So the Treaty is not being honoured and we\u2019re stripping Treaty obligations out of Corrections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThis isn\u2019t social policy. It\u2019s petty point scoring for worse outcomes. It\u2019s in coordination with what\u2019s happening with section 7AA out of Oranga Tamariki. I have to say that I just don\u2019t understand where this National Party is coming from, given the history, a proud history, and work from people like Bill English, who I caught up with over the weekend, and Anne Tolley. These are people who have\u2014well, you need to have a talk to him, because you and the kid have no idea of National Party history. You know, you had a National Party who worked in tandem with M\u0101ori, Mr Meager. You worked in tandem with the M\u0101ori Party, inserted section 7AA, but now you\u2019re removing it from legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe Government assures the iwi social services community that they want to keep their services but just don\u2019t want to be obligated to them. So how long will the assurance last? That\u2019s the key. This legislation is offensive to M\u0101ori. Mr Meager doesn\u2019t understand that. This is what people are saying. You are removing the Treaty obligations for the incarceration of indigenous people when M\u0101ori are so grotesquely overrepresented in our prisons. And you have the audacity, Mr Meager, to call that justice\u2014you, the chair of the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b8c23d2b394611bd460561dcf5d4f1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Speaker is not the chair of the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278765a0ecce940e69aa6c944824edffa\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Madam Speaker\u2014my apologies. We all seem to go down that track every now and then, in terms of\u2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae63ac22a72f41959809845d35382b6e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll get you back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5b6176461044737a77bf774944655a3\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Madam Speaker. But the point today is these Treaty obligations need to be enshrined in legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a89adb7dc3b748a3873302ac66373d70\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d075925a38b14fd091c2843bef940976\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: You see, whilst I\u2019ve heard\u2014well, well, just listen, listen. We\u2019re trying to explain it to you that it\u2019s all right to say, \u201CWell, yes, we can still do the M\u0101ori thing, we can do the mana w\u0101hine thing, we can do all that.\u201D, but if there\u2019s no commitment, if it\u2019s not entrenched, then anybody can come along and just change things. That\u2019s why Kelvin Davis did such a wonderful job in entrenching this in legislation. That\u2019s why he was an exceptional corrections Minister. No, he didn\u2019t get everything right. No one gets everything right. But we had a move in terms of rehabilitation and getting tikanga M\u0101ori entrenched into the system. So I\u2019m proud of the work that Kelvin Davis did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud of the work that the previous Labour Government has done in terms of making New Zealanders aware of their Treaty obligations. This is not about forcing the Treaty down people\u2019s throats; this is about us working in partnership, working in tandem. The other side, sadly, led by fools like Mr Meager over there and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ddf51defb52476ba7bdf8657ee875aa\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf6f3e05cc5048fdabebed8ff7449c3e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Was that going a bit far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb90e1fa45a47789bcbaa03c8ce7628\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That is unparliamentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ef4507b2d7e4b258cc2f2a4711e74f2\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Unparliamentary; I apologise for that. I know that he can take it well. But the reality is this is about bringing society along and, seriously, we need Mr Meager, we need Mr Potaka over there, we need Mr MacLeod over there, too. Also, we need these M\u0101ori to be aware of what their people are saying, which is: entrench the Treaty, support tikanga M\u0101ori, support kaupapa M\u0101ori, and show some courage instead of being gutless M\u0101oris. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00227e871da88358402296a4dd47a6d8d893\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e871da88358402296a4dd47a6d8d893\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to rise in support of the second reading of the Corrections Amendment Bill, which, of course, amends the 2004 Act, improving rehabilitation, reintegration, and safety outcomes for people in prisons, as well as enabling best practice operations for the Department of Corrections. As our hard-working and very able Justice Committee chair, James Meager, reminded us, the bill incorporates Minister Mark Mitchell\u2019s Amendment Paper to deliver rehabilitation for rehab prisoners. This Government and this bill backs our around 10,000 corrections staff, who work every day to protect the public and ensure that offenders receive the help they need to turn their lives around. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00223f30793613034879a004e814a475df5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f30793613034879a004e814a475df5b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got a split call. The first call is from the Labour Party\u2014Tangi Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002264c38dedd7f440bb952924cc04f92d33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264c38dedd7f440bb952924cc04f92d33\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Thank you. Look, I rise and speak in opposition to the Corrections Amendment Bill this morning. It\u2019s been made quite clear by previous speakers on this side of the House that when this bill was introduced, there was an intention that many components within the bill were to be supported, and, of course, the safety for staff and all personnel in prisons throughout Aotearoa New Zealand is always of paramount consideration. But the removal of provisions that relate to Te Tiriti o Waitangi is nothing short of foul. It is nothing short of foul, and alongside the definition of \u201Ccultural activities\u201D and, basically, a complete removal of that is going to be not just disproportionate but it will lead to significantly worse outcomes in prisons, particularly by not meeting the needs of those who are there. This bill, I think, had the potential to do many great things, actually. But the reality is that it is, basically, undermined by the removal of that specific provision that relates to Te Tiriti, and so it is on that basis that we will not be supportive of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EYou know, prisons are very interesting places, and many members in this House who have had opportunities to visit or to be involved will reflect on that for themselves. This bill, I note, reflects and impacts directly on the work that visiting justices do, and I do want to spend a bit of time on that because some folk who are listening may not know what visiting justices do. Well, there are around about 20 of them in New Zealand, and prior to coming to this place, I was one of them for five years, as a visiting justice undertaking discipline hearings in prisons around Aotearoa New Zealand. Usually, it\u2019d be two weeks, actually; often on a Friday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe make-up is about 50 percent lawyers and 50 percent judicial justices of the peace, and what they do is they go into prisons every single week. They hear matters that relate to allegations of charges against internal discipline, and there is a range of particular penalties that might be imposed by a visiting justice. There is also a hearing adjudicator, and this bill seeks the functions and the powers that a hearing adjudicator would have. The powers that a hearing adjudicator has are at a lower threshold than those of a visiting justice, but visiting justices can impose self-confinement time or a loss of privileges for, in some instances, up to 90 days, or three months, and they can impose a monetary penalty and the like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo the implication on those who are in prisons, whether they be prisoners or whether they be staff members, is still quite significant, and there are some changes in here that actually, in isolation, might not be that bad. They\u2019re pretty straightforward, actually. They relate to, for example, including an audio link or a visual link rather than a specific audiovisual link\u2014those sorts of things. But the reality is that the changes that are underpinned by the removal of Te Tiriti provisions mean that the operations and the way in which these powers would be exercised by visiting justices and also by hearing adjudicators is somewhat curtailed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EFor example, the suggestion that the Justice Committee has made by majority is to remove the ability for a prisoner to request a rehearing before a visiting justice when a hearing had proceeded in their absence. Now, I\u2019ve conducted many hearings in the absence of prisoners in prisons, but it would always be open to some form of response from a prisoner\u2014for example, maybe there was an administrative error, or maybe there was a miscommunication. Why should any person who is charged with any potential misconduct be subject to having their rights, basically, curtailed on the basis of having some evidence from a corrections staff member to say that they were otherwise indisposed or they\u2019d refused? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve had many hearings, actually, where charges have been dismissed because of the nature of some of the information or the processes that were involved in prisons, and I know that my colleague the Hon Willie Jackson has said that, well, we can all do things better. But, basically, throwing out a provision that empowers a significant majority of the people who are in New Zealand\u2019s prisons is not the right way to go, and that is exactly what this bill does. It seeks to curtail the provision that would have significant implications in a positive way to make real differences for everyone in prisons, not just for prisoners but for staff and the nature of the way that they go about their daily duties\u2014and they do that so admirably\u2014and also the community network that works alongside them, as well. So, on that basis, there is no other option but to oppose this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b10d00622c3c4527ab80d6706db3e85e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b10d00622c3c4527ab80d6706db3e85e\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Ka taunaki au i te pire nei. [I support this bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227cbbec1ce9824f6da243a8f00f713129\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cbbec1ce9824f6da243a8f00f713129\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Yes, a very brief contribution. Short\u2014not to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af21fa39092f4e08958f819567aa1b99\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Such a lack of respect for the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e53ff2144884ff880ef03ec77c0cc03\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: It really is disrespectful. What\u2019s happened to this bill is actually indicative of the difference between this side of the House and our approach to corrections and the justice system and that side of the House, because it was, I believe, an ex-National MP who said that prisons are a moral and fiscal failure. And I would absolutely recommend to every MP to go and visit a prison, as you\u2019re entitled to do under the Corrections Act, and to fully exercise that right, because it\u2019s not a right to be shown around a prison; it\u2019s a right to go yourself and choose what to see. So go and choose what to see in a prison. Go to the most confronting parts of those prisons\u2014the high security wards, the cells where they\u2019re being double-bunked. Go and see what those prisoners have for lunch, because it\u2019s grim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of the real challenges is that prisons, as they\u2019re currently framed, are dehumanising. They disassociate people from their family and from where they come from, and that\u2019s a challenge. We\u2019ve seen in recent days and weeks, as we\u2019ve examined the Estimates and talked to officials in the Justice Committee, how much our prisons struggle. And this bill is adding to it. We\u2019ve seen the corrections officials and Minister admit that they can\u2019t meet their minimum obligations\u2014minimum legal obligations\u2014in respect of prisoners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe last Government introduced a bill which struck a balance between the unfortunate necessities that accompany incarceration\u2014the need to have information, the need to monitor communications, the need to exercise physical restraint and so on\u2014but, at the same time, on this side of the House, we are committed to a corrections system that does what it says. That is building a corrections system over time which sees people better when they leave than when they went in. And we acknowledge that right now that doesn\u2019t exist. It\u2019s only in a few instances that we can achieve that. But we were making progress. And H\u014Dkai Rangi\u2014the Te Ara Poutama strategy; the corrections strategy\u2014outlined that. It outlined the commitments to achieve a corrections framework that gave mana to the inmates and worked particularly in reducing the recidivism rates of M\u0101ori by providing tools to them to be better people when they leave than when they went in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard today, and I won\u2019t repeat, the statistics of the significant overrepresentation of M\u0101ori in our corrections system. The Treaty of Waitangi clause in this bill was part of that. It was recognising that since the Treaty was signed, the Crown and the Government have failed. And one of the symptoms of that failure is the overrepresentation of M\u0101ori in the corrections system. And we don\u2019t buy in to the narrative that treating everyone the same is addressing that failure, because the wrongs weren\u2019t treating everyone the same, so putting them right isn\u2019t going to be achieved by treating everyone the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not like it was particularly onerous to simply recognise that there are cultural differences and an obligation to lift people up where historically they\u2019ve been trodden down. And the suggestion by the Minister and the Government that \u201CDon\u2019t worry, they\u2019ll do it anyway.\u201D just doesn\u2019t hold water, because the conduct and behaviour from the chief executive to the prison officers to the people who are in the kitchens is directed by the Minister and the Government. And this Minister and this Government is making it very clear that they don\u2019t care about M\u0101ori overrepresentation in the justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb40199ff12e44b8a034503180326cfa\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Oh my God!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fedfefc33afd46f2ac2bb3d8cc0ca07c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4c642bbd31b4970b8cc6e8afd6a86d1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, some people can moan, but then they can also point out that a hundred million dollars has been taken out of the Corrections budget. So $3.5\u00A0million of that is out of the high impact programme\u2014the very programme that was designed to identify people and programmes whose lives could be transformed by modest changes. And you can have statements like, \u201CWe\u2019re just saving $43 million by changing back-office expenditure.\u201D But you know what that back-office expenditure is? It\u2019s exactly the kinds of things that would make the Department of Corrections\u2019 conduct not only compliant with Treaty obligations, which is kind of lofty and intellectual, but, at the end of the day, recognising each inmate individually and returning them to the community in a better space than they were and more equipped to be effective citizens than they were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThat Government is building prisons. Building prisons is to justice what building cemeteries is to health\u2014it\u2019s a sign of giving up. On this side of the House, we won\u2019t give up. We will use all of the tools. Yes, there\u2019s some good things here. The idea that remand prisoners should have access to programmes which aren\u2019t offence-based but can address some of the issues which they face, which might be addiction issues or they might be education issues\u2014yes, that\u2019s good. But the idea that access to cultural programme is wrong\u2014because that\u2019s been deleted from the legislation as well. The idea that the corrections system should be an appropriate cultural fit\u2014I mean, what is so alarming and frightening with that? In the way it\u2019s framed in the proposed legislation, it\u2019s not even M\u0101ori-specific. Certainly, M\u0101ori have a particular claim to have the services delivered in a way which is appropriate to their cultural background and to be culturally connected, where appropriate, with their wh\u0101nau and with their iwis. And cultural programmes which do that have been shown to be more effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, these trials and programmes are still out there, but in the face of this kind of ministerial leadership, in the face of these kinds of budget cuts, it\u2019s extremely difficult to hear, on the other side of the House, them say, \u201CDon\u2019t worry. Corrections is still committed to adhering to the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D, because it just lies fallow in their mouths. So I go back to my original challenge, which is to go to the prisons. Go and don\u2019t just visit but look. Because when you look there and ask yourself, \u201CWhat is the purpose of our corrections system?\u201D, the purpose at the moment, from the other side, is simply to incarcerate, not to improve. So I hope that on that side of the House, they\u2019ll change their approach, change their philosophy, and start improving people\u2019s lives, rather than just hiding them away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9f730659cd84e5eae48311598ed4a2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9f730659cd84e5eae48311598ed4a2d\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E The Corrections Amendment Bill enables the Corrections Act 2004 to deal better with the challenges that Corrections faces today. It incentivises good behaviour, it strengthens processes, and it enables best-practice operations in prisons, particularly in efficiency and safety. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221316ffdc658943de9b075af181e76334\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7574e5a0ddf46499551aea811b6cc89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7574e5a0ddf46499551aea811b6cc89\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I believe Carl Bates was on his feet. Just to be clear, this is the balance of the M\u0101ori Party split call that wasn\u2019t taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00224ad718c50dd648a1885b30f14565dd6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ad718c50dd648a1885b30f14565dd6b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, he called for the call before the other speaker had even sat down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u002215e7776f963a4659944b5e6241ff4c00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215e7776f963a4659944b5e6241ff4c00\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Speaker. She didn\u2019t say \u201CPoint of order\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1879429505648f18df93a8574494c72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1879429505648f18df93a8574494c72\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No point of order required. The precedent that has been set\u2014and I did see Carl Bates get to his feet first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002263731ba0e8ff4ee7992135eeb6213ffe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263731ba0e8ff4ee7992135eeb6213ffe\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Speaker. Can I just clarify something? Is it acceptable, then, to stand up and call before the previous speaker has sat down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cd3ab80c22f4ff8b9bcef0679fcfa83\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This is the person I have called and who will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228172d57de49141468274f9c884586aa8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order was a different matter. I\u2019m asking for some guidance from the Speaker. Is it acceptable to stand and make a call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebc466b88d4846219600585562b7f6a1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca0c999378574300858c2c91a7de7e18\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is that I\u2019m asking for your guidance and a ruling on this. Is it acceptable to stand and seek a call before the previous speaker has finished their call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee4bd737df4418e8cd0a0b31be5e2b6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Seeking guidance is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f509e1045fe427b935a2d799bded111\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in that case, the point of order is, straight forwardly, that the person who is now going to speak had stood and sought a call before the previous speaker had completed his call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00221057e8b3001f47e080bf78bfee42e38c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221057e8b3001f47e080bf78bfee42e38c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: And I have called that person\u2014Carl Bates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c8e1b2b6646440e8e510b31c1aa0422\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218db70c80b6841f99062b3f965a930dd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a bit of a nonsense. I have made the call, and the member is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022675b40e1dc2249938c8024a568e63f67\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I was just trying to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c269be09e9df418dbe6c669e8168bf2b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. We are taking the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5f21fc2d4b84076a2acc8d92b872bbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5f21fc2d4b84076a2acc8d92b872bbc\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220225d1ca9b354cbc9a118071197846cc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a different matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdbd952113464ece9adeda1a25724b79\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to seek some understanding about\u2014this is a new point of order\u2014at what point a member\u2019s call is terminated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00227c7f7e9d1dc84b3e9a76720f2f7c68f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c7f7e9d1dc84b3e9a76720f2f7c68f1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I will take advice and come back to the\u00A0House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca205ce9f77d43b8aa77114187f7adb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca205ce9f77d43b8aa77114187f7adb7\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This bill will improve the rehabilitation, integration, and safety outcomes in our prisons. It provides Corrections with the necessary tools to maintain and ensure safety and security in our prisons. It provides remand prisoners with access to rehabilitation. I commend the work of the chair and the Justice Committee, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00229227e6dd56e54de0ac433b20c0bf13ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229227e6dd56e54de0ac433b20c0bf13ee\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the amendments recommended by the Justice Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022068f978f3c8144d5b8c81f6f35bc6079\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002269ca51d1e5cc4e54aec8ae68b826deac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Corrections Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000251\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bdf6ce954629431ea05174bc92a835b4\u0022\u003EEducation and Training Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002283fcca872a78450582103d9a9c6a0693\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002275393a06fa724666b73901268d31606e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275393a06fa724666b73901268d31606e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education (Partnership Schools)):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Education and Training Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d86892169e44e51af3dc07355c61147\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fb47097cb6041a98da2d9c0848e6ce4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Education and Workforce Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 5\u00A0September\u00A02024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis is a very important day for education policy in New Zealand. This Education and Training Amendment Bill focuses on three areas of policy. The first is introducing a legal framework for charter schools / kura hourua here in New Zealand. The second is to remove laws that would have put specific network planning requirements on early childhood education centres. That bureaucracy will be gone because it made no sense. And, finally, this legislation will allow the Secretary of Education to make specific rules around attendance, addressing the crisis in attendance that is bedevilling not only New Zealand\u2019s schools but our future as we currently conceive ourselves as a modern, developed country with a highly educated population who went to school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI work through each of these matters in this speech before saying I look forward to the select committee, and I thank in advance Katie Nimon, the Education and Workforce Committee chair, for the work that I know the committee will do, hearing from New Zealanders, improving the legislation if and where necessary, and reporting back so that this policy progress can continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EFirst and foremost, the framework for charter schools / kura hourua will put in place the rules for who will be responsible for the administration of charter schools, and that is by and large the authorisation board, a board of experts from different backgrounds with knowledge of communities up and down New Zealand, with knowledge of education, and with knowledge of law and business, so that we can have entities from across the political spectrum, from up and down the country, from different ethnic backgrounds, able to come forward and run schools in a way that suits the aspirations of those communities and those students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThat authorisation board which is put in place is absolutely key, and the authorisation boards will be, under this law, responsible for negotiating and striking contracts with the sponsors who run the schools. Those contracts will be quite different from the approach that has been taken to New Zealand education under successive Governments. For far too long we have overly stipulated how each dollar of funding is used for this or that. We\u2019ve forced schools to negotiate with the Ministry of Education local office\u2014often for trivial things, to wait long periods of time\u2014who have stopped them from being able to expand when even there was clear demand from the parents and the students in the community for more of the education they were offering. We\u2019re going to stop that level of stipulation and micromanagement. In this contract we\u2019re going to say, \u201CYou get the money that is owed to the students of this country.\u201D Their share of the education funding will be paid to the school in cash in full. That\u2019s quite a big concession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s another change that we\u2019re going to make in return for that freedom and flexibility to start a school or to convert a State school. We\u2019re going to say, \u201CActually, we\u2019re going to contract you for outcomes.\u201D Because the amazing thing that happens in the current State system is that a school can keep getting funded even when the students aren\u2019t attending and when they\u2019re not achieving. It\u2019s an incredible thing that this has been allowed to go on for so long, and charter schools will be the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI say to my colleagues from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori that in many respects this is tino rangatiratanga in action. This is allowing communities to take control of their destiny so long as they live up to the mana of achieving and engaging the rangatahi and the students in their rohe, in their community. And the Labour Party\u2014they don\u2019t know which way to go on this because they kind of like the idea of tino rangatiratanga, but they also like the middle class unions that back them and pay their fees, and they\u2019re not quite sure about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfb969711a134da8be73de34712d078b\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Teachers\u2014we like teachers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222da2d057461146bdb9cf38cb26301666\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Camilla Belich says, \u201COh, it\u2019s about teachers.\u201D It\u2019s not about teachers. You see, here\u2019s what this is about for teachers. The Opposition is saying that teachers are opposed to this. Actually, this is a liberation of the education profession. You see, charter schools will allow a group of teachers to run a school their way, and so long as they have the mana to achieve the results of engaging the students, having them show up and learning, we\u2019re going to stop interfering with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich should take note, because I talk to teachers and Post Primary Teachers Association members too, and New Zealand Educational Institute members and all her union backers, and do you know what they say quietly? I say, \u201CWhat if you had 10 years where you knew that the Ministry of Education and successive changes in Governments weren\u2019t going to mess with you and put new conditions on how you teach and what you teach all the time?\u201D\u00A0And they say, \u201CWhat? For 10 years?\u201D They say that would be amazing. Well, you know what? With a 10-year contract, these schools will actually be firewalled away, achieve the results, keep the children safe, keep the children learning, keep the children engaged, and you\u2019ll have the professional autonomy to do education your way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e2f4ea3ff04bd68997ebcb4828defd\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish\u2014rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231307da97e334c0681e0aa2d6251072c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a pretty popular idea with the teaching profession, and Jan Tinetti ought to get with the programme and listen to a few of the teachers that are saying that. She might be surprised at how many are saying it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis legislation also allows State schools to convert to charter status. It\u2019s not just new applicants, brand new schools; it\u2019s also\u2014and she might be surprised how many State schools are showing an interest in this\u2014to actually take on charter status and do that deal: attendance and achievement, and here\u2019s your money and here\u2019s your autonomy and here\u2019s your mana and your dignity as a profession, as an educator, to do it your way, so long as you\u2019re getting the results. That conversion process is also set out in the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAll together: charter schools are back, school autonomy is back, tino rangatiratanga in education is back, and self-determination for the children and the educators and the future of this country is back with this legislation. And the Labour Party? They\u2019re not back; they\u2019re backward. That\u2019s the big problem for the Labour Party on this issue. They\u2019re not back and they won\u2019t be back for a long time, but they\u2019re certainly backward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI would be remiss if I didn\u2019t mention a few more aspects of this legislation. It also removes the network planning provisions for early childhood education centres. This legislation was just completely nuts, because it is the Labour Party \u201Cwe know best\u201D ideology that the Ministry of Education can decide whether or not a person should be able to invest their own money in serving students, young people, and a community that wants them to be there. And how do we know the community wants them to be there? Because they send their children to the centre. If they don\u2019t, it either won\u2019t start or it will go broke. I know it\u2019s a new concept for some people on the other side, but this is how the New Zealand economy works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EInstead of the Ministry of Education micromanaging where you can open an early childhood education (ECE) centre and whether or not you can expand and how many children you can have at your ECE centre, we\u2019re actually going to leave the decision up to the people that risk their own money to start them and the parents who truly know what is best for their children, who decide to send them there because they\u2019re happy, because they\u2019re safe, and because they\u2019re learning. Those are the people who should have the power, and these are the people who will have the power. And, all together, it means people spend less time on the bureaucracy of justifying their existence and more time on the empowerment about being able to do it their way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EFinally, we are going to give powers to the Secretary of Education to make changes to the way that attendance records are required to be reported. Another amazing thing is that for far too long, as a country, we really never got to grips with who is attending school each day. So we don\u2019t know what the patterns are. We don\u2019t know why they weren\u2019t\u00A0there. We\u2019ve got regulations that are almost 100 years old if you go back to the legislation they\u2019re initially enabled under, and so we\u2019re going to require that data. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00226a5f534a64fd4c68922593bd73efa621\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a5f534a64fd4c68922593bd73efa621\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s been a long time in this House that I\u2019ve heard such a confusing rant by a Minister. In fact, six times\u2014six times\u2014the Minister mentioned the Labour Party; obviously enamoured with us on this side and the wonderful legislation that we had put in place, obviously can\u2019t wait to be over on this side again and, obviously, with terrible legislation like this that won\u2019t be that far away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022437982a628e749f8868363931391064f\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: She said my speech was confusing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e297db717a2440d8aba6957fa896f876\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I say that this was confusing because, on one hand, you\u2019ve got the Minister talking about flexibility and on the other hand you\u2019ve got him talking about tightening up in areas such as attendance; a totally confusing piece of legislation, totally contradictory to itself. I would have to say to the Minister: please go and learn what tino rangatiratanga actually means, because he obviously has no idea. I know that my colleague is going to talk about that in greater depth and greater detail later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ECharter schools represent, more than anything, an absolutely concerted effort to deregulate the public education system. They have few restrictions in place on pedagogy, curriculum, class size, discipline, and other details in their operation. We have the most devolved education system in the world. How on earth do we think that having that absolutely devolved system like that is going to improve the education system for young people who have been marginalised within the system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ECharter schools represent a slow drip towards privatisation within our schooling system. Let\u2019s go back a little way to see where charter schools came out of. They were born out of the States by a gentleman by the name of Albert Shanker, who was what is called the founding father of charter schools. He withdrew his endorsement of charter schools in 1993 and became a vociferous critic against them; totally\u2014totally\u2014absolutely appalled with the direction in which they were moving in. He watched the charter schools movement evolve as he saw new businesses jump into the education industry. In the States, charter schools have been started by social service agencies, universities, teachers, parents, philanthropists, hedge fund managers, for-profit firms, corporations, charter management organisations, and community groups. Now, we might hear people say on the other side, \u201CWell, that\u2019s not New Zealand\u201D, but hang on a moment, go and have a look at the early childhood education (ECE) sector because that is very much New Zealand and those groups are very much represented right throughout the early childhood education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EAgain, we might hear the other side say, \u201COh, but hang on a moment, that wouldn\u2019t happen within the schooling system in New Zealand.\u201D I would then cite a white paper that was written by one of the groups who was interested in opening a charter school, which said, \u201CFor widespread success there needs to be the ability for sponsors to get a return on capital, which has made the ECE model so successful in New Zealand.\u201D So we\u2019re talking about a slow drip towards privatisation that will quickly become an absolutely leaking drip. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the research that sits around whether charter schools have been successful or not, the Minister often quotes the Center for Research on Education Outcomes study. Last week in our Estimates hearings, we talked about the reliability of that study and we were able to put that one to bed completely. The Minister has been completely selective in his research. There is research that has come out of Stanford University\u2014the Minister might actually note that Stanford University is a big university\u2014that shows that 80 percent of charter schools in the study performed either the same or worse than the local public schools: 80 percent. Why on earth are we looking at introducing something to this country that has an absolutely backward impact on the number of young people in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThis is a sad day for education. This is an absolutely atrocious day. The other side should hang their heads in shame for what they are doing to the young people of this country. This is an absolute attack on quality public education. I do look forward to showing that throughout the select committee process and I do look forward to those members hanging their heads when they see the evidence of how bad charter schools are for young people in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00220e4e720df2c942e49bab2ee3700fb0b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e4e720df2c942e49bab2ee3700fb0b8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I need to insert that the question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00225beb4d9747a6416eb4e7c17e3f525a2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225beb4d9747a6416eb4e7c17e3f525a2a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This bill has three parts to it. You\u2019ve got the first part, the first bit, which is around charter schools. You\u2019ve got the second part, around the removal of the network\u2019s approval. And you\u2019ve got the third part regarding the ability for the Secretary to collect data on attendance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis is a chimera of a bill, and, like the story of the kind of Chimera and Bellerophon, this is not a beast that slays. Let\u2019s start with the charter school bit. The previous speaker, the Hon\u00A0Jan Tinetti, has already mentioned, in terms of the lack of evidence internationally\u2014we have seen that unequivocally and unbiasedly, if that\u2019s a word, charter schools as a model work. This is something that we have mentioned before, both in terms of the data from the US and also when we are looking at economisation in the UK. This is something that ruins education systems and this is something that ruins the future of a nation, the future of Aotearoa, in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think, to start with, let\u2019s just draw attention to the regulatory impact statement. As you go into the regulatory impact statement, it is riddled with, \u201CHere are the risks, these are the uncertainties, these are the limitations. Due to the lack of time that we have given, we have not been able to consult with X, Y, and Z.\u201D So this is not a serious solution to the issues that we are currently facing. Yes, we admit that there are certain elements of our education system that need to be tightened up. There are certain things and there are certain parts of our education system, yes, that have let some students and some schools down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, the funding that we are looking at here, $153 million on charter schools\u2014imagine, proportionally, what that funding would do to the public sector in order to uplift all\u2014all\u2014of tamariki, all of rangatahi, all of our students across the country, when we are looking at educational systems. So this is not a serious solution. It is simply a vanity project, something to make people look pretty when they\u2019re looking at themselves in the mirror in the morning. We cannot gamble $153 million on uncertainty, so this is something that the Green Party is unequivocally opposed to, because of the fact there is simply no evidence that suggests it works. It is not the magical bullet that we see elsewhere that is going to magically fix the education system and some of the issues and harshness that we see our students and teachers and our schools go through currently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the second head of this chimera is around the network approval process. This is what I mean. Charter schools\u2014we\u2019re looking at this privatisation, it\u2019s about community-based, in fact, you know, we\u2019re also allowing people from overseas to also invest in our education system with unclarity around financial scrutiny. But the second part of this, in terms of network approval, that was put in place for a reason, because of the way that the early childhood education (ECE) sectors have been managed. Without it, and without that level of financial sustainability, the Ministry of Education is able to do\u2014without the kind of work that is expected when we are going through the scrutiny process for setting up an ECE centre, what we\u2019ll see is that we\u2019re going to be putting more young people, more tamariki at risk. And not just the students in those ECE centres but also the teachers. This is serious, especially when we hear the Minister of Education talking about consistency, talking about what we need to do, talking about structured literacy, talking about the reduction in our numeracy and literacy\u2014that starts at the ECE level. And without any form of scrutiny, we are seeing that at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to mention, the third head of the chimera, is around attendance. And while, yes, it\u2019s a good idea to collect attendance and, yes, an attendance action plan is good, but data for the sake of collecting data is not worthwhile. What are we going to actually do with it? With that, the Green Party does oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u00224a02664e747540a388096b9a06d48f80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a02664e747540a388096b9a06d48f80\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on the bill, the Education and Training Amendment Bill. I will just remind all those watching that it is not just about charter schools. There are important administrative regulatory changes also on early childhood centres to enable rules and also daily reporting of attendance. So with that very important point, we need to tighten up regulation, offer more choice to parents, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00227bd0fd1d1ba84a38b0db1db3b3cec47b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bd0fd1d1ba84a38b0db1db3b3cec47b\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. I want to start by just congratulating the honourable Minister for this bill. This is about, again, this coalition Government keeping our promises. Charter schools, to me, are about recognising, as the Hon Duncan Webb said in the last debate, that one size does not fit all. I think there is a very logical set of criteria there, a logical set of expectations on charter schools, and I think they will make a significant improvement to our education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhen I listened to what the Opposition was talking about, it\u2019s as though our education system is working brilliantly at the moment. The reality is that we know it is not\u2014we know it is not. We have a terrible attendance rate at the moment, and you cannot teach children who are not at school. Therefore I\u2019m particularly pleased also to see the enablement of the Secretary for Education to collect really good data so that we know exactly where our students are and we can get them back to school, get them back to learning, because that\u2019s what we need to do for their future and for the future of this country. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022f38740ada8ed48308f77cadd0a48d61b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f38740ada8ed48308f77cadd0a48d61b\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish I could say it was a pleasure to take a call on this bill, but it\u2019s absolutely not a pleasure. It feels more of a duty to draw this House\u2019s attention to this absolutely blatant attack on public education which is going through this House at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand, we have a public education system. Yes, it\u2019s not perfect; but, yes, there is a lot of work that goes into making sure it\u2019s good. This bill will just take money away from the public educators that are currently doing the best job that they possibly can educate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022657274df0c3c496c8a648a01bac9b42e\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec7cdf2751c940f5a8f45f3b7e07213d\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it will, and I want to draw the House\u2019s attention in the short time I have in this first reading to some great contradictions that this Government currently has in relation to charter schools. Recently, in scrutiny week, the Minister that brought this bill to the House, the Hon David Seymour, said, and I quote, \u201CI\u2019m never comfortable with any level of Government spending that could be reduced.\u201D Well, I\u2019ll tell the Minister: there is a huge amount of money that is about to be going into charter schools with absolutely no justification and it is a waste. It will take money away from the public education system and it will mean that there is less ability to ensure that a good public education is occurring for our students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIt is completely contradictory to the measures that this Government say they\u2019re proud of, that the current education Minister, Erica Stanford, is implementing. Rules about cell phone use, rules about time spent on literacy, rules about time spent on maths\u2014none of these will apply to charter schools. So if those are good for children in New Zealand, why are they not good enough for children that end up going to charter schools? It\u2019s an absolute disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, you may say, \u201COh, actually, it\u2019s not going to be a waste of money.\u201D Well, I\u2019ll draw the House\u2019s attention to two statistics which show that charter schools end up costing New Zealanders more, in contradiction to what this Government says is its absolute priority in reducing spending. The average annual operational cost per student of all charter schools is over $18,000, almost triple the $6,000 for public schools of the same period. The National-ACT charter schools from 2014 to 2018 cost up to $48,421 per student and needed more than six times the average amount of money spent on children in State schools. Why are we not putting this money where it should go: into our State education? Why are we not backing our local schools and our local teachers? I don\u2019t have the answer for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t understand why we need charter schools. We currently have private schools, we have integrated schools, we have home schooling. There is choice available for parents. Why do we need to establish a totally separate\u2014totally separate\u2014type of school that gets public money but has absolutely no accountability for our curriculum; it has no accountability in relation to an hour of reading, writing, and maths? They can look at their cell phones for all we know. All of these things that this Government stands against. It makes absolutely no sense. It\u2019s a huge contradiction; a huge waste of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAs workplace relations and safety spokesperson from the Labour Party, I feel it\u2019s also my duty to raise some very serious concerns that we have around the way that these will be incorporated. The Minister can establish a charter school. He can also tell a State school that it can become a charter school. Now, what are the consultation requirements around this? Does this have to be with the permission of the State school? I can\u2019t see that in the legislation. That is an outstanding question that I think should be of absolute concern to every New Zealander watching this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe Minister, David Seymour\u2014who is opposed ideologically to the State\u2014as a libertarian head of a libertarian party is able to go around and make all of the public schools into charter schools. I\u2019m not clear that there has to be adequate consultation with the community to ensure that that happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWhat happens to the teachers? As workplace health and safety spokesperson, I have a duty to ask what happens to them. Well, their contracts\u2014that they worked so hard for\u2014go into the bin. This is a Minister who is opposed to unions. He has spoken in his first reading speech absolutely disrespectfully to the mandate that unions have to represent their members. He has spoken and represented their views incorrectly in this House to say that they are secretly in support of charter schools. Well, I tell you\u2014I challenge anyone in this House to look at the New Zealand Educational Institute website, the Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association website, and see their absolute opposition to charter schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beee3678540448638cc73cba2e377b9b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, unions? Unions!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec2de689610745548af6d140286010b8\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Unions represent the teachers in this country\u2014they are opposed to charter schools. So I challenge any member in this House\u2014[Interruption] I challenge any member of this House to go and read those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn relation to their working conditions, they have an absolute mandate to have an interest in this area, because what is going to happen to their terms and conditions? Their collective agreement goes into the bin. They are all under individual conditions. It means that anything that they have bargained for in terms of the way that they like to work in a particular school, all the work that their union has done to make sure that their terms and conditions reflect what they need as teachers\u2014gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u002207b8a5376d6f4c12bd7a53b60afc8381\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207b8a5376d6f4c12bd7a53b60afc8381\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Unlike the people on the other side of the House, we trust the professionals out there to do their job, and this bill will give them the opportunity and the freedom to get on and do it, right? But, ultimately, this is about the children who desperately need a great education, and charter schools will certainly help with that. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00222dd00f3f781848f6a0b6e04481e45469\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dd00f3f781848f6a0b6e04481e45469\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Wh\u0101ia te iti kahurangi; ki te t\u016Bohu koe, me he maunga teitei. [Pursue excellence; if you should bow, let it be to a lofty mountain.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWe have a right, in this country, to an equitable, free, public education. In this House, we all stand for the best achievement of our rangatahi in this country, the best outcomes, and the best opportunities to live a good life with their wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ECharter schools are an experiment. They are ideological, and they are being put forward in this country without the evidence, without the expertise that our good public education system currently has. The question here is: how do we fund it? How do we fund success? If we have issues with attendance, then fund it. If we need to raise achievement, then fund it adequately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThis Government, their track record in just six months\u2014it\u2019s contradictory to the idea that David Seymour puts forward as the Associate Minister of Education. This week, we\u2019ve seen them put forward punitive youth justice policies that will harm our rangatahi in this country and will put them in youth justice facilities and prisons. They\u2019ve put forward boot camps as the best idea that they can possibly pull out to put young people on the right pathway. They\u2019ve removed cellphones. They\u2019ve enforced one hour of reading, maths, and arithmetic in schools. They\u2019re removing the sexuality guidelines that were put in place to keep young people safe in their schools, and they\u2019ve cut funding to school lunches in a cost of living crisis. We cannot trust this Government on a charter school experiment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe Minister, in his speech, talked about tino rangatiratanga. In his view, this is his example of what tino rangatiratanga achieves. Tino rangatiratanga doesn\u2019t come from the USA. It doesn\u2019t come from the USA. It comes intrinsically from a M\u0101ori world view. It starts with our wh\u0101nau. It starts with our reo. It\u2019s the emancipation of our people, our families, and our communities to be able to self-determine their education system for themselves, to have sovereignty and decision making over their lives, to have the independence and the autonomy\u2014that is tino rangatiratanga from Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the work of all of our public schools, but I also today want to acknowledge kura kaupapa M\u0101ori\u2014people that have transformed our education system in the closest example that we have in this country to tino rangatiratanga. But I come back to the question around funding. If we want to raise achievement, particularly for M\u0101ori, in this sense, then kura kaupapa M\u0101ori is also our best example. But if we want to raise achievement for everyone in our public school system, then fund it in the same way that this Government is funding charter schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe National and ACT experiment with charter schools that ran from 2014 to 2018 cost up to $48,000 per student annually. That\u2019s more than six times the average funding spent on students in State care. I talked about how if we want to improve attendance outcomes in this country, then fund them. If we want to raise achievement of our rangatahi, then fund it. But there is inequitable investment in each of our rangatahi in what is being proposed in this House today, and that is why I say that charter schools are not a quality way forward, because they\u2019re inequitable purely by the funding investment per student in this country, and it is not acceptable that this child gets a different investment than that child.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EMy final point here today is that this is an experiment. It\u2019s not tino rangatiratanga, and we must come back to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002214a8ee25e39a413d9b7f6304eeee1650\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214a8ee25e39a413d9b7f6304eeee1650\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022965479f51877488a811c474128469cf1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022965479f51877488a811c474128469cf1\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The three objectives in the Education and Training Amendment Bill are, ultimately, driven by this coalition Government\u2019s commitment to drive improvement in our children\u2019s education and achievement, to help set them up with the skills they\u2019ll need out in the real world, to help them with the skills they\u2019ll need to have a chance to be successful. Anything that helps contribute to those objectives, such as this bill, should be supported as a priority by everyone in this House. I commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaf611d94fc24636b38834ccf7c4943c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaf611d94fc24636b38834ccf7c4943c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s priorities here could not be more wrong. Today they are using the House\u2019s urgency to pass through a bill which is deeply ideologically driven. It is not evidence based and its budgetary impact and the reasons why we are here having urgency related to the Budget documents in the first place are all out of kilter. The evidence shows here, as my colleagues have said, that this will cost New Zealanders more. It does not result in efficient spending in our education system, and I\u2019ll come back to that later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI wanted to talk a little bit about why we have a public education system in the first place, and what my colleague Camila Belich has raised here as being an attack on that public education system. Because on this side of the House we believe in an education system which everyone has access to, which we consider to be, you know, a privilege that all New Zealanders can go to their public school down the road in their local neighbourhood and get the same kind of education everywhere. That education needs to be of a high quality. And we all agree in this House that there are things that we need to improve, but that is the thing that we should all be debating: how we improve people\u2019s access to their local education and take\u00A0pride in their local schools and back their local teachers. Not this chimera of a bill which\u00A0basically puts the politics of the ACT Party ahead of all of the evidence that we know works\u00A0and that backs our local teachers to do the best they can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EPublic education can be something that we\u2019re really proud of in New Zealand. We\u2019re really lucky in this country to have basically everyone being able to go to their local school. It\u2019s something that not only brings out the best in our young people in New Zealand, but also is really important for those neighbourhoods. Local schools can be this cornerstone in our local neighbourhoods, in our cities, in our rural towns, which enable people to meet each other, to have a connection to one another, and for young people to be able to engage in a touch point for the public system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022290fb0c378ed4f4b9fbb8d46461086b7\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: This is a fantasy\u2014defending the indefensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8482f3260f24a3d81f67d719e2e4bff\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: And I hear the member David Seymour criticising that goal, but that is actually what we have in New Zealand. It\u2019s a decade\u2019s worth of a public education system which people are proud of and which we need to back more strongly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe transformative power of education is something that we can all be proud of in this country. My dad\u2019s story: he grew up on the shores of the \u014Chiwa Harbour only speaking te reo M\u0101ori, and his parents weren\u2019t in the picture. He grew up with his grandparents who didn\u2019t have any kind of contact with the European world but were able to send their grandchild to the public school, and it was something they were really proud of. He went through primary school. He started when he was nine and he got to go to high school because Peter Fraser\u2019s Government put school buses on the roads to let rural Ma\u014Dri kids go to school. That kind of interaction with the State was this family\u2019s first interaction. It was a really positive one because it transformed his life; the ability and the skills to read, to write, to be a part of that community then let him go on to teachers\u2019 college to become a teacher and then a journalist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s that transformative power of education that we want for every New Zealander. Only by investing in our public education system through things like buses to get kids to school, things that enable parents to be able to send their kids to school with no barriers like school lunches and an end to school donations, that\u2019s the kind of priority we should be making, because it\u2019s only through those measures that we allow everyone to have the same kind of access that my dad did. And when I talk about a social elevator, it is truly something, it is the only thing, really, that we have baked into our system which allows people, no matter what they are born into, no matter what conditions they grow up in, to get ahead in life. We need that public education system so that we are a thriving society which also is fair for people and allows people to get ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhen we introduce something like charter schools into the system, which is directly competing for the same funding that our public education system desperately needs, that is taking away from the kids that otherwise rely on it. That is taking away from Ma\u014Dri kids, that is taking away from those kids who would otherwise not be able to get ahead. We should see this for what it is, which is an ideology focused on giving those who already have more of a leg up in an education system because they can pay for it. We should be focusing on funding our public schools well. We should be focusing on removing the barriers to success in education, like making sure kids are fed. But this Government\u2019s priorities are backwards. They are not only taking away those things like free school lunches, which we know principals and schools are telling us improve educational outcomes, but it is further entrenching those inequities that exist in the system. That is why we should vote against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d581307e2dab48c4b5e4c9037d68f88d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d581307e2dab48c4b5e4c9037d68f88d\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Improving educational achievement in this country is critical. I\u2019m particularly interested, as a member on the Education and Workforce Committee, in when we get into the early childhood education and the removing of red tape, particularly around the network approval requirements introduced by the last Government. I\u2019m looking forward to getting into the work and getting this bill passed through the House. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022681bfd4b982641ae95011749c11cf140\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000324\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ae8bd77ce97447eca5a34712d8482110\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E Education and Training Amendment Bill be considered by the E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227c71a75915cc49b5a542d43c1d2ae576\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c71a75915cc49b5a542d43c1d2ae576\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That theducation and Workforce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000326\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Education and Workforce Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221dc27d5d3cbd4ca6a8f3c14e6f9dec32\u0022\u003EInstruction to Education and Workforce Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00222b331a86a63c421781642bb48d62d37a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b331a86a63c421781642bb48d62d37a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education (Partnership Schools)):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 5\u00A0September\u00A02024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders\u00A0193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis legislation brings into effect policies that have actually been introduced in New Zealand before. It is certainly true that there are some modifications and improvements that will mean that charter schools, as we propose them today, will be even better than the pilot of charters that was run in New Zealand from around 2012 to\u00A02017. However, that does not mean that there is an extensive need to consult on something that we effectively ran a five-year pilot of\u2014very successfully, I might add\u2014in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe network provisions are simply removing something that has had no positive effect, is openly criticised by the sector, and will return to the status quo ante that all parties appear to have been happy with for a long period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EFinally, the power of the Secretary to require attendance rules be made in schools is simply enabling the Secretary to make a rule\u2014not any particular rule\u2014and one would hope that allowing the Ministry of Education to make rules about children having to attend school and schools having to report that they\u2019ve attended would be relatively uncontroversial across most parties in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022addeed8121bf4db9815d7f09016649fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022addeed8121bf4db9815d7f09016649fa\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m somewhat perturbed to hear the Minister, the Hon David Seymour, minimising in this debate the importance of an education bill and saying that this is stuff that all sides would be really interested in and that would mean we would shorten the process because of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EIt would be very rare that an education bill would have a shortened select committee, because it is education\u2014we are talking about our kids; we are talking about our present and our future. It is really surprising to me that the Minister would take this sort of line\u00A0of\u00A0thought around the fact that because we\u2019ve had a failed experiment of charter schools in the past, it means we\u2019re not going to consult with any great detail on them. I would have thought, because it was a failed experiment, we should have had more consultation happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe Minister has sort of minimised the last two parts of the bill as well, and I want to talk about those first, as the reason why we do need to have a very good and robust select committee, including the timing of it. It really concerns me that we would shorten that time. And then I would like to come back to the charter schools and the failed experiment that we\u2019ve had, and why that consultation needs to be longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca3b9028ee8b4811bffcc424e756204d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I do warn the member that this is quite a tight debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226da74529c1f14e39bfb36e615a1cdda5\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I do know that, Mr Speaker, and thank you for reminding me of that. I am well aware of that. I\u2019m talking about why the time frame needs to be a normal time frame. So please, Mr Speaker, I\u2019m well aware, but you\u2019re very welcome to keep reminding me of that, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWith that early childhood change, the Minister said that most people would be happy about that and so there wouldn\u2019t be any need to have that conversation. That is not the feedback that I have had from the early childhood sector, and therefore there will be a lot of people who will be very interested in the network management provisions. They understand the implications of that for the early childhood sector, particularly in those low socioeconomic areas. I know there is a large number of them who want to take the time to submit on this particular part of this bill and that they see this as their opportunity to have their thoughts and\u00A0their wishes being said and heard across this House. The only time they will have is\u00A0during the select committee process, so to shorten that time is a real concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also say, for them, they would be really concerned, having heard the previous debate, that the Minister did spend a lot of time speaking about charter schools and probably thinks that people will not be submitting so much on the early childhood side of this, whereas, in fact, there are a lot of people out there who are very concerned that the early childhood provision part of this bill is kind of being rammed in with charter schools, and they see that\u00A0they\u2019ve become the poor relation to the schooling sector. They want to make their voices heard in this particular process, so to shorten that time is absolutely insulting to those people from that particular sector. I\u2019m really urging the Minister to rethink for those particular people, for whom he has the oversight as Associate Minister, with his early childhood hat on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThere is also the attendance, but I\u2019m not really going to spend much time talking about that. I think there will be people who will submit on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d2f7bdf0ae249bda36315bddd4359b7\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I can imagine the member wouldn\u2019t want to talk about attendance!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a60ead78b8a349d6a2376a1f58834afe\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I am absolutely quite happy to talk about attendance, Mr Seymour, but this is not the time to talk about this. As the Speaker has said, this is the time to be talking about the length of time we\u2019re spending at select committee. So let\u2019s have a conversation about that at another stage. And let\u2019s have a conversation about the invitation that you gave to me at select committee, which, I notice, hasn\u2019t been forthcoming since select committee last week. But I do look forward to getting that invitation anytime soon to my office, and then we can meet up to talk about attendance further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s put that aside now and go back to talk about charter schools and why it is really important to have the correct time spent on this at our select committee. The Minister talked about why he thinks we need a shorter time, around the fact that he\u2019d already piloted the charter school model back between 2014 and\u2014whatever the time was; five years he had of that failed experiment. And it was a failed experiment. So, therefore, there are a number of people who have said they want to be able to speak on this, to present on\u00A0it, to be able to speak on it. But not only that, what the Minister has failed to say in his\u00A0speech right up front, about this particular part of the debate, is that this is not the same. He is actually putting a very new part and a very big change into our education system. He is talking about current public schools having the opportunity to become charter schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ENow, that is one of the biggest changes to hit our education sector. Why would we shorten the debate? That is going to take choice away from our kids\u2014and I will say why in a moment. Why would we shorten that debate to make that specific change in our education sector? Why I say that it takes choice away from our kids is that if a school that has an enrolment zone that is a current State school chooses to become a charter school, what choice do those young people have to go anywhere else, when all of those schools around them have an enrolment zone? The Minister has taken the choice away\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a5b4254ec3d4f589d0d4763c8d55a8f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s this got to do with the report-back date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022986d2a6f52a54ab5844c306cd76108cd\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: And thank you, Mr Speaker; that\u2019s exactly why we cannot have a shortened debate on this. Our education system is far, far, far too important to narrow this down to about eight weeks of consultation. In that time, we\u2019re not talking about eight weeks of consultation; we\u2019re talking of only a few weeks\u2014or even a few days, really\u2014where written submissions come in, and then we have to hear the many oral submissions that come in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI was on the select committee in 2018 when we talked about the repealing of the charter schools legislation. I know how many people submitted to that. We\u2019re talking in the thousands, of people who submitted to that. To shorten a select committee process right now is not OK in the education sector. It is putting our young people\u2019s education at risk by taking away the true debate. But the Minister is over there, saying that that is not right. That is exactly what is right. I remember the last time the Minister submitted to the select committee on charter schools and he urged the committee to listen to what he said, and he urged the committee to pay due diligence and really think about it. He is not giving people that same due diligence by shortening this period. He is taking that away from people, and that is not OK. He has stood up before in this House about how we should have a strong democratic process, and he is now the one who is saying we will shorten it because we have run this system in the past. We have not run this system as it stands at the moment, we have not run it the way that he has set out in his bill, and we have not run it with those schools that are currently State schools becoming charter schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EOne of the final points that I would like to make is that consultation with M\u0101ori is really important in this particular instance, and I fear that shortening this process will take away from that consultation. M\u0101ori are very much who the Minister has identified, or one of the key demographics that the Minister has identified, and we have strong ways of doing our consultation and working with our consultation with M\u0101ori. I fear that the voices of M\u0101ori who don\u2019t align particularly to iwi groups will be marginalised, but I also fear that the voices of those in iwi groups will be marginalised in this particular process. Whether they come in support or whether they come against the charter schools, their voices will be marginalised in a much shorter process. I am really, really concerned that an area that we do really well, and we get told about overseas that we do really well, with our M\u0101ori-medium education, will not have the opportunity in such a short time frame to be able to give that consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EMy final point is that there are a lot of young people with learning support needs who have contacted me about this bill. They are concerned about the lottery of the roles that could occur and do occur overseas with charter schools. They want to have the time. They want to have a full and strong process throughout the select committee to consider this bill. The Minister has taken that democratic right away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002298c0b452c4af4aa2a03aa401de271225\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298c0b452c4af4aa2a03aa401de271225\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I, too, echo the previous speaker, the Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s sentiment that the shortened time frame for the select committee on such an important bill which has future implications is something that should be quite concerning for all people. When we are looking at select committee timing, we are looking at usually six months to collect the information, to do the due diligence of consultation. So we should, theoretically, not be looking at reporting back to the House on 5\u00A0September but pushing it out to December, which I understand may come with challenges on some of the Associate Minister\u2019s own goals in terms of when certain elements of this bill should be set up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would just like to speak on the rationale on why having a full select committee process and a full duration of the select committee process is really vital for this particular bill. First of all, we mentioned already that this amendment bill comes in three different and seemingly unrelated parts. In the first part we talked about it in terms of the attendance element of it. You know, there will be people who would like to consult and who would like to feed into this bill, who may need some time to fully flesh out and understand the implications, but also what additional work there would be when the Secretary for Education is given the authority to collect some of this attendance data. I think this particular element might be the smallest element of the three that we are looking at, but still, there will be people who would like to provide some feedback on this, and that may require time to generate some of the data. Now, the previous speaker, the Hon Jan Tinetti, has already talked about this in terms of the network approval element. When we get attendance, this is tied into the Associate Minister of Education\u2019s announcement of the attendance action plan, which is for schools, particularly for public and for State schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second part, when we\u2019re looking at network approval, looks at the completely different elements of our educational system, which is around early childhood education. Again, when we\u2019re looking at something like this, the network approval process has only been in place for a month and we have already read in the regulatory impact statement about the limited time. Consistently, over and over again, when we\u2019re looking at the regulatory impact statement, we see the limited time that the ministry and adviser had to consult and put something together. As a result, it is absolutely crucial that we will be given sufficient time to consult on the network element, particularly in terms of the network approval when we\u2019re looking at what the impact would be on community-based early childhood education (ECE) providers and what the impact will be on private for-profit ECE providers. What will be the impact it has in relation to the FamilyBoost that the Government has announced that gives compensation or rebate to parents? With a lot of these we are looking at multiple elements and multiple stakeholders that potentially would like to feed into this particular element of the network approval. Hence the absolutely vital element of having that full select committee process and not just simply having the report back on 5\u00A0September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re looking at having the report back on 5\u00A0September, I also just want to sort of lay out what some of that could potentially look like as well. It looks like there will be\u00A0a submission process for possibly the July period, and then there will be hearings, etc., during the August period so that we are able to report back. So, in fact, when we\u2019re looking at the process itself of a select committee, it actually doesn\u2019t give sufficient time\u00A0for people to provide that feedback and for the select committee itself to be able to hear from the relevant and broad-ranging stakeholders that is required for something like education. The impact of education is a slow burn in Aotearoa. If we don\u2019t do something well, if we\u2019re not being meticulous about it, it will have a long-term impact. So, again, this is why it is so important. The Government has already mentioned that they like the democratic process. They want to have a decentralised process, but at the same time, we\u2019re seeing that it\u2019s not giving sufficient time for the public to fully express their democratic right, as is the right of people of Aotearoa to be able to feed into something like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe third element of the bill is around charter schools, and this is probably the most crucial and the most time-consuming element of this particular bill. When we are looking at the impact it will have, first of all, if we are just looking at the conversion element that the Associate Minister has announced\u2014this is State schools converting to charter schools, which also, again, does not engage with or is apart from what he says over here in the bill. It is apart from State-integrated schools, distance schools, kura kaupapa M\u0101ori, specialist schools, and designated character schools. So when we\u2019re only looking at consultation from public schools, we\u2019re looking at feedback from agencies, we\u2019re looking at feedback from schools, and within that school we\u2019re looking at feedback from teachers, we\u2019re looking at feedback from support staff, we\u2019re looking at feedback from students, and we\u2019re looking at how schools are going to have sufficient time to consult with their communities, with their local communities. This is something that the Associate Minister has himself mentioned: this consulting is about allowing communities to have their voice back and have their level of autonomy, and consulting with the boards of the schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThat is just from the school component, which may take up a lot of time; you also have the community element. The Hon Jan Tinetti has already mentioned the kind of consultation that will be required with wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi from a M\u0101ori perspective. This is something we must acknowledge: that the current education system has let our M\u0101ori rangatahi and students down in many regards. So it is really important that we have the time to be able to engage with them, and for these hap\u016B and iwi to be able to engage and have the w\u0101nanga, have that k\u014Drero themselves, to be able to sensitively tease out exactly what they would like to feed in as part of this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAnother element of this, looking more at engaging with communities, is our rural communities, not just simply our regional communities but our rural communities, who also feel that they are being let down by the system. So it\u2019s really important that they get given sufficient time to be able to have their say as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747717578ddd4a69bd619e65dbccac87\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: I just did!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022255a00305cbb488db6f24c1609dcb3d1\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, finally, the last part of this puzzle\u2014and you know, as you can see that other members who are also incredibly passionate about rural communities may also encourage their communities to make submissions. They would also then know how long it takes for rural communities to pull something together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe last component of this is how the students are able to pull something together. We\u2019re looking at not just students but also student collectives. The student voice is incredibly important when we\u2019re looking at anything that is related to education. For far too long our system has negated or has neglected the voice of the students. So, in this case, how are we going to consult with the relevant students, in conjunction with their parents, in conjunction with their teachers, and in conjunction with their schools? This is going to be really, really important. And when we are looking at all of these, obviously we are also looking at how we are able to do these sorts of consultations potentially with students or potentially with families whose English may not be their first language. How are we going to be able to consult with those families and with those communities in a really sensitive and articulate and measured way, so that they know exactly what it means for their children and for their families? This is something that would affect every person in Aotearoa because every person in Aotearoa goes through the education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe absolutely need to have that level of scrutiny and that level of insight from across the board, from all aspects, from all facets of our community of Aotearoa when we\u2019re looking at this particular bill. So I would highly, highly encourage and endorse the delay of this reporting to the six-month select committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c833bc608e84226b4af12abbebc2215\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022546124bc23b94b2183a0d047ed84093c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022546124bc23b94b2183a0d047ed84093c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next call, just now we\u2019ve had two quite full speeches on this and provided a lot of context. From henceforth, I\u2019ll be looking for some very narrow arguments around the timing. So I am calling Arena Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00222c49095ebe0e406da1a056e19f85a34c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c49095ebe0e406da1a056e19f85a34c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Assistant Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E For a call or for a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226470a96ecfe84fd4bbd3cf08f94cab56\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014calling Arena Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3decfcb833e41489a725f71bdd1a79a\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Briefly on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6ad2b6eb8fb45069f8b35dd2fd0f76f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. Was that a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcaaba73785b4e24894949b48d57bd26\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I would like a call, though, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c068a84c7afa471188a2dd7d939d6a73\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019re seeking the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251bd1ff7cfe64f5980132e7a825c04a1\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I am seeking the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c13bac53836942dab0776aa3483d5f18\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The member called a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea7a51c558184788bb0c8686726f9fc8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so the member is\u2014point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d020552202d40fcb61e33221be56525\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I acknowledge your guidance there and that was something that I was listening for. I just want to be helpful to the House and bring your attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 115/3. I\u2019d invite you to consider the Minister\u2019s speech\u2014that\u2019s on page\u00A0115, Mr Speaker\u2014where he provided the House with some further context, as you say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe reason why members on this side of the House have been debating that context is because the Minister didn\u2019t actually provide a reason for his use of urgency. So in Speaker\u2019s ruling 115/3, it\u2019s about the Speaker not accepting a closure motion when a Minister has not provided a reason for the need for use of urgency. In that case, we are still interested in hearing from the Minister and we have a Minister here in the House who might be able to provide a reason, but we haven\u2019t heard that yet. So that is why Opposition members have spoken quite widely to the context, because we\u2019re still waiting for the Minister\u2019s use of urgency reasoning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2f600f9e39b4de3945ba1e33058fb40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2f600f9e39b4de3945ba1e33058fb40\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s why I\u2019ve allowed the debate to actually be wider than I may have otherwise. But at this stage, we also move to the repetition stage, so I just indicate now that I\u2019ll give the member a call\u2014indicating, too, that we\u2019re looking for new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfd34c6b903143f39af738a2fc8deb57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfd34c6b903143f39af738a2fc8deb57\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak to this motion. The reason I am speaking is because I want to urge the Associate Minister of Education to consider a later report-back date. That\u2019s for two reasons: one is the ability of the Education and Workforce Committee to use its financial scrutiny functions for this bill, and the second is for its consultative functions, and some assistance for the Minister, in what will be a contentious piece of this legislation. Given that it is a closer report back, one of the risks open here that the Government will be weighing out is its consultation responsibilities with M\u0101ori groups, and so I\u2019ll speak to that in the second half of this contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EFirstly, to those financial scrutiny functions, it\u2019s really important for the Education and Workforce Committee to actually have a longer extension date than would be normal, because this is pretty unique in what this legislation would empower. You\u2019ve got a use of a public asset here, which has been public before and open to the scrutiny of something like the Office of the Auditor-General and subject to those provisions which apply to the use of public funds, then moving into a system where it would not be subject to that level of scrutiny. So what\u2019s going to be really important here is for the Education and Workforce Committee to be able to not only hear from members of the public but also hear well-prepared work from the Public Service on what those new financial oversight arrangements should be, because this is the use of public funds moving to private benefit. It is almost unique in the sense that only this select committee is going to perform those functions which makes sure those governance arrangements are appropriate for what had been, sort of, a public asset in public ownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe questions that the select committee will need to consider\u2014and it will need a proper briefing from the Office of the Auditor-General on this\u2014are whether those financial oversight provisions, which have been performed by the Public Service in the past, should be performed by some other independent entity or should be performed in a way which is then publicly available, and, if so, what checks and balances there are on that. They will also need to consider who the appropriate auditor is for a situation like this, because we\u2019ve\u00A0already seen that the use of public funds by charter schools has been widely debated. That was one of the things we heard from the Minister. When the Minister provided his commentary on this motion, which he had introduced just moments ago, he said that the pilot had been successful. But you\u2019ve also heard from the Hon Jan Tinetti that the average annual operating cost per student across all charter schools was over $18,000, which was almost triple the average of the $6,600 for public schools over the same\u2014she was quoting, there, the researcher Dr Shannon Walsh. So what we see here is a select committee which will be presented with, basically, alternate facts about what the financial implications of this are and how that money has been spent in the past compared to now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe reason why I bring up the pilot and what the Minister said about that is, actually, the pilot presents the select committee with more financial information than it had in the past. It needs to scrutinise that information. That\u2019s the reason why we do pilots in the education and the health system: so that we have robust financial information in the first place, which we can then make good governance decisions about. When the Minister brings up the fact that he has a pilot here and that he alleges that it is successful, that select committee\u2019s job is then to go away and make sure, for that Minister, that he is correct about that. We need, in this House, to come back to the next reading of this bill in a way that we can be sure that, actually, the financial arrangements do have the right level of oversight and are, as the Minister said, being done in a way which has been successful in the past. That\u2019s really worthy of the House\u2019s time because this is quite a unique situation where we have public assets going into what will then be used for private benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe also have heard the New Zealand Educational Institute Te Riu Roa say that the cost is up to $48,000, for $121 per student annually, which is more than six times the average funding for students in State schools. So the reason I bring that up is, actually, I would propose to the Minister that what would be useful here is to not only instruct the select committee to spend more time but to seek that further analysis by not only the Office of the Auditor-General but also by Treasury, who are the only kind of policy shop\u00A0that we have to be able to make these kinds of decisions, so we\u2019re not using alternative facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI then turn to the issue of consultation. The motion has been made to the Education and Workforce Committee\u2014that is useful\u2014but under the new Standing Orders provisions, following the review in 2020, there are also provisions for that committee to work with other committees on particular parts of legislation and particular topics of inquiry. It would be really useful\u2014and I urge the Minister to consider this\u2014to ask for the Education and Workforce Committee to also work with the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee to consider this particular piece of consultation and to drill into the details here. If the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee is able to then consider what the Crown\u2019s duty of active protection is in working with M\u0101ori in the education sector, then that would be a useful thing to be able to report back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe duty also owed is one of consultation. As I said before, this bill opens up some new risk for the Government\u2014it\u2019s a new legal risk. If consultation isn\u2019t properly conducted with M\u0101ori interest groups, there is a risk here that it will create ongoing litigation, ongoing lack of trust, between those people and the Crown. It\u2019s something that all members of this House should be interested in because, as parliamentarians, we really are stewards of the Crown\u2019s relationship there, which is created by those principles of the Treaty and by obligations under the Treaty. So it would be useful for that Minister to consider the role of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee here, to consider the role that that bipartisan, cross-partisan committee can play in our Parliament to open up space for what is, essentially, playing out the duty of good faith owed by the Crown here to M\u0101ori who want to participate in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThose are the two points I have. I look forward to hearing from another Minister of the House about the reason why there is urgency required, and another one of my colleagues then can speak to that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2c71113058843169fea42850a8ce71e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2c71113058843169fea42850a8ce71e\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As Labour\u2019s associate spokesperson for education, in particular for M\u0101ori, I want to add my contribution to the argument, why we need to have a longer select committee process to allow for proper and actual consultation to take place with M\u0101ori. Now, I know the issue has been raised by previous members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e471c3e8e4b548b7ab113bb95f5e7313\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Repetition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd1abbd47b144b1393653de8c97e5766\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not repetition because I want to take the House to the departmental disclosure statement which says\u2014yup, it\u2019s on page\u00A012\u2014\u201CDue to time constraints, the Ministry of Education has not been able to undertake formal consultation with the public on any \u2026 proposals in the Bill.\u201D There has been absolutely no consultation on any of the proposals in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to talk to the regulatory impact statement. Let me take you to page\u00A029 of that, where it talks about the Tiriti o Waitangi analysis. At paragraph 109, it says \u201CAs a partner to Te Tiriti, the Crown has a duty to actively promote and protect Tiriti rights [and interests] and to develop education settings in a way that supports M\u0101ori-Crown relationships.\u201D This duty is recognised in section 4(1)(d) of the Act, which records one of the education system\u2019s purposes as being to establish and regulate an education system that honours Te Tirit o Waitangi and supports M\u0101ori-Crown relationships. Te Tiriti analysis supports the Crown to uphold our obligations to M\u0101ori by actively considering how a charter school model might impact M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI am arguing that we need to have an extended time frame because, as was argued in the Waitangi Tribunal for the repeal of section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act, M\u0101ori have said that it is not partnership and it is not consultation to invite M\u0101ori to participate in a select committee process. That is not the standard for consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b21d60843d8746aeb0943dc604544339\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, bearing in mind, Ms Prime, that broadening out about the actual fact of consultation versus the time for consultation are two different arguments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bf857b3b63a41e5863b1d167f77b75d\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, so I\u2019m making the point that that is not even the appropriate place for it, but we have an acknowledgment in this departmental disclosure statement that none has taken place whatsoever. So all we have is the select committee process, and I argue that is not upholding the Treaty responsibilities and obligations of the Crown when it comes to M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, if that is the only place where this can actually take place, is the time frame adequate and sufficient for that to be meaningful? I don\u2019t think it is, and I am arguing that the time frame is too short to allow for there to be any meaningful consultation and work with M\u0101ori on what is proposed in this legislation. And I implore the members on the other side of the House to go and speak to their Minister about their concerns, about their failure to uphold Te Tiriti o Waitangi. I\u2019m sure that Minister in particular will be so interested in Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIf I can guide the members and tell them to look at pages\u00A029 and 30 of the regulatory impact statement and the further table of analysis, which points out what all of those issues are, when you look at the number of considerations that the advice has, I do not believe that the time that has been allowed is sufficient to address all of the things that they have identified need to take place in consultation, need to be answered on how to improve these proposals for how to deliver for M\u0101ori in our education system. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8903ebd181647d996998ea39c59a87f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8903ebd181647d996998ea39c59a87f\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab9df43d8ed0479aada79c138ac21ae6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e54e63948bee41ef8f81aa44fe7a1d70\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 5\u00A0September\u00A02024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders\u00A0193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220341f60725a2460cafdbba0fa295c8d1\u0022\u003ESentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227aa9c48a8b534dabbf4a84ed32f6ba45\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7c9ea147fdd49cda4246aacd10fa20f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7c9ea147fdd49cda4246aacd10fa20f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f4e2e343891489f8cf66afe5d820f4d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d811f6a010fa4769aeed1968e559e35b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 1\u00A0November\u00A02024. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI present a legislative statement on the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill and I move that the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill now be read for that first time, and I had already nominated the Justice Committee\u2014and I will just reinforce that with them. This bill gives effect to the Government\u2019s coalition and manifesto commitment to bring back the three-strikes sentencing law as a key priority in our work to restore law and order. Reinstating the three-strikes law sends a clear message to offenders that there will be grave consequences for serious repeat offending. It recognises the harm to victims and communities that results from violent crime and makes clear that this will not be tolerated. Keeping offenders off the streets will contribute to this Government\u2019s commitment to ensuring there are 20,000 fewer victims of violent crime by 2029. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe main features of this bill mean that we will reinstate a three-stage sentencing regime, with increasingly tougher penalties at each stage. It will have the same overall structure and essential features as the previous regime. In general, offenders will be warned of the consequences of reoffending at their first strike, and they will be denied parole at their second strike. For a third strike, offenders will have to serve the maximum penalty without parole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThere will also be some changes to make the three-strikes regime more workable. For example, the new regime will only apply to sentences of over 24 months\u2019 imprisonment. This will ensure that the toughest sentences are reserved for the most serious offending. There will be limited judicial discretion at each stage, to guard against manifestly unjust sentences. The offence of strangulation or suffocation will also be brought into the regime to ensure consistency with other violent and sexual crimes that have a seven-year maximum penalty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe are ensuring the new three-strikes regime is not retrospective. Strikes from the previous regime will not be carried across into this new regime. This is important because we are making changes to what was in place before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThere are changes to the way strike penalties will operate. The bill provides escalating consequences for offenders who continue to commit serious offences despite the warnings. To outline in more detail what will happen at each stage of the regime: for all offences, at a first strike, the offender will be warned about the consequences of receiving another qualifying sentence, and offenders will, again, receive a warning at each stage. For offences other than murder: at a second strike, the offender will be required to serve their sentence without parole, unless this is deemed to be manifestly unjust. At a third strike, the offender will receive the maximum penalty for that offence\u2014unless it\u2019s manifestly unjust\u2014which must be served without parole, unless, again, it\u2019s manifestly unjust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EUnder the previous regime, it became clear that life imprisonment without parole would virtually never be imposed for murder offences, as such a punitive sentence, because it would be manifestly unjust. To ensure that there is an escalating penalty for such offending, we are introducing minimum periods of imprisonment for murder, as follows: at a second strike, the offender will receive a minimum non-parole period of 17\u00A0years; at a third strike, a minimum non-parole period of 20 years. These minimum periods will apply in each case, unless it would be manifestly unjust. For both murder and non-murder offences, there is a limited reduction in the sentence available for a guilty plea. This is to help reduce court delays and avoid victims having to go through unnecessary trials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe are giving guidance to the judges. The bill includes guidance for judges to help in determining whether a sentence or order would be manifestly unjust. This will ensure that the exception is applied in a way that does not undermine the regime. The bill also requires that even where the manifestly unjust exception does apply, the court must still regard the offending as worthy of a very stern response, and the bill provides that the courts should not shorten sentences to prevent offenders from qualifying for the regime, or compensate those who do qualify for the loss of their parole eligibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThere are also some other minor and technical clarifications that we\u2019re making. The bill makes a number of these clarifications to technical and procedural matters to improve the efficiency and also the workability of the legislation. For example, it clarifies which post-conviction orders the court can make. Under the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Act 2003, it makes the process for giving warnings to offenders much clearer. After the bill passes, we are providing a six-month period before the new three-strikes regime comes into force, to allow time for everyone to prepare training for those changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAdditional amendments to the Parole Act are also included. We are including these because there are some changes to the Parole Act 2002 that need to be addressed. These are needed to address some errors that were made back when the previous three-strikes regime was repealed in 2022. The Act unintentionally repealed several Parole Act provisions relating to sentences imposed for murder of life imprisonment without parole. This bill restores those provisions with retrospective effect so that there can be no doubt that this technical error will have no practical consequence. I would like to reassure the public that this bill makes clear that no one subject to a sentence of life imprisonment without parole will be able to claim parole eligibility. I\u2019m also advised that no one serving this sentence is currently eligible for parole because of the error that had been made. These changes will apply straight away, after the bill receives Royal assent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe are committed to reinstating the three-strikes regime so that there are appropriate consequences for repeat offending. With this bill, we intend to ensure there are tougher consequences for serious repeat offenders, while avoiding those unjust outcomes. This bill, I believe, strikes the right balance, and I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220ad0494477be4353b160245834a8b415\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ad0494477be4353b160245834a8b415\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House will be suspended until 2 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1.03 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d519010137144b6a9d4cfc50efe0693a\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f519516b3544901844986aa2d9ada2e\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d270ef1461d8454eb26d7a7cb603219e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d270ef1461d8454eb26d7a7cb603219e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the report of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment entitled A review of freshwater models used to support the regulation and management of water in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002222f213367eba426c85c838cd500bc896\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2438ead457e4b12a66c101ec9d1b285\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e93f17227dc4454582e4096d217bb4e4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022a20cd5a70df14ac78cccd8eae770ff4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a20cd5a70df14ac78cccd8eae770ff4d\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00226146c37804dd4aa0bced7fb678aa3546\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226146c37804dd4aa0bced7fb678aa3546\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our action to rewrite the Sentencing Act to ensure that criminals face serious sentences for serious offending. We\u2019re making a raft of changes to prioritise victims over offenders: capping discounts, new aggravating factors for retail crime, and a new requirement that victims\u2019 interests must be taken into account when sentencing. After years of lawlessness, this Government is putting its foot down and saying \u201CEnough.\u201D We said we would restore law and order, and today\u2019s announcement is part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d900efaee52847fcad8bb975781d7d7c\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the statement of the Minister responsible for RMA Reform, \u201CWe\u2019re open to constructive changes on the fast-track regime to ameliorate some of the concerns that people have\u201D, and, if so, what changes will he make to address the concerns of over 20,000 people who marched on 8\u00A0June because they believe this bill is a threat to Aotearoa\u2019s environment and democracy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7a532a4c8bb4bf9ba13082aceef920c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I agree with the Minister who has quite generously said that he would go through the select committee process and if there\u2019s sensible changes, he would be happy to make them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd22d11c8fff47b6913d4a50d0a6713e\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What constructive changes will he make to address the concerns of Ng\u0101i Tahu that the infrastructure deficit should be corrected, but \u201Cit should not be used as an excuse to subvert Treaty settlements or environmental safeguards. \u2026 We cannot sacrifice the long-term sustainability of our natural resources for short-term economic gains.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b87b278668a946d18e9fb251f0aa7f23\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister, as I said before\u2014I don\u2019t know how to express it any other way\u2014if there\u2019s any sensible or constructive changes, he\u2019s very happy to take that on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a10ca9d4ac64b80a309779cec2649cb\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What constructive changes will he make to address the concerns of the Ombudsman that unless the \u201Cbeefing up of executive power \u2026 [is] matched by oversight and accountability, \u2026 I think democracy itself is the loser.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc9f2d70e7e84afd92fe9f8b518c3cea\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I don\u2019t know how to explain it to the member, but it is before the committee, and as a result we are going through a process, and if there\u2019s sensible changes to be made, they will be made. But what I\u2019d just say is that we are determined to get things built in this country. And we are not apologising for fast-track legislation, because we need modern, reliable infrastructure. We need to double the amount of renewable energy in this country so we can deliver on our climate change goals. And I\u2019d just encourage the Green Party, if you believe in climate change, you\u2019d support our fast-track provisions. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225de7a1b31dac4eeebd4b0dbd7f10f88e\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8c9475389a44c50bffbfb4ac44cafea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait\u2014OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6c24a9a86544384ab3c26d295c18940\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What constructive changes will he make to address the concerns of the Lake Horowhenua Trust, who say that the bill \u201Cplaces excessive powers in the hands of Ministers and unjustifiably removes public participation\u201D, given Christopher Luxon\u2019s description of centralisation as \u201Ca robbery of power and control from local communities\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275eec4b7e8fe444385c7d1c82b67ae3e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the bill is before the select committee. Sensible changes will be considered. But we are going to build things in this country. We need to get things done. We need to speed up our resource consenting; we need to be able to open up more financing and funding tools; and we need to be able to build things for New Zealanders so they get the economic, social, and environmental benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022952ab06a6eac4d7293e9fc4ecf66a453\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Can he outline how the Cabinet Manual policies for managing real or perceived conflicts, which he mentioned in this House on 28\u00A0May, have been engaged in relation to the fast-track bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e792d33d7f94b8d911b9cfaac81e88f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: All Ministers are aware of the Cabinet Manual and conflicts are managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd1aa581d77e4bec8ef3eb2e2e47262c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister, will he heed the Green Party\u2019s response to the Hon David Parker\u2019s insightful legislation, setting 17 precedents for fast track; or is it a case that when that happened, from the Greens there wasn\u2019t a mutter, not a murmur, not a syllable, not a sound?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a993005d97844b2a60d71bf0938c873\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d just say we have taken a very good piece of legislation from David Parker. We have expanded and built upon it. We are determined to make sure we get things built and we do encourage the Green Party to support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297c309dccb47407fac14a66281f4cf44\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, surely that question should have been stopped. The Prime Minister is absolutely not responsible for the Green Party\u2019s position on something David Parker said or has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222081d70ac86f405eac3d0c67890f8477\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, but he\u2019s responsible for his own views. And if the member likes to check the Hansard, he\u2019ll find that\u2019s what was asked for. Question No. 2\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a54a6badbe0d4ed68a35194b0ab3fd37\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd593ea9bc043dc9ee856ab09395739\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in the name of Ryan Hamilton. Oh, sorry. My apologies, Mr Hamilton, we are still going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022957d9b23d1974ec8a7fb797d8d8ce54c\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: To the Prime Minister, does he know that the purpose section of the COVID legislation that he just referred to is significantly different to the purpose of his fast-track legislation, which does not mention the environment or sustainable management?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c85a4834ab4842f2b1ba4061ef41e51b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just say, when we see a good idea, we try and build upon it and improve it, and that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228691daaec5554fec81f44b612d9d438b\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I think that was a very specific and useful question as to whether the Prime Minister knows if the purpose section is different. He didn\u2019t actually directly answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb36d9c97d7040e8b2af9e520a794bfa\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I agree they are different pieces of legislation, but the principle of actually fast-tracking so we can get things done and built is a good idea. And we\u2019ve taken that as an idea. We\u2019re building upon it so we get a one-stop fast-track solution in place so we can get things done, including doubling renewable energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022776e50854608479b8fdd5043b812304e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House appreciates the Prime Minister\u2019s eagerness to answer questions, but just wait till you\u2019re called would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002220f2de46f07f47f8b6870462f0c82964\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e260a0473c454260ae7b7df8e8c24a12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e260a0473c454260ae7b7df8e8c24a12\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What was the final operating allowance in Budget 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022539a893d9b6e49d2ad30c69a518ac8fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022539a893d9b6e49d2ad30c69a518ac8fa\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the operating allowance is the amount of new operating funding allocated to new policy initiatives in each Budget\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a94d3f875949d196027e0b63a9f85f\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: And 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d76844faa8b468683815da87fd85113\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it\u2019s good to see Willow-Jean Prime is so interested in this\u2014calculated on average per year across the forecast period. I said in the Budget Policy Statement in March that the final operating allowance for Budget 2024 would be less than $3.5 billion, which was the allowance set by the previous Government. The final allowance in this year\u2019s Budget is, in fact, $3.2 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235bdb1406084445d949d83c00970b828\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What does the operating allowance include?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a1d78989f6548f4a40749cc643ee278\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Allowances are a net concept. They include savings initiatives as well as new spending and revenue increases as well as tax relief. So Budget 2024 contains $9.1 billion of spending and tax relief on average per year across the forecast period, and that includes significant investments in health, in education, in law and order. But it also contains $5.9 billion worth of savings and revenue raising initiatives. So to help members with the maths: $9.1 billion of spending minus $5.9 billion of savings equals $3.2 billion, which is how we could fit all the Budget 2024 initiatives, including those investments in key public services, into a $3.2 billion operating allowance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5830516adc042ffade8de7dcc41af27\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good. Brevity is a good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f07d50fd3e86435aae53be589a726529\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: How does the $3.2 billion operating allowance in Budget 2024 compare to allowances in previous Budgets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b5d95c3c14b48a5bc95c7f5d82dd25e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the operating allowance in Budget 2024 is the lowest allowance in nominal terms since Budget 2018. So, taking into account inflation, which is quite important given rampant inflation in previous years, this is the lowest allowance since Steven Joyce\u2019s Budget in 2017. So to give members something to compare with: the final operating allowances for the last two Labour Budgets were $5.9 billion in 2022 and $4.8 billion in 2023. This is a very fiscally responsible Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6f395f0841240dabcb2a646160b72a6\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What operating allowances has the Government set for future Budgets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e69f9c5023394a77ba3361a3d96e9073\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has set the operating allowances for Budgets 2025, 2026, and 2027 at $2.4 billion per Budget. They are considerably lower than the allowances presented in the half-year update, which was set by the previous Government. Managing within future allowances of $2.4 billion will be very challenging. Savings and reprioritisation will be a feature of future Budgets, just as they were in Budget 2024 and just as New Zealanders expect from us. They will be a business-as-usual activity for this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226220058918804a5f9ee9b8d1f4ba94f3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e985cd06ff3541b39a326b81173d7383\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e985cd06ff3541b39a326b81173d7383\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002226438cd92b3f4fb0ac3e06324a529e14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226438cd92b3f4fb0ac3e06324a529e14\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and in the context that they were given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d06191dfc33946e39044e561bf498a59\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What support is the Government providing to local authorities in Gisborne and the Hawke\u2019s Bay, following today\u2019s extreme weather events? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d80358539f94ed1853e8f2741892f49\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I want to thank the member for his question. Minister Mitchell is actually down in the region. I\u2019ve spoken to both mayors in Gisborne and also Wairoa, and immediately we\u2019ve made available $100,000 to each of the mayoral relief funds. Obviously, the Minister will have an assessment on the ground today, and we stand by to do more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8eda36fe7d44ce3bbb596232ef5a2ac\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government be taking into account the recommendations made by Sir Jerry Mataparae in his report into the last North Island weather events last year in the way that it responds to the situation unfolding on the East Coast at the moment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cc126dc3daa4c7faeb0df4b4d8d40b4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. There have been two reports around our response to emergency events, and it\u2019s important that both of those reports are digested, taken on board, and put into standard operating procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c632d08113047598f6fbbae11cc597e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government increased the capability and capacity in civil defence emergency management across New Zealand, as recommended in the report, and, if not, when does the Government expect to make decisions on that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203d5ecb5f94d491cb75e9bb0a22401b1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t give the member a specific answer. I\u2019m happy to give more detail around that. What I can say is that we have put $1 billion extra into the Budget this year to support the communities after the events of last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6722f34a98d4c0f8a1d8ddddf68ee1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Have the policy settings criteria and process for the funding that\u2019s distributed in response to the costs associated with crises like this been updated, as the report recommended? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe8bc5816d743749c71ffb964b142c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I can say is that we have $7.5 billion of unallocated multi-year capital allowance that\u2019s been put to one side\u2014or it is there, and it\u2019s available to be used in infrastructure in the region on an as-needed basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bedadcc5a3884fe98a4c1c3410843703\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government be making allowance in its support package for the region for those homes and businesses who are still recovering from Cyclone Gabrielle\u2014which was less than 18 months ago\u2014recognising that for many of those homes and businesses, they haven\u2019t yet completed that recovery process? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246e07da95ed748ac97f518066206bf89\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I can say to the member that each week, I have been asking for a scorecard on all of the areas that have been affected by the North Island weather events to see what progress is being made around category 3 property assessments: people moving from category 2 to category 3, or back out of that. We\u2019d need to see the assessment from the Minister, and we stand by, ready to help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ec7c34fad1c47d9a9352e4a546e0782\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u002270fddf7801f642898b4046689d4ff57f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270fddf7801f642898b4046689d4ff57f\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Justice: How will the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill ensure consequences for repeat serious violent and sexual offenders while delivering justice for victims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022de5bc793cef04c4d846bf79aba578595\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de5bc793cef04c4d846bf79aba578595\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill was introduced to Parliament and earlier today I delivered the bill\u2019s first reading speech. I\u2019ve heard from many people that repeat serious sexual and violent offenders avoided the consequences of their actions under the old three-strikes regime. This Government is determined to hold offenders accountable for their actions. The sentencing principles included in the new three-strikes regime will require the judiciary to impose stricter sentences for repeat offenders and guides the judiciary to not take the implications of a strike into account when determining the length of a sentence. Under this Government, offenders will face the consequences of their actions and victims will receive the justice that they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225498154901154a61ad669784eac72c61\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: What consequences will offenders face under the new and improved three-strikes regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c806f72286142d5baa02c8ac0b15452\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: The Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill will ensure that offenders who do the crime will do the time. Upon receiving a sentence for a first strike, offenders will be warned of the consequences of further strikes. Second-strike offenders will be denied parole at their second strike, and offenders who receive their third strike will receive the maximum penalty for their sentence without parole. After six long years of a soft on crime approach, the victims of repeat violent and sexual offenders deserve justice, and this Government is going to make sure that they get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248ec9913a66d42c0aafc0db835e89da7\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill ensure that offenders convicted for murder receive appropriate sentences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d0a802bf6e4972a279f561337974ef\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: The bill ensures that individuals convicted of a murder on their second strike receive a sentence of life imprisonment with a minimum period of imprisonment of at least 17 years. If the offender pleads guilty, they will receive a minimum sentence of 15 years to incentivise the timely delivery of justice and expedite court proceedings. For offenders convicted of murder on their third strike, the bill mandates a sentence of life imprisonment with a minimum period of imprisonment of 20 years. If they plead guilty, they will serve at least 18 years. Serious offenders deserve serious punishment. This Government will not be turning a blind eye.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022654c78eb0bc4424d8c732af7aca0520a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Is this three-strikes initiative value for money, given that it will cost up to $10 million per year and the advice is that there will be no impact on community safety, the number of victims, trust in the justice system, or reduced recidivism, and her own officials said in respect of the last three-strikes regime that there was no consistent pattern to changing crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223357800dd28844158269924a4a937c20\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Will this be value for money at a price of a maximum of $10\u00A0million at a 10-year period when we start locking up those very serious repeat violent offenders? To the victims in our community, absolutely it\u2019s value for money. For the people that are trying to run businesses and have retail crime on them, absolutely it\u2019s going to be just for them. It\u2019s not that we can put a monetary price on it; it\u2019s that we put a value on victims in our communities, their safety, and their security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f50ac6504d1b4218888cb60736e89016\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Has she considered the opposite approach of setting a target to\u00A0reduce the prison population, saving money, letting the criminals out, and seeing victimisation rates go up 30 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224029d7d0cd164044837364203f813a2a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: The last six years with the target of reducing the prison population has not been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b3cd91d43f24f65859e12a69625bdd5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Tell you what\u2014hang on. Start answering again without the reference to the past six years. The question was, had the member considered it? That doesn\u2019t need a history lesson. Answer the question as it\u2019s asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e50795c2912c4b789a66dd72bc5e3f04\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: We want to make sure that for our victims of crime, those that are in the community, they see penalties, sentences, and very serious violent offenders being locked up and taken out of their communities so they are not re-victimising victims over and over again, and I think the value of that is a just one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b9b7bf013d4da6bd5f7977216c5ad9\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: Will offenders receive discounted sentences to compensate for any loss of parole, as occurred under the previous three-strikes regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f07b78cc15a54da1ae1c0b2b8b40a459\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly not. The new bill clearly states that courts should not reduce sentences to avoid giving an offender a strike or to compensate for loss of parole eligibility if they do get a strike. This Government will not be wrapping repeat serious violent and sexual offenders in cotton wool. If they are willing to repeatedly make victims of innocent New Zealanders, then they will do the time in prison for it under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022efdbe1dea0a94108a1866770bc093eae\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Regional Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022514b5456ada345f09a193220a5ab88b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022514b5456ada345f09a193220a5ab88b2\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Regional Development: What announcements has he made about investing in regional economic growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00220abfeed398304a618578d459e74ecbdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220abfeed398304a618578d459e74ecbdc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Regional Development):\u003C/span\u003E Recently, I attended an event near the Hauraki Gulf. Sadly, I was greeting by a small group of protesters, who I soon dismissed as speckled eco-squawkers. After that, the leader of the New Zealand First Party\u2014the Deputy Prime Minister\u2014and I announced the K\u014Dp\u016B Marine Precinct, which is going to expand and improve investment in the servicing of marine craft and broader maritime industries. An 80-metre wharf is the main feature, along with a floating pontoon. Aquaculture is a priority for this part of New Zealand, and that is why we are looking forward to the timely passing of the fast-track aquaculture consents bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac14c1091f640c0b46e607589f97b13\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the K\u014Dp\u016B Marine Precinct critical for driving economic growth in the Coromandel region?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225239b549e51447d2b4b44d1ce3bec381\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Economic growth in a number of our regions has faltered over the last three years. Our circumstances in regional New Zealand, in many respects, are dire, not only because of inflationary pressure but because of large degrees of red tape, regulatory dead-weight effects. For those reasons, we are continuing to support not only aquaculture\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ed2e14e45c402cb8d78a66a532ee94\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: A long way to say, \u201CNew Zealand First\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251dd4d278fb74cc59065103cf710bb0c\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Enough from the psychedelic crowd over there. Not only will\u00A0the Regional Infrastructure Fund improve opportunities in regional New Zealand, which will be announced in the very near future in July; it will also ensure that infrastructure, where appropriate, is modernised and renewed for the inevitable growth of the mining sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227da6dafc721f4337a3aa53b7268ddbc8\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell us why infrastructure is so important for regional New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022876cfbbe08474fefa09b400f422eca4b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: That question requires a very judicious reply; I shall give my best shot at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc8189b68ee4a4e8e5ba6f98fc083c6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does that mean brief?