"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae8e7d0e5bc5442dbbe0250dc1f49d88\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 7 AUGUST 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a02af6de0ca4ebba56e49ccf231ed6a\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 7 AUGUST 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d073906a62c40eebbdcfd204b0a6222\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5c4fd09aaf248858c98699ecb150696\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00223263c19327e74b69abf5f1bce25df491\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223263c19327e74b69abf5f1bce25df491\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Te Atua Mana, te akameitaki atu nei matou iakoe no toou takinga meitaki taau i riringi mai ki runga ia matou. Te akaruke nei matou i to matou tu tangata, te akamaara nei matou i te Ariki, e te pure nei matou kia arataki koe i ta matou uriuri anga manako, kia rave matou i ta matou angaanga i roto i teia ngutuare na roto i te pakari, te tuatua tika e te akaaka no te meitaki e te au o to matou basileia Aotearoa. Amene. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002296b41b472d4f4f039a0c192b36f68970\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cbeff6c389b468a82b423e415c70a0b\u0022\u003ELaos\u2014National Assembly\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223810f5f5e0c648028189835c88bfa90a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223810f5f5e0c648028189835c88bfa90a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure members will want to join with me in welcoming and wishing a warm stay in New Zealand to members of the Lao National Assembly, who are present here in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b75425f576b14a02a9cfa659ef6555f2\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222013e827460b4afdaadc2e9ee28cf8be\u0022\u003ETe Reo M\u0101ori\u2014Removal from Matariki Invitation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002263f8c7d126794b9dacd7abecbc329341\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263f8c7d126794b9dacd7abecbc329341\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received an urgent debate letter from the Hon Willie Jackson seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the removal of te reo M\u0101ori from an invitation to Matariki celebrations from the Minister of Arts, Culture and Heritage. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. The big hurdle, however, for applications for urgent debate is whether the issue raised warrants setting aside the business of the House. This application does not meet that threshold. The application is declined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002231c409d3edb742dc8035267fa1ecc87e\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022332584e3cb8f435fbb3c65044f7cf57f\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1375eef59244a56b760807ae97ae302\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1375eef59244a56b760807ae97ae302\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022dce572d1664c45329be8ed280852f6f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dce572d1664c45329be8ed280852f6f3\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Chloe Hatch requesting that the House urge the Government to increase funding for mental health counselling services in primary and intermediate schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220907436bab5741ad9b086bf3f61c8170\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220907436bab5741ad9b086bf3f61c8170\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. No papers have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00228150a77d667b4b2bb9da4d934b52ec10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228150a77d667b4b2bb9da4d934b52ec10\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Governance and Administration Committee on the 2024-25 Estimates for Vote Prime Minister and Cabinet\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Health Committee (interim report) on the Improving Arrangements for Surrogacy Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223cc2420f17394b79b61a2f5439db71b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cc2420f17394b79b61a2f5439db71b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The interim report on the bill is set down for consideration. There have been no bills introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220483eafe89b4450db13bb6c15553cfd7\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e60b1bbb01247ecb8337aba58f60a7f\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225da91a9381784f22a7f5b884aaa7c1ab\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11 to Minister, 6 August\u2014Amended Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022c819fec39237466589f9e3f94fa7cdb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c819fec39237466589f9e3f94fa7cdb6\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to correct an answer I gave in response to oral question No. 11 yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af9095cc51b041f0b2a7d7011f70a645\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256dde33e2fa0428fb7c03a879f02d081\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In my primary response to the Hon Ginny Andersen in oral question No. 11 yesterday, I stated that family violence and sexual violence were an important component of the Government target to reduce violent crime by having 20 percent fewer people be victims of assaults, robberies, and sexual assaults. I meant to say 20,000 fewer people, not 20 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022efc4a1bffbf44a5397655f058eaef026\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00222284d715c7a24055994c7feadd43b87c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222284d715c7a24055994c7feadd43b87c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00220c7e4496cd63449daca734d2debe9449\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c7e4496cd63449daca734d2debe9449\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially the steps that we are taking to restore confidence in New Zealand\u2019s energy industry. New Zealand needs a rational energy policy, but, instead, previous Governments spent years undermining private sector investment, creating the conditions for future shortages and pricing spikes. Now Kiwis are experiencing the consequences. This morning, Simeon Brown called in the gentailers to make it clear that they must be competitive in the energy market. We\u2019re taking action to restore confidence in the energy sector and to enable investment. That means ending the ban on oil and gas; it means cancelling Lake Onslow; it means bringing in fast track to enable more investment, including renewables; and, of course, it\u2019s all part of our plan to rebuild the economy and to make sure we have energy security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f5f38f4bbcf4e2da499a62ecf15bda0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does his Minister for Trade\u2019s statement \u201CYou\u2019re not in Mexico now. We don\u2019t do things like that here.\u201D and subsequent dismissal of concern, calling it \u201Cfriendly banter\u201D, reflect the standard of behaviour he expects from his Ministers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe51a8e3e0d54d408db7d28ebb0084fc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It was good to see the Minister withdraw and apologise for that statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e28fe65223745baa928e8b7c2fe8a0f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that the number one excuse invoked by the perpetrators of harassment in the workplace, be it racism, sexism, or otherwise, is to excuse that behaviour as friendly banter, and, if so, is that the type of workplace culture he is trying to create?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245aea8b64c69428a879f0c6dee85d17c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d just say it\u2019s a bit rich coming from that member, who this morning, just a few hours ago, was on Radio New Zealand exhorting the fact that everybody needs to watch their rhetoric\u2014a message that I have played back over a number of months\u2014and yet he has a former Minister and a senior MP condoning putting up a video saying that I\u2019m killing children. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9cae258df1b4d2e94e5e6a0d59a1448\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270b4e77d38da4447893e5d55ae50d8b5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Points of order are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dace7a465f74544b2d57696071b3bb4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister doesn\u2019t have any responsibility for other members of Parliament. He does have responsibility for Ministers in his Government, and that was what my question was about. It was about a comment made by a Minister in his Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257808a165da54adb8504a6fe3e78c108\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I think the Prime Minister was making a point, but I\u2019ll ask the Prime Minister to add to his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d1d9e4a00de41149563e3f351fb7afe\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve been saying, I am asking all political leaders to watch their rhetoric.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb4920bf55da4f80b63b4871dc0a7dca\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: In that case, is his Minister of Foreign Affairs providing a running commentary on the gender of international athletes consistent with the standard of behaviour that he expects of his Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a38ff5741d544c5c9cbbf38e21ad135b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That claim and that question requires it to be authenticated. I have the post, it says nothing of the sort, and I expect him to get up now and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9be16834c35457fae917b4486e99518\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the first point is supplementaries are seldom, if ever, able to be authenticated, because they are part of an onflow of discussion. However, if the Minister feels that he has been in some way impugned, then he has a right to reply. Did you want to do that, or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc013e991aa949219f6e59797aac71fa\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, by way of my point of order, I have given you my reply. His question is based on drivel, and a nonsense repeated by Louisa Wall, who herself didn\u2019t bother to verify what she was writing about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210e0fe607d234387ac5fb5e6e08298ca\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister want to add anything to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf1a86e6fe074b1eb6936a28a2045e90\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242a4252d8a3e44d8a1859cf09c876a02\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked the Prime Minister whether the statement made by the Minister of Foreign Affairs was consistent with the behaviour expected of his Ministers. He hasn\u2019t even attempted to address or even reply to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278d6311dd1c5420486e356c1267a6c80\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know. But if the Minister has taken a point of order taking exception to the question and the assertion of the question, he\u2019s got a right to reply to that under our Standing Orders. He has replied that it is not accurate, and, therefore, his member\u2019s word has to be accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5a8bdaacd9441ba8e914d97a88ebb5a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That doesn\u2019t mean the Prime Minister shouldn\u2019t then have to address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022789c376de4e14cb38d08c3dfda4f87c1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s right, and I asked the Prime Minister whether he wished to. His comment was \u201CNo.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad592e575295482b8de162f43618b2b1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, point of order, Mr Speaker. Are you indicating that a Prime Minister simply can say he doesn\u2019t want to address the question, because the only grounds on which a Minister can say they\u2019re not going to address a question is if they don\u2019t believe it\u2019s in the public interest to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226750eeaf678045018901caaeda86fbc2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not going to speak for the Prime Minister. I can assume that when the Prime Minister said that, he was imagining that since it had been denied, there wasn\u2019t a great deal of public interest in continuing. But I will ask the Prime Minister if he would like to respond to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022419419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296ba55a8f91a4fa1b7b6eea924537252\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, the Minister has denied it, but what I\u2019d say is that Minister is doing an exceptionally good job as a Foreign Minister for New Zealand, and we should be incredibly proud of him because he is lifting the intensity and the urgency of our relationships across the Indo-Pacific like no one has done before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a69e0cfc87b4ff686bf14c9ede2c0ec\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does his Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage\u2019s decision to remove te reo M\u0101ori from formal letters inviting an Australian Minister, who is a champion of indigenous languages, to New Zealand for Matariki celebrations reflect the standard of behaviour that he expects from his Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d359e3a3d65a46c0abee9fd7fe191663\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would just say to that member we value te reo in this Government. What I\u2019d also say to that member is the correspondence was being directed to an Australian Minister overseas, and what I\u2019d say to you is, in my dealings with Australians, it always pays to be incredibly simple and clear and use English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b1f9e37949487f863728a9c2403e64\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Good to see him leading by example! Supplementary\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deeb6cf084ba43319671bb3bb6a66742\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, just wait\u2014just wait. The member\u2019s own party is just taking a little time to settle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d22f8a39d45454fbf7177a7f45df357\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does his Minister\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229805f1f609d4725afa05e78e8e68685\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just hang on, we\u2019ll just wait until the House is quiet. Now we\u2019re right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be97eb3541654eefa272753c662df000\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Does his Minister for Children\u2019s refusal to answer questions in the House last week in preference to wearing an ACT Party badge reflect the standard of behaviour he expects of his Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3fffca2ae894f6a8127a7c1d6afcfe7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I fully support our Minister for Children and Oranga Tamariki\u2014she\u2019s doing a fantastic job. What I\u2019d say to the member is what a petty line of questions that we\u2019re seeing today. This is a country where our economy is in real trouble, this is a country where we cannot deliver health and education services as well as we need to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8299b65933c4846b358626058251f21\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6582341615446a69e4d31c944b2871b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and we have rising levels of crime\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201ca27b602964960984e917c903be35e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order\u2014please sit down, Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2cc09dd46594dd6a0c3988fcb51722d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and this is the line of questioning from the Leader of the Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209bff4118cdd4b2ba95315e3f94014aa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. [Government members applaud] Right, another outburst like that and someone will, on a representative basis, take an early day. [Interruption] Who laughed then? Point of order, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022851f631c293341cd9356083c8cc5e05f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, this is actually a serious question. It\u2019s the first time in the 16 years that I have been a member of Parliament that a Minister has refused to stand up whilst being in the House and answer a parliamentary question. That is the job of Ministers, and I think the Prime Minister should be expected to address that question, rather than do the very thing that he\u2019s been telling everyone else all week not to do and attack the questioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d54bc40479c14be49a4fdec55320acf3\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, as a matter of technical fact, the Minister stood and sought a call to answer the question, but was forbidden under the conditions. So the member maybe hasn\u2019t been here long enough to learn all the rules, but the way he\u2019s characterising it is untrue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022550f20d5ec0f4913af1d667e52f70e8b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that point of order, Mr Speaker, I\u2019m very familiar with the rules, and if the member had removed her badge and prioritised her ministerial responsibilities over wearing her ACT Party promotions, then she would have been able to answer that question. She chose to refuse to answer the question. That is a matter of ministerial conduct, and it is absolutely appropriate that the Prime Minister be questioned on that and asked to explain it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ac3ed3ba66418395819680ff2dc9e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, and, unfortunately, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s the responsibility of the Prime Minister, that circumstance; that circumstance was entirely my responsibility. Does the member have another question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c480c5f80b64532a43af19b3f6c23a4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. To be clear, I am not questioning the ruling that you made; you are absolutely within your rights, as Speaker, to do so. The Minister\u2019s choice to not comply with your ruling and instead refuse to answer questions is absolutely a matter of ministerial conduct for which the Prime Minister is answerable\u2014not you, as Speaker; the Prime Minister is answerable for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dfed0f06f5d42e3a898a3f05dfa97c9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, and I\u2019m not going to let the question go any further, because this has been a matter that has been settled, and I expect that the current compliance of the rules of the House will continue. Without losing a question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245662a7ed3f64c7cb04deb841e0bb534\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. You\u2019ll note that the Opposition fully endorsed the position that you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240d48424f3344964a3db1a37a7ca513f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289ade75e7f28407cac067e8c9d923a33\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014took last week. However, there are not two standards for Ministers in this House. Ministers come under significant pressure\u2014and the Minister was under significant pressure last week\u2014and we respected the ruling that you made as the Speaker. That does not ever excuse Ministers of the Crown from being held to the same standard as every other Minister of the Crown. Every Minister of the Crown reports to the Prime Minister; their conduct is a matter for the Prime Minister to answer for. The question that I asked is completely within order. It does not in any way question the ruling that you made as the Speaker; it questions why a Minister in his Government prioritised promoting her political party over discharging her duties as a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222eef76a12c84c089dfae8d8a42ecbd0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ask the question one more time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd0145f1c0144c25b30895c9028330ef\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaa276fd592b499bbc51bab9341e370c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95c55ed8e9f4d95b0723ea625d9f9e5\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7e6c1095a59404a99d48a703a6f687b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019ve called him, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b7c80d80bf945fca8aad65771ebccb4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did his Minister for Children\u2019s refusal to answer questions in the House last week, in preference to wearing an ACT Party badge, reflect the standard of behaviour that he expects of his Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b684d72864834ff9bc1e7f7a3da4ad0f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Speaker has addressed that question, I think, very well. There were challenges last week, he has reset the tone of this House, and we deal with that going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221775832ab68a431d845af70f10b4ea84\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Prime Minister, what in the view of this Government are the priorities of the New Zealand people\u2014what do they need from the Government and the Parliament right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226df7c9fd656049f98aff9e5608afca15\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I thank the member for that question. What they want is a Government that\u2019s going to rebuild the economy, restore law and order, and deliver better health and education. Those are the big issues that, outside of this place, New Zealanders are concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1361051660443a9a8fa482d2f7e3779\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If that\u2019s the case, why are his Ministers prioritising wearing party badges over answering questions, making racial taunts against members on the other side of the House, providing a commentary on the gender of international athletes, and refusing to use\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf54613b0e414c9ea0520561b9b00726\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute\u2014just a minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caffe5561b354daf950f208ff0f21bcd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014te reo M\u0101ori in their correspondence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228968f64a418f411697c5ecc9f4007ed1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. There was considerable talk coming from the Government side of the House while that question was being asked. The Rt Hon Chris Hipkins will ask it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ace936a192146cb9f6c6eaa2069315d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If that is indeed the priorities of this Government, why are his Ministers refusing to answer questions in the House, and prioritising wearing party badges instead; making racial taunts to members on the opposite side of the House; refusing to use te reo M\u0101ori in their correspondence promoting things like Matariki; providing a commentary on the gender of international athletes; and, of course, attacking the courts\u2014which is something we haven\u2019t got to yet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ee366fa4444505996aec55cdc79085\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I observe is I see a hard-working Cabinet and a set of Ministers that are actually doing the business for New Zealand. I look at our economic Ministers who are actually reducing inflation, lowering the cost of living, and making sure we\u2019ve got a growth plan, going forward. I look at our law and order Ministers and I see them focused on lowering crime. I look at our education Minister, who did more in six hours and six days than that member did as education Minister for six years. I look at what our health Minister is doing to make sure that we improve our health outcomes for M\u0101ori, non-M\u0101ori, and all New Zealanders. That\u2019s what I see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002262bf2b4bf09a4b898350b14b37f8424c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00224137837a671d465e9da12d48388790e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224137837a671d465e9da12d48388790e5\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What approach is the Government taking to managing spending and reprioritisation in Budget 2025? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8a189d36ad54559870105349747f9c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8a189d36ad54559870105349747f9c0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s fiscal approach to Budget 2025 has three elements: first, there will be a very high bar for new initiatives in the Budget, and these will be limited to the most important Government priorities; second, significant savings will need to be found beyond those already identified in this year\u2019s Budget; and, third, with a small number of exceptions, Government departments should expect to receive no additional funding in the Budget. They must manage cost pressures within their baseline, and if they want to do new things, they will need to reprioritise from\u00A0existing activities. This Government is serious about responsible management of public finances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202bb8ab9665d4d328eaba76755b34414\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: How will she ensure departments are delivering within their baselines? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223266785c65814035aac7053a7590483e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has introduced a new tool called \u201Cperformance plans\u201D, which departments must now prepare. Departments must set out how they are planning to deliver within set baselines over the medium term. That will almost certainly involve trade-offs. Performance plans must be clear about those trade-offs so Ministers can make the necessary decisions. Performance plans will also set out any risks to financial sustainability, department performance, or delivery, and explain how those risks will be managed. Performance plans are an important part of our Government\u2019s approach to Budget 2025 and to future Budgets, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237712e90a064409099a009d673f4f2fb\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What sort of information will performance plans contain? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f88ae2b391ce48e9aa043fcf8d6c3f4d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Among other things, a performance plan must provide information about a department\u2019s purpose and resources, its impact\u2014for example, how the department is currently delivering value\u2014and the drivers of its cost pressures and how these will be managed. This will help change people\u2019s focus to medium-term fiscal sustainability and away from the idea of an annual Budget lolly scramble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f91e6e477874882aa3f66cb457ed1da\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: Where are the requirements for performance plans set out? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd7dbeb3ed0b411aad21ac86d46fef1a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Last week, the Cabinet Office released a circular setting out in detail the requirements for developing and maintaining performance plans. This can be found on the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet website. Over the past six years, Government spending has been taken from $80 billion a year to $140 billion a year, and, in response, this Government is embedding a culture of responsible spending, restoring fiscal discipline, rightsizing the Government\u2019s footprint, and improving the efficiency and productivity of spending. Performance plans will help achieve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c257722039d4084bd6ef3d56a78cdce\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00229c7f3510b823427087caed479c61de92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c7f3510b823427087caed479c61de92\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002280128055dddb43c19600b252bbcf0f81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280128055dddb43c19600b252bbcf0f81\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially this Government\u2019s action to enable more energy investment and to fight climate change. We need more gas and more renewable energy if we want to fight climate change and grow our economy, and now our Government is taking action to achieve exactly that. We are ending the broken ban on offshore gas exploration, we are bringing in fast track to enable more investment in renewables, and we won\u2019t beat climate change by importing more coal from offshore while making it so hard to build a new wind farm or a solar farm. So I\u2019d say to that member, if she\u2019s sick of the bumper stickers and slogans and actually wants to fight climate change, get on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0da1cf8883a47459012c23b63408bab\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement \u201Cwe know that \u2026 the promise and the obligations of the Treaty were not upheld by the Crown.\u201D, and, if so, can he outline what those promises and obligations are by defining article 1 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022395e7a249020485b9f82c50e887ca732\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, in answer to the first part of the question, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3d372b4482c4562b1ec2d9cee1dacb3\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: How would the Prime Minister define article 2 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7ff6c83c271446c91c104eedc9cfa0b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m well aware of the articles; I don\u2019t think I need to define them for you here in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d30c398adf14a82bf19916379a852e6\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: How would the Prime Minister define article 3 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4da94246b4043a1ad0e3f3ec1a72142\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Equal citizenship for all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1e829116cc542859455644f065a7b37\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2014and we\u2019ll hear it in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc851b2d1f3e47c3bf188a501a1d05c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Before the Prime Minister hears the Green Party\u2019s version of the Treaty of Waitangi, will he take time out to see what the most famous M\u0101ori politician in this country, who got a law degree in record time between any European or M\u0101ori to get a law degree\u2014in two years flat\u2014thought about the Treaty of Waitangi when he wrote about it 102 years ago? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220260489cb8bb40129d8e0ca7d430bd74\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Apirana Ngata? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022440a3e0aff61406e99ed541e0835a49d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca72caa72c7d43f48180211e2e63fafc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister want to answer that question? That was a question, I think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ddd800d59c545449d214618bb3f4363\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh sorry, that was a question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c773915567b479cbdfbf5d66896b698\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220f17ccf226f4fbfa829e8dcdd048a4c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I often have the history of Apirana Ngata\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caa572ba539a4763b9373c21ac65cdaf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on\u2014just a minute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b9b640f53f041f0bea5e3eed510e186\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014quoted to me by the right honourable member. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236dd810820d045478740cca34442d484\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait a minute. OK, I think we\u2019re right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caeed2165b064a52b88ba0e5d2ec48b0\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister tell the House what He Whakaputanga is and does?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1f357506daa417f8a8602fdccc88702\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the member may want to get into this conversation\u2014I\u2019d just say to her that on this side, in our Government, what we\u2019re focused on is improving outcomes for M\u0101ori. I think it\u2019s incredibly sad that only 12 percent of our M\u0101ori students are actually at where they need to be at maths at year 8, and that\u2019s the thing that we should be talking about in this House and that I haven\u2019t heard from the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976dad63cd684539bdecdac4bff85604\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Should New Zealanders watching be concerned that their Prime Minister is demonstrating a clear lack of understanding about the founding documents of this nation\u2019s constitution while progressing legislation at an unprecedented pace to undermine it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c954dbf3d094a6d9de9f307722958e1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the Prime Minister, can I just point out that the member\u2019s question asked, \u201CDoes he stand by his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u201D Now, the questions have to relate to statements and actions. You might want to just think about rewording that last question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccb8dc40223e4aaba5fb9f87e0d1a4c9\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Should New Zealanders watching be concerned that their Prime Minister is demonstrating such a clear lack of understanding about this nation\u2019s founding documents while progressing legislation\u2014i.e., this Government\u2019s actions\u2014at pace to undermine that very constitution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cda4492cd7c44e67a594bd332177129e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What New Zealanders watching will actually see is a Government that is focused on the things that they care about. They want us to fix the\u00A0cost of living, they want us to restore law and order, and they want us to deliver better\u00A0health and education, and if they\u2019re watching, that\u2019s what they\u2019ll be seeing through this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ee98044c1d9433a97885c44f9ab96c3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002298778fad7779481fbe923bc4fdea6a71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298778fad7779481fbe923bc4fdea6a71\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Kia orana katoatoa, Mr Speaker. Does she stand by her statement, \u201COur Budget was very deliberate in the funding of core priorities because our priorities are the same priorities as New Zealanders\u201D; if so, is she concerned that her priorities are disconnected from everyday New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb3e1e153598495bad3979fae2e85e1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb3e1e153598495bad3979fae2e85e1d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E This is exactly the same primary question as the member asked yesterday, so you won\u2019t be surprised that the answer is also exactly the same. In answer to the first part of the question, yes; in answer to the second part of the question, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022781c1682069c4b67b55d3a66462776fc\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a priority to support Kiwis into work when unemployment is up to 4.6 percent and her only solution is to sanction beneficiaries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb0e5360be3943dab09e9bb9f3a32030\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is a priority to support New Zealanders into work, and today\u2019s unemployment statistic is yet another reminder of how letting inflation get a grip on the economy was so damaging. That is the legacy that we have inherited, and this Government is not only rebuilding our economy; we are also taking sensible, prudent steps to ensure that New Zealanders in receipt of a benefit are properly incentivised to find work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f86224ccdfdc4dee8ad66a6d1ade7cdd\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How can the 21,000 additional people on the benefit find jobs when the employment rate is unchanged and job ads have slumped by 32 percent, leaving Kiwis no other choice than to look overseas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b303c39d1d97440d80e4abd2ab1c388d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: On this side of the House, we want to rebuild this economy so that we can see businesses creating more jobs so New Zealanders have better options. The sad fact of the matter is this: we inherited a grossly damaged economy which had sustained out-of-control inflation for three years, causing interest rates to rise very, very high. That previous Government perpetuated that with its own wasteful spending, and now we are cleaning up the mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022326f1ad66b7b4775ac1b7a245edd3adf\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is it her priority to support front-line social workers who have lost their jobs because of funding cuts to services and programmes like T\u0101kai that have had to shut after 20 years of serving the community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022696c66b96db94e68a1ec03b8078147d7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member has a specific question, specific to contracts provided by a particular agency, I suggest she put those questions to the relevant Minister, and I know that if the Minister for social development were to be answering this question, she would say that she expects her agency to provide sufficient supports to all New Zealanders in receipt of a benefit to ensure they have the maximum opportunity to find work and get work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f91395479124aa082f8163acbba0ea6\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to nursing students like Ana, who have asked, \u201CWhat is the point of me completing this degree when I\u2019m so uncertain whether I will get a job?\u201D, and can she assure Ana that she will have a job in the public healthcare system when she graduates this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a32ace1b594b08994e97eb4f9aed16\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: My message to Ana is this: thank you for taking on the incredibly important job of nursing New Zealanders. Taking the chance to learn those skills and learn that capability is a great one because your skills will be needed in the future for New Zealand, and my encouragement to you is not only work hard and make sure you complete that qualification but also be wary of those politicians who like to claim they\u2019re on your side and then ruin the economy so that, actually, there are fewer opportunities in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002210212cc396d54783a755b62150def363\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00228a4bf714c8054185b8d5454386585455\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a4bf714c8054185b8d5454386585455\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What evidence has she seen to support her recent announcement on Make it Count, an action plan to transform maths education in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022521c4da4e3694609bf984d4b0f26bac0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022521c4da4e3694609bf984d4b0f26bac0\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E As we heard in the House yesterday, the Curriculum Insights and Progress Study showed that only 22 percent of learners at year 8 were at curriculum for mathematics. We took immediate action to accelerate our Make it Count action plan to introduce structured mathematics. A structured maths approach is underpinned by the science of learning and decades of cognitive research which show that explicit teaching, when supported by a knowledge-rich, year-by-year curriculum that develops mastery, supported by high-quality instructional resources, lifts student achievement. This action plan is just another step towards closing the equity gap, giving our children every opportunity to succeed in turning round these dismal results. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228734981e4a374f61b7a01bbfba3f44a3\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What other evidence has she seen to support this announcement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252230e25b8cb425a865210a1d0d53ae3\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Research from the National Centre for Excellence in the Teaching of Mathematics in the UK highlights the importance of enabling a coherent learning progression though the curriculum. That is why our Government is rolling out a knowledge-rich, year-by-year curriculum grounded in the science of learning, and bringing it forward by a year. The Education Review Office surveyed new primary teachers in 2023, finding that nearly a quarter felt unprepared in their maths content knowledge when they first started in their role. That\u2019s why, as part of this action plan, we\u2019re prioritising maths when it comes to professional learning and development, with $20 million of funding being made available, alongside raising the level of maths for entry into initial teacher education to level 2 NCEA mathematics and working with the Teaching Council to boost the amount of mathematics training happening at initial teacher education. Teachers deserve our support and we\u2019re going to deliver it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022368c79aa19954f4c998be89f909013eb\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she received from principals on her announcement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257a0af1e28d74e21aa10806f7d3a2198\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I have received really positive feedback. One principal wrote to me saying, \u201CThank you, I am excited at the idea of a structured maths programme. After 13 years of principalship and several years with primary teachers, this is fabulous news. Thank you. I am excited as a principal and look forward to supporting and embedding the structured maths programme at our school.\u201D, and another wrote: \u201CExcellent news, Erica, and well done. We have been aware of this decline for years, so it\u2019s great we\u2019re putting in place clear expectations for achievement and resources to support, as well as addressing standards for teacher entry.\u201D I am hugely grateful to all of those who have shared their thoughts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022339616f548dd4f668d70f6299031eb1b\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she received from teachers on her announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022410493776c5a40e8a550febf78faf81e\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Teachers have written to me as well, and one said, \u201CAs a teacher, I say thank you to Erica Stanford and the New Zealand National Party for caring and acting in the best interests of students, teachers, and society. These changes are needed.\u201D Another wrote, \u201CAs a secondary school maths teacher, this is the best news. Thank you, you are addressing that which should have been addressed.\u201D My message to parents is clear: we are a Government who is putting achievement back at the heart of the education system, and, as the Prime Minister said, we are moving heaven and earth to make sure your children experience success in mathematics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002241a576bbb29e438291662e9080803d08\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca49a3730f30424385f7d79a61101f97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca49a3730f30424385f7d79a61101f97\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022d48d7820d2e54983b30ec737eff7432a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d48d7820d2e54983b30ec737eff7432a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our action to lift maths achievement among young people\u2014M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. It\u2019s absolutely appalling that just 12 percent of M\u0101ori heading off to high school are at curriculum for\u00A0mathematics, and if we\u2019re serious about achievement and opportunity, then we actually have to turn that around. So we have a plan and that means more resources for\u00A0every child\u2014M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori\u2014in every classroom in New Zealand, and since we\u2019ve released that plan, I have to say to that member we haven\u2019t heard anything from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori on student achievement\u2014no, nothing to say about M\u0101ori achievement, nothing to say about our plan, and nothing to say about turning the lives around of our young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022751cd89f3aa34d3e8a40dc75eb5ef305\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s politically interesting, but not particularly helpful for the order of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bed46563cb4479b8c5f3592c5cd4349\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: In light of comments made by John Key at the National Party conference that \u201CM\u0101ori are the indigenous population of New Zealand and Treaty partners, so you have to treat them with respect.\u201D, does he believe that his Government is treating M\u0101ori with respect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc4e04a756e9401ea05f478f2359442d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: John Key is a private citizen and a former Prime Minister and he\u2019s entitled to his own views, but in this case I agree with him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a3dd48b73264de5b27eb06eab1df549\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What actions will he take to uphold New Zealand\u2019s legal obligations as ruled by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to hold Israel accountable for their illegal occupation of Palestinian lands and their war crimes against Palestinian people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed561ab863fb4e3692a00a5f4c014c8e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as that member will well know, we have said for many years that those occupations are illegal. The ICJ has actually confirmed New Zealand\u2019s longstanding position, so we support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ace7d595ad46c0bee987f19bcf518c\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: Is his Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage\u2019s erasure of te reo M\u0101ori greetings from official Matariki invitations an example of his Government\u2019s treating M\u0101ori with respect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbba07e0393e4d70841d4a4f51defe62\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said before, we value te reo. We should be comfortable in this country speaking te reo and English. In this case, he was addressing a letter to a foreign Minister and felt it was best delivered in English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cad32bf3045c42dd99e211d78758191e\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: If te reo M\u0101ori is good enough for King Charles to use in his official Matariki greetings, why is it not good enough for the New Zealand Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bed3f04ad1343beade8231426d7e862\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I\u2019d just say the Minister made a decision to say that he wanted the communication to be in English so that the Australian Minister could understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d93e243280b42339738fea1e29da821\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Arts, Culture and Heritage\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0318f1aa3804369aa662f25f0aab5da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0318f1aa3804369aa662f25f0aab5da\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage: Does the Minister think it\u2019s appropriate that te reo M\u0101ori be used in an invitation for Matariki, a distinct holiday to celebrate the M\u0101ori New Year; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00220007fe0ea5064ce9a24860d1bc962869\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220007fe0ea5064ce9a24860d1bc962869\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, which is why the official invitation to Matariki contained te reo M\u0101ori\u2014as I have here\u2014entitled \u201CM\u0101nawa maiea te M\u0101tahi o te Tau\u201D [\u201CArise the New Year\u201D], and he would know this if he\u2019d checked with his leader, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins, who received one of the invitations and declined to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022210ead51cf9344138c1a4b6b7f0a180c\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d90d043a5fa241b5a1256c49a0823834\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for the quiet. OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5550897d95946a4a7f552b046c886f7\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister knows what I\u2019m referring to is his letter to his counterpart yesterday, and I want to ask the question: what is the big problem with saying \u201Ct\u0113n\u0101 koe\u201D, which means \u201Chello\u201D, in his official invitation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022418ee36c926b42c489b60a9941a2740c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I was writing to a Minister from Australia and I was encouraged to sign it off with \u201CN\u0101ku noa, n\u0101\u201D [\u201CHumbly yours, from\u201D], and I thought \u201CYours sincerely\u201D would be more easily understood by the Australian.