"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3e3908bb0734db2a5388074fe58ba1f\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 8 AUGUST 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249e6d6b6436b47778702da116497878f\u0022\u003ETHURSDAY, 8 AUGUST 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d33539809bf48f59961864420922413\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222fdb467972b84e10aae5c4e75f13d1d2\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022068a3861010f4dfeb9e83f507d228c3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022068a3861010f4dfeb9e83f507d228c3b\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225647ad9ea8f145769dc2cb68745e820d\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d6459194c80472696209b8f90ee3d4c\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7ff82833f8c493794e0b6056796a6cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7ff82833f8c493794e0b6056796a6cf\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Today, the House will adjourn until Tuesday, 20 August. In that week, the House will consider the committee stages of the Corrections Amendment Bill, Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill, and Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill. Wednesday will be a members\u2019 day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022406db36249dc4edc85ab261ca8f87009\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022406db36249dc4edc85ab261ca8f87009\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder if the Deputy Leader of the House could inform us, given that the Regulatory Systems (Social Security) Amendment Bill will not be introduced as an omnibus bill, whether it will be divided and introduced as a number of bills or will the Government be giving up on that bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2239243240643c381544ad87ba56005\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2239243240643c381544ad87ba56005\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I would just say to the member, that bill is very important to this Government, as is Celebrity Treasure Island to the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e133b1fc35eb4ec6b6dab4960c8b62b6\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c5a0b44ce9c469d80e437dd62eb9551\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee0fad22bc3a4a1c9a2a8458b673e4e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee0fad22bc3a4a1c9a2a8458b673e4e9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No petitions have been delivered for presentation. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5429f98f0f84eea810e2809ae5da13c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5429f98f0f84eea810e2809ae5da13c\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2024 statement of corporate intent for GNS Science\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2024-25 statement of performance expectations for the Tertiary Education Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002282df181ad99f4551b3dc522219adae86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282df181ad99f4551b3dc522219adae86\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have delivered for presentation. There is quite a long list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2def785dbfd4aa3bb5805a09ef8c8e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2def785dbfd4aa3bb5805a09ef8c8e4\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Finance, Fiscal Strategy Report 2024, and Budget Economic and Fiscal Update 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Regulation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Revenue, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EController and Auditor-General annual plan 2024-25\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the 2024-25 Estimates for Vote Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Governance and Administration Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Office of the Clerk and Vote Parliamentary Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Internal Affairs (excluding the appropriations that are the responsibility of the Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector and the Minister for Ethnic Communities)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Ombudsmen\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Public Service, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Statistics\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on the 2024-25 Estimates for Vote M\u0101ori Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Social Services and Community Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for appropriations within Vote Internal Affairs that are the responsibility of the Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector and the Minister for Ethnic Communities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Oranga Tamariki\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Pacific Peoples\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Social Development, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Social Investment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Appropriations within Vote Finance related to the infrastructure sector\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Building and Construction (excluding appropriations that are the responsibility of the Minister of Housing), and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4db48e8bea74842b5c48ebb46cdc059\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4db48e8bea74842b5c48ebb46cdc059\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The report on the Controller and Auditor-General annual plan is set down for consideration. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0a6e15a465a4dd1836c640b30602be6\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5ad7e7abdd0486aa4e4d9d21834ac36\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224675405cdd464b49a57d894f3757b01a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Local Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00228390b8e4e3c14352bdf2bf4bd354717c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228390b8e4e3c14352bdf2bf4bd354717c\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: What recent announcements has he made on Local Water Done Well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002277f0b26715604ddebc4c67957f20e7a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277f0b26715604ddebc4c67957f20e7a3\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E This morning, my colleague the Hon Andrew Bayly and I shared great news for ratepayers and local government, announcing the enduring components of water service delivery under our Government\u2019s fantastic Local Water Done Well plan. This is about providing local government with the certainty it needs to deliver the water services that Kiwis rely on, while minimising costs for ratepayers. Members on the other side said that Local Water Done Well could not be done, but after just nine months we\u2019ve delivered for communities across our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb9839210caa49488dd5e77a46f72fb8\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What are these enduring components of Local Water Done Well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267cb1a9d48924c498abcdb4ff261aeae\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The enduring components of Local Water Done Well announced today will enable new models for financially sustainable water organisations across the country and financing from the New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency for water organisations, which will reduce the financial burden on ratepayers who were faced with higher rates under three waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b30d611c064abf8aa90d04044c906a\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What does this mean for councils across the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8790cadd3cc46249575dcd275cdacfb\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Councils will be pleased with today\u2019s announcement. The New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency provides the lowest cost financing that is available to local government. From today, it will be able to support leverage for water council-controlled organisations (CCOs) up to a level equivalent of 500 percent of revenue\u2014around twice that of existing financing levels for councils, subject to water organisations meeting prudent credit criteria. This would not have happened under the co-governed, mega-entity, three waters model. Our plan restores local ownership, it restores local control of water assets, and it recognises the importance of local decision-making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ab48b84b11a4bbd94f889bbbfa8cff8\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What impact will this have on ratepayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e46f96875324f2fa3c381007f64352d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve been sitting here listening to the supplementary questions, and they simply don\u2019t relate to any announcements that the Minister has made. Yesterday, you upbraided a member of the Opposition for supplementaries not relating to the primary. Now, if the member has questions about other announcements, that would be within scope, but this would seem to be without.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c5c9e7cff344216b55e61be3af810a7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was only one supplementary\u2014probably the last one\u2014and the question that\u2019s just been asked is most certainly relating to this. The question was about the effect on ratepayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e7e684c5de346f3a83db0c2f5104b7a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: No, the question was about announcements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5e34145598a4e44bfae195e59c2bd8f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK. I\u2019ll do what I did yesterday and give the member the opportunity to ask it with a slightly different focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246f0fda30a3b4acc9f72584e0f503c0a\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What impact will this announcement\u2014that being Local Water Done Well\u2014have on ratepayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc50b0f0575f4bdf826484be5031ea7d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yeah, I see the point. Have a think about it, and maybe move on to another question. The Minister can\u2019t really reflect on how ratepayers feel about the announcement. The effect of the announcement might be a different matter. So I\u2019m sorry, if we\u2019re getting all pedantic about the words, which we appear to be, then we need to think about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022182fb27d88cc47229a19d99be779ba3e\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What will be the financial implications of this announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b1f16b77a4c4795af427e4c426b3489\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Today\u2019s announcement is great news for ratepayers. Local Water Done Well will provide lower costs to New Zealand councils for financing than could have been achieved under the previous Government\u2019s three waters reform, which we swiftly repealed to restore local control of water assets to communities. It will do this with the New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency being able to immediately lend to water CCOs. This financing is available as of today and means that communities will have the flexibility and the tools they need to meet their unique needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd26b3a2aa4f400899a908effda703bb\u0022\u003ELan Pham\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister include in his announcement that out of the only 182 submissions who were able to submit as part of the truncated 10-day deadline, only 19\u00A0explicitly supported the bill, 18 percent of councils missed out on even having their voice heard, and of those who did, all of them submitted that \u201Cthe cost and resource implications are both unclear and significant for councils, making it challenging to plan or fund the reforms\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a4272b806f64d6886fb135dc64f4b4f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just if we\u2019re getting all pedantic about what goes into questions, I\u2019d suggest that members look at Standing Order 390. Much of what was just said would not comply with that Standing Order. But it has to be said, to make the question reasonable, and I think that\u2019s the judgment that has to be made here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022058a96ddcfe749d8b8ce828e85e0d4c4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member\u2019s discussing the bill, which was before the House, which relates to water service delivery plans. The announcement made today is about the financing models which are now available for councils to be able to invest sustainably into their water services and actually make it happen and get things done. So that\u2019s what this Government has done with Local Water Done Well. We\u2019ve got a plan, we\u2019ve got the financing, and now it\u2019s up to councils to take the leadership to ensure that they can deliver for their local communities. What we campaigned on, we\u2019re delivering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f2202e38189431db6285c6d86d871d8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5db6677e1f046ee9cf93b1b98393b36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5db6677e1f046ee9cf93b1b98393b36\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Can he guarantee that the proposed review of the M\u0101ori and Pacific Admission Scheme, which has admitted more than 700 M\u0101ori and Pasifika students to medical school in the last 10 years, will not lead to its disestablishment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6d36ffd26874e719c99301184c4d90d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6d36ffd26874e719c99301184c4d90d\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Associate Minister of Health) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Health: As part of our coalition agreement with ACT, we have agreed to review the M\u0101ori and Pacific Admission Scheme (MAPAS). This review is yet to begin, and no decisions about terms of reference have been made. That\u2019s because we have been laser-focused on addressing the financial challenges left to us by the botched merger of Health New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d3f4e44f6b246a894c51c18592cd7e5\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the associate health Minister that the M\u0101ori and Pacific Admission Scheme is an example of \u201Clazily looking at everyone through the lens of race\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219355f1d24da434d8c6215e108694d49\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on behalf of the health Minister, what I do agree with is the review of MAPAS in line with the coalition agreement. When you think about it, what is wrong with reviewing a programme to ensure it\u2019s meeting its objectives? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ae64ed5758e4c80b475b514c96f9d50\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: Does he still believe that \u201Cif you\u2019re treated in a culturally competent context, you get a better outcome.\u201D, and, if so, what is his plan to get more M\u0101ori doctors into the workforce, following the review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022085f777c5edd4362a6e4e0c1f0a2ec0d\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t want M\u0101ori to do well. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c61418cb89404c61b8ed8293c099483a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, all right. We\u2019re not going to have outbursts like that, and I\u2019d ask the other side of the House to keep those interjections rare and reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cf86dc869684bd4a068fac408479269\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Health, we don\u2019t accept the poor outcomes for M\u0101ori in health, unlike the last Government. That\u2019s why we\u2019re focused on ensuring we lift health outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori and Pasifika and our communities in need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e174039bbfcf46498fb41b94d44eedfb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister as to whether his inspiration comes from over a hundred years ago when the then Minister of Health, who was a M\u0101ori called P\u014Dmare\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d15504d65b0f485da9dccc2f5121c386\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Sir Apirana Ngata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022622f6e9ac9214392b624f6c42c8436b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, we\u2019ll just start again. Now, Dr Webb, you know that\u2019s a rule: you don\u2019t speak while someone else is asking a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d628bf186579456a882defb4b9e2edee\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, don\u2019t worry\u2014I can handle him in my sleep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e958416bfdb14e1298c1190f5444be16\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know you can handle it, but I\u2019d like you to start the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd6782ffa5b4b76b32c01faf31a2c48\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister as to whether his inspiration is a former brilliant Minister of Health\u2014who was a M\u0101ori, back over a hundred years ago, called P\u014Dmare\u2014who brought modern medicine to M\u0101ori, and is that his intention in 2024, \u201925, \u201926?