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a008070bedaf4ac5919042afd9359dd8\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Within the audience, within the community groups that gathered with us, were the leaders of the Ng\u0101ti Maru tribe, including the elder Harry Mikaere, who has assumed the mantle of an earlier group of rangatira, not the least of which was Mr Shu Tukukino. They said this: without infrastructure, without clear direction, without a robust quality of regional leadership that goes over the top of the catastrophising, demonising effects of climate alarmists, we will never have growth in regional New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f779d033fa94ef9aed8b05e22c9a54e\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: What other announcements is he planning on investment in regional infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292eea244558744fa86f50dc5324c875f\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It should be evident to those who have paid great attention to the recent Budget decisions: up to $100 million has been made available to various flood resilience projects. That will be rolled out. It is a response to the list of projects served up by the regional council leadership of New Zealand. They are wending their way through the approvals process, because we want to make sure that such announcements get the balance right between what the Crown can pay for exclusively and what costs can be shared with regional communities. We understand that this is a classic, practical response to the concerns associated with volatile weather, which is why climate adaptations time has well and truly arrived, and I will deliver it with appropriate professionalism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd1189ebcec24c2c9227c8a09aaaccca\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002264517d88f5664f6d84203d09375f1a25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264517d88f5664f6d84203d09375f1a25\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by her statement that her Budget will have \u201Cless verbiage, fewer pretty pictures, and a lot more substance\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f266b71af7514eb4a113f4481cbc1b8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f266b71af7514eb4a113f4481cbc1b8d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. When I said that, I was particularly thinking of this document called Wellbeing Budget 2023, which has a pretty picture on the front, a forward from the Prime Minister, a forward from the Minister of Finance, a highlights page, a chapter on spending\u2014called \u201Cinvestments\u201D\u2014a chapter on wellbeing outlook and approach, all interspersed by multiple pretty pictures. I can assure members that none of this verbiage or pretty pictures are in Budget 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7aa32e56f0d4949be6948c7150f0858\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Does her Budget contain less verbiage because she cannot explain how the additional $12 billion in borrowing is not for her tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1a9796c5f454d159f49a6afe2b9bbfe\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d698e8537a04650b0baac840ea23008\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: How does her Budget contain \u201Ca lot more substance\u201D when her own chief economist could not point to any specific evidence that her Budget improves productivity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b65ba1567f9e4ea9b0323164fa145841\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The substance in our Budget that I would highlight for that member is the more than 240 savings initiatives, summarised in the summary of initiatives, wiping out low-value spending from the previous lot so that New Zealanders can keep more of their own money and we can make investments in things like schools, hospitals, and cancer drugs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f864f13619c43ca9145cbb1f269b828\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Is one of the \u201Cfewer pretty pictures\u201D international credit rating agency Fitch being unimpressed with New Zealand\u2019s worse than expected economic and Budget performance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f80659d88b0450996ef1ca452921bf9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: One of the pretty pictures that isn\u2019t there is this cracker from 2019\u2014remember that one? That was the one with the couple who left New Zealand soon after being featured on the front page of her Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da08b74903184f5a9dd4bebe63904472\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Is one of the \u201Cfewer pretty pictures\u201D our climate outlook, as the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research today said there has been a clear prioritisation of tax relief at the cost of climate outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f600c58e383145e4930a6298f0120649\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The point of my statement has clearly completely escaped that member, which is this: we actually had six years of a Government that stamped \u201Cwellbeing\u201D on every document that they could, who used hundreds and thousands of words to describe how pure and good their intentions were, but failed to deliver, and that is the point. That is what New Zealanders will judge this Government on. It\u2019s what they judged your Government on, and it\u2019s why you got voted out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd0a9a7e9ff94f83b7c6106766cc15cb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I think my point of order\u2019s clear\u2014that whilst it was a political exchange, there was no place for a lecture on the previous Government\u2019s achievements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022082c47be377d4dd38d8a7f745185e7c9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: With all due respect, when a question contains a word like \u201Cexcessive verbiage\u201D, what would you expect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277b3d4c6dd204892ba1d520b808a04fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228abac4e6caf402d920cd868f2360d3f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m sorry; I\u2019m saying your point does not stand. It\u2019s a reasonable exchange that is going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d9ce9805fb6476d9f056ac81d723e1b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Those were not the Opposition\u2019s words; they were the Government\u2019s words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b4f7a36a81e47c19b2716dd6fa221d7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, but they were in the Opposition\u2019s question today. Supplementary question, the Hon Dr Megan Woods\u2014and we\u2019ll have quiet while the question is asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271ae4876fee7487bb603e16c17a1fbbd\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Is one of her \u201Cfewer pretty pictures\u201D the fact that her operating allowance for next year is $2.4 billion but cost pressures will be at least $2.5 billion, which can only mean even deeper cuts to the public services are still to come?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022418fe3ad2d6f4c7eb4e948ea26fa7b97\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: But wait there\u2019s more. We have the pictures of New Zealand from above\u2014that didn\u2019t make any difference to New Zealand\u2019s inflation rate or productivity. We\u2019ve got the picture apparently Grant Robertson spent his time taking\u2014that didn\u2019t make any difference to waiting lists in the hospitals. We\u2019ve got this pretty picture of a beautiful lake in New Zealand, and that didn\u2019t lift educational achievement. Our Government is focused on results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4bc7d1a61c44ec7808aa60b0cc6a0eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, although my supplementary did contain a quote from my primary, which was a direct quote from the Minister, I asked a very clear question about the operating allowances for next Budget. While the Minister showed us some interesting images from Budgets gone by, she did not address the issue of the operating allowance for next year\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc51ab3330d245b88ec4c4be2aea9f79\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t agree with that, because the question was about the $100 million gap between the allowance and the projected expense pressures. The member pointed that out in her question. The answer came that pretty pictures don\u2019t make a difference when it comes to Government expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022814ff157b0dc47338335ff225deaa43e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister of Finance as to whether or not those pretty pictures contained one of the Marsden Point refinery, which Megan Woods requested be closed down, much to the shock of the ownership of Marsden Point, not known until now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5bc5ddf9b2b4f9b8332517de90f3710\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9e0e83f8c5749b59ec6bee0667de9d2\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dc71f03d091429fb3cc7fb5dac18eb2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a24babf7dcae4452aa2d74879140e3e3\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9ef46be2ed2454aada2b3cc04b21647\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019ve got to hear the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d776b70a1baf4f6e9b3ad6feae38b394\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: She did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6adf349334b4c2ca14e9c9402f89310\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, did she? Well, there was so much noise, I couldn\u2019t hear it. Please answer again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d506f230e8a4161b0b5e403dd697990\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc505d5a4962455787dc332228839973\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, good. OK. That\u2019s clear. The Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2014oh, sorry; the Hon Chris Bishop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022764b409afbb84133984deb92739441e6\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not right on that, either!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f5ec0aa647b4371a9a93efbcd6f3caa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you know, you want to watch that mirror-image stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aafe9cc591fc4005be05f03aade9fa4b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Was one of the pretty pictures referenced by the Hon Megan Woods in her original question a picture of the fantastical Auckland light rail project of which the previous Government published many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1ea4b1ff13f4b95a0b6d2bba7c71b4b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, but I have it on good authority that that was from the same file which had the picture of Wellington light rail that was also contained in the same file\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dafddb6ef444322b849f45b986c5ee7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s OK\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a7596633534fcf92f34abd26617270\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which had the picture of the Waitemat\u0101 crossing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224dfe0a9d37642e7a9c7664688f2b86e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All good. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022595d1b22c36c41f0927590e6ae18ae3e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and other such fantasy projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b50514fd268f4382be4c9cba115b0213\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e48fe0640fe499f85221e9218a075c0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022482ad2ad0d0b423ab7cb5774a25f86a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022482ad2ad0d0b423ab7cb5774a25f86a4\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What recent announcements has the Government made about law and order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002259ccad332d304768b6d2425b722d3dad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259ccad332d304768b6d2425b722d3dad\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Today I\u2019ve announced a suite of sentencing reforms as part of the Government\u2019s commitment to restoring law and order and real consequences for crime. We are capping sentence discounts at 40 percent, limiting concurrent sentencing, preventing repeat discounts for youth and remorse, and creating a sliding scale of guilty plea discounts. We\u2019re acknowledging the vulnerability of sole-charge workers like dairy owners by making it an aggravating factor in sentencing, and reforming the overall principles of the Sentencing Act to provide confidence to victims that their needs will be taken into account. Victims are the priority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66eb88446264b6eb60088b6d096e0d6\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: How will these changes affect sentencing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222507abcdb1a44650993ed460b9d61e50\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: In recent years, we\u2019ve seen the courts imposing fewer and shorter prison sentences despite the increasing seriousness of cases coming before the courts. A recent sample of sentences showed 18 percent of cases received a total discount greater than 40 percent; some as high as 69 percent. Large discounts tell victims that we are more concerned about the offenders than ensuring that they see justice. The suite of changes we\u2019ve announced today will prevent discounts by capping discounts at 40 percent to ensure that the punishment fits the crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229405a0034faa499ebb31771310877baf\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Why do we need to do this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227787f1bdc9774cdb9faa958fae4b5495\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, everyone needs to know that there are real consequences for crime. In recent years those consequences have diminished. For example, we\u2019ve seen the imprisonment rate for robbery offences with a maximum penalty of 14 years decrease from 74 percent to 58 percent. We campaigned on restoring real consequences for crime, and that is what we\u2019re going to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c0e8235b48f47a69bba77bec1f6a0e8\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: How will this announcement align with the coalition\u2019s priorities for law and order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a812e43558484fecb4a800863971da54\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is a Government that is prioritising reducing the number of serious victims of crime and also reducing the number of serious repeat youth offenders. Part of that fits into a process of giving the police the extra powers they need to deal with gangs, having 500 extra police, restoring three strikes, and having the young serious offender category included, that Minister Chhour announced last week. Overall the goal is to restore law and order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022217d0142e5c54ff5bcb88ccaa905ba28\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7aa783981b543049d5509ba7dc6cdfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7aa783981b543049d5509ba7dc6cdfd\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad3c05d6ef934c2391c83acb09028e9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad3c05d6ef934c2391c83acb09028e9f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278f7287c954c434fae8c66c6a9dedf04\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that amending the Residential Tenancies Act to allow no-cause evictions will increase housing insecurity and lead to more wh\u0101nau being unable to put down roots in their communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223276943bf20b4e6ab1f785063bdc20d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We want to increase the supply of rental properties so we put downward pressure on rents. Part of that has been restoring interest deductibility, making sure we are backing off the brightline test, and, importantly, getting the balance right between tenants and landlords.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d86de15c6774a1b827ebc746cb45b43\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware of the findings of the Growing Up in New Zealand study that found a quarter of children who had experienced involuntary moves went on to experience homelessness, and, if so, why is this Government changing the law so that landlords can kick out tenants without any reason at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e176dd28a345fb91909a9424032e51\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, our Government wants to make sure that vulnerable people get a chance to get a house. That\u2019s why we are expanding supply of houses being built, rental houses, and also social housing. We\u2019re very committed to solving and fixing the housing crisis the previous administration left behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2fd03915b7a448cb2106c4475eafedc\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that the same study found 7 percent of young people in the cohort\u2014that\u2019s one or two kids in each classroom\u2014has experienced homelessness by age 12, and, if so, why isn\u2019t he concerned that his decision to cut funding for homelessness prevention will exacerbate this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a3c7c0514da4fffb6b27c8a39a69fb4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s important is that we rebuild this economy so that we can actually make people wealthier and more prosperous. That\u2019s what we\u2019re working incredibly hard to do. We want to lower the cost of living. That means actually getting on top of Government spending, lowering inflation, lowering interest rates, growing the economy, and keeping people in work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271f979e6e83746369b380fc44180c871\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to M\u0101hera Maihi, who runs a charitable trust providing transitional housing for youth, who said in relation to these Budget cuts, \u201CWhat is there for those young people? They\u2019ve taken away $20 million intended for them and they\u2019ve put it back into mainstream. That\u2019s not fair, that\u2019s not equitable and that doesn\u2019t solve the problem.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de4b6db36c154fb5854bf1645eac0838\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We announced that there would be 1,500 extra social housing places for community housing providers. We are determined to get our economy working again so that people can actually do well when they work hard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022accf397ee5704cbbaa78017771dfbfd0\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Off the couch\u2014off the couch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cccf46c7193245aaa6c34b305083e89c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t have a couch\u2014that\u2019s the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bf71840c2bd40a2aa32fa8779e8a16c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022467a00756113473eb64ed745d9fc2e39\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Go see M\u0101hera, Shane.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e26b8cb3b1d242fb8ad3246ed621e76d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough\u2014it\u2019s quite enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206c79ce8f0dc45e4b9e420f7711f93fc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014State Owned Enterprises\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8f97a38259644aaa8d69093920aacb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8f97a38259644aaa8d69093920aacb5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for State Owned Enterprises: Does he stand by his answers to oral question No. 10 yesterday that the KiwiRail iReX contract with Hyundai has been \u201Crepudiated and ongoing discussions are continuing around the exit cost of that\u201D; if so, was that repudiation a unilateral decision by KiwiRail or agreed by all parties?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00226e693bd8ac69426e8909b846f8734dff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e693bd8ac69426e8909b846f8734dff\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for State Owned Enterprises):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by my answer in full, which included the quote, \u201CThe ferries will not be coming because we are not going to spend $3 billion on an overall project.\u201D In response to the second part of the member\u2019s question, repudiation of a contract occurs when one party to a contract is unwilling or unable to fulfil its obligation to another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f8ea102665244f1910a4d7fdb233ca9\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Is KiwiRail currently undertaking a disputes resolution or arbitration process with Hyundai regarding their ship building contract?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292420c23b5a5487482db5277192a72cc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there are ongoing conversations, and it\u2019s not in the interests of the company or the Government to outline the details of that. But, yes, there are ongoing discussions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1c6436a2dd147a08f6069d679ad8548\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a cap on KiwiRail\u2019s exposure in this dispute; if not, what is the exposure of KiwiRail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fa9df1c64c043bcbf5fed5e844534c8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not going to go into the details of that, but I can remind the member that the Government, when it came in, had a choice between two bad outcomes. One outcome was to risk paying for breaking the contract\u2014for KiwiRail breaking the contract. The other risk was going ahead with a project that had got to $3\u00A0billion and rising. And so neither of those were very good options, but we had to go with one and we didn\u2019t want to spend $3 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221079bc477ab45348a7aec04f3d9d584\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: In the interest of transparency, could the Minister advise as to which Government was in power when the iReX contract was signed, and is it also the case that of the contract, when it comes to the ferries, they only totalled less than 25\u00A0percent of the contract and the rest was for infrastructure that Labour had signed up to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240ec77d6e98e4d4bbe59a9668733b933\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can advise the House that the Labour Government was in power, and that the initial estimate of the cost of the project for two ferries was $700\u00A0million, and it has crested $3 billion and was continuing to rise. And the primary driver of that cost was not the cost of the ferries; it was the cost of the fact that the ferries were bigger than the current ferries and rail-enabled, and it required an enormous amount of very expensive work at the ports at both ends. And that\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to avoid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c07b16e66e844399f567cd6fc11e180\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Was Cabinet advised prior to announcing the cancellation of the contract with Hyundai that there is no exit provision for KiwiRail in the contract?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245682ac532574212ae9f6473df87265a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to go into the details of ongoing discussions, but Cabinet had a simple decision as to whether it was going to continue to fund the project to the tune of, all over, $3 billion, and we declined to make that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1cdc3266b0943b4a75dcb08ad6fa2fb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister as to whether or not he\u2019s aware or not that his predecessor never saw the contract that he signed up to being raised now in terms of the provision of an exit clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022634efa0b44144c50aae1556e223c502b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can\u2019t tell the House what the previous Minister did or didn\u2019t see. But what I can tell\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f10263f63840d79746887a0a7a98a1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on. Hold on. I doubt that you\u2019d be in a position, Minister, to say whether or not another Minister had seen something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2d69fb1fca4828a1002378f6f6530a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but he could.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226474b01f16fe41cd9c49601bf26f3a9e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that might be the case, but he can\u2019t. So maybe ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252c26ea761ea4ff68baeda5b96a4ee63\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister as to whether or not he has been informed by Mr Hipkins as to that iReX contract, as to whether Mr Hipkins and his party over there saw the contract in the first place and (b) looked at the opt-out clause being in it or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022761dc06a912e47b7a4d731bb7b41fca2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I haven\u2019t been informed of such by Mr Hipkins, but I am shocked that they allowed a project like this to get to the extent that it might be costing $3 billion or excess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245905ae1be624af29a77176657a92df6\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Has Cabinet been advised that costs for exiting the contract could exceed $200 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab97ddd5d86d4ee499b5992bff89689f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, those discussions are ongoing, but Cabinet has been advised there may well be costs in exiting the contract. And, like I say, Cabinet was forced to choose between two bad outcomes: exiting a contract or continuing on with\u00A0a ridiculously expensive project, and we had to make a decision and we did make a\u00A0decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228665e7d6c974957b41afb439372eac3\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What advice, if any, has the Government received regarding the reputational risk to New Zealand and KiwiRail of exiting the contract, particularly if the Government had been warned that due to reputational damage of breaking the contract, it may not be able to procure new ships for decades and it could also impact other Government ship procurements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e476c02d0f6464ab6b238479233e0e4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the advice is it\u2019s never desirable to be breaking contracts, but it\u2019s also not desirable to spend $3 billion on two ferries. And so we have to be careful with the way that we spend our money. This is why this is a Government that\u2019s inherited a Budget which is in a state of disrepair that we\u2019re trying to put back together again by making some sensible decisions about spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022161ff341f0d2417289ab6e2035d875ed\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u002271a3115dc9ba46629d2ee6ee3d8f66b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271a3115dc9ba46629d2ee6ee3d8f66b0\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What recent changes, if any, has the Government made to contribute to the target to have 50,000 fewer people on the jobseeker benefit by 2030?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff9d9cb90bab44beb51615d93f2bfd82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff9d9cb90bab44beb51615d93f2bfd82\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E On Monday, I announced the launch of the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s (MSD) new work check-in seminars that job seekers who don\u2019t have case managers will need to attend after six months of receiving their benefit, to assess how their job search is going. The point of these seminars is to provide greater support to a larger number of job seekers by ensuring they have more regular contact with MSD. This initiative builds on the new K\u014Drero Mahi - Let\u2019s Talk Work seminars that job seekers now attend within two weeks of their benefit starting, to plan their next steps for finding work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235b3f3a080ae4f70bb169eb5e9a5f6c1\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: How many job seekers are in regular contact with MSD now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a951563715fa49af9653ad2d09dc9377\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: About 190,000 people currently receive the jobseeker support benefit, but only 53,000 have employment case managers assigned to them at any given time. The other 137,000 can go months without talking to MSD about their job search, with some not having to check back in until they reapply for their benefit after 12 months. Increasing the amount of contact these job seekers have with MSD is important to ensure they are taking the right steps to find work and are receiving the right support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdc14ee46d214a9ba5091e60eda75ac6\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What kind of support will these work check-ins provide to job seekers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022300b2756d60947738e4a94f7b8137685\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: If a job seeker is ready to work, they could be helped to apply for a job straight away. If they need retraining or upskilling, they could be referred to a programme that can help, like getting a driver\u2019s licence. MSD will also make sure their job profiles and CVs are up to date, offer interview tips, and talk through what other support they may need to find work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2758ef3426741fd831ba29f31a01e88\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it important for job seekers to have regular contact with MSD?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf9f9f8d6c42490db045074bd7f3d989\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The longer someone spends on welfare the harder it is for them to get back into the workforce, so it\u2019s important they stay active in their search for employment. Our Government is concerned about long-term benefit dependency and the number of people who have spent more than a year on jobseeker support, which grew by about 40,000 over the last six years. That\u2019s why we\u2019re making our welfare system much more proactive about checking in on job seekers, to help them get back on their feet quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222eb42110d5cf470fb9ef69590ca17a56\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Workplace Relations and Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002218b18f78721e41e6a4d6f5a957ea16bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218b18f78721e41e6a4d6f5a957ea16bc\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety: Will she take steps to progress work on addressing modern slavery and exploitation in New Zealand\u2019s supply chain; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022d82b9ad4b7ad43b29b0215377529fc32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d82b9ad4b7ad43b29b0215377529fc32\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has not made any decisions on progressing work to address modern slavery and exploitation. Modern slavery is a concerning issue that should be appropriately punished where it has occurred. However, I would also stress that regulations are not required for businesses to review their supply chains and ensure that they are free from modern slavery. I\u2019d also like to point out the many measures that are already in place to combat modern slavery practices under this Government. Dealing in slaves is a criminal offence. Trafficking in persons is a criminal offence. Exploitation of unlawful employees and temporary workers is a criminal offence. Coerced marriage or civil union is a criminal offence. Employment law, including breaches such as failing to retain employment records, denying leave, and underpayment of wages are offences, and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) has published a series of ethical and sustainable work practice resources to help businesses apply ethical and sustainable work practices both within their organisations and across business networks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9b9d62a141b88ead478d1c8b64f2\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Do the New Zealand - UK free-trade agreement and the New Zealand - EU free-trade agreement require New Zealand to have specific measures addressing modern slavery in our supply chain?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac36c24135741939ad871cd4a5d6237\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: We have agreements with both the EU and the UK about modern slavery; however, in my view, the Government\u2019s current practices meet these obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224921d8b56fe44b39a85154c2705ca443\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Given that answer and that the New Zealand - EU agreement has specific provisions for modern slavery in article 19.12 and the New Zealand - UK free-trade agreement has a specific provision in relation to modern slavery in article 23.9, why has MBIE admitted it is doing no such work to implement such measures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208372da970794abeade5ea218c343be3\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just refer to a few of my previous comments. There are a range of criminal offences and offences under New Zealand law that address modern slavery already in place under this Government. Under the UK and EU free-trade agreements, yes, there are requirements about labour laws. It is in my view that our current guidelines and laws meet these obligations. However, I\u2019d also like to suggest that under the previous Government, there was no legislation and there was no work getting anywhere near what that member is suggesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9d573ef545340d492860c835c03ff87\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Is MBIE correct, then, when they said that they ended work on modern slavery that was initiated under the previous Government due to the Minister\u2019s priorities, and, if so, why is modern slavery not a priority for her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db2de187477a49ae95953b9d522d402f\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t asked MBIE to stop work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1779384865f4c5a9605e9a32d11483a\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: So is MBIE incorrect when they stated to the Education and Workforce Committee that they were not working on modern slavery due to a decision made by her\u2014that was incorrect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202dab475f090444a9b2a9af7882c7a38\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d like to suggest that the advice I received on MBIE\u2019s labour market session last week said, \u201Cwork paused at the election\u201D, and that\u2019s a question, really, for the member of that member\u2019s party about why the work paused at the election. Since the election, I\u2019ve asked MBIE to focus on my priorities, which it is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b17361985be0404a9c6e42c2805281da\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Christopher Luxon, who said, \u201CThere\u2019s something I feel very passionate about: is modern slavery for example. It\u2019s something that I\u2019ve been really passionate about for a long time. That\u2019s something that I think we could do a better job \u2026 [on] and have modern slavery legislation and make sure that we\u2019re holding \u2026 ourselves to a standard. There are those things that I feel passionate about.\u201D, and if so, why is modern slavery not a priority for this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d1ca597cd43439d92062c28b5874406\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by the statement made by our Prime Minister, which he also said a few months ago, that at the moment it\u2019s not a priority for us. What is a priority for me is focusing on the issues that really, really matter to New Zealand businesses. If businesses aren\u2019t able to even uphold basic labour market standards such as making sure people have their correct entitlements for holidays pay, we have some serious issues. That Government did not finalise work on holidays pay, and that is one area that is my top priority. We have hundreds if not thousands of Kiwis that are being underpaid their correct entitlements. That is what that member should be focused on\u2014rights for workers here in New Zealand, and that they actually get their correct entitlements paid for by business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d3fd2f21e3741fb88d0e3558876e620\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Building and Construction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9499db9d4134fc7945d953df99b379e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9499db9d4134fc7945d953df99b379e\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: What announcements has the Government made about making it easier to build granny flats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf34ad326e184932b1962c75e4fbcf0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf34ad326e184932b1962c75e4fbcf0f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The coalition Government is making it easier to build granny flats and other small structures up to 60 square metres without the need for resource or building consent. We want less red tape and more knitting wool. This announcement is part of the agreement between the National and New Zealand First coalition and fits within the Government\u2019s wider package of work to streamline the building consent system and address the housing crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022216a32d5872349cfaae6409e0e5d8cbf\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Why are these changes needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221808b3f5900c4c46896e3fb78e561f61\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Over a quarter of the households that do not own their own home spend 40 percent or more of their income on housing. High housing costs have a disproportionately high impact on M\u0101ori, Pacific, and people with disabilities, as well as seniors\u2014including, of course, grannies. This Government is focused on making it easier to build so we can drive down building costs as part of our pledge to rebuild the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250aa0c2d7f7d444faea455da003ea347\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Are these granny flats only for grannies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd3190c527c94febaa3d89975317c38d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Good question. Anyone can live in a granny flat, including youth\u2014think student flats; think those who are youth-adjacent, for example, workers on a farm or other rural setting; and those who are simply young at heart, including even yourself, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6b6069111694d38976307eb45cb0141\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough of that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5c7bded8fd94b34a94b6c1a83408d09\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps for granny flats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282444c8ae78c4971b5274ced7d137f4a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Because we want to make sure that we get the detail of the changes\u00A0right, we have published a discussion document with submissions open until 12\u00A0August for the public to have their say. They can do that online or by emailing grannyflats@mbie.govt.nz. Since Messrs Peters and Bishop announced the policy, already 1,000 Kiwis have provided feedback on this policy\u2014overwhelmingly positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff1365460b52402f9c51b062a2ac5637\u0022\u003ESentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd9780e4edd24627ad22bd1ded813f91\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000616\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002272c23e6ae7f14b179f10229ed8309464\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272c23e6ae7f14b179f10229ed8309464\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Well, this bill is about choices and values, and this Government chooses window dressing over substance. It chooses rhetoric over outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe know that three strikes doesn\u2019t work. We absolutely agree that we want to see a reduction in offending and a reduction in the number of victims, and we want to see reoffending reduced as well. But this reheated policy flies in the face of all of the evidence. The Minister\u2019s own officials have said that there is no consistent pattern to changing crime from three-strikes regimes. The officials have made it absolutely clear that this proposal will do no good whatsoever\u2014in fact, quite the reverse. Not only that but every other jurisdiction in the world, more or less, where these regimes have been introduced have been rolling them back, have been watering them down, or have been getting rid of them entirely. This regime will have no impact on reoffending, will not keep communities safer, will cost $10 million a year, and will see around 90 people in prison who wouldn\u2019t otherwise have been in prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWell, look, the fact of the matter is that we do think that, where there is serious offending, there should be a serious sentence. In fact, we think a rule that says that a judge \u201Cmust impose the maximum penalty prescribed for the offence [where] the offending is within the most serious cases for which the penalty is prescribed, unless there are circumstances [which make it] inappropriate;\u201D\u2014we think that would be a good rule. It sounds a bit like this legislation, except it\u2019s not; it\u2019s actually section 8(c) of the Sentencing Act. So the fact of the matter is sitting there right now in the Sentencing Act is a provision which says a judge must give the most serious sentence to the most serious offending. This bill is simply taking New Zealand backwards. It will have an absolutely disproportionate effect on M\u0101ori as well. We know that, under the last regime, of the people who were subject to a third strike, 81 percent of them were M\u0101ori. Let\u2019s be clear. The Minister has been clear here that this is intentionally disproportionate sentencing. The punishment, by definition, doesn\u2019t need to fit the crime. That is extraordinary. The idea that we are in a modern, First World country where the legislation itself says even if the sentence is disproportionate, that is not an extraordinary circumstance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s true that this bill is not as terrible as the former legislation. It does things like raise the bar to make it a two-year imprisonment sentence as the triggering offence. And then we have a perverse section in there as well, a section that says to a judge, \u201CSentence as if you\u00A0didn\u2019t know that was the case. Ignore that.\u201D Well, the way the justice system works is\u00A0that people take into account all of those factors when they come to litigate a case. The\u00A0prosecutor themselves will know what the consequences of a strike sentence will be.\u00A0The prosecutor has a very significant role to play in what sentence is sought. It\u2019s often the prosecutor who undertakes plea negotiations and makes submissions on sentence indications. So those kinds of statements or provisions in the legislation which say \u201CDon\u2019t take that into account when sentencing\u201D are largely meaningless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENot only is this a vile piece of legislation in the sense that it\u2019s intentionally imposing disproportionate sentences; it\u2019s entirely unworkable. The provisions setting out how judges should impose sentences simply won\u2019t work. They take no real account of how the justice and sentencing system works, and they will have no impact on the safety of communities or the number of victims. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u00229d3828b3d9054a84b7c6937e6d566ea3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d3828b3d9054a84b7c6937e6d566ea3\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Well, welcome to an era of mass incarceration, which has been brought in by Minister McKee and their misguided, unimaginative approach to dealing with the very real harm that is happening in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be straight up about what we\u2019ve got in front of us. We\u2019ve got a concept of three strikes that we have imported from the United States, of all countries\u2014the country with the most incarcerated people in the world. That is the country that our Government has chosen as an exemplar for our justice system. And where did they get that idea from? They got it from a game of baseball\u2014a game of baseball\u2014where it\u2019s three strikes and you\u2019re out. But this is not a game, and if the Government actually put some effort into basing their law and order policies on evidence, rather than a game where there are winners and losers, maybe our communities would get the safety and the peaceful way of life that they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EBut we\u2019re playing games\u2014we\u2019re playing games with people\u2019s lives, and it\u2019s not just the people that we\u2019re sentencing that suffer; it\u2019s their entire families and often their communities too, because children of people in prison are nine times more likely to go to prison. And now, thanks to the new young serious offenders category, they can go into prison even earlier! That\u2019s the approach of this Government to law and order. It\u2019s a game of how many prisons can we build and how many beds can we fill with poor, disabled, brown people before the public rejects this failed logic. Locking people up and punishing people does not lead to the safe communities that the public deserves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EAt the rate we\u2019re heading, we are going to need a new prison every few years. The billion dollars\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022420c77b14c9e4402b1f9052286b06253\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t worry; we\u2019re building them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8f25e66cd994f96914bc473fc208fab\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s shameful. It\u2019s unimaginative. It\u2019s a waste of money when the Government could be putting that money into housing, into education, into job opportunities, into livable benefits, into the public health system\u2014but, no, let\u2019s build more mega-prisons! That is the sum ambition of this Government. They\u2019ve scrapped prison population reduction targets, they\u2019ve removed Treaty provisions from the corrections bill, and they have made it easier to lock up children, with the young serious offender category, because that is their ambition and they think they can just lock people up and that\u2019s going to solve the issue. Well, it won\u2019t, because it\u2019s a failure, just like three strikes was a failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe concept of continuing to repeat failed experiments is the definition of insanity. Three strikes was a failed experiment. It\u2019s a policy that has, according to advisers, limited evidence that it reduces serious crime. Officials weren\u2019t even able to identify any quantifiable benefits for this bill. And that\u2019s because there is none. There are no benefits from reintroducing three strikes. The evidence also shows that judicial discretion is better than mandatory sentences, because it allows for the circumstances of each person to be taken into account. And that matters when you look at who\u2019s actually in prison: more than 90 percent of people in prison have a lifetime diagnosable mental health or substance abuse issue; more than 75 percent of people in prison have been victims of violence. I know the Government loves to talk about victims of violence. How about that\u2014that a majority of people in prisons are victims themselves? It\u2019s a false dichotomy to make it out like there\u2019s a difference. They are victims too. Around 71 percent of people in prison have significant literacy issues, and one in three people who were in State residential care between 1950 and 1999 ends up serving a prison sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EPrisons should never be the only answer, yet they have become the only answer because that is the sum ambition of this Government and of the Minister. They choose to ignore the strong evidence about the failure of three strikes. They continue to restore failed policies. Until they wake up and realise it doesn\u2019t work, we will get no better outcomes in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u00223131541961534eb3b27e559283bbb024\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223131541961534eb3b27e559283bbb024\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It snuck in there at the end, didn\u2019t it? The people getting locked up are the victims\u2014that\u2019s what we heard\u2014they\u2019re the victims; they\u2019re the ones we should be worried about. It\u2019s mean; it\u2019s mean to put serious offenders behind bars. Well, actually, I don\u2019t support that. I don\u2019t believe that, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re here; that\u2019s why we\u2019re passing this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EI hear the call that says this isn\u2019t the only way to deal with it, and that\u2019s why we have a social investment approach in this Government, targeting those resources early where they can make a difference, but where there is serious offending and where there are victims that are seriously impacted by this, there has to be consequence, and this bill does that. It brings backs consequence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EThere is still the out provision for where it\u2019s manifestly unjust, unless of course it\u2019s murder. It has to go to the senior courts for that third strike but there has to be guidance that ensures there will be serious consequences for serious offenders in the right circumstance. That\u2019s what this bill does; it just needs to be read. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022dba53594f9684aa5863d030967621434\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dba53594f9684aa5863d030967621434\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I am floored that we just heard a diatribe about using imagination. This is not about imagining; this is about fact. This is about looking in the eyes of victims and saying, \u201CWe hear you and we will make you safe.\u201D This is not about rhetoric and clever phrases; this is about practical actions to make our communities safer and ensure that serious offenders know there will be consequences. We will not continue down the path of taking mercy against an offender who has inflicted harm. This is not a programme that\u2019s in isolation; this is a wraparound social response. But, at one end of the spectrum, there has to be an ability to make sure they will not create further victims. We will ensure that happens. We will ensure that they know there is a consequence. I fully commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u002298ac50aa43e94407ad450b050fd935e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298ac50aa43e94407ad450b050fd935e5\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u0101 Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te rangi nei, \u0101, e kaha whakah\u0113 ana i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire kua tae mai ki r\u014D P\u0101remata i t\u0113nei rangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker, indeed greetings to us all in the House. I stand to give voice to the statements of the M\u0101ori Party today, and we strongly oppose this bill that has arrived in Parliament today.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori is deeply concerned about this Government\u2019s decision to reinstate the three-strikes regime. Our principal concern is this legislation will only worsen an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system. These issues have been well articulated and documented by the great minds, like Dr Moana Jackson in The Maori and the Criminal Justice System: A New Perspective\u2014He Whaipaanga Hou, and more recently by movements and organisations like JustSpeak. Further still, in its own advice to Cabinet and through its regulatory impact statement, the Ministry of Justice explained that \u201CReinstating a three strikes regime will exacerbate the over-representation of populations which are already disproportionately represented in the justice system. While there are options to modify the regime which would minimise the overall impact on M\u0101ori, M\u0101ori would continue to be disproportionately represented in the relative terms, perhaps even more so than under a broader regime.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EPublic commentary, including by Criminal Bar Association vice-president Annabel Creswell, also raised doubts about the legislation: \u201CCriminal justice policy has to be based on evidence, and there\u2019s no evidence that three strikes either reduces crime or assists the rehabilitation,\u201D. Evidence briefs from the Ministry of Justice explained that there\u2019s no evidence of three-strikes policy reducing crime or having a serious effect on crimes at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWhat we do know about three-strikes legislation is that during the time it was in place here in Aotearoa, M\u0101ori and Pasifika received over 50 percent of the strikes, and 63 percent of those with a second strike were M\u0101ori. Three strikes in its short term had unjustly perpetrated racism and caught M\u0101ori with no evidence of reducing crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EOur grave concern is that this legislation will result in unjust sentences which will only deliver mass imprisonment to M\u0101ori and Pasifika people nationwide, and that this House is setting into place a regime held up by a lack of evidence and by racial bias that should shock all peoples who called this place their home. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori insists on intelligent policy and rehabilitation; rather, this legislation strengthens the race-based system of colonisation that continues to deliver race-based outcomes. The evidence shows that tangata whenua are more likely to be treated unjustly at one or all of these stages in the criminal justice process. The extent of the racial bias within the criminal justice system means that we must do everything we can to stop the pipeline to prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EFinally, advice put to the Ministers also notes that regarding the three-strikes legislation, claims before the Waitangi Tribunal are possible, including the live and existing Waitangi Tribunal claim Te Rau o te Tika: the Justice System Kaupapa Inquiry, Wai 3060. Article 3 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi means that until outstanding justice inequities between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori are resolved meaningfully, no justice system in Aotearoa will ever be just, in Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWe encourage tangata whenua and tangata Tiriti allies everywhere to utilise every tool, pathway, and process available to advance the transformation of the criminal justice system here in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira koinei aku koha ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire. E kaha whakah\u0113 ana Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i t\u0113nei pire. [And so that is my contribution to this bill. The M\u0101ori Party strongly opposes this bill.] We oppose this bill. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u002251448a65f29145d5a7bdcbb8f33aaaf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251448a65f29145d5a7bdcbb8f33aaaf7\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E If New Zealanders weren\u2019t already on notice that this is a Government committed to restoring law and order in this country, well, they are now. Along with this excellent piece of legislation, the Government, today, also announced strengthening of our sentencing laws. On the weekend, the Prime Minister, along with the Minister for Children, Karen Chhour, announced new serious youth offender categories. And, of course, there are new cops hitting the beat as we speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EAs chair of the busy and effective Justice Committee, we look forward to considering our 16th bill for this Parliament. We will look forward to the robust and strong exchanges amongst committee members. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca329e6f7e91478ab693c046ff987bbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca329e6f7e91478ab693c046ff987bbc\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you for that lengthy and detailed contribution from the Government! So this is an interesting bill. One thing that strikes me is that I often wonder why this Government keeps implementing legislation that has absolutely no evidence to back it. I mean, it\u2019s a sensible question. You can see that we might not see eye to eye on a lot of heartfelt issues, but you would think if you\u2019re going to do some decent analysis, check some facts and figures, to actually go through and look at history as to what works and what doesn\u2019t work. Why is it that, particularly in the space of law and order, this Government continues to implement policy and decisions that have zero evidence to back them up? It\u2019s a legitimate question, and I think the answer is that they don\u2019t really care about the outcome. They want something that looks good, that ticks the box of getting a vote, that keeps people happy here and now and makes it sound OK, but they have zero vested interest in the long-term benefits to New Zealand. That\u2019s what really bothers me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis legislation first came to New Zealand way back in 2010. It was a coalition agreement between ACT and National when Rodney Hide was a member of the ACT Party. At that point in time, I was working within New Zealand Police, and what happened at that point was that we were tasked to try and figure out how to implement this new system across three different computer systems in the justice sector. There was no consideration the first time this came in as to how it would be implemented. There was someone\u2014namely me\u2014who sat and had to watch three databases for when we got a striker. And when we got a striker who was eligible, we had to call up the courtroom and tell the person who was prosecuting in the courtroom that they had to call out to the judge and notify them that there was a strike. If that didn\u2019t happen, that person got away without a strike. We had to draw straws on a weekly basis over who fronted up and told Judith Collins how many strikes had got away that week and how many strikes had got away that month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis goes to my point that there was no interest in how this was actually going to be implemented and monitored. There was no investment in the system of how it was actually going to work because all that was wanted to be achieved\u2014the only thing that was to be achieved\u2014was that it looked good. It looked good and it ticked the box, and it is no different now. This is something that we saw during scrutiny week which was very interesting. In scrutiny week, Nicole McKee, as the Associate Minister of Justice, fronted up to the Justice Committee at scrutiny week, and Nicole McKee openly stated that the first time three strikes was introduced, it didn\u2019t work. We had ACT on record in scrutiny week, stating that the first bill didn\u2019t work, because she had received advice from the Ministry of Justice that demonstrated the first time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f205deb14f8440493aa8661504eec1f\u0022\u003EHon Nicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: So why are you talking about it? We\u2019re on to the second version now. Time to move on, Ginny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af328699054446089a0191ef042b975d\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got it on record, Nicole; it\u2019s there\u2014you said it had problems and it didn\u2019t work properly at all. So the reason why they had to peddle it back was because the advice came through from the Ministry of Justice officials that it had zero deterrent effect on criminal offending. It had no impact on reducing the number of victims and it had no impact on actually making a meaningful difference in our justice system. That\u2019s what the advice is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe bill we have now is a reheated version. It\u2019s actually slightly less worse than the first one they fronted up in 2010. But it goes to the point that there\u2019s no new ideas in the bucket. They\u2019re just reheating old, failed stuff that still doesn\u2019t work, and rebranding it in some kind of sad attempt to look tough and look cool. I\u2019m afraid that it just doesn\u2019t work. It\u2019s sad to see this implemented once again. I am pleased to see that they\u2019ve made some changes, including the manifestly unjust provision, which will go some way to mitigating the damage that this will do. It shows no faith in our judiciary, it shows no faith in our justice system, and it will have zero impact on reducing victims, even though those members opposite will\u00A0continue to sing its praises and say it will fix everything. Only time will tell. As we\u2019ve seen in the past bill, this will do nothing to reduce victims. It\u2019s a waste of time. It\u2019s a waste of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u002229b8ffdbd9804f0b90601af230fdf927\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229b8ffdbd9804f0b90601af230fdf927\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. What a great day for law and order in this country. What a great day for Upper Harbour. Look, I stand in support\u2014full support\u2014of the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. This Government is delivering on our commitment to introduce the revised three-strikes law as one of our key law and order priorities, after that lot repealed it in 2022. And did that help? No, no. What\u2019s happened since 2022? It\u2019s only got worse. This bill will help protect victims and communities by keeping violent criminals off the streets and by delivering justice for the victims of serious violent and sexual offending. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00228146d8a8d49a4cb6bc4bf9aeec6ec8b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228146d8a8d49a4cb6bc4bf9aeec6ec8b3\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the chance to make a contribution, as one does, to the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. I\u2019m surprised by the previous contribution daring to bring up the concept of law and order on the North Shore, when it was only a couple of days ago\u2014didn\u2019t we learn?\u2014that the harbour cops are being moved to the CBD to bolster the police presence there. But good on you for standing up for your communities!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs has been previously said, and we don\u2019t need to go over it in too much detail, this bill simply isn\u2019t needed. It\u2019s not needed, because the law already says, as my colleague the Hon\u00A0Dr Duncan Webb said earlier, a judge must impose the maximum penalty prescribed for the offence if the offending is within the most serious of cases for which the penalty is prescribed, obviously unless circumstances relating to the offender make that inappropriate. That is part of the Sentencing Act. So this rhetoric that somehow this Government, who is very light on evidence and very big on big noting and rhetoric, is somehow reinventing and rewriting the Sentencing Act is just nonsense. This is simply another means by which to introduce something that, essentially, does nothing. But, in this case, not only does it not do what it says on the tin, it actually does harm. It\u2019s reintroducing a reheated policy that has already failed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI note, as my colleague the Hon Ginny Andersen has just said now, that we acknowledge the fact that the first three-strike bill was terrible, as was the Act. This is less rubbish, but it\u2019s not much less rubbish. Therefore, it kind of feels like it\u2019s a little bit of a waste of our time. We know that there is absolutely no evidence that three strikes reduces reoffending, and that should be the Government\u2019s goal. If the Government\u2019s going to talk a big talk about being tough on crime, the only way you can be tough on crime is to reduce crime. Doing things that don\u2019t reduce crime is a waste of our time. It doesn\u2019t reduce reoffending. There\u2019s plenty of evidence to suggest that it actually makes rehabilitation worse. It certainly doesn\u2019t act as a deterrent. So if the goal in the long run is to not make things better, this is a step in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs has already previously been also discussed, it removes judicial discretion, which I think is a slippery slope and that is not something that we should be doing. Also, when I suggested that it does harm, we know that it does disproportionately impact on M\u0101ori, on people with cognitive diversity or people with cognitive impairments; they absolutely bear the brunt of these knee-jerk reactions so that the Government can appear tough on crime. Ultimately, it\u2019s just part of that ideology\u2014the Government always claims it doesn\u2019t have any, which is a misnomer in itself\u2014that punishment leads to change. That doesn\u2019t happen. The regulatory impact statement and several other sources have explicitly stated through cost-benefit analyses and various other evidence-based methodologies that we haven\u2019t been able to see any significant quantifiable benefit in this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EImportantly, the provision stating\u2014this is the part that I find quite interesting\u2014that the courts must not take into account the additional consequences of the three-strikes regime when determining the sentence, therefore, makes it unenforceable and meaningless. What I mean by that is that lawyers and judges can\u2019t unknow what they know. If they know there\u2019s going to be a loss of parole eligibility at strike two, it\u2019s going to change the way that they act. They will have that in their mind when considering sentences, and judges will as well. Judges will also know the impact of imposing a 24-month sentence as opposed to imposing a 23-month sentence. So, ultimately, it\u2019s going to change those thresholds and it\u2019s going to mean there\u2019s some perverse sort of outcomes as people skirt their way around this\u2014not to mention the fact that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act obviously prohibits severely disproportionate sentences, and we know that this has the ability to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo, at the end of the day, it\u2019s a big price to pay, considering all the extra people in prison and all the extra costs that that incurs for the National Government to talk about the fact that they\u2019re tough on crime. It has zero impact on crime. It has zero impact on reducing victims of crime. It\u2019s a cheap and nasty way of the Government trying to send a message out there for people who don\u2019t know any better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022736585a6d47c4d899ab42c2a7fd624c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022736585a6d47c4d899ab42c2a7fd624c7\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Restoring three strikes is about restoring law and order. We on the Government benches make no apologies for taking action to crack down on crime, hold serious offenders to account, and make our towns and cities safer. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ac7575a7d65f42a8890629e49bea9887\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000659\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000660\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 68, Noes 55.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022267d450f86124574b1b3f5e9331ed70e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 1\u00A0November\u00A02024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229a03f63e102149f98162cff71df0dd3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a03f63e102149f98162cff71df0dd3f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a82fba088c9455c877ec3fa88c67e89\u0022\u003EInstruction to Justice Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00226d424d8c1ede4ae296890f75aaed85b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d424d8c1ede4ae296890f75aaed85b2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 1\u00A0November\u00A02024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000666\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 68, Noes 55.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002234c0ec432ab04a2e991c59781147713a\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d0c7693bdf24be68cf10f15f7e5406c\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227ced9769dd9b4c0ebf2f00f6b67a333f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ced9769dd9b4c0ebf2f00f6b67a333f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8243c5db554750bf868e7066f41e4e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d124ac2c8d824119b76795747006e9d0\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Primary Production Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 1\u00A0November\u00A02024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis bill will amend the Climate Change Response Act 2022 to keep agriculture out of the emissions trading scheme (ETS). It will pave the way for us to develop a fair and sustainable pricing system for agriculture that reduces emissions without sending that production offshore for farmers who are less efficient than they are here in New Zealand. This bill supports the Government coalition agreements and the National Party\u2019s manifesto. It delivers on action number 12 of the quarter two action plan to finalise policy to keep agriculture out of the emissions trading scheme. But not only that, it actually supports farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAgriculture is the backbone of the New Zealand economy. It contributes 81 percent of goods exported and New Zealand - grown produce feeds over 40 million people worldwide. This Government is committed to supporting our farmers and the sector to reduce its emissions in a way that does not put farmers out of business and shifts production offshore. Currently, under the Climate Change Response Act, agricultural processes will begin to pay for emissions associated with the fertiliser and livestock that they process from 1 January 2025. Animal farmers will begin reporting their on-farm emissions from 1 January 2026, and paying for those emissions from 1 January 2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EModelling commissioned by officials suggests that requiring agricultural processes to pay for their emissions under the emissions trading scheme would have a negative impact on both farm production and farm revenue, particularly for the sheep and beef sector. In our current fiscal environment, we cannot let agricultural production be sent offshore. Additionally, if agricultural processes are required to pay for on-farm emissions, that may mean that they pass these costs directly on to farmers, regardless of whether the farmers\u2019 emissions efficiency rates are what they are. This means that there will be no incentive for farmers to reduce emissions and there will be no financial recognition for their individual effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe obligations on animal farmers that start from 2026 would add additional problems. These obligations could require up to 100,000 animal farmers registered, reporting, and paying for their emissions in the ETS. This would be overly burdensome for small farmers and would significantly increase the number of participants in that scheme, which could disrupt the operation of the scheme. This is why this bill is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn short, without it, the current system will present significant administrative, implementation, and compliance costs to our domestic agriculture sector. This Government is taking the steps necessary to support the development of the right tools and technology for farmers to reduce their emissions. We will invest $400 million over the next four years to accelerate the commercialisation of tools and technology to reduce on-farm emissions with on-farm measurement systems in place by 2025. This Government has commissioned a methane science and target review to consider the methane science and targets for consistency with no additional warming. These are only some of the actions that this Government is taking. More will be set out in the second emissions reduction plan, which we will begin consultation on soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn my maiden speech I spoke about how challenging times will require us to work together in the interests of all New Zealanders, and that is what this coalition Government is doing. Minister McClay and I recently announced that the Government has disestablished the He Waka Eke Noa - Primary Sector Climate Action Partnership. Instead, we are setting up a pastural sector group to work directly with the sector in a way that\u2019s fit for purpose. The Government has committed to doubling the value of exports in the next 10 years to help rebuild our economy. We cannot allow production to move offshore to less carbon-efficient farmers. And that\u2019s why this is important work that we work with the sector, not against it, to ensure consumers\u2019 expectations of sustainability are met while maintaining profitability in the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAs I outlined earlier, this bill is an initial step in this Government\u2019s plan to support farmers to reduce their emissions. The Government has signalled our commitment to introduce a fair and sustainable pricing system for on-farm emissions by 2030, and keeping agriculture out of the ETS is a key part of that commitment. I look forward to working with the sector, iwi M\u0101ori, and the public as we implement this plan and deliver on our climate change commitment. I am proud to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229ff855d20e234facba40d733c2ecc5ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ff855d20e234facba40d733c2ecc5ab\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1511943f2c6425fb7f1aaab4316ecbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1511943f2c6425fb7f1aaab4316ecbe\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I wouldn\u2019t say it is my pleasure to take a call on this bill. Labour will not be supporting this legislation because this is a piece of legislation that is making a poor choice and it is a piece of legislation that is taking New Zealand backwards. If ever there was a can in New Zealand politics in the late 20th and early 21st centuries that has been continuously kicked down the road, it is that of agricultural emissions and where it fits in our emissions trading schemes (ETS), and, indeed, our emissions pricing schemes. This is something that it is time that we as a country had a clear plan for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, what we\u2019re seeing in this bill that has been brought to the House by the Government is clear evidence that there is no plan. The only plan is to further kick that can down the road and to delay the inevitable, which, for many decades, has been tumbling along. When we see the objectives of this bill are twofold\u2014to keep agriculture out of the ETS by repealing all New Zealand\u2019s emission training schemes obligations for agricultural activities from the Climate Change Response Act of 2002; and also ensuring that agricultural emissions are not subject to surrender obligations under the New Zealand ETS, and all the languages about removal and prevention\u2014once again, we are seeing not a glimmer of what the vision of this Government might be, what the plan might be, and where they may be going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EFarm-related emissions\u2014biogenic emissions\u2014make up 49 percent of New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions. Of those, methane makes up the majority of those. It is agreed across this House, and there is multipartisan support, that we need to reach net zero by 2050. That is an area that we have agreement on, but what we have to have is this Government start to front up and tell us how they plan to do this. They don\u2019t plan to do it in the same way that we as a Government plan to do it, and that was by having a plan, that\u00A0was by actually cutting emissions. The Minister of Climate Change continually telling us \u201CWait till you say see emissions reduction plan 2.\u201D is not good enough. We need to have\u00A0transparency around what those plans are and we need to be debating them across this\u00A0House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhen the zero carbon Act was passed in 2019, it was a watershed moment for New Zealand. It was a moment when we could come together, put politics aside, and agree on a direction of travel as a country in this House. We are a better country for having done that. But it is disappointing that we\u2019re not seeing us grasp the most difficult of nettles by having a plan. It is vital that we have a plan to reduce our agricultural emissions, to meet our various obligations, not at least of all our agreed target to be net zero by 2050, to meet our nationally determined contribution under the Paris Agreement and various other international obligations. But I would also point to the economic necessity for New Zealand to meet these obligations. I would like to acknowledge the work and the huge amount of work that was done in our Government by my colleague the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor\u2014not only as the Minister of Agriculture but as a man who went and negotiated successful trade deals in both the EU and the UK, and understood that market access into these most lucrative of markets was actually contingent on us having some ambition in climate action\u2014that includes agriculture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIf we want to continue to sell our high value agricultural products into certain markets, us being an international laggard is simply not going to cut it. We have within those trade agreements clauses that speak to the necessity for both parties of those agreements to fulfil their international climate obligations, and time and time and time again we are seeing from this Government a walking back of what action is being taken to fulfil those obligations. In this case, in this piece of legislation that we\u2019re debating here today, that is around agricultural emissions. We\u2019re seeing it in transport, we\u2019re seeing it in industrial and process heat, we\u2019re seeing it in every part of the New Zealand economy\u2014a walking back of the actions that we were taking to get us there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we have is a Government, in doing this, that is putting New Zealanders\u2019 future at risk\u2014not only our ability to get our agricultural products into high value markets and to fulfil our trade obligations but the jobs of the future as well. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022d92d281e8a394ab588ef33e3a1f2b04b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d92d281e8a394ab588ef33e3a1f2b04b\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. It\u2019ll come as no surprise that the Greens will be opposing the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill today, so I\u2019d like to walk through some of the rationale for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EFirstly, I just wanted to acknowledge my forebears, particularly in the Green Party, the likes of whom the Hon Dr Megan Woods did, particularly the Hon James Shaw for the work that he has done, because, funnily enough, with the new path that this Government has decided to embark on, with yet another working group, they may indeed find that He Waka Eke Noa was \u201CHe Waka Eke Nowhere\u201D. Once again, we are seeing the can kicked down the road when it comes to climate action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis Government also tells us that they want to see pricing on agricultural emissions by 2030. Let\u2019s just unpack why agricultural emissions should be priced in the first place, because I think that\u2019s kind of a foundational argument, which has kind of been avoided thus far in the debate. Agriculture is currently the only sector within our economy that does not carry with it a price, in terms of the emissions trading scheme. It is the only sector which currently is excluded from the emissions trading scheme. Its inclusion is a debate that we have been having in this place, in Parliament and across politics in this country, for approximately 20-odd years, and we have not yet found any meaningful conclusion where farmers across the board, or rather the peak bodies that represent them, will say, \u201CHey, guess what? We actually want to be priced.\u201D As it turns out, that would happen to be the role of Government, to make those necessary, bold decisions to say that we are going to treat industries across our economy equitably.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk about that equity. Well, as has been pointed out by the Minister of Climate Change, particularly speaking about export numbers, we should provide a little bit more context here. Agriculture is responsible for 5 percent of the GDP in this country\u20145\u00A0percent of GDP in this country. Those aren\u2019t my figures; those figures are from Infometrics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277dd757a0e974157ad5605206383f20b\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: 82 percent of export income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc6c218178924c57ad029345dd69bf9c\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: And, to those speakers presently heckling me, or rather those members in the National Party presently heckling me, 5 percent of our GDP is responsible for more than half of our emissions profile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205b3ef483f39407591132b0e682f57fa\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Different gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad734e5cbde14f77b9232dbb44df4c21\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Yet, it is the only sector that\u2019s currently not priced for those emissions within our emissions trading scheme. What that means, to that National member presently heckling, is that every other part of the economy that this Government professes to care so much about carries the burden for the sector presently not priced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EInterestingly, as was canvassed at scrutiny week with the climate Minister, and, actually, the Minister of Finance as well, this Government is also saying that they are still committed to what is currently baked into the legislation, for a 10 percent reduction in methane emissions by 2030. Yet, we have no idea of the pathway to get there, because they\u2019re kicking the can down the road on this pricing issue. More so than that, something which is very deserving of interrogation, is the fact that this bill also takes us back to the future on reporting requirements for processors\u2019 emissions. This is a really, really important point, because, actually, it wasn\u2019t until 2020 that there was publicity given to processor-level emissions, but it was actually in 2011 when processors were required to report that information to Government bodies. The Government, in this bill, with the swipe of a pen, is taking away those reporting requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe only conclusion that we can come to as a result of that is that they just don\u2019t want to know, so, therefore, they don\u2019t have to deal with the issue. This is really something that I\u2019d like to hear from the Hon Todd McClay about. Why, the Hon Todd McClay, is your Government removing requirements for reporting on emissions, because you have committed in your coalition agreements to making decisions based on data and evidence? Further, the climate Minister was crowing about the fact that there is a new working group when it comes to the idea of no additional warming. Here, I would implore all members to look at the evidence and the data that is already there amply. The Climate Change Commission released three draft pieces of advice at the beginning of this year, two of which referred explicitly\u2014and they haven\u2019t done this before\u2014to the agreement between the National Party and the ACT Party, and said that if we were to pursue that no-additional-warming framing that they are putting out there, we would see a far higher burden on every other household and sector of the economy in this country. But, more so than that, to purse such a policy position would obscure the bigger question of whether we should pull our weight and reach our targets internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ENow, those targets are often spoken about as though they\u2019re some kind of abstract numbers on a page, but those targets are actually the scientific reality, the scientific fundamentals, for life on Earth as we know it\u2014actually, for food-growing capacity, which this Government says they care about. It also is the case that those nationally determined contributions under the Paris Agreement put us on the hook, by 2030, for anywhere between $3.6 billion and $24 billion, and the difference is whether we get our act together and do something domestically. The Greens oppose this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdfa0b61e8354bd38011845ef50f1e5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdfa0b61e8354bd38011845ef50f1e5a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a great joy to be here today giving benefit to this bill and ensuring that it passes. This bill, the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill, this ag emissions trading scheme (ETS) backstop, has been hanging like the sword of Damocles over the farming sector for the last six years. One of the best things, or perhaps the only good thing, that came out of the whole He Waka Eke Noa process was the Government report in October\u00A02022 which laid out the costs of He Waka Eke Noa, but it also laid out the costs of agriculture going into the ETS.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade64e29110f47c790ec19112991355d\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: How much does your group cost, Andrew? We don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022417f45c2dec049d8aea26677c9731e61\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me give you some numbers on what this will cost rural New Zealand. No, I\u2019ll give you the cost from the figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a25428babd7b41a2a949aece3e1ca452\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: No, but give us the costs on your working group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236dde16614444454919c18b314219c97\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, calm it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221773ae8eb1ce4087851428c6d5bda89d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d ask two things: one is, I don\u2019t need to know the numbers, nor does an interjector in your speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e74ef5ef2d394505bcff168a25fa0148\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Milk production will be down by 8 percent under the ETS; lamb by 19 percent; beef, 44 percent; wool, 18 percent; venison, 37 percent. We introduced the ag into the ETS. Those are the reductions you will see. Based off the latest situation for primary industries, what does that equal? From the dairy industry, $2.4 billion; from the lamb, $600 million; beef, $2.1 billion; wool, $68 million; venison, $81 million. All up, that\u2019s around $5.3 billion gone from regional New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EWhen you think about the economic multipliers\u2014somewhere between 1.8 to 2.7\u2014that\u2019s\u00A0going to feel like $10 to $15 billion to regional New Zealand. We heard before, \u201COh, this will take New Zealand backwards. Implementing this will take New Zealand backwards.\u201D These are costs rural New Zealand, regional New Zealand, and New Zealand cannot afford. You know, we\u2019ve heard about \u201CWhat about the market access?\u201D Well, no offence, but we didn\u2019t get a hell of a lot of market access for dairy or beef in the EU trade deal. So, I\u2019m sorry, but I don\u2019t see how that\u2019s relevant to this situation. And we\u2019re the best in the world. We have the lowest footprint. If they\u2019re going to say, \u201COh, you can\u2019t export your food here, because of your emissions.\u201D, well, our emissions are lower than theirs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard about this whole thing around, \u201COh, the Climate Change Commission says it\u2019s going to cost some people more.\u201D Well, the problem there is because we have a very silly nationally determined contribution that was put in place by the previous Government. It didn\u2019t take into account split gas. So, internationally, we have a non - split gas approach. Nationally, we have a split-gas approach. We\u2019re charging ourselves too much, and that\u2019s why they came out with that report. But I think it\u2019s important we\u2019ve just got to go back to the whole point: methane is a short-lived gas. No additional warming makes sense. That is what the basis of the Paris accord is\u2014limit warming to an additional 1.5 to 2 degrees. We are aiming to ensure that New Zealand agriculture doesn\u2019t add anything to that. That is a sensible and smart goal to work for, not reducing agriculture by $5 billion and making New Zealand poorer. These are sensible, smart decisions that New Zealand needs to take into account. So I commend this bill to the House, and well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u00223e2181d960e745e19620923c25554a4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e2181d960e745e19620923c25554a4c\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak on the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill. What I\u2019d like to say first is that we have world-class farmers that are probably the most efficient farmers in the world. They\u2019re also facing some unique challenges and those unique challenges at the moment are affecting the agricultural sector. This bill here actually provides some support to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports this bill because it aligns with the party\u2019s principle of safeguarding the interest of farmers and ensuring that climate policies are pragmatic and effective. By removing the agricultural obligations from the New Zealand emissions trading scheme, the bill removes unnecessary compliance costs and administrative burdens on farmers. It recognises the impracticality of a one-size-fits-all approach to emission pricing and supports the split-gas approach that is more suitable to the New Zealand agricultural context. New Zealand First believes that this bill is a step towards achieving a balanced and a fair climate policy that supports both environmental sustainability and the agricultural economy. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a14ef90cf5954ded8919ce39b17f7cda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a14ef90cf5954ded8919ce39b17f7cda\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tau e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u0101 Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te rangi nei, \u0101, e kaha whakah\u0113 ana i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire e takahi ana i t\u014D m\u0101tou nei taiao, \u014D m\u0101tou nei pepeha, ki t\u014Dku iwi ake, ki t\u014Dku rohe ake o Hauraki/Waikato, ki te awa o \u014Dku t\u016Bpuna, ar\u0101 ko Waikato. Ka tiki ake au i t\u0113tehi o ng\u0101 tongikura a K\u012Bngi T\u0101whiao i a ia e noho ana ki te riu o Waikato: \u201Cwai h\u014Dpuapua ka mimiti noa, nei ko Waiarona; he manawa whenua e kore e mimiti.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker, indeed greetings to us all in the House. I stand to give voice to the statements of the M\u0101ori Party today, and we strongly oppose this bill that abuses our environment, our expressions of identity, to my very own iwi, my very own electorate of Hauraki/Waikato, to the river of my ancestors\u2014i.e., the Waikato. I recall the proverbial saying of King T\u0101whiao while he was in residence in the Waikato basin: \u201Cponds of water will diminish, like Waiarona; a deep water spring will never diminish.\u201D]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EJust as the waters of the Waikato spring deep from beneath the earth, Waikato people, like the river we take our name from, we will never go dry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori is deeply concerned about the changes to climate change legislation that is not mokopuna focused. What this bill does: this bill amends the Climate Change Response Act 2002 to remove pakihi ahuwhenua\u2014agriculture\u2014from the New Zealand Emissions Trading Scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThis bill does away with He Waka Eke Noa, a partnership effort between Government, iwi, and the primary sector to address climate change in pakihi ahuwhenua. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori is concerned that the words \u201Ciwi\u201D and \u201CMa\u014Dri do not appear once in this new legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWhy Te P\u0101ti Ma\u014Dri opposes this bill: we oppose this bill in the name of mana motuhake. These changes are being proposed without consultation or input from te iwi Ma\u014Dri, whereas He Waka Eke Noa was at least particularly developed in consultation with Ma\u014Dri. We are not included at all in the pastoral sector group that will replace He Waka Eke Noa or M\u0101ori whakaaro.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill in the name of mana \u014Drite. M\u0101ori have been locked out of the conversation around climate change in agriculture. M\u0101ori farmers who want to transition into sustainable farming will not be supported to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill in the name of mana mokopuna. This bill was a part of a suite of policies that will allocate climate change and ensure our biggest polluters are let off the hook. The polluters should pay; instead, it will be our mokopuna. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EHei whakakapi ake i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i t\u0113nei rangi: ko te toto o te tangata he kai; ko te oranga o te tangata he whenua: While food provides for the blood in our veins, our health is drawn from the land. N\u014D reira koin\u0101 aku koha ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire; e kaha whakah\u0113 ana Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[To conclude the statements of the M\u0101ori Party today: while food provides for the blood in our veins, our health is drawn from the land. And so these are my contributions to this bill; the M\u0101ori Party strongly opposes it.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdfc995edc98447f884f68fe63818eeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdfc995edc98447f884f68fe63818eeb\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We, of course, are supporting this legislation. It\u2019s extremely important so we can lay the foundations and groundwork to actually find an enduring solution to agricultural emissions reduction. Because, sadly, after six years of the last Government, that wasn\u2019t achieved; the only thing that was achieved was \u201CDo what we say or else we\u2019re going to tax you, and for some of you farmers, we will tax you out of existence.\u201D Now, if we were the worst carbon-emitting food producers in the world, that would be an argument with merit. However, we\u2019re not. We\u2019re some of the best\u2014if not the best\u2014most efficient food producers with the lowest carbon footprint.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAnd all that happens if you put a tax upon agriculture\u2014which is what the last Government legislated for by putting agriculture into the emissions trading scheme (ETS) next year; of course, it\u2019s not in at the moment, it comes into effect on 1\u00A0January without this change\u2014is that jobs and production goes overseas. What that means is that in the European Union and the United Kingdom and America, where their farmers produce food with a greater carbon footprint and more emissions than New Zealand farmers have, they will produce the food, the climate will be worse off, New Zealand will be poorer if farmers go out of business, and we won\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EBut we are absolutely committed to meeting New Zealand\u2019s international obligations when it comes to reducing emissions. The members opposite are right: the agriculture rural sector must play its part. But it must play its part in a way that doesn\u2019t put them out of business and merely makes New Zealand feel like it\u2019s done the right thing but sends those jobs and production overseas. Speakers from the Opposition have said, \u201CWell, what\u2019s the Government\u2019s plan?\u201D It\u2019s really clear: we campaigned on it, we were elected, and we are putting it through. Number one, we will commit to having an independent review of the science and targets of methane against additional warming this year so we can set the target of what agriculture has to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EYou see, the last Government said by 2050 agriculture must reduce its methane emissions by between 24 and 47 percent. That\u2019s not a business plan, that\u2019s not a target; it\u2019s a hope that they can sort it out later on. How about we come up with exactly what agriculture needs to do and then work with them, not tax them, but work with them to achieve that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ENumber two, we said next year we\u2019ll stand up a system for on-farm measurement of methane. So the Labour Government previously said \u201CFrom 1\u00A0January we will tax you, but we haven\u2019t even set up the system to know how much methane you are producing to measure so we can work out what the tax would be. So we\u2019ll just chuck you into the ETS.\u201D Well, we won\u2019t do that; we\u2019ll deliver on it next year. We\u2019ve said a pricing system set up by 2030, and a pricing system, a price of tax is used for one of two things: it\u2019s used so that you will change behaviour. The problem is, with what the Labour Government did, the behaviour they want to change is there\u2019s no farming as a consequence because they\u2019re not the tools, and their systems are not there to allow farmers to reduce emissions without reducing production\u2014i.e., closing down farms\u2014then that tax is actually just putting people out of business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re also doing is saying we\u2019re going to invest much, much more in the research and development. And if you go and talk to our scientists in New Zealand, they are developing the solutions that New Zealand farmers and the world\u2019s farmers will use to reduce emissions, reduce methane, produce the same amount or less\u2014i.e., becoming much more efficient. And we announced $400 million and will continue with a lot more focus on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe final thing I guess I want to say is, yes, we have disbanded He Waka Eke Noa\u2014because it was dead; there was no partnership. The farming sector worked tirelessly over many years to come up with solutions, and the previous Government, in part with Labour, but, largely, the Green Party that come to this Parliament and lecture everybody and said, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t accept that, we\u2019ve got a better idea.\u201D\u2014and, therefore, it\u2019s that point that they drove a great big diesel tractor through the middle of the so-called partnership and destroyed it. And so, yes, it\u2019s gone, because it doesn\u2019t exist anymore. In part, though, in its replacement, we\u2019ve established a pasture sector group with just those that represent methane\u2014i.e., pasture farmers, to find enduring solutions. Number one, they\u2019re committed to reducing emissions; number two, they\u2019re committed to doing it without reducing production; and, number three, the Opposition is right\u2014we are going to work with them to achieve that because it is important for New Zealand and also it\u2019s important for our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAt the Fieldays a week or so ago, the Labour Party turned up and said, \u201CWe are creating the red band group. And what we\u2019re going to do is going to work with farmers, we\u2019re going to cooperate with farmers, and we\u2019re going to listen to you because we care about you, farmers.\u201D\u2014the Labour Party in Opposition. And the first thing they\u2019ve done, they left their Red Bands that were shining at the door and they walked in here and said they are voting against this because farmers are bad people and they want to tax them. And I can say to members of the Labour Party, you shouldn\u2019t have spent your own money on those Red Bands because you wasted that money. If you actually support agriculture, you would be supporting this in first reading so the committee can have a full discussion and debate against it, but, oh no, you want to tax them out of existence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00228225686437394142a547de4caa667745\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228225686437394142a547de4caa667745\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker\u2014a lot to respond to from that last speech. But I want to acknowledge the role of my parents in my thinking about both the rural economy and the environment. Because I have a mother who grew up in many rural areas throughout both islands\u2014sorry to Stewart Island; both the main islands\u2014and tells me all the time, \u201CRachel, make sure you\u2019re not being mean to farmers.\u201D That is one side of my growing up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe other side, I have my father who is a historian, and a rural historian, who gets very excited about different types of grass that have grown over many years in this country and the type of sheep that feed on that grass and where we export to on refrigerated boats. So I am not from a rural upbringing at all, but I do come from this place. And, of course, most people in the House will know that I care very deeply about the environment and the very privileged position to be Labour\u2019s environmental spokesperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, I care very deeply about our climate. Because, of course, if we have all of the terrible things that we know can happen with climate change, if we do not reduce our emissions, we know that we get more of the storm events, but we also know there comes sea-level rise, there comes changes to our climate of where different crops and the like can grow as well\u2014so it\u2019s extraordinarily important. It\u2019s also extraordinarily important for our biodiversity. If we have a climate that changes too drastically, then our native indigenous species will go extinct, and that is not something that I want to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo, in that context, why is that relevant to talking about this bill removing the backstop for agricultural emissions? It\u2019s very clear. This bill amends the Climate Change Response Act, and that Climate Change Response Act happened before I was a member of this House, and parties agreed that we need to reduce our climate emissions. Not only do we have to adapt but we also have to decrease emissions. That is decarbonisation, and those emissions are across gases. So we say \u201Cdecarbonisation\u201D but we are not just talking about carbon; we are also talking about methane and nitrous oxide and some fluorides and other gases as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve all agreed that that has to happen. There\u2019s a difference in opinion of how half of those emissions, being agricultural emissions, are reduced. We know that the last Government worked very hard\u2014and I\u2019m sitting next to the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, who worked very hard with the rural sector to try and work out a way through so that we can reduce those agricultural emissions. What happened is that there was a backstop in the Act, so that if that hard work and progress did not result in an agreement for a change, then there was a backstop so that the emissions were in the emissions trading scheme (ETS).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, what this bill does, of course, is remove that backstop. And we\u2019ve heard from the members opposite that they have a plan. They have a plan to revise methane science. That is not a plan. They have a plan that maybe they\u2019re going to have a pricing system by 2030. And, if that is the case\u2014that there is going to be work towards a pricing system\u2014then what is the problem with including a backstop in this ETS? They could amend the backstop, they could change the date, but that\u2019s not here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAnd this is all in the context of the $3 billion of cuts to climate emission reducing projects. This is in the context of the CERF being gone, the Climate Emergency Reduction Fund. This is in the context of the Spatial Planning Act being repealed and the Natural and Built Environments Act being repealed\u2014all pieces of legislation that try to do much better planning to reduce those emissions. But that\u2019s not happening, and agricultural emissions are not being reduced either. This is a shameful thing to be happening. This Government has no plan and I condemn this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2b614f636214b1fa2b807fc00794493\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2b614f636214b1fa2b807fc00794493\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. As chair of the Environment Committee, I\u2019m looking forward to having a full select committee process around this piece of legislation. As the previous member, the Hon Rachel Brooking, has just said, there are differing views. But on this side of the House, we trust our farmers. We take our commitments to climate change both domestically and internationally very seriously. I\u2019m looking forward to hearing what submitters have to say in the select committee and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00227cf42cb26b4b4870aa0817d80c0702c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cf42cb26b4b4870aa0817d80c0702c8\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is a bill which takes New Zealand backwards, back to a time when we had no leadership on the Government meeting its obligations internationally to climate change and no pride in the role that New Zealand plays on the international stage of leadership as a small island nation in the Pacific and doing our bit for our Pacific neighbours to stop the effects of climate change, which are affecting us and our closest partners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a disappointing and embarrassing piece of legislation, which takes us back to a time when it was not the role of Ministers of Cabinet to lead our agricultural sector to do the best they can possibly do, where it was not the role of Ministers of Cabinet to get out and have those conversations with our great farmers to do better and to plan for the future and to act in a way where their responsibility and the responsibility that they take to care for the environment, which we are so proud of, is well rewarded. No, they\u2019ve gone for the lowest common denominator here. They\u2019ve gone for a solution, in this bill, which represents stepping back into the worst players in the market getting rewarded and those who have done their best, those who we are most proud of in our agricultural sector, are being punished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI say it takes leadership, because I have watched the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor do exactly that\u2014get out and have those hard conversations with the sector and earn their respect for that, and have a partnership that actually was getting us somewhere where great agricultural sector players were doing really well out of working closely with Government and making those arrangements happen, because they know that in 10 years from now and 20 years from now and 30 years from now, our agricultural sector depends on us honouring those commitments that New Zealand has internationally to our climate change goals and being the greenest, best performing sector that we can possibly be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve seen Ministers on this side of the House making hard decisions about the way that the Government prioritises our impact on climate change. I\u2019ve seen things like the Climate Emergency Reduction Fund that the Hon Rachel Brooking talked about being used to make targeted investments in those sectors to help them improve their performance in emissions and make sure that we are planning for the future, because it does have to be Government alongside industry in this. We all want Government to be partnering with those people in the industry making decisions about our total emissions profile, and we know we can\u2019t do that as Government alone. That\u2019s the kind of leadership I\u2019m talking about, and that\u2019s not what we are seeing here in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo what is this bill? Well, it\u2019s a clear indication to anyone watching today that the Government has no plan to address the impacts of agricultural emissions on climate. On one hand, they want us to believe that they will use the emissions trading scheme, which is a great scheme, to improve our emissions, but, on the other hand, they won\u2019t do anything to help the agricultural sector become a part of that. So we have this tool now which is a dead duck in the water, because, really, it doesn\u2019t apply to some sectors and it doesn\u2019t apply to the sectors it needs to most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe have a tool here which was world-leading. The emissions trading scheme is something we can all be proud of and is something which has been borrowed by a number of other jurisdictions and used to great effect overseas. But there\u2019s always been this outstanding question of how agricultural emissions are going to be included in that or included in another market mechanism similar to that. We have now taken this away in this bill. There is no further forward momentum for those leaders in the sector to be able to draw on and bring people with them. Instead, we go back to a system where those people who do not see it as their obligation to care for the environment and do not see it as their obligation to do their part for the rest of the sector are the winners here. And that is bad decision making by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Government are leaving farmers in the dark when they desperately need something clear about the road ahead. We need a proper policy which outlines where we are going with this and that allows us a cross-partisan way of having this conversation. They are doing everything they can to delay taking action on climate change with this kind of move, and it\u2019s the wrong side of the debate to be on, because when we look back at this, we will see this legislation for what it is, which is hurting New Zealand\u2019s reputation on the world stage, which is hurting New Zealand\u2019s agricultural sector, which is hurting our exports, and which is hurting those farmers who are doing a great job now. I\u2019m disappointed about this bill, I\u2019m sad to see it progressing in the House, and I do not commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u002271bc9e07b5bc41eca670285ed44924f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271bc9e07b5bc41eca670285ed44924f5\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This bill is great news to New Zealand farmers, to the 360,000 New Zealanders that are employed in the sector, to the 70,000 businesses that are associated with it. New Zealand farmers are already the most carbon-efficient producers per unit of product in the world. Why would you penalise them by putting them in the emissions trading scheme when there\u2019s no viable mitigations? That\u2019s what the other side of the House would have had happen\u2014reduce production here, resulting in that same production being driven overseas. Net result: increased global emissions and a poorer New Zealand. Our commitment is to keep our farmers farming, keep them doing what they do best, which is growing food, providing jobs, earning over 80 percent of our export income. That\u2019s how we pay our bills. Our commitment is to also work with the sector, to provide the tools that are viable, to allow them to reduce their emissions while allowing them to keep the lights on. We back our farmers\u2014we always have and we always will. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221459f23c81d04e82881e8a5c64bbfbfe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000742\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000743\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 68, Noes 55.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c71beeb6c21342e19931b444c37c9669\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill be considered by the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 1November2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222beb2eb00ece4dc68a4e84b6a5f7fe97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222beb2eb00ece4dc68a4e84b6a5f7fe97\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d18484046d74f4ba09538b32ceea225\u0022\u003EInstruction to Primary Production Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220d902fdedfcd405e8370557045495a10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d902fdedfcd405e8370557045495a10\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the \u00A0\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e47554514d149e68573f5656846680b\u0022\u003EForests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4b2528278984d8c94e1bd5671717af3\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002291bca1f881bb4c45a2330ebe6f3eac57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291bca1f881bb4c45a2330ebe6f3eac57\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224086513668a5415989c80e3d673ba57a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224086513668a5415989c80e3d673ba57a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022868a73d89b194ebcbbbd7e1da288e9b2\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s my privilege to bring this bill to the House. This bill supports the Government\u2019s goal of getting New Zealand back on track through removing unwanted regulatory burden and making it easier for people to just get on with running their businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill will ensure that the sector is not bogged down with unnecessary red tape. Forestry, including wood processing, is the country\u2019s fourth largest exporter. Over the past few years, forestry has been hit by a perfect storm of falling sales to China, extreme weather, a collapse in carbon prices, and a weak economy and further regulatory burden. Passing these amendments into law as fast as possible has been an early policy priority for the forestry portfolio. A mandatory registration system for log traders and forestry advisers adds unnecessary compliance costs on to forest operators, has no purpose, and delivers no meaningful improvement in outcomes. Progressing this bill is one part of a wider forestry work programme that will restore confidence and certainty to forestry, support further investment, and contribute towards rebuilding the economy and getting it working for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe bill that originally brought in the registration system in 2020 has not achieved its intended outcome. These changes were brought in at a time when there was a perceived need to ensure greater professionalism and give more transparency to support equitable trading of logs, however, requiring a mandatory registration system is no longer needed and has only added cost to the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Institute of Forestry operates a voluntary system of registration for individuals providing forestry services. This voluntary system enables a professional industry standard without the need for regulation, and I consider this to be a good pathway for forestry advisers to be registered. The bill acknowledges the extensive work of the industry to create best practice guides and to update practices where knowledge evolves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThere are some key parts to the bill that I want to draw the House\u2019s attention to: firstly, the removal of the mandatory registration system or reporting requirements that have been put on our forestry sector. This removal of the system and associated fees and levies means the sector will be able to keep more of their hard-earned money, driving growth into forestry and wood processing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also proposing, through the bill, to refund all fees and levies that were paid by log traders and forestry advisers to the Ministry for Primary Industries to become registered. Registered log traders and forestry advisers gain nothing from the system, and I want to signal that this Government values the work they do and that we trust them to continue driving investment in growth in the forestry and wood processing sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAs for the legal harvest assurance scheme, this has full Government support. This system will provide market assurance and signals to the world that New Zealand supports setting international standards for timber legality. This legislation aligns with our ambitions of doubling export value in the forestry sector over the next decade. The legal harvest legislation was passed just a year ago but will only commence once it has been enabled through secondary legislation, given that it relies on the definition of a log trader located in the part of the Act proposed to be repealed. I have made a technical change in the bill before us to ensure that the requirement to register for legal harvest is retained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s essential that the development of the legal harvest assurance scheme is fit for purpose and does not add unnecessary compliance costs to forestry businesses. To ensure this, and that the system meets market access requirement, full engagement with the sector and trading partners is needed. I\u2019m therefore proposing in the bill that the commencement date for the legal harvest assurance system be amended to August\u00A02027. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EWhilst the system is being implemented, I\u2019ll ensure that the export of wood products to markets is supported through existing interim solutions, and I anticipate that these solutions will remain acceptable to the markets they have been negotiated with throughout this time. Amending this commencement date also does not prevent the system from being brought into effect sooner by Order in Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThis is only a small bill in the context of the House, and I\u2019ve touched on the key components. However, for the forestry sector, this bill will be important for bringing back autonomy to those providing essential services for the forestry sector, as well as having important cost savings for forest businesses. As I\u2019ve said, this is only the beginning of a wider forestry work programme that will boost sector confidence and continue to grow investment in the forestry and wood processing sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ECan I thank my colleagues in the coalition Government from New Zealand First and ACT for their support, and also the Labour Party for working with us to ensure that we\u2019re able to bring this into place as quickly as possible, so that more people don\u2019t need to register on 1\u00A0July this year. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00226067bc2e1586488ea1de919e46dc5b3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226067bc2e1586488ea1de919e46dc5b3a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00223ea21e7ac63240fe9b0fa8779018ec17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ea21e7ac63240fe9b0fa8779018ec17\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I also endorse the words of the Minister, the Hon Todd McClay, when we think about the forestry sector and the impact it\u2019s taken and absorbed over a number of years, certainly in my time in Parliament, and my mind right now casts to the East Coast and the Hawke\u2019s Bay, and the East Coast, knowing full well of the long forestry history, the long forestry growth that happens on the East Coast and the impact that this devastating weather event will have on them. I do want to support the words of the Minister and say that, in order for the forestry sector to continue to thrive into the future, this particular bill is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt is important that, as we look towards the support of the sector moving forward, we make sure that the right levers are in place to ensure the forestry sector will continue to grow. It is a big part of our economy. It is a big part of making sure, in small places and rural places around the country, places like where I\u2019m from in Te Tai Tokerau, where forestry does play a large part, that, one, we can continue to support the endeavours of those who are in forestry, and, two, we can also look towards incentivising those who want to get into forestry, by removing some of the burdens and some of the bureaucracy that might come with the forestry sector and is inhibiting those who wish to get into forestry. We also must make sure that there are a number of protections in place, and I want to acknowledge the Minister for reaching out over the past one or two months\u2014four to eight weeks\u2014to discuss this particular matter. It would be remiss of me if we didn\u2019t go and contact the local forestry councils, those who are key stakeholders in the sector, to make sure that this is exactly how we can support them to make sure that the forestry sector thrives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important to remember that this particular bill was put in place, initially led by the Hon Shane Jones, when the Labour coalition Government came to power in 2017. He did a lot of work with the sector to make sure that, as more forests were coming online to be harvested and those logs ultimately exported, we could make sure there were safeguards in place to ensure that cowboys didn\u2019t take advantage of those who didn\u2019t have the skill level or didn\u2019t have the experience to be able to trade their logs offshore. There was a number of so-called cowboys in the industry at the time, which is why the Hon Shane Jones brought this particular bill to the House. The Minister after the Hon Shane Jones, the Hon Stuart Nash, ushered this bill through, and, ultimately, it landed with me as the last forestry Minister in the Labour Government of the last term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EDuring that entire time, we continued to work with the sector to ask whether or not the changes that were implemented under the Hon Shane Jones met what they were intended for, and despite the good intentions\u2014and why I want to be very clear here, though\u2014that onus was put back on the sector to come to us about what might work for them. That was the predecessor to this bill. That\u2019s what we\u2019re repealing here today, because, after a number of years with that particular regime in place, as the Minister has already described, it didn\u2019t meet its intention. So, with the support from the Minister and the sector, we want to, on this side of the House, as part of the Labour Party, make sure that we can continue to support the forestry sector into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EHowever, I will be very clear and put on the record here today that we still look towards continuing a strong forestry sector, one that will continue to respect the growers, respect the harvesters, respect the workers, and respect those that process wood locally. What we can\u2019t keep having is thousands and thousands of logs just sitting at the ports here in Wellington, Tauranga, and Auckland. What we had endeavoured to do was to make sure we could process locally, and that was part of the solution to support those who were harvesting their forests who didn\u2019t want to send their logs offshore\u2014that we could process those locally, providing local economies local jobs, making sure that we could stop having logs traveling up and down the country on the roads and they could be processed locally and even manufactured and sold locally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo we want to make sure that we put on the record that Labour still believes in that: making sure that we can process our logs locally and that we\u2019re not exporting all of the logs that are grown here in Aotearoa New Zealand. Why? Because we believe it supports our economies, we believe it supports rural towns up and down this country, and we want to make sure that forestry continues to thrive into the future. We\u2019ll make sure we put that on the record through the length of this debate. We support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u002207452edb429e4e63b0ce2456bf108c55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207452edb429e4e63b0ce2456bf108c55\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Well, I\u2019m hearing a serious flip-flop\u2014a flip-flop of the coalition Government and of my Labour colleagues\u2014because this repeal right here undermines the good work of my Matua Shane Jones and the work of the officials of Te Uru R\u0101kau. Almost four years since this legislation was put in place, we now have a coalition Government that undermines the good work of Matua Shane, who knew that there were cowboys, who knew that we had vulnerable landowners\u2014those forest owners who were being taken advantage of by advisers who didn\u2019t adhere to a registration. That\u2019s why the register was set up. Moumou ng\u0101 mahi o Matua Shane\u2014moumou ng\u0101 mahi o Matua Shane. And while Minister McClay laughs, it\u2019s really disappointing, because it would be good to know what evaluation took place in the repeal of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWe attended the meeting as forest owners, we attended the meeting as stakeholders and those in industry, and, as I sat in the consultation in Kerikeri, it was a good, robust discussion between the advisers, us as forest owners, and the administrators, coming together to agree that \u201CActually, yes, we do need a register. We do need regulation.\u201D. It was only four years ago that Matua Shane stood in this House to shepherd in this legislation that provided informed and transparent means for us, as the land owners and the foresters, to be able to engage with professionals who were impartial in order to give us good advice, because at that time, as my whanaunga colleague Peeni Henare has shared, there were cowboys in the sector, and we were vulnerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIn July 2020, in the third reading, Matua Shane Jones stood in the House and he said that not all log-mongers historically have been rascals, but far too many have enjoyed, to the detriment of the good name of our industry, a laissez-faire approach to the way with which they had engaged with us. So this Government is anti-transparency and anti-regulation, because our Matua Shane\u2014the Minister\u2014brought this legislation through the Whare in order to support us so that we could access good, solid advice at the time. Now, the regulation is straightforward. It\u2019s only four years in place. I can\u2019t see an evaluation, apart from some opinions where there have been no further hui. I can\u2019t see any hui with M\u0101ori land owners on this. Has the Minister engaged with te iwi M\u0101ori? Regulation was required for the industry to ensure that we were being given the quality advice that we needed, and Matua Shane shared in 2020 that real estate agents have a register, so why can\u2019t the forestry advisers have a register? That\u2019s what Matua Shane shared in this Whare. Give it a chance\u2014give it a chance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow that we\u2019ve got this flip-flop going back on the work of Matua Shane, we\u2019re going to lose the opportunity in the sector and in the industry to continue that mahi tahi to ensure that we are getting the quality advice that we needed, because, to be fair, we have had some wh\u0101nau who have been used to the detriment through the poor advice that they garnered before these regulations came into place. That was the benefit. As a landowner, when you\u2019re seeking to harvest or you\u2019re wanting to plan your forest, you can check that the adviser coming to your table is registered. At the time when this was a voluntary scheme, only 10 to 12 percent of forestry advisers were registered\u201410 to 12 percent\u2014because when it was voluntary, nobody cared. They didn\u2019t adhere to standards, and, in fact, there was so much work done in that space to bring the sector on board, the submission process was not rushed. We had meetings, we had webinar, we had a M\u0101ori land owners\u2019 wananga, and a full committee sat and heard submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThis is going to be a rushed process. As I can see, we have the coalition Government and my Labour colleagues going to usher this through quickly, and yet we won\u2019t even get a select committee process so that we can hear from the sector and we can hear from the forest owners. It would be good to hear from the voice of our people, but we\u2019re getting this pushed through under urgency. I think that\u2019s part of the moumou for Matua Shane, and the moumou of coming from Tai Tokerau and only spending last night with forest owners who shared, \u201CWell, why are they doing this?\u201D, and I said, \u201CI don\u2019t know.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203ba8f66368d4c3e8a9f193524914394\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. Please just finish the sentence, as then we can move on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220959f1b0232b4bceb26c749c380fe9f3\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. The Green Party oppose this legislation and will pursue a full process. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00220c9d597f9c694d198e32cf7595b2d5b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c9d597f9c694d198e32cf7595b2d5b7\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of the ACT Party, and we are supporting the first reading of the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EI was listening to the previous contributor, H\u016Bhana Lyndon, and I can see that the member is saying that something was done at one point and it was considered that that was the right thing to do so now we cannot change our position. That is not right. We have to assess things on an ongoing basis. At any point, if you realise that something is not working, we must change that, and that is what this bill about. Yes, the original bill, which this bill is repealing, was passed in 2020, and some of the regulations commenced in August\u00A02022, but we know that over-burdening businesses with regulations doesn\u2019t work, and the forestry sector is no different from other businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAs we know, the forestry sector brings huge revenue for us. It\u2019s the fourth-largest export sector for us, and this Government wants to increase our export revenue\u2014we actually want to double it by 2030. So we can double that only by supporting businesses. We want to see that businesses are able to do the things that they are supposed to do rather than just ticking some boxes and complying with unnecessary requirements. That is what this bill does. It gets rid of some of the compliances that we have enforced on the forestry sector and also forestry advisers. We want them to be able to do the work and produce the revenue for New Zealand and to support the lifestyle that we enjoy here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it gets rid of the requirement of the register. That is, under the previous legislation, a registration system was set up where registered people were required to provide information, including their personal information. This bill will actually revoke all that requirement once it has gone through Parliament. That information that has been collected will be archived and will be secured from further use, which is important to note. Also, the levies and fees that the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) has been collecting will be refunded. Once the bill commences, if anything is due at that date, that will be waived by MPI. These are some of the changes that are really important to support the forestry sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EOn this side, we really want to get rid of all the red tape and unnecessary burden on businesses. We even have the new Minister for Regulation, the Hon David Seymour. So the ACT Party is really keen to get rid of unnecessary regulations and unnecessary burdens that the previous Government has imposed on businesses. We want to see that businesses are able to thrive, businesses are able to support the economy, and that is what the ACT Party wants to do. That\u2019s why the ACT Party supports this bill and commends this bill to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u00222e73d075b7914f35860615f08f56d6d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e73d075b7914f35860615f08f56d6d3\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak this afternoon, and, particularly, it is a pleasure to hear from H\u016Bhana Lyndon, my whanaunga from across the House, from Ng\u0101tiwai, for those words that were unexpected to hear of support of matua Shane\u2014unexpected but delightfully received. It would just be a wonderful thing if you could also share that support on the fast-track bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221961ad0030be4dfa8bc6417b7d6735b2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s important to remember, for members, to stand and call, otherwise we might miss something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u00228b7f0ae7a2b74a95ba10fe8f24150161\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b7f0ae7a2b74a95ba10fe8f24150161\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Ng\u0101 mihi e te P\u012Bka, he nui ng\u0101 pire i te rangi nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EE t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u0101 Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te rangi nei, \u0101, e kaha whakah\u0113 ana i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire kua tae mai i r\u014D P\u0101remata i te rangi nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker, there are many bills today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI stand to give voice to the statements of the M\u0101ori Party today, and we strongly oppose this bill that has arrived in the House today.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThe Forestry (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill provides for the disestablishment of the registration system and all associated requirements for log traders and forestry advisers and the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) to refund any fees or levies paid to MPI under the scheme and waive any fees or levies that are due to not be paid on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EAlignment with Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori tikanga: we oppose this bill to our mana motuhake. According to the departmental disclosure statement, M\u0101ori were not consulted and there is no information available on the impacts of this repeal on M\u0101ori. When it comes to our whenua, M\u0101ori should always be partners in the decision-making process. We oppose this bill due to our mana \u014Drite. The registration system was put in place to allow equity of access to timber for both domestic processors and exporters. Its repeal will be inequitable for timber processors in Aotearoa. We oppose this bill for mana mokopuna. This bill will remove the requirement for forestry advisers, log traders, and exporters to work to nationally agreed practice standards. Less standards means less protections for our whenua and our tangata whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThe regulations that are being removed will be detrimental to oranga t\u0101ngata and oranga whenua. M\u0101ori should at least be consulted on all matters relating to our whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EKoin\u0101 taku takoha ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. [This is my contribution to this bill. I acknowledge all of us in the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022470b750453854fb6b9663b7f222ec841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022470b750453854fb6b9663b7f222ec841\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E This is a great bill, isn\u2019t it? I love this, and I do want to acknowledge the support across the House from my colleague on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, as we should, because you know, forestry is our fourth largest exporter in New Zealand. We have to be supporting them to power them up to get the best competitive advantage that we can. This bill is about getting rid of red tape for our forestry sector. Whatever the intentions may have been a few years ago when it first came in, ultimately, the end result was more red tape for forestry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EWe are a Government, as this Parliament should be, that listens, that learns, and that can improve and ultimately will get rid of the red tape to get New Zealanders ahead. It\u2019s about restoring autonomy to those that provide essential services to our forestry. It is signalling, I think, the wider intent of this Government to support our forestry sector, to grow investment in forestry, in fact, to grow our economy, and, for good measure, to get New Zealand back on track. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022daacf439a1794b47a77059ce878fd312\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022daacf439a1794b47a77059ce878fd312\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E A couple of questions I have: firstly, where\u2019s Matua Shane? Where\u2019s Shane?