"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d297e1a564c146788d37c742b8fde9e3\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 25 JULY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022547f6151257a473fa2f693761780bf11\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 25 JULY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260a09a7cda1b4e919886196c057bbcee\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002205d42d0cdc5a41db813bb9dc9e9437ce\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220c477af99eb24935ace4cb49b76fdf88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c477af99eb24935ace4cb49b76fdf88\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220dadbbd89a8b496e9df915d3743b59fe\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022baf3d1fa62ee45aba670bef3990664f9\u0022\u003EJanet Elsdon Mackey\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223c49de99f20b4d918dd9f4f0cc0c0030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c49de99f20b4d918dd9f4f0cc0c0030\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I regret to inform the House of the death, on 22 July 2024, of Janet Elsdon Mackey. She was a member of this House from 1993 to 2005, representing the electorates of Gisborne, M\u0101hia, and East Coast. During her time in the House, she served on the Education and Science Committee, the Justice and Electoral Committee, and the Finance and Expenditure Committee. She was also the deputy chairperson of the Primary Production Committee and was the chairperson of the Law and Order Committee. I desire on behalf of the House to express the sense of loss we feel and the sympathy for the relatives of the late former member, and I ask members to now stand and join with me in observing a period of silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMembers stood as a mark of respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b87dc16aa6474c7ca5897ee510261ba0\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e586c31b61d14c789a74688b8c380b95\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00229012ff67dc9f4e1fbd7288a712f5cc5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229012ff67dc9f4e1fbd7288a712f5cc5b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week, the House will consider the second readings of the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill, the Gangs Legislation Amendment Bill, and the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. We will also consider the third reading of the Local Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill. Wednesday will be a members\u2019 day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022342749c261a14223b19c7a6f5861b44a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022342749c261a14223b19c7a6f5861b44a\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E When can we expect the Government to reintroduce the Regulatory Systems (Social Security) Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022df4776765c5349038c5d3f54ff877ffd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df4776765c5349038c5d3f54ff877ffd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Well, maybe before or after the next season of Finding Nemo or Celebrity Treasure Island. I don\u2019t watch TV.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002294ffd6d491404f15812bcb7cf9de6940\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294ffd6d491404f15812bcb7cf9de6940\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a78a148293f849cfa4309da8e3e892f7\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022752cdfafd76e4d2ebd1c749583ba584d\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba127224218d4e24b7feb6acd10d4d14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba127224218d4e24b7feb6acd10d4d14\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are no petitions to be presented. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00224ea7972aad184c6dabd737d4d4a06681\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ea7972aad184c6dabd737d4d4a06681\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENg\u0101i Tahu Ancillary Claims Trust, annual financial statements for the year ended 30 June 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2024 to 2029 statement of intent for the Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand and the Aviation Security Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2024-25 statements of performance expectations for Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand and Aviation Security Service, Airways Corporation of New Zealand, Commerce Commission, and Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2024 to 2028 strategic intentions for the Public Service Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229b3fa8feddb34f9e86c2d01dfb31c58a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b3fa8feddb34f9e86c2d01dfb31c58a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022df39c7760fd347848a0cde175f54dd32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df39c7760fd347848a0cde175f54dd32\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the review briefing on the 2022-23 annual review of AgResearch Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Health Committee on the review briefing on the 2022-23 annual review of the Health and Disability Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Social Services and Community Committee on the 2024-25 Estimates for Vote Arts, Culture and Heritage and the 2024-25 Estimates for Vote Sport and Recreation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022150b30f00e1341f5977659e91cdc8d7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022150b30f00e1341f5977659e91cdc8d7a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The reviews are set down for further consideration. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b9ac8d4e1c9477dacaf68484f23bb38\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbb784b9352a4b7bb2141b98b54051d2\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022709c37c6129d463b89205942979e98b0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022904c2b8721c84aa18e05dfbe26073eb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022904c2b8721c84aa18e05dfbe26073eb4\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CThe rising number of visitors to our tax calculator reflects Kiwis\u2019 keen interest in understanding how the Budget will personally affect them through the savings we\u2019ve achieved and the tax relief we\u2019re implementing\u201D; if so, how many of the 513,000 people that have used the calculator are unique individuals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc872f997efa44249576e155af6f4a14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc872f997efa44249576e155af6f4a14\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Look, I thank the member for her question, because I absolutely stand by that statement. To the second part, the 513,000 refers to users. I\u2019ve been advised that the calculator has now been used by 517,024 users, up 3,928 users since just yesterday. Separately to the question, I am advised that the number of users is different from the number of views. The number of views is far greater at 759,588. I\u2019m also advised that in the Wellington region alone, in which her electorate is based, there have been more than 65,000 unique users of the website. So I\u2019m advised that the one person sitting at home on their computer or phone, looking over and over again at how much tax relief they will get and thanking the Government for standing up for working people, represents just one user.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ffe7df3b4a542b5b806030b3f15c25a\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How many of those users that have viewed the calculator found out that they are, in fact, worse off because of her tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ab0fffc6c324d0ca91a2320c0e820c9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: That number would be extremely small. The reason for that is that there is, as the member has previously been advised, a small group of people, around 5,000, who will receive no reduction in the income they get each fortnight\u2014they\u00A0will receive the same income\u2014but who at the end of the year may be eligible for a slightly lower tax refund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e610059c98148d0a53ccceeca74a723\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How many, if any, will personally benefit by receiving the full $250 as promised by the leader of the National Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad76d27680e847a58583f489b1238d62\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m advised that more than 3.5 million New Zealanders will benefit from tax reduction. The amount of tax reduction will vary depending on their personal and family circumstances, which is why I recommend they visit the tax calculator. And I\u2019m advised that fewer than 3,000 people would benefit from $250 a fortnight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222faabc639cdc4d0ba0b5493019b39b5b\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How many, if any, will personally benefit by receiving the full $271 as promised in her Tax at a Glance brochure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b263e7148f924b1fbbf216f6d9c58a17\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have that information. But, actually, that scenario was not one that I campaigned on. It was a scenario that, when I was advised by my tax officials, I said, \u201CWell, look, the maximum anyone could get is $250.\u201D They said, \u201CNo, Minister, you\u2019re wrong. Some people will benefit by more.\u201D And I said, \u201CIsn\u2019t that great?\u201D At the same time, I thought to myself, \u201CIsn\u2019t it sad that members opposite have voted against every single dollar of tax relief?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210b2f82da05c46ed90c0b6401a4089ad\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How many users that have used the calculator are net better-off under her Budget when some are facing a $45 per week increase in insurance, an average of 9.6 percent increase in rates, higher prescription fees, and higher public transport costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226480b5a982b4489a814dbadb2c5a1815\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Every single New Zealander is better off with a Government that\u2019s getting on with rebuilding the economy, who\u2019s getting on with restoring value for money in Government spending. If the member wants to cry crocodile tears about not enough tax relief, why did she vote against it? Working people will remember that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227cb5fcf6609648069e7254c0d6ec8ce7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u00220477accb67aa4fbf8021ebdeb1b2fd84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220477accb67aa4fbf8021ebdeb1b2fd84\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: What does she say to Tupua Urlich, a survivor of abuse in State care, who said of the proposal to repeal section 7AA from the Oranga Tamariki Act, \u201CWe know time and time again they place children with strangers who go on to physically, sexually and mentally abuse these children.\u201D and \u201CWh\u0101nau means more than mum, and dad and uncles - we have a wider hap\u016B and iwi. There is no way the state can turn around and say there is no one safe enough to look after these children\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00223dcbfc33229743908bf7754c75e0bdab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dcbfc33229743908bf7754c75e0bdab\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I would say that I am truly sorry for what he has been through. Some members in this House, as well as members of the public, may not be aware that just because a child is in the custody of Oranga Tamariki, it does not mean they are placed with strangers. In fact, around 70 percent of children in care are placed with wh\u0101nau in what are called remain or return to home placements, or in wh\u0101nau care placements, and this means they are being looked after by family or wh\u0101nau. We know from reports such as the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor\u2019s Returning Home From Care report in 2023 and Oranga Tamariki\u2019s own Safety of Children in Care reports that children in these placements were being harmed or abused, and are still at risk of being harmed or abused. A child must be safe first. If this can be with family, hap\u016B, or iwi, then this should happen. However, unless we face up to the fact that harm happens everywhere, including within family, hap\u016B, and iwi, then we will never properly address this national shame. Too often, a child is killed in this country by someone they know, someone that is meant to protect them, and someone who is meant to love them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022218834ee62084f2991adeaf63602212b\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Was the royal commission of inquiry into abuse in care considered prior to announcing the intent to repeal section 7AA, and, if so, why did she not wait for the recommendations before moving forward with the bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d7a9b7cee96404183282ce6a198646f\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I do not take that report lightly, but what that report also showed us was that for far too long, Governments and Ministers and people in places of power took too long to take action, and didn\u2019t do what was right because they feared the backlash or they feared that they may not succeed. But what I will say to you is that I will do everything in my power to succeed, and everything I do is with the safety and the best interests of children at the forefront of my mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f37d0be6daa44270a764b8c485ae17db\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How does she reconcile the proposed repeal of section 7AA with the report\u2019s finding that \u201CThe State did not take the steps it should have when it saw signs its care system was failing people in care. Those steps should have included: \u2026 legislation specific to care settings to give effect to \u2026 te Tiriti o Waitangi, particularly tino rangatiratanga\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c10da5ced9c40abb7913bda83d57c5c\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I once again acknowledge the failures of the past, and I can\u2019t take back the failures of the past, but what I can do is make sure that we are doing the right thing for our young people and putting their safety and best interests as the first point of order when we are making decisions around their safety in care. To me, that is the right thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9c7b2e6c77e4e65800d31d064bf01c5\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the quote on the inquiry, \u201CThis must be bigger than politics\u2026 This work will extend beyond the life of any one Government, so we should work together to make sure this happens.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dac02ee51ad14a29b04d94ad1a45aa76\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc77e387638c470886650e761c296dd7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, just a minute\u2014just a minute. I know that passions run very high around this particular topic, but we still need to follow the decorum of the House and at least try to hear some of the answers given by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5988e86db8455eb4cbb69d4e365b56\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. We stood in this House yesterday with joint agreement across all parties that what happened in the past cannot happen again. We have to make sure that everything we are doing in this place is with the best interest of our kids at heart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212d18d28fcde415ca18c9a9c680f598e\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that section 7AA, when applied correctly, would redress the report\u2019s findings that, \u201CCritical rights, such as those guaranteed to M\u0101ori in te Tiriti o Waitangi and human rights, that should have protected people in care, were ignored and overlooked altogether.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e29d8d089e04abb9b7c91fe0572469b\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: The repeal of section 7AA is about wanting there to be clarity within Oranga Tamariki that the interest in safety and the wellbeing of children and young people are at the forefront of all decision making. This is the core purpose of Oranga Tamariki, to care for and to protect children and young people. Oranga Tamariki continues to work in partnership with providers, communities, M\u0101ori, iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau, and nothing about the repeal of section 7AA will affect the support services and the programmes Oranga Tamariki provides for M\u0101ori or the partnerships it has and will continue to develop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208d067d871c94ed2a0c4210aa7d3dc80\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What would she say to the survivors who not only experienced neglect, abuse, and torture at the hands of the State but also shared in the report that disconnection from whakapapa and te ao M\u0101ori \u201Ccompounded the impacts of the abuse and neglect they suffered.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229015f50f5df440ddb383c8dad1accd4d\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Once again, I would say I am sorry for what they have suffered. Nobody should suffer anything of what they have experienced. I would never ever say that people should not have their whakapapa connection. I have never said that and I have constantly said that I find it important that young people know where they come from, but their best interests and safety must come first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d472155e2649cc9b3250a8db8ac51a\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Will she commit to discharging the bill to repeal section 7AA as a sign of good faith to survivors and their moemoe\u0101; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221768ab5393be46ba8731b0a1f49bf587\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot say this enough and I will keep saying the same thing: the best interests and the safety of our young people need to be the very first thing we are considering when it comes to the care of our young people. This does not mean that wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi are not a consideration; it just means that safety and wellbeing come first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223874e0d475d44df6a4225711cf6eb820\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d52d3df33c7349fc9e91101889245ada\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d52d3df33c7349fc9e91101889245ada\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: When was the last time personal income tax rates or thresholds were adjusted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f586df769337421b99826fe96786c8ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f586df769337421b99826fe96786c8ef\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The last time personal income tax rates or thresholds changed was on 1 April 2021, when the top tax rate of 39 percent was introduced. However, this was, of course, a tax increase. Finance Minister Steven Joyce did announce personal income tax relief in Budget 2017, but this was reversed later in the year by Grant Robertson, so personal tax rates and thresholds have not, in fact, been adjusted since 1 October 2010, 14 long years ago. That will change next Wednesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d90cb8f8470417d848a0ba1b4807356\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: How much will people get in tax relief?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b0aa9d6103472f9d9799b87cd248b6\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Bugger all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242b61f102b7048ab867afec910a5e551\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: To the member opposite who said a phrase that is not very parliamentary, I\u2019d say that they\u2019ll get a lot more from us than you were promising them. It does, of course, depend on individual circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1015faeb9f2401299c751d4b92d2163\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What are you taking away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d02a792ebf04eb687d459477c149df9\u0022\u003EReuben Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: How much has the rent gone up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f99ddccc04144f8880c2e0da6cded1e9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what you were promising them was zero. And what you did was vote against every dollar of tax relief. I actually encourage people to go to budget.govt.nz, check the tax calculator to see what tax relief is coming their way. As the Hon Barbara Edmonds was keen to quote me saying, the rising number of visitors to our tax calculator reflects Kiwis\u2019 keen interest in understanding how the Budget will personally benefit them through the savings we\u2019ve achieved and the tax relief we\u2019re implementing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b1ce6d47121427c9f9ff6230bf9f9ac\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: How will households benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292b8fd8f5bf5416ba3193bc94221cac9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, people and families are in a wide variety of circumstances; hence, the calculator. But, in summary, I can tell the member that an estimated 727,000 households will benefit by at least $75 a fortnight; 187,000 will benefit by at least $100 a fortnight. On average, households will benefit by $60 a fortnight, and households with children by $78 a fortnight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285623999b95246d0b0b54bc371c24793\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: How many thousands of people, again, have now used that Budget tax calculator?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b7efef6504a44f99cbd8b271dff655c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, I was asked this patsy question earlier. As I told the House yesterday, that number was 513,000 yesterday. It has risen overnight. I\u2019m sure it will rise overnight again, the more we talk about it, but, actually, the number of visits to the website has increased several more than that, because that is the number of individual users as opposed to the number of visits, which has been a much larger number. My reflection would be that New Zealanders are very interested in tax relief, because they haven\u2019t seen it for 14 long years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0b2a776ceaa438b9bdc4a255af98625\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next member, I just want to say, in this question, interjections are supposed to be rare and reasonable, but they\u2019re part of the general sort of interaction that occurs in this House, but on this particular question and the one that will follow, I\u2019m playing particular attention to those interjections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022982d1ffc2c7e440ca3e2c1c3cb78f9be\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa50e585dc2d4dbba4f1b77faecdabd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa50e585dc2d4dbba4f1b77faecdabd0\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00220d0912f64eea495b9a5e8dd6749cc97d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d0912f64eea495b9a5e8dd6749cc97d\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d8dc789cfa84d2f81ec78fe95106a04\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Do any of the 10 boys in the boot camp pilot have a history of care and protection, and, if so, what does she say to abuse in care survivor Tupua Urlich, when he says \u201CPart of acknowledging the harm that has been done is taking a more empathetic approach to the healing for our young people. You don\u2019t just inflict trauma and abuse upon them and, when those signs and symptoms of your failures show up in the community, lock \u2018em up.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223faec83a42ca4d30b4a9f7c24152057a\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: To the first part of the question, yes, I would assume that they have had care and protection before, because they are in a place that has care and protection under Oranga Tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfbd3353919f4a6fae16a6142f0f9824\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What are specific examples of how the boot camps will incorporate a te ao M\u0101ori approach when nine out of 10 of the young people participating are M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267263b24253c46b692d11e2b49fe4d9a\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: There will be a wide range of activities, and there\u2019ll be a wide range of things that these young people will take part in. Each young person will have a full assessment before they come into this programme, and we will make sure that everything that is done around these young people is done to their needs and their best interests. We have many people who have come forward to bring their skills, and even in te ao M\u0101ori space, to make sure that these young people get everything they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c8c1073fbe46c9a0809a122bcc8179\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What are specific examples of the day-to-day military-style activities that young offenders will participate in, in the boot camps that she launched last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d46628d025c940bda08b6e1298b40123\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the exact activities in front of me, but I have set the expectations that those will be made available to the young people. It may look different on a day-to-day basis. This is not something that will be a one-size-fits-all approach and we must be able to adapt as we go along, and that\u2019s all I have to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9a059f7a0a4430db6bb9e90c213df7d\u0022\u003EHon Brooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement: \u201CNo one, regardless of their race, gender, or any other identity, deserves to be in a situation where they are abused and denied basic care, and I am committed to doing everything within my power to ensure that no child or young person in New Zealand suffers abuse in State or faith-based care.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022240c359a709b400291efc3490d4e849f\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and as I\u2019ve said before, and as I will emphasise over and over again, what we have read in those reports and what comes up over and over again is that nobody did anything. It was easier to stand in this place and do nothing than do what is right. I will stand here and make sure that every decision and every moment of my time here\u2014that the best interests and the safety of our children come first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e911396f796a48f08b4a53f6482368f8\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Can she guarantee that the issues that have been reported in youth justice facilities recently, such as roughing up children, silencing informants, and inappropriate relationships with staff, have been addressed and will not occur at the boot camp at Te Au rere a te Tonga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b03c42c989a4afbbfba84ce8f951b6c\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: We know, just as recently as last year, that this behaviour was happening. We cannot accept that that is happening, and I have been to visit these facilities personally more than once to make sure that they know that this behaviour will not be tolerated. Changes have been made, and we will make sure that there is transparency and availability of support when needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba7bdf78b76242e2ab5bad0600b68713\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b141ddbda6cc4be99542f9c41856c464\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b141ddbda6cc4be99542f9c41856c464\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What recent announcements has he made about the Wairarapa and Manawat\u016B commuter rail lines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00223931a8bb0daa4e7b8b5cbc52fc1bb75f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223931a8bb0daa4e7b8b5cbc52fc1bb75f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E This morning, I announced alongside the Hon Nicola Willis and the Hon Chris Bishop that the coalition Government is investing into the Wairarapa and Manawat\u016B commuter rail lines, which will deliver a fleet of 18 new trains as part of a funding agreement between the Government and the Greater Wellington and Horizons regional councils. This Government is investing in the lower - North Island commuter rail network to improve service reliability, reduce congestion, and support economic growth, and now we\u2019re getting on with getting the work done. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022597b08ee21a4449284f60d9c66b63373\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e4be0d6e609499fb658fbc204107b48\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait till the House is silent and not engaging in little conversations left, right, and centre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dcde9d3d2d0407d82c26c9839690e8d\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: What impacts will this have on travel times between the Wairarapa and Wellington?