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff3d80e403ad447e9fc435ce708c6e87\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of a recent statement from the Hon Tony Burke, his Australian counterpart and the person the invitation was for, stating that support for First Nations\u2019 culture, stories, and languages is crucial, and, if so, why did he jump to the conclusion yesterday, saying, \u201CI didn\u2019t think he needed a lot of \u2026 reo in his invitation, because he\u2019s an Australian.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273c6b4409914436f944c5e73173512d8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I wasn\u2019t aware of that quote, and I must say I\u2019m amazed that that member thinks that this is a matter that deserves an urgent debate in the House and that my writing to an Australian Minister is a matter of such interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb645368d1b4677b8c00bf4e0d8697e\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. He hasn\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294d88a77a51e47c79dc4d629c268139c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the Hon Willie Jackson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f03c653d6b0742d89633522e4f0dc445\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014even come anywhere near\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229839e1443a134c0a8d3727bf3696c188\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, hang on\u2014wait, wait. Just let me call you, then, so the whole\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0950ef35caa48e3af4c10c9b847d056\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222891ab5aa21b49d9a74d11dd7d58951c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014House can hear you. The Hon Willie Jackson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f33cb82500047f68365006e3584f289\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Minister hasn\u2019t come anywhere near to addressing the question. I\u2019m asking the Minister: is he aware of the Hon Tony Burke\u2019s support for indigenous languages and the statements he\u2019s made around supporting First Nations\u2019 culture and languages, and he\u2019s made it very clear that that\u2019s crucial. He hasn\u2019t addressed the question at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224fbeb19d1124896a7eb77492c4faeeb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he did start his answer with \u201CNo, I wasn\u2019t aware of that statement.\u201D, which kind of covers it. But before you took the point of order, I was going to suggest to the Minister that he didn\u2019t use decisions made by the Chair in answer to his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022415bd8f3fecd46129ffbb527d6d108b3\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, point of order. Can I table a press release from the Minister, and it\u2019s a release that talks about putting words into action\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da13a86bce444aa9a63cb79f793abcd6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, hang on a moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bdb9f964f4e44dda43bdb087ef9b368\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to safeguard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3732177d7b440d2b4184d90a1ead067\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Wait on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a7206bc95f94c06be1b065deac0749b\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014indigenous languages. Can I seek leave to table it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d192e8928fb4c48a504e1e72157937c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Whose press release is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229692555e1c484976863a1aa3b3e724b5\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Tony Burke, the Australian Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea63c3a1ff5048a1842b987a863caaf2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But it\u2019s pretty freely available, though, isn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c8b9e12f5c4601961820a3c33c1715\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s available, but it hasn\u2019t been very available in New Zealand. But I seek leave to submit it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d3f9c23f8134bb882ef2613fa2e2f94\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member now a distributor for an Australian newspaper, or is it genuinely something that most members of the House would not have access to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f5e1930a04f479ba826b7488ff0800f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It wouldn\u2019t have been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e76ea70e58d488dbf1a0af52cfff9cc\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it hasn\u2019t really been available freely, but I\u2019m\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a8503246b284361a6901d30af2d4f5e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll put the leave. Leave is sought. Is there any objection? No. The member can table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2b73040f1c94bada8bea558c4d2ccdb\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66f38f660cf466a8c6714f183052ea2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ca01ea9a09f40f6a7294b8453c5c3fc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014oh, hang on. He\u2019s still on a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b8667eaec74cfbac8610be9c898626\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think he\u2019d finished, didn\u2019t he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f523ac37f4ba47b39fc586d3a1836ce4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I decide whether he is or not. He is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022012ce57d6f0448f78b9267519168a83e\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got another question, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285d7dd9fe32d481e8b107576ad524b3f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. In that case, point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213202f267b794e8ba4877c6bf74b9a1d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to table the official invitation to Matariki, which was sent to the Leader of the Opposition and was declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf502cae0da74d39b969b8e03d1ef2ba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I presume that\u2019s not widely available, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283dbadc222374e1db95faa338d83edd7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It was only sent to the people who were invited, and so I\u2019m tabling it for the general public so that they can see it\u2019s in both languages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf2ba8df40ee4c58938f74dc3294d467\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd6342561a144e3fb302b3fe574fe05f\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister now do the consistent thing and advise the King of England and the King of New Zealand, His Majesty King Charles, to remove te reo M\u0101ori greetings from his Matariki message; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d5effe8ae4742d5972d2f72eca28e69\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I wouldn\u2019t be making any such instructions to the King of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eeb67d9f1e9486a9eaa06f06a2d48a8\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: Talofa lava. Does the Minister consider that the recent Budget announcements regarding nearly $50 million\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b49cbf50dd4f4ff9b2401e97092b1507\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute\u2014just a moment. [Interruption] Just a moment. We\u2019ll hear the question in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022751a778cce904bbe9975298d79b394b1\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: Ng\u0101 mihi, Mr Speaker. Does the Minister consider that the recent Budget announcements regarding nearly $50 million of ongoing support for Te Matatini and $142 million of support for M\u0101ori language entities represent and demonstrate a strong level of support by this Government for te reo M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bfeaf56f21041969478c6239a54cf2a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2014and without commentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf8a0b40a99a4814bb6af1d51feebeed\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241326ee15ee548c69a07f3f38da41295\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister be advising the Minister for Sport and Recreation to write to the New Zealand Olympic team and to our Olympic medallist Eliza McCartney to stop referring to New Zealand as Aotearoa, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224101bddc1e3043d5bc786216a3fe3baf\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that Minister can handle his arrangements perfectly well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e80f2eef9b9e4677b915603ecb18c5e9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1dbfbfd25ab4a2ab5d6e2a54ad57cf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1dbfbfd25ab4a2ab5d6e2a54ad57cf6\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What actions is the Government taking to reduce harm caused by gangs and make communities safer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d30401a729204d45b4bee3ae6fbb184f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d30401a729204d45b4bee3ae6fbb184f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is taking action to reduce harm caused by gangs by progressing legislation that will reduce the ability of gangs to operate and cause fear, intimidation, and disruption to the public. The Gangs Legislation Amendment Bill, which inched closer to its third reading last night, is a significant step in making our communities safer. Gangs peddle misery and cause fear and intimidation, and this Government is taking the safety of the public seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abb776e969ef40f8aad31d17187c352e\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What examples, if any, has he heard of the fear, intimidation, and disruption that gangs cause in our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3503cc3184d4d09b4f9b88a28a6d679\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I heard an example from a member of Parliament from the Greens last night saying, \u201Cwe don\u2019t really wear red in Tokoroa, and that\u2019s just the way things are.\u201D, and the only reason why people wouldn\u2019t wear a particular colour in a particular place is because of fear of the consequences\u2014ultimately, fear of violence. No New Zealanders should live in fear, and that\u2019s why this Government is intending to ban the display of gang insignia and is passing this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b576da96775049358b14650766cd935a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, keep the answers to answers, and not reference to past debating points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250808580e4444ba480ec9d496f8fa078\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What other examples has the Minister heard of the fear, the intimidation, and disruption that gangs cause in our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f8a06876280434ca81624f43ec66882\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I heard another example from another member of Parliament, also from the Greens, last night. It said, \u201CI know, just like in Tokoroa, don\u2019t wear red. Don\u2019t wear red in Whang\u0101rei\u201D, and, like I said before, no New Zealanders should be living in fear. The Gangs Legislation Amendment Bill will provide extra tools for the police to deal effectively with gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f037dfc1be7a46dbbee7ab037229da3b\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government taking action against the fear, intimidation, and disruption that gangs cause in our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3de951ea6f447f1b7ec0ebc482a2d25\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because gang membership increased by 51 percent in the previous six years and, at the same time, violent crime in our communities had gone up by 33 percent. New Zealanders should be able to go about their normal lives without fear of being intimidated or preyed upon by organised crime. If that means banning the presence of gangs and gang patches in public, this Government is quite happy to justify that so people can expect to go about their lives in safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226fdd70b6d2154ffc8fdcfbe14b5e74a5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002292b6b85df788405d880817e0622b95e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292b6b85df788405d880817e0622b95e2\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is it correct that he was advised of Health New Zealand\u2019s plan to block early access to the cancer drug Keytruda on Friday, 2 August, and that he did not take action to address this issue until after it was made public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u002243e54a70de31443e88b4c12cca75ee2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243e54a70de31443e88b4c12cca75ee2d\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: To the first part, yes. To the second part, first thing on Monday morning, the Minister spoke with health officials regarding this issue. I\u2019m pleased to see that Health New Zealand has taken a pragmatic approach informed by clinical advice to deliver these treatments, thanks to the Government\u2019s transformative investment to deliver up to 26 cancer treatments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022135a7d77d0a64bcabf03db4cca472963\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Well, how much advice does he need in order to recognise that blocking early access to a life-saving cancer drug is a bad idea?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255f913aab2a04c8f9f2806016900635c\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, these decisions are clinical decisions made by Health New Zealand, and he has faith in Health New Zealand to come up with pragmatic solutions based upon clear clinical advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022585a2be7e9014bb2aaec38348cd39a26\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that Health New Zealand officials had the impression that the delay in implementation of the Government\u2019s flagship health policy was acceptable because he failed to set clear expectations on delivery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022423f854c28124c0ea3ac9001e7bfd59a\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82f3303c897476c9332ae07ac6ae225\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that documents released under the Official Information Act show he did not progress work on his original promise to fund cancer medicines to a Cabinet paper until public backlash against the Budget, and don\u2019t New Zealanders deserve a Minister that will fight for better healthcare for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e01e41f950ff40d0aa5551f4bb799972\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the second part of the question, they deserve a Minister that will fight for better health outcomes, and this Minister is fighting for better health outcomes by delivering a transformative investment in cancer treatments for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d3c64cba2944c9a9665131409b1efc1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm he is still the Minister of Health, or has the Prime Minister\u2019s office decided to try out some talented associates for the role?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a25da3ae4764a9695076236d57c527e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You need not answer that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d50d941556444d3b71fbbc45a13d01c\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on, let me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b30ebc75bcff471db5c7a6c54306fdc7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014OK, answer it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227e3757f13a34f1caa3d41329447ebe7\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: We have\u2014on behalf of the Minister\u2014a very competent associate health Minister who is actively supporting the Minister in his role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225985d48ba3e44eca80d3d3f6a13096b4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Internal Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022167eeeaddfbb457790d90a7d1f015408\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022167eeeaddfbb457790d90a7d1f015408\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: What recent announcements has she made about passports? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00228031cf9e66ab48a3b489b4e45ba0893b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228031cf9e66ab48a3b489b4e45ba0893b\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I was pleased to announce yesterday that wait times for New Zealand passports have halved, and New Zealanders should now allow up to five weeks for a standard New Zealand passport, down from a peak of 10 weeks. I\u2019ve been advised that many passports are being issued faster than this time frame as well. The recent delay in passport wait times was caused by a software upgrade in March. Since then, the department and I have been focused on reducing passport processing times as a top priority. Getting passport wait times down to the standard two weeks continues to be a priority for me. I want to provide Kiwi families and businesses with certainty on how long it will take to receive their passport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e1eb29b0aa47d683dca41cf34fd342\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just note that the Minister\u2019s microphone is not picking up as audibly as it should, so if there\u2019s someone in the box who can look at that\u2014and maybe she can just stand a little closer to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b21a4ad54fb14f08a3e15f7d650594bf\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits have New Zealanders received from the upgrade to the passport system? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278f695f47fd04fe0bc71297737096c73\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: The new system allows families applying as a group to use one online form, rather than multiple paper ones. Kiwi families are making good use of this feature, as 91 percent of passports last month were applied for online and 32 percent of these were group applications. The upgrade also makes it easier to report a lost or stolen passport, and allows referees to verify an applicant\u2019s identity online, rather than through a phone call. This is the largest upgrade to the passport system in over a decade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb2e5dcf618446ebb058f7b96d814508\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders ensure they get their passports in time for their overseas trips? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5723c43a4db44fcb1f5ae86b106c25e\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: The top action New Zealanders can take to ensure they get their passport on time is to apply as soon as they start planning an overseas trip and, secondly, it\u2019s to make sure that the photo they send through is of a good quality and meets the requirements. For context, 11,598 photos were rejected by the Passport Office in February alone this year, which delays the application process. There is an online photo checker available to use on the passport website, and, remember, selfies are not accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6cf78b3ef7c43d79e59ed299da1402f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022511fdb732e6a4ea7979494d93453b321\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022511fdb732e6a4ea7979494d93453b321\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does she stand by the Government\u2019s Budget description of the Oranga Tamariki Contracting Service Costs savings initiative that \u201CThis initiative improves the efficiency of service delivery, with no reduction in frontline services\u201D; if so, how is Oranga Tamariki ensuring no reduction in frontline service provision? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00228baafbcf29834cfa831aca4c47f35592\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228baafbcf29834cfa831aca4c47f35592\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, yes, and in answer to the second part of the question, that savings initiative is money Oranga Tamariki expects will be returned where a provider has been funded and services have not been delivered. Previously, organisations were allowed to sit on funding, even if they weren\u2019t using it. Now, where services and outcomes are not delivered, Oranga Tamariki will be asking for the money back. I think taxpayers would be alarmed to learn that this was not happening in the past. In terms of front-line service provision, what is happening is where contracts are being changed, it is because this Government is making sure that funding is delivering outcomes for children and young people and that taxpayers are getting value for money. Where organisations have not delivered on the full value of their contracts last year, Oranga Tamariki will be funding them this year based on that prior delivery. Going forward, we will be funding these organisations that are delivering outcomes for children, and not funding those who don\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d14c8c880dd248dfbf02cb95b85cf1cc\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How does she reconcile this commitment to no reduction in front-line services with Family Start losing 40 percent of their front-line staff due to their funding being cut by $14 million per year, compromising their ability to support at-risk infants in Nelson? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc745aa9cfc143f9b522c26f9e16bb2b\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to refer to a media release released this morning by Oranga Tamariki, speaking to specifically this provider. For example, He Matapuna Ora, the Family Start provider in Nelson, stated they are in the top four performing Family Start\u00A0providers in the country. Based on their own quarterly reports and our internal review of all\u00A0Family Start contracts between 2022 and January 2024, they achieved, on average, 80\u00A0percent of the wh\u0101nau volumes, lower numbers of home visits than were expected, and based on this information, we have reduced their fulltime-equivalents (FTEs) from 12.75\u00A0to 10. At one point, He Matapuna Ora reported in previous financial years that they had had 17 FTEs, despite being contracted for 12.75. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e2700a09a2c44a5b52a6d122e1da532\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cadbbf1d17cc40d391ba78a12cb7cdc7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just hold on\u2014hold on a minute. OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212378a05bad64e1b89775b7665f9a5ef\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Family Start Nelson manager Rebecca Ravenscroft, who said, \u201Cour wh\u0101nau workers are frontline workers, they are in the homes of these wh\u0101nau and whenever they visit they have to sight the baby so they are definitely frontline workers\u201D, and, if not, what is the Minister\u2019s definition of front-line services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f971509f020948e18e5c1b9e1862a5c0\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll refer to the previous answer where I stated that this organisation, in particular, only met 80 percent of the wh\u0101nau volumes and lower numbers of visits than were expected. So that money that was not delivered on will be redirected to a front-line service that can deliver that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcc7a59ad04046bca58674c61676f74c\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does cutting funding for Family Start Nelson meet her expectations for Oranga Tamariki\u2019s savings initiative, when evaluation found that their programme reduced overall post-neonatal mortality in the first year of life by 42 percent, and, if not, why is Family Start facing these cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9462bb040d4567944701562b272b04\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I think I\u2019ve actually answered part of that in my previous answers, but what I would say is it does meet my expectation if money cannot sit in these organisations\u2019 bank accounts that\u2019s not being spent when it could be redirected to organisations that could be delivering a service for our young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9cee19eb29747c2b7ae92e7c06be280\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Will she recommit, as the Government did in the Budget, to there being no reduction in front-line services because of the $120 million of cuts to Oranga Tamariki - contracted services, and, if so, how will Oranga Tamariki fill the gaps already created by these cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed9c136c135459da2dd18d28806f047\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Overall, the Government and Oranga Tamariki are not reducing front-line services. Savings coming from getting money back where it hasn\u2019t been used are redirected to other front-line services. Separate to this, what we are doing, unlike previously, is reviewing contracts and making sure we are getting what we pay for. Changes have been made based on previous utilisation and delivery, and where demands and needs have changed in particular regions, Oranga Tamariki has also looked at where there is duplication of services in the same areas. This means some providers will see a decrease in funding and others will see an increase. Funding does not equal delivery. As we saw under previous years, you can throw more and more money at a problem, but unless you demand results, things can get worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac06a433943b44c183e674c848a4b0c2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Tertiary Education and Skills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022fae2c68a275443de99c7007968a50cbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fae2c68a275443de99c7007968a50cbb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills: Meitaki, Mr Speaker. Kia orana koutou katoatoa. Does she stand by her statement that \u201Cthe previous government\u2019s Te P\u016Bkenga mega-merger has been nothing but an abject disaster\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022f95e5f0d82f24d03a8ceabfc2155ccdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f95e5f0d82f24d03a8ceabfc2155ccdf\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and to name a few reasons why, in 2023 all previous Institutes of Technology and Polytechnics of New Zealand (ITPs) individual business units recorded deficits, with at least three recording deficits in excess of $20 million and all but two previous ITP individual business units forecasting deficits in 2025. Further, international student numbers recovery for Te P\u016Bkenga is behind universities, is behind schools, and is behind language schools. Overseas, no one knows what Te P\u016Bkenga is. Further, Te P\u016Bkenga has overseen a 9 percent decline in domestic enrolments. Polytechnics are unable to make decisions about their domestic and international fees. ITPs have been unable to make decisions that meet regional needs of their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee85a5aee0f6437abb22360be1d0e1a5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, in the regulatory impact statement prepared by her own officials, does the Minister\u2019s preferred option rank as \u201Cworse\u201D than the status quo when it comes to system sustainability and to learner and employer needs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022123aa56454b14282a67eae4f22c226d6\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: There is a consultation document out at the moment for the sector to give their thoughts on. I have taken a range of advice and, as well, I have relied on the over 30 years that I\u2019ve spent in the sector, and so options are there for the sector to submit on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210be0879b33546e59e5b7fbca0c277ca\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why, in the regulatory impact statement prepared by her own officials, does the Minister\u2019s preferred option rank as \u201Cmuch worse\u201D than the status quo when it comes to implementation cost and complexity, and ranks her preferred option overall as \u201Cworse\u201D than the status quo?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255dd76ed14f84f53838706687133a71a\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is very focused on ensuring that all regions have access to vocational education and training. We understand that it is a pathway to employment for individuals such as school leavers and those returning to the workforce. It is absolutely critical that options that we look at ensure that regional delivery can occur. The proposal that is out for consultation enables the Open Polytechnic to support those smaller regional polytechnics to be able to maintain that level of provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7ad78c6548a4c37abc3dd3fff8dda80\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she ignoring the advice of her seven specialist advisers, who\u2014at a cost of $2,000 a day each\u2014told her to keep the Te P\u016Bkenga model with some regional groupings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c18ed6ecce54d0bb293894edb48d33f\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would note that they were not my specialist advisers. They were Te P\u016Bkenga\u2019s specialist advisers, and they gave a range of options, of which the option that we are consulting on was one. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d0b4a7278047dfb203a4faec1eaee9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it true\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9cd2f3d65b9459cb6621ab5678c4973\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait\u2014just wait for a minute till the House resumes a bit of silence for the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1bda3f455554477839a1c392ca5e9fe\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it true that the real, abject failure here is a Minister who is so set on protecting her own pet institution that she just doesn\u2019t give a damn about the needs of the rest of the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c5b3188f8634263a8b246b88ee7d508\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. You\u2019d think somebody with a modicum of education would not begin by \u201CIsn\u2019t it true\u201D, but then that soon was compounded by her outrageous sort of venting of her dislike for the Minister and not knowing her subject at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad0db213fac34709aff8ced583111f57\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d tend to agree with the member. There is one question more. You can have that question again if you can ask in a different way and as something that goes to the heart of the Minister\u2019s portfolio responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289a560f57d2a4fe9ba327fd85ffc2edc\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she tell Radio New Zealand\u2014RNZ\u2014that she had proactively released the advice she received from her seven specialist advisers when she has done no such thing, and when will she release the advice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222940d257f835418085b691c66e4425b3\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I noted that it would be proactively released. I wasn\u2019t sure if it had been or not, and I understand that it\u2019s due to be proactively released in the next week. I would note, again, that they were not my specialist advisers, but I would also note that under a new chief executive at Te P\u016Bkenga, who has experience in and understanding of the sector; a new chair; and a clear set of expectations from this Minister, Te P\u016Bkenga is at last undertaking the cost-out work and is forecasting a year-to-date surplus for the six months to 30 June 2024 of $28.5 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222950b5c99aaf4c828fd75422746a9e80\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, very good\u2014that brings oral questions to a close. We\u2019ll take 30 seconds while members swiftly leave the House without conversations on the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a59c38aea8c0445995d96332784269bb\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002279dc18b59e95415d803c6dc80d6473b3\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002284b2ff9e64a841c8bd788b0f8e6bedca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284b2ff9e64a841c8bd788b0f8e6bedca\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWhen the people of New Zealand elected this Government last year, we knew that we were facing significant challenges as a country. The Labour Government had spent up large, the cupboards were bare, education, law and order, health\u2014all were going back in the wrong direction. We were entrusted by Kiwis to get them back on track, and that is what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EPerhaps the most dire loss of confidence was within our energy sector. The previous Government wrecked confidence in energy with the oil and gas exploration ban, with a hare-brained and wildly expensive Lake Onslow scheme, which wasn\u2019t going to provide energy until 2038 at the earliest, costing at least $16 billion, and with their reckless 100 percent renewable electricity target by 2030. The result is that New Zealanders are now paying the highest electricity prices in the Western World. Just this morning, the spot price in Northland reached over $1,700 per megawatt hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAfter stifling investment in the gas sector, after increasing our sovereign risk as a country, and after six long years of Megan Woods thinking she knows best, New Zealand now finds itself in an energy crunch with dry year conditions being compounded by a low supply of gas, which is critically important at this time. The high electricity prices New Zealanders are facing are deeply concerning and a direct result of those policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThey are threatening the viability of New Zealand businesses, many of whom export products to the world, and the jobs they underpin. We\u2019ve seen that, in recent days, with the announcement of several hundred job losses at Winstone Pulp and at OJI\u2019s Penrose facility. High electricity prices have been cited on both occasions. This is ever-devastating for the individuals, the families, and the communities that rely upon these large employers, but this position we find ourselves in today has not happened by chance. It is a direct result of the poor policy decisions by the last Government and what we inherited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis morning, I met with the four largest gentailers in New Zealand to discuss the situation and the solutions needed. The message is incredibly clear: New Zealand needs more natural gas supply to secure our energy sector\u2019s confidence and our security as a country. But, as a result of the ban, our gas supplies are falling rapidly. Figures obtained from our gas producers released earlier this year show a 20 percent decrease in proven plus probable reserves from 1,635 petajoules to 1,300 petajoules. Instead of low-emission natural gas, electricity generators are having to turn on everything else they can. That includes coal-fired and diesel-powered plants, all while gas peakers\u2014approximately 500 megawatts of gas peakers currently available\u2014sit idle because we don\u2019t have the natural gas that this country is needing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis Government is taking action to respond to this through the Gas Security Response Group and the work the Gas Industry Company is leading on this issue. The Gas Industry Company is currently leading on two critically important work streams, which we reported to Cabinet on Monday. Firstly, the work stream on the feasibility of importing liquid natural gas, which is a lower-emissions fuel than coal, to improve gas supply in the short to medium term. I think this is a significant thing to have to be investigating as a country. This is a significant thing to be investigating as a country, because, as a country, we have been blessed with natural resources, but because of the last Government\u2019s reckless policies, we are being left in this situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWe must keep the lights on. We must support our industries. We must ensure New Zealand has the energy that we need, and so we\u2019re working on that. The group\u2019s also investigating how to increase investment in flexible, gas-based generation to ensure there is plant available to meet our future electricity needs for flexible generation. This Government is taking this issue incredibly seriously. We will not stand by while industry shuts down. We need to have the energy security this country needs. The reckless policies of the last Government have been thrown in the bin. What we need is a bipartisan approach where they give confidence to the sector so this investment can happen. I call on them to back this Government so we can have the energy security this country needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002291c3f57ea32a42319ad318ae22f3efdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291c3f57ea32a42319ad318ae22f3efdc\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Today, the Labour Party has called on the Government to use its Government procurement rules to ban Government agencies from purchasing goods and services from Israel\u2019s illegal settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and we are also asking the Government to communicate directly to the Government of Israel that it should act immediately on the ruling of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) and withdraw from the occupied territories now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWhy this; why now? Because the International Court of Justice, the United Nation\u2019s highest legal body has handed down an advisory opinion that is a sweeping and damning indictment of Israel\u2019s occupation of East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank, which it acquired by force in 1967 and has held ever since. It\u2019s worth a look at what the ICJ ruling actually says, and I want to quote directly: \u201CThe sustained abuse by Israel of its position as an occupying Power, through annexation and an assertion of permanent control over the Occupied Palestinian Territory and continued frustration of the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, violates fundamental principles of international law and renders Israel\u2019s presence in the Occupied \u2026 Territory unlawful.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe ICJ goes on to catalogue forced evictions, extensive house demolitions, restrictions on residents and movement, the transfer by Israel of 700,000 settlers into the illegal settlements, its failure to prevent or punish violent attacks by settlers on Palestinians, restricting the access of the Palestinian population to water. But here\u2019s the important thing for this House: the ICJ found that all States, including New Zealand, are under an obligation not to recognise as legal the situation arising from the unlawful presence of Israel in the occupied territories and not to render aid or assistance to that occupation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe ICJ ruling has changed the game. The world has watched in horror over the last eight months as Israel has killed nearly 40,000 civilians in Gaza, in spite of repeated calls by the United Nations General Assembly for a permanent ceasefire. Now the UN\u2019s highest court has issued a damning indictment of Israel\u2019s illegal occupation. Governments, like New Zealand, have a duty to act and this builds on a range of initiatives and policies that successive New Zealand Governments have held on this issue, and I want to reference when Murray McCully was the Foreign Minister of the National Government of the time, in 2016, New Zealand then held a non-permanent seat on the UN Security Council and co-sponsored a resolution that was passed in the Security Council that condemned Israel\u2019s illegal settlements and called on Governments\u2014with the force of international law\u2014to differentiate between Israel the State, and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. I note that some members, some Ministers in this Government disown that resolution now and publicly have differed with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI also want to point out that our Government, in recent days, has called on the Government of New Zealand to recognise Palestine, to give it diplomatic recognition, just as Ireland has done in recent days, just as Spain and Norway have done\u2014144 other countries in the United Nations have recognised Palestine, as a way of signalling the need for a negotiated political settlement in the region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to say that the ICJ ruling is not a suggestion; it\u2019s not a request. It is international law and this Government likes to talk a big game on the international rules - based order, but it has been strangely quiet on Israel\u2019s war crimes and its multiple breaches of international law going back decades. If this Government doesn\u2019t speak out on this question that the ICJ has ruled on, if it doesn\u2019t take the kind of practical actions that we are calling for today\u2014at least in the beginning, a ban on Government procurement of goods and services produced in the illegal settlements\u2014then this Government is inviting people to accuse it of being selective, inconsistent, and hypocritical and undermining New Zealand\u2019s standing in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002230f1923541ef41b1a8350214422da8bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230f1923541ef41b1a8350214422da8bc\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I say, finally we have a Government that is putting educational achievement back at the heart of our education system, because we are aspirational for our kids. In the face of the last six years of declining results, 42 percent of our kids at the National Monitoring Study of Student Achievement are not at Curriculum for mathematics; half of our kids are not able\u00A0to\u00A0pass a functional literacy and numeracy assessment at NCEA; three consecutive years of dropping NCEA results; Programme for International Student Assessment, Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, and Progress in International Reading Literacy Study results dropping like a stone. The question has to be\u2014with all of these warning lights flashing, with the dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree, with the console screaming at them \u201CPull up! Pull up!\u201D\u2014what did they do in six years in education? I\u2019d be\u00A0very surprised if anyone in this country can think of anything that this last Government did, let alone their priorities in the education agenda, in six long years of education and declining results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAs education Minister in this Government, we have a purpose and clarity and we are working at pace to raise achievement and to close the equity gap. Underpinning all of this is our goal of getting 80 percent of kids to curriculum by the time they reach high school, to give them a chance at getting a meaningful qualification and going on to live the life that they want. We\u2019ve outlined six clear priority areas: the Curriculum, the teaching practice, the fact that we need to assess our kids along the way, that we are investing in our workforce, that we\u2019re investing in learning support, and that we\u2019re using data and evidence to guide us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe saw in the last few weeks that our maths results of those young students who are measured at year 8 against the Curriculum benchmark\u2014only 22 percent of them were at curriculum for mathematics. This represents, as the Prime Minister said, a total system failure. High schools know it, because, as soon as I walk in the door, they tell me that they\u2019re having to catch their kids up, that they don\u2019t know their timetables and their basic facts. Parents know it, because after-school tuition is full, and maths and literacy and Kip McGrath and NumberWorks\u2019nWords are all full, which is exacerbating the equity gap that we have in this country that we are trying so desperately to close. Primary schools know it as well: they have been awaiting a structured maths programme following on the very successful structured literacy programme that we\u2019re rolling out next year to every single school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EA feature of our very quick turn-around with our maths approach is to introduce our knowledge-rich curriculum next year aligned with resources and teacher guides and workbooks and resources for kids in the classroom so that our teachers can successfully implement this new curriculum. We are ensuring that the teaching practice in the classroom is based on structured literacy and maths mastery\u2014explicit teaching, a sequenced manner and a structured manner of introducing material, mastery before moving on, and an understanding of concepts and an automatising or recalling of basic facts. We\u2019re making sure that we\u2019re assessing our kids twice a year so that we can pick them up before they fall,\u00A0and so that every parent in this country will know where their kids are at and how they are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe are investing in our wonderful workforce\u2014our amazing, passionate teachers. We\u2019re making sure they have all of the resources that they need to support this new curriculum. We\u2019re making sure that before they go into initial teacher education that they have the requisite level of maths to be confident in teaching it. We\u2019re making sure, through the Teaching Council, that initial teacher education providers are properly teaching teacher trainees the math that they need to be confident\u2014we\u2019re investing $20 million into professional learning and development to do this. We\u2019re also investing in learning support in class for those kids who are falling behind, with small-group interventions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that has high aspirations for our kids. We are not prepared to wait another single year to put these system changes in place\u2014we have to raise student achievement. My message to all parents is this is a Government who takes your children\u2019s success at school very, very seriously. It was really telling today in the House that the questions from the other side were around a letter that was written to an Australian Minister in English rather than using te reo, when 20 percent of our kids are at curriculum for mathematics, and 12 percent of our M\u0101ori kids, and yet nothing from the other side on these really important issues. It shows why in the last six years they achieved exactly nothing in education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022de95aa69bf764cff81d8aa5f7260597b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de95aa69bf764cff81d8aa5f7260597b\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I take this call on behalf of the Green Party to stand alongside tamariki across the country in the collective hope for a better future. I want to start my k\u014Drero by reminding the Prime Minister of his very words at the National Party conference in 2022: \u201CThe lives of all children, and the circumstances in which they raise their own families, will be shaped by the decisions political leaders are taking right now.