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b035e7635d754ec9b0e768638a9e2210\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not appropriate to refer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a54763df7144cbcb6d5e060c7641c6f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, sorry\u2014he\u2019s in the House, but I hope he\u2019s on the speaking list, because, actually, I was an enthusiastic supporter of this piece of legislation when it was brought in. A ute and a laptop was literally all you needed to trade logs. We had small forests owners, we had small investors, and we had small processors who were getting ripped off by people who would come and make an offer, people didn\u2019t have good advice, and Matua Shane rightfully knew that we had to bring in a registration system so that people who were advising people new to the sector had some kind of credibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn fact, for the fourth-largest export sector in our country, it is absolutely essential that we have credible systems in place. So we are going to support this. But the question is, can we get guarantees from the Government that they will ensure that logs that are harvested come from areas free of disease? Because if that disease is identified offshore by any of our markets\u2014say, India, for example\u2014the risks are that those logs and our log trade will be shut down overnight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that we are now seeing increasing obligations around deforestation. There are countries around the world that simply cut down their forests, do not replant, and there\u2019s growing concern about biodiversity, about carbon sequestration, all the rest of it. So there\u2019s an obligation to ensure that the sustainably managed and harvested forests that produce the vast majority of radiata in our country, just what we\u2019re talking about here, are actually replanted and run in a sustainable manner. If we can\u2019t prove that and we don\u2019t know that the logs that are going on the ship or they\u2019re going to a processing system have come from a sustainably harvested forest, then we too could be shut out of international markets. Then there\u2019s the one of ensuring confidence for those who invest in or own small forests that they can be protected against road traders, someone with a ute and a laptop, because that\u2019s what we\u2019ll be going back to now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOne of the primary drivers for the Hon Shane Jones\u2014I guess, the obligation to place on these traders some credibility, some systems that offered some certification\u2014was to ensure that the processing sector in our country, if they were signed up to a contract for supply, indeed had that supply delivered. These are companies\u2014small, some of them are larger\u2014that are employing New Zealanders up and down our country to produce the high-quality timber that we all rely on for our housing market. The Government says it wants to build more houses; it will need more timber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhen the log price goes up\u2014and, at the moment, it\u2019s low; the export log prices. So there\u2019s lots of timber available for local processing. When the log price goes back up, which we hope it does, then the ability for those sawmills to compete for logs gets constrained and the traders will simply shift the logs to the highest place. If there\u2019s no comeback on them, if there\u2019s no registration, no certification, no proof of integrity or credibility, then the risk is that those rogue traders, as they did in the past, will just shift the logs to the highest market and leave our local sawmills at risk. So the question to the Government in passing this\u2014and the costs are actually relative to this being the fourth-biggest export sector in our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe cost for individual traders was not that great. These are people dealing with millions of dollars, coming and going in terms of logs and supply. The money that the Government has decided it will hand back\u2014like it is to landlords, it is now handing it back to some log traders\u2014probably won\u2019t be that great, but it will leave a gap in terms of Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 ability to provide oversight in this crucial area. This is a really important area out of our economy. It\u2019s a growing one. People are looking to invest in the forestry sector. The Government needs to give them an assurance, those small forest owners, that they will be protected, given that the passage of this legislation will remove one of the obligations around registration that provided that protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1694eaf11d447a6aeba779213f90085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1694eaf11d447a6aeba779213f90085\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, and I stand in support of the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022a598e8cc44914cd2b878b8bc4790cdac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a598e8cc44914cd2b878b8bc4790cdac\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to take a call on this bill. This is a bill which Labour supports, but it\u2019s moving through the House\u2019s urgency now through all stages so it\u2019s really important for parliamentarians around this House to be able to appreciate the decisions that are being made here and also for the Minister to take full responsibility for those concerns, which my colleague the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor has raised. Because this is an incredibly important sector for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe want our foresters to do well. I came to this House from a role in a large corporate group which owns the Woodhill Forest, and that forest was an important strategic asset not only for that group and its intergenerational commitments to those people who are shareholders in it, but also to the wider Auckland region. The economic impact of that forest, the way that it is used\u2014it also has a big tourism element in the forest\u2014is all really important as part of the economic engine room of that region. So we want these businesses to absolutely thrive and it\u2019s important that they aren\u2019t burdened with unnecessary regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHowever, when we have a piece of legislation like this going through all stages, we need to know from the Minister that he\u2019s got the right kind of safeguards, the right kind of checks in place to make sure that those businesses that will be now operating without the oversight of something like the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) are fully equipped to take into account those considerations that the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor has raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s going to be really useful for us in the committee stage to hear from the Minister on his intentions around the conduct of those businesses and to make sure, particularly around those questions of rogue trading, that we\u2019re not going to see that in our market. Although I think it is really important to acknowledge here that the sector has changed since that legislation was brought in, and so we have some comfort there around the kind of operators that we\u2019re seeing in New Zealand forests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also want to make sure that the House knows of Labour\u2019s intention here to always be scrutinising the forestry industry in relation to those interests of M\u0101ori forest owners. We know that forestry is a big part of the $40 billion M\u0101ori economy. M\u0101ori are very over-invested in forestry and so anything that would damage the performance of that sector and the ability of that sector to return gains to the shareholders who are actually iwi members\u2014many of whom have benefited from settlements which involved Crown forest which has been returned to their iwi\u2014that is of utmost importance to the Labour Party and is something we will watch closely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe know that the M\u0101ori forestry sector is also poised to do incredibly well in the next two decades, and so we want to make sure that this House is enabling legislation which gives a real framework for that. We want to see a forestry sector that changes; that delivers good jobs, highly skilled jobs, in our regions and in places like North Auckland for the Woodhill Forest. We need to make sure that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aad1cecf1b24867817cbc826c871092\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Safe jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b0df9b9e2374291be85efcddf278857\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014exactly: safe jobs that have the right kind of checks and safeguards around them and the right kind of oversight from something like MPI and from a health and safety perspective where everyone in the sector is empowered to sort of unlock the economic potential of that asset.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori as investors in that\u2014whether it\u2019s through the post-settlement governance entities that have received Crown forestry assets through the settlements, or whether it\u2019s through their own investments in rural forests like, say, the Mangatu Blocks that have had, since the 1930s, a policy of buying back forestry land out of private hands to restore their tino rangatiratanga over the realm of kaitiakitanga. In both of those scenarios, we want to make sure that they are not only able to realise the economic gains out of their forestry but also to realise the gains for future generations of owning the whenua, of having a relationship with it, and tying up into commercial agreements which are not advantageous to those iwi is something we would be concerned about. Because iwi members need to be able to not only realise the commercial gains that forestry allows for but also the access to their land, the access to their hunting rights, access to their w\u0101hi tapu [sacred sites] which are often in these forestry areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo working with good foresters who also know those obligations and who are interested in their obligations in New Zealand\u2014when, of course, Madam Speaker, you will know that many foresters are overseas-based, many of them are US operating here in the New Zealand market. We need to make sure that our provisions in here that we decide on are the kind of empowering legislation that M\u0101ori need to realise the benefits of their forestry asset. With that, and with no notes, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d82ec04c9ee640ae895199c078a84fe2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d82ec04c9ee640ae895199c078a84fe2\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E With no notes, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000818\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000819\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 102, Noes 21.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225e99c77e01cd44c6b4dd32bef3e7a376\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e99c77e01cd44c6b4dd32bef3e7a376\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022795679599bd64b70b729a95ed91b0958\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022de936d71c7cd457ab34f1a346e3e0333\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de936d71c7cd457ab34f1a346e3e0333\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI would like to again acknowledge the forestry sector and the amount of change they\u2019ve experienced over the past six years. There have been, you know, different messages that have come from Government in the form of the emissions trading scheme reviews, and the piling on of additional rules and regulations have affected them. It\u2019s made the investment environment very uncertain for foresters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EForestry has a very long investment time frame. From planting to harvest, it can take over 30 years for individuals and businesses to capitalise on their investment. I want to send a clear signal that it is worth investing in forestry, and the Government supports afforestation to boost exports, grow, and to help meet our emissions reduction and adaptation objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe problem we\u2019ve had in New Zealand in recent years is that when we have a problem, even a perceived problem, we\u2019ve often attempted to fix it through more rules or regulations. This is probably a case that is no different than that. Through the repeal of the bill, and the passing of other bills since the Government took office, we\u2019re sending a very clear signal to the wider Government agencies and the general public that, actually, what we want is fewer rules but better ones, and to work with the private sector, where they\u2019re able to achieve what Government tries to sometimes\u2014they are often better placed to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe introduction of a regulation system was not the only part of these regulations. On top of the regulation system, additional regulations came into force on 1\u00A0July\u00A02024, which add yet more obligations on registered forestry advisors to record their activities and submit annual reports of those activities to the Government. Additionally, on the same date, a new levy year will commence and another annual levy will be required to be paid by the registrants. I don\u2019t see that any value has been created as a result of the log traders or forest advisers, through the system, and, therefore, these levies are not justified, nor is there a fee that they should be paid in registration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EGiven the new regulations would add further compliance costs on to the sector in July, we\u2019re seeking to repeal this legislation as quickly as possible so that the sector avoids this duplication, additional cost, and, of course, more compliance. We are repealing this legislation as effectively and efficiently as possible to avoid these initial costs on the sector but also on the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThis legislation has been supported by a very large majority in the House and by all of the coalition partners, including the Hon Shane Jones, who I\u2019ve worked very, very closely with to ensure that we get the balance right, to be in the protection but not over-regulated and burdening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI just wanted to point out, in the previous debate, the member from the Green Party asked what engagement we\u2019ve had from M\u0101ori, as I think the member of the M\u0101ori Party did. I\u2019d just like to read, and can perhaps table if necessary, a letter and email that we received from Ng\u0101 Pou a T\u0101ne, the National M\u0101ori Forestry Association, that said, \u201CT\u0113n\u0101 koe, Minita McClay. A short note from Ng\u0101 Pou a T\u0101ne in thanks for making the practical decision to repeal this unnecessary legislation. We\u2019re pleased our voice and that of the industry has prevailed. Long may this continue.\u201D That was from the chair of that organisation. So there has been ongoing engagement and discussion, and this is something that is widely supported by the forestry sector. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022351351\u0022 data-id=\u0022c80d511dc3ea49e4b649a2725d1faad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022351351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c80d511dc3ea49e4b649a2725d1faad6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So, just can I clarify, the Minister was saying that he would table that document if requested?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a33e4305294f98936f84e55f3b7eca\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I said what I\u2019ve said: if necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022351351\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed287b86714c4145ac28ef20ec2cd760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022351351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed287b86714c4145ac28ef20ec2cd760\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so if requested\u2014you\u2019re not asking to table it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4f2e51f45f4424baf9d2e56e6d0b3f9\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022301b58a35d48414aaa2cd3c21b6827bf\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00225c895a6bfbd248e08bce045e9bf67a4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c895a6bfbd248e08bce045e9bf67a4e\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Could I seek for the letter to be tabled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f1aba2771494ee9934ce47b585d4d36\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, you can make a point of order and you can request that the Minister tables that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9cbb69d411c4f6dbcf542ec4063445a\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282278edd9bfc44a4b84d31f38f226119\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. You need to seek leave for\u2014just a moment, I\u2019ll just get the words right. I\u2019ve just clarified that\u2014I can\u2019t seek leave for someone else to do something; the Minister will have to do that voluntarily. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022130647c188774b7c9925253b170ae64a\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022868a8ac7ebaf474a8a853c84791e06f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022868a8ac7ebaf474a8a853c84791e06f6\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Speaker. I will just tidy it up so there\u2019s not information that shouldn\u2019t be in the public domain, in as far as contact details, and then I\u2019ll table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002275f48b7d91164292918264f5bfe762a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275f48b7d91164292918264f5bfe762a8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3c80368657f438fb1b0e60d3106583e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3c80368657f438fb1b0e60d3106583e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Before we all join hands and pat each other on the back about support breaking out across the House, I sat here and listened to a number of the speeches, and I thought it interesting when, over the last six years, the ACT Party took a very clear stance\u2014pro farmer\u2014to say no more farmland will be put into forestry. And I remember my matua Shane Jones saying, \u201CMore forestry is good.\u201D And so I wonder if later on in the debate, as we progress this bill through the House, we might get a far more honest view\u2014or a far more open view, I apologise, Madam Chair\u2014and a far more transparent view on whether or not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e30944108dd24e55969833340859d037\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good choice of words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eaa4abf241e4a86b64c2a8967915c85\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the relations between the coalition partners certainly indicate the words, or support the words, that were uttered by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting this bill. There are a number of things in the bill that the Minister spoke to that, of course, we\u2019ll continue to look for safeguards on, and he mentioned the date August\u00A02027. And I take his point that it is a long period of time when we look to the forestry sector for those that do the planning, those that do the planting, the growing, and, of course, the harvesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOf course, we\u2019re putting a lot of trust into the sector to ensure that those safeguards will continue to be there for those that are small operators in the system, but also those who might wish to come into the system. And I think that\u2019s an important thing to support the sector to make sure that they\u2019ve got that system right. What we did find\u2014and I speak as a former forestry Minister here\u2014was that there was a lot of frustration with the burden that was placed on those particular forest owners, forest growers, and wood harvesters with respect to some of the legislation that was put in place to make sure that we have those safeguards. But I want to be very clear that those safeguards, with respect to international trade, looked to do a number of things. One of them was to protect indigenous species so that for those who might be selling indigenous species offshore illegally, we can keep a track of these things. We can make sure that through clear registration, knowing who\u2019s who in the field, knowing who is brokering these deals as we export logs from New Zealand offshore, that they weren\u2019t breaking the rules with respect to indigenous species, which are a very lucrative market right across the world in indigenous species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIn fact, I know of a number of traders from the Far North who have entered into swamp kauri or harvesting swamp kauri and have made a heck of a lot of money as they\u2019ve exported that particular timber offshore. What we don\u2019t want to see, though, is people going out and trying to raid paddocks or raid areas or raid land that they might think have those indigenous species like swamp kauri and look towards profiting offshore. That\u2019s why it was important that we have checks and balances. We\u2019re not simply saying, \u201CYes, we tried something, and it didn\u2019t work in its entirety.\u201D; we\u2019re saying, \u201CYes, this is why we did it.\u201D And it was to do a number of things, like I\u2019ve already mentioned, about protecting indigenous species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOne of the other things, too, that what we tried to do with the legislation that this bill is repealing was to make sure that\u2014we\u2019ve heard the term \u201Ccowboys\u201D in the sector here\u2014there was a code of ethics in the way that they were operating in the field. Now, not only did we want to see that with respect to the trade and trade brokers that might be involved in the forestry sector; we want to continue to see a strong code of ethics across the entire forestry sector. The Labour Party most certainly have always been very staunch about workers\u2019 rights, certainly staunch about the way that we can continue to protect workers in the field of forestry. We know that in forestry workers, the death rate is just far too high. In fact, I think it\u2019s the highest in working professions in this country. So we were trying to do far more than just specifically what this bill is repealing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt was about trying to set a good tone across the entire sector so that we have it from growth to harvest to export. And every single part of that machinery needs to be cognisant that these rules were in place for a reason. But I take the Minister and his word in our discussions that we had, and in the discussions that I too had with the wood councils, a number of them across the country who do have M\u0101ori representation on those wood councils. Recently, we were in Gisborne at the Te Tair\u0101whiti Wood Council Awards, where a number of traders, a number of growers and harvesters, had the opportunity to speak to my colleagues, and the following day, I caught up with them where they expressed an opportunity to do things better. And what we\u2019re doing here is repealing a bill, repealing a piece of legislation, with the hope that they will get it right moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe Minister has offered some safeguards. We will continue to look towards supporting and making sure that those safeguards are adhered to. We acknowledge the time that it takes in order to make sure that these filter out across the sector. So, from my perspective, I think the Minister has the timing about right with respect to August\u00A02027, which is the amendment that he\u2019s made to his bill. And it\u2019s the support of that sector that I think is going to make it even stronger for the future. Why I say that is because, as my colleague had already mentioned, at the moment, log prices are stable and low. As they rise, the market changes. And we want to make sure that everyone has an opportunity here to still be able to trade in what will be and has proven in the past to be a very lucrative export for our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnd, in order to do that, what we don\u2019t want to see is simply large owners taking over a small player in the field\u2014in particular in places on M\u0101ori land, and it\u2019s already been made clear by members across the House that M\u0101ori land under the stewardship of the stewardship of the former forestry Minister, the Hon Shane Jones, who went around to look towards land that was\u2014I can\u2019t remember the word exactly, but it was land that couldn\u2019t be used for much more. And they were used to plant and to grow trees in order to create carbon sinks as well as make sure that there was opportunity for M\u0101ori land owners, trust-land owners to be involved in forestry exports into the future. And they look for those safeguards, which is why we put in place the legislation that we did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe bill now is going to repeal that. The Minister has made clear some of the safeguards\u2014and we\u2019ve already expressed that, through the committee of the whole House, that will continue to seek those assurances to make sure that, as we go through the debate on the bill, we can come to a consensus certainly for the support that we offer as the Labour Party to this particular bill and make sure that it can be the best base for the forestry sector to grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I want to just continue to reiterate, though, that the Labour Party has always stood for manufacturing and processing wood locally. Well, I want to make that point clear. We want to, yes, support exporters\u2014of course. We want to make sure that the regime is in place to support exporters, but, as my colleague had already mentioned, when we look to build in this country, when we want to build ourselves out of a housing crisis, when we want to build more schools, it just makes more sense to have the timber locally. I always found it odd, and most members in the House will come across members in the community who will say, \u201CI find it odd we export our logs and then we purchase back processed timber.\u201D I\u2019m not the only one who says that in the House. I\u2019m sure members have experienced their constituents or the sector saying the same thing. So I want to make it very clear: we, in our time as Government, invested in that particular sector, and those are more of the opportunities that will look towards this Government in hoping that they\u2019re true to their word in order to support the forestry sector moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo, on this side of the House, the Labour Party will be supporting this bill, but we will continue to look towards the safeguards that the Minister outlined in the first reading of this\u00A0bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd4264d1bc02491586969e1d2e490c85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd4264d1bc02491586969e1d2e490c85\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Now, I\u2019m reflecting on the purpose of this legislation that is to be repealed. It was to ensure that logs grown in New Zealand and bought and sold were handled in a way that was transparent and professional. So since 6\u00A0August\u00A02023, it\u2019s been an offence to operate as a log trader or provide forestry advice without being registered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, if I can share some personal experience around the benefit as a small forest owner and administer on behalf of our shareholders, this scheme has been very beneficial for us, because we had the opportunity to engage with registered professionals to advise us on how to manage our forests, and then who to engage to finally execute the thinning that we need on our whenua. Now, we may not be big players, we may not be members of Ng\u0101 Pou a T\u0101ne, but our voice matters and we are worried, because, certainly, we have seen others who have spent far too much in gaining advice and then seeking services which actually didn\u2019t work out for them anyhow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIn Tai Tokerau last night and yesterday, I had the opportunity to sit with forest owners and other hui and talk to them about, \u201CHey, have you engaged with any forest advisers lately? Or where are you at with your thinning programme?\u201D They said, \u201CYep, it\u2019s good because we know t\u016Bturu that the person that we\u2019re engaging has the right credentials and experience to engage to support our trust.\u201D And we aren\u2019t big players\u2014no, no\u2014but we are important in terms of the building blocks of the economy of New Zealand. And, as M\u0101ori landowners, our voice does matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIn terms of the original intention of this legislation, it was to strengthen integrity; it was to provide continuous, predictable, and long-term supply of timber; and then to provide, of course, as I\u2019ve spoken to, transparency and professionalism. But also it helps us to have confidence with those that we engage. And I was thinking about the consultation meeting that I did engage with when the Minister was making the rounds in establishing this legislation, and it was robust, because we had whenua M\u0101ori, we had members of our wood council, we had advisers, and we had some whanaunga who were in the sector. And some of our whanaunga in the sector raised concerns around registration and compliance and \u201CThis is just another added burden\u201D. But, actually, in engaging with them recently, the professional learning and development that the advisers are required to engage with to keep up their registration has meant that we had confidence in the advisers, whether it be for log trading or whether it be for forestry advice in general meant that we knew t\u016Bturu that these people had the credentials and experience that we needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, in the process of consultation that Minister Jones at the time undertook with Te Uru R\u0101kau, the w\u0101nanga, the webinars, the online hui, and also the face-to-face like I participated in saw submissions come back because we had a full process. This is really fast what\u2019s happening here. But in that process we had the select committee, and the submitters came back and supported the need for continuous professional development for our advisers. In fact, 87 percent said that the records from this continuous professional development should be held centrally, and 93 percent thought that they needed to be lodged and held so that we could check the credentials of our advisers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo I mihi to the submitters who supported the need for somewhere central\u2014a bank\u2014so we could check the credentials of these people, because there\u2019s nothing worse than engaging a cowboy\u2014nothing worse than engaging a cowboy\u2014that turns up with their laptop on their truck, and then next minute it\u2019s costing you more and more in the pocket. And when it comes to your annual general meeting (AGM), when you need to stand before your people, you\u2019re held to account. I have seen many AGMs where we have been burnt as trustees who are inexperienced in the market, and we\u2019re just doing our best to make a good decision for the use of our whenua, but we had confidence because of this legislation. So, yes, I do support my matua\u2014Matua Shane\u2014for this. And I do thank him for persevering in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIf we recall the need for this legislation, and thinking about the speeches we had that took place in the House by Eugenie Sage, she stood up and she shared that there\u2019s a social licence that the industry really needs to gain back that trust within our communities. And we don\u2019t have to think too far back to our wh\u0101nau in Te Tai R\u0101whiti, and then also for myself in the back blocks Ng\u0101ti Hine when our logs fall into the waterways or clog up our roads when they fall over and we have to figure out a plan because, actually, our planting plan wasn\u2019t great. So, critical to this is good advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, I appreciate that the Minister\u2019s going to share the letter he\u2019s received from Ng\u0101 Pou a T\u0101ne\u2014great; kia ora. As a stakeholder, that\u2019s great to see that you engaged with someone, because in the official records there was \u201CNo consultation has been undertaken on the policies within this bill.\u201D So the more we learn around the consultation undertaken by the Minister and his officials for this legislation, the more we will learn in terms of what the product is that will be produced, because if we have to rely on the sector and we have to trust that they will come up with something, we know they didn\u2019t before. There was only 10 to 12 of those forest advisers, those loggers, that registered\u201410 to 12 percent. So, Matua, Tama, Wairua Tapu\u2014we\u2019re going to have to trust that they\u2019re going to come up with something. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWe know that forestry is a massive player within our economy. We know that our people benefit from the work and also there is always risk within this space. And I\u2019ve spoken to my own experience in land administration and having to face the wrath of our people at an AGM. But ultimately what I understood back in the day four years ago when the sales pitch came into our k\u0101inga was that this was about retaining the value back in our communities so that we could build our own homes from wood produced in our k\u0101inga to support our local processors. I say this because that\u2019s what I clearly heard on the day, and that\u2019s what I saw from our local processors standing up and saying \u201C\u0100e, tautoko, \u0101e.\u201D They were there.\u00A0And I appreciated the way that the industry and us as landowners came together. That was the vision that Matua Shane presented: keeping the value in our communities and building up our own industry. He said the short-term issue is how we manage slowing down the volume of logs getting harvested in Northland and we need to protect the jobs of our local people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, with this I keep thinking about building more homes, so I do welcome the discussion around what is the plan beyond here. Through this process, can the Minister present what is the vision, because from a whenua M\u0101ori perspective, we might be small players, but if we can keep our logs in Tai Tokerau or in Te Tai R\u0101whiti, and then we can put them through local processing and build local homes for our people because we know we have a shortage of homes in our k\u0101inga, then that would be a win. So I welcome the w\u0101nanga that we might have today, but continue to raise concerns around the exclusion of the people of New Zealand and the exclusion of our voice, whether we be large or small forest owners, whether we be just a subbie. Sometimes you\u2019re only small harvesters, the loggers, or even I think of some of our matua who are around who try their best, and they put in tono all the time for jobbies for our people, and they got registered so that they could have a chance with our landowners to be able to demonstrate that they could harvest or they could thin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo my tono to our Minister is to present the vision. What is the plan? Because the people of New Zealand deserve that, forest owners deserve that, whether we\u2019re big or small. And for those that have made the effort to become registered and who have complied with the need for continuous professional development, I think they need to be celebrated. And by celebrating them, they\u2019re important to the sector. And if they\u2019ve been through the rigour of registration, let\u2019s maintain that movement of getting the rest of everyone on board. So what is the solution? What is the plan? Because we can\u2019t see it right now. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u00225dced004216f4dc3912b68ff0528c8d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dced004216f4dc3912b68ff0528c8d1\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I stand in support of the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill, acknowledging the Hon Peeni Henare\u2019s comments about forestry and ACT\u2019s position on turning productive land into forest. Unfortunately, I\u2019m unable to comment on my colleague\u2019s positions on that, but maybe throughout this process you will get your answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003ELook, the ACT Party\u2019s all about cutting red tape and making it easier to do business in New Zealand. So I think that this bill strikes a good balance between eco-activity and providing employment, and I think it\u2019s a really sensible bill and I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u002250e5e31cffab4599be9648d8b35c9d94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250e5e31cffab4599be9648d8b35c9d94\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I find myself in a rather invidious position of getting up to support a bill that I was part of a party that helped bring into being. So that is politics for you. But I recall back in those, maybe, 2018-19 years when this piece of legislation came into being\u2014it was, as the previous Green speaker alluded to, a sense of tidying up the industry, taking out some cowboys. But, also, there was concern and continues to be concern about the massive opportunity costs of seeing raw logs go out from the ports without the value being captured by further processing onshore. It was thought that some of these mechanisms could help to make sure that at least the local processors got a shot at some of that supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI guess the long and the short of it is that it\u2019s a solution that didn\u2019t necessarily deal with the problem. That seems to be the outcome of this. I think, sometimes in politics, you\u2019ve got to be able to accept that you don\u2019t always get it right, and if you haven\u2019t got it right and you can try another way, then that\u2019s what you should do. So we\u2019ve taken on some wisdom from the Minister here\u2014Minister McClay\u2014who does not support this. We\u2019ve been prepared to go with him on this and accept his worldview, I guess, in terms of cutting the red tape, getting out of the way, and letting industry take care of itself a bit. So we\u2019ll see how that goes. But, I think, sometimes in politics, there\u2019s some things you\u2019re not going to die in a ditch for, and New Zealand First is not going to die in a ditch for this bill. It\u2019s a bill that hasn\u2019t probably reached its potential in terms of outcomes that we would have liked when we brought it in. So we will accept that. We will support the bill and we\u2019ll commend it through to this next stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u002212ffd558164246748615f7ff9c524608\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212ffd558164246748615f7ff9c524608\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Ng\u0101 mihi ki a koe, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tau e te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EE t\u016B ana ahau hei taima tuarua i roto i t\u0113nei Whare hei k\u014Drero ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire e kaha t\u0101mi ana i ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga, i ng\u0101 uri o te wao nui a T\u0101ne. E kaha tautokotia ana e au ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a taku tuakana nei, a H\u016Bhana, otir\u0101 i Te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki me \u014D r\u0101tou wheakoranga nui i roto i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B, i roto i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 mahi e hono ana ki t\u014D r\u0101tou ake nei iwi o Ng\u0101puhi, i roto i \u0113nei wheakoranga i roto i ng\u0101 take ahuwhenua, i ng\u0101 take e hono ana ki ng\u0101 r\u0101kau, ng\u0101 uri o T\u0101ne Mahuta.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EE t\u0101ruaruatia ana e au \u0113nei k\u014Drero n\u0101 runga an\u014D i te mea k\u0101ore an\u014D kia panoni \u014Dku whakaaro, ng\u0101 whakaaro o Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. E kaha whakah\u0113 ana m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei pire n\u0101 runga an\u014D i te mea e t\u016Bhono ana t\u0113nei pire ki t\u014D m\u0101tou mana motuhake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EE rongo k\u014Drero ana i te Minita kua whakawhiti k\u014Drero ia i te taha i te r\u014Dp\u016B o Ng\u0101 Pou a T\u0101ne. E mihi ana ki t\u0113r\u0101. E tatari ana m\u0101tou m\u014D te reta kia whakawh\u0101rikihia ki runga i te t\u0113pu r\u0101. E tatari ana m\u0101tou m\u014D t\u0113n\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D, ehake i te mea ko t\u0113tehi r\u014Dp\u016B anahe. E kaha rangona ana e m\u0101tou ko wai ng\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B, ko wai ng\u0101 iwi, ko wai ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata kua k\u014Drerotia e t\u0113nei K\u0101wana, e t\u0113nei Minita ki ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata whenua, ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata M\u0101ori ki roto i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 w\u0101hi o ng\u0101 take e t\u016Bhono ana ki a T\u0101ne Mahuta.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EE kaha whakah\u0113 ana m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei pire e hono ana ki te mana \u014Drite, n\u0101 runga an\u014D i te mea ka whai mana ng\u0101 exporters, ng\u0101 domestic processors, ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata e whai mana ana i roto i te ao o te timber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWaihoki e kaha whakah\u0113 ana m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire e hono ana ki t\u014D m\u0101tou mana mokopuna n\u0101 runga an\u014D i te mea ko t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire e t\u0101mi ana, e takahi ana i te nuku o te whenua, i t\u014D m\u0101tou nei pepeha, i te oranga whenua. N\u0101 runga an\u014D i t\u0113n\u0101, e whakah\u0113 ana m\u0101tou, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EE kaha tautokotia ana e m\u0101tou ng\u0101 wheakoranga o H\u016Bhana Lyndon i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 w\u0101hi. N\u014D reira koin\u0101 aku takoha ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Thank you, and, indeed, greetings to all of us in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI stand for a second time in this House to speak to this bill that strongly oppresses the circumstances and the descendants of the great forest of T\u0101ne. I strongly support the comments of my senior here, H\u016Bhana, indeed the Green Party and their many experiences within this one of the organisations, within this particular activity that is connected to our own iwi of Ng\u0101puhi, within these experiences in horticultural issues, and the issues related to forestry, the descendants of T\u0101ne Mahuta.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI am repeating these statements because my opinions have not changed, the opinions of the M\u0101ori Party. We strongly oppose this bill because this bill is connected to our self-determination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWe hear statements from the Minister that he has communicated with the organisation of Ng\u0101 Pou a T\u0101ne. We commend that. We are waiting for the letter to be tabled here. We are waiting for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EHowever, it is not as if there is only one organisation. We are hearing a lot about who are the organisations, who are the iwi, who are the people that have been engaged by this Government, and by this Minister with the people of the land, the M\u0101ori people within this area of the issues that are related to T\u0101ne Mahuta.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWe strongly oppose this bill that is connected to equality, because authority is afforded to the exporters, the domestic processors, and people with power within the timber sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EFurthermore, we strongly oppose this bill as it relates to the authority of our grandchildren because this bill oppresses and mistreats the breadth of the land, our expressions of identity, and the health of the land. And due to that, we, the M\u0101ori Party, strongly oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWe strongly support the experiences of H\u016Bhana Lyndon in this space. And so these are my contributions to this bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022781182e5d4394dbc88c7137346825619\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022781182e5d4394dbc88c7137346825619\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, thank you so much, Madam Speaker. When we\u2019re looking at this particular bill, there are multiple parts to this. So there are two major elements we\u2019re looking at. The first of them is the repeal of the log traders and forest advisers, and the second part is to do with the legal harvesting assurance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBefore we talk about some of these, I just want to kind of give the broader picture that when we\u2019re looking at something like forestry, we\u2019re looking at an ecosystem, at multiple perspectives, and, in the context of this House, multiple portfolios that come into play. We have also already heard from our forestry spokesperson, H\u016Bhana Lyndon, but also in this context we are going to be looking for engagement from the agriculture perspective, from the environment perspective, and, in this context, from me in a trade perspective when we are looking at the bigger picture of forestry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first thing that we were looking at\u2014the intention that was introduced a few years ago around the log traders and forestry advisers is around the standardisation and the transparency that it will provide. We have already heard from my colleague H\u016Bhana Lyndon that when we are looking at this, it is to provide small entities and small groups with the best opportunity to benefit from something like this; having that availability and the genuine personal stories that we have heard, that ability to hear and having that access and the confidence to the forestry advisers, and this is something that this particular bill will be removing. So that level of transparency is absolutely crucial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to raise\u2014and this is something that I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll tease out again in the committee stage in lieu of a select committee\u2014is around this idea, as we heard before, of thinning and harvesting. This is where the environmental component comes in really handy, and it\u2019s incredibly crucial because we have seen the danger and the harm both to our environment but also to people and to livelihoods when things are not harvested and when timber is not thinned correctly. Our heart goes out and we acknowledge every single person today who is currently suffering in the East Coast, and we also acknowledge the work that our colleagues in this House are currently doing within their respective electorates that are affected as a result of the state of emergency in the East Coast. For some of those, forestry is so important and the way that we harvest is so important for those regions, to ensure that healthy environment, that people across the board, that ecosystem we\u2019re looking at isn\u2019t going to be ruined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis is, again, something that\u2019s going to be really, really important, and to tie it into my portfolio around trade, and also in this particular case the Hon Todd McClay\u2019s other hat, other than forestry, is looking at how this system, when we are looking at the transparency and the protection and everything that this particular bill that we are repealing has in terms of our current trade agreements and particularly some of our most recent trade agreements with the EU and UK\u2014granted, these are not areas that, potentially, we are exporting some of those woods and we\u2019re looking at other forms of exports, but within those agreements there are specific requirements for environmental standards, specific requirements to environmental and labour protection. This is something that is also going to be really crucial, and I am really looking forward to the opportunity to get some clarification from the Minister during the committee stage of how, without something like this, do we ensure that the same level of protection is in place and the same level of equity for our small forestry operators will continue to be in place? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo this is something that I am looking forward to continuing discussing during the committee stage, but, unfortunately, at this stage, with the lack of information, we cannot support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002288e659e6bf6c43be89610b584f46d12c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288e659e6bf6c43be89610b584f46d12c\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I stand in support of the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill. I was reading through some of the debate notes in preparation for this speech, and one of the things I came across was some comments actually made by the relevant Minister, the Hon Todd McClay\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThe current system fails to deliver outcomes and places unnecessary costs on forest businesses. The repeal will be delivered at speed, with changes coming into effect before 1\u00A0July.\u201D Therefore, I\u2019d like to get out of the way and get it all enforced. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002257899a2a573a470d8cac3b078be5d645\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257899a2a573a470d8cac3b078be5d645\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. What an unusual treat it is to have a speech on this bill, because I was the lucky chair of the Environment Committee when the original Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers) Amendment Bill was passed. I particularly enjoyed Mr Patterson\u2019s speech tonight because it was New Zealand First who pressed with utmost urgency that this was a critical piece of legislation to ensure that we had a robust domestic industry. And it\u2019s interesting, because my own background is in professional regulation and this regime landed on the select committee table with a fully fledged complaints and dispute resolution framework at incredible pace, and with urgency because of the importance of it. We worked through all kinds of details of standards committees and what kind of code of conduct there would be and how we deal with commercial disputes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ETo be fair, at the time, this was very much a New Zealand First initiative. In fact, it was of critical importance to them. It was a \u201Cdo or die\u201D situation. And here we have it. They\u2019ve flip-flopped. Someone in their coalition said, \u201CWe don\u2019t like that.\u201D And Shane Jones said, \u201CWell, you know, maybe, you know\u201D\u2014Mr Patterson said we tried it; it was a bad idea. Let\u2019s be clear, it\u2019s not even properly enforced yet. It hasn\u2019t actually been fully implemented. So we don\u2019t know whether it was going to be a good idea or not. But, even at the time, certainly it was there because New Zealand First desperately wanted it. There was a sense from New Zealand First that some log traders would not be doing the decent thing with domestic growers and providers of foresters, so there was this framework put into place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe do support this bill, because we do have concerns that you can\u2019t go around and, just because you don\u2019t like the way some people are behaving or you\u2019d like to see a different approach\u2014and one of the questions here was the mix between logs that were being exported and logs that were being made available for domestic milling. And, look, the last thing we want is to be importing milled timber from overseas. But, at the same time, we don\u2019t want to be creating an entirely kind of false regime where local mills have some kind of preferential treatment, and people who are buying logs for export are doing it on an other than commercial basis. And that\u2019s, kind of through the back door, essentially what this this regime was at least targeted at. So it, in effect, had an element of trying to interfere in the market in a way in which some would say was anti-competitive. So, in so far as it\u2019s not landed well, that\u2019s not entirely surprising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELog traders\u2014the name pretty much says it all. I\u2019ve heard a number of people who didn\u2019t know about this, but talk about a guy with a ute, or a person with a ute and a laptop. But that\u2019s what log traders do. They purchase logs and they broker them and they then supply them to third parties\u2014a perfectly legitimate role. And, as in any business, there\u2019s going to be some rogues and scallywags out there, but there\u2019s a whole system of commercial law for that. I think we\u2019ve got to be cautious about imposing onerous systems and kind of fully fledged regulatory systems like we do on lawyers, for example, where you\u2019ve simply got two commercial parties with bargaining positions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI think the trigger for a kind of conduct system, which is what this was and is at the moment, but won\u2019t be for long\u2014a conduct system really is only appropriate where you\u2019ve got some kind of vulnerability or significant imbalance of power. A kind of historic origins of those were doctors, lawyers, and those traditional professions, if you like, who had a kind of special position and knowledge, and, therefore, in respect of their clients, they had to have these special conduct rules. Over time, it\u2019s been expanded into kind of the consumer area. So we see the banking code of conduct. We see the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act regime and the financial market conduct regime, all of which are good because of the imbalance of knowledge and power between, essentially, a seller and a buyer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELog traders don\u2019t quite fit into that. This is not a consumer contract. It\u2019s not some kind of fiduciary relationship. So, in fact, it was heavy-handed and that was always the concern. It is with somewhat of a wry smile when being pressed heavily by New Zealand First as to the critical importance and the fact that our local log industry depended for its life on this. So I think Mr Shane Jones is now hiding in the ditch he was about to die in before. So, you know, there you go. But it is good that we can look at this. You know, the ACT Party has got this bee in its bonnet about regulation, as if, on this side of the House, we just love regulation. Well, it\u2019s not the case. We want appropriate regulation in appropriate places. And, certainly, in the forestry industry, there is some appropriate regulation needed. I\u2019m sure my colleague our spokesperson for workplace safety will have something to say about that. But in terms of regulating the relationship between buyers and sellers of logs, it seemed a very odd place to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, yes, we want responsible capitalism, but we actually want capitalism that works. And we agree that where there is an unnecessary fetter on people making agreements and engaging in effective business, then we want to get rid of them. I would say come over and have a yarn, because we\u2019re very interested in this. As our position on this bill shows, we\u2019re really interested in having a fruitful discussion, but we think the kind of regulation bonfire approach is just a little unsophisticated and doesn\u2019t really serve us well. So, in respect of this piece of legislation, we think that the code of conduct framework was unnecessary. Of course, the additional fees and levies, that does have to be borne somewhere, whether it\u2019s in the traders\u2019 profits or the price of the timber that ultimately gets milled, and we don\u2019t want to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe commercial disputes resolution framework\u2014you know, there was something in that. I\u2019m actually a real advocate of keeping disputes out of the courts as far as we can, and providing people with a forum and a framework which is non-court - based is a good thing. But you don\u2019t actually need to do that by imposition in commercial situations. You can generally provide a framework and let people pick it up if they choose to do so. So, once again, that\u2019s a really good example of how you can provide the tools but not necessarily go down the road of compulsion. A lot of these disputes can be solved by mediation or by arbitration, which was, essentially, the framework that was set out in this log traders framework here. But the fact of the matter is that a non-litigious approach is by far and away better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut, at the end of the day, what we\u2019re all interested in is a robust, thriving, and competitive forestry industry and one which has both a good export aspect to it. We do want to see our timber go overseas. Ideally, it would be milled before it goes over\u2014but we know that\u2019s not always the case\u2014but also a robust domestic industry. We don\u2019t think we need regulation to achieve that. We think that the industry\u2019s actually in good health. It\u2019s going to have its ups\u00A0and\u00A0downs\u2014industries, and primary industries in particular, always do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, once again, good on you, Matua Jones. You come to this House one day, say something is absolutely important, and the next day slink away with your tail between your legs saying, \u201CWell, maybe it wasn\u2019t that important after all. Maybe it was all just a bit of a mistake.\u201D Kia ora, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022adde46e60bf9436d8ca7deb5d53d519b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adde46e60bf9436d8ca7deb5d53d519b\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a great pleasure to speak on the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill. I think there\u2019s widespread agreement across the House that this Act is unnecessary. I do have to take a little bit of issue with the previous speaker, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb. I think it\u2019s a big person who is someone who can accept that they put something in that is not actually fit for purpose, with new information, and I think it\u2019s really big of them to come forward and take it on the chin and move on. With that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00227cdb7f934fa74faa9c7dd458b74d5c7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cdb7f934fa74faa9c7dd458b74d5c7e\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to make a contribution to this Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill. I have to say it was a bill that I wasn\u2019t that involved with. I wasn\u2019t in the Parliament when my colleague Duncan Webb was involved on the select committee, so I had to look into the history of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ETo start with, I was thinking, well, this actually looks quite good, the fact that we have some constraints on one of our most dangerous work areas, which is forestry. But then when I looked at the content of the bill, I realised, obviously, that\u2019s not the purpose of this bill. It was very much to do with regulating the sale and the trade of logs, which is not the biggest issue in my mind for regulation. And I thought a bit more widely about this and looked at the existing framework in relation to some of the health and safety provisions that we have in forestry. And the reason that this comes to mind in forestry is, as Peeni Henare indicated before, forestry is our most dangerous profession by quite some magnitude. So if you look at the number of people who are injured and the number of fatalities that occur, these are much, much greater in relation to forestry than they are in almost any other industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere is in the explanatory note an explanation of why this bill has been brought to the House. It\u2019s to do with the National Party\u2019s position in relation to the election. Fair enough. You win the election; you get to implement the policies that you campaign on. And I know that this was an important thing that the National Party has had a long history opposing. I didn\u2019t agree with the focus, though, on lack of regulation. So that\u2019s why it was really important to me, when I read this bill and we were considering our support for this bill, to go through the types of regulations which were actually included in this particular bill and just to assure myself that they aren\u2019t ones that could be associated with having a safer regime for forest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI am interested to hear and participate in the committee stage where we\u2019ll have the opportunity to question the Minister more on the regulatory framework and just to tease out a little bit what was meant in the original legislation that this repeals, which actually talks about professionalising forestry. And, you know, I have a degree of sympathy with the idea that because it is such a hugely dangerous trade and a necessary one\u2014obviously, we do need logs to be able to build, and it\u2019s important for our trade. There\u2019s lots of important things associated with forestry, and my contribution is not at all meant to cast any doubt on a lot of people within that sector who do want to have a robust regime in place, but the original bill did say that they wanted to kind of look at making sure they got rid of cowboys. And that\u2019s something that I would agree with. So that was something that I was concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EBut when I actually looked at this particular bill, there\u2019s obviously the repeal of the traders and forestry advisers. I have listened to the points that have been raised in the House, and it appears that the objectives that were meant to be achieved by that particular part of the bill, perhaps haven\u2019t served the purpose or they\u2019re not as necessary from the proponents in support of this bill. So I can accept that. And I did note that, also, there is still an aspect of this legislative change which will go ahead in terms of the Forests (Legal Harvest Assurance) Amendment Act. And so this bill, as I understand it, takes the commencement date out to, I think, 1\u00A0August\u00A02027. So there is a component still, and I\u2019m sure the Minister will be able to go through this in subsequent readings and also on the committee stage, that is still maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EBut, overall, I agree with my colleagues that we should support the repeal of this legislation, but also to note the concerning rate of injury and workplace deaths that occur in the forestry industry and not to accept wholeheartedly some of the language in this bill around the need for lack of regulation, because I think regulations that keep people safe, regulations that save lives, and regulations that mean that people come home at night to their families are really important. For all too many forestry families, that hasn\u2019t happened. So this particular bill doesn\u2019t go very far at all towards that objective, but I would encourage the House and the Minister to make sure that they are aware of those issues and work towards them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e54a8a53c0f14b4ebd35dadcbe7aa137\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e54a8a53c0f14b4ebd35dadcbe7aa137\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Happy to rise and take a call in the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill. I think the case has been traversed quite well\u2014the Minister put forward and outlined the clear reasons we need this. Ultimately, one of the biggest frustrations I hear from my constituents in the Waikato is the over-regulation; the burdensome red tape and compliance that just makes it hard to get stuff done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we are focused on unlocking New Zealand\u2019s potential, on driving that economic growth, rebuilding the economy, and getting the country back on track. So I absolutely support this bill and look forward to the progressions of the next few stages this evening. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002203757ca919cc4e50a0c11280c9627a92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203757ca919cc4e50a0c11280c9627a92\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Thank you for allowing me to take a call on the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill, part of a suite of different measures that have been designed to reduce regulation. The changes that were brought in, led by Shane Jones in this space, are being wound back. I think it\u2019s important to note that while we are supporting the bill, it is really important that the safeguards that have been undertaken to industry to make sure that those forestry exporters and forestry growers\u2014that those safeguards are in place. That is the main caveat that we are placing upon the support of this bill today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs it has already been noted, not only is forestry a significant part of our export market\u2014fourth-largest, I believe\u2014but it\u2019s also an area where there has been a large number of workplace casualties and also fatalities. It has been a hugely unregulated place where workers are operating in incredibly dangerous situations. It is important to note that the way we do our business in New Zealand directly reflects upon our international reputation and our ability to continue and grow our trade market. So if we are serious about growing trade, if we are serious about growing our economy, we need to look after our workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would just like to acknowledge the work of Helen Kelly in this space. She worked for a long time and fought for many families who had lost loved ones. She fought WorkSafe hard and long for poor-quality investigation where workers had been killed and did not come home, because of poor-quality safety practices right here in New Zealand\u2014young men operating with dangerous instruments, and felling trees in areas that were just plain unsafe. So, with pulling back regulation, we need to be cautious that we don\u2019t kill and hurt the very people that we are expecting to drive our economy further. That word of warning comes with taking away any form of regulation. We need to be doing that in a measured sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOne of the things that\u2019s always struck me living in the Wellington area is how many logs sit on our ports when you drive past. It always strikes me that we should be doing a little bit more of that processing here in New Zealand. We support local processing of those trees that we fell. It would be far better for our own economy to have value-add to be making more of those products here in New Zealand that we\u2019re able to export at a higher price. There\u2019s some really smart stuff going on in that sector in terms of composites and how we can do that in the building sector. I think this is an area that we could continue to work upon. Instead, we do send a lot of it offshore and then we bring it back in as finished goods from other countries. I think there\u2019s some opportunities there for us to make more out of the produce that we grow right here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important to note, in terms of this winding back regulation, that we always take a good look at our supply chains\u2014where are they starting off and where are they finishing and what are the industries involved along that process of supply chains? Regulation can be really effective at lining up our industries so that we get maximum bang for buck. Sometimes, just cutting staff and saying \u201CRed tape sucks and we\u2019re going to get rid of it.\u201D loses sight of some of the bigger scope of how we plan and, for a small country, make the most of our resources, make the most of our skills, and grow our GDP as much as we possibly can. So I really hope that there\u2019s further work going on with this Government to understand the bigger picture of our forestry sector and how we make the most of the opportunities that we have right here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to also note that this bill defers the commencement date so we see it makes those amendments to the bill that was enacted in 2023. It\u2019s to ensure that there are no regulatory gaps and that full engagement is effected with people and trading partners, that that can be delivered. It\u2019s important to keep that in place. It also ensures that the secondary legislation for the legal harvest system is developed and implemented in a way that appropriately manages risk and does not add unnecessary compliance costs. That\u2019s an important balance to strike\u2014between making sure we manage risk but also managing compliance. It\u2019s important to listen to the sector, and we believe, in Labour, that we want to work with our local sector and understand their concerns, to not only make sure their job is easier but also that they balance those risks that have been outlaid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that New Zealand First pushed forward and I see that they\u2019re still OK with it now as it\u2019s wound back and to reduce some of that regulation. Overall, I think it is an interesting time and I look forward to seeing not only how the Government but also the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) sees how we make sure this operates well. The bill specifically provides for MPI to refund any of those levies or any of those fees under the system and also to waive those levies or fees that are due but not yet paid as part of when this was meant to commence. It also stipulates here that all unresolved complaints and reviews will be extinguished and commercial disputes discontinued. Those consequential amendments made will make sure that when it commences, the Act does not include any of the provisions that relate to that primary piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFor a sector that means a lot to New Zealand\u2019s economy, for a sector that does a lot of good for New Zealand, a big part of our export market, but also a lot of workers out there, I really hope that this Government gets it right and I really hope that they strike that balance appropriately between reducing regulation but managing risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d65cc42e5b2d42779a55c6dcaac8c5b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d65cc42e5b2d42779a55c6dcaac8c5b6\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Another great bill that removes red tape\u2014unnecessary red tape\u2014and removes costs for the forestry sector, which, like the rest of the primary sector, are doing it pretty tough at the moment. I\u2019m sure they\u2019ll appreciate a reduction in cost. The old adage \u201CIf it ain\u2019t broke, don\u2019t fix it.\u201D certainly applies. The cost of the red tape is now a solution that has turned out to be a solution looking for a problem that didn\u2019t actually eventuate. So, red tape\u2014unnecessary red tape\u2014bye, bye. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cd71bc8a76c54032a91fd56d84660e0b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000921\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0deb5c6cc3a465eafb4a4c62dc4c00b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0deb5c6cc3a465eafb4a4c62dc4c00b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ffd41549720b4669bfac4e323019cda1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d23dd9ca8a344e998ad758f96b2fa04\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Forests Act 1949\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002262a8f53019af407c8775210814d71082\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262a8f53019af407c8775210814d71082\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill. We come first to the debate on Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 8, \u201CAmendments to Forests Act 1949\u201D, and the Schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00225c4e4578abd94af69e95dfc664123075\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c4e4578abd94af69e95dfc664123075\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00227d08a7bf82534ff6a3aaf8feac138d84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d08a7bf82534ff6a3aaf8feac138d84\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002220f319eeeb7941278407fc33a0563553\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220f319eeeb7941278407fc33a0563553\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As we look towards Part\u00A01, it might be really good just to elaborate for the members across the Chamber what are the parts that are being repealed here is, which is the code of ethics. A code of ethics is really important, and if you look at the short list of the code of ethics that is there, one will see \u201Cprofessional responsibility\u201D, \u201Cresponsibility to clients\u201D, \u201Cprofessional work standards by registered forestry adviser\u201D and \u201Cmaintaining professional competency\u201D. I think these are all things we\u2019d all look towards in the sector, especially in a sector such as forestry, which is important to our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe Minister, the Hon Todd McClay, in the first and second readings of the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill, talked about some of the safeguards. I think, when we think about the code of ethics and what is happening here with its repeal, there are going to be some assurances sought not just from the Minister\u2014because I appreciate the Minister is the Minister of the sector. But the sector itself will need to make sure that they do act ethically and that they do engage the sector broadly and don\u2019t take it upon themselves alone, in some of the organised bodies, to make the decisions on behalf of others, who might not get to be fully represented there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe question I have for the Minister, with respect to Part 1, about those safeguards, which he did refer to in his speech\u2014things that will give this side of the House assurance that those codes of ethics, in particular with trade, can be upheld; or a code of ethics can be upheld, given that we are repealing in this particular bill. I wonder\u2014and I\u2019m going to take just a small licence here\u2014if that might also extend to some of the other matters that were raised through the speeches by my colleagues in the first and second reading of the bill, about making sure that there is a good code of ethics right across the sector. I think, if we\u2019re going to do it, we want to make sure that we can have it right for exporters. We want to give confidence to the whole sector, as the international markets look toward New Zealand for the exporting of timber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s my first question for the Minister, and I appreciate he\u2019s got the advisers there and he\u2019s writing some notes. So I\u2019m going to shift to my second question, and that is with respect to the forestry practice standards. Work safety is paramount for our party. We want to know that forestry practice standards with respect to trade will continue\u2014same thing: to look towards the safeguards for the sector, so the forestry practice standards\u2014the practical application of what would be a code of ethics. So those sort of go hand in hand, and I\u2019ll leave those as my first two opening salvos for the Minister as we go through this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5a746dedc774ff9911e5731c7088d17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5a746dedc774ff9911e5731c7088d17\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to take the opportunity to ask the Minister some questions about this piece of legislation. I guess, really, how he is going to ensure that there is a kind of respectable, cowboy-free log trade in relation to specifically Part 1, which amends the Forests Act 1949?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EObviously, a lot has changed in New Zealand since 1949, but this piece of legislation remains on our statute book. I just did a quick google, and I think Sid Holland was the Prime Minister in 1949, and I imagine that the forestry trade was also possibly flourishing at that time, but with not the same level of workplace regulations or rules to keep people safe as we had then. So this particular part\u2014and I appreciate there are other parts that amend different pieces of legislation, but this is a Forests Act 1949. And so, if the Minister could just, kind of, let us know how we can be assured, with the repeal of this legislation, of a continued professional practice in relation to forestry and trade in logs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI also want to emphasise a question by my colleague Peeni Henare, which was also touched on by my colleague Ginny Andersen as well. Professionalism does entail, even though this is not the purpose of this bill, a level of care for the community that the forestry is being undertaken on, the land, the environmental concerns, the workers\u2019 safety. The original Act that this amendment to the Forests Act repeals was allegedly going to increase professionalism and get rid of cowboys, so how are we assured with the repeal of this code of ethics in this part\u2014specifically, in clause 4\u2014that that will occur? That\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022113238565a9c4fb0abab3565ef065b7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022113238565a9c4fb0abab3565ef065b7a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019re looking at Part\u00A01. I would like to take a couple of calls on this, but the first one is actually to do with clause 4, and again, later on, it is my understanding that the Schedule is also part of Part\u00A01, which we\u2019re going to be discussing\u2014so please correct me if I\u2019m wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re looking at clause 4 of this, there are a couple of concerns that I would like to raise in terms of the repeal of some of the definitions. I think we\u2019ve already heard about this in terms of the definition when it comes to the code of ethics, but also some of these\u2014you know, I understand, considering we\u2019re repealing it, I say to the Minister, because I can see we\u2019re repealing the log traders and the forestry advisers bit, so I understand the removal of some of these. Again, I want to express some concerns around the repeal of, specifically, the code of ethics and the forestry practice standards, and maybe just see if we can get some reassurance from the Minister that the removal of these means that we\u2019ll still be able to continue to maintain the same level of quality that has come with the introduction of the log traders and forestry advisers legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think that in this particular case, as we\u2019ve heard in the first and second readings\u2014and I was really appreciative of the Minister talking in terms of the tabled amendments, in terms of some of the consultation that has been undertaken. I think that one of the things we\u2019ve stressed in the first and second readings, because we haven\u2019t been able to hear from small forestry operators\u2014other than the speakers in this House\u2014during those readings, is that it would be really good to know that what we are looking at doing in this will be to maintain that same level of equity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI understand, when the Minister and other people are talking about that, that we want forestry to be an area that flourishes and thrives, but there is this latent concern that when we are removing some of the definitions as part of this repeal, we are seeing a further imbalance and not that level of diversification of the forestry operators that we could be seeing here in Aotearoa. Again, this is something we\u2019ve heard before. These are locally owned, locally producing operators, and it would be a huge shame that by removing some of these definitions, what we would be starting to see is more centralisation and more conglomeration when it comes to the forestry industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would like to draw attention in this case to the supplementary analysis report, at paragraph 23, and also paragraph 26, where it says, \u201CThe main beneficiaries of repealing the RTFA regime will be the forest practitioners, the logging companies, and trade entities, including wood processers and log exporters.\u201D Although this particular point is something we might come back to because it might affect other parts of this legislation, I would like\u00A0to\u00A0draw attention to that in the context of the definition. The other part is that in paragraph 26, it says, \u201CThe main cost of repealing the RTFA regime would likely fall on small-forest owners.\u201D, and, again, that is really concerning. So I ask if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying whether the repeal of any of these definitions would have unintended consequences as a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second part is more looking at clause 4(2), in terms of the definition of \u201Cregistered\u201D. In this particular clause, it is to repeal paragraph (c) of that definition. I would also be curious\u2014and this is a very minor point\u2014in terms of the drafting over here, where I see inconsistency of the drafting, because it is my understanding that the paragraph (c) here is to do with the register of the log traders and forestry advisers. The main bulk of the questions I am looking at, to the Minister, is if the Minister could just provide some reassurance to the committee and to us that we\u2019re not going to be seeing inequity as a result of the repeal of the definitions and that we are still going to be seeing the maintenance of the same standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022720a488d437e4d009f1583ec9187d27a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022720a488d437e4d009f1583ec9187d27a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question for the Minister of Forestry is probably relatively short. I see that under Part 1, clause 10 of New Part 3 inserted into Schedule 1AA of the Forests Act 1949 says that in respect of commercial disputes, parties to a dispute don\u2019t have to continue to comply with the dispute resolution procedure. It seems a little odd. It may be\u2014and the Minister, no doubt, can take advice on this\u2014that there are no disputes because it\u2019s new, so in fact it\u2019s just a kind of belt and braces approach. But if parties have entered into a dispute resolution procedure on a set of rules that both parties know and have been imposed, it seems very unusual, just as a basic principle, but also having an element of retrospectivity\u2014that something has started and in fact you\u2019re now retrospectively changing it because you\u2019ve got into a set of rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt is a very short question, but it\u2019s kind of a natural justice question about when you enter into a dispute resolution arrangement, and then you legislate to change the rights that have crystallised. That\u2019s a concern to me because the rights of the parties to have a particular process seem to have kind of fallen into place and those rights now exist\u2014because it does say \u201Cparties to an existing dispute do not need to comply\u201D. Now, the fact is the rules about the dispute resolution process will have benefits and burdens, and one party will like them and the other party won\u2019t like them. So I\u2019m very interested to hear from the Minister whether there are any disputes, and, if so, has he taken advice on that retrospectivity point\u2014if there is. If there\u2019s none, then I don\u2019t think we even need the clause and it\u2019s not an issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d49f991ebea04f1192e548f7c8a8691d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d49f991ebea04f1192e548f7c8a8691d\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for giving me my first call on this bill. I just had a few questions that I wanted to ask around it, but I wanted to preface it a little bit with some context. Forestry, as we all know, is an over $6 billion industry, and I had a look at what the actual costs of the registration were. So I had a look and the cost for the application was $510.60, with the annual levy set at $320 and the renewal being set at $444. There\u2019s been an assertion that the rationale for this bill is that there have been undue costs and undue regulatory burden on business, but that fee doesn\u2019t seem to be set all that high to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EConsidering that we\u2019ve seen what the catastrophic impacts of under-regulation are, with the impacts of forestry slash in the aftermath of the extreme weather events in Cyclone Gabrielle and the sad stuff that happened in the North Island, it would seem to me that the forestry sector\u2014and, you know, considering that some of the contributions that the Labour members have made are rightly pointing out that we do need to make sure that the forestry sector is safe, particularly for workers, particularly for owners, and particularly for communities that are around forestry, it doesn\u2019t strike me that there\u2019s under-regulation at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EI guess my first question to the Minister is: what evidence, I guess, have you had in terms of over-regulation? I appreciate that this bill isn\u2019t going to go through a select committee process, so we sadly will miss out on the chance to hear from submitters, but, yeah, I would really be interested in what evidence there has been on over-regulation. Particularly since I think there\u2019s been an assertion that voluntary regulation and some sort of code of practice will kind of fill the gap that the withdrawal of regulation can have, but the supplementary analysis paper says that before the regulation was introduced there were 90 registered members under the voluntary scheme and that after the regulation was introduced there were 527 members. So it just strikes me that if less than one in five of the forestry advisers and of the forestry owners were members of the voluntary kind of regime that existed, won\u2019t it just go back to that same old kind of cowboy country of under-regulation, as my colleague H\u016Bhana Lyndon rightly pointed out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s particularly important as well, I think, because I\u2019m coming at this from a climate angle as well as the kind of regulation angle. Forestry will play an important role in meeting our kind of domestic targets and also potentially our international targets, so I would also be interested in hearing from the Minister whether there has been any analysis done on the impact of repealing regulations on the extent of forestry coverage. I think it\u2019s kind of like the basics of supply and demand. I think members on the Government benches have asserted that if we withdraw regulation, it will lead to the forestry sector expanding, so what is the extent of that expansion that will happen and what can we expect from that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThis leads on to my final question, that obviously there\u2019s an interaction between the forestry sector and the New Zealand emissions trading scheme. We\u2019ve seen, in the past, carbon market auctions fail because they have failed to meet the reserve price, so is there a concern that\u2014and this is the logic that I\u2019m following\u2014if the Government benches have asserted that withdrawing regulation will lead to a growth in the forestry sector, and a growth in the forestry sector means that there\u2019ll be an expansion of potential providers of emissions returns and carbon units (NZUs) in their carbon market scheme, does that mean that there\u2019ll be a flood of NZUs in the scheme? What will that do to the reserve price, and not only the reserve price but the overall price in the secondary markets in the emissions trading scheme? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWe do need a carbon price that actually incentivises companies to avoid making pollution, and we\u2019ve heard assertions from the Government benches that they\u2019re relying on market-based mechanisms. So if you\u2019re actually flooding the markets with forestry credits, what does that do to the incentives to actually reduce pollution? So I\u2019m really curious to hear the Minister after the dinner break, perhaps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00227efa18a3440641df8de3eb07605b4c82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227efa18a3440641df8de3eb07605b4c82\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E Whilst there\u2019s a very short amount of time, I thought I\u2019d address some of these comments, and, of course, we\u2019re back after the dinner break. Firstly, to most colleagues, the legislation is very, very narrow. So, in as far as the emissions trading scheme is concerned or environmental standards or what people can do in forest health and safety, it\u2019s outside the scope of this legislation, and it is governed with many other parts of legislation, and that doesn\u2019t change. In fact, I think we\u2019ll see over the next three years in this House us having conversations about how we strengthen requirements on the environment, in the way we plant trees, and certainly health and safety, but doing so in such a way that doesn\u2019t add additional burden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn as far as the retrospective nature of saying any dispute would be dismissed, there aren\u2019t any disputes we\u2019re aware of at the moment. But, more broadly, when we say, \u201CDo we need this regulation?\u201D Well, the member\u2019s right that the cost is about $500 per year, but that\u2019s the cost to run the system of registration on the part of the Government, it\u2019s not the cost to those who have entered into it or the obligation, the cost that they have on a daily basis to collect information, report, and do other things. That\u2019s just the cost that we take off them to run the system. We\u2019re giving that money back because we won\u2019t have a system, but actually that\u2019s not the cost to the sector. The actual cost is the things that the legislation imposed upon them and requires them to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI would say the New Zealand Institute of Forestry wasn\u2019t in the space that they are today when the legislation first went through. They have a regulatory system they set up themselves. They are being very, very responsible. It is growing. Indeed, there are examples that I\u2019ve been made aware of where they go and help people where there has been a dispute between a trader or somebody that has been registered or not registered, even though they may not be a member, and they\u2019ve gone to work that out with them because actually they and many other parts of the sector have stepped up and are showing greater responsibility for themselves, and actually we\u2019ve got to find ways to work with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EWith that in mind, I can stop here and can go into greater detail, but again, in many of the areas that members have raised questions, they fall outside of the scope of the legislation of what we\u2019re changing. They are important, and therefore the requirements that are in place from the forestry sector to meet those obligations don\u2019t alter at all as a result of the repeal of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c05d7fe83260481aaed5694873d11fd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c05d7fe83260481aaed5694873d11fd3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come to suspend for the dinner break. We will resume again at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.03 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd9bf701003745449889a6c0eb4e5d0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd9bf701003745449889a6c0eb4e5d0b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, when we rose for the dinner break, the House was in committee and is in committee on the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill, and we were on the debate on Part 1. I will take some calls but I was watching before the dinner break and I do want to make it very clear that it\u2019s a very narrow bill and there\u2019s been a number of calls that have gone quite wide of the bill so I expect people to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291dff71469924bba9e8aee0f7791fd70\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I think it\u2019s appropriate, given that observation, to note that we are doing all stages under urgency and there\u2019s not many opportunities to have a wide-ranging debate on a bill or an examination that would be akin to a select committee examination, except for this committee. So I would ask\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257618c0f8e3e4fd0bc7fb82d645e5a6e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I accept that, Dr Webb. All I\u2019m saying is that we can have a wide-ranging debate on this bill. Some of the things I heard were actually not part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220abbeae7f1b9413da8d0ab9a733b8e61\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Fair point. Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002262fab58520864ebebb95a77cb8502731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262fab58520864ebebb95a77cb8502731\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002250117b276c2f477f9fcaff12acfefe6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250117b276c2f477f9fcaff12acfefe6c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to give what is my first call on this debate. As a former professional with experience in a large commercial group that owned a forest, the Woodhill Forest, I\u2019m really interested in how the professional-practice expectations of those practising in the forestry sector work. So my first line of questions for the Minister are around whether he has considered some transitional provisions which would allow some of the good work that most people in this House would agree was useful at the time it was introduced to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to come to Part 1 of the bill. It\u2019s clause 4 under (1)(e). The Minister is proposing to repeal the requirement for a forestry register, and the questions I have for him are about whether he has considered some transitionary or savings provisions in relation to that repeal, or whether he is open to considering whether that particular piece needs to be repealed at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5b18fbb637a4aa8a2199d64c6110a9e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt that member\u2019s speech, but I understand there\u2019s a member in the Chamber who may be on the phone, and I\u2019d ask them to put that down, and I will allow the member a little extra time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5ba852e344840e999e37fb1a7f59b52\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So my question about the forestry register here is that this bill was introduced at a time when there was widespread concern from forestry owners about bad practice, rogue trading, in the industry. We believe, and the Minister obviously believes that those conditions have changed, but there was some good work there around registering practitioners in this area. My questions are about whether some of that good work can be saved. So the registration element is a system that assures anyone dealing with registered log traders and forestry advisors that they\u2019re getting expert and impartial advice from people with the right knowledge and experience. That\u2019s why it was set up at the time, because of this widespread concern that there were just a small number of operators that weren\u2019t doing that and were offering terms of trade that, if they had been formally contracted, they would have been unconscionable and unreasonable at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe registered log traders and forestry advisors would have then passed a background check, including a criminal conviction check. That will be done away with under these new provisions, and we accept that the Minister has had some advice on this and that he doesn\u2019t believe that that is now necessary. The good work that has been obtained by that is having a register of people who have gone through those checks and who may be held to a high standard, and that is useful for the market to have access to that information. It is useful for small forestry owners in particular, and M\u0101ori forestry owners and M\u0101ori forestry blocks who have a governance structure which is unusual, where they have a number of lay people sitting on their governance structure, to have access to that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo the first question to the Minister is: has he considered making that information available in an ongoing way, given that work has been done and given that it wouldn\u2019t require any change to the legislation necessarily to provide for that information to still be available and maintained going forward? The second question is: if forestry advisors and log traders chose to be registered in this way\u2014which, you know, there are many professional bodies which provide this function\u2014but given the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) is already set up to be able to provide a function like that and there is no professional body doing it at the moment, would it be appropriate for MPI to continue to provide that function and to continue to be able to provide some assurance around those people who are practising to a high standard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy other question for the Minister is: once registered, those log traders and forestry advisors had ongoing obligations that they met. Now, I know that my colleague the Hon Peeni Henare has asked some questions around, say, that code of ethics, but there are other obligations there that they would be held to, and I want to understand whether the Minister is interested in a further amendment for some transitional provisions which would save those ongoing obligations then applying to people who chose to be on such a register, which would need a legislative change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also want to ask the Minister about the complaints process that this register allowed for. It created, essentially, a regime where a complaints process was set up to deal with complaints about registered log traders and forestry advisers, and anyone could make a complaint about unsatisfactory conduct or misconduct of one of those registered forestry advisors. The useful thing that that did is it created one place where small forestry owners could take complaints about the advice that they had received or about conditions and a commercial arrangement that later turned out to be unfair, and I want to hear from the Minister how complaints will be resolved under his proposed changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5827d724077488284d8af27b4096dc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5827d724077488284d8af27b4096dc7\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Maybe the Minister just has to counterfactual to the previous member\u2019s remarks. You could elucidate or illuminate or all of the above for the members of this committee, what the counterfactual looks like in the absence of a registration system, given that there are local bylaws, as you would be cognisant of, sir, I am sure, that a polluter pays, and if there are issues in and around slash or bad practice, those that are affording those poor practices in a regional community would otherwise be caught by council bylaws. Do you have thoughts on that, sir?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002212acc06d9b424cf281e4e0822b1487c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212acc06d9b424cf281e4e0822b1487c3\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To Part 1, clause 6, \u201CSection 13 amended (Protection of forestry officers)\u201D\u2014it repeals section 13(2). My question here is: throughout the progress of this bill, we talked about trust and empowerment of the sector. This one, if I recall correctly, gives the Minister the ability to delegate powers outside of what would be a forest officer, if you will, or a forestry authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI wondered, in this very brief question\u2014it\u2019s about whether or not the Minister had considered maintaining or retaining that power in order to be able to perhaps delegate that authority to a forestry body, another group that might look towards, as the Minister put it, future regulations that will put in place a system that will allow the export of forestry logs offshore to be in a system that is led, designed by the sector itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo just a very brief question to the Minister\u2014just to repeat myself\u2014whether or not the Minister considered whether or not he would retain that authority to be able to delegate that to somebody who isn\u2019t a forestry officer or a forestry authority, perhaps to a sector or to a body of a forestry sector in order for them to be able to possess those powers and whether or not the Minister considered keeping it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022c70000b652a64a6e866bf851c2c51100\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c70000b652a64a6e866bf851c2c51100\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Firstly, I just want to kind of pick up what our colleague mentioned before in terms of polluter pays. I\u2019m mainly kind of interested to hear from the Minister regarding the interaction when we\u2019re looking at something like slash and polluter pays and the interaction that will have with the bill that was recently passed in the House around the waste minimisation levy, and how that potentially\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268236328541144fbb9e467ab98e2556b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to the member, but we\u2019re not discussing the Waste Minimisation Bill. I want to keep this very close to the regulations that are involved with this piece of legislation, and it is also not the emissions trading scheme bill,\u00A0either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc06db492be14068af22d31875be215b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. If I may, there are two questions regarding the relationship with Part 1 and also Schedule 1 with the primary legislation that I\u00A0would like some clarification from the Minister on. So if I could ask sort of that relationship, but two separate questions. If the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind responding, that would be greatly appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first question is around, you know, we did talk about the repeal of the definition, but when we are looking at the primary legislation in the Forests Act 1949, under both the code of ethics as well as forestry practice standards, it talks about the definition in relation to another section within the primary legislation. So for the code of ethics, it talks about the relationship that that particular clause has with section 63ZZM and for the forestry practice standard, the relationship with that and also the definition in section 63ZZL. So the first clarification I want from the Minister is whether the repeal of the definition is just the definition or the subsequent clauses have also been repealed as a result. That\u2019s my first question, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind responding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00226e3eed41b9b84526a8cd680de9955724\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e3eed41b9b84526a8cd680de9955724\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I look forward to the Minister, the Hon Todd McClay, engaging with my questions about the forestry register, but I have some further follow-up questions about the register, if you\u2019ll indulge me. This legislation, as I understand it\u2014and this is a simple question for the Minister\u2014doesn\u2019t repeal that definition of a forestry adviser, but it does take away some of the regulations around their involvement. So my first question to him: is it his intention that forestry advisers will still be a regulated term and will still be a protected term?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy second question is: is it his view that in situations where a small forestry owner, or even a medium-sized forestry owner, is seeking advice on their commercial arrangements\u2014because the comparison here, just to explain myself, is that forestry advisers are people who, under the Act, are acting on behalf of another person in relation to the sale or purchase of timber or other forest produce. That person who was once regulated under these provisions\u2014there would have been recourse if their advice was negligent or there was misconduct around their actions. Does he think that for small forestry owners and medium-sized forestry owners who are seeking that kind of advice, for that advice to be protected they will otherwise need to, essentially, get their advice from lawyers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI ask this question because that is the capacity I was involved in, in forestry ownership, as the general counsel of that group. As the general counsel, I was providing advice not only on the arrangements between the commercial forester and the commercial group holdings company, but also on things like the stumpage and the arrangements to use the roads in a commercial forest, because all of those things are complex commercial arrangements. Foresters, essentially, build roads in a forest to last only the lifecycle of when they will be harvesting. So I want to understand from the Minister whether he is really further pushing costs on to small forestry owners and medium-sized forestry owners, who need that level of protection about the advice and to be able to rely on it in future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy further question, and this is a different line of inquiry, is specifically in relation to Crown forests that have been returned to iwi. Those are a patchwork of arrangements that, basically, change hands from the Crown to iwi over sometimes 20-, sometimes 30-, sometimes 50-year cycles, where, essentially, you have blocks within the forest that are being harvested at different times, and when one block is harvested, it will go from Crown ownership to iwi ownership. My question there is that, say, in the Kaingaroa Forest at the moment, you\u2019ll have a puzzle where some of the forests are owned by iwi and some are owned by the Crown. In those kinds of scenarios, you have pretty complex and heavy-duty commercial arrangements between one American forester, who is backed by iwi, and the Crown forestry entity, which will be backed by another commercial forester.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo I want to understand, in those scenarios, whether the Minister is opening up further risk to the Crown in those pretty complex commercial arrangements which are also backed by Treaty settlements, where, if an iwi is getting advice which is now not protected, they will come back to the Crown where they have forestry advisers who have acted negligently and where their economic outcomes do not support their aspirations for that forest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002293b7d2e9e01f4e229518dc327b00a4c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293b7d2e9e01f4e229518dc327b00a4c1\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you, and I\u2019ll try to go through some of these fairly succinctly and I\u2019ll try to stick to the order. The first round of questions, around transitional provisions: no, haven\u2019t looked at that. The reason for that is when things are repealed, they are not there anymore. So we\u2019re not transitioning to something else; we\u2019re, I suppose, going back to what was there before because the need for the register and the implications of that are now not necessary, firstly. Secondly, we\u2019re seeing the cost is greater than any benefit that would have been there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe member mentioned that there had been widespread concern initially. That wasn\u2019t the case: we go back and look at the original legislation when it went through and the submissions and so on. There was some concern, but I wouldn\u2019t suggest it was widespread at all. What we\u2019ve seen subsequently since the Government announced the repeal of this is almost uniformly across the forestry sector\u2014not just those who are consultants or registered consultants, but across the forestry sector\u2014it\u2019s been accepted because they have said very, very clearly that it hasn\u2019t worked; it hasn\u2019t achieved the things that it looked to four years ago that were needed; and there are a number of other things that have happened as the sector has matured over that period of time that mean the cost to the sector, not the cost of the regulation to the sector, is greater than the benefit they saw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe member also mentioned where somebody has formally contracted, but, actually, you can have formal contractual obligations without a formal contract. With every other part of business and contract law in New Zealand, people are held to account and to a standard and they have to meet that. So that doesn\u2019t change at all\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8d67b857f9a4fa793a414500abf1536\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Sounds like you\u2019ve been buying ferries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b41ba9c608fc4cf285dd25f6a0baa22d\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that doesn\u2019t change at all in this as far as forestry is concerned. There are still obligations there. I come back to what I said before the dinner break when I talked a bit about the New Zealand Institute of Forestry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIndeed, I think one of the questions was, \u201CWould we look to keep the register even though there may not be obligation upon that so people could see who had been registered?\u201D Well, indeed we wouldn\u2019t do that, but for anybody who is looking to work with somebody and give them advice in the forestry sector, the New Zealand Institute of Forestry has set up the equivalent of their own industry standards. They are robust\u2014in some cases, I believe, probably more robust than what is held in this legislation\u2014and they take their obligations very strongly. For a growing number of people involved in forestry, large and small, they look towards whether there is registration of that organisation and make decisions based upon that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI suppose in most things that we do in New Zealand when you want to get advice, you know\u2014I\u2019m not suggesting \u201Cthe buyer beware\u201D, but certainly given the investment that people make in forestry is a very long period of time from a small forestry lot to a large one, they are wise and almost without exception look at the quality of the advice and look to reputation. As far as New Zealand Institute of Forestry and their registration standards are concerned around advisers and traders, they have been asked more often about their members than the system has been. We are not repealing so that there is a vacuum. In fact, the sector itself across the board is taking a greater ownership of the provision of service and accountability than was the case before the legislation came in\u2014even though the legislation is there\u2014and I think that\u2019s a very, very good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThen, finally, to my colleague from ACT: well, the answer to that question also is, though, there is a counterfactual. But, indeed, outside of the very narrow scope of this, as I said before the dinner break, anything to do with environmental standards, the National environmental standard for commercial forestry and so on, remain\u2014doesn\u2019t alter it; doesn\u2019t change it. This legislation doesn\u2019t make people who own land or own trees or plant trees do anything that they are not meant to anyway\u2014have a legal requirement to\u2014with a range of other pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI know it hasn\u2019t been raised now, but by way just of example, members were right before the dinner break: we need to continue to consider how we ensure people who work in forests are safe. This legislation doesn\u2019t make them safer, doesn\u2019t make them less safe\u2014it has nothing to do with that. Indeed, it\u2019s a separate piece of legislation work that we need to focus on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe final point, I think, for my colleague from the Green Party\u2014and he\u2019s talking about\u00A0definitions and so on. Well, indeed, the definitions of \u201Cregistered forestry\u201D or of a \u201Ctrader\u201D remain not in as far as Part 1 is concerned, but because we need them for Part 2\u2014which\u00A0we\u2019re going to have an opportunity to discuss shortly, Madam Chair; we\u2019ll have an opportunity to discuss shortly\u2014so that when it comes to the legal harvest assurance, which we have obligations internationally, we use that to be able to prove that elsewhere. So that\u2019s the only reason they remain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn your question about the primary legislation a long time ago, it doesn\u2019t have any impact upon that\u2014they remain for other reasons. Because there is no provision within this bill once it\u2019s repealed, we don\u2019t have to deal with what was in the primary legislation. But we are keeping those only so we don\u2019t have to go back and create something else for what is remaining in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227f19876f929f4097bd4e0bc985b082fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f19876f929f4097bd4e0bc985b082fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate that this repeal bill has been prepared in haste and there\u2019s no regulatory impact statement, but just looking at the supplementary analysis report, it does raise some good issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAs the Minister just said, there were concerns which led to the original legislation, and we\u2019re now removing the fix. Some of those things which were enhanced by the original framework which we\u2019re now repealing, they\u2019re at risk. So my question is given the repeal bill, what executive steps, essentially, are being taken to look after making sure that we can have confidence or participants can have confidence in the market\u2014the log trading market. It\u2019s on page\u00A06 of the supplementary analysis report, where it talks about the need for\u2014and one of the fixes was there were lax professional standards in some parts of the industry, so a code of conduct was imposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re doing away with a compulsory code of conduct. It strikes me that the Minister now has an opportunity, and his department and agencies, to promote and to give support to the industry in their voluntary code of conduct. Similarly, in terms of things like one of the challenges was poor contracting terms and behaviour, and the code of conduct and the contractual dispute resolution framework enhanced that by giving a kind of a fallback vision. So I\u2019m wondering what supports he is putting in place in place of a legislative framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI notice that the overall assessment in the supplementary analysis report says reverting to the status quo would mean not having mandatory registration, obviously, and has limitations for improving professional standards, transparency, and grower confidence. So the questions\u2014a substantial one for the industry. In terms of those four things, what steps is the Minister taking to fill the gap created by this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00223a405bc68ec843cebd6ae57d82dffa75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a405bc68ec843cebd6ae57d82dffa75\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I think there\u2019s probably a philosophical difference as to the way that we approach these things across the House, although I do recognise the members in the Labour Party are supportive of the bill. The philosophical difference, probably, is from the point of view of a belief that the Government doesn\u2019t have to legislate or regulate everything. A sector has to take responsibility for itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn this case, we are seeing that the forestry sector has not only started to do that, are and looking to enforce it. Again, before the dinner break I gave the example of the New Zealand Institute of Forestry, where there has been a dispute or an issue between a forestry consultant who is registered or otherwise, not their member, to go and assist with that dispute, including the landowner or tree owner that brought the concern. So that\u2019s the sector showing responsibility where they actually don\u2019t have to, I suppose, as not a member of theirs to do so. I applaud them for that and encourage them to do very, very much more. There is a kind of factual of saying the industry is taking responsibility for itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EWhere it doesn\u2019t, then, of course, there often can be a need for legislation or regulation. In the case of this regulation and legislation, the cost upon the sector is greater upon the benefit that they are getting for it. So it\u2019s costing more than the benefit that\u2019s been driven, particularly because they\u2019re taking a lot of the obligation on for themselves. Ultimately, that might or might not have been the case four years ago, but it is today, and that\u2019s the reason for the repeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd2976ee05894e619510e254a8d94cc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd2976ee05894e619510e254a8d94cc9\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for his fulsome answer to that question. I think the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has some further points that are not clarified in the Minister\u2019s answer, because the question is about the New Zealand Institute of Forestry\u2019s ability to assist the industry with that and whether\u2014to my previous point about that, that work has already been done by Ministry for Primary Industries. There is benefit to not only the sector but also to the participants in the forestry industry to passing on, I guess, that information and the learning that has already been done and exists. So, I guess, what we\u2019re asking is whether the Minister would consider making available that work that has already been done to assist the sector with what they propose to do\u2014yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe other question that I have for the Minister is around those Crown forests. I want to understand whether in the Crown forestry licences there is this further risk opened up to the Crown who is the licensor, in the scenario where some land on a certain forestry block is owned by the Crown, some is licenced to a forestry provider, and then to an iwi that has received that in the settlement. I think the Minister did give a brief answer to my question where he explained that contracts are contracts in this area, but the issue that I\u2019m going to is the settlement provisions, which are primary legislation that this House passes, where the Crown sets out its obligations in relation to a forest. So there\u2019s not only a contractual obligation here for the Crown, both in a lease arrangement and an owner\u2019s arrangement with another forester, but there\u2019s also the relationship between the Crown and iwi in those scenarios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe question here is: is there sufficient protection for iwi in the advice that they get on the commercial arrangements, which need to play out in these forests, when we know that there are ongoing commercial disputes in those forests right now between the Crown and iwi who have been settled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00221344df638fe74a0e87211d7a9f1552ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221344df638fe74a0e87211d7a9f1552ed\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of that, if I think about the Central North Island (CNI) as an example, which is probably one of the largest settlements when it came to Crown forest licences, the relationship, in as far as the settlement and handing back and how those forest licences are treated, was done by statute, not by this. So statute set out very, very clearly rights and obligations, including the case of the number of rotations that people have the right of authority to licence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThen, ultimately, if we see the way that has evolved over a period of time\u2014because, from memory, there would be no Crown forest licence that has formed part of a Treaty settlement since this legislation came in. I could be wrong, but I imagine that\u2019s not the case\u2014that, in effect, what happened before and happens afterwards hasn\u2019t changed as a result of this legislation being repealed. Ultimately, I think that before this legislation was put in place, there was a very short period of time it was there before it entered into force, and we\u2019ve got to realise that it\u2019s not that long since the obligation to register came about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe CNI forests\u2014that settlement\u2014has shown how the sector responsibly can develop a very successful commercial relationship. There was a change of land ownership. The trees remained the same. There was a contract, and whatever was in legislation has evolved further between landowners and those who had a right of renewal for another rotation of trees. Actually, it becomes a commercial relationship that we didn\u2019t imagine was likely to be the case, nor those who benefited from the settlement of the land going back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESo, in answer to the question, it doesn\u2019t open the Crown to any liability that is obvious in as far as a landowner, or tree owner that has received trees back, makes a commercial decision as to who to get advice from in the future. If the Crown had an obligation as a result of the settlement, then that doesn\u2019t change irrespective of what this legislation says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022150771cecb26487cbdb4ca05c4749de0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022150771cecb26487cbdb4ca05c4749de0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call Lan Pham, but I\u2019m looking for new questions now. I think the Minister\u2019s been very comprehensive in the answers that he\u2019s given to Part 1. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0707221688f49c8a2e9e5d01633c2ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0707221688f49c8a2e9e5d01633c2ed\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to pick up specifically on clause 7; this is the aspect of the bill that repeals the log trading forestry adviser regulatory regime. The system assures that anyone dealing with these log traders and forestry advisers\u2014it assures people that they\u2019re actually getting that impartial and expert advice from people with the right knowledge and experience, and this sounds like what was a really positive part of this previous bill which has now been repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really keen to hear from the Minister what will replace this or be the interim measure? I\u2019m noting that you\u2019re saying that the sector is going to be taking, you know, much greater ownership of what this looks like, but I\u2019m really interested as to what are the actual steps that they\u2019re going through and the process that they\u2019re going through to actually establish what that is. I\u2019m noting that there were also some really key things, like about the forestry advisers actually passing a background check, including a criminal conviction check, and even evidence of their qualifications and experience\u2014which seems extremely vital when you are someone out there in the public who is wanting to turn to the forestry industry, to contract or anything, and you want to make sure that they\u2019re credible, they have that impartial advice, and they actually know what they\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI also want to pick up on the advice to Cabinet which came in the 2022 decision when they actually bought this in because they specifically identified\u2014and I want to quote them\u2014\u201CWithout specific regulation, there\u2019s a risk that the practice of log traders and forestry advisers will allow poor performance to go unchecked.\u201D So I\u2019m really interested to know, Minister, in your conversations with the sector, are they taking this really seriously? What are the implications of this poor performance, from their perspective, and what are the checks and balances that they\u2019re wanting to introduce to actually ensure that core performance is picked up within what you\u2019re proposing that the sector\u2019s going to undertake now? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI also wanted to know not only from, I guess, the operational perspective how they\u2019re going to do that, but does it also include environmental poor performance and checks and balances around that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ca37a54da4443d28a6dc0967acac651\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not in the scope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a251571b3b0c442bb79c8ed3a36b8e6d\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or the health and safety aspects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5cf5bc9d67d4876a380cd8c81276e50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5cf5bc9d67d4876a380cd8c81276e50\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Environmental is not part of the scope of the bill. It\u2019s regulated\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273e3989126204c40a46bdf86de45d347\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m asking about the sector and how they\u2019re interpreting this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3f98315b0be4b08abb874979b149709\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3f98315b0be4b08abb874979b149709\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215194e073e0b42b981bc449dc466d154\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you. Well, it was a question to the Minister and I\u2019m hearing that the\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00227b375d84a15a4c77a27f1b3ea00e7e37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b375d84a15a4c77a27f1b3ea00e7e37\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0ea458698484c519d1112606ffca37d\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair\u2014point of order, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022883b78a715714c4ea4f7c4b4906e2af4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022883b78a715714c4ea4f7c4b4906e2af4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5f2e4c1963f4f48b05df53e60bdfae8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I had already called the Ayes had it before I got objections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c65b44ee126346148b6f7a38b89c5d3d\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I had a point of order before. Oh, that\u2019s why\u2014the mike wasn\u2019t on. My apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdabbb5f195f4828b6e14a6fe7169504\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, I\u2019ve taken a vote. We had a vote in progress. There was no party vote called for, and I have approved the vote and we are now going to move on Part 2. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6c54526934a413f934e8df5d0add4fb\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Can I please make sure that the mike is on next time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226177710f72d1458dbdaa5a29809001ab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e87ae135ff8b415ba7398f0795625e59\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001026\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a973a6ba04d349a6962f307fcb8fc223\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002213f29f79e7a448d6afd287485e91b0ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213f29f79e7a448d6afd287485e91b0ce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 9 to 20, \u201CAmendments to other legislation\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022696acd2d87884bf3b8335865b5241467\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022696acd2d87884bf3b8335865b5241467\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair, and thank you for the opportunity now to look towards Part 2. A lot of the contribution that\u2019s already been made in the committee\u2014certainly from this side of the Chamber\u2014has talked about some of the nervousness amongst some of the M\u0101ori forestry owners. My question, with respect to Part 2, looks towards clause 11(3), where it says, \u201CIn section 4(4), repeal the new definitions of \u2018misconduct\u2019, \u2018threshold volume\u2019, and \u2018unsatisfactory conduct\u2019.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI have read through that particular legislation, the Forests (Legal Harvest Assurance) Amendment Act 2023, and I\u2019ve got comfort with what it\u2019s proposing here. What is also, however, in that particular section, though, is the definition of terms like \u201Cmarae\u201D, and when I think about the caution that has been expressed from this side of the House with respect to M\u0101ori land owners and M\u0101ori forestry owners, and the example and the interpretation given for marae and the way that forests actually grow up against marae\u2014and my colleague and relation H\u016Bhana Lyndon knows this particular example very well. The Matawaia Marae, for example, which is built in the Ng\u0101ti Hine forest, has the forest hard up against the marae. Now, I suspect that some might say it was coincidence, but the argument that\u2019s being put forward by landowners and forestry growers in this specific area talked about it being more by good planning than by coincidence. The first question I have for the Minister is whether he can give an assurance that the interpretation of \u201Cmarae\u201D in respect to forests and the way that we harvest against marae will continue to be protected and that the interpretation won\u2019t change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy next question for the Minister is on clause 13, and, in part, this is related to my question in Part 1. New section 6(3)(1A), in clause 13, inserts these new terms into the legislation, and what it\u2019s done here is it has got rid of what would normally be in paragraph\u00A0(e), which is about acting under a delegation. Members might recall that I spoke very briefly about whether or not the Minister would retain the ability to delegate, and he addressed it in part. This one here, however, with respect to clause 13, continues to talk about the protection of forestry officers, etc., and it does offer the words that will be now inserted into the legislation, but I\u00A0 ask whether or not the Minister would keep what is in there, which is section 6(3)(1A)(e), which is about those powers of delegation. I know one is a bit of the cart before the horse, and this is why I\u2019m asking whether or not the Minister will consider keeping paragraph (e) in that particular piece of the legislation. Those are my two questions for the Minister at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022d27710056e4f4365b3e4b49933208cda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d27710056e4f4365b3e4b49933208cda\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. When we come to Part 2, it specifically looks at the amendments to the Forests (Legal Harvest Assurance) Amendment Act, and I think one of the things that\u2019s really important for this bill overall is the way that it crosses over with the primary legislation. In this case, with the Forests (Legal Harvest Assurance) Amendment Act, it\u2019s really important to tease out and get clarification from it, because I think that even for us, who are looking at this, we are constantly trying to do that level of cross-reference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy first question on this is to do with clause 10(1), which replaces section 2(1)(a) with \u201C1\u00A0August\u00A02027\u201D, and this is just going to be quite a straightforward question to the Minister. The primary legislation, and the principal Act in this part, says that section 2(1)(a) states, \u201C3 years after this Act receives the Royal assent\u201D, which would be 2026, and I guess I would like to know from the Minister the rationale why we are pushing it out for one more year as a result of the repeal of this system\u2014I\u2019m seeing shaking heads up there. This is why we really need that level of clarification, because there are so many cross-overs here. So let\u2019s broaden it, and just say: could the Minister clarify why the date was changed from \u201C3\u00A0years after this Act receives the Royal assent\u201D to \u201C1\u00A0August\u00A02027\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbe022ff85714f70b22cf7ea5bd5d212\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbe022ff85714f70b22cf7ea5bd5d212\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to ask the Minister a question on this. I have a question to the Minister around the definition of \u201Cpractice standards\u201D: \u201Cwith \u2018practice standards\u2019 in relation to legal harvest, means the practice standards set under section 158\u201D. With this new definition of practice standards, is it just simply bringing into line what was in Part 1, \u201CAmendments to Forests Act 1949\u201D, or under the amendment to the Forests (Legal Harvest Assurance) Amendment Act, what are those new practice standards going to be? Why have we changed the definition? I\u2019d appreciate if the Minister could give us an example of why and what the purpose of that has been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u0022faa4ee04c34f4923aec465b80df9c0d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faa4ee04c34f4923aec465b80df9c0d7\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a764faf04a864a53b00803826de32b0c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Madam Chair, we were waiting for the Minister to answer questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278544dc4692a483f87b2e8fca5376577\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: We were waiting for the Minister to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227b4f815d10224d059941ddf33856ea0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b4f815d10224d059941ddf33856ea0a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no obligation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c678da478904d3797f672b1991da60b\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: She didn\u2019t take it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226321837b5beb416885982a83cdd9b017\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I haven\u2019t taken the closure motion yet. But the member putting the closure motion was the only person standing on their feet, and I have\u2014it\u2019s up to the Minister, as he gets up to answer the questions, OK? So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216913538d58248968d940a8d1be17a35\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Apologies, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec7a2dca154a4f818d6e9aadb6edb3f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s OK. I\u2019m going to call the Hon Dr Deborah Russell, if she still wants a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022e90885f575cf454f81bbfbcfe81517e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e90885f575cf454f81bbfbcfe81517e4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, Madam Chair, I do want to ask some questions about Part 2 of this bill. Part 2 of the bill is actually the bit that has a whole lot of schedules that change other parts of the law. Now, as someone who is rather new to this, I think I can go to Subpart 2 of Part 2\u2014excuse me, I\u2019m sorry. I\u2019m just struggling a little bit here\u2014and in terms of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d314da0731a4817988c8a63de0861d7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member please talk into the microphone? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022760ae66e3ee94bbfa8cc12c253280c7e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I am sorry, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2b8e6861aee4e068e8b1a481d1f01b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member please move back to her seat so that the microphone can pick her up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d6dace21d004d67887ca001d6525184\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to go to Subpart 2 under Part 2\u2014could someone just direct me to it? I\u2019m just finding it a little hard to find it in the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d10fede8f1d43cdb02fbaa359ab082d\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s Part 2, just after Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022901a0b394a8e44a2bf7f4831cfebd10d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I am looking for it\u2014I am looking for it. Oh, I\u2019ve got it here, Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdbd0fb1b01149cbb1a4743ea553a3bb\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: On the wrong bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ee51a9ca2374bbfb0b9190769302444\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019ve got the right bill in my hands. We\u2019re just trying to make sure we actually give the Minister an opportunity to reconsider whether or not he\u2019ll actually answer any of the questions. So going to Subpart\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d11c934cf7ea4fe3a51f4a2987808315\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a good question so far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220202940859884d19a474dcdb5912bf07\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I know, I\u2019m working on it\u2014oh Subpart 2. Thank you, Peeni. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a whole lot of secondary legislation that is being revoked, and I noticed that sitting in there is an instrument, Subpart 2\u2014so it\u2019s clause 18 of this bill, and we\u2019re going to paragraph (d). we\u2019re going to the partial waiver of fees and levies for certain classes of applicants for registration as and registered log traders and advisers, and so on. It\u2019s a partial waiver of the fees and the levies in this Subpart 2. I am interested to know exactly what is the partiality there\u2014how much it was a partial amount. Clearly, some of those fees are remaining. So if I could just get some explanation from the Minister as to that amount, the division in the parts, and how they arrived at that amount. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022726258a88d5449b8bbe2f689a1d74bb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022726258a88d5449b8bbe2f689a1d74bb9\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, it\u2019s lucky trees take 25\u00A0years to grow before we harvest them. The point that I guess I would make to colleagues is that this is the narrowest part of the bill, but I think it\u2019s the most important part of the legislation\u2014Part 2\u2014and the reason for that is we\u2019ve taken on obligations internationally, as well as under domestic statute, around legal harvest, and so we have agreements around the world and trade agreements and so on that we have to adhere to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThis is a part of the original legislation. Actually, it\u2019s a system we\u2019d set up so that we can give assurance to trading partners overseas that when logs are cut down and exported from New Zealand and sold, we\u2019d meet the requirements we\u2019ve taken on internationally, but, again, amongst our domestic legislation also, and, ultimately, the changes the member is asking about are not significant in the scheme of how we achieve this. But the one thing\u00A0we are doing is pushing the date out by slightly more than a year, and the reason we\u2019re\u00A0doing that is so that, one, we can ensure that in establishing the new system in New Zealand, which the previous piece of legislation allows us to do, we get it right through consultation with all of the groups the members have mentioned, from iwi to landowners\u2014across the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESecondly, we also want to have the opportunity to engage with a number of international stakeholders\u2014countries we trade with\u2014to make sure that what we stand up through regulation meets their requirements also. So we\u2019ve said that we want to give ourselves almost another year to be able to do that, but we\u2019ve also said that it is a year, or it could enter into force sooner, through Order in Council. So we\u2019re not saying it enters into force on that day\u20141\u00A0August\u00A02027\u2014but we\u2019re saying that it must be by that day, or before, by Order in Council. But we want to give ourselves time to be able to engage widely within New Zealand to make sure that, one, we achieve the obligations that we have and achieve the intention of the primary legislation, and then, secondly, that, actually, it will fit with what we\u2019re doing elsewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAlthough this isn\u2019t part of the bill, by way of an example of the reason we want to do this, some members will know that the European Union has passed legislation previously about exports to their market and the impact that any exports\u2014food, as an example, or trees\u2014to the European Union has upon the equivalence of legal harvest. So we want to go through a process with them because what they are looking to do would place great cost on New Zealand, because the things they\u2019re trying to stop are not able to take place legally in New Zealand, and so, actually, our standards are the same or better than theirs. But the legal harvest provisions of this, when the system stands up, will perhaps give us an opportunity to show them that, actually, they don\u2019t need to check everything New Zealand does, because we take our obligations seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EBut, again, this is the narrowest part of the bill. The changes here, where it allows us to consult more, and the other changes around wording, and so on, are to ensure that this legislation and\u2014from Part 1\u2014the bits that we are relying upon in as far as our definitions are concerned allow us to continue to do our work properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00228d5d082e0d9f4c71afeef50919130a0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d5d082e0d9f4c71afeef50919130a0a\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224883bda2d8fd4fb99210d47dd8160f36\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f58ff4335e3a44da9ba435d1dd83c972\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ffcd94fd3bf8425aa714f2c23040a99e\u0022\u003ESchedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9488ed322d3469199602fe7f65ce521\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9488ed322d3469199602fe7f65ce521\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the Schedule. There is no debate on the Schedule. The question is that the Schedule stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022be12d836cd444f6da99f62f1542c8ae0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e913fe165a5f465b9ce8521e98570ccf\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221f35bbe075954eb9b615d4133fdc003c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f35bbe075954eb9b615d4133fdc003c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate. This is clause 1 and 2. The debate is on the title and commencement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00221e6cc7549dee4b72b21d45b4e18f6ec8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e6cc7549dee4b72b21d45b4e18f6ec8\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Madam Chair, just because of the way that we\u2019ve pushed this particular legislation through and the narrow scope with which Parts 1 and 2 were debated, I think I\u2019m going to capture the energy in the room and the comments that were made throughout\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022091ab1996e7542fab51ea59c4b4155c6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That would be good, because I was waiting for\u00A0some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b011d5e276248cfb015e5b7ca45e813\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014about the progress of this particular bill this evening. When I think of the title and I think of the process from whence the legislation was first put in place, or the regime was first put in place, and then where we are now today, repealing it, why don\u2019t I offer a title for the committee to consider, and perhaps it could be the \u201CForests (Matua Shane Jones Changed Tack) Bill\u201D\u2014I don\u2019t know. Now, I\u2019ll just let that one sit there and let it ruminate amongst all the members in the Chamber, as what we\u2019ve discussed here is reasonably small, but it has a huge impact on the forestry sector. So when we look towards and we explain why we\u2019ve made these amendments to some of those\u2014perhaps the small and medium sized forestry owners\u2014that have been mentioned at length here this evening, perhaps that particular title might be something that can give them a bit more clarity about what\u2019s happening here this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe other part, of course, is clause 2, which is talking about the commencement date. The Minister made clear the programme ahead of us\u2014August\u00A02027, if I recall correctly. I\u00A0do put to the Minister, though, that just for the sake of the committee of the whole House, and for those listening at home, whether or not he could just one more time make it very clear about the date that he mentioned in 2027, the time in between, and the process that will take place, and say why it is important that everyone understands when this Act comes into force, after the day of Royal assent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022f547d19e04704b8f8ea82f9bace0433a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f547d19e04704b8f8ea82f9bace0433a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. When we\u2019re looking at this, I appreciate what the Minister has mentioned before, which was that this bill itself has a very narrow scope. But, as we have heard through the committee of the whole House stage, this particular bill actually has much broader implications when it comes to the revocation of the log traders and forestry advisers regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo I think a more appropriate title in this case should be the \u201CForests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal Without Considering Broader Context) Amendment Bill\u201D, because in this case we have mentioned on multiple occasions the workers in terms of the health and safety component from the imbalance and the inequity we\u2019re seeing with our forestry, going from small forestry\u2014and, again, going back to the supplementary analysis report which said that the people who benefit are going to be log exporters and trade entities but that the main costs would come to small-forest owners. I think this has a much broader implication than what the Minister has mentioned, so I would really encourage the Minister to consider seriously, when we are looking at the title, broadening it out to the scope that is not just simply looking at this but it is looking at the complete ecosystem that it would affect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWith that, I genuinely think that we should be looking at, potentially, in terms of the title, something that is more along the lines of the \u201CForests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal and What is Going to Happen to our Industry?) Amendment Bill\u201D. I just feel that in this case the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8cbaedc6c8945ffbaf0aedcb8b78fc7\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s like country\u2014it\u2019s quite a catchy one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e298dc7598b0444b887b54ceb5257ecf\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: And I really appreciate the Minister\u2019s engagement and advice on a lot of these areas, but, really, we haven\u2019t been able to get a straight answer from the Minister on the broader implications that the repeal of this will create.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022823565ed249e41ffac2fc71777c649b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022823565ed249e41ffac2fc71777c649b4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we need to be careful\u2014I\u2019m going to call on the Hon Todd McClay, but I just think we need to be careful that the suggestions for the title don\u2019t put the scope of the bill out of the scope of the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022432a5c5707924f08bc24951f8ad39ed6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022432a5c5707924f08bc24951f8ad39ed6\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E To the last speaker, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, the public had such great hope and expectation when he came here, and, so, we\u2019ll work on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ELook, I guess the point of this is, actually\u2014and, to the Hon Peeni Henare, I did consider a change to the name and I thought it could have been the \u201CHon Shane Jones (Thank You) Bill\u201D, because, actually, what Shane Jones did four years ago was send a very clear signal to the sector that they should take responsibility for themselves and, actually, there is a need for legislation or regulation where they don\u2019t. In the intervening period of time, as a result of the great foresight of Shane Jones four years ago, the sector has stepped up. It has taken the responsibility and has said that they want to do that for themselves\u2014firstly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESecondly, we could also call it the \u201CShane Jones (Getting Rid of Additional Costs) Bill\u201D. It\u2019s not necessary, I suppose, because the cost of this legislation or regulation on the sector is greater than the benefit that\u2019s being derived, and so that\u2019s the reason that it\u2019s coming away. So a heartfelt thanks to Shane Jones because he\u2019s a man of great, great vision, and we should recognise that collectively in the House by unanimously supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe final point in as far as the entry into force upon Royal assent, the part that is being repealed happens straight away so we can give money back to those that have paid it and we can get absolute certainty and we don\u2019t have to send out more invoices. Around legal harvest, we\u2019re pushing the date out for the new system to enter into force to 1\u00A0August\u00A02027 to give ourselves time, appropriately, to engage very broadly and widely with stakeholders in New Zealand and international stakeholders. But it could well come into force before that by Order in Council, should that work have been done, and in the third reading speech, I\u2019ll be able to talk a lot more about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed1704030ecf4111a079fe93e550f782\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed1704030ecf4111a079fe93e550f782\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225eafdec711324bca95e4d8808c579383\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b77f0ad9a023448aa59f6f0c7aecf969\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c2fef44a8e949b49c76638ec6c0c595\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001080\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001081\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002223d845b7dde64e0e9fed70343c941596\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223d845b7dde64e0e9fed70343c941596\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2b333075fc74a109f4f71e2da9e01c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2b333075fc74a109f4f71e2da9e01c8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da0dcc13261344b190f23997184d5ce5\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfa9c692e2134a0aa079e67a711fc464\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfa9c692e2134a0aa079e67a711fc464\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe Government has set ambitious goals to reduce Public Service spending through identifying and cutting wasteful spending while removing unnecessary red tape from being put on business. This bill will play its part in helping to achieve these goals for the forestry sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EWhilst the administration of this regulation system was designed to be fully cost recovered, there has been a lower number of registrations than originally anticipated. This, along with the need to continue resourcing the delivery of the system, has meant the Crown has not fully cost recovered the registration system to date, nor does it look like it will be able to, under the current settings. It\u2019s anticipated that the ongoing annual operating cost to run the system will be approximately twice as much as received from those currently registered. Therefore, the system is using Crown funds to remain functional. This does not align with the Government\u2019s priorities, another reason the repeal has been a priority for the forestry portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAs for the legal harvest assurance scheme, I want to ensure the full engagement with international trading partners and the sector is delivered so that we can ensure market access is achieved in perpetuity whilst making the system as simple and cost-effective as possible for the sector. Extending the commencement date will ensure this can be achieved in order to provide a durable, fully cost recovered system that does not cost the Crown and that benefits all participants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ERegarding any potential concerns that members may have around removing the registration system for log traders and forestry advisers, I want to make it known that I do support the intention of the registration system; I just don\u2019t agree that more than self-regulation is required to achieve these ambitions. As I mentioned in my previous speeches in other stages of the legislation, I consider the New Zealand Institute of Forestry\u2019s (NZIF) voluntary registration system for forestry advisers is a better pathway for people to register as forestry advisers, and for others to look for the expertise that they need. I encourage those already registered with the NZIF to retain their membership, and others to look towards joining the sector body.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESeparate from this, but, as Minister for Trade, I\u2019m committed to growing the export value of forestry, just as with every other part of the economy, supporting the growth of the wood-processing industry, removing unnecessary regulation, and providing certainty as a big part of enabling this. Ultimately, the repeal is one part of ensuring that we can get the policy settings right to support the sector, to expand, to innovate, to unlock investment, and to trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI intend to publicly announce our strategic direction\u2014indeed, I have publicly announced a strategic direction for the forestry and wood-processing sector just a few weeks ago at Fieldays. It has the aim to help restore confidence and support investment that we need in forestry and in wood processing. Through supporting the sector to expand, innovate, unlock investment and trade, we can double the value of our exports, provide higher-paying jobs, help meet our climate change obligations, and support land-use resilience and adaptation. The registration system regulations do not support these outcomes, and, therefore, there is no reason for them to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ECan I thank all members in the debate on all sides of the House. Whilst not everybody is supporting the legislation, the questions that were raised and comments were reasonable. Can I reach out to the Hon Peeni Henare and thank him and the Labour Party for their support today. The House, by a very large majority, is supporting the New Zealand forestry sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225e85c3c5e59b4df0b4943b28fb788f53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e85c3c5e59b4df0b4943b28fb788f53\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. No, sorry\u2014yeah, that\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. The Hon Peeni Henare\u2014I was just making sure I had the words right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002244bb042c96544a0aac20469d8cf432a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244bb042c96544a0aac20469d8cf432a4\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Fantastic, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s always important that we get things right\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022254268220ae044dba2da4c26b185b257\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9fd3166b39e427a93b26dfb117e5d14\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which is why we\u2019re here this evening. I want to acknowledge the Minister, the Hon Todd McClay, who reached out and, with the support of the industry, made it very clear why getting these things right is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ETo the Minister\u2019s credit, we were very clear that we would still prosecute a number of matters; we will still continue to push the Labour position on forestry while also supporting this bill. That\u2019s important because it is very clear, Labour\u2019s position when it comes to forestry, and the Minister touched on a number of those matters in his third reading speech\u2014that is that we do want to see more logs, more raw timber products processed and developed here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI mentioned it earlier: that all members of the House have driven past the port and said, \u201CWhy are there so many logs sitting there in raw form ready to be exported overseas?\u201D, and then thought, \u201CWe want to have jobs, we want to grow the economy here locally, and why don\u2019t we continue to do more of that manufacturing and wood processing here in New Zealand?\u201D The Labour Party has been staunch supporters of that. In fact, during our time in Government, we set aside quite a large amount of money in order to support those aspirations that small communities have to be able to process the timber that is around them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m always reminded, when I think of forestry, about one example\u2014and I\u2019m going to be very careful about the names. I won\u2019t mention the names, but it\u2019s an example that I\u2019m sure resonates with every member in this House. Not too long ago, in a staunch forest community by the way of planters, harvesters, and processors, a new community building was opened. All of the materials used to build that building were imported from Australia, and that building was erected in one of the biggest forestry towns in this country. To me, that\u2019s ludicrous. To me, that doesn\u2019t make sense. To me, we want to show the forestry sector that we support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI support the Minister\u2019s push towards growing our exports and log value offshore\u2014I think that\u2019s a good thing. But I do want to highlight one of the things that came to my attention last year, in July, when the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins led a trade delegation to China and we noticed\u2014and it was made very clear to us\u2014that, in particular for M\u0101ori land owners who have forests, we are over-invested in this space, and that the risk that it exposes M\u0101ori land owners and M\u0101ori forestry owners to was great, it was significant, and couldn\u2019t go without clear direction about where that particular sector is heading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI believe that, in passing this bill this evening, we are providing that to the sector. We\u2019re allowing the sector to create a registration system. As the Minister has already mentioned, there is another example that he favours, but we\u2019re going to put that in the hands of the sector to say, \u201CThat\u2019s fine, but let\u2019s make sure that we get it right this time.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re also saying, though, is that in entrusting the sector to do this, we want to encourage the sector not simply to meet with the big owners\u2014not simply to meet with the big operators\u2014but to meet with the small to medium sized owner-operators, growers right across this country. I think that\u2019s a really important step to make sure that we do have a system that works for the entire sector, not just for the big players. I respect the big players\u2014the role they play in leading our industry\u2014but we know there are a large number of small-forest owners, medium-sized forest owners, who are looking to be part of the action that is really important to the forestry sector as we export our logs overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI do want to also reiterate our point for the Labour Party about the protection of indigenous species and making sure that we\u2019re not feeding into a black market offshore. The Minister made it very clear that, in his role as trade Minister, he\u2019ll continue to promote our forestry products offshore, and I totally support that. What we can\u2019t support, though, is the illegal trade of indigenous species of timber from New Zealand into black markets\u2014and I\u2019m sure every member in this House will agree\u2014and we want to continue, as the Labour Party, to reiterate that point through the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe other point we want to make: the term \u201Ccowboys\u201D was used regularly throughout the debate, we want to make sure that we have a good system that certainly doesn\u2019t see the increase or the rise of cowboys in the sector, but that continues to support the growth in the forestry sector, to make sure that, in the future, no cowboys can come back. Others, as my colleague described it, someone with a ute and a laptop could go up and offer services to somebody who might not have the full expertise to be able to export their logs and simply be taken advantage of. We can\u2019t tolerate that, and we want to make sure\u2014and\u00A0I\u2019ve said it throughout the progress of this bill\u2014that we want to support the Minister in what he said about how we can look towards having a robust system moving forward. But we will need to continue to ensure that those safeguards are in place so that people aren\u2019t taken advantage of. I take the Minister at his word in his assurances that we will be able to make sure that those safeguards between now and the August\u00A02027 date will continue to keep our sector safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to make: the forestry sector relies on security and long-term vision. However, it doesn\u2019t mean it isn\u2019t impacted by the influx of the market. It doesn\u2019t mean that it isn\u2019t impacted by what is and has been a fair amount of instability in the log exports for this country. It has been challenging. What we\u2019ve seen in places like China was best described to me by one forestry owner as \u201Ca turning down of the tap\u201D or of the volume that they\u2019re looking towards\u2014knowing full well that we export large amounts of wood product into China.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo we want to make sure that we can actually look towards protecting those markets while also looking towards growing more markets, and doing so in the right way, knowing full well that those who do trade with New Zealand with respect to logs as we export them out of this country, come to New Zealand because they like our reputation when it comes to the way that we grow forests\u2014the way that we trade in logs offshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI do want to, though, reiterate that as we do that, it would be remiss if the Labour Party didn\u2019t mention the health and safety of those workers who work in the forestry sector. We are the Labour Party\u2014it\u2019s what we\u2019ve stood for: protecting workers to make sure that the reputation that foreign buyers look towards our forestry sector, they know that they\u2019ve got a strong reputation here in New Zealand that can continue to be protected into the future. We can\u2019t see workers going to work and not coming home. That\u2019s just not the way we do things in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy final comment is to our families on the East Coast at the moment. They\u2019ve been hit so many times over the past 18 months by huge weather events. We know the forestry sector is a big part of the economy on the East Coast. We hope that the bill that we\u2019re passing here this evening may help the forestry sector\u2014in particular on the East Coast, but right across the country\u2014to be able to rebound from what has been a difficult time. Our thoughts and our hearts go out to those on the East Coast as they continue to be pounded by rain, and make sure that we in this House can support them to recover, and I believe the forestry sector is one of those sectors that will help them to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe support this bill and we look forward to supporting the Minister in making sure that the safeguards that were mentioned by the Minister throughout the passage of this bill will continue to protect the sector\u2014a sector this country needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00221f2a22a114f2469b91dceb3d78470e7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f2a22a114f2469b91dceb3d78470e7b\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I stand on behalf of Te R\u014Dp\u016B K\u0101k\u0101riki to maintain our ongoing opposition and our concerns, because, ultimately, it was our colleagues from Labour, and our Matua Shane, who brought the original legislation into this House. So I need to remind the House that, actually, it was brought in for a reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThere was a call from our people, with widespread support within the pre-consultation and the consultation, for the register to be established to provide regulations and protections for the sector and for landowners, and to provide a credible register where we could go and find the smorgasbord of advisers available to us when we needed to purchase services. So, as I was sitting here listening in the House, I did a google, and I checked out, actually, how awesome the website is for the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI), with nearly 500\u00A0pages of registered advisers. It\u2019s quite cool. If you go on there, you can see their name, you can see their location, and you can see what they\u2019re registered for, their hap\u016B iwi affiliations, and how to contact them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, I know that we\u2019ve spoken tonight about \u201CLet\u2019s hand it back to the industry. They\u2019ve got the model.\u201D\u2014yep, it\u2019s the New Zealand Institute of Forestry, and I mihi to their many years of mahi. For us, in Tai Tokerau, we have nine registered New Zealand Institute of Forestry advisers on that list. But, certainly, it\u2019s voluntary, and that\u2019s the risk when we go back to it being voluntary, because, as I shared earlier in the piece, we had 10 to 12\u00A0percent of advisers within the sector registered in the voluntary system, and now we have over 500 through the regulations brought in by my colleagues from Labour and our good old Matua Shane. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s reflect on the need for a sector to be strong, to be robust, and to be credible and transparent, and that was the original intent of this legislation. It was to provide regulation to support both the growth of the industry and to provide a record of who\u2019s who in the zoo, and then also know their credentials and their experience to support us on the ground. We won\u2019t have that anymore, so I\u2019m looking forward to working with the Minister and seeing the consultation that takes place, because it can\u2019t all be for the big players. You have to remember rural New Zealand. In the Cabinet advice in 2022, it said that \u201CA well-functioning forestry and wood-processing sector supports rural communities to thrive.\u201D\u2014this was an in-confidence paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori also, during this process, in pre-consultation as well as the consultation, raised the need for transparency as to who\u2019s trading our logs and who\u2019s providing the forestry advice. M\u0101ori also said, \u201CWe need to see the disclosure of conflicts of interest.\u201D\u2014and that\u2019s always important, eh, for transparency. The registration process that MPI was administering provided a robust system whereby we could put forward complaints and concerns, and see an external party then go forward and look to facilitate or mediate a process for the parties. Now, we\u2019re going back to the centre to self-regulate, so we have high trust now, and I think that\u2019s part of the disappointment. It is that we had only just started to implement this system to bring in a robust and rigorous registration process and provide additional safety and security to those of us on the ground to be able to inquire and look for those professionals who can support us in making robust decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EBut that\u2019s OK\u2014we move forward, and we ask for the Minister to come to the North, and let\u2019s have some more hui. Let\u2019s have some more hui within the sector and landowners, because there are nine registered advisers through the New Zealand Institute of Forestry, but let\u2019s grow those numbers. How do we transition those 500-odd on the MPI list across? What are those transition arrangements so that we can support them into an industry-led system, because when they go back to being voluntary, they may not register. So those are some of the concerns and the worries, I think, in terms of being a land administrator, as to how we can get robust advice in the sector and in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EAs my whanaunga and colleague Peeni spoke to, again, one of the key purposes was to save our value and keep our value within the k\u0101inga\u2014particularly for wood processors\u2014and to see whare built from our wood. That remains a goal. So, in terms of the advice that we would receive, for those of us preparing for harvest, it would be my hope that through this new system and through the transition that we\u2019re going to see and the consultation that\u2019s going to roll out, we will know as to how we can get robust advice for landowners to ensure that they\u2019re engaging the right people to do the work at the right time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EFinally, in terms of the Green Party position, we always think that it\u2019s good to have a robust system in place\u2014something that is well consulted on\u2014and because this bill has come through in urgency, we are missing out on the voice of the people. We are missing out on the robust consultation and sending it into select committee to actually hear from the people on the ground. So one of the failures that we have in this urgency process is that\u2019s it\u2019s gone so quickly, we\u2019ve missed the opportunity to hear from community, from landowners, and from the industry themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWe can only look to anecdotal k\u014Drero, like myself, last night, sitting in Kawakawa and in Kait\u0101ia, talking to M\u0101ori land owners about this proposed repeal\u2014of which the feedback that I got from the land administrators, or the owners, that I spoke to was like, \u201COh, why are they doing that? Is it needed?\u201D, and I said, \u201CWell, actually, that\u2019s a really good question. I can\u2019t tell you why they\u2019re doing it, but they said it\u2019s about red tape. So they\u2019re taking away the red tape.\u201D But, for us on the ground, whether we\u2019re in Kait\u0101ia, Kawakawa, Moerewa, or even in Whangaruru\u2014where I\u2019m from, and I administer a block\u2014we want to get good advice. So my challenge is: will our advice continue to be robust, who is going to be the caretaker and the independent person who will be the mediator when push comes to shove and complaints are made, and how can we grow a good system that is industry-led\u2014because that\u2019s where we\u2019re going\u2014and ensure that there are protections in place for the time of harvest and processing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D t\u0101ku e mihi atu ana ki te Whare; ahakoa te tere hoki o \u0113nei mahi a te K\u0101wanatanga ki runga i a m\u0101tou, kei konei te R\u014Dp\u016B K\u0101k\u0101riki e whakah\u0113 tonu ana i t\u0113nei pire. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[All I need to do is acknowledge the House; despite the incredible haste of these actions of the Government upon us, here the Green Party remains in opposition to this bill. Thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002206cfca03f9f54f7780dfc95dd9d75814\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206cfca03f9f54f7780dfc95dd9d75814\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I enjoy these debates. Thank you very much, by the way, for the opportunity to speak in this third reading on this piece of legislation and litigate some of the points made by the Green member H\u016Bhana Lyndon and sort of highlight the fact that I think they\u2019re sort of Noddy-no-mates in this instance\u2014they\u2019re out on a limb. This is a good piece of legislation. I mean, they always seem to advocate for the little guy, and the little guy\u00A0in rural New Zealand absolutely loves legislation like this. We would argue it\u2019s making life in rural New Zealand a little bit less onerous. I, for the life of me, can\u2019t reconcile a lot of the remarks that seem somewhat contradictory, given we are having a debate in this third reading about the premise of the legislation and who it actually helps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThe primary industry sector\u2019s worth billions of dollars\u2014I think we\u2019ve all reconciled that. The forestry sector, as we sit here today, is the fourth-largest one. It is worth billions of dollars, and I think you would all agree\u2014and Green members included\u2014that we would like to see, as the Government has asserted, a doubling of revenue export earnings inside the next decade. Well, I make the point: in the absence of this legislation, should it not come to pass, what\u2019s the Greens\u2019 vision of the forestry sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI just want to touch on one point that H\u016Bhana Lyndon did raise about the trust mechanism that would be needed for the sector to self-regulate. Well, I\u2019ll just make the point\u2014and I think some of the other members may agree with me in this House\u2014I really trust Kiwis. They\u2019re bloody good people. They work exceptionally hard in rural New Zealand to make a bread, to make a crust, to add a bit of coin to their community. For the life of me, I cannot reconcile why the Green member who\u2019s just sat down, resumed her seat, wouldn\u2019t support that reality. I think her arguments\u2014respectfully to the member\u2014are poor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThis is a great piece of legislation. We, as a Government, campaigned on reducing the red tape for everyday Kiwis. Our colleagues on the left\u2014the Labour Party, by virtue of that narrative\u2014they\u2019ve seen the light; not always, but they\u2019ve certainly seen it here. And this emboldens that outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI just want to touch on the remarks from the Hon Peeni Henare when he did highlight that iwi M\u0101ori are big investors in this industry. Well, \u201CGo them.\u201D is what I say, because they are some of the hardest-working people in New Zealand\u2014and how dare we stand in their way? The disestablishment of the registration system that puts a trust model back into the equation to me, to the ACT Party, to every other party, excluding our mates in the Greens who are on a limb, is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a402d8f1fd74e46b95f1ffe7af583a1\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Because we\u2019re principled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b83c7bd3af304d379064e9887f7550b2\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would argue that your principles, in this instance, are flawed. This is great for rural New Zealand. We absolutely support iwi M\u0101ori, small communities, and the foresters that this bill enables. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022b817c390c88e4f078e15dd8849cda56f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b817c390c88e4f078e15dd8849cda56f\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to also support this legislation through the third reading. It\u2019s legislation that\u2019s obviously a little bit complex for us because we were part of bringing into play this piece of legislation that\u2019s being repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThere were some issues within the sector that had been highlighted. There were some cowboys out there. It was a sector in need of a tidy up. But the solution that has come to pass, that we\u2019re repealing now, has proved to be relatively ineffective as far as we\u2019ve been able to ascertain, in regard that it\u2019s actually costing more than we\u2019re able to recover from it. There has been a tidy up, which has given Minister of Forestry McClay and the coalition Government the confidence to make a more voluntary, trust-based scheme available in terms of what\u2019s already out there with the New Zealand Institute of Forestry (NZIF) and the registration system that they have. As Mr Cameron just alluded to, a key theme within this coalition has been about cutting red tape, getting unnecessary regulatory burden away from the primary sector, and indeed the wider economy as a whole. This is core to the theme of what we are doing here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThe forestry industry is, as has been alluded to, a large contributor\u2014I think, some $6\u00A0billion to the New Zealand economy. But picking up on the comments of Peeni Henare, we absolutely do need to grow that through more value-add in New Zealand, and a manufacturing base\u2014regrowing that. There is some good stuff happening out there, as you get around. Indeed, it\u2019s not just timber; it is things like biofuels and biochar, and the like, that are other uses for timbers\u2014maybe not the premium cuts or slabs, but some of the offcuts and the slash, which is something, obviously, that\u2019s been of some concern in terms of making sure we\u2019d better do a job of tidying that up. So we are able to monetise some of that stuff as well. So Minister McClay and his\u2014we\u2019ll be keeping a very close eye on engaging with him on his plans to grow the sector, because we think there is a big swing back to natural fibres. There is quite a lot of flexibility in what you can do with timber beyond just building and framing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWithout further ado, I think that summarises New Zealand First\u2019s position. We do recognise that the previous legislation had been ineffective and had added cost. We\u2019re happy to support the Minister in repealing it, letting a higher-trust model, through the NZIF, be the industry standard, I guess. As someone who has sold forestry blocks before\u2014as the Green member H\u016Bhana Lyndon alluded to\u2014when you\u2019re doing that, you do have to get a trusted third party involved, or third parties, but that\u2019s not that hard. In rural New Zealand, you know who the good operators are\u2014you just talk to your neighbours, you talk to other people in the industry; they\u2019ll give you a short list of people for who you can go out and engage and get quotes and the like. So, probably, we had a solution looking for a problem, in that sense. So New Zealand First is happy to support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022525618a869ab4daa952f8856b07b7b95\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The next call is a split call, and I\u2019ve been advised by the M\u0101ori Party that there\u2019ll be two Green speakers with five minutes each. So I will call Steve Abel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00224051b69fb542402a9a8cfb4c794f098e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224051b69fb542402a9a8cfb4c794f098e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I appreciate having the opportunity to speak to this bill. I\u2019m sad to have to disagree with my colleague Mark Cameron, despite him being the chair of the best select committee in the House\u2014and my colleague Mark Patterson, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESelf-regulation looks like the original problem for which the registration of advisers was brought into place. The Minister said that the sector stepped up, and the sector stepped up because of the requirement of registration. It stepped up because it was made to step up by the laws that required them to fulfil the obligations of registration, to keep a track of the advice they were giving to small-forest operators. So the registration system actually protects the small operators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt is not uncommon in this country for us to register professional advisers. We do it for very good reason: the reason your mortgage broker has to be registered and has to be bound by a series of obligations. The reason your real estate agent, your dentist, your psychiatrist, your electrician need to be registered is to protect people who are ignorant of their practice, who do not know who is a good operator or a bad operator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIn an instance of advice to foresters who are small scale in regional areas, that is exactly why it\u2019s advantageous that the forestry advisers are registered, so that if they are giving poor advice\u2014and this poor advice could come at some cost to a small operator if they\u2019re advised to log their trees too soon, to prune them in an incorrect way, to plant them too densely or too far apart\u2014these sorts of advice decisions could add up to thousands of dollars\u2019 worth of lost value to a forest operator. The ability for that operator to have a recourse to a register that requires the adviser to have told that person\u2014kept a record of what advice they\u2019ve given\u2014is a protection for the small operator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI have some experience of the arboriculture industry in my efforts to protect urban trees, which is that when general tree protection was removed, arborists told me that the effect of that was to de-professionalise the industry, so you\u2019ve got a lot more cowboy operators. Anyone with a truck and a chainsaw could clamber up your tree for a handful of dollars and cut it down in a dangerous way or prune it in an ugly way. So the actual requirement of a professional register improves the general quality of work in the industry. It causes the industry to step up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhat is the burden that it causes for a professional who\u2019s serious about the practice that they offer, who has a profitable business, the $500 for registration? What is the burden for them? The burden is nominal, but the advantage to those small operators and those foresters can be quite significant. De-professionalisation of this industry is not a good thing. The reason that we will oppose this bill\u2014and we might be Noddy-no-mates, as Mr Cameron called us\u2014is because, on principle, we think that this is a way that we get a better-quality industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EAs our friends on the East Coast are once again grappling with the nightmare that is another massive weather event for them, they are no doubt wishing that the sort of requirements that might have seen better management of slash in the forestry sector over recent decades\u2014had they been in place sooner, had they not been weakened further this evening in this Parliament, then perhaps there would have been much less damage by the floods and the extreme weather events that we\u2019ve seen. So the Green Party will be opposing the repeal of this piece of legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5b34a08158a499fbd02c7c6d7b84ed1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5b34a08158a499fbd02c7c6d7b84ed1\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. There are a couple of things I would like to address regarding this bill, and particularly I want to draw from the committee stage, as we had some robust discussions around this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first thing is that this bill comes in two parts, and I kind of want to address the second part first, which is some of the amendments to the Forests (Legal Harvest Assurance) Amendment Act. One of the things that we do agree with is for Aotearoa to follow international standards and particularly some of our trade obligations. We\u2019re really appreciative of the Minister, the Hon Todd McClay, for highlighting some of the needs and some of the expectations that the Minister has set out in the process of this, in order to delay\u00A0that particular element by a year, and some of the goals that we are hoping to achieve. That is a good thing in itself. But, of course, this particular bill doesn\u2019t depend on just that one section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI want to draw attention to the first part of the bill, which is the amendments to the Forests Act. Again, we\u2019re looking at the repeal of the log traders and forestry advisers. We have already heard from my colleague, who, again, has personal experience when it comes to small forestry operations and when it comes to what it looks like for M\u0101ori forestry operators. This is something that has caught them by surprise. Part of the reason is, as we were discussing through the committee stage and we were talking about some of the repeal, there was no point where we were able to get some sort of reassurance that the urgency of this particular bill is needed. And the removal of the select committee stage and hearing from our communities, and particularly, in this case, hearing from our M\u0101ori communities, is to remove a necessary step. So that\u2019s something that we\u2019re kind of coming back to when we\u2019re looking at the principle of appropriate decision-making: those who may be most affected by the repeal have not had the real opportunity to feed into this. And I think it leaves a real question mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe already heard our hopes and aspirations, but in the current state it leaves a real question mark as to whether those small forest operators are going to be able to see the same level of robust advice and service they have come to know and appreciate over the last few years. So, when we are looking at this, we as the Green Party\u2014and also what we heard from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014cannot support this in its current form. Again, like many of the other pieces of legislation we\u2019re looking at when there is urgency, maybe there would have been room for us to reconsider if we were able to take that appropriate decision-making step of going through a select committee process. So, when we are looking at the broader implications of the forestry advisers, we have heard\u2014again, from our colleagues from Labour as well\u2014the aspirations we want to see. Hopefully, this is going to work out. It hasn\u2019t worked out before, which is why we had this scheme in the first place, but, hopefully, this time it will be different. So, again, there is this idea that there is this uncertainty. And I too echo others in the sense that I hope we are going to be seeing something different this time around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EJust to finish, when we are looking at this bill, the other thing that we haven\u2019t been able to get reassurance on is this idea of the levy. We understand that, when we are looking at removal of this, people who are currently paying for the levy no longer need to pay for the levy. But one of the questions we did ask\u2014and we didn\u2019t get a full response from the general committee stage as well\u2014was whether those levies needed to be refunded. One of the comments that you see again in the supplementary analysis report\u2014this is something that we didn\u2019t manage to tease out\u2014is that this is going to come under the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 baseline, and it\u2019s going to be a baseline of $0.6\u00A0million. So that\u2019s another thing that we haven\u2019t been able to get any form of reassurance on. Why do we need to refund it when the service has already been provided?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, there is still a lot of question marks to this bill, so we cannot support this in its current state. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u00220d952ee93c2f4cdeb48abca40835bc79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d952ee93c2f4cdeb48abca40835bc79\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, as a small forestry block owner, I\u2019m very pleased to support this bill through the House, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022331b0cdc047843eab1ac1e76fee20579\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022331b0cdc047843eab1ac1e76fee20579\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to rise and take a call in support of this piece of legislation, the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EBefore I begin my contribution, I would just like to acknowledge those on the East Coast that are suffering with the severe weather events that we\u2019re seeing unfold at the moment. And I know\u2014we all know, I guess\u2014that the forestry sector is a big part of industry on the East Coast, and I have no doubt that there\u2019ll be some serious impacts there with these weather events. So I do just want to acknowledge all those folk who are being affected by these severe weather events, and I hope that everyone stays safe during this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecf03430331d420da6d2794c03ee5a91\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Tautoko. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e714bf2216914f2ca9303995a715f481\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. This piece of legislation is an interesting piece of legislation and Labour does support it, but we do want to ensure that there are certain provisions continued during the time between now and 2027 when it commences, and we are really keen, as a party, to work with the Minister to support him and work towards getting some really good systems in place where this piece of legislation is concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation was introduced initially because it was something that the sector themselves were asking for. We\u2019ve had some, as we\u2019ve heard in the House tonight, terminology used around the word \u201Ccowboys\u201D in the industry. I think it was a way of the industry to, I guess, professionalise itself and put some safeguards in place for the sector, because we do know that we want this sector to be a prosperous sector. We want to support exports and we want to support our foresters, our loggers, our traders in all aspects of this area. It\u2019s really important for New Zealand because it brings in a large amount of money to the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWhat we have seen since this legislation was brought into place is that perhaps it hasn\u2019t achieved quite necessarily what it was intended to achieve. I note that the sector now itself, who had originally asked for this piece of legislation in the first place, are now asking for it to be repealed. I guess some of the reasons for that that we\u2019ve seen is that perhaps the size of the problem , or perceived problem, wasn\u2019t quite as large as it was anticipated. So I understand that it was initially thought that there was a huge amount, maybe thousands, of forestry advisers out there, but it seems that there\u2019s only, from what I have seen, been about 500 that have registered under this piece of legislation. I also note that, within the first couple of years of this legislation coming into place, there has only been two complaints and both of those were not upheld. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWhen I come back to the terminology around \u201Ccowboys\u201D, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the point that Minister Mark Patterson raised, as far as when there are cowboys in the sector, they don\u2019t tend to last very long in rural areas, because rural folk talk to rural folk, and you act as a cowboy at your own peril when it comes to those involved in the primary industries. You certainly\u2014not you, Madam Speaker, but cowboys\u2014will not last very long when it comes to that kind of behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI note that this piece of legislation also refunds fees or levies that have been paid under the system, and I guess that\u2019s fair, because I guess they weren\u2019t due to come into force until 1\u00A0July, and perhaps those that have been very keen or very organised may have already paid those fees. It is only fair that if this legislation is being repealed that they are refunded in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe idea of voluntary registration is an interesting one. I do think that, given that the sector originally asked for it, the sector are now asking for it to be repealed because they\u2019re not seeing the need or the necessity for it, as such, there is going to be a bit of an onus on the sector to ensure that those that are registered in a voluntary capacity continue to uphold the expectations and the professionalism that has been required of them should they have done it under the mandatory process. So I think that\u2019s just something that we need to really bear in mind\u2014that the professional responsibility is absolutely upheld, that there is a responsibility to their clients, and that there is professional work standards upheld by these forestry advisers, who are going to be doing this on a register on a voluntary basis. I mean, registering on a voluntary basis isn\u2019t a new concept. There are those that do that on a voluntary basis and provided by such as those in the building industry or the meat industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe do want to ensure, though, that WorkSafe practices are completely upheld. We know that this sector has been one that has been fraught over the years with tragic accidents and we do want to ensure that we reduce and continue to reduce those as much as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I wished to talk about is\u2014if I could just find my notes around this. Oh, yes, we talked a bit about the legal harvest assurances system\u2014that was the next point I wanted to get to\u2014because we do need to protect the industry. We need to protect our traders and those that are exporting the logs, to ensure that when they export, they can prove that they have legally harvested the timber, because it has been an issue for the sector for quite some time. I was part of the select committee that dealt with the legal harvest assurance system; it feels like it was quite some time ago now. But what we do know is that it has been a real issue in the past and we do want to ensure that whilst the reference to the forestry advisers in a registered capacity is removed from the legal harvest assurance bill, we do need to ensure that this is something that is still continued. I think that the Minister has said that this is an area that will still continue as it is, just simply with the removal of the advisers having been mandated to be registered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EOne of the things that has arisen from this, the advisers having to be registered, is that there\u2019s been the concern around the cost being passed on from that to the foresters and such. And that isn\u2019t fair when you consider that not all foresters are big, large corporate forests. There are a lot of small players in the industry, and if we can do whatever we can to ensure that they are not burdened with additional costs, then I think that that is good for us to do, because it is good for the sector, it is good for the economy, and it is good for the primary industries overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo, without further ado, we do support this piece of legislation, but we want to ensure that some of the things that I\u2019ve talked about, as far as concerns that we have as the Labour Party, on this side of the House, are taken into consideration, and I guess there will be the time to ensure that happens between now and the commencement date in 2027. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u00221744e86577f04d79af3dfdf42e9b8c99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221744e86577f04d79af3dfdf42e9b8c99\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Forestry is our fourth-largest exporter. These changes will support the forestry sector to boost export growth, and they will help rebuild our economy. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00228988f7a687354524bbbe947742be6430\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228988f7a687354524bbbe947742be6430\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, this is a strange little bill in many ways. It\u2019s not a huge imposition on the industry, but the National-led Government has decided that it\u2019s not for them, and, in our view, on balance, we\u2019ve got some concerns which we expressed in the committee stage about the health of the log industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI asked the Minister, as you may have heard, a number of questions about what non-legislative measures he will be taking to support the forestry and log-exporting industry generally. To be honest, I wasn\u2019t entirely satisfied with his answers, but I would really suggest that that\u2019s something we should be looking carefully at, because voluntary codes of conduct are all very nice\u2014well and good\u2014as are voluntary industry organisations. But we know that\u00A0they struggle. They struggle for technical support, they struggle for resources, but they serve an important purpose. So if that\u2019s the road that this Government\u2019s choosing to go down, I would suggest that that\u2019s really necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, the irony is that this was a New Zealand First initiative that Shane Jones pressed hard for. It probably shouldn\u2019t be called \u201Clog trading\u201D; it probably should be called the \u201CHorse Trading Bill\u201D because it sounds like that\u2019s actually what\u2019s gone on. Or perhaps the \u201CLog-barrel Politics Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294f5043c8274477391e478b4157cd41f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: What about \u201Clog rolling\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ebf71dc1d745df8195555c8553933b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, a bit of log rolling, indeed. It could be any number of those things, because, clearly, there\u2019s some deals that have been done on the other side of the House, and we know how desperate they are to cling on to power. [Interruption] The fact of the matter is that these\u2014well, you know, that\u2019s right, that Northcote seat\u2019s at risk. And there you go, Banks Peninsula. That\u2019ll be coming back home real soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ef8424bf174d6aa7fff4b64f06f4bd\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Especially with her pro-mining stance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022741bbf7f37e740529e2e5b7811d89c97\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s right. The mines on Banks Peninsula\u2014that\u2019ll go down real well. All those quarries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut the point, back to this bill, is that if the other side could have twigged, we are actually supporting this bill, because, on balance, we think it\u2019s probably the best thing to do. We do agree with the suggestion that we want as few costs associated in compliance costs as possible. For my own view, I think a dispute resolution framework was a good idea. The fact that the Government provided a quick, easy, and effective dispute resolution framework for people in the industry seems to be an effective thing, and it happens in a lot of other industries. But, at the same time, we have a much more comprehensive judicial framework, and there are other ways to resolve disputes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy friend and colleague Peeni Henare has certainly outlined the overall concerns we have about the health of the industry and the need to support it. But we don\u2019t want to be an obstructive Opposition; we want to be a constructive Opposition where appropriate. And, by a fine margin, this is one of those situations. The conduct of the industry is now in the hands of the Government. We\u2019ll be watching closely to make sure that it doesn\u2019t fall back, because, as has been said time and time again, there were some rogue traders there, there were traders who weren\u2019t doing the best by the industry, and there was a real problem with local industries\u2014local mills, in particular\u2014being squeezed out of the market by sharp practices by larger players. That\u2019s a concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a competition concern in there. And we know that a market with no constraints or controls doesn\u2019t work. These were some controls and, look, perhaps they weren\u2019t working as intended. That seems to be the case put by the Minister. But what we want to make sure is that we don\u2019t see a market which isn\u2019t a balanced one, where contracts aren\u2019t fair and reasonable, where some players abuse their power or position or knowledge, or where there\u2019s worse\u2014there\u2019s outright dishonesty where people are just setting themselves up and presenting by a web page and a fancy ute that they\u2019re a lot more knowledgeable, a lot more skilled, and have a lot more credentials than they actually do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo there are the risks. But we\u2019re supporting this bill because we want people to get on with it. So we will support this bill through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00222e3e7944bbe04ec29d4f186d1806d546\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e3e7944bbe04ec29d4f186d1806d546\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I invite all members to venture to the \u201CRiviera of the South\u201D, because if you visit PrimePort Timaru, you will see logs for Africa. Except they aren\u2019t for Africa; they are stuck on shore because bad rules and bad regulations stop things from happening. Red tape, green tape, insulation tape, sellotape, whatever kind of tape is jamming up the system, it has got to go, and that is what this bill does. It is a good bill. Shortly it will be a good Act. Let\u2019s get it done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa02ff92e12341f8bac81d548aa3231d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa02ff92e12341f8bac81d548aa3231d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That just summarised the ideology\u2014or \u201Cidiology\u201D\u2014of the Government of the day. I\u2019ll read out a couple of things here and one is from Dr Elizabeth Heeg, chief executive of the New Zealand Forest Owners Association. She says assurance schemes are important for maintaining integrity throughout the supply chain. She goes on to say that \u201Cthe registration scheme was meant to improve information across the forestry and woods processing supply chain, improve professional standards, and build greater confidence in the sector. Unfortunately, it has achieved the opposite\u2014delivering added cost rather than added value.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s have a look at the added cost. So what are we talking about? This is the fourth-biggest industry in our country\u2014fourth-biggest export sector. As I say, logs everywhere in Timaru, Wellington, Gisborne, you name it. So there was a regime where anyone with a ute and a computer could roll up to a farmer, see a few trees, and say, \u201CLook, we\u2019d like to buy those trees and we\u2019ll just put them into\u2014\u201D. The farmer might want a bit of cash and so they\u2019d say, \u201COK.\u201D No assurance; didn\u2019t know whether the guy was a crook or not. Others could roll up and say, \u201CLook, you should plant some trees there, you\u2019ll make a whole fortune, 10 percent return on equity. Great deal.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022948398a5c8a74bee94901c55aa17b7f7\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s the Labour whip? Tell him you\u2019re supporting the bill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e6c034c0ee4496b8b6b8ab04105b795\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: You didn\u2019t know whether that person was a crook or not. And, Minister Patterson, there is a classic because his mate Shane Jones had the wisdom and the vision to know that it should be tidied up\u2014it should be tidied up. Indeed, that\u2019s what he passed in 2022, and do you know what the cost\u2014and I\u2019ll come back to that, because all that regime did, according to the Government, was add cost. How much? For someone to register, $444, and $320 to renew\u2014annual fee. That small amount provided assurance through the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) for biosecurity standards that the trees came from the right place, that the people were paid, that we didn\u2019t have slave labour involved in the export of trees or the supply, because those requirements are core components of our right to export to many markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo the question I have for the Government\u2014in trying to reduce, through the passage of this legislation, the $444 that it costs for someone to register as a log trader able to trade millions and millions and millions of dollars of logs into markets that are sensitive to biosecurity requirements, sensitive to slave labour, sensitive to deforestation requirements\u2014and so we, the taxpayer, through MPI, will have to provide that assurance. We won\u2019t be receiving any money for it and we won\u2019t know who the person who\u2019s traded the logs has done. \u201COh, there\u2019ll be a voluntary scheme.\u201D; that\u2019s what they say. Well, Minister Patterson over there, he knows how effective voluntary schemes\u2014do you know why? Because he\u2019s currently intervening in a wool industry that has had a voluntary contribution to its future and development. Do you know what happened there? So can I say that I reluctantly, personally, support this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146c36b2734c49fd90284d4de768231c\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t have to\u2014you don\u2019t have to, Mr O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d3c8cb1db4b4c3f975b4b72917f19a8\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I do. As a party, we have decided that we\u2019ll side with the industry. The industry has asked to take away the huge burden of $444 to register as a log trader, and the $320 annual fee, to remove that huge impost for someone who might be trading millions of dollars of logs. Well, I asked the dairy owner or the person who\u2019s got a licence to sell at a market and sell a bit of food what they\u2019ll be paying for registration for the right to do that\u2014probably about 300 or 400 bucks; relative to their income, a huge impost. Is the Government going to take those registration requirements away? Silence. So they\u2019re happy to help the forest industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI did a quick survey. Half a million dollars was donated to ACT and New Zealand First from forest industry interests\u2014half a million dollars. I wonder if that money was donated on the basis that this fee be removed. I can\u2019t answer that question. It\u2019s up to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022187086ad0410497fbb850991c35c55e7\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8e946552a94b588d8d87b90ae6742a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, here\u2019s a sensitive Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bda3124e7d5e46b0bdfbb74d9b94638e\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the member is, I think, the longest-serving member of the House and he knows that to make imputations in the way he just made is grossly out of order and a breach of Standing Orders and he should apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f78c9da98384412e81491ded2a4cdf0c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Arena Williams. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673f00ba808344cea6e7d3735a9c68d5\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Appreciate the point of order from the Hon Chris Bishop. The member did not make an accusation in what he said; I was listening to that carefully. He raised a question and he hasn\u2019t provided an answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fdf42bf4ac549d8a136b09db9447232\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca8535721f64415a94b8616a647bf01c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before we move on\u2014excuse me, member\u2014I\u2019m just going to take some advice on this from the Clerk. In response to the Hon\u00A0Chris Bishop\u2019s point of order: if the member took offence, that\u2019s one thing. I think what the member Damien O\u2019Connor said was probably close to the wind but not quite a slur. But it was very close so I do caution the member. But if Chris Bishop took offence to that, then that\u2019s another matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223af0fdb44d2a4a67a83a4c7f968f8e76\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, I\u2019m referring to publicly available information and anyone can go and look at that register and draw their own conclusions; I\u2019ve drawn my own. I\u2019m asking the question: what will other people think? Because one of the concerns that people have across this country is the robustness and the health of our democracy, and I have been here a long time, and one of the things I am most passionate about is that that remains robust; absolutely. So all I\u2019m asking, in what seems like a strange proposition that for\u2014after a wise piece of legislation introduced by the Hon Shane Jones in 2022 to tidy up a rogue industry, and I could go back and quote some of his astute quotes in the House to actually say, \u201CLet\u2019s tidy this up, that those with a ute and a laptop driving around the country seeing opportunities to buy, sell, or advise on forestry were undermining the integrity and the credibility of the forest industry.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ETherefore, registering those people and knowing that there was some accountability, particularly for the export trade, but also to ensure that people who had contracts for local supply could actually get their wood when they needed it\u2014this is what it\u2019s all about. So removing this and going back to the wild west of log trading will be something that this coalition Government regrets. I know Minister Patterson over there understands the flaws in a pure market ideology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo, in supporting this piece of legislation, I leave the question, not about funding\u2014people can make their own conclusions\u2014how will a Government assure people who import logs from New Zealand that they were harvested from sustainable harvest regimes, because that\u2019s what we say; that they are free of any pest or diseases, because the incoming market doesn\u2019t want them; and that they weren\u2019t felled or processed in any way by slave labour, because that\u2019s also an assurance that has to be given to the international market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMPI, funded by the taxpayer, squeezed by the coalition Government, will then have to step up and do that work with no cost recovery regime, because this piece of legislation takes away the registration and certification requirements and says anyone can go out and buy and trade logs, and anyone can go out and advise on forestry. I worked on behalf of a good, honest tradesperson who had bought into a forestry investment on bad advice and suffered a huge loss because of it. The legislation that\u2019s in place at the moment, until this passes, of course, enables us to search back and find out who that person is and deregister them. That will no longer occur, so for those people looking to invest in forestry or trade in logs: beware\u2014beware. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe have supported this on the basis of good faith. I\u2019m very, very uneasy. I\u2019ll say that and I\u2019ll put that on the record. None the less, there\u2019s quite a bit of unease over that side of the House as well. There\u2019s enough pragmatic members, members like at the back there who sat on the one of the biggest companies in the country, understands the value of cooperation and of legislation and good regulations to ensure Fonterra operates properly. We don\u2019t have rogue traders in dairy. We certify that and tidy them up. We\u2019re going to have rogue traders in forestry and that potentially will undermine the integrity, the credibility of the fourth-largest export industry in this country. So we\u2019ll support it, but beware\u2014beware. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b18ec915194680a796ac664cdfc032\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Cross the floor, Damien. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251d3affdfd5949e48f4ae03d8f96317f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re a democracy here. We\u2019re a democracy over this side of the House too, so, occasionally, I get outvoted. None the less, beware of the passage of this legislation and its effect on the forest industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u00226d32ab3f072f47d5a29cc27e6b5ee315\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d32ab3f072f47d5a29cc27e6b5ee315\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m thrilled that the member over there\u2014Damien O\u2019Connor\u2014is supporting this bill. That\u2019s great news: $400 saved here, $300 saved there, all savings. As the member over there will know: if you look after the pennies, the pounds will take care of themselves. This bill will save unnecessary costs and I\u2019d hope that some of those savings will filter down to forest owners and also to those on the tools providing relief\u2014just like the tax relief this Government\u2019s about to provide to hard-working New Zealanders. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226d50573b07934d088e03a849228cf87e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001198\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002267fd2a8280a2495896bec195fc5f27aa\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c91ae17050946139c1f6cc58d170e49\u0022\u003ECorrections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f705d29a262f4b118c39fdd8f10116be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f705d29a262f4b118c39fdd8f10116be\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct the votes for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori earlier today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d45470a93bb54752909f92b5ebb1e718\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just get you to repeat that, because your mike didn\u2019t come on\u2014just for the members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7496b42c6864e65833f99e5ec5b479b\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to correct the votes cast for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori earlier today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022733c58fe010e43d3a0c7936c5312079e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd75007f03443d08c8a9c16c11b404b\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: The votes for Te Pati M\u0101ori on the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill, first reading; the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill, first reading; and the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill, first reading and instruction to the Justice Committee should be recorded as three opposed in each case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f62e701a17d46ef80aea2f575d77f59\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The record will be corrected accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd998d13e6e0439eac02ca3be8108294\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on, was there anyone in the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f7560662c4f4c2d9f731f3d13ea5144\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m changing it from six to three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de0471170ed64859a1069c8650d56557\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but what did you vote when you voted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224094733da0bc42f684c95c3cbb9a4d92\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Six, and I\u2019m changing it to three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276e21bcb4b8245eaba157bdd53923e51\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002273f79f18f36f43498080eb86e7cde85b\u0022\u003EOverseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa392246abd8432f8966c93517d9d699\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002263de9be0b1444b1baa06550622157e07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263de9be0b1444b1baa06550622157e07\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Overseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed54e5ff26cd460c9795fa236479a955\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d97a9a05e644e5be58a50d68a75235\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Overseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Finance and Expenditure Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 1\u00A0November\u00A02024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Overseas Investment Act to create a streamlined pathway for build-to-rent developers. It responds to concerns raised by stakeholders that the Overseas Investment Act presents undue barriers to selling established build-to-rent assets to overseas investors. This uncertainty over the ability to onsell assets is creating liquidity concerns for developers and disincentivising housing development and supply. So the changes in this bill seek to boost housing supply by providing clarity and certainty to investors that they will be allowed to build and, when required, sell build-to-rent and similar large-scale rental assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s well known amongst the House that New Zealand needs more houses. That is an understatement. We have a chronic housing shortage affecting almost every metric in society we care about, and build-to-rent can make a contribution towards the solution. It\u2019s not a silver bullet\u2014I\u2019m not pretending for one second it will be the solution to our housing crisis\u2014but it is a useful and important step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBuild-to-rent provides the opportunities to increase supply and diversity, in particular of secure, quality rental developments at scale; exactly the sort of housing we need. People out there listening\u2014if they are on Wednesday night at five past nine in the middle of winter\u2014might wonder what build-to-rent is. Purpose-built, medium- to large-scale rental properties, often within walking distance of key transport links. The key difference is that they\u2019re often funded by institutional investors. They tend to be professionally managed, good amenities, and offer residents a variety of lifestyle options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn fact, just the other day, the Prime Minister and I opened Resido at Sylvia Park in Auckland, which is a Kiwi Property development\u2014it\u2019s a New Zealand company. Those are quite upscaled apartments: a lot of them, all in the same place, next to Sylvia Park, right next to the train station; concierge down the bottom; they\u2019ve got a gym; I think they\u2019ve got a co-working space. It\u2019s quite an upscale development, and that\u2019s an option for people, and, clearly, Kiwi Property think they can make a quid out of it and it\u2019s an option for people to choose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what we need in New Zealand. We need housing choice. The small apartment in the Auckland CBD will be right for some people\u2014a more upscale apartment at Sylvia Park will be good for some families. We need terraced houses, we need duplexes, we need apartments, we need suburban homes, we need houses on the city fringe, we need houses on the CBD. We just need a lot more of everything, and build-to-rent\u2019s part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe know from overseas it\u2019s made a contribution to housing markets: 100,000 homes in the UK; Australia has seen quite a lot of growth. We\u2019re at an earlier stage, but we do have a sector with potential for growth. There\u2019s currently 23 developments, I\u2019m advised, under way across Auckland, Christchurch, and Wellington. What they need\u2014the developers of these products\u2014is access to domestic and foreign capital to help get the sector off the ground. So you\u2019re talking significant upfront investment\u2014upwards of $200\u00A0million\u2014and, given our limited domestic savings and limited experience with build-to-rent, we are going to need overseas investment to support projects at this scale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAgain, if you look overseas, institutional investors such as pension funds are making quite big contributions to build-to-rent, but our overseas investment laws\u2014as I think many people in the House know\u2014are very complex and they\u2019re creating uncertainty around investing here. So, again, as the House knows, since 2018, the Overseas Investment Act has generally\u2014not always, but generally\u2014prohibited foreigners from purchasing residential land in New Zealand, except in limited circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EUnder the current rules, overseas investors have a streamlined pathway to develop new housing, but they can only purchase established housing developments if they meet the onerous \u201Cbenefit to New Zealand\u201D test. As a result, developers report they are not confident that overseas investors will be able to purchase build-to-rent assets after they are built. So this doesn\u2019t give enough certainty that they\u2019ll be able to sell their assets when it comes time to exit or if they face fiscal distress\u2014ultimately disincentivising new housing from being built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo what the bill does is create a new pathway under the Act\u2014a streamlined pathway\u2014which enables investors to purchase established large-scale rental developments if they intend to continue to operate them. The new pathway is primarily designed for build-to-rent, but it will also enable investment in similar large-scale rental developments which may face liquidity issues, such as key worker accommodation, affordable housing delivered by community housing providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe pathway has been designed to maximise certainty for investors, so it removes the need to demonstrate a benefit to New Zealand to obtain consent for these purchases. The pathway operates similarly to, and in conjunction with, other streamlined pathways within the Act\u2014such as the \u201Cincreased housing test\u201D, which people will be already familiar with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI want to be clear: the bill retains the foreign buyers ban. We recognise that owning residential land in New Zealand is a privilege. So this bill does not affect existing restrictions which prevent foreign investors from purchasing homes to live in, becoming small-scale landlords in New Zealand, or holding empty homes for speculation. The new pathway is limited to investors who seek to purchase existing large-scale developments which have 20 or more units that can be made available for rent. Investors will be required to lease units under a residential tenancy and meet any other conditions of their consent. As with other consents under the Act, the conditions will be actively monitored and enforced by Land Information New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a relatively simple bill within a very complicated legislative schema. I think we should be clear about that. The Act is complicated, but this is a relatively small change. I\u2019m not pretending for a moment it\u2019s the solution to our housing crisis, but it is, of course, one useful thing we can do. Ultimately, the solutions are around land, infrastructure, funding and financing, and incentives for councils\u2014and that is what the Government is working at pace on. But this was part of the 100-day programme the Government said we would take policy decisions on. We did that within our first 100 days\u2014introduced to the House a few weeks ago. I\u2019m looking forward to it being considered by the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014I know that committee will do a good job. I hope that we will be able to legislate it before the end of the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs I say, I\u2019m not pretending for a moment that this is a silver bullet\u2014there is none\u2014but it is a useful contribution. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00220500c75fc2934017ad201f0c720b69fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220500c75fc2934017ad201f0c720b69fa\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00227f6dbd0b564f4d81885143b26a38937b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f6dbd0b564f4d81885143b26a38937b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to rise to take a call on this\u2014thank you, Madam Speaker\u2014and indicate Labour will be supporting this bill to the select committee. This is, of course, a category of work, build-to-rent, that I think we\u2019ve seen is an evolving category in New Zealand over the last few years. Indeed, our Government brought legislation to the House in 2023, just over a year ago, where we really started to define the category of what build-to-rent was. We did that by using a lever to encourage more build-to-rent, and I think we share that with the Government\u2014the desire to see an increased build-to-rent. The lever that we used back in March 2023 was, of course, applying in perpetuity interest deductibility to newly built build-to-rent developments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut there was a quid pro quo for that. As we were giving a privileged position to build-to-rent, we were in the process of defining a category. In that category, there had to be some benefits that accrued not only to the owners of these assets, which are an important part of how we solve our housing crisis by increasing supply, but it offered a different way of renting; that these are dwellings that are built with the idea that we start to develop a rental market, such as we see in overseas jurisdictions, where people enter into far longer-term leases and make their lives in a rental home. Some people\u2014and many of these that we\u2019re already seeing being built quite upscale homes\u2014are seeing making their home in a rental property as a permanent way of life; it\u2019s not a stage of life that they pass through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we did is we put a definition around what build-to-rent was. We said there had to be 20 or more dwellings in a single development on a single block or adjacent blocks, held in one or more titles. So it is about getting scale, and that was a critical component of what we wanted to do. They needed to be owned by the same person, and that person included a legal entity, like a company. Each dwelling had to be prepared for use, available or occupied under the Residential Tenancy Act. But the difference from the standard provisions of the Residential Tenancy Act was there was an option of a 10-year term for tenants, with the ability for the tenant to give 56 days\u2019 notice of termination. What we were doing was creating a far longer-term framework for tenants who were entering into these arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe also said that every tenant agreement included a personalisation policy\u2014that these were people that were entering into long-term rentals. They may want to paint a room a particular colour; they might want to make some changes. These are people making their lives in these dwellings, and the legislative framework that provided for that needed to reflect that. So when this bill comes to select committee\u2014my reading of the legislation is it\u2019s a very small piece of legislation that we have before us; it only makes a very particular change. But one of the things that we will be ensuring at select committee, and asking questions about, is that those different provisions for tenants are perpetuated with any changes that are made through the legislation that will be going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the other changes that we will be wanting to look at is the onsell. This is about liquidity in this market. I accept that. While we received advice while in Government that the Overseas Investment Act was sufficient and there didn\u2019t need to be more, we always said we were open to changes to the legislation if it was required. But one of the things that I will be wanting to seek assurance of at select committee is around the provision that at least 20 of the dwellings will be made available for lease to occupiers within a satisfactory time frame. I\u2019m perplexed as to why 20. We have some developments that are as large as 295 individual dwellings in a build-to-rent development. This is fewer than 10 percent at that level. Why 20? I don\u2019t know that 20 in a development as large a scale as 295 is sufficient to say that we are onselling the same asset class.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo these are the kinds of questions that we will be asking at select committee, but Labour is more than happy to support it to select committee and have that conversation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022327c66e68d44487c950e21ab77af9913\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022327c66e68d44487c950e21ab77af9913\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Affordable, secure housing is one of the single biggest investments that we could make\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b2128545ae4d11a26586d20a58285e\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Greens do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed66b242d9ff48848e001a4f7263ce5d\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in Aotearoa New Zealand. Madam Speaker, I\u2019ll just wait for Matua Jones there to calm down before I continue with my speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAffordable, stable, healthy housing is one of the single biggest investments we can make in our society that will address so many other problems. There\u2019s been research, even recently, undertaken in New Zealand in 2023 by Motu, which found, surprisingly, that tenants in public housing have higher levels of wellbeing than those in private rental housing. That\u2019s despite New Zealand, over the last 20 to 30 years, having an inadequate, poorly managed public housing supply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EMichael Joseph Savage completely transformed Aotearoa New Zealand when he started the State house programme back in the 1940s. It made a huge positive difference until about the 1980s or 1990s when we stopped building public housing to keep up with our population growth. That has correlated with an increasing level of homelessness. Those who are concerned about crime should be much more interested in the amount that we invest in housing and public housing\u2014affordable, safe housing for people\u2014than what we put into prisons and the length of sentences we give people. That\u2019s just evidence-based planning. Rather than short-term, populist, blaming the bad people, let\u2019s focus on solutions that we can work on together. It is not possible to take seriously this Government\u2019s commitment to increasing the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022436ac1b238d241dbb0d4e50f9fb07523\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not possible to take seriously the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f73af2929c6b47c591b5e602223c73f7\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014supply of\u2014I\u2019ll wait. Madam Speaker, can I speak?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd7b144a96504881aafc5cdf10579400\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: You haven\u2019t been stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022116b2b0bba3d4a65b340f10f78e41942\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: The way to get affordable, stable housing in New Zealand is by enabling more State housing, more public housing\u2014that is the way to do it\u2014and to improve our tenancy laws. At the very same time that this Government is saying that they supposedly want to make it more affordable for people to rent, and more secure, they\u2019re going to change the tenancy laws to make it possible for people to get evicted for no cause at all\u2014no-cause evictions. It\u2019s the exact opposite of what the evidence tells us we need. If we do want to enable more affordable, reliable, stable housing, the way to do it is through the programme that K\u0101inga Ora was building up, under which now 3,000 homes have been paused\u2014hundreds of tradie jobs lost thanks to National and their coalition partners stopping a build of housing that was actually going to increase the supply of homes. Then they say that the problem\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7aab7bd5064956aebf086403d0dbd6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I interrupt the member and ask her to come back to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b55944f24d247fa88bd2c7eaa29f59e\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the bill is the Overseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill, and the Minister spoke at length about how it\u2019s not the silver bullet but there are many issues affecting housing. The Minister spoke to those, not just this bill, and I will too because the argument for this bill is that supposedly we need overseas investors to own more large-scale build-to-rent things, when the Minister is cancelling the 3,000 homes that were going to be delivered under K\u0101inga Ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe have the ability, as a country, to invest in public housing and build-to-rent. We don\u2019t need to open it up to overseas owners. What this Government\u2019s real agenda is is making it possible for the overseas capitalists to profit off housing in New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eda16772506f40338dd6eea287e602a0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, foreign landlords.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022266410b799004fc78b2ccbbfada26e1c\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014foreign landlords\u2014while they\u2019re changing the tenancy laws to take away rights from renters, and they cancelled the one thing that we know is the baseline that we need more than anything else, which is public housing, because we know it\u2019s directly related to levels of homelessness. The Green Party will not support this foreign-ownership bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002293e33a29fc9c4b1fb9105060069e92b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293e33a29fc9c4b1fb9105060069e92b7\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s so disappointing to hear the Green Party are opposed to building homes for people who might want to rent. Now, it wasn\u2019t that long ago\u2014in fact, a couple of times in the past 10 years\u2014that I\u2019ve been one of those people queueing up to view a home, hoping that I could convince the agent to let me rent it. There were lots of people in the queue\u2014lots of professional people, maybe people with a dog. It turned out there were not enough rental homes available for the number of people who want to rent, but that doesn\u2019t seem to matter to the Green Party. They don\u2019t care about renters\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019ve heard tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat this Government is doing by making these changes to the Overseas Investment Act 2005, no less\u2014a piece of legislation which in 2005 probably seemed radical, allowing people to send their money to New Zealand to invest it. Through these build-to-rent, and similar, rental developments, we\u2019re going to remove barriers to overseas investment in rental property. It\u2019s going to allow medium- to large-scale developments\u2014in fact, any development over 20 dwellings\u2014to take advantage of this investment opportunity to build homes for Kiwis who want to rent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhen I look at some of the commentary from people involved in delivering rental apartments and complexes to their clients to people who want to rent, actually, it\u2019s not just about the social housing element that the Green Party complained we weren\u2019t doing enough of\u2014well, we certainly are. Actually, there are a whole lot of people who come to New Zealand to work on major engineering projects and major corporates. They work in our businesses, and when they arrive in a place like Auckland or Wellington or Christchurch or even Napier, as I know somebody did just recently, or Tauranga, as I know an engineering company looking for staff, there was nowhere for the people to live. There was nowhere for them to rent. This Government is going to sort this out. I\u2019m very proud to support this bill tonight. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0e54f8af0474038acf68823d7233464\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0e54f8af0474038acf68823d7233464\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Regional Development):\u003C/span\u003E A very short contribution in contrast to the blather that we heard from an earlier speaker. Naturally, New Zealand First will support the bill, and I want to acknowledge the wisdom rarely seen in the Hon Megan Woods\u2019 agreeing to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe all understand that the housing shortage is an issue. International capital can be deployed. Obviously, we need to look after key essential interests that are of value to the broad swathe of the Kiwi population. But we must overcome the inflation and the spectacular explosion of costs driven by K\u0101inga Ora, where it now costs for a bog-standard K\u0101inga Ora house $6,500, whilst $1 million a day is spent to keep people in motels\u2014sadly, the majority are the tangata whenua. This will be a contribution to reverse the excesses and the egregious conduct of the last housing Minister. We support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022513fb215b98d4387b7a5a6fc2ca418d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022513fb215b98d4387b7a5a6fc2ca418d1\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Nonsense. Nonsense from that member in this House. Labour is supporting this bill because it is a smart step forward. It is one step forward, which is useful. But there are so many other measures which have delivered housing\u2014particularly for vulnerable communities\u2014like M\u0101ori housing, which has been cut by this Government. So we have a Minister who is aspirational for M\u0101ori housing come down to this House and deliver a speech where he says, \u201CLook over here\u2014look over here and don\u2019t pay attention to my record of cutting those very initiatives which, when I was in Government, I was a champion of.\u201D Nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a well-intentioned bill, and it will do some things which are useful. It will make sure that those providers of build-to-rent housing are ready to go when this Government enacts those changes which it proposes will make a difference to the housing supply in this country. And, though these aren\u2019t the measures that we would have chosen to do, these are the measures which the Government believes in. So, yeah, let\u2019s give it a go. Let\u2019s see if this is something which will fundamentally increase the supply of housing and will help the demand for rentals in New Zealand. That is a useful measure, and it\u2019s useful for this House to be able to be open-minded when it comes to these solutions which don\u2019t fit with the values, necessarily, of the Labour Party. But, look, it\u2019s a useful thing that we should try because we all agree, fundamentally, that we must build more houses in New Zealand. It is pretty well understood around the spectrum here that we do not have enough houses in New Zealand for not only our growing population here but also for the number of migrants coming into New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn a place like Manurewa, which I represent and am very proud to call home, we have a situation where people are in overcrowded housing, where rentals are prohibitively expensive for people, and they\u2019re, essentially, now based on not only the income of one family but of two, because that is the norm for many Manurewa families who live in, say, a three-bedroom house amongst two families, or intergenerational families who are choosing to live together but are also in very cramped conditions. So we need to make sure that we are making interventions in the housing market from both the supply side and the demand side. I heard the Minister of Housing stand earlier when he gave his contribution and talk about how this was an essential measure and, you know, it wasn\u2019t the be-all and end-all. I think a number of those kinds of interventions are really good. But we also need to see proper investment in the demand side, because this Minister is too focused, in my view, on the supply side measures which he has signed up to ideologically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe demand side of the equation is really important too. We need to make sure that the Government is putting aside allocation to make sure that the most vulnerable New Zealanders who have trouble getting into housing are supported to do so. One of those housing initiatives is He K\u016Bk\u016B Ki Te K\u0101inga, which is an initiative which has been cut by this Government for kaum\u0101tua housing. I raise that initiative particularly, because this kind of build-to-rent measure will not address those housing needs faced by these vulnerable people. They\u2019re over 65 and they are M\u0101ori. They face intergenerational barriers to getting into housing, because not only did they not own a home but their parents did not own a home, and their parents before them did not own a home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the history of M\u0101ori housing in Aotearoa, in the 1930s, homeownership for M\u0101ori was higher than other groups. But because of successive decisions made by Governments and because of the kind of economy that we have designed and the kind of economic development that we have pursued in New Zealand, we have seen that not only rural M\u0101ori have lost their connection to their whenua but also M\u0101ori in urban environments. So we have this structural problem where some of the most vulnerable New Zealanders and M\u0101ori are being locked out of the housing market, and measures like these don\u2019t go far enough to address that, in my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut being able to provide a larger number of houses in the market and being able to provide for people who choose to rent or are renting because they are saving to afford a home is a really good idea. We need to make sure that we\u2019re also doing everything we can to do that. We also need to make sure that community housing providers and those large institutional investors who are interested in building large numbers of homes are ready to go, too. So this kind of investment is a good mechanism to allow for that. I\u2019m happy to be able to support this initiative. While it\u2019s not what I would have chosen to have done, let\u2019s give it a go. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf119f7f06774c738bbf3d07b7f919e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf119f7f06774c738bbf3d07b7f919e1\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E We have a crisis in housing in New Zealand, and our Government is using a suite of tools to tackle that crisis. There is no one silver bullet, as has been mentioned, but build-to-rent is part of the solution. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u002264f1275400f14c408e6e5bf9073f9e33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264f1275400f14c408e6e5bf9073f9e33\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Minister Jones needs to hang his head in shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ddf109ba7d4ab988ec9fd8be44e0dc\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221792ef3efdd5445ea6229c4e53644c4a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: He can laugh all he likes\u2014he can laugh all he likes. I thought Dan Bidois was bad, and the other M\u0101ori, but, actually, the worst one is Minister Jones, because he worked with us\u2014he worked with us\u2014at a time when his relations are struggling. They\u2019re fighting to live at the moment in the North. It\u2019s a kura there, it\u2019s a kura, is it, Willow, up there in the North\u2014Shane Jones\u2019 relations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a71d27b3f1ee479195e73b85d7d9ac37\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: And this is going to circle back to the overseas investment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e48e4ca5a060419199f5f01009131b43\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes, Madam Speaker\u2014absolutely. It\u2019s all about the Overseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill, which we are supporting, because we are a pragmatic party\u2014very pragmatic\u2014although we do have an element of distrust here, particularly with Minister Jones involved, who would sell off his relations in the North.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI\u2019m saying that because what we\u2019re seeing here with the Government is that, though this is a good idea\u2014and I think Minister Bishop did express some reasonable views in his presentation tonight\u2014what they\u2019re giving with one hand, they\u2019re taking away with the other, and that\u2019s the problem. And, of course, we\u2019ve had a magnificent Minister in Megan Woods, who built more houses\u2014more houses\u2014than any other housing Minister in the last 50 years. She\u2019s done a fantastic job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbb71bf682574f3490b76b25a415c687\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, she had a hammer, did she?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f94532c766f4e9c9676296a5cc06e63\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m glad that my ACT colleague over there agrees with me. At least, I think he agrees with me! Maybe I\u2019m reading it wrong. We\u2019ve got a former Minister here who said, \u201CYes, of course we\u2019re interested in this. Of course, we\u2019re going to be pragmatic.\u201D We\u2019ve got a housing crisis, but it\u2019s a housing crisis that, I\u2019m proud to say, we were starting to confront. And, actually, were we getting on top of it? Well, it might have taken us a few more years to break down the waiting list, but this is certainly some of the work that our Minister started. But she didn\u2019t start it at the expense of M\u0101ori housing. She didn\u2019t start it at the expense of community housing. And that\u2019s the problem we\u2019ve got here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had a recent Budget\u2014$40 million down in terms of the M\u0101ori housing area. Our Government had the best \u201Cby M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u201D partnerships going in terms of housing in this country. And Minister Jones knows this, because some of those relationships are with his relations, who have disowned him. They\u2019ve disowned him because of his tr\u2014well, I\u2019d better not say that word, or I might get point of ordered. But they\u2019ve decided\u2014I mean, he knows what I\u2019m talking about. We need partnerships with M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThis type of bill\u2014and I want to say this to my Green friends over there, and I know where they\u2019re coming from\u2014will help M\u0101ori. There is just no doubt about it. I know what the ideal is\u2014and I heard that from the Greens\u2014but the reality is, when you have people struggling everywhere, we will make an attempt to correct things, and this bill does that. It\u2019ll give our people an opportunity to get into homes. They are struggling at the moment. We\u2019re seeing it on television\u2014well, all the time\u2014but I just can\u2019t help thinking how much progress we made, particularly in the community housing area, particularly in the M\u0101ori housing area, particularly in the K\u0101inga Ora area, which is continually being run down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe Government will need to clarify, though, what an expansion beyond the build-to-rent to include what the explanatory memorandum called \u201Csimilar rental development\u201D is. I think Megan Woods talked about that. We just need some clarity around some of the intricacies within this bill, because, whilst we support the intent, we support the principle, only a fool would not support an opportunity to give New Zealanders\u2014not just M\u0101ori but\u00A0Kiwis\u2014an opportunity to get in homes. We have to be careful about this, because there is obviously a sensitivity in terms of overseas investors coming in. But I just want to say that this is something we\u2019ll support and commend the bill to the House. Kia ora, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022fca675d9f8b04c3db08accb999cfd4a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fca675d9f8b04c3db08accb999cfd4a4\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E The basis is clear. We need to increase the supply of secure, affordable, and quality rental developments, of which there are very few. The bill will amend the Overseas Investment Act to incentivise, to allow a fast-track consenting process to incentivise and get overseas investors to come in and build these rental accommodations. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022b14229b74a6d4c46ae6d172848bf2802\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b14229b74a6d4c46ae6d172848bf2802\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a pleasure to take a short call on the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222be8a68ef334f96891918022e0f1795\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Short.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022359f4f866e51410fb72f6d34ae44b30a\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014short as in five minutes, not 10\u2014Overseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b186ef4eb674c7e876c3f65e3eea4af\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Willow, Matariki!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5209e0a6fc34d7f8ebb3b7d9baefbd3\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I\u2019m not going to give you that Matariki gift tonight and keep it shorter than the five minutes that I\u2019ve got.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EBut I want to support the contributions from my colleagues on this side of the House and the points that they have made about not only the work that Labour did while we were in Government to address the housing crisis that we have but also the disappointment that we have with some of the announcements and the things that we can see in the Budget. It would be remiss of me, as Labour\u2019s spokesperson for youth, if I didn\u2019t point out that I am disappointed in the $20 million cut to youth homelessness in this year\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EAs you have heard this evening from my colleagues on this side of the House, we are supporting this bill and we are supporting it to select committee. There are some important things that do need to be teased out at select committee and understood by the select committee. I want to elaborate a little bit more on those. But if I can first say, for the benefit of the Hon Shane Jones\u2014if I refer to a news story which quotes the Property Council of New Zealand\u2019s chief executive, Leonie Freeman, who told Newsroom that this is a journey the sector has been going through in recent years. During the last Labour Government, housing Minister Phil Twyford and his successor Megan Woods publicly shared their support for build-to-rent developments. In fact, under Woods, the Government carved new build-to-rent projects out of its decision to end interest deductibility for investor rentals, and Land Information New Zealand issued a guidance note intended to make it clear that such developments were not subject to the Labour-led coalition\u2019s foreign buyers ban.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to say that I can see, in a recent article, that the Property Council has launched a build-to-rent tracker in the last month or so, which has shown that more than 1,300 units had been completed, with at least 4,000 more under construction or in the pipeline. Is Shanan Halbert here? I understand he\u2019s joining us shortly, yes? Over 95 percent of those are in Auckland, and as our spokesperson for Auckland, I\u2019m sure he will be pleased to hear that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, the one thing that I wanted to bring the House\u2019s attention to and just raise in the debate this evening and leave it for the select committee, which I am not part of, to consider and to question officials and tease out a little bit more is the new section 11A, inserted by clause 6, how the large rental development test is met. So that is, in particular, 11A(1)(b). That one is that \u201Cat least 20 of the residential dwellings will be, or are likely to be, available for use, within a time frame that is satisfactory to the relevant Ministers, as a residential dwelling occupied under a residential tenancy to which the Residential Tenancies Act 1986 applies or would apply (the large rental development outcome)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe reason why I have some questions about that is because in order to be eligible it has to be 20 or more, and, of course, some can be and, hopefully, will be much larger than that. So what we want to know is how did the Minister determine that the number would be 20? Is this a percentage basis? Just the rationale behind that, but also a bit of a concern that this isn\u2019t or couldn\u2019t be used as a loophole to get around it. So that is something that I want to raise in this debate for those who are going to be on that select committee to consider, to probe officials on that, to understand that a bit more so that we can have confidence that it won\u2019t be used or is a loophole. I look forward to the select committee reporting back and giving us more clarification and assurance around that. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5c7adc0df8c4b8e9e7b47d7f7b1270b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5c7adc0df8c4b8e9e7b47d7f7b1270b\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Let\u2019s speak less and build more. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002289de5e1fe2784c7fab09c8606ca9627b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Overseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 14\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001286\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c6d45731cfc4fd1a50b57edaf99ee4e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat the Overseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill be considered by the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0b2d0c702354c86ae1e1d8945e0e2c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0b2d0c702354c86ae1e1d8945e0e2c8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022479e0f5f39f64e648b0ebd0d5b71aa3d\u0022\u003EInstruction to Finance and Expenditure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d00720b644364043acaf89f0561cf30e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d00720b644364043acaf89f0561cf30e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Housing: I move, That the Overseas Investment (Build-to-rent and Similar Rental Developments) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 1\u00A0November\u00A02024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c619619e109498cade70736b5af748e\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e57fecfc867848f99128163fb978e2e4\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00226aa85e3ba6cf4ab09e230b2028c139e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aa85e3ba6cf4ab09e230b2028c139e3\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ffa1445d444ccc8dee4fc68cc14d7e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4133f10546b4049a697f776edf915cd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill does two things. Firstly, in relation to the clean vehicle standard, it enables the targets for the standard to be changed by secondary legislation rather than an amendment for them to be fixed in primary legislation. Secondly, it ensures that the standard operates on a user-pays model to minimise cost to taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis Government is supportive of the clean vehicle standard to ensure that New Zealand has an affordable mix of clean vehicles. By encouraging suppliers to import vehicles with better fuel-saving technologies, it helps to reduce our emissions but also it helps to provide that mix of vehicles to the New Zealand market. Our Government is committed to this but we\u2019re also committed to ensuring that we continue to provide the affordable supply and the range of vehicles that New Zealanders need into the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation does those two things. Firstly, it allows for the standard to be amended via regulation, and it also ensures that there is a user-pays approach to paying for the use of the standard. Effectively, the purpose of the standard\u2014and the vast majority of countries have fuel economy standards of some description\u2014is to ensure that countries and markets are able to get a fleet of vehicles into that market which meet those lower-emission profiles over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe problem, though, with the last Government is that, of course, they got up on their high horse and decided to set not only a standard which would become more stringent than some of the major manufacturing countries globally but they also chucked the ute tax on top\u2014they also chucked the ute tax on top. So, of course, we\u2019ve already got rid of the ute tax at the end of last year. But, in terms of the standard, they decided that even though we\u2019re a country of only 5 million people\u2014and the last time I checked, New Zealand doesn\u2019t manufacture cars\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4ec9716dcf3496aa9684d7237486c03\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, actually, Beach Haven does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202e0380ca0524e9d8cb5c1df776cd993\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014well, we might, we might. There might be the niche car\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e26be174eeda420c9fdacbff7a23a387\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Fraser Cars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288c6e30463c343d1bf96142dbee3739a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There might be the niche car here or there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c457486eb29c4b128b829fc4b00c98e2\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve only got one wheel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e9bd9a429644935b65373c7d91f409d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: OK, \u201CThey\u2019ve only got one wheel.\u201D, says Mr Rutherford. But the point is that we\u2019re a car taker, not a car maker. So we need to make sure, when we\u2019re setting policies as a country, that we actually recognise that rather than setting a standard which says to the rest of the world, \u201CWe want you to manufacture cars to our standard.\u201D Now, I\u2019m sorry, but the major car manufacturers are not necessarily going to do that for little old New Zealand, as much as we\u2019d like. So this legislation enables the review of the standard, which the legislation requires the Government to have started by June 2024, to be able to then make any changes which may flow from that review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI instructed the Ministry of Transport to begin that review earlier this year. They have been engaging with the sector in relation to how we can ensure that New Zealand has the availability, the affordability, and the mix of vehicles that New Zealanders need, but also to ensure that it is cost-effective for New Zealand. Some of the advice that I\u2019ve been seeing and receiving is that if we were to maintain the current trajectory, we could be increasing the cost of importing vehicles, on average, by thousands of dollars per vehicle. So this is an issue that we need to grapple with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis legislation, quite simply, allows for any changes which flow from that review, which is currently under way, to then be implemented via regulation rather than for that to be set in primary legislation, which, I note, the previous Government, I believe, was advised not to set it in primary legislation when they actually put the legislation in place in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe second thing this bill does is it ensures that there is appropriate cost recovery for the administration of the clean vehicle standard. So the last Government, of course, set the standard up, and the deal at the time was that whilst the industry didn\u2019t necessarily like where the standard was set and some of the targets which were not going to be achievable, the Government paid\u2014well, through the taxpayer; the taxpayer ultimately paid\u2014$11.8 million towards administering the standard on a per year basis. Well, firstly, I asked the officials \u201CHow much did it actually cost to run it?\u201D Well, I found out that it only actually cost $6.4 million to run it. So the taxpayer was being taken for a ride in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b55d2eb64ecc4462867b3cd8c9ec13c2\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Saved $6 million already, well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224056e9e0648d4d6297ebf707c6acc6cb\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: So we saved $5 million already. But, secondly, actually, we have decided in this bill to take a user-pays approach so that as people import those vehicles, they\u2019ll pay for it, rather than the taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022131280a2cb9542809a014739c2103fd8\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, user-pays, oh! Well, what a surprise!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc93cd066bfd4e479f678d93ed809e22\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I hear Willie Jackson on the other side, complaining about user-pays. Well, I guess the question the Opposition has got to ask is: are they prepared to increase taxes on working families to pay for the operation of the standard? Is that what the Opposition are going to do? Because I tell you what: whatever moves, they\u2019ll tax it\u2014whatever they see, they\u2019ll tax it. They wake up in the morning, and all they can think about is what\u2019s the next thing they can tax. That\u2019s how the Opposition think. So this puts in place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8b25f19909c4b56ba23fbfd6b7ada62\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: You know you\u2019re a Minister now, and this is actually an important part of statutory interpretation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242fca19099bc4ba6b8a0c2951f822c14\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014a user-pays principle and it\u2019s about ensuring that\u2014we\u00A0have legislative statements now, as well, which are very important instruments. I acknowledge the process in which those were brought into the House. But what I would just say is that when the Opposition opposes user-pays, what they mean is, actually, they\u2019re going to increase taxes on hard-working New Zealanders. Well, we stand on this side of the House with a far better and more principled approach to these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo that is, effectively, what the bill does. It\u2019s a very narrow piece of legislation. There are two simple parts to it. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00227b8b686ea8174ae4bfdd9db3f5883ee0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b8b686ea8174ae4bfdd9db3f5883ee0\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Speaker. Look, it\u2019s always a pleasure to rise and speak after Minister Brown because there\u2019s so much content that he delivers that can just be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270d5a03bff0f4ffdad451c7cdcd0c735\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CThe third-form pantomime\u201D, he\u2019s otherwise known as.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b2dc1e53f47435f93ced0b37ad27eb8\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you, Dr Woods. I mean, there\u2019s a lot in there that we need to digest. And do you know what? It\u2019s good that the time of the House, unfortunately, is going to have plenty of hours and minutes to do exactly that because we are considering this piece of legislation under urgency when we don\u2019t need to be here. It\u2019s interesting: when we look at the context of this bill\u2014and I\u2019ll put the Minister of Transport out of his misery: we will not be supporting this piece of legislation this evening, and over the coming days we will tell you exactly why that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis bill actually was part of Budget day urgency in the motion. So this was a bill that was caught up alongside no scrutiny at the time, and still that is what this Government seeks to propose for this bill. It was alongside the waste minimisation levy, it was alongside the increase in the money that they\u2019re going to take off councils in terms of a percentage of your fines, it\u2019s around taxation, and now this bill, effectively, is introducing a new tax. It is a car tax. It is a car tax that is going to be applied on vehicles that individuals will be responsible for, and we\u2019ll have a lot to say about this. But, in reality, this bill is seeking to give Simeon Brown, as the Minister of Transport, simply more power. That\u2019s becoming a common theme that we will explore on this side of the House. It\u2019s a common theme. I mean, Minister Brown is part of the panel of three\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291cf5dba411b4cb98579e41ece8217ce\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Fast track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228960434201f647c6824c80fb62c2949f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or the group of three around fast track\u2014that\u2019s right, Mr Jackson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220d3ca0461a9403a9db93487b2a642f7\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d32f0604b5344b48dc127dc1ae6068d\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that\u2019s really important. Members opposite might say, you know, \u201CWell, speak to the bill.\u201D Well, this is about the bill. This is about giving power to the Minister of Transport to basically bypass opportunities that exist currently in primary legislation to set targets that will exist under regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat that actually sends a signal around is that this is clearly a Government that is not prepared to heed the commitments under an accord that we should be taking responsibly and seriously around reducing our carbon emissions and not providing any support or substance around that. In primary legislation, which this bill seeks to amend, the targets are listed there for the next three years. What this bill, effectively, will do is run a ruler through those specified targets and hand over to Simeon Brown the opportunity by pen and paper to set those targets, whatever they might be about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re going to have a wee bit of time to talk about the level of consultation that has actually taken place up to this point in time. Actually, in terms of this piece of legislation, members on this side of the House have been inundated with members of the community; with other industry participants who are concerned about the fact that this piece of legislation is going through the House under urgency. I\u2019m looking forward to hearing from the Minister, as this bill progresses\u2014exactly who did he consult with? Who did he consult with in terms of forming his views around that? Let\u2019s form a view around whether or not those people and organisations that the Minister consulted with are actually representative of the industry and of the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, if the Minister has actually been consulting with groups and industry participants and players that are representative of this community, well then, actually, we might reconsider our position on some aspects. So this is an invitation to Minister Brown\u2014and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll get to this\u2014I invite you, Minister, to share exactly the wide breadth of consultation that you have indicated that you have taken. So we, with interest, look forward to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis paints a picture, though, in terms of the context within which this bill is introduced. It\u2019s all\u2014oh, they\u2019re all silent now; I think they\u2019ve been given the message, perhaps, that maybe they shouldn\u2019t be interjecting. But I do look forward to the contribution from members opposite as this bill progresses. But this is a bill that is within the context of a bigger picture. There has been no replacement for the clean car rebate or discount; there is no incentivisation in the uptake of low-emission vehicles under this Government; and all the data indicates that, actually, and we will be talking about that, I\u2019m sure. There is no Budget funding in the environment space that\u2019s listed in Budget 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a pure dereliction of duty by this Government, and members on this side of the House will be holding the Government to account, step by step, clause by clause, as we start to unravel some of the concerning features of this legislation. We do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002298d8449cf867484ab95eb2fef1ec43df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298d8449cf867484ab95eb2fef1ec43df\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002222f10638e9fa4bb5b600a7751725a9d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222f10638e9fa4bb5b600a7751725a9d8\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s amazing that the Government introduced this bill with the claim that it was going to provide more certainty to the industry, because it does the exact opposite. But I\u2019ve come to believe that this is a deliberate strategy of the Government, and it\u2019s quite Orwellian to just say that what you\u2019re doing is the opposite of what you\u2019re actually doing and then say the opposite about the previous Government as well. So everything that they say about what the previous Government did is really what they are doing, like cancelling contracts for ferries, for example. And here they say they\u2019re introducing a bill to increase certainty when there is no way we can read this bill as increasing certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt is increasing uncertainty; it is reducing certainty, because the targets have been set out in legislation for years, and New Zealand was well on its way to reducing emissions far beyond what those targets were, thanks to the Clean Car Discount. We\u2019ve got the facts on that. And, now, because they removed the Clean Car Discount, our average emissions of vehicles coming into the country have massively increased. Now, we just have to put this into context, OK? Because literally the only solution this Government has for reducing emissions from transport is electric cars. And the only steps they have taken are increasing the emissions of the cars coming into the country. So they\u2019re increasing emissions from cars. So there\u2019s no way to take seriously their commitment to meeting any climate targets, carbon reduction targets. It\u2019s just not true. They have no commitment to that, because their actions are doing the exact opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAnd the sad thing about it is that it also is bad for New Zealand economically, because we spend a lot of money just trying to move around the country. And people and businesses and households have to spend a lot of money on fuel to move around the country. And all of that fuel is imported because, despite whatever you want to do with oil and gas exploration, we have never produced the kind of oil that is used in cars and trucks in New Zealand. So it just means importing more oil and spending more money on getting around. And who benefits from this policy? Well, they make it out that it\u2019s some sort of individual choice, but actually the real beneficiaries of this policy are the manufacturers of high-emissions vehicles, because those are more profitable for them. But they aren\u2019t in New Zealand. New Zealand doesn\u2019t benefit from more New Zealanders buying high-emissions vehicles. It just means we have more pollution and we spend more money on petrol and diesel. And diesel, by the way, has a lot of harmful health impacts that are not being taken into account, so we\u2019re paying for it over and over and over again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut the Minister of Transport, of course, is very engaged in the public opinion, the opinions of the people who comment on his Facebook posts. We know that his version of reality is entirely shaped by the comments on his Facebook posts\u2014not actual data and evidence about what New Zealanders want and what is actually happening. Some of the high-emitting vehicle importers are opposed to those targets because they want to sell more high-emissions vehicles in New Zealand. But what is happening overseas? There\u2019s this claim that New Zealand can\u2019t control what\u2019s happening overseas. Well, guess what? The targets are entirely in line\u2014and I know you won\u2019t be able to see this graph; I\u2019ll have to bring a larger version of it to future debates. But the targets were actually entirely in line with what other countries are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat this bill is doing is it means that we are going to, again, fall behind, because before the Clean Car Discount and before the Clean Car Standard were introduced, we had some of the highest average emissions of new vehicles imported into New Zealand. We had 189 grams of carbon per kilometre, and it was decreasing at a rate of only 2.6 per year. After the Clean Car Discount was brought in, we saw a huge trend in reducing the average emissions of the vehicles coming into the country and the combination of the Clean Car Discount and Standard was transformational. We got to the point that the average emissions in May 2024 would have been down to 92 grams per kilometre. So if we hadn\u2019t removed the price incentive, vehicle manufacturers absolutely would have been able to meet this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI have to say, this user-pays plan for administering the scheme is really interesting, but there\u2019s no detail about it in the bill. How can we say this is increasing certainty for the industry when, literally, you\u2019re bringing in a power to be able to regulate and charge them money, and we don\u2019t know how we\u2019re going to do that. It\u2019s just Orwellian. I congratulate the Minister on his mastery of doublethink. He\u2019s master of absolute black and white lies and propaganda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002242dbd18ab76046d78fbf82c09b9978e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242dbd18ab76046d78fbf82c09b9978e7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That was very unparliamentary. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bded76dff744334bb8330201fb0fc27\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u00222e1f9b948f2c482f88a9bdedd25aa7e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e1f9b948f2c482f88a9bdedd25aa7e2\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT to speak in support of this bill, which removes red tape which has been concreted in in primary legislation. It\u2019s not as far as ACT would go, but it is a lot further than this Government would perhaps go without ACT. Having secondary legislation to set the standard means that unworkable targets can be modified. So when we\u2019ve got unworkable targets, which are increasing the costs, that can be dealt with. I\u2019m glad to hear the Minister of Transport speaking on moving towards a user-pays model for funding this scheme, and ACT and myself commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u002296c5e2c7ec714ab187a42be3d79f2002\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296c5e2c7ec714ab187a42be3d79f2002\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019m intrigued by all the noise from the Opposition, because this really is a very, very small bill. All it is doing is two things. The first thing it is doing is it is bringing forward by three to four years what is already set in the legislation now, which is to give the Minister of Transport the power to set the Clean Car Standard, by Order in Council anyway, from 2028, and the second bit is that\u2014and I\u2019m surprised particularly by the Green Party saying that they would like the motor vehicle import industry to be subsidised by the taxpayer\u2014it allows cost recovery, which seems eminently sensible. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4f27811c0304d398a7c3db368330f53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4f27811c0304d398a7c3db368330f53\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E There are some very clear and easily articulated reasons why Labour cannot and will not support this bill. And I ask members in this House to turn their attention to an open letter that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment sent to the Minister of Transport this week, given that this is rushed legislation going through this House without the scrutiny of a select committee. So before members get up and say, \u201CThanks, it\u2019s a small bill. It\u2019s only bringing things forward by three years.\u201D I suggest they do some reading and find out the facts of actually what is happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBringing forward the ability of the Minister to make those changes by three years does have implications for our climate targets and how it sits there. I refer the member to the letter from the Hon Simon Upton, who I have a great deal of respect for and who understands these things really well. One of the things that he says is, \u201CThe amendment bill changes the date specified in the regulation making power under section 167C(1)(J)(iv) to bring forward by three years the ability of the Minister to prescribe the targets by way of regulations. It will also cancel the currently legislated ratchet of emissions standards for 2025, 2026, and 2027, anticipating that these will [already have been] set by regulation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis is a political decision, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment spells out. Once again, we are seeing a political decision by a coalition Government who has made it clear that climate action is not a priority. It is a Government that stripped $3\u00A0billion out of climate action in the Budget. It has no plan. We have a Minister of Transport who is also the Minister of Energy, and who has no idea how these portfolios fit with what we need to do as a country in terms of our emissions reduction. We have a Government that is floundering and is putting New Zealanders\u2019 future at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the thing: if New Zealand does not meet its domestic emissions reductions, we have one choice. And that is we go and we pay other countries to reach their domestic emissions reductions, such as what Switzerland is currently doing, paying to put electric buses on the road in Vietnam. Now, every day of the week I will stand in this House and I will defend us reducing our domestic emissions, investing in New Zealand jobs, New Zealand industries, and New Zealanders\u2019 futures, rather than going offshore to pay other countries to do it. That is the future our Government is consigning us to. They do not have a plan. What they are saying is domestic emissions reductions don\u2019t matter, New Zealand jobs don\u2019t matter, the ability of Kiwis to afford to get around doesn\u2019t matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we can see from the cost-benefit analysis that was done on the original legislation that we put through is there were fuel savings of $128.4 million for New Zealanders by bringing in the Clean Car Standard. There was a reduction in maintenance costs of $191\u00A0million, reduction in vehicle ownership costs of $32 million, and a reduced social cost of carbon emissions by $51 million. This is a Government that does not care about that. They are on an ideological crusade to expunge from the statute book any meaningful climate action because they are a Government that is intent on taking New Zealand backwards for their populist ideology. They need to grow up. They need to present New Zealanders with a real and meaningful plan of how it is that they are going to address carbon emissions. And when we had members stand in this House and say, \u201CThis is a simple bill that doesn\u2019t do much.\u201D, it shows they\u2019re not even bothering to read the documentation that sits alongside the legislation that is being introduced into this House. This Government should be ashamed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae6fd75f0a5d40f693cd5474ded2fa87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae6fd75f0a5d40f693cd5474ded2fa87\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E This is another example of this Government getting things done. During the election, National committed to reviewing the Clean Car Standard. Then, in January, the Minister of Transport the very good Minister Simeon Brown, directed officials to begin a comprehensive review of the clean car vehicle standard. Now, here we are in June, a few months later, and this Government is passing the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill in all stages. We are getting things done. We\u2019ve got a mandate from the people of New Zealand. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa7cd209d04e4f88967613954d26788f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa7cd209d04e4f88967613954d26788f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, it\u2019s a pleasure to stand up and speak on this stupid piece of legislation. I say that because, as in so many things, this Government is just too late to the party. What we did was\u2014and you\u2019ve heard from my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods, who had a big part to play in bringing in what was termed the ute tax\u2014this unfair incentive to get more electric cars on the road, to impose a greater cost on the high-emitting vehicles, and then to incentivise the low-emitting ones. And do you know what? It worked. It worked to the point where the uptake of that was so great that it was starting to cost us, but it had within that legislation the ability to fully cost-recover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn its typically ideological way, the coalition Government has come in and said, \u201COh, we\u2019re going to get rid of that. That\u2019s just stupid.\u201D, at a time when we were reducing our emissions across transport, which all the farmers over there should acknowledge and applaud, you know, because that\u2019s one area where there is technology and, in fact, we can make some progress. What was said at the time, particularly from the farmers\u2014and a couple of members over there would be championing it\u2014was \u201COh, this is ridiculous. There\u2019s no options for people in the rural sector.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e34b5ff4ed841d9a9d99db0473787df\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re right\u2014correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211555e7b1041478eb5e0e129caf87e5a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, really? Well, maybe if you\u2019d got out of your little head and got online and started to look at \u201CWhat are the options in electric utes?\u201D\u2014well, let\u2019s go through the list. Let\u2019s go through: LDV, a T60; Volkswagen have an Amarok; Ford have a hybrid and an electric vehicle (EV); JAC are running electric trucks; Rivian in the US; Hilux are running a hybrid\u2014up at the Fieldays, actually. The Ford Ranger will have a plug-in hybrid in two years. They will also have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d173c53d26fe40d392a107f4fe57265b\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, not yet\u2014not yet? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226115b2f9ac6a492bafde2588ff5cc6f1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, just listen. The Ford Ranger will also have an H2X, a hydrogen vehicle. The Australians have got an ACE EV, Ford, Hummer, Tesla, RAM, Rivian\u2014they\u2019re all in what has been deemed the manufacturers\u2019 race for the EV market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EYou know what? We could have been, as we have been in the past, a very good test bed for that market, and, in fact, all of those, or most of those manufacturers would have probably put their vehicles down here to see how they\u2019d perform in the market. I have to acknowledge that the conditions here in New Zealand are not quite as rugged as in Australia, but probably the utes in this market here are used to their full capacity and beyond, and that\u2019s what manufacturers are looking for. That\u2019s why we would have seen more of those utes in our market more quickly, because we had an incentive in place. The previous Government had the vision to get out there and talk to the manufacturers and say that there is an incentive for people to buy those low-emitting vehicles, and it\u2019s paid for by the people with the higher-emitting vehicles. That is smart economic evolution and smart development of our economy, because if we don\u2019t meet our targets, each and every New Zealander will be writing out cheques.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIf we go way back to ask how did all this happen, well, Simon Upton, as a National Government Minister, signed up to our international obligation\u2014and it included agriculture, may I remind the Government\u2014in 1997. It was reinforced through the Paris Agreement\u2014reinforced by the National Government and by the Labour Government\u2014but, of course, we were struggling to work out how to implement it. We took a bold step in the area of transport and provided a cost-neutral incentivisation scheme that would have seen more of these electric vehicles alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELook, this piece of legislation we\u2019re talking about here provides the ability to remove the targets in the Act\u2014which is just crazy; that protects each and every politician\u2014in order to enable targets to be set by regulations, which is a very risky process. This is a dumb piece of legislation. It\u2019s too late, just at the time that the world is moving on, and we could have been at the leading edge of that transition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u002299f2b760bf4841d4973847eaf57d3cb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299f2b760bf4841d4973847eaf57d3cb8\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Well, this Government, we sure know how to get things done. We got rid of the ute tax. All that did was drive up the price of vehicles for some people. Now we\u2019re going to bring in a piece of legislation that\u2019s going to help reduce the price of vehicles for your average Kiwi, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002223ec9ebae605454d85995b79430ce918\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223ec9ebae605454d85995b79430ce918\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This isn\u2019t a good bill. This isn\u2019t a good idea. There are some parts of this bill which I look forward to discussing more carefully at the committee stage, which are the regulation-making powers. This bill would enable a Minister to set regulations which are not appropriately set in secondary legislation. As my colleague the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor has alluded to, there are some problems with that and in moving them forward in this way that the primary legislation does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut this bill is also not a good idea, because it takes away those tools that the Government has retained to ensure that New Zealand is meeting its international climate obligations. When you look at this bill, it doesn\u2019t really tell the full picture of how useful a tool like the clean vehicle standard can be for Government. We had the Minister of Transport presenting what was meant to be a legislative statement but was really a pretty politically charged speech about taxing everything. This wouldn\u2019t have acted like a tax, and I want to quickly explain to the House, in the three minutes I have remaining, why it wouldn\u2019t have acted as a tax. I think this was something that Andy Foster alluded to in his speech too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThese mechanisms in other jurisdictions are for sending the market a really clear signal on what sorts of vehicles should be imported and what sorts of vehicles shouldn\u2019t be. In most jurisdictions that use this kind of tool, large importers are able to offset the high emissions vehicles that they import, with lower emissions vehicles. It\u2019s also done on a weights basis. So if you were Toyota, for example, and you want to be importing the Hilux, which is one of your most popular products, you offset that by importing lots of the electric vehicles that are also popular products for you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022269887ce53674bb5b984ce8cb1e8ff9b\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Of a base.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228db883664ae64c76a5718d1e1296e592\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: So most\u2014exactly. The Hon Peeni Henare is drawing the point here that most of the large vehicle importers in New Zealand that we have in our market are already doing this. They\u2019re already offsetting, basically, those larger products with the smaller ones that are super popular in our market. Used alongside a tool like the Clean Car Discount, you then further incentivise importers to act in this way. It doesn\u2019t act as a tax at all. This Government is interested in stepping out its use of taxes like that, which actually work as a signal for the market, and doing things like time of use charging in our urban centres. This is exactly the same kind of tool which sends a really clear signal to the market that if you are going to be an importer, you need to be making sure that the fleet that you\u2019re importing balances your emissions across the fleet. That\u2019s how we change our emissions profile in our vehicle fleet overall, over the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe know that, basically, New Zealand\u2019s emissions profile\u2014the big levers that we have here are, one, improving our transport fleet, and, two, on agricultural emissions. We\u2019ve got a Government that has just hours ago removed its ability to step out the agricultural sector\u2019s contribution to our climate goals. It has the right to do that. But then you would think that it would be interested in using some of the other tools in its toolkit to be able to impact on the emissions profile of our transport fleet, but, instead, it\u2019s going the other way on that. That\u2019s something that we will have to tackle in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re talking about the reality of this for consumers, this is also a bill that pushes costs onto consumers, with a regime that was originally designed to put costs on the importers. The funny thing here is that if you\u2019ve got a properly designed system, you\u2019re sending a clear market signal to your importers to spread their emissions profile across their import fleet. But now, in this legislation, there\u2019s a sort of policy call which is being made here that the major benefits of the Clean Car Standard accrue to importers of vehicles, and consumers\u2014and so those should be borne by consumers. But that doesn\u2019t actually achieve any of the policy goals that the Government should be advancing here, which is to change the emissions profile of our transport fleet. Again, we really need to turn to this and think carefully in the committee stage about why we set these fees in the first place, what kind of tool this is meant to be for Government, and what kind of outcomes we\u2019re trying to see when we set fees and when we push costs onto consumers instead of spreading them more fairly amongst the industry, to actually change industry and importer behaviour here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EJust returning quickly to my point about the regulatory making powers: yes, it\u2019s useful for Ministers to have some flexibility to introduce new standards, especially if things aren\u2019t ready to go or if we\u2019re getting good feedback from the industry about changes that need to be made. It would be appropriate to do that as an amendment to primary legislation, which this kind of process would allow. So I look forward to the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002291fbed0c907a4f9693c226b789530f8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291fbed0c907a4f9693c226b789530f8e\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to speak in support of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001367\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1971ebb8a194f6f941a19714f1b7b36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1971ebb8a194f6f941a19714f1b7b36\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260d795b8bc1e41ae857473414e6a6356\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd61c8ef8f8f497ea0fa0b36b1bc191f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd61c8ef8f8f497ea0fa0b36b1bc191f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I move, That the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on the second reading of this bill. It\u2019s been interesting listening to members on the other side of this House try to argue the potential of this bill and say, \u201CWell, actually, the cost recovery principles aren\u2019t the right way to do it.\u201D Well, actually, this bill does two things. One is it has a small cost recovery element to it. That is only a very small element of this piece of legislation. The actual cost of operating the system is around $6.5 million per annum for the operation of the clean vehicle standard. For the members opposite to say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s actually going to be the cost that\u2019s going to disrupt the market.\u201D, well, it is a very small amount, ultimately, of the entire cost of what actually\u2014it\u2019s $5 to $10 or $20 a car. It\u2019s a very small amount. We think, when it comes to services the Government is providing, actually it\u2019s important that there is cost recovery in place, because the alternative, which the members on the other side of the House don\u2019t like to talk about, is: who has to pay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe other alternative is taxes have to be increased on every single New Zealander\u2014or the magic money tree. The magic money tree\u2014just appropriate it. So this is about doing two things. This bill does two things. Firstly, it allows for the clean vehicle standard to be amended by regulation, and the argument in favour of that is to ensure that the market settings\u2014we\u2019re not arguing about whether or not there should or shouldn\u2019t be a Clean Car Standard; we accept the importance of a Clean Car Standard; we accept the role that it plays in terms of ensuring New Zealand can get the mix of vehicles and that we can lower the emissions of those vehicles over time. But, at the same time, those standards need to strike the right balance between being stringent enough to ensure New Zealand continues to receive a clean supply of vehicles, but not too stringent that importers cannot meet them, leading to hiked vehicle prices for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EOf course, as members have been saying, the overs and unders in the system need to be met, but if the standard becomes too tight and, actually, the supply of vehicles to achieve its standard is not available, simply the penalties in the regime will be passed on to consumers, and we want to avoid that. So the other side is also arguing for higher vehicle costs for New Zealanders. They\u2019re arguing for two things. They want to increase taxes for New Zealanders and they want to increase the cost of buying a vehicle for New Zealanders. That\u2019s what the other side of the House is arguing by opposing this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe bill does two simple things, and I think they\u2019re very important. I think the third thing that the other side of the House\u2014well, the point that the other side of the House are missing is that the legislation they passed requires me as the Minister of Transport to have started a review of the Clean Car Standard before 30\u00A0June\u00A02024. Now, of course, we know 30\u00A0June\u00A02024 is on Sunday. I was required to start that review before 30\u00A0June\u00A02024. I started that review back in January, following the law that the last Government set, but the reality was they required me to review it, but they\u2019d already legislated the standard, so that they required the Minister of Transport to review a standard that couldn\u2019t be adjusted. That\u2019s exactly the type of legislation the last Government put in the House. So if you think about bad lawmaking, that is the epitome of bad lawmaking. In fact, the officials at the time even said that it should be set by regulation rather than by legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis is a very sensible piece of legislation. It simply changes one very small part of the clean vehicle standard regime in terms of the ability to set the standard by the Minister rather than by legislation. Secondly, it requires a cost recovery model rather than imposing the cost of that on to all New Zealanders, and, as the other side have failed to explain, where are they going to find the money to pay that bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d851ca2d2f7a4fa1ab2bf9cea9565a00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d851ca2d2f7a4fa1ab2bf9cea9565a00\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbdb00cd98de44009b71f6336fb97e40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbdb00cd98de44009b71f6336fb97e40\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Look, this is the second reading stage and usually in the normal scheme of things, we would now\u00A0be referring to a select committee report; we would be thinking about the various aspects that those who had submitted to that process will have said about this proposed legislation. Whether it is narrow, small, or otherwise, it would have still been subject to the same process. What we\u2019ve heard is less than five minutes from the Minister of Transport in his second contribution this evening on this bill, and I don\u2019t think members on this side of the House are none the wiser as to some of the issues that we raised in the first reading contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve asked the Minister to share with the House who he consulted with as part of the process of bringing this bill to the House. It\u2019s not as if he ran out of time\u2014there were minutes on the clock\u2014and yet we have still not had that particular issue addressed. I think that\u2019s actually very serious, because usually by now we would have heard from the community and submitters and heard what their views are. Now, the Minister has clearly undertaken some consultation\u2014we know that\u2014but we do not know the details of who he has consulted with, and why is that? Is it because he is ashamed of the fact that he hasn\u2019t actually consulted with some industry participants who would give him some information that actually it\u2019s not a good idea to bring this bill to the House? We are still waiting for him to address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ELook, the Clean Car Standard was phased in from December\u00A02022 and the prime focus was to target a significant reduction in carbon dioxide emissions for light vehicles. Now, that has an everyday impact; it has an everyday effect. When we look at the context of light vehicle emissions across the entirety of the emissions spectrum, we know that they\u00A0are a significant source of transportation emissions within this country of Aotearoa New Zealand. Yes, we know about the environmental factors, but what we\u2019re still waiting to hear from the Minister is the level of consultation of the individuals that he\u2019s had. Has he talked with any environmental groups?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237c2a2e4e356469b996d4a7796a5bfdc\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Probably not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb6e3dd4626d419a92162a2b1a6ba6a4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Probably not; Mr Henare, we don\u2019t know. I guess we will have the committee, the whole House stage to work through that. We can pose the questions to him, but we can only hope that the Minister will actually address them. There is an absolute need here in New Zealand to increase the number of low- to no-emission light vehicles within the fleet so that members of the public and others can actually\u2014and companies and the like\u2014access that in terms of their provision. That\u2019s exactly what the Clean Car Standard does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat we are talking about here is effectively enabling the Minister, by way of secondary legislation, to water down, potentially, what the standards would be. At the moment, they are in primary legislation. If the Minister chooses to execute it via regulation, yes, there is a requirement for the Minister to consult prior to exercising those secondary legislation rights. I am still looking forward to hearing, hopefully, from Simeon Brown how he intends to approach that\u2014if he intends to approach that\u2014and why it is that he identifies the industry participants or the individuals who he would consult with or thereabouts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere is absolutely a need to encourage and incentivise an uptake of low- to no-emission light vehicles, and there is nothing from this Government\u2014and certainly nothing in this legislation\u2014that locks that in and seeks to address and support that as well. Earlier this evening, my colleagues the Hon Dr Megan Woods and the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor talked about the fact that if we don\u2019t do anything in this space, then our country will simply have to write a cheque to address the limitations as a form of mitigation as a result, and that is simply unacceptable. When the Government has an opportunity to do something about it and they\u2019re choosing not to provide the certainty, that is completely unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat we do have in front of us is a copy of the regulatory impact statement, so let\u2019s have a look at that. The regulatory impact statement does have the numbers and it tells us that there are around 1,000 vehicle importers who import around about 300,000 new and used motor vehicles over the course of a year. Now, there are two options that have been identified in the regulatory impact statement as to how this particular user-pays charge\u2014as the Minister has said it is\u2014could be garnered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe first is that you could simply just spread the total amount across all of the importers, and basically there would be an annual fee that would come out at the end of the machine. Now, there is some inequity in that because if you are a smaller player\u2014a smaller importer\u2014you still pay the same amount or the same fee on an annual basis as a big importer, right? So I get that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other option is that it could be by way of recovery, and I sense this is the direction in which the Minister is heading, by way of a per-car fee. So it didn\u2019t matter what the price of the vehicle is, but the car would have a component\u2014and there\u2019s a table that outlines the various costs per vehicle and how much that would look like, noting that there is a set administration fee regardless of the price of the vehicle\u2014and that\u2019s how that would happen. Now, that\u2019s perhaps a little bit more equitable, but there are administration costs in there as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s really interesting is this suggestion from the Minister that, \u201CWell, it\u2019s $5 to $20. It\u2019s really a small amount, $5 to $20.\u201D Well, how does that compare with the $2.25 that senior citizens got from this year\u2019s Budget per week? Just a small amount: $2.25. Now, the Minister seems to think that $5 to $20 is a small amount. When he reflects on his own Government\u2019s Budget\u2014and noting that this was part of the Budget urgency motion originally that didn\u2019t manage to get through for the Government\u2014there are questions around that. So the Minister might take the view or the perspective, that this, in the general scheme of things, is a relatively small amount of money. But we need to balance that with the incentivisation that it provides for purchasers to think about what their choices will mean for emissions in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, I do accept that, yes, the fixed-fee percentage might be small, but it could be seen as a tax. Call it what you like, it could be seen as a\u2014it is a tax, actually. When you apply it onto a vehicle, it is a tax. Every single bit of dollar that this Government seems to need to meet the promise to fund $2.9 billion for landlords, perhaps that\u2019s the reason that is driving this decision from the Minister. He will argue, of course, I\u2019m sure\u2014well, we don\u2019t know because we don\u2019t seem to hear from him; he doesn\u2019t take his full call allocation as part of this debate. But he might form the view that, actually, all of this sort of stuff does add up in the end of the day, but it\u2019s not actually really worth it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI think this will allow the Government to effectively authorise and permit or allow dirtier cars, less efficient cars, to increase in numbers coming in of vehicles that would have higher operating costs over the tenure of the vehicle\u2019s lifetime as well, and will also seek to penalise those for whom it\u2019s a little bit more difficult to make the decision\u2014it\u2019s a little bit more difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why this standard and this piece of legislation worked in tandem with the clean car rebate\u2014the Clean Car Discount; they were two pieces of legislation that worked in tandem. Now, we could give the Government a little bit of fair dues, I suppose, if they\u2014as they have\u2014rolled back and struck out the Clean Car Discount in that rebate. But they have not replaced it with any other adequate incentive to encourage purchasers to uptake no- to lower-emission vehicles as part of their household choices or their company choices, and this is really, really unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt is important for those carbon dioxide targets to have a real sense of ambition. When we\u2019re talking about the transportation sector\u2014which we all know, the sector emissions are huge; they are significant\u2014taking steps within this sector and making a change will make a huge difference in terms of our emissions profile and the role that New Zealand will play in terms of continuing to do our bit. In fact, if we are to have any progress or make any progress towards our climate change aspirations, we need to ensure that we are actively pursuing\u2014and that the Minister is actively pursuing\u2014ways in which the transportation sector\u2019s emissions can actually be reduced. This piece of legislation is certainly not doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo we continue to oppose this bill, and that\u2019s actually a very easy choice for this side of the House. Because, from first reading to second reading, we have not heard anything in terms of addressing the concerns, answering the questions that we have posed to the Minister and others, and we still encourage the Minister\u2014as we work through to the committee of the whole House stage\u2014to provide the answers to give some answer to us at this stage. We continue to not support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002210c8c8dfca6e415eb59f3fa9ebf73a54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210c8c8dfca6e415eb59f3fa9ebf73a54\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Before I get into the weeds of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill and the difficulties that I see with it, I just want to put it in the larger context of why we need an effective Clean Car Standard and an effective price incentive, like the Clean Car Discount, and why New Zealand benefits from those policies. Everyone in New Zealand benefits from those policies and that\u2019s because we are in a climate crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EPutting fossil fuels into the atmosphere is changing the atmosphere, it\u2019s trapping more heat, it\u2019s creating more extreme weather events, and we\u2019ve known about this for decades. I appreciate that maybe not everyone in the House has known about it for decades, but there are climate scientists, and certainly people in the Green Party have known about it for decades. We\u2019ve been saying it, because a whole bunch of countries got together and signed up to the Kyoto Protocol in the early 1990s, and around that time\u2014and I know, because I was growing up in the United States at that time\u2014there started to be a kind of organised lobby against climate action, and the organised lobby was funded by fossil fuel companies because they didn\u2019t want the world to take action; they wanted to sell more oil and gas, not because it\u2019s good for all of us but because it was good for them, because they were making money out of it. But they knew that it was going to make life more difficult, and impossible in some parts of the planet, if we carried on doing it. Of course, it\u2019s more than just fossil fuels, but that\u2019s the big driving one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIn other countries, where they took climate change seriously and they didn\u2019t have so many lobbyists from car manufacturers who didn\u2019t want to change what they were doing, because they wanted to carry on making big profits, they brought in policies like fuel economy standards, and they brought in policies like feebates. And what happened? Their vehicle fleets became more efficient. That efficiency is good for everyone because it means we spend less money to drive a certain distance and to move our goods a certain distance. But the thing is that, without those policies in place, the car manufacturers\u2014and the American car manufacturers in particular kept lobbying to not have those standards\u2014found it more profitable in the short term because the higher-emissions vehicles were less costly for them to make and they could sell them for more. People don\u2019t really take into account the ongoing operating costs of the vehicle when they purchase their vehicle, so they\u2019ll pay more for a vehicle that actually costs them more in the long run.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, this is a very easy problem for a country like New Zealand to solve, because we don\u2019t have an oil industry that actually powers our cars. All of our oil is exported. All of our oil has always been exported because it\u2019s not the kind of oil that you refine into petrol and put in your cars and trucks. So we do import oil, and we could still have the benefit of exporting the oil that we produce while having the benefit of not spending money importing oil. For those who really care about farming and dairy and its contribution for New Zealand, they might be interested to know that all of our dairy exports do not pay for all of our car and fuel imports on an annual basis. So, if we can do the same amount of business with spending less money on imported petrol and diesel and spending less money on imported cars, that\u2019s a direct productivity gain to New Zealand, something the Government parties should be interested in. But they are not, because the truth is the Government parties are the parties of the status quo and they are the parties of the big corporate lobbyists. They\u2019ve been lobbied for this bill by the car industries that import the highest-emitting vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI welcome the Government parties to listen to reason on this, because the cost-benefit analysis of the Clean Car Standard and the Clean Car Discount together was positive, and it mainly benefited all New Zealanders, who would then be spending less money on petrol to drive around. If Government parties actually cared about climate change, which they clearly don\u2019t, and making some sort of contribution, they would take seriously the evidence around the policies that are going to lead to more efficient vehicles in New Zealand and lower-emissions vehicles. They\u2019ve already demonstrated they have no interest in making our cities more efficient for transport. They don\u2019t want to make it easier for kids to walk and cycle. They\u2019re actually going to make it more dangerous for kids to walk and cycle to school. They\u2019re going to make it more difficult for people to take public transport. They\u2019re trying to kill rail freight in this country by cancelling a contract with an overseas ally in South Korea\u2014shocking, shocking for New Zealand\u2019s reputation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EHere we are; we\u2019ve got the data right in front of us. Before the Clean Car Discount and Standard were brought in, the average emissions of vehicles coming into New Zealand was 189g per kilometre. The car industry said, \u201CWe can\u2019t change that. We can\u2019t possibly change that.\u201D But then, when we brought in the Clean Car Discount, it dropped quite rapidly to 165g per kilometre, decreasing 30g per kilometre per year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bf0332b27b0484383d35a1716f6ac79\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: The ute tax, you mean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223211ca664c4041d5ba41fb8bbd3ecb56\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: And when we had the Clean Car Discount and Clean Car Standard operating, it dropped to 136g per kilometre. Now, I hear members opposite bringing up a kind of pejorative description of that policy, and I invite those members to reflect what is really important here. We all need to work together in order to solve the climate crisis. We have an opportunity to work together to have a more efficient vehicle fleet, a more efficient transport system that is good for New Zealand\u2019s productivity. The members opposite say no. They turn it into a culture war that is not based on any evidence whatsoever and then they blame it on me. Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213d1393f292542f9a5500562558731b2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, talk to the Chair, not engage across the House in conversation like that. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaa5bebd45ff4392a413a15543b93b5c\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I welcome you to notice the level of interjections and perhaps tell members opposite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215fc1348cf9e48e98a881f9b7947fe3b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I just commented on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b3be42663574a0487663dc12347bd85\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. So if we want an effective policy to reduce emissions from our vehicle fleet, which everyone in New Zealand benefits from, except the\u00A0very small number of people who happen to be selling high-emitting vehicles, and they can switch to selling low-emitting vehicles\u2014that\u2019s the purpose of the policy. It\u2019s not just about changing the consumer\u2019s choice; it\u2019s about changing the option that is even available for consumers to make. When we didn\u2019t have fuel economy standards\u2014and we were one of only three countries in the developed world to not have fuel economy standards, along with Russia and Australia, which is now bringing in some sort of standards\u2014we were a dumping ground for the most polluting, inefficient vehicles in the world. How is that good for New Zealand? How? Can any member opposite explain to me how it\u2019s good for New\u00A0Zealand to be a dumping ground for high-polluting vehicles? Is there any rationale for that? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we have the Clean Car Standard, and what this bill is doing is actually introducing a whole lot of uncertainty, because it is taking away standards and targets that were set in legislation years ago, after a thorough consultation process and a full select committee process, in which everybody was able to make their voices heard. Those have been known by the industry for years now. It\u2019s taking away that certainty and it\u2019s saying, \u201CWe don\u2019t know what the targets are going to be two years from now. We don\u2019t know. The Government is going to make it up. It\u2019s not going to go through a select committee process.\u201D It\u2019s going through this bill, under urgency, and they are clearly being lobbied by the highly polluting vehicle importers, who don\u2019t want to have to meet the standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI welcome members opposite to show us how it is that they are introducing certainty by taking away already agreed and consulted upon targets that have been known for years and replacing it with nothing tonight or tomorrow, and then saying the Cabinet is going to make up its own decision about what those targets are and just pass them without going through a consultation process. Clearly we\u2019re getting closer to those years of 2025, 2026, 2027, and what everybody has known would be the targets is no longer going to be the targets. And there\u2019s this totally uncertain scheme for recovering the cost from the vehicle importers themselves. So I don\u2019t see how anyone can say this bill is increasing certainty for the vehicle industry or for anyone when it\u2019s clearly intruding a whole lot of uncertainty and an unknown cost recovery scheme, unknown targets for the next three years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EClearly, combined with the removal of the Clean Car Discount, we have seen the average emissions of vehicles coming into the country jump up to 161g per kilometre, and there\u2019s simply no way to practically achieve the outcome that we all know we have to achieve, which is reducing carbon emissions. There are huge benefits to reducing carbon emissions. There\u2019s almost no losers in New Zealand from these sorts of policies. So it is a real shame that the Government parties in Opposition opposed these policies when they are policies that could have been supported across party and would be effective at getting a wide range of benefits for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u00222ad2fd8b1c6549c080000edc4b9f9a12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ad2fd8b1c6549c080000edc4b9f9a12\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of this bill, because, you know, New Zealand\u2019s a beautiful country. It\u2019s a great country. I love this country to bits, but I have to say, I don\u2019t think the international motor vehicle developers are clinging on with bated breath to see how New Zealand goes on their clean vehicle standard. They are private industries who go about investing for the future of their company and making sure that their consumers get what they want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI am very happy to have heard read out on the other side of the House a list of companies that have developed electric vehicles for utes for tradies and farmers to get a piece of, because it just shows that that sort of thing is happening in the world. Tradies like myself, who go out to work in a vehicle that\u2019s supplied for them to go and do their job based on their requirements\u2014it\u2019s a great thing to have in a free country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EFacts matter. I mean, we\u2019ve just gone a quick google search of this. Statistics New Zealand, for the end of June\u00A02022\u2014it turns out that fuel imports were $7.1 billion and car imports were $6.8 billion. So we\u2019re talking roughly $14 billion. It turns out our exports of dairy were $25.6 billion. So I don\u2019t know where this number that was being thrown about\u2014that they are combined\u2014was coming from, but perhaps we\u2019ll hear some more later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ELook, we want to see lower vehicle costs for the hard-working, backbone tradies and farmers of New Zealand that Labour used to care about. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u002241ac52c943014c81a4312878fbbacfe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241ac52c943014c81a4312878fbbacfe3\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Two quick things: it seems to me that the Opposition is assuming a couple of things are going to happen. The first one is that the downward trajectory that there is at the moment, in terms of the clean vehicle system emissions, is somehow going to stop. Well, it clearly is not going to stop. The second one is the assumption that somehow the Minister will actually turn that around, and I don\u2019t think that\u2019s going to happen either. So I think that this is simply allowing the Minister to give a greater degree of flexibility, and that\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5d717654f2a4656b59f7731d89ff6c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5d717654f2a4656b59f7731d89ff6c0\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The contributions that we\u2019ve heard from every member on that side of the House remind me of the many Remuera tractors, Pakuranga tractors that I see every day in T\u0101maki-makau-rau from members in Auckland, who sit there with their arm out of the ranger, scoffing at Clean Car Standards that this country relies on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe heard some data there that talked about facts from a few years ago, which was why we put these standards in place, to make sure this country can once again lead the world in being green. What this Government is doing is creating uncertainty in the market. The Minister\u2019s going to say, \u201CDon\u2019t worry, the market will sort itself out.\u201D Well, when these standards were decided upon, it was made clear that the inequities will continue to happen in this country, with those who can afford to buy the vehicles, and those who can\u2019t. So the biggest cost gets heaped on the people who can\u2019t afford it the most. Let that one sink in\u2014not the Remuera person who drives a Ford Ranger, not the person in Pakuranga who drives a Toyota Hilux, but the opportunity for families to have a car that meets these standards that allows it to be affordable is being stripped away. When we remove these standards, that\u2019s what it does. It makes sure that this country does become a dumping ground for old cars\u2014fossil fuel - burning cars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhile the member on the other side of the House talks about \u201COh, don\u2019t worry, car producers, that\u2019s not what they\u2019re fixated on. They\u2019re not fixated on New Zealand.\u201D, that might be fair and well in his world, but when all of those diesel-burning, fossil fuel - burning cars get dumped here\u2014and let\u2019s be very clear: a large number of second-hand cars get dumped here\u2014you continue to create further inequities in this country. That side of the House doesn\u2019t understand the longer repercussions of removing this clean vehicle standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe heard on that side of the House that \u201COh, you know, the cost is pushed out on to those who sell these vehicles, and ultimately they\u2019re pushed on to the consumer.\u201D When we don\u2019t meet the standards we signed up to, we have to pay a bill, and the taxpayer is going to have to pay that bill. That\u2019s what this Government is doing to the New Zealand taxpayer. But it\u2019s OK, you\u2019ll get to drive your Ford Ranger; you\u2019ll get to drive your Toyota Hilux.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat I garner from a number of the interjections from the other side of the House is that the technology\u2019s not there in the ute system. Well, that\u2019s actually not the case. Interesting, I was driving along in Auckland the other day, and I got overtaken by two hybrid Toyota Hilux utes\u2014trucks, utes that were designed to meet a very strict and demanding target, which is something that this country bought into. It\u2019s something that taxpayers have bought into. It\u2019s something that most of the world has bought into because they know the impacts of climate change. So when we see the Minister coming forward with the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill, we can\u2019t support this bill in the House. We need to make sure that we are a responsible citizen in the world. What we\u2019re not seeing from this Government is a clear plan on how we\u2019re going to meet these targets that we all signed up to\u2014we all signed up to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOnce upon a time in this House, we all talked about the need for climate change measures to ensure that our children and our grandchildren have a future. This bill doesn\u2019t do that for us. It takes us backwards. It continues to say, \u201COh, the farmers.\u201D We\u2019re here for the farmers too\u2014we\u2019re here for the farmers too. I want to paraphrase Mr James Meager: \u201CThe right don\u2019t own the farmers; the right don\u2019t own the businesses.\u201D Get the hell out of here! I can tell that member that all of those Aucklanders sitting there driving their utes and supporting their constituents to drive more utes\u2014wow. When they go back to the voting booths in a couple of years\u2019 time, they\u2019ll see that ultimately the bill is going to fall to the taxpayer when we pay because we didn\u2019t meet the obligations that we signed up to. It\u2019s as simple as that\u2014it\u2019s as simple as that. They are kicking the can down the road; or, in this instance: well, they put the can on the back of a ute and set it off into the sunset. It\u2019s not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat I can also say, because it\u2019s the same Minister that has the challenges with supplying power in Northland\u2014Mr Grant McCallum will agree with this\u2014perhaps it\u2019s the Government\u2019s way of saying that they\u2019re too scared to invest in proper infrastructure to allow electric vehicles (EVs) to operate in this country. That\u2019s what it sounds like to me, Mr Grant McCallum: not enough power in Northland to fuel the EV cars in Northland, my friend. But that\u2019s OK because, apparently, this Government have a plan. I\u2019m yet to see one; what we\u2019re going to see at the passing of this bill, ultimately the New Zealand taxpayer isn\u2019t going to see one either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u002223293778d1db4c5ba302d9d39ab13b25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223293778d1db4c5ba302d9d39ab13b25\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a call on this bill. I\u2019m going to divide my speech into four parts. The first part will talk about the wider context that this bill operates in. The second part talks about one aspect of the bill, which is the user-pays aspect in clause 5, in new section 167BA.The third aspect sets targets under clause 6. Then, the last part of my speech will talk about the Government\u2019s use of urgency. Just to be clear, I echo the words of my colleague and friend Hon Julie Anne Genter that we will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThe wider context that this bill operates in is, you know, since the Budget, this Government has passed legislation that\u2019s undermined our climate response every step of the way. Earlier today, they passed a bill exempting the biggest emitter\u2014the biggest emitter\u2014in our economy, the biggest emitter in New Zealand, the agricultural sector, from having to pay its agricultural emissions. The second bill that they passed today was the Forests (Log Traders and Forestry Advisers Repeal) Amendment Bill. Now, we\u2019ve heard during the committee of the whole House stage that the Minister of Transport didn\u2019t commission any analysis around whether it might flood the markets and cause the emissions trading scheme auctions to fail further. The third aspect that they passed was the Waste Minimisation (Waste Disposal Levy) Amendment Bill, which, again, the Minister for the Environment didn\u2019t say that they would guarantee that it would be used for waste minimisation funds. Now, I\u2019m going to talk about why that\u2019s important and why the wider context leads us to distrust the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ENow, the user-pays context that the polluter pays\u2014it\u2019s not a bad principle in theory. I think polluters should have to pay for the cost of the pollution. The problem is that clause\u00A06 doesn\u2019t actually set the standards; it gives the Minister of Transport the power to set the standards. Now, in the context of everything that\u2019s going on so far, in the context of all the anti-climate action that this Government has taken, how could we possibly trust that this Government is actually sincere about reducing emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e145bb75c842fa92dfb0305f3a17fe\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f17cdd82089f4311b8b2356b7f6f27f6\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not\u2014they\u2019re not\u2014that\u2019s right. They\u2019re absolutely not. We\u2019ve seen that they\u2019re willing to exempt our biggest sector from paying emissions. We\u2019ve seen earlier this year how they were going to\u2014in the changes around the road-user charges, how they charged petrol hybrid electric vehicles the same as the big polluters. So with the Minister setting these standards, in theory, the Minister could actually set higher charges for less polluting vehicles and lower charges for higher polluting vehicles. We just don\u2019t know. With the sort of standard of climate policy that this Government is doing, I wouldn\u2019t entirely rule that out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ENow, the second aspect of this bill is that it allows the Minister to set the targets, it abolishes the existing targets, which, as we\u2019ve heard adequately from this House, are already set, are already established, are already certain, and they\u2019re introducing more uncertainty. We simply have no idea what these targets might be. So the cumulative effect of all of that is to actually weaken New Zealand\u2019s climate response. In the Minister\u2019s speech, he explicitly made a commitment that the targets would be less stringent than the current ones. So in the context of that, how could we support this bill when it\u2019s going to be a retrograde step for the climate, and it\u2019s going to be a retrograde step for the people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWhen we delay the climate transition, the cost of it doesn\u2019t actually fall on the most well-off in society; the burdens of climate change and the burdens of climate change impact fall on those least able to pay for it. So by delaying the climate transition\u2014which, let\u2019s be clear, the Government has been very explicit that this bill has been designed to decrease the standards, which will delay the climate transition and which will lead to New Zealand beyond a dumping ground for high emission vehicles\u2014it\u2019s not doing anyone any favours. We\u2019ve seen that global volatility around the world has led to higher petrol prices. I mean, I\u2019m not a ball-gazer, I\u2019m not a fortune teller, but if I were to make a bet, I would bet on more uncertainty in terms of oil, in terms of global markets, in terms of the price of oil going up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EIn encouraging high-emission petrol vehicles, you\u2019re locking the poorest in society in to forms of transport and forms of vehicles that will actually cost them more in the long run. It doesn\u2019t make sense. And look, the urgency is really bad too, but I didn\u2019t get to that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea416b06087d4b169ed59bffe58a4ebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea416b06087d4b169ed59bffe58a4ebb\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I rise in support of this very good bill. The farming community of New Zealand\u2014we\u2019ve got rid of the ute tax. I just want to assure the member on the other side of the House that I do not drive a \u201CRemuera tractor\u201D, I drive a \u201CMaungat\u016Broto tractor\u201D. And from Maungat\u016Broto, I can see the Brynderwyns, which\u00A0are opening tonight\u2014one hour from now. Great news. With that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfd6fc6367d3451cb35cd71b6766fb1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfd6fc6367d3451cb35cd71b6766fb1f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. There are 300,000 vehicles imported into New Zealand every year, roughly\u201425,000 a month. The only chance that you get to make those 300,000 vehicles efficient is when you import them and register them for the first time, because once they\u2019re here, they\u2019re valuable and someone uses them to the end of their useful life. So if you want to improve the efficiency of the vehicle fleet, you\u2019ve got to do it at the point of import and first registration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe know that by the time the last Government was voted out of office by the crowd on\u00A0the other side, of those vehicles that were being imported every month, 48 percent were\u00A0hybrids, 7 percent were plug-in hybrids, and 20 percent were full battery electric vehicles. That\u2019s a total of roughly 76 percent. Three-quarters of the vehicles being imported were hybrids, plug-in hybrids, or battery electric vehicles. What\u2019s that now? What\u2019s that now? They got rid of the Clean Car Discount, because they\u2019re all arse about face on the other side. They didn\u2019t come up with a mechanism to replace the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241d2424c582b48d3aae64fa2d13d50b5\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t say that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109c1e16b4e4464fb5fd121758e092bb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s perfectly parliamentary, I would have thought. Maybe I won\u2019t repeat that comment, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220619dd73e6bc42c7bab1ea92408733b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It speaks to the member\u2019s own habits more than anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc603f83afbb4e84b60625c7dd4cf97a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: What are we at now? Now, 41 percent of the vehicles are petrol and 16 percent of them diesel, which is a total of 57 percent being internal combustion motors rather than 25 percent as it was prior to the change of Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, if the Government was going to get rid of the Clean Car Discount, it should have already increased the standard to make the standard do the work, because every month that that is delayed, we get another 25,000 vehicles, half of which are internal combustion, increasing our emissions. And every one of them will be belching greenhouse gas emissions until they\u2019re completely worn out in 15 years\u2019 time. So the indifference that this Government is showing to emissions in transport is going to have a long-term consequence both for the environment in terms of those increased greenhouse gas emissions, for New Zealand\u2019s imported oil bill, because we have to import more oil. The case for electric vehicles in New Zealand is better than virtually any other country in the world, because 85\u00A0percent of our electricity is renewable and generated locally and it\u2019s going up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIf this was the only mistake that the Government was making on climate, it would be lamentable, but you\u2019d think, well, maybe they\u2019ll get it right eventually. But, of course, as others have said, this is part of a long litany of mistakes that are already being made deliberately by the other side on climate. They signed up to the zero-carbon Act, they pretended to buy into the budgets, just like they pretended to buy into the child-poverty targets, but it was just a ruse. It was just a ruse to get elected, because everything they have done tells the truth, and the truth is they\u2019re taking this country backwards now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENo, there\u2019s lots of reasons the National Party are going back in the polls. This isn\u2019t the main reason; it\u2019s one of the reasons, but it\u2019s not the main reason. The main reason is because they\u2019re dragging the economy into the dirt. But they show their economic illiteracy in this piece of legislation, because it increases the bills of New Zealanders, it increases our current account deficit, and it takes the country backwards on climate as well. They say they\u2019re going to rely on the price of carbon through the emissions trading scheme (ETS), and what do they do? Well, they gut it by taking 50 percent of the emissions out that relate it to agriculture. Now, agriculture was always going to have a sweet deal. They were always going to have 90 or 95 percent free allocation or the equivalent thereof. But now they can completely let off the hook to the cost of the rest of the economy who bear that cost of the non - price based measure in agriculture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, the guys on the other side, they say, \u201CI trust the ETS. We\u2019ll let the ETS do the work.\u201D Well, I tell you what: that\u2019s a market. That\u2019s a market. And I tell you what: we understand markets on this side. The other side don\u2019t. And I tell you what: the private sector understands markets. They understand that National\u2019s ruining this market, because what\u2019s happened to the ETS price that they say they\u2019re going to rely upon more than the prior Government? The prices collapse. The private sector doesn\u2019t believe that the National Party is going to use the price on carbon to release emissions, because it\u2019s gone down from about $75 per tonne of carbon when we left office to $50. It\u2019s $75 to $50, a 33 percent drop in the price of carbon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI see we\u2019ve got the ACT Party saying, \u201CHooray, hooray, hooray.\u201D Well, that is absolutely typical, given the members that are sitting there, that they would celebrate the price and the collapse of carbon when the Government that they are part of says that they\u2019re going to rely upon the price of carbon to drive emission reductions. As it happens, the price on carbon actually isn\u2019t the most effective way of reducing your emissions in cars. Cars are the most energy-intensive item that most people ever own in their life. You buy a fridge in New Zealand that has an efficiency standard. You buy a washing machine that has an efficiency standard. You get a dishwasher. You get a heat pump. All these things have efficiency standards. That\u2019s why you need efficiency standards at the point of import for the most energy-intensive carbon-producing item that most people use. That\u2019s why you do need to have standards. That\u2019s why this Government should already have toughened the standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation shouldn\u2019t be here kicking down the code, leaving the discretion to the Minister to actually slacken those standards. I don\u2019t trust that they won\u2019t do that. But the shame is that they should have already done the analysis as to what is the effect of the abolition of the Clean Car Standard on the make-up of the fleet. The only way to compensate that, if you\u2019re not going to use feebates, like that system had, is to have a more rigorous standard for vehicles at the point they are imported. So, every month, of those 25,000 vehicles that are coming in every month, the number of those that are petrol vehicles has gone up astronomically\u2014and diesel vehicles\u2014and the number of hybrids, battery electric\u2014how backwards is that as a country? Aren\u2019t you ashamed of that? I\u2019m ashamed of that. We\u2019re a better country than that. Members on the other side of the House should hang their heads in shame. We\u2019re a better country than that. We\u2019re going backwards, and we don\u2019t even have an industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI can almost understand the economic illiteracy of the National Party members when it comes to agricultural admissions. They go in for simple tropes that somehow they\u2019re protecting the agricultural industry. They\u2019re actually not long term. They\u2019re actually making a mistake there too. But I can understand their protectionist instincts. They\u2019ve always had them on that side, protectionist instincts for agriculture. I can almost understand that. But you haven\u2019t even got a car industry to protect. We don\u2019t make cars in New Zealand. We end up producing the bag end of cars produced by the other parts of the world, in part because those cars often can\u2019t be sold in the countries in which they\u2019re made now, because they\u2019ve got standards that are tougher than ours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo, look, economic illiteracy\u2014it\u2019s why you guys are going backwards in the polls. You know you\u2019re worried. Look at them smiling. You\u2019re going to come back here and you\u2019re going to one day apologise to the people of New Zealand for every month of an extra 10,000 petrol and diesel vehicles coming into the country that could be battery electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids and hybrids that would be saving people money at the pumps and actually helping save the world. I know that it sounds a bit dramatic to say that, but you know, we\u2019re actually pretty close to the tipping point. Don\u2019t you take fright at the fact that people are dying going for walks in Greece at the moment from these unprecedented heat waves? Don\u2019t you worry about the temperatures of the sea being higher than has ever been recorded in history? Don\u2019t you worry about that? I know I do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI actually accept the science. I accept that New Zealand has to do our share, because if a country with all our advantages and no car industry to protect can\u2019t do the right thing here and actually have a decent standard to make sure that those vehicles aren\u2019t imported about 15 years before they\u2019re worn out, it\u2019s pretty poor policy, and that\u2019s why this side of the House will be voting against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce128e52294e4e34bf038c395652dddc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce128e52294e4e34bf038c395652dddc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for the long list of things that I need to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0808f48b7d945ed885b556d528bc9ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0808f48b7d945ed885b556d528bc9ce\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I just couldn\u2019t help myself, sitting there listening to that diatribe of absolute waffle from David Parker, when he said, \u201COh, Labour is the party of agriculture.\u201D, and, yet, they turned up to Fieldays for a day and then left, didn\u2019t have a stand there, and rolled out their Red Bands from the packet, without a spec of dirt on it, and said to the community, \u201CHey, we represent you.\u201D Nah, nah, nah\u2014nah, nah, nah\u2014we don\u2019t buy it on this side and the New Zealand public see straight through it, and I commend the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022e969134837ce4c27b7c7e4a852a30b20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e969134837ce4c27b7c7e4a852a30b20\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to take a short call on this second reading of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill. I want to thank members around the House for engaging in what has been a really interesting and lively debate, and it points to a good committee of the whole House stage coming, where we can get into some of these issues. But there is still a misunderstanding about two important aspects of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EOn the one hand, we have members opposite shouting \u201Cute tax\u201D. What\u2019s this then? Grant McCallum, what does this do? What is this? If one would think that the Clean Car Discount was a ute tax, then what is a piece of legislation which spreads cost from clean small cars to large, big cars? How is that different to the tax that you\u2019re worried about? Luckily, I\u2019m here to tell you, mate. The difference is that in this sort of legislation, you\u2019re designing a tool that Government can use that isn\u2019t intended to pass on those costs, because they\u2019re costs that are designed to be borne by the industry, not the consumer. Those are generally large sector participants in the industry who can adjust what kind of cars they import so that they do not pay the tax. So when the National Party talks about things like time-of-use charging, you might say that was a tax, but it\u2019s not intended to be paid; it\u2019s intended to change the behaviour of people who, if they did not change their behaviour, would pay the tax. So in this scenario we have large importers but also small importers who are able to offset certain cars between themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EA really interesting and recent example is that this system as it\u2019s being designed now would create some difficult costs for importers of small cars that are not hybrids or electric vehicles. So say a car like a Suzuki Swift, which is a small car so it doesn\u2019t enjoy the weight settings that exempt, say, a Toyota Hilux from some of these requirements but is not an electric car. Those cars are on the receiving end of some of the more difficult parts of this. But you have Toyota actually saying in the media recently that they are interested in working with Suzuki because they have so many really good cars for a scheme like this and that they import lots of small electric cars that they would be able to offset not only their large Hilux offerings but also something like a Suzuki Swift imported here. So we see really good examples of where the industry can not only avoid this cost but are also interested in working together to make sure that the entire industry is lowering its emissions profile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI wanted to make sure that we all know that point going on to select committee stage, because to describe this as a tax\u2014one might see this as a tax, but it\u2019s not something that will be paid by consumers. It\u2019s not designed in a way that is designed to put costs on to consumers, and so we need to be debating what we\u2019re really debating here when we get to that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second point that I just want to clarify is that the Minister gave a bit of a confusing explanation of New Zealand being car takers in a world of car makers, because most of the cars that are imported into New Zealand are already compliant with international standards that far exceed our own standards. When the member Cameron Luxton stood and gave his contribution about the industry being far ahead of New Zealand standards, that\u2019s right. But it\u2019s not because industry are stepping themselves out faster and faster and faster than other legislation, it\u2019s because in Europe they\u2019re up to Euro 7 now, and in 2035, they will have banned combustion engines. So every large car manufacturer that imports into the European markets that share these standards needs to comply with much higher standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ETo give you another practical example, that\u2019s why the Mitsubishi diesel-engine cars that we have in New Zealand use a diesel particulate filter, which is not required by these standards but is required by those Euro 7 standards. It\u2019s a way of processing the particulates in diesel fuel to make sure that they are compliant with the emissions requirements in Europe. That doesn\u2019t need to happen in New Zealand legislation, but it\u2019s something that is a standard in all of those cars that are imported here. The flipside of that is that if we don\u2019t have legislation like this, we get ourselves on par with those countries who will take any cars, and all of the cars that don\u2019t comply with legislation anywhere else in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u0022357640f55098444e8ae75ad6d147a90f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022357640f55098444e8ae75ad6d147a90f\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E This bill will amend the Clean Car Standard in line with our Government\u2019s environmental commitments. Thanks to a user-pays model, it will save taxpayers money in what has been a prolonged cost of living crisis. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00225290de5f5a71460b87bff93b2ff50ab8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225290de5f5a71460b87bff93b2ff50ab8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker. Prior\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a02564a4cfe4308842c7abd0fba2a7b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Wait for a moment. I think it\u2019s just a really good idea just to cut down the conversations among members at such a loud level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a810e1f7ab3848c78f58e9d99ea2e3a7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Prior to the introduction of the clean vehicle standard, the Productivity Commission noted that New Zealand was one of three developed countries in the world without such a standard. One was Russia, one was Australia, and one was New Zealand. This was the group of countries that we were putting ourselves with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we can see, then, is New Zealand as a market\u2014and the Hon David Parker talked about this in his contribution\u2014was accepting cars with higher emissions than other parts of the world, because the market could see that this was a place that you could dump high-emitting vehicles that simply weren\u2019t allowed into other jurisdictions. For example, the top-selling new light vehicle models, the most efficient variants available in New Zealand have, on average, 21 percent higher emissions than comparable variants in the United Kingdom. The very real reason is that they have a robust regulatory regime around the standards of emissions of vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we have is a Government bringing legislation to this House to introduce under urgency and pass under urgency that wants to water down the standards that we as New Zealanders should expect in our vehicle fleet. There is no real cause that\u2019s spelt out in any of the documentation. In fact, I\u2019m going to go through some of that, and I note that the Minister, in his speech on this reading, didn\u2019t address what I think are some really real issues that he needs to address from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment that were released earlier this week in an open letter to the Minister, given that there is no select committee process and no process for expertise such as the commissioner to input into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere will be, as we go through this bill clause by clause in the committee stage, a number of questions that the Minister will need to address in regards to what the Parliamentary Commissioner is setting out. One of those that I think that this House deserves an explanation on is that we have a Minister that is bringing forward the ability of the Minister, by regulation, to change the standards outside of the statute by three years. This is significant in terms of our emissions targets. What the Parliamentary Commissioner is saying is that the legislation should contain some criteria and methodology that will inform the Minister\u2019s decisions around vehicle emissions standards whenever they exercise that regulation-making power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, it is not too much to ask, that a piece of legislation that allows the Minister to make decisions by regulation and brings that forward, that we should be able to see laid bare in the legislation how he is going to do this. What is the kind of criteria and what is going to guide that decision making? We haven\u2019t seen any of that in this legislation. Something the Minister will need to address is why not? Because one of the problems the Minister is going to have when he gets into the chair is contained in the documentation that has been on the Table with the bill, the departmental disclosure statement, which I think is a very interesting read on this piece of legislation. Did the regulatory impact analysis team in the Treasury provide an independent opinion of the quality of any of the regulatory impact statements? No, they didn\u2019t, because they\u2019ve been reviewed by a panel of representatives through the Ministry of Transport. It\u2019s been given a \u201Cpartially meets\u201D rating against the quality assurance criteria for the purpose of informing Cabinet decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo Cabinet did not have all the information it needed when it made the decision, and yet the Minister thinks that he knows so much he can bring it to the House without any scrutiny at select committee. It hasn\u2019t even had that. This from a Government that has set up a Ministry of Regulation and it is saying that they\u2019re going to lift the standards around decision making like that. So the Minister\u2019s going to have to explain to us why it is he is the world expert in this field that doesn\u2019t need his Cabinet colleagues to have that analysis when they\u2019re making decisions at the Cabinet table, and, certainly, we don\u2019t need it as parliamentarians when we\u2019re expected to pass laws in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThen, something else I found very interesting in the departmental disclosure statement: are the aspects of the policy to be given effect by this bill that were not addressed by or that now vary materially from the policy options analysed in these regulatory impact statements? Yes. So not only did he not get the kind of information he should have been taking to his Cabinet colleagues in the policy advice, but then he changed it after that as well. So, obviously, this Minister is a genius when it comes to these matters and we look forward to him answering these questions in the chair, because unlike anything we\u2019ve seen from this Minister before, I\u2019m looking forward to a session when he actually answers some questions and has some information at his fingertips and things that he hasn\u2019t just made up in his office before he\u2019s come down to the House and had to come back and correct days later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we see is that the cost recovery impact statement developed for this bill did not address the aspects of the bill relating to the modification of the Clean Car Standard\u2019s emissions targets. So, you know, why would you want a piece of legislation that is actually about how we are reducing our emissions? It\u2019s baked into the emissions reduction targets that his colleagues and he, as a Cabinet Minister, are going to have to report on in only a few short months\u2014didn\u2019t even consider it; didn\u2019t consider how changing the regulations around the standards in our vehicle fleet are going to impact on our targets. This is woeful lawmaking. This is lawmaking that makes absolutely no sense. It is lawmaking that is being made on the fly. It is lawmaking that is being made without advice. It is lawmaking that is being made that does not meet the standard of what New Zealanders should expect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Transport, the Minister\u2019s officials, had to give an exemption from the requirement to analyse that aspect of the bill, the aspect of the bill that was about the emissions targets. So, members opposite, you\u2019re quite happy to pass legislation that is just giving an exemption to thinking about reducing our climate emissions\u2014doesn\u2019t matter. It is time this Government actually just owned what it is. It is a Government that cut $3 billion worth of funding out of climate action in this year\u2019s Budget. It is a Government that has no plan when it comes to reducing our emissions. It is taking us backwards on every initiative that it was achieving against our emissions reductions plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe members of this Government are going to cost New Zealanders. We have two choices: we cut our emissions here at home and we keep jobs in New Zealand, we support New Zealand industries, and we back New Zealanders to have efficient cars to drive, or we go the way of, say, the Swiss, who are currently in the process of paying to put electric buses on the roads in Vietnam because they cannot meet their own emissions targets domestically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAs I said in my first reading speech, I make no apologies that my colleagues and I, every day of the week, will stand up and say that we will do everything to maximise our emissions reductions at home, to keep jobs in New Zealand, to keep highly skilled work in New Zealand, and to back New Zealanders, rather than thinking you can just trade your way out of this by going and buying expensive credits on the international market. What we\u2019re seeing in this departmental disclosure statement is this Government isn\u2019t even thinking about that.\u00A0They\u2019re not even considering it. It\u2019s not part of their decision-making framework. They do not care about the cost impost that they are putting on New Zealanders, which is in the order, by Treasury\u2019s estimates, of probably around $600 million a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThink about that. We have a Budget next year with a $2.4 billion operating allowance and Treasury\u2019s own analysis would suggest if we were to block that as a contingent liability, then it would be in the order of around $600 million. This is what this Government is going to cost us, and every day they bring nonsense legislation like this to the House that further erodes our own domestic reduction, they are costing New Zealanders more. Every dollar we have to spend overseas buying credits will not be spent on schools, will not be spent on hospitals and it will not be spent on New Zealanders\u2019 futures. That is what this Government is putting at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd497d3a60d74d3db4c8aa5f99de2bc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd497d3a60d74d3db4c8aa5f99de2bc2\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, Happy Matariki to you. To quote from the Broadway show Hamilton: \u201CTalk less, smile more.\u201D I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c912ae3863614d89b44857be3cc715ea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001468\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221583017450a34a1cb667047c9f54dd37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221583017450a34a1cb667047c9f54dd37\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for the consideration of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8bba3b7fd984128ab090fc7d9ae2fa8\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eed860277dfb4647935939e5bc5089cb\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c08f35efa52044e3aed4c84710d46bf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c08f35efa52044e3aed4c84710d46bf7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill. Members, we start with the\u00A0debate on clause 1. Clause 1 is the debate on \u201CTitle\u201D. The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9f4490fc4804be78f9deb6121b1b7cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9f4490fc4804be78f9deb6121b1b7cf\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This bill has seven clauses. This first clause is the title clause. The title clause states very clearly that \u201CThis Act is the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Act 2024.\u201D, and it has that name simply because it amends the standard in relation to the setting of it and in relation to it being user-pays, rather than a Crown-subsidised, scheme. It\u2019s very simple; what it says is what it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00223d280b2164964a1eb3fefc926b7d04b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d280b2164964a1eb3fefc926b7d04b1\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to seek some clarification from you as we embark upon this stage of the process. The Minister of Transport has made some introductory comments that purely relate to the title. I refer you to Speaker\u2019s ruling 127/1, which relates to basically the exact situation that the committee does find itself in, and you may be familiar\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b04ebed9bd2f46f08b4858cbc44f018e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve actually brought the clause with me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f2b4a300d944f369829ac1cf3c76f79\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Fantastic, you\u2019re very diligent as per usual\u2014we are on the same page. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8ba995692f149bf9907bbd2914eedf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8ba995692f149bf9907bbd2914eedf9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Speaker\u2019s ruling 127/1 basically says that \u201CMembers haven\u2019t had a chance to view the bill and haven\u2019t had much notice. There haven\u2019t been any public submissions, so therefore clause 1 will be a more fulsome debate around the bill, but I will still require members to address the bill that is in front of them.\u201D So in giving questions or speeches around the title\u2014that can go wider than the title but not wide-ranging into the other clauses too much. Just be careful that we don\u2019t debate the whole bill in the first clause, but it is more wide-ranging than just the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9d75bff2a674f88a1e70c44cab93491\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208793903291845afbd1929c3f9cfa12b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon David Parker. Is this a point of order or a speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022155c374135814182960d44e980548257\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t call a point of order, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214d662bdc5c14981baa0c99281656438\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so the member wants to speak. The Hon David Parker wants to speak on clause 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022591304f573df4f999e09446295f7a4cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022591304f573df4f999e09446295f7a4cb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank for that honour, Madam Chair. Well, my comments are, in particular, in relation to the title, but I do have to cross-reference the relevant clause 7 of the bill, amending section 175 of the Land Transport Act, which talks about \u201CTargets \u2026 reducing carbon dioxide emissions\u201D, because I want the Minister of Transport to clarify that, in fact, the changing of those targets for carbon dioxide emissions could actually, given the breadth of that power, make the standard less onerous\u2014i.e.,\u00A0vehicles would be less clean\u2014which calls into question as to why the name is the clean vehicle standard if it could be made dirtier, so my question is whether that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9536324ee3444d199a7feb5d1e6fff0\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I just wanted to come briefly to the comments made or raised by Mr Utikere in his point of order. I was just quickly seeking some clarification. As I understand, this bill was introduced during the Budget urgency session, so there has indeed been plenty of opportunity to consider it. It hasn\u2019t just been introduced to the House today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb1d31723f0248389483ed973fbb35ec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s true, Mr van de Molen, given that we\u2019ve had a period of time between that bill, but the Opposition have not had a chance to debate it at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eb80a93b98c4a5cb1f0888c99935655\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: But they have had a chance to view the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdf5887ee531484cba9fded3249d5ae5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they\u2019ve had a chance to view it, but it has not been and it will not be going to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de579257a7b34c35b7c186e47e5afacf\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014thank you\u2014since Mr van de Molen has raised that, Speaker\u2019s ruling 127/1\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbb228c0da8c4921807036da786fb6a8\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Well, she\u2019s already ruled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3ab01cd976b477f8c0d5ffd64ef9926\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Well, she had already ruled, but it didn\u2019t stop you from doing anything about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eb4e4a4d77a490e8aa4f59cce2b5938\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Move on with your point of order, Mr Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022422e77e5f1dc4b90a00bec60797b7dea\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, so I think what Mr van de Molen has done\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c97710c0434662aab7e337472f779f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll have points of order in silence, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe3625cf43b9457ca442c53da161acba\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the clarity. I didn\u2019t get a chance to respond to that. But I think what\u2019s important here is that, yes, the bill has been in the public arena, but the other components in that Speaker\u2019s ruling are also that there have not been any public submissions. And also this is a very unusual step in which this bill is being considered clause by clause as opposed to part by part\u2014and the House is in urgency. So it\u2019s not just the fact that the bill hasn\u2019t been able to be viewed, I take, by your interpretation and confirmation of that ruling, that there are many other aspects to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022339df3b19a43491399770fece0ac146d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. That\u2019s fine. The Hon David Parker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a63f97cbb2cf4756b7ea80463728c2e0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I will just briefly recap my question to the Minister: Could he confirm that the effect of this bill is to allow a change to the clean vehicle standard, which could in fact increase carbon dioxide emissions rather than decrease them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022353b3d885a7d4768b9d4b40ea2dd3abf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022353b3d885a7d4768b9d4b40ea2dd3abf\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E What this bill does is it does two simple things. One, it enables the standard to be set by regulation, and, secondly, it allows for a cost recovery of the cost of operating the standard. Those are the two simple things. Outside of this debate, there\u2019s been\u2014I think section 175A of the Land Transport Act requires that the Minister must undertake a review of the targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022103c98d97a45423eae5a0aeb8e98e113\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022103c98d97a45423eae5a0aeb8e98e113\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Further to my colleague the Hon David Parker\u2019s question and the Minister of Transport\u2019s answer there, I direct the Minister to the departmental disclosure statement where it said that \u201CThe CRIS developed for this bill did not address the aspects of the Bill relating to the modification of the Clean Car Standard\u2019s emission targets.\u201D So I think given that the regulatory impact work did not address the issues around the emissions targets, I think the question that my colleague put to the Minister has not been adequately answered to the satisfaction of the Opposition in terms of understanding where the Minister is coming from, given that that analysis has not been undertaken and the departmental disclosure statement states that. So I\u2019d like the Minister to state what evidence he is relying on\u2014given that there has not been that regulatory impact analysis done on the Clean Car Standard\u2019s emission targets\u2014that this will indeed fulfil the title of being a clean vehicle standard and not a dirty vehicle standard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022250e6fd7f64e4ef3a9208adb11f02314\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022250e6fd7f64e4ef3a9208adb11f02314\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E One, this bill doesn\u2019t repeal the clean vehicle standard; there will still be a clean vehicle standard. Secondly, this bill does not change the standard, and so there is no change to the standard by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002209dd226b741f4dacb7fff8c08ecb1b96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209dd226b741f4dacb7fff8c08ecb1b96\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge that the Minister of Transport is correct and it doesn\u2019t repeal the clean vehicle standard, but what this does is bring forward by three years the Minister\u2019s ability to change that by regulation. So given that he still hasn\u2019t answered the fact that there hasn\u2019t been the regulatory impact analysis done on the emissions target aspect of this, I\u2019d also like to know what evidence he\u2019s relying on that this will still be a clean car standard. But I\u2019m also interested to know what the Minister is going to say in terms of fulfilling the name of the bill on the tin\u2014the Clean Car Standard\u2014what the criteria for decision making around changing those regulations will be, and whether he will be putting that in the bill, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00222a15eecc8f91420a9965299279aa169e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a15eecc8f91420a9965299279aa169e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E If the member read the entirety of the principal Act, she would find in section 175A that the Minister must not initiate a review later than 30\u00A0June\u00A02024. In section 175A(2), it outlines the factors that the Minister must take into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022683491ef9da4471d9e8bb154b57bb8f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022683491ef9da4471d9e8bb154b57bb8f1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I ask the Minister of Transport how he responds then to the open letter from the Hon Simon Upton, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment (PCE), who, in the absence of being able to go through a select committee process, has very clearly written to the Minister\u2014the very clause that the Minister is saying makes it all OK, the Parliamentary Commissioner has got some questions around. So I\u2019d like to know the Minister\u2019s response to that; how it is going to fulfil being a clean car standard when the Parliamentary Commissioner\u2019s advice very clearly says\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1fe8a59405c4899a4241ecb7f782f19\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I detect in the member\u2019s question the same line of questioning that she has already pitched twice, the Minister has replied to\u00A0twice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d43c4b11363f4bacb010479111a831b6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s actually brought new material into this question. I think it\u2019s fine. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd1e36e871f840f796ec8329fa94460c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So the question I put there is the paragraph in the PCE\u2019s letter that said \u201CParliament clearly intended that any regulations, that are made to set targets, would be subject to review. To ensure this is carried through in your amendment bill, I suggest you make a minor amendment to the drafting of section 175A(a)\u201D\u2014which, of course, is the clause that the Minister referred to in his previous answer\u2014\u201Cso that the text that follows \u2018carbon dioxide emissions set out in section 175\u2019 is replaced with \u2018and not later than 30\u00A0June\u00A02025, for targets prescribed in any regulations under section 167C(1)(j)(iv)\u2019.\u201D What does the Minister say to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022aed77628a3a2419382ae5dee98db9268\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aed77628a3a2419382ae5dee98db9268\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I always enjoy receiving open letters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002240ee0ba55e1044c6a3a3fa2a32f0c481\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240ee0ba55e1044c6a3a3fa2a32f0c481\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a series of questions about both aspects that the bill brings in. One is: firstly, who has the Minister of Transport consulted with in deciding to bring this bill to the House under urgency? What specific organisations has the Minister consulted with before bringing this bill, under all stages, in urgency, to the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe second question is: how can this bill be increasing certainty when it\u2019s removing targets that have been publicly available to the industry and to all of New Zealand for several years, and replacing it with none? What process is the Minister intending to use on consultation on any new standards he might be putting in for the years 2025, 2026, and 2027 before those are brought in through regulation? I\u2019ll carry on with more questions after I get those answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022242544ffb6fa42e48ac99c7e2920002b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022242544ffb6fa42e48ac99c7e2920002b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi Utikere, thank you for your patience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022715d37924e5743feb4fa0c5d011746cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022715d37924e5743feb4fa0c5d011746cd\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you\u2014thank you for your diligence, Madam Chair. Clause 1\u2014I have a number of Amendment Papers that have been\u00A0tabled in advance, so the Minister of Transport has had an opportunity to, hopefully, look at those. They all suggest specific changes to clause 1, and I think that\u2019s important because the title, in effect, reflects what is contained elsewhere in the bill. So I am interested in the Minister\u2019s responses to those, the first of which is Amendment Paper 42\u2014they\u2019re\u00A0actually 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, and 47; they all relate to clause 1\u2014and whether the Minister is comfortable with some of those suggested amendments or whether he might have another few on that. I also think that it would be helpful\u2014I don\u2019t know if you want me to pause or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256a03a2e9bca479fa6cb57e00d18e4b1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yep\u2014carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022289aff4893784556b51b998deb261845\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know whether the Minister wants to elucidate on his response to the Hon Dr Megan Woods. I mean, the Minister might enjoy receiving open letters, but I think it\u2019s highly unusual that, effectively, an Officer of Parliament has bevvied into this process and has taken the effort to point out what seems to be a very straightforward suggestion. I think it is only proper that the Minister might wish to have the opportunity to reflect on that and to perhaps provide a response to the letter, given that he is an Officer of Parliament. Perhaps I\u2019ll leave it there and come back with some other questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00222ecd05c529a941b5b1d2647ab99b4917\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ecd05c529a941b5b1d2647ab99b4917\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E A simple question for the Minister of Transport. It relates to one of my suggested amendments for this bill, about the title. We\u2019ve had some back and forth in this House about whether the cost recovery mechanisms in this bill, alongside the ability of the Minister to set a standard which would, essentially, require the industry to change its behaviour in terms of what cars it imports\u2014whether that would be seen as a tax. So there are amendments in my name that propose to the Minister that he should include \u201CBudget Measures\u201D in the title of the bill, which is the tradition in the way that this Parliament delineates its cost recovery or its revenue-gathering legislation which often accompanies Budget legislation and is the type of legislation which is usually introduced around Budget time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBecause this is part of their Government\u2019s broader Budget urgency motion, it would also not be unusual for the legislation to include this in the title. And what I\u2019m asking the Minister here is: is he interested in including \u201CBudget Measures\u201D in the title because he does see this as a revenue-gathering tool, or not? It would be useful for him to clarify, because some of his own members of his own party in their calls have been confused about whether this is a revenue-gathering instrument or whether it is not intended to gather revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002286ed0a30c30e45e2bdac1480725821bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286ed0a30c30e45e2bdac1480725821bb\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I thank the member for her question. This is a bill which I think the title is very clear in relation to what it does. In terms of the issue of cost recovery, it is a bill which has a cost recovery mechanism included in it, and, as a result of that cost recovery, it means that the general taxpayer won\u2019t be required to pay for the operation of this scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228e137c6236c140a09a2e22179d7cea29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e137c6236c140a09a2e22179d7cea29\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of clause 1 and the title of this bill, I recognise, as we\u2019ve also heard from my colleagues, that there are some concerns around whether the title itself gives enough clarity on the purpose of this bill. I think one of the things is in one of my tabled amendments for this as well, because this particular bill looks like two components. The first one is looking at enabling the target to be set in secondary regulation, which then ties into what previously the Hon Dr Megan Woods mentioned in terms of the clean vehicle standard element of it. But, again, what we are hearing is that there is a second component to it in terms of the cost recovery scheme. So, again, we are in support of the amendment that has been put forward by both Tangi Utikere as well as Arena Williams around this because of the fact that there is clarity that is needed with regards to the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of my amendment, in order to address both elements of this bill, I wondered if the Minister of Transport is open to the suggestion of amending it from \u201C(Clean Vehicle Standard)\u201D to \u201C(Clean Vehicle Standard and Levy Charges)\u201D. Now, I know that the term \u201Clevy\u201D potentially is controversial, but based on the intention of this cost recovery we are looking at\u2014and this is, again, something that maybe the Minister is happy to clarify. When we are looking at these cost recovery measures, are we looking at a potential levy? Because I know the term \u201Ctax\u201D has been thrown around, but is this more akin to a levy? If it is more akin to a levy, would the inclusion of \u201Clevy charges\u201D be something that is worth mentioning within the title to cover both elements of this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00227233f5b6ea144d12b3e3f0e24597856c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227233f5b6ea144d12b3e3f0e24597856c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I think the answer to that question is that those matters are dealt with inside the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022956e894364214d5299e05e6dad539939\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022956e894364214d5299e05e6dad539939\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve followed this with great interest\u2014as most Kiwis should. The departmental disclosure statement says in here, \u201CThis is critical to ensure that any changes to targets can be made quickly to increase certainty for the vehicle industry.\u201D So a question to the Minister of Transport is: is he planning to make changes to this on a regular or semi-regular basis to clean vehicle standards? Because in a meeting I had with a senior executive from one of the biggest international car firms, her concerns were that New Zealand was able to change the standards, thereby offering uncertainty to companies like that, which actually made them less enthusiastic about even looking at our market. So the question to him is that given the statement here implies changes can be made quickly, how often is he going to make them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002264e23d65e6a2463ea1a80c13d3b80173\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264e23d65e6a2463ea1a80c13d3b80173\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the Land Transport (Clean Vehicles) Amendment Act that the last Government put in place allows for the standard after 2027 to be changed by a regulation. We are simply allowing for the standard in the years up to 2027 to also be able to be made by a regulation and making it consistent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc8479ae59594ee2b3ff32a7044b9671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc8479ae59594ee2b3ff32a7044b9671\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I appreciate the clarification by the Minister of Transport because, as I said, in my meetings, the issue of concern around change was one made by the motor industry and the fact that we\u2019re such a small market. So if the Minister\u2019s now implying that change will be made before 2027, then that offers more uncertainty. And so can he confirm that or, otherwise, whether he intends to make a change prior to 2027?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00228935ffddd1bf42858f0f53e2a8f36722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228935ffddd1bf42858f0f53e2a8f36722\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E This is a bill which simply makes a change to allow the standard to be amended by regulation, just as it can be after 2027. It\u2019s just simply about consistency. So it\u2019s a very simple piece of legislation. And also, the Land Transport Act requires the Minister to undertake a review and commence that review before 30\u00A0June\u00A02024. So in order for that to be able to happen, if there is to be any change, there also needs to be the ability for that to be changed by regulation. So that is why this bill is before the House. It\u2019s a very simple piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022814f9f2092d6474ebcf771bb40310ac2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022814f9f2092d6474ebcf771bb40310ac2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. And I appreciate the Minister of Transport\u2019s attempt to clarify, but he completely avoids the question that I ask, and that is: is there an intention by Government? Because what we see in other areas of secondary legislation and in regulation is that the Government has implied economic concerns will override environmental concerns or animal welfare concerns, as the Associate Minister of Agriculture has implied with the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee. So my question is: is the Minister going to use the powers that this new bill will allow him to change before 2027, and, if so, for what reasons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffbd03448ae54b20bdc556a68ae640d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffbd03448ae54b20bdc556a68ae640d5\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The Land Transport Act requires a review. The review must take into account the matters, including in section 175A. Those are the matters that I will take into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d385667803884b5db948805f3c0ae380\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d385667803884b5db948805f3c0ae380\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019m going to call Hon Julie Anne Genter. Some of the questioning is moving a little away from clause\u00A01 and may be able to be pursued further down. So let\u2019s\u2014if we stick to the broad title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022847f1e0450de48b98a0f75f433279783\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022847f1e0450de48b98a0f75f433279783\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I actually stood up just based on the conversation that the Minister of Transport was having right now. So am I able to continue questioning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276795454fa884589a7cc29ad3f09d782\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Given that we\u2019ve started the conversation, I\u2019ll let you have a question on that, but I\u2019ll make it the last one, given you\u2019re already on your feet\u2014the last one for now until we get down into that part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225627c614cd1e4742870971f206d6b185\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to ask the Minister: with the changes, which are brought in under this legislation, to the ability to change the standards for 2025, 2026, 2027, is it then possible for the Government and for the Minister to put in, through regulation, standards that are more ambitious than what was set out in the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5d10c2ca1a7469883bf081ad9c4b281\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5d10c2ca1a7469883bf081ad9c4b281\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The legislation allows the Minister to make and set those standards and those standards could be above or below. But, ultimately, under the legislation that\u2019s being proposed, just as it is, after 2027, up to the Minister by Order in Council to set it then, it is the same under this particular piece of legislation for those years preceding that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00221c27482e0ad848d98b4443cc22127bda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c27482e0ad848d98b4443cc22127bda\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. One of the things that I\u2019m still waiting for an answer from the Minister of Transport, that he hasn\u2019t addressed in relation to us, as a House, is understanding whether this bill does what the title purports that it does, in terms of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill. I am still waiting to hear the Minister give some kind of meaningful reply to the suggestions that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has made, who is an Officer of Parliament and I think deserves the respect of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn particular, the piece that I\u2019m interested in\u2014now, the Minister tells us this is a very simple piece of legislation. What I\u2019m seeing is a Minister struggling to understand this very simple piece of legislation. What I\u2019m wanting to know is exactly what the Parliamentary Commissioner has set out, that \u201CParliament clearly intended that any regulations, that are made to set targets, would be subject to review. To ensure this is carried through in your amendment bill, I suggest you make [these] minor amendment[s]\u201D to the very clause that the Minister is saying is the way that he can ensure that the Clean Car Standard is going to be maintained and therefore fulfils what is on the name at the front of this bill\u2014the Minister needs to address this. He cannot just dismiss, in a committee of the whole House, in a bill going through urgency, some very real and meaningful questions from an Officer of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220b81f67630f74f4db3059ddcd7aec134\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b81f67630f74f4db3059ddcd7aec134\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E As I have said before, this bill amends the legislation which legislates the clean vehicle standard. It is not removing the clean vehicle standard and so therefore it is the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1c0fa4e543841408ca1fd6e6882dfab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1c0fa4e543841408ca1fd6e6882dfab\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m still waiting to hear a response from the Minister of Transport in relation to my suggested amendments to clause 1\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed12b8f7997f4cd986aaddea676fb5c1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022023cef91643a4d21af6d72479a0a34c2\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the members opposite might say \u201CNo.\u201D, but in fairness, these are clauses that have actually been put on an Amendment Paper. They have been made available earlier in the week, so this has not just been tabled late; they were tabled, basically, three weeks ago when the House was sitting. So I wonder then, given the Minister hasn\u2019t given a response around those, if perhaps I do need to go in some detail as to what each of them actually identifies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI did note that they were on Amendment Papers 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, and 47, and I was prepared to give\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237fccaae116c4708a9e33299fcca3d32\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: So sequential!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db4dab2a73544d018f2e6a3883d284a8\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: They are. I was prepared to give the Minister an opportunity to just come back and say \u201CActually, no, I don\u2019t agree with them\u201D or not, but he hasn\u2019t done that. So I will, I think, have to go through each of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s turn our minds to Amendment Paper 42, clause 1. Now, I actually think this is very similar to what my colleague Arena Williams had said, and, actually, I would be very comfortable if the Minister preferred Ms Williams\u2019 amendment over mine\u2014I\u2019m OK with that. But we do need to hear from him around that. He should tell us; he should be very clear around it. It seeks to insert, after \u201C(Clean Vehicle Standard\u201D, \u201Cand Budget Measures\u201D. Ms Williams has articulated the very view that often when it comes to bills that are introduced to the House in urgency as part of the Budget urgency motion, this is a common approach, and so I\u2019d be interested to hear from the Minister on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMoving now to Amendment Paper 43, this seeks to \u201CIn clause 1, after \u2018(Clean Vehicle Standard\u2019 \u2026 insert \u2018and Targets for Reducing Carbon Dioxide Emissions\u2019.\u201D So we hear a lot around the label being what is on the tin. I\u2019d be interested whether the Minister thinks that that would be an appropriate description for that, given that he hasn\u2019t had an opportunity to respond to that. The next one is on Amendment Paper 44.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1b347c345d74e0cbc769676c9dc08d6\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b479521b6e04ac7893c43954348e3db\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: This is after\u2014well, again, the members opposite might not like it, but maybe that\u2019s the view, and they\u2019re speaking for the Minister, but we have not heard from the Minister yet. This is \u201Cafter \u2018(Clean Vehicle Standard\u2019 \u2026 insert \u2018and Regulations Relating to Cost Recovery\u2019.\u201D Now, the Minister may actually be supportive of that and thinking about it, because he himself has said that it does relate to cost recovery and it was perhaps a suggestion from himself. So I\u2019m happy, actually, if the Minister wanted to\u00A0take that Amendment Paper as one of his own Amendment Papers\u2014I\u2019m very happy for that. We\u2019re happy to do the work. He can have it. He can take it. He can have it in his\u00A0name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMoving on to Amendment Paper 45. It is in relation to replacing \u201C(Clean Vehicle Standard)\u201D with \u201C(Transport Budget Measures)\u201D, so this is no reference to \u201C(Clean Vehicle Standard)\u201D. And, actually, given that we haven\u2019t had justification as to what that means or what it might look like, that might be an appropriate title for the Minister to consider. But yet he hasn\u2019t replied to that, so we\u2019ll wait and see whether that is in his purview or not. On to Amendment Paper 46\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7313e56160455eb02401a0737922e6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d17ae1dfcc4026981c8c6dd27b20fd\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think someone over there said that was good, so clearly they\u2019ve read it. It\u2019s \u201Cclause 1, replace \u2018(Clean Vehicle Standard)\u2019 \u2026 with \u2018(Reducing Carbon Dioxide Emissions)\u2019.\u201D And so that might be something that the Minister might be interested in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThen, finally, I think\u2014and I do apologise to the committee, but I feel as though I\u2019ve had to do that, given the Minister has not given a response\u2014is Amendment Paper 47, and this is \u201CIn clause 1, replace \u2018(Clean Vehicle Standard)\u2019 \u2026 with \u2018(Cost Recovery of Clean Vehicle Standard)\u2019.\u201D Actually, that\u2019s probably more in line with the Minister\u2019s thinking, so he may want to take that. I think we are still waiting to hear from the Minister about his views on those, and it might be that he agrees with some of them or none of them or all of them. That\u2019s fine. But at the moment we have not heard from the Minister as to what his view is, so I do hope that he will take up the opportunity to do that, and I look forward to a response from him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00228746b0c1236e4449a7e9c9dc2f33dd07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228746b0c1236e4449a7e9c9dc2f33dd07\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise to the member for not sharing my views more clearly and loudly, but I will do so: Amendment Paper 42, no; Amendment Paper 43, no; Amendment Paper 44, no; Amendment Paper 45, no; Amendment Paper 46, no; and Amendment Paper 47, no. The bill is very clear as to what the bill is, and it is the \u201CLand Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022976c3da4f6db4bcb996ee7fb64864918\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022976c3da4f6db4bcb996ee7fb64864918\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The committee of the whole House will resume at 9 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024062508886b9cff2944df91b5b423a7e8a384001549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 11.59 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022404841d2997c478591a619b2f5b51466\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 JUNE 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6dff64934e140398debfa125511bd1c\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 27 June 2024)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c0f8425fa8c4688a788288e4971e920\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f1fa4782b1b4952be46ecc28a71d2bd\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d5cd51487a04901a71682a419b82bff\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b22eb852b2374c499a015065f6c4bc31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b22eb852b2374c499a015065f6c4bc31\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. The committee last night, when we left the Chamber, was discussing the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill, and the debate was on clause 1, which is \u201CTitle\u201D. We traversed a reasonable level of discussion around title, and we also got some clarification from the Minister of Transport about some of the Amendment Papers, that he said he would not be changing the title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ENow, I know that Speaker\u2019s ruling 127/1 is relatively broad ranging; however, I think we\u2019ve been broad ranging around the title. So if anyone wants to take a call on title, I\u2019m going to be very strict on title, and then I\u2019ll be listening very carefully to make sure it relates and then we can traverse the other parts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00221487a7ca15d146d9b30c347ff5993995\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221487a7ca15d146d9b30c347ff5993995\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, good morning, Madam Chair. It\u2019s great to see you in the Chair given you were there at midnight, when we left off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ELook, I firstly want to thank the Minister for his response at the late hour last night\u2014going through each of those suggestions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef3a4e1da2214565b017474639cc9312\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Very happy to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e60d16614374c249adc803d5bf5783a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Very happy to do that\u2014it\u2019s unfortunate he didn\u2019t do it earlier, because then I wouldn\u2019t have had to go through that list but appreciate that got the answer in the end there. Still not quite clear\u2014perhaps with the benefit of some sleep overnight, the Minister may have thought about that Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2019s response, and we\u2019ll work with that. But I\u2019m satisfied with the responses around my Amendment Papers. This\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ff853fac1a40d2859061528e78cdb1\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: No, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227149c88770224715a801d7a47d3b30e8\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Other members may not be, but I take the point around the broad nature but it being specific. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere is one point that I do want to raise because I think this is important. The information that has been made available, and had been tabled, that we\u2019ve been able to access and have a look at\u2014I draw the Minister\u2019s attention to what is the regulatory impact analysis, and if we turn to page 6, there are two points that I want to tease out with the Minister, and I\u2019m doing it at this early stage because it does set the tone for what might follow. One is in relation to the availability of appropriate information before the committee so that we are able to consider things appropriately. Now, when we\u2019re looking at the table that\u2019s referred to as \u201CTable 2\u201D, just above it, there is effectively what says \u201CError! Reference source not found\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259756dab93034d31baf291ce9b53b8aa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: I found that; I had that highlighted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dab27061a7943cead06ed5a9993f587\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you, Dr Woods. I think it\u2019s actually really important. This is a Budget-sensitive document, as is indicated. It has effectively referred to levels of information that relate to the average of 3,000 vehicles that are imported and the potential cost recovery that\u2019s associated with that. Now we\u2019ll come to that later in clause\u00A05, I think it is. But this is a fundamental issue in terms of where this information comes from and the basis on which this document has been provided to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister, and he may need to seek advice around this, is what specific reference is being able to be provided there? Because if there wasn\u2019t anything, then OK, fine. But the fact is that there clearly is a reference that basically looks as though it\u2019s just not there or it has been redacted, which would be very unusual\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd1db387f75846bcafba543b45ab556d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Or removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7b060b8338545e8b4eb4a9438d0fcbe\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Or\u2014yes\u2014or may actually exist somewhere else. So that\u2019s the first one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe second one is at the top of that page; it talks about the calculation rates. And this is important because my colleague Miss Williams and I both have Amendment Papers that relate to Budget measures. And so this talks about the calculation being in depth via consultation with the sector and with Waka Kotahi. So my two questions are: what is the reference, if he\u2019s able to provide that? And the second one is still around the consultation, which we have yet to hear from the Minister around, so that the title of this bill is adequate based on the very limited consultation that he\u2019s had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00227e2cc363e43b49b2a265ab43247e74f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e2cc363e43b49b2a265ab43247e74f9\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just circling back to where we were last night, the Minister in his really fulsome and helpful answers to my colleague Tangi Utikere indicated his clear direction that this bill is a bill about the targets that relate to cost recovery within the system. So I want to speak to two of my amendments only, in clause 1, because he has given a really\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b95988c5d77c4da7a2b9c582fc59c5f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the others later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1d98588625d46b7b9657ea30631348f\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Hon Megan Woods is saying \u201CI\u2019ll come back to the others later.\u201D But I hear your direction, Madam Chair; I\u2019m not going to go through every amendment, but I just want to talk about two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe first is on that cost recovery point. As I\u2019ve heard various speeches around the Chamber, there is still confusion about whether this measure is a taxation measure: is it a behavioural change measure, or is it a cost recovery measure? We\u2019ve heard from the Minister, though, in his answers to Tangi Utikere, that it is a cost recovery measure. In which case, Minister, I have an amendment for you that will help this committee to be clear on what is being done here by this bill. So my proposal is to delete the words \u201CClean Vehicle Standard\u201D and replace them with \u201CRegulations Relating to Cost Recovery of the Clean Vehicle Standard\u201D. That will make this much clearer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second amendment that I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister on whether he would support, from me\u2014it is different to the one put forward by Tangi Utikere\u2014is whether he will accept a deletion of the words \u201CClean Vehicle Standard\u201D and replace them with \u201CTargets for Reducing Carbon Dioxide Emissions\u201D. This is a different point, Madam Chair. The reason why this would be different to what the Minister has said is he stood here and he said, in answer to a question from the Hon Megan Woods at about 11.45 last night, that there would still be a clean vehicle standard even if he were to change the standards in such a way in the schedules that they would be less onerous on the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re trying to gather here is: is the Minister committing to a clean vehicle standard which does further reduce the carbon dioxide? In which case, we would love that; we would be really keen on that. So we want the Minister to commit to that change by making a change to the name of the Act, which makes it really clear that he is intent on reaching New Zealand\u2019s carbon goals on an international stage, that he will do his role as the Minister of Transport, and that he will commit to making sure that his portfolio, and the sectors that he is responsible for, is contributing its part to Simon Watts\u2019 responsibility to deliver on New Zealand\u2019s climate goals. So he should rename his Act \u201CTargets for Reducing Carbon Dioxide Emissions\u201D. I look forward to his answer on my two questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00224735a2be619e4022b3f0bc75ceef77fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224735a2be619e4022b3f0bc75ceef77fd\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just noticed that the Minister might be taking a moment to consider the questions that have been asked about consultation, asked both by the Hon Julie Anne Genter last night and then was reminded again this morning by Tangi Utikere, and of course, the letter from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, asked by the Hon Dr Megan Woods last night. Still no answers to those questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen just this last very good point made by my colleague Arena Williams about what the title means, as her first point. I agree with her second point about reducing emissions. Of course that would be a great thing to say, but there\u2019s some irony to be speaking here about an Act that now enables the Minister to make regulations when, of course, we were here in December last year arguing about an Act that already enabled the Minister to change things\u2014the Clean Car Discount that was\u2014by regulations, but for some reason we needed to do that by primary legislation back in December. And here we are, when we do actually need to do something by primary legislation to enable changes to the making of secondary legislation. So I would be keen on the answer to Arena Williams\u2019 amendment about removing \u201CClean Vehicle Standard\u201D and saying \u201CChanging Regulatory Powers\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, I heard the Minister say in one of his first responses last night that what the bill is about is user-pays not Crown-subsidised\u2014those were his words as I recorded them. So would the Minister also consider that as an amendment, so that it is \u201CThis Act is the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standards Enabling User-pays and Not Crown Subsidies) Amendment Bill.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebacd520948a4d9daf3150b8cfc4247b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebacd520948a4d9daf3150b8cfc4247b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for their questions. I think we\u2019ve traversed many of these subjects already, including all of the tabled amendments that have been put on the Table. I made it very clear the Government\u2019s view is that the title of this bill is the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill, as it amends the legislation in regard to the clean vehicle standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221b0f96a4860241fba665a778926e942a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b0f96a4860241fba665a778926e942a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290c02821d7e647b0944e3226f01be78e\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair. Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9d243e79bd46e083811ecbc73e5c29\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve started voting\u2014no, there were no calls, I\u2019d started voting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d20c3a0489864002b049b747553c1666\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d20c3a0489864002b049b747553c1666\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 1 set out on Amendment Paper 42 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b2fc4c5633b4fa9b2a4fa32f4857af1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002233802c57b0324d71a44e7d5e6a7ea486\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233802c57b0324d71a44e7d5e6a7ea486\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 1 set out on Amendment Paper 43 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022527c95b4e6b842fe816d1b2e76d3d3f3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228188abc61d674672852affb032220c43\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 1 set out on 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225013bb79aa4144babd1d4479020b35e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225013bb79aa4144babd1d4479020b35e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Amendment Paper \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002294ffdb967b3748caa8827087d6e8e9e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294ffdb967b3748caa8827087d6e8e9e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 1 set out on Amendment Paper 45 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227be62c5f527043ac871c3380cb625ec9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002211dcc613ce4149d895894813f269a193\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211dcc613ce4149d895894813f269a193\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 1 set out on Amendment Paper 46 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223d5bdceeee9342e99ac351b5c653a95d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227a2b5d336c664027b1ad2ab4a3d61ef3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a2b5d336c664027b1ad2ab4a3d61ef3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 1 set out on Amendment Paper 47 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226b79285a57654d3e8a9d45e0d7e45bf8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b62f8131b24446d49fe25ee0e40fb253\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b62f8131b24446d49fe25ee0e40fb253\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause\u00A01 to change the title to include \u201C: Budget Measures\u201D is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed, which was Amendment Paper\u00A042.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 to change the title to include \u201C: Targets for Reducing Carbon Dioxide Emissions\u201D is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed, Amendment Paper 43.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 to change the title to include \u201C:\u00A0Regulations Relating to Cost Recovery\u201D is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed, Amendment Paper 44.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 to change the title to replace \u201CClean Vehicle Standard\u201D with \u201CBudget Measures\u201D is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed, Amendment Paper 45.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 to change the title to replace \u201CClean Vehicle Standard\u201D with \u201CTargets for Reducing Carbon Dioxide Emissions\u201D is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed, Amendment Paper 46.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 to change the title to replace \u201CClean Vehicle Standard\u201D with \u201CRegulations Relating to Cost Recovery\u201D is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed, Amendment Paper 47.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 to replace \u201CClean Vehicle Standard\u201D with \u201C167BB\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002293d89aca07014830acb8896220673b85\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002202719bdd20964eff91607ae47fbeb6f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202719bdd20964eff91607ae47fbeb6f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 to replace \u201CClean Vehicle Standard\u201D with \u201C167BB and 167C\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002266fc5ada7bb041609a2dc27a8b84b5e5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225b23bbf5445340c0a2583fda6dcd0000\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b23bbf5445340c0a2583fda6dcd0000\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 to replace \u201C(Clean Vehicle Standard)\u201D with \u201C(Clean Vehicle Standard and Levy Charges)\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fee7a9953c5948e1a18fffa7307472cd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022273e1f4c8b8f4e3cba18f14b533a8290\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022273e1f4c8b8f4e3cba18f14b533a8290\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause\u00A01 to replace \u201C2024\u201D with \u201C2025\u201D is out of order as not being in the proper form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f002413405054edba2505790f4b047b9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227363f8d4858b4febb165b65928bed7da\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227ea662fce06a4f1f96d9c88899c8a8c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ea662fce06a4f1f96d9c88899c8a8c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on clause 2. Clause 2 is related to the commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9c39eaa268f42d0a6af257e5156f4d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9c39eaa268f42d0a6af257e5156f4d1\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just had a point of order relating to prior to the vote, and I\u2019ve just waited until after\u00A0the vote because, obviously, not wanting to interrupt the vote, and it\u2019s the first available opportunity to raise this point of order. Madam Chair, when you decided to not take a final call from Tangi Utikere, you said that it was because the vote had begun. I\u2019m not questioning your ability to decide when to take a vote\u2014which I think is well understood to be at your absolute discretion\u2014but my point of order is that if you refer to Speakers\u2019 ruling 80/4, there is complete discretion that the Chairperson has in relation to being able to take a call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c38d1dfbf9344bb93ee37dd79f4c3ed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, and I did use that discretion. There was no one on their feet when I started to take that vote, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b18e255e9ad43ebb0ea356944eb35b6\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you, Madam Chair; I just wanted to clarify for the committee that it was\u2014because it appeared to us that you were saying that you were unable to take that call even though Mr Utikere was on his feet when you were taking that vote. So that\u2019s my point of order, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c19bb3dcd52f493f931828d66783488c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c19bb3dcd52f493f931828d66783488c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I did use my discretion, and I was about three or four words into the vote when Mr Utikere stood to take a call. OK, clause 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00223d202f8c2e4b4937ab1f7aad88ab2b25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d202f8c2e4b4937ab1f7aad88ab2b25\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Clause 2 is the commencement: \u201C(1) This Act comes into force on 1 July 2024. (2) However, section\u00A05 comes into force on 1 July 2025.