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a38c59d5fd6454787a72306b99bd297\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this investment comes as welcome news for hard-working people in the Wairarapa region, with passengers travelling on the Wairarapa line set to receive many benefits, including higher-frequency services and travel-time savings. Speeds on the Wairarapa line will be increased from 90 kilometres per hour to 110 kilometres per hour on the train line with these upgrades, resulting in significant travel-time savings of 15 minutes for passengers travelling between Wellington and Masterton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229147811ec80e45efbaf81336b8a48838\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Will this investment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc8ecca504e4e76b62bb8db6c1a1d2d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t called you. Is this a new question or should I just bundle a whole lot together and let the Minister just give all the answers he\u2019s got?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240457a657b31491a867f042b7da13ff0\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. Supplementary, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022755ac95cebdc4644849128af16439d4d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Call on Suze Redmayne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e79550cec4a4410893a21c204856d6f7\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Will this investment deliver higher-frequency services for the Manawat\u016B?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b8902acf2c4ac191431185bd5ba582\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The investment will deliver higher-frequency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205674c7f1cba4164abb27486ee868846\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can\u2019t say much more than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b5ce988094d4b9a890cdd7c2fa09319\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014services for the Manawat\u016B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237865783bb06451f978216222b785f92\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206c6eb1732b4469d8d2f5cacaf268bbe\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t that great?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022433cad4a91df422a9d10e385624d6b85\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What infrastructure upgrades are planned for the Wairarapa and Manawat\u016B rail lines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264049d15f63946ff9751aa1c4f9d6c92\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, infrastructure work\u2019s been carried out to support the reliable operation of the new trains and increased services on the Wairarapa and Manawat\u016B rail lines. There\u2019ll be platform upgrades at stations north of Waikanae and Upper Hutt to enable the operation of new trains and the provision of three stabling facilities. There will also be upgrades to track and signalling infrastructure on the Wairarapa and Manawat\u016B rail lines. Our Government is committed to investing in a reliable public transport network so that local councils can deliver the public transport services New Zealanders need. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224683a080a70e4a759c0946d120c1968e\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. Supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298874f0ccdc74823b31cdbedfa1eac63\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry. I\u2019m having trouble hearing, given the commentary that\u2019s coming from my left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e653fa3de5d4a63adf640e87ad813c4\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I was yelling at Simeon. Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c81efb4c4c804e8e8f381bee023faf92\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Yeah, you were. And I was trying to ignore you, so I\u2019m sorry you called attention to yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b40f8950ae374a6fb4430776e104d15d\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Does he stand by his confirmation to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee last month that this, the lower - North Island rail investment package, is simply a continuation of what was in Budget 2023; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210c0cbd9fe304e84ac12e9cdbb54cbe3\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on this side of the House, we actually deliver. On that side of the House, they just talk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022581e1d0cd8174191ac3ab7e01a5e5002\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That was a very simple and straightforward question, asking the Minister if he stood by his statement confirming that the previous Budget provided the funding that they reannounced today. Then swiping back with that sort of thing, that didn\u2019t address the question, I don\u2019t think is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cff64c35d4c483494f457bfc691f37e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. And before I had any opportunity to make a comment on it, you\u2019re on your feet calling a point of order. So, fast out of the blocks and, in this case, correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223991a480db9a4339b50cda59cb8fce94\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Speaker, I\u2019d like to remind members on that side\u00A0of the House that it is New Zealanders who provide the funding, not the Government, and they should respect the hard-working taxpayers who are helping to fund this significant upgrade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd71175171254a519e11702b3f6ede31\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government so desperate to announce something that is not a cut that they are now resorting to reannouncing previous Governments\u2019 announcements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f73e071005a84ec79045732caeb06162\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229efac21df16248aebd6808c68c28169e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: The man of no vision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afba8e6ba2fe4591a0a358f66e5779a0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll you what. This is a really interesting position here because he has no responsibility for anything the previous Government did. But, anyway, you can answer it. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0e0c4e81b96447693aae2fbeb0569c3\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you, Mr Speaker, and\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c41b86935b994651a487b0bbec8212d6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Which would entirely make it an initiative of the current Government, if you think about your logic. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a0ffdc4c5948edbc2cd548ee3bcef6\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the member to repeat the question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cfe2d6bd9534cde9b7c85830e04b801\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, we\u2019ll go with absolute silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f881270d8ee94cf582c0b6d7e5a4edc6\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the member to repeat his question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f62cbc7c08e4ee3995b9dd8d9c05636\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e356b2373344b01b0fc0db5668c012c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Well, all I\u2019d say to the member opposite is, as I said\u00A0earlier, this Government is about delivery; that Government was simply about announcements, and that\u2019s why they got voted out on 14 October last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022493359c773c84d7c9944114b7efaa6ec\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022472f309d343d4eb9ae728233097bd1b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022472f309d343d4eb9ae728233097bd1b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 6\u2014and I make the same comment that I made before: these are sensitive matters in these questions and they should be treated appropriately by the\u00A0House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002243782ae205e842bb877841caded2e38c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243782ae205e842bb877841caded2e38c\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CI expect people to be able to get the right response for their needs\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002289e027a7c2ce4a0da504d7116beb009c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289e027a7c2ce4a0da504d7116beb009c\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which I said it, which was in an answer to written questions regarding family harm call-outs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295ac4683af09451890a31b2438b85abb\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: When was she informed that police are stepping back from attending family violence call-outs now, that this is being done\u2014quote, from police\u2014\u201Cregardless of the readiness of partner agencies\u201D, and they have warned that this may result \u201Cin poor safety outcomes or a threat to life\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9f11ec6bd484e36aabb10e36e19e09b\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I would just say that we need to be really careful when it comes to this matter and how we\u2019re addressing this matter. Police will always have a role to play when it comes to responding to violence, including family violence, or where there has been a crime, or where someone is in immediate danger. This is not changing. I want to make it clear to the people that they should always feel that they can call police, and to suggest that police will not respond risks undermining this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022122da5f2ae374afebf194900329914f9\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked when she was informed. I don\u2019t think that answer even addressed that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff730fa54eaa40bc9771ee00ed2a3812\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8af659e4f4d4797a17ac658e2c5b3bb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, in your view, but you weren\u2019t asked to rule on it. And you know that when these matters occur, I generally give the Minister an opportunity to say something further. But you can\u2019t expect every time to take a point of order saying the question wasn\u2019t answered. It may not be answered to the member\u2019s satisfaction, but it\u2019s an important issue and so the Minister can speak again if she wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e1262c3a34e46c3bdeec0e0dc7dbca6\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have that exact date in front of me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2241363ba4f4ccabaa74466af032e84\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that police have investigated approximately 3,000 fewer family violence incidents since December 2023 and that this will further decrease the current reporting rate of family violence; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6d38cb57c3948d2a7f0977ca0b37f56\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I just missed a little bit of that. Would I be able to hear the question again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034eec70546549e2a3f1adf31877f45d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, certainly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022943ebbe624774d62a9a474b9e2fb729e\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that police have investigated approximately 3,000 fewer family violence incidents since December 2023 and that this will further decrease the current reporting rate of family violence; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf7c27e2ea3d419ea404a999312fa668\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I think we all know that there has been a workforce capacity and capability issue across the board when it comes to the family and sexual violence space. We as a Government are working, and are under way, on improving our systems to build a more capable workforce to ensure that the appropriate responses to family and sexual violence happen. And what I would expect is that people are getting the right response for their needs. Because the police are not investigating certain things does not mean other agencies are not stepping in when it is their job to be dealing with that particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252bb6432ac924b1a86f5add03074378b\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What action has she taken as the Minister responsible for the prevention of family and sexual violence to ensure people do get the right response to their needs, given that police have advised that some family violence incidents will not be responded to by other providers, and police have stated: \u201CThis will be damaging to trust and confidence if people who expect help can no longer access it.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e789846c7974810945ef419a7b0e198\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: What we do know is that family and sexual violence is a very complicated space, and it\u2019s not just up to one ministry to deal with this. As the Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence, I\u2019ve made my expectations clear that agencies work collectively on matters regarding family violence and sexual violence, and whenever there are suggested changes in this space, I would expect all agencies to be considering the implications of this and work through the outcomes and consequences of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e398709c29a34200b5f8ea9a777c1794\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How can she stand by her statement that she expects people to be able to access the right response to their needs when she has made no Budget bids for the prevention of family violence, this Government is gutting agencies who support the victims of family violence, and now police are stepping back from the lead partner in family violence with no services in place to take up that gap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e15d310f72c41048504d4582a438ba1\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I do stand by that statement. People should be getting the response to their needs. Almost a billion dollars has been invested into family violence and sexual violence in the period from 2018 to 2023. This funding helps stabilise front-line services, strengthen the way the Government was working, and improve a range of services available. But before seeking further investment, I want to make sure that that funding is delivering as much as it can in the right place and that we know it\u2019s effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3a043dfe715479883b0f8247b2c7752\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000147\u0022\u003EChild Poverty Reduction\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227c4e9829f76b414eb9c641590f97cd79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c4e9829f76b414eb9c641590f97cd79\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Child Poverty Reduction: Why has she made the choice to set child poverty targets for 2026/27, which would mean that approximately 17,000 more children experience material hardship than under the 2023/2024 target?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00221affd188ed344a0aac3e01ce4c3eaa3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221affd188ed344a0aac3e01ce4c3eaa3b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Child Poverty Reduction):\u003C/span\u003E Because actual child poverty rates worsened under the last Government in the 2023 year, which means the new intermediate targets have to account for the fact that progress in reducing child poverty is miles behind what was forecast when the last Government originally established the targets. The actual number of children living in material hardship increased by 23,400 in 2022-23. According to the after housing cost measure, which is most closely connected to material hardship, Budget 2024 is forecast to see 17,000 fewer children in poverty. Our Government has a plan\u2014including tax relief, FamilyBoost, breaking cycles of welfare dependency, improving educational outcomes\u2014to help children overcome the circumstances they are born into and reduce hardship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022889cd1b8e9244319b690c96c9a1c4c72\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Has she set weaker child poverty reduction targets because she will plunge more children into material hardship with her choice to cut benefit increases and to inflict more punitive sanctions on beneficiaries? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219400cc971b547a1b6437560f6425fce\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not sure the member listened to my answer. The number of children living in material hardship, while we would like to say it didn\u2019t, went up under the last Government. So what we have now is a worse position in which to try and reduce the numbers. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve set a target that is both ambitious but, importantly, achievable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d30e6755ef2e407693bb5897c492123f\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How can she say her target is ambitious when it is allowing material hardship to increase over the next few years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c173b7421e7b4ae6828ea877ab607cec\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member hasn\u2019t realised the point is we have to set a target based on what the reality is today. And what the reality is is an increased number of children\u201423,400 more\u2014living in material hardship because of the last Government\u2019s record. We\u2019ve set a target that is ambitious and achievable because we want to see fewer children in material hardship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247427b91c02f4ab2a2f1768d4a280720\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How many kids could she have lifted out of poverty if the Government chose to spend $2.9 billion on benefit increases instead of tax cuts on landlords?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a436243c187b48a59ed653d065c44d3f\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: What we have done in Budget 2024\u2014and I\u2019m really proud of the work that\u2019s been done\u2014is to focus on the cost of living crisis that affects those households on the lowest incomes the harshest; it affects those the worst. So we are focused on material hardship, we are focused on the cost of living crisis, and we are focused on supporting households into work that will lift their incomes and their opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ac8c354f564e49bb4857e8d95db2bd\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How can she stand by that statement when her own official advice has shown that cuts to benefit increases will result in more children living in poverty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8b43c8fd2004fe38b6eb66351dd6ffb\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no cuts to benefit increases. We have changed the way future increases are allocated. And Budget 2024 will lift 17,000 fewer children out of poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200dc9274577645c5b4528193f4848760\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is she ashamed of her weak child poverty targets, and, if not, why did she fail to engage with stakeholder organisations about them and neglect to announce them with a press release?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022512b19ef14fa4b4894823376fe5a24ec\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: We have set intermediate targets that prove our Government is focused on reducing child poverty results, dealing with the unfortunate reality of what we inherited from the previous Government, where the numbers have gone up, but we\u2019re just getting on and doing the job, which is why Budget 2024 will lift 17,000 children out of poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207a1b5768b8a4c6c8ef3deb5a005911b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb4cd6b1457540b8b4857174b859e51d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb4cd6b1457540b8b4857174b859e51d\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What steps is the Government taking to reduce the number of people receiving the jobseeker support benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae16ce4c97e946478db85956a285ff6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae16ce4c97e946478db85956a285ff6d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E We are resetting the welfare system because too many people were on the jobseeker benefit when we came into Government, and the economic mess we inherited meant those numbers were always going to get worse before they got better. That\u2019s why job seekers with work obligations must now meet with the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) within the first two weeks of being on benefit to create a plan for finding a job, and if they\u2019re still on a benefit after six months, they\u2019ll need to check in with MSD again to talk about what support they might need. We are also helping 4,000 more job seekers aged 18 to 24 by providing them with case management over the phone because the number of 18- to 24-year-olds who shifted on to the jobseeker benefit, unfortunately, increased by 58 percent under the last Government. We\u2019ve got more positive changes to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223713763cfb724d9cb8407fc32ad14d20\u0022\u003EPaulo Garcia\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government making the welfare system more proactive by requiring job seekers to meet with MSD more regularly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262ac5e91e6384f399ae1d2dd17b55850\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is not content just to leave people on the jobseeker benefit to their own devices without getting the support they need to get a job. While 60,000 people have a case manager, this leaves 135,000 job seekers without one, so we\u2019ve established two new check-ins to create more opportunities to provide job seekers the support they need, to check they are fulfilling their obligations to become work ready, and, of course, to find a job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1b9793fda714941a38025f8f1ce2bba\u0022\u003EPaulo Garcia\u003C/span\u003E: Why are young people the focus of the new phone-based case management service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265d08d44a6154f97be733a008654997a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Because, for young people on a benefit, they are estimated to spend in future years, on average, 21.3 years throughout their lifetime. Our Government wants a better future for young people and to break the vicious cycles of intergenerational dependency. That\u2019s why we\u2019re providing young people more support earlier, starting with an extra 4,000 being case managed over the phone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276a31702a86743d9a3479df8dce494c8\u0022\u003EPaulo Garcia\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the number of people receiving the jobseeker benefit expected to increase before decreasing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e0e0fa953cc4f0d9e87d2fe031a9cdd\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The economy has been weak for the last two years, which, inevitably, means there are fewer job vacancies. It is forecast that job seeker numbers will continue to increase until January 2025. That\u2019s why we\u2019re acting immediately to help more job seekers so that they and their children experience the greater independence and opportunities that come from work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d88a503011d9415cb6e7bab6d5971b5e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f38029f043bb4aa7a362d9145e6a3cf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f38029f043bb4aa7a362d9145e6a3cf8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: Does he accept the International Court of Justice ruling that Israel is acting illegally as an occupying force in Gaza; if so, why has he not said so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002225f7aa46605a4c2a8e44622c38e9cb0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225f7aa46605a4c2a8e44622c38e9cb0d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Foreign Affairs: I refer the member to my post on X on 20 July, in which I said, \u201CThe International Court of Justice has issued an advisory opinion ruling that Israel\u2019s presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is unlawful and must end as rapidly as possible. Continued settlement expansion makes a two-state solution, the only way for Israelis and Palestinians to live side-by-side with security and dignity, more difficult. Israel must honour its international legal obligations.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d254558f94043ae800f5cb32860e4fc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just ask the Minister to move the microphone a bit closer the next time you speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022949b2ad99f724069bad31deec7f1b0cb\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I understand the quote and I know that I can\u2019t expect a yes/no answer, but I wondered whether the person speaking was intending to say yes or no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe131510a3464b0795ed8c31a2733632\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is not a point of order. That is a point of disturbance, in many facts. Does the member have another question or are we finished?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022149181f8bf2649249848f282ae990775\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I do indeed. Aren\u2019t the long-term and ongoing breaches of international law in Gaza so obvious that indecision by New Zealand is unworthy, notwithstanding that the USA takes a similar position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d44e8d0f054748a394c8412da055a11f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, the Government of New Zealand takes the position that, in accordance with the preliminary finding of the International Court of Justice, certain actions must be taken. In particular, I refer the member to the longstanding position of successive New Zealand Governments, which is that a two-State solution is to be sought, and the Government\u2019s position has not changed in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aa3f07511504c2c816b41fe42720c74\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the statement recently by Janet Wilson, a former adviser to the current Minister of Defence, when she said, \u201CWhile the shifting sands of geopolitics need to be considered, so too does the fact that for New Zealand this recent shift on decades-old independent foreign policy has been quietly executed without any electoral mandate.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a5320c47e164feeb7735505d8cbd1c6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I don\u2019t think that is an accurate characterisation of the position of the New Zealand Government, either in relation to the issue that was the subject of the primary question or, indeed, any other aspect of our foreign policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fd7c1fb96a5464ba91a3c03d84c2b80\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then, does he agree with Janet Wilson\u2019s further statement that \u201CLuxon and Peters need to drop the smoke-and-mirror obfuscation when it comes to foreign policy and have a straight up conversation about their intent.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88a16f39b6c47f0ab165c4916da747f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, of course I reject the characterisation of the Government of New Zealand policy position being anything of that nature. So it\u2019s a moot point as to whether it should be dropped or otherwise discarded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cea0425797c4a60b292d98e9a4582ed\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00224e58560fd35a456598812f379b229e38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e58560fd35a456598812f379b229e38\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What recent steps has the Government taken to establish a consumer data right in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022102a0b5f07cd4237922065b021d9f12a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022102a0b5f07cd4237922065b021d9f12a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m thrilled that the Customer and Product Data Bill passed with unanimous support yesterday at its first reading. The introduction of this bill allows for controlled and secure access to data, which will inevitably lead to greater competition in the banking and electricity sectors. This will occur by allowing innovative start-ups to more easily offer competing products and services using data that you have allowed them to access. Choice and competition are good things as they ultimately lead to lower prices and greater choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d49818dfd794fe5984ce87b16c4f8e1\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this bill needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dca63d66dd54848a73dcd4655f72b75\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: We are behind the eight ball. Recently, the OECD ranked New Zealand dead last when it came to digital regulation. This bill will pave the way for greater competition; in turn, boosting productivity. It will also support existing fintechs and provide an environment for new start-ups to enter the market. We also know that there are approximately 300 companies willing and able to offer products in New Zealand right now, and, ultimately, this change will create jobs and lift living standards for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235e31296885d49a8b3e670d2eab96034\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What assurances can the Minister make about the security of data sharing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256c19effc9e945a6b952d4cc5d06e1b0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: I think it\u2019s important to acknowledge that currently there is no mandatory data standard. At present, many businesses often have to rely on a practice called \u201Cscreen scraping\u201D to get your data, which is highly risky for you as the consumer. The Government is making changes to make sure that data exchange is entirely opt-in. You have to give your express permission to access the data. Second, businesses that you authorise to use the data will need to be accredited. Third, there will be also a customer verification process which will require the entity that holds the data, such as a bank or telco, to verify that it is you making the request and not a scammer. Finally, it\u2019s worth noting that the Privacy Commissioner supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbf831e717284c90b552ce3f58572bf3\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister provide some examples for how establishing a consumer data right will help New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c5b2427bb9f43c3a2d29081b0e04580\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Great question. I want to give you two examples. One of the reasons why banks support these proposals is, for instance, in Australia, you can change your mortgage provider within 10 minutes by completing an online application. This reduced processing time is a result of the new bank being able to access your existing bank data through open banking provisions. Another example is the ability to switch seamlessly between electricity providers. This will allow consumers to make better-informed choices and also get the best bang for your buck. In time, the consumer data framework will likely be extended to other industries such as the telecommunications and insurance sectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d95d373ea404dbbb0284fae040d7741\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next question, I\u2019ve been notified, has a longer than might ordinarily be anticipated answer from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc71260d34a84f89ba41d7a241c33004\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Government\u2019s Response to the Royal Commission\u2019s Report into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u002279044976717c4672a108fb8a774f6dd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279044976717c4672a108fb8a774f6dd1\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau)\u003C/span\u003E to the Lead Coordination Minister for the Government\u2019s Response to the Royal Commission\u2019s Report into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions: How many of the 138 recommendations from the Whanaketia report on historical abuse in State care and faith-based institutions will the Government commit to adopting, if any?