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s look at the reality tamariki face growing up in New Zealand today: over 200,000 children live in households below the poverty line. That is one in every six children\u2014one in every five for tamariki M\u0101ori. The royal commission of inquiry into abuse in care concluded just last month that 200,000 kids had been abused by the State in care. On average, one child dies every five weeks in New Zealand from abuse. Of the 5,977 tamariki and rangatahi currently in the State care system, only 56 percent of these tamariki are enrolled with a primary health organisation. Of the annual year 9 to 13 enrolments, 15,000\u2014around 5 percent\u2014are regularly missing school, needing to work to provide for their families. This is not inevitable. Tamariki born into poverty is not inevitable. Tamariki having the connection to their whakapapa ripped away is not inevitable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EAgain, in the words of our Prime Minister, \u201Cfor every kid walking into school tomorrow morning, backpack on, ready to take on the world, my message is simple. I cannot change the choices you make, or the home you were born into, but I will move heaven and earth to give you the best possible start \u2026 [to] life\u201D. So let\u2019s look at \u201Cdecisions political leaders are taking right now.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThe Government indexed main benefits to inflation, which their own officials warned could place as many as 13,000 more children in poverty. Just last month, the Government diluted child poverty targets, showing the Government is comfortable putting a further 17,000 tamariki into material hardship. The Government plans to remove section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act, which will destroy connection of tamariki to their whakapapa. Last month, the Government launched boot camps just five days after the royal commission of inquiry released its findings on horrific abuse at State boot camps. The cutting of $120\u00A0million over four years to Oranga Tamariki contractors across the country\u2014and they were kept in the dark about specific decision-making rationale. The reintroduction of charter schools is designed to take away accountability and oversight. The decisions this Government makes every day reinforces the same system that enabled the ongoing abuse in care, where the Prime Minister said, \u201CYou are heard, you are believed\u201D, in this very House just 14 days ago. We know actions speak louder than words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThis attack on tamariki by the Government is targeted and deliberate. There is so much happening and it is designed this way so people switch off because it\u2019s too painful, it\u2019s too hard to bear witness to. This is an intentional strategy to collectively exhaust the public. Kiwis will remember this Government placing the profits of landlords over tamariki and will hold the Government to account for the \u201Cdecisions political leaders are taking right now.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ELet me be clear: this will not go uncontested or without a fight. We have seen the h\u012Bkoi activations across the motu, and right here on this Whare\u2019s doorstep, by Ng\u0101puhi on Monday, and this Saturday in Christchurch. We have seen almost 3,000 submissions to the Social Services and Community Committee on the removal of 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act. Today, in select committee hearings, M\u0101ori rangatahi from VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai, with care experience, said, \u201CWe have not been consulted with.\u201D We have heard from hundreds of Oranga Tamariki community providers whose funding is being cut. We live in a country of abundance. There is enough for everyone. We can and must ensure our tamariki have everything they need to thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5e621e8ef7b433ea21418b76a589692\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5e621e8ef7b433ea21418b76a589692\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. Last week, our co-leader Rawiri Waititi raised a phrase that we are \u201Cpunch drunk\u201D. It\u2019s a phrase used to describe our fatigue\u2014our fatigue from defending our culture, our fatigue from being unable to act normally, our fatigue from fighting for our rights and our identity, and our fatigue from feeling persecuted for being tangata whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EIt is truly believed that this Government has started one of the biggest attacks that we\u2019ve had as M\u0101ori since the 1860s, and, oh, for our people to have the luxury to curl up in a corner and cry. The amount of pain, fear, and harm that we are seeing from our wh\u0101nau is heartbreaking. But, no, as tangata whenua, we must brave up because we don\u2019t get to have the break, because we must stand strong and give our wh\u0101nau hope, despite the tsunami of constant assaults, and it\u2019s deliberate. It\u2019s deliberately done, based on a history which is taught to us to grind us down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori-focused solutions designed for generations are ending. The M\u0101ori Health Authority is demolished. M\u0101ori mokopuna in State detention with solutions like section 7AA\u2014gone. Auahi k\u0101ti programmes, demolishing M\u0101ori wards, fast-tracking seabed mining. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ERemoving section 7AA, for us, is violent. Confiscating our reo is violence. Taking away Te Tiriti and constitutional rights is violence. Continual oppression to us as M\u0101ori is violence. And now, we have the foreshore and seabed decrying, with front-page, paid advertisements saying \u201CKiwis, not iwis\u201D, because it\u2019s all about going backwards. Prisons, where we\u2019re having mega-prisons developed to prison their way to justice. Boot camps. Where is the aroha from this Government for its tangata whenua, whose solution to help with the British settlers who were unruly was to offer Te Tiriti? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWh\u0101nau m\u0101, I think it\u2019s really important that we are aware of what we\u2019re in. The deliberate fatigue of repealing, policy extractions, and policy demolishes before the big one comes, because the big one is coming, and who is the architect behind this? How is this Government letting a small party like ACT be the tail that wags the dog? How has ACT groomed the Prime Minister and, indeed, National into deliberately exercising ethnocide? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ELet me explain what ethnocide is. It is the deliberate, systemic destruction of our culture and us as tangata whenua by using legislative power and political force and influence to make us into one\u2014their one, and our none. We\u2019ll all be one New Zealanders, one people\u2014where have we heard that before? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThis Government has lost control. It is very clear, wh\u0101nau m\u0101, that National is being run by ACT, and they\u2019re allowing them to destroy our culture, one repeal, one piece of legislation, one punch, at a time\u2014very hard and very low, and it\u2019s deeply, deeply dark. This Government is being led by a dark triad, and let me explain what that means. Three personality traits: the Machiavellian, the psychopath, and the narcissist, and I\u2019ll get you to guess which one is which. They\u2019re manipulative, extremely entitled, and they lack empathy, but together, those traits are dangerous for our people because, together, they create some of the cruellest social chaos ever known to indigenous people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ENg\u0101puhi this week told the Government to stand down. Our k\u014Drero to you, wh\u0101nau, is to stand up, but be clear: do not get caught in the politics of distraction, because we must stay focused on our own. It\u2019s going to take a revolution of minds to withstand what\u2019s coming. Conserve yourselves and, together, stay focused on exactly what it is that we\u2019re fighting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EOur Te Tiriti is under threat. Time is important. Intention is important. Strategy is important. Energy is important. Stay well and look after each other, because, as we\u2019ve said, the next karanga will be big. That is why we\u2019re calling on the necessity for our own P\u0101remata, because, wh\u0101nau m\u0101, this is not the way for our mokopuna to be living in Aotearoa. Te ng\u0101kau o te iwi wh\u0101nau [The heart of the people, family], that\u2019s one of our solutions, and we must continue to push forward on what was truly intended by Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Kia ora r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u002283d062b110514285af30727e2a4d89bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283d062b110514285af30727e2a4d89bf\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Speaker, I seek your guidance on what you would consider to be personal attacks. There were not names given in that speech, and I didn\u2019t want to disrespect the member by interrupting her during her speech. However, there were comments made about the individual characteristics of three members who lead a Government, without their names specifically being mentioned\u2014quite nasty characteristics\u2014and I seek your judgment on whether those would be considered personal attacks under the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0a88539bcb64c80a49dc9ed07f6de48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0a88539bcb64c80a49dc9ed07f6de48\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I listened very intently to the speech that\u2019s just been given, and I think you raise something that is contestable. It\u2019s my intention to have a look at it beyond this particular forum, in light of what I had to say to the House yesterday. I would make the point that if we go too far down this track, then everybody\u2019s ability to speak freely will start to become curtailed, so it can\u2019t be something that I\u2019m going to leap to very quickly. I know that that will see a pile of people sending me all sorts of instructive emails, but I think that it\u2019s the right thing to do for the sake of the Parliament and for that ability for all members to speak freely and from the passionate positions that everyone in this House comes from. But I take the member\u2019s point and will, obviously, consider that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3e8cd7ae4454c84bd073f9e419ba97f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3e8cd7ae4454c84bd073f9e419ba97f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for Women):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is my first opportunity to address the House since returning from maternity leave. I\u2019d like to extend my profound thanks to yourself and also to members across the House for the very kind wishes and goodwill and support shown towards me in the seven months since I\u2019ve had my baby. It is indeed a delight to be back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EIn the context of getting some sleep, nothing sharpens the mind like having a baby. Nothing makes one more aware and more cognisant of the country and the future of the country and, indeed, the Government of the day and the decisions that it\u2019s making to progress the future of the country, like having a child and suddenly being deeply invested in the future of that child. So it is as the Minister for Women and as a new mum that I would like to submit my comments to the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI have to say, on my maternity leave, I had time\u2014at times\u2014to reflect on the direction of travel of the country and how women are treated. I have to say that I am profoundly pleased to be a new mum under this Government, not the previous. Under the previous Government, it became profoundly clear that politics were an order of the day, not the best interests of the women and girls of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI think back to the previous Labour Government voting down Nicola Willis\u2019 member\u2019s bill that would have allowed parents to share their leave. I\u2019m very pleased that we have now taken that bill on as a Government priority and it will be progressed in time. It will allow mums and dads in this modern society\u2014or mums and mums, and dads and dads\u2014to be able to share their leave as they see fit and to make autonomous decisions over how they structure their family and their working lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re here to make a positive difference to mums and dads and families. We have seen a catastrophic mismanagement of the health system under the previous Government. It is so wonderful to have Dr Shane Reti at the helm. Having just given birth and experienced the maternity services in this country, I am so pleased that he is now in charge of reforming the reforms that did nothing but degrade and run down the hospital system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAgain, this side of the House believes that parents know best. They know how to give their children the best start to life. I am so pleased, again, that National is going to take forward its three-day stay policy. It will mean that mums and babies will be entitled by law to 72 hours post-partum care. Staff will give them an alert to that, by law. They will be told of that entitlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAs these little babies grow up and become small children and toddlers, we are also going to help our mums along by enabling them back into the workplace, should they choose. It\u2019s all about giving parents choice, particularly our mums who are so overly represented in poorer outcomes for employment, and so on and so forth. We have been delighted to announce our FamilyBoost policy in this year\u2019s Budget, which enables parents who qualify up to $150 a fortnight to go towards childcare, to get our mums back into the workforce, if they so choose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EOn the topic of tax relief, women across the country can now keep more of what they earn. We are not the long hand of Government, reaching into their bank account and degrading their take-home pay with massively high levels of inflation that this country has seen for too long. Our Minister of Finance is getting the books back in order. We are driving down inflation. We are driving down interest rates. We are letting parents keep more of what they earn in order to enable lovely futures for their children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EOn the topic of healthcare, again, thank goodness Dr Shane\u2019s at the helm. We have announced the extension of breast-screening services to 70- to 74-year-olds. We\u2019re in the business of saving lives. We\u2019re in the business of boosting Pharmac to $6.3 billion over the next four years\u2014that is the largest budget that Pharmac has ever seen. We are investing in healthcare for the future of the women of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EIn my last 30 seconds, I just wanted to very quickly touch on the pay gap. Under the last Government, it sat on or around 9 percent for six long years. We are the Government taking action. We are the Government working with business to design a pay gap calculation tool so that we can start to shine a light on the pay gap of New Zealanders\u2014sunlight, as they say, is the best disinfect. It is the only way to drive it down and we are taking action to do that. Women are too smart to fall for lip-service. They were not interested in the press releases and proclamations of the Labour Government. The National Government\u2014the coalition Government, with our friends in New Zealand First and the ACT Party, are driving changes to make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00223defe19a3dba4249bcb8575fc046ab30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223defe19a3dba4249bcb8575fc046ab30\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Welcome back to my colleague the Hon Nicola Grigg. I say \u201CT\u0113n\u0101 koe\u201D deliberately today because te reo M\u0101ori is an official language of this country, Aotearoa New Zealand, and I do not accept this Government\u2019s continued whakaiti of our Treaty partner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EAucklanders are not getting what they voted for. National promised voters that the cost of living would come down, that crime would stop, incomes would grow, climate change would be addressed, and we would all be better off, but that is not what we are seeing. Under National, \u201Cback on track\u201D means rents are up, unemployment is up, benefit numbers are up, groceries are up. Insurances: up. Energy: up. Young people not engaged in training or education: up. Rates: up. Auckland businesses are closing at a much higher rate than their counterparts in the rest of the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EYou just can\u2019t trust this Government, because nothing they do stacks up. It\u2019s just slogans. It\u2019s out of step with what experts say, and they aren\u2019t focused on what really matters to Aucklanders. They believe that the still-to-be-proven repeal of the regional fuel tax eases the cost of living, and even if this was so, that gives Aucklanders back a mere $2 per week. Add on $50 for additional rego fees, add on public transport costs, add on prescription costs, add on their dirty fuel excise taxes. Even with all of their talk of tax cuts, an average Auckland family will pay at least $80 more per week under this National Government\u2014$80 more per week. Aucklanders are left short-changed under National with all of their broken promises, and they just cannot be trusted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EIs this surprising when we look at the Minister responsible for Auckland issues? The Minister for Auckland is supposed to advocate on behalf of Aucklanders and coordinate an all-of-Government response. I think he spends more time working outside of Auckland than in, but he also has no plan to reduce congestion, to reduce crime, and, what I\u2019ve spoken to today, he\u2019s got no plan to reduce the cost of living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EInstead, he\u2019s supported tax cuts for landlords and expected that to trickle down. He\u2019s ripped out M\u0101ori wards. These are not priorities for Aucklanders. The cuts that he has supported are too extreme. The half-price public transport scrapped\u2014more expensive to get around our city\u2014$1.2 billion hole in Auckland infrastructures fund, disabling our city to futureproof our infrastructure. They promised to train 500 more front-line officers in two years\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022042ce62556d545e8b9da15e3d4a7a0a2\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022322ab738e23c4c208a4445514fd89713\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but instead they have reduced police numbers from Auckland\u2019s North Shore, Mr Brewer, and West Auckland to prop up their CBD response teams. In addition to that, huge cuts to Oranga Tamariki funding, including the North Shore Women\u2019s Centre, leaving up to 500 women\u2014vulnerable women and their tamariki\u2014without support and forcing their closure. They promised no impact to front-line services, and here we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve also scrapped the building of property of desperately needed classrooms and schools across T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland and in my local community. Beach Haven Primary School, Birkenhead Primary, and Willow Park Schools\u2014they\u2019ve cancelled the building of our classrooms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EAucklanders work hard, they pay their taxes, and they wanted a cost of living plan that this Government has not delivered\u2014they\u2019ve broken their promise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u00221a30793c1a9949da911187fe2e6340d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a30793c1a9949da911187fe2e6340d0\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is with great pride that I stand and do my first speech in the general debate in this House. Look, in just a very short period of time, it will be a year since we were elected, and what a massive year it has been so far. The amount of incredible hard work done by the Ministers and MPs on the side of the House is quite extraordinary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EJust this week, we heard about the travesty that is our educational achievement in maths and literacy once more being sheeted home to us that, in New Zealand, we have been failing our children. Only 22 percent of our year 8 students are achieving at year 8 level. And, you know, we need, now, an approach that works. So it\u2019s with great pride that our wonderful Minister of Education, Erica Stanford, has made the incredible announcements this week to bring forward the focus on numeracy to get our kids back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EI want to applaud the statement made by the Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon, at the weekend, where he said, \u201CThis issue \u2026 is bigger than politics.\u201D, because I think that this is simply one of the most important things we have to sort out, because our future in this country depends on it. We have the smartest kids in the world, and, currently, we\u2019re doing them a disservice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EIn my electorate, the mighty East Coast, the most beautiful electorate in the country, our educational achievement has been slipping over the past few years, and so has the area of our regular attendance at school. It\u2019s slightly on the improve now, but some of the towns in my electorate still struggle to get their children to school. Regular attendance ranges from 29 percent in some towns to 59 percent, which is the highest, across thousands of students in our electorate. We must do better than this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EOne way to keep kids coming back, day after day, is to make sure they\u2019re engaged, which is where our structured literacy and numeracy comes in. Education is the game-changer. It\u2019s one of the very important pieces of work we need to nail, to break down our intergenerational cycles of poverty, our benefit dependency, and truancy. This issue was one of the biggest facing the communities I represent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003ENow, those folks on the other side of the House will find every reason to oppose this and to rail against this, and they\u2019ll say that the curriculum won\u2019t be right or that it was National\u2019s fault, or whatever other rebuttal they\u2019ll come up with. But I say it\u2019s time to stand up. For once, just understand that six years of nothing has not helped. It is time to take the politics out of this and find a way to get in behind it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EI met a young fella the other day in my electorate who\u2019d been in a gang all his life. He left school at 12. He couldn\u2019t read or write, so secondary school was a bit of a disaster. He left home. He lived on the street. There\u2019s a lot to unpack in his story, but he told me that he\u2019d learnt to read so he could get his driver\u2019s licence. It was the proudest thing he\u2019d ever done. Finally, he\u2019d achieved something, and, now, he looked in the rear-vision mirror for safety, not for a cop. He changed his life, because the downward spiral of getting into trouble for him started from not being able to read and not getting a licence. Now, imagine what else he could do now with a bit of self-esteem and mana restored. I repeat: it\u2019s the game-changer, it\u2019s how people get a job, it\u2019s how they make a contribution to society and the community they live in, and it\u2019s leadership for change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s time to get New Zealand back on track. We are in a very challenging period of New Zealand\u2019s modern history. Our country is at a turning point. We are working hard to bring recovery from woeful fiscal management, from ideological rhetoric\u2014and let me just give you an example. Let me draw to your attention, last week, when I listened to the debate on the very fine work from Minister Simeon Brown on roadside drug-testing. What I can\u2019t help but shake my head at is a member of the Green Party, a former Minister of Transport no less, who, in speaking against the bill, said of the evidence that deaths and serious road accidents caused by drugs was only 7 percent and, therefore, in her terms, weren\u2019t that serious. Well, tell that to the parents and friends and family of people who died because people took drugs and drove their vehicles. I just can\u2019t let that go. Any death, in my book, is one too many. It\u2019s just another example, I think, of the ideological rhetoric that we have heard, time after time, from that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EWe cannot gamble with the education of our children in this country for one minute longer, and I\u2019m delighted that we will now focus on teaching the basics brilliantly for the sake of our children. I just want to say, too, to the good hard-working taxpaying people of New Zealand who are now enjoying tax relief for the first time in 14 years, we won\u2019t be taking advice from an Opposition who overtaxed, overspent, and, now, is over there. Let\u2019s get New Zealand back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022b97d06a27f6e431d986adae17117e158\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b97d06a27f6e431d986adae17117e158\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E To Martin Phillipps:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI know deep down hidden in you submarine bells chime\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EGolden groaning, sunlit toning, submerged sound sublime\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EDeep and dark my submarine bells groan in greens and grey\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMine would chime a thousand times to make you feel OK\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt is OK for you now, Martin Phillipps. I note the committal on the Order Paper that refers to his passing on 28 July at 61 years of age. Martin Phillipps was an iconic New Zealand musician who does deserve recognition in this House and I would like to pay tribute to him. On Friday in Dunedin, maybe it will rain, maybe there\u2019ll be rain on the window pane of the Glenroy Auditorium as New Zealand musicians from all over the country come down to celebrate the life of this wonderful singer-songwriter who really helped develop the iconic Dunedin sound. He wrote songs that were of place, land, sea and people with a deep sense of melancholy, and he became infused into the Dunedin cultural fabric. His collection was immortalised in the Otago Museum and also through the incredible documentary by Julia Parnell, who I had the privilege of working with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EHe was brilliant. I think he was a brilliant enigma, actually. As Neil Finn said, he was one of New Zealand\u2019s greatest songwriters. He was name checked by Iggy Pop and R.E.M. He was an enigma because he was humble and intelligent and one of the most unlikely rock stars you could meet. I had the privilege of watching him play when I went to Otago University. I interviewed him as a journalist when he came back from a fairly failed tour of the US and had the kindness and generosity to let me interview him about that particular chapter of his life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI also worked with him in Glasgow at the Celtic Connections, where he wowed the Scottish audience there and I could really see how he had earned such incredible international acclaim. I finally got to meet him many times on street corners when the Labour Party would go out and campaign and Marty would always come out\u2014on reflection, I think, to honour the loyalty that I had given to him. So I\u2019m really looking forward to his send off on Friday with his family; his father, Donald; his sisters, Sara and Rachel; and, of course, hosted by his biggest fan and friend\u2014possibly\u2014my former colleague Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, Marty did have mental health journeys and it is no secret that he suffered addiction, which is probably partly responsible for his early departure. So it\u2019s appropriate that I do speak to my mental health shadow portfolio today and draw attention to something that I think Marty would want attention drawn to, which is the misnomer that this Government is not cutting services to the front line of mental health. We have seen that in Southland, no less\u2014the area where both Marty and I were very approximate to\u2014where staff had sent emails showing that vacancies for mental health nurses, despite the\u00A0fact that those roles are desperately needed, ads have been pulled down from Health New Zealand\u2019s website. We\u2019ve seen broken promises with the number of psychiatrists promised by this National-led Government before the election\u201414; we have not seen any\u00A0movement of that. They\u2019ve promised 500 new mental health staff and yet they haven\u2019t even been able to get the 50 extra doctors placed that they had promised prior to the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat really concerns me this week is the health innovation funding, because $24\u00A0million was earmarked for Gumboot Friday through a procurement that was, in my view, half-baked. Now, we see the remaining $10 million\u2014that\u2019s over two years\u2014that was announced in this Budget, where NGOs and community groups thought they had a real shot at maybe getting some funding. Well, guess what! To get that funding, the organisations have to have a minimum of 80 full-time employees and $250,000 in matching funding. I would challenge any member of this House to tell me which community mental health group has a spare $250,000 kicking around in their bank account, or, if they did, that it would not be taken back by this Government as we heard in question time today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo I leave those thoughts as I remember my friend\u2014somebody who I really looked up to, and I know the whole of Dunedin did\u2014Martin Phillipps. We will salute you on Friday, we will continue to carry your mental health message, and we will continue always to listen to your music.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8949bae666d4a949b21065407769d5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8949bae666d4a949b21065407769d5c\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. I note that it is the Cook Islands M\u0101ori Language Week, so it is a pleasure to stand on behalf of New Zealand First and this Government as we understand the importance of reconnecting with the Pacific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EMy leader, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, has brought a new energy and commitment to our Pacific neighbours. You could say, in fact, he has become the champion of the Pacific, the Rt Hon Winston Peters. As he has said, the Pacific is a major focus of New Zealand\u2019s foreign policy and it\u2019s important that we get into the region and spend time with all members of the Pacific family, because every member of the Pacific family matters to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EI have to say that my leader, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, would have to be the hardest-working and most highly respected Foreign Minister. Today, in the House, this very day, the Prime Minister actually noted that the Foreign Minister is doing an exceptional job as a Foreign Minister for New Zealand and that we should be incredibly proud of him, because he\u2019s lifting the intensity and urgency of our relationships across the Indo-Pacific like no one has done before. In fact, that previous Government were absent in terms of their connection with the Pacific. So it\u2019s good to see that we have a Foreign Minister who is totally engaged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EBut wait, there\u2019s more. Shane Jones, the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, like a modern-day way finder navigating Te Moana-nui-a-Kiwa, our champion of the regions, has crossed the mighty Pacific Ocean, distributing the p\u016Btea. You could say, in fact, he has become the associate champion of the Pacific, a little bit like our own Hana K\u014Dk\u014D. Our M\u0101ori Centre, $50 million has been sent off to the Pacific to support sustainable Pacific Islands fisheries development over the next four years. This will go some way to address the recommendations of the parliamentary inquiry into illegal, unregulated, and unreported\u2014that\u2019s IUU\u2014fishing by supporting better capacity and capability for monitoring and combating illegal fishing. So he\u2019s out there, like the Foreign Minister, connecting with the Pacific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EIn fact, my helper next to me will hand me this visual representation of exactly where the Foreign Minister and Shane Jones have been traversing across the Pacific. There we go, all the way, connecting around some of the islands they\u2019ve been through\u2014Fiji, Australia as well, Tonga, Cook Islands, Samoa, Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu, Tuvalu, the Solomon Islands, Nauru and Niue. Shane Jones has been to Solomon Islands and Fiji. I myself feature on this very map. I have been to New Caledonia, where I was able to attend the Anzac celebrations earlier this year\u2014the first time a Government representative in more than a decade visited Noumea for those Anzac celebrations. Also spreading out some p\u016Btea as we opened up the science lab, which will take a look at why these fish under these climate changes, warming seas, are moving out of the exclusive economic zones of these very Pacific islands, and the challenges they bring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EBut wait, there\u2019s more\u2014more to come, as the Deputy Prime Minister leads another political delegation, a cross-party, across-the-House delegation; first off to Fiji, then, of course, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia and Palau. In fact, he said we have a goal of visiting all other 17 members of the Pacific Islands Forum during 2024, and this visit will mean they have made it up to 14 so far and on the way to 17 of those member nations by the end of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EBut it doesn\u2019t stop there. Back home, just last week, the Deputy Prime Minister and myself attended Radio New Zealand, where the Foreign Minister flicked the switch for the shortwave transmission which beams out across from Taup\u014D, and that shortwave signal bounces on to the pumice, up into the ionosphere and bounces across the Pacific, spreading out those wonderful messages into the Pacific Islands, which is really important when there are cyclones. As we knew with the Tonga eruption, getting those messages through\u2014shortwave does get through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003ESo, in conclusion, as it is Cook Islands M\u0101ori Language Week and the theme of the week is \u201CConnect me to the canoe of my tribe\u201D, I\u2019d just like to suggest that if there\u2019s someone no longer of your tribe on your waka, then it\u2019s time to invoke the waka jumping rule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9b051fb1e4c491ba30a69af14f0ba5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9b051fb1e4c491ba30a69af14f0ba5b\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I join my colleague in congratulating a very excellent foreign affairs Minister, one of a number of excellent foreign affairs Ministers we\u2019ve had over the past few years that this House can celebrate, I\u2019m sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to say that today is a great day for New Zealand, it\u2019s a great day for Mount Roskill, and it\u2019s a great day for the people of Northcote and for Dan Bidois, because for many working New Zealanders, today is pay day. For many working New Zealanders, they will check their bank accounts today and they will see more money in their account this week than what they saw last week. For many working New Zealanders, after 14 years of hard work and toil, finally they are able to keep more of what they earn, because today tax relief is here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EToday is a great day for the people of mid- and South Canterbury. It may surprise you to know that my electorate is the hardest-working electorate in the country. We are ranked number one in the country for the number of workers who work between 50 and 59 hours per week. One-fifth of my electorate are labourers and 16 percent are in manufacturing, which are both the second-highest in the country. We know what hard work looks like. We know what turning up to work looks like. We know what it\u2019s like to grind and toil day after day, night after night, to provide for our families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003ESpeaking of families in my electorate, 23 percent of families in my electorate earn between $70,000 and $100,000 per year, the highest rate of all electorates in New Zealand. They are the ones that will benefit from tax relief. They know what it\u2019s like\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da5f7b082a5340ba8143cf2ad411ae70\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ll be happy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222136fef587f45caafc9f0fdfb213862\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to provide for their families, Mr Brewer. They work hard. They deserve to keep more of what they earn. From today, they will start seeing that in their pay cheques and in their bank accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EToday is a great day for the freezing workers of Smithfield and ANZCO Foods who spend 10 hours a day on their feet in gumboots on concrete, processing meat and goods for export around the world. Today they see their hard work rewarded with tax relief for working New Zealanders, Mr Costley. Today is a great day for the supermarket workers at Countdown Browne Street in Timaru and at New World Temuka who pack the bags and stack the shelves, working long into the night to provide the essential goods and services that we need for our families. Today they see their hard work rewarded with tax relief for working New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EToday is a great day for truck drivers and port workers and mine operators, irrigation services and nurses and teachers and police officers and taxi drivers and baristas and retailers and every other working New Zealander. They finally have a Government who backs them to know what\u2019s best for them, a Government that knows that they are the ones who are best placed to make spending decisions for them and their families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EThis is not a Government which rests on its laurels. Today has also revealed an uptick in unemployment as the hangover from years of economic mismanagement finally kicks in and we on this side are left to clean up the mess. Inflation is dropping but continues to sit above the 3 percent target, meaning a prolonged wait for mortgage-holders as interest rates stay high in order to beat inflation down. Every single day, we have Ministers of this Government discovering more and more hidden financial time bombs, and every day we on this side of the House give thanks that New Zealand has a strong and courageous finance Minister in Nicola Willis to steer us through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EWe will continue to hold up our end of the bargain. We will remain disciplined in our spending, ensuring every dollar is providing a return for New Zealanders in stronger economic growth, in safer streets, and in better health and education. There will be a high bar for new spending, as the finance Minister said, and it must align with Government priorities. What we save as a Government, we will return to working New Zealanders. Because while no side of the House owns the workers, only one side of the House truly supports the workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EFinally, today is a great day for one Rose Stocker, the queen of Timaru, who turned 60 years old today. So on behalf of myself, Stuart, Zachary, Mykhaela, Harry, Oscar, Theo, Alfie, Xavier, and Lachlan, happy birthday, mum. You are a legend. Thank you for walking the dogs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9215e7c389a429294bd3e8c8a32f695\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9215e7c389a429294bd3e8c8a32f695\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you Mr Speaker. These are challenging times. If anyone\u2019s seen the unemployment rate\u2014up to 4.6 today\u2014there is a severe shortage of energy, essential not only to big businesses but small ones and households, that I hope one day the parties opposite will take some ownership of for what they did. There is a geopolitical situation that\u2019s pretty unstable, and not enough knowledge being transferred from one generation to the next. Yet we heard an Opposition party, and two and three, actually, who tried to do a quiz on the articles of the Treaty and talk about an invitation to an Australian to a party. That\u2019s the standard that we\u2019re getting from the Opposition, and I\u2019d rather be talking about those other issues and what the Government is doing in each and every case to ensure that our spending is wise, that the economy is back under control, that people can afford to get to the end of the week with some money left in their account thanks to tax cuts, and what we\u2019re doing to make sure kids are getting to school and learning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI chose to take a speech in the general debate today on behalf of the ACT Party to talk about a value that is essential to the beliefs of our party, and I would hope every party in this Parliament. That is the simple idea that each of us are a sovereign human individual with the right as an adult to choose somebody to go and speak for us freely in public affairs. Whether it\u2019s this Parliament or the local council, you have the right and each one of us has the right to pick a representative to go and express our views, no matter what they may be, so that we can settle our differences as a country and come together in consensus and make progress in public affairs in a peaceful way with no Vladimir Putin Russian threats of violence, no intimidation, just the best arguments eventually prevailing in healthy public debate. I love that value. It is foundational to our country and the prosperity that we all enjoy as citizens of a free and democratic society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhen I hear that a councillor in New Plymouth by the name of Murray Chong is on the radio saying that he has had to change his vote on a matter he believes important because he\u2019s being intimidated, he\u2019s having people firing air rifles at the car outside his house, he\u2019s told that he can\u2019t walk at night because he\u2019ll be king-hit and \u201Cwake up in hospital\u201D, that goes, actually, not just to the heart of New Plymouth or Murray Chong but to every single New Zealander who\u2019s grown up in this country and inherited that basic right to be able to choose a representative to participate and express their views in public affairs without being intimidated or threatened or talked down like somebody might if they tried to contest an election in Moscow or Pyongyang. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThat is why the ACT Party is calling on every single political party in this House to condemn the threats of political violence against Murray Chong, to agree that while we may differ on the question of M\u0101ori wards\u2014and this Government certainly has a view\u2014that it is absolutely wrong that anybody in an elected office should ever be threatened with violence or a sanction of changing the political views. They should be able to express the views of the people who elected them without fear or favour or concern for their physical safety. If there\u2019s anyone in this House who doesn\u2019t believe that, then they ought to ask themselves what exactly it is that they\u2019re doing here, or why it is that perhaps their own arguments are so feeble that they cannot win them in an intellectual contest but would seek to win them in some other type of contest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI have been disappointed at how little response there\u2019s been from other party leaders. We\u2019ve heard a lot today about invitations, we\u2019ve heard a quiz on the Treaty, we\u2019ve had questions about what the Government is doing about a 4,000-year-old conflict on the other side of the world, but I haven\u2019t heard from the Opposition parties condemnation of political violence against an elected councillor in New Plymouth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EMurray Chong might be an eccentric character, he might not be the person that you or I would vote for should we live in New Plymouth, but nobody, including him, deserves to be threatened or menaced with political violence for holding a view that\u2019s sincerely held on behalf of the people who elected them. They have the rights and the duty to express those views on behalf of the voters, in order for that democratic inheritance from which we\u2019ve all benefited so greatly to continue to function and work, in a society where all of us are blessed with equal rights and freedom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220606866ac0fa4223a69ae1c39c71000b\u0022\u003ERegulatory Systems (Education) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002268947c5f7d6741d0876739cfafcb2ffa\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000377\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 30 July.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022366649edbd27440ea8aec9362f0a3fec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022366649edbd27440ea8aec9362f0a3fec\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We are discussing the Regulatory Systems (Education) Amendment Bill, and I want to use my brief contribution this afternoon to comment on the part of the bill that makes some changes to the provisions that govern the Pacific Education Foundation, and this bill amends their Act, which was passed originally in 1972.