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a009562cf2d4dc6b361087ad3e23560\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Health, our aspiration is to grow a domestic pipeline of representative workforce for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2aeaad233f14ffabe079d2e08bcbb01\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022835fd2ce0c554c3cad6c3932fef9899c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022835fd2ce0c554c3cad6c3932fef9899c\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Meitaki maata, Mr Speaker. Does she agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement, \u201CThis is a country where our economy is in real trouble. This is a country where we cannot deliver health and education services as well as we need to\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00222cd158874d084c7b96d8e5f5ed20e154\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cd158874d084c7b96d8e5f5ed20e154\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: Yes. We inherited an economy in recession, a broken health system following a botched merger, and an education system that has been failing too many children for too long. But good news: we have got a plan to turn things around. We\u2019re fixing education, we\u2019re fixing health, we\u2019re growing the economy, we\u2019re reining in wasteful spending, and we\u2019re reducing the amount spent on external consultants, unlike members opposite, who seemed to outsource\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022937cbbd906cd4d22a12b65371e94c3dc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. That\u2019s enough, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a1f80d9f86745e6b775139f15c8d483\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How does stopping the construction of schools, hospitals, and houses, when 6,000 people in the construction industry have lost their jobs, help the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f26d51542ee47c293a0279ccc3bd9d9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Finance, we\u2019re not stopping the construction; we are actually getting on and fixing the fundamentals in this economy. We inherited an economy that was in recession, interest rates that were at record highs, and inflation was well outside the bounds. The previous Government was addicted to spending. We are turning this country around, unlike the mess we got left behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1aba9f183094c9091e5af367200f22d\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What estimates has she received of the cost to New Zealand businesses and the economy of the loss of rail capability on the Interislander ferries, given those ferries currently carry over half a million metres of train freight per year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e37309c30a2422b9117d12d8abfbc73\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Finance, I\u2019m not sure if she has realised, but the ferries are still operating, providing freight services between the North and South Islands. What we are doing is going through a process to secure their resilience into the future, but, as KiwiRail has made very clear, those ferries are safe to operate until at least 2029.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f31207bb5dd43be97ac631de7167af8\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Meitaki ranuinui, Mr Speaker. What steps is the Government taking to address the critical funding shortages faced by Hato Hone St John ambulance service, which have led to the impending national withdrawal of labour of over 2,500 ambulance officers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022566398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219db28a9c7074814a2dc53ed58387e07\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Finance, I encourage the member to put questions on specific issues like that in writing, but what I would say, though, is that we\u2019ve inherited a really tough situation in our health system left behind by a previous Government which decided that the best time to reorganise a health system was during the middle of a pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d01d06f45a5f425298af7d79bb9731bb\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Are they not delivering in health because her Government is leaving clinics like those in Dargaville, Wellsford, Kenepuru, Napier, and Rotorua unstaffed overnight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e8153bf19c042f985a58233e9da59a1\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Finance, we have inherited a mess when it comes to our health system, and this Government has a plan to turn it around; unlike the previous Government, who decided the best time to reorganise the health system was during the middle of a pandemic. It\u2019s unbelievable the mess that was left behind and the challenges that this Government is having to clean up, but, unlike them, we\u2019ve got a plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022399f2ea410f64a4d9421dc6ea5ac849e\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that T\u0101kai, which has shut down because of her cuts after 20 years of social service, is a cash cow, and what does she say to the tens of thousands of parents who have benefited from their support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383dd8fb71294de7ba3a125c9ed7807b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, on behalf of the Minister of Finance, we have inherited a number of challenges as a Government, which we are having to clean up with the mess left behind by the previous Government. They were spending like drunken sailors, they were borrowing, they had interest rates and inflation through the roof, and this Government has been elected to fix this economy, to ensure our public services are delivering on the front line for New Zealanders, but we have a huge mess to clean up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba94506768874f399d857491f180ad63\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How does giving the tobacco industry a $216 million tax break, leaving less money for health, help the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c42f0af3af0448eb954ab05d723f121\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on behalf of the Minister of Finance, there was a range of assumptions in that particular question, but what we are very focused on is reducing smoking rates. We\u2019ve got a plan to address that on this side of the House, but we\u2019ve also got a range of challenges that we need to sort out, and we\u2019ve been elected to fix it. If that last Government were still in charge, they\u2019d be spending more, they\u2019d be taxing more, and delivering less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9533b7d954d4fd8b415cbc520c0b8d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That member, in his answers, has largely attacked the former Government. And I have tried not to intervene, to try not to interrupt and disturb the dignity of the House, but he\u2019s continued to do it, and you\u2019ve said repeatedly that it\u2019s inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfd286cb3926455a9cd398784a773a84\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think the point is that the member himself took a point of order before to say that words matter, and they do. And I\u2019ve also in the past said it\u2019s not unreasonable\u2014and other Speakers have said this before me\u2014for Governments to refer to previous administrations. It\u2019s a matter of how that is done, and I think saying that a circumstance was inherited hardly breaches that particular provision. But I would suggest the Minister makes his answers slightly briefer or offers them more briefly than he has been at the moment. Have we got any further questions on that? No? Good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ca9e7a416ee4578b4d1f9d6d803862f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1b5881235dd46559110085c713d0749\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1b5881235dd46559110085c713d0749\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What steps is the Government taking to support people on the jobseeker benefit into work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e54aed54ae2c4cd996745664fe7d486c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e54aed54ae2c4cd996745664fe7d486c\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The coalition Government has delivered a series of initiatives to support job seekers into work. Recently, we established a new over-the-phone case management service for 4,000 young job seekers and expanded the number of places for young job seekers in community-led employment programmes with coaching, by 2,100. We have also introduced work check-in seminars that job seekers must attend within two weeks of coming on to benefit and again after six months. Our Government is working hard to make changes to the welfare system to ensure New Zealanders are able to reap the rewards and opportunities of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224332fc379db24098826878c56b7ac557\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What are the key features of the community coaching the Minister has announced as part of the Government\u2019s Welfare that Works? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1c3f54f06414cfc8cf156073c377538\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: This is our Government\u2019s new approach that will see more funding for community organisations with a proven track record of supporting young people off welfare. This will see more young people getting a needs assessment, a job plan, and tailored support, including job coaching, to help them access employment opportunities. This programme highlights our Government\u2019s commitment to putting young people on a pathway to a better future through work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206c26eef813144b48cb4a8fb774d41cd\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Minister chosen He Poutama Rangatahi providers for this programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296dc64d3967b4f41b6986556b0e5becd\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Five hundred places for the community-led programmes will be with a selection of He Poutama Rangatahi which was launched by the previous National Government in 2017 for people aged 18 to 24 who have been on jobseeker support longer than a year. We know that 77 percent of participants in this programme are M\u0101ori. I am concerned about the increasing number of M\u0101ori job seekers. Community coaching delivered through He Poutama Rangatahi will help young M\u0101ori improve their employment opportunities and reach their potential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce3049833b8a43ebbee4543e7cc2cf6a\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Why is additional support for job seekers needed now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b630f969704bdbbb6473c851d70858\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The challenging economic situation we have inherited inevitably means that job seeker numbers were expected to increase until January 2025, before decreasing. We know job seekers are vulnerable to tougher labour market conditions, which is why our Government is working hard to make our welfare system proactive in helping as many job seekers as possible in the current economic climate. Even though we have a challenging economic environment, our Government will not stand by and allow New Zealanders to languish on welfare and waste their potential. We are acting now to support job seekers into work so they can experience the independence and opportunities that work provides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5d9d6c641fa4b72b49f4c985af7d666\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept raising a child is work; if so, why do parents face work obligations rather than being allowed to raise their children the best way that works for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f6a03737bc34889a1896fb06dac5e96\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: We are focused on supporting people off the jobseeker benefit and we want to see fewer children being raised in benefit-dependent households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022010b904e6442419f9044082fea8a12f1\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept raising a child is work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc9ed223b0048a9909ef030a22dfd41\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, and there are many parents who work and raise their children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022173f3b8062a246d0a362746ecd2f9008\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I cannot see how that second supplementary was being addressed when the question was whether she considered it to be work. It was very, very narrow and she just said that there are many parents that work\u2014that\u2019s very, very unrelated to the actual, very narrow content.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a702b2866f00429f8ad75ba671246e5f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no. The actual question was \u201Cdoes she support\u201D, and the answer came \u201Cof course\u201D, and then with the backup behind that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228804b19c727a42cc977f307ac4c5438a\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. Kahurangi asked whether the Minister accepted that raising a child is work. So the Minister didn\u2019t address the question because she talked about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb92e6ef61c4ce49ec3de967396acb1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the answer was \u201Cof course\u201D. And then an explanation that many people not only do that but also have other jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224485427620ff4b3c981424c539b09dce\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022784e8951a1324144b2124ebb0fdcca95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022784e8951a1324144b2124ebb0fdcca95\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Do recent unemployment figures show New Zealand is back on track; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022b81ef51010a842ed950a63ee3c719266\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b81ef51010a842ed950a63ee3c719266\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Our coalition Government is getting New Zealand back on track, and, as I\u2019ve acknowledged before, too many New Zealanders have been denied the independence and opportunities that work provides. We\u2019ve inherited a low-growth economy from the previous Government, which, unfortunately, means rising unemployment. That\u2019s why we\u2019re implementing a more proactive welfare system to support people off benefit and into work. In the six years before we took over, the number of people receiving the jobseeker benefit increased by 70,000, or 57 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c37cc731f541199bc314187f056aeb\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealand be back on track when, on average, every month since she\u2019s been in office there\u2019s been an additional 1,000 people out of work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293a4092ba90d404aaccbd2882c8235f2\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I explained, unfortunately we inherited an economy that saw the previous Government absolutely mismanage the economy, and, unfortunately, New Zealanders are paying the price. For every New Zealander that loses a job right now, it comes back to the broken economy that we inherited and the damage that that side did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022402402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ec6a1ddf91f44ebaf7e2930969a18c3\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider M\u0101ori employment rates to be back on track when, under her watch, in just nine months, M\u0101ori unemployment has increased from 8.2 percent to 9.1 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b04e8c0e0a148638a99386b66fe3ec7\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, the economic conditions that we have inherited mean rising unemployment. We have seen the unemployment rate rise\u2014fortunately not as far as those forecast\u2014and the job seeker numbers are, of course, getting worse. That is the reality of the economy we have inherited. Our job is to fix it. That\u2019s exactly what we are doing, because we want to see more New Zealanders and more M\u0101ori in work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7cd3aa3022f4be29ceadc1b1426c755\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider Pacific employment rates to be back on track when, under her watch, in just nine months, Pacific unemployment has increased from 6 percent to 8.3 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cc81a40dc8f4bbc9bed14d7869ce463\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell that member what this Government won\u2019t do with Pacific unemployment: we will not oversee an increase in six years of 93 percent in Pacific unemployment\u2014that\u2019s outrageous, and that\u2019s your record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1804e17321f49bebfb66dc2fd6073dc\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell us how she can say youth employment is on track when recent figures