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002267d3445dbcda485488487f008202fb0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267d3445dbcda485488487f008202fb0a\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Lead Coordination Minister for the Government\u2019s Response to the Royal Commission\u2019s Report into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I\u2019d just like to acknowledge all of the survivors of abuse in State care and faith-based care. As I said in the House yesterday, their courage in the face of appalling abuse, and their determination to bring truth to light about this dark chapter in New Zealand\u2019s history, is tremendous. And I want to thank the seven survivors of Lake Alice that I spent time with last night for their bravery and vulnerability in sharing their stories with me. It\u2019s clear from our conversations that torture that happened to them at Lake Alice has caused lifelong harm from which they can never fully recover. This Government has already adopted recommendation 2\u2014that the Prime\u00A0Minister will give a national apology for abuse and neglect in State care in the House of Representatives. That apology will take place on Tuesday, 12 November. We\u2019ve also adopted recommendation 113\u2014that the Government publicise and disseminate this\u00A0report as widely as possible. Of the remaining 136 recommendations, 11 relate to redress, 100\u00A0relate to wider matters for the Government, and 25 relate to faith-based institutions. As recommended by the commission, we are prioritising working through the recommendations around redress at pace and expect to have more to say on this in November. Work on recommendations about significant organisational change and legislation will progress in 2025. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221994351868ca4f5e933996a8a1a068ad\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the report\u2019s findings that depriving tamariki M\u0101ori of their \u2019hakapapa was a significant source of harm and trauma, which has \u201Cled to much larger social problems such as declining health, higher rates of incarceration, family harm, unemployment, homelessness, mental distress, and substance harm, and reduced educational opportunities\u201D? That\u2019s a bunch; that\u2019s a whole lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022500739c9492c42d1939da9f0fc6720b1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The primary question is around the recommendations of the report; the member\u2019s question is relating to the findings of the report\u2014two completely different things and I don\u2019t believe it\u2019s in scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241c19f337f6f4e9192dbef59ca0689cb\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a9a2fcc6c6a493bb4cb3fb1ba6f57c2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220255831323004e98bfa26042cd2a1190\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Sorry, your response was that you thought it was too far apart. I can\u2019t see how much\u2014well, I don\u2019t agree that it\u2019s that far apart, Mr Speaker. I think it\u2019s close enough. I think the issue is poignant enough. I think it is palpable in the House and, therefore, I think deserves at least a go at it. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022440e1353bd794fd4bb43a0edb28bdad6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, the \u201Cnear enough is good enough\u201D argument is probably not all that strong. But I think the Minister might make some response to the general thrust of the question as it relates to the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd40eff315a5428e918518afb61024d1\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e493f1ed1a4940ab96240dc5ee6e5825\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbb5fe05ba02475ab0be7888ba254aa1\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is a new point of order. Thank you, e te Pika. The point of order is that the findings and the recommendations in te ao M\u0101ori are one and the same, as are those who are the survivors and the community of survivors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ae6ac1fa91346459db2787d36780b30\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a piece of information, not necessarily a point of order, but this is a matter that should be taken seriously by the House. The Minister may respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205395988fc0840b1bcfac07712e72486\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, could I ask the member to repeat her question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b62938fa0e94fc4a10eb4deec0cb282\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, happy to. Does she agree with the report\u2019s findings that depriving tamariki M\u0101ori of their \u2019hakapapa was a significant source of harm and trauma, which has \u201Cled to much larger social problems such as declining health, higher rates of incarceration, family harm, unemployment, homelessness, mental distress, and substance harm, and reduced educational opportunities\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2e0e6a5ca7d4d1c9ce887b5658bd2c8\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I will, as per your ruling, answer the question. Of course, many times the many stories that I read in the royal commission\u2019s report related to children who were taken from their families and their wh\u0101nau and had that relationship severed. And, for many of them, they never had that reconnection. So, of course, it is a significant source of harm for many tamariki M\u0101ori and any other child that was taken into\u00A0care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecbee64825d547828b10f7e4ae8aa8be\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: How, then, does she reconcile the repeal of section 7AA from the Oranga Tamariki Act with the recommendations of this report\u2014for example, recommendation 39, on the need to empower wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and M\u0101ori to care for our tamariki in accordance with our tikanga, or recommendation 126, which calls on the State to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi by allowing tangata whenua to design our own solutions in State care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225771f86f075e4ef1bab99f0cefb461d3\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I\u2019m going to answer the second part of that question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225063bee0dcb7457a9ca5660088d3a078\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I think, as referred to earlier, this is out of scope from the original question, to discuss 7AA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022385c57091277494e9a9ee2db1b8b2908\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: With due respect, I decide what\u2019s in scope or not. It is in scope. It relates to two recommendations inside the royal commission\u2019s report, or can be related to those. I think the Minister is well capable of answering that particular question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc3eb26ffff04c6ca66f418d47aece10\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to answer the second question the member put, around the Treaty of Waitangi, and the answer to that question is that we will be considering all of the recommendations in the report in due course, in the context of the entire report, which I have read, and many of my other Ministers have read. The second part of the question was about the Treaty of Waitangi and that particular recommendation and my answer is that we will consider all of the recommendations in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a56e59baa94278b677abf7641dae8c\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Will she, then, consider scrapping the Oranga Tamariki repeal of section 7AA amendment bill, given that it contradicts the majority of the inquiry\u2019s recommendations? And can I also just acknowledge and mihi to the Minister for \u201Cthough near is not enough\u201D type of\u2014and I understand that too, but just to mihi to her for actually just taking the question and doing the best to respond. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 hoki koe, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. [Thanks to you in particular, greetings to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203920e5b82974a36819c0ea206710772\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s very good of you, but the last question you asked is not in her responsibility. Do you have another question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262b0582ea5d84ddcb3b1783dc518a2ec\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I think this is highlighting the reason why the Minister raised a point of order initially, in terms of the question being very tight in regards to the recommendations from the report. It is a sensitive issue, and when you ask a specific question, that does have an impact as to what flow-on supplementary questions can be asked. I think the Minister has been generous, but I do think, actually, we are needing to have specific questions that flow from the primary question, which we haven\u2019t been getting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d7d994bfbe14121b9e10be53868f05f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you for your assertion and your opinion. You\u2019re wrong. Where a primary leads into other questions or, as a result of what might have been said by a Minister, it does become open for the House to discuss.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e1ce3472cb1488097f889ae219414fa\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271fc5f3a03d74bb083a6b4609142384a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m ruling. You might have a new point of order, but at the moment, I\u2019m ruling that so far we have been totally in scope. I\u2019ve just ruled one question out of scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222892029c911f44c1a5d99081f7387676\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I think that the second question that came was out of scope. It was about a finding, not a recommendation. You requested that I answer the question in good faith, but my point of order at that point was that it\u00A0was\u00A0not in scope, because it was not relating to a recommendation. Findings and recommendations are very different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e3084bcdee84ace856b1063a27f4f81\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going back over old ground?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ce10e232aa24e0aac84e8f6e9ce451e\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s a new point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8abac5fc6d2429a8570007838ddd7f4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But is it on a past ruling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c453de92066b4707b71f249b60d979bc\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I answered that question, which has now led to opening up a whole lot of other areas that are out of scope, but the second question wasn\u2019t in scope, which has now put me in a position where all of these questions flowing from that are out of scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270974a716f2f4a5084c2c1487239cf76\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, with respect, you\u2019ve had two questions since then. I\u2019ve just ruled the next one out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280eb4bc530164fa1a32c2a3dca9b0aff\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b58f84130b2c456f9701b425700ea1c4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So I won\u2019t be taking any more discussion on this matter, thank you, Mr Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b8ea397b564b6ea3d9e68125689b83\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: No further questions; thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebb967242ddf49f08b117c82e95db8d2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022876812ea3bdf41a5b4f6b8ed58c630e0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Building and Construction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022d359fb3c36674299994f2b813aa7e500\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d359fb3c36674299994f2b813aa7e500\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: Do \u201CPeople who are actively engaged in building homes in this country\u201D tell him that building colder, damper houses, with less insulation, will result in more homes being built?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1293986306b4f5e92010fafe4a4fba3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1293986306b4f5e92010fafe4a4fba3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f286994c0b8a46c1819b413a2c13de64\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister disagree with Fletcher Building\u2019s Residential and Development Chief Executive Steve Evans, who was reported by RNZ as saying, \u201CThe insulation standards were going well, particularly that wall insulation and other improvements required were providing significant benefits to people by keeping out cold and damp.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3d7ae7e7bf54b06b05c6c640725ffb2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: The building sector has expressed a range of different views as to the workability of the new H1 regulation requirements, including as to the cost. I refer, for example, to the comments provided to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) in relation to a general building sector survey: \u201CI am unsure if it is necessary to upgrade from where we are at. It just adds so much cost that the public won\u2019t build new homes.\u201D Also, \u201CMBIE should pay more attention to the coal-face builders who understand the true cost and practicalities of building. The H1 changes are based on fanciful ideas of environmentalists and greedy suppliers. Unfortunately, the of the builder [sic] and consumers get drowned out by the academics and bureaucrats.\u201D Now, I don\u2019t suggest that those who are making a particular argument in terms of the current settings are ill-motivated, but I would say it\u2019s important that we listen to a range of voices and a range of different interests who have a view about the complexity, the practicality, and the affordability of the changes as they have currently been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ffb3dd2db2145239ca6599415466821\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when he says that the building sector has a range of different views, does anyone disagree with the Master Builders Association and the Certified Builders Association when they endorsed the insulation standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3a134c2591f412bb331090854af8f9f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly yes, and I thank the member for the opportunity to also note a separate comment that was made by a building practitioner: \u201CThe introduction of the new H1 requirements is a mess, poorly introduced, lacked market detail. Architects are totally confused and do not understand the requirements. To put it in perspective, we process around 500 to 600 plans per month solely for insulation QS.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de3ee42256c745399d61a8e7af82974a\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Does he disagree with National MP Dr Vanessa Weenink, who, when speaking about her experience as a medical doctor, said on Tuesday that if housing is damp or if it\u2019s in a mouldy environment, if it\u2019s overcrowded, that can actually lead to more avoidable hospital admissions and upper respiratory infections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d316bf62160a437badd9602c49962c24\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague and friend the good doctor is, of course, correct, and those who are arguing in favour of warm, dry homes I hope would be supported by every person in this House. No one is arguing that we should have homes that are not well insulated or ventilated. The key question, which I\u2019m approaching on behalf of the Government in good faith, is how we achieve that. So, for example, I\u2019d invite the member to look into the detail, for example, of whether the schedule method in clause H1 of the building code is more effective than the modelling method whereby you have a relatively blunt instrument that applied in different parts of the country that is proving impracticable and expensive. If she were to listen to some people who are engaged in the building sector who have different views from those she\u2019s already expressed and chooses to listen to, she will learn a thing or two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cf0f0d8529b44e8b2b8fe68203ecb21\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, what cost-benefit analysis was undertaken at the time of the review of H1 to weigh up the insulation gains from installing concrete slab insulation against the significant cost, and will he change the way these reviews are undertaken in the future to provide assurance for the industry that the costs don\u2019t outweigh the benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253b439b5637041009fc06bb95069275b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: The member asked a very good question and one from a basis of knowledge, as a licensed building practitioner himself. The point around concrete slabs, I think it\u2019s a good one. It\u2019s one that\u2019s frequently raised by those who are carefully considering where the major costs lie\u2014for example, weighing those versus the insulation, versus the thermal break requirement in the windows going beyond the double glazing. The detail does matter. In terms of the cost-benefit analysis, I would point out that, of course, for a cost-benefit analysis to be meaningful and hold weight, it needs to be based on the actual, real-world costs that are inputted into that. So part of the review that I\u2019m keen that MBIE now conducts, talking to a range of different views within the sector, is precisely to weigh the actual cost versus the actual benefit, and we\u2019ll see what the true position is at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e51dbfc841491d82d177a47935924c\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister telling the House that his proposal to reduce insulation requirements will not result in any homes being colder and damper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5bd812017b64adfa85ade3cae70c1b0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t suggested that for a moment. I\u2019ve suggested that we have a set of requirements in relation to insulation that actually achieve the aim without reducing housing affordability. It\u2019s as simple a matter as that and the detail of the way that the current regulations are operating versus what they could be, if it\u2019s possible to achieve the same results more affordably, more practicably, and with greater certainty, then that\u2019s a result that I think we should all try and work towards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7b5be15f1742bbb223dec42f6a6606\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Then how many kids growing up in cold, damp housing is too many for that Minister to accept?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221c096e92b724f8084a320d47ea34e29\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: The number of kids growing up in cold, damp housing that is unacceptable is one or greater. Since 1978, we have required at least some insulation in New Zealand houses. Prior to that, which accounts for half of the housing stock in this country, there was no requirement. The greater benefit in terms of cost-benefit ratio and the attention of this House, and indeed, of course, the work of the building sector will be to apply greater resource and imagination to the ways in which we can actually achieve that retrofitting as well as\u2014for new builds as applied to H1\u2014ensure that we have a reasonable degree of complexity versus the certainty of those different methods so we can achieve affordable outcomes that don\u2019t see any child in New Zealand grow up in a cold or damp home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022384a966ae344405bb5185e63fd25f6d8\u0022\u003ESecondary Legislation Confirmation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb0503159c1f428f983312df66dde9aa\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00224d3dcd80bc834cb986bbe63545d16829\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d3dcd80bc834cb986bbe63545d16829\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Leader of the House:  I move, That the Secondary Legislation Confirmation Bill be now read a first time. I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 29 November 2024. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022476a2638b9f2472f9c03b4cd8d717101\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000246\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000247\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Regulations Review Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214463baa9640412a9cf6bab39e531c1f\u0022\u003EInstruction to Regulations Review Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002273beacd891ec4294aade219b644b5574\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273beacd891ec4294aade219b644b5574\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Leader of the House: I move, That the Secondary Legislation Confirmation Bill be reported to the House by 29 November 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002237e5c77d62854aa091c4a273c3c7e205\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237e5c77d62854aa091c4a273c3c7e205\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those in favour will say Aye, to the contrary No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0257d5462cc496f83f194151e76385f\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Party vote. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbe4256d53b44f378c14a44502fda3c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbe4256d53b44f378c14a44502fda3c8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just ask the House, as we\u2019ve had a party vote called for, to hear that vote in absolute silence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d5458d959f6145e78749abe7b090429d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002298c486f530564eac8f205005900d3fcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298c486f530564eac8f205005900d3fcc\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was just waiting for the conclusion of that vote. When the first vote took place, a member had her vote cast on her behalf when she was still occupying her seat in the Chamber. I\u2019m just seeking your guidance on that, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f245802fdddd49dfa1c614e0551f97cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f245802fdddd49dfa1c614e0551f97cb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve got to say that the whole exercise was somewhat unruly, with people all over the place in all directions. The whip\u2019s word, when a vote is cast, is taken as being their bond. Whether a person is in the House or not, a whip has their proxy. No proxies were inappropriately cast. I appreciate what the member is saying but, at the present time, I\u2019m not going to do anything about that, because there was such a huge amount of kerfuffle going on as members were leaving the House. It was very hard for the whip to have seen who was here and who wasn\u2019t. But I just want to assure the House that all votes were appropriately cast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Local Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002264c96a30eee74846983ef52865ed47b9\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8b4bc0e050448a28945a97106a0af3b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000258\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 24 July.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260411e7e3e724ea78054c474a080689e\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Local Electoral Act 2001 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223d1a9eea53c744b7a6ea27c341442619\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d1a9eea53c744b7a6ea27c341442619\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: All right. Thank you, members. The House is in committee for further consideration of the Local Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill. When we were considering the bill last night, we were debating Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 17, amendments to Local Electoral Act 2001 and the Schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EBefore I call for the first call, I will tell members what I\u2019m going to ask for this afternoon. We\u2019ve had a reasonably substantial debate on this, and I\u2019m not intending to try and slow that down in any particular way, but I\u2019m not looking for a general debate; I\u2019m looking for things specific to clauses in the bill, so that\u2019s what I\u2019ll be asking members to be noting. I also have a good record here of things that the Minister\u2019s already answered. So let\u2019s make it new, let\u2019s make it relative, and let\u2019s have a good debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022a626bdb9be9e4f188bb099dcadc51ef7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a626bdb9be9e4f188bb099dcadc51ef7\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I acknowledge your guidance to the committee. I indeed am after something new. The new thing that I am after is an answer\u2014an answer to a question that I have already asked three times. Now, one could argue that it has been addressed, but it\u2019s my view\u2014and I would wager the view of this side of the House\u2014that simply having a Minister in the committee stage standing up and saying, \u201CWe won the election; therefore, we have a mandate.\u201D isn\u2019t actually answering a question, which is what is required of the Minister at this point, especially when there is an Amendment Paper that is actually larger than the original bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, my question that I\u2019ve asked three times is actually really simple: what councils have asked for this? The reason I ask that is because the Minister has made much ground in making the point that this Government wants to return to what it was, as if that was the best way about it. But given the cost that is being imposed on councils through these referenda, and given that it actually\u2014in the words of the 52 local councils that signed the letter opposing what the Government is putting forward\u2014is an example of an overreach, that this is undermining their decisions, and is actually counter to the rhetoric that the Government said they were going to do in regards to local government, I think the Minister owes the committee an answer to a very simple question: what councils asked for this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIf you think about it as a proportion, 52 mayors signing a letter saying that they oppose what the Government is doing doesn\u2019t actually mean that the rest of the mayors support it. Fifty-two is a large proportion. It is a larger number than the number of councils that support the reversal of the water reform that this Minister\u2019s led. I only say that to make the point that we\u2019re talking about a very clear message from the local government sector. The Minister should provide us an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe other question I have revolves around a very peculiar addition to this part, which has a different process proposed for the Tauranga regional council, as opposed to any other council in the country. Now, look, I acknowledge that Tauranga has gone through an unusual journey itself. And I was very pleased that the Minister continued what we had lined up in terms of a new date for an election. And I was very pleased to see that that election took place. Can I take the opportunity very briefly to acknowledge the candidate, now councillor, elected through Te Awanui ward, Mikaere Sydney\u2014the very first time there\u2019s been a M\u0101ori representative on the Tauranga City Council. I understand he is in hospital, so I\u2019m sure the thoughts of the House are with him and his wh\u0101nau at this time\u2014a pretty historic moment for Tauranga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, they made a decision, with broad consultation amongst their community, that they were going to have a M\u0101ori ward. Now, what\u2019s unusual is that, as it\u2019s proposed, they don\u2019t go through the same process as other councils because, of course, if there isn\u2019t 5 percent\u2014and I believe that threshold should be higher, but none the less, if there is 5 percent of people that sign a petition to start a referendum, they\u2019ll be able to do that. Tauranga doesn\u2019t have to go through that. Now, I get there\u2019s timing issues and all that sort of stuff. I understand that entirely because it is unusual up there, but it doesn\u2019t warrant a different process entirely. Sure it warrants different timing, but certainly doesn\u2019t warrant a different process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo I would like an answer to the first question, since it\u2019s the fourth time I\u2019ve asked, and I would like the Minister to provide that explanation on the second. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u0022c25613c31af84c46a44b3763959f380a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c25613c31af84c46a44b3763959f380a\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a different question than in the extensive discussion yesterday. I\u2019m interested in the justification for holding on to the two-term decision. When a council creates a long-term plan, they do that every six years, but they can change it every three years. They can make either minor or major changes to it. I\u2019d like to acknowledge that I think it was a National-led Government that brought in the 30-year infrastructure planning, which was a great step forward. But each council can change how fast or slow or which assets of that, whereas whatever the original reasons that a representation review and, in particular, a M\u0101ori ward should remain, we still have the clauses that refer to it sticking for two terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI can understand, if this proceeds, that a decision on a 2025 referendum will apply in 2028. But why would it then also apply in\u2014if my maths is right\u20142031 as well? Why should it not just apply to the following years? There seems to be a big inconsistency. Unless you\u2019re going to have six-year terms, which I think would be a stretch too far, even for the most excitable electoral reform advocates, why are we binding? I mean, you\u2019re expecting\u2014as I said last night\u2014that somebody campaigns strongly for a ward that then becomes disestablished, that\u2019s bad enough; but why should one particular point in time determine the decisions about representation for two terms? That does not seem consistent with budgets, with infrastructure plans, with reserve plans, with all manner of different areas of local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EIt would be out of step if wards were not able to be at least modified more frequently. And I wonder if the Minister could consider that in this day and age when, apparently, things are meant to move fast, we are based in sort of a treacle of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccf61527bda94ce7b596b1a4ab142f1f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: I like treacle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1e1eee54e95448a910444d98dc09479\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I like treacle in some cases, though not in bureaucracies. It\u2019s almost like there\u2019s a freeze for so long before people are allowed to move again. And it might be a wider question that is addressed by asking why do representation reviews have these statutory limits of six years when boundary changes with very rapid\u2014we\u2019ve got very rapid population growth. Take the city of Tauranga\u2014one of the most rapidly growing regions. Of course, Northland has also got potential great population increases. Should we not be able to do representation reviews and, in particular, the M\u0101ori ward matter rather more frequently than every six years? Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00226eacdf0ec2934e5fa759794a340cb85f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226eacdf0ec2934e5fa759794a340cb85f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank members for their questions. The questions raised by the Hon Kieran McAnulty in regards to why we\u2019re bringing this bill to the House\u2014that was explained in detail last night. In regards to the question around Tauranga, those questions were answered last night. In regards to the decisions around times, the standing principle in the legislation is that significant changes to\u00A0representation arrangements\u2014e.g., establishing M\u0101ori wards, changing the electoral system\u2014should generally be in place for two terms so there is time for the change to bed in. The poll outcomes will apply for six years, as was the case before 2021.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002239f8b8dbf400441d87b3f0ff16506185\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239f8b8dbf400441d87b3f0ff16506185\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you very much for this opportunity to contribute to this ongoing debate of Part 1. When we debated Part\u00A01 yesterday, we talked about the role of the Electoral Commission and the need for it to be supporting local government in order to then hold referendum, which is through the Part 1 debate that we\u2019re having here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI have a very simple request and an offer to the Minister of Local Government. Given the last general election in this country and the practice of the next sitting Parliament to review that particular election\u2014and the role that the Electoral Commission plays in that is, of course, essential and rather significant\u2014I wondered if the Minister would be of a mind to pause this particular bill to wait for the findings from the Justice Committee in the work that they do with respect to reviewing the general election, knowing full well that the Electoral Commission plays a huge part in that, as well as what\u2019s being proposed here by the Minister, making sure that any of the creases\u2014any of the, shall we say, kinks, if you will\u2014in the process of an election and all that that entails can be ironed out in order to make sure that at the local level, in local government, and what\u2019s being proposed in Part 1, as we look towards their role in supporting councils should they choose to have a referendum or, as is indicated in this bill by this Government, being forced to have a referendum to go back on decisions that a democratically elected council have already made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI wonder, and this is my submission to the Minister, if you\u2019ll consider letting the committee do the important work that can support and strengthen, indeed, the electoral process in this country at a national and regional and local level, in order to make sure that those particular institutions that support what\u2019s being proposed in Part 1 and the amendments being proposed by this Minister might be far more robust than what we have seen in the past. And there have been challenges in the past of the role of the Electoral Commission. Many of us across this House, as we go through general elections, are aware of some of those challenges, whether it be accessibility, whether it be counting numbers, whether it be officers who have responsibility to ensure that voting and the protection of those votes that have been cast\u2014all of those matters. We\u2019re very familiar in this House with those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy submission to the Minister here for his consideration is whether or not he would consider pausing this to allow the important work of the select committee to continue in order to make sure that as this particular amendment, as proposed by the Government, moves forward\u2014and we accept that they do have the numbers\u2014whether or not we can pause it to ensure that the Electoral Commission and all the institutions that support the amendments that are being proposed here will be better executed in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00228d1feb1300ed4b12af16ea725496bada\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d1feb1300ed4b12af16ea725496bada\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for an opportunity to take my first call on this bill, and it\u2019ll be a short call. It\u2019s on Schedule 1, which relates to clause 17, so I believe it\u2019s in this part of the debate. What Part 3 is, is really where a lot of the meat is in this bill. So the Schedule in Part 3 of the bill inserts New Part 3 into Schedule 1 of Local Electoral Act 2001. It fundamentally groups councils into group 1 local authorities and group 2 local authorities. There are, by my count, 32 group 1 local authorities and 13 group 2 local authorities, so about 45 local authorities all up. Of course, New Zealand has\u2014what? Is it about 78 local authorities, councils? So there\u2019s, of course, many councils that are not in either group 1 or group 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy question for the Minister about this is whether there\u2019s any been any consideration of group 3 local authorities, which would be the remainder of them, of the 78 that aren\u2019t those 45. I realise, of course, that the group 1 local authorities and the group 2 local authorities are around councils that have already had some action around M\u0101ori wards. I\u2019m presuming what I\u2019m calling group 3 are the ones that have not had any action around local wards, but it might have been useful\u2014and so this is the question, in terms of the drafting\u2014to be specific about what happens with those other local authorities. If the answer is that it\u2019s not needed, to have any drafting changes\u2014it\u2019s always useful, of course, for the Minister to put on the record, on the Hansard, what the relevance of these changes is to those other councils. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5915f27040049aeb741fe3163aa578e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5915f27040049aeb741fe3163aa578e\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate very much having the opportunity to ask the Minister questions this afternoon. Last night, I did ask a number of questions of the Minister. I don\u2019t believe those have been answered. At the same time, I\u2019m encouraged by the keenness of members on the other side of the Chamber to stand up with what I hope are questions but which is, I think, actually an attempt to shut this debate down through closure motions. I would love to see our M\u0101ori Affairs Committee members make a contribution to this and ask some questions of the Minister themselves, simply because, in the establishment of the original legislation here, the select committee process did go through the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI note that, this time round, it was actually sent to the Justice Committee. And, as I understand it, there was no attempt by the Minister\u2014and I would appreciate clarification from him on this\u2014to at least bring those committees together in an integrated way to, I guess, fairly understand the legislation that is before us. The Minister has outlined repeatedly that he\u2019s just taking it back to what the original legislation was pre - two years ago, but I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s true from what I\u2019ve seen from this particular committee. So that\u2019s my first question. I\u2019d appreciate it if the Minister would articulate to the committee and for the record why he did not consider the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee as the appropriate avenue, given the original establishment of the legislation that he is taking it back to. That\u2019s the first one. Or did he consider an integrated approach to bring the Justice Committee and the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee together to consider it, given, I guess, the relevancy to a population group uniquely of its own, being our indigenous people\u2014M\u0101ori\u2014in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESecond to that, I did ask for the costs to councils of doing this should they be required to do\u2014or they are being required to do\u2014a poll. I don\u2019t believe that the Minister did table those costs last night. And I followed up with a question specifically around T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland Council. In a couple of years, the council would be required to consider their future on M\u0101ori wards. That would come at a substantial cost, given that the current council is on its knees financially. My concern here is that when a decision is made around M\u0101ori wards and the cost to do the poll is put in front of a council\u2014which could be anything from $25,000 to hundreds of thousands of dollars\u2014through not having the means, councillors responsibly would therefore say they didn\u2019t want to proceed with the establishment of M\u0101ori wards in their area. The Minister hasn\u2019t clarified that part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EOn that, is it his intention to offer up a financial contribution and funding to those councils to support the poll that he is requiring them to do? And, again, I go back to the fact that if it\u2019s a decision for a council to go down this avenue\u2014which, I understand, through this legislation they must\u2014and it is going to cost them $50,000 that they don\u2019t have or that could go towards a pool in their local community, it\u2019s easier to choose the pool, and then it\u2019s not fair on what actually might be a better representation, or the current representation that they currently agree with and that they want for their community, and, in fact, that they\u2019ve seen benefits for. So I would appreciate clarification from the Minister. What are the costs upfront in order for each council to do this, particularly in Auckland as an example? Is he offering funding for those councils? What is he requiring of them, and how? What is his advice to manage, I guess, the sheer costs which they don\u2019t have in order to do this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022282f81c1d4214f8687354637e8eac240\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022282f81c1d4214f8687354637e8eac240\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to ask questions. This is not a closure motion\u2014I might surprise the Opposition on this one. I\u2019m referring to the issue I raised in the second reading debate, and it\u2019s the issue of electoral fairness. This seems to be the only place that I can raise it in this discussion. As I said during the second reading debate, I was disappointed that this issue wasn\u2019t canvassed by the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIn the Electoral Act, we have a requirement, which the Representation Commission deals with, of each electorate being within plus or minus 5 percent of the other\u2014so the populations are within plus or minus 5 percent. In the Local Electoral Act, for general wards, it\u2019s plus or minus 10 percent. And, in fact, if you\u2019ve got more than one M\u0101ori ward, it\u2019s also plus or minus 10 percent. But if you only have one M\u0101ori ward\u2014and this is in Schedule 1A\u2014it can be plus or minus 50 percent. Now, one of the key things about democracy is not only one person, one vote\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a6fd8e1e05b4da0a248267213f2831c\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022222a42e0952e4708a4eeedb38be0893d\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it\u2019s that each vote\u2014and I know, Willie Jackson, you\u2019ve been quite keen on tweaking democracy, and that is a very, very big tweak to democracy. But what it means is that, effectively, sometimes, at the very least, you\u2019re going to be having a vote in some places that is worth twice what it is in another ward. That is not in keeping with the good democratic principle of each vote being more or less the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIn terms of practice, if you look at the voter turnout, sometimes the disparity is as much as four to one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cccbd5c5ccf4a56890854f6439a9fc3\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: And you voted for M\u0101ori wards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022622c80d9b45b4a9ca35746e267d4fce0\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I did vote for a M\u0101ori ward. And I did say in my speech in the second reading, Mr Willis, that I looked at that and thought, \u201CAm I comfortable with that?\u201D, and I hope that in the turnout in the election, people would, because they are so enthusiastic about M\u0101ori wards, vote in huge numbers and it would reduce that disparity. It was the opposite. And, in fact, what you generally find is that the turnout is really, really low.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m asking the Minister is to at least give us a view on whether that is an issue. I accept that it\u2019s probably not on the agenda at the moment, but it\u2019s an issue that is worth considering in the future. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002280b591275357424ea70a82ca8eb06033\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280b591275357424ea70a82ca8eb06033\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for their questions in relation to these issues. Many of these issues have actually already been discussed and debated last night. I note that the questions from Mr Halbert were addressed last night in relation to costs. Ultimately, there\u2019s a range of costs and those costs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221175f00c795740eeb52bd24ef91123e6\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: You didn\u2019t say what they were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c78c7ab45a1442c7b4fe2206605c5150\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if you read the select committee report and if you listen to the submissions, councils put forward some of those costs. Ultimately, democracy does have a cost. That is the point that I think has already been made in this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn regards to the Electoral Commission\u2019s role, councils run their own elections\u2014that\u2019s from the member Peeni Henare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn regards to the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s questions, hers were on group 3. Ultimately, this is in relation to councils who have put in place M\u0101ori wards and not in relation to those who haven\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn regards to Shanan Halbert\u2019s questions, again, around Auckland, they, obviously, are not having a referendum, because they\u2019ve decided not to put in place a M\u0101ori ward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question from Andy Foster, the answer to that question is that the Government\u2019s position is that we are reverting back to what the policy was prior to 2021. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022cac9a61ea61c492ab088f5629063b2a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cac9a61ea61c492ab088f5629063b2a3\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister still hasn\u2019t answered my question about institutional racism, but that\u2019s fine. I want to come to a new question\u2014well, that\u2019s not fine. If he wants to answer that, I\u2019ll be happy to hear him. A very important question about institutional racism, but I\u2019ll come to the clause\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022144929b5f1524bf69a7afa51bf1abd6b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Come to the\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb43c5217bee40c393f80e335e0ec075\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll come to the new question, which is new section 19Z(2A), inserted by clause 6, \u201CThe powers in subsections (1) and (2) to resolve to establish M\u0101ori wards and M\u0101ori constituencies for electoral purposes include the powers to disestablish them.\u201D I\u2019m wanting to ask the Minister: in his considerations, did he take into account the Justice Committee taking the opportunity to highlight the Waitangi Tribunal report, which is very evident in the Justice Committee\u2019s report? I think they did a good job in highlighting what the tribunal said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI need to read a couple of the areas where the tribunal spoke about the Government having breached their duty to act in good faith. It\u2019s important to note this, because you\u2019ve got a Justice Committee that is majority Government. But they were good enough to highlight something that is incredibly important, particularly for M\u0101ori, that this particular legislation breaches the Government\u2019s duty to act in good faith. The tribunal also said the Government did so by failing to make reasonable and informed decisions and rushing the process to fit ministerial time frames without allowing for adequate consideration of M\u0101ori views.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe tribunal also said the Government\u2019s prioritising of its political agenda over the desires of M\u0101ori for dedicated political representation at a local level breached the Crown\u2019s duty to actively protect the rights and interests of M\u0101ori. The tribunal considered that the poll provisions are inequitable and discriminatory and a barrier for M\u0101ori representation in local government. Removing the option for M\u0101ori voters to choose whether to be represented by general or M\u0101ori ward councillors breached the Treaty principle of options. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe tribunal also recommended that the Crown stop the bill process to allow for proper consultation between Treaty partners. It also recommended that the process for establishing M\u0101ori wards be more closely aligned with sections 19H(1) and 19I of the Local Electoral Act. These sections relate to the standard representation review process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENow, this is incredibly important for M\u0101ori, as has been repeatedly said last night and will be repeatedly said today, because you\u2019ve got a breach of the basic rights of M\u0101ori. You have a tribunal in place that is supported by both Labour Governments and National Governments in the past, and I still believe this Government is a supporter of the basic principles that the tribunal talks about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWhat consideration did this Minister take in this Waitangi Tribunal report that has been highlighted by his Justice Committee? What type of consideration was put in place to ensure that M\u0101ori had an opportunity to fulfil their basic rights under article 2, tino rangatiratanga rights, the opportunity to be able to access their rights in terms of voting? This is very much a part of the Justice Committee\u2019s report\u2014major highlight in this report. What time did this Minister put into this? Who did he consult, apart from James Meager, the chair, who\u2019s, obviously, an expert in terms of M\u0101ori things from a National Party perspective? What other M\u0101ori\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241269ba06363407080ad47a189a3ceda\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll try and keep away from the personal comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229ad3d6a11e04ed481e2d19c3a6f4431\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he was the chair of the Justice Committee. Who are the other M\u0101ori experts within the National Party who the Minister consulted with, or did he consult with some of our crew on Labour? What time was put into this area, which is an incredibly important part for te ao M\u0101ori? Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022222e267517df406e83a9519b1b990cb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022222e267517df406e83a9519b1b990cb9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Glen Bennett\u2014just before Glen asks his question, I really do want specific questions now. I consider the Minister\u2019s answered a wide range of questions and if the people who are asking the questions don\u2019t consider they\u2019ve got the answer that they want, that doesn\u2019t mean they haven\u2019t had an answer to some of the questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd89322eeec341c99b895542a805cd36\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Could we ask it again, Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df17d942e83b439091c9fd57237a65d5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve called Glen Bennett, so I\u2019m going to let Glen Bennett ask his questions specific to a clause in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6a9abd094844b9eb61ddbdd5633055d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6a9abd094844b9eb61ddbdd5633055d\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. Yes, I have got a specific question and it\u2019s following on from the Hon Rachel Brooking and her thoughtful questions. It\u2019s around clause 17, amending Schedule 1 of the Local Electoral Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThere is a preamble and I apologise, but it really is because, already on the Table, the Minister of Local Government has proposed an amendment, and it\u2019s just around inserting \u201Cor\u201D in one part of it. The reason I bring that up is because it\u2019s just around the speed of this legislation. I\u2019m looking at Schedule 1, and I guess it\u2019s around drafting and ensuring that, actually, everything is in place and everything is in play. What I want to point out to the Minister is, as we talk about the different groups\u2014so the group 1 local authorities, the group 2 local authorities, group 3\u2014it\u2019s just in terms of making sure that they are correct, ensuring that the names are spelt correctly. Obviously, just coming back to the amendment the Minister\u2019s put in just for a one-word change, it\u2019s making sure that it is all in place. I mean, the big picture is this is challenging for many councils and for many constituents and for many people around Aotearoa New Zealand\u2014I guess, without sort of wanting people who maybe feel offended by this legislation to feel more offended by this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister: I\u2019m looking here and in group 1 local authorities. As we go down the list of \u201CRangitikei District Council\u201D, \u201CRotorua District Council\u201D, we get down to \u201CWhakatane District Council\u201D. I\u2019m no expert in te reo M\u0101ori, so I apologise to my colleagues in this room who are, but \u201CWhakatane District Council\u201D is missing, from what I can tell, a macron above the letter \u201Ca\u201D. So it\u2019s Whakat\u0101ne\u2014or \u201Caa\u201D instead of \u201C\u0101\u201D. Now, I know that, being from Taranaki, we have our ways. We, obviously, have our\u2014is it a \u201Ccollotal\u201D stop? What\u2019s the\u2014so we don\u2019t pronounce our \u201Ch\u201D particularly much\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d35f134342e43988aa079be3b843277\u0022\u003ECelia Wade-Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Glottal stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ff1affa0e74e83b9e618dfd0ba6fc9\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Glottal stop. Thank you. So, I guess, around not being offensive to local councils, not being offensive to local communities\u2014I mean, thousands of people have spoken against this. I just really want to ask the Minister to ensure that the officials and everyone has actually gone specifically through each of the council names, has gone through all of the legislation to ensure that that spelling is correct, that grammar is correct, but particularly when it comes to M\u0101ori names. I did actually look up and check\u2014and I was actually in Whakat\u0101ne last week, meeting with a number of groups, looking at what they\u2019re doing in the moana, looking what they\u2019re doing around economic development. I\u00A0did meet with Whakat\u0101ne District Council and I did see the macron on the building as I walked in, and I have actually looked up, in terms of their paperwork.