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe board of the Pacific Education Foundation administers various kinds of support and scholarships and grants for Pacific peoples, including the Tul\u012B Takes Flight scholarships as part of the Government\u2019s goodwill package\u2014in fact, the former Labour Government\u2019s goodwill package that was set up in response to the Dawn Raids. The reason I want to comment on this is that it sparked my interest, because one of the provisions here changes the definition of a \u201CPacific person\u201D and replaces it with a new definition for an \u201CAotearoa Pacific person\u201D. The intention here is to ensure that the definition of people who are selected for the board of the Pacific Education Foundation reflect the new diverse reality of New Zealand and our cities. It refers to a person with \u201Cindigenous Pacific cultural heritage\u201D, and it expands the list of Pacific places\u2014a longer list than was in the previous definition\u2014and it means that more Aotearoa Pacific learners and their families will be eligible for support from the foundation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe thing I wanted to say about this is that there is a very live debate going on in Auckland right now amongst the Fijian Indian community, which is a significant, large, and quite fast-growing community\u2014particularly in West Auckland, where I\u2019m based. The Fijian Indians are all the sons and daughters of the Girmits. That is the people who were indentured labourers in the 1800s. In fact, 145 years ago, the first ship arrived delivering the first group of what turned out to be more than 60,000 people who the British colonial authorities shipped from India to cut sugar cane in Fiji, and it was indentured labour. They weren\u2019t there particularly by choice. They were there, actually, in conditions that were far more akin to slavery than the kind of employment practices that we would associate with modern times. The Fijian Indian community believes\u2014many of those people\u2014that they are Pacific people. They have lived generation after generation in the Pacific, in Fiji. They shaped and developed the country that Fiji is today, and many of them and their offspring have subsequently made new lives in New Zealand and are making a fantastic contribution to this country. They now mark Girmit Day every 14 May, and they have reclaimed and celebrate that identity as Girmityas, the people of the Girmit. \u201CGirmit\u201D is a transliteration, from that time in the 1800s, of the English word \u201Cagreement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESo they feel strongly that they should be recognised as a people with a distinctive historical experience and cultural identity that places them in the Pacific, and yet they are not. They are not recognised that way by numerous different Government agencies. In raising this, I\u2019m not having a crack at the Pacific Education Foundation; Labour\u2019s supporting this bill, which tidies up various regulations, but I do think it\u2019s important that as a country and as lawmakers, we can listen to and consider the arguments being put forward by the Fijian Indian community that they should be recognised as Pacific people. For nearly 150 years, they have been in this region. That is the historical experience that shaped them. They are just as much Pacific people and are not people of India anymore, just as P\u0101keh\u0101 people in New Zealand who have lived here for generations don\u2019t consider themselves to be, any more, people of Britain. I think that\u2019s a really interesting argument that that we need to consider in this super-diverse country that we now live in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7cc1c7f6faf492aba0cfb4fb2da681f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7cc1c7f6faf492aba0cfb4fb2da681f\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Isn\u2019t it great to have the Opposition wholeheartedly support us in promoting this bill through the House? I was thinking how good it would have been if they\u2019d supported the tax relief the hard-working low and middle income earners are now getting in their back pockets. Not only didn\u2019t they support it, some of them even asked for it to be donated to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses somewhat minor but nevertheless important and necessary changes to modernise the legislation. It will preserve the legacy and mana of the 28th M\u0101ori Battalion into the future, support the work of the Pacific Education Foundation, and ensure that education regulatory systems are fit for purpose, such as amending the Health and Safety at Work Act. Regarding the Ngarimu VC and 28th (M\u0101ori) Battalion Memorial Scholarship Fund Act, this bill will clear up some legal confusion regarding the administration of the scholarship fund and also management of the use of the M\u0101ori Battalion\u2019s names and emblems\u2014this bill will provide clarity as to who can administer the fund. Only one member of the M\u0101ori Battalion is still alive, and this bill will help preserve the legacy and mana of the M\u0101ori Battalion by ensuring there is representation of M\u0101ori soldiers or veterans on the board. This bill replaces \u201CNew Zealand Defence Force\u201D with \u201CArmed Forces\u201D, which ensures that only soldiers\u2014rather than civilian staff\u2014are eligible to be the representative on the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003EI would take a moment to reflect on the dedication and sacrifice of those who have and do serve New Zealand and thank them for their service. Lest we forget, as we stand here surrounded by the names of the battles that have been fought to give us the freedom that we enjoy today\u2014lest we forget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003EThis bill also makes amendments to the list of Pacific people in New Zealand who can benefit from the Pacific Education Foundation easier, and this ensures the definition reflects the diversity we have in this country now and into the future. This also updates the Pacific Education Foundation board\u2019s function and reporting requirements, enabling better support of Pacific education outcomes. On this side of the House, we recognise the importance of education\u2014a good, solid one\u2014as evidenced by Minister of Education Stanford and this side of the House\u2019s unwavering and relentless focus on improved educational outcomes for all New Zealanders, and anything that contributes to this, such as this bill, should be commended. On that note, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0162357aa2842b4adb534c4188b2696\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0162357aa2842b4adb534c4188b2696\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Wh\u0101ia te iti kahurangi; ki te t\u016Bohu koe, me he maunga teitei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E[Pursue the rarest of treasures; should you bow your head, let it be to a towering mountain.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s my pleasure to speak to this particular piece of legislation before us today, the Regulatory Systems (Education) Amendment Bill. I\u2019m very passionate about our young people achieving and ensuring that our tamariki mokopuna have the best opportunities in front of them, both in our compulsory education sector and also right through to secondary school education and through to higher learning, whether that be in polytechs, universities, or trades training. I\u2019m an absolute believer that every person should have the same opportunity to learn, the same opportunity to carve a path to a good life, to a good job, and to raise their family.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been confused by this Government\u2019s position on m\u0101tauranga, on education. At the one end, we have charter schools\u2014an ideological experiment that enables certain schools in this country to be funded more than others\u2014and at the other end is a Government that wants to micro-manage compulsory education in our State school system. The introduction of compulsory reading, writing, and arithmetic for one hour a day really takes away any confidence that we have in our practitioners, our teachers, and the people that we trust to teach and learn our tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been confused by the cancellation of a number of building projects up and down the country, and particularly in Auckland, in my own community. But what I do see today is some sense and a kaupapa in education that I personally find very important. I\u2019ve travelled to Te Tair\u0101whiti\u2014and I acknowledge the member for East Coast, Dana Kirkpatrick MP\u2014on the East Coast and the wonderful place of Turanga Gisborne, where they house the museum for the 28th (M\u0101ori) Battalion. Eight weeks ago, I visited there for the first time. It\u2019s a special place. It\u2019s a special place to this country, which honours people who went to fight for this country, for who we are, but also it\u2019s where my grandfather\u2019s picture sits, as somebody who served this country for, in effect, what we have now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhen I was lucky enough to travel to T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland, after growing up in the wonderful place of Hawke\u2019s Bay, I had the opportunity to go on to further education, to university, and, as a first in family, study at undergraduate level. I wanted to go to university because I knew that at that place, whatever it was\u2014and I\u2019m not sure that at that time I knew exactly what university was, but I knew it was a ticket to opportunity, and I knew it was a ticket to influence the lives of others, to make New Zealand a better place, and that I in my lifetime can make a contribution to some of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThen, as a part of Ng\u0101 Tauira M\u0101ori, the M\u0101ori Students\u2019 Association, at the University of Auckland, this particular contribution and investment in rangatahi M\u0101ori was in fact a pathway to that success. It enabled people to study at undergraduate level. It took away particular barriers that were there, unnecessarily in some senses, and the injustices that we face in this country, where not everyone has the same opportunity as the guy or girl next to them. That funded their opportunities, their hopes and aspirations to lead a better life and be educated. So this particular legislation, I have followed through the first, second, and third readings, from the last Government to this one, and I\u2019m pleased that in the House today we are able to come together and that Labour will continue to support this original piece of legislation that we established in the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI acknowledge this Government for continuing it through to completion, because the Ngarimu VC and 28th (M\u0101ori) Battalion Memorial Scholarship Fund Act is an important one. It enables some of the technicalities to be taken away, to make it easier to fund rangatahi, young people, and particularly M\u0101ori, to access the learning opportunities that they desire. But also it looks back to the people who have served this country, just like my grandfather, who sit in that place in Te Tair\u0101whiti in honour of the fight, of the justice, but most of all the opportunities that they provided to all of us. T\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022a89f80c8730b477483fe32efcc38f1b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a89f80c8730b477483fe32efcc38f1b1\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, it\u2019s a great pleasure to rise and take the final call on the Regulatory Systems (Education) Amendment Bill. There are three main parts of the bill in the sense that we\u2019re looking to firstly preserve the legacy and the mana of the 28th M\u0101ori Battalion into the future, we\u2019re looking to support the work of the Pacific Education Foundation, and to ensure that education regulatory systems are fit for purpose. But I would like to focus my contribution today on the first part of this, which was about focusing on preserving the legacy and mana of the 28th M\u0101ori Battalion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve spoken in some ways on this before but from a slightly different angle. This time, I\u2019d like to talk about not only the lead up to the M\u0101ori Battalion itself but M\u0101ori contributions to the wars of New Zealand over time\u2014the wars that New Zealand has partaken in over time. Going back to the Boer War and into World War I, they often went as volunteers and served our country, and it was with great honour that they served our country. It was when they went to the World War I that we had such great M\u0101ori leaders as Harding Waipuke Leaf, who\u2019s from my part of the world up in Northland, from Hokianga. He was a great leader of men, and he really contributed to our efforts in World War I. At one point, he was told he wasn\u2019t allowed to actually fight, he had to go and dig the trenches and so forth. But then he got sick of that. So, at one stage, he just simply picked up a rifle grab and made the battle cry \u201CFight like the Ururoa, fight to the death.\u201D The M\u0101ori contingent has then gone on and contributed in such an amazing way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EThen, along came World War II and the formation of the 28th M\u0101ori Battalion, an amazing battalion made up of four companies: A Company was from the Northern tribes, my part of the world and were known as the Gum Diggers; B Company were from the Bay of Plenty tribes and they were known as the Penny Divers; then there was C Company from the East Coast, who were known as the Cowboys, probably something to do with the horses they all rode around up there, and probably still do to this day according to Dana Kirkpatrick, my colleague from the East Coast; and, of course, then there was D Company, which was from the rest of the country, and they were known as Ng\u0101ti Walkabout. They went off to war, and, actually, Ng\u0101puhi at one point weren\u2019t going to go because Sergeant Leaf\u2014Harding Leaf\u2014wanted to go back to war but he was too old. So Ng\u0101puhi simply sent the message down to say, \u201CLook, if Sergeant Leaf can\u2019t go, we won\u2019t go.\u201D So guess what! Off they went. But, unfortunately, Sergeant Leaf was killed in action in\u2014I believe it was Crete\u2014in the first battle of Crete in 1941. A true hero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EAs we progressed through the war, the 28th fought in many places and fought Rommel\u2019s Afrika Korps and the Italian forces. Battles followed in Egypt, El Alamein, Tebaga Gap, and Takrouna. During the Battle of Medenine in Tunisia, the 28th suffered 22 casualties\u2014right? One of these was Second Lieutenant Te Moananui-a-Kiwa Ng\u0101rimu, the man this scholarship is named after, which I thought was quite appropriate as this inspired leadership obviously earned him a VC. Then they went on to fight in the big fight of all, which was of course Monte Casino\u2014that was in Italy. In here, we can find the names of all the battles; you\u2019ll find the battle of Casino. The M\u0101ori Battalion suffered the heaviest losses of any of the battalions that fought there on our behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EThen, as the war came to an end and we came back\u2014hold on, I\u2019ve got to find my place. Here we go\u2014I got a bit lost. As the war came to an end, we came home. The final command of the M\u0101ori Battalion\u2014Sir James H\u0113nare sent the members of the battalion back to New Zealand and said \u201Ctu M\u0101ori mai\u201D, \u201Cstand as M\u0101ori\u201D, as he dismissed his troops. It was then, actually, when we talked about the mana of the battalion, preserving it\u2014I think we need to reflect on, when they came back, the lack of mana and respect that was shown to the M\u0101ori people when they returned to New Zealand. For example, they were not entitled to the same service rate when they came back, in terms of pay; they were not entitled to enter into our ballots for farms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EThen there was something that I discovered with the help of my colleague across the floor Peeni Henare. He told me the story of the local RSA in Kawakawa, where, after the war, the only M\u0101ori allowed into the RSA were the officers\u2014and that was Sir James himself, but he refused to go in because his troops weren\u2019t allowed to. That was not reversed until, I believe it was, 1985, which is a long time. That\u2019s only very recently. So it\u2019s one of the things that really did trample over the mana, and I think it\u2019s important that we recognise those things. That was an injustice that was undeserved because they all went to war as volunteers. I think we really need to respect that contribution to our people, and people need to acknowledge that history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EFinally, as we come to the conclusion, I\u2019d like to thank everybody who\u2019s contributed to this debate. It\u2019s been a great debate, and I\u2019d like to conclude by saying what the battalion would have said as they went into battle:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EM\u014D te Atua! M\u014D te kingi! Me te whenua!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EAu\u0113! Ake, ake, kia kaha e!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EFor God! For King! And for country! For ever and ever. Be strong. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227781e6ec452949f99a8514b52799ad8f\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002247b7b1c6d7ff4bb0918f944ac7f3e273\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000408\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc5c540169b14ef4a0c6e6fe9248b76b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc5c540169b14ef4a0c6e6fe9248b76b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. Members, we come first to Part 1, and Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 7, Preliminary provisions and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002286060aa5d24e47349dcfbbd618a55aca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286060aa5d24e47349dcfbbd618a55aca\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc9bea59939f497da67ffdd8ba705b8e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Barbara Edmonds. I just about took a vote then, so members need to know to be on their feet quickly, but the Hon Barbara Edmonds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc8d1350cb8446e951241c2931f5aa2\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I also want to acknowledge the Minister in the chair, who is not the Minister for Local Government but I understand that she is more than capable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2c41a6bf6e54241a683c065c4849641\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd60c3d916cb483bbc48baa501c1698a\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of being able to answer questions\u2014and, yes, better, and I learnt that from experience, so I do want to acknowledge you, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EActually, my general question is, first: Part 1 of this particular bill contains the preliminary provisions of the bill, such as the purpose, the overview, interpretation. I\u2019m going to have a couple of questions as we go through but to the Minister\u2014and I\u2019ll ask the question now in case officials can provide some advice, and that\u2019s in relation to the regulatory impact statement, in particular, because the Minister is the Attorney-General as well and would understand this particular area of law quite well, which is the Official Information Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThis particular regulatory impact statement was drafted on 14 March 2024, so it\u2019s been a number of months and as I travailed through the regulatory impact statements there were a number of parts of the regulatory impact statement which refer to the purpose of the course because it sets out the root causes of the problem, which is why we\u2019ve gotten to the point that we have today, which is the bill. It sets out various parts of analysis and what I notice is during parts of those analysis, there have actually been parts that have been redacted under the Official Information Act under 9 (2)(a), (b), subclause 12, subsection 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EFor members of the House who are not aware, that particular part of the Official Information Act advises that you can refuse the release of information if for any particular reason it has some sort of commercial sensitivity or other sort of sensitivity, which is why officials have taken that particular position to redact it. My quick question to the Minister, and then I can go back and continue the speech while the Minister gets some advice, is that there are particular elements in relation to paragraphs\u2014the end of paragraph 98, 99, 100, 101, paragraph 102, 103, and, obviously, other footnotes\u2014which have all been redacted under that particular provision of the Official Information Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EMy question is: has there been a revisiting of this particular advice, whether officials are able to release some of that information because we have had additional time since March when it was first drafted. The reason why I\u2019m pointing to that particular information is because it goes to the root cause as to why we have got in to this bill in the first place, which is around funding constraints. The funding constraints of local government are well known and understood. I was really hoping the Attorney-General could answer my question\u2014so,\u00A0the Minister of Local Government, the question I had is just whether officials or yourself have revisited a number of the redacted clauses within the regulatory impact statement because it does go to the funding constraints. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EFor members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, the funding constraints for local authorities was very much a pivotal reason as to how we got to the affordable water reforms in the first place, which have now been repealed by Local Water Done Well. The funding constraints are the reason why councils up and down the country are having double-digit rate rises and the double-digit rate rises have come from the funding constraints that councils have been put in because the Government decided to remove affordable water reforms. I will go into asking the Minister a few more questions about some comparisons in relation to that, because that does go to the purpose of this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe funding constraints: those paragraphs on pages 27 and 28 of the bill set out some of the growing debt ratios and caps, and also talk about the increasing number of councils that receive credit downgrades and a reliance on rates or user charges to increase the revenue required to support their networks. I think in the fullness of time, given it has been a number of months since this regulatory impact statement was first drafted, it would be really good to understand whether the Minister\u2014if we are able to have a bit more information about what has been withheld as part of that regulatory impact statement, particularly around the funding constraints, so that the members across the whole House are able to have a bit more of a debate around those funding constraints because I understand why officials and why the Minister has to keep that commercially sensitive, however we are now in a position where the Government has introduced a bill which requires local authorities within the next 12 months to provide a plan as to how they\u2019re going to deliver water in their area and then how that plan basically needs to be also part of the public record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI just want to finish this last bit of this speech because I know the time has gone out, but it\u2019s just to check with the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022552d0182ff82474b9c18a223959fc1d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002274470ff8ee37456fac113fb24b9db55a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274470ff8ee37456fac113fb24b9db55a\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. Thank you for letting me take this call on the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. It\u2019s been a real pleasure to be sitting on the Finance and Expenditure Committee for the proceeding of this bill through the House, but I wanted to start my questioning for the Minister of Local Government on the purpose section of Part 1, because I am really concerned, and I\u2019d love to hear the Minister\u2019s thoughts, about how truncated the process was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWhere this comes into question with the purpose is that it says, \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to establish a framework for local government to manage and deliver water services.\u201D Now, my concern about the purpose of this is that because it was such a truncated process for submissions, not all councils were actually able to submit and have their voices heard in the development of this bill. It meant that many councils, because the time frame was only 10 days to submit, were unable to submit because they couldn\u2019t go through the normal processes to actually get sign-off for their submissions. So we really had to rely quite heavily on, more, the joint submissions from the likes of Local Government New Zealand or Taituar\u0101. But I\u2019d love to hear from the Minister about any risks he sees about that council voice, and especially our smaller councils, not being able to be adequately considered in the progression of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI also want to ask the Minister if there\u2019s any concern about the urgency and the truncated process around this time frame, because as the Law Society and many other submitters pointed out during our public hearings process, they considered the use of urgency was not demonstrably necessary or appropriate. So I\u2019m interested for that in terms of the purpose of the bill, because is it really for local government? Who is this really for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI did want to mention as well that of the councils that did end up getting their act together and being able to submit within that 10-day time frame, it was summarised in the official advice that all councils submitted that \u201CThe cost and resource implications are [both] unclear [and significant] for councils, making it challenging to plan or fund the reform[s].\u201D Now, obviously, there\u2019s so many clauses throughout the bill which will highlight this, but I\u2019d really invite overarching comment from the Minister about this overarching concern where local government voices haven\u2019t been able to feed in, and whether he feels like the purpose is still upheld.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI also wanted to point to one of the regulatory impact statements that informs the development of the bill, where it says, \u201CA detailed comparison or analysis of all councils [has] not been included\u201D and that \u201CThe Department [actually] relied heavily on evidence that has been collected from media reports due to time constraints.\u201D, and whether the Minister\u2019s concerned that because there isn\u2019t that strong foundation of this bill actually being developed and thrown around by councils, is it really a strong purpose and foundation for progressing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWhy did the Minister consider it unnecessary to adequately consult councils and have this truncated process, and why did so few of the suggestions submitted by local government actually get incorporated into the bill? Now, we\u2019re going to be able to step through those, but I\u2019d love to hear any overarching comments from the Minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022113ef71804714fe68d5884c00a1acf97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022113ef71804714fe68d5884c00a1acf97\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to take a call in this debate on the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill in the first part here, which deals with the purpose, overview, and interpretation provisions of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a number of questions in relation to, I guess, the time frame and in terms of the purpose of this legislation. This Government recognises the need to act quickly when it comes to this critical issue for councils in regards to their water services and the\u00A0provision of those services. It\u2019s a simple piece of legislation, which, effectively, requires councils to put forward water service delivery plans. It provides their ability to be able to set up council-controlled organisations in a far more efficient manner, and it also has some provisions in relation to Watercare in Auckland. Of course, there\u2019s always going to be questions around the speed and the time frame, and I thank the 55 councils that submitted, which is actually a significant number of councils\u2014listening to the previous member who just took her seat, it sounded like no one submitted; actually 55\u00A0councils submitted. So even within the short time frame\u2014I acknowledge it was a short\u00A0time frame\u201455 councils submitted, and we thank each one for submitting on this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important that, though this legislation does act with pace, as this Government is acting quickly to put in place Local Water Done Well, we have further legislation which will come later this year which will have more detail around the financial arrangements and also the structures for these new water entities, and work is under way on that, at pace, at this stage. But there is an urgency to this issue. I\u2019ve heard comments from the previous member, the Hon Barbara Edmonds, who was saying, \u201CWell, actually, this is a really big issue. We need to act urgently.\u201D So she was saying, \u201CAct urgently.\u201D; a member from the Green Party was saying, \u201CWhy do we act so quickly?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db2624948f764afc9d1315e1d96b4222\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: We are separate parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7424d646e444448b4b94e77b88d8bb4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I know they\u2019re separate parties, but you\u2019re also part of the Opposition, and so\u2014but my point there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e05f6b829346c1a516c6e0bdc37c99\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: The same way you\u2019re a separate Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288bbd291ab184618bd91fbba89564db0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re a great Government, and the point I\u2019d make, though, is two Opposition members had two different perspectives. One was saying, \u201CAct really slowly.\u201D, and the other one was saying, \u201CAct really quickly.\u201D. As a Government, we are acting with urgency on this particular issue. I\u2019ll leave them to decide amongst themselves, between the different Opposition parties, as to what their particular concerns are. Questions made around the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221081e9eef8ed4888b0eb8c7aa70e6f88\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re in for a fun night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215ef5076da9848c5a5df0b71b07be743\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There was a bunch of other\u2014I\u2019m looking forward to it. There were questions around the redacted portions of the regulatory impact statement. This is required to be redacted to preserve the confidentiality in relation to credit rating agencies to ensure that we do not impact the ability of Auckland Council to gain a credit rating for Watercare. So there\u2019s very good commercial reasons for the redaction of that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4930cf8b7ab4abfb46303f4b5428ab6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4930cf8b7ab4abfb46303f4b5428ab6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have two main areas of questioning in this call for the Minister in regard to Part 1 of the bill\u2014one carries on directly from the contribution he\u2019s just made when he talked about the Government\u2019s desire to act quickly. Of course, this is the second stage of a trilogy or a trifecta of legislation that is coming before the House. The first stage, of course, was repealing. The purpose of the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill comes here, which is putting the transitional provisions, which my colleague Barbara Edmonds has talked about. But, really, it\u2019s not until we get to the third bill, the Local Government Water Services Bill\u2014where we get to a lot of the very substantive measures\u2014which is not intended for introduction until, I believe, December 2024, and not for implementation until 2025. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EJust in terms of the time frames and the Minister emphasising the desire to act quickly, I wonder if the Minister would like to outline to the committee in this committee stage why it is he\u2019s not bringing the more substantive piece of legislation\u2014the stage three that will do the things around the long-term regulatory settings for sustainable water delivery, the long-term requirements for financial sustainability, which I think we\u2019ll have much discussion on as we progress different parts of this bill through this evening. That, of course, will include the establishment of the new classes of council water organisations, providing for the complete economic regulation to be developed by the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, amending the legislation for the regulation of water services, establishing the new regulatory backstop, and providing refinements to water services. Given the Minister has spent a lot of time talking about the need to act quickly, I\u2019d like the Minister to explain to the committee why it is that we have to wait until next year until we can have the implementation of the full lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other question I\u2019d like to put to the Minister in regard to Part 1 relates to clause 3, the purpose clause, and that\u2019s 3(2)(b) which is \u201Cproviding for the Minister to assist or intervene if territorial authorities find it difficult to prepare a water services delivery plan;\u201D. Now, the Government has made a lot\u2014and indeed the regulatory impact statement picks up on that\u2014about how this was part of the coalition agreements and it was campaigned on, that this was a part of \u201C[prioritising] \u2026 a policy programme to improve water services delivery to New Zealand through localism and flexibility\u201D. I think we\u2019ve heard that word being bandied out a lot in the election campaign and certainly in the first nine months of Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat I would like some more discussion on, in this committee, while we\u2019re on this purpose clause, which does introduce the idea that the Minister can assist or intervene and come in if there is a failure to prepare a water services delivery plan\u2014is where the Minister sees the red lines around when he will intervene, when the Minister will come over top of local authorities, when it will be decisions made in Wellington about local water services, and exactly where he sees that evolving into the third piece of legislation. I think that this piece of legislation that we\u2019re debating in the Chamber is not probably quite as local as members on the Government benches would like to sell to their communities. There is certainly through this clause here a very strong ministerial override which does amount to a centralised control of water services, and I think we need some extensive conversation around that. It\u2019s introduced in the purpose clause, and we\u2019ll have a number of questions around what the triggers will be, what the levers are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo they\u2019re my questions for the Minister. It\u2019s around why so long for the third part of the trilogy\u2014I think everyone always wants the third part of a trilogy sooner, and it\u2019s no different when it comes to this legislation. But also, what are the triggers where the Minister is going to come in over the top of local authorities\u2014override them and impose his will\u2014and where does he see that red line?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220faf24cd8a504604a211629fb6b00ffd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220faf24cd8a504604a211629fb6b00ffd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for her questions. I think the member, in terms of the question of urgency, should note some of the significant things which this bill does. Firstly, the significant changes it makes for Watercare in Auckland, providing a financially sustainable approach to water infrastructure in Auckland. That is something which has been talked about for many years and it\u2019s been delivered in this piece of legislation. That ensures that Aucklanders won\u2019t face\u2014well, they were going to face a 28 percent increase in water-rate increases from 1 July this year. That has been significantly reduced to well under 10\u00A0percent because of the provisions in this piece of legislation, and that is an urgent change being made in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe other thing this Government is doing is it\u2019s allowing councils to set up council-controlled organisations far more quickly in a streamlined approach\u2014that takes place because of this legislation which has been put in place. Now, the last Government\u2014I love hearing them talk about localism because they forgot about it for the last six years; they forgot all about it. In fact, their approach was to mandate from the Beehive and tell councils how they strip away their assets, strip away their control, and put in place a whole different system. So this allows councils the ability to put forward those decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to clause 3(2)(b) which was put forward by the Hon Megan Woods, the question there in relation to ministerial interventions, we have been very clear there is a role for the Government. Obviously there is Taumata Arowai which has a role around the health regulation, water-quality regulation. This is about economic regulation to make sure that there is a financially sustainable approach, and we also want to ensure that, as it says very plainly, if territorial authorities find it difficult, there is a role for Government to intervene. But that is a backstop rather than being what the previous Government did, which was the first, the second, the third, and the only intervention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0f930acb40e4962a57c61bd5d0a0704\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0f930acb40e4962a57c61bd5d0a0704\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I want to just get a point of clarification from Madam Chair, if that\u2019s OK. If we\u2019re also currently debating Amendment Paper 65 as well, because the previous Chair\u2014OK. I\u2019m seeing not. That\u2019s excellent. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister around this is also around purpose, so we\u2019re looking at clause 3(1) first\u2014that\u2019s my first question. Now, my question is around the points of legality and inconsistency within the legislation, because clause 3(1) talks about establishing a framework for local government to manage and deliver, but an important part of this, if we\u2019re looking at the commentary on pages 2 and 3, is about separating Watercare away from local government, and in terms of the fact that we are shifting the obligation but also prohibiting Auckland Council from providing financial support to Watercare. So I kind of wanted to see if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying whether the separation of Watercare from Auckland Council actually is contradictory to the purpose of the Act in subclause (1), because numerically (1) precedes everything else. I do actually genuinely want to know that, because we have seen that in other legislation as well, where that level of inconsistency could be arguable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second question I have in terms of purpose is around clause 3(2)(d), and this is in reference to the Amendment Paper that the Minister has put forward, Amendment Paper 65, where it talks about replacing (d) with \u201Cprocesses for territorial authorities to use\u201D, whereas the previous wording is \u201Cmay use\u201D. This is also in relation to the amendment that the Minister put forward in terms of clause 4, but we can talk about clause 4 a little bit later. Now, \u201Cfor territorial authorities to use\u201D and \u201Cmay use\u201D can be vastly different in terms of legislative interpretation and statutory interpretation, so I want to get clarification from the Minister if the amendment that the Minister put forward where it says, \u201Cproviding specific consultation and decision-making processes for territorial authorities to use\u201D should be interpreted as a \u201Cmust\u201D or should maintain the current version we have and be interpreted as a \u201Cmay\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThose are the two questions for the Minister. The first one is whether the separation of Watercare and Auckland Council, which I\u2019m sure will be discussed later on as well, overrides the overall purpose under clause 3(1) and whether the Amendment Paper that the Minister put forward for clause 3(2)(d) should be still interpreted as a \u201Cmay\u201D as opposed to a \u201Cmust\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222781ca32502849e6ab49d4f34e3341d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222781ca32502849e6ab49d4f34e3341d5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have some questions\u2014and I will go through clause by clause\u2014a range of questions. First of all, there\u2019s a lot of questions here that I think it would just be very useful to be in the Hansard. As a former lawyer, it\u2019s very useful, always, for the Minister to be able to explain what the legislation is supposed to be doing for both lawyers and law students and anyone else who has to come across a bill\u2014judges as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe first question comes from clause 3, the \u201CPurpose\u201D, and it\u2019s to, at (1), \u201Cestablish a framework for local government to manage and deliver water services.\u201D I\u2019ll just note the term there: \u201Clocal government\u201D. Then we get to (2)(a), and it\u2019s talking about \u201Crequiring territorial authorities to prepare water services delivery plans;\u201D. I think it will be useful for the Minister to make a contribution about why it is different in (1) using the term \u201Clocal government\u201D and in (2) using \u201Cterritorial authorities\u201D. I presume that it is because the framework is for all councils\u2014that is the idea. Then these delivery plans are council by council or perhaps subsets of those councils as well. So that would be useful clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, also, we just had some conversation then about the fact that central government can approve these plans and that they have some control over them, and the Minister made some remarks about how he laughs at the previous Government talking about local councils. But that seems highly ironic, given, in this case, there is a requirement from central government to make these plans. I can\u2019t see\u2014certainly in Part 1\u2014that there will be any funding from central government for those plans. So, again, a comment on that would be useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing down then to (2)(e), we see that we\u2019re \u201Cproviding a financially sustainable model for Watercare\u201D in Auckland Council. Of course, we all know, in this committee, that where there are terrible problems with water services is in the area north of Auckland Council. So how does this bill and how does this purpose help those councils that are not part of Auckland Council and won\u2019t be part of Watercare? That, I think. is also quite a fundamental point. I agree, and I haven\u2019t heard any answers yet from the Minister to Hon Dr Megan Woods\u2019 points about what are those red lines for interventions when central government is going to intervene?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m particularly interested in clause 4, the \u201COverview\u201D, and subclause\u00A0(5)\u2014which is all changed; it\u2019s all underlined\u2014because it is to do with the requirement for Taumata Arowai to not have regard \u201Cto the hierarchy of obligations contained in the National Policy \u2026 for Freshwater Management when making wastewater environmental performance standards.\u201D What I am very interested in\u2014and I raised this in my second reading speech as well\u2014is why this is necessary when section 138 of the Water Services Act doesn\u2019t mention the Resource Management Act (RMA) or any instrument made under the Resource Management Act, such as the national policy statement for freshwater. So why then do we need to specify that something in another piece of legislation, made under a regulation under that, a particular part of that, shouldn\u2019t apply to this other piece of legislation? That really makes no sense to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, also, not only do we have this incongruous situation but there\u2019s a King \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause that goes with it. This will come later in the debate, as well, around Part 5. I\u2019ll signal now that the need for a \u201CKing Henry VIII\u201D clause is outrageous at the best of times. Ministers really need to justify why they would be using that. But they don\u2019t even need to have this clause in the first place, which makes it even more mysterious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMoving on to the \u201CInterpretation\u201D, which is in clause 5. I have a question around the definition of \u201Cprice\u201D, and there is some commentary from the select committee about why this new definition of \u201Cprice\u201D has been included, and it says that it\u2019s related to the Commerce Commission, and there\u2019s some commentary at page 5 of the bill from the select committee report. It would be useful to know if the Minister has an opinion on this definition and if it does just relate to the Commerce Commission or if it goes wider than what the select committee report back refers to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAnother question is about the definition of \u201Curban area\u201D. The definition \u201Cmeans an area identified in a district plan or proposed district plan\u201D, and these are Resource Management Act instruments, district plans and proposed district plans. I wonder whether or not the Minister has considered or would consider an amendment that actually refers specifically to the Resource Management Act, if that would be the normal drafting style when referring to district plans. I\u2019m interested in any advice that he might have on that. Again, of course, this is all useful for the Hansard when people are coming and looking at these definitions of \u201Curban areas\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EFinally, on Part 1, my last question at the moment, is about Schedule 1. Clause 6 is \u201CTransitional, savings, and related provisions\u201D, and Schedule 1 is attached to that, so it\u2019s part of this debate. It is a little bit curious, because it just says, \u201CThere are no transitional, savings, or related provisions in this Act as enacted.\u201D So, again, if it\u2019s the Parliamentary Counsel Office, this might be a style-guide issue or some such. I\u2019m interested to know why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b87a7d1b5fd4be88cc5466a608ed444\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CSome such\u201D. That\u2019s a lawyer\u2019s word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3c04e3f40e44d828f37d1106a6b7498\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m allowed to say \u201Csome such\u201D, Mr Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b62b32ceb4447c09d10b3ed44fc0df9\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Who says \u201Csome such\u201D in 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a7cf18be1048acae49cc9c5a0f858c\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to Mr Court who\u2019s taken offence at \u201Csome such\u201D. I will say it may be because the Parliamentary Counsel Office have some guidance around what happens with schedules when there are, in fact, no transitional, savings, or related provisions and why you need a schedule to say that there are no transitional, savings, or related provisions. Of course, it\u2019s always useful to hear from the Minister as to why there are no transitional provisions as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m particularly interested on commentary around that \u201CPurpose\u201D in terms of local government, the difference between local government as a whole, those councils individually and, also, if there\u2019s any provision for funding from the centre given that we\u2019re talking about \u201Clocalism\u201D, benefit for Northland Taumata Arowai, and why that needs to include a reference to an RMA document, and those questions around the \u201CPurpose\u201D, \u201Curban area\u201D, and Schedule 1. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00229160d8a35ecd407b90eae7aa5d1ed2ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229160d8a35ecd407b90eae7aa5d1ed2ab\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for their questions. There was a question initially around the Watercare provisions. Watercare remains owned by Auckland Council but this, obviously, provides that they have a prohibition for financial support that enables a council-controlled organisation to be financially separate, but it remains owned by the council. So, hopefully, that addresses that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question of \u201Cmust\u201D versus \u201Cmay\u201D, that was a request from councils as part of the select committee process, and so we\u2019re responding to their submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the questions from the Hon Rachel Brooking, and the question around Northland councils being required under this to put forward a water service delivery plan\u2014in terms of intervention thresholds, that\u2019s a question for Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of waste-water standards, it\u2019s a question for Part 5. In terms of the definition around \u201Cprice\u201D, as it says in the report from the select committee, that is the reason why that has been inserted. It is in terms of aligning language with the Commerce Act. In terms of \u201Curban area\u201D, that\u2019s the definition, and it\u2019s a common definition. It can always be amended later via changes to any other legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of Schedule 1, that\u2019s a style guide, apparently. So I have had that question asked on previous legislation, and a Schedule 1 is inserted in order that if changes are made or something happens, then there is a Schedule 1 available for that to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002228e47798222b4b678fc722c5f7ffe4e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228e47798222b4b678fc722c5f7ffe4e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just would like to return to clause 3(2)(b). The Minister of Local Government, when I asked what his red lines would be, said that councils would find it difficult. This is, of course, the language that is already in the bill that we have before us, if I just read 3(2)(b): \u201Cproviding \u2026 the Minister to assist or intervene if territorial authorities find it difficult to prepare a water services delivery plan\u201D. What I\u2019m interested in at this committee stage, while we\u2019re on Part 1 and we are going through the purpose of the legislation, is for the Minister to elaborate to the committee around what \u201Cdifficult\u201D means. I think that we\u2019ve got the word in front of us, \u201Cdifficult\u201D, but no clear direction from the Minister where his red lines are. For example, the regulatory impact statement (RIS) for the bill has got a large section on councils being forced to increase their expenditure and raise rates to address funding challenges, and it goes through there. I mean, \u201Cdifficult\u201D is a relative term, so I\u2019d be keen to understand, in the Minister\u2019s thinking, what does \u201Cdifficult\u201D mean? Is it difficult in terms of funding? Is it difficult in terms of the politics? Is it difficult in terms of the social licence? Where is the Minister\u2019s thinking on this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIf we go through what the RIS does, I think in a very clear way, on page 29 of the regulatory impact statement, it puts a comparison of the proposed rates rises linked to water infrastructure costs and goes through a number of the then long-term plans (LTPs)\u2014understand that a number of councils have made decisions around those LTPs since the publication of the RIS. But if we look at Ashburton council, 11.5 percent rates increases because of the increased cost of needing to account for waters infrastructure. Auckland Council: around 25 percent rates increases. Buller District Council: 31.8 percent rates increases. Clutha District Council: 20 percent for one year. Gisborne: 11.4 percent. Hamilton City Council: 25.5 percent, followed by 14.1 percent for four years. Hutt City Council: 16.9 percent. Wellington City: 13.8 to 15.4 percent rates increases. Then, the RIS helpfully goes through why it is and which particular piece of water infrastructure, because the previous reforms are being repealed\u2014why that is putting more pressure on councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister says that councils will find it difficult, is it these kinds of double-digit rates increases that councils are going to need to impose and are, indeed, as we\u2019ve seen through the latest round of LTPs that councils are imposing on ratepayers? Is that what, in clause 3(2)(b), the Minister has in mind for \u201Cdifficult\u201D, or are there some other kinds of difficult, other than double-digit rates rises that this is imposing on ratepayers around the country? That\u2019s just a small subsection of councils. I\u2019m sure there\u2019s many other regions around the country which members will want to raise through the course of this debate as we get into the night on this legislation, and what that means for ratepayers around the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019m still not clear, and I think this committee deserves to be clear, to know where the Minister\u2019s red lines are. Where does he see the triggers that are laid out in the purpose statement of this clause for abandoning the much-vaunted localism in terms of this waters legislation and instead imposing the will of Wellington in the form of the Minister? If it\u2019s not double-digit rates rises, I\u2019m keen to know what difficult means in clause 3(2)(b). Simply the Minister repeating the words that are already on the page in the legislation I don\u2019t consider adequately addresses the questions that this committee has put to him. There was a very short select committee process for this, and I think this is an issue that this House, in the committee of the whole House stage, needs to fully tease out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002244c38c37e7ae45dc9e0fb86576a20e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244c38c37e7ae45dc9e0fb86576a20e7f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I appreciate the questions from the member. I mean, ultimately, the detail of that and thresholds are in the clauses in Part 2, and that is where that debate will be had in more full.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022883b863471324874bf4246152227c810\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022883b863471324874bf4246152227c810\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m pleased to be speaking to this for the first time, and I\u2019ll begin with Part 1 also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EGiven, Minister, that this legislation is replacing the Water Services Entities Act\u2014or is the beginning of replacing that Act\u2014one question I\u2019ve got is to understand the decisions to exclude certain key things in the purpose of the bill. The purpose of the Water Services Entities Act was to enable long-term sustainable improvements in the safety, quality, resilience, accessibility, affordability, efficiency, and performance of water services and water services infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, there are some very pertinent and important terms captured by that purpose, things that most New Zealanders think would be a good thing to expect of our water service providers. So my question is why would you remove so many of those things, such as the obvious one being safety of water or quality of water in your purpose of the bill, which simply states, \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to establish a framework for local government to manage and deliver water services.\u201D\u2014no reference to safety, to quality, to resilience, to accessibility, affordability. That\u2019s my first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe second question is that glaringly absent from the purpose is any mention of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, which was of course in the Water Services Entities Act, in its purpose, requiring those entities to give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the Treaty of Waitangi, and Te Mana o te Wai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, I understand we will speak about Te Mana o te Wai later, but Te Tiriti o Waitangi is glaringly absent from this legislation. It was one of the points that was raised in submissions by the Pou Taiao Iwi Chairs Forum: \u201CThe bill\u2019s proposals lack any acknowledgment of the Government\u2019s Te Tiriti obligations to iwi and hap\u016B, despite this Government maintaining that it continues to hold the position articulated in the affidavit of the Rt Hon Bill English, which acknowledged that M\u0101ori have rights and interests in water and geothermal resources, and there is no reference at all to iwi and hap\u016B participation in the delivery and decision making in respect of the mechanisms proposed.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt is quite an extraordinary thing to remove any reference to Te Tiriti, given the very significant importance, of water, of wai, to tangata whenua M\u0101ori. I would like the Minister to explain why that has been removed entirely from the purpose of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EFurther down, we see other purposes providing for monitoring and oversight arrangements. We have to understand in the context, and I will speak to this later, of the disaster that happened in the Hawke\u2019s Bay with contamination there, ensuring water services infrastructure is retained in public ownership\u2014I wonder if the Minister can give us an assurance that water services infrastructure will be retained in public ownership, and why that would not be kept or included as a purpose of this new bill, ensuring that water services infrastructure is not operated for the purpose of generating profit for shareholders. That seems to be a thing that most New Zealanders, given that water is a human right, would agree with. I wonder if the Minister can please give an answer as to why he would not keep that as a purpose in this new piece of legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00229c29ea49c5424e318c501fcce047c354\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c29ea49c5424e318c501fcce047c354\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to follow on from my colleague Rachel Brooking\u2019s previous contribution where she had a good look at some of the definitions and some of the quite detailed clauses in Part 1. There\u2019s one particular phrase that has caught my eye, and I\u2019ve looked for a definition of it and I can\u2019t find it, but it\u2019s sitting there in Part 1, in the purpose cause. So I want to direct the Minister\u2019s attention to clause 3(2)(c). The particular phrase that I\u2019m interested in there is \u201Cspecified foundational information\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, \u201Cspecified\u201D is possibly neither here nor there. It\u2019s the sort of phrase I would expect to be defined, because it\u2019s kind of meaningless in itself. So we don\u2019t quite know what \u201Cfoundational\u201D is, and that\u2019s the word that\u2019s doing the work there, so what is this foundational information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ETypically, in order to work that out, we\u2019d just sort of pop through to the definition section of the bill. Sitting in clause 5 is the interpretation, and so I looked for the two obvious phrases, \u201Cspecified foundational information\u201D, and that\u2019s not there. So I looked for \u201Cfoundational information\u201D, and that\u2019s not there either, so there\u2019s a little bit of a mystery as to what that phrase means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, looking further through, because, again, the obvious thing to do is to look for some definition further through in the bill, and without foreshadowing the debate on Part\u00A02, Subpart 3 of Part 2 does talk about foundational information, so I scanned through there to see if I could find some sort of definition there. It may well be that by the time someone has worked all the way through the bill and has gotten to that particular part, they understand what foundational information means. But here it is sitting right up in the preliminary provisions of the bill, where we would expect at least some signalling as to where that foundational information is defined, as to what it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s, I guess, quite a technical little point, but it goes to exactly what my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking was talking about in terms of information sitting there for the benefit of lawyers, for the benefit of law students, so it is sitting there in the Hansard, so that people coming to this bill actually understand what it is trying to achieve and understand the technical detail of it without having to go, as I\u2019ve just had to do, trying to track down little bits and pieces like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EOf course, my particular background is in tax law, and there\u2019s a lot of definitional work that goes on there and I know where to find stuff. Typically, we can find our way through bills, but I could not find that particular definition. I suspect it\u2019s easily fixed. It might just be that I\u2019ve just missed it, because I couldn\u2019t find where it\u2019s defined, but even then, I would expect to see it where that phrase, which is a little bit unusual, first pops up. Again, I think it\u2019s the word \u201Cfoundational\u201D that\u2019s doing the work there. If it was just \u201Cspecified information\u201D, I\u2019d go, \u201COh yeah, whatever.\u201D, but it\u2019s that particular little word, \u201Cfoundational\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI think, if we could have some advice from the Minister or even just saying, \u201CActually, maybe we\u2019d better fix this up and we\u2019ll just find a wee bit of a way of signalling where we\u2019re saying what that foundational information is.\u201D, so that right up the front we can understand the structure of this bill and what it is trying to achieve, I\u2019ll look forward to hearing that from the Minister, or perhaps his officials. It is a somewhat simple question, but, hopefully, there is a simple answer to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c39d0670ed7241f3a6f1f8823083a4f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c39d0670ed7241f3a6f1f8823083a4f1\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the members for their questions. In relation to the member Steve Abel\u2019s questions, there was a range of things which he highlighted as to signalling why they are not in there. In relation to water quality, water safety, there is significant water regulation that Taumata Arowai is responsible for in terms of drinking-water standards. Those provisions which are under, obviously, separate legislation continue to apply to water service providers and so those don\u2019t change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere are questions in relation to the Treaty of Waitangi. Ultimately, councils will still be required to meet any specified obligations that they have under the local government legislation. This doesn\u2019t change any of this. This bill is about a framework for councils to determine how they wish to deliver water services in their communities, and they\u2019ll continue to operate within existing obligations during that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question around foundational information, I found that five minutes of my time leaving me very quickly, but I would just point the member to, potentially, a dictionary for the word \u201Cfoundational\u201D, and another one, a dictionary, for the word \u201Cinformation\u201D, but also there is a Part 2. Again, I\u2019d point the member to Part 2. It goes into a lot more detail around that particular issue and so I\u2019m happy to have further discussion around that question at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a92f8987a94d4a43a548eb56a8e64504\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a92f8987a94d4a43a548eb56a8e64504\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to push the Minister a little bit here. We are in Part 1, where we do have the purpose clause for the legislation, and for the Minister just to say \u201CThat\u2019s the bit we\u2019ll talk about.\u201D, where his red lines are around where it is in terms of ministerial intervention for a council\u2019s inability when they\u2019re finding it \u201Cdifficult\u201D to provide a water services delivery plan\u2014we do need to talk about this in the purpose clause of the bill. This is the part of the legislation where people will go and will want to find some very clear direction from this House, and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s adequate for the Minister to say that he doesn\u2019t need to talk about it under this part. It is very clearly in clause 3(2)(b). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, \u201Cdifficult\u201D\u2014I\u2019d asked the Minister if it was double-digit rates rises that would equal difficulty for the council, and if they\u2019re the kinds of things that would trigger the need for shattering that much-vaunted localism and having ministerial intervention, or whether there was some other thing. One of the things that we heard very clearly through submissions from a number of councils, in particular, was what have been termed orphan concerns, and I wondered if this was one of the difficulties\u2014where there is an orphaned council or a territorial and local authority (TLA) that the Minister would see as being a difficulty under the purpose of the legislation in this clause that would trigger a ministerial intervention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we heard was that under the previous Government\u2019s legislation, obviously, there were 10 water entities, where there was a mix of councils that could come together, and what we heard under the regime that this Government is putting in place is a concern from some councils that they were going to be left on their own\u2014hence the term \u201Corphaned councils\u201D. We heard from the Far North Deputy Mayor, Kelly Stratford, and she told the select committee that none of the models offered by the bill ensured affordability for her district if Auckland was not part of the equation. So how is it that we account for those small councils that are going to be left on their own? Is that the kind of thing that\u2019s going to constitute difficulty? She went on to tell the committee that her district struggled with having enough skilled people to comply with the higher standards that were being legislated in this bill. So how are they going to do that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we saw submitters make a point on\u2014and I think it was a very interesting point and I want to understand how the Minister sees this interacting with clause 3(2)(b)\u2014was that this is set against the Local Government Act and the provisions of the Local Government Act, which encourage councils and territorial and local authorities to focus on their immediate place. It is their job under that piece of legislation to be accountable to the ratepayers of their district, yet this is looking for these voluntary kinds of groupings to come together that will provide that mix so that we don\u2019t get orphaned TLAs. But how does that mesh with the provisions of the TLA and how does it mesh with the purpose statement of this legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think one of the submissions that I was most concerned about\u2014there were many of them\u2014was the submission about how Buller could really be left as an orphaned council. Over three years, the ratepayers in Westport could see water charges rise from $2,300 to over $4,000 in just four years from now, under the provisions that we\u2019ve got in front of us. That\u2019s the kind of cost that the people in Westport would need to bear because of this fear that they would be orphaned and left on their own. As to the idea that councils would band together to spread the costs, we heard from a number of mayors that under the framework that\u2019s been put forward by the Government, that\u2019s just not going to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo the question for the Minister in the chair is to give us some more clarity around what \u201Cdifficult\u201D in clause 3(2)(b) means. Is this what would constitute difficulty\u2014orphaned councils? Is this the type of scenario that would see the Minister come in and force groupings to come together? Is that the kind of thing that he\u2019s seeing in terms of the purpose of the bill, or is he prepared for the residents of places like Westport to face that rise from $2,300 to $4,000 over just four years and for them to absorb those costs? Is that the kind of thing that he sees as difficult and warranting ministerial direction? I\u2019m still unclear, and I think this committee needs to understand that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002281aa3b5d17dd4d4db14db67172d292a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281aa3b5d17dd4d4db14db67172d292a0\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got a question for the Minister. I\u2019ve got a number of questions, actually, relating to Part 1 and the purpose of the bill \u201Cto manage and deliver water services.\u201D, and I\u2019m wondering if he can explain to me, in a number of scenarios, what those words \u201Cmanage\u201D and \u201Cdeliver\u201D mean. My first reference point would be the Clutha District Council, which could quite well be one of those orphaned councils. Originally, the residents of Clutha in my electorate of Taieri were looking at an up-to 20 percent rates increase. The council has opted to do less than that, but that is not going to fix the water problem, so we\u2019re going to end up with a scenario where the councils are trying to keep the rates down to allow quite a senior population to potentially stay in their own homes and yet the water infrastructure will not be fixed, and they will have difficulties and they will be probably very likely orphaned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis has been an absolute headache for the small councils down in the lower South Island, and I\u2019d like to hear what the Minister\u2019s solution is for Clutha, in particular. Would he be requiring it to join forces, say, with Dunedin City Council or with Christchurch City Council, or does he have another scenario? Would there be a bailout, or is this going to be the collapse of that council? Because there is no way that the people of Clutha can afford the rates rises that they would have needed, which would minimum be in the 20s\u2014and we\u2019re looking at the 30s\u2014going forward, if they were to actually manage water infrastructure. And would it be \u201Cdifficult\u201D under the scenario that my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods raised in the previous question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy second one relates to the people in Eastern Bush in Invercargill, where they haven\u2019t had a significant rates rise. It\u2019s only about 10 percent, but they\u2019ve just been issued a three-year boiled water notice. So that\u2019s three years of boiled water because the water is deemed dangerous. There has been no incentive, I guess, for that council either to increase the rates, because the councillors know this is the end of their political life. If there\u2019s not going to be a bailout by the Government, then I don\u2019t know what\u2019s going to happen. But they are looking at three years of boiled water. Is this a difficult situation in the scenario that was raised by my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe third situation is a little bit more complicated and goes to the situation in Auckland. When I look at the purpose of the bill and it talks about managing and delivering water services and then I go to the definition section to see what that includes, it talks about \u201Cstormwater\u201D, and then when I go to the definition of \u201Cstormwater\u201D\u2014this is in the definition section\u2014it refers to streams that could be related to the infrastructure. Now, under the bill as it currently stands, we had a really nimble solution to be able to resolve some of the problems that happened with flooding in Auckland, because what happened was that many properties suffered significant damage and cost as a result of badly managed stormwater systems. There are in fact 3,000 kilometres of streams in Auckland, and the way the law was being applied, prior to the legislation of the Labour Government, was that individual councils could determine whether they required those water systems to be cleaned out or not and who bore the liability; it was really a patchwork.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat happened was we had some very perverse outcomes where some people in Auckland, who, maybe, managed the stream going down by their property, ended up having to face liability for stormwater overflows due to the\u2014I would say\u2014negligence of\u00A0councils or perhaps even the bad behaviour of neighbours, where they had allowed build-up in the streams, and there was no consistent application of the law. What happened under the legislation was that we were able to say, \u201CThis needs to be uniform. There is a duty of care, where it makes sense, on the councils, or they can put homeowners on notice, and if the homeowner doesn\u2019t reasonably clean up the stream, then they will be accountable.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen I look in this repealing legislation, it\u2019s silent on whether, in those scenarios, the streams in Auckland are part of the water infrastructure system and who would bear the liability in that case. The words \u201Crelated to\u201D are quite ambiguous, so I\u2019m keen to know how the Minister would see resolving that and whether he intends to do anything, because if he doesn\u2019t, and this piece of legislation remains silent on it, then that is going to be a real headache, because there will be events. We know that these one-in-100-year events are happening every year. This scenario will come up. We had costs estimated up to $14 billion as a result of weather-related events and storm water and flooding across particularly Hawke\u2019s Bay and Auckland. So that\u2019s not a minor issue that I\u2019m raising. It is technical, but it\u2019s very, very important that we have clarity about what constitutes the stormwater network, what constitutes waterways being related to the infrastructure and where that line is drawn, whether the scenario had even been envisaged, and whether there is going to be certainty for the water entities and for homeowners as to who bears the liability and what the accountability is if they do not keep these streams and rivers clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00224c08a97ba98c4f7a9a8799a579f3c380\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c08a97ba98c4f7a9a8799a579f3c380\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I thank the members for their questions. In terms of the question around the definitions of \u201Cmanage and deliver\u201D,\u00A0ultimately, this is about making it clear that local government is responsible for managing and delivering water services in their community. I know that\u2019s a fundamental change from the last Government\u2019s approach where they consolidated and took the assets\u00A0off local government and imposed their approach on local government. That was rejected resoundingly at the last election. We believe that local government should be responsible for managing and delivering water services, and that is the approach this Government is taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe questions raised by the Hon Megan Woods in relation to the word \u201Cdifficult\u201D\u2014that is in relation to the water services delivery plans, that is not in relation to delivery and managing of water services. As I said, there is in Part 2, obviously, a lot of fulsome criteria around that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222971769dbf3f41d6ae6a6f4107cc9419\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll get to that, but this is the purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e3d277c8ee4764a821b94fd7565110\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and in relation to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222437f91bcb1b48828339012ff03d059a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll have a more fulsome discussion then, but you need to answer about the purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022694e4a3e70c749c796d0d43c717211f2\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: About the purpose, yes. So, in relation to the word \u201Cdifficult\u201D, there may be a range of scenarios in which councils have challenges in relation to putting together a water service delivery plan. As is outlined in Part 2, there are a range of potential interventions or supports that councils can have provided. One of those could be that the council actually even writes to the Government and says, \u201CCan you assist us?\u201D So there is a range of different levels of what that may mean. It is a broad term which is deliberately used, but it is something which\u2014ultimately, our expectation as a Government is that all councils will follow the law and will put forward a water service delivery plan on how they\u2019re going to manage and deliver water services in their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, members have raised a range of potential examples around challenges that councils may face\u2014I\u2019m not going to pre-empt any of that. What we\u2019re saying here, though, is there is a range of tools and mechanisms in place which can be used if there is difficulty. I\u2019m not going to preempt any of that because my expectation is that councils will work effectively and work together to put forward water service delivery plans for their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002218bb4e62b82d4250ad894321ae907159\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218bb4e62b82d4250ad894321ae907159\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question actually goes back to a previous issue that I asked the Minister to address, and it\u00A0might have got lost within the transition between two different Ministers, and it was\u00A0in\u00A0relation to the information that had been redacted within the regulatory impact statement. I was listening hard to understand what it was, and I think the Minister can address it shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe reason why I ask that is because, actually, part of the regulatory impact statement is around what the root causes are that led to this bill. For me, it goes back to purpose clause 3(2)(c), which is around the public disclosure of specified foundational information in relation to delivery of water services. Now, it doesn\u2019t take too much effort, because in the redaction within the regulatory impact statement, they fail to redact footnote 35 on page 28, which references a Newsroom article on 20 February 2024 that \u201CCouncils [are] placed on negative credit watch due to three waters repeal.\u201D So I\u2019ll wait for the Minister to confirm it, whether that particular part that had been redacted was actually around the credit rating of the different councils which are subject to the framework in which this Part 1 sets up. I\u2019ll wait for the Minister to, basically, respond to that shortly\u2014if the Minister would like to, basically, allow the committee, for officials or the Minister to table the advice that has been redacted in those elements of the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe reason being is the failure to table that information\u2014under the Official Information Act\u2014totally contradicts, which is part of the purpose clause in Part 1 of this bill, because it requires the territorial authorities to publicly disclose specified foundational information, which I know we will go through with Part 2, to have a look at a couple of elements of that. But what I don\u2019t understand is: why doesn\u2019t the credit rating information need to be redacted from the regulatory impact statement? It was drafted in March; it is now August. Why can\u2019t that information not be released, given, as well, we know that a number of councils have gone through credit rating assessments. For example, in Porirua, where I live, our council rates are 17 percent as of 1 July\u2014that\u2019s 17\u00A0percent. They have gone through a credit rating assessment with Standard \u0026amp; Poor\u2019s and they received a downgrade in part of their very most recent credit assessment. Again, my assumption is just because,\u00A0based on the footnote that\u2019s in the regulatory impact statement, this does talk about credit watch, and perhaps his officials\u2019 assessments of what councils throughout the country will be under credit watch or have a potential for a downgrade\u2014why can\u2019t that information be tabled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI believe that we will get to the point as part of this bill where that information needs to be disclosed anyway, if that\u2019s the purpose of subclause (c), which requires territorial authorities to publicly disclose specified foundation information. Again, that\u2019s for the purpose of supporting economic regulation. Well, the supporting economic regulation is because you know what the debt limit is of those councils, you know what the credit ratings are, and you know what the risks are. I think that ratepayers\u2014and taxpayers, because, ultimately, they\u2019re two in one sometimes\u2014need to be able to understand: is this what the Minister is intending or Parliament is intending as part of that purpose clause and subsection (c)? That\u2019s the sort of information at a framework level that should be disclosed for ratepayers and taxpayers, in order for them to be able to hold their councils to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s important because this information, unless you ask for it to be released, will remain redacted until somebody else does it through an Official Information Act request, but yet we\u2019re here in the Chamber tonight, we are debating making sure there is foundational information for the purpose of supporting economic regulation. But I think a key part of why this is a problem\u2014the root cause of it\u2014is the analysis that sits under it hasn\u2019t been released. So I\u2019m just really keen to know whether the Minister would consider releasing that information, if, again, I think it is about negative credit watch and assessment of it; if not, I\u2019m just trying to understand at what point would a taxpayer or ratepayer, given that territorial authorities will need to provide foundational information, where can they find that information from in the future, and what sort of information we should be trying to table here to make a considered assessment on behalf of ratepayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022670f5b3afb934070a71c0225f1e9b28f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022670f5b3afb934070a71c0225f1e9b28f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I addressed this question earlier, in relation to these redacted portions, and the answer given was that it\u2019s redacted to preserve confidentiality of credit rating agencies to ensure we do not impact the ability of Auckland Council to gain a credit rating for Watercare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a256921ecb1a4ea7b757f122928f6a06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a256921ecb1a4ea7b757f122928f6a06\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take some more calls but I just want to make a note that the question around \u201Cdifficult\u201D and the question around \u201Cspecified foundational information\u201D, as the Minister has said, is in Part 2. So if the Minister is going to answer that in Part 2, maybe we could have some questions on some different things, and we could return to that in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002218b308af280642e690d1997fb46e85b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218b308af280642e690d1997fb46e85b5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Meitaki maata, Madam Chair. Thank you. Can I thank the Minister of Local Government for his response around the redaction. I wonder whether, though\u2014I mean, it was almost feeling like a sense of d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu; in his other portfolio, transport, there are regulatory impact statements that also have redacted information that we often don\u2019t get some information about. But the Minister, as I understand it, has informed the committee that it\u2019s for reasons of confidentiality. I would be interested in his thoughts\u2014given that\u2019s the first response in that space\u2014about whether there is a weight in favour of, effectively, waving some aspects of the confidentiality, given that this will have significant implications for local communities all around the motu. I think he\u2019s seeking advice around that, so perhaps we\u2019ll get a response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIf I can turn my remaining thoughts to the purpose section, which is clause 3, I do want to touch on clause 3(2)(b), not around the difficulty aspect but around the preparation, and the question to the Minister is: what stage does that preparation relate to? The Minister, I know, comes from a background of local government, like myself. There are many aspects in that particular sector that preparation can sort of entail. Is it around that development phase when a council may seek some support or advice or guidance or help or whatever it might be, whether it be from Government or elsewhere, or is it that there needs to be a well-defined and constructed delivery plan in place and signed off by the council and that\u2019s what triggers that aspect of preparation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: at what stage in a preparation process for those involved in the local government sector would that actually kick in? Is there a requirement for a signed-off delivery plan to actually be on the table of the local government or of the council itself\u2014or, actually, no, can councils engage at a much earlier level because they\u2019re in the process of preparation? The Minister knows, given his background, that there\u2019s a public consultation process. There is a process where elected members may make some of these calls themselves. There is a process where expertise, whether that be within the council organisation or outside of the council organisation, would be brought to the table. Where in the process, at a high level, can councils, basically, effectively, hit that button where they\u2019re saying, \u201CActually, there is a sense of difficulty\u201D, whatever that might mean, and how might they go about it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy other question relates to the purpose clause 3(2)(c). It\u2019s not about the nature of the foundational information, but it is the change that has been suggested by the select committee, which is around the public disclosure of that information and what that actually means. Now, what was originally in the bill was around the provision of the information. OK. That can be very transactional. This is actually taking it to a different level where it\u2019s saying, actually, there would be a requirement on the territorial authorities to disclose that information, but they would have to do it in a public way. So is that just that being on a council\u2019s website, for example, would be sufficient? Or is it actually that there needs to be something further in that space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI have some other questions that relate to my specific area of Palmerston North City Council and the rates rises that have already been announced that flow from that, but I\u2019ll come back to that once the Minister\u2019s had a chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00225ef8836ef40043f0bfe37682b693ade8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ef8836ef40043f0bfe37682b693ade8\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. My question is around clause 5, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, particularly around the definition that has been given for \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D. Now, looking at the commentary, one of the things I noticed is what should be expanded in terms of this definition and what we\u2019ve heard in terms of submissions from local government\u2014oh, firstly, I also want to thank the Minister for so clearly answering my previous two questions. Thank you so much. They were super, super spot on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of what local government has suggested in this case, one of the things that it talked about is integration of the plan, but integration with the existing plans and processes and future development strategy that they\u2019ve had. That then leads to one of the Amendment Papers that my colleague Lan Pham has put forward in terms of adding a subclause (c) to what is \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D. I really implore the Minister to consider this amendment and these additional three things, because these additional three elements that have been touched on in Lan Pham\u2019s Amendment Paper 69 address some of the concerns that have been raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first thing I want to speak on in this case is the fact that, when we\u2019re looking at the existing definition of \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D, it talks about long-term investment and also talks about being financially able to meet the regulatory standards, but what it doesn\u2019t mention is the consideration of debt and future borrowing. I think that is a really, really crucial element of the financial sustainability and financial viability for local government when they are considering the work that they need to undertake for this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second part of the Amendment Paper talks about \u201Caffordability for communities\u201D. This is, again, something that my colleague Steve Abel has mentioned previously in terms of that level of affordability, and, again drawing attention to the regulatory impact statement, paragraph 108 and Table 2 also specify the risk and caution on the increase in rates for that. So that is the second part of that Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe last part, albeit one of the more important elements that haven\u2019t been addressed at all in this \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D definition, is around environmental sustainability\u2014because of the fact that this is also a concern for local government. I won\u2019t mention too much around it, because it has been mentioned in terms of the environmental sustainability that, for example, Auckland faced last year due to the flood. So in terms of the Amendment Paper, I would ask the Minister to seriously consider it, particularly since it does affect Part 2\u2014which I won\u2019t mention, but I will be coming back to it later in terms of clause 8(1)(b)(ii).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIf the Minister could consider those three elements of this Amendment Paper, which are not currently within the definition of \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D\u2014and that is around \u201Cdebt and future borrowing\u201D, \u201Caffordability for communities\u201D, and also \u201Cenvironmental sustainability\u201D\u2014that would be really great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcb4e82457d64157ae50be6963b059d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcb4e82457d64157ae50be6963b059d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to pick up on something the Minister of Local Government said in response to one of the previous speakers. We were worrying about the difficulties, and so on\u2014so I take your point about us going to discuss that further. He said that he\u2019s going to assume that councils can do their job. But I do want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to the regulatory impact statement and to really question that comment that the Minister made, because it runs up against some of the stuff that we were told in the Finance and Expenditure Committee about how many of the councils were going to struggle with some of the requirements. It also runs up against some of the stuff that is sitting in the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESitting in paragraph 30 of the regulatory impact statement, it says that councils are already struggling to fund deferred maintenance and replacement of water services, and they\u2019re facing increasing costs in their operation of their water services. Then, the very next paragraph, paragraph 31, says, \u201CThere are fixed costs associated with delivery of water services that are challenging for councils with very small populations to fund, as councils consider vary considerably in \u2026 size.\u201D So this problem is already signalled loud and clear. I do take the Minister\u2019s point, but I\u2019m also going to say that perhaps some foresight could go a little way here. Then, sitting in paragraph 40 of the regulatory impact statement, it talks about the five root causes that contribute to the persistent systematic problems with the delivery of water infrastructure. In paragraph 40, it offers five root causes\u2014cause (c) is \u201Cvaried decision-making quality\u201D, and cause (d) is \u201Cfunding constraints\u201D. So, with respect, Minister, I find it puzzling that then you could also say that you\u2019re going to assume that councils can do their job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, I take it that councils want to do their job. I know that many of the councils who spoke to us during the select committee process, either as individual councils or via Local Government New Zealand\u2014the people presenting talked about their commitments to their communities, talked about why they were in local government, and talked about how they wanted to do a good job. So everyone wants to do a good job. And I take it that the Minister, of course, would agree with that too\u2014that the locally elected members want to do a good job. The problem is whether or not they are able to do a good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESitting in the regulatory impact statement prepared by the Minister\u2019s officials, which he would have gone through himself and sent on to accompany this bill, there is an absolute contradiction to his statement that he is going to assume that the councils can do their jobs. As I said, there\u2019s a distinction between \u201Cwant\u201D and \u201Ccan\u201D. It goes absolutely to the purpose of this bill\u2014something that, you know, sits right in there about whether or not councils actually can do the job. The funding constraints, the varied decision-making capabilities, the huge contrast between some of our councils\u2014you know, comparing the incredible resources of Auckland to the very small councils like Buller and so on. And we haven\u2019t even talked about the Far North yet so far\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022302c0053f01048f88e5b0ddcac85a88c\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: I mentioned it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f612c0ffecaf47318af05cbb95081460\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you, Rachel Brooking\u2014I hadn\u2019t realised you had done that. So there are real difficulties that councils face. I just want the Minister to comment a little bit more on that assumption that he\u2019s made that councils can actually do their job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022fba2f0c6037040a9975468211e660374\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fba2f0c6037040a9975468211e660374\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The member Tangi Utikere talked about the redactions again. I would just mention this is not my document; this is the Department of Internal Affairs\u2019 document, the regulatory impact statement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b9063a0836545efb67e4cac7beb6104\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re responsible for your commentary on your bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb5badf7292a459f98dca4a9c11f56a6\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, please feel free to put an Official Information Act request in if you wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question around public disclosure, this is, of course, part of the disclosure requirements that are being imposed here around economic regulation and, of course, transparency requirements. And that is why that is being put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAlso, there was a question around, I think, the word \u201Cprepare\u201D. And so this is obviously a thing in terms of clause 3(2)(b): \u201Cprepare a water services delivery plan\u201D. Ultimately, again, Part 2 deals with all of the criteria in relation to those interventions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere was a question from Lawrence Xu-Nan from the Green Party in relation to Amendment Paper 69. The current definition is broad enough to capture these matters. There is a risk that by adding further matters, we limit the application of the definition to identify and assess financial sustainability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAnd the second question he asked around debt talks in there in terms of the words \u201Clong-term investment\u201D, and that obviously requires the consideration around those investments and decisions, and, obviously, debt will play a part in terms of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe questions from the Hon Deborah Russell\u2014effectively, she just outlined the difference between the Opposition\u2019s perspective and our perspective in relation to this entire issue. And her question was: can councils do the job? And that\u2019s why the last Government decided they couldn\u2019t, and so they came in, took away all their assets, put in place these 10 mega - co-governed entities, and, effectively, New Zealanders rejected that at the last election. So we\u2019re putting in place the foundations for councils to be able to manage and to deliver water services in their community. We\u2019re putting in place a regime here which supports them to do that, and it\u2019s something which many councils campaigned for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002295fa08e025f0485d86b389faac8c2982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295fa08e025f0485d86b389faac8c2982\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to move on to clause 3(2)(e)\u2014far be it for me to deal on \u201Cdifficult\u201D. I\u2019d like to thank the Minister of Local Government very much for the answer that he gave to my colleague the Hon Barbara Edmonds about why it was that there\u2019s so many redactions in terms of the questions around the funding constraints. I accept the Minister\u2019s answer that that\u2019s because there are some commercial sensitivities while Auckland Council establishes its credit rating and works through those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the questions I have for the Minister, and I\u2019d be keen to know, is that, of course, credit ratings are something that are continually monitored by the ratings agencies, so, therefore, does the Minister foresee that this information will never be made public, that this isn\u2019t something that we can have some transparency around? I would argue that you could put the argument that you\u2019re continually and perpetually in a state of the credit rating agencies considering commercial sensitivities. So I\u2019m keen to hear from the Minister around that and what his expectations in terms of the public disclosure of that information would be, if that is indeed the rationale that he sees as underpinning the withholding of that information. I think it is important for the committee to understand that, in terms of the expectations going forward, around how much information can be in the public domain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other question I have for the Minister is in terms of the purpose clause, which says very clearly that \u201CThe purpose of the Act is to establish the framework for local government to manage and deliver water services.