show that youth unemployment has increased from 15.1\u00A0percent to 20.7 percent just in the last June quarter of 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022257266dc26c44d92987bb14be8808fa3\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m pleased that that member is finally interested in youth unemployment, because what we saw, unfortunately, was a welfare system stagnating so much that a young person who goes on to benefit under the age of 25 now is forecast to spend two decades on welfare. That\u2019s the record of that member. We\u2019re not standing by to watch it, which is why we are taking action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b88af57d3df44e1ad822cf14d2cfd53\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have any plan to get people into work, or is she just planning for the figures to get better once a whole lot of Kiwis move to simple, old Australia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a83e2075b33648408702a9861bd32905\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very proud to again put on record the changes this Government has made to reduce the number of job seekers by 50,000 by 2030. We have made sure that the sanctions regime is utilised and people are clear about their obligations to look for work. We have introduced a work check-in within two weeks of someone going on to the jobseeker benefit, and again after six months. We have increased case management, and, for young people, 4,000 young people will now get case management over the phone. We have also, last week, increased the number of young people that will get access to the very successful He Poutama Rangatahi programme launched by National in 2017, including community coaching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227003fa701d9847b1b3e31c480f1fd3a9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Building and Construction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00227570a5b7b93547b8a8df40d99efd21ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227570a5b7b93547b8a8df40d99efd21ff\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: Why is the Government reviewing the earthquake-prone building legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022050d2261d03f41dfa673ca543ce47312\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022050d2261d03f41dfa673ca543ce47312\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy as part of our broader aim of getting New Zealand back on track. The earthquake-prone building system attempts to manage risk by requiring earthquake-prone buildings to be remediated by set time frames. However, many building owners are currently unable to meet deadlines due to high remediation costs and excessive layering of regulations. This is why we have acted with urgency to bring forward the review to provide certainty and ensure we have a good balance between protecting lives and real-world costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cf3dd04ca03450b822fc523255688ab\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: When will the review into earthquake-prone building legislation begin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c98628d053e400299df464717a8495c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: We are moving at pace and the review is under way as we speak. This very afternoon, in fact, the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill will have its first reading in this very House. The bill extends the remediation deadlines for earthquake-prone buildings by four years to give temporary relief to Kiwis while the review is under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbae9658770644c8b7f0b487b467ab45\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: What will the review focus on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209b9fbf9ce244269b0136686cdc1a7c9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: The review will be extensive and report back in the first half of 2025, with four key foci. The first is the costs of mitigating earthquake risk and improving buildings resilience; the second, proposals for managing earthquake risk, including the effect on private property owners; the third, barriers and the types of incentives that would help building owners better manage seismic risk; and, fourth, changes that align with broader Government objectives, such as going for housing growth and rebuilding the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb47b33b75e6493bb2812c69ae8d2761\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: How can the public have their say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212df0e5f76b14041bd7622a3532845b8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: The public can provide feedback and share their views on the earthquake-prone building system via the building.govt.nz website or by emailing building@mbie.govt.nz or, of course, via the select committee process. This is all about listening to Kiwis to ensure that we have rules that work for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c210da7149db48209186f9f8b37c3d02\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Oceans and Fisheries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022 data-id=\u002299390f2323e14a3487c37f33c4e15880\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299390f2323e14a3487c37f33c4e15880\u0022\u003EDARLEEN TANA\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries: Does he agree with the statement by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment that the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill is a \u201CBill that is a case of a sledgehammer being used to crack a nut\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022af9e363c90b44fc88711ebc73f4e7982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af9e363c90b44fc88711ebc73f4e7982\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Deputy Prime Minister) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries: No. This bill responds to longstanding and widespread concerns by the aquaculture sector about the costs and uncertainty and mahi\u2014that means work\u2014associated with re-consenting processes for existing marine farms under the Resource Management Act. This process of re-consenting is inhibiting aquaculture growth. These marine farmers, many of whom are M\u0101ori, don\u2019t want the unnecessary costs and\u00A0uncertainty; they want to be allowed to refocus their efforts on investment, on jobs, and on exports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1c63e35985a45c885deba95b5c13c95\u0022\u003EDarleen Tana\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to councils and environmental non-governmental organisations who consider that the national environmental standards for marine aquaculture are working efficiently and effectively for re-consenting, and that a blanket extension of consents for 1,200 marine farms by a further 20 years is unnecessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfbcf3dcbd404ffb952d5aab4c7d4574\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, answering both those two questions, the person who first drafted the legislation is the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, namely Simon Upton. This was in 1991. He was told back then it wouldn\u2019t work, and that parts of it had to be fixed up to ensure that the kinds of exports which we desperately need, in a safe environment, went ahead. Of course, he\u2019s entitled to his opinion and so are those other councils, except they\u2019re dramatically wrong. Why do we have Ng\u0101i Tahu waiting all this time and all this money for a simple resource consent? Why do we have so many other precious operations which will bring wealth to our country, to all sorts of people\u2014and parallel the biggest mussel farm in the world now being built in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki, and the M\u0101ori people down there\u2014why don\u2019t we focus on that as being our purpose, rather than this constant big-city, small-minded complaint?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f923215ae1374e37aa3d816769f67330\u0022\u003EDarleen Tana\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile blanket-consenting 1,200 marine farms by another 20 years, pushing aside environmental standards and upholding the Crown\u2019s obligations to Te Tiriti o Waitangi with free-trade obligations, and particularly chapters that relate to mauri of marine ecosystems and kaitiakitanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022900756f94f7a43b886ec53c0ec8d6dad\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a matter of reconciliation, because when you stand up and by way of a question state a number of untruths and misnomers, it requires no response at all, other than to say this: this bill does not change or remove the existing Resource Management Act (RMA) provisions that manage consented activities. Existing marine farms will continue to operate under the conditions of their consent according to the RMA. Those are the facts that so-called critics should understand. Many marine farms\u2019 consents have conditions that are consistent with standard environmental practice under the RMA. The bill will also provide councils with a one-off opportunity to review the conditions of any consent extended in duration under this bill, to update them to improve the environmental management of the consented activity. But the CEO of the Ministry for Primary Industries is required to agree so that they do not stop people trying to progress in these difficult times from starting new jobs and new export industries and turning this economy around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b81158520b84aca839ed921417ac657\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022788a61af008746cc840a504712ca6b8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022788a61af008746cc840a504712ca6b8f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: What evidence does she have to substantiate her statement, \u201CFor too many years, Oranga Tamariki has been the cash cow for community service providers who say they will provide services, and then don\u2019t\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002275f05238bdae48b1a49761835e3d7eee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275f05238bdae48b1a49761835e3d7eee\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I refer the member to the $22\u00A0million Oranga Tamariki has already recovered from the last financial year where services weren\u2019t delivered, with more expected to come. In previous years, some providers have accumulated significant surpluses and this is unacceptable. Every cent of taxpayer funding that providers receive needs to reach the children and young people for its intended purpose, not sit idle in their bank accounts. I also refer the member to an email I received this morning from a lawyer who works in this space, who said, \u201CI have been appalled over the past few years at how much taxpayer money has been wasted on\u00A0agencies that make big claims yet deliver nothing but a glorified babysitting service.\u201D This is a Government that is making sure that that money will be used where it is needed,\u00A0with organisations that are struggling for funding when it\u2019s sitting in bank accounts unused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5c2990a9b784297a48266cfaf96b549\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: When she stated in her press release, \u201CThe funding they provide is for the care and protection of children in state care. Nothing more, nothing less.\u201D when referring to Oranga Tamariki, does this mean that family services that prevent children going into State care will no longer be funded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fad279572b904d5fb9f9761dab276a1e\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I instructed Oranga Tamariki to get back to their core purpose and do their core purpose well, which is in the best interests of children in care and that come to the attention of Oranga Tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022384aa9781732470d8963b391d9a79354\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does she consider that Oranga Tamariki has a role in assisting families, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and family groups at the earliest opportunity to meet the needs of their children and young persons; if not, who holds this responsibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a763820bf6b04bff8ecfb89d8d57e98c\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, but it\u2019s not just up to Oranga Tamariki to fix this problem; it\u2019s up to all of Government agencies and also society itself. Step up when you see something is wrong with our young people. Speak up when you see something is happening with our young people. Don\u2019t just rely on Government to fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289b9195254af445e8eb9139293552126\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that the previous statement is one of the statutory purposes of Oranga Tamariki in the Act, and, if so, does she intend to repeal the purpose of the Oranga Tamariki Act along with section 7AA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7e07067f88a44b0acacdadb3cfc242e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister may like to comment, but it\u2019s probably answered pretty much in the previous answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204592a09dd1742939900ef02ad40325a\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Oranga Tamariki\u2019s job is to protect the children in their care and to make sure they\u2019re protecting any children that come to their attention with reports of concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df7848bf659c4364afa8cb7cef46048a\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I think we\u2019re dancing around here. The point the Minister made was that Oranga Tamariki would only fund children in State care. They would not be funding children and their families in order to provide a prevention service\u2014she stated that. So my question to her was: how can the purpose of the Act be fulfilled if she\u2019s not taking that preventative action?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a575efff5a74445c9ca44fb95114da0b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, my recollection is that you asked her what was the purpose of the Act, and you outlined some views there. The Minister\u2019s answer to you started with \u201CAbsolutely\u201D, and I think to then have another question that questions the answer needs to be a little clearer than perhaps it was put. So without loss of one of the party\u2019s supplementaries, try and put it a different way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ea8c5beef7541d9ad494bf44229940c\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How can Oranga Tamariki fulfil their statutory requirements to act at the earliest opportunity to meet the needs of children and young people if they are not funded to undertake preventative services that would occur before a child or young person enters into State care? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022676859abe0c6466ead3f47c737c8e8dd\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: There are many ways a child can come to the attention of Oranga Tamariki, not just being placed into State care. And when a child is brought to the attention of Oranga Tamariki, it is their responsibility to intervene as early as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d9169e772184131965d63866128f1e1\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Zoe Hawke, the chief executive of E Tipu E Rea Wh\u0101nau who says of the cuts to their services, \u201CThe core of our mahi, the core of our work is prevention, preventing uplift \u2026 We have prevented so many uplifts, unfortunately we may not be able to do that any longer.