\u201D Section 5 is the clauses in relation to cost recovery, and that allows for time for the cost recovery mechanism to be determined and for consultation with the sector in regard to how that cost recovery will be undertaken and for that to then be put in place from 1 July 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2c58100f2e74b5b9c1c760352a99315\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2c58100f2e74b5b9c1c760352a99315\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m happy to take a call on clause 2 of this bill, which is the commencement clause. Now, there are some pieces of legislation where the commencement clause is more material than others, and this is one of those pieces of legislation, because what this amendment in the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill is doing is bringing forward the dates on which the Minister can make changes to the substance of the Act by regulation, rather than it being prescribed in the legislation. So, as the original legislation stands, those emission standards for 2025, 2026, and 2027 are prescribed in the Act, but the amendment we have and the commencement clause is pulling all of that forward so that the Minister can set those by regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I\u2019m keen to understand from the Minister is in terms of how the phasing and the dates are going to work, because, of course, under the original Act, where we had it prescribed in the legislation, the ratcheting of the emissions targets was embedded within the principal legislation. Now that that is moving to having the Minister being able to change that by regulation, will he also be putting in that ratcheting of the emissions targets? I think that it is absolutely critical that we understand that in terms of the way in which the dates work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other question I have for the Minister is this. Of course, dates matter when it comes to this stuff because what we have is a series of pieces of legislation that are around reducing our emissions and how we reduce our emissions. These correspond to emissions budgets and emissions reduction plans (ERPs). Emissions reduction plan 1, I imagine, won\u2019t be impacted at all by any changes here, but, certainly, there is the potential for emissions reduction plan 2 and emissions reduction plan 3 to be impacted by any changes; by regulation coming forward\u2014as the commencement clause is allowing it to do\u2014and having an impact on what the transport emissions targets look like within ERP 2 and ERP 3. I\u2019d like to know from the Minister what, in terms of tonnes of carbon dioxide, the impact could possibly be, and what he will be doing to mitigate that in terms of making sure of the phasing in terms of the commencement of the legislation, and the timing of those emissions reduction plans and how they sit together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I think the committee would be keen to hear from the Minister on, in terms of the commencement date of this legislation, of course, is that we have had some suggestions for amendments from the parliamentary commissioner which actually are around changing dates. Obviously, everything in this bill is really around the amendments that will be made to section 175A of the principal legislation, but the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, in his letter to the Minister that was sent this week\u2014as there was no opportunity for there to be submissions at select committee, the parliamentary commissioner had set out for the Minister some suggestions, which we really have yet to hear the Minister respond to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI reiterate that this is an Officer of Parliament who is offering advice to the Minister. I think it is disrespectful of this House for the Minister to not respond in a substantive way to substantive suggestions that have been made by an Officer of Parliament on a piece of legislation that is going through under urgency. So I think that it is simply untenable for the Minister to continue to not respond to these sensible suggestions. He doesn\u2019t have to agree with them; obviously, that is his prerogative\u2014he is the Minister. But what is untenable is that we have a Minister who is either unwilling or unable to respond to the complexity of the suggestions that have been made by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. There are many, but the one I\u2019d draw the Minister\u2019s attention to as we\u2019re debating the commencement clause is the one around shifting the dates. He\u2019s made that one in terms of what could be replaced under \u201Cnot later than June 2025\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere are three quite detailed and specific questions I\u2019ve set out for the Minister in regard to commencement, and I look forward to hearing some substance from the Minister on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00228b49ddeeefd3471684e92dc21749d1b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b49ddeeefd3471684e92dc21749d1b1\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the questions. This is in relation to the commencement of the legislation. The member is asking questions which are more in relation to the review. The Act requires a review to be taken, and that review is under way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2019s letter: effectively, those questions also relate to the review and the certainty. This Government is committed to a clean-car standard, and that is a point we have made consistently. We are undertaking a review of it in line with what the legislation requires. The Act prescribes the matters that must be considered. But those are all questions for the review; they\u2019re not questions which relate to the bill and the clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis clause is simply to do with the commencement of the bill, which will start on 1\u00A0July, and in relation to the cost recovery, from 1 July 2025. That is what this clause is about. Those questions are relating to wider policy considerations which are being dealt with through an appropriate process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0a3d4e4967f450ab60288abf809d5dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0a3d4e4967f450ab60288abf809d5dd\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I acknowledge the Minister\u2019s response there but, with respect, I think that he is incorrect in relation to his most recent contribution around what the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment is seeking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ELast night, it was known to the committee that this open letter had been sent to the Minister. I have to say that, just after midnight last night, I received an email that sought some confirmation as to where this letter was, and I was happy to pass that on. The letter itself actually does identify a number of points. We note that, as an Officer of Parliament\u2014one of three\u2014the Rt Hon Simon Upton has, I think the word I used was, bevvied him into this particular process, which it seems extraordinary that an Officer of Parliament would, effectively, send something to a Government Minister, without a request to do so. He has done so, one assumes, because there is no select committee process. The commissioner himself in his letter here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022696a5f093b6a4984b6e2a5faee6d4d67\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: What date did he suggest to commence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a6d3370dab46f2bb28910ebc903255\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014says that he understands that it would be\u2014what was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dccb39439c043bf8e8abbe9f006d779\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: What date did he suggest to commence the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834b2a4eb1244704a5b1ba06bf068202\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: What date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220253242f082d4074a823c3e85f67b045\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: For the commencement, what date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5d6d47dd6bb4b8196989b4b3e242639\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. So in the letter, I don\u2019t know if Mr Meager has read the letter or not, for the benefit of those\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a54c6ee976704589a81d3111ccaa66a1\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: No, you didn\u2019t email it to me, you\u2019re rude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fc719033fa047fa93e9c1f48c570d52\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he emails you? He emailed it to you, did he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dabb756e3fd843dd9d81d8f50683c683\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: No, you didn\u2019t email it to me. You\u2019re very rude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a583feb98ee48cdbfc62e437e721bcf\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I didn\u2019t. Well, I\u2019ll tell you what: you obviously haven\u2019t read\u00A0it. So I\u2019m very happy to email it to Mr Meager. Perhaps a colleague could send that to Mr Meager.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f39c88a90db496f80f3ac3a8daa0832\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Read it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229719ce5b1b4243a3856a230dcf7c35bc\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, I think that\u2019s probably appropriate. Mr Meager opposite has asked questions, Madam Chair. I\u2019m responding to the questions that he has asked. As a result, I feel as though I need to read the letter out. That is in direct response to requests that have been made by members opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e00dc8df2e74499b377b711392ed4f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The member could also request that the document be tabled so that\u2014but that is up to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276a05f97f3f14fd1a2aead8e70ef0881\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. I understand that this is an open letter and it is publicly available. It\u2019s to Simeon Brown, Minister of Transport, dated 24 June 2024:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u201CDear Minister, I note that on 30 May, you introduced the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill. I understand that this bill could be passed under urgency in the coming weeks, thereby precluding the opportunity for comment through the normal process of having bills scrutinised by a select committee. Given that possibility, I am taking the liberty of providing some feedback.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u201CThe amendment bill changes the date specified in the regulation-making power under section 167C(1)(j)(iv) to bring forward by three years the ability of the Minister to prescribe the targets by way of regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u201CIt will also cancel the currently legislated ratchet of emission standards for 2025, 2026, and 2027, anticipating that these will be instead set by regulations. Emission standards will have an important impact in helping New Zealand meet its statutory emissions reduction targets. How much of a role they should have is a political choice. That is not a debate I wish to enter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u201CHowever, policy certainly is crucial in ensuring an orderly transition for our economy. Given this, I would urge you to reflect on\u201D\u2014in italics\u2014\u201Chow any changes to emissions standards are made and what precedent the process for making them may hold for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u201COnce these amendments come into force, it is important that any changes to the targets made by regulation are prescribed on the basis of a robust, evidence-based, and transparent process. Section 175A of the Land Transport Act already acknowledges this in the requirement for targets set in both the Act and regulations to be provided. Section 175A also sets out the matters that the review must take into account. Parliament clearly intended that any regulations that are made to set targets would be subject to review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u201CTo ensure this is carried through in your amendment bill, I suggest you make a minor amendment to the drafting of Section 175(a) so that the text that follows\u2014carbon dioxide emissions set out in section 175\u2014is replaced with \u2018and not later than 30 June 2025 for targets prescribed in any regulations section 167C(1)(j)(iv).\u2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u201CAlternatively, you could spell out in the legislation the criteria and methodology that will inform the Minister\u2019s decisions around setting vehicle emission standards whenever they exercise the regulation-making power. An amendment of this nature could leverage the drafting of section 175A as the criteria to be applied to those directions. I appreciate that this drafting approach would be more complex than simply requiring a review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u201CSuch a change would help ensure the public can have confidence in the standard set, regardless of what the\u201D\u2014Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ae2fc615339477d9ed3b32ead9abb81\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022922f86a3e98d48dcb8c26e5a479f3944\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: There was interruption, I\u2019m going to let the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229091c8b60ded467ca5931537c4145b36\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll start that paragraph\u2014it\u2019s the final one\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022050afdddc7b949599b464e16ff0fecb2\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Start it again! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd94d8d744244013835c0221d1710ed3\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I won\u2019t start the whole letter again. It\u2019s the final paragraph.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b62d07da69e64dbd83ba1983bce096ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, don\u2019t start the whole letter again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c37ec2e826c48e289c3d27be9e117db\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CSuch a change would help ensure the public can have confidence in the standard set, regardless of what the political mix of the Government is that sets them. I would be happy to discuss the issue with you at greater length. Yours sincerely, the Parliamentary Commissioner.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo, for the benefit largely of Mr Meager, on the record now is the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, an Officer of Parliament\u2019s letter. So I now invite the Minister, perhaps in a fulsome response, to reflect on the letter and provide an opportunity to address the Hon Dr Megan Woods\u2019 question around this, particularly around how the changes might be made and how that relates to the commencement date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI have a number of Amendment Papers in relation to clause 2. They are numbers 42, 43, 44, 45, and 46. I invite the Minister to respond to those\u2014I mean, hopefully, he will respond to those. I think the commencement is obviously pretty important, but the question that I also have for the Minister is: is he satisfied that the date that is currently in the legislation is a date that will allow a smooth transition in terms of the process, and, if not, which of the alternative dates that have been identified in those Amendment Papers that are in my name\u2014and I know that there are members who have other Amendment Papers who may wish to speak to theirs\u2014might be an alternative?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002234cace9789c649da9d267fe1a9d4e6b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234cace9789c649da9d267fe1a9d4e6b8\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport): \u003C/span\u003EWell, I thank the member for his reading comprehension skills. What I would say is that the issues raised in the letter by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment would be best discussed in clause 7 because they relate to section 175 of the Act, which is being amended by clause 7. This clause, clause 2, simply amends the commencement of this bill, which is proposed to be 1 July 2024 and, except for clause 5, which will come into effect from 1 July. So whilst that\u2019s very interesting what the member is raising in relation to that letter\u2014and we can debate that in clause 7\u2014the issue here is around the commencement of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI just note and I\u2019ll take the liberty of discussing the amendments that the member has put forward. He suggested changing the date to 31 July 2024. We don\u2019t agree with that.\u00A0The advice is that if the bill passes this week, there\u2019s no need to change the 1 July 2024 date. \u201CIn clause 2(1), replace \u20181 July 2024\u2019 \u2026 with \u20182 October 2024\u2019.\u201D, we don\u2019t agree with that. It\u2019s inconsistent with Government policy. \u201CIn clause 2(1), replace \u20181 July 2024\u2019 \u2026 with \u20182\u00A0October 2025\u2019.\u201D is also inconsistent with Government policy. Amendment Paper 45 is also inconsistent with Government policy, which is for the intended cost recovery to come in earlier. And Amendment Paper 45, \u201Creplace \u20181 July 2025 \u2026 with \u20181 July 2026\u2019.\u201D is also inconsistent with Government policy. So we will not be supporting any of those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022800d9da4a4ca4f0f8f6049ed391cde50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022800d9da4a4ca4f0f8f6049ed391cde50\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question about clause 2 is about the fact that clause 5 of the bill doesn\u2019t come into force until 1 July 2025. I wondered why the Minister didn\u2019t consider having at least a short select committee period to consider the provisions around setting up the cost recovery scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI note that in this bill\u2014obviously, with urgency he\u2019s trying to change the ability for Government to change the standards for 2025, 2026, 2027; you know, next week. That will come into force so that the Government will be able to just completely change the standards that have been set out for several years and introduce a lot of uncertainty, because they could be higher or lower, as the Minister said last night. But given that the cost recovery scheme hasn\u2019t yet been designed, that it\u2019s not clear what the preferred option is for the design of that and how it will be done, why didn\u2019t the Minister consider having at least a short select committee period so that the public and people affected could have a proper parliamentary oversight of that provision, given that it\u2019s not going to come into force for a year anyway. We could have taken that part to select committee with a specific provision for the design of the scheme and could have had fulsome submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s unclear to me why any of this is being done, because it\u2019s actually just introducing a lot of uncertainty rather than the certainty that the Government claims it\u2019s about. But given that the cost recovery scheme isn\u2019t going to come into force for at least a year, why aren\u2019t we seeing specific proposals and having that referred to us, at least a shortened select committee, if not a full select committee process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00223135e51dd6d54c1db04101d9c345c089\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223135e51dd6d54c1db04101d9c345c089\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E This is an enabling clause. In terms of clause 5, in terms of when it comes into the force, it enables and there\u2019s time between now and when it comes into force for that scheme, in terms of cost recovery, to be considered, developed, and appropriate consultation with the impacted parties to take place during that time period. So we have no intention to change the time periods in this particular clause, clause 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022820c636a11ba41ce8d7c580f9e5e35d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022820c636a11ba41ce8d7c580f9e5e35d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call Arena Williams. Given that the Minister has just offered to have further debate on questions in further clauses down the line, we will keep this very strictly to \u201CCommencement\u201D, from here on in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00225b1dd7c0f38540f69943d942c3411d06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b1dd7c0f38540f69943d942c3411d06\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I\u2019m seeking to ask the Minister a series of questions in the way provided for in Speakers\u2019 ruling 79/4, which offers and back a forth if they are brief. My first question to the Minister is: is the cost recovery system that will be enabled by this bill ready to go now? If the system is not ready to go now, when will it be ready to go? I ask that question because it\u2019s relevant to the date when it will commence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022949fd4118c3c47138469e8434860d361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022949fd4118c3c47138469e8434860d361\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, as I said in the previous answer, this is an enabling provision, and so that is why those issues can be debated in clause 5, but this simply is about the commencement of it. Clause 5 deals with the provision around those enabling provisions, and I suggest that\u2019s the best place to ask those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022437bc8be325e4738b13f30acac837697\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022437bc8be325e4738b13f30acac837697\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Arena Williams\u2014if it\u2019s not about clause\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022a318413761c84dea971b06dc398d759c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a318413761c84dea971b06dc398d759c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I understand the Minister has answered that it is an enabling provision. It\u2019s relevant to the date it comes into force, though, because if that cost recovery system is ready to go now, then we could move that date forward, and surely that would be something that the Minister would be interested in. That\u2019s why I\u2019m asking. Further to that question but a different system, is the system that the Ministry of Transport has built to enforce the clean vehicle standard ready to go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00227ab4279d4b2c408a9e4abf60db4f98b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ab4279d4b2c408a9e4abf60db4f98b6\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224ca1877df8c148e68d9ca61398b39030\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d81eaeaf63024f6fa1374988f2a6c261\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 2(1) set out in Amendment Paper 42 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223a48c760f7454cf68aa316220937a544\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a48c760f7454cf68aa316220937a544\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab9473f46b33445fb1432875a9c8ba1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab9473f46b33445fb1432875a9c8ba1e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 2(1) set out in Amendment Paper 43 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022968d28f42b294fd1a1f55afd85f4c955\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agree to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022004d25af3d264325ba275120786aeda6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 2(1) set out on Amendment Paper 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022357280f3e8bd45438256cb83c84a7125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022357280f3e8bd45438256cb83c84a7125\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4a6d1fa4d764cdfbcfb59a4d73930e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4a6d1fa4d764cdfbcfb59a4d73930e3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clause\u00A02 to replace \u201C1 July 2024\u201D with \u201C31 July 2024\u201D, \u201C1 October 2024\u201D, or \u201C1 October 2025\u201D are out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed\u2014Amendment Papers 42, 43, and 44.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 2(2) set out on Amendment Paper 45 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224c525353ba0b45eda7069a11aa77f191\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c04892495c2344b5a3a7274752df8915\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c04892495c2344b5a3a7274752df8915\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 2(2) set out on Amendment Paper 46 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002273256df100f647838c12426aa59c4ec6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002240b43026a0964d4699370b1f31100206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240b43026a0964d4699370b1f31100206\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clause\u00A02 to replace \u201C1 July 2025\u201D with either \u201C1 July 2026\u201D or \u201C1 July 2027\u201D are out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed\u2014Amendment Papers 45 and 46. The question is that clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022941000ad6d164e86b92bc781aeb9c41e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000119\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022909cae7d0551488cb3c40efe9295a14c\u0022\u003EClause 3  Principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce423f53640146a98f07b16416ced394\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce423f53640146a98f07b16416ced394\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on clause 3, \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022ada17721c95f4d3e953420c821c9160b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ada17721c95f4d3e953420c821c9160b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This clause is a very simple clause. It states that this Act amends the Land Transport Act 1998. That is exactly what this bill does\u2014it amends the Land Transport Act 1998. Now, I note there are a couple of tabled amendments which seek to add any Orders in Council made by the Governor-General, which make regulations under the Land Transport Act. Effectively, if this Act does make any other changes, those flow through anyway, so there\u2019s no need to actually have that stated within it. There\u2019s also an amendment to add and regulatory mechanisms secondary legislation made under the Land Transport Act 1998. It seems like a very long principal Act. It\u2019s called \u201Cprincipal Act\u201D, so, by adding other things, it is unnecessary and is not how lawmaking is made, and, so, that is actually complicit within the Land Transport Act, in terms of what that does. So there\u2019s no need for any of those amendments to be approved, and we won\u2019t be supporting them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5cbc00170c343b283c5a36388b88fb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5cbc00170c343b283c5a36388b88fb9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The purpose of this part of the Land Transport Act is expressed in section 170 of the Land Transport Act and it says, \u201CThe purpose \u2026 is to achieve a rapid reduction in carbon dioxide emissions from light vehicles imported into New Zealand\u201D. It\u2019s, effectively, trying to improve the efficiency of the vehicle fleet. The main agency that has been responsible for improving efficiency in things that are energy inefficient for a long, long time in New Zealand has been the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority. So my question to the Minister is, and I want to explain why this is relevant, whether he gave any consideration to actually\u2014rather than doing this as an amendment to the Land Transport Act\u2014putting this within the purview of the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority under their legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, the reasons for that, which I would be interested to hear whether the Minister considered, include the fact that that authority has been very, very effective at improving the efficiency of appliances that we buy every day. And we\u2019re not aware of the background rules that drive the improved efficiency of those categories of energy-using devices because it happens behind the scenes, and they do an extremely good job of balancing this interest between the drive for efficiency and cost. One of the issues that I know the Government will be concerned about\u2014as was the prior Government\u2014is the trade-off between efficiency and cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority have managed to carry the improved efficiency of, you know, ranges, dishwashers, air conditioning devices, heat pumps, dryers, fridges\u2014most of the things that are used by people in their normal lives that use energy now have efficiency standards that are regularly updated. We do a lot of it with Australia, and it\u2019s done through the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, and they have great systems and those systems have got public confidence. They, behind the scenes, will be identifying what technological choices are out there from the providers of these appliances, which are not generally made in New Zealand; they\u2019re made overseas, which is also the case for motor vehicles. Behind the scenes, they are ensuring that they\u2019re not driving the price of these appliances too high, whilst they\u2019re also maximising, within reason, the energy efficiency that can be obtained by driving those standards higher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn those appliances as well, as there are in cars, there are more efficient options and there are less efficient options. And it\u2019s in New Zealand\u2019s interests that we get the more efficient ones into our country so that we use less electricity, less energy, and have less environmental effect from energy production, because, as we know, any form of energy production has some form of environmental effect. So I would encourage the Minister to give consideration to whether this\u2014which really is the expertise that sits in the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority\u2014is the same skillset that is needed to set these standards properly. I suspect if we did it, there would be less public controversy around the standards that he\u2019s going to have to set under this, because the public have confidence in the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority. So my question is: has he given any consideration to the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy second reason for doing that, and he could address this, is, presumably, given that the regulatory impact statement tabled with this bill shows that there was not much consideration of what the effect of this was on costs. The Hon Dr Megan Woods highlighted that in a second reading speech yesterday. Presumably, he has some idea as to how this trade-off between cost and efficiency is going to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00227311ca9e64514a0fbb3ba0490d7d369f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227311ca9e64514a0fbb3ba0490d7d369f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I appreciate the member\u2019s question, but this clause is very clearly around amending the legislation which the standard already exists within. Those decisions were made by the previous Government when the Act was first passed. We are making two targeted amendments to that legislation, and so the bill therefore has to amend the legislation to enable those changes. That Act is the Land Transport Act 1998 which is being amended, and that\u2019s why this bill mentions that Act in this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00221bb034fcfaa44dc9b58b4f3b59ef8318\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bb034fcfaa44dc9b58b4f3b59ef8318\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E The expert in legislative design is here\u2014he\u2019s here! And you can see where I\u2019m taking my lessons from, because my contribution to this debate is similar to the Hon David Parker\u2019s, which pointed out that not only are the amendments that the Minister is proposing inconsistent with the purpose of the Land Transport Act and that it would better sit in the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Act; I would also point to the role of the Commerce Act here being a better place for these amendments to sit. Because the Minister is trying to do something different to what the previous Government was trying to do with the Clean Car Standard, and therefore it would better sit in legislation which actually gives effect to that purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe members opposite are interested in this provision, so I will quote from the Standing Orders here\u2014it\u2019s 310, at page 89, at subsection (1) of that part\u2014where the \u201Ccommittee of the whole House considers a bill to determine whether the bill properly incorporates the principles or objects of the [principal Act]\u201D. That is the debate we\u2019re having in this part. This is the only part in which we can do that. So we\u2019ve heard from David Parker that the section that\u2019s relevant for the purpose considerations is 170 of the Land Transport Act. That is really clear that the purpose of that Act is to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide emitted by the vehicle fleet. This amendment that the Minister has proposed today is not consistent with that part. So it should not be a part of the Land Transport Act. It should be a part of another Act. So whether it\u2019s the energy Act is one consideration that this House should make, and I hope the Minister will give us a more fulsome answer on the role of the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Act in providing us with guidance about the standards for energy efficiency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut as Labour\u2019s commerce and consumer affairs spokesperson, my interest here is in the kind of legislative framework that we are creating for consumers of clean vehicles. And I would suggest that the Minister is actually regulating a market here in exactly the way that the Commerce Act does. He\u2019s providing consumers with a user-pays model that incentivises industry behaviour in another way. In other words, he is creating a framework that regulates an industry that would not act in this way, but he\u2019s giving them a really clear market signal\u2014and a market mechanism, at that\u2014to deal with consumers in a different way and to provide them with different choices. His own regulatory impact statement points to the fact that consumers are the main beneficiary of the clean vehicle standard. That\u2019s not something I agree with, because I would say that New Zealanders as a whole benefit from the reduction of emissions over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s clear that if he doesn\u2019t intend to reduce emissions at the same rate that the previous Government would, then the main benefit is to consumer choice, and is to the kind of vehicles that are being offered to consumers in a larger array of vehicles. That is something which is clearly the domain of the Commerce Commission, and the Commerce Commission should be empowered to also make sure that that regulatory mechanism is working in favour of consumers and is helping them to engage with the industry to have a wider range of choice. The Commerce Commission should also be able to consider whether those industry players, and especially the larger sector players who have a bigger share of the market who will be most impacted by this amendment that the Minister is putting forward, like Toyota, are being regulated in the appropriate way. That is why clause 3 of this amendment bill should actually read\u2014sorry, I\u2019ll just find it\u2014\u201CThis Act amends the Commerce Act 1986.\u201D Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d98666e17e984ef78d9f1d40180d5216\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d98666e17e984ef78d9f1d40180d5216\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve already stated to the committee, this bill is making, effectively, two changes to the clean vehicle standard, and those are in relation to what we\u2019ve already debated in relation to the enablement of regulations rather than prescription of legislation and cost recovery. Those choices in terms of where this policy should sit were made by the previous Government, and they decided to put it within the Land Transport Act. We are now making two targeted amendments, and so therefore the appropriate Act to amend is the Act in which the clean vehicle standard sits. So that is what this bill is doing. It\u2019s a very clear clause, and that is stated in clause 3, and we\u2019re not proposing any changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00229f934e9e0732480c9983194db94ebeb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f934e9e0732480c9983194db94ebeb2\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, good morning; thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister for eagerly addressing the two amendments that are in my name on Amendment Papers 42 and 43. I thought they were all right amendments actually, but he has said that he\u2019s not intending to support those. I understand that\u2019s his position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI did have a question, actually that I was thinking through, around the interface that some components of this might have with the Land Transport Management Act of 2003. But actually I do want to just thank the former Attorney-General, the Hon David Parker, because Mr Parker has actually, I think, identified\u2014and it\u2019s not something that I immediately turned my mind to\u2014something that I think actually is entirely appropriate when we\u2019re considering clause 3. I did hear my colleague Miss Williams sort of reference that the Minister\u2019s approach in this is a change from what is the current situation in law, and the policy goal or outcome or objective, therefore, potentially, is different. And so when we\u2019re looking at what the appropriate principal Act is for it to be amended, that naturally needs to come into play.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat Mr Parker has identified is if we consider what some of the potential change might be with many of these aspects, is it actually appropriate that the Land Transport Act is the appropriate principal piece of legislation, or is it something more in the energy realm? And Mr Parker, actually\u2014thank you for drawing a distinction there, because the other examples that have been cited around household items are very similar. You know, we\u2019ve already in this debate, as this bill has progressed, talked about the various nature of cars and household use and all those sorts of things. So my question to the Minister is whether or not the nature of the item\u2014in this case, a vehicle\u2014is to be considered as part of that wider suite, and therefore it is purely more of an energy efficiency consideration, and therefore energy. Whether it\u2019s a consumer-related Act or whether it\u2019s an energy efficiency Act, that is important. The reduction of carbon dioxide levels, which the Minister has cited and Mr Parker has cited as well, we will get to that; that\u2019s more specifically related to clauses 5 and 7, around those measures. But my question to the Minister is: does he not consider that the efficiency aspects\u2014that these regulations, if they do come into force in terms of the timeliness of them, are better placed in the efficiency or consumer space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002250ceff0bc36a4e069183b57b064da0b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250ceff0bc36a4e069183b57b064da0b4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E That question has already been asked by a prior member and I\u2019ve already answered it. Our bill means the Act that the last Government put in place, which determined that the clean vehicle standard should fit within the Land Transport Act. We are amending that Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6888d46db484e13bc69723c1464463a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6888d46db484e13bc69723c1464463a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister still hasn\u2019t addressed the fundamental question, though. The effect of the Government\u2019s policy has been to do away with the Clean Car Discount\u2014the rebate system that was being run\u2014and rely now on an efficiency standard. The expertise in respect of efficiency standards should not be re-created in a different department like the Ministry of Transport when we already have it in the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve already read out what was the relevant purpose clause in the energy conservation authority Act, and we should remember, of course, that this was originally designed by the late Hon Jeanette Fitzsimons, a former member of the Greens, who brought to this House the idea that we needed to focus on efficiency. She promoted the idea that we do this in a way that is cost-effective. She knew that when you drilled into these issues and ran a proper cost-benefit analysis, you can actually drive efficiencies that reduce people\u2019s cost of living, reduce the cost to the country, and reduce environmental adverse effects, and it really is a win in every way in which you look at it. We\u2019ve got deep expertise in respect of those issues in the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2d295186de748a69b1558c47eb7f557\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddeba93ce99d4a8c9e21ae5f628be80a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to point out why the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251295157d27541d2a87daf533bda4a52\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e8268dd12d442f3b1c994adcb36b4d4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister just gets up and he says, \u201CWell, it says this because it is amending the Land Transport Act.\u201D The point that we\u2019re making is that it shouldn\u2019t be. It should be amending the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Act to make that the principal Act that these sections sit within. In support of that argument, I asked the Minister whether he\u2019s considered section 21 of the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Act, which shows what the functions of the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority are, and they include duties to assist the Minister to prepare and administer a strategy, such as this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a334cdb0f604bccaea1475b0d70ceb3\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294f1c4ecb52840e7b3799a78b7a70a8f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is actually about clause 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e81ef23f83374e5fa1d2d7c4a54670ef\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: No it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f96c17c7d9f34e5592e18395b9eaedb1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a bit sad that the members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226092a1513e654efabaffa476cd9bab71\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Cheer up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022312b9258171a4fd8be226909069f29fc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Fair enough. I am a happy fellow. I\u2019ll cheer up. Matariki tomorrow\u2014good time to be celebrating things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESection 21(1)(d) of the Act says that the functions of the authority include promoting practices and technologies to further energy efficiency, energy conservation, and the use of renewable energy. That\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re trying to do with the vehicle fleet, and I\u2019m a bit surprised that having dumped the Clean Car Discount\u2014which wouldn\u2019t have been something that the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority had within their existing ambit\u2014why you can\u2019t just flick this across to the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority and get them to do this work, relying on their deep expertise and experience that they\u2019ve shown over the years. Other functions listed in the Act include arranging for the conduct of research, assessments, demonstrations, reviewing the state of efficiency, publishing relevant information, promoting practices and technologies to further energy efficiency. This is exactly what we want to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s a bit of a culture war going on in New Zealand at the moment in respect of utes in the farming sector. It\u2019s an issue we do actually need to overcome. I trust the energy efficiency authority\u2014I think most people in New Zealand do\u2014and it would be good if we could come together on these issues rather than find these issues divisive within society, because it doesn\u2019t need to be divisive. So, again, I would ask the Minister to stand and justify why this shouldn\u2019t sit within the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority rather than sit as a very similar service delivery employing more people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested as to whether any cost analysis was done as to whether that would save money. I suspect that would save money, so if the Minister could rise to his feet and tell us how much money is being spent on these initiatives within the transport department\u2014because that\u2019s relevant I would have thought as to whether you could see whether that was likely to be more cost-effectively done within the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority. Because I would hope that the Minister, as he tries to minimise the cost of\u2014I know that these costs now, if they\u2019re pushed up, the Minister\u2019s got the ability to cost-recover them under this legislation, but I would have hoped that he wants to minimise those costs that are recovered even if he believes in their recovery. So I\u2019d be interested as to what the costs are within that ministry and whether any comparison was made as to how that could be more cost-effectively done by adding this function to the very similar functions that the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority already has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00220d900f755c014124823ca5f9747ca763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d900f755c014124823ca5f9747ca763\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. To put the counterfactual to the Hon David Parker\u2019s arguments, and this could have been teased out at a select committee process\u2014we could have heard from the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority (EECA) about how they play their role within industries; who they take a regulatory role with. If it\u2019s not the role of EECA to consider the role of industry players in the car sector in the way that they self-regulate currently their standards for cars that they bring in, then isn\u2019t it not useful to have protections for consumers of those cars? So if the Minister is trying to change the way that the clean vehicle standards works, not for a policy goal of reducing emissions and of improving energy efficiency across New Zealand\u2019s various sectors, but if he does have a different policy goal and that is to empower consumers to have more choice in the vehicle market, then isn\u2019t that the role of the Commerce Commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENeither of those policy goals, which the Minister may have here\u2014I think he\u2019s being a bit clearer that he has the first one, which is about an energy efficiency clean vehicle standard. But neither of those policy goals are met by the purpose of section 170 of the Land Transport Act being amended with this clean vehicle standard that he is proposing. Because it\u2019s relevant for us in committee stage, when we haven\u2019t had a select committee to consider, particularly under Standing Order 310, which I alluded to earlier, the purpose of the principal Act. The principal Act doesn\u2019t have a purpose of protecting consumers and it doesn\u2019t have a purpose of setting an efficiency standard across all sectors. Its purpose is really clear; it\u2019s to reduce carbon dioxide emissions across the vehicle fleet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis amendment could do entirely the opposite of that. It\u2019s possible that this amendment\u2014and my colleague Camilla Belich has more to say about this. But it\u2019s quite possible that the Minister\u2019s amendment would introduce a dirty vehicle standard, because this House will have no oversight over that. It\u2019s not being done in primary legislation; it\u2019s being done via Orders in Council. So if it\u2019s the policy position of the Minister to in fact create a dirty vehicle standard, then that would completely fly in the face of the purpose of the Land Transport Act, which he is seeking to amend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s fine. That\u2019s a choice that\u2019s available to this Minister. It\u2019s a choice that he will be answerable to voters for. We will not be able to scrutinise that on this side of the House. But it\u2019s not fine to put that in an Act which has an explicit purpose of reducing the carbon dioxide emissions. That would fly in the face of our legislative design principles. It would fly in the face of proper lawmaking. It\u2019s not OK for the Minister to just say that because there was a clean vehicle standard in the Land Transport Act before, he\u2019s sort of powerless to change that. There was a clean vehicle standard which reduced carbon dioxide emissions\u2014that\u2019s the point. So I want the Minister to stand and tell us, well, should he be deleting the clean vehicle standard entirely and creating some kind of other energy measure or some kind of other consumer protection? Why are we in the Land Transport Act at all if his policy goal is not to reduce carbon dioxide emissions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00221c5a158ace3d4ab7b3b76d7c20f005ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c5a158ace3d4ab7b3b76d7c20f005ee\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022868bfeb3c9ad47428f810cae546838f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022868bfeb3c9ad47428f810cae546838f3\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on this, because I don\u2019t believe we have heard answers from the Minister of Transport. The purpose of the committee stage is for us to be able to, as Opposition members, or members from around the House, actually get answers from the Minister, and this question has been put to him: how is the principle of the legislation\u2014and you have to go to the Land Transport Act to find the principle\u2014consistent with the bill that he has put in front of the House? One of the key purposes of a committee stage is to look at the bill in front of us\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a22846b35a8046339d925e9a7c12f52a\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddd0202fa65a4c1b943a888472f7cc47\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and to see how well the particular\u2014this is actually a really good point, thank you, Mr Meager. The point that Mr Meager was making is that we\u2019re actually looking at clause 3, the \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D, and that clause 3 says that it amends the Land Transport Act. When we look to Standing Orders and we wonder, you know, what is the purpose of the committee stage, we look to the Standing Orders and we see Standing Order 310 and we see that, in 310(1), the purpose of the committee of the whole House stage is \u201Cto determine [if] the bill properly incorporates the principles or objects of the bill as read a second time by the House.\u201D Now, the question before the committee is: does this bill properly incorporate the principles and objects of the Act? This is the only time we can talk about this, because this is where the principles of the Act are outlined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister could have put a different purpose in this bill. He could\u2019ve put a more substantive purpose in this amendment bill; that would be totally within his ambit. He\u2019s chosen not to do that\u2014he\u2019s chosen not to do that\u2014and the reason we know that is because it\u2019s not in front of us. So the only thing we have to do is to go back to the original principal Act, which is the only time we can talk about this, in clause 3; look at the Land Transport Act; look at the relevant part\u2014we know that we\u2019re amending Part 13. When we look at Part 13, we see that the object is \u201Cto achieve a rapid reduction in carbon dioxide\u201D\u2014not just a reduction; a rapid reduction, and when we look at this piece of legislation, do we see a rapid reduction? No; we see possible increases in carbon emissions. That is inconsistent with the object of the principle of this Act. It is a question before the committee that the Minister has not answered. I saw him looking at his phone\u2014I hope he was looking at this section. I hope he was researching how he can answer, as the Minister responsible for this bill, how there is consistency with the principle of the primary principal Act that we\u2019re discussing in the amendment bill that he is putting through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe response that we have heard to date is that the last Government amended the Land Transport Act 1998, so he too, while amending the Land Transport Act, has also chosen that particular piece of legislation. Now, that logic doesn\u2019t follow. It doesn\u2019t follow, because there is a duty under the Standing Orders to make sure that the amendments are consistent. The question put by members of the Opposition is: how is it consistent? We haven\u2019t heard an answer to that yet. I know that there is a desire to have a back and forth and to have engagement, and I think it would actually be a disservice to this committee to take a closure motion and move on to another part where we cannot discuss the principal purposes of this Act without having a response from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I ask again, Minister: how is the bill that you have put in front of the House consistent\u00A0with the aims and objectives as in the principal Act, the Land Transport Act 1998, as outlined in section 170 of the principal Act? How is that consistent? Please don\u2019t say it\u2019s because the last Government did it, because we already know that that logic doesn\u2019t stack up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae404e14ba1b4fc08a14a7e1f8561ab4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae404e14ba1b4fc08a14a7e1f8561ab4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I have already answered the question in relation to the reason we\u2019re amending the Land Transport Act 1998. It is because the last Government chose to put the clean vehicle standard into the Land Transport Act. This Government is committed to a clean vehicle standard. We\u2019ve already debated that as part of clause 1, which had a wider debate on the bill. This particular clause is incredibly narrow and this simply enables the amendment to this Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae0fbd802e6549699bd531a84c43d081\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae0fbd802e6549699bd531a84c43d081\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank the Minister of Transport for that answer but he still hasn\u2019t addressed this fundamental issue that I had asked, which is whether consideration was given to whether this could be done more cost effectively through the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority (EECA) and whether\u2014given that the Ministry of Transport now has no Clean Car Discount to administer, the ministry\u2019s just left with the efficiency standard\u2014that could be more cost effectively done through EECA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve heard the Minister in the chair say on a number of occasions that there are two purposes of this amendment Act, one is to impose a cost recovery mechanism and the other is unrelated to this point. But in respect of the cost recovery issue, if those costs are now to be recovered, surely, and there is no\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daff70144f554ba090ba71679d162119\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 5!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16b6f7b06664b70bb91d56f39a41dd3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Well, the operative clause as to where that cost recovery comes in is there, but the question as to whether that is best done through the Land Transport Act or putting these functions across to the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority actually rises in this clause 3. We know from the cost recovery impact statement that this issue is not addressed here. So I\u2019m interested to know whether any consideration was given by the Minister or his ministry, and indeed whether he had any advice from the Ministry of Transport, as to whether this could be cost effectively done through EECA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve gone through previously why that so logically sits within their purview, and I just need an answer from the Minister as to whether he did receive any advice on this point from the ministry, because if he didn\u2019t, I think he needs to admit that to the committee. He can admit that to the committee and then I can\u2019t rattle on about this any longer because the Minister will then have addressed the question. But the Minister at the moment has not informed the committee as to whether any consideration has been given as to whether this could be done more cost effectively through EECA, given they are the agency charged with energy efficiency more broadly across the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00225a47836988f04e2ba3ac22ef95f9c99c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a47836988f04e2ba3ac22ef95f9c99c\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a98d7736eb0f43eb928b02033a2ef243\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a98d7736eb0f43eb928b02033a2ef243\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We have now covered quite a bit of material. I\u2019ll take a call from Mr Utikere, but we\u2019ll be looking for some pretty new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00226ab4adf51b8044cebd053187072a7072\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ab4adf51b8044cebd053187072a7072\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Kia orana, good morning to you. Look, I am surprised on two fronts. One is that members opposite are seeking closure motions when many of these issues\u2014well, there are at least two issues that have not been addressed or answered and I\u2019ll touch on both of them. But the second is the Minister of Transport has said that this is a very narrow clause, and he is probably quite right around that, but even though it is narrow, there is still an expectation that Ministers in the chair will address the issues that have been raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy colleague Mr Parker has raised some around any advice that has been sought, the basis on which I think would actually be very important for the Minister to provide a response to the committee around that, because on this side we are still trying to understand why it is that it\u2019s the Land Transport Act that is sought to be amended without any consideration for any of the other ones. Now, if we were in a process where we had a select committee process, we would have actually had an opportunity as a select committee to perhaps seek that advice ourselves directly from the Ministry of Transport, perhaps invite the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority to provide some response around that. What the Minister is saying is that we don\u2019t have that opportunity and therefore the House is none the wiser. This is an opportunity for the Minister to say, \u201CWell, no. Actually, there was no advice sought.\u201D, or \u201CI didn\u2019t ask for any.\u201D, or \u201CIt did come back and it was suggested that this was the appropriate measure or way to proceed.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat the Minister is instead saying is, \u201CWell, we\u2019re going to amend the principal Act as the Land Transport Act because the former Government had it this way.\u201D What is different with this is that the whole policy proposal and the potential objectives are very different from what the former Government had and what is currently in legislation. What I say to the Minister is: since when did former Governments seem to bind future or current Governments around actions that they could take? That\u2019s something that he has not considered or addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re looking at what the purpose of this particular bill is, it is around\u2014well,\u00A0actually when we look at section 170 of the principal Act, as my colleague Miss Belich has said, it is around, effectively, the rapid reduction of emissions. Now, there is no certainty in this bill that there will actually be a rapid reduction of emissions, because the proposal is that this would be given over by way of regulation. So the Minister still has not provided to the committee a response, particularly around\u2014not just the advice, whether it was received or not\u2014whether or not there is actually any other avenue to address some of the other issues that have been concerned, and I invite the Minister to provide an answer around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002294fb68d59956496e8f27d69e7a5be4cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294fb68d59956496e8f27d69e7a5be4cd\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I really appreciate the opportunity to raise with the Minister, now, some new points around my amendments. He has told the committee that he is not willing to accept my amendments. These are amendments that, despite the heckling from the other side of the Chamber, we have not had an opportunity to consider in this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy amendments\u2014the Minister has said they are not necessary, but I need some explanation about why that is, because I want to understand whether the impact of his decisions put forward in the proposed amendments from him would in fact change regulatory decisions or decisions made under secondary legislation empowered by the primary legislation that are already in place. I want to know the impact of his future decisions under the regulatory-making powers in his amendments on previous regulation, because what we\u2019ve got here is potentially a situation where regulations which were made under a previous Government\u2019s regulation-making powers, which were different in the primary Act, will now be amended by his regulatory-making powers, which he proposes to give himself in this primary Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a difficult situation. It\u2019s not open to scrutiny in any other way, because that\u2019s not something that the Regulations Review Committee would be able to consider, because that\u2019s the interaction of two pieces of secondary legislation which were made under a different primary Act. I think that the amendments, here, that I have proposed limit the Government\u2019s risk and limit the ability of people who are affected by those regulation-making powers to bring a challenge against the Minister. So I want to know whether the Minister has had advice on his risk, if he doesn\u2019t give us somewhere\u2014and I grant that perhaps clause 3 is not the place that he wants to do it, but that is where I would do it. So if he is not giving himself cover, if he is not giving himself in primary legislation the ability to reject claims made against him, because of this regulation-making power that will conflict with previous regulation-making power, then what is he relying on to give himself the assurance that he\u2019s not opening up the Government to further risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002271e7ca09e7834b8bb94642f3d6b47c21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271e7ca09e7834b8bb94642f3d6b47c21\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I believe I\u2019ve addressed the questions which are in relation to the Act and where this is amending the Land Transport Act. There\u2019s been a range of other questions. I think some of them are best placed for\u2014like that last one\u2014clause 7. But the answer to all of the questions is very clearly the Land Transport Act enables the Clean Vehicle Standard and its regulation-making powers. We are amending, through this bill, those Acts, and that is exactly what we are doing, and there\u2019s no further comment to make on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u002246db733acd8e47258fcce038113a5a21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246db733acd8e47258fcce038113a5a21\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022464b7f95e247455cbc9f58781a144270\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022464b7f95e247455cbc9f58781a144270\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendments to clause 3 set out on Amendment Papers 42 and 43 are out of order as not being in the proper form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clause 3 are out of order as not being in the proper form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002259da2f2be07440f084426cba76ba1105\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000183\u0022\u003EClause 4  Act binds the Crown\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220fbc3e6bef1e41ac95b2bfb32107bb63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fbc3e6bef1e41ac95b2bfb32107bb63\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the debate on clause\u00A04. Clause 4 is \u201CAct binds the Crown\u201D. The question is that clause 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002218b32736354f4f5e9cedf04c19240267\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218b32736354f4f5e9cedf04c19240267\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is, again, another very simple clause within the bill. The Act binds the Crown because this Act binds the Crown, and it\u2019s a standard clause. I would note there\u2019s an amendment proposed which inserts\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cincluding those Crown entities defined in section 7 of the Crown Entities Act 2004\u201D. That is not necessary because Crown entities are an extension of the Crown; therefore, it is an unnecessary change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0afead73c3641ae8e099977a9be84c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0afead73c3641ae8e099977a9be84c4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think Mr\u00A0Rutherford was so quick to his feet that he was obviously wanting to make a contribution\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267462f0b1c3340cba5e1ed4cad863a9c\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Yield!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c79e26a177754c2fbd4160695c8c8bb6\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: So\u2014you\u2019d like me to yield? I\u2019m very happy to yield my time to the member for him to make a contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022454f52a00ffd44e597927d23c1284770\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: I move that debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e75b3b9a9bc746e4b4d1be022e29bd78\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, now, that\u2019s out of order. Now, I think the member has been here long enough to know that that is not\u2014when the member yields, there is expectation that there\u2019ll be some contribution to the debate. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a545ab33de8e45a9b99ead6c102a6af4\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a22dfff93f9e42fd8c0ae24ef969883a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I will resume my time after yielding it to the member. You know, isn\u2019t that fascinating? There was a real opportunity there to have a contribution from the Government. I don\u2019t think we actually have had any opportunity\u2014well, no, I\u2019ll withdraw that; we have had plenty of opportunity for members opposite to make contributions on this. It\u2019s very, very unfortunate that, you know, the invitation to yield my time, which I was happy to do\u2014and Mr Rutherford decided to head down a different path, which is rather unfortunate. But it is becoming symptomatic of how this Government is treating the process of urgency, this process where we haven\u2019t had an opportunity for members of the public to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022704be55916504c2c9f582019040007a2\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd767b0554da49bfb4dd607209fffd81\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance\u2014well, the relevance is that this is a Government that wants to seek to use parliamentary procedure to shut down debate after having a single call. I think that is actually unprecedented. I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve ever experienced\u2014certainly in my time here, albeit short\u2014a Minister speak, take the very first call on a contribution in committee stage, and then the very first call that\u2019s allocated is to myself; I barely got under way and then members opposite suggest that they\u2019d like me to yield, and then the only thing that they want to say is they want to shut down the debate. I think that is absolutely outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad42f64170e4adca5242b62202bf826\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: And the Chair has dealt with that, Mr Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f9dd68dc5da4920994cad56c679c16a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, thank you\u2014thank you, Mr Chair. Now, the amendment that I have\u2014we\u2019re turning now to clause 4, and I guess this is a clause that does bind the Crown. I infer from the Minister of Transport\u2019s response to my suggested amendment that\u2019s on Amendment Paper 43\u2014seeks to amend clause 4\u2014that he says that it\u2019s not necessary because they are already part of the Crown. I think that is what he was referring to\u2014getting a nod of the head there, so that\u2019s what it is. So I wonder whether that is the case, because the Crown entities themselves are identified in the Crown Entities Act, and specifically as listed within section 7, and there is a bit of a list there that provides some riders that relate to the meanings of Crown entity and the categories that exist thereof.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: has he reached that particular view as to whether they are Crown entities, whether they are autonomous Crown entities, whether they be independent Crown entities\u2014and there is a distinction and difference between those\u2014based on specific advice? If so, where did that advice come from\u2014so that we can effectively understand the position that he\u2019s in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002270b99705b15c46d38e39e51fe7753434\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270b99705b15c46d38e39e51fe7753434\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity, Mr Chair. I wish to take a brief call on the point here about my amendments\u2014there are three\u2014that seek to clarify, particularly, the point about who the regulations that the Minister of Transport is proposing to give himself the power to make will apply to and how they will open up the Crown for further risk, because in my previous contribution, which wasn\u2019t answered by the Minister, I proffered a question to him about how his regulation-making power under this new principle legislation would amend regulations that have been set out under a different piece of primary legislation, which would now be extinguished by his amendments. So there is an interaction there between industry participants who have, say, ordered cars in June last year that are due to be delivered in June this year, because it\u2019s quite common for the industry to place orders in New Zealand a year out. And so how the regulation-making powers of the Minister that he is providing to give himself interact with the regulations as they existed at that time is absolutely of interest to this House. Given that it hasn\u2019t been through a select committee process, we\u2019re unable to determine the impact of the differences in the regulations on industry participants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m proposing there is a clarification about how this Act binds the Crown and who it binds, because for Crown entities, the transport legislation picture is complex. Often the Office of the Auditor-General, when they come in to explain it to select committee, laugh at my silly questions about it, but I have learnt that there are a number of Crown entities and other entities in that picture who will be subject to those regulation-making powers too, and they will be open to challenge by industry participants and consumers. And it\u2019s actually not crystal clear in any Act whether that\u2019s set out in section\u00A07, as Tangi Utikere has provided for, or whether that\u2019s in the Standing Orders of this Parliament and subsequent advice. It\u2019s not clear which entities we are referring to when we say the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo it would be useful for some primary legislation to set out\u2014when the Minister is using his regulatory powers in this Act to amend regulations that were made under an old Act, which is no longer in force\u2014who is open to challenge, who is open to legal risk, what kind of legal risk was created for those entities, particularly about Crown entities? It\u2019s the Second Amendment that I\u2019ve put forward, and I\u2019d like the Minister to address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6aa2f9e9e1a427e8ad67b5bdce47b45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6aa2f9e9e1a427e8ad67b5bdce47b45\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022303d9309a2a24f24b638faf174bfbe6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022303d9309a2a24f24b638faf174bfbe6d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Given that the Minister of Transport hasn\u2019t been able to answer my question about Crown entities, I want him to focus then on the role of the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2014of Waka Kotahi\u2014in this regulatory system. I want him to tell the committee how his regulation-making powers will be applied to those two entities. I also want him to consider how regulatory bodies like the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority (EECA) and like the Commerce Commission\u2014which, as we\u2019ve already discussed, have a role in enforcing these standards on behalf of the industry and on behalf of consumers\u2014might have a role in this, and how his regulation-making powers might impact on the regulations that apply to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to consider whether giving some fuller explanation in his proposed clause 4\u2014which is short, but could be longer\u2014would be helpful to those other regulation-oversight bodies in clarifying their role when it comes to his regulation-making powers, because what he\u2019s proposing in his primary amendment is to give himself regulation-making powers under the Land Transport Act which could impact on a number of different regulation-making bodies. He says, \u201Cthe Crown as a whole\u201D, but does he intend to create regulations which create new requirements of EECA? Does he intend to create regulations that create new requirements for the Commerce Commission? He\u2019s told us that his policy intent does touch on the ambit of both EECA and the Commerce Commission in terms of his role in impacting not only the market via a market mechanism for cars but for consumers in providing them with more choice. Those are the policy goals which his own regulatory impact statement articulates very clearly, and not the goal to reduce carbon dioxide in the vehicles fleet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThose two policy goals are what he\u2019s told us are his goals. His regulations are likely to create regulations which impact on those two regulation-making bodies, and I would like to know whether he would clarify who it binds and whether he intends to create new binding recommendations for those regulation-making bodies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002299020d683be34366b19b410be9a7a65e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299020d683be34366b19b410be9a7a65e\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002226c04b1b1716410499a1078a91081e9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226c04b1b1716410499a1078a91081e9d\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We haven\u2019t had a response from the Minister of Transport, so there really is no other option for members on this side of the Chamber except to continue to put the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022709ed3fcd46944b78ecca09e301d11de\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, not another letter!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ef1e9316fb47f49409927c2fbeda70\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, here we go. I mean, members, they love to pose the questions and, really, it\u2019s an opportunity to respond to them, but the reality is this: we have posed questions to the Minister; he has yet to take a call. What members are seeking on this side of the Chamber is for him to simply address the issues that have been raised. My colleague Miss Williams has touched on some of the specifics around Crown entities. I\u2019ve referred to what is cited in section 7 of the Crown Entities Act. All that\u2019s required is the Minister to simply get up and provide a response. It\u2019s the information that we\u2019re wanting over here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to just double back to something that was raised earlier, and it is of relevance, Mr Chair, because it relates to the information that is currently before the committee in urgency to make decisions on whether we will support particular parts of this bill. I have yet to receive a response from the Minister in relation to the regulatory impact statement which has informed the decision-making capability, capacity, and ability of members of this House. It\u2019s important because it relates to page 6. Again, we\u2019re waiting for a response from the Minister around referencing within that document. For your benefit, Mr Chair, it\u2019s page 6 and it says \u201CError! Reference source not found.\u201D, and then it goes on to provide some information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is Budget-sensitive information that is available to members of the House. We do expect on this side of the Chamber that where there is information where it simply says there\u2019s an error, it needs to be rectified. So we\u2019ve asked the Minister what is the issue with that, what is the nature of that, and we\u2019re yet to receive a response. So I think it would be helpful even if he takes a call and says \u201CLook, we don\u2019t know.\u201D. Or maybe it\u2019s a formatting error\u2014I don\u2019t know. But when it appears in a document that\u2019s tabled, what\u2019s really important is that we need to understand that\u2014the way in which this Act would seek to bind the Crown\u2014and I don\u2019t think that there is any dispute around that. Where there is perhaps some unease and a little bit of a lack of information is to ensure that the other components, where decisions may be taken or made, that that still exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo, for example, if we get through this process and actually the Minister suddenly sees the light and thinks, \u201CYou know what? The policy objectives and outcomes of this particular piece of legislation are such that actually it shouldn\u2019t be fully within the Land Transport Act; it might be somewhere else.\u201D\u2014if there is another entity that is formed at some point in the future that might be responsible for delivering on some of the policy outcomes and objectives of the Minister, I guess it could be argued that that could be amended at that point in time. But is the fact that this Act binds the Crown\u2014does it fully cover the independent Crown entities, the autonomous nature of other Crown entities and others? Those are questions that have been put to the Minister and we are yet to receive a response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe whole way that this works is that members should feel free to put questions to the Minister, and the Standing Orders were changed to allow the Minister to respond to those questions and to those issues. So if the Minister continues to sit there and not actually address the questions that have been asked, that is a very poor strategy, I would suggest, because it means that\u2014and I\u2019ve said this before\u2014we\u2019re none the wiser and we have to keep asking the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAll the Minister needs to say is, \u201CWell, actually, no. I\u2019ve addressed that question because of XYZ.\u201D or \u201CI\u2019m not sure of why there\u2019s an error.\u201D I mean, he is free at any time to take some advice around this. But the responsibility is on all members of this committee to be asking questions in this space and the prime responsibility\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e463ff6f72bb4b9fa5d86a9456799893\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, 85.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdea922f1a9c4ee898f5b44652cc16b1\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: What is the reference there, Miss Williams?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298baecb4af3f46f5b34a5a134aa8e17c\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Speaker\u2019s ruling 80/5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e31d818d858451a92a7b0405e686948\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Right. So that should help\u2014is that we need to be engaging. But it\u2019s also actually a sole responsibility of the Minister in the chair to assist the committee through this process and to address the questions that have been put. And until that happens with this specific clause, we\u2019ll continue to seek calls until the Minister provides a response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0e4f8680b2f4882a2322c4e0bb10be0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0e4f8680b2f4882a2322c4e0bb10be0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Mr Chair, I\u2019ve been listening to the debate, and the answers to all of those questions are that this is a clause that is inserted into legislation everywhere. It is an Act which binds the Crown; the Crown includes Crown entities. This is the exact same clause which is in the primary legislation that\u2019s been amended. And so whilst it\u2019s a very curious debate that the Opposition members are seeking to engage in, the answer is incredibly clear. This is how parliamentary practice undertakes the amendment of legislation, by putting a simple clause in which says: \u201CThis Act binds the Crown.\u201D That is exactly what it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00223f9615f3bade476183c099aaeb5e1906\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f9615f3bade476183c099aaeb5e1906\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002235d47e12485042a3a9c896f4f247856f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002270493bd9201a447f81954ef709fe190f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270493bd9201a447f81954ef709fe190f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 4 set out on Amendment Paper 43 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221bc0f9dbad0b48678a94a52a6c0dbe78\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225a6bfe8e7cdb4967b6a988dd819b8489\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a6bfe8e7cdb4967b6a988dd819b8489\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4 to include a reference authorising regulations to allow applications to be declined until specific fees or charges have been paid is out of order as not being in the proper form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4 to include a reference to Crown entities is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4 to include an explanation of the meaning of \u201Cthe Crown\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab7f0cbfdf1e4ae392173525f62c92fb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223b7d16ed0e794c61b66ae4117cc22cbf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022724c2903eeac4fefbe43a6579de5e829\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022724c2903eeac4fefbe43a6579de5e829\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to insert new clauses 5B, 5C, and 5D should properly be inserted before clause 5, so we will address them now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 5B is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 5C is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 5D is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220aea0fe9e7424a50848b0fde7ce61954\u0022\u003EClause 5  New sections 167BA and 167BB inserted\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228dcb77713f5e464888d7f7dcf2f0453e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dcb77713f5e464888d7f7dcf2f0453e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to clause 5, \u201CNew sections 167BA and 167BB inserted\u201D. Members, please note Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 5H inserting new section\u00A0167BAB should properly be an amendment to clause 5, so it will be considered as part of this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00227f98523df46c437eb6e8267487332802\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f98523df46c437eb6e8267487332802\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is new sections 167BA and 167BB, inserted by clause 5. This is, effectively, a clause which inserts the ability for regulations to be made \u201Cfor the purpose of prescribing, or providing for the fixing of, fees and charges payable by a person\u201D, effectively, to cover the cost incurred by the agency and exercising the functions or powers, performing duties, or providing services under Part 13 or regulations relating to Part 13.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo, effectively, what this is doing is it\u2019s saying, well, the clean vehicle standard, which up until this point has been funded via general taxation\u2014there has been appropriation of, I think, around $11.8\u00A0million to fund the operation of the clean vehicle standard. Instead of it being paid for via general taxation, it will be paid for via fees or charges, and those will be determined under these sections, and this provides the powers for these regulations to be able to be set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, the reason for having a cost recovery model in place rather than the previous taxpayer-funded model is, effectively, for two reasons: firstly, we on this side of the House believe that, where possible, where particular parts of society or industries are being provided by the Crown, and there\u2019s a benefit to that industry, they should be paying for that. Of course, the argument from the other side is, \u201CWell, the benefit is wider, and, therefore, it should just be covered by everybody.\u201D There\u2019s an argument that can be had around that point, but we\u2019ve decided as a Government that it is our intention that those who import motor vehicles should be paying for the clean vehicle standard and the scheme. That is a fiscal saving for the Crown, but we\u2019ve also made sure that we go through a process to ensure that it is going to be a much more efficient system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWhen I became the Minister, I was advised that $11.8 million was allocated to the system. Actually, the real cost of operating it is much closer to $6.4 million. And so what we had was a Government which was overpaying, using taxpayers\u2019 money for a system which actually costs a lot less than is actually required. So we\u2019ve cut cost out; we\u2019ve made sure that it is going to be focused on what the actual cost is and expenses to do the job, rather than simply just allocating a certain amount of money and then spreading that cost across all taxpayers. So that\u2019s what this clause does. There\u2019s obviously a number of elements within it in relation to the people who will be paying. There\u2019s the empowering provisions around different rates or charges or both\u2014may be prescribed or fixed. It\u2019s, effectively, an empowering provision to achieve that purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThen, after this is passed, there will be ability, before it comes into law on 1\u00A0July\u00A02025, for a consultation and a process to be under way to determine what the appropriate mechanism is for this to be undertaken in consultation with the industry who will be paying this fee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4c1c9e126b8476ba0b90f67866bcc26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4c1c9e126b8476ba0b90f67866bcc26\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Can I thank the Minister of Transport for the fulsome contribution. I still would like\u2014and I\u2019ll continue to remind the Minister\u2014it would be very helpful if we go back to the regulatory impact analysis; a response around that reference. That would just close that one off, I think, and provide some certainty. It could just be an error, but\u2014well, it is an error; we just need to understand what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re now moving into the meaty part of this bill. Clauses 5, 6, and 7 are where all the action takes place. So I\u2019ve got a lot of questions that I would like to put to the Minister.  Firstly, in the proposed new section 167BA subsection (1), inserted by clause 5, there obviously is the discretion there around \u201Cregulations may\u201D do a certain thing, but it talks about \u201Cthe purpose of prescribing \u2026 for the fixing of, fees \u2026 to meet, or assist in meeting, the costs\u201D. Now, the Minister has talked about a user-pays approach and a user-pays system. My question is then: shouldn\u2019t it simply be that they either meet the costs or they don\u2019t, and if not, how will that be managed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022f252632ee7bf4e3a8682a0a710a310c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f252632ee7bf4e3a8682a0a710a310c8\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E As I said, this is an empowering provision. There are a number of elements to it and the Government\u2019s intention is for this provision to enable a process to be under way which will ensure that the costs of operating the system are covered by those, who, in new section 167BA (2), inserted by clause 5, import vehicles, are paying for the cost of running it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002200033c7789e247dfbb8c41d463ec31cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200033c7789e247dfbb8c41d463ec31cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just indicate in the Chair that this is obviously quite a substantive section, so if members have a series of questions and the Minister\u2014bearing in mind it takes two to tango. If there\u2019s going to be an across-the-board question and answer, I\u2019ll indulge that. Otherwise, we\u2019ll keep moving around generally, depending on how long the questioner takes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2d1befa185c436a8de2495a27b32f30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2d1befa185c436a8de2495a27b32f30\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, sir. Can I move now to subclause (3) in that section, section 167BA, which talks about the different rates of fees or charges that have been prescribed\u2014OK\u2014in respect of different classes of vehicles or on any other differential basis? Could he provide some assurance or understanding for the committee on what that differential basis may look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00222bddfdd7af2649b0b8b2cab418fdbbea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bddfdd7af2649b0b8b2cab418fdbbea\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, as I said, this is an empowering provision which enables for regulations to be set, effectively, to determine the cost recovery model. So, of course, there are different classes of vehicles; there are different types of vehicles. If you read the remainder of this part of the Land Transport Act, there are similar types of references to this, and, effectively, that allows for an enabling piece of legislation, an enabling type of regulation to be put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00220763726e9610421f8e70ee8bc322d2cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220763726e9610421f8e70ee8bc322d2cf\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you, Minister. The other one of interest to me is subsection (5) of section 167BA\u2014this is inserted by clause 5. This is about the role of the director in terms of either reducing or waiving the penalty for a late payment, and it really is around the process that would guide the director to do so, because what I see at the end of that subsection are the words \u201Cif the Director considers it is just to do so.\u201D Now, \u201Cjust\u201D would mean different things to different people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo my question is: will there be some guidance provided around how the director\u2014who would have that power to effectively waive or dispose of the penalty, or reduce it\u2014would go about that? Does he see that there needs to be some specific guidance by which they should go about that? Does the Minister of Transport see that he would consider that there is a need for there to be some guidance in the regulations, or would that be something that he would expect the director to in-house, basically, determine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220950f843eed64bc99a4a81165e8bd6bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220950f843eed64bc99a4a81165e8bd6bb\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, again, this is an empowering provision. The director is independent and this is enabling the director to be able to make those decisions where it\u2019s just to do so. Ultimately, that provides the director some discretion. There are a number of times and cases where, as the member will be well aware, as an electorate MP, people come and see you in your office and raise issues that may well fit within certain policies but it may not be just. It\u2019s a discretionary provision and it empowers the director to have that discretion, which I think is about fairness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002220fe3bd9662f462683f649aeea7c730c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220fe3bd9662f462683f649aeea7c730c\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. Can I just refer to the penalty component. Where is the penalty that\u2019s outlined in clause 5 actually identified? Subsection (1) of section 167BA, in clause 5, doesn\u2019t mention, define, or identify the penalty. It talks about only fees and charges. So it\u2019s not appropriate as a penalty to fall perhaps under costs and expenses, as that falls under the agency\u2019s actions or within\u00A0the sort of realm of the director. In terms of identifying the penalty component, where would that lie?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002275fbf6f224d148c9bc03793f4543c4f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275fbf6f224d148c9bc03793f4543c4f8\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E In section 167BA, my understanding is that section 167BA(4) provides for regulations for the purpose specified in subsection (1). The director may \u201Cdo any of the things specified \u2026 (b) specify the persons to whom any fees or charges, or both, are payable: (c) provide for unpaid fees or charges to be recoverable as a debt due to the Crown.\u201D So there\u2019s a subsection there that provides for that. That\u2019s my understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002227a9f52e5c8043ce8f3a9c3c974bd0ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227a9f52e5c8043ce8f3a9c3c974bd0ca\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. Can I just refer to the penalty component. Where is the penalty that\u2019s outlined in clause 5 actually identified? New section 167BA(1) doesn\u2019t mention, define, or identify penalty\u2014it talks about only fees and charges. So it\u2019s not appropriate as a penalty to fall, perhaps, under costs and expenses, as that falls under the agency\u2019s actions or within the sort of realm of the director. So in terms of identifying the penalty component, where would that lie?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00222084fe53d8ee4133862a24c5c84aba65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222084fe53d8ee4133862a24c5c84aba65\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my understanding that new section 167BA(4) provides for regulations \u201Cfor the purpose specified in subsection (1) may\u2014(a) do any of the things specified \u2026 (b) specify the persons to whom any fees [are charged] \u2026 (c) provide for unpaid fees or charges to be recoverable as a debt due\u201D. So there\u2019s a clause there that provides for that\u2014that\u2019s my understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022673b77b7dd9f4f648582735c56f3acf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022673b77b7dd9f4f648582735c56f3acf9\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I wanted to ask the Minister of Transport if he has received any advice or if there\u2019s been any analysis done on the cost and administrative burden created by having a cost recovery scheme. I understand that the goal of having the cost recovery scheme is to put the cost on vehicle importers rather than more general taxation but, as the Minister himself has said, it\u2019s a relatively low cost of administering the Clean Car Standard\u2014$6 million a year. It\u2019s a very small percentage of the overall transport budget. It\u2019s very small compared to, just for example, I think the Government spent already $1 million investigating the long tunnel in Wellington. So $6 million a year is pretty small in the context of things. Has there been any analysis or work done to consider whether it\u2019s worthwhile having a cost recovery scheme or whether that, in and of itself, is going to create some additional administration? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002216f8f7a088cd4e3bbec64a4b33c350ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216f8f7a088cd4e3bbec64a4b33c350ff\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the New Zealand Transport Agency, as the member will know, has a range of different cost recovery systems in place for a range of different services, whether it\u2019s small things or large things. They do this in their business across\u2014whether it\u2019s driver licensing, warrants of fitness, fines, tolls; they have these systems in place already. As I\u2019ve already made clear, the advice we\u2019ve received is that it will be around $6.5 million per year to operate this system. That is far less than the $11.8 million that the last Government was allocating towards operating it. We want to make sure we\u2019re operating it as efficiently as possible whilst enabling the cost to be recovered from those who are importing vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cab02fa0e76a4c59845e9089ea2aec51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cab02fa0e76a4c59845e9089ea2aec51\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Thanks very much for that, Minister. I don\u2019t believe you\u2019ve addressed the question about whether the Minister of Transport has received any advice about the cost of the cost recovery scheme\u2014what that will be. The Minister mentioned tolls. Obviously, the revenue from tolls, at least 30 percent of that just goes to the cost of administering the tolls or collecting the tolls. So there\u2019s a pretty large component of cost recovery schemes that is used just to run the cost recovery scheme itself. So has the Minister received any information about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll reiterate a question I asked earlier in the debate\u2014I think it was at clause 2\u2014about why the Minister hasn\u2019t referred this part of the legislation to a select committee, given that there\u2019s still no indication of what the design of the scheme will be, and it would make sense for that to go through a select committee process, even if it is a shortened one, and we have a whole year before it\u2019s going to be brought into operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the questions are: has he received any advice, and, if so, what is it on the additional cost and administrative burden of creating a cost recovery scheme for something that isn\u2019t very expensive? Secondly, as a very small percentage of the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2019s overall budget\u2014and why hasn\u2019t the Government considered doing a proper select committee process around the establishment of this cost recovery scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0dee761052a442d903073d56d8e638f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0dee761052a442d903073d56d8e638f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the advice I\u2019ve received is in relation to the costs of operating the system, which is around $6.5 million. It says the importation process is largely self-service. The team receives a high volume of requests to support, from industry at various stages of the vehicle life cycle. So there\u2019s a range of people who operate the system. There\u2019s an automatic system which already does the work, and this simply puts a cost recovery mechanism on top. And the advice is that it would cost around $6.5 million to operate that. That is a lot less than the $11.8 million that was being allocated by the last Government. So we\u2019ve found efficiencies and we are putting in place a cost recovery model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002275bbf34a0eec4728afa3c736732f6f0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275bbf34a0eec4728afa3c736732f6f0b\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The Minister of Transport mentions that, previously, more money was allocated than it was actually costing to administer the scheme. Wouldn\u2019t it be normal practice in Government for the New Zealand Transport Agency to then return any excess funding? Or, presumably, it would be putting it towards other parts of its business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just trying to understand what the outcome of the Minister saying it\u2019s going to cost less than what was originally appropriated is, because, under normal practice, if a Government agency isn\u2019t using the full allocation, then it just goes back to the Crown. But, again, presumably the process of figuring out how the cost recovery scheme is going to work is going to require some work from public officials. Then there\u2019s going to be the work done by the car importers themselves to determine how much each of them owed, to pay for the operation of the service. So there is some additional administrative cost from running a cost recovery scheme. Has the Minister had any advice whatsoever on what that cost might be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00224c1ae8f346f94495a63de765dfffb8f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c1ae8f346f94495a63de765dfffb8f2\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E As I said, the advice I have received is that the cost of the scheme is around $6.5 million per year, and we\u2019re putting in place a cost recovery model so that people who use it pay for it. I know that can be a foreign\u00A0concept to some parties, but, ultimately, we want to ensure this is a user-pays, cost recovery model. This is an empowering provision which allows that to happen. Over the next 12 months, that work will be under way so that it comes into force on 1 July 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7a180a0f9734bc9b927ed79d3019115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7a180a0f9734bc9b927ed79d3019115\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I think it\u2019s really ironic in a way that the Government is focusing on establishing a cost recovery scheme to recover $6 million, which is a tiny percentage of the overall transport budget, for administering a fuel economy standards programme that has wide benefits across New Zealand. It is true that the people who benefit the most when it is quantified as cost-benefit analysis are the people who will be spending less money on fuel as a result of having more efficient vehicles available to purchase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EHowever, the idea of user-pays\u2014or, you know, individual responsibility; people making a contribution\u2014was exactly the whole point of the Clean Car Discount, which was that people buying high-emissions vehicles were making some contribution to lowering emissions elsewhere in the fleet. The idea that everybody would pull their weight, that those who needed a high-emissions vehicle could still get that vehicle and drive it, but all together we had to make some sort of contribution towards reducing emissions from the fleet\u2014and it makes sense that those purchasing the higher-emissions vehicles would make a contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, on the one hand, the Government has rhetoric around user-pays and everyone making their own contribution, but in reality it\u2019s the exact opposite. They want polluters to be subsidised by New Zealand; for New Zealand to have a bigger burden of cost in terms of offsetting emissions because we\u2019re not going to make those reductions. It\u2019s very, very clear from the modelling that\u2019s been done that removing a clean car discount means 100,000 fewer zero-emission vehicles on the roads. That\u2019s going to mean higher emissions versus a given amount of travel. If the Clean Car Standard is watered down, which seems to be the intention of this bill, then that could mean hundreds of thousands more vehicles that are higher emissions right at the time when we need to be importing zero emissions vehicles to have any hope of reducing emissions from transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, the cost of not meeting our emissions target is actually going to be felt by all of us. It\u2019s going to be felt in terms of the Government needing to spend more money on offsets offshore, presumably. There\u2019s going to be higher costs just because we\u2019re going to be spending more money on fuel to get around, and there\u2019s going to be costs to New Zealand because we\u2019re going to be making a larger contribution to, you know, devastating climate impacts. So I don\u2019t understand how, on the one hand, the Government can say they believe in user-pays and people making a contribution, however, in the same breath, they\u2019re taking away schemes that were enabling everybody in New Zealand who was bringing in new vehicles to contribute to a lower average emissions. But, clearly, the Minister hasn\u2019t received advice or isn\u2019t going to share with us the advice of any additional cost of bringing in a cost recovery scheme for the administration of the fuel economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBecause we haven\u2019t been able to have a select committee process, I think it is appropriate that we canvass the arguments right here in this debate today, because this is under urgency, all stages of the bill are going through. Ultimately, these changes will have a substantial impact on New Zealand, on New Zealand\u2019s climate, whether or not we meet our climate targets, but more broadly on the overall impacts of our transport on health, on air quality, on noise. There\u2019s so many ways in which higher emissions vehicles have costs on New Zealand\u2014broad costs\u2014and the goal of the Clean Car Standard and the Clean Car Discount together was to achieve an outcome which meant lower-emissions vehicles on the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIf we go back to the public consultation that was done by the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, sometime before we came into Government, on whether or not people would support a feebate, when people were presented with information on how a feebate works, generally there was broad support for it, because there was a sense in which those buying new, highly polluting vehicles should make some small contribution to more zero-emission vehicles on the fleet. In fact, those people directly benefit because they continue to drive the high-emitting vehicles that they need for whatever reason. And no one\u2019s going to presume to know what that reason is, but it\u2019s fair enough that they should make some contribution to getting more zero-emission vehicles on the road, because it offsets\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a943cfb8d77f4720933a02b25509aa79\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a question for the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c699b78d7695486a9f2a56a40589c924\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve given up, Madam Chair, on asking questions\u2014on getting answers from the Minister. So I think it\u2019s appropriate for, on the Hansard, these arguments to be put forward, given that we have not had a select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022502571a204f84f30a0a134c49b074ad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022502571a204f84f30a0a134c49b074ad6\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and as I\u2019ve stated in previous answers to questions, this is about a cost recovery model. It will charge those who import the vehicles. I think it\u2019s a very simple and clear piece of empowering legislation which then empowers regulations to be set. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a number of tabled amendments in relation to this piece of legislation, or this clause, clause 5. There\u2019s Amendment Paper 42: \u201Creplace \u2018prescribing, or providing for the fixing of,\u2019 \u2026 with \u2018reducing and limiting\u2019 \u201D. That\u2019s not consistent with Government policy. It would not work in practice; limiting fees that don\u2019t actually exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to clause 5, another proposal, Amendment Paper 43, to \u201Creplace \u2018services\u2019 \u2026 with \u2018back-office administration\u2019 \u201D, that\u2019s inconsistent with Government policy; potentially limits cost recovery in relation to front-line support services. \u201CServices\u201D is broader and more accurately reflects the policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAmendment Paper 44, clause 5, new section 167BA(4)(c): \u201Creplace \u2018Crown\u2019 \u2026 with \u2018Agency\u2019 \u201D. Well, the agency is an extension of the Crown; we\u2019ve already had that debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAmendment Paper 45: insert \u201CBefore any regulations are made \u2026 the regulations will appropriately increase the supply and availability of vehicles with zero carbon dioxide emissions;\u201D. This doesn\u2019t make sense because this is to do with the cost recovery mechanism, which is, effectively, what we are doing here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAmendment Paper 46: \u201Cauthorise the Registrar or the Director to decline to process a person\u2019s registration application until the person has paid any fee or charge payable:\u201D. That\u2019s already enabled by new section 167BB and could recreate conflicts regarding the interpretation if mentioned twice, and so we won\u2019t be supporting any of those tabled amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225877595746624dba858f7bd8cd0ec87e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225877595746624dba858f7bd8cd0ec87e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My first question of the Minister of Transport is this. The Minister told the committee\u2014and I thank him for this information\u2014that the budget for this part of the ministry is going down from $11\u00A0million to $6.9 million. Can he advise the committee whether that $11 million included the administration of the Clean Car Discount\u2014not the cost of the Clean Car Discount, but the\u00A0administration of the Clean Car Discount\u2014in addition to this regulation-making function as to the standard? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d1e089340145acbe5f0c9a17cff5a6\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b91045b9aa8b47bcab5892dbb2344ba5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Ah\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd90a4d326614e8b9cfbf467e0a11480\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Madam Chair, I had a number of questions, but I was trying to do it on the backwards and forwards basis. If\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7450bfd901f4a2e9b6589c0771d0ff1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The clock\u2019s still ticking\u2014so the Hon David Parker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c10fdcb58c52466c8fa4c786a305d4cc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK, I call. The next question I had was that I would like to have some dialogue with the Minister as to how it is that the standards are going to be developed, because that goes to cost and, actually, relates partly to the issues I was raising in an earlier clause on the bill relating to whether this should sit with the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority. I hope the Minister will agree with me that one of the trade-offs that is being made in a standard is what is the capital cost of a more expensive, more efficient vehicle, and how that compares with the savings that are made by the user of that vehicle on lower fuel costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThose lower fuel costs have two reasons. One, electricity is a more efficient converter of energy to motion than the burning of a fossil fuel, so the same energy content of electricity takes a vehicle further if it\u2019s electricity than it does if it is petrol or diesel because the conversion of petrol and diesel to motion results in a lot of that energy being lost as heat. That\u2019s the essential physical reason. The second reason why electricity is cheaper, in a fuel sense, than petrol is that per calorie, if you like, or per unit of heat, electricity per unit of energy is cheaper than fossil fuels\u2014renewables are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere are two reasons why the costs are cheaper to the consumer, but those benefits of the cheaper energy price are spread over a long period. The capital cost is borne by the importer of that vehicle on day one, and so in order to compare the benefits of lower costs of, essentially, electricity compared with fossil fuels with the capital costs, there has to be a mechanism to compare the benefits that are received over a period of time compared with the cost that is incurred up front. That is achieved by applying a cost of capital to the upfront costs and comparing it with the benefits that flow over time, which are discounted to take into account the fact that they are not received until a future date in order to compare the cost of this. Now, this is technical work. It\u2019s important work, but what drives the outcome is actually the discount rate that you use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy next question to the Minister is: does he think that the ministry has got the headline capacity to actually make that proper assessment of the discount rate to do it? Again, I would make the point that this work has been done time and again already by the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, who assess what is the appropriate discount rate to be applied. Until that discount rate was actually set at a fair level\u2014and there were scraps on this in the early 2000s, when Jeanette Fitzsimons was in charge of the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, when I was the Minister of Energy, and we sorted this out and we got to a decent discount rate. Unless the discount rate is appropriately low, you kill the economics in the cost-benefit analysis. So my first question is: why is it that these costs that are going to be recovered are going to include the cost of doing that cost-benefit analysis again in the Ministry of Transport, when we know that that capability already sits within the energy conservation authority? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228ee99fde24ef466ea463408ee708fe9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ee99fde24ef466ea463408ee708fe9a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a series of questions, but I\u2019ll start with the first set of questions. This is with regards to clause 5, new section 167BA(2), which is around the definition of \u201CThe persons\u201D and, in this case, a \u201Cvehicle importer\u201D in paragraphs (a) and (b) around the type of vehicle that has not been registered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, going by the cost recovery impact statement, we\u2019re seeing that a lot of the modelling in terms of the cost of the charge that is going to be potentially implemented is on the basis of 300,000 imported vehicles a year. But what I\u2019m not seeing in paragraph (b) is whether it has been specified whether these cars or these vehicles have never been registered, period, or have never been registered in New Zealand. So this is going to be incredibly crucial in terms of that estimated number and the kind of vehicle that we would be looking at that would have this particular charge incurred as a result. If the Minister of Transport, as a first question, wouldn\u2019t mind just clarifying, in new section 167BA(2)(b), whether these registered vehicles are only for the first time being registered here in New Zealand, or are they looking at brand new vehicles, period, or whether that definition needs to be assumed or implicit and doesn\u2019t need to be highlighted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAgain, kind of looking at this in terms of pages 5 and 6 of the cost recovery impact statement and in particular the publicist\u2019s error: \u201Creference was not found.\u201D But looking at the table itself, which is, again, based on the average of 300,000, there\u2019s the \u201CAdministration fee ($) partial CR\u201D and, also, \u201CAdministrative fee ($) full CR\u201D. Again, when we are looking at that particular definition and that number of the average 300,000 vehicles, it will be really good for the Minister to clarify where some of those numbers come from, because it then determines some of the cost that is associated with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022a641db6e952d4dcb8ef971c7aced3488\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a641db6e952d4dcb8ef971c7aced3488\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e39f50177d4942499174c43efc727c69\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Aw!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9ead8815b7449ad898b165244d5d057\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for the opportunity to take a quick call. I understand that the\u00A0Hon Rachel Brooking is upset, but she will, I\u2019m sure, have an opportunity to take her\u00A0call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI need to bring us back to a few things that the Minister of Transport said in his contribution a couple of calls ago, when he spoke about the Government\u2019s policy and some of the amendments being inconsistent with Government policy. This is the first time that the Minister offered us a view of what Government policy is for his proposed amendments, which has been at issue all morning, as we have made the case that he is amending the wrong Act here and that his Government policy is inconsistent with the purpose of the Land Transport Act\u2014particularly section 170, which sets out a purpose for reducing carbon dioxide emissions over the transport fleet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister stood and he said that my amendment to new section 167BA, to replace \u201Cfor the purpose of prescribing or providing for the fixing of,\u201D with \u201Cfor the purpose of reducing\u201D is inconsistent with Government policy, that is absolutely worthy of this committee\u2019s attention. This is the first time that we have heard from the Minister that it is not his policy intent, that it is not Government policy, to use the clean vehicle standard to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. That is something that we really should have been able to consider at select committee. If the clean vehicle standard, which was introduced by the prior Government with very broad support around this House, is now not to be used to reduce carbon emissions over the vehicle fleet, is not to be used to contribute to New Zealand\u2019s international climate change obligations, then that is something we really need to understand. I hope the Minister will be able to clarify what he meant when he said that it is not the Government\u2019s policy intent to use it for the purpose of reducing carbon dioxide emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI will be fair to him: I think that what he might have been trying to advance there was that it might be restrictive in some way to specify that the purpose of it is to reduce the carbon dioxide across the fleet. But, really, the question here becomes: should there be a split purpose to also prescribe, to provide, fix, and to reduce, or should we be clear that it is to reduce? In which case, that, I guess, would be a further commitment to the ratchet provisions in the secondary legislation that exists. It\u2019s not an answer to the question for the Minister to stand and say that these are empowering provisions to create further regulatory mechanisms, when we know\u2014and from the comments of the Minister in this debate, we understand\u2014that he\u2019s already given some thought to what those regulatory standards will be when he provides himself the power to set them. He\u2019s already considered what they will be. So he needs to be able to give us an assurance, because this is the only time that the House will be able to have a debate on what he sets the standards to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHe needs to provide us an assurance that it is the Government\u2019s intent to continue to reduce carbon dioxide emissions across the vehicle fleet. We might disagree on how fast that needs to be. We might disagree on ratchet provisions which give the industry certainty. It\u2019s certainly our position, on this side of the Chamber, that giving the industry certainty in each year is the most important thing Government could do\u2014almost regardless of how fast you go, that providing the car industry with certainty would be the most important consideration. So if it\u2019s not his intent to provide that reduction over time in his regulations, he needs to clarify that for us right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00222d96039f35b84eda999c486cd99b3129\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d96039f35b84eda999c486cd99b3129\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and for the questions. There\u2019s been a number of questions. I guess the Hon David Parker is asking questions in relation to the issue which was around who should be administering the standard. Ultimately, I\u2019ve already answered those questions in prior debates, in relation to the fact that the previous Government ensured that it would go through under the Land Transport Act. That is the Act that the last Government put these provisions within, which means that it is managed by the transport agencies. So we\u2019re not intending to change that. We think that they are the appropriate agencies, as they\u2019ve already set up the system. There is already a Clean Car Standard system in place. This is simply just enabling cost recovery for that system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of the other questions, many of those questions in relation to what the standard should be are quite separate from the debate in this clause, which is in relation to cost recovery for administering it. That is, quite simply, what this particular clause is doing: cost recovery for the administration of the standard. There is a known amount of money that it costs to administer the standard, and this empowers regulations to be made to recover those costs. This doesn\u2019t deal with the emissions standards or any of those particular elements; this is simply about making sure there\u2019s a cost recovery in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4b3294f0cce4b57853afde906a6c901\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4b3294f0cce4b57853afde906a6c901\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, I know my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking is keen; perhaps she\u2019ll get a future call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to turn to what I guess is a quite specific list of provisions that are contained within this new section 167BA, inserted by clause 5, that\u2019s being proposed. It\u2019s specifically within new subsection (4), and this is about the nature or the purpose of what the regulations will seek to do or achieve. Specifically, I only want to focus on (4)(a), and that references section 168 of the Land Transport Act and identifies a bit of a list. Now, it relates to subsection (4), and, basically, subsection (4) creates a whole list of criteria within which the regulations could seek to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat this subsection seeks to do is, basically, identify just five of the criteria that would relate; it doesn\u2019t take them all. I know the first one is around specifying the persons who would be responsible for having fees or charges\u2014or both, actually\u2014being payable. Section 168(4)(ab) is around the provision for the imposition of a person to whom the fees are payable to have a connection with the administration of any payment. There are five of them. The third one is (d), which provides for \u201Cthe refund, waiver, or the rebate or enabling the refund,\u201D or the charge. Section 168(4)(e) is fixing, or empowering the fixing of, the date by which any fee or charge is to be paid. So that is quite specific. The final one is (f) and that is, basically, around the discounts for early payments, and penalties for late payments, which we have touched on in terms of the late payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere are two parts within that particular subsection that might have some relevance\u2014perhaps one more than the other. My question to the Minister of Transport is: why haven\u2019t they been referred or why are they not included in this new section? The first of them is section 168(4)(aa): \u201Cprescribe fees and charges payable, or provide for their fixing (including a means by which they may be calculated and ascertained, or a rate at which they may be calculated or ascertained):\u201D. So my question for the Minister is: is that section not relevant, or that component not relevant, in the consideration of this; if so, why has it been excluded from the list defined in new subsection (4) of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other is the final one. It\u2019s just trying to cover off whether or not there any other catch-all provisions there. It\u2019s (h), which relates to identifying those fees and charges that are land transport revenue for the purposes of the Land Transport Management Act 2003. Now, we\u2019ve talked previously about the relativity of that particular Act and it not being relevant to being referred to as a principal Act. But there is a question there for the Minister, which is: could it be conceived that fees and charges in this context could be seen as land transport revenue? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227760ce5524874a1b96bf89771a9e5008\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed934d1045594e4b89a11a153de3b66a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: That is the issue and it is quite a broad definition, but then it is captured by whether or not it\u2019s for the purposes of the Land Transport Management Act. Now, it might be that that piece of legislation does have\u2014well, it does have some correlation with this Act. But my question to the Minister is: whether (aa) and (h) have on purpose been left out from the relevant criteria in new subsection (4)(a), and, if so, why is that the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00229614ee3042884c62ae07d7ca718b602f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229614ee3042884c62ae07d7ca718b602f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Despite my excitement, I do not have as exciting a contribution as some of my very learned colleagues have made on, particularly, policy issues and some very good questions that I\u2019ve heard the Minister not yet answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got two questions, and one has already been briefly traversed by Tangi Utikere and the Minister of Transport, and that was around subsection (5) of new section 167BA, inserted by clause 5, which is: \u201CThe Director may, at any time, reduce or waive a penalty \u2026 if the Director considers that it is just to do so.\u201D And the Minister responded about the discretion of that director. It would be useful to have on the Hansard whether or not the Minister expects that there would be guidance for what \u201Cjust to do so\u201D means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut the main point I want to traverse, which I don\u2019t believe has been touched on yet, is the definition of a \u201Cvehicle importer\u201D. So that\u2019s it\u2014so we\u2019re at subclause (2). If you look at the definition of a \u201Cvehicle importer\u201D in the main Act, section 2 is the interpretation section for the entirety of the Act, and that doesn\u2019t include a definition of \u201Cvehicle importer\u201D\u2014it does have a definition of \u201Cimported\u201D, but not that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen you can go to section 172. It\u2019s important to note that section 172 of the main Act is in Part 13 of the Act. And the parts are important because section 172 says: \u201Cfor the purposes of this Part\u201D, here are the definitions. So that\u2019s Part 13. Part 13 is \u201CClean vehicle standard\u201D, and, of course, it\u2019s been traversed much in this debate. In section 172, a vehicle importer means, as the case may require, \u201C(a) a category 1 light vehicle importer:\u201D or \u201C(b) a category 2 light vehicle importer\u201D. But section 172 is constrained by \u201Cin this part of the Act\u201D. So that\u2019s Part 13.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re looking here at a new section 167BA, and section 167BA is not in Part 13 of the primary legislation; I think it might be even in Part 10. But, whatever it is, it\u2019s not Part 13. Now, then we see at subsection (7) of this new section that we\u2019re looking at, it says: \u201CIn this section \u2018and section 167BB\u2019, \u2018Type A vehicle\u2019, \u2018Type B vehicle\u2019, and \u2018vehicle importer\u2019 \u201D\u2014which is the definition that I\u2019m interested in\u2014\u201Chave the meanings given in section 172(1).\u201D So, you might say, well, that fixes the problem, but I think it would be much clearer and better drafting\u2014and I\u2019m asking the Minister if he would consider an amendment to section 172 so that those definitions were not restricted to Part\u00A013 of the Act. It could even refer specifically to the regulation-making parts of the Act or it might be better, in fact, that these definitions that are currently found in section 172 of the primary legislation would be better found in section 2 of the primary legislation, which is the general interpretation section for the whole of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I think that would be useful to know in the Hansard\u2014what the Minister\u2019s thoughts are on either further amendments of section 172 or section 2 of the primary legislation so that it\u2019s clear that those definitions apply to all of the relevant parts of what will be the amended legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u00221c541d8580864e97b3deba6d12561370\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c541d8580864e97b3deba6d12561370\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a number of questions about the recovery of costs in administering the clean vehicle standard (CVS). Given that there is no select committee process and officers have not been able to yet determine how to implement the Minister of Transport\u2019s preference for option two as a fee per car, I\u2019m very interested in hearing from the Minister where he will be receiving advice, not just on the administrative efficiency\u2014and we\u2019re all, I\u2019m sure, keen on administrative efficiency as well as vehicle efficiency\u2014but also how the effect of the mechanism chosen will affect the distribution of benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI note that we talked about the general policy statement referring to the cost of administering the CVS and that there are number of benefits issued. Some of those benefits undoubtedly accrue to the individual owner of a new vehicle or the operator of a new vehicle in terms of fuel savings and maintenance spending, but surely the reduction in the social cost of carbon dioxide emissions accrue to the community as a whole, and one could be quite wide in who that community includes. It might not even be just our species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EGiven that we are not having an open and robust process through select committee, will the Minister be, for example, seeking advice from, as the Hon David Parker suggests, the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority? Will the Minister be seeking advice from electric vehicle owners, from Electrify NZ? Or perhaps he could look at the cost recovery from the many different countries that have been far in advance of Aotearoa New Zealand in implementing some form of standards. If only we had done this 20 years ago, we would\u2019ve saved so much money; we would\u2019ve saved health; and we would\u2019ve saved emissions. Let\u2019s get on with it and find out the best way of charging for this that maximises the benefit not just to the individual but to our community. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9cc980b35cd457993b02233d97aca02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9cc980b35cd457993b02233d97aca02\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for their questions. I\u2019ve already answered or addressed the issue there in relation to how to cost recover. I appreciate there are arguments for different ways in which you could do cost recovery. Either you say that the cost should be recovered from people who use the system or you could say that the cost should be recovered from society at large. This Government has determined, through the policy settings, that it should be recovered through the people who use the system. So we don\u2019t agree with the member\u2019s argument, but I do appreciate that there is an argument in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question from Tangi Utikere in relation to new section 167BA(4), in clause 5, in relation to why paragraph (h) is not referred to\u2014a very good question. That is because if that was referred to, then the revenue could go into the National Land Transport Fund, and so by not allowing it to go into the National Land Transport Fund, it means that the cost recovery is much clearer and it ensures that the money goes towards paying for the running of the system and not just for generally going into the Land Transport Fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f536ed379c5e4b1da274a150636bd6fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f536ed379c5e4b1da274a150636bd6fa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister of Transport whether these new regulation-making powers that give him more flexibility as to the distinction between type A and type B vehicles\u2014I understand the distinction between different classes of importer. If you have an importer that imports a lot of vehicles like Toyota, then they\u2019ve got more flexibilities between models over a year, and the existing legislation also allows them to bank credits towards a future year if they\u2019re doing better than the required average set by the standard\u2014and that\u2019s a good thing, probably. I\u2019m not sure about the banking point, but it\u2019s a good thing that they\u2019ve all got flexibility within their own portfolio of vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI wonder if the Minister can tell the committee whether the flexibility introduced by these regulation-making powers increases or changes the ability of the Minister, or gives the Minister, on advice from the ministry, the ability to change the categories between different sizes of vehicles? This is a vexed question because the more specific the regulation is and the more classes of vehicle that are created, the less flexibility there is for the car companies to meet the standard in the most cost-efficient manner. I would hope the Minister is giving himself more flexibility through these provisions because we don\u2019t have the chance to do this through select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe reason why I would be supportive of that additional flexibility being given to the Minister is that if it\u2019s more cost effective for Toyota, for example, to meet its average obligations by importing a larger number of very small, very fuel-efficient cars, or more Prius hybrids, which are obviously cost effective, to actually offset the emissions for a large vehicle that for reasons of utility needs to be a fully internal combustion car, for example\u2014I know there are ute alternatives at the moment, but there might be some greater case for purely petrol or diesel large utes, and it would be more cost effective for consumers in New Zealand, including the buyers of utes, if Toyota could use the ability to bring in more of the smaller vehicles in order to meet the overall average that we\u2019re trying to achieve as a country, which is to overall improve the efficiency of the fleet. We recognise there\u2019s a transition that\u2019s going to take longer for larger vehicles than for smaller vehicles. So my question in respect of that issue is whether that additional flexibility is being introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy second point is just to return to a matter when the Minister wasn\u2019t in the chair. I did ask the question as to whether discount rates\u2014because discount rates really drive the outcome of the cost-benefit analysis as to how hard you drive the standard, because you\u2019re trying to compare the additional capital cost of a cleaner vehicle with the fuel savings. There\u2019s a timing difference, and you reconcile those two numbers by the application of discount rates to convert into current dollars the future benefit of lower fuel costs compared with the additional capital cost which is incurred today. And if you use the wrong discount rate, you actually kill the cost-benefit analysis; you\u2019ll find that nothing makes sense. Those debates have been had ad infinitum within both the Treasury and Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority. I would hope that the Minister is, within these regulation-making powers, able to keep an eye on that discount rate, because if that discount rate is inappropriately used, you will get the wrong outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy third question for him in the short time I\u2019ve got before I need to sit down here is: has the Minister considered just handing this whole thing over to the private sector? I know that a long time ago\u2014like back in 2005 to 2008 when Jeanette Fitzsimons and I were looking at these issues\u2014we considered giving the whole thing over to TradeMe. TradeMe were willing to set up a secondary platform which sits behind their main market platform but uses the same technology. They could very, very simply run a scheme, so long as the scheme is simple to run. And that\u2019s why, if you set an average that\u2019s declining over time and have simple rules and not too many classes of vehicle, you will find that the industry can do that through a platform that encourages trading between themselves as well as averaging within their own fleet in a way that would minimise the costs to the\u00A0country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d03cfd4a08d14f93b679f21a47480298\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d03cfd4a08d14f93b679f21a47480298\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank members for their questions. The question in relation to the type A and type B vehicles is defined in section 172 of the Land Transport Act\u2014it can be declared by regulations, and is unchanged in this bill. In relation to the question around the discount rate; I mean, this is ultimately simply around the cost recovery. This particular clause is talking about the cost recovery, not the wider legislative place in terms of where this sits. We have made it clear in previous answers to previous questions that we\u2019re not changing where the operation of this sits\u2014those were determined by the previous Government. But the third question is an interesting point in terms of outsourcing it, effectively, to the sector. It\u2019s not something we had considered, but I always remain with an open mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00228aa69adf911b4e0391c50f555a1aa045\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aa69adf911b4e0391c50f555a1aa045\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Good to hear the Minister of Transport always has an open mind, because we\u2019ve still got a lot to get through, and I think he might, you know, continue to do that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMinister, I want to move to the reality that if a Minister was to create regulations under this provision\u2014and thank you for also clarifying the suitability or not of paragraphs (a), (aa), and (h) of section 168 of the primary legislation. But if the Minister is to go on a process of basically putting regulations in place, there is a requirement for the Minister to consult with such persons as the Minister considers appropriate. So what I think would be really interesting to hear from you, Minister, is: what would guide you in determining who you would consider as appropriate, or what would guide new Ministers in the future as to who would be appropriate? Because one of the common themes as this bill is progressing through the Parliament over the last day or so has been around the fact that we understand that you have undertaken consultation in bringing this bill to the House. We have yet to hear, from you, in this Chamber, who the specific industry participants were, around consultation, even though that has been raised with you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI think there are two things here. One is the opportunity to confirm the nature of the consultation that you\u2019ve had in bringing to the House this particular provision to create regulations. The other is how the Minister expects to go about consulting prior to making regulations\u2014which I think is actually a sensible thing, if we are to have regulations, that there is some form of consultation. But it\u2019s even more important when those sorts of decisions and considerations are taken whilst the House is under urgency, but also whilst there is no select committee process. I know that other members have referred to this, about the lack of a select committee process. I am certain that if this was in front of a select committee\u2014well, I know that if this was in front of a select committee, there would be industry participants, there would be others from all around the country, who would submit about who they consider might be appropriate for the Minister to consult with in the process of making regulations. I know that for a fact because some of those industry participants have been in touch with members of this House to indicate that they feel aggrieved that they haven\u2019t been part of this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI think there is a responsibility on the Minister to identify who he would consider as appropriate participants. They don\u2019t need to be identified specifically in the primary legislation\u2014I\u2019m certainly not seeking that. But what I am seeking is some understanding and some context around who those industry participants\u2014or maybe they\u2019re not within the industry. Maybe it could be that the Minister opens up\u2014it might be a little bit unwise\u2014a broad invitation to anyone. I don\u2019t think that would really meet the purposes of having regulations\u2014to ensure that there is some expediency around that. But I would like to hear from the Minister who he would consult with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne of the questions that has been put to the Minister throughout this whole process is: has he consulted with environmental groups? The primary purpose of the Land Transport Act, in terms of this section that we\u2019ve touched on previously, is around the reduction of emissions. We can still talk about whether this bill is the appropriate place or not. But, actually, I think it would mitigate some of the concerns that have been raised, if the Minister was able to identify exactly who it is that he has consulted with in terms of bringing this to the Parliament. But also, if he was the Minister who was going to be executing or making these regulations under this Act, if it is passed, who would he consider as appropriate to, effectively, get on the phone to or to allow for a process to seek their feedback before he embarks upon issuing those regulations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c14ffd9118bf49538d6bd904b9eac664\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c14ffd9118bf49538d6bd904b9eac664\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, my view is that the consultation aspect has been well canvassed and the Minister has addressed them, so I am looking for new material about the substance in this particular clause. I call the Hon Julie Anne\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cad5ca8d2ba04bfebfbe3b28757749f5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014Madam Chair, my apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d847155d52b4310a5ee5ced0dda73c5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a9104b7fb348a183d512c827893470\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, I just seek your guidance on that because I am not aware of any response from the Minister to date in committee\u2014not once has the Minister referred to any individual, any industry participant or organisation that he has actually consulted. So you\u2019ve made the determination that that has been canvassed. I would encourage you to reflect on the Hansard, but I am not aware of a single response from the Minister to date\u2014and I have been here for the huge majority of the time that the Minister has been in here. I know there was a different Minister in the chair for a period\u2014that Minister did not take any calls to provide any responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022341b3d360ceb4f009b2a449d11d0d72b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Understood, and the point of order is noted. Thank you, Mr Utikere. The questions about consultation have become repetitive, and I\u2019ve noted that in the documentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244cd03ee384c4ddba2e2966879e26671\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203abdf9d48ef4867b0a38313061d077b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a different point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5c2f7ee8b3a4a7e855c4969eb9bdd08\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s about how repetitive nature would apply in this context. Speakers\u2019 rulings are very clear around the requirement for a Minister to address a question. If a matter has been raised by members under urgency, yet that matter has not been addressed or answered or addressed, how can that surely be repetitive? All the Minister needs to do is stand up and say, \u201CI\u2019ve consulted with X, Y, Z.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221621a767bb41450288019d0d408f5a18\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand. We\u2019re going to move on now\u2014I\u2019m going to call the Hon Julie Anne Genter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a4f3b08f2d54d1aae810b88201322ae\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, sorry, but, Madam Chair, are you indicating that consultation has been addressed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7b96bfb3feb41d888d6ac3487076503\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not my role to referee\u2014if the questions are being asked and not answered, that is up to the Minister. But the questions have been asked; it was one of the first questions, when I took over the Chair, that was raised\u2014it\u2019s been raised several times. I\u2019m simply indicating to members it\u2019s becoming repetitive, I\u2019m looking for new material in the body of this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c961ff5668e447fa9b2f3e12e6670f1b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I accept what you\u2019ve just said there. The issue, however, though, is, are you now saying that if members under urgency are posing questions to the Minister and the Minister refuses to address the questions, that members of this House are no longer able to ask those questions? Because that would be quite a deviation as to how Standing Orders have been interpreted up to this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225fac9fa5a8c4207bcc30c1977c8fb47\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the member\u2019s frustration. I could invite the Minister\u2014I\u2019ve already called the Hon Julie Anne Genter. I could invite the Minister to address the question\u2014I cannot make him answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6c04380ec3a4db8ace6a92c78bb3c7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6c04380ec3a4db8ace6a92c78bb3c7f\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Because clause 5 is about the cost recovery scheme, and we\u2019ve got the cost recovery impact\u00A0statement, I wanted to ask the Minister of Transport a couple of questions. Obviously at the\u00A0end of that statement, it says that they have not been able to consult with the industry on the effects of the proposal, that there are questions they would need feedback from industry on, like, \u201CWhat administration cost would industry incur as a result of the proposal?\u201D, \u201CWhat method of recovery would have the least impact on industry?\u201D, and \u201CWould the proposal have disproportionate effects on smaller importers?\u201D That was kind of my question, because it says in the statement that the Minister\u2019s preferred option is a per-car fee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ECan the Minister speak to how he feels that is fair\u2014if, for example, there are importers of lower-value cars, they are going to have to pay a higher percentage of the cost recovery relative to the vehicles they\u2019re selling, as, you know, it\u2019s a higher percentage as a price of the vehicle and perhaps the number of vehicles they\u2019re importing relative to those who import small numbers of very expensive cars. So if we have importers who are importing large numbers of relatively inexpensive cars, particular second-hand vehicles, if we go with the preferred option of a per-car fee, then they will pay more, relative to speciality importers of brand new, very expensive vehicles. I\u2019m just wondering, if the Minister could let us know: is there any chance that he will opt for a different option, what will the consultation look like after this bill is passed in the design of the cost recovery scheme to ensure that it is fair, that it\u2019s not having a disproportionate impact on some importers relative to others? Yeah, I\u2019d invite the Minister to speak to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4cd441abae24d1e9597cf52ec00536c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4cd441abae24d1e9597cf52ec00536c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for the questions. In regard to the issue of consultations, of course there are two different issues in relation to it. One is that this clause is relating to cost recovery. There are standard consultation processes in place in relation to the consultation for setting regulations, and it is intended that those processes will be under way. There is a 12-month period for those regulations to then come into force, so there\u2019s plenty of time for that to happen. And, of course\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249c8f590f60943b0bf205d90a50bec31\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: With who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022044b9cd39cba487eaa0fb8265c253cc8\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a good question and I intend to consult with people who import vehicles\u2014is the intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo the second question is in relation to some of the issues around cost recovery. We\u2019ve had a large number of questions around cost recovery. There are lots of different ways in which cost recovery can be done. Of course, this is an empowering provision which allows for a model to be put forward and for cost recovery then to be made of the cost of running the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5fbcfcfa287446290453b5699cfc9ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5fbcfcfa287446290453b5699cfc9ee\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228726f0a4b0b645edb7148dbd0434927e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228726f0a4b0b645edb7148dbd0434927e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually just have two short questions for the Minister of Transport on this, and the first one is on new subsection 167BA(3), inserted by clause 5, which is talking about \u201CDifferent rates of fees or charges, or both,\u201D. So the first question for the Minister is: in the cost recovery impact statement, it talks about fees but not necessarily charges, and I wanted to get some clarification from the Minister to provide an example of what those fees or charge could look like or both\u2014particularly the \u201Cor both\u201D bit\u2014and whether that is something that has been considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second part is actually around new section 167BB, inserted by clause 5, which is around \u201DRegulations relating to power of Registrar and Director if fee or charge unpaid\u201D. This particular part, particularly new subsection (1), talks about \u201Cto decline to process a person\u2019s registration application\u201D. So, essentially, what we\u2019re looking at is sort of like if you don\u2019t pay, you don\u2019t get the good or a small sanction-type thing. I wanted to kind of get a sense from the Minister, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying: in this context, what does that look like and what sort of options have been made available to the Minister in putting this subsection together, looking at some of the process around this? If there is a declination of this particular process for registration, is there a duration of the pay and then they get the vehicle? So, yeah, I think that level of process-based questions around 167BB will be really, really helpful in clarifying and having on the Hansard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAnd just a reminder, the first question is: what does the \u201Cor both\u201D in terms of both fees and charges in subsection 167BA(3) potentially look like? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c50310a098654d1eac7e09294230096b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c50310a098654d1eac7e09294230096b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Chair. The questions all relate to the point that this is an empowering provision which allows for regulations to be set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022db76b88fa5964b98b1735d462034bfa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db76b88fa5964b98b1735d462034bfa3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a short call from me and also related to new subsection 167BA(3) in clause 5. At the end of that sentence, it says, \u201Cor on any other differential basis.\u201D, and this phrase\u2014or the whole phrase\u2014is also found in the primary legislation in section 167B(3), \u201Cor on any other differential basis.\u201D, and also found in section 168(2). But I\u2019m wondering what it is that the Minister is thinking might be a \u201Cdifferential basis\u201D, given that this has to apply to persons that are either a vehicle importer and an applicant for registration of a type A or type B vehicle\u2014and those are, of course, defined in section 172 of the Land Transport Act that I was talking about earlier, and these are light vehicles. A differential basis: is there some thinking about what it might be\u2014say, an individual importing a car from Japan themselves versus those vehicle importers, rather than an applicant, with the difference between that. And, in subsection (2)\u2014I think it would be very useful for the Hansard if the Minister could comment on what he is considering a differential basis might be in the context of that subsection. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00228ebd58874cde499ab0c69e6b2356f194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ebd58874cde499ab0c69e6b2356f194\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00224ee79fd070da49e081899bab93b9af09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ee79fd070da49e081899bab93b9af09\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m getting close to accepting a closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002226e211226c8849b589ef549edd0f0893\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226e211226c8849b589ef549edd0f0893\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister of Transport for providing a response to the consultation question. I think that is very unfortunate that he has adopted a very narrow approach to this. This is the first time in this House, while this bill has been progressed, that we have heard from his own mouth that, basically, the only people that are going to be consulted as part of any of this process are importers themselves. There is a much wider scope of industry participants who perhaps would\u2019ve liked to have had an opportunity\u2014not just for this bill but to be considered. The Minister has confirmed for the committee that the only people who are going to be considered on his watch when it comes to setting regulations are importers themselves\u2014no one else. That is shameful and that\u2019s pretty unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to\u2014actually, thank you, Dr Xu-Nan, for identifying new section 167BB, inserted by clause 5, because I had a question about that as well, and I hope the Minister is able to address it. Minister, your response said, \u201CWell, this is an empowering provision.\u201D Well, yes, it is, but it\u2019s also giving an empowering provision to the registrar or the director to undertake a particular course of action. I think, in fairness, Dr Xu-Nan has identified that as an issue, and you still have not addressed his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question is slightly different to my Green colleague, and that is\u2014it refers to the fact that the registrar or the director could actually, if the regulations are authorised through Order in Council, decline to process a person\u2019s registration application until the person has paid a specified fee or charge that they\u2019re liable for. Now, my question is: is the registrar or director only able to decline registrations for application purely on the basis of the fee not being paid or met, because it seems as though that\u2019s what that refers to in that particular new subsection (1), or will there be other grounds for the registrar or the director to decline an application?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very narrow area that I invite the Minister to respond to and address, and it is around that empowering provision\u2014yes, I get that, but does it limit the registrar or the director to only decline a registration application? The Minister seems very familiar with importers, it seems, at the moment. If they make an application under the system\u2014I get that regulations may be made under this clause to allow the registrar or the director to, basically, reject or decline the application, but is it correct, Minister, that they could only do so on the basis that the fee is not being made; there is no other way in which, under this provision, a rejection may exist or may follow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002200adc75ca951419bb99c16bd460e768b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200adc75ca951419bb99c16bd460e768b\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00224fe40996c59a4eda96471271365c53b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fe40996c59a4eda96471271365c53b1\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just looking at, and continuing on, some of these spaces, but I\u2019ve got a slightly different angle, and I may be wrong here but I\u2019m willing to be corrected by the Minister\u2014just looking at, obviously clause 5, new section 167BB(2), the type A vehicle or type B vehicle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, I know that the Minister was at Fieldays recently and unveiled the new electric ute. The thing I\u2019m just trying to understand with the type A and type B vehicles\u2014again, I may be out of scope here, but I\u2019m just trying to get a bit of understanding\u2014is that they\u2019re fully electric; they\u2019ve also got diesel. But they also are more than just a vehicle; they\u2019re actually a generator. They\u2019re something that can be used around the farm or for tradies\u2014that type of thing. And so is there any clarification needed when we talk about the type A and type B vehicles, with, I guess, the change in vehicle usage, the change in technology, and the nature of what a vehicle actually is now? I\u2019m just trying to sort of get some clarification in terms of whether that creates any challenges or whether anything should be considered when looking at this part of clause 5. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAgain, I\u2019m sure that the Minister was super excited to be there and to see technology at its best and to be moving forward. But when we talk about vehicles nowadays, it\u2019s a generator. It\u2019s more than just a type A or type B vehicle. I wasn\u2019t there when you visited the ute, but I did go and see the ute afterwards, but it did raise some questions for me just to figure out what that could look like. So the type A, type B vehicles\u2014yeah, is that purely just a vehicle for transportation or is it now becoming more than that? That\u2019s not only an office; it\u2019s a generator; it\u2019s many, many other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221da696eeb65f4669b47a5f081ac7343b\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Where would the line be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2dcf46746844161ac7b94e4776013f6\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, where is the line? What does that look like? So if the Minister has any thoughts on that. Again, I\u2019d really appreciate it if I have missed something here\u2014I\u2019m really happy to understand that. But, firstly, I think it\u2019s exciting to read some of the articles about BYD\u2014it\u2019s BYD, the company that imports them now, isn\u2019t it? I\u2019m just really, really keen to understand that, and if the Minister would like to inform me, I\u2019d appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00226099de233ce64ac5b5c98013626b4b2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226099de233ce64ac5b5c98013626b4b2a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We still wait for a response from the Minister of Transport around those specific questions that have been posed around new section 167BB(1), inserted by clause 5, and I really do think that is important, because it might be actually that there is a bit of a gap that has been highlighted. If the Minister can confirm that the only basis upon which the registrar or the director could basically decline the registration application was purely because of a lack of a fee being paid or whether it was a partial fee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI mean, last night in the House, the Minister referenced that we\u2019re talking about a very small amount of money. He talked about it being only between $5 and $20. All of that adds up. I mean, he has himself cited what that adds up to in terms of the overall budget lines for this. So it would be quite helpful, for the benefit of the committee, if the Minister was able to identify that. But the point I was trying to make is: if this was, in fact, the only way in which an application could be declined, is the Minister aware of any other processes that might interplay with this? So, for example, if there is information that comes to the attention of the director or the registrar that is not purely related to the fee component but something else, perhaps, I think that would be quite helpful for the Minister to be aware of as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to just also refer to the Amendment Papers that are in my name, because the Minister did very kindly say, at the start of this process, basically: \u201CNo, no, no, no, no, not gonna support any of those.\u201D We\u2019ve had a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b1ccdddc234460b956388ef1ff3dceb\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I gave reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273643fe7f4d94c92bb6a27f954333642\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: You did give reasons for that. However, you also said, Minister, that you have an open mind and we\u2019ve had quite an opportunity from yesterday to talk about these sorts of things. So I want to just briefly go through those, because it is important none the less. But before I do that, I\u2019ve noted the Minister\u2019s reference around who he would consult with and he tells us that it\u2019s just importers, basically. So I know, for example, I\u2019ve certainly received feedback as recently as this morning\u2014someone says that they see this as a lack of consultation over the bill and that there are shifting market conditions, all of these sorts of things. Now, I hope that the Minister perhaps would think again around some of this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis one here I quite like; I think it\u2019s quite apt. It refers to handpicked allies that the Minister might only be consulting with. I think that is very detrimental to the process if he\u2019s only going to handpick the people who he might want to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cee0f3cac924d7bb6733019a66e4d65\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Speculation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a31819476d948cb98c68b0de2e7c2d7\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, \u201CSpeculation\u201D, right? So we hear that it\u2019s speculation. We haven\u2019t actually heard anything else from the Minister except to say it\u2019s only going to be importers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a8098f180b349458b402e08692b4ac9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Excellent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade92e205b194bfab908f10841256817\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Is that correct, Minister? It\u2019s only going to be importers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc7ab19104a4acf80ae74a956ad0c2e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re saying \u201Cexcellent\u201D on that side of the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9e945a7e6e34e379899305d667347b8\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Right. So we hear, then, that it\u2019s actually only going to be importers and that\u2019s it. Well, the Minister has an open mind; we might hear something different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, I just want to look to those Amendment Papers that are in my name. Amendment Paper 42, clause 5\u2014this is seeking to: \u201Creplace \u2018prescribing, or providing for the fixing of,\u2019 \u2026 with \u2018reducing and limiting\u2019 \u201D. That actually ensures that there is kind of like\u2014what do you call it\u2014a sinking lid sort of approach that we continue over time, and we\u2019ll get to this a little bit further, but it has been accepted as clause 5, so I hope the Minister might consider that; he might change his view with his open mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAmendment Paper 43 refers to replacing \u201Cservices\u201D with \u201Cback-office administration\u201D. The Minister had referred that he wasn\u2019t into supporting that particular amendment. I don\u2019t know whether he has changed. I know his Government have a particular view about back-office administration that they seem to make clear from time to time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAmendment Paper 44\u2014so this again\u2014no, I\u2019ll tell you what, Minister. I\u2019ll concede that you\u2019re probably accurate on that one in terms of your response. I\u2019ve suggested replacing \u201CCrown\u201D there with \u201CAgency\u201D, but you\u2019ve answered that previously and it might be that I\u2019m prepared to maybe just resile from that particular Amendment Paper, given the Minister has, I think, actually adequately answered or addressed that particular question. So I don\u2019t have an issue with us, effectively, not\u2014that\u2019s number 44.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAmendment Paper 45 actually inserts a new section 167BA(1), and this is actually making sure that prior to the exercise of any of these regulations, that those sorts of factors are considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo I wonder whether the Minister might particularly actually address the concerns that have been raised by Dr Xu-Nan and myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002220ec772acc9d466db46721bbfff8a60c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220ec772acc9d466db46721bbfff8a60c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Many of those questions that members have raised I actually answered right at the start of the debate when I went through each of his tabled amendments, as he acknowledged, in relation to each of them, and gave reasons for why we\u2019re not supporting them. In relation to the member Glen Bennett in relation to type A, type B, those definitions are not being changed in this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c136c88fe9db4cf8856d1ba8d52bc161\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c136c88fe9db4cf8856d1ba8d52bc161\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002253737ca4e6174454a0135f6c763cc722\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002298b75bb312cf48eb949030f33d14ad6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298b75bb312cf48eb949030f33d14ad6b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 5, new section 167BA(1), set out on Amendment Paper 42 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002276a0c463240a432da7dffced7e2d380e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3b02e069af34a6f8c798051b5b0ef6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3b02e069af34a6f8c798051b5b0ef6c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 5, new section 167BA(1), set out on Amendment Paper 43 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b5a840b52b74426bbed270f0ef019c1d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002279f458f940064df1bdb53e07f2d75d5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279f458f940064df1bdb53e07f2d75d5d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 167BA(1A), set out on Amendment Paper 45 be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f97878781c3d4cf5af368ee195ceb5b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002211af51deb0fa478a8c61e68d127eab5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211af51deb0fa478a8c61e68d127eab5a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 167BA(4)(ba), set out on Amendment Paper 46 be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228929af89e60e43b3a2b0c1decbbc477f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224669798eb995421ebd3a243de7894666\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224669798eb995421ebd3a243de7894666\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 5, new section 167BA(4)(c), set out on Amendment Paper 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d0926280677240829b14c8beec389c9b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002260d46942a3bb49ecbd24a46c4889167f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260d46942a3bb49ecbd24a46c4889167f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 to replace \u201Cfor the purpose of prescribing, or providing for the fixing of,\u201D is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause\u00A05 to replace \u201Cservices\u201D is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 to replace \u201CCrown\u201D with \u201CDirector\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229a2a5862c80740fc9e31898145702215\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002244cbcbe5c04c459993e968ab6acedf74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244cbcbe5c04c459993e968ab6acedf74\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 to delete new section 167BA(5) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002241b948d244934a63acce86ef8a9fff35\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225ccd0a5c940746e890bba026e7dfd4e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ccd0a5c940746e890bba026e7dfd4e1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 to delete new section 167BA(6) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ec31a87d531642c2992a68600cb60808\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe1ba1a4828d4feba5f9cd61d7e8ed49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe1ba1a4828d4feba5f9cd61d7e8ed49\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause\u00A05H inserting new section 167BAB is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225dd0c87c9c6e4d60a655b0fea2d8b348\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000388\u0022\u003EClause 5 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002248621079777646dab4664ffa7a001276\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248621079777646dab4664ffa7a001276\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clauses 5F and 5G should properly be located after clause 6, so we will address them at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022723146a81bdc468aa597513b509c88fe\u0022\u003EClause 6  Section 167C amended (Regulations for purposes of Part 13 (clean vehicle standard))\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226b4b50fff8254371b16bc533dc72a1bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b4b50fff8254371b16bc533dc72a1bd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the debate on clause\u00A06. Members, please note that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment inserting a new clause 5E amending section 167C should properly be an amendment to clause 6, so it will be considered as part of this debate. This is the debate on clause 6, \u201CSection 167C amended (Regulations for purposes of Part 13 (clean vehicle standard))\u201D. The question is that clause\u00A06 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00225b7666cbd3db4f0eb55af2961d40325b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b7666cbd3db4f0eb55af2961d40325b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is a significant clause within the wider scheme of the bill, and it, basically, relates to removing \u201C2027\u201D and replacing it with \u201C2024\u201D. Now, that might seem very simplistic in terms of what is on the page, but the implications of that are significant in terms of the points that need to be traversed this afternoon in the Parliament, because, basically, in essence, what this is doing is it\u2019s saying regulations that were already going to be permissive under the Act are going to actually be brought forward. So, as it stands in law currently, regulations for the setting of emissions targets for these vehicles would have kicked in from 2027. This proposal is to scrap that and to bring the date back into 2024 so that for the coming year these targets could be set by regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, I ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Erica Stanford, please\u2014and she may want to seek some advice around this. I note that the regulatory impact assessment indicates on page 6\u2014we\u2019re on a new clause\u2014a reference around the source not being found. It\u2019s the final paragraph there. It starts with \u201CError! Reference source not found.\u201D So, Minister, the committee would be grateful if you were able to perhaps seek some advice and provide a response around that\u2014specifically, why that is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also really interesting that within that paper\u2014and this reference there is earlier on\u2014it talks about \u201CCalculation will require in depth consultation with the sector\u201D. The Minister of Transport has already identified that he believes the only form of consultation that needs to take place is with importers. It\u2019s really interesting, though, that everyone, including importers and those outside of importers, will need to live with the consequences of this particular decision, and surely, Minister, there should be an opportunity to engage, as part of the process of consultation, with others outside of the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested in hearing from the Minister what evidence they have seen regarding the health benefits of the standard and the implication that any changes will bring\u2014in particular, this change. So this is, basically, saying that we\u2019re going to rewire and wind back three years\u2014as an envelope of time\u2014when the regulatory powers could kick in. We\u2019ll talk specifically about the targets in the next call, so I won\u2019t go there, but I am interested in hearing from the Minister what evidence is the Minister and the Government relying on in bringing this back earlier by three years, given that the targets as they currently stand are set in legislation, and we on this side of the Chamber are still sort of puzzled as to why you would change that. You already have a process kicked in. It might be because the only people that were able to be consulted prior to this point and the only ones that will be consulted in the future are going to be the ones that are going to benefit, perhaps, by not having to have incentives to ensure what they are importing into the country are heavily favoured in the form of no- to low-emission vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo the question for the Minister is that I\u2019d be grateful, Minister, if you could clarify that error source issue that\u2019s currently in front of the committee, to clear that up. Secondly, just what evidence does the Government have regarding the health benefits of the standard and the implication of the changes\u2014in particular, around the wind back by three years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002208238546afe848848922411841c2c283\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208238546afe848848922411841c2c283\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am just a little interested in this section of the debate because clause 6 and clause 7 are, arguably, the most substantive parts of the committee stage of this bill, and I wonder whether or not we\u2019ll be able to get adequate answers, not having the Minister who is directly responsible in the chair. But I will go on and ask my questions, anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EClause 6 is the bit of the bill that is now enabling targets for carbon emissions from light vehicles imported annually to be prescribed by regulations for any calendar year. So that means within the next year\u20142025, which is only less than six months away\u2014the targets can change from what they have been for the last few years. Previously, the Minister for Transport had stated that this bill was about increasing certainty for the vehicle industry. He then subsequently answered my question to say, \u201CWell, once we can do this by regulation, we can make the targets more stringent or we can make them more permissive.\u201D The whole point is that within a year or two, we could have different targets and nobody knows what they will be and whether they will be higher or lower. How on earth is this introducing more certainty? This is creating uncertainty for everyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESecondly, just following on from the point that my colleague Tangi Utikere made, which is: is it the case that only vehicle importers will be consulted on any new targets for levels of carbon dioxide that are brought in under regulations, and, if so, how on earth could this be appropriate, given that this will have massive implications on New Zealand\u2019s overall carbon emissions and air quality? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThirdly, my question to the Minister is about whether there will be a full climate impact policy analysis done\u2014a CIPA\u2014on proposed changes to the standards for 2025, 2026, or 2027 before they are brought in through the regulatory-making powers. Will there be a full climate impact analysis, and will that be public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022336695ae3fc04800bfbb77d3af71431b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022336695ae3fc04800bfbb77d3af71431b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just indicate to members that at the moment I\u2019m aware that, obviously, the Minister in the chair will still be required to address those questions, and I\u2019ll be liberal in the timing of the Minister to take advice, if necessary, and the pace of the committee will be reflective of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec282a6d96c44cb6a588863eec40f20f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec282a6d96c44cb6a588863eec40f20f\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m good to go. Thank you, Mr Chair. Just in answer to the questions around the error source, that has been now fixed, and it says, \u201CTable 2\u201D. I just wanted to clarify for the member that that was just a formatting error. It has been fixed, and it says, \u201CTable 2\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI want to make it clear that we, as a Government, are committed to the Clean Car Standard, and the health benefits of that are obvious and you can find them anywhere. I mean, noxious fumes, clearly, are detrimental to human health, and the whole point of having a clean vehicle standard is to reduce those, which we are committed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI think the previous Government knew that there would always need to be some changes. We\u2019re just bringing that forward so that we can take a look at that now to make sure that we\u2019re getting the benefits of the clean vehicle standard: to make sure that importers are able to import the vehicles they need to meet the standards, as well as getting the reductions in emissions that we need for those obvious health benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022eac37a7e398443d1a195e01d71746928\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eac37a7e398443d1a195e01d71746928\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, can I thank you for that. I think you should just stay in the chair, because we\u2019ve spent nearly six or so hours asking just that one formatting question, and it seems the only response that we needed was that it\u2019s simply meant to say \u201CTable 2\u201D. Already, you have provided a direct response in a much shorter time, and so I thank you and encourage you to remain there. Transport might be your new calling perhaps. But can I just pick up on the issue around\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227030660b2ee1443f9de2deb56dc9184b\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chairperson. Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I just wanted to pick up on the comment you made before the Minister spoke, in which, if I heard correctly, you were suggesting that you would require the Minister to address questions. Now, that is a significant deviation, if that\u2019s what you said, sir, from the current process where Ministers indeed are not specifically required\u2014the Chair cannot require the Minister to answer questions. So I\u2019m interested in whether you are making a new ruling to that effect, or if I misheard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d30bded7fb264c28b92c93589873af3b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, you may have heard me say that of course there\u2019ll be an expectation that the Minister will address the questions. That remains the case, and I\u2019m sure that the member, having been on both sides of the House, would certainly understand why there would be such an expectation. But I thank you for helping me clarify that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242a3a5f4e5c043d395b630adc15e2942\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I guess one of the questions that I do have for the Minister is how will the Government seek to maintain the ambition that is evident in the current targets\u2014and we\u2019ll come to clause 7 later. But how can that sense of ambition be maintained if, effectively, the Government is winding back the date upon which it would make it easier to water down what the threshold is for those targets and for those standards? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe Minister has informed the committee that the Government is serious about the work in this space, but that doesn\u2019t really align with the ability to, carte blanche, with limited consultation\u2014and we\u2019ve heard previously from the Minister that in setting these regulations under his watch, the only people that will be consulted are vehicle importers, and that\u2019s it. Now, vehicle importers clearly have an incentive when it comes to perhaps looking at what are the best cost options for themselves. That is very easily the case to be to the detriment of, potentially, the environment. There\u2019s nothing in here as a stopgap measure in terms of the timing of this to suggest anything otherwise, so I am interested in hearing from the Minister a response around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other one is that previously, we referred to the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, an Officer of Parliament. The committee is extremely familiar with the contents of that letter now, but it was suggested, I think, from the Minister in the chair that the concerns that had been identified in the commissioner\u2019s letter were more appropriately targeted towards clause 6\u2014which we are at, at the moment\u2014and it comes to timing. So my question there perhaps is for the Minister, around a response to the suggested amendment from the commissioner, and, in fairness to the Minister, it may require a wee while to come back on a response to that, because this was traversed in previous parts. But it was also, essentially, signalled to be parked for the latter clauses. It relates to the suggestion from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment to make a minor amendment to the drafting of section 175A(1) of the principle Act so that it actually allows for the time frame to be set not later than 30 June 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat this is currently suggesting is the date would kick in from 2024; what the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment is seeking is an amendment\u2014which I think is quite significant, given that the commissioner has sought to make this particular view known. If this was at select committee, the commissioner would have no doubt submitted and would have made this point known to members of the committee. There would have been advice received on that. So my question to the Minister is: what is the Government\u2019s view of the specific request from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment to, effectively, have the date as not later than 30\u00A0June\u00A02025, rather than sticking with, as currently proposed, a blanket-year rule of 2024? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002245fb04e3d4e4444fb2f5cc2cadf04aec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245fb04e3d4e4444fb2f5cc2cadf04aec\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity, Mr Chair. My amendments for the Minister are about the dates that section 167C(1)(j)(iv) of the principle Act would apply from, and the reason I want to ask the Minister some questions about whether it should apply earlier is in relation to how, then, new section 167BB would come into effect\u2014so those are those Part 13 regulation-making powers that are being moved forward here, essentially, by clause 6. I would argue that the Minister has got the timing for those wrong because of the operation of section 167B. The timing in moving it forward is a problem because we don\u2019t have an explicit enough recommendation to the Minister when he considers what his decision-making power should be under the regulations to, essentially, ratchet up the requirements for the industry to continue to import cleaner and cleaner vehicles as technology changes around the world, and as our international agreements become more stringent and we get closer to those 2040 goals that we have signed up to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI had recommended for the Minister to consider an arrangement where, under section 167B, he was also directed to consider the imposition of regulations under that section, which are appropriate for considering our international and domestic climate change ambitions. But because we won\u2019t have that built into the legislation, to now move the regulation-making powers forward would then mean that he\u2019s got to consider, not only in subsequent years, what our international obligations are, but in this, currently, there is no direction for the industry on how the Government intends to meet those international obligations, and, indeed, there\u2019s no obligation for the Minister to even consider that when he makes his first round of decisions under the regulation-making powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think it would be more appropriate for the settings to be clear for the industry now, as they are, and then for us to be able to step out those further regulation-making powers later, because, again, we get to this point where, if everyone around this House wants certainty for the industry\u2014and the Government has been clear in other pieces of legislation and on an international stage, where the Prime Minister has recently made some remarks in this regard. New Zealand is still committed to our international obligations to reduce our emissions profile, and the transport fleet is an important part of that. So that is a really clear signal to the industry, and yet we don\u2019t have, then, primary provisions which are giving the industry some really clear targets for how their contribution to that will be judged. We end up in this position where we\u2019re sort of saying one thing on one side of our mouth and giving the industry another indication on the other, and so that\u2019s why I\u2019ve proposed two amendments. There\u2019s an option there for 2025 and there\u2019s an option there for 2026. The reason for that is for the Minister to consider whether it would be appropriate to give the industry certainty in that way by using the new provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAlso speaking to this point about the timing, the Hon Dr Megan Woods made some comments about the appropriateness of the timing for these regulation-making powers to come in, in her contribution on clause 2, I believe, of this bill. The Chair at that time, Barbara Kuriger, gave an indication to my colleague that there would be an opportunity for further debate on the timing provisions, particularly with regard to the regulation-making powers in this section, and so it would be useful if we could canvass with the Minister what the intention is here for the regulation-making powers. If they come into effect now, is there an intention to give the industry certainty over the next two years and three years, where, on the one hand, that certainty is being taken away by taking it out of the primary legislation? Those questions were raised by Megan Woods, then they were not answered by the Minister because he felt that it was more appropriately addressed later in the debate, and so here we are, at that point, but I haven\u2019t heard the Minister address that timing point yet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002285fc5d5a98d845aa964e17658ffd3bae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285fc5d5a98d845aa964e17658ffd3bae\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, just in response to Mr Utikere\u2019s questions earlier, we of course respect the comments of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2014a very knowledgeable man\u2014but it is our view that this review is important because these targets are very key to realising the standard\u2019s potential emissions and fuel savings. So we have to be able to strike a really good balance between being stringent enough so that we can accelerate the supply of low- and zero-emission vehicles, but not being too stringent so that those importers are then unable to source those vehicles at sufficient numbers and they then can\u2019t meet those affordable prices. So it\u2019s a balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re trying to do with bringing this date forward much earlier than everyone would like is to make sure that we strike that balance so that, actually, we\u2019re able to meet the targets that we need to meet. While I appreciate the views of both the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment and other members in the committee, it\u2019s our position that we need to bring that date forward so that we can give those importers as much certainty as they can possibly have so that they can bring in the vehicles in the numbers that we require so that we can meet the standards. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00222c52a673d92c41de9ef01e001168b5e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c52a673d92c41de9ef01e001168b5e5\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m sorry if I missed it, but I don\u2019t believe the Minister in the chair has addressed my question about whether a climate impact analysis will be undertaken of any new proposed standards for 2025, 2026, and 2027, and whether or not that will be public before those regulations and the new standards come into force. That\u2019s relevant to clause 6 because clause 6 is the part of the bill that is giving the Minister the power to set those standards for those three years under regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI appreciate the comments that the Minister has made about the importance of bringing in more low- and zero-emission vehicles into our fleet. I think at this point in the debate, it would be worth raising the concerns of a range of organisations like Drive Electric, Better New Zealand Trust, and some car importers, who have all expressed concern that their members support retaining the Clean Car Standard settings. They have not had the opportunity to provide those views. Because there was no select committee process on this bill, they have not been able to come and talk to this Parliament about why those standards were appropriate. They\u2019re concerned that giving the power to the Minister to change standards undermines the certainty of direction for the industry. So, rather than providing more certainty, there are a range of people in the industry saying that this creates more uncertainty because we don\u2019t know what the direction of travel will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe don\u2019t know what the standards will be 2025, 2026, or 2027, and any changes to the standards have broad economic implications. They will have an impact on electric vehicle uptake, on emissions from transport, and on ongoing imports of petrol and diesel\u2014which costs the economy and affect the current account deficit\u2014and future liability to buy offshore carbon credits. It will also, potentially, impact our EU free-trade agreement because that trade agreement has in it an expectation that New Zealand will be making progress towards its emissions reduction targets, and this is one of the key levers that we can use to achieve those targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESince the removal of the Clean Car Discount, the average emissions of newly registered light vehicles in the first five months of 2024 have increased back up to 161 grams per kilometre, on average. Now, that\u2019s up from 136 grams per kilometre last year. Before we brought in the Clean Car Standard and the Clean Car Discount, we were trailing the world. We had some of the most inefficient vehicles coming in, and it wasn\u2019t second-hand vehicles, because we import our second-hand vehicles from Japan, a country that has standards that are far more ambitious than what\u2014New Zealand had zero fuel-economy standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EClause 6 of the bill is what gives the Government and the Minister the possibility of setting new standards in regulation, rather than coming to the House\u2014as is what happened previously, and it had a proper select committee process. So the reality is that the axing of the Clean Car Discount has led to a rebound. We\u2019re importing more high-emissions vehicles. Our average emissions in the fleet\u2014this isn\u2019t just about electric vehicles; it\u2019s about the average emissions from new cars coming into New Zealand, and it\u2019s predominantly the brand new, large SUVs and double-cab utes and gas guzzlers that are driving the high emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EHowever, the standard and the discount were able to address that so that we would get lower-emission versions of a given vehicle in a given class. So the research before we brought this in showed that there were double-cab utes available in the UK that were lower-emission than what was available\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bf1ed9507ec40b6a617ab51a55e86ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Genter, the opportunity to talk about targets comes in the next clause. I can understand you\u2019re giving some context to this, but it\u2019s relatively narrow and on the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c511649828d34a4882c6f6b86810c074\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would really appreciate it if the Minister could address the question on what is going to happen with the climate impact analysis of any new regulations. Given that there\u2019s been no select committee process, I think that it was important to state the concerns of people in the industry like Drive Electric, Better New Zealand Trust, and some of the other car importers who have expressed these concerns about this change being brought through, about it undermining certainty of direction for the industry, and about it having broader implications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe want to understand\u2014well, basically, this point just needs to be made in the Hansard because we\u2019re not having a proper select committee process, and we\u2019re only hearing from the Government that somehow they\u2019re giving certainty to the industry. It\u2019s unclear how that could be the case, other than they\u2019re giving certainty to those who want to continue bringing in high-emitting vehicles, and that will have broad economic implications for New Zealand and cost to us in the long run. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff4f3e9f50894911aae447d46fc56403\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff4f3e9f50894911aae447d46fc56403\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m happy to address the question that was raised by the member the Hon Julie Anne Genter, and I apologise that I didn\u2019t already do it because I was chatting with officials during her last speech. But I\u2019m happy to answer the questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ERegarding the climate impact analysis, there will be one. There will be a regulatory impact statement, and that will be done to inform the Government\u2019s decisions on the targets set by regulations. So that will be done. But more broadly around the question of certainty for the sector, the feedback that we have had is that the sector is calling for this certainty. They\u2019re calling for us to set these regulations, and there is broad agreement that that will bring certainty to the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ELook, I think the other point to note is that this was always going to happen eventually. The previous Government realised that this would have to happen at some stage; we\u2019re just bringing it forward to ensure that the sector is getting the certainty they need so that they also have that forward-planning ability to bring in the vehicles that they need so that they can help us to meet the common goal that I think we all have of reducing emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee63ad499a1f4d6eaebdc682701f6d5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee63ad499a1f4d6eaebdc682701f6d5b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Erica Stanford, for providing responses to my questions.  I think it\u2019s interesting that the Minister says that this is providing certainty to the industry. Actually, it\u2019s the opposite, I would suggest, because what currently exists in terms of certainty are that the targets are set down in the legislation through to\u2014well, for the purposes of this, and regulations don\u2019t kick in until post-2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s response there, because I would have thought that, actually, what was more certain was that at the moment, anyone, including importers, could go and have a look and they could see exactly what it is that the targets are for this year\u2014currently, that\u2019s done\u2014for next year, the year that follows, then the year that follows, and then regulations would be kicked in. So it seems counterintuitive to suggest that this act of bringing back regulation-making powers much sooner, which is what this clause does, where the Minister, in exercising those regulation making-powers, would only consult with the industry and no one else\u2014how is that providing certainty when it\u2019s still unknown what those targets might be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e21db4094e42e7b2d5c79033415fb4\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: No, she\u2019s keen on my amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa7192a190b0445ca88902889a6ba7db\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s good to hear. So I\u2019m a bit perplexed around that, because the certainty to me would be much clearer as it\u2019s specified, as it is, in legislation. You can look up the date for the next three years and you can see exactly what the target limits are. This clause seeks to, basically, rule a line through those and basically say that, well, it\u2019s over to the Minister, and provided that he consults with the industry, his approach seems to be unfettered in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do have a couple of Amendment Papers in my name here\u2014they\u2019re Amendment Papers 42 and 44\u2014and so I\u2019d be obliged if the Minister was able to provide a response. I think it might be that it\u2019s not one of supporting those amendments in relation to clause 6\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202997d76f43d4a67839e18b6024b4f44\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, give it a go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b7bed81d594e88a4cf3299a03a3dc5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but you never know. You never know, Minister. Amendment Paper 42 seeks to replace \u201C2024\u201D with \u201C2028\u201D in clause 6. I don\u2019t think we need to be a rocket scientist to, basically, work out that what that would mean is that the regulations would kick in as they would be post-2027. So I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts, even if it was a fleeting opportunity around that. The other is on Amendment Paper 44, which seeks to, basically, delete clause 6 in its entirety\u2014lines 10 through to 12. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI am encouraged to hear that the Minister has referenced that the Government takes the views of this Officer of Parliament, who has made his views known, seriously. It is disappointing, though, that it seems that dismissing the Rt Hon Simon Upton\u2019s suggestions to try and make this a little bit more workable is going to perhaps be the outcome or the position that the Government have subscribed themselves to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMinister, I do have a question that relates to the implications around the date change.\u00A0New Zealand has obligations, as they stand currently, to meet targets and the expectations of the emissions reduction plans two and three. Has there been specific advice around the\u00A0rolling back of the date and, therefore, the specified targets in legislation, and what implication, if any, that would have in terms of our approach to the emissions reduction plan? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI think that is important because that\u2019s an overarching consideration, and this clause specifically enables regulations to meddle with that. So I\u2019d be interested to hear whether there has been any advice that\u2019s been either sought or provided around that, and, if so, it might be that, yes, the advice has been received and sought, but we still believe that the roll-back date is still in order\u2014but I\u2019ll leave my questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00223e739599420e476b9abf72fd14e65ead\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e739599420e476b9abf72fd14e65ead\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00228704293b68394af3989adaace6196606\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228704293b68394af3989adaace6196606\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. A brand new line of questions for the Minister about the carbon dioxide accounts and, if the Minister retains the date as proposed by the Hon Simeon Brown, whether the carbon dioxide accounts are, essentially, ready to go. These were questions that I raised with the Minister earlier in this debate, and I was also told by the Chair at the time, Barbara Kuriger, that the appropriate time to ask those questions would be later in the day. So I\u2019m dutifully doing that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe carbon dioxide accounts\u2014just to explain this\u2014are provided for under Part 13 of the Land Transport Act. It\u2019s section 167C, and the provisions that empower those are set out at subsection (1)(s) of that section. Those carbon dioxide accounts have currently been set up under the Minister\u2019s primary legislative powers, which provide for the carbon dioxide accounts to, essentially, back a system which allows importers to trade credits between the low-emitting vehicles, like a small electric vehicle (EV) that Toyota might import, and use it to import other higher-emitting vehicles, like a Toyota Hilux. Toyota have one of these accounts and it\u2019s massively in credit because they\u2019re so good at importing small, light EVs that actually offset things like their Hilux offerings. That\u2019s great\u2014it\u2019s a system that\u2019s working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ve heard from my colleague the Hon David Parker that there are some policy choices that have been made in that situation. For example, he raised a question with the Minister, which wasn\u2019t answered, about whether it was the correct policy of the Government to allow trading in those accounts\u2014say, for example, what\u2019s been reported on in the media where Toyota opined that it might be able to use the credits which it has built up, because its profile of the vehicles which it imports are better than the current settings, and that might be able to support those importers of small vehicles which are emitters, because those aren\u2019t treated like a Hilux. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019ve got something like a Suzuki Swift, which is small and its weight class doesn\u2019t push it into the category where it would be able to emit more, then it\u2019s sort of a product which is not doing so well out of the system as it\u2019s currently designed. There\u2019s a policy choice there, which the Minister is open to make, and if she\u2019s not open to my amendment which would push the date out further, then she needs to give us some assurance that those carbon dioxide accounts, which exist now and which have been set up under the current policy settings of the Government, where a number of policy choices have been set out clearly in primary legislation\u2014whether the systems enabling those are ready for a Minister making regulations which are not available and which are not known now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is important for two participants in the system. One is the industry participants, because they hold these carbon dioxide accounts, but one is the ministry behind it, and we want to know whether the ministry system which it has built to allow for the administration of those carbon dioxide accounts is set up in such a way that it would be ready to deal with a new set of regulations from day one that made different sets of policy choices. The question there is: is it appropriate that it would apply from 2024\u2014that\u2019s this year\u2014to, essentially, create a system that is not based on any of the policy choices which have been made earlier? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI mean, these regulation powers in section 167C, which have otherwise been set by primary legislation but will now be set out in regulation-making powers, provide the choices like how minimum standards should be applied to the lightest cars and how the maximum standards should be applied to the heaviest cars. If we tweak those, then the carbon dioxide accounts\u2019 value changes, the way that they are tradable might change, and who holds them might change, and so we need to hear from the Minister about whether those systems are ready to go and whether she is confident that 2024 is the appropriate date, given the significant investment of the Government in that system, which backs the carbon dioxide accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2e93e708dc94da8b8a46294b528bb6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2e93e708dc94da8b8a46294b528bb6b\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002220ca297a8fee44d89fe9777192bce1c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220ca297a8fee44d89fe9777192bce1c3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve just got a very short contribution to make here. It is a question for the Minister, obviously, but it\u2019s one of clarification, and that is because what we\u2019re looking at here is a change in dates, and why that is is that at the moment, the primary legislation\u2014and what we will be talking about in the next part of the debate\u2014sets out some numbers and some targets. Then, the Act also says that regulations can be made\u2014they \u201Cmay\u201D be made\u2014from 2027. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a whole lot of this word \u201Cmay\u201D in the regulation in various sections of the primary legislation, including in section 167C. So when the Minister says that the Government is going to give more certainty to the importers, that makes it sounds like the Government must be making regulations, but my reading of the legislation is that the Government may be making regulations, and, of course, that is a very important difference because it means it\u2019s discretionary as to whether or not these regulations will be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EEarlier on, we had in the chair the Minister in whose name the bill is in, and he was saying that one of the two things that this bill does is to enable regulations\u2014so \u201Cenabling\u201D is the \u201Cmay\u201D. The certainty would come with a \u201Cmust\u201D. So is my interpretation correct that regulations \u201Cmay\u201D be promulgated and they \u201Cmay\u201D be enabled, but that\u2019s at the discretion of the Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5848190ca474564b607eecb032d2c9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5848190ca474564b607eecb032d2c9e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. Committee is suspended and will resume after oral questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12.57 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4e8c56616954e109fc764c8563d9982\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202f4710196d944c09be53b6893e44fc9\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00226ef7cf69964544f6b3fc53b826c35984\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ef7cf69964544f6b3fc53b826c35984\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the Leader of the House wishes to make a Business Statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00223aa5c3e0901043e0b13a95564ec4e07c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223aa5c3e0901043e0b13a95564ec4e07c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, indeed\u2014thank you, Mr Speaker. Today, the House will adjourn until Tuesday, 23 July. In that week, the House will consider the second reading of the Local Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill; the first readings of the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill, the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill, and the Customer and Product Data Bill. The House will also complete the remainder of the Budget debate. On Wednesday, following the general debate, the House will debate the final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022f81cefd1811f47929df1bfbf4e9a4d33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f81cefd1811f47929df1bfbf4e9a4d33\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Is the Government intending to take urgency on any of those bills, including the Customer and Product Data Bill, given recent statements by Ministers on the need to work on scams and fraud, and the ability of that bill to enhance protections for consumers from those scams and frauds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002251169f92a9c54c2aa0ac2720032a36d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251169f92a9c54c2aa0ac2720032a36d6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Well, ultimately, the question of urgency is a matter for the House. The Government doesn\u2019t have any intention at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222df98e93c9934c47a94ca11d8d4bde4f\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224de37b8accfc4e4995e8f2b5f75b8bda\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022267e5f406ee34eca8dc0eba9ee925d60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022267e5f406ee34eca8dc0eba9ee925d60\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the 2024/25 annual plan of the Controller and Auditor-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f61cfcefc19b42f38690b9beed649ec8\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002246bcd13211624814987c29d7725d2209\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022107f313891b74165b5268f206e69cb3f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00227dd2b5294652497ba802822259549b68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dd2b5294652497ba802822259549b68\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002234bf04888f5f41c299ddbde6bd18ffd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234bf04888f5f41c299ddbde6bd18ffd3\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, especially my statement that my goal is to ensure that Oranga Tamariki is a truly child-centric care and protection agency where the safety of children is at the forefront of social work practice and decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264a44bdbde5a41c7adb24d1693e9bb0e\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Children\u2019s Commissioner, who said, about bootcamps, that \u201CInternational and domestic evidence is clear these types of approaches don\u2019t work in the long-term\u201D, or does she completely disagree, like the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b73f5ea5e0fb4417a1c6870f8d1feb83\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Whilst that isn\u2019t a statement that I myself made, I do agree that we do need to have an holistic approach when it comes to our young people, but I disagree with part of that statement, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259da0fd302d64c739b888132cdca4d07\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement in respect of the 6.5 percent savings that \u201CThere will be no financial impact and there has been no impact on the front-line services. This is a guarantee.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6a50527ec99451f857d4549945b0d9b\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. When we were doing the restructure, 6.5 percent was aimed at back-office staff. Front-line staff were out of scope within this restructure, and I stand by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e26bde2ce048f58f613cd2cdc85798\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Oranga Tamariki chief executive, Chappie Te Kani, when he said, \u201CThere is not enough money to meet the needs that we see every day. There just isn\u2019t.\u201D, and, if so, why did she not seek to be excluded from the 6.5 percent savings exercise required by the Minister of Finance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227850870902d2471680b12af6be43d487\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Whilst there was a 6.5 percent saving, those savings were taken out of the back office and redirected to the front office where there was a lack of resources and tools for front-line staff. Front-line staff are my focus and will continue to be so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e5e26a46b4c4f11b31a4d813c0b159d\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she allowing funding to be clawed back from front-line community providers when they say the need is still there and when she stated in Estimates that \u201CWe need to make sure that the front-line services are actually being resourced to be able to do their job and do their job well.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226df799e2c61541979450a3d9deab0c8a\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Quite frankly, if there is money left over, it\u2019s not going to sit in the bank accounts of NGOs that haven\u2019t spent it; it\u2019s going to be sent back to the organisation to be redistributed to the ones that need that money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7057e83e6f49d4b1dbc36413e6b5be\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Will she acknowledge that persistent leaking of documents, the Minister dismissing officials\u2019 advice, Oranga Tamariki lawyers being forced to seek advice from King\u2019s Counsel over a failed restructure, and now headlines about the Oranga Tamariki chief executive officer hitting out at staff are all a clear sign that Oranga Tamariki is imploding under her watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238d33b66220e41f9bf1e48f7ab824c76\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Whilst that doesn\u2019t come under the scope of the original question, I will answer that. Actually, I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022966ef772a4cb4190a80aeca19066601f\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s under your watch\u2014your actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc6499927db04e329e7b447064735d64\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not my statement or my actions. You\u2019ve spoken about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218cc54fc5f78405ba0ec6ada2cc5f61a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me\u2014[Interruption] Can you stop for a minute\u2014just stop. The only person who judges whether it\u2019s in the scope of the question or not is me. If a question is asked and not stopped, assume it\u2019s in scope. Please just give an answer and the rest of the House will listen while the answer is given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a8def42db4c45b89cd9205adbc9b074\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree with the fact that it\u2019s a failed restructure. This restructure is focusing on the front-line staff, making sure they have the tools necessary to do their jobs so that our children are at the centre of every decision that we\u2019re making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0ad23d5053f421cb793a7d199005ede\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s imploding!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022139d7e1c4a1549ff830dc1c2be1b70e1\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ab00527d0e2459eb8fc1087ca68f940\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just a moment. We\u2019re just not going to have these calls out in the middle of a question. You\u2019re right at the edge of it, I admit, but it\u2019s not particularly helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022473c668ba01044e6b681dcd924bcc12c\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Minister\u2019s belief that it\u2019s possible to get better results in some areas with less money, and, if so, what are some of the values and initiatives that she\u2019s brought to her leadership of Oranga Tamariki to achieve it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d09c4fccf57646a0a2baf2c2b0cd9ae5\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we need to actually focus on where the problems lie, and my focus has been on going around visiting organisations to see where the issues and problems lie. Lots were in the youth justice and care and protection facilities, which is where I\u2019m putting a big focus to make sure that our young people come out better than when they went in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b7a5918578f4f4f879b0e8dd62f0ad6\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: In the Minister\u2019s answer to my first supplementary question, which part of the question did she disagree with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3403dfab07b47ba9f38c0165d0601e9\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Could you repeat the whole question again so that I can give you an answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202edd0e5839a45ad848e27034b7ed205\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Happy to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a34ea1d3efb94265a1035592f80745b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014hang on a minute. The question is about the Minister\u2019s answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d03b81927ba41c2b5b7851c98818f7e\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure which question she\u2019s asking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f48cd249b39e43ef88bb9df308405d04\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, sorry, we can\u2019t do that. We could go on for ever doing that. Just give some kind of answer. There must have been a reason why the Minister said what she\u00A0said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcf049a352694d5b96f119eafd3e4eff\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. In the most recent supplementary question, Willow-Jean Prime actually asked which part of the question did the Minister disagree with. I\u2019m sure the Minister would probably\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022729c074555614e27af5a798478a57941\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. Sit down. The Minister\u2019s answer said that she disagreed with part of the question. I remember that very clearly. It\u2019s in the Hansard. The Minister, I\u2019m sure, remembers which part of the question she didn\u2019t agree with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d46f8a991c14b488bdd357d880ab575\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: From my understanding, part of the question was around a holistic approach from the Children\u2019s Commissioner and the other part was about punitive, and I don\u2019t agree that we\u2019re going down a punitive road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383e01642996410e92c638c6e9a8400e\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That wasn\u2019t the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c575a80ff804bdf836faa3294f42228\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then, that\u2019s unfortunate, because that\u2019s the answer. If you\u2019ve got another question, ask it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002273328b3d12254a148bc29df42e3162fd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022504f69fb374f45bf8908df02501fc289\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022504f69fb374f45bf8908df02501fc289\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he stand by all of his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u002269a8c139cd9b4500905b1760c1c2a0d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269a8c139cd9b4500905b1760c1c2a0d2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: Yes. I particularly stand by my statement yesterday that the Government is reforming sentencing to ensure criminals face serious consequences for crime, and victims are prioritised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c1162561f5c4be990826a2e0c77082a\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: What role does he believe Te Tiriti o Waitangi plays in the criminal justice system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0f06001588f4542866156046983d500\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Justice, I believe that the Treaty of Waitangi does play some part in our everyday lives. However, what\u2019s more important is that New Zealand society as a whole is protected from serious violent crime, and with the latest New Zealand crime survey results coming out and telling us that there were 1.88\u00A0million victims of crime last year in New Zealand, the focus actually needs to be on protecting our communities as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022742f430825a04761990b52b3f6f6f9a2\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: How, then, can he justify the removal of Te Tiriti o Waitangi provisions from legislation, especially from legislation that has been designed to address breaches of Te Tiriti within the criminal justice system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206a48d46bba6430cb3315bd80fa6efa2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Justice, the focus is on our communities and our victims of crime. We will justify any improvements that we can make to legislation to ensure that our communities are safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207daea54f6384245abe1f4858db1f3e9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister: if the brightest legal mind in the M\u0101ori world back then, Sir Apirana Ngata, who got a law degree in two years flat\u2014a\u00A0record for any legal student in this country\u2014did not believe that it had a connection, why would somebody with no training think there was one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bcd8a6dbe8042e3b8c1571c46763458\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Justice, I think what we need to do is actually come back to the core responsibility of this Government to protect our communities, to make sure that our victims are recognised, and to lock up those serious criminals who have no respect for the law, for New Zealand, or for victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002260878f61ac4d455ab5c36ca83af8f31f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00224f4b956a06f34e46b9fabb066f511a58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f4b956a06f34e46b9fabb066f511a58\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What changes come into effect on 1 July?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002267d75b3c0634464b8223eb5fc197cc53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267d75b3c0634464b8223eb5fc197cc53\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Associate Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: Next week, New Zealanders can expect, after six years of struggle, some relief to their back pockets. A number of promises the coalition Government campaigned on will be delivered next week. These changes will be good news for Kiwis who are sick of being punished for daring to drive a car in Auckland or owning a home, and there will be good news for parents who have been slammed by the cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226617cbd8399d46d098dbae38dae0e672\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits will parents see from next week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a76843b1bf44d99b2c397787bf96bb7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Finance, from next Monday, we\u2019re putting more money in the back pockets of Kiwi parents to give them extra support to take precious time off to bond with their newborns. The maximum weekly rate for paid parental leave will increase from $712.17 to $754.87 gross per week. We know many families are struggling with high costs, including childcare. That\u2019s why, starting next week, families with young children will be supported with a partial reimbursement of early childhood education (ECE) fees. Through our FamilyBoost scheme, families can claim up to 25 percent of their ECE fees, to a maximum of $150 per fortnight. This is a major coalition campaign commitment and forms part of our overall tax plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e8c65fe3714c2488da5714400a0f59\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: What do Aucklanders have to look forward to next week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a73404111d214e36a42c989ee1caee2d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on behalf of the Minister of Finance, from next week, this Government will be ending the Auckland regional fuel tax. This will make Auckland motorists 11.5c per litre better off, and in difficult times that is a significant saving. Despite abolishing this tax, we are delivering a record investment in transport, including in Auckland, with money set aside to fix and prevent potholes on the State highway and local road network, and funding for public transport services increasing compared to the last three years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248cfe2bbd6bd4e66bc9f55d75877580a\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: What do homeowners have to look forward to next week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022580b524cceb34c31bc62acd51a908b6d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the tax relief keeps on coming. Brightline tests for residential property goes back to two years on 1 July, ending the previous Government\u2019s stealth capital gains tax. Of course, from 31 July, just the end of next month, more than 1.9 million Kiwi households will benefit on average by $60 per fortnight when our personal income tax relief package comes into effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255a363d9dff64e3888afb0de06f905b8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Revenue\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff1ed202abb64ccea04cc48a1866a87a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ed202abb64ccea04cc48a1866a87a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Revenue: Is he confident that all wage and salary earners will receive the full tax benefits, as outlined in Budget\u00A02024 and the Tax at a Glance leaflet, on their first pay day on or after 31 July 2024; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2952bc626f64b389e2374eb487e7776\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2952bc626f64b389e2374eb487e7776\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Inland Revenue is working at pace with payroll providers to ensure that every wage and salary earner will get their well-earned tax relief as promised. After 14 years, Kiwis have waited long enough to get their much-awaited tax relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a33e6ce362b0425eae366d3ca862f5f4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister elect not to carry the personal income tax threshold changes through to portfolio investment entity (PIE) investor rates or employer superannuation contribution tax (ESCT) rates until 1\u00A0April\u00A02025, even though personal income tax thresholds are changing on 31\u00A0July\u00A02024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8105b314f2043e4b707b7e19bc60a4a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: The two examples provided by that member were highlighted as part of the Budget documents released, and it is correct that the employer superannuation contribution tax will come into effect on 1 April 2025. But the reality is that 3.5 million New Zealanders are going to benefit from personal income tax relief on 31 July, and that side of the House voted against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225adb8e50a2894f6db9cf2f2fd282b520\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that not changing the PIE investor rates or the employer superannuation contribution tax rates until 1 April 2025 means that low-income earners investing in KiwiSaver will be overtaxed by an average of $70 each between 31 July 2024 and 31\u00A0March\u00A02025?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eb2b292051d4ab09fed014f006c0592\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve answered that in my prior question. I said that we are aware of that and that those changes and fixes in regards to the ESCT will come into effect. The amount quoted, around $70.80, is correct, but we\u2019ve signalled that as part of the Budget process. But, again, I remind the member: her party voted against the policies that we are implementing to deliver taxpayers in this country tax relief from 30 July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4e931e09ee41ca9cf9f0d278ea7496\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the case that the House may have seen an incredibly rare occurrence, a Labour MP arguing for tax relief?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f7e177973024fd999c44c6fbb44016f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not a question. Things like that are not at all helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022029f76381a3d4f63be550b57e3001dcb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that this over-taxation will lead to KiwiSaver balances being reduced by\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273632eeaf1814ea997b0df92a9a53bf0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, hang on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d36ea412c4249a2b0dc6e1e3097f302\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014700\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b34f0c5fa644fb9829e1308cfff55ca\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on. Start again, while the House is listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed057ff1d73d434faec644966152f2c1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Is the Minister aware that this over-taxation of low-income earners will lead to KiwiSaver fund balances being reduced by $700 million by 2070?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5f59e2fd36f4fa2a650d867fe974f93\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, firstly, I don\u2019t agree with the premise of the question, because I stated already that the Budget included the assumption that these fixes would come into play from 1\u00A0April\u00A02025. So it\u2019s not over-taxation. But what is over-taxation is that side of the House not supporting the tax cuts that this Government has outlined where 3.5 million New Zealanders will benefit by an average of $32 a fortnight. But I\u2019m proud to be part of a Government that has delivered upon our promises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022467c8451783d4792bb6c351ccaac0e27\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister comfortable with the over-taxation of low-income New Zealanders when it helps the Minister of Finance to balance her Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e00e5a986f34786bf26af847cff365c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, this is a little bit tiresome but I will reinforce the point that on this side of the House we believe that hard-working Kiwis deserve to keep more of what they earn. What is clear on that side of the House is that they do not believe in that premise. I tell you what: New Zealanders are pretty smart; they will follow the aspect that makes sense for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5a8242bab83474886b844324d7531f4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267ad56d4758a47ec980513c8b331808a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait till the House is prepared to listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b322bb46584a508202754f14d47292\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, they will be. Would it have been easier to handle this matter of tax cuts had the Government not had to wrestle with the squanderous $25 billion excess spending of the last three years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f2b488834b748599ee2079cc45d5db9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s another one of those questions that\u2019s kind of interesting but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225721a2bfea4d4687b0162d00723abda6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d9155d434fc4c71a8d90438772b50ca\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that will be the member\u2019s assertion, and if that\u2019s the case, the whole House knows it. So we don\u2019t need to hear it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022637f9a51928d44e6913e25990024474e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00221dad61f00de54c9cb20a864b52292172\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dad61f00de54c9cb20a864b52292172\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she support disabled people being paid as low as $2 per hour due to minimum wage exemptions; if not, why did she discontinue the wage supplement that would replace exemptions while protecting existing jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e956b5e453784d619a8c7a264c42c5ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e956b5e453784d619a8c7a264c42c5ec\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, the minimum wage exemption scheme supports disabled people to gain the rewards and social connections that come from work that they may not otherwise have the opportunity to obtain. The majority of disabled people covered by the exemption scheme receive the supported living payment, so this income is on top of their benefit payment. This means for a single person on the supported living payment, $403 a week plus up to the $180 a week from their supplementary work. I disagree with the assertion that the wage supplement would have protected jobs. Many enterprises dedicated to enhancing the employment prospects of severely disabled people said the wage supplement would put pressure on their operating model, reducing their ability to provide to disabled New Zealanders a job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221627c33eb3ab44a7934f79b5916772b3\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she acknowledge that around 96 percent of these workers work for business enterprises, and is she comfortable with massive corporations such as Air New Zealand benefiting from the labour of workers who earn just $2.30 an hour for doing work they can do without? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220a079ed42e74b3c8a38e870dfb79a69\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the disability enterprises across New Zealand are all charitable organisations and their main purpose is supporting people with disabilities to be in employment, and they are free to choose to work there or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5b9577c243045dfbf15eba328b479c4\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How exactly can a wage supplement, which would act as a top-up for employers and designed to protect existing jobs, result in job losses for disabled people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022591a27e8fc354a80b4f7f38dfd4d08c7\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The disability enterprises have been really clear about their concerns about what was proposed by the previous Government, and, actually, our party had campaigned very clearly on retaining the status quo, because we want to see those enterprises that are a significant part of our communities do well and continue to employ disabled people and give them opportunities they otherwise wouldn\u2019t have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7b523a7c1f64f378525e9e7bcb9db0b\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement in defence of cutting the waste supplement that \u201Ca group of New Zealanders, who have significant challenges and would clearly produce less than someone else, may well be shut out of employment.\u201D, and, if so, how would the wage supplement have resulted in job losses when it is a top-up to the employer\u2019s contributions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa397b2807de4775acca6a5b034e171a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, the disability enterprises themselves raised concerns. And just so that the House is aware of how the minimum wage exemption works, there is a labour inspectorate who assesses the person\u2019s ability and their productivity in terms of the role that\u2019s proposed. They set a wage in that instance of which the person has the opportunity to accept or not. I stand by my statement. For me, it is incredibly important that we focus on what New Zealanders can do and what they can\u2019t, and I want to ensure that more New Zealanders have the opportunity to be in work. For a very small number\u2014I\u2019m talking nine\u2014there is a top-up to what they are receiving in terms of their supported living payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d410fc928b048b58d0cac68fecd9786\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Did she seek or receive any advice on how many job losses would have resulted as a result of implementing the wage supplement, and, if so, how many job losses would have resulted as a result of implementing the wage supplement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227824df7180604c67828738c0fdbdb537\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by my comments. The disability enterprises are a significant part of our communities. They are charitable organisations; without their existence we would not be able to provide those employment opportunities. While that member may not appreciate it is a small number of people, I value each and every single one of those disabled people and want to ensure they have the opportunities to be in work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d1a8cb6c094e139c36c3e75a53ca6d\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she keep insisting that the wage supplement would have resulted in job losses when it is a top-up for employers and she is not able to substantiate how many job losses that wage supplement would have resulted in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dd6085b589a46aabb9aaa1a8e0960cc\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Because\u2014as I said in my primary answer, if the member had listened\u2014many enterprises who are dedicated to enhancing the employment prospects of severely disabled people said the wage supplement would put pressure on their operating model, reducing their ability to provide disabled New Zealanders a job. The member doesn\u2019t seem to understand that with the wage supplement, there are more costs involved in employing somebody. And this is not about a saving; this is about protecting disability enterprises. They are an important part of our community who provide very important opportunities that disabled people can choose to participate in and work there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb32c70618754a5090a54eb90f5d4286\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022a313479307d64391916c9c75444ab955\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a313479307d64391916c9c75444ab955\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What announcements has he made about land transport investment in New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00225c188952de0444dba29166b532c44ac8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c188952de0444dba29166b532c44ac8\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I released the final Government policy statement (GPS) on land transport, a $22 billion plan over the next three years which will deliver on our transport commitments. This GPS is already delivering for New Zealanders, and will continue to do so by bringing back the successful roads of national significance programme. It invests substantially more in road maintenance and invests significantly more in reliable public transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0cece854511422fb22542536196be54\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government policy statement investing in pothole prevention on State highways? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d575bf900a44646a8d757fcd6bc9463\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, good question. Our Government has created a new pothole prevention fund activity class that is ring-fenced to resealing, rehabilitating, and the drainage on the maintenance of our roads to prevent those pesky potholes from forming. Over $2 billion has already been allocated to the pothole prevention fund for State highways across the country\u2014a 91 percent increase in funding compared to the spend in the last three years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a449533da254c1ba749a244cff1e324\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government policy statement investing in pothole prevention on local roads? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ddd382f3dbb4e2b835753d20e85cc5c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: More good news: almost $2 billion has been allocated to local road pothole prevention to prevent pesky potholes from forming\u2014a 50 percent increase in funding from over the last three years. Compared to spend in the previous three years, we\u2019re increasing local road pothole prevention funding by 74 percent in Auckland, 61 percent in the Bay of Plenty, 38\u00A0percent in Canterbury, and 40 percent in Southland. This investment will deliver real results for Kiwis travelling on our roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e28720691c7487c9eccc7be1bd6755f\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government policy statement delivering for public transport users? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b983ac5b04b14d118f04995cf741bf0e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, even more good news. There is great news for public transport users across the country, with our Government delivering a 41 percent boost in funding for public transport services and operations to help Kiwis have more travel choices, particularly in our main cities. We are a Government of delivery, and we\u2019re committed to delivering reliable public transport services for New Zealand. The last Government\u2014they might have spent their time on a ghost bridge across the harbour; we\u2019re actually going to get things done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b8c53adf0d445afb0da46c0efc422f9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00220228a84bb2d04261b54a4bab16d784de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E7.\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220228a84bb2d04261b54a4bab16d784de\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence: Does she stand by her statement regarding the development of a family violence reduction target, \u201CI didn\u2019t feel it was appropriate to have a target in this space\u201D; if so, is the reason she did not feel it was appropriate because justice sector Ministers were advised that family violence victimisations are unlikely to change over a 3- to 6-month period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7a9adc88e384abb9229175abc20a5c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7a9adc88e384abb9229175abc20a5c8\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, yes, I stand by my statement. In answer to the second part of the question, no, because family and sexual violence is a focus for this Government. That is why the justice sector Ministers agreed that family and sexual violence is measured under the target to reduce violent crime by having 20,000 fewer people as victims of assaults, robberies, and sexual assaults by 2029. If you listen to the people who work in this space, like I do, they say it wouldn\u2019t be appropriate, for example, to have a target like the number of reported rapes or sexual assaults because, actually, we know this is an under-reported issue. An increase in reporting would be a good thing because that means more feel confident in coming forward in knowing that the support services they need will be available for them, which is what my focus is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c43a924044504921b89eb2cf23794fb5\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: On what date was she advised than an incident-based family violence target can be reliably measured through the New Zealand Crime and Victims Survey?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248e5860f7bdd4a1583db1f4e96843790\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, can you just repeat that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dde78a70619c40668e7c32e1d5204e14\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: On what date was she advised that an incident-based family violence target can be reliably measured through the New Zealand Crime and Victims Survey?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5aee6f25a5f4e058dca61e7df74415e\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: If you would like a specific date, you can put that question in writing and I can get that to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e08ec39a0a0420aae2394fadba23bce\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that she received advice from Te Puna Aonui that stated, \u201CFamily violence victimisation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ab45d84e6404ffbb385b2b52a6313cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, wait on\u2014just wait. Now you can ask the question, because people are listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236a1cb5ebad644c0ae8eb175826d5c05\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that she received advice from Te Puna Aonui that stated, \u201CFamily violence victimisation can in fact be reliably measured through the New Zealand Crime and Victims Survey. However, it was not possible to develop a Government target due to public sector Budget cuts possibly shifting the survey from yearly to every second year.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7ab67a2b92b439caf4fcf639ef023d1\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t remember all the advice that was in there, but I can speak to the New Zealand Crime and Victims Survey, which is an excellent survey because it takes on board people who come forward and share their experiences with how the system has wrapped around them and what supports they have been able to get. This is something that will be very crucial when it comes to looking at how we are achieving in this space in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb2551f7f5364e969a092380396c456d\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How does she explain to the victims of family and sexual violence that it was not possible for her Government to measure progress for family violence because of their own Budget cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022571427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7fd55f6d9844880adcc08e100d494ae\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I would actually disagree with that statement. It is possible to measure that through the New Zealand Crime and Victims Survey. We are focused on having 20,000 fewer people as victims of assaults, robberies, and serious sexual assaults by 2029, and that is a commitment we intend to keep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221d5a11905b34d76892d9d99f0dd4624\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How does she expect to \u201Cbreak the cycle of violence for the safety and wellbeing of all New Zealanders\u201D when her Government was not able to set a family violence target due to Budget cuts, provided zero additional funding for family violence in the Budget, and agreed for police to step back from family violence 111 calls without any additional support services being in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022606fe97ac6854ccaa5395ab31631a5db\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: We did set a target\u2014it was under the justice sector Ministers\u2014which was to reduce by 20,000 fewer people to be victims of assault, robberies, and sexual assaults. I disagree there wasn\u2019t a target.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a1e4962821843c0a41487f95efadfee\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to draw to your attention Standing Order 396\u2014I believe\u2014which says that a question should not contain imputations, arguments, or information beyond that that is necessary to make the question intelligible. Now, in that question and an earlier one from Willow-Jean Prime, we\u2019ve had four and then\u00A0three assertions made within the question. Now, if you want questions to be a way of making arguments, that\u2019s one thing, but it\u2019s not consistent with the Standing Orders and it\u2019s now a pattern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e39911928e5a41e48163386866f9e2e4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You are absolutely right, if the letter of the Standing Order was followed\u2014there\u2019s no question about that. But then, again, those Standing Orders that deal with questions also equally deal with answers, and so there is a little bit of give and take. I personally thought\u00A0that the Minister was answering the questions about an assertion quite strongly, so I didn\u2019t feel there was a need to interfere with the flow of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c50cb967df30417eb2d7ed939b3c16ad\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u002247422405f4e84f7987a94130c5e17815\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247422405f4e84f7987a94130c5e17815\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: What actions has the Government taken to support the primary sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab00860da5ab4235a89479ea62d79f9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab00860da5ab4235a89479ea62d79f9e\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the Government is absolutely committed to meeting our climate change obligations. However, it just doesn\u2019t make sense to shut down Kiwi farms and send jobs and production overseas so that less carbon-efficient countries produce the food that the world needs. The Government, therefore, is delivering on its election commitments to take agriculture out of the emissions trading scheme (ETS), to disestablish He Waka Eke Noa, and to restore confidence in the sector. Instead, the Government will engage directly with a small group of industry leaders through a new pastoral sector group, and today we have announced we have commissioned an independent review of the science and targets of methane against additional warming so that farmers will know exactly what it is they need to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022707c805f57354eadbe04f4b3321e8061\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government committed to reducing agricultural emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d05af3457aca4666abc86d1cac74bd10\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and that\u2019s why the Government is investing further in R\u00A0\u0026amp;\u00A0D development to develop practical tools, with $400 million being committed over the next four years to accelerate the commercialisation of tools and technology to reduce on-farm emissions, including an additional $50.5 million funding for the New Zealand Agricultural Greenhouse Gas Research Centre. Just this week, the Government and the BNZ announced an additional $8 million commitment towards AgriZero to boost New Zealand\u2019s efforts to reduce agricultural emissions with the development of technology like methane vaccines; a project to lower-emissions cattle, something so that the Opposition members produce less hot air; and accelerate the work of methane and nitrous oxide. We are investing heavily in research and development to provide farmers with tools to reduce methane, not to reduce productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a83e0fd0bad46ff87d5fef8f26a83cb\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What more is the Government doing to support the rural economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f25644a705b42ac96383362e29c6d58\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure there\u2019s plenty but keep it a concise answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b103bf2253524b25afd4d9d41881add1\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019ve heard loud and clear concerns from farmers and growers with the role that banks have played over recent years. Promoting robust competition in the banking sector is vital to rebuilding the economy and that\u2019s why the Government has written to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and the Primary Production Committee to undertake an inquiry into banking competition, including rural banking. Growing the rural economy is critical to rebuilding New Zealand\u2019s economy, and with farmer satisfaction and banking services dropping over recent years, it\u2019s critical that we better understand the role that the bank competition can play for the rural sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022241af48599694ed29b8f474ef05d3635\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What else has the Government announced to support our rural communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022301355421b704fe4882893af74512b1e\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the National - ACT - New Zealand First coalition Government knows that local issues require local solutions. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve also announced that we will be backing farmers to improve land management practices and water quality, with further commitment to support locally led catchment groups. Catchment groups and collectors are an integral and vital part in rebuilding an expert-driven economy, so the Government is committing $36 million to support these groups, with $7 million of this going directly to catchment groups across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002262486c7fb8f34f2582c39739433cd522\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Conservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2930f541ff04d1fb57efb279a8a935b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2930f541ff04d1fb57efb279a8a935b\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Does he agree that every Government, no matter their politics, has a duty of care on behalf of all New Zealanders in the conservation of Te Taiao?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002242e6191c7c6a4b7eb620147f4826e98f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242e6191c7c6a4b7eb620147f4826e98f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Conservation: I expect that every New Zealander, including every member of this House, feels an innate desire to protect our conservation values in this country, and as the Minister of Conservation, I have a statutory responsibility to do so that I am determined to uphold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261ec1a4516274b89bbc33c4708234582\u0022\u003ELan Pham\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think that his duty of care is being upheld when he decided to cut the successful Jobs for Nature programme, which has brought immeasurable benefits to te taiao; enabled iwi, hap\u016B, and communities to regenerate nature; and employed thousands of people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a9636e6ca9c41b38799f194a19aea2d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, the Jobs for Nature programme included work streams that were always time limited. That was the case under the previous Government under which they were established; that remains the case now, and unallocated funding being discontinued is not inconsistent with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fbdbe89ee794a068a125c6cb9996ae4\u0022\u003ELan Pham\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that his duty of care to protect biodiversity and taonga species is threatened by the Minister for the Environment\u2019s decision to cut over $600\u00A0million from Vote Environment, gut her own ministry, and scrap 500 staff roles?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284ca244edee84359b68d41c98b7ba569\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Conservation, I obviously reject the premise and the characterisation of that question. My fellow Ministers and I are obviously determined to achieve conservation and other Government priorities. Part of that is reprioritising within the portfolios to ensure that the spending available\u2014noting that no Government has ever had an unlimited budget in these matters\u2014is deployed to maximum effect by concentrating on the areas with which we can make most difference to the conservation estate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022659ac1de4aaf40aa9b2f947860c0bb3e\u0022\u003ELan Pham\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that his duty of care to protect marine species is threatened by the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries\u2019 proposal to disregard environmental risks and community voice through a blanket extension of every single marine farm in the country for 20 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022981e01a23d7347fc94603d9934ce02bd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Conservation, obviously I reject the characterisation of the actions and the statements and the responsibilities as executed faithfully by that ministerial colleague.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b902f88eec549e48d3925cfc2d2afcc\u0022\u003ELan Pham\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think his duty of care is threatened by the Government\u2019s decision to override core environmental laws, our proud history of democratic process, and our founding document of Te Tiriti through the Fast-track Approvals Bill, all for the sake of industry profit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255bf14cad76841adb06f48f2afc10144\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Again on behalf of the Minister of Conservation, and again those characterisations are not even close to being accurate. In relation to the democratic participation element, just to pick on that aspect of the question, it\u2019s the case that the relevant select committee has been engaged in hearing submissions on that very point, which rather undermines the member\u2019s point. It\u2019s precisely because we have that ability for democratic participation that the select committee will form a view on the bill as a whole, including any amendments that it might propose, and the Government will consider those in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226199d451553e418b8b49e5a8eac04b95\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, you\u2019ll have observed in the last question and the one before that that this member\u2019s habit is to get up and make a lot of comments that she cannot authenticate, and in this House you\u2019re required to be able to authenticate to the House or the Speaker if you\u2019re challenged. Those statements about the four changes were not true then and they\u2019re not true in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd910dca6f5947238f86b635989b9533\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that would be an interesting point of order if it were in line with the Standing Orders. Supplementary questions merely have to follow on from answers given to a primary question. I listened to that very, very carefully. Sometimes we let stuff go because of the flow of the House, but I don\u2019t believe those questions were as far out of order as was being suggested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022207c1be9407247159716b75ed945f491\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229120529eedc34eda9edf12994cfb8d50\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a further point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f243152d98746eb9137381e01aa15b6\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a point of order, yeah. If I heard correctly\u2014and I just wanted to check because I was trying to pay attention\u2014did I just hear the Rt Hon Winston Peters imply that my colleague was lying by claiming that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1a1c2b242c24f0e8ee1863d28dc1de6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, you didn\u2019t hear that. You heard him questioning the relativity of the question to the Standing Orders, which is quite reasonable. I call Lan Pham.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022988eab3e760e42e985fad337e895723e\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5e8f4aa520940a4b8a0549d09308942\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This better be good. Is it new?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbb542aec2f94241aaa9bc72058f313d\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary\u2014yes. Is it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022030725fce77743e598d5dd78179f7839\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, hang on, I\u2019ve called Lan Pham.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222efcb08a0ebe4d2ea0ff6b5b00de793d\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it better be good, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2912b14f6ec4e3a952a026c4078bd07\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just everyone go back to being quiet and listening to a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242073c412f454392a6c214900e92bfbc\u0022\u003ELan Pham\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What in his department\u2019s environmental reporting and monitoring has he seen to support the Minister for the Environment\u2019s claim that \u201Cwe consider the balance [has] swung too far towards environmental protection\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229152b4184f1a4eeaa0364d05ad82dd75\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Conservation, fellow Ministers and I are determined to ensure that we achieve real-world outcomes that are better for the environment but also better for the economy. This need not be a false choice. We can actually improve the environment in a way that reflects good, sustainable development and management principles, and that\u2019s what we determine to continue to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe37e79676747558379fd73da6edec3\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Minister\u2019s view that wealthy countries are able to put more resource into conservation, and his duty of care to the planet and the people of this country will be so much better discharged with sound economic management under this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c415daaa6824471b04aaf03e89b9381\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Conservation, that is indeed the evidence that we see worldwide. Countries that can afford to expend their resources in terms of protecting the environment, invariably are able to do so in a way that countries that are poorer simply cannot, and that feeds into the bigger-picture work of the Government of rebuilding the economy so that we have resources to do precisely this kind of thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f24ea23d36a14d51b99fb0891d5dd968\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014M\u0101ori Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002278217cbdd1cc4bbba86a89dcfebbf075\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278217cbdd1cc4bbba86a89dcfebbf075\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for M\u0101ori Development: What reports, if any, has he seen regarding his support for cuts to Matariki funding by 45 percent in Budget \u201824?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022812bffa90d31438b97936f3b1048e8bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022812bffa90d31438b97936f3b1048e8bc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for M\u0101ori Development: I can advise that he has not seen any reports regarding his support for such cuts, given that the appropriation in which Matariki funding sits is with the Ministry for Culture and Heritage. But on the matter of cuts, I would say that what should have been cut was the bubble and squeak from the young man from Ng\u0101ti Toa who I thought did a gross disservice last night in this Parliament lecturing Matua about Matariki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245cfe211fda64a4db217a76bff6a37f5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I cannot let that go. It was well out of order. It was gratuitous, and it\u2019s what we expect\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3e08b995a394adc82a87e3381dfd28f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment! Points of order are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251bc286b62a84d8ab92049d8f542bc89\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: That was entirely gratuitous, wildly out of order, and simply disorderly, and I simply can\u2019t let that go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeb84bc542944f1e8b1a718eafac4f61\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m sure that you can\u2019t let it go; I\u2019ve got to decide what to do with it. So, what is your petition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6b5d41481e4b7da0084d8608b65b25\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I would request that you take action in respect of that kind of gratuitous and outrageous swipe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022224d8cad5884429688ce443596467479\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I think it would be appropriate to withdraw that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222df3a05654784ff7a4133913a72bba26\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I withdraw that remark, but I\u2019ll be back to see you in your office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beacc93922564ef9b210f4472ca587be\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Lock the doors!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8557358e66e4f05b5decd622cd10f7d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: If he won\u2019t apologise, throw him out. Get rid of him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234d1e9623b7a4121a039b9741931596d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, I\u2019m hearing from my left the comment that there should have been an apology. There\u2019s no apology necessary. There was no offensive remark made. There was a comment that was outside the strict bounds of the question answer. Simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291d42515371848eeb885b0a7d0a82b30\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What is the rationale for cutting much-needed funding for Matariki events when, according to reports from Ministry for Culture and Heritage, they have seen year-on-year increases in economic spend in the regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a234b797fc94424d954c86bd00367c16\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Matariki was created as a holiday by the last regime. This regime has inherited a straightened set of economic circumstances. Money will still be made available for Matariki, but Matariki has to serve the purposes of every single New Zealander, not add to the ideological fervour of younger M\u0101ori who want to dismember the Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e072a8d33b094eadafbda4028d044a0e\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to the organisers of the Matariki P\u0113whairangi festival who have said, and I quote, \u201CMany businesses feel that it has been a slap in the face. People get angry about funding, thinking it\u2019s some kind of handout, but all [of] that money circulates back [into the economy].\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3e07638392a4601a13fdf7efb6ae4be\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, as a regional champion, I\u2019m pained by the note that Tai Tokerau might be denied money through Matariki, but I would have thought that that problem was more related to the protracted time frame that it\u2019s taken to open up the Brynderwyns, which fortunately opened up last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225272247bc8e1423aaac0ed20ff47a4f7\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: How would the Minister rate his performance in terms of delivering for M\u0101ori in Budget \u201924, or are M\u0101ori best advised to put their hopes in the Matariki star, Hiwa-i-te-Rangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d79094cf988f42e39dc98d0c3434577a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So much as the Minister believes he\u2019s got some responsibility for the material put in the question, he may give an answer to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022707f9ca5328846d69d2e84ac29124afb\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: There are a host of references and allocations that have been made specifically to M\u0101ori outcomes, not the least of which is Matatini. And, of course, the full extent and breadth of the $1.2 billion regional growth fund will be made available next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b0d569ed83d4bb5a3885bfa485b7bb1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a22cb84f622e427eb0ca9c8c5350f8cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It comes back to this side\u2014so Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a3644ed977b45ee874e921d6293f05e\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe, e te P\u012Bka. Supplementary to that question, what does the Minister say to the Matariki festival organisers in P\u0113whairangi who said, \u201CWe were not informed this funding would not be renewed. We sent emails and tried to contact \u2026 [the ministry]. Then last week, the funding page was quietly deleted.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eb8eb7bf501453ab998410cffac51c0\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I t\u0113nei w\u0101 kua mimiti te haere o te p\u016Btea. Kei p\u014Dh\u0113h\u0113 a wai r\u0101nei i roto i te hapori e p\u016Bhake ana te p\u016Btea, ahakoa Matariki, ahakoa hauora, ahakoa ratonga, me m\u014Dhio te Whare kua mimiti haere te p\u016Btea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[At this time the funding is drying up. Let no one in the community be mistaken that the funding is overflowing. Whether it be Matariki, health, or services, the House should be aware that the funding is drying up.