\u201D and \u201Cdelivers that purpose by\u201D and we go through (a), (b), (c), (d), and (e). But one of the things that I would like to ask the Minister, and it has been noted in commentary on the bill, is that one of the key things that is identified from submitters is actually around how we are going to pay for this. What is not in that purpose clause is\u2014there is nothing about how these new water entities may be funded. The closest we get is the one that I asked about in here, which is clause 3(2)(e), which is \u201Cproviding a financially sustainable model for Watercare to be financially separate from Auckland Council and an interim economic regulation regime for Watercare [and] is administered by a Crown monitor.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s take that up a level, because I think that fundamental issue of how it is that these entities are going to be funded, in other parts of the bill\u2014and I don\u2019t want us to get into bits that we are going to debate far more fulsomely as we proceed through this evening, but at that very purpose clause, why did the Minister not think of including, as part of the purpose of this legislation, one of those core issues that is raised by submitters and that, indeed, I think everybody, including the Minister, accepts is at the crux of this matter: who\u2019s going to pay for it? How is it going to be funded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll get into issues about balance sheet separation and debt ceilings for a number of the entities. They\u2019ll come in different parts of the bill, so I\u2019m not trying to traverse those areas. It\u2019s really that fundamental question that if we\u2019re considering why it is we\u2019re here in this Chamber considering this legislation, having this debate, that very, very core issue is not included. So I\u2019m keen to hear from the Minister on those two things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EGiven that he has cited commercial sensitivities, does he see that there is an end point for those commercial sensitivities, or does he see that the perpetual monitoring by ratings agencies will mean that we can never fully put that information out into the public arena? And, secondly, it\u2019s why, when we\u2019re considering this legislation, we\u2019re not considering the most core issue, I would argue, that lies at the heart of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00223e948ae3e6204cccada130bea9e4baee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e948ae3e6204cccada130bea9e4baee\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In relation to the first question, I have made it very clear that that is in relation to Watercare establishing a credit rating, and this is redacted in order to not prejudice them establishing a credit rating. Once a credit rating is in place, generally those are made publicly available, and there\u2019s obviously processes that go on from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the second question, this is Part 2. There\u2019s obviously further legislation to come to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227a0cc52ace93432e9990ab9764c27cc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a0cc52ace93432e9990ab9764c27cc7\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Here is just a very short question from me, going back to the Minister\u2019s previous contribution in saying that this bill was about supporting councils. I did mention, in my first contribution, that there seems to be some irony here when this Government says that they\u2019re interested in what\u2019s happening at the local level but there\u2019s no funding from the centre. So can the Minister address that question? Is there no funding from the centre? Is this just putting extra workload on to councils? Is that what it\u2019s doing? I would appreciate a clear answer on that. And what does he mean when he says the whole purpose of this bill is to support councils? It\u2019s very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022375f886f86c74f96820c6d3fa6dd228c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022375f886f86c74f96820c6d3fa6dd228c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a very quick follow-up question, and I thank the Minister for his answer and for clarifying that he sees that that is about the credit rating being established and that, following that, there can be disclosure. So what I would like some clarity from the Minister on is when he sees that point being reached. Obviously there\u2019ll be the passage of this bill once it\u2019s passed, but what is his expectation in terms of time frames afterwards? When will he consider that their credit rating is established enough, given the processes that rating agencies go through in terms of monitoring? What is the point where he is satisfied that that is established?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022b422b596c01847a182da9e7b58dada4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b422b596c01847a182da9e7b58dada4d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E That is a matter for Auckland Council, which is going through the process of the financial separation for Watercare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022199f7ec59c914fdda5dc28cfc3ea81eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022199f7ec59c914fdda5dc28cfc3ea81eb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will resume in committee at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.56 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251b4d847944746d8acdd33e138fd71d6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening, members. When we finished, we were debating Part 1 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00225bd9cd4d08c941a389acbcbe5b766a7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bd9cd4d08c941a389acbcbe5b766a7f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I will just very quickly remind the Minister that before the dinner break, he had made the comment that the bill is going to support councils, and we are yet to hear how this bill is going to support councils. Of course, that is important, given that we are on the purpose section of the bill, being clause 3 in Part 1, so I\u2019m very keen to hear a response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd69e263c1814fe0942c125e5767a265\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd69e263c1814fe0942c125e5767a265\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I continue the debate on Part 1 of this particular bill, which we\u2019d been canvassing before the dinner break, which are the preliminary provisions part of this Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill, which I notice had actually had a bit of a title change from what officials had put in the regulatory impact statement that was on the Table, because it was changed from \u201CTransitional\u201D to now \u201CPreliminary Arrangements\u201D. But, having gone through the regulatory impact statement as part of this bill, trying to understand the purpose and the objective of this particular bill which is set out in clause 3 of Part 1, I came across, in the regulatory impact statement, a footnote in relation to a Castalia report, which was from January 2024, Meeting key objectives of Local Water Done Well: Draft report on policy objectives and proposed process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIn reference to the Minister\u2019s previous answer that, if members wanted information, they could Official Information Act request him, I did actually try and have a look for the background papers to this bill to see whether that particular report, which is very much on the policy objectives in the process for this bill, which, again, pertains to clause 3\u2014whether I could find that particular piece of advice from Castalia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EFor those members who are not aware of the affordable water reforms, Castalia was a consultancy group that was used by one of the council groups\u2014I can\u2019t remember the name at the moment, but a group of councils who were objectively against the affordable water reforms. So they had referred a lot to how Castalia had done, basically, a large amount of analysis, basically going through line by line what was called WICS\u2014which is the Water Industry Commission for Scotland\u2014who was actually contracted by the Government of that time to provide, basically, a number as to what this sort of water infrastructure deficit would look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EInterestingly enough, the regulatory impact statement does refer to how WICS said $120\u00A0billion of investment is required over 30 to 40 years to maintain, replace, and upgrade existing assets and enable and provide for needed residential development. The regulatory impact statement quite helpfully goes through also why Castalia, basically, disagreed with the WICS analysis. Interestingly enough, the department and the advice that they provided for the Minister for this particular part of the bill didn\u2019t say that they sided with WICS, but they agreed with the $120 billion price tag for these water reforms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBasically, the $120 billion, for those who are not aware, is, basically, an analysis of how much would need to be spent to get the water infrastructure across the country, across all the different councils, up to scratch. So I found it really interesting, therefore, that later on in the regulatory impact statement, officials actually referred to this draft report on policy objectives. It goes to some of the earlier debates within this committee on this part of the bill around what the purpose of this particular bill is. It is set out in clause 3(2)(a) to 3(2)(e), but my question is for the Minister, because I couldn\u2019t find that draft report online. I couldn\u2019t find it in the proactive release that officials have helpfully done on the Department of Internal Affairs web page. I couldn\u2019t find that particular report, and yet it seems to be such a crucial report, because it was January of this year when it was talking about the policy objectives and the proposed process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo I would like to just have a bit of an understanding from the Minister: what is that report? Did he receive that report from Castalia or is that a report that officials received from Castalia? How did that inform clause 3 of Part 1 of this bill? If so, why has that not been\u2014and the Minister might not be able to answer this\u2014released? Or, actually, can he point to where I can find it online\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9bf3224418248d3a1c928f671a35629\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Or table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022545153e98b5e4ec6a3cd94c405357c03\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or table it, because for me, I\u2019m trying to understand why an independent consultant would provide a draft report to either officials or the Minister in January of 2024 around the policy objectives of these particular changes which pertain to this bill, and just basically, for transparency\u2019s sake, where we can find this so we can have a look at the analysis and then compare what the policy proposals were that were put forward to the Minister, and then how that compares to Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5bb1098e2e945928446b83c5d728be5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5bb1098e2e945928446b83c5d728be5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Following on from my colleague the Hon Barbara Edmonds, of course, we\u2019re in Part 1 of this bill, the preliminary arrangements, defining the terms used in the bill and the bill\u2019s contents. I think that\u2019s one of the important things that Part 1 of this bill does; it really summarises what is in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EConnected to the contribution and the questions that my colleague Barbara Edmonds has just asked, my question is really about paragraph 167 in the regulatory impact statement of the bill, which talks about \u201CDue to timeframes, it was not possible for the Department to complete a full analysis of the costs and benefits of the four proposals beyond qualitative [assessments]. They should be considered as indicative only.\u201D So my questions for the Minister are: why are we galloping ahead when we\u2019ve only got indicative costings? We know that, in terms of what we\u2019re doing here, the rubber is really going to meet the road when it comes to who\u2019s going to pay for what and how much it is going to cost. I think this is the right part of the bill for us to be asking these very overarching questions of the Minister, given that this is the part of the bill that contains the summary of everything that is in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat I would like to know is whether, in the Castalia report that the Hon Barbara Edmonds referred to, there is anything in there that attempts to move beyond those qualitative assessments? Are we getting down and into any quantitative analysis of the various options in terms of what is set out in terms of what the bill is seeking to achieve? I think it\u2019s really important for this committee to know what information exists before we move beyond the purpose in terms of the quantitative work that has been done and whether we have the ability to move beyond the indicative costings, because when we get into the more substantive parts of this legislation, as I\u2019m sure you\u2019ll appreciate, Mr Chair, there are going to be a lot of questions about particular councils, about particular costings, so for the Minister to give the committee an update on exactly what information is there in terms of both quantitative and qualitative analysis of the costings, I would be interested to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00227f64351e9e934423a935b4fdf65a3746\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f64351e9e934423a935b4fdf65a3746\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I appreciate the questions from members. The key question here following the dinner break is in regards to this Castalia report, which is referred to in relation to this part. The Castalia report was commissioned by the department. I haven\u2019t received a copy of it. Castalia also provided advice to councils on modelling as councils did not agree with\u00A0the\u00A0efficiency assumptions in the Water Industry Commission for Scotland modelling. The previous Government\u2019s modelling used a top-down methodology which estimated that some amount between $120 billion and $185 billion would be required at a national level to maintain and improve water infrastructure. Current long-term plans estimate $41 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe point in this bill, which I think is an important point to go back to, is that this bill is around establishing a framework for local government to manage and deliver water services. It will require the territorial authority to prepare water service delivery plans. It\u2019s a bottom-up exercise to understand what is actually needing to be done from local government\u2019s perspective, working upwards, rather than what the previous Government was doing, which was saying, \u201CThis is what we think.\u201D, and pushing it downwards and then taking all those assets away from local communities and the ownership and forcing on local councils their own mandated, co-governed model. We are taking a fundamentally different approach through this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227aded4361d684924a5abf2281fa160f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227aded4361d684924a5abf2281fa160f1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a real pleasure to take a call on this really important bill, the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill, and it\u2019s something that I had an interest in in the previous Government, because the legislation there took an approach which saw not only an objective of regulatory compliance\u2014that is freshwater standards and so on\u2014but\u00A0also had a whole framework around quality and price standards as well. So, in terms of looking at the purposes of the bill, which, essentially, seem to be structural purposes, to get a framework for delivery of water, I\u2019m wondering why, in there, there\u2019s nothing about\u00A0the consumer. There\u2019s nothing about the purpose of the bill being to deliver water\u00A0services to the consumer at a price and a quality which is appropriate. And, in particular, in tying that into the definitions section there as well, I see that one of the key definitions is \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D. And \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D, essentially, is defined to mean that they\u2019ve got enough money to meet their regulatory thresholds. But, again, in doing that, there\u2019s no real identification of the need to meet quality and price standards for the consumer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, quality standards aren\u2019t just \u201Cthe water doesn\u2019t make me sick\u201D; it\u2019s that the water is there consistently and that there\u2019s not outages. And, of course, the price standard is also not just \u201CI want it cheap\u201D; it\u2019s a price standard which is reasonable given the costs of the infrastructure, the long-term costs, the ability of the consumer to pay, and all of those things going in. In terms of infrastructure like this, we\u2019ve got models\u2014airports are one example\u2014where pricing structures are regulated in terms of the long-term cost of infrastructure. I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister where in terms of the, if you like, hierarchy\u2014to use words from another legislative framework\u2014does the consumer sit in this? At the moment, just on a first reading of the purpose clause and just on its words, it seems to say the consumer isn\u2019t really relevant to this piece of legislation. \u201CConsumer\u201D is a defined term. So they sit there somewhere. In clause 5, \u201Cconsumer means a person who consumes, uses, acquires, or is provided with, water services\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other consumers\u2014and I know that my colleague Mr Bayly would be interested in this, because he had something to say about this\u2014may also include future consumers, which might be developers who want to develop an area of land and want water connections. Now, where do they sit in that? Because that\u2019s, in terms of water being a critical part of infrastructure to unlock land for housing and industrial and commercial development, a really important point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo my question is twofold. On the definition \u201CFinancially sustainable\u201D, why is there no reference to the provision of water at a price and quality that is appropriate? And, in terms of purpose, why is there nothing in the purpose clause which talks about protecting the interests and entitlements of the consumers of water services? Perhaps clause 3(2)(b) is when we\u2019re talking about \u201Cconsumers\u201D as defined. Do we include consumers who might be future consumers, people who might want to connect to the water network in the future? Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00222db3be79730346a598189863fcf03336\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222db3be79730346a598189863fcf03336\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2702369021f44e791057a268767a6d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2702369021f44e791057a268767a6d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a very specific question for the Minister in relation to an answer that he has given in the Chamber. I appreciate that what the Minister said in terms of the lack of moving beyond qualitative and indicative costings is because it\u2019s the desire of the Government to build a bottom-up approach, working with councils to get a sense of what the costings would be. But I\u2019d just like to hear from the Minister about how that approach will work if clause 3(2)(b) is implemented and the Minister intervenes because he\u2019s not satisfied with the water service delivery plan. How will it work when there aren\u2019t any more detailed costings and these have moved beyond indicative, if that 3(2)(b) is instituted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002250acdd59a7a04ac2b475043b5e6703b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250acdd59a7a04ac2b475043b5e6703b7\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for their questions. In relation to the Hon Duncan Webb\u2019s questions, the issues around price, quality, affordability, and the regulatory framework are all good questions. There are three parts to our water reforms. This is the second piece of legislation. There is a third piece of legislation which will come and which will include a number of those particular elements, and this puts in place the start of the initial regulatory framework. I\u2019d also make the point, though, that the purpose of this Act is to establish a framework for local government to manage and deliver water services. That is the purpose of this Act. It\u2019s around the water service delivery plans, it\u2019s around the council-controlled organisation opportunities, and it\u2019s around Watercare. That\u2019s the purpose of this particular legislation. There is further legislation to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Hon Megan Woods\u2019 question there, ultimately, the process is around the use of the powers which are envisaged through 3(2)(b) within Part 2 of the bill and in terms of the process, but it doesn\u2019t change the fundamentals in terms of the water service delivery plan needing to be prepared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u002282d05847cfdc49e289a75b4c137aced2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282d05847cfdc49e289a75b4c137aced2\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m looking at the purpose of the bill in Part 1, and I appreciate the Minister earlier answered my question about water safety, though I don\u2019t feel entirely confident that taking mention of safety as a purpose is the best way to approach it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe Minister suggests that that is a bottom-up approach to not put those things as overarching objectives. What it made me consider, looking at the regulatory impact statement, was: what was the background to these reviews of the way that our water is done? Of course, it was in 2017 that the National-led Government first established the three waters review to assess whether local government practices and systems and oversight relating to water services and infrastructure were fit for purpose. We had the Havelock North event occur, which was a major influencer of the determination to set up Taumata Arowai, the water services regulator, and let\u2019s not forget that event caused the death of four people, the hospitalisation of over 40 people, and made 5,000 people ill. So the prioritisation of water safety became starkly evident as important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EGiven we have 67 councils operating water services across New Zealand for around 85 percent of the population, the challenges of having real clarity in the expectations of those water providers are great. Now, that water review was continued by the Labour Government, who, of course\u2014when they came to power with New Zealand First and the Green Party in 2017\u2014put in place three waters. We understand this Government has removed three waters and this is, essentially, the replacement for it\u2014part two of that replacement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI wanted to point out to the Minister and ask him why, in the purpose of this new regulatory system, the four key things that were outlined as part of the three waters reform programme were \u201Csafe, reliable drinking water;\u201D, which was number one; \u201Cbetter environmental performance of wastewater and stormwater services;\u201D, which is not mentioned in the purpose of this new Act; and \u201Cefficient, sustainable, resilient and accountable multi-regional water and [sewerage] services; and making it affordable for future generations.\u201D, as my colleague from Labour has just been speaking about. None of these things are mentioned as purposes of the Act. Yet, as I would state again, water safety seems to be of the utmost priority when it comes to the provision of drinking water, in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EEarlier I had asked you, Minister, to answer questions as to ensuring water services infrastructure is retained in public ownership. I\u2019d appreciate an answer as to what guarantees the Government is making that they will retain the water services in public ownership and that they will ensure that water services infrastructure is not operated for the purpose of generating profit for shareholders. Again, I would appreciate an answer to that because that\u2019s an obvious impact on the affordability of water, which is a basic human right\u2014access to safe drinking water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EFinally, in part three of your intended regime of change to the water regulatory system, the intention is, according to the regulatory impact statement, to \u201Camend the legislation providing for Taumata Arowai\u2019s\u201D\u2014which you sheet back all responsibility for ensuring safety of water\u2014\u201Cregulation of water services, which could include amendments to the threshold for regulated suppliers;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI would love clarification as to what that refers to and why exactly it is not optimal in this legislation to place safety and reliable drinking water as a purpose of this overarching Act for our drinking water and all our water services. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002284c37de71e0246c7be4ce7062567724c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284c37de71e0246c7be4ce7062567724c\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022131d7f8ade384b749984e1bacd08f7be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022131d7f8ade384b749984e1bacd08f7be\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have just a question, really, of the response that the Minister gave previously to my question\u2014and thank you very much for clarifying with his officials that that Castalia report was not a briefing that he had seen but was actually one that officials had instigated off their own and must have clearly been part of this bill because, again, we\u2019re going through the purpose clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe Minister talked about looking from the bottom up, rather than the top down, but this is where my confusion sits, because in the regulatory impact statement (RIS), officials have used the $120\u00A0billion tab minimum\u2014minimum\u2014based on the Water Industry Commission of Scotland\u2019s (WICS) analysis. They had actually set out quite nicely, in pages 23 and 24 of the RIS, why Castalia\u2014which was, basically, at the time, the group that was representing a group of councils\u2014believed that the WICS analysis wasn\u2019t robust enough. They basically said WICS was too much\u2014it was overestimating it\u2014and they had set out a number of reasons as to why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EFor example, they argued that Auckland\u2019s Watercare had an estimated 1.6 times more investment than needed; Waimakariri District Council, four times more investment than needed; Hastings District Council, more than 4.5 times more investment than needed. This is where the confusion for me sits with the Minister\u2019s response\u2014he said top-up, not top-down. However, the WICS analysis, which was used as part of the previous Government\u2019s reforms, had actually sought the information from every single local council in order to come up with that particular $120 billion minimum figure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI can show that to the Minister. I mean, it\u2019s right here in the regulatory impact statement. Again, there was a whole lot of data and analysis that underpinned that $120 billion figure. So I just want to get some clarification from the Minister, given that his officials are now using advice that they instigated, which is not of his instruction. They\u2019re using advice from a consultancy group in order to help them develop the purpose of this clause, the objectives of this particular framework, which we are, basically, testing tonight. However, it also goes to show, though, that this particular consultancy group did not agree with the previous Government\u2019s analysis, which was based off the Water Industry Commission of Scotland\u2019s\u2014or WICS\u2019s\u2014analysis, which came up with the minimum $120 billion figure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just trying to understand, because that $120 billion figure came from information from councils. I know we will go through it as part of a different part of the bill\u2014we will talk about those water service delivery plans and what\u2019s the type of information that the Minister will be expecting from that and what the Department of Internal Affairs will be expecting from that. But I\u2019m just trying to understand. Have I missed that alignment where, basically, both different sets of advice stand on their different merits? However, for the purposes of being able to put a price tag around this whole framework, which is dealing with water infrastructure, that you\u2019ve landed on, $120 billion as a minimum\u2014thank you to my colleague Rachel Brooking\u2014I wonder whether you still think that that $120 billion figure is still robust, given that that information came directly from councils in order for them to get the analysis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIs there a bit of a gap missing there, and is this why you\u2019re going to do the framework later? I\u2019m just trying to understand that now so that when we get to that next part where we will drill into the water service delivery plans, we will try to understand whether there are actually more gaps than actually what the framework of this bill sets up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00221beab27ae8a04b898f5f2bb16ca4baa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221beab27ae8a04b898f5f2bb16ca4baa7\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. A couple of quick responses to those questions. Steve Abel raised a number of questions\u2014I\u2019ve already answered many of those questions. One was in regards to the definition of \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D in relation to one of his colleague\u2019s earlier questions, which was that there was a tabled amendment relating to that. The question, though\u2014which I didn\u2019t answer before\u2014was in regards to public ownership. The purpose of the Act is to establish a framework for the local government to manage and deliver water services. I think it\u2019s clear in the intent that this legislation is not about privatisation of water infrastructure. It\u2019s very clearly about local ownership and control and management and delivery, and that\u2019s very clear in the wording that we have determined and used in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to some of the other questions he raised around water quality, we have Taumata Arowai, who are the water-quality regulator. All of the requirements that they have in place around water-quality regulation stay. This is a framework for local government to manage and deliver water services. About the management and the water and the delivery, though, they have to meet those standards we put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the questions by Barbara Edmonds around the modelling, the key point I\u2019d make in response is: this is about a framework. It requires water service delivery plans to be put in place that will identify, at a local level, what those costs are, what\u2019s required to meet the infrastructure growth, and how that can be addressed. That\u2019s the purpose of these. Rather than coming in from a top-down perspective, which is what the last Government did, we\u2019re taking a bottom-up. These water service delivery plans will play a key role in doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022adbc4d91f9f442838a761b0305ea2be4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adbc4d91f9f442838a761b0305ea2be4\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00227468dd11f80b41b89e6ad8f6e1a9cf9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227468dd11f80b41b89e6ad8f6e1a9cf9f\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. I\u2019m very happy to be able to raise some questions and make a short contribution in Part 1 of this bill. I specifically want to raise an issue of a very unique part of my constituency, the Rongotai electorate, which is the Chatham Islands. The Chatham Islands is New Zealand\u2019s smallest and most isolated council and faces a number of unique challenges when it comes to the provision of water services. The council is, as I\u2019m sure the Minister is aware\u2014I mean, the population of the Chatham Islands is around 700 people. They provide three-water services to some residents, not all residents\u2014the majority being drinking water and wastewater; there\u2019s very little need for stormwater. However, the council has significant funding challenges to be financially sustainable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, my question is different to the reference to the tabled amendment of my colleague and the questions around \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D. But I do have a question around the definition of \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D in clause 5 because, as the Chatham Islands Council raised in its submission at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, there is not sufficient clarity on how that will be judged in practice. Is the Minister able to enlighten us, perhaps with reference to the specific circumstances of the rural population on the Chatham Islands, whether the council\u2014how their financial sustainability will be judged? Because the council has had a practice for many decades\u2014and I\u2019m sure this is not unique, because many councils have faced this\u2014of deferring capital investment in order to make their services affordable. But that is not sustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ECouncil cannot borrow, as it has no ability to service the debt. It would probably need central government to be able to borrow. They said in their submission that there were many years\u2014potentially decades\u2014of deferred investment. So they\u2019ve deferred critical renewals, all capital works, in order for services to be affordable and financial sustainable. However, you can only do that for so long, obviously. We all know that. We can only defer capital investment and critical upgrades for a certain amount of time before that becomes untenable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe capital infrastructure in the Chatham Islands is at or near the end of its useful life, and there\u2019s a really high risk of existing infrastructure failing and causing significant negative health outcomes for the people of the Chatham Islands. So I\u2019m just really interested as to whether\u2014when we look at the definition of \u201Cfinancial sustainability\u201D and how that\u2019s going to be judged, obviously they need revenue applied to the delivery of the services. It has to be sufficient to ensure the authority\u2019s long-term investment, and it\u2019s got to be financially sustainable, but currently they cannot rely on rates to cover the cost of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ERates are already contributing to about 40 percent of the operating budget, but that can\u2019t service debt. It\u2019s not going to enable them to invest in capital infrastructure that is absolutely necessary. And, you know, 60 percent of the cost is covered by the Crown grant to the Chatham Islands for operating those services. So how will they be judged as financially sustainable? Is the Government going to have a mechanism or some commitment to funding capital works for communities like the Chatham Islands who have unique rural populations and who face significant challenges in funding these critical upgrades? Does the Minister have a specific answer to that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00225efffeaa8ac54486ad5db0bb07701a90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225efffeaa8ac54486ad5db0bb07701a90\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her question. The question is in relation to the definition of \u201Cfinancially sustainable\u201D. It\u2019s a definition which is a broad definition to encompass a wide range of councils in New Zealand, and this legislation requires all councils to put forward their water service delivery plans, which, of course, includes the Chatham Islands, which will be required under the legislation to also be putting forward a plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022967f3be396e9439f8b2c4f7c8de5a821\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022967f3be396e9439f8b2c4f7c8de5a821\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c8b0e257f5f14e669fb0c2328d689fa3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4b79ae2d54a4dff85f7b41ad3b363d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4b79ae2d54a4dff85f7b41ad3b363d8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 65 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab64079b01994181b654dc1b57cd3c7a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec97a1c5458a4bf4984470c0e4655fd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec97a1c5458a4bf4984470c0e4655fd0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s amendments to clause 5 set out on Amendment Paper 69 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d8c7522105fd415a898475175ae6d916\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ee32a5996e2e4a259cb72ec4f105ead6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002219076197dcb44e5c90befee40c8ee8dc\u0022\u003EPart 2  Water services delivery plans and foundational information disclosure requirements \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcd2c42e1a63472fa5ee6e6ca242fc9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcd2c42e1a63472fa5ee6e6ca242fc9d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 8 to 46B, \u201CWater services delivery plans and foundational information disclosure requirements\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcf9240f45644cb5b37d9e0686c68d07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcf9240f45644cb5b37d9e0686c68d07\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Part 2 is in relation to water service delivery plans and foundational information disclosure. There are three subparts to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe first subpart is in regards to water service delivery plans which are required to be repaired by local authorities\u2014they\u2019re required to prepare one and submit one. The water service delivery plan will outline the council\u2019s position in terms of its assets, its needs, and its financial position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESubpart 2 is in regards to ministerial powers in relation to water service delivery plans. It provides ministerial powers in relation to these plans, and this is a point that has been already traversed, to some extent, in the first part of this debate. This is in relation to where there\u2019s a range of circumstances where local authorities may find challenges in terms of preparing them, and this provides some powers in relation to supporting councils through that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe reason for that is, effectively, to ensure that councils do have the support, and if there is difficulty there are intervention powers available, but, ultimately, these are backstops\u2014with the intention of this legislation for councils to be able to work together putting forward these delivery plans for their local communities as they own, manage, and deliver water services in their community, and to demonstrate how they will be financially sustainable in doing so whilst meeting the regulatory requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESubpart 3 includes foundational information disclosure requirements and sets out a framework for specified entities to disclose foundational information for the purposes of economic regulation. It also includes provisions relating to information sharing and enforcement, and this is a really important part because this is the beginning of economic regulation for water infrastructure in New Zealand. There\u2019ll be more; the Government will have more to say about this in terms of the next piece of legislation which will bring in further economic regulation. This is about ensuring that councils are providing water infrastructure in the most cost-efficient, effective, and efficient manner possible for those consumers who utilise those services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo there is a number of key elements to it, but, fundamentally, this is the key part of this bill. It delivers the key elements to allow councils to move forward with the ownership, management, and delivery in a financially sustainable way of their water infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f69ddc907e7c40319fb5879f1f09bc78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f69ddc907e7c40319fb5879f1f09bc78\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman, and it\u2019s good to take a first call in what is the most substantive part of this legislation. As the Minister has identified, this Part 2 is divided into three subparts\u2014and, by and large, for the purposes of this committee stage debate, the Labour Party intends to address this subpart by subpart, in this Part 2 of the bill. So we have a number of questions in the first subpart of this, which is clauses 8 to 15 of the bill, and that is where the obligations for councils to prepare those plans is outlined and it lists the specific information that must be included in each plan, plans that must cover a consecutive 10-year period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, one of the questions that we have for the Minister here is around the time frames for preparation of these plans. One of the things we heard very clearly from a raft of submitters at committee was that 12 months was simply not enough time, and a number of councils submitted that they needed longer\u201418 months or two years\u2014in order to do this correctly. I would like to hear from the Minister what the rationale was for not including a longer time frame for the preparation of those plans. I think this came through consistently, and members hearing those submissions certainly heard that very clearly. So that\u2019s the first of a range of questions that we\u2019ll be putting to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other is around the part in this first subpart which makes the provision for two or more councils that can work together to submit plans that convey an intention to jointly deliver financially sustainable water services across the combined areas of the councils. Joint plans must explain how all councils will deliver water services, and councils have discretion whether to provide some or all of the stormwater services jointly. This really is the opt-in part of this legislation, which is contained within this first subpart of Part 2, and I think one of the things that we intimated in the debate around Part 1 of the bill that we\u2019d like to raise more fully and have a fuller discussion about in this Part 2 is what happens to orphaned councils. We heard from a number of councils that with an opt-in arrangement they are going to be left on their own.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI intimated that I wanted to talk more fully about Buller and the submission that we heard from Buller in the Finance and Expenditure Committee hearing. What we heard there from the mayor, Jamie Cleine, was that Buller was going to be left orphaned, that they\u2019d asked the councils around them, including over in Canterbury, and no one was really interested in submitting a joint plan for them. What this would mean for Buller\u2014Mr Chairman, I\u2019m sure you have an interest in this\u2014is that water charges would rise from $2,300 to over $4,000 in only the space of four years. So within four years, people living in Westport would be facing $4,000 worth of water charges because they didn\u2019t have that ability to join forces with another council. What I\u2019d like to know from the Minister is what is going to happen for these councils where we are going to see such rapid increases like that that the optimum provision isn\u2019t going to work for them. What we heard very clearly from the mayor there was that the average household income in Buller is almost 30 percent lower than the national average, that 30 percent of the population was aged over 65, and more were on fixed incomes\u2014and the national average is 16 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis bill that we have here has no requirement, when putting together these water services plans, around affordability, so what are we going to do for communities like Buller, which already, we know, has some of the lowest incomes in the country? We have a far greater proportion of people who are aged over 65 and are reliant on superannuation, but are going to see some of the steepest increases. What are the provisions around affordability, in this voluntary model that is outlined in this Subpart 1 that the Minister is putting up? I\u2019m sure colleagues will talk to other parts of the country that are going to have similar circumstances. We know that there\u2019s some very steep increases coming and being signalled by councils, right around the country, of what\u2019s going to happen to rates in order to finance this. But how, when putting together water services plans, are councils going to consider the affordability of their constituents and their ratepayers? And how are they going to consider those very core issues around that? One of the things that that Mr Cleine made very clear is that although, you know, there\u2019s all this encouragement to join forces, it\u2019s just not forthcoming. So what is the Minister going to do in that case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other question I\u2019d like to put to the Minister is around how these orphaned councils draw up these water services delivery plans. Are they going to be considered under clause\u2014you know my obsession with clause 3(2)(b), about whether or not that is a difficulty, the fact that they are not affordable? Will the Minister say that is in some ways difficult, and will that be a red line? If we\u2019re seeing people who are facing an increase in their water bills from $2,300 to $4,000 over a space of only four years, is that enough to trigger the Minister to think that it\u2019s difficult? And will that trigger locals\u2019 ability to have their own water services delivery plan? Indeed, it will be the Minister\u2019s and central government\u2019s water delivery plan that will be delivered there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a range of questions in there. There will be many more that come, because this is the substantive part of the legislation, but we look forward to the Minister addressing those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022efeecfe301b944558ea2b3c39c662f5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efeecfe301b944558ea2b3c39c662f5d\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to follow my colleagues in sticking very specifically to Part 2, Subpart 1, and I want to pick up on an amendment that I\u2019ve tabled, which is specifically related to both clause 11 and clause 13, and it\u2019s Amendment Paper 68. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, the reason that I\u2019ve tabled this is for two really key reasons. The first is around suggesting a change to the time frame of the period of time that the water service development plan actually needs to adhere to. So currently in the Act, it says that they have to be a minimum of 10 years, which does allow for longer-term planning\u2014which is great\u2014but it doesn\u2019t mandate it. That\u2019s a concern, and I\u2019m really interested to hear the Minister\u2019s views on this, because it almost feels unnecessary to talk about how important climate impacts are when it comes to our nation\u2019s infrastructure. But, time and time again, when legislation like this is coming through, it seems we\u2019re not quite grasping the absolute immediacy and necessity of actually providing for a more long-term view, especially when it comes to investment in hard infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe know that the replacement value of our local government infrastructure that is exposed to the impacts of climate change is in the billions, and that\u2019s just the replacement value. That\u2019s not actually an improvement in infrastructure that means that we can actually face the climatic impacts and changes that we know are coming. So the first part of my amendment is to clause 11(1). After subclause (1), it\u2019s inserting a mandatory part that actually requires councils to put in their \u201Cinformation regarding climate change adaptation and mitigation [as far] as they relate to the delivery of water services:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, why that\u2019s really important is this\u2014and we heard it time and time again during submissions, particularly from the likes of Taituar\u0101, which is the local government planning professionals. I want to quote from them because they summed it up so nicely by saying, \u201CWe submit that a ten-year outlook is far too short a period to make informed judgements \u2026 Although long-term plans have a minimum planning horizon of ten years, they are also subject to a test of financial prudent that applies across the useful life of assets\u201D, and that\u2019s what is absolutely key here. We know that the useful life of these assets is outside of that 10-year period. It\u2019s at least 30, if not 40, if not 50 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ETaituar\u0101 asked the committee\u2014again, I\u2019m quoting\u2014\u201Cto consider matters such as climate change.\u201D They want these things to be mandatory so that councils are not stuck in this under-investment spiral where they are actually making decisions that are not in the best interests for the long term for their community. They said that \u201CMeeting future resource consent conditions is an issue in some local authorities now, even more local authorities will face this towards the end of, and just outside the ten-year period.\u201D So they\u2019re talking about how frustrating it is that we\u2019re making this legislation to purportedly address this very serious infrastructure deficit, and yet we\u2019re not giving the very clear, mandatory consideration when it comes to a longer-term time frame and also climate considerations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI did want to pick up, as well, on Wellington and Horowhenua\u2019s joint council submission, because they are one of the regions which has actually come quite far in trying to wrestle with their own water service delivery challenges and have come up with some opportunities. Now, they too\u2014like all other councils, might I add\u2014had this very clear submission that they wanted their water services delivery plan to be a 30-year minimum. Now, they said, \u201CThese include network renewal, regulatory requirements, resilience, climate change, enabling growth and improving the health and quality of waterways. It is only over this longer-term period that these issues can be addressed\u201D, and I\u2019d love to hear the Minister\u2019s view on hearing that from local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002211c411134c5f4261b10dc3f06e4126bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211c411134c5f4261b10dc3f06e4126bd\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call. It\u2019s the first opportunity I\u2019ve had to take a call on this important piece of legislation that we are scrutinising tonight and seeking responses on from the Minister of Local Government. I will just note that I intend to keep my commentary to Part 2, Subpart 1, around water services delivery plans, just quite succinctly so that we can focus on the first part of Part 2. So I am looking forward to hearing some responses from the Minister on the questions that have already been raised. I\u2019ve got three matters that I do wish to speak to, and I recognise I may not have time to cover all three of those matters, noting that if need be, I\u2019ll seek to make a further call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThere have been submissions from councils but also just observations from colleagues around the development of the water services delivery plans and the resourcing in order to do that. An important matter that I\u2019d like to get a response from the Minister on tonight, if I may, is that councils are under significant strain. As chair of the Governance and Administration Committee, we hear regularly from Taituar\u0101, who are the representatives of the staff in local government organisations. We hear from Local Government New Zealand; we hear from the Department of Internal Affairs, through the scrutiny process but also on other matters, and while we didn\u2019t hear this legislation, what we do hear from them is that local government is under significant strain. It has been for some time, and the concern that councils and those involved in the delivery of water services raised is that we are asking, over a 12-month time frame, for councils to develop a water services delivery plan, and this is off the back of a number of years of involvement in water reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ECouncils have been working on this for a long time, but we\u2019re asking them to do these plans again, yet there\u2019s no resourcing being provided to councils to do that. We hear from councils that they\u2019re often struggling to retain some of their qualified staff. They\u2019re often competing with the Public Service; they\u2019re often competing with the private sector for people who actually have the capability to do this work. So the concern from councils, and it\u2019s valid, is: where is the money coming from, from central government, in order to provide that support? You know, the Government during the election campaign was insinuating that there would be support for councils, financial support, in these matters, but yet when it comes to the very first piece of work we\u2019re asking councils to do, there is nothing forthcoming. So that\u2019s my first question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe second matter I just wish to bring to the attention of the Minister, if we look at clause 11(1) (da)(i) and (ii)\u2014and so this is on page 15 of the bill, for those reading along\u2014I have submitted an amendment, which is now on the Table tonight, to add, to this clause, clause 11(1)(da)(iii) and to insert the time frame for how the anticipated or proposed model or arrangements provided under paragraph (j) will be made compliant. My reading of this clause\u2014and I recognise that there are other references in other parts of the bill to time frames for the delivery of the whole water services plan, but this particular clause speaks to water services that don\u2019t comply with current regulatory requirements or will not comply with any anticipated future regulatory requirements. It asks that the water services plan includes the \u201Cdescription of the non-compliance; and\u2014(ii) a description of how the anticipated or proposed model or arrangements provided under paragraph (j) will assist to ensure water services will comply\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EMy addition is the time frame for that, because I think that ratepayers and consumers need clarity of time frame. If there is a water service in a territorial authority that is non-compliant, I think the water services delivery plan needs to be explicit that this particular model is going to be made compliant within six months or within five years or within whatever time frame is needed to ensure that that water is made safe and compliant. I think that that would be a useful addition to have in the bill, and I hope that the Minister will take that under some serious consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI just note before I finish that I will have some further questions to ask, particularly around joint arrangements of council, which is quite relevant to my area of Te Tau Ihu in the top of the South. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220685f0bdab8b4e528ada8b6ca895f320\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220685f0bdab8b4e528ada8b6ca895f320\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. A number of questions here in relation to Part 2. The Hon Megan Woods asked the question around why one year rather than two years in order to do these plans. Councils should be able to prepare plans in 12 months, as they will use long-term plan (LTP) data. Of course, they\u2019ve just recently gone through the process of setting their LTPs, and many councils want to get on with these new arrangements. If councils are struggling with their plans, they can ask for support from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266419716239840769efb40dbd6a338bc\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, point of order, Mr Chairman. I\u2019m really loath to interrupt the Minister, but it\u2019s actually incredibly hard to hear him. If he could pull the microphone closer, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8f21ab38f144ea8dca198d00bac467\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014is that better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a0bab1d95a9400bbaf14129faeead8c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: It is\u2014we\u2019re able to hear every word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022168b6ea04e314a35af52afb7792c65ee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Very legitimate point of order, I might say, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265865ac161b145c4ad6734ad74dd02fe\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll speak up as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f2c65aa1a79428784ffe58a3fee26ac\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Imagine it\u2019s question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8fbad13d1c4406a96a6ab3f1248153\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll imagine it\u2019s question time, Duncan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edeb40132f654f16a3d5169a3c14dac5\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no\u2014that\u2019s OK. That\u2019s all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f6a9e7982544ecc8b12d666c755a312\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: He asked me to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292cbdc9f0fc34979805cabe8f08d1fc4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s Dr Webb you\u2019re speaking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d3ba79f90344362b2d4c0a13fa0132b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Dr?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a4b3f5e870a406e82cbf78d2ee30bb3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Duncan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220062bf86651543c5af35fc66581243d4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Honourable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e4f6aa8ef39486e8ae080f32ee3bd55\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282dedee129574313945d9c98075ae42c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Is it \u201Chonourable\u201D first?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022319dc209e0c34bc68dd41a8e6a5357b6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221384f9841be144259325b8b25343c902\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Hon Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f1601f911ae47dcbafe1296bf8aee40\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: And just refrain in future from using first names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ad03ae99844a52ab8305c41259d200\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise, Mr Chair\u2014I appreciate your guidance. If councils are struggling with their plans, they can ask for support from the department or ask for support from a Crown facilitator, which, of course, is outlined in this part as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the issue of Crown facilitators, Crown facilitators could be used to help councils define solutions such as coordinating or negotiating a joint arrangement and joint plan, which of course is also envisaged in this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to land farms\u2014questions in relation to the 10-year view versus the 30-year view\u2014this issue has actually been addressed in terms of the report back from the Finance and Expenditure Committee in relation to clause 13. Councils may include information that covers an additional 20 consecutive years if the information identifies investment requirements for water services infrastructure or to support future housing growth and urban development. And so that issue was addressed following submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to other elements of Lan Pham\u2019s Amendment Paper 68, the issue in regards to climate change adaptation and mitigation as they relate to water services\u2014these are covered in clause 11(1)(d) in terms of regulatory requirements, and also paragraph (i) of clause 11(1): \u201Ca description of any issues, constraints, and risks that impact on delivering water services:\u201D So, again, those issues have been have been considered and addressed in terms of the bill, so we won\u2019t be supporting that Amendment Paper because we believe those issues have been addressed and responded to in terms of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of Rachel Boyack\u2019s questions around financial support, this is requiring councils to put forward these water service delivery plans. The department will be available to support and provide advice. Ultimately, councils hold the information. We\u2019ll be requiring them to put forward those plans. And I would note that the department has been working with councils around some of the so-called Better Off funding that was allocated by the previous Government, which I would have thought would have been used to fund water infrastructure but was used\u2014a very small percentage was going to water infrastructure, a lot of it was going to a whole range of other things. We have asked the department to work with councils to reallocate that funding towards water infrastructure or towards supporting councils with setting up these new arrangements, which is a critically important part of Local Water Done Well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c82afb25f7c64cb68f33fb1f7927a4db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c82afb25f7c64cb68f33fb1f7927a4db\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman, and thank you to the Minister for that very audible reply\u2014much appreciated. One of the things that the Minister responded to\u2014and why it was that he wasn\u2019t willing to countenance an extension from 12 months to two years for the adoption of the water services delivery plans\u2014is that councils had their long-term plan (LTP) data that could be fed into it. One of the things that did come through in a legal commentary that has been published is the question around councils that want to defer their LTP adoption to June 2025. That presents a very difficult timing issue, given that the water service delivery plans would need to be adopted within only a few months of that date. And there will be a high need\u2014I think everybody recognises the very high need for the content alignment between the water services delivery plans and the LTP of any given council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think everybody in this House would agree that it seems eminently sensible and practical for the water services delivery plans to be adopted first, and the LTP\u2014the instrument which will offer the funding\u2014to follow on that. So I want to ask the Minister: has he given any consideration to that scenario? Will that be a ground for granting an extension? We\u2019ll come to the clause that does cover the discretionary ministerial powers around granting extensions\u2014I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll come to that in the fullness of time\u2014but one of the things I\u2019d like to know is, given he raised that in an answer: is that something (a) he\u2019s given any consideration on; (b) had any advice on; and (c) whether he sees that as a scenario that would be grounds for the granting of the extension?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I am also interested in, in terms of clause 9 of the bill\u2014which grants territorial authorities the ability to enter into the arrangements to submit joint plans within here. One of the things that the Minister has talked about, and I recognise that the ministerial intervention is a continuum and it can range from advice\u2014and we\u2019ll hear more when we get to this, but the Minister can \u201Cassist or intervene\u201D is the language that the bill uses around that. If we did get to a point where there was a council that is\u2014as I alluded to in my earlier contribution on this part\u2014like Buller, that is orphaned, is this a power that he would be willing to use in terms of assisting or intervening to bring together? I think he has, in some of the replies that he has given, talked about how it may be used to bring together councils. I just want to know how he envisions doing that, and where in the continuum of ministerial interventions he would see that coming together. Or is this not something that he is willing to countenance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think the ability to have those joint plans is going to be critically important for one of the key considerations for us on this side of this House, which is affordability and has always been affordability. It\u2019s about not seeing rapid rates increases like we\u2019re going to see in Buller. I\u2019d be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about a situation like Buller where we\u2019re going to see the increased rise from $2,300 to $4,000 within four years, and I think anywhere in the country that was looking at that kind of increase is going to be thinking, \u201CHow am I going to pay that?\u201D That just isn\u2019t doable, particularly when you overlay that it\u2019s from a part of the country that I sketched out has a high proportion of lower-income households, a higher proportion of superannuation. So, in terms of the interplay between clause 3(2)(b) and clause 9 of the bill, does he see those coming together or is that something he\u2019s willing to countenance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220e69a6ab6fa44ada87523cfe2670c6da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e69a6ab6fa44ada87523cfe2670c6da\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the questions in relation to Subpart 2, \u201CMinisterial powers in relation to water services delivery plans\u201D, and the role and the approach the Government will take. I mean, I think the key message here in relation to Subpart 2 is that these are a range of powers that are available, but, ultimately, the responsibility lies and rests with local governments to put forward water service delivery plans\u2014there is a requirement to put forward one within 12 months. There are the powers to be able to work together with other councils: the bill includes provisions in terms of setting up joint council-controlled organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EUltimately, these are backstops. Some of these are not powers which I think are envisaged\u2014that are in terms of any particular scenario. These are backstop provisions that are made available to ensure that councils have the support\u2014whether it\u2019s assistance, advice, or more direct involvement\u2014available. That is ultimately what the Subpart 2 is there for. In terms of particular scenarios, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s helpful for the House for me to comment on particular councils or particular scenarios due to the fact that this is about putting in place a framework which then councils will respond to, and there are backstop provisions which then enable a range of different levels of interventions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00221c5bae13e9634e08baade707b77886c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c5bae13e9634e08baade707b77886c5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think I have only a short point, but it\u2019s in respect of joint plans, which have been touched on, and the Hon Dr Megan Woods has identified the problem of orphans. I want to identify a different problem that I\u2019m actually just genuinely not clear what the legislation anticipates, and that is the islands problem\u2014that is to say non-contiguous territorial authorities clubbing together for a joint plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I say this because it was raised personally with me that there are territorial authorities that are, essentially, going shopping for partners. You might have somewhere like Hurunui, which is relatively sparsely populated, with a small rating base, and difficult to service. And then you\u2019ve got Blenheim city to the north of it, and Amberley and Waimakariri to the south. Now, what would happen if Waimakariri and Blenheim clubbed together but left Hurunui out in the cold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe problem I have is that you\u2019ve got a definition of \u201Cjoint service area\u201D, which kind of implies that you\u2019re intending it to be contiguous, and then in clause 9, in Part 2, you\u2019ve got that territorial authorities may submit a joint plan where they propose delivering water services through a joint arrangement. Now, is that joint arrangement? Is it enough if that joint arrangement is the engineering and accounting departments sitting in one set of offices, but there being absolutely no shared services whatsoever, there being two entirely separate water networks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt strikes me that that hasn\u2019t been contemplated. It strikes me that, in the back of our mind, is contiguous areas clubbing together to have geographical and economic efficiencies\u2014and that\u2019s a good thing, right; that was always part of the plan\u2014whereas a joint plan which cherry picks well-managed, well-capitalised councils is kind of undermining that entirely. But it\u2019s not clearly prohibited. And if it\u2019s not prohibited, it\u2019s allowed. I know that there are\u2014and they\u2019re only doing their job\u2014councils out there looking for the best advantage they can get in this framework, for their people, as they should. That may mean that there\u2019s, essentially, a highly inefficient delivery of water networks with islands of well-capitalised councils cooperating with a sea of undercapitalised councils around them. I\u2019d be really interested if you could address whether that\u2019s in or out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022988939940e2b4768bae8790e9bce6383\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022988939940e2b4768bae8790e9bce6383\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. Still picking up on Part 2, Subpart 1, I have another separate amendment that relates to this really important issue of time frames, and this is amendment 67, and it\u2019s to do specifically with clause 16. I\u2019d really be interested to hear whether the Minister would consider amending this to the bill tonight, because it\u2019s so important to the actual delivery and success or failure of this bill. It\u2019s about extending the deadline for local authorities to actually deliver these water service delivery plans. This is an acknowledgment of the fact that actually every single council that did submit on this bill asked for this extended time frame. Local Government New Zealand asked for it; Taituar\u0101 asked for it. And it\u2019s really in recognition that the development of these water service development plans will take time. It\u2019ll take specialist skills, and councils really need to hear from Government here that we\u2019re listening in terms of granting them that pragmatic time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, I want to pick up on this because the water service delivery plans themselves require information on the current state of councils\u2019 water services. They not only want councils to set that out; they want to see, included in them, a strategy for how councils will deliver that financial sustainability that we\u2019ve covered in previous areas, and how they will actually meet regulatory standards and the information that will actually lay the groundwork for the economic regulation of the water services. This is really extensive stuff. And what we heard really clearly from submissions on this is\u2014and this is a quote from Taituar\u0101: \u201CThe decisions that local authorities are likely to make will have significant impacts on lands and waters, and these decisions could give rise to a breach of the Crown\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi obligations.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThis is a concern when it comes to time frames, because they elaborate in saying, \u201CWe are unconvinced that genuine processes with iwi M\u0101ori can be run against a clock, and we submit that any reform process for three waters must result in arrangements that are enduring. In that spirit, surely Parliament would want these processes to be done right, rather than done quickly?\u201D And I think that\u2019s definitely the sentiment that we\u2019re hearing from the Minister. There is some urgency around it, because of our infrastructure deficit, but we want it to be done right. We don\u2019t want this back-and-forth that we\u2019ve seen with the previous Government and then this Government in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI want to also pick up on the Public Health Communication Centre, because they spelt out really clearly the importance of extending these time frames. They talked about their research which demonstrated that New Zealand\u2019s water infrastructure has a really low resilience when it comes to climate change impacts, and they said, \u201CFor this reason, we also suggest that 12\u00A0months is an insufficient time frame for the development of these water service development plans. These are long-term complex and vital infrastructure investments, and they should be rigorously developed.\u201D The amendment that I\u2019m proposing is simply to change the 12-month period to two years. Now, I\u2019m noting that, in the bill, there is the ability for councils to ask for an extension, but what councils are saying is this is going to be such a collaborative effort, and they want to be able to map it out properly, they want to be able to fund it properly, and by doing that with really clear set time frames, that actually helps them in their decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI also wanted to hear from the Minister\u2014because there was this quite interesting part of the regulatory impact statement that estimated that preparing the water service development plans would only require one fulltime-equivalent working 40 hours for a small council and up to 100 hours for a larger council\u2014whether he has actually revised those time frames and expectations, given that, in the submissions we heard so clearly from local government that it\u2019s going to take so much resource and that they want to do it properly, and that they\u2019re really asking for that pragmatic extension in time frames. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8e45bd511a64221ada1ea1045acca95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8e45bd511a64221ada1ea1045acca95\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, members, for the questions. In relation to the issue around joint plans, \u201CTerritory authorities\u201D\u2014as it says here; I mean the legislation is quite clear\u2014\u201Ccan prepare a joint plan in relation to delivering water services in the joint service area covered by a joint arrangement.\u201D, and, ultimately, councils will decide and have those conversations and make those decisions. There are obviously some backstop powers in here as well, in relation to the role that Government may have, but, ultimately, councils are required to put forward their water service delivery plans and make those arrangements as this legislation requires.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to Lan Pham\u2019s questions here in terms of the issue around time frames\u2014and I understand the point that she\u2019s making in relation to one year and two years, and that is the reason why we have clause 17, to allow for there to be an extension granted by the Minister following an application\u2014the reality here, though, is we\u2019ve got a tension between the infrastructure challenges and the need for a clear plan from councils to ensure that we can deliver this infrastructure for New Zealanders, which is the Government\u2019s priority, and the urgency that we\u2019re applying to this issue and the member\u2019s suggestion around wanting to take longer to grapple through those issues. I put it to her that, if we provide two years for all councils, most councils will utilise two years, and, actually, we need to provide a level of urgency in terms of requiring councils to put forward these plans in an efficient manner so that decisions can then be made and that can then be executed so we can get from the planning stage to the delivery stage, which is critically important for New Zealand\u2019s water infrastructure. Twelve months is an adequate time for preparing it. There is an exceptions process in place, which we think is adequate if an extension is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a couple of other tabled amendments put on the Table. Rachel Boyack has put forward a tabled amendment in relation to clause 11\u2014inserting, after clause 11, the time frame of how the anticipated or proposed model arrangements provided were made compliant. This is the same as the member\u2019s\u2014the time frame is set by the time frame of the plans. It\u2019s up to councils how long their plans cover. Effectively, I\u2019ve already answered that question in relation to\u2014the legislation does allow for plans to be up to 30\u00A0years. The point is to allow a view of investment that falls outside of 10 years, if they wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the other Amendment Paper, made by Lan Pham, in terms of clause 8A, around replacing \u201CWellington Regional Council\u201D with \u201Cregional councils\u201D\u2014we won\u2019t be supporting the Amendment Paper\u2014the reason for this reference to include \u201CWellington Regional Council\u201D is that only the Wellington Regional Council provides water services. They are the bulk water supplier for the region. No other regional councils are directly involved in water services delivery, hence why we did that. I thought I\u2019d just answer that there\u2019s specific reason for having that in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022506569202c924d88a6b143eab4f079f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022506569202c924d88a6b143eab4f079f7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Meitaki, Mr Chair. I appreciate the call. I want to follow on from an issue that my colleague Rachel Boyack canvassed in part, and that is the workload on councils in terms of preparing water services delivery plans. I also want to, like my colleagues in the Labour Party and in the Green Party, at this stage confine my remarks to Subpart 1 of Part 2 because we do want to discuss this subpart by subpart. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re working through Subpart 1 at this stage, and it concerns itself with a number of issues but it talks about the water services delivery plans that territorial authorities must prepare; that\u2019s in clause 8(1), sitting there. They have to prepare these water services plans and we go through clause 11, and this is where the workload really comes on for territorial authorities, because clause 11 goes through and specifies the contents of these water services delivery plans\u2014and there\u2019s a lot in them. If we go through subclause (1) of that, in (a) it\u2019s a description of the current state of the water services network; (b) description of the current services of the current levels of services; (c) a description of the areas in the district that get water services, and the water services infrastructure associated with a variety of population growth and so on\u2014to what extent water services comply with regulations. I\u2019m going to come back to this in a minute, but I just want to go through how much detail is required, for the benefit of the committee and for the benefit of people watching at home, so they understand the workload that is being imposed on territorial authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIn (e), the details of the capital and operational expenditure required to deliver services\u2014and on it goes. There\u2019s more, there\u2019s more\u2014(f) the financial projections for delivering water services, the operating costs and revenue, the projected capital expenditure\u2014this is a lot of information\u2014the projected borrowing as well. And still it goes on: (g) an assessment of the current condition, lifespan, and value of the networks; (h) description of the asset management approach; (i) description of any issues and constraints and risks. But wait, there\u2019s more: (j) the anticipated or proposed model or arrangements for delivering water services; the possibility of any joint arrangement. In (k), a description of how the revenue from and delivery of water service will be separated from the territorial authority\u2019s other functions\u2014so that\u2019s going to be an interesting one for councils that don\u2019t particularly separate out, you know, a separate charge. They\u2019re going to have to do some work around that. In (l), a bit of a summary of the consultation; (m) an explanation of what they\u2019re going to do to make sure it\u2019s financially sustainable\u2014and we\u2019ve discussed some of those issues already with the smaller territorial authorities\u2014and (ma) an implementation plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s a lot of information that councils are going to be required to produce, but the bit that\u2019s really, I think, going to add an extraordinary workload\u2014and I really want the Minister to clarify some stuff around this\u2014is what\u2019s required in clause 11(d)(ii) and clause 11(da), and there\u2019s a phrase in both of them: \u201Canticipated future regulatory requirements\u201D. Not only are councils going to have to describe what\u2019s going on in their water services network at the moment, they\u2019re going to have to find a crystal ball and have a little think about anticipated future regulatory requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s a big ask. The Minister is asking councils to go project into the future, and I think this is really problematic. For starters, they are being asked to project 10 years into the future under the standard version of their water service delivery plans that are required, or if they choose to develop a plan that extends for longer, they might have to project at least 30 years into the future as to how long they\u2019re going to have to project what those regulatory requirements are for. I\u2019m just wondering where the funding for the crystal balls is coming from. But, you know, that\u2019s not all, and I\u2019m going to seek an extension of this call because there\u2019s another aspect of this which I don\u2019t see is being canvassed in the bill, and I think we need some clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe \u201Canticipated future regulatory requirements\u201D\u2014with respect to what? With respect to what? Is it with respect to water services, or are councils going to have to project what regulatory requirements might be put in place due to, say, climate change requirements? Now, in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, at the moment, we are working through an extensive inquiry into climate adaptation and the sort of future frameworks that Government might put in place for dealing with climate adaptation. It\u2019s a huge workload and we\u2019re anticipating that coming out of it Government will eventually be setting regulations. Is the way this bill is framed\u2014is it asking councils to anticipate those regulations? Is it asking councils to anticipate regulations, I don\u2019t know, with respect to green space? Is it saying that councils have to anticipate regulations to do with import rules, with customs duties for bringing in particular\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a36c9959052d401caa877ae243e2cf61\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Allowing pollution into rivers, perhaps?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d882378ed5bc48289d0fd3fec492aef2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, oh yeah. There\u2019s all sorts of regulations that Government make, so I think we need a little bit of clarity here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis is a lot to ask of councils. They\u2019re going to have to buy the crystal balls\u2014these anticipated future regulations\u2014but it looks to me like they\u2019re going to have to buy a whole bowling set of them or maybe a pool-table set. You know, there\u2019s going to have to be a lot of crystal balls that they\u2019re going to have to use to look into the future. So I would like some clarity from the Minister about these anticipated future regulatory requirements. I\u2019d like the Minister to sort of give some clarification. This is going to be important that it gets into the Hansard, because this is going to be interpreted by lawyers and in the courts when it turns out that councils have not gazed into crystal balls correctly, when they have not anticipated regulations because they couldn\u2019t know. Some lawyer, some court is going to be looking at the Hansard and saying, \u201CWhat on earth did the Parliament mean when it said \u2018anticipated future regulatory requirements\u2019?\u201D So, Minister, I\u2019d like to know how good these crystal balls have to be, and I\u2019d like to know what sets of regulations they need to apply to. How well do councils have to engage with this, and in respect of what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s probably straightforward; it could probably be easily fixed with a little tweak that said something about anticipated future regulatory requirements with respect to water services; you could probably clarify it that way. I hope that is what the Minister intends and if, in fact, that is what he intends, perhaps we can have an amendment to that effect. But, beyond that, I want an understanding from the Minister as to how far into the future that councils have to try to work out what regulations are going to be in place in order that they can devise these water services delivery plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00229615c0a3d1b24576995861f5f7e2dc8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229615c0a3d1b24576995861f5f7e2dc8c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the members for their questions. I noticed there is another Amendment Paper in the name of Lan Pham, No. 70, in relation to upholding the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. The Government won\u2019t be supporting this Amendment Paper. It\u2019s not necessary to amend the bill to incorporate the Treaty or Treaty settlements. Councils will have to continue to comply with all requirements under local government legislation and existing Treaty settlements, this includes requirements to consult, where relevant, with iwi or M\u0101ori. So that Amendment Paper is not required. In relation to\u2014[Interruption]\u2014oh, sorry, I need to use my question time voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224449028ddd54406090e445539ac54fa6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Use your question time voice, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d500fb92b3349c49a8325030ffcd2c9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I know how much everyone appreciates it when I\u2019m a bit quieter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e37be19c3aa74fbe99e5f77002c94fc2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Move closer to the mike.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022075d59e17fe24c8c924dcf3cc2364ab1\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll try and get closer to the mike. There we are. Sorry about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question around workload\u2014and I think the Hon Deborah Russell did a very good job of reading out clause 11. I appreciate that that is now in the Hansard. But the answer there is: a lot of the answers to these questions can be found within existing long-term plan data. They can request assistance from the department. A description of current levels of service, etc., are in other planning documents already. A lot of this information already exists. The purpose of this water service delivery plan is to bring it together in a water service delivery plan to outline the council\u2019s intentions and strategy using that data as to how it\u2019s going to implement it. The department will also be providing guidance and templates and Excel models for councils to populate, which will assist, I\u2019m sure, greatly\u2014and I\u2019m sure the member will be very appreciative to hear that, that excellent work that the Department of Internal Affairs is doing to assist our councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the other part of the question around the crystal balls, which she spent quite some time talking about\u2014and she suggested that we made the anticipated future regulatory requirements relate to water services\u2014if she just read the first part of that sentence, it says, \u201Cif any water services do not comply\u201D. It already was referring to water services. The intention here is to require councils to identify when consents of critical infrastructure may expire outside of the 10-year period or plan and to, obviously, look at those issues as part of these plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5160ed2f840416a909860b22b681a63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5160ed2f840416a909860b22b681a63\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. And thank you, Minister Brown, for making sure that we can hear your answers. I\u2019ve got a number of questions that I hope the Minister can clarify, given that the three waters are such a critical responsibility of local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to refer to a very recent presentation in the Wairarapa, by Professor James Renwick, which, unfortunately, no other MP was able to attend. He was talking about the increasing climate change effects of both drought and floods. I do concur that looking further than 10 years is going to be absolutely essential, given that in many parts of the country, water for drinking in urban and peri-urban areas comes directly from rivers. So my first question is about the issue of the regional council. The Minister\u2019s already addressed that being an existing part of Wellington Water is why you\u2019re including the Greater Wellington Regional Council. But surely the issues of catchments, of the amount of water take for water races\u2014all of those matters are within the purview of regional councils, and it would be extremely useful to have their advice and their thinking directly involved in these water services entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EFor example, I think South Wairarapa District Council must have one of the longest water races, at 240 kilometres long: the Moroa Water Race. I\u2019m sure my colleague at the other side of the Chamber knows it well. So the first question is: are there not some more considerations about why regional councils, with their broader issues of forecasting, knowing water levels in rivers, and so on, are not included?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EMy second question is somewhat connected with that. Including regional councils would go some way to addressing the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s question about whether we will end up with, frankly, a spotty patchwork of well-resourced councils with those that\u2014it may well not be the fault of the existing council; things may have happened, whether it\u2019s earthquakes or floods that the current council has got a much more expensive row to hoe ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EMy further question there is whether it\u2019s almost a backdoor attempt to force amalgamation with councils. For example, what would the Minister say to a Greytown resident who today asked me\u2014or, he made a comment that central government didn\u2019t fully understand local government. He said, \u201CWellington may be able to manage their future requirements, Masterton may be able to manage their future requirements, but the South Wairarapa could become bankrupt.