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276ef2a39e6414693818ea0583b10cbe6\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t comment on individual contracts without that information in front of me\u2014but if you\u2019d like more information, please put that in writing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceb084c8308542d198b4a3b2354dacef\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Can she reassure New Zealanders that there will not be an increase in Oranga Tamariki uplifts as a result of her cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ffdf1d208424f73a355dc09b6f3ad21\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot make guarantees about anything. What I can guarantee is that Oranga Tamariki will get back to their core purpose, which is the care and protection of young people in their care and children that come to their attention. If a child is unsafe and needs care and protection, that\u2019s what will happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282a09bfa977f4ca7901a638fcef11648\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u00221ea41dd99bd947c5ad89b40852912fee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ea41dd99bd947c5ad89b40852912fee\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: What recent announcement has she made regarding key performance indicators for Oranga Tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00226575b6fb95104265a6d7f54c3c35e49d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226575b6fb95104265a6d7f54c3c35e49d\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E This morning, I wrote to the chief executive of Oranga Tamariki, instructing him to report to me every three months on key performance indicators. These include the frequency of social worker visits to children in care, the timeliness of responses to reports of concern, and whether or not caregivers feel supported by Oranga Tamariki. These areas are going to make the biggest difference to the safety and wellbeing of children and young people in care. Too many children in the care of their family or their caregivers die or are abused and neglected every year in this country. It is a national disgrace and I\u2019m not willing to accept it. As Minister for Children, it\u2019s my expectation that Oranga Tamariki is relentlessly focused on its core purpose of ensuring the safety and wellbeing of children in their care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222def8f9c128143da8d5e4cf8fdd10654\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister think it\u2019s necessary to have quarterly public reporting on these performance measures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022755bc2aff5e54f69876550ab9a37f3be\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Oranga Tamariki has oversight from the likes of the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor. However, these compliance reports are only provided to me once a year. Quarterly updates in areas that are most vital to ensuring the safety of children will allow me and the public to identify earlier any areas where Oranga Tamariki is not meeting expectations. This will mean that we can address any issues as they arise, rather than waiting for a yearly report to find out what is going on and needs to be fixed. Providing greater transparency and accountability will give Oranga Tamariki the focus it needs to ensure it\u2019s delivering on its core purpose, which is keeping children and young people safe in their care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b72c7a12f1c6490a89ad510142b0b851\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this accountability and transparency so important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286ac4adddfb54511879c01c12bae1602\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, things need to change. When a child is killed every five weeks in this country and so many more are abused and neglected by those who are meant to care for them, then a new approach is desperately needed. By making Oranga Tamariki report every three months and making these reports public, it will give Oranga Tamariki the focus it needs to ensure that it is delivering on its core purpose: keeping children and young people safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b2776896fb743c9bc732cf121a238d5\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: Why is supporting caregivers one of the Minister\u2019s priorities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c4f411dbb254445807a84b4ad4c75b6\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that many children and young people are not able to live with their immediate family. For whatever reason, their home is not a safe, loving environment for them. In these circumstances, caregivers, including wider family or wh\u0101nau, play an essential role. They open up their hearts and their homes to look after our most vulnerable. However, I have heard too many accounts of caregivers who say they do not feel supported by Oranga Tamariki. It is so important that we have skilled and experienced caregivers available for situations where a child is not able to stay in their family home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d7b342f92d842ecb513036188d4ffb2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Tertiary Education and Skills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022aead6fb5abf84d2db0232e54558bb866\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aead6fb5abf84d2db0232e54558bb866\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills: Does she stand by her statement that Te P\u016Bkenga is a \u201Cfinancial mess, drowning in debt of over $250 million\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00220fd64a590a8d49379854cd297a818f73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fd64a590a8d49379854cd297a818f73\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Te P\u016Bkenga has $8.426 million of commercial debt, $35.391 million of Crown debt, and $207.311 million of intercompany debt, amounting to a total debt of $251.128 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e333e70e4f944d3811374f342b24502\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister including the $150.6 million of internal debt, of intercompany borrowings, in that total debt figure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcbbd61ae09645bd9e8bb48b03ca9c63\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: If I can just help the member on that, it\u2019s $207.311 million of intercompany debt. When Te P\u016Bkenga was set up, different industry training organisations (ITOs) and polytechnics came in with different financial positions. Some came in with reserves; some came in with debt. Those with reserves have had to allow their reserves to go to offset commercial debt that was being held by the other institutions. That is real debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f74bdfffd74fff86c175d24babcdda\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she claim that Te P\u016Bkenga is awash with and drowning in debt of over $250 million when, at 30 June 2024, total external borrowings were only $45.3 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229646c5e9811c4cc2ba3bc2ef18f42297\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve outlined, there is $207.311 million of intercompany debt, which has been taken from reserves of some institutions and applied against the debt that other institutions have. As Te P\u016Bkenga is disestablished, that debt will have to be dealt with. It is real.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229483d92692004995810092cbc27927f3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she claim that Te P\u016Bkenga is $250 million in debt\u00A0when, of those total external borrowings, at 30 June 2024, of $45.3 million, $44.6\u00A0million is with the Crown and is non-interest bearing and only a tiny portion is external to the Crown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa409bdb7241428fa1951a92103ade7b\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Debt to the Crown is debt, and so we have significant debt being held\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a1513316480411b8bdeeb4f4d1928f5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me. We\u2019re going to hear the answer in silence, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3dfebeb9fc84b15a59eea5262864949\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Debt to the Crown is debt, just as intercompany debt is real debt. Te P\u016Bkenga has over $251 million worth of debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235ffabc61c6b46eca609ce4590d6c2c0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she tell Radio New Zealand this week that Te P\u016Bkenga was running a $77 million deficit when she told the House just yesterday that it is now forecasting a surplus of $28.5 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb0a07c2c87540c7bcd8812337e6dc80\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the half-year surplus. So when you run a polytechnic or an ITO your income comes early, your income comes in the first half of the year, your expenditure goes throughout the year. It will bounce around a little bit, but that $28 million was their half-year to date surplus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720d8fbe016c4b3fb92ecc766bd648c6\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government\u2019s reforms for Te P\u016Bkenga include improved financial literacy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd9eada11d7b42839c1f283854bbe2f8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff9e769c4bc404fbcad0c6ad18f62ca\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister been taking\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88fbb42d7bc4283bba51a52cdf19e0d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. We\u2019ll just wait for everyone to settle. If you could start the question again, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8c7a7f1132544309662491b53602343\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister been taking lessons in mathematics from the Minister of Finance, who seems to think that $12 billion of extra borrowing isn\u2019t going to tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e067c028607417c91d6ff00f3c57ec9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a question that the Minister needs to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e050795e15d943efb29335b09a54a07f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Meitaki, Mr Speaker. Why, given that she was advised that the benefits of the Te P\u016Bkenga merger would take at least five years to materialise, is she spending millions and millions, against the advice of Government officials and her own special advisers, breaking up an organisation that is finally posting a surplus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274bd8d71e5ef44018b4ad18b90e55546\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Te P\u016Bkenga hasn\u2019t posted a surplus yet. However, I can advise the member that in October 2022 a business case was done that was going to require Te P\u016Bkenga to have over $900 million spent on it to make it fully operational. The Minister at the time understandably rejected that. They came back and said, \u201COh, well, over five years, it will need over $400 million to be operational.\u201D Again, the Minister understandably rejected that. This is an organisation that would need to have hundreds of millions of dollars spent on it to make it operational, to have its systems interoperable, and I am not prepared to see that sort of money be used on setting up a structure when it should be used on tertiary education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bf1b211dc4c437e9a965f83322a6d97\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u002200d7802e81af4ee5bd554702676c264b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200d7802e81af4ee5bd554702676c264b\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What announcements has the Government made regarding the economic regulation of water services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002238a7215857d2469682eb7dd994fe2d39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238a7215857d2469682eb7dd994fe2d39\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E This morning, the Government announced that it is establishing a new economic regulation regime for water providers, overseen by the Commerce Commission. The new regulatory regime will ensure that water providers invest in the right infrastructure at the right time so that Kiwis can rely on having fresh, clean water at an affordable price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a454b151c89d45c5aaa9c9659b78135e\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What regulatory tools will be available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221890e97150fc447eb1a42e957fb7beb3\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve designed the economic regime to provide the Commerce Commission with a flexible range of regulatory powers. The initial regulatory tool will be the use of what we call information disclosure, which will require water providers to disclose important information such as the nature or state of their infrastructure and their financial situation. The Commerce Commission will also have the ability, if necessary, to set minimum or maximum revenue thresholds, impose quality standards or performance targets, and, ultimately, it could implement price-quality regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fa2e02e42044b83bbc92b11af335d44\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Labour did that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6ae1bcd98784a5dbdb160421a3de2f6\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: In addition\u2014no, it didn\u2019t. In addition, we\u2019ve allowed the commission to take a proportionate approach to regulation by categorising providers based on their sophistication, strategic importance, and size, Mr Twyford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022061a132251ab4fea9a9e02d07ba8d15d\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What consumer protections will be put in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aab6e3b963a4af4ab149a09272313c6\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: The new information disclosure will allow the commission to collect and analyse information relating to consumer protections, such as complaint procedures and customer engagement. If deficiencies are identified, the commission will have the power to require further protections. These could include strengthening complaints procedures or adoption of an external dispute resolution arrangement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf753e1ae1804d65b9b52403f987eb06\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: How will the economic regulation regime ensure appropriate investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213a8ccf7ef6f4e159fb20c16c223f9d7\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: We worked on this together, actually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a53bba913e44f5b59e799285e63474\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: But you should have listened, Mr Twyford; that\u2019s the difference. The difference is we\u2019re putting it in place; you talked about it. So an important ingredient is that the economic regime requires that the revenue collected by the water providers will be ring-fenced and only spent on investing in their water infrastructure. In essence, we\u2019re not going to allow spending to be directed into unrelated activities. Local Water Done Well not only keeps water in local ownership and control but also ensures that we get the right level of investment at the right time into our water assets so that Kiwis have access to high-quality, affordable water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f36f3d3edbfd41aab95b787e13ff5e54\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, who\u2019d have known that water could cause such unruly behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0e0f19e1f534205ac4d8dc78bf67481\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e21a14e746fb48b8a10df74bd9f7f0c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e21a14e746fb48b8a10df74bd9f7f0c9\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does she stand by her statement that \u201CSavings coming from getting money back where it hasn\u2019t been used are redirected to other front-line services\u201D; if so, how is the budget for contracted services being cut by $120 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00226109fb2b7bac4e0489a3809be4b71410\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226109fb2b7bac4e0489a3809be4b71410\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, yes. In answer to the second part of the question, the member is incorrect. The figure the member is referring to is $30 million a year over four years, which is not a cut. This is the amount Oranga Tamariki has forecast it will be able to recover from providers at the end of a contract period where they have not delivered everything we have paid for. If taxpayers pay for a service and they don\u2019t get it in full, I expect that money to be repaid. If this had been happening over the last six years, there would have been at least $132\u00A0million that could have gone to children, rather than letting some providers build up significant surpluses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ba76d2d48da48a8b8bcb871ba3d9e4e\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What evidence, if any, does she have to support the claim that \u201COranga Tamariki has been the cash cow for community service providers\u201D, and does she think that it\u2019s fair to accuse valued, not-for-profit community providers at the front line of banking funding, instead of caring for at-risk tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275864d09eb784633ada1d48a38faa09d\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to an answer from a previous question today. The member would have heard about the $22 million that Oranga Tamariki has already recovered from the last financial year where services weren\u2019t delivered, with more expected to come. In previous years, providers have accumulated significant surpluses, and this is unacceptable. Every cent of taxpayer funding that providers receive needs to reach the children and young people it is intended for, not sit idle in bank accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2fddbc14d8044ce81338032788ac281\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Will she visit community organisations like Family Start in Nelson and meet with staff and clients so that she can get a proper understanding of the critical work they do to support babies, children, and families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022768bde3e017f4112a18fa45a4490ffe7\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody is denying that they don\u2019t do a good job in those service areas. What we\u2019re saying is that they undelivered in the last financial year, and their new contract has been adjusted from the information we received from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221daf603875c9418fb4e515f818378b5a\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept the recent finding by the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor that Oranga Tamariki does not have the systems in place to properly monitor their own practices, and, if so, how can she be confident that each of the 332 front-line service providers who have had all or part of their funding cut have been evaluated fairly and accurately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bf9eb17341d4743b3defdaaec0ef56d\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: All decisions are at Oranga Tamariki level, but I instructed Oranga Tamariki to do a thorough process of checking through contracts to make sure we were getting the services that we were paying for and make sure that we were actually targeting the right areas for the care and protection of our young people, and I believe they\u2019ve done so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245774eac9ec94fc6ad4eb9cec542b3c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister whether she will thank the questioner for conceding that Oranga Tamariki does not have the systems in place to do the job properly and that\u2019s what you\u2019re setting about to fix?