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo, Madam Chair, just through you to the Minister, I would like to know: have there been checks and balances put in place to make sure that we do honour the language, that we do honour not only P\u0101keh\u0101\u2014for example, the amendment that the Minister put in\u2014but also, obviously, honour te reo M\u0101ori in this space. Through you, Madam Chair, I would like to know that there have been checks and balances done to make sure that everything is spelt correctly, as well as those macrons and those glottal stops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223017ee0795494e1d920d249c1872b3b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223017ee0795494e1d920d249c1872b3b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I make a comment, please. Fair question, but it has brought the attention to the Minister and to the officials that are in the Chamber\u2014that these things need to be correct. I just want really specific questions, because the question\u2019s been raised. I\u2019m sure, in that process, you know, a five-minute speech on a macron might be just a little bit considered trifling at this point in time. But the point has been made very well\u2014just probably the length of the speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbce1cc329b24b009c7662bae6bca52e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbce1cc329b24b009c7662bae6bca52e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The Schedule has a list of councils, the names are the legal names as set out in Schedule 2 of the Local Government Act. Only specific councils have macrons in their legal names, even though they might use them elsewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c23b575be738413cbaabcf2d660433c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c23b575be738413cbaabcf2d660433c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon ADRIAN RURAWHE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. I\u2019d like to just address a point made by Mr Foster and I think that opens up a new kind of debating point which I\u2019d like to address, and that is around the differentiation between a M\u0101ori ward and a general ward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t have a question, actually; I just want to have a comment on it because it was allowed to be part of the debate, and that is that there\u2019s an easy solution to that. We only need to look to the law around electorates in the South Island being that there has to be a minimum of 16. If we have a M\u0101ori ward, it\u2019s an easy solution: you just have a minimum of one M\u0101ori ward in a local authority, and then the other wards are sized based on that. That would be a simple solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EIt raises the issues around\u2014for me, anyway\u2014equity and equality. Up until 1996 in the New Zealand electoral system, there was no equity for M\u0101ori electorates\u2014being four. So we\u2019re well used to\u2014because I think the point that the member was making was saying that M\u0101ori were better off because their vote in that situation would be greater. The issue for me, then: how many of those wards actually meet that criteria, if any, in the country? I\u2019d be very surprised if there are any. That would be one point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe other point is that M\u0101ori are well used to having an inequitable input into every part of the democratic system in this country. So I think in looking at this piece of legislation, I guess I do have a question for the Minister and that is: does that meet the standards of equity of valuing a particular group of people who\u2014and I note here that the Government is not\u00A0removing M\u0101ori wards. Now, some of the arguments that they\u2019ve made would make sense if they were removing it, but they\u2019re not. They\u2019re actually leaving them there. The issue is the conditions around having them, and that\u2019s the bit which is totally unfair. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00221449be07b64946aead288fa17b1d0aca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221449be07b64946aead288fa17b1d0aca\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. Apologies\u2014I didn\u2019t want to stop the flow of those speeches before, so I checked with my colleagues. I actually genuinely couldn\u2019t hear the Minister, who gave the explanation around the macron. Is it possible to have that repeated? I checked around\u2014can we just check that, please? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1c8bf6f4ca7478da48d05079f39220d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1c8bf6f4ca7478da48d05079f39220d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It was to do with a legal name, I believe. The Minister\u2019s answer was that the ones that are in there are actually the legal names, regardless of what might be on a building, etc. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022640c36e084b3469c95328c31e199cf39\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd590ab720c545df91273fdf382036ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3ceda15fef1456b92f9187404a5025c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3ceda15fef1456b92f9187404a5025c\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato): \u003C/span\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. I\u2019m hoping to ask a few sets of detailed questions to the Minister\u2014the first one being, has the Minister consulted with any M\u0101ori wards; if so, who, and what was their response? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ESecond question is\u2014in my electorate of Hauraki-Waikato, we are currently having a by-election for Kirikiriroa\u2014has the Minister taken the time to consult with these candidates who are involved in this by-election? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThe third question is\u2014councils are very clear that they want to work with mana whenua, and disestablishing M\u0101ori wards or introducing a referendum to M\u0101ori wards would undermine and damage the good working relationships they have developed with mana whenua. Consider, for example, T\u016Bwharetoa own 50 percent of the land in their rohe, largest forestry producers, and the owners of the Lake Taup\u014D bed. Another example is within my electorate, as we are a post-settlement iwi like Waikato-Tainui who have river settlements, Treaty settlements, group holdings, assets, and developments. Another kaupapa that actually relates to the question that was asked by one of the members across from the Labour Party was one of the crucial roles that M\u0101ori wards play in our councils such as overlapping claims, mana whenua rights, M\u0101ori wards\u2014actually, an example within my electorate is the M\u0101ori ward would work with the geographical board of Aotearoa to change names like P\u016Btikitiki. Now, how does the Minister see councils being able to have the resources, the accessibility, the rauemi or the whakapapa, such as those examples of the street name P\u016Btikitiki that had to get replaced within my electorate that the M\u0101ori ward had a crucial part to play in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EAnother issue I want to raise is\u2014this actually might be out of scope, Madam Chair. However, I want to raise one of the questions that the Hon Willie Jackson raised, which was around institutional racism. Within our councils today, just because the M\u0101ori wards are there, that doesn\u2019t mean that there isn\u2019t institutional racism within these councils. And now one of those examples\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcbeb50d1ef245819c71a52e8e407807\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is out of scope because the member has actually, basically, said it\u2019s whether there are or aren\u2019t M\u0101ori wards, there could still be perceived institutional racism. So that question is out of scope\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022259048b99e57447e833f6add4c137dbc\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Point taken, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e194af92b5c4be2b6a8ee38d4f817b1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: But I invite the member to ask\u2014do you have another question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ca0f82efee24b24abf7f9aead70b6aa\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, another question. One of those examples is actually for the Kaipara district ward\u2014we saw that they were unable to even do basics like karakia. So if councils aren\u2019t even able to perform karakia, how does the Government, how does this Minister, see working forward and making sure that customs, kawa, tikanga such as whakapapa names like P\u016Btikitiki, karakia in council meetings are able to carry on if they are proposing in this bill that they want to disestablish or referendum M\u0101ori wards with mana whenua? So those are my sets of questions for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022843fe69ed4384ec0b4599f7e008a5853\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022843fe69ed4384ec0b4599f7e008a5853\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00229239c09088c641beb8e81548c0ac7234\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229239c09088c641beb8e81548c0ac7234\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Following on from the questions about the stakeholder groups who are asking for the change, which we haven\u2019t had an answer about, I wanted to ask the Minister\u2014not only to seek an answer to that question about which councils are asking for this but also to open a new line of questions about which constituents, which people, are asking for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d582a81993e944d3a765893778a5db4f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Related to a clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f69d0b09fc74886b9e5b20a8d109d04\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It\u2019s related to Part 1 of the bill, particularly around those questions where he\u2019s proposing to amend section19Z, in clause 6, which would introduce the new provisions around the referendum requirements of the bill. The question is: is this the focus for New Zealanders; is this the focus that we need right now; and if the timing of these referendums would create an opportunity for social cohesion in our communities to be undermined? And my question really is: are these policies of the Government taking us backwards, or should the Government be focused instead on the cost of living for New Zealanders, the cost of their rates increases, and the impact on New Zealanders\u2019 budgets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b872b337493a4c3bb36da853764cbfec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: This is actually not a question about the bill, though; this is a wider question about what the Government focus is. We\u2019re looking for questions, actually on this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc389f7a31a4322875f6556eebd4082\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I take your guidance, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb55c7c88532499e80a126d78faef165\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb55c7c88532499e80a126d78faef165\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224b5902b09967473c8ec452d60b45bb54\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022431a6548babf43eba7febabed916d15f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022431a6548babf43eba7febabed916d15f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s tabled amendment to replace all references to M\u0101ori wards and M\u0101ori constituencies with \u201Call wards and all constituencies\u201D is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ebb1e958ae354193a2b796a9a533db84\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022787bef0da73446c08f0fde4f37ce6cfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022787bef0da73446c08f0fde4f37ce6cfa\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually wanted to raise a point of order that every single member in this debating chamber at least got an answer, whether they liked it or not, from the Minister. I asked seven sets of questions to the Minister. He did not answer one of them. And last night, I actually asked a question too and he didn\u2019t answer that. That means he didn\u2019t answer eight questions that I have asked in this debating chamber\u2014to have that on the Hansard as a record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002218c19991880f49be9d7d5fd7b722bfee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218c19991880f49be9d7d5fd7b722bfee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. And one of the things we do in the Chair, and particularly in the Chair at the committee stage, is that the questions are asked of the Minister\u2014the Minister took a large number of speeches. Some questions will not be considered by members who have asked them to have been answered, either answered or in the way that they are answered. But our role is for the questions to be provided, and the Minister did spend a lot of time on his feet. But, in terms of whether people actually accept the answers that the Minister gave, that\u2019s up to the members as to whether they accept that or not. But thank you for the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022104a8819e75b455e984b7c0567ee9205\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022104a8819e75b455e984b7c0567ee9205\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just for the sake of absolute clarity, there is a distinction here between the Minister responding to a question\u2014and, in that sense, I absolutely accept your commentary there; that it is not actually your job to interpret whether a member is satisfied or otherwise with the response. However, the concern is, as I pointed out in my last contribution, when a Minister outright refuses to answer a question. Now, I know that presiding officers take that into account, but the concern\u2014and it\u2019s a longstanding concern\u2014is that one of the factors that presiding officers take into account when considering a closure motion is repetition, but if a Minister refuses to answer a question, therefore members are well within their rights to seek that answer again. Is that taken into account?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022239755002b2e43c99bf24d33a0fc0161\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022239755002b2e43c99bf24d33a0fc0161\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it definitely is. I looked at the questions. We have a chart in front of us\u2014the other presiding officers. We all fill in a chart here, and we know how many times questions have been asked. It is taken into account. And I heard, I think it was, the third time that you asked your question; so it is noted in our chart. But, at that point, if the Minister considers he has answered or isn\u2019t giving the answer specifically to what you\u2019ve asked, that is where it sits, and then it is your prerogative to state that you believe the Minister hasn\u2019t answered your question. But it doesn\u2019t change the decision I have made here. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00227bbd2c739ad0460eb2b559afabb66367\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bbd2c739ad0460eb2b559afabb66367\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that point of order, Madam Speaker, I accept that, actually. My point was, however\u2014I totally accept what you\u2019ve just said\u2014that in seeking a subsequent call and pointing out that the question hasn\u2019t been answered, asking it again and explaining why it\u2019s important\u2014is that considered by you and other presiding officers to qualify as repetition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022072a10a59bf14ee197f0dc06bd511fb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022072a10a59bf14ee197f0dc06bd511fb2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225062e82206ce4267ba60685e1befc37e\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Local Government Electoral Legislation Act 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1784ee1f1ca432da71fe1791abf9d81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1784ee1f1ca432da71fe1791abf9d81\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 18 to 28, \u201CAmendments to Local Government Electoral Legislation Act 2023\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part. All those in favour will say Aye, to the contrary, No. The Ayes have it. The motion is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e62f3660c584a49a77f713e38a9ffbe\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014party vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a896cd0ca7f46b5ac513230d7beea77\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014agreed. That was very borderline. I\u2019m going to let you have a party vote, but be a bit quicker next time, please, Dr Duncan Webb. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bea4593e5bb4c47a8c331bac67009fe\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: You should be slower! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203f2110eca1944db88c862f27d18911f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Clerk please conduct\u2014I could never want to be slower. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228e56cd2fa9e148b8a6ad4a1abda66d99\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000356\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022864d2009561e40a4a9cc12fec389dd92\u0022\u003EPart 3  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000358\u0022\u003EAmendments to Local Electoral Regulations 2001\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226e6686ad69164fa2ad867ef94c8f3b02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e6686ad69164fa2ad867ef94c8f3b02\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 3. Part 3 is the debate on clauses 29 to 35, \u201CAmendments to Local Electoral Regulations 2001\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000360\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022189b1e396b1f41c5b8ac1bec652d9bf2\u0022\u003ESchedule \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227e94da6c15204b2d939c26f4f4e9e38f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e94da6c15204b2d939c26f4f4e9e38f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to the Schedule, which has no debate, and the question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to the Schedule set out on Amendment Paper 48 and the tabled amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b755f4d400e414c925e3b2e709611c0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b9e9a234432f4a959e08861f56da04ec\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226c1e1f5c63e140a89a867c35c59d3afd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c1e1f5c63e140a89a867c35c59d3afd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clauses 1 and 2. Clauses 1 and 2 are the debate on title and commencement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002205358888467645a286f0dbefb39c4fe2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205358888467645a286f0dbefb39c4fe2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just, obviously, the title here\u2019s important, and I know Rachel Boyack\u2019s got an Amendment Paper that she\u2019ll no doubt want to speak to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240fcd4cf08eb4ff9bfd39cdd64f477d5\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cda004e2a6044b79bbe60ec04461ebab\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: It is a very good one, and I suspect it\u2019ll titillate the Minister of Local Government, and I\u2019m sure he\u2019ll approve it. But if you look at what the bill is currently called, the Local Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill, it doesn\u2019t actually tell you what it does, and, in fact, it gives a false impression that, in some ways, it\u2019s putting these in place or furthering them in some way. In fact, what this bill does, as was set out in the Waitangi Tribunal report that Willie Jackson so elegantly\u2014eloquently\u2014spoke to\u2014it wasn\u2019t elegant; not Willie! But what it does is, effectively, place a veto. It will ensure that there are fewer M\u0101ori wards in the future than there are now. A much better title would, in fact, be the \u201CLocal Government (Reduction of M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill\u201D. It may be that the Minister would consider an Amendment Paper along those lines, because to capture what the bill does is what the title\u2019s for, and that\u2019s a much more accurate representation. A reduction in the number of M\u0101ori wards and M\u0101ori constituencies, sad though it may be, I think would be a more accurate reflection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcc877f258c44a71af7d791dd1f59477\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcc877f258c44a71af7d791dd1f59477\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree with my friend and colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb in the sense that a title should reflect the contents and the intent of a bill. Calling this the Local Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill\u2014if people weren\u2019t to look beyond that, if they didn\u2019t have a background in the issue, they were looking no more beyond the title, which, let\u2019s be honest, many of us do from time to time when we\u2019re scrolling through the news or whatever, we\u2019ll read the headline and move on\u2014people would be forgiven for thinking that this bill was doing something positive in respect of M\u0101ori wards and M\u0101ori constituencies. But, in actual fact, as it currently stands before this bill gets Royal assent, M\u0101ori wards are on an equal level playing field as other wards, with one minor exception to do with the Local Government Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, if we wanted to address that, we could have done that very simply and not caused the division and the pain that the proposal in this bill does. If we want to be honest and have the contents and intent of this bill reflected in the title, the title will need changing, because what the bill is doing is bringing in processes and barriers to the establishment or maintenance of M\u0101ori wards that don\u2019t exist for other wards. So, if that is accepted\u2014I\u2019ll try to say that as objectively as I can\u2014we should all accept that that is the case, because that is what this bill is doing. It is bringing in the requirement, if triggered for a referendum on a matter that has already been resolved by local councils, a provision and proposal that would not, if this bill is passed, exist for any other ward. So regardless of members\u2019 views on that, surely that has to be accepted. It is actually not really a matter of debate; it\u2019s a matter of fact. There\u2019s a question here as to whether the title reflects that fact, and it doesn\u2019t. So if it were to be called the \u201CLocal Government (Additional Processes for M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill\u201D, that would better reflect the content.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019m fully aware of the requirements under Speakers\u2019 rulings on contributions in the debate on the title that any amendment or proposed amendment to change the title cannot include political commentary or criticism of the bill. That claim could not be made on my proposed alternative title. If you were to look at it and it were to be called the \u201CLocal Government (Additional Processes for M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill\u201D, it doesn\u2019t actually trigger any particular political response. Someone who supports this bill and sees that title wouldn\u2019t think that it was a criticism of it, and someone who opposes the bill and sees that wouldn\u2019t think anything other than it being a true reflection of what this bill proposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThroughout this debate, we have had a very inadequate exchange with the Minister, who refuses to answer simple questions such as what council asked for this bill\u2014three\u00A0times and another time today, utter refusal. Now, that says to me that no councils asked for this, and given that we know as a matter of fact that 52 councils, a significant majority, have written to the Minister and said they don\u2019t want this, shouldn\u2019t we, in recognition of that level of opposition, in recognition of the Minister\u2019s refusal at times to engage with the House, want the title to truly reflect the content of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAn additional element in favour of such a change is the commentary that the debate on this bill has stirred up in the public and in social media. What has been of concern, and I say this genuinely, is some deeply disgraceful comments that have been placed on social media\u2014when this bill and the debate that is currently under way\u2014have been discussed online. It was actually my intention to bring some examples down to the House to prove this point, but I don\u2019t actually think I need to. I think members will be in touch enough with differing views in their communities to know exactly what I\u2019m talking about. That worries me a lot, because, actually, the way in which some contributors to this debate have portrayed this is that the mere presence of a M\u0101ori ward in itself is discriminatory and racist. Quite a bizarre view of the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt does draw on an interesting question, which is that if this Government doesn\u2019t believe that M\u0101ori wards in a local government sense have the same standing as M\u0101ori electorates in the general electoral sense, then it should say so. Maybe it doesn\u2019t, and if it doesn\u2019t, it should say so. Because it\u2019s the lack of clarity and the ambiguity around matters like that that give people almost permission, in their mind, to speak out in ways that in any other sphere, on any other forum, and on any other matter wouldn\u2019t be deemed appropriate. But, for some reason, we can\u2019t just have an honest discussion about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis bill places different processes for the establishment and maintenance of M\u0101ori wards than would be in place on other wards. I find that to be deeply regrettable. I\u2019ve been very up front about my views on that. But, in this instance, speaking to the proposal to change the title, I would suggest for the purposes of accuracy and also the purposes of focusing the debate, it\u2019s actually quite important. Because what will inevitably happen as a result of this bill is there will be referenda. We just know. It can\u2019t be avoided. It allows for it to happen, so it will happen. It only requires 5 percent of a local district council\u2019s eligible voters to trigger one. It will happen. If Parliament doesn\u2019t take the opportunity now to clarify what it is that we\u2019re actually debating, I\u2019m worried about the standard of debate and the decency of commentary when those referenda inevitably occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis actually isn\u2019t a debate on the legitimacy of M\u0101ori wards. It is a debate on whether it is fair and just that the establishment and maintenance of those should be different to any other. If the Government doesn\u2019t take the opportunity to clarify that and refine and refocus what it is that we\u2019re actually debating, I think we\u2019re going to have really serious division in our society that\u2019s going to turn ugly. I don\u2019t actually believe, as much as I oppose this bill and have criticised Government members for speaking in favour, that they would want that either. So why would we not take the opportunity to at least reflect in the title of the bill what it is that this is about? If the Government genuinely isn\u2019t questioning the legitimacy of M\u0101ori wards, say so and show the electorate that that is not what we\u2019re debating, and show them that we\u2019re simply debating the process by which they are decided. As opposed as we remain, that would be a better reflection of the contents, but, actually, more importantly, I hope that it would contain the inevitable debate at a local level on what they should be looking at and not emboldening those with disgraceful and disgusting racist views and giving them a platform with confidence to be able to hear them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00228c4848c49cc14578a55144e8f27f0e95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c4848c49cc14578a55144e8f27f0e95\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for their commentary in relation to the title and commencement clauses, which we\u2019re debating. The title of the Act is the Local Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Act 2024, because it amends the Local Government Act in relation to electoral legislation and in relation to M\u0101ori wards and M\u0101ori constituencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u002236b190a1f75f4eb2a1907c76e5b963da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236b190a1f75f4eb2a1907c76e5b963da\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. I\u2019m wanting to follow on from my Labour colleagues and point to a tabled amendment, if that\u2019s all right, from my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan. He put forward a potential\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9496fda6e4e4c35921fc4ce6475680e\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Good guy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a85b53f5f554298b48ebdd315a0c75e\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all right to carry on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e9afd2d2a2f4b2bb402d00b52f06396\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284db2373cd49443c8ada5ff06e85a03b\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a good man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7157d0000e44a26a1a0a9337caebb93\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I was just going to say, because we\u2019ve got a few named amendments up there, I just wanted to talk to the Green one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EMy colleague Dr Lawrence put forward a change, again, similar to my colleague from Labour, that we should be up front about what the intention of this legislation is, to replace the electoral legislation and M\u0101ori wards and M\u0101ori constituency name with, actually, the repeal of M\u0101ori wards and M\u0101ori constituencies. We know that, ultimately, the referendums will be divisive in our communities and they will see an end to the potential of what M\u0101ori wards have brought us for the last three years. By naming this legislation and being honest about what is going to happen, at least we can show New Zealand that this is an upfront piece of legislation and being really clear that, ultimately, we understand and know that the referendums will be the Death Star for M\u0101ori wards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThe \u201CRepeal of M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies Bill\u201D, if we were to move ahead with that as the name of the bill, would place at the centre what the ultimate outcome would be. It\u2019s really disappointing where we\u2019re at, because we heard in submissions the fact that it\u2019s been a natural progression of hap\u016B and iwi relationships, that the way that community has been moving\u2014and we\u2019ve heard from M\u0101ori leaders who have said this legislation and this repeal misses the heartbeat of New Zealand and where we have been moving as a country. Now we\u2019re at a place where we\u2019re not being up front about the fact that we\u2019re going to acknowledge that referendums are going to roll across the country. The referendums will see a flood of external pressure on our communities, and, ultimately, M\u0101ori wards will be no more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThe proposal to change the name to the \u201CRepeal of M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies Bill\u201D is being straight up. It\u2019s about owning the destination, because, ultimately, it is going to see the end of M\u0101ori wards as we know them. The past referendums have disempowered M\u0101ori voice. The past referendums have provided a divisive platform for M\u0101ori and for M\u0101ori voice in local government, so let\u2019s adopt a name that\u2019s straight up. Let\u2019s be straight up about where this will end up landing, and it will see the end of M\u0101ori representation in local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI want to refer briefly to a report from the Auditor-General that we received in the Environment Committee. It was really awesome. It was a review of hap\u016B and iwi relationships in local government since 2019\u2014awesome report, because it profiled four councils who have grown their relationship with hap\u016B and iwi. M\u0101ori wards are plus/plus. It was a plus/plus opportunity. They do not take away from those important relationships with hap\u016B and iwi, whether they are settled or not, but placed at the centre of it M\u0101ori community, hap\u016B, iwi, and the opportunity for and/and. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI recommend that we seriously look at the name. What is in a name? A name is so important, just like Whakat\u0101ne, just like Whang\u0101rei. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de4541c9b8ac45c29359dfe5be146c65\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022184d7ca915b640a6beedf59d578b73a9\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t finished. I\u2019m on a roll\u2014let me go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d55892c014b4999958b1fffaaa35a4d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That was too quick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238a75c20ab4846eb8b77905d25221e33\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s my proposal that we get to a point where we have the honest conversation as the committee, and following on from my learned colleague who has spoken to the fact that we need to be straight up about the destination where we\u2019re heading, as this legislation will see an end to M\u0101ori wards and M\u0101ori constituencies across the country. So there is strong tautoko from te R\u014Dp\u016B K\u0101k\u0101riki that we adopt the name \u201CRepeal of M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies Bill\u201D. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00225399d897a19b4d38a200a0085ee89237\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225399d897a19b4d38a200a0085ee89237\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Apologies, Madam Chair, for my enthusiasm to take a call, but I am proposing to the Minister that he consider a name change of the bill to the \u201CLocal Government (Central Government Imposition of Referenda that take New Zealand Backwards) Amendment Bill\u201D. And my question to the Minister about that name is: is this Government\u2019s racist policy taking New Zealand backwards? And what do wh\u0101nau get from this? What wh\u0101nau are asking for right now is solutions to the rising cost of living. What M\u0101ori need right now is investment in our health system and our education system. And what all New Zealanders need right now is a Government that represents them and backs them. So will he change the name of this bill to be clear about what this is doing and what it is not doing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00222946939b7c1b436ba9c407993caf5183\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222946939b7c1b436ba9c407993caf5183\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. I tautoko and agree with what has been said on this side of the Chamber this afternoon\u2014it is tough. Coming to clauses 1 and 2, the title and the commencement, I\u2019ve had a long history in working around M\u0101ori wards, being based in New Plymouth. It was probably 2010, I think, when we first started some campaigning. The Minister\u2019s well aware that before 2021, when we brought in the Local Electoral (M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Act, of the 24 councils that had tried since 2001 to establish a M\u0101ori ward and M\u0101ori constituency, only two achieved it\u2014only two. So that\u2019s why we need to consider what this title is about, because I think it is misleading. What\u2019s in the tin should be on the tin. We need to realise that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EJust to give context in terms of why I bring this up, it\u2019s because, you know, again, in Taranaki, in New Plymouth, we managed to get it across the line with councillors by one vote\u2014by one vote. I remember that night. I remember sitting in the council chamber, and, as a foster parent, having four young people in there. We\u2019d worked and we were excited\u2014and we had kebabs for dinner that night. It was so exciting; we went to the local kebab shop and had kebabs, which was a bit of a thrill. Anyway, I digress. But it was about voice. Talking with these young people, it was about, you know, to achieve and to be who you are, you\u2019ve got to see who you are. And you\u2019ve got to see those people in places like local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the title, I think we need to reflect because 22 councils tried and failed before 2021 to enact M\u0101ori wards, because there was the ability to petition, and 5 percent were able to petition and put it to a referendum. And I guess we have to be realistic on this side of the Chamber; when this passes into law, it\u2019s going to mean the end for many, many council M\u0101ori wards and constituencies. I hope\u2014and maybe as I consider, as I\u2019m about to sort of explain what I think the title should be\u2014that we have moved on a lot since 2014. I hope that we\u2019ve moved on a lot since 2001, when the original legislation was brought in. I hope we\u2019ve moved on a lot since 1986. In Inglewood, I talked about the first female mayor last night and the consequences of her being elected, and the refusal to hand the mayoral chains to her\u2014in fact, having to create a new set because they were hidden and out of sight and out of mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo, I think, when it comes to this piece of legislation, I agree with everything that\u2019s been said on this side of the Chamber. The Local Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill 2024 is misleading. I thought about if you could put things in, like, the \u201C(Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards\u2014Yeah, Nah)\u201D. I think that probably doesn\u2019t fit in with the Parliamentary Counsel Office. I was wondering about the \u201CElectoral Legislation (and M\u0101ori Wards in my Constituencies Back Off-track) Legislation\u201D, but I just didn\u2019t think that would probably ring, and it\u2019s a bit too close to others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThen, as I mentioned in the House last night, when we look at this title, how do we give it relevance? I spoke about the fact that between 1876, New Plymouth District Council\u2019s first iteration, before M\u0101ori wards came into place, 0.43 percent\u20140.43 percent\u2014of all elected members had been M\u0101ori at that stage. Only two had ever been elected, and the first was in 1998. I really feel we need to consider this. We need to look at it and find, whether it be the \u201CLocal Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and the Abolishment of Them) Amendment Bill 2024\u201D\u2014we need to consider this because this is challenging, this is hard, and I believe that this is divisive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220c65f5cc356f44289b25ef1715e59fee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c65f5cc356f44289b25ef1715e59fee\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in relation to recent comments from members, there is a tabled amendment from Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan of the Green Party. The Government will not be supporting that tabled amendment as it doesn\u2019t reflect what the bill does. The bill is the Local Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill because it makes amendments on all three of those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9be0b273b0c42d8be344c1e54b4de7f\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214d00a449fe548d187cf651d1cde9548\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just in time, and because the member has an Amendment Paper, I\u2019ll take your call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022837d7fa816604801858c26d26d301a8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022837d7fa816604801858c26d26d301a8d\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to take a call. During the earlier stages of this committee debate, I asked a number of questions of the Minister that were particularly focused on the consistency of this bill. I\u2019ve got some real concerns around the consistency and even some of the statements the Minister has made around the role of democracy. So I have a specific amendment to put on the Table today, which is on the title\u2014which is the debate we\u2019re debating today. The part that we\u2019re debating is the title. My specific amendment is that we replace the piece that says \u201C(Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies)\u201D with \u201C(A Rare Misstep)\u201D, because I believe that this bill is a rare misstep on the part of the Minister. I think that it makes a number of errors in law and errors in the intent of the law and errors in terms of how this law will be implemented. So I may just take some time to go through those, because I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b1e85a9d054714b39de08e532d4e85\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. It is your amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228000458e4e6b400ea9561047c0e281d2\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: It is my amendment, and I\u2019m going to talk to it. I think we\u2019ve made a massive, rare misstep here on the behalf of the Minister. I think this would be one that would definitely go down in the history books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk to the first one. The first one is that what this law does is enact the ability for a referendum to take place on a M\u0101ori ward that\u2019s implemented. Yet there are a number of other things that a council could do, which I outlined in some speeches yesterday, such as implementing geographic wards, implementing general wards, implementing rural wards, implementing a new voting system, changing the number of councillors per ward\u2014all of these things can be changed through a representation review but don\u2019t have to go through the referendum process. So I say it\u2019s a rare misstep on the behalf of the Minister that he is about to put a law through that would allow for only one part of those changes to go through to a public referendum. Surely that\u2019s an error? Surely that\u2019s a mistake? Surely that\u2019s a rare misstep on behalf of the Minister? I would have thought so. So I think that\u2019s why we should change the title of this bill from \u201C(Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies)\u201D to \u201C(A Rare Misstep)\u201D. We could even go so far as to say \u201C(A Rare Misstep on Behalf of the Minister Simeon Brown)\u201D. I think that would be an appropriate title for us to have here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAnother one of the comments that the Minister made was that this was returning the Act back to what it originally was. Now, if we were doing so, we would have allowed for a petition to lead to the referendum\u2014so a rare misstep on behalf of the Minister, who claims that we are returning to the exact same law. But it\u2019s not the exact same law. Under the previous law, if the electors wished to have a referendum, they had to have a petition of 5\u00A0percent of electors wanting that referendum. What this law actually does is it imposes a referendum on those councils that have introduced a M\u0101ori ward since we as a Labour Government changed that law. For the Minister to stand up and say here in this Chamber yesterday that he was returning the law to exactly as it was before, well, I say it\u2019s a rare misstep. So I say let\u2019s change the title of this bill to be accurate\u2014to be accurate that the Minister has made actually more than a rare misstep. We could say \u201Ca few\u201D rare missteps\u2014a few rare missteps that he has made in putting this legislation together and then making statements in this Chamber that clearly don\u2019t back up what the actual legislation does in terms of its intent and in terms of its implementation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe last thing I wanted to mention was some comments where I think the Minister has made another rare misstep, around the role of the Local Government Commission vis \u00E0 vis the role of a referendum. The Minister has claimed that it\u2019s absolutely fine for us to have a referendum on this particular matter because the Local Government Commission can make changes to what councils have done through their processes if people make an appeal to the Local Government Commission off the back of some decisions of a council. Again, we\u2019re seeing an inconsistency here. If we really want to talk about democracy, we would have a consistent approach between what we\u2019re doing for M\u0101ori wards and what we\u2019re doing for all other decisions that are made by a council. I gave the very good example of Nelson City Council. They did make some changes. There was an appeal made. The Local Government Commission upheld the council\u2019s decisions that had been made through the representation review. So I say that, again, it\u2019s another example\u2014I think I have pointed out three missteps, so perhaps we could say \u201C(Three Rare Missteps on Behalf of the Minister)\u201D. But I really would like to hear from the Minister if he\u2019s willing to entertain my Amendment Paper, because I think it\u2019s a very good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002214fa40ee86fb4ae99d38e59bfe5d9d04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214fa40ee86fb4ae99d38e59bfe5d9d04\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226a70c5d6b4b143a0b184c2c22f0dd51d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222551c266921a434c807010fa1b8662ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222551c266921a434c807010fa1b8662ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Rachel Boyack\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is out of order as not being a serious amendment. The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002239137914a4b04da18e11f8aaec07979c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022825087dea26e47779ddc972489f84d64\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022291f7b7e2b274485904709476b4f6262\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000409\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000410\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224315de8c8f0e4aa8b22f297e42012afa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224315de8c8f0e4aa8b22f297e42012afa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Local Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill. I report the bill with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002225d823f4fa004bc29cb01f32ee042a9e\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224720d18359d54f258868df1b950999f8\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220305c22ab66943cf9de619256f8aa2cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220305c22ab66943cf9de619256f8aa2cd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill is a critical piece of legislation. It makes up the next step of this Government\u2019s Local Water Done Well plan, which is part of our coalition Government\u2019s plan for addressing New Zealand\u2019s water infrastructure challenges. I want to start by thanking the Finance and Expenditure Committee for considering the bill and for its recommendations that it has put forward to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s longstanding water infrastructure challenges require locally led and financially sustainable solutions. Labour attempted a water reform approach which was ultimately an unpopular, mega-entity, co-governed model which cost taxpayers $1.25\u00A0billion, and it was overwhelmingly rejected by New Zealanders at the last election. Earlier this year, we delivered on our election commitment to repeal and end Labour\u2019s divisive three waters legislative reforms and to return water services to local communities, to local ownership, and to local control. The previous Government\u2019s three waters legislation was so unpopular, they received 88,000 submissions opposing it at select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ELocal Water Done Well outlines an approach and provides the settings for councils to\u00A0have financially sustainable water services while retaining control over the assets their communities have paid for. This bill enables councils to self-determine their pathway to financially sustainable delivery models. We\u2019re not here to impose a one-size-fits-all approach on councils that know their communities best. Councils will determine their preferred delivery arrangements through developing water service delivery plans, and must demonstrate how they will deliver their water services in a way that is financially sustainable and that will meet regulatory standards for water and infrastructure quality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe Government recognises that for many councils, this would be best achieved through collaboration. That\u2019s why this bill enables councils to jointly submit a plan. The Government also anticipates that some councils may benefit from assistance with their plans and has, therefore, required that a Crown facilitator or water services specialist can be appointed to assist councils or to prepare a plan on their behalf. Councils can request this support, if they wish so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe bill further supports councils who are ready to transform their water services delivery at pace. It provides a streamlined option for consulting and deciding on forming a water services council-controlled organisation or a joint local government arrangement as an alternative to Local Government Act 2002 processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe future economic regulator\u2014the Commerce Commission\u2014will benefit from the disclosure of specific information in the water service delivery plans as it works towards developing a full regulatory regime. Disclosure via the plans will also give councils some lead time to get themselves ready for full economic regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EFinally, this bill delivers on our Government\u2019s election promise to provide a financially sustainable approach for water infrastructure in Auckland, and that is exactly what we have delivered. Earlier this year, Watercare projected that there would be a 25.8\u00A0percent water rate hike for Aucklanders in July. This 25.8 percent water rate hike would have piled costs\u00A0on to Aucklanders already struggling with a prolonged cost of living crisis, increasing the cost of average annual household water rates by $348 per year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe previous Government spent $1.25 billion\u2014$1.25 billion\u2014on their failed three waters plan and it failed to deliver a solution for New Zealanders. We worked with Auckland Council to implement a new model that gives Watercare financial independence while allowing the council to retain complete ownership and control. Local Water Done Well for Auckland will substantially reduce Aucklanders\u2019 future water bills from the previous projections of a 25.8 percent increase in water rates down to 7.2\u00A0percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, members on the opposite side of the House, including the former Minister of Local Government himself, claim that their three waters plan would have delivered lower rates for Aucklanders than Local Water Done Well, but they\u2019ve failed to own up to the fact that their modelling imposed a price cap on the new entity A. The choice that they fail to answer\u2014the choice that they fail to answer\u2014is what would they like Watercare to have stopped doing, because if they were to have had a price cap of 2 percent, they would have had to either reduce how much maintenance they were doing in Auckland, which would have meant leaks on the streets in Auckland as well as leaks on the streets in Wellington, or it would have meant a stopwork on the Central Interceptor. Well, the reforms that we\u2019ve proposed have meant that Aucklanders are able to have lower bills, they\u2019re able to continue investment, and the maintenance is able to continue. This is what Local Water Done Well is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAfter the bill\u2019s introduction, the Government also tabled an Amendment Paper to address its concerns about the cost to local authorities and ratepayers of reconsenting a number of waste-water treatment plants. This interim amendment to the Water Services Act 2021 means that Te Mana o te Wai hierarchy of obligations in the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management will not apply when Taumata Arowai sets waste-water standards. These changes are a pragmatic approach to applying the hierarchy while work is under way to rebalance the national policy statement of Te Mana o te Wai, as signalled in our coalition agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee for its hard work considering the bill and progressing it at pace to ensure that the foundations of Local Water Done Well are able to be put in place as quickly as possible. I also want to thank the submitters for taking the time to submit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ERecommendations relating to the water service delivery plans include clarifying that the plans are one-off in nature, making implementation plans mandatory to increase transparency and accountability, and specifically allowing plans to include information for periods of up to 30 years, in addition to the minimum of 10 years, where doing so would help to identify future investment requirements or support future housing and urban development. Another key recommendation is to require councils to give effect to some aspects of their plans as a way of ensuring that councils commit to starting to implement them. I think these are very sensible amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe committee recommended several changes to the role of the Crown monitor in relation to Watercare, following submissions from, particularly, Auckland Council. For instance, the Secretary for Local Government will now prepare Watercare\u2019s charter, instead of the Crown monitor, and is required to consult with Auckland Council, Watercare, Taumata Arowai, and the Commerce Commission in preparing that. This ensures an appropriate separation between roles such as the Crown monitor, who will be responsible for implementing the monitoring, and it also addresses Auckland Council\u2019s concerns about too much power being concentrated in the Crown monitor. We think that\u2019s a fair way, and it separates those concerns for Auckland Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EFinally, the committee recommended that the Amendment Paper be included in the bill in its entirety, noting its intention to be an interim measure while the Government updates the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management. This amendment to the Water Services Act will give certainty to those involved in infrastructure development and it will prepare the sector for the significant number of waste-water treatment plants that are due for reconsenting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill takes another significant step forward to the implementation of Local Water Done Well, a higher-quality, safer, and more resilient water services system. The previous Government spent $1.25 billion\u2014$1.25 billion\u2014on their three waters plan and had nothing to show for it. Councils and voters resoundingly rejected their approach at the last election. Expensive, bureaucratic\u2014you don\u2019t have to go far to look at all the mess that the last Government created with their centralisation. The mess we see with Te P\u016Bkenga, the mess we see with Health New Zealand\u2014thank goodness we\u2019ve managed to stop this one now, in its tracks, before we saw the mess that this bureaucratic, expensive, and co-governed approach the last Government had to three waters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EOur Government is listening to New Zealanders, and our Local Water Done Well will deliver better, financially sustainable, and affordable water services while retaining local control of water infrastructure for New Zealanders. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229552a373efab4e8aaade29113295edb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229552a373efab4e8aaade29113295edb8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4e52981e2724e5c860110e28d6aa600\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4e52981e2724e5c860110e28d6aa600\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. When a Minister spends half his allocated speaking time talking about the Opposition, you know that what he\u2019s saying isn\u2019t actually quite the case, and that is absolutely the case for the Minister of Local Government. What he has promised New Zealand, he won\u2019t be able to deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e4c4a7b43a9409aa8981c36174b1081\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He already is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1e1cbe22ecf446298f0dee83075eba2\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: We will see. It\u2019s very interesting, isn\u2019t it, that Government members are quite vocal. I wonder if they will be vocal if ratepayers come into their office with their latest bill that demonstrates the latest increase\u2014because they should, because it\u2019s their fault. Next time New Zealanders see an increase in their rates bill, they would be misplaced in blaming their council because this Government has put that council in that position, and they\u2019ve done that in two ways. One is by repealing the water reform, and two is what the Minister did a couple of weeks ago and completely dismissed every single recommendation from the review into the future of local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe reason this bill is going to cost ratepayers money\u2014and I think it spoke volumes that the Minister actually didn\u2019t refer to advice that he\u2019d received; he referred to the same political arguments they made during the campaign, because if he was upfront and did provide the advice, they would demonstrate that what the Government is proposing in this bill will cost ratepayers more than the water reform. The only thing they have is that the water reform cost $1.25 billion. The only point at which that was wasted was when they repealed it, because if they left it alone, things were in place, and all they needed to go\u2014[Interruption] Listen to it. Anybody hearing this online or on the TV can hear the response. The reason they\u2019re reacting like that is because they know deep down it\u2019s true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll give them an example. In South Wairarapa, there are three towns. Two of them have now paused all development because the council-controlled organisation (CCO) that they are a member of does not have the funds to upgrade their waste-water systems. Now, this is a CCO that is exactly the proposal that exists under Local Water Done Well. This Government is setting up councils with a false promise\u2014a false promise\u2014and if they don\u2019t like that, I\u2019ll present them with this: they went around the country promising councils that if councils supported them when they got into Government, they would help them pay for their water upgrades and their water maintenance. They promised councils that they would help them pay. We\u2019re talking about $185 billion over the next 30 years. Councils cannot do it by themselves, and they cannot afford to do it even if they are under a CCO, because they won\u2019t be able to get the required level of balance sheet separation. But they promised them none the less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThen they got into Government and they broke that promise immediately. An objective person would say that if you promise something with no intention of keeping it and then you don\u2019t keep that promise, that is dishonest, and yet they walk around now and say that they have saved councils from the burden of the cost of water reform. It is disingenuous. We\u2019re already seeing rates increases around the country, and councils are saying that it is because of the repeal of the water reform. The advice is there from the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014all that has been peer reviewed\u2014this Government\u2019s decisions around water reform are going to cost councils and, therefore, ratepayers more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt was interesting that the Minister thanked the submitters. I don\u2019t know why, because they\u2019ve ignored the councils that submitted to the Finance and Expenditure Committee that said if this goes through as is proposed, they are likely to be on their own. Now, the problem with that is it\u2019s usually the small, rural councils that are going to be left out. When you have councils with a massive roading network and a number of towns that they are required to service but a very small rate-paying base, they simply cannot afford to pay to do the work, and if no council voluntarily chooses to go with them, what are they going to do? Now, this is a problem that we have raised with the Minister on a number of occasions, and all that he has is the political attack lines that they used in the campaign. There\u2019s no substance there; there\u2019s no sincerity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat they\u2019ve done is they have repealed reforms not because they weren\u2019t going to work, because all the evidence was there; they\u2019ve repealed reforms because they contained co-governance. So they\u2019ve wasted $1.25 billion, according to the Minister, because they didn\u2019t like co-governance. They didn\u2019t waste that money because it wasn\u2019t going to work. They didn\u2019t waste that money because it wasn\u2019t going to save ratepayers money. They repealed it because they didn\u2019t have the guts to front up to the electorate and say, \u201CThis will actually work, but if we do it like this, we\u2019re going to have to look at a way of recognising the long-established special interest that M\u0101ori have, via the Treaty and established through the courts, in water.