\u201D What is the result for a council like that? So that\u2019s another reason for being concerned about orphans, or, if you like, dry islands in the provision of water services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in looking at how on earth a council is expected to create a water services delivery plan when we haven\u2019t got bill three, which may look at financial support and how it\u2019s achieved. Minister Brown will be well aware of how we form regional land transport plans, and they are not a limitless list of projects. Whether it\u2019s a road, rail\u2014thank you for the Wairarapa train\u2014or even walking and cycling, those are worked together knowing what the financial assistance rate is for those different aspects. We know nothing about how central government will make any form of partnership. And there is\u2014I guess I could call it a whakatauk\u012B, if it wasn\u2019t English, which is \u201Ccut your coat according to your cloth\u201D. How can a council do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022faabfa143d72405c96f169118827367d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faabfa143d72405c96f169118827367d\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. Thank you very much. I just wanted to talk briefly to Subpart 1 in Part 2 and follow up, really, on the contribution I made earlier, which was about Part 1. But still, I do want to bring in the submission from the Chatham Islands Council. Many councils will be in a similar situation, and some of my colleagues on this side of the House have raised this, but I don\u2019t believe we\u2019ve yet really had an answer from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI mean, the first point was around the time frames for developing water services delivery plans. Chatham Islands Council, like many other councils, asked for that to be extended. If the Minister is unwilling to consider two years, maybe 18 months would be a reasonable compromise. Otherwise, I do believe the Minister is going to get many applications for extensions and even the process of making the application is a certain amount of time and resource that\u2019s taking away from actually getting the water service delivery plan done and the infrastructure in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESecondly, coming back to the Minister\u2019s answer to me around how the water service delivery plan would identify the financial sustainability, and if we look at clause 11(1)(m), an explanation of what the territorial authority proposes to do to ensure that the delivery of water services will be financially sustainable, I\u2019m sure the Chatham Islands Council isn\u2019t the only one that is actually reliant on central government to know what they\u2019re able to do, so this legislation is only asking for the council to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIn this case, what the Government is, effectively, doing, in their bottom-up approach, is putting a whole lot of legal responsibilities on councils: responsibilities to develop water services plans, to go out and find partners to make arrangements with, to do all of this work and they have very limited funding sources. Councils, like the Chatham Islands, have no ability to borrow, and unless they team up with a larger water delivery organisation, they will probably be unable to meet this. But how are they meant to deliver their water service delivery plan and specifically explain what they\u2019re going to do to ensure that it\u2019s financially sustainable without having the information from Government about funding that might be available to small councils like this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI mean, ultimately, the crisis that we are facing in water infrastructure was not created in the last three or six years; it was created over several decades. There\u2019s no magic money tree, the money has to come from somewhere to pay for the infrastructure. In the case of small rural councils, they simply do not have the rating space to pay for this, yet we still expect and want them to have safe drinking water, waste-water services that protect public health\u2014we still expect all of that. So the question that the Minister has, of course, completely avoided and is unable to answer, I think, fundamentally, is where central government\u2019s responsibility is and what their commitment is to funding this vital infrastructure or making additional revenue-raising tools available to councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI think that would help councils maybe like Auckland or Wellington or Christchurch, but it\u2019s unlikely to help a council like the Chatham Islands. Who are they going to raise this revenue from? It\u2019s a population of 700 people, extremely remote to the rest of New Zealand, with a population that is facing higher costs for everything they do, every single thing that the Government puts on them to do, like even a water service delivery plan or investing in infrastructure\u2014all of that costs more in the Chatham Islands, and yet they have fewer people to pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EUltimately, the heart of this is, like, here we have the legal responsibilities and requirements that central government is putting on local government. Where is the partnership? Where is the commitment to funding? Central government raises far more revenue across New Zealand than local government does through their revenue-raising tools, and, really, it should be central government\u2019s responsibility to fund this public good infrastructure, to a certain extent. I would love to hear the Minister respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022de0ede096f044dfc9ea66b7f0646f106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de0ede096f044dfc9ea66b7f0646f106\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just testing this new microphone angle; I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s any better, and I just want to get some feedback. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a8e8f918bf74775ad317844627bf68d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it better? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ff202404bd746759ffb319a08a278ec\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: It is better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222445d966dfa34ac0b0c94654fcc4d73f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Is that great? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce64bfacad7b46978047b8df30b783e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227275395540d1446daa4d199a3e04e6d9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s good\u2014I don\u2019t have to use my question time voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022244d6abc51134bf5be843f3a60eaca75\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Not quite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022828713ae6f3d42329a8f7f95d4c33c27\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Not quite. That\u2019s good\u2014that\u2019s good. Well, I\u2019ll just respond to a couple of those questions. The first one, from Her Worship Celia Wade-Brown, was in relation to small councils and amalgamations. The issue here is around shared services, so it\u2019s not around amalgamations, and I think this legislation does put in place a framework which will enable far greater shared services between councils, which will achieve a greater level of economies of scale, but it doesn\u2019t anticipate or require amalgamations. I think that shared services is a way in which councils can achieve those cost-effective efficiencies for consumers, and this is certainly one of the areas we expect councils to be working together very closely on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s questions around the time frame, I\u2019ve already addressed this question. There is an ability for councils to apply for an extension. Our expectation is that councils will comply with it. As I\u2019ve already outlined, the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) is going to provide templates\u2014Excel spreadsheets which will be populated with the data. There\u2019s going to be an ability for advice from them, as well. A lot of that information is already available or has to be prepared by councils, and so it\u2019s putting that together as part of this plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question around funding\u2014and I\u2019ve addressed this question already, as well\u2014the last Government put half a billion dollars into the so-called Better Off Fund, or whatever they called it, and very, very little of it went to water infrastructure. A very small percentage went to water infrastructure. It went to all sorts of other manners of projects and cycleways and footpaths and other random things, and, actually, what we\u2019ve asked the DIA to do is to work with councils who haven\u2019t yet spent their Better Off funding to actually look at how it can be reallocated and utilised towards supporting them with these water service delivery plans, the advice they may need, and also then actual infrastructure, because, ultimately, that is what that fund should have been used for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00226bbde316edf84c13bac560e05b08ed4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bbde316edf84c13bac560e05b08ed4a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, meitaki. This is my first contribution on Part 2 of this bill, and we are still on Subpart 1 of Part 2. I want to start at a fairly high level and then I\u2019ve got some more specific questions. We\u2019ve heard from the Minister of Local Government in the Part 1 debate that this legislation is mysteriously going to help our councils, and I say \u201Cmysteriously\u201D because I never got an answer to how that was going to happen. But here we are in Part 2 of the debate and we see that councils are going to have to do these water service delivery plans. That is what we are debating right now: the water service delivery plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the Minister; he said, \u201CWell, the previous Government\u2019s approach, it was top down.\u201D There was $120 billion minimum\u2014figures derived from, as the Hon Barbara Edmonds has pointed out, information gathered from councils. The Minister says, \u201CThat doesn\u2019t work. That\u2019s top down. We need bottom up. And so how we\u2019re going to do bottom up is we\u2019re going to ask councils for this information to make the plans.\u201D We\u2019ve had discussions in this debate, which I won\u2019t repeat, but there\u2019s been questions about\u2014well, what are the time frames for these plans and where are councils going to get the information for the plans? And the Minister has replied, \u201CWell, there\u2019s going to be an Excel spreadsheet. It\u2019s going to be really easy for the councils to do this. They can decide their own time frames, because, of course, that is in the long-term plans and it\u2019s up to them.\u201D We\u2019ve heard questions on\u2014well, what is the planning for hazards and climate change? We know that a whole lot of this infrastructure is in areas where there will be sea-level rise. We know that a whole lot of this infrastructure is in areas where there are heavier rainfalls. I think the Minister\u2019s answer has been \u201CWell, it\u2019s just up to councils. They can do what they like.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy questions, assuming that I am correct in my summation, there, of where the Minister\u2019s thinking is\u2014and he said there\u2019s going to be a third piece of legislation that\u2019s going to work with regulation. I can only assume that that regulation will be something about water meters, given the comments in the regulatory impact statement and, of course, the blocked out bits of the funding constraints that we\u2019ve covered as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EClause 8 is the primary clause in this part, about what is going to be in these water service delivery plans. It\u2019s for the council to meet regulations, but the plan also has to be financially sustainable for that council\u2014there\u2019s \u201Cands\u201D in this clause\u2014and it has to meet water quality standards, and it has to supports the council\u2019s housing growth and urban development. I think this is where the Minister before said that the climate change piece fits in. But what happens when you can\u2019t do \u201Cand, and, and, and\u201D? What happens then? Is there a hierarchy in this? What are the Minister\u2019s expectations? I know this Government likes to talk a lot about balance. How is the council to implement, when we hear over and over again that there are all these councils that simply cannot afford to provide this necessary infrastructure? What happens when there is a conflict between those Roman numerals in clause 8(1)(b)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, of course, we know, and we see in clause 18, that there is a process\u2014and there\u2019s been some discussion about central government needing to approve these plans. So that\u2019s at clause 18. And at subclause (4): the councils \u201Cmust comply with the requirement to amend and resubmit a plan by the date specified.\u201D A question to the Minister here, a very specific question: are there any parameters for that, and does that relate to the hierarchy, or is there any hierarchy, back in clause 8? So I think that relationship between clauses 8 and 18 is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EVery quickly, I\u2019d remind the Minister of that very good point raised by Dr Duncan Webb about when councils aren\u2019t contiguous\u2014what happens then? And specifically, what happens\u2014[Bell rung] Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c14d64d2291640f2b5c91cfd1f251e5b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be265f65684d431286f2acf629eb805a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll be very, very quick with this\u2014rounding up my contribution here. What happens with those councils in Northland? We\u2019ve got that block with Auckland happening. Can they join with other councils? What is the thinking that\u2019s gone in into that? So I would very much like some answers on those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae37d0adcacf41b893e8b63c2922decf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae37d0adcacf41b893e8b63c2922decf\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair, thank you. I want to take it back to the beginning of Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb07bf7b261b4baaa79a5559d7cd82f2\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Genesis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae01b22ccacb40e6802f99aa19f21127\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I do want to take it back to Genesis, in a sense, the genesis of our nationhood, because you could say that we have a Government that\u2019s busy kind of trying to rewrite Genesis, if you like, trying to omit Genesis and burn it and remove it from various bits of legislation. I\u2019m here to save the Minister of Local Government from this terrible omission of our founding agreement, Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI know that members on the other side, their better instincts are not to deny Te Tiriti, not to undermine it, not to eat away at it, and so I have prepared, Minister\u2014and I know you\u2019ve earlier suggested that you don\u2019t want to accept this amendment, but I would make a case to you, Minister, that it would be a major improvement to the legislation if you did put Te Tiriti o Waitangi in there. I\u2019ve got the perfect place for it: it can come under Subpart 1 in Part 2, in clause 8, \u201CTerritorial authority must prepare water services delivery plan\u201D. In clause 8, at subparagraph (v), we can insert \u201Cupholds the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi (Te Tiriti o Waitangi);\u201D\u2014you could omit the term \u201Cthe principles\u201D, we\u2019d be happy with that; you could just say \u201Cuphold Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D\u2014\u201Cand is consistent with any obligations arising under a Treaty settlement Act or Treaty settlement deed.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESubclause (2A)(a) of this clause could rightly also have \u201CTreaty settlement Act means\u2014(i) an Act listed in Schedule 3 of the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975; or (ii) any other Act that provides redress for Treaty of Waitangi claims, including Acts that provide collective redress or participation arrangements for claimant groups whose claims are, or are to be, settled by another Act, including\u2014(A) the Maori Commercial Aquaculture Claims Settlement Act 2004: (B) the Ng\u0101 Mana Whenua o T\u0101maki Makauru Collective Redress Act 2014: (C) the Nga Wai o Maniapoto (Waipa River) Act 2012: (D) the Ngati Tuwharetoa, Raukawa, and Te Arawa River Iwi Waikato River Act 2010: and (E) the Treaty of Waitangi (Fisheries Claims) Settlement Act 1992;\u201D And, finally, the \u201CTreaty settlement deed means a deed or other agreement that\u2014(i) has been signed by or on behalf of a Minister of the Crown and representatives of a group of M\u0101ori; and (ii) is in settlement of the claims of that group or in express anticipation, or on account, of that settlement; but (iii) does not include an agreement in principle or any document that is preliminary to a signed and ratified deed.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve taken some time with this, Minister, and I would invite you to consider, again, accepting this amendment. And I would invite your colleagues opposite, given the importance of this legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224219b44ec7a64d91be69fd0a778e9a01\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s important that you direct your comments to the Chair, not to the Minister directly. So you\u2019re having a conversation with me, yep?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f5e9339196485a923153f6e95cbe3c\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon me\u2014pardon me, Mr Chair. The advantage of adding in this Treaty clause is significant in the context of the thing we\u2019re talking about, which is wai\u2014water\u2014that fundamental resource on which we all depend but which we must acknowledge is enshrined in our founding agreement as a taonga, as a treasure that belongs to tangata whenua. To omit Te Tiriti in that upholding of the recognition of M\u0101ori say and access and self-determination in the management of their lands\u2019 resources is a serious omission and one that we believe the Minister should seriously consider correcting for the good of our nationhood. That is my submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00224062d604c57946c3ba0d9cc09337f7fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224062d604c57946c3ba0d9cc09337f7fd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank the members for the questions. The questions from the Hon Rachel Brooking: there is no hierarchy in clause 8 and that is an important point. Those are all elements in terms of what must be repaired as part of those water service delivery plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question around the Treaty of Waitangi, we\u2019ve already outlined the Government\u2019s position on that in relation to the Amendment Paper No. 70.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00220d16963e38114a5a8a4e86116221c2fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d16963e38114a5a8a4e86116221c2fb\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a real pleasure to be able to take my first call on Part 2, Subpart 1. As I remind members of the committee, the Labour Party\u2014because this particular part is where the rubber meets the road for this bill, it is quite substantial for us to structure it in a way that we can structure the debate. Because we had a number of members in the committee, we said we would go through it, through Subpart 1, which is clauses 8 to 19\u2014that obviously covers what should be in the water service delivery plans. Then members would start to take calls on Subpart 2, which is the ministerial powers in relation to the water service delivery plans. We haven\u2019t even touched on that\u2014none of our members has even touched from clause 20 on. Then we would look at Subpart 3, which is the additional information disclosure, which is the remaining clauses of Part 2. So I go back to the start, which is Part 2, Subpart 1, and it\u2019s really just a comment and, actually, a request to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI know if we had a bit more time to proofread this in the Finance and Expenditure Committee (FEC)\u2014I just want to check the drafting of clause 9. There is a lot of interchange between \u201Cjoint plan\u201D, \u201Cjoint arrangement\u201D, \u201Cjoint water services delivery plan\u201D, and I understand that all those three different terms are defined within the definitions part of the Act. But I want to just double-check that it reads correctly, because there\u2019s a lot of interchange between the joint water services delivery plan and then a joint plan. So I just want to make sure\u2014oh, sorry, joint arrangement, which is at the end. I just want to make sure that that particular clause 9(1) is actually correct. I think if we had more time at FEC, we probably would have redrafted that because it\u2019s a little bit clumsy. But, of course, that\u2019s what happens when you\u2019re, basically, rushed to try and do the revised track of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EActually, my main question, really, is to the Minister and it\u2019s in relation to his Amendment Paper\u00A065: clause 15. So the Minister proposes to replace clause 15, which the select committee had provided as a revised-track version of the bill, and I\u2019ve had to scribble it out to ensure that I could read it correctly with the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper. As my good colleague Rachel Brooking\u2014who, like myself, is a lawyer\u2014knows, there are many times when you have to do submissions for both court or for papers, for whatever reason when you do opinions, where you have to look back into the Hansard. Not that you really want to go through the annals of the Hansard, but you do to understand the intention of the Minister in relation to his amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENow, this Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper\u2014the Minister hasn\u2019t spoken to clause 15. This Amendment Paper is a new paper that has been tabled as part of this particular part of the bill. It does actually bring in a new requirement for consultation and it brings in a requirement \u201CIn relation to an anticipated or proposed model or arrangement for delivering water services in its water services delivery plan, a territorial authority must\u2014(a) undertake consultation; and (b) ensure that its consultation and [the] decision-making complies with [the various] sections 51 to 54.\u201D However, when we considered this clause\u00A015 in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, we actually had a number of conversations at the select committee around the requirement to consult. Was it consulting on the draft plan once the draft or the draft joint plan had been completed? Do you have another round of consultation? Because there are quite stringent consultation requirements as part of the Local Government Act. That\u2019s basically some of the conversations that we had at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe amendments that we had put in\u2014which are in the revised-tracked version of the bill\u2014say, at 15(2) that \u201CA territorial authority must comply with the Local Government Act 2002 \u2026 except as provided in Part 3 of this Act.\u201D Then (3) goes on to \u201CThis Act does not require a territorial authority to consult in relation to a water services delivery plan. However, a territorial authority must comply with the Local Government Act 2002\u201D. That\u2019s now been removed. The Minister is proposing an amendment to the bill, and I think what he\u2019s trying to do is just remove that grey bit, but I\u2019m not the Minister. Again, as Rachel Brooking has said, it\u2019s quite important to have the Minister\u2019s intention quite clear. This was not part of the select committee process; it is a new Amendment Paper, and I haven\u2019t quite understood what\u2019s the Minister\u2019s intention in relation to that clause of the Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00224af8da512a2144869e5b18649fcbadcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224af8da512a2144869e5b18649fcbadcc\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We\u2019re still on Subpart 1, and this will be my only contribution for Subpart 1 of Part 2, and I want to pick up on what the Minister mentioned before in the conversation that the Minister had with my colleague Lan Pham. But I want to specifically focus on clause 17 in terms of the extension that the Minister mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, one of the things that the Minister mentioned previously was around the timing of the 12-month period and why he is not supporting, in this case, one of the amendments. But, considering that, for a lot of councils, in anticipation of the bill that the Minister mentioned will be coming later, around the financing, some of the councils might be waiting for a little while until there is a firmer idea of what that looks like before putting some of the plans together\u2014specifically clause 11(1)(e) and (f). I want to check in terms of when territorial authorities are able to apply, to start the process of applying, for an extension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EClause 17(2)(d) is very clear that you can\u2019t apply for an extension any later than one month before the last date for submitting, but it doesn\u2019t actually say how far in advance you are able to apply for it. So is it possible for territory authorities to start applying immediately\u2014once this bill comes into effect\u2014in anticipation of the delay in terms of getting some of the financing and some of the bills that are going to be coming later in the year, and start that process immediately? That\u2019s my first question around clause 17.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second one I have is: how long are they able to extend for? It is specified in (6A) that the Minister, if he decides to grant an extension, can notify the length of the extension. But it would also be quite nice to get some sort of intent from the Minister on what are some of the frameworks. If we\u2019re looking at some of the requirements under clause 13(1)(a) in the sense that it has to start with the 2024-25 year, a natural assumption is that a territorial authority cannot extend or ask for extension for five years. So is it that we are looking at roughly a maximum of a 12-month extension, for example? Some sort of framework or some guidelines from the Minister would be quite helpful. That\u2019s my second question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy third question is that it says the Minister may grant \u201Cif the Minister is satisfied\u201D. I want to know how long it will take for the Minister to decide. Now, if you\u2019re looking at clause 18, when the secretary accepts a plan, they said, \u201Cas soon as reasonably practicable\u201D. But, for the Minister, let\u2019s say a person applies five weeks before their deadline and it takes three weeks for the Minister to make a decision\u2014which is fair enough, because there\u2019s a lot of factors the Minister may consider\u2014if it is accepted, great, and then the Minister, under subclause (6), will outline that extension. But if it is declined, what would that mean? Does that mean that the territorial authority only, again, have two weeks left to quickly put everything together, or even if it\u2019s declined, the Minister will respect the duration of clause 17(2)(d), of that one month? That\u2019s my last question. What happens if it\u2019s declined?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI wondered if it\u2019s possible for the Minister for subclause (6A) to add something that is akin to clause 18(3)(a), which is \u201C[may] notify the applicant of that decision.\u201D, with a \u201Cresubmit it to the Secretary by a specified date;\u201D. In that way, it\u2019s an understandable duration, but it also could be unsettling for the territorial authorities if they\u2019re like, \u201CWe\u2019ve asked for extension. Are we going to get it? If we don\u2019t get it, are we supposed to put something together in two weeks?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo those are my four questions. When can people extend? How long can they extend for? How long will it take the Minister to decide? And if it\u2019s declined, will they still be given a bit of a break? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00229c88a77711b44fbfa6108c4a257c218a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c88a77711b44fbfa6108c4a257c218a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for their questions. In relation to clause 15 and the tabled amendment, that is responding to submissions that were raised and are clarifying that particular clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to clause 17 on when they can apply and those questions, the key, overarching point that I think is important for the committee to understand in relation to extensions is that this Government\u2019s position is that we\u2019re wanting councils to deliver these water service delivery plans within 12 months. An extension is not something that will be granted lightly or easily. There are clear criteria, and we have clear expectations that councils will deliver it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo, look, there\u2019s a lot of potential scenarios or game theory you could try and apply on how or what or when they should apply, etc. The point I would make, though, is we are legislating and requiring councils to put forward their water service delivery plans within 12 months. There is an exceptions process for an extension, but there are very clear criteria that need to be met, and these are not something that will necessarily just be given lightly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9dff4b532d24fb9a452b7be8d770b53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9dff4b532d24fb9a452b7be8d770b53\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Chair. I do now want to move on to Subpart 2, because I think I\u2019ve checked in with my colleagues and because the Minister\u2019s engagement has been really high during Subpart 1, we feel satisfied to move now to Subpart 2, so that\u2019s from clauses 20 right through to 31. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThis particular subpart discusses the ministerial powers in relation to water service delivery plans. It\u2019s actually quite an important part of the bill because it\u2019s the one part of the bill, similar to other legislation, where if Ministers are not satisfied with the water service delivery plan including the implementation\u2014which is a new element that was introduced in the bill by the select committee\u2014then the Minister, the executive has a particular power, and it\u2019s in some ways almost unfettered power to intervene and to appoint a Crown facilitator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI appreciate the advice that we have received through officials. It\u2019s one of those situations where there has to be a particular threshold in order for the Minister to feel the need to appoint a Crown facilitator is needed. I want to be able to test a bit more and understand what that threshold is. Because in the absence of, obviously, the Hansard, again\u2014I referenced the cases that we had talked about before and the Minister\u2019s purpose and intention and Parliament\u2019s purpose and intention being really clear in the Hansard. There is not that much information within the advice to help determine some of these grounds or when that threshold is crossed, as the Hon Dr Megan had said in an earlier part of this debate, kind of when those red lines get crossed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo, if I can work through clause 20, it advises that: \u201CThe Minister may, in the circumstances set out in subsection (2), appoint a Crown facilitator \u2026 if (a) the territorial authority or the \u2026 territorial authorities requests, in writing to the Minister, that the Minister do so\u201D. That one, I think, is pretty normal. Basically, they\u2019re requesting the Minister to come and help them. They\u2019re saying to the Minister, \u201CCan you please come and grant our request?\u201D I think that\u2019s a relatively easy subsection, but I think it\u2019s the next subsection which is where things might get a bit more difficult, particularly if the local authority and the Minister disagree. We know that our regional local authorities are very proud areas. No one likes, basically, central government coming in and saying, \u201CWe\u2019re going to put a commissioner in.\u201D or \u201CWe\u2019re going to put a facilitator in and look after your assets because we don\u2019t think that you\u2019ve met a particular threshold.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThis is where I want to be able to ask the Minister\u2014it says here that \u201Cthe Minister believes, on reasonable grounds, that it would be beneficial to appoint a Crown facilitator because (i) the territorial authority or the group is otherwise unlikely to submit its plan to the Secretary in accordance with subpart 1;\u201D\u2014so, basically, the requirements of the water service delivery plan\u2014\u201Cor (ii) in the case of a group of territorial authorities, the group is having difficulty agreeing on the terms of a joint plan.; or (iii) contrary to section 19A, the territorial authority or the group of territorial authorities has not given effect to its water services delivery plan.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThat clause 2(b)(iii) was an insertion by the Finance and Expenditure Committee because we think that that was a direct correlation to the implementation plan not being carried out by councils. But, actually, it\u2019s the second clause which is that it would be beneficial to appoint a Crown facilitator\u2014the \u201Cbeneficial\u201D part, for me, I believe, is somewhat subjective. It then brings a couple of objective tests into subsection (1) and (2). I\u2019m just trying to understand from the Minister, it\u2019s got an \u201Cor\u201D; it clearly mustn\u2019t be a hierarchy. It could be one or the other, but also from his perspective, the subjective test of \u201Cbeneficial\u201D\u2014are there other types of precedents that you\u2019d see in other parts of legislation that would help to define what \u201Cbeneficial\u201D means?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESecond of all, in relation to Part 2, in the case of a group of territorial authorities, the group is having difficulty agreeing on the terms of a joint plan. I kind of don\u2019t understand why that would be necessary, because then if they can\u2019t agree to a joint plan, they don\u2019t have a joint plan. It doesn\u2019t meet the definition which is in Part 1 of this bill, which is what a joint service delivery plan is, which I kind of had talked about the drafting in clause 9 being a little bit muddled and trying to understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister, really quickly, is just about understanding the beneficial part, the subjective part of it, and the hierarchy of subclauses (1), (2), and (3). I think there is no hierarchy, but I just want to make it clear for Hansard. And also, what is the point of subclause (2)? Because, actually, there is no joint plan if they cannot come to an agreement. It is again an agreement; if there\u2019s no agreement, then there\u2019s nothing there sitting in order for them to disagree on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002225286ec8512145f380d0a33ba7b27073\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225286ec8512145f380d0a33ba7b27073\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I guess the key issue here in terms of Subpart 2 is a range of different interventions, but the key overriding point is that these will, ultimately, be used on a case by case basis. This bill sets out the situations when powers or interventions can be used in relation to plans. For example, if a council fails to submit a water services delivery plan, or if a council\u2019s failed to have a plan accepted by the Secretary for Local Government, or a council\u2019s failed to give effect\u2014there\u2019s a range of different scenarios. There\u2019s a range of possible scenarios, and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s helpful for the committee to speculate, but, ultimately, this is a broad range of powers which can be applied in a broad range of circumstances, and which option is required will be used depending on what the circumstances are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI think, ultimately, the Government\u2019s very clear message here is our expectation is that councils will work, either themselves or collaborate with other councils, to put forward these plans within the time frame and that they will put them forward, that they\u2019ll be accepted, and that they will implement them and then they will deliver against them. These are backstops. These are provisions which are available to be used if a council requests or if there is assistance needed in terms of needing to work through those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbd1841e592f41acb4ac7c7dc28e8534\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbd1841e592f41acb4ac7c7dc28e8534\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002263c2785c221b4cfaa336247264a23f5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263c2785c221b4cfaa336247264a23f5c\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair; thank you for that. Now, I am really noting that we\u2019re wanting to move on with the bill. I have one amendment. I\u2019ve been calling diligently to speak to my final amendment on Part 2, Subpart 1. I\u2019m going to be really short. It\u2019s very short, but it\u2019s very important, so I really want to be able to speak to it to the committee, because it\u2019s really a listen up moment. It\u2019s a listen up moment because this could not be more important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c72c0dde5d41d094c2a6acf721c6c8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Do you have the number of the amendment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7152a8c4c79442eb82bec3bef9a4453\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The amendment is No. 66 and it\u2019s to do with clause 8A. Now, this is about the intention of what the bill should do in terms of allowing all regional councils, not just Greater Wellington Regional Council, to be part of the planning and decision making on these joint water service entities. I acknowledge that the Minister of Local Government has already explained the obvious, with Greater Wellington Regional Council being included because they have specific water service delivery responsibilities already, but this is about the intention of the bill being about communities across the board, outside of existing territorial authority boundaries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, why it\u2019s so important that regional councils are actually involved in the planning, the alternative consultation, and potential joint water service arrangements is that we know that councils, particularly district, city, and unitaries, swear this oath when they\u2019re elected\u2014councillors do\u2014and they are subjected to their oath and then making the best decisions for the citizens in their rohe or their territorial authority boundary. Why it\u2019s so important, when we\u2019re talking about collective water services, that regional councils actually have a voice in this is because it automatically gives the elected member representation to be a voice for the good of the entire region. That is so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI\u2019m noting a lot of my local government councillors across the Chamber tonight\u2014and knowing that, you know, councils can be quite narrow in their view and it\u2019s tricky to enable them to have a broader view. Now, I note that in the bill it says that councillors may take that broader view, but to allow regional councils to actually have that voice would be a way to unlock this and unpick this in a really pragmatic way. Wellington Region and Horowhenua District\u2019s joint council submission picked this up really clearly when they talked about the impacts and views relating to an entire joint service area\u2014i.e., considerations beyond the council\u2019s own district and communities. They talked about how having a broader regional view\u2014which would be the case if we had regional councils able to be part of these processes\u2014would be critical to ensure that councils can fully consider the needs and challenges of the broader regional grouping rather than being bound by making decisions only in the best interests of their councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI think this is a very pragmatic, very clear amendment that we could put forward as a Parliament to really make sure that this bill is in the best position to actually not result in these orphan councils and these decisions that actually leave out certain areas of the country\u2014rather than the collective good. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022822adfaad02a43b0afbb3e02a3b729cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022822adfaad02a43b0afbb3e02a3b729cb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. This is a really interesting subpart of Part 2 of the bill, and we do want to sort of go through this particular subpart in a bit of detail. The interesting thing is that going back, under Subpart\u00A01, to clause 8, where it says, \u201C(1) Each territorial authority must prepare a water services delivery plan\u201D, and, of course, the question is: well, what if they don\u2019t\u2014what if they don\u2019t\u2014and there has to be in legislation something that compels the performance? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI think one of the interesting things about this is that it seems to contemplate a range of reasons as to why a council might not complete its water services delivery plan, and one is that the council kind of just refuses to do it. That would be an extreme case\u2014councils in this sort of country pretty much do comply with the law, as much as they are able to\u2014but it also contemplates that councils might not be able to do it and that they are actually going to be in a position where they say, \u201CWell, actually, this is beyond us.\u201D I think one of the ways we can see this most clearly is in clause 22 in Part 2, under Subpart 2 in Part 2 of the bill, which is the subpart we\u2019re discussing now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ELooking at that clause 22, it uses a variety of verbs to describe what the Crown facilitator may do. The Minister may appoint a Crown facilitator, and there is a process for doing that, but then there is a description of what the Crown facilitator may do. The Crown facilitator may \u201Cassist\u201D the relevant territorial, may \u201Cadvise\u201D the relevant territorial authority, or may \u201Cassist\u201D again\u2014this is clause 22(1)(a), (b), and (c)\u2014but in paragraph (d), it has the interesting word, which is \u201Cdirect\u201D the relevant territorial authority to prepare a water services plan. So that\u2019s a very commanding sort of word. I would like to hear from the Minister in what circumstances, really, he would expect that a Crown facilitator wouldn\u2019t just assist or advise, but would actually direct a territorial authority to prepare a water services plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s a bit of a time frame involved here. We know that the initial legislation says that this water services delivery plan has to be prepared within 12 months of the date of the Royal assent of this bill or such other date as the Minister may specify, or whatever, and that territorial authorities may apply for an extension on that. I\u2019m just curious as to when a council is sufficiently non-compliant. Is it the point at which they perhaps don\u2019t complete a water services plan and they don\u2019t apply for an extension, or would the Minister perhaps be working with the central government officials to work with the territorial authority to actually assist them to prepare that plan and try to get them over the line? Is the Minister going to wait until the time period in which they could have got an extension is up, and at what point do we move from \u201Cassist\u201D and \u201Cadvise\u201D to \u201Cdirect\u201D, and in what circumstances? What is the case? Is it just that they have refused to do a water services delivery plan altogether, or is it because some part of the water services delivery plan hasn\u2019t been completed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EPreviously, we discussed all the information that has to sit in a water services delivery plan, and there\u2019s a lot of information there. Would the Crown facilitator get involved in directing when some parts of the water service delivery plan are not involved? There\u2019s a lot of flexibility on this. I\u2019d just like a little bit of a discussion from the Minister as to when a Crown facilitator is appointed, possibly against the will of territorial authorities. I can imagine that this might lead to disputes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e45500ecfa9e4adf9dcea503a52e611a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e45500ecfa9e4adf9dcea503a52e611a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022afee54c635f8479489073247de07df06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afee54c635f8479489073247de07df06\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just responding to the question from Lan Pham relating to her Amendment Paper and the question on regional councils. I think it\u2019s a good question. The issue there\u2014and, obviously, I dealt with one part of the Amendment Paper before, but not the other part. The other part relates to regional councils. We don\u2019t support the proposal there as regional councils are regulators and should not be involved in decisions about service delivery. So that\u2019s the reason for not supporting that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Hon Deborah Russell\u2019s questions and comments, I\u2019ve addressed that in prior answers in relation to the fact that there\u2019s a broad range of potential examples and circumstances, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s helpful to speculate but these powers are broad and flexible and provide for a range of potential circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u00225d129a735e5e4f9190eb2208c4753d96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d129a735e5e4f9190eb2208c4753d96\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My question to the Minister\u2014and I\u2019ll keep my contribution quite brief\u2014is that, you know, the role of the Crown facilitator and the Crown water services specialist has been defined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a description here that \u201CCrown facilitator means a Crown facilitator for water services delivery plan appointed under section 20\u201D, and the definition for \u201CCrown water services specialist means a Crown water services specialist appointed under section 23\u201D. But my question is: what is the criteria that someone might become either a Crown facilitator or a Crown water services specialist? Is it basically any person who the Crown sees fit to appoint under, you know\u2014there is an appointment process described here in clause 21(1) for the Crown facilitator, and it includes descriptions of how they do it and the notice. But I think there is something lacking here in that there\u2019s no kind of, you know, job description\u2014there is a job description but there\u2019s no kind of competency requirement that\u2019s been described here. So is it that basically anyone can be a Crown facilitator and anyone can be a Crown water services specialist, or is it intended that these people are people with technical skills or knowledge, or even connection with\u2014potentially\u2014iwi or knowledge of te ao M\u0101ori? Like, what is what is the kind of intention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m seeking guidance here because my understanding from my colleagues who have taken part in the select committee is that this hasn\u2019t come up yet under the kind of discussions that have been held in the select committee, and in the previous discussions as well during committee of the whole House. So that kind of criteria might potentially be useful because, you know, people might rely on the discussions during committee of the whole House for guidance on the criteria for these. Because the work that they\u2019re doing is actually very important\u2014I mean, they have quite strong powers. We\u2019ve heard discussions from colleagues on the Labour side about the potential of what might happen when someone might refuse. So I really would like, I guess, an answer on who is intended to kind of fill these roles and whether the Minister has thought through any kind of potential appointment criteria or whether that will be potentially gazetted at a later point. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022a78d0a2a51ef4791b59c5acb1529089a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a78d0a2a51ef4791b59c5acb1529089a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, just in relation to that question, there aren\u2019t criteria listed in this bill\u2014this is consistent with the approach taken in the Local Government Act. In relation to interventions under that Act, it will depend on the skills needed in the circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5b716459d2e4fcabdcf7267c675546c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5b716459d2e4fcabdcf7267c675546c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022af9b0ca165cc4e909f43d1d8b6f1bbbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af9b0ca165cc4e909f43d1d8b6f1bbbb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220c40af506c3144468b2fba5a09347274\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c40af506c3144468b2fba5a09347274\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until 2\u00A0p.m. tomorrow. Have a good night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240807adc7e8491c1544d8b4b4dae35ac0ae74000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"