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c2b54dde8e4e6a8dd141a5a72338c6\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. Over the years, Oranga Tamariki has not performed as well as the public would expect. I am now setting expectations that they achieve the right goals and that they\u2019re making sure they\u2019re spending taxpayer money wisely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228db11502efee4f00acf7b2cc87e1be3c\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Will the $14 million cut from Family Start Nelson be redirected to other front-line services, and, if so, which comparable service in Nelson is being funded to fill this gap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1105aea3aa849f3863e3bb0ac18d421\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I believe we\u2019ve already spoken about that provider previously, where they did not deliver the full services that they were paid for. Their funding has been adjusted based on the information they provided to Oranga Tamariki, and Oranga Tamariki will make sure that that money is not sitting in a bank account and that it is going to a provider that can actually provide a service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229854c06fdf8648e4a849c831185f8758\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that the cuts to Presbyterian Support South Canterbury\u2019s funding mean that \u201CThere will no longer be any free counselling services available within South Canterbury\u201D, and, if not, why is she comfortable with creating these gaps in front-line service provision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259718668c7e6415a890e5c1daa2a7fb9\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot make an answer on information I don\u2019t currently have in front of me. If that member would like information on that specific question, please put it in writing. But what I would say is we are making sure that every dollar of taxpayer money that is being spent is actually going towards a service that is being provided to our young people who are in the care and protection of, or the attention of, Oranga Tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cb20fa0984843d9a72fe2445831ff5d\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How can she continue to claim that savings are being redirected to other front-line services when the Government is simply cutting the budget for contracted services by $120 million to help fund their tax cuts for landlords?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224375d0d4cf3843ba85a451d72c5c1963\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the last part of the question renders it somewhat out of order. Just ask the question without the extra bit on the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ce9eb8849b24be5ba5676c79c0c476b\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. How can she continue to claim that the savings are being redirected to other front-line services when the Government is simply cutting the budget for contracted services by $120 million and putting it back into the overall bucket?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7be50d0e95a499691a6bff5af417d05\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I can stand here and say that because that is not what is happening. That money is not going back into the main Budget; that money is being redistributed back to front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232d5f4b4825c403f83318337ca13b39b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That brings to an end oral questions. We\u2019ll just take a minute while members leave the House quietly and quickly, without conversations on the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e11624687514d8e83a692b8683ea07b\u0022\u003EBuilding (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e1fec19970c4b65b2f10905fa746be0\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00227e64e7d6992e4bd8a6ad83decf9ffd2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e64e7d6992e4bd8a6ad83decf9ffd2f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I present a legislative statement on the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022819612882bc042e384503a4e25f45906\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d93e70ce378448339dbed2d51fd24dea\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Transport and Infrastructure Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 31 October 2024 and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI would now like to outline the key changes contained in the bill. They cover three areas: earthquake-prone buildings, most obviously, as the name suggests; the building warrant of fitness scheme; and changes that could be characterised as minor or technical in nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe first is extending earthquake-prone building deadlines. I am delighted that today the Government is taking steps to provide more certainty and clarity to New Zealanders about the earthquake-prone building system. This is an issue that affects New Zealanders up and down the country in large cities and small regional towns alike. Collectively, there are approximately 5,000 earthquake-prone buildings in New Zealand and, unfortunately, in many cases, these are sitting empty and derelict, sometimes for up to years at a time. Empty, derelict buildings can be dangerous, but they are also a handbrake on growth and development and can suck the life out of a town or city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe Government is focused on reinvigorating our cities and regions to support economic growth. To do this, we need an earthquake system that balances the safety of life with the real-world costs and barriers of remediating earthquake-prone buildings. That is why we have commenced a review into the earthquake-prone building system. The review aims to provide building owners with more certainty and better incentivisation to remediate or demolish their earthquake-prone buildings so that Kiwis can safely live, work, and play in vibrant towns and cities. I do want to acknowledge the history of the legislation that is being amended and, most particularly, to acknowledge the tragedy of the lives lost in the Canterbury earthquakes. Of course, earthquakes in this country prior to that time and, of course, those that have happened since, no doubt will continue to afflict our shaky isles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThese are not easy matters and, of course, we need to take a balanced, nuanced approach. I acknowledge all those in this House who, in previous capacities and those in the communities who have worked hard to provide as much assurance and comfort and, of course, worked diligently in good faith to provide the best possible system that we could have in this regard. I acknowledge those who already have constructively engaged on the subject, be it in central government, including across the aisle, and local government too, and, of course, building owners and other players, key players, in civil society throughout this land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EHaving said all that, the current system attempts to manage risk and, in some cases, successfully does manage risk by requiring earthquake-prone buildings to be remediated before set deadlines. However, in some cases, the system is not working as well as it had been hoped, and the reality then is that many buildings are not able to be remediated. Around 150 buildings have already failed to meet their remediation deadlines and many more are unlikely to be remediated, I\u2019m told, due to high seismic strengthening costs and other barriers. The Government\u2019s review into managing seismic risk will take a fresh look at the system, but, in the meantime, there are nearly 500 buildings with deadlines rapidly approaching. While this review is under way, it seems to me sure only fair that we extend the remediation deadline for these buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to provide clarity and certainty to building owners and territorial authorities about the obligations\u2014local councils themselves often being owners of such buildings, of course\u2014while the review and any subsequent changes take place. Of course we don\u2019t prejudge the result of that review, but we hope, of course, that we will receive many sensible suggestions for change that might be made as a result of the review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ETo achieve this, in the meantime, the bill, once it is passed into law, I hasten to add, will extend by four years all earthquake-prone building remediation deadlines that had not lapsed before 2 April 2024, being the date at which the Cabinet decision was made that this measure should be brought to the House. The extension will provide temporary relief from legal compliance and the threat of enforcement while we work through the review. That being said, of course, building owners who are able to carry out remediation work are encouraged to get on and do this. Of course, we acknowledge there are motivations that outside the remit of Government, be it insurance requirements or the obligations on a landlord in relation to tenants, and of course the health and safety legislation and so on that would encourage people to get on and do work that they are able to do. The bill also introduces a one-off power to extend deadlines by up to two years, a further two years, by Order in Council. However, there are some controls around the use of this power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that the extension means that it is theoretically possible that life-safety risk in some buildings won\u2019t be addressed as quickly as originally intended. However, I do think it is very important to stress in the same breath that in many cases these buildings are not being remediated anyway. The simple fact is that building owners face difficulties that for some are so great that even under the existing time frames, building users would likely have been exposed to some of those exact same risks in any case. Once the amendment Act comes into effect, the extension will apply automatically to eligible buildings. I should qualify that point around automatic status, by adding that territorial authorities will be required to reissue earthquake-prone building notices to all eligible buildings and to update the register of earthquake-prone buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EPassing to the other matters in the bill, for the remainder of my time: strengthening the building warrant of fitness system or scheme. Following last year\u2019s devastating fatal Loafers Lodge fire\u2014again, acknowledging the human tragedy of those lives lost\u2014the previous Cabinet agreed to a set of no regrets actions to improve fire safety in buildings. This means that some changes that could be agreed relatively readily would be made, but, of course, without suggesting that there should not be other changes contemplated as well, and I\u2019ll touch on those briefly if I may within the time available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn the meantime, though, this bill will implement sensible changes to help protect the safety of building occupants, including in an emergency. Some of these occupants will be vulnerable people living in temporary or low-cost boarding house - type accommodation. A building warrant of fitness (BWOF) must include a certificate issued by an independent qualified person\u2014I\u2019ll just say IQP, going forward\u2014known as a form 12A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThere are many good people working hard and diligently in the space, and I want to acknowledge the Association of Building Compliance, which gathers together many such people, and the work that they are doing to help educate, advocate, and ensure certainty and consistency for that system. I commit to working closely with all those who share the aims of ensuring we have good, robust qualifications and recognition of people who have that level of expertise, important as it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EPeople within the building industry, therefore, have raised concerns about instances where forms were issued without the procedures in the building compliance schedule being fully complied with. This may mean that issues with specified systems such as fire and smoke control systems go undetected, which could place building occupants at risk and historically that is exactly what we have found, sadly not only with Loafers Lodge itself but, of course, in the subsequent investigation known as Operation Magazine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe Building Act does not currently state the duties of independently qualified persons and there are no specific offences for wrongly issued certificates. This bill fills that gap and introduces an offence for breaching the duty with a fine of up to $50,000 for an individual and up to $150,000 for a body corporate. This is a strict liability offence, but nevertheless, I think I\u2019m right in saying that there are defences available\u2014in any case, I\u2019m not able to go into that today. The new offence will also provide territorial authorities with tools to discipline and deter this misconduct. It will also help to ensure that IQPs are fulfilling their obligations under the BWOF scheme. The bill also increases the infringement fees to promote compliance with these obligations and better protect the safety of building users. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESome minor and technical changes now. Finally, there are some changes along the lines that stand-alone building consent authorities, currently just the one being Consentium, which does the work for K\u0101inga Ora, do not need to pay their fee directly to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment at the moment; indeed they can\u2019t. They have to go through their relevant territorial authority. We are removing that anomaly. We\u2019ll also remove the obligation for dam owners\u2014that is, owners of water storage facilities\u2014to display a copy of the compliance certificate in a prominent place on the dam, which is physically impracticable to do in many cases, but instead must simply forward the relevant certificate to the regional authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen finally, to clarify or meet the intent of the Building (Pools) Amendment Act 2016, we will exempt small heated pools, such as a spa, from the requirement for periodic inspection if they have a safety cover that complies with the building code. Finally\u2014finally, finally; my second \u201Cfinally\u201D\u2014a certificate of acceptance for building work that\u2019s issued by territorial authority need not also attract a building consent to regularise that retrospectively. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5a4d674175349c28c66976f204a66ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5a4d674175349c28c66976f204a66ae\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This will be a brief call from me, as the spokesperson for the Labour Party on building and construction, to set out the Labour Party\u2019s position on this. It will also give the House a sense of how eager we are to get into the detail of this bill in the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, chaired by the very able Andy Foster, and joined by representatives of all parties around this House, because this should be something that all parties have an interest in, and this should be something that submitters get to have a say on and that we get to work through some of these details, because it is of interest to all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe starting points and the principles that I will be considering when we look at this in more detail at select committee level is that no one should be put at undue risk due to the building that they are in. We have to be mindful that these rules were set up in the wake of the Christchurch earthquake and in the context of things like the Kaik\u014Dura earthquake, which represent real tragedies for New Zealand, and we need to make sure that these very real events, which happened in New Zealand and which caused loss of life, huge loss of property, and a huge cost to our national infrastructure, are provided for in our legislation and that we have these settings right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAt the same time, I think everyone in this House is incredibly sympathetic to the plight of those people who find themselves owners or responsible for buildings that are earthquake-prone, particularly in the context of residential homeowners and apartment owners in places like Wellington who are now faced with bills they simply cannot pay. So we need to be able to work our way through and find solutions which recognise the role of Government here in supporting people through this and the huge financial costs to them in a way that is safe and recognises that not everyone has access to information about the kind of buildings that they\u2019re in, especially when they\u2019re commercial premises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party is in opposition to this bill, but we are really keen to work through, at the select committee, some of the questions that we have. So I\u2019ll outline what they are, briefly, now. The first is that absolutely key to this whole regime is the idea that someone will need to pay for strengthening. Is that the Government? Is that private owners? Is that retrospectively the Government paying for private owners to enjoy the support of Government and not requiring them to bear any risk, or is there a role for local government here as well? All of those questions do not get answered if central government is unable to fulfil the role of holding to the remediation time frames that it sets, and so there is a question there about whether extending the time frames, essentially, rewards procrastination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat was a point made in media commentary by one of the Christchurch earthquake survivors, who commented and asked whether we are rewarding procrastination here if Government continues to kick the can down the road, and that is a question we have on our minds because we must send clear signals, not only to those homeowners and not only to the people affected but also to the local councils. There is a question of certainty around things like insurance and the costs spread around people if Government does not have hard deadlines in a case like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAnother question that we will be asking is whether the settings for homeowners who cannot pay are right and how we can support people through a really difficult time financially. Labour had a solution for this. I won\u2019t go into it as I don\u2019t have time, but solutions around lending to people and requiring them to pay it back only on sale or death might be something here that we need to look to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure that the select committee will have the opportunity to discuss this with submitters, because though this is relatively limited in scope\u2014this bill in particular\u2014we will attract a number of people who want to have their say on this issue, which brings me, in the final minute of my contribution, to the report-back date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe oppose the shortened report-back date. We would like to hear fulsomely from those submitters, particularly in local government, and the homeowners who are affected and the people who have been through these earthquake events before, their reasons about how these deadlines are important to certainty in their areas. We\u2019d also like to hear from property developers and people with an interest in other regions like Auckland who might oppose the rules on why they think the deadline extension is a useful thing. So we\u2019re keen to get into this at select committee, and there will be calls on this side of the House about the report-back date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fefe2b0383d549df98effe14662ac760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fefe2b0383d549df98effe14662ac760\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. My contribution actually has a certain amount in common with the previous speaker, Arena Williams. Being a representative of a part of Wellington, this is a bill that will directly impact and assist those who own buildings in Wellington that have been having a really difficult time financing meeting the standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a question that I\u2019m personally very interested in. I have lived in a heritage apartment building that was just sort of 1 percent above the acceptable new building standard (NBS); I think it was like 38 percent or something. But, interestingly, because it was on bedrock in Mount Victoria, it seemed fine over the last 80 years of earthquakes; whereas some modern buildings built on reclaimed land in Wellington that were at 100\u00A0percent of NBS didn\u2019t fare so well in the earthquake\u2014in fact, fared quite poorly. So I\u2019m really interested to understand how we can have earthquake standards that genuinely reflect the risk, taking into account more than just the building itself but also the ground conditions and whether that can be part of the solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Greens have actually long recognised\u2014in our arts, culture, and heritage policy\u2014that the earthquake-strengthening system for heritage buildings is cost-prohibitive and leads to buildings being demolished rather than remediated, which is not always a great outcome. So one of our policies had been just recognising that if we want to address this, this is one of those things that we address together as a community and as a country, and Government is well placed to help find collective solutions. It\u2019s going to be a similar situation with adapting to climate change and dealing with severe weather events. If we just leave it to individuals, a lot of people are going to be in incredible hardship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI have a constituent who messaged me specifically about the previous Government\u2019s assistance programme that was going to help with the cost of remediating building. She was actually writing on behalf of her mother, who also lives in the Rongotai electorate, who is on a fixed income, on a pension, has owned this apartment, it\u2019s her home, she doesn\u2019t want to give it up, and has found herself in a situation of needing to\u2014alongside the other owners of the building, spent an enormous amount, went through all of the paperwork, finally got through all the hurdles to apply for that assistance fund, and then just as that happened it was announced by this Government that they were cancelling the assistance fund. It may have been a small number of people\u2014and I agree that that fund hadn\u2019t gone far enough to address the problem and that something needed to be changed there, but, I think, for those people who had already put a lot of time and effort and emotional stress that they were suffering from going through this effort to try and access that fund, to have it taken away like that was unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThis legislation just extending the time frames doesn\u2019t address the issue of the compliance cost and of how we actually achieve safer buildings in a sustainable way. So that\u2019s something that I think we need to be able to tease out in the select committee process. We do support this at first reading and we\u2019ll have to see what comes out of that select committee process. I absolutely understand the discomfort with the select committee process being shorter. Ideally, it would have been longer than 2\u00BD months. However, 2\u00BD months is a lot better than 10 days, as has been the case for some other legislation we\u2019ve seen earlier this year. So we do understand that because of the need to meet the deadline and give certainty to so many building owners and so many communities, particularly here in Wellington and Rongotai but also right across the country in rural towns as well\u2014we can accept, I think the 2\u00BD-month select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAs has been said by the Minister, we can\u2019t really assess the risk of extending the time frames against a perfect scenario where all of those buildings were remediated by the time frames, because 80 percent of them were not going to be. But we do need to work together, I think, to find a truly sustainable solution that is going to look out for our people. We are a country that is very much affected by seismic risk. There are many other countries that have learnt to live with this. I hope we can get better building codes and better funding and better insurance options for people through this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6793f96d2eb4fa9b412ebaa98746fad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6793f96d2eb4fa9b412ebaa98746fad\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Much like the previous two speakers, I too am a member of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c1ceeae228b47ae92be2bb6c1754431\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Great committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c69b12c7db9447092bc924d2400d4fc\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014great committee\u2014and I suspect the following speakers from New Zealand First and National may well be members as well. I\u2019m looking forward to seeing this bill at select committee, and, therefore, ACT is proud to be supporting this bill past first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s a pragmatic bill that the Minister has brought forward. You know, there\u2019s a few things that need tidying up in our building legislation and this is seeking to address some of it, specifically the earthquake-strengthening issues that we have in New Zealand. There\u2019s a lot of angst out in the community, in small towns and large cities, about the current regime for earthquake strengthening and the time lines around that. So I congratulate the Minister on extending that to give some certainty to the industry, especially since making that announcement back in April that there would be some extensions available. I think this is going to be well received by building owners up and down the country who have been seeking some clarity. And clarity will be coming because local councils will be required to reissue their earthquake-prone building notices. So that means if you are a building owner out there and you\u2019re worried about how this is going to affect you, your council needs to be in contact with you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EThe purpose of a bill like this should be about improving safety and compliance, not making it harder. So, I think, having a review to actually reassess where we\u2019ve got to over the last decade with our regulations and the codes and practices of the building industry and the engineering fraternity, and the way they assess things such as the new building standard (NBS), and the way they use the national building code standard to actually assess the earthquake-prone or earthquake-risk elements of a building\u2014there\u2019s some great stuff happening in this review, and tidying up the other things that need tidying up in the Building Act at the end is a very good use of a bill like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EIn the confidence in the NBS ratings, I do think we have an issue that I believe needs to be addressed. As the previous speaker, Julie Anne Genter, mentioned, one point above the national building standard of 34 percent is the difference between an uncompliant building and compliant building. We need to have confidence that it is not being applied differently across the country by different engineering outfits, that there is some trust in a scheme such as that, because, you know, on one end, it can be that 33 to 34 is a requirement to remediate or not, but at the other end, the difference between 66 and 67\u00A0percent means that a bank might not lend, therefore you can\u2019t sell your building to someone who\u2019s unable to get a mortgage, and things like that. So these single digit changes in the rating of a building are very important and can lead to a massive change for a building owner. I think we need to have confidence. Building owners and the industry itself needs to have confidence in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ENow, as I say, this is tidying up some great things, which is great, but ACT sees a building industry that is proportionate to the risk. We don\u2019t want to have a ratchet effect of councils pushing up compliance, then engineers push up compliance, and then banks push up compliance and we end up over-engineering ourselves out of existence, to the point where, when our civilisation is dead and gone, they can see the expensive buildings that at the time cost a fortune and may have been great for archaeologists of the future to look at, but, actually, was that a good use of our funds on the day? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EA test of reasonableness would be greatly appreciated. We don\u2019t have the layers of protection that are just, like I say, ratcheting each other up. I mean, designers need to have confidence that what they are designing is actually going to leave them in a space where they\u2019re not over-burdening the client who then has to pay for this, but at the same time are providing the necessary safeguards to the occupants of the building, whether it\u2019s during the day or whether it\u2019s overnight. Because, I mean, if you are staying overnight in a building, you need to have a higher degree of confidence. I think there needs to be a cost benefit done in the entire building industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI commend the Minister and I commend this bill. I think it\u2019s a great start. I\u2019m looking forward to hearing about it in select committee. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00220e105362aaec4bc18b95aa9de5f447e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e105362aaec4bc18b95aa9de5f447e5\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. Like my colleagues on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2014a very good committee; a very hard-working committee\u2014I\u2019m also going to focus not so much on the other matters in the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill but on the issues around the earthquake-prone buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThis bill is good news because it\u2019s a pragmatic approach. It gives more time for building owners. As a Wellingtonian, I have spoken with a number of building owners, particularly people who live in apartment buildings in the central city, who are stressed out about the arrangements as they are at the moment, trying to work out how they can possibly afford to do the strengthening that needs to be done, especially when their insurance costs are also going through the roof. Also, those issues of certainty around regular changes, which we\u2019ve already heard\u2014as my colleague Cam Luxton has just said\u2014it\u2019s not just the confidence about the rating of a building, whether it\u2019s 33 or 34 or some other number; it\u2019s whether the standards will change over time. They\u2019re compliant at this point in time and then they\u2019re not compliant at some other point in time. So there are huge stresses that are involved there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ENot only that; the other point I might make is that if we want to densify our cities, if we want to have more people living in our central cities, one of the worst things we could possibly do is to undermine the confidence of the very people that we want to be living in those cities, because that message will go out to other people, who might think about living in central cities and they will say, \u201CNo, I don\u2019t want to live in an apartment building.\u201D So we have to fix this. This bill gives four more years to strengthen those buildings, and potentially another couple of years. \u201CFour more years\u201D\u2014it sounds a bit rugby-ish, doesn\u2019t it? Not a good thing to remember. That is not a good thing to remember.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI want to give a lot of credit to the Minister, the Hon Chris Penk, for this. Also, it was really good, in seeing some coverage of this, to see the \u201Ccredit where credit is due\u201D. They were actually the words that were used by one of my former Green colleagues on the Wellington City Council. So, well done to the Minister. But let\u2019s be clear, as we heard from the Hon Julie Anne Genter: this does not fix the problem. There is still a problem; it just gives more time to fix that problem. We live in a shaky country. In fact, some of us went down to the Crisis Management Centre earlier in the week, and we were reminded of the likely frequency of some major earthquakes in this country. We cannot just bury our heads in the sand and say, \u201CThis will go away.