\u201D They didn\u2019t have the guts to front up and have that conversation, so instead they made false promises to councils, they lured support amongst ratepayers and said that the \u201CNational Party will help our council pay for it if they get in.\u201D, and they got rid of it with no intention of keeping that, then scrapping the reforms which would\u2019ve worked. Why? Because they didn\u2019t want to front up and have the co-governance debate. I actually think that is disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EEven now, you know from the Minister\u2019s speech when he\u2019s trying to pre-empt what the Opposition might say that his argument doesn\u2019t stack up on his own accord. It\u2019s the age-old tactic. That\u2019s because it doesn\u2019t. Nothing he has said today stacks up. The reason Watercare was proposing 26 percent was because these guys repealed the water reform. So when the Minister stands up and says, \u201CWe saved Aucklanders from 26 percent water charges.\u201D, that was a problem of their own making. It takes a bit of gall to be able to stand up and say, \u201CWe\u2019ve saved Auckland from the problem that we started.\u201D, but that\u2019s what they\u2019ve done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe other issue around Auckland is that was the easy fix. That was the only one that they were able to do what they\u2019ve done in Auckland where it would work, because no one else has the scale. So to the people of Northland, they\u2019re cast on their own. To the people of Tair\u0101whiti, they\u2019re gone. The top of the South Island: they\u2019re on their own. The West Coast of the South Island: they\u2019re on their own. Because those councils don\u2019t have the scale, even if they join up just with a couple of their neighbours to make this work to the level that it needs to. Even then, a CCO, as is the supposed outcome, doesn\u2019t have the balance sheet separation to be able to withdraw the debt associated to the work that\u2019s already been done and absorb the debt that will need to be taken on in order to do the work. That\u2019s why you\u2019re looking at examples in the Wellington region, under Wellington Water, where that model simply has not worked. It\u2019s not delivering for South Wairarapa, and it\u2019s not delivering for the other councils in the Wellington region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, maybe\u2014just maybe\u2014they will be able to jimmy up an arrangement for these councils that is a slight improvement on the status quo but significantly worse than what would\u2019ve happened if they\u2019d let reform go through. It is all there in the data. All they care about is appeasing those people that were worried about co-governance, but I have a theory which I happen to think is true: that, actually, deep down, people care more about the rates that they have to pay than they do about co-governance. When you look at the projected rates increases across the country, not just this year but next year and every year for the next 10 years, they have all jumped up significantly since this Government repealed water reform. It\u2019s your fault. I say to the members opposite: you\u2019ve all done this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee12daaadd604b57bd60a17ea44357c9\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not my fault, Mr McAnulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b5ec63278f94d649d2d152a253a396d\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I thought I got in there just in time, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232b705759dac471da995e4151395a996\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I\u2019m still listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb6228ce5c84779b0b7e8b60052c35a\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I did say, \u201CI say to the members opposite\u201D, but I\u2019ll clarify: I did not mean the Speaker. To members opposite, I say to them, \u201CIt is your fault.\u201D, and because they voted for it, they should be held accountable. Where are they fronting up to their ratepayers and saying, \u201CWe voted for higher rates bills because we didn\u2019t want co-governance.\u201D? That\u2019s what they should be saying, and I think the ratepayers will look them in the eye and say, \u201CActually, do you know what? I think I\u2019d rather have cheaper bills.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002256bc36de547b4337a6ef211ab9b74363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256bc36de547b4337a6ef211ab9b74363\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a5482817d4c49b6bcc22f0ca98cb030\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can we just make sure we\u2019re aware and jump up a little bit quicker next time? Almost lost that call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d84c390fa12348ca93531a6e03d4dd84\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014thank you. I appreciate that, Madam Speaker. Look, it\u2019s a real privilege to be able to speak to te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki\u2019s position on the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. It\u2019s kind of clever, the name of this bill, because by the time you finish saying the title to anyone, they\u2019ve completely lost interest. See [Gestures to Deputy Speaker]\u2014and case in point. It\u2019s much like this Government\u2019s approach to our very real and very serious infrastructure deficit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI want to assure every New Zealander out there that this bill matters. It matters because the official advice states really clearly that 35,000 Kiwis get sick every year from simply drinking the water that comes out of their tap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229da4d5218b5743989b801a6f4a2f7c0d\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Fake news. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225478a2ce58b24215a99bd82ec1f8431a\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: We have this rolling\u2014fake news, I just heard called out, but it\u2019s actually in the official advice and official documentation. So thank you for pointing out that there\u2019s some real misinformation going on over that side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe have this rolling seasonal nightmare of health warning signs going up at our favourite swimming and fishing spots, needing to avoid certain areas from the risk that our dogs or our little kids could get sick from the contamination of our waste water and our stormwater\u2014the majority of which, I might add, discharge directly into our fresh water or coastal environment. Nearly a quarter of these are operating on expired consents. So, yes, we do have immense challenges on our hands\u2014that needs to be addressed. But, unfortunately, this bill does not spell out a clear way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EFirstly, I want to touch on the use of urgency with the bill and the truncated select committee process which has been completely unnecessary. The time frame for submissions on this bill was nine days. It meant that councils and communities were unable to have their voices heard on legislation that has such significant implications for their health, their local community, and their environment. The New Zealand Law Society summed it up really nicely when they pointed out that the use of urgency in this case was, \u201Cnot demonstrably necessary or appropriate\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe, as the Green Party, oppose this bill for a number of reasons, and I wanted to start with the most foundational aspect of where this bill falls over and that\u2019s with the role of iwi M\u0101ori partnerships and the Crown\u2019s Te Tiriti obligations that should be emphasised in this water service delivery\u2014even in this preliminary bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, there was discussion about this. It was like, \u201COh, you know, that\u2019s covered in other legislation and this and that.\u201D But I want to make it really clear that iwi M\u0101ori have specific rights and responsibilities when it comes to water in Aotearoa in their exercise of tino rangatiratanga and kaitiakitanga. So meaningful consultation and collaboration with iwi M\u0101ori in terms of forming this legislation, in terms of clear things that were actually spelt out in terms of the Crown\u2019s obligations, are essential for upholding their rights and ensuring that water management practices and decisions actually align with cultural values and Te Tiriti obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ESecondly, the removal of Taumata Arowai being able to consider Te Mana o te Wai in the setting of their waste-water standards is really inappropriate. It\u2019s completely short-sighted and it actually introduces considerable complexity and uncertainty into their processes and decision making. We heard really clearly from submitters during hearings on this bill that Te Mana o te Wai was designed as \u201Ca cohesive whole and that the removal of Te Mana o te Wai provisions from Taumata Arowai\u2019s considerations would be a significant step backward for New Zealand in our water management.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe note submissions from public health experts who also considered this removal as \u201Cdeprioritising the safety and quality of people\u2019s drinking water and potentially increasing the risk of illness from polluted drinking water.\u201D That is entirely unacceptable and unnecessary. Te Mana o te Wai was meant to be the driver that actually forced councils and any water service delivery partners to up the game when it comes to drinking water, when it comes to the treatment of waste water and stormwater, and this is a huge missed opportunity. It actually risks locking in immense under-investment in where we should be as a country. The fact that this removal of Te Mana o te Wai from Taumata Arowai waste-water - setting considerations was tacked on in this last-minute amendment bill that the committee has now adopted shows how little time and consideration these changes were actually given by Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe had the Regulations Review Committee and the New Zealand Law Society both clearly spelling out that the proposed amendment is a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause in that it allows secondary legislation to actually override existing primary legislation and shouldn\u2019t be used unless absolutely necessary, which, in this case, it is clear it\u2019s not. It\u2019s simply bad law. The complexity for Taumata Arowai comes into it that they\u2019re even saying that their obligations for decision making under Te Mana o te Wai aren\u2019t clear, because they have it in the overarching legislation. It\u2019s a really bad idea and I\u2019m really disappointed that the committee did not adopt a potential to remove the amendment from the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe other aspects that I wanted to touch on at this stage in the process were: the definition of \u201Cfinancial sustainability\u201D, which we proposed was actually widened to consideration of debt and future borrowing, and also affordability for communities, which has been so well covered by my colleagues across the House, and also consideration of environmental sustainability. The current definition of \u201Cfinancial sustainability\u201D in the bill is much too narrow to provide for that comprehensive decision-making that would actually enable us to have long-term resilient infrastructure and make really good decisions towards that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that was really important that, unfortunately, the committee did not take up was about the time frames in the bill, and I want to spell out here that we know that New Zealand is suffering climate impacts now, and this is only going to be increased in the coming years and decades. I did want to point out, though, that the total replacement value for exposed\u2014particularly local government\u2014infrastructure is in the billions and this is just replacement value, not the actual increase and uplift in our infrastructure that we need to actually respond to increasing sea-level rise and other such climate impacts. Unfortunately, the committee has stuck with the 10-year time frame for the water services delivery plans, which are completely insufficient when it comes to planning for resilient water infrastructure and water services, particularly with these climate impacts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe would have liked to see the required time frame be a minimum of 30 years and have really clear expectations on councils that these plans would consider climate change as recommended by numerous submitters. We would have equally liked to have seen the committee adopt the submissions from local government in granting a more pragmatic 18- to 24-month time frame for submitting their water services delivery plans. Because, as the public health experts summed up really concisely, there\u2019s a high risk that councils and communities with fewer resources or more significant challenges may be underserved by the water services delivery plan processes as currently outlined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EIn those nine days that submissions were open for, there were 182 submissions only; 102 were in opposition and only 19 were explicitly in support. I want to quote the official advice that so clearly spelt out that all councils submitted that \u201CThe cost and resource implications are both unclear and significant for councils, making it challenging to plan or fund the reforms.\u201D And yet this Government is ploughing on. So, in the absence of these really fundamental changes that we\u2019ve just spelt out, the Green Party is hugely disappointed by this missed opportunity to prioritise the health and wellbeing of our communities. We oppose the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022e52051beabe04c80b8d58f5be4975f26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e52051beabe04c80b8d58f5be4975f26\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT supports the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. I just want to clear up some of the misinformation that has been shared by members of the Opposition, not least that member Lan Pham from te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki who has just resumed her seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe problem that this bill seeks to solve is that many, if not most, local government entities, councils around New Zealand have failed to fulfil their obligations to maintain and\u00A0renew their existing water, waste-water, and stormwater assets in a way that meets community expectations, and they\u2019ve failed to provide for growth in the cities and towns that need it. Some cities, like Dunedin, failed to detect that lead solder in pipe joints was poisoning people in suburbs like Karitane. They absolutely failed their communities and they failed their most basic obligations to provide for assets that support the necessities of life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ELocal government was only created because it was a problem when people kept tipping sewage\u2014buckets of sewage\u2014from their windows into the street. It was suggested that maybe if property owners get together and form organisations, which became local councils, we could put pipes in the ground and we could get all of that waste away from the places where we walked and shopped. Now, out of that, councils have then, through successive Government reforms, taken it upon themselves to think they can do just about anything\u2014just that \u201Canything\u201D didn\u2019t include maintaining and operating their assets and providing for housing growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ELook, they collected the money which they supposedly attributed to depreciation of these assets, they collected development contributions from people wanting to build a new home or develop a section, but no one actually checked if they were maintaining their assets and developing them. What that has meant is that not only are we left with a significant deficit in infrastructure quality, which necessitates a very significant investment\u2014and I\u2019ll get to that amount shortly\u2014it means if you want to buy a new home or buy a home in Auckland now in 2024, the cost of that home relative to your income is now 10 times your income, on average, for the average home and the average-income earner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIn the 1980s, when I was a kid growing up in Auckland, it was about three times the average income, notwithstanding changes in interest rates. Three times in the 1980s, 10 times average income now\u2014unaffordable. A large part of that unaffordability is the fact that over many, many decades, councils have failed to provision the infrastructure to enable land to be serviced and that serviced land to be used for housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis Government is going to fix that, not just with this Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill but through our Going for Housing Growth programme, our urgent reforms to the existing Resource Management Act, and our replacement of the Resource Management Act with a new resource management system based on enjoyment of property, so people can actually get on and enjoy building and living in and developing their property. Most importantly of all, in order to enable these things, we are reforming the infrastructure funding and financing system so that it is easier for local government and developers and anyone else who wants to build infrastructure to get access to the finance and, importantly, that the funding stream that will pay off all of that debt through user charges and other mechanisms will also be significantly simplified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo why is this bill so good? Well, firstly, it gets rid of co-governance, which was that awful, divisive, race-based solution to everything that the previous Labour Government tried to impose\u2014who knew?\u2014on concrete pipes and manholes and sewage treatment plants. I mean, who in their right minds in any iwi organisation would want to be responsible for sewage treatment plants? That\u2019s how wonky the previous Labour Government was. Instead of actually addressing specific rights and interests conferred by Treaty settlements, they went all wonky and they said, \u201COh, well. We\u2019re going to stand up these co-governance entities and we\u2019re going to create these massive bureaucracies, and somehow that\u2019s going to discharge the Crown\u2019s obligations to specific iwi and hap\u016B in terms of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D What a load of rubbish. How wrong they were. Not only that, for the $1.2 billion the previous Government spent, most of it on consultants and navel-gazing, so much of it on developing IT systems for asset management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI mean, who knew a spreadsheet that tells us where the manhole is, in which street, how deep it is, what it\u2019s made out of and so on\u2014who knew a spreadsheet could be a very simple asset register? No, the previous Labour Government wanted to spend hundreds of millions, and they\u2019re well on track to spend half a billion dollars, on the ultimate spreadsheet. That\u2019s one of the reasons why they got voted out, because not only does no one trust them to deliver anything, not only do New Zealanders reject out-of-hand crazy co-governance of things like water assets, also if you look at what they spent and what they got, off you go to the Opposition benches for a very, very, very, very, very, very, very long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo what will we do? Well, this Government\u2019s delivering on what ACT campaigned on and what the coalition Government agreed on. Councils get to keep their assets. They can form council-controlled organisations voluntarily. Do you hear that, Labour, over there? Not taking the assets, forcing all of these, what you call, arranged marriages, basically, trafficking all of these councils into the basement and forcing them all to hold hands. No, we will let them form these arrangements voluntarily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ECouncils will, however, be accountable for service delivery, providing for growth, and linking rates and user charges to investment in water, waste-water, and stormwater assets. This is not just a trust model, though. No, not like any previous Government\u2019s policy\u2014we just blow money out the door and, you know, we all hold hands and maybe we say a prayer and we really, really hope the money that we signed away turns into something good. No, this is a trust and check model. This Government\u2019s setting up an economic regulator, which is under development with the Minister of Commerce, which will also include a regulatory backstop power should councils or these water service providers fail to meet their obligations to maintain and operate their assets and provide for growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill also requires councils to deliver water services plans within 12 months. Now, we\u2019ve heard some bleating from councils, echoed by the Opposition\u2014they will echo and amplify any complaint about what this Government might be doing around water and infrastructure and the environment. But, of course, imagine a council complaining that they had to table an asset management plan within 12 months. If they don\u2019t already have one, they should be sacked. The voters should vote them out. I mean, for goodness\u2019 sakes, a water services plan is simply an asset management plan that says what pipes have we got, what manholes have we got, how many people live here, how much water will we have to supply, how much waste water will we have to take away. If councils don\u2019t have this now, they are in dereliction of their duty and that\u2019s another reason why this Government\u2019s water reforms are so desperately needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis bill sets the scene for the next two years where this Government will be setting clear rules and objectives for delivery of infrastructure, how it\u2019s to be funded and financed, making a lot more tools available, but also making it very clear that we do not accept that different parts of Government, whether they\u2019re public sector agencies or local government, can just stand back and say \u201CCrikey, we hope that somebody from Government comes along and solves our problems.\u201D Or, if you\u2019re an agency, \u201CCrikey, I hope we get more money in next year\u2019s budget.\u201D We\u2019re actually going to hold them to account for solving the problems that those agencies and those parts of Government are tasked to solve\u2014in this case, local government\u2014make sure that the pipes aren\u2019t leaking, make sure you\u2019ve got sufficient capacity to allow for growth, make sure that when your waste-water treatment plant comes up for consent renewal, you\u2019ve actually got a design in the back pocket that\u2019s ready to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd by the way, if people are telling you, \u201COh, geez, you know, we\u2019ve got to think about the cultural impacts of where we put the waste water.\u201D, well, in places like Singapore, the waste water from buildings with 5,000 apartments and 5,000 people living in apartments can get turned back into drinking water. So if we can\u2019t treat our waste water to drinking-water standard and put it into a river, put it into a stream, put it into the harbour, because of some kind of cultural constraint, this country\u2019s never going to succeed. We have to solve that too, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re changing the hierarchy of the national policy statement for fresh water and we\u2019re going to make sure that it\u2019s going to be cost-effective and simple to deliver these solutions for Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022e17243faff78401f8f08c1d6ff6423dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e17243faff78401f8f08c1d6ff6423dd\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, we have major infrastructure challenges across this whole country, and it\u2019s not just water. In fact, when we talk about water in local government, sometimes we forget that central government is not particularly good at this at all either. Simon Court, the asset management plans you talked about\u2014I love asset management plans. One of the problems we\u2019ve got in this country is we don\u2019t have enough of them, particularly in central government, and central government is not very good at managing its assets either. It\u2019s got to get better at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThis is the next stage of replacing Labour\u2019s convoluted, divisive, massively over-expensive, centralised three waters legislation. To listen to what the Opposition is saying, you\u2019d kind of think that if we\u2019d left that in place, all the water would be fixed now. But that was never going to happen. It was going to take years, decades, to be delivered regardless of what the model is. It\u2019s as though there was a magic answer there in the three waters model. The other thing to remember\u2014and we\u2019ve had commentary there about the rates increases this year\u2014is that three waters under Labour\u2019s model wasn\u2019t going to come in this year or next year. I think it might have started to come in the year after that. Those rates rises would still have been happening, three waters or no three waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty talked about rates rises, and, look, yeah, in a way what they were trying to do is take the waters away from councils, give them to somebody else, give them to those four, then 10, water entities, but somebody was going to have to pay for that. There was no magic money tree\u2014there was no magic money tree. The people that were going to have to pay for that were the people that consumed the water or used the wastewater. And guess what! They are the same people, by and large. So it was still going to be a cost on the same people. In fact, what it probably would have done is it would have released councils from some of the discipline that they would then have to have in fixing the water system first. That is really, really important. This is the next stage in this Government fixing the water system. Councils at the moment are clearly struggling. We\u2019ve seen those rates rise. I\u2019ve talked about that. They\u2019re very high\u2014they\u2019re unaffordably high\u2014at the moment, but this is the first stage, or the next stage, in helping them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI also wanted to mention that we are also helping them in reducing the cost of working on the roads. In fact, sometimes we hear from the Opposition benches mocking of the work that\u2019s being done to reduce the cost of working on the roads. But that is really, really significant. It\u2019s not just about work on the roads; it\u2019s also about the utilities that go underneath the roads. I\u2019ve talked to council CEs, and they\u2019ve said that the cost of the working on the roads, the traffic management, is up to 40 percent\u201440 percent\u2014of the cost of delivering those projects, driven by health and safety and all the other things. That is a huge cost. If we can get that cost down\u2014and we\u2019ve had this confirmed at the Transport and Infrastructure Committee; we\u2019ve had this confirmed\u2014that will flow directly through into the cost of delivering new water services or replacing water services. That is a really significant part of helping them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard a comment about two towns in the Wairarapa which have paused development. Again, three waters wasn\u2019t going to magically fix that. What fixes that over time is being able to levy development on growth so that growth pays for the new capacity that is needed. One example of this\u2014the cost of working on the roads is definitely going to be part of this\u2014is that in the last year, right before the 2022 election, we were faced with Wellington Water coming to the Wellington City Council and saying, \u201COh, by the way, we\u2019re going to have to revalue all the underground assets that we\u2019ve got by\u201D\u201410\u00A0percent, 20 percent, 30 percent?\u2014\u201C80 percent.\u201D\u201480 percent. Now, imagine what that does to your rates bill\u2014a catastrophic effect. We went back to them and said, \u201CHey, I think we need to rethink that. We need to talk that one through, because that is far, far too significant an impact to be able to be worn, especially in one year.