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c647544264c449f08cb6a80ca1e84f0d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister, with respect to the supplementary question put by the Hon Peeni Henare, how could he possibly, as a M\u0101ori Minister, rate himself when it is known that the k\u016Bmara never says how sweet it is, and before we start posturing about M\u0101ori culture, how about learning some basics about M\u0101ori culture? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224520306e512e4dd2b4e4cfb115050e27\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I am a rare k\u016Bmara. And, of course, the tribe that the member belongs to use the word tukau. I will not boast of sweetness. You will judge me by my results. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022692bfa6c9ef14007bf384de71beeec35\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You may be a rare k\u016Bmara; it\u2019s just we\u2019re lucky he\u2019s not tasty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223407eabe5b754e54a2291938a1510b6a\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What list does Matariki and other M\u0101ori initiatives belong to, the A list or the C list, and does \u2018C\u2019 stand for \u201CSee you later; ka kite\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ad83b20759849d9b9111e189b856ad1\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: These matters should be dealt with in a serious manner. It has become a habit for such institutions to be trivialised, misrepresented, and I think that the fact the Matariki holiday is now a feature of our calendar\u2014in the right way, more Kiwis are embracing it. But I\u2019d also remind the member that the word Matariki is in the Book of Job. It\u2019s as old as the Bible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aadb4a44245460b86861eef308f7359\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I think that answer was a confusion between the stars of Matariki and the road to Damascus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d36ca2d8edf41d38a489b79b7d0d45a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Building and Construction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022013ad970211d4e9b9b242fbb9f367128\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022013ad970211d4e9b9b242fbb9f367128\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: What announcements has the Government made about building and construction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022314ba1525ed740aba057f5127415640b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022314ba1525ed740aba057f5127415640b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has published the terms of reference for the review into earthquake-prone buildings. These demonstrate the Government\u2019s commitment to ensuring that we get the balance right between public safety and costs to building owners. The review will be extensive and will report back to the Government in the first half of 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c0b4c838c9d47649871d24cb9e76d4a\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Why do we need to review the earthquake-prone building system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e1db31ed54446c2b53f4041fe0aeba6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Because the Government is focused on reinvigorating our cities and regions to support economic growth. Buildings sitting empty and abandoned for years will be negative for everyone. Buildings in that kind of state can be dangerous, but they are also a handbrake on growth and development. Improving the way we manage the risks of earthquakes will be beneficial for everyone, from our largest cities to our smallest regional towns that are the backbone of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022352122db9e3e40d9852b815612a5b9d9\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: What will the review be focused on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c2b6dbdf3740c0a68bd8f5233416a2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: The review will focus on, among other things, the cost of mitigating earthquake risk and improving buildings\u2019 resilience; proposals for managing earthquake risk, as affecting building owners; barriers in the types of incentives that would help building owners better manage seismic risk; and changes that align with broader Government objectives, such as going for housing growth and rebuilding the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224be7a426ec33419f8f7af42aebe8f4ab\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Can Kiwis have their say on the review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adfc0244de9b4623a6b66b46baac6ba6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they certainly can. That includes all those across the political aisle within central government but also those in local government who have key roles to play in the system as it currently exists. The public can provide their feedback and share their views via the building.govt.nz site.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220eb34fe57e1641da8638e2f78fdba67f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Conservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022648dd8888c464ae180d9cbe6db6fab70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022648dd8888c464ae180d9cbe6db6fab70\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: Does he stand by all his statements made at the Estimates hearing of the Environment Committee on 18\u00A0June?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022707d2ed4ee99406c9cf12780648d7b27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022707d2ed4ee99406c9cf12780648d7b27\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Conservation: Yes, in the context that they were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c9a3cc7a8df4d5a9618be967fa8ca4b\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: What work, if any, has he done to determine the cost of avoiding species extinction, given his statement \u201Cwe have to be very careful before we say every single species is going to be saved. We have to be very mindful that that comes at a cost which up until this point in time, no one has figured out.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4d5dc9ae543b78c474f6a513b8fa6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Conservation, I note, first of all, that the Department of Conservation has a world-renowned threat classification system. Obviously, considerations need to be taken into account such as the number of different locations within New Zealand that endangered species exist and where extinction is threatened. Obviously, some are in greater need in terms of the sheer numbers involved, such as the number of breeding pairs of endangered birds, for example. I do note, however, that there have been considerable successes over the time of successive Governments, such as the dial being turned, so to speak, in relation to takah\u0113 and k\u0101k\u0101p\u014D. These are positive steps and we\u2019re focused on maximising the resources that we have to protect the conservation estate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb7c6f29edba42278853366ec4c436e3\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: So how can he say that saving every at-risk species without a costing is \u201C very myopic and short-sighted\u201D, when he has also said, at the same hearing, that there was no costing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022354696dd1d29404fb241579be15640a5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Conservation, it\u2019s impossible to quantify exactly the cost of saving all species. I would encourage all members of this House, including the member asking the question, to take a long-term view of the problem and to be quite clear-headed about the need to prioritise resources that will achieve the best possible effect in terms of protecting New Zealand\u2019s conservation. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anything controversial about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022298b789641fa4328a0d3092f3dc1d811\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Nicola Toki, chief executive of Forest \u0026amp; Bird, \u201CIt\u2019s incredibly concerning to hear the conservation minister say that avoiding species extinction is \u2018very aspirational\u2019 and that we need to somehow put a price on saving species that are only found here in Aotearoa New Zealand\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce9782f35b3e444abdd2a9016fc71bbe\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Conservation, obviously, I do not share Ms Toki\u2019s view in that regard, but I welcome her and every other New Zealander who has a view in the matter to express it. I think, however, as Minister, I\u2019ve been quite right to emphasise the importance of prioritising species that exist only in New Zealand, and I make no apology for doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d709f5887694a33840d0b31e021c8d2\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders have confidence in him as conservation Minister when he has so little ambition for protecting our biodiversity and has allowed over $100 million in cuts to the Department of Conservation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228723cf3bf8c74537bcb6eb25cbeae8f0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Conservation, obviously, I reject the premise of the question. Clearly, I am focused, as are my fellow Government Ministers, on maximising the outcomes\u2014and I emphasise outcomes as opposed to merely funding in the hope of achieving outcomes\u2014and for that reason, I am very clearly focused on ensuring we understand exactly what is required and to deliver exactly that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229c5e08119db1473c8e5f7f055e1eec1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c5e08119db1473c8e5f7f055e1eec1a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill. I\u2019d just ask those members who are going back to various other bits of business to leave the House quietly, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbc9c333606d465dbd4be665531e56d9\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f28d73aa43364067ac923ae92eb95343\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000668\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223629d8708fc042928080f893ee7e854c\u0022\u003EClause 6  Section 167C amended (Regulations for purposes of Part 13 (clean vehicle standard)) (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222cd912a7ecae424ca9c3223cfa3c2645\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cd912a7ecae424ca9c3223cfa3c2645\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, could we ask those that are leaving the House to leave quietly and have discussions in the lobbies or elsewhere, please. Members, when we suspended for the lunch break, we were in committee on the Land Transport (Clean\u00A0Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill and we were debating clause 6. Clause 6 is \u201CSection 167C amended (Regulations for purposes of Part 13 (clean vehicle standard))\u201D. I will remind members that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment inserting new clause 5E amending section 167C should properly be an amendment to clause 6, so will be considered as part of this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00226522c0e4a2e8421a90966d2c262a13c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226522c0e4a2e8421a90966d2c262a13c5\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to take a very brief call in this debate. It\u2019s good to see the Minister back in the chair after the break. We\u2019ve had the Minister Erica Stanford answer all of our questions on this part and so I only want to thank her for her excellent contributions. We have no more questions on this part, but if the Minister would like to add to her answers, we\u2019d look forward to asking her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf4a360dc1d846f2a1d8db8ab1ea19e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf4a360dc1d846f2a1d8db8ab1ea19e3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I just had a member tell me there were no more questions on this part, and now we\u2019re having calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd296cdc06f04cbfb05d698a04b04821\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd296cdc06f04cbfb05d698a04b04821\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I can explain, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022628fbd5e0602493b88c2d1cd0e991496\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll have one wee explanation. Thank you. Just a wee one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281026ea3076e4bd298a4ebd26ff8c7d6\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: A little point was made when a different Minister was sitting in the chair, but it hasn\u2019t been answered. So the point that I think my colleague was making was that it would be very great to hear some answers from the Minister, and I\u2019ll remind the Minister what my point was, very quickly. It\u2019s just that the Ministers in the chair have been talking about certainty with the state change, which makes it sound as if the Ministers expect the regulations to be mandatory, but all the words in the legislation say \u201Cmay\u201D, not a mandatory \u201Cmust\u201D. So I\u2019d like a confirmation that in fact the regulations are, as the Minister said before, enabling the Minister to make the regulation, but it\u2019s not in fact mandatory for a regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022c42f1b5652934c7886f88be082dcfb63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c42f1b5652934c7886f88be082dcfb63\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220dc2f76c1f97459d9e416f5a7b20e357\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dc2f76c1f97459d9e416f5a7b20e357\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 6 set out on Amendment Paper 42 is out of order as being inconsistent with the principles and objects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to delete clause 6 set out on Amendment Paper 44 is out of order as being a direct negation of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6 to replace \u201C2024\u201D with \u201C2025\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002255a7a30518f2467d892856dbde637dcf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f829862151334537a5fc121e71109c9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f829862151334537a5fc121e71109c9f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6 to replace \u201C2024\u201D with \u201C2026\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221012590202cb449fae06832e38b2dafb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002275d5336cfeec4ba195f2043a88457ad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275d5336cfeec4ba195f2043a88457ad5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment inserting new clause 5E be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d9a20afef13a4672baf5670a195acd75\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223a0a529e465c46ffb7a1df62718a0acb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 6 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 6 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002208c1182ead33406f896e5b6f93722813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208c1182ead33406f896e5b6f93722813\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 5F is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 5G is out of order as not being in the proper form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214dbcd02f33848e4881cf6dda8f76c8d\u0022\u003EClause 7  Section 175 amended (Targets for reducing carbon dioxide emissions)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c746b1571fb7408ba1d39fa8bc2e4ac3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c746b1571fb7408ba1d39fa8bc2e4ac3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on clause 7, which is the debate on \u201CSection 175 amended (Targets for reducing carbon dioxide emissions)\u201D. The question is that clause 7 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002262ccc8c3f1f6493f8c4201f603e38ca0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262ccc8c3f1f6493f8c4201f603e38ca0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to take a call on clause 7. This clause, effectively, does two things. What it does is it removes the prescribed targets which are in the legislation that the last Government legislated. Secondly, it allows the Government to be able to set new targets via regulation for any calendar year after 2024 rather than keeping those targets in legislation. So the targets for this current year will stay in law, the targets for last year will stay prescribed, but the targets for the next three years will be removed. The regulation-making power is then set so that the Minister can then set the targets for the next three years, just as it\u2019s already in place for the years after that. There\u2019s a regulation-making power which already allows those targets to be set for the following three years; this just simply brings that forward and allows for those targets to be set from the end of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very simple clause. It makes two key changes which then enables the Government to make any changes. There is a review already under way as prescribed in the Act. As the Minister of Transport, I\u2019m required to undertake a review of the standard. I was required to review the standard prior to 30 June 2024; the problem was that I could review it but there was no ability for any changes to be made. So, quite simply, I\u2019m doing the review and now there\u2019s going to be an ability for any changes to be made based upon that review. Actually, that is a common-sense approach; a sensible way. In fact, I remember being around the select committee table when this bill was being debated, going through Parliament, and, actually, one of the points which consistently came through is, actually, enabling the Minister to set these standards via regulation was put to the last Government, they ignored that advice, they ignored those recommendations; we are simply doing it in a far more sensible way. I look forward to the debate on this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00224374e9e3c9a44e8eaa76e3943be69092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224374e9e3c9a44e8eaa76e3943be69092\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have some questions that I put to the Minister around the commencement date that pertain also to this clause that I haven\u2019t heard an answer to in the committee yet. This is particularly around repealing section 175(1)(c) to (e) and reducing the carbon dioxide targets that are in there. The effect of the repeal is that the targets for reducing the carbon dioxide emissions for the calendar years of 2025 to 2027 are removed from the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019d like to know from the Minister, given that he\u2019s going to have the ability to make those by regulation, is what will the impact on emissions reduction plan (ERP) 2 and ERP3 be? Will those need to be updated, given both of those emissions reduction plans have baked in emissions reductions that have been calculated by various measures, including the Clean Car Standard? In terms of the repealing of those baked in, if that\u2019s the Minister\u2019s intent just to put in place regulations that are as ambitious or more ambitious than what is currently in the legislation, then I\u2019d expect that we\u2019d see an improvement to the emissions reduction plans for those periods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt might actually only be emissions budget 2, but the Minister will be able to tell me that\u2014that it could be an improvement to that. But it is the way in which these two documents interact, and the fact that we are seeing through section 175 that that is the effect that is going to take effect. I think the committee needs to understand in terms of the Minister\u2019s time lines, his level of ambition, and what the interplay with the emissions budgets will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022f315dec398e54897a391cce42d1854f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f315dec398e54897a391cce42d1854f5\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I thank the member for the question. The answer to that is there is a review under way. Under section 167C of the Act, there are a number of criteria under which the Minister has to be satisfied and take into account and consider when setting the regulations. So in setting the regulations, I will be satisfied and have consideration, and undertake the appropriate processes as required under that piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebc340375b4b48e08cd69a3605c46e6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebc340375b4b48e08cd69a3605c46e6f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. From the Minister\u2019s answer, is he telling me he will not be satisfied if there is a negative impact on the emissions budgets\u2014so ERP2\u2014and he will not make a change that will have a negative impact on that emissions budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00224491d7d47226489b8e8df741b724bf91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224491d7d47226489b8e8df741b724bf91\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like some clarifications from the Minister because I\u2019ve been kind of waiting since the title to ask this question because it\u2019s pertaining specifically to clause 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274c438b1195e435a8a4728050d965e3e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Good idea! [Dr Xu-Nan pauses speech] Sorry, I just said \u201CGood idea!\u201D because it\u2019s specific to the clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237af9d86daed43109bd167df0e3e316c\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Playing the long game. Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, you have already mentioned\u2014and I appreciate the fact that you laid out what is in section 175A Land Transport Act around that \u201CThe Minister must, not later than 30 June 2024, initiate a review\u201D. And the Minister already mentioned before that if you initiate the review, there may not be any opportunities to make changes because what is being repealed\u2014section 175(1)(c) to (e)\u2014is already locked in to 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, can I just check: my presumption when it comes to something like this is that \u201Cinitiate a review\u201D doesn\u2019t necessarily mean that the review must be completed within a particular period\u2014it just means that we need to have a process in place to start reviewing for it. I\u2019m curious to know in this case when we\u2019re looking at section 175(1)(c) to (e) that when we are looking at the initiation of the review, what outcome is the Minister hoping to achieve by making the presumption that two years of data between 2023 and 2024 only would see a viable trend on how successful this was, and meets the criteria that the Minister has just laid out in section 175A(2) onwards in terms of things that the Minister must take into account?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo I guess my clarification that I would like from the Minister is: the current settings were put in place for us to see that five-year trend, but now, by removing that, and I don\u2019t know how long the Minister intends for this review to take place, but presumably the original intention\u2014if the Minister would like to clarify as well\u2014is to see that five-year trend. So the review that the Minister is intending on conducting: would that also take place in consideration of that five-year trend? And, if not, and because we are seeing the repeal of section 175(1)(c) to (e), if that\u2019s not the case, what are we able to perceive or how are we able to be enlightened by two years\u2019 worth of data? So if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecf93defad164ed8b68d792866bf754f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecf93defad164ed8b68d792866bf754f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The questions that relate to the review I think are outside the particular clause here in relation to what this clause is doing. The clause is doing two things. One is it\u2019s removing the standard for the next three years and then allowing them to be set by regulation. The review is under way in order to provide\u2014well: (1) to fulfil what the law requires, and (2) to provide advice as to what those standards should be. That work is under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI note the member is asking about time frames and all of those\u2014they\u2019re all good questions, but ultimately they\u2019re not necessarily part of this clause in terms of what this clause does. What I would say is I\u2019m not going to be doing a review for multiple years because that would not be\u2014ultimately, decisions need to be made, targets need to be set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAlso, the Government\u2019s position has been very clear: we support having a standard, but we also believe that there should be the opportunity for that standard to be amended by regulation rather than having it prescribed in legislation, which is what this clause is\u00A0doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002281631d2f0ee149138a49dad581a5c05e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281631d2f0ee149138a49dad581a5c05e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Still interested in a response from the Minister of Transport to the issues that have been raised by my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods, particularly just some clarification around whether he would or wouldn\u2019t make regulations that would, basically, be more to the detriment in relation to what emissions reduction plan (ERP) 2 and 3 looks like. So that\u2019s still on the radar for the Minister\u2019s consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got three Amendment Papers in my name\u201442, 43, and 44\u2014and given the Minister has not shut them down as of yet, they might be up for consideration. Well, they\u2019re up for consideration; whether they are up for him to take them on board or not, we\u2019ll wait with bated breath as we progress through this. The one that I do want to speak to specifically is 43, because clause 7 basically strikes through all of those listed specified targets in sections 175(1)(c), (d), and (e), and they relate to the various targets post the end of this calendar year\u2014so (c) relates to 25\u00A0January, (d) 26, and (e) 27, and then from that point after is when the regulations kick in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat my Amendment Paper seeks to do is still allow for the Minister to make regulations post the end of this calendar year, but what it does is it seeks to ensure that any of those regulations that are made under the regulation-making provision would be such that those targets that are made by the Minister would not be set at a higher level than in any previous calendar year. Effectively, I guess, you\u2019d call it a \u201Csinking lid\u201D so that we have a baseline where the targets for the current calendar year for a type A vehicle is 133.9 grams and for a type B vehicle is 201.9 grams. Then what we see if you look at those over corresponding years, the targets in the primary legislation are naturally going to decrease every year until the regulation-making power kicks in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, what Amendment Paper 43 provides for is an ability for the Minister to still make the regulations but a guarantee that the regulations that he would make would, effectively, never be an increase on any previous calendar year. So I invite the Minister to share his thoughts on that. If he is serious about meeting our targets in relation to the various agreements that we have signed up to as a country, I think that would actually mitigate a lot of the concern that has been raised by some who haven\u2019t been consulted. So I ask the Minister what his perspective or view is on that particular amendment to ensure that he still retains the power to make or set these targets by regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe only point of difference, of course, is that the sinking lid for the targets would continue to be on the incline. It would mean, potentially, that he could set those targets, or the Minister could set those targets, at the current rate and that that wouldn\u2019t change, but what it would guarantee is that there wouldn\u2019t be an increase in that. So I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c33d78c3daf74b739487c51f79838bb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c33d78c3daf74b739487c51f79838bb4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think the questions from the member Tangi Utikere and the Hon Dr Megan Woods in relation to the emissions reduction plan (ERP) and ERP 2 and 3 are good questions, but, ultimately, those are questions that will be dealt with as part of the review. This clause is quite simple. It makes two changes. One is to remove the targets and then allow for them to be set by regulation. There is already empowering provision and considerations that have to be taken into account when setting targets and what the Minister has to take into account as part of that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00223d6cdb6ba5bf4869a39e3365a407ae5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d6cdb6ba5bf4869a39e3365a407ae5c\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I have been waiting to ask this question: on clause 7: why did the Minister of Transport feel it necessary to delete the existing standards for 2025 to 2027? The bill could have been drafted to allow new targets to be set by regulation for those years without deleting the existing values in the meantime. Why did the Minister think it was necessary to delete the targets in the meantime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022aff3920e83b140b09a9461d50332e96d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aff3920e83b140b09a9461d50332e96d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Because what it does is it, quite simply, makes consistency between how targets are set after 2027, with those targets set between now and 2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf5bd27cd2664bf38042ef6e5a28338a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf5bd27cd2664bf38042ef6e5a28338a\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Although leaving the existing targets there in the meantime until new ones\u2014I mean, it would also be the case that there would be the consistent approach of being able to make new targets through regulation, even if we left the initial targets in the legislation in the meantime so there was some sense of there being a target for 2025, 2026, and 2027 in the interim. So why did he delete the targets before the new ones have been set?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022528fa90c347940408c6bb9f5b38dae91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022528fa90c347940408c6bb9f5b38dae91\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, there is a target in place right now for 2024. We\u2019re not removing or amending the target for 2024\u2014the one which is in existence now. There\u2019s a review under way, and that review will provide advice around what the target should be going forward. But this, ultimately, empowers those decisions to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00227b6a212d3edc45af9abb3ee901cd7980\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b6a212d3edc45af9abb3ee901cd7980\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Following on from that line of questioning from Julie Anne Genter, I have an amendment in my name that would allow for this. The point that she has made is the right one: we\u2019re not disputing the Minister\u2019s ability to create for himself new regulatory-making powers that would apply from 2024, but those could exist alongside the primary legislation, particularly 175(1)(c) to\u00A0(e), whereby he would be able to set other targets and a number of other things that are\u00A0set\u00A0out at 167B in the primary legislation that aren\u2019t covered by what is set out in the primary legislation between 175(1)(c) to (e). It would be really useful if he could comment on the interaction between section 175(1) of the original Act with section 167B of the original Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat I want to ask is, also, given that he has said there is no intention for him to remove 175(1)(b) from the primary legislation\u2014that\u2019s not an amendment that he\u2019s proposed\u2014he is, essentially, creating a power for himself. He\u2019s got a regulatory-making power which will apply between July and December of 2024 alongside the primary target in the Act: those primary legislation targets that are set out in 175. He himself has just told the committee that his regulation-making powers can exist alongside the primary legislation. I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister, then, why that cannot be the situation in 2025, 2026, and 2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002230e7b25991604bf5b867532149ef908a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230e7b25991604bf5b867532149ef908a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister for his earlier comment on Amendment Paper 43. I know that he has said that that will form part of the review, but I\u2019m interested, Minister: do you think it is a way in which some of the concerns could be mitigated, by effectively allowing for a reduction? Well, not even a reduction, actually\u2014just the targets as they currently stand for the current year to remain static through to whenever a regulation-making sort of date would kick in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other one is, I\u2019d just remind the Minister that earlier in the day he did say he was going to provide a response to the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2019s letter, specifically in relation to clause 7, so he may want to take up that opportunity given he\u2019d signalled that earlier in the day to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1e2c66176ed4a8eb93cd0b8010818c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1e2c66176ed4a8eb93cd0b8010818c6\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the opportunity to respond to some of those questions. The Government\u2019s position is that\u2014and I think it\u2019s clear in the legislation\u2014we are providing consistency with what the law says post2027 and what it will be post-2024. That is, the regulation-making powers will be used to set targets. We\u2019ve made it very clear we support a standard, but we\u2019re going to undertake a review. That review will provide advice in relation to setting those targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a number of tabled amendments in terms of these issues. Some of them are inconsistent with Government policies, such as Amendment Paper 42, which says to \u201Creplace \u20182024\u2019 \u2026 with \u20182028\u2019.\u201D That, of course, is inconsistent with the intent of the Government. There\u2019s others which seek to delete subclause 2, which, again, would be inconsistent with the Government\u2019s position, which is that we are seeking to be able to use the regulation-making power which already exists within the Act, to be able to make those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6726854a3b04379a307cefba0885d37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6726854a3b04379a307cefba0885d37\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Was it important for clause 7 to delete the existing targets for 2025, 2026, and 2027 because the Minister of Transport intends to water down the standard for 2025?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002250550db9200746b9a79719a0fca586e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250550db9200746b9a79719a0fca586e0\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to be clear that when we\u2019re talking about section 175(1)\u2014for anyone listening\u2014that sets some numbers for targets for calendar years in paragraph (a) for 2023 and in paragraph (b) for 2024, those don\u2019t change. What\u2019s changing is the targets in paragraph (c), being 2025; paragraph (d), for 2026; and paragraph (e), for 2027. They are all being repealed. Those targets are being repealed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe questions I\u2019ve been asking in relation to clause 6, as well, are about whether there is any replacement regulation for those standards. The standards are being repealed, the Minister is saying he\u2019s doing a review, and the Minister is saying that these changes enable regulations. They don\u2019t require regulations. So what, I think, this side of the House is quite agitated about is the possibility that the Minister will not make regulations that are better for the environment but that he will make regulations that are worse for the environment than those current targets for 2025, 2026, and 2027. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis is a great opportunity for the Minister to record on the Hansard that it is totally his intention after his review to set targets that will be better in terms of reducing carbon dioxide emissions for the environment than what is in the Act at the moment, and if he can\u2019t say that, then all of his arguments that we\u2019ve heard in his previous speeches go out the window, because it becomes a policy debate. The Minister has said over and over again that all that this bill does is enable him to make regulations and it does cost recovery. But, in fact, if the Minister chooses not to make regulations, or makes regulations that are of less effect in terms of reducing carbon dioxide emissions, then it is a policy choice to increase carbon dioxide emissions, and we can\u2019t see any analysis in the reports that come with the bill on that policy choice because we\u2019ve been told that there is no policy choice. At the moment\u2014and I\u2019d really like the Minister to answer this question\u2014it appears that it\u2019s discretionary for him to make regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe targets are gone, and that is a real problem, unless, of course, he can say on the Hansard and to the committee that he is committed to doing a review whereby the regulations will be better than what he\u2019s repealing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022277b632ed147443384cfcbef0ed9f31a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022277b632ed147443384cfcbef0ed9f31a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the position of the Government is very clear. What we are doing here is we\u2019re making the legislation the same for the years 2024 to 2027 in order to be exactly the same as what it will be post-2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAll of those questions that the Opposition are concerned about are questions which they should have been concerned about with the legislation that they passed themselves when they were in Government, because, actually, they put in place legislation that enabled regulations to be made and they didn\u2019t prescribe them for post-2027. We\u2019re simply bringing that power forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe legislation allows for, or requires, a review to happen. That review is under way. The Government has said that we\u2019re committed to a clean car standard, and we\u2019ll make decisions as part of that review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u00224ad139e7485840c59250fa4bd36f1240\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ad139e7485840c59250fa4bd36f1240\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002242200adc9ab94965a37bb6b2dc15c477\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242200adc9ab94965a37bb6b2dc15c477\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a couple more questions but remembering that it\u2019s quite a narrow part and the Minister has engaged in answering a number of questions. So I\u2019m going to go back to the Hon Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc7247b281f14e6bbdc65a14a4b58a33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc7247b281f14e6bbdc65a14a4b58a33\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It\u2019s a very short point, and that is that what the Minister of Transport just said gave us no comfort. To paraphrase somewhat, he said, \u201CWell, it was always open from 2007\u201D\u2014I\u2019m getting my decades mixed up; 2027. \u201CIt was always open from 2027 anyway, and so that\u2019s all I\u2019m committing to.\u201D\u2014nothing about there will be the minimum of what\u2019s in the current Act at the moment, with the standards he\u2019s repealing. Given that answer, my question was also: where is the policy analysis about that? A very simple question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022980a83c15ec644a994d29fdf1ff33980\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022980a83c15ec644a994d29fdf1ff33980\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I do just want to note that earlier in the debate we were told that most of the substantive debate was actually relevant to clause 7. So this is, I thought, the time when we would most get into the substance of the bill, during clause 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242ebaba54df14822bf1e387804b6bc3b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Except the questions are becoming\u2014the Minister\u2019s answering the questions and we can\u2019t guarantee that the members will like the Minister\u2019s answers to the questions, but the Minister\u2019s answering the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220518ed05dddb4bed82371f7598e7a9d9\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Madam Chair, I\u2019m going to just take the opportunity to point out to the Minister, because he doesn\u2019t seem to understand the difference between having 2025 set by regulation versus 2027 or 2028\u2014and the difference is 2025 is in six months and 2027, 2028 is several years away. So the difference is that if he were to undertake a review\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e0c45f1797743cbb3d81b8487f54914\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de282ada93434ffdb4b1421f164ffe1e\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have to ask a question. I\u2019m going to use my time to speak, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80dfbf2894543ff981f73ad44f54075\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ooh! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc044ffd20914e2e945fb1ba78286a67\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a721c8353a354d3e8b36eed1783b10f9\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229057e57526964c8d8888e7445d209e44\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234f6d1157948445b86b970b9336834f1\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: So the difference is that when the targets for 2025 to 2027 were set, that was years ago and the industry had several years ramp up to know what the targets were going to be. The fact that they can now be changed in regulation means they can be changed in the next six months and they could be changed to be more ambitious or less ambitious, therefore increasing uncertainty for the industry. Although given that the Minister keeps saying it\u2019s increasing certainty and we know that he\u2019s only really talked to certain people in the industry, we can, I think, assume that the only direction of travel will be to weaken the standards and therefore allow more highly polluting vehicles into the country than otherwise would come in, thereby increasing carbon emissions relative to no change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, earlier I read from a letter, a statement from Drive Electric\u2014they\u2019re not the only ones. There are a number of people in the industry who are very concerned about the change to the standards from 2025 to 2027 and saying that this clause and this legislation increases uncertainty around direction of travel and any changes to the standard has broad economic implications. It\u2019s unclear, but very likely it will reduce electric vehicle uptake, it will increase emissions from transport, it will increase imports of petrol and diesel relative to not changing the standard, which of course costs the economy and affects the current account deficit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI guess my main question now for the Minister is: in whose interest is this legislation and the changing of the targets? Is it for the vehicle importers who want to sell more highly polluting vehicles and earn more profit at the expense of New Zealand and at the expense of the climate? Is that the interest that the Minister is legislating in, and, if not, why has he not opened up consultation and spoken to other people in the vehicle industry, people who represent electric and low emissions vehicles? Does he admit that bringing in the legislation now and making the possibility of changing the target for next year is increasing uncertainty and direction of travel? Is it in fact as a result of cancelling the Clean Car Discount? As I know very well, the vehicle industry wanted the Clean Car Discount. They did not want standards without the Clean Car Discount. When we brought in the Clean Car Discount, what happened is it made a huge difference to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222316ff8c9eb4019b8571d575c0993c7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We are talking about another bill now, though. It would be good to come back to this one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f384bdbcfe5451b8dbbf001a0acf04b\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK. Those two bits of legislation work together and the combination of the Clean Car Discount and the Clean Car Standard together resulted in a substantial drop in the average emissions of vehicles being imported into the country. Since the Clean Car Discount was cancelled, it has massively increased the average emissions of the cars coming into the country. That\u2019s why now the Government has to water down the standard and create a lot of uncertainty in direction of travel, because they got rid of the incentive that was working to change consumer demand but also the options that are available for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOf course the Minister won\u2019t do this, but because we\u2019re not having a select committee process, I think that it needs to be said that the voices of the people who care about the progress of our country, who care about actually switching our fleet to lower emissions vehicles because it\u2019s better for everyone\u2014it is literally better for everyone except some overseas car manufacturers who can make a bit more money selling us higher-emissions vehicles\u2014oh, and also the people who produce oil, you know, and fund the Atlas Network, which is very influential to some of the people in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00221db64a34189247c082beb926ee936657\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221db64a34189247c082beb926ee936657\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I realise and take into account your guidance about the number of questions that we have had about the effect of, essentially, whether the primary legislation can still exist and doesn\u2019t need to be repealed, alongside the Minister\u2019s policy goals. The reason we need an answer on that, Madam Chair\u2014and I\u2019m going to ask the Minister again so he can have another go before his speech\u2014is that we\u2019ve had a Minister here resolutely continue to tell the committee that he is making a policy decision which only brings forward his ability to make decisions, and so there is no appetite from him in this stage of the debate to entertain that he would commit to setting ambitious targets which will meet New Zealand\u2019s climate goals. There\u2019s no intention to commit to the standards that already exist in the legislation that rachet up the requirements on the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a problem and I\u2019m going to offer him an opportunity to answer now, because he\u2019ll get back in that seat at the third reading and he will tell us that he is ambitious for New Zealand\u2019s climate goals. He will tell us that he is responsible as the Minister of Transport for reducing the carbon dioxide emissions of New Zealand\u2019s fleet. We have heard that from Ministers of the Crown today in question time. We hear it from the Prime Minister weekly. So I am going to ask the Minister: is he committed to using his new regulatory powers, which he has come to the Chamber and proposed in this bill, to ratchet up the requirements on the car import industry, and will he commit, as the Minister of Transport, to using his new regulatory powers, which we cannot scrutinise, to improve New Zealand\u2019s carbon dioxide emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00229ad4c15c9d6f451ba3575c780e77d1a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ad4c15c9d6f451ba3575c780e77d1a0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for their questions in relation to this clause. As I\u2019ve stated on a number of occasions, this is about the regulation-making power being extended from what it is post-2027 to 2024. Now, in the Act already, there is a range of considerations that have to be taken into account when setting those standards, and those are the things that I will take into account when considering the review, which is currently under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, I note that the member Tangi Utikere has been asking me to respond to the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2019s letter, which I think is a fair question. Effectively, the comment he is seeking in that letter\u2014one is around timing. We\u2019ve already debated that. The other one is around, again, more prescription around the use of the regulation-making power, and what I would put to the member is that there is in the Act already a range of considerations that have to be taken into account when setting the standard, which is exactly how I will undertake that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u00222a175079c28242928dc217431747f98a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a175079c28242928dc217431747f98a\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b47ba982c56481d87f430e4d6517fa1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9f73523b6d64657a35cb59e74b1a2b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9f73523b6d64657a35cb59e74b1a2b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to delete clause 7(1) set out on Amendment Paper 43 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226def2b9da1284fbb8052d4e7f7dcc6c1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0db240d0c4b4c9a98af145ab03c9fb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0db240d0c4b4c9a98af145ab03c9fb4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to delete clause 7(1) is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment that has not been agreed\u2014Amendment Paper 43.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause 7(2) set out on Amendment Paper 42 is out of order as being inconsistent with the principles and objects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to delete clause 7(2) set out on Amendment Paper 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227cd1da6dfb1e4aafbf6ba13ec2319a16\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022307970b8bd9044f0974559117b03fb54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022307970b8bd9044f0974559117b03fb54\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7 to replace \u201C2024\u201D with \u201C2025\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ea577d62822c421db0e8cfb009e7cc04\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220ba7c3a79a9042eabb7150300be4da07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ba7c3a79a9042eabb7150300be4da07\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7 to replace \u201C2024\u201D with \u201C2026\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225455e820832d46a3aab32b0dca207359\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf190b75a41c480abd8530694ad71ac5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf190b75a41c480abd8530694ad71ac5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to insert clause 7(3) set out on Amendment Paper 43 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227525f4a396214ce1a5610430e6962b80\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c0c638def40642bea5b4fd8063f389f2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 7 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000755\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000756\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022586efd90cff546839b42d4b47fadf8b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022586efd90cff546839b42d4b47fadf8b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002277855ebaceff4dceb1971a476f195091\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277855ebaceff4dceb1971a476f195091\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002232c4ffd6e0354cdba320ace1477d8258\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00227405315f1c364b16ac6fbccc4690beb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227405315f1c364b16ac6fbccc4690beb7\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill does two things. It amends the Land Transport Act to ensure that the Government is able to amend the clean vehicle standard by regulations rather than for it to be set in legislation. Secondly, it allows for the cost recovery of the clean vehicle standard process, rather than for that cost to be put across all New Zealand taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to retaining a clean car standard. We see that as playing an important role in ensuring that New Zealand gets the mix of vehicles that New Zealanders rely on\u2014affordable vehicles, cleaner vehicles, and the mix of the types of vehicles which can help New Zealanders with their day-to-day lives, including those who are on our farms, in our cities, and in our small towns. We want to ensure New Zealanders have that mix of vehicles at an affordable and increasingly sustainable approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EHowever, the last Government, when putting in place the clean vehicle standard, effectively, legislated what that standard should be right out to the end of 2027. And what this bill does is it says instead of having it legislated, it allows that those standards can be amended by regulation, just as they are post-2027\u2014those can already be amended or put in place by regulation. And the reason for doing that is because the law actually requires a review of that standard to happen. So it legislated a standard and then it legislated a review. But after doing a review, which it required me as the Minister of Transport to start prior to 30 June 2024, it did not have any ability for the standard to actually be amended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe reality is that if the standard is kept as it currently stands, we\u2019re going to get to a point where our standard becomes more and more stringent, to a point where New Zealand as a car market\u2014people importing vehicles and consumers\u2014will either have to pay more and more for those vehicles because there isn\u2019t the global supply for them, or ultimately they won\u2019t have the mix of vehicles that they rely on. So we\u2019re reviewing it to ensure we\u2019re getting the balance right in regards to affordability, the emissions reduction, and also making sure that New Zealanders can get the mix of vehicles that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThat review is under way and, post this legislation being made, will allow decisions to be made in regards to what those standards should be going forward. But this bill also ensures an appropriate cost recovery mechanism is put in place. For the clean vehicle standard operation, currently there\u2019s $11.8 million that\u2019s being given per year to the New Zealand Transport Agency to operate an IT system, which, by the way, is then used by people who import vehicles. Well, in every other aspect of importing vehicles, there are cost recovery methods put in place to ensure that the systems are user-pays and those costs are recovered. So this bill enables regulations to be set for those costs to be recovered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut the interesting thing is, despite the last Government allocating $11.8 million each year to the standard, it was actually only costing around $6.5 million to run. It just shows how the last Government actually operated. They\u2019d allocate almost twice as much\u2014almost twice as much, just appropriate it, which is what they used to do; the magic money tree\u2014just appropriate it. And then, of course, what\u2019s the incentive? \u201COh, let\u2019s just spend it.\u201D Well, actually, on this side of the House, we actually think that this is taxpayers\u2019 money and it should be treated far more carefully. And so that\u2019s what this bill will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo this bill makes two, I think, very sensible changes. I thank members from across the House for their engagement in the committee of the whole House stage. The bill is going forward without amendment because, ultimately, the decisions made by the Government allow that review to take place, any changes to happen, and that cost recovery method to be put in place. We stand by this bill and we commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2fd005ead294744bca1c98fa950af92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2fd005ead294744bca1c98fa950af92\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfc7bb19d0f34015a0a1f2f44b735059\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7bb19d0f34015a0a1f2f44b735059\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, the House has been sitting since the late hours of last night, all through today, to deal with this one piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe28035168d4dfa92cc4f73e92d139a\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Whose fault was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b46360b47217450d9324af0ea8b2d7bc\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, whose fault it was, Mr Foster, was this Government\u2019s, who clearly want to take this country backwards in terms of meeting our emissions targets and being ambitious, because there is absolutely no ambition in relation to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a piece of legislation that has been rammed through this Parliament, through all stages\u2014first reading, second reading, committee, and now third\u2014without any opportunity for any select committee scrutiny or engagement. But the Minister of Transport, as this bill has been making its way through the Parliament in the last 24 hours, has made very clear that consultation under his watch will take place, but it will only take place with the importers that this bill will affect. Those are the only people that he is interested in. He\u2019s been very clear about setting regulations. He will only consult with importers. He will not consult with any environmental NGOs. He will not consult with anyone else that might want to have a view on this. And this is just emblematic of the approach that this Government seems to take in terms of making decisions that will have a real impact on the ground, but they don\u2019t care about that. They are simply focused on being in it for those that will support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is very, very disappointing. Parliament has spent a number of hours reflecting on the fact that an officer of this Parliament, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, took the time, bevvied into this process by sending an open letter to the Minister of Transport expressing concerns and opportunities around the fact that this was a bill that would have huge implications on the environment. Yet there was not an opportunity for an Officer of Parliament to directly feed into that and has had to, effectively, issue an open letter to make his views known. And you know what? When those views were put to the Minister, time and time and time again, he simply said, \u201CWell, it\u2019s got nothing to do with that, actually, because it\u2019s got to wait for the review process.\u201D I think that is absolutely disgraceful, on the part of Simeon Brown, that that is the response that he has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere is a requirement for the Minister to consult whenever he is going to issue regulations and he\u2019s made it very clear around who he is going to consult with. You know, members on this side of the House have attempted to be very conciliatory in a number of the amendments that we\u2019ve put forward in this process. Now, the Government has had, in many instances, a lot of time to actually have a look at those Amendment Papers because they were tabled, I think, on the night or within the 24 hours of the Budget, so at least three weeks to pursue or peruse through those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, one that I thought was actually very sensible, and would have provided an opportunity for the Minister to have a look at, was the creation of the sinking lid, to ensure that the risk of, actually, an increase in those targets would be mitigated because it wouldn\u2019t be possible. But the Minister did not give any consideration to that and it is rather unfortunate that that is in fact the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere is no ambition here in this legislation. What we have currently as the state of play is a legislated specified list of targets that run us through the next three-year period, and then we revert into regulations as an opportunity. What is wrong with that\u2014what is wrong with that? The Minister has failed to address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis Clean Car Standard is a piece of legislation that was introduced as a way of workability in tandem with the clean car rebate or the discount. Now, this Government slated that within their first hundred days. They basically chopped out households from having an opportunity to access a no- to low-emission vehicle opportunity by saying, \u201CNo, no, we\u2019ve hit the target.\u201D As a result of that, we have seen the sales of those vehicles actually plummet. And this will do nothing to support the reversal of that as well. This was something that was phased in from December 2022, and its focus was primarily around driving down the carbon dioxide emissions for light vehicles, to target those who use light vehicles\u2014everyday households, others that have it in the fleet as well\u2014let alone the environmental factors that are at play.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe have heard time and time again in this House about the fact that we have to drive down our transportation sector emissions if we are going to make any real progress to delivering on the outcomes that we have signed up to as an international player. It\u2019s interesting when we look at the numbers\u2014there are 1,000 or thereabouts vehicle importers that import 300,000 vehicles each year into this country. Now, what is interesting is that this is going to be, effectively, a car tax that is thrown on to each vehicle. It\u2019s the only logical way that the Government will be able to administer this\u2014by saying, \u201CActually, we\u2019re not going to set an across-the-board fee, X amount of money that\u2019s required, spread that over the 1,000, and everyone pays the same amount.\u201D There are equity issues with that. What they are going to do is they\u2019re going to say that every single vehicle that is sold in\u00A0New\u00A0Zealand is going to have an admin fee tacked on and something else to meet the costs of this. So it is a car tax. It is something that they are putting on to households and purchases as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, this is clearly a Government that is looking to authorise and permit dirtier cars on our roads, dirtier cars in our communities, less efficient cars out and about. That would be vehicles that have higher operating costs over the life of the vehicle as well, and they are going to continue to penalise those for whom it is just a little bit more difficult to make the decision to actually migrate over to a no- to low-emitting vehicle. And that is rather unfortunate. It is important that we do have a sense of ambition. This is something that is lacking from this Government\u2014that they\u2019ve taken urgency to ram through this piece of legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa1565af7db941d6813b74437dc68258\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Coming from your side!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be68fb37250a4a82838f9b7bafe76220\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Mr Court\u2014that\u2019s got him going. You know, he\u2019s been sitting there silently for quite some time, and now whenever we tinker with the suggestion of no ambition from him and his party, as a member of this Government, that\u2019s what riles him up a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut there is no ambition from this Government to seek to drive down the emissions in this country. If we look at what the levels are contained here in the actual piece of legislation, there was a real opportunity for Minister Simeon Brown to come to the House to say to the Parliament and to those who are listening, \u201CYou know what? Actually, I give a commitment that the targets that I set as Minister of Transport will not be higher than the targets that exist here today.\u201D And he refused to do that. That was an opportunity to signal to everyone in this House and out there in the community that we are serious as a Government about driving down our emissions in the profile. He refused to do that, and I think that is just absolutely an unfortunate opportunity that has gone by.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAn aspect of this bill is to push those costs to the industry via the cost recovery. It\u2019s something that Minister Brown has talked about ad infinitum\u2014that this is about user-pays, it\u2019s about cost recovery. That will find its way on to the consumer. The money that is currently being paid by the public for an element of public good is going to make its way on to the consumer. And we\u2019ve had this conversation, as part of the committee of the whole House, about whether it was appropriate to amend as the principal Act, the Land Transport Act, or whether there had been some advice sought or some advice that may have been given. Actually, this sat more squarely within the consumer rights, consumer guarantee space; or maybe it sat in the energy efficiency, climate change space. We didn\u2019t actually hear from\u2014well, no, we did hear from him, to be fair. He said, \u201CNo, no, this is because this is what the previous Government did.\u201D Since when did previous Governments bind future and current Governments\u2014since when did previous Governments bind future and current Governments? Because, if that was the case, the Government wouldn\u2019t be on its mission and heading in the direction that it seems to be heading in as well. So that is absolute and utter nonsense\u2014absolute and utter nonsense. The Minister is simply running a ruler through all of these specific targets that will kick in, and that is really unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe focus of the Land Transport Act is around a rapid reduction in emissions, in terms of Part 5. This piece of legislation that\u2019s been rammed through the House under urgency at the moment over the last few hours, or many hours, is doing nothing to do exactly that. It is doing nothing to actually drive down our emissions profile as a country. What that means is there will be significant implications for households and for us as a nation as we fail, under this Government, to take climate change seriously, and we fail to meet the targets that have been outlined and the responsibilities that have also been outlined and underpin the emissions reduction plans 2 and 3. It is unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo, on this side of the House, we will continue to oppose this ridiculous, dire piece of legislation that seeks to do nothing but to put a further barrier on those that want to make a difference. I oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00224881eb679f71463aa1a16cf6158e4cd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224881eb679f71463aa1a16cf6158e4cd2\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Better things are possible. The whole reason I was motivated to stand for the Green Party and get involved in politics is because I am eternally hopeful and I have seen places that make better decisions than New Zealand currently does: places where people have warm, dry, affordable homes, where they use more renewable electricity, where they have lower fuel bills and they have cleaner air and kids walk and cycle to school and people are healthier and happier as a result. Ironically, in those very places that the National Party identified as the countries in the world with the \u201Cbest roads\u201D\u2014the Netherlands, Singapore, Japan\u2014what do all these places have in common? The majority of people in the cities are not using cars, and the reason for that is because they\u2019ve invested in alternatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAll of this is possible for New Zealand as well. But as long as we are going to be totally focused on cars and roads, as this Government is\u2014if they want to realistically do anything to meet our climate targets, which they say over and over they are committed to, we have to do something about the cars coming into the country and reduce those emissions, and we have to be evidence-based about what is going to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge my predecessor Jeanette Fitzsimons, co-leader of the Green Party, the late Jeanette Fitzsimons, someone who was way, way ahead of her time and calmly persevered in here. She set up the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, and worked alongside the Hon David Parker on fuel economy standards\u2014which were then thrown out by the National Government in 2008 and as a result of that, we were lagging behind the rest of the world. That\u2019s very clear when you look at these graphs from the International Council on Clean Transportation, which compare New Zealand, Mexico, Japan, Chile, South Korea, Australia, China, Brazil, India, the United States, Canada, the UK, and EU and shows that up until very recently, the average fuel economy of the vehicles coming into New Zealand was worse than all of those other countries. Nobody benefits from that here in New Zealand; nobody benefits from being a dumping ground for polluting vehicles. It just means we spend more money on petrol and diesel, and we have worse air quality and more people die as a result, and we have worse carbon emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the opportunity that we had to have evidence-based policy that was going to get results\u2014objective results\u2014that would benefit everyone in New Zealand as proven by the benefit-cost analysis that was done. But, in fact, the policies exceeded expectations. They were working even better than planned. The Clean Car Discount combined with the Clean Car Standard saw a drastic reduction in the average emissions of the vehicles coming into this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBefore we brought those policies in, the industry said, \u201CNo way, can\u2019t be done\u2014can\u2019t\u00A0be\u00A0done.\u201D That\u2019s what they said. But then guess what happened? We did bring in the policies, and it happened, and the average fuel economy of cars coming in\u2014and bear with me, I know the other side of the House doesn\u2019t like numbers, they don\u2019t like to get into the numbers\u2014went from 189\u00A0grams of carbon per kilometre to 136 grams of carbon per kilometre. It was decreasing at 50\u00A0grams per kilometre per year\u2014an incredibly fast rate. On that trend, the average emissions for May 2024 would have been 92 grams per kilometre, and now they\u2019re up to 161\u00A0grams per kilometre. So, objectively, ditching the Clean Car Discount, putting up the road-user charges for electric vehicles, and now introducing certainty in the sense that the standards for 2025 to 2027 are going to be watered-down means that we will get more polluting vehicles in New Zealand than we would otherwise get. Who benefits from this in New Zealand? Who? Anyone? Oh, a tiny percentage of people\u2014the only people the Minister of Transport is actually going to consult about this policy, because he\u2019s put this legislation through under urgency with no select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from heaps of people, actually, in the vehicle industry that they are very concerned that this means ditching the standards. It\u2019s introducing uncertainty and it\u2019s at a time when electric vehicles are increasing globally\u2014sales are drastically increasing, but they have plummeted in New Zealand and this locks in emissions for 20 years from now because brand new vehicles that come into the country, they\u2019re still going to be driven in 20 years. Every year that we import more fossil fuel vehicles that have high emissions, we\u2019re locked into those emissions for ages. So it\u2019s just a total own goal but, you know, entirely expected from a Minister who takes very seriously the comments on his Facebook page, but, rather than looking at evidence, rather than looking at what is going to be effective, turns everything into a culture war, makes it all about blaming certain categories of people when, in truth, we all have to face climate change together. The farmers are being affected by the floods and the droughts. We have to work together to solve this problem. And we were; we were solving it together. But those people on the other side of the House, they will use hate and division and utter propaganda to stop progress\u2014to stop progress. Why? Because the people who donate to them stand to benefit. A tiny percentage of people\u2014a tiny percentage of corporations and very rich individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EMy colleague Tangi Utikere said that these parties are not ambitious. Well, they are very ambitious for a very small percentage of people. They want a very small percentage of people, who already own the most and have earned the highest profits, to earn even more\u2014double-down on the status quo and pretend that letting a few people get richer or a few overseas corporations make more money at the expense of New Zealand\u2019s atmosphere and air quality is somehow going to make New Zealand better off as a country. What a joke\u2014what a joke. It\u2019s positively Orwellian, the propaganda and the words that come from this Government when they describe their actions. We had a Government policy statement today, supposedly about increasing economic growth and productivity\u2014what a joke. Every action it takes is setting us backwards on the failed policies of the 20th century that have led to New Zealand having an incredibly inefficient transport system, incredibly high petrol and diesel bills, and it\u2019s going to keep doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Minister said, with respect to this legislation, that it was increasing certainty for the industry. It\u2019s doing the exact opposite. As he admitted during the committee stage, putting it into regulation means that the standard for next year\u2014just six months from now, 2025\u2014could be higher or could be lower. He said he\u2019s done this to make it consistent with how the standards were going to be set two, three, four, or five years from now. The truth is it\u2019s increasing uncertainty and it\u2019s making it very clear that the Government is going to water down the standards irrespective of the evidence about the climate impacts, irrespective of the evidence about the economic cost to New Zealand of doing that, irrespective of the evidence of the health impacts. The Government is going to carry on down this track because a small number of overseas vehicle manufacturers will find it slightly more profitable because the rest of the world is not taking these polluting vehicles any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard the ACT Party say during this debate that, \u201COh, it\u2019s so great that the vehicle industry is making more electric vehicles and reducing emissions.\u201D The only reason they\u2019re doing that is because most of the rest of the civilised world has understood that in order to get them to increase efficiency, we had to have fuel economy standards and price incentives like the Clean Car Standard and the Clean Car Discount. That\u2019s literally what every other country in the world, and the EU, and China, and the US are all doing right now. When we water down the standards and we get rid of the price incentives, what\u2019s going to happen? Again, New Zealand will be getting the more polluting vehicles that are more costly to run, that are more damaging to our health and our cities. And all of this, for what\u2014for what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EDo the members opposite actually think that\u2019s going to make us better off as a country? If so, I\u2019m intrigued as to the rationale for how one could think that we\u2019ll be better off as a country by importing more highly polluting vehicles that cost more money to run and that mean we have to import more petrol and diesel. Why is that better for New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c37e4f16af8349e4a039d261a0449f25\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Listen to our speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c131b78f76d44e94aa095f6426353586\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I haven\u2019t heard anything that makes any sense from anyone in the Government parties on this topic, particularly not the Minister. But it\u2019s just one of those things that if they say something enough in the media, they know that a certain percentage of people will believe it. So they just keep saying, \u201CBlack is white, white is black, up is down, let the rich get richer and then we\u2019ll be richer.\u201D Oh, yeah, that\u2019s what\u2019s happened over the last 30 years\u2014that really works! Double down on neoliberalism, double down on lack of regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EActually, what I do see\u2014the common thread from the Government parties\u2014is there\u2019s a constant trade-off where we allow a small number of people to get richer, a small number of corporations to increase profits at the expense of life itself. It\u2019s more cancer, more car crashes, more climate chaos\u2014for what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00223d40616f7e8643369bb45b64f0c8c9ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d40616f7e8643369bb45b64f0c8c9ed\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, enough of this climate doom and alarmism. C\u2019mon, everybody! It\u2019s Thursday. It\u2019s Matariki tomorrow and we\u2019re going to go home soon. Some of us will go home in aeroplanes. Did you know that today Air New Zealand received its first shipment of sustainable aviation fuel made at Exxon Mobil\u2019s refinery in Singapore? How good. New Zealand is doing sustainability better than anyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe problem this bill tries to solve is that the previous Labour Government got it all wrong when it comes to clean vehicle standards. Instead of listening to all of the auto makers who said, \u201COh, it wouldn\u2019t be a good idea to introduce these standards years earlier than the jurisdictions where the cars are made. How about you give us a bit more runway to make sure New Zealand has affordable and efficient vehicles?\u201D But, no, the previous Government didn\u2019t listen, so this Government\u2019s here to fix yet another problem. We\u2019ve solved sulphur dioxide in diesel. We\u2019ve got some of the cleanest diesel in the world. We solved lead in petrol back in the 1980s. Now we can actually get lower-emission vehicles. But we\u2019re not going to get them the way the Green Party says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat was interesting was that the previous speaker, the Hon Julie Anne Genter, a former transport Minister, quoted Sweden and Norway as being great examples of having great roads and low emissions. Well, Ms Genter, Sweden is a nuclear-powered country that has one of the biggest mining operations in Europe and that makes an inordinate amount of money by selling weapons to its friends and allies. Norway has some of the biggest State-owned oil and gas sector in the world. Where does the money come from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EHow do we get lower emissions? Well, New Zealanders become wealthier, we can afford better cars, and they\u2019re lower emissions\u2014job done. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00223bc5465b73204885aef1c4b17d944401\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bc5465b73204885aef1c4b17d944401\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Look, this is a very small bill. There\u2019s been a huge amount said about so little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211e1cb0d9b1a48449e1d604ac49b6f18\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Commend the bill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223765b1ed383e4f7d817515870bd15adc\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: You didn\u2019t ask him to do that! This is a very common-sense bill. The first part of the common sense is that the Minister of Transport, the Hon Simeon Brown, has been asked, or required, to do a review. This just gives the Minister the ability to do something with that review rather than having to change the legislation again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe second thing it does is allow the Minister to get the powers now that he was going to get anyway in 2028, which, again, is common sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe third thing is that we heard from the other side that this about a new tax. Well, no, it isn\u2019t. What it is doing is it is taking a cost off the taxpayer and putting it on the user. That is not a tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EAnd the other thing to congratulate the Minister on is that he\u2019s actually managed to cut the cost in half. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e31612aa78fb4224904c2c38b1cf256e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e31612aa78fb4224904c2c38b1cf256e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Helen White.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00222c8d4f09549647b0a54b18d74ee239bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c8d4f09549647b0a54b18d74ee239bf\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019d like to remind the House that in the three years that the standard will be taken away by this bill and replaced by what is a discretion over criteria, 2,200 people every year will die of pollution because of the emissions of petrol and diesel vehicles, and 6,600 people will die. There will also be 27,800 people hospitalised, and that\u2019s our kids. That\u2019s our kids with asthma. That\u2019s a whole lot of illnesses that are utterly preventable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat this previous situation did was it put in place a target so that the industry knew that it had a place it was going and it was utterly certain about that pathway. What the Minister of Transport has done is taken away all that certainty. I listened very carefully to what the Minister talked about when he was given repeated opportunities to assure this House that he would not use his new discretion to lower the situation with regard to the safety of New Zealanders through these kinds of chemicals. He was offered that opportunity repeatedly and he did not take it. So people who are listening today should know that those are real lives, those are real injuries, and this Government has not actually prioritised the public interest here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I want to come to the tax issue, because that\u2019s another way New Zealanders get hurt. Yes, I do call it a tax. What we have here is a removal of what actually sounded like, from the Minister\u2019s speech himself, only $6.5 million of administrative cost which was being paid by the taxpayer in recognition of the fact that this is important for our kids, it\u2019s important for our older people, and it\u2019s important for our people in our cities. It\u2019s a health issue and it\u2019s an environmental issue, so it\u2019s a public good. So we were doing that as a Government and I\u2019m proud we were doing that. Instead, it\u2019s been removed, and all that cost will be put into a pool that will be paid presumably, actually, ultimately, by the consumer, because it\u2019s going to the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI just want to actually make people think about where that is. Who will be actually visited with that cost? Well, actually, people who run an electric vehicle and people who run a petrol vehicle. How the hell is that fair? How\u2019s it fair that all of the injury is being done by one group and yet everyone shares the cost? Isn\u2019t it interesting, and a logical issue, that that\u2019s what this Government has done? It\u2019s visited the cost on people who have done no harm, who are doing no harm, who are doing the right thing. There\u2019s no nuance in this. This is a bill that gives the Minister the discretion so that he can water down standards. That\u2019s what he\u2019s doing. There might be a lot of weasel words around it, but that\u2019s why I cannot support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u0022257b17aa4eff4d2cb2b94ad878a1a510\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022257b17aa4eff4d2cb2b94ad878a1a510\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This bill enables the Minister of Transport to change the clean vehicle standard carbon dioxide targets through regulations without consultation. Is he likely to strengthen or weaken those targets, or, potentially, leave them exactly the same? We don\u2019t know, and the importers don\u2019t know either. It seems anti-democratic to leave those changes to the whim of the Minister, who has consistently refused to answer during earlier debates who will be giving advice on what those targets should be. Random comments from donors and voters probably don\u2019t really match those of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, the Climate Change Commission chair, the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research scientists that have probably just been sacked, or all of the other scientists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262e7c2baca0248df8c22eade0dc90092\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve been replaced with AI\u2014it\u2019s much cheaper and faster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ab1b260181446d794be16eeccd5df81\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: And it gives you the shitty little lies that you want as well\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d9f003fddf9434a8a193df67a8ba281\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, all right. Well, there has been one or two words creeping into Parliament the last couple of days; we\u2019ll just calm down and perhaps not use some of those words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f96d6a69b566407c8b1b22305d7e6661\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I shan\u2019t mention artificial intelligence any more, then, Madam Chair. Let\u2019s give the certainty of direction to the vehicle industry, because this kind of Government policy has a really significant impact on the vehicle market, on what\u2019s brought in here. That lack of any emissions standards\u2014I remember when garages were about to bring in emissions testing equipment, when they would have done it during the normal warrant of fitness process. Quite a lot of garages made that investment, and then\u2014good idea evaporated. This country\u2019s average carbon dioxide emissions from vehicles are among the highest in the world, and the rate of improvement needs to be as rapid as it was after the first introduction of these targets. Look, the Government\u2019s decision to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235b69cb84db64e6b9b1a2bb5bfb0ebf4\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Honestly, these people used to be opposed to GE\u2014I mean, come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c476ecc32b446f2ac720f8f9e898be0\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Just ignore him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7fc6a9f2889493bb467f48d67261c2a\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Who? I didn\u2019t hear anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea472fa79df7404b90971ccaaa95fe1f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not related to the bill; don\u2019t worry about it. Keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231bfa611be2649cdb8706382ddfbed4f\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s decision to delay the entry of agriculture into the emissions trading scheme puts even more pressure on the transport\u2014[Interruption] When the Clean Car Standard was introduced, several submitters at the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2014do you remember what select committee was, for bills?\u2014wanted the targets to be more ambitious. Many of those submitters might\u2019ve hoped that they could educate the members sitting in the select committee, but there is not a great deal of evidence of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EBut have we stopped having a climate emergency? I think the people in Wairoa, Heretaunga, Haumoana would say the climate emergency is here, it is now, and if it\u2019s this bad now, it\u2019s going to be a lot worse in the next 20, 30, 40 years. Whose grandchildren are you condemning to coastal retreat from their much loved homes? We need to adapt, for sure, to what can\u2019t be avoided, but we have a moral obligation to do what we can, and the ridiculous thing is that this is a win-win-win opportunity: you increase the targets, you save people money, you clean up the air, and you make us more productive altogether.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThis Government seems to me very focused on trade-offs. It\u2019s either the environment or the economy; it\u2019s either \u201CFreddie the Frog\u201D or the motorway. Well, I think you can actually put them together and have a productive economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022018aa9d1d64945779ae57ec860b12786\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: We agree with you, wholeheartedly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281be90d708484eebaf18db0c58fe6e1f\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I think I might like to have that on record, that I\u2019m agreed with wholeheartedly. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022718b3d8626bd4cb1b1c5afdd15a84ed5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s on record\u2014it\u2019s on the Hansard; it\u2019ll be on record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292580e84f7294d5a8bdbfaddd05c3231\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: So I just want to say: for what reason, rather than private lobbying instead of public scrutiny, does this Minister want to amend the targets on his\u00A0own?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u002291796ee92fe34e4c99bf6f90dfe36670\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291796ee92fe34e4c99bf6f90dfe36670\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Well, great news: we have almost passed this bill\u2014great news. But the greatest news of the day is the fact that the Brynderwyns are open, Northland is open, and you\u2019re all welcome to come and visit. Please do; we need people to come and visit. The businesses of Northland need it. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00221b9d3508ddc243c98de53e0adc376259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b9d3508ddc243c98de53e0adc376259\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we\u2019ve been here since about 11\u00A0p.m. last night debating this bill, which has moved through all stages under urgency. We haven\u2019t had answers to our questions from the Minister. We had a valiant attempt by the Minister Erica Stanford when she was in the chair, but we haven\u2019t heard from the Minister of Transport about why he is giving himself new regulatory powers when, in fact, they could be set through the mix of what exists currently. And he also hasn\u2019t been able to be clear with us whether these are clean car standards anymore or whether he has created dirty car standards in the wrong piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m glad we\u2019re here. I\u2019m glad we\u2019ve got this time in the House to be able to run through things. I want to thank everyone around the House who\u2019s made fulsome contributions to the debate, to thank my colleagues in the Green Party for their contributions, and to thank the number of Green Party MPs who have been down here keeping the debate lively and engaging. Also, thanks to those members of staff who have put up with us as we have been\u00A0going through this urgency into the long Matariki weekend with no clear line of sight about when it will finish, so thank you for putting up with us as we\u2019ve been going through this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAlso, I just want to bring us to the outstanding questions that Labour members still have about this piece of legislation. Because the Minister is right: at the end of his committee stage, he did get to the point where he was saying, \u201CLook, all of these questions are good questions, but they\u2019ll be open to Labour members to ask when I review the regulations as they are now.\u201D So let\u2019s recap what those questions are that are still open.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWho will the Minister consult with? Will it be only the importers, or will he actually consult with those members that he is required to consult with under section 175(1) of the primary legislation, which he didn\u2019t repeal. He didn\u2019t propose to change his consultation obligations, and so he has some when he sets these regulations, and one of those groups that he will be required, under the common law, to consult with is M\u0101ori. He has come here into this House during this committee stage and told us that he will not be consulting at all with M\u0101ori who will be interested in this and its effect on te taiao\u2014and good luck to the bloke. I\u2019ve told him several times that he\u2019s opening up the Government to further risk on this, and look, we\u2019ll have a fun time in the Regulations Review Committee, I\u2019m sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAnother question that is still open is whether the Government\u2019s policy position is, in fact, to ratchet up the requirements on the car industry to bring in more clean cars or not. The Minister refused to answer that in committee stage, although he did continuously say in his speeches that he was still committed to New Zealand\u2019s climate change obligations. So, really, the question remains: will he do his part as the Minister of Transport to impact the profile of emissions in New Zealand\u2019s transport sector so that his ministerial colleagues\u2014like, just today, the Hon Todd McClay\u2014can answer in question time that they are committed to New Zealand\u2019s international climate change goals, or will it be that he will not use his regulation-making powers to do that? And will it be that Ministers of his Government will then stop saying things like that because it will become clearer and clearer to New Zealanders that this is a Government intent on taking New Zealand backwards and resiling from its long-term commitments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThose are the questions I still have in my mind. But it has been a privilege to be a part of the committee stage on this bill and all three readings of it today. Thank you to everyone who\u2019s been a part of it, and we\u2019re voting against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022f03aec6f1a1b4c91913d8d62e19e308b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f03aec6f1a1b4c91913d8d62e19e308b\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ll keep this contribution short because we have had a really fulsome debate across the process of this bill coming through the House. There has been a long process through the committee stage, really well fleshed out. The Minister gave superb answers from the chair. There was really great leadership from the Minister when he was in the chair. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002246319cedd5e4440a83ab6ef4f2e59f2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246319cedd5e4440a83ab6ef4f2e59f2f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The sad thing about this legislation is that the Government hasn\u2019t yet worked out what it\u2019s going to do to reduce light vehicle transport emissions, given that they\u2019ve knocked over the Clean Car Discount, which was a feebate scheme that was highly successful. By the end of that scheme, 75 percent of the vehicles coming in month by month\u2014that\u2019s about 25,000 per month\u2014were either hybrids, plug-in hybrids, or fully electric vehicles. Since they abolished that scheme, the ratio has changed, and the number of cars being imported into the country that only have internal combustion, diesel or petrol power, has doubled, so that now more than 50 percent of the cars coming in are not hybrids, plug-in hybrids, or electric vehicles. So the Government is even more reliant on the Clean Car Standard to drive the efficiency that we need in cars that are coming into the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAs has been noted in this debate, once a vehicle enters the fleet, it lasts for about 15\u00A0years, and until it\u2019s worn out, it\u2019s used and it\u2019s pumping out those greenhouse gas emissions. So the only chance you get to improve the efficiency of the fleet is as those vehicles are being added to the fleet, because once they\u2019re here, someone uses them until they\u2019re completely worn out. You\u2019ve got to get them at the point of import, and the Government has ruined that. They could have come to this House with legislation that said, \u201CLook, now that the Clean Car Discount is gone and the number of these more polluting vehicles has gone through the roof, we need a tougher standard, and we\u2019re going to do it through that standard.\u201D But they haven\u2019t, and they haven\u2019t done that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis, of course, is typical of the Government\u2019s non-performance on climate issues. Having signed up to the zero carbon Act, I believe, as a ruse to get voting support at the last election, they\u2019ve turned back the clock on everything. Agricultural emissions\u2014it is just not economically responsible to exclude agriculture, the 50 percent of our emissions, from a price-based measure. That doesn\u2019t mean to say they should go to zero, but they should not be cross-subsidised by the rest of the economy. We protected them, in the last Government, through the split-gas target, meaning that methane doesn\u2019t have to be reduced to zero, like long-lived gases do, but we do need a price-based measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThey say that they\u2019re going to rely on the price of carbon under the emissions trading scheme to drive emissions reductions, and yet the private sector doesn\u2019t believe them, because the private sector price for those emission units has dropped from $75 a tonne to $50 a tonne, a decrease of 30\u00A0percent. So the private sector knows that the rhetoric from the other side is not matched by the stringency of measures that are needed to drive a price on carbon, which is, in turn, necessary to drive the emissions reductions that we need as a planet. We can\u2019t support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfbf8881f7a0470b91cc98065ae6e909\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfbf8881f7a0470b91cc98065ae6e909\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E To use the racing parlance, this Government has achieved the trifecta. We\u2019ve scrapped the subsidies on electric vehicles, which were neither self-funding nor sustainable, which saw over $500 million paid out of two years at the expense of hard-working farmers, tradies, and taxpayers. Of course, in the first 100 days, we also scrapped the ute tax\u2014remember that? The ute tax. Farmers and tradies are now no longer unfairly punished. Now, the Government is delivering more workable, more realistic clean car standards. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab071f5fd9bb45a584ad7f7477fd485f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab071f5fd9bb45a584ad7f7477fd485f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. I find it extraordinary that that member Cameron Brewer just stood up and celebrated three great lurches backwards\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edee15d8cf7d4326b52103a150f1d137\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Imagine his grandkids seeing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c83eabe415da4ac6b170f146d616a35c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in respect of our climate. The member to the right of me says, \u201CWhat will he say to his grandkids when the tide comes in?\u201D There is a real problem there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMany speakers have spoken very eloquently on this, but my real objection to this is that it\u2019s part of the Government\u2019s programme to move decision making away from this House, to move it away into the executive and into the shadows. These are some of the most important decisions that can be made in respect of the Government of New Zealand: how we achieve our climate targets, and how we address the climate catastrophe that\u2019s facing us in the world\u2014how we uphold our international obligations to be good citizens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had a long committee stage about the details of the bill. But in the big picture, what we\u2019ve got is the Minister taking power unto himself so that he can make decisions without\u2014as Arena Williams said\u2014any real, effective consultation or transparency and just choose. In his third reading speech, I was here in the House and I heard him say that we\u2019re going to make the clean vehicle standards more workable. In the language of the other side of the House, what that means is less carbon-friendly, more emissions. Just as they have with agricultural emissions: let the agriculture sector off the hook again because they don\u2019t want it to be an undue burden. What that means is unfettered emissions. What this means is more emissions from our car fleet. As David Parker said, the cars that come into today will be emitting for 15 years. That\u2019s what the Government on the other side is happy to see, to see a more carbon-emitting fleet for a longer period of time than would otherwise be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b61388706c7d454ab6b29d52d9cc3d0c\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: The cleanest vehicles that have ever been made in the history of mankind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6a9bd7dafb14c8db6f449185d478097\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go\u2014here we go. The ACT Party, the friends of the oil sector. I can smell the coal tar on your breath. It comes as no surprise at all, to me, that the friends of the oil industry want to see dirtier cars. This is the \u201CDirty Vehicle Standard Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course we\u2019re going to oppose it, because, on this side of the House, we stand for a sustainable New Zealand that stands up and adheres to its international obligations and makes decisions now and into the future so that we can look at our children and grandchildren and know that we were good stewards of this country, unlike that Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00226193372c21494e898c061f944229943c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226193372c21494e898c061f944229943c\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101nawatia a Matariki\u2014happy Matariki, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243f8e7ff6d1642e191b2e31b03d34fc6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022697528f42ced4147af55d886990c3c55\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: As the last speaker in this debate, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c3871c894db44893a52e6a8df43a347d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 13.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000856\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002233f3903941924badb1b67190ed5429bf\u0022\u003ETherapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227aebabeb33e64a9c968d2babefaf1e59\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00221f538afb8e3142b6931e564cb33ae119\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f538afb8e3142b6931e564cb33ae119\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Therapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252457553792b41f3be231e387a46ac69\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022719d924ade14493581bce273fe3edd20\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Therapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Health Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 1 November 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EToday, the Government is keeping its promise to New Zealanders in repealing the Therapeutic Products Act 2023. At the moment, medicines and medical devices are regulated under legislation that is 43 years old, the Medicines Act 1981. This legislation is broadly agreed as being out of date and no longer meeting the needs of the public, industry, and practitioners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe Therapeutic Products Act was intended to replace the Medicines Act with a more modern regulatory regime, but this Government disagrees with the approach proposed in the Therapeutic Products Act. We spoke out against this Act during the election and we promised to repeal it, and that is what we are doing. The Government considers the Therapeutic Products Act would have imposed unnecessary costs and paperwork on consumers, industry, and exporters, with minimal benefits for consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003ERepealing the Therapeutic Products Act responds to the concerns of industry, it responds to the concerns of consumers, and it responds to the concerns of practitioners, who all collectively felt the Act would lead to over-regulation of low-risk products, impose unnecessary costs, and lead to products becoming more expensive or limit their availability or even remove availability. Repealing the Therapeutic Products Act shows that we are listening to the thousands of submitters who opposed the bill when Parliament considered it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EOf concern to many, the Therapeutic Products Act created a single regulatory regime for all health products, whether they were pharmaceutical medicines, devices, or natural health products. In repealing the Therapeutic Products Act, we are listening to the concerns of the submitters and listening to ordinary New Zealanders who considered that natural health products should be regulated in a separate, stand-alone bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI have spoken extensively to those in industry who had grave concerns about the Therapeutic Products Act and how it was going to be implemented. Those involved in the medical device industry were concerned we were going to follow the path of the EU, where red tape meant that people were not able to receive the devices they needed. Those in the natural health products industry were concerned that people would no longer be able to buy products that are currently on the shelves in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe Therapeutic Products Act would also have required natural health product exporters to obtain New Zealand market authorisation, even though they were meeting the standards of the importing country, and that is what really matters. This double regulation would have imposed red tape and cost instead of encouraging economic growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe Therapeutic Products Act was due to commence in 2026. Its provisions are not yet in effect and significant work and funding was still required to put in place the regulations necessary to support it. This means that repealing the Therapeutic Products Act now will not have any impact on industry or consumers. Industry will not have to change anything they are currently doing and consumers will continue to be able to access the same health products. Health practitioners will not be distracted from their important work by the need to familiarise themselves with a new bureaucratic regime at this time, and health officials will not have to spend further time working on implementing a regime we do not believe would have been effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThis Government wants workable, practical policy that improves people\u2019s lives. We need to ensure that the health policy is there for all New Zealanders to support better health outcomes. Once the Therapeutic Products Act is repealed, we can continue work on better regulation that will ensure New Zealanders have timely access to medicines that will back our innovators and exporters and which will allow our doctors and our other health practitioners to deliver quality healthcare every day. I commend the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8668cc8aecf47039414571cc4d71921\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8668cc8aecf47039414571cc4d71921\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002292871310ecf046e3a3aa57adc3e27518\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292871310ecf046e3a3aa57adc3e27518\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, fire up your DeLorean. We\u2019re going back to the future, back to the Medicines Act 1981, because what this Government proposes to do today is to repeal the Therapeutic Products Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe Therapeutic Products Act has been worked for, for 15 years, by officials in New Zealand across three different Governments, and what it sought to do was to modernise medical regulation in New Zealand. Let me name some of the treatments that have come into existence since the Medicines Act 1981: immunotherapy, mRNA vaccines, minimally invasive surgery, CAR T-cells, gene therapies, 3D printing, implantable devices\u2014all of these modern technologies that some on that side of the House say they\u2019re desperate to spend money getting but they are now abandoning a form of regulation for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThose products need to be appropriately regulated. Let me tell you why: because when you do not regulate them, people get hurt. I want to tell you about the people I have looked after with implantable devices that have had defects\u2014that have started to rot their way out of their body\u2014because they are not properly regulated. Think about the women who have been harmed by surgical mesh in this country, for which we do not have a system for going back and finding out where particular devices were used, and then going and telling those women that, actually, there\u2019s a problem with the device. That is what the Therapeutic Products Act did, and that\u2019s what this Government is repealing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t know if, in this short time, I have the ability to go through the errors that were in the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Casey Costello\u2019s speech, but here\u2019s a few. The first was that the Minister said that there was a single form of regulation in the Therapeutic Products Act. Absolutely not true: medicines are regulated differently from devices, are regulated differently from natural health products, are regulated differently in some ways from rongo\u0101. There is also a lack of clarity in the Minister\u2019s remarks about how the bill was actually to be implemented. There is less clarity for industry now than when they had the opportunity to work through how regulations were to be brought into place, because now it\u2019s apparent that the Government doesn\u2019t have a plan at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re going back to there being no regulation. In fact, it\u2019s less clear for industry. It seems to me that this Government can\u2019t agree on how it\u2019s going to take this forward, because if they could, they\u2019d just bring an amendment. They\u2019d bring an amendment, they\u2019d change things about medical devices, perhaps, because I agree\u2014I accept, though I do not agree, that members on the other side of the House might have a different view on regulation than we do. But if they had a view, they would make an amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EInstead, they\u2019re removing all the options of regulation and, as the Minister confessed, they don\u2019t want to spend the spend the cost of making the secondary regulation. So what happens as medical technology continues to advance? What happens when new products enter the market? Well, there\u2019s no way\u2014there\u2019s no way\u2014for medical devices, other than being listed on one website by the Ministry of Health. There are no other protections around them. There is no regulation. That\u2019s what we found out during the pandemic\u2014there was no regulation of rapid antigen tests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI also want to remind new members of the House what happened during the COVID-19 pandemic. We did not have a way of enabling the vaccine roll-out because we have no way of having emergency authorisation options in the Medicines Act 1981, so we had to pass retrospective legislation in this House in order to be able to have the vaccine roll-out. So none of the lessons learnt from COVID-19 are incorporated into the Medicines Act 1981. That\u2019s why when there was a monkeypox outbreak in Auckland, we also had to run that vaccine roll-out without publicising it because there was no opportunity to have public health emergencies responded to in this Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI have stood by too many New Zealanders\u2019 bedsides when they have been hurt by products that are inadequately regulated. The Therapeutic Products Act sought to prevent some of this harm. This Government is taking New Zealand backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad7abb9629c84b7ea727e05e86b13f4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad7abb9629c84b7ea727e05e86b13f4d\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. E mihi atu ana ki a t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei w\u0101. He t\u016B tautoko t\u0113nei i taku hoa o te \u0100petihana, a Ayesha Verrall, i t\u0101na kauwhau i t\u0113nei\u00A0rangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker. I acknowledge all of us at this time. This is a position of support of my colleague of the Opposition Ayesha Verrall and her speech today.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI stand on behalf of the Green Party to oppose this repeal. The Therapeutic Products Act is taking\u2014well, actually, this Government is taking us back to the future. This legislation was needed and it was overdue. When I think about the links of consultation, engagement, that the team has undertaken since 2014 at the outset of the work towards building a new regulator, and then what I experienced out on the floor within hap\u016B and iwi, I say moumou\u2014that\u2019s a waste. Ultimately, this bill repealing the Therapeutic Products Act is yet another piece of legislation where this Government is taking us back\u2014just like Te Aka Whai Ora on the chopping block, just like smokefree laws on the chopping block. The work was well overdue. When we have legislation that sits back in 1981 for the Medicines Act, and then we also have our natural supplements regulations from 1985\u2014way not fit for purpose, way out of date, and not enough regulation to control its flow into our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, I want to talk about the engagement and the consultation that I saw and the robust nature by which officials from te Manat\u016B Hauora - Ministry of Health and Te Aka Whai Ora led out in the consultation process. Within hap\u016B and iwi, we engaged because we had concerns. We had the officials come to our marae\u2014Parawhenua Marae in Tai Tokerau. There would have been probably about 100 whanaunga, and those 100 whanaunga were angry about the potential inclusion of rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori. What I want to share with you is that, actually, the officials did a great job in listening. The officials were awesome in the way that they heard the concerns from our people and they took the heat from te iwi M\u0101ori. But those that gathered also shared that there needed to be engagement, there needed to be shared understanding, and also standards and quality assurance in the rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori space, so it was a work in progress. So I mihi to Peeni Henare for his work in listening and being a listening guide for te iwi M\u0101ori in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori is a whole system of hauora, led by m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. This isn\u2019t wishy-washy stuff; this is indigenous health systems and it\u2019s a taonga guaranteed through article 2 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori practitioners have gathered and the experts met, and Peeni Henare listened. So I mihi to Peeni, because our people understood that we needed change in terms of therapeutics products, but also that rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori wanted to stand up through its own tikanga, its own standards, and work alongside as a complementary medicine to Western science. That\u2019s that mahi tahi that we see as tangata whenua and tangata Tiriti working together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EFurther, in February 2023, I had the honour of facilitating in the forum tent at Waitangi. I invite my colleagues of the Government to join us in the forum tent at Waitangi some time\u2014it\u2019ll put hair on your chest. Our people are fiery, and they want to share their whakaroa openly within the forum tent. Peeni Henare joined a panel alongside other M\u0101ori health experts to talk about the importance of hauora M\u0101ori, but also about therapeutics products, because it was so hot within the M\u0101ori community. This legislation actually moved and changed, because consultation was robust. The Government listened. The officials took the messages back into the ministry. They worked on the legislation to provide a dual pathway whereby we can still have robust regulation and then rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori could have that separation and the ability to self-regulation, aka rangatiratanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo I think that it\u2019s a shame that we\u2019ve gotten to this point, because did we really need to repeal? If there was a need to cut some corners or some red tape that the industry apparently is asking for, why do a full repeal? I think it\u2019s a wasted opportunity after so much work has gone into it to build a robust machine that was and is and could have been something good for all New Zealand. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0055bb9183b49b1b4f17026f2d48a34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0055bb9183b49b1b4f17026f2d48a34\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It gives me great pleasure this afternoon to rise and speak to the Therapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill. It\u2019s actually a great week for healthcare this week. On Monday, you might remember we had an amazing announcement for Pharmac, whereby 54 new medicines will be listed and 175,000 Kiwis are going to benefit from that. These are new technologies that are actually going to be made possible under the new regulatory regime that we\u2019re going to be bringing in once we repeal this piece of rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EI actually can\u2019t believe\u2014I was just listening to the last speaker H\u016Bhana Lyndon\u2014that\u00A0I cannot find a single stakeholder that it is actually in support of the Therapeutic Products Act (TPA). Patients were upset. Industry was upset. Everyone was not happy with that Act, so what we\u2019re doing today is making a pragmatic decision. We\u2019re repealing something that actually isn\u2019t actually even in force, and we\u2019re putting in place proper regulations so we can get the latest and greatest medical technology to Kiwis faster and we can deal with natural health products in an appropriate way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThis is very, very exciting. We are moving forward into the future on this side of the House. We know that there\u2019s great innovation and technology on the horizon, and we\u2019re going to make sure New Zealand has the best system in the world to get that to Kiwis faster. Health conditions that we couldn\u2019t even imagine could be treated and cured years ago are now on the brink of being tackled, and we\u2019ve got to make sure we have the systems in place to do it. The TPA was not that piece of legislation; it was awful. ACT voted against it when it was passed through the House and we\u2019re voting in support of its repeal today. We are going to be putting in place modern regulations to ensure that modern treatments get to Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThe natural health products sector have been very upset because, again, they were lumped into this and their actual concerns have not been listened to and weren\u2019t taken on board. So despite there being 15 years of policy development, it was wasted because people were not listened to in the last few vital years when this was put together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EI am very excited that we\u2019re actually going to be doing something on this side of the House to put in appropriate regulations. I look forward to working with Associate Ministers of Health the Hon Casey Costello and the Hon David Seymour on doing that, because I actually do know a little bit about this area, as has been well reported. My background in the medical technology industry will be a great asset. While I\u2019m not financially invested in that sector any more, I am intellectually and emotionally invested in that sector and I\u2019m going to make sure Kiwis get these amazing treatments that we need. So I\u2019m very happy to stand here this afternoon in support of this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u00222dc3503942a449568b918949c0baef8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dc3503942a449568b918949c0baef8c\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E What a pleasure it is to listen to my friend Todd Stephenson over there\u2014that was very good. Hey, look, this piece of legislation, at its first reading, fulfils a coalition agreement between National and New Zealand First. We\u2019re repealing the Therapeutic Products Act. Later this year, we will get together and we will consider proposals for fit for purpose legislation. We will come up with new regulatory solutions for natural health products. I note that the current Therapeutic Products Act caused a lot of concern from that segment, and rightly so. Look, Labour\u2019s approach didn\u2019t work, it wasn\u2019t popular, we are repealing it. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022965d91e744c34020aeba1cd3f4d6df87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022965d91e744c34020aeba1cd3f4d6df87\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Carlos Cheung\u2014the reason I say that is we\u2019re on a first reading and we cannot pass on the Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec2a22f5fde341ee8ac862fd9a23b9d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec2a22f5fde341ee8ac862fd9a23b9d2\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I was listening to the other side of the House just now talking about engagement and talking about the problems of people. Let\u2019s talk about the truth. The truth is that in 2023, the Health Committee reviewed more\u00A0than 16,500 submissions, and over 95 percent opposed the Therapeutic Products Act. I think this is better law, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac076277034b46c5bbedd532d52a9cff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac076277034b46c5bbedd532d52a9cff\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, well, well, we\u2019ve heard it all now from big pharma; we\u2019ve heard it all now from the people who don\u2019t understand this bill whatsoever. We\u2019ve heard it through the election campaign, where they told and promised the New Zealand public, \u201CWe\u2019re going to change the way Pharmac do things. We\u2019re going to change the Therapeutic Products Act.\u201D Then, they got here and went, \u201COh my gosh! That\u2019s actually a bit harder than we thought it was.\u201D Actually, they\u2019ve got to come to this House and explain, through the process of democracy, how they\u2019re going to do that. We haven\u2019t seen that today. What we\u2019ve heard is a repeal with no answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMr Stephenson just gave us a glimpse into what the ACT Party are going to do: they\u2019re going to ram regulations and laws through in this House, probably under urgency, not listening to the people. That\u2019s why we\u2019re here today\u2014that\u2019s why we\u2019re here today. I can tell Mr Stephenson, in the 135 meetings I had up and down the country, he wasn\u2019t at one of them. He absolutely wasn\u2019t at one of them. I went to maraes, convention centres, offices, and health centres, and that man wasn\u2019t there. So he can stand up all he wants; his view on this reminds me of his view on the arts: it\u2019s non-existent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhen this bill is interrogated as it moves forward, we want to see from this Government what\u2019s going to replace it, because all we\u2019re seeing is repeal and that\u2019s about it. Nothing else. We\u2019ll probably be here in urgency, which I know that side of the House hates, which is why I\u2019m going to take my full five minutes today. Buckle in wh\u0101nau! Buckle in! We\u2019re going all the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we know with respect to rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori and the natural health products is it\u2019s very clear that it\u2019s important to listen to the people. When I went around the country to make sure that we heard the voices of the people, we managed to find a way forward in order to support that sector\u2014so much so that ACC now allows rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori to service those wh\u0101nau who need to access rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori, who choose to access rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got a bit of rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori for the other side of the House: if you grab the patete leaf, you boil it till it makes a pulp, you rub it on your ears, and it will help your hearing. That\u2019s what the other side of the House needs to do. Under the old Therapeutic Products Act, we made sure that that was still possible. We not only protected rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori; we allowed it a future to continue to help service the health needs of this country. So we will be looking towards what this Government is going to put in place to replace this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe other thing is we want to make sure, as Mr Stephenson said, we listen to the people. If we are back here in urgency, pushing through the next piece of legislation on the therapeutic products, they\u2019re going to hear all about it. For far too many times over the past eight months, they have sidestepped democracy in this country in the hope that they can help their friends in big pharma. I\u2019m going to put it out on the record because that\u2019s what\u2019s happening. We heard it very clearly from Mr Stephenson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, what I want to know, as I look across at the three-headed taniwha which is the coalition Government: this time, is it the tail wagging the dog, or is it the head wagging the rest of the tail? Because what I heard from ACT today is a clear insult to the public of New Zealand who shared their views on this particular legislation. They did so for over 15 years. Now, ACT come in here and all of a sudden Mr Stephenson\u2014who\u2019s probably five foot one at a stretch\u2014now thinks he\u2019s six foot 10. That doesn\u2019t happen that way. We\u2019re going to be here to push the ACT Party, who got a small percentage of the party vote, who are now trying to wag the tail of the dog.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis is going to be a fascinating debate because, as we talk about rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori, as we talk about natural health products, as we talk about the instruments of health that my colleague Dr Ayesha Verrall talked about today, everyone in this family of MPs here will know somebody who\u2019s had to use those particular facilities. They\u2019ll know somebody who has had a bit to do with the rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori. In fact, I suspect that as we debate this bill, many of them will have a come to Jesus moment. They\u2019ll stand there in a moment of clarity and they\u2019ll say to themselves, \u201CBy crikey! Are we doing the right thing? Maybe we should go back to how it was. Maybe the 15 years of work by experts on this know better than the people who are here in this House.\u201D I\u2019m going to put that on the record here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOf course we oppose this amendment bill\u2014of course we oppose it. I look forward, as this Government introduces more regulations, to holding their feet to the fire on this matter. But that\u2019s OK, because I\u2019ve got another rongo\u0101 for when your foot burns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u002258085245e5b742a49e6e4cb0b727a5d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258085245e5b742a49e6e4cb0b727a5d5\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is with great honour that I rise to speak in support of the Therapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill in this first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273e8f8c31df440139d07020288cc78e0\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Say it like you mean it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223a5efe756c843529c839d7ca967f708\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Now, the National Party opposed this bill when it went through. We do agree that there needs to be modernisation of the regulation on therapeutic products. Unfortunately, this legislation is not it. It just offers a tangle of red tape and increases crippling compliance costs on many in our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EThe things is, when this went through Health Committee last term, there were a number of areas we opposed it on, and I\u2019ll just mention two. One of them is including software into this. This is some innovative stuff that we can really use right now. We don\u2019t need to regulate it. We do need to make sure that we are being innovative, cutting edge. The other one is, of course, the regulations that if we\u2019re going to export some of our natural health products\u2014and New Zealand does have a lot of these manufacturers\u2014they were going to have to be held to a standard that is greater than the importing country. Once again, it\u2019s a sign of red tape going nuts. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002235d99f5e5fc94fc195920b6de9a5f327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235d99f5e5fc94fc195920b6de9a5f327\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you so much. Gosh, National don\u2019t want a bar of this bill, do they? In fact, that\u2019s all they could put up. They\u2019ve barely taken a call, they\u2019ve focused on two specific things that were the only things that they had a problem with, they got one of them factually incorrect, and they got the other one completely the wrong way round. So that was very, very interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ELook, this is a clear and unequivocal demonstration of a Government that just simply doesn\u2019t have a plan, and they are quite literally taking us back in time and taking us backwards. As my colleague the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall has said, they\u2019re taking us back to 1981. Robert Muldoon was Prime Minister, the first ATM was installed just down the road in Wellington, and Brendon McCullum was born\u2014and we know that he grew up and scored lots of test runs and has since retired. That\u2019s how long ago it was\u2014the Medicines Act 1981. It\u2019s a medicines Act that doesn\u2019t cover huge numbers of the products that are now routinely used in our health system, in a modern healthcare system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, in comparison, the Therapeutic Products Act, as we\u2019ve said, was the fruition of a huge amount of work over a series of Governments over 15 years. It was modern, it was comprehensive, and, most importantly\u2014something that hasn\u2019t been mentioned, and it certainly wasn\u2019t mentioned by Associate Minister of Health Costello\u2014the fact is that it was risk proportionate. It was a risk-proportionate regulatory regime for therapeutic products\u2014and, no, for the people that have said that the natural health product industry was against that, because, actually, half of them weren\u2019t. Half of them were the ones that were right behind this because they wanted to be able to export. They needed to be able to make healthcare claims and medicinal claims, and to be able to do that, it required legislation. So you are going to be leaving those people out to dry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d2fe8259b77409b8081978c232f936c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9f3546ac4994507be426610019ea2d8\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Not you, Madam Speaker\u2014obviously, not you. I know you wouldn\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe Therapeutic Products Act, as we\u2019ve said, was just needed. It really kind of blows my mind that if this Government had any plan\u2014and let\u2019s remember, I don\u2019t necessarily think that this is the National Government. I remember sitting with Dr Shane Reti all through this process, listening to all of those thousands of submissions\u2014which many of you haven\u2019t heard, and most of you don\u2019t know anything about\u2014and he only had a couple of small problems with it. So this is actually New Zealand First and ACT. As Peeni Henare said\u2014tail wagging the dog. If they had a plan, they would have had an idea of what the two pieces of legislation that they needed to introduce to cover the repeal were, and they don\u2019t, because they haven\u2019t done the work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo, bearing all of that in mind, you\u2019ve got to admit that\u2014you know, why wouldn\u2019t you just do some amendments? Why wouldn\u2019t New Zealand First advocate during those coalition negotiations that they wanted to amend the Therapeutic Products Act? I believe it\u2019s because they were operating under misconceptions about what it was. We had a submitter come to the select committee who raised an apple and said, \u201CThis is a therapeutic product.\u201D, and it was like: \u201CNo, that\u2019s an apple. That\u2019s regulated under the Food Safety Act. It may be healthy, but it\u2019s not a medicine.\u201D So this Therapeutic Products Act was weaponised from the very beginning by some groups that used it as a means to organise people for their own purposes, and this is the outcome of it. We have a Minister and a party that has fed into that, and it is now causing this huge amount of disruption and it will leave us with a massive gap in our regulatory framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe don\u2019t support this bill. It\u2019s a rubbish bill. It\u2019s a pretty bad way to finish off the very exciting urgency period that we\u2019ve just stumbled our way through, and, hopefully, the National Party will see fit to make some sort of other comment on it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00224c745fb79a594cfea0d5e9dd8fa38cb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c745fb79a594cfea0d5e9dd8fa38cb5\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s an honour to be the last speaker in this first reading of the Therapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill. Other speakers in the House have said pretty much everything that I might have said, so I just will finally say, M\u0101nawatia a Matariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd5eedb822454bc0abf8869b9c8da544\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Therapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000916\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225d0318b5645b40a6a3fd246cfbed2f64\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E: The question is, That the Therapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill be considered by the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002296dccbbba371496a9a370b724042eaa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296dccbbba371496a9a370b724042eaa8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db1a2d7f8bd449008072c399f66ae346\u0022\u003EInstruction to Health Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022899d3497efef4689870570859ad8b2fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022899d3497efef4689870570859ad8b2fd\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Therapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill be reported to the House by 1 November 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226757a58a47054065849e9ac93a856991\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226757a58a47054065849e9ac93a856991\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until Tuesday, 23 July 2024. Happy Matariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240625c70916ace8c146e081500748d94aa928000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.08 p.m (Thursday).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"