\u201D; it won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe have somewhere between 5,500 and 7,000 buildings listed as earthquake-prone nationally. I was interested to see that, in fact, while we\u2019re very, very conscious of it in Wellington City\u2014the rest of the region is added to that\u2014Wellington City only represents about 10 percent of those. There are three times as many in Auckland, which surprised me, but that\u2019s the way it is. It\u2019s a much bigger city, of course. Wellington City has always taken this very, very seriously. In fact, as a council, the council started doing assessments of earthquake-prone buildings way back in 2006\u2014obviously, before all the Canterbury earthquakes\u2014and, in fact, I can remember at one local government conference, Wellington City had just about finished its work when just about everybody else had barely started it on that particular score. Wellington had done more assessments than every other territorial authority in the country put together. So it shows that it\u2019s an issue which is taken seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI do want to use Wellington as an example, and also one other jurisdiction if I have the\u00A0time to do so, because it underlines the importance of this extra time. Wellington City has some 572 buildings on its earthquake list. For 229 of them, their yellow sticker turns red in 2027\u2014229 of them\u2014and if you include the ones between now and 2027, it\u2019s 305. So nearly all of them, or the vast majority of them, are in the next three or four years. It\u2019s not only a stress and a pressure and a financial pressure on the building owners but it\u2019s also a question of the capacity of the market, of the industry, of the experts, to actually be able to do the work that needs to be done in that short period of time. So the extra time is really, really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI said that more work needs to be done. So it\u2019s really great to see the Minister\u2019s review which is being done. I\u2019m sure\u2014the Minister said it\u2019s absolutely fine to hear this as well\u2014we will hear many out-of-scope submissions which are talking about things which are more than just the time table, but they will be valuable. There will be valuable information, because they will all be related to the issues around the earthquake-strengthening regime and what the challenges are, what can be done to make it better, and I think that those will be very, very valuable. So I\u2019m looking forward to that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIf I might finish off with just one other area which I\u2019ve also seen, I know how important this legislation will be to some of our rural and provincial towns, towns like Feilding, because giving more time changes the economics and allows people to get on with strengthening their buildings. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u002272c9c75313d546d4bb6318efd2ad6fd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272c9c75313d546d4bb6318efd2ad6fd1\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u0101 Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te rangi nei. Ahakoa te poto o t\u0101ku k\u014Drero, ka \u016B tika ki t\u0113nei kaupapa m\u014D te whakahaumarutanga o ng\u0101 whare e t\u016Bpono ai ka r\u016B whenua, me te takiw\u0101tanga o \u0113nei angaw\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker, indeed greetings to all of us in the House. I stand to give voice to the statements on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party today. Despite the brevity of my speech, I will engage directly with this topic for the safety of homes in the event of an earthquake, and the extent of the time frame.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI rise to take a short call on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori in support of this bill, to see it go through to the select committee process and stages. Some of our key focuses and interests, in awaiting to hear public consultation, is from a number of marae, as marae may be forced to be demolished if they fail to meet these deadlines. Extending time frames may save some marae from demolition, but it will not address the core issue, as other members have said across both sides, that many hap\u016B cannot afford to strengthen their marae. The Government should fully fund strengthening for marae.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EAnother issue I would like to raise is the bigger issue of all of this for us\u2014as a person who lives near their papa k\u0101inga and marae\u2014is the future safety plans in place for houses, and particularly for marae, in a course of natural disasters. We\u2019ve seen many marae, for the past couple of years now, getting hammered by natural disasters, yet they are the first place of response and locations during a natural disaster\u2014whether you are non-M\u0101ori or M\u0101ori. Knowing that marae are not just walls and windows but they are our museums, also making sure that there are right protections in place taonga tuku iho like carvings, tuktuku, poupou, and t\u016Bpuna artifacts that we would like to have consultation process on, and how the process will look like moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ESo we would like to have those conversations no matter the political party, as the safety of our people is paramount. So, in short, we support this bill to the select committee stage and we await to hear submissions from the select committee. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5354f44f75e4a1c987bb3f26a5fdd73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5354f44f75e4a1c987bb3f26a5fdd73\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to support this bill, the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Like most of the speakers before me, I will be focusing mainly on the earthquake side of this, rather than the other matters. This is a very important bill because it\u2019s going to help give us time to address some issues that have been building up for a while, but always at the heart of this we\u2019ve just got to remember that we\u2019re talking about buildings and earthquakes and the potential damage that can come from it. We\u2019ve all seen in recent times what can happen and we must always keep that in our minds, which is that it\u2019s a delicate balance at times to get between building something that\u2019s going to protect us in a disaster and the actual costs of strengthening the existing buildings. So we always must acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge my fellow committee members on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee: our great chair, Andy Foster; my other members Tom Rutherford and Cam Luxton, who\u2019s sitting up there; and Julie Anne Genter is still here in the House. I acknowledge also the speaker before from Labour, Arena Williams. It\u2019s interesting\u2014I\u2019m pleased to see that we have almost got unanimity within the House to support this bill through to select committee, with the one exception being Labour, which I find rather unusual, given that so far their speeches have pretty much been in support of what the goals of the bill are, to give us more time to do a better job, and yet they\u2019re going to vote against it. I just find that interesting, it\u2019d be fair to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EThe main reason we\u2019re giving more time is because I know the Minister for Building and Construction, the Hon Chris Penk\u2014who\u2019s doing a great job in a number of areas, I might add\u2014wants to try and bring some clarity to what is at times a confusing situation, and I\u2019ll use my own province of Northland as an example. We are not renowned for our\u00A0earthquake risk, and yet the current legislation is unclear as to where we stand on what we have to do in that space. So I want to bring clarity as to what Northlanders have to do to make their buildings safer versus other parts of the country which are more earthquake-prone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting; there\u2019s been quite a bit of commentary on the fact that the proposal for this extension of time until the whole review came from, for example, the Mayor of Wellington, Tory Whanau, when she said that she welcomed this review and as she welcomed the extension of the deadline. \u201CThis is an extremely complex issue. It\u2019s important that New Zealand has a system for strengthening buildings that is fit for purpose. The closure of earthquake-prone buildings come with significant social and economic costs, resulting in an often unaffordable and unsustainable position for building owners.\u201D, said Mayor Tory Whanau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EThen I also have another quote here from another mayor\u2014a deputy mayor in this case\u2014from the Manawat\u016B. Michael Ford said that the building and construction Minister Chris Penk had \u201Clistened to councils by providing a timeframe extension, which has helped take some pressure off. \u2026 There is not a one-size-fits all solution to this important issue facing our regions,\u201D Ford said, \u201CThe review will need to answer some fundamental questions about how this system could work better [in the future]\u201D. As a final comment, I would just note that the exceptionally outstanding MP for Napier, Katie Nimon, is quoted in her local paper as saying that the earthquake-prone buildings review being brought forward is \u201Cgood news for Napier\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003ESo I just think what this highlights is that this is an issue that needs addressing. We have a Minister that is listening, and I think that is what this Government is doing a great job of. We\u2019re listening to what the people of New Zealand want. They want us to review this, give us time to do it properly. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00227d25e1c1295e452097267f7a9ac1b2f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d25e1c1295e452097267f7a9ac1b2f7\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the chance to say a few words on this Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Thinking about this bill, and listening to some of the contributions, always reminds me of one of those frustrating but real facts about human beings, and that is our reliability, if not always in a valid way, to favour the immediacy bias, to always be thinking about what\u2019s right in front of us and how much it might cost, or what a hassle it might be, instead of actually putting the work into saving our own skins and doing what\u2019s best in so far as a safety issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs other contributors have also mentioned, the impetus for this current law is premised on the lessons we learnt from Christchurch. I know I certainly will never ever get out of my mind all of the sights and all of the sounds and all of the smells and all of the horrible things that I witnessed on that day in the city centre in Christchurch in 2011. Whilst nothing could ever have provided any forewarning, and there was no building code that would ever have prevented the CTV Building coming down and taking the life of my friend and workmate, I think it is up to the people who lived through that experience\u2014particularly some of the people who experienced real harm and have dedicated their time since then\u2014to campaign for better regulations and for better safety, particularly with buildings in what can only be described as a very earthquake-prone country that we live in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not to say that we don\u2019t also appreciate the fact that this is complicated and there are various considerations that need to be made. We\u2019re not supporting the bill, primarily because of a fundamental understanding that if you keep kicking the can down the road, nothing ever gets done. There will always be a myriad of considerations that need to be made, there will always be competing variables at play, but at some point you\u2019ve just got to get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to also note that whilst we talk about the fact that people should never be put at undue risk due to the buildings that they\u2019re living in\u2014and we talk about apartments if we talk about Wellington. Can I also just remind everybody that we also shouldn\u2019t be put at undue risk from buildings that we merely may be driving past, or we merely may be passing by just for a moment. It took me a long time to notice it\u2014years actually. Particularly I would notice it coming up to Wellington, walking in the CBD\u2014which is a novelty because we didn\u2019t have one for such a long time, or a concept of some sort of business district\u2014walking up the town, and, without even thinking about it, my first thought was always \u201CYou won\u2019t survive if you walk past that building\u201D, or \u201CThat won\u2019t last five seconds.\u201D You know, people that haven\u2019t seen it take it for granted. We have sayings about things being as strong as buildings or, you know, as safe as houses, and all these various other sayings that we\u2019ve learnt over generations to take as a truism\u2014and it\u2019s just not, when you see them fall down as easily as they can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo I think that it is incumbent upon the Government to look at different ways in which we can support\u2014and as my colleague Arena Williams intimated earlier, no one\u2019s saying that this is an easy solution or that there are quick fixes, but we are saying that the State and the Government probably do play some sort of role in ensuring that we can move forward. And we definitely need to move forward. This could potentially be the first of several different extensions, and before we know it we will be no further ahead and we will be regretting that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAlso intimated in a prior contribution from Arena Williams was the fact that she didn\u2019t quite have enough time to go through specifics of what the solutions to this were. But Labour\u2019s solution in Government was the Residential Earthquake-Prone Building Financial Assistance Scheme, and it has been cancelled by this Government. Whilst the member Grant McCallum, who made the contribution before me, found it somewhat perplexing that we weren\u2019t supporting this particular bill, I likewise find it somewhat perplexing that some things that could have been helpful and could have moved us along in a bit more steady way have been cancelled. But, nevertheless, this is the situation that we find ourselves in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI will watch with keen interest as it goes through the select committee stage, undoubtedly, and I look forward to hearing all the contributions from people with lived experience and all of the expertise that will be lent in that direction. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00227acd334c1fb84aa285195dbd126a0aaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227acd334c1fb84aa285195dbd126a0aaa\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I rise today to speak in support of the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. This bill addresses critical issues regarding the safety and economic viability of our buildings in the face of seismic risks. It aims to provide clarity and breathing space for building owners and territorial authorities as we work towards a more effective system for managing earthquake-prone buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EThe current system, implemented in 2017, aimed to reduce the risk to life by requiring the remediation of our most vulnerable buildings. However, it has become clear that this system is not working as effectively as intended. Around 150 buildings have already failed to meet their remediation deadlines, and many more are unlikely to be remediated, due to high costs and other barriers. With nearly 500 deadlines set to expire over the next four years, we are facing a potential crisis that could have devastating impacts on our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EThe key purpose of this bill is to extend the remediation time frames for earthquake-prone buildings by four years, with a limited power to extend deadlines by an extra two years. This extension provides clarity for building owners and territorial authorities, prevents clusters of expiring deadlines, and offers relief from enforcement challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EAlongside this extension, our Government is initiating a comprehensive review of the earthquake-prone building system, to be completed in the first half of 2025. This review will focus on costs, risk-management proposals, compliance barriers, and alignment with broader Government objectives. The bill also clarifies responsibilities in the building warrant of fitness scheme, improves the building levy collection system, and addresses inconsistencies in dam safety penalties and obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EWe are striking a critical balance between public safety and economic consequences. The devastation of the Christchurch earthquakes is still fresh in our national memory. We must do all we can to prevent such tragedy in the future. We must also face the very real economic consequences of overly burdensome regulations. Empty buildings in our city centres and towns don\u2019t just represent lost revenue; they represent lost jobs, lost community spaces, and lost vitality in our urban areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, this bill represents a balanced approach to a complex problem. It provides necessary relief and time for building owners and local authorities while work is done towards a more effective and sustainable system for managing earthquake-prone buildings. It\u2019s about finding the right balance between safety and economic sustainability. I urge all members to support this bill and I encourage them to engage constructively in the select committee process. The safety and prosperity of our communities depends on getting this right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022a60bdc1a5c0a4b369cfc80f930f047e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a60bdc1a5c0a4b369cfc80f930f047e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s actually quite tricky to speak on this bill because there are a few members in this House who have had firsthand experience of an earthquake, and the alarming thing is that the earthquake that I experienced and some others in this House experienced was a little one. Andy Foster mentioned that he\u2019s been in the emergency management bunker and has seen the projections. It doesn\u2019t give enough emphasis to the devastation that will hit New Zealand\u2014probably a real possibility that it will be this city\u2014and the catastrophic damage that will occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ETracey McLellan mentioned that we\u2019re all biased to kind of project our own experiences historically into the future and, therefore, if we\u2019ve lived for 30 or 60 years and have never really seen a major disaster, we assume we won\u2019t see one in the rest of our lifetime. We know it\u2019s coming, so the question is this: how do we strike the balance between life and prosperity? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI heard the member before me talk about the need to fill up vacant buildings and have bustling inner cities. That\u2019s all very nice, but when this earthquake strikes, if a building is earthquake-prone and we have a genuine earthquake\u2014a serious earthquake\u2014then some of those buildings will fall over and people will die. I know and have spoken to people who talk of the financial pressures, the stress, the anxiety, and the constraints on their lifestyle that earthquake strengthening causes, but if we leave people to entirely make their own decisions about the safety of buildings, there is never a good time. So we\u2019re not going to be obstructive on this bill; we\u2019re going to be constructive when it comes to looking at it in a select committee. But we can\u2019t accept, when we live where we do and we have the science that we have before us and we know the quality of the building stock, that it\u2019s a good idea to defer remediation of these buildings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe agree that a review of the relevant earthquake regulations and building codes is a good thing\u2014absolutely endorse that\u2014and with the somewhat binary nature of these questions where it\u2019s either a dangerous building or it\u2019s not, it may be that we do need to look at that. But if we sit on our hands, we\u2019ve been here before. The Christchurch earthquake was more than a decade ago. We know the problem. We\u2019ve been nudging people to do the right thing, and the Minister for Building and Construction himself\u2014and I\u2019ve a lot of respect for the work he\u2019s doing\u2014has said that \u201CWe encourage people to do this remediation work.\u201D, but on this side of the House, our view is that we can\u2019t just encourage; we\u2019ve got to compel. We might want to assist as well, and that\u2019s certainly the approach that the Labour Party had put in place with financial assistance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is a really serious question for this House: where are you going to strike the balance between risk to life and prosperity? Let\u2019s not fall into the trap of thinking that it probably won\u2019t happen, because when it does happen, it will be catastrophic. It will be beyond anything we could imagine. So let\u2019s take advice from our scientists, seismologists, and engineers, but, most of all, let\u2019s get on and make our buildings safe. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u002291aa354074784390b56c67481da7b180\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291aa354074784390b56c67481da7b180\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to rise to speak in the first reading of this bill and, as others have said, its key purpose is to extend the remediation time frames for earthquake-prone buildings by four years. It\u2019s an extension that will provide clarity and certainty both for building owners and territorial authorities as well as the Minister announced recently that the review of the management of seismic risk in the existing buildings and subsequently any legislative amendments has been brought forward from 2027. So I want to acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got to strike a balance, and that\u2019s what this Government is committed to with both this bill and with the review. If we don\u2019t strike that balance, we will only see more earthquake-prone buildings rot in our rural towns and our city centres across the country, and if members want to know what that looks like, I invite them to check out the old Molly Malones building on the corner of Courtenay Place and Taranaki Street in central Wellington. It\u2019s been abandoned, it\u2019s been deteriorating, it\u2019s almost unsellable, and it\u2019s been in that situation for 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EAnother well-known Wellington building that I want to point to is the former Press Gallery Annex at the back of the Beehive\u2014earthquake-prone, but having architectural merit, according to Heritage New Zealand. Architectural merit\u2014brutalism. It\u2019s too hard, at first blush, to remodel for ministerial offices, so subsequently it remains empty, right here in the parliamentary precinct. We want to see less examples of empty buildings than more, hence why the Minister is acting with some haste but with a lot of consultation with his expansive review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EIn Auckland, interestingly enough, more than 1,700 buildings are registered as being earthquake-prone, which is a big proportion of the over 5,000 earthquake-prone buildings nationwide. Auckland Council\u2019s general manager of building consents, Ian McCormick, has welcomed the Government\u2019s review: \u201CWe support the review to ensure the investment by property owners to upgrade their buildings is proportionate to Auckland\u2019s seismic risk.\u201D Nearly 500 deadlines are set to expire over the next four years, so this gives us time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EAgain, I want to give a lot of credit to the Minister for Building and Construction, the Hon Chris Penk, for bringing forward the review of the earthquake-prone building rules and extending remediation for four years. This is a great day, and a big sigh of relief is being exhaled by councils, mayors, property managers, property owners, and business associations up and down this country. We are giving them more time and that\u2019s what they\u2019ve asked for, and, as one property manager said in the media just recently, an extension is a godsend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EAlso, let\u2019s have a look at this review that that\u2019s under way and will be completed next year\u20142025\u2014and, again, it has been brought forward from 2027. It\u2019s a wide-reaching review. There will be extensive consultation across the property sector and across local government which will result in legislative changes. It will result in legislative changes, but then they will go through an exhaustive select committee process and will then be reported back to this House for debate, for further consideration, and, ultimately, for ratification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003ESo, for Auckland, where the Mayor of Auckland has said that there\u2019s been no signs of earthquake activity for 100,000 years\u2014well, we know that the Mayor of Auckland sometimes exaggerates and has a turn of phrase. But for Auckland, it makes sense. We\u2019re a low-risk area, we need more time, and our response needs to be proportionate. So I commend this first reading to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224435afb16cde43ddb5bd022ad2ef4f38\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 89\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 34\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000296\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b21b6c7f3dba4172886f0dc0300bd0f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b21b6c7f3dba4172886f0dc0300bd0f6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be considered by the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd122ade45504d9894e1c3dd3974c368\u0022\u003EInstruction to Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdc224cebf1f45c7b5c80ec50b752ac4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdc224cebf1f45c7b5c80ec50b752ac4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 31 October 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, I know that this is a very tight debate in terms of the Government\u2019s view, and it is supported by some others in the House that there be a shortened select committee time, but perhaps you\u2019ll indulge me just to acknowledge the thoughtful contributions made by parliamentary colleagues all across the House, including on both sides of the argument, in relation to the first reading. I think it\u2019s appropriate that there\u2019s constructive dialogue, and I thank everyone for exactly that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI do wish to point out in relation to the proposal that\u2019s before the House that there be a shortened select committee period that the fact we are now discussing and debating this bill at all in the first place reflects that there has been considerable discussion in the community, including with local government\u2014between themselves and with central government\u2014and, certainly, I\u2019ve been grateful for guidance by the mayors and other elected representatives of many different councils across New Zealand, including those in whose jurisdiction we currently stand. So I think I would respectfully point out to those who are nervous about a shortened select committee report-back period that, first, there has already been considerable consultation and discussion. This is not a new idea\u2014this is not, indeed, an original idea to me. Second, just to emphasise to anyone who\u2019s listening and in case it\u2019s not clear already, I\u2019d point out that, of course, this bill relates only to the extension of the current deadlines, as opposed to the much more substantive and difficult and gnarly and complex question of what the review might find and, therefore, what the regulations should be, going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWith that, I look forward to hearing how the select committee goes, though, obviously, not to influence it, but to take great interest in it, and I thank in advance the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, whose members\u2014many of whom are in the House today and have contributed already to the debate\u2014I know will be diligent in the time that\u2019s afforded to them. I know that they will take seriously the obligation to consider this question of extension. Finally, I\u2019d like to point out that the time frame that we are proposing\u201431\u00A0October\u2014for report back will enable us to pass this bill by the end of this calendar year, thereby providing more certainty, more clarity, and less retrospectivity to the question of an extension, whereby for those in the period of time from 2 April until today or such time as this bill comes into effect are in some sort of legal limbo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe know that Ministers cannot make law merely by announcing, and, certainly in the case of statutory and amendment, we know from the case Fitzgerald v Muldoon and other discussions in our constitutional history that we can\u2019t regard these changes as being effective in law until such time as that law is passed. Therefore, it\u2019s appropriate to have a shortened select committee report-back so that we can get on and provide that certainty and then, of course, continue the important task of discussing those major questions that will surface during the review and already have, indeed, been the subject of some discussion. With that, I look forward to contributions that, no doubt, will continue to be constructive in tone regarding the report-back period, and, of course, I wish the select committee all the best in its considerations in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022900c642817bf4239b8f52acea5692108\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022900c642817bf4239b8f52acea5692108\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. For all members who might wish to take a call on this, just a reminder that it is about the report-back time, not the details of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022be2e7aba047d4e7b88ff7c1656668dd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be2e7aba047d4e7b88ff7c1656668dd3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister struck a lovely tone, but didn\u2019t actually give us any reason as to why this should be truncated. He basically said two things in that speech, if I heard him rightly. One is that we\u2019ve knocked this idea around a fair bit, so there\u2019s been some sense of community consultation, and the other thing was that the people who, when the obligation crystallised in April\u2014they\u2019re in a kind of a limbo. Neither of those pressed why there should be a less than four-month report-back stage. I guess it\u2019s difficult for me\u00A0to stand up and now debate and say the reasons he gave were terrible, because he actually gave no reasons. He just seemed to say, \u201CWe don\u2019t really think we need a six-month period.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important in this House that we note that a full select committee process is really, really important so that we have both a good process and a legitimacy around what Parliament is doing, and whilst we know that urgency and shortened processes are useful sometimes, and appropriate\u2014all Governments use them\u2014they certainly have to be very clearly justified. I mean, it\u2019s a little ironic to me that we\u2019ve got a bill here which is extending time, kicking the can down the road, and we\u2019re doing it with a truncated process. With one hand, we\u2019re saying, \u201COh, we can adjust time frames and push it out. Everyone needs a bit more time.\u201D, but when we\u2019re considering that very question, we\u2019re giving the House less time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo that seems very strange to me, and I simply can\u2019t accept, in terms of the limbo question, that it\u2019s problematic. You know, we\u2019ve all heard of the Fitzgerald v Muldoon case and we know that a Minister\u2014and that Minister, of course, knows\u2014can\u2019t stand up and declare that the law will be changed in the future and change behaviour now. We get that. But, pragmatically speaking, some months ago, the Minister issued a press release and let it be known to the community that he was going to take a particular approach and that gave considerable certainty. That\u2019s why he did it\u2014so that the sector could have certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s no suggestion\u2014and I couldn\u2019t imagine, of all the Ministers of that Government, that that one would go back on his word. We know that the sector has certainty around this, so, genuinely, I just can\u2019t see it. It\u2019s like we could get the same result without any downside by giving the select committee either four months, in which case we wouldn\u2019t be having a debate, or the routine and regular six months, which is what is normal and appropriate. It may be that the Minister will just round off and explain to the House why there is some particular urgency that means we need less than four months to get on with it. It would be useful if we could really put the finger on it because the select committee procedure is an important one, and it does truncate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI accept that the bill does a whole lot of other things that people may take an interest in, like small, heated swimming pools and things like that. But it is a relatively technical issue in terms of earthquake strengthening and time lines and how we go about it, so it\u2019s not likely that people are going to front up and give their personal reckons on what the issue is. They\u2019ll be substantive submissions backed by evidence. It is quite likely, and I genuinely hope that the committee will be informed by submissions from professional people like lawyers who have been engaged in that space, like professional engineers, and like property owners and managers. Those people want to do a professional submission, which takes time, and it would be a sad day if, because of a truncated time frame, people who genuinely wanted to inform the House and give substantive and informed professional submissions didn\u2019t get an opportunity to because their professional lives were too busy or whatever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI understand that the Minister gets another opportunity to speak. It\u2019d be good to say, \u201CWell, it is urgent and here\u2019s why it\u2019s urgent.\u201D, because at the moment, what we\u2019ve got is a risk that we\u2019re running of\u2014I know the committee will do the best job it can\u2014a lower-quality select committee procedure then would otherwise be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELook, I\u2019ll leave it there. I know there\u2019s another bill that I\u2019m very keen to speak on a little later on in this House, but I\u2019m sure some of my colleagues will want to speak to this, as well. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225543aae0057f4630afc528227d971a38\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 31 October 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022048d57005ea941239aed8c2196e5c0a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022048d57005ea941239aed8c2196e5c0a3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call on Government orders of the day Nos 2 and\u00A03, I just wanted to clarify, actually, that the Minister only has one call in any motion. So the Minister, even if he wanted to, was unable to take\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c58b494ff57a4f908bfbe1d8c816290f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: I would have given him leave!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225efca126d953410ebac97cee31d39a91\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just wanted to make that\