\u201D We should be expecting that councils should be rethinking their costs, not only in the light of the changes that we are making to legislation now, the changes that will come, but also in the reduction of the cost of working on the roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill do? Well, first of all, it creates greater oversight from Government, and actually that matters, because, actually, Government has been overseeing councils for decades through the Office of the Auditor-General (OAG). But how high has the OAG raised the red flag and been saying, \u201CHey, we know that there has been under-investment for decades.\u201D? Have you seen that red flag being raised and them saying, \u201CYou must do something about this, councils. You must do something about that.\u201D? They\u2019ve started to do\u00A0that in the last couple of years, but it\u2019s too late. That infrastructure deficit is already there. Government needed to be overseeing councils and saying, \u201CWe expect changes to be done.\u201D And if the asset management plan is not good enough, do something about it, because otherwise we\u2019re not signing off your annual plans, your LTPs, etc. You must do something about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhat else does the bill do? Well, it requires water service delivery plans. We\u2019ve heard the comment that 10 years is not long enough. Actually, I\u2019d be inclined to agree; a longer term is a good thing, because these assets are going to be assets which, by and large, should be lasting 100 years. That actually is really, really important. The longer-term thinking is really important. But having a water services delivery plan is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe second thing is transparent information for the community. Well, it should already be there, but that\u2019s really, really important as well, because that\u2019s how you hold councils to account. It\u2019s also how we should be held to account in terms of our asset management of the assets that the Government looks after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EMaking it easier to establish or change CCOs and other collaborative arrangements\u2014that\u2019s a good thing. It allows councils to be more flexible in getting together, working together, and, hopefully, delivering some economies of scale. It allows the financial separation of Watercare from Auckland Council, which has already been announced. Obviously, financially, that\u2019s a significant advantage to the ratepayers of Auckland. So that\u2019s a really, really good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe other one I just wanted to mention was that it requires Taumata Arowai to set standards. That is really, really important, but what those standards are is going to be really, really critical, and that those standards are realistic\u2014they give us better quality water, better quality discharge to water, but that they are also realistic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had Te Mana o te Wai mentioned. One of the things about Te Mana o te Wai is that it is a hierarchy. At the top of the hierarchy, it says we look after the health of the water, then we look after the health of human beings, and then we do all the other things that we need to do for our economic, social, and cultural good. The problem with hierarchies is that I\u2019ve seen them interpreted. No. 1 is the one that gets picked, and Nos 2 and 3 are there, but if there is any conflict between Nos 2 and 3 and No. 1, Nos 2 and 3 get ignored. If you ignore the needs of the people and the needs of their social, cultural, and economic impacts, that becomes a real problem. Getting the model right, getting the incentives right, getting the oversight right is really, really important. This is the next step in that, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002268bc2b685bef402d89ba4501f40abdc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268bc2b685bef402d89ba4501f40abdc5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that the next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022acd6a2b5d9064abf8e2c7e27915f890d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acd6a2b5d9064abf8e2c7e27915f890d\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. E mihi atu ana ki a t\u0101tou t\u0113nei w\u0101. I\u2019d like to acknowledge Andy Foster, the previous speaker from New Zealand First, highlighting te mana o te wai, because te mana o te wai is holistic. Te mana o te wai looks at the entire ecosystem: tangata, wh\u0101nau, hapori, and then, ultimately, that wai-inu, so that it is free, the taiao is clean. I struggle when I hear that the hierarchy limits the way that we look after our wai m\u0101ori, because te mana o te wai is about fresh drinking water, te mana o te wai is about the needs of the community, and te mana o te wai is, ultimately, about social, economic, and cultural wellbeing. So I\u2019d encourage us to really think about the fact that the indigenous models that are gifted to the Government are an asset and something to provide guidance. It\u2019s, again, another example of plus-plus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIt is sad, because we can be giving mihi to M\u0101ori one day, and then the next day we\u2019re passing legislation that will takah\u0113 M\u0101ori. So here we are again, another piece of legislation\u2014e takah\u0113 ana e te mana o te wai. Reflecting on submissions that have been received and considering the fact that there was unity around the lack of engagement with te iwi M\u0101ori on the process in this bill. Now, that came through really strongly from Te Whakakitenga o Waikato, T\u016Bwharetoa M\u0101ori Trust Board, Te Arawa Lakes Trust, Ng\u0101 Iwi o Taranaki, Te Rangap\u016B Mana Whenua o Tauranga Moana, Taumatamakuku, Te Kahu o Taonui, Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu\u2014all said, there\u2019s been a lack of engagement. In fact, this bill needs to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, this bill needs to give effect to te mana o te wai, and this bill needs to recognise our special rights and interests of hap\u016B and iwi in wai m\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s so disappointing that we\u2019re at this point, because the Crown is not meeting their obligations to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, they are ignoring the fact that councils themselves submitted, saying, \u201CWe appreciate M\u0101ori at the table.\u201D In fact, Andy Foster, who spoke previously, was one of the biggest advocates for iwi voice at the table in Wellington, and, you know, provided voting rights to my wh\u0101nau of Ng\u0101ti Toa and Taranaki Wh\u0101nui in the standing committees, plus they got paid the same amount as counsellors. So I mihi to my colleague because, ultimately, M\u0101ori at the table is a plus-plus. You get our skills, you get our expertise, you get our tirohanga M\u0101ori, and there you go, we\u2019re at the tepu. Co-governance is not something to fear. Ultimately, if we\u2019re all in it together, then we move out into the community together, and that\u2019s what three waters provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EMay I speak to being a previous CEO and working with Waipunarangi for entity A. We spent, as iwi, months and months of time with the transition groups, talking about HR, we were talking about data, we were looking at asset management plans from T\u0101maki ki Te Rerenga Wairua. We were working hard with our council colleagues and also with the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014m\u014D te kore take noa iho\u2014[for no purpose at all.] It became nothing and that was such a shame. Ultimately, what was interesting was that many hap\u016B and iwi never had a look at water asset management plans until Waipunarangi lifted the lid for them to take a peek, because councils had had exclusivity in that space. They had not engaged us until there was a resource consent. Waipunarangi opened the opportunity for hap\u016B and iwi to be at the table. What a moumou\u2014it\u2019s such a waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EAs our colleagues have shared, \u201CHey, there\u2019s nothing wrong with t\u016Btae in the moana. Let\u2019s let the t\u016Btae go out into the moana.\u201D Hey, you know, the wh\u0101nau in Hokianga went to the Environmental Court and fought against that t\u016Btae to go out into Hokianga Whakapau Karakia. Ultimately, Te Mana o te Wai is the framework that protects all of us\u2014M\u0101ori mai, P\u0101keh\u0101 mai, tauiwi mai\u2014and Te Tiriti o Waitangi is the central pillar for us to mahi tahi. That is why it is so disappointing that we\u2019re at this point. Why remove Te Mana o te Wai? Why relegate us just back to the Local Government Act and cross our fingers that M\u0101ori will get a say? Because if you don\u2019t entrench the requirement for councils to engage with us, then we\u2019re chasing them like we have in the past. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf7fef6f48ec437fb614d659138dbfd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf7fef6f48ec437fb614d659138dbfd0\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d just like to point out, actually, every New Zealander has rights and responsibilities and interests when it comes to water. Everybody does, and, actually, this bill restores equality when it comes to governance arrangements and access to water, and that\u2019s as it should be. That\u2019s modern democracy and that\u2019s where we should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThis bill was great. It\u2019s true it was a shortened report-back date that we had. None the less, we had 182 submissions and actually they were high-quality submissions. The submitters that appeared before the Finance and Expenditure Committee really added to the process, and so I\u2019d like to thank them on behalf of the committee. I\u2019d like to thank my fellow Finance and Expenditure Committee members who worked very hard on this bill in a shortened report-back date, so it really added to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIt had some unique features, this bill. We had to get clearance under Standing Order 295(1)(b) to get the power to consider an out-of-scope amendment, which was Amendment Paper 41, which was appropriate, but I think it\u2019s the first time I\u2019ve struck that in select committee, so it was rather unique, and that brought a lot to the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThis is the second of three bills. Ultimately, it replaces three waters with Local Water Done Well, which is a fantastic plan, actually. As my colleague from New Zealand First mentioned before, having more Government oversight of what\u2019s going on with councils is a great help, because, obviously, when we look around, some councils have made a real hash of their water infrastructure assets. We don\u2019t have to walk too far from this building to see that bubbling up in the street ourselves. So that was very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWe had also a good old \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause. We had a submission from the New Zealand Law Society and the Regulations Review Committee on clause 102 in regard to the danger of it being a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause and the dangers around that\u2014well, it is a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause; let\u2019s be clear: we looked at the guidelines and absolutely it fits within that. However, the clause doesn\u2019t pose a constitutional risk, because Parliament actually had a policy that that will give effect to. Parliament and the executive gives policy, right? But the executive can\u2019t do that on its own. Having that regulation-making power so an Order in Council can extinguish those particular clauses\u2014that\u2019s what it does. Until the National Policy Statement on Freshwater Management is replaced, that is still in line with the policy intent. So it was a really good lesson, I think, for the committee; a few new members on our committee\u2014I don\u2019t know, probably the first time a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause has come up, and it was a very interesting discussion on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EWhen three waters came up from the previous Government, I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve seen as many road signs and had so much email traffic about anything, so water is very dear to people. Why is it so dear to them? Because, obviously, none of us can survive without water and none of us can survive, really, as we found out\u2014and I\u2019m sure my colleague Catherine Wedd will talk about what happened in Havelock North\u2014without having clean and safe water, so getting this right is really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI congratulate the Minister of Local Government on the work that he and his team have done, and the officials that advised the committee for the work that they did under such a tight time frame, and I think this bill is actually what we need in New Zealand and it gets New Zealand back on the track of democracy. With great pleasure, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd6d7fc9199e46cab982bc8f357543dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd6d7fc9199e46cab982bc8f357543dd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E The speaker who just took his seat, Stuart Smith, said this is a bill to get New Zealand back on track. This is yet another example of a Government that is taking New Zealand backwards. We see this through this bill. Up and down the country, before the election, parties of the then Opposition paraded around, telling people across the land that they were going to restore local decision-making and democracy to our water services and that they were going to relieve the cost burden. Labour will not be supporting this bill, because, in fact, on both of these counts, this bill goes backwards. This bill imposes more costs on the ratepayers of New Zealand. Despite the rhetoric of what we\u2019re hearing from members\u2014and I\u2019ll go into it in some detail\u2014actually, there is nothing in this bill to give local councils any comfort that they are going to be in charge of their own destinies when it comes to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk about that local decision-making, the much-vaunted local decision-making that was paraded around the country prior to the election. One of the things that we know is that the Government talked big about the Affordable Water Reforms, alleging they undermined local decision-making, but this bill that we\u2019ve got fails to provide for community involvement in the preparation of the water services plans that sit within this legislation. Under this bill, the community\u2014and I think this is very important for people to understand\u2014will have no guaranteed right to be part of the process where their local councils prepare the central government - mandated water services plans. I think that\u2019s something that people need to understand very clearly\u2014that there is no guaranteed right for people to have that local say in these water services plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a major gap in this bill, and this is highlighted by the bill providing that the consultation must occur to establish, join, or amend council-controlled organisations that are to deliver those plans. The obligation to consult does not extend beyond that. It does not extend to the water services plans, itself; it is merely around the vehicles that will be putting together those water services plans. So anyone who is sitting out there in viewer land, thinking that, upcoming, they\u2019re going to have a chance\u2014and a guaranteed chance\u2014to have a say on their local water services plan, I\u2019m afraid that is not the case. You may well have been misled. You may well have been led down the garden path by a Government that went on the campaign hustings, saying one thing, but has come to the House with a piece of legislation that does the exact opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt does not stop there. One of the things that we know in terms of the vehicle being what is required to be consulted on, rather than the plans, there\u2019s also an obligation to consult imposed on the secretary of DIA\u2014or the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014when exercising the power to make rules in relation to the water services plans. But the secretary of DIA is obliged to consult with named organisations when considering the water services plans submitted by local councils. This is not the ratepayers. This is not everyday people in the street who thought they were going to have a say on what those local water plans would say. There is lots of mandatory consultation embedded in here but none of it is directed at communities. This is not about communities having their say; this is about a Government putting up a bill that is maintaining that control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Government does retain the whip hand in this, and I think they need to be very clear with New Zealanders that that\u2019s what they\u2019re doing. We\u2019ll go through some of the obligations that are imposed on councils, and what councils had to say. But here\u2019s the cracker, because the Government made sure they got in here the ability to appoint a Crown facilitator for recalcitrant councils in addition to appointing a Crown water services specialist\u2014so \u201CDo what we say or we\u2019ll take over.\u201D That is what this legislation is saying. So this much-vaunted return of democracy to local communities was nothing but a sham. It is not hiding in this bill. It is not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s turn our attention to costs, because that\u2019s one of the other key things that, up and down the land, the Opposition\u2014as they then were; they nowadays call themselves the Government for the next two years\u2014went around the country telling people that they were going to reduce costs. They talk about how much we spend on it. That is because we have to, as a country, spend money to upgrade our waters infrastructure. This is not some kind of thing we can put on the \u201Cnever never\u201D and kick the can even further down the road. What this bill has done is impose a whole lot of compliance on council, but nowhere is there a mention of funding; nowhere is there the ability for councils to actually carry this out. Who is going to pay for it? That still is not clear. Remember, let\u2019s go back to that ability for the Crown to appoint that facilitator; for the Crown to walk in and take over if they don\u2019t do exactly what the Government says. So impose a whole lot of very unrealistic expectations around time lines and what is expected, provide zero funding, but say you\u2019ll walk in and take over if you need to. That\u2019s what we\u2019re seeing in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat does this mean for New Zealanders in terms of cost? Someone has to pay for this\u2014that the infrastructure needs to be upgraded. Let\u2019s look around our country. Let\u2019s go through some numbers: 15.8 percent rates increases, that\u2019s Tauranga City Council; 17 percent, that\u2019s K\u0101piti Coast; let\u2019s look at 18.5 percent, that\u2019s Wellington; and 14.75 percent, that\u2019s Kaik\u014Dura. These are the kinds of rates increases that New Zealanders around the country are facing because\u2014and councils are saying this themselves\u2014they have to fund their three waters work. That is what this means for New Zealanders. We\u2019ve seen this much-vaunted community democracy sham. What we\u2019ve seen is imposed costs on New Zealanders in terms of increased rates and having to dig into their pockets because this was a Government that decided it was going to be fun; that dog-whistled some billboards to put up around the country in the lead-up to the general election, and parties who took great delight in doing that, and we\u2019re seeing many provisions of that in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe problems with this bill don\u2019t stop with the fact it doesn\u2019t return local decision-making; it doesn\u2019t stop with the fact it\u2019s imposing costs on New Zealanders. Let\u2019s have a look at the fact that it fails to protect public ownership. Under Labour\u2019s legislation, there were protections around public ownership\u2014that was not something that Government members were even willing to countenance. One of the things that we said is that we need to ensure that these are assets that stay in public ownership\u2014this is in the public interest to do so. So we have a Government that is imposing requirements on council with no money to do it and a cost that has to be borne through rates increases, yet won\u2019t protect public ownership. I can add: I know what those things usually add up to. I need a Government member to stand in this House today and give an ironclad guarantee that they are not setting up to hock off our water assets and get them out of public ownership. Because the fact they would not commit to that is something to be afraid of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, in my last minute, if New Zealanders needed any greater evidence of the fact that this wasn\u2019t a return to local decision-making, it has happened in this House this afternoon. We had a member of the executive in Simon Court\u2014who is an under-secretary who was sworn in as a member of the executive\u2014stand up and talk about sacking councils if they fail to provide what was expected of them. This is what members of the executive of this Government\u2014how much they value local democracy and local decision-making.  That is the very vibe that is entwined through this bill. It is a bill that does not protect local democracy; in fact, it erodes it. It is a bill that imposes cost, and it\u2019s a bill that fails to protect public ownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b613a51d8f2740c0966844bb47889cc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b613a51d8f2740c0966844bb47889cc8\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I would just like to answer to the member who\u2019s been speaking, Megan Woods, about costs on the other side of the House and I\u2019ll give her a figure: $1.2 billion of wasteful spending on consultants, on your controversial, divisive three waters\u2014$1.2 billion worth of wasteful spending with nothing, absolutely nothing, to show for it. Nothing to show for it: bureaucracy, undemocratic, centralisation, $1.2 billion on three waters with no delivery. Look, we\u2019re a Government of delivery and we are delivering good legislation which is going to deliver local democracy and going to deliver good water infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EI am from Havelock North, which is where a lot of this stemmed from. The Havelock North water crisis\u2014everyone will remember it\u2014where four people died. I would just like to acknowledge those families who lost their loved ones and have had their lives changed for ever. I do remember it very, very clearly. It was a Friday afternoon and reports were coming through from our local schools that half our kids were coming home sick. They had a vomiting bug. Everyone thought a vomiting bug was just going around. Little did we know. My husband had left for a weekend of hunting. He\u2019d filled the water bottles up\u00A0before he left with Havelock North water, contaminated water, drinking it all weekend, becoming sicker and sicker. My young babies were drinking the water and becoming sick.  Our whole community literally felt like we were being poisoned by the water. For days, we were drinking contaminated water that was making thousands of people sick\u2014over 5,000 people. This was not OK. Our council was in charge of our drinking water and they failed us. It was horrific. It was like a horror movie. Four people died because we did not have safe drinking water. My neighbour contracted a severe health condition. He\u2019s never recovered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EWhen water is unsafe, it impacts our most vulnerable, our elderly, our sick, and our babies. Havelock North prompted change. We all know that we must do more to ensure that we have safe drinking water, but the way to do it is through localism and democratic processes. Hastings District Council has already spent $100 million on creating a world first, a world-class drinking-water system. It\u2019s been done locally and it\u2019s been the first in the world. Hawke\u2019s Bay councils were the first to be against the three waters legislation. They got together and they supported National\u2019s \u201Cwater done well\u201D, because councils support localism and keeping our assets in local ownership, and that is why this is a good bill. It is about localism, it is about democracy, and it is about delivery, and that is why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022904860fa539340189026e7aba4a2402c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022904860fa539340189026e7aba4a2402c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I take the points that the member who has just spoken, Catherine Wedd, made about the need for safe drinking water. What happened in Havelock North was a tragedy. People died because the water that came out of their taps that should have been safe was not. This is a deeply serious problem which we need to solve. We need to ensure that the drinking water in this country is safe. So the question is how to do that. What is the best way to do that? How do we ensure that each of us up and down the country can turn the tap on, get a glass of water, and drink it, knowing that it is safe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we believe that burden should be shared up and down the country. We believe that all of us need to contribute to that\u2014that all of us need to look after each other. I want to call to the House\u2019s mind a submission that was made by one particular district council. I\u2019m not going to name who this district council was because, frankly, I was appalled by what they said. What they said was, \u201CWe\u2019re OK. We\u2019ve spent the money. We don\u2019t care about our neighbours. We don\u2019t care about the people one town over. We don\u2019t care about the people in that district to the north of us. We\u2019re OK. To hell with them.\u201D That was the gist of their submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, when we looked at that particular district council, it turns out that that particular district council comes from a relatively wealthy area with relatively few urban areas to serve. They were able to charge rates in a way that enabled them to set up their water supplies so that they could do it going forward into the future. But their neighbouring district council was not in such a wealthy area, had not been able to rate in a way that enabled them to build up infrastructure, and was desperately worried about how it could meet the regulations that were to be imposed by that side of the House. Let\u2019s be clear, we need the clean, safe drinking water. The issue is how to pay for it. On that side of the House, they are saying to some district councils, to some areas of the country: \u201CTo hell with you\u2014to hell with you. We don\u2019t care that you\u2019ve got to put your rates up. We don\u2019t care that your ratepayers can\u2019t afford it. To hell with you.\u201D That\u2019s the essence of the solution that they\u2019re proposing over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe already know that rates are going up dramatically across the country. My colleague Megan Woods ran us through it: 15.8 percent in Tauranga, 17.1 percent on the K\u0101piti Coast, 18.5 percent in Wellington, 14.75 percent in Kaik\u014Dura. Rates are going up, and in some areas, ratepayers can no longer pay. In the Far North, 20 percent of ratepayers have not been able to pay their latest rates instalment. And this Government over there wants to add yet more costs on to them. We had a solution in place. We had a solution in place that meant that all of us cared for each other in this country, that meant that all of us shared in the burden of ensuring that everyone had clean drinking water, that meant that those of us who live in the urban areas could go to other parts of the country when we\u2019re on holiday and turn the tap on and be assured that the quality of the drinking water was as fantastic as it was in our homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe were going to share the cost across the country, because that\u2019s what we do as New Zealanders: we look after each other. We try to ensure that all of us have access to the same standard of living. But not on that side of the House. \u201CTo hell with the poor.\u201D, they said. \u201CTo hell with the areas that simply couldn\u2019t afford to pay the rates.\u201D They are just abandoning them, and they have no solution in place. This is an appalling bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dce1688221d2429a90df767812bdf856\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dce1688221d2429a90df767812bdf856\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to say, first of all, thank you to the Minister and also all of the Finance and Expenditure Committee (FEC) members and all the submitters\u2014people who have written to us, came to speak to us, came to present to us\u2014and all of the FEC members and clerks who sat there and listened patiently to understand their perspectives. Now, this bill is here to provide the preliminary and the foundational provision for the framework of long-term, new, sustainable, certain, water-quality infrastructure for all of New Zealand. So this is actually us giving the framework, giving the powers back to local people who understand what is needed to be done locally for the peoples in our local community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders need better water quality. New Zealanders deserve to have good, clean water. Our future generations need certainty\u2014our future generations need certainty of the sustainable water infrastructure going into the many generations. What New Zealanders don\u2019t need is the waste of time. So, with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002298abfa85cd53431391b5da2ed7563cdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298abfa85cd53431391b5da2ed7563cdf\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 July 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.57 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240725ceb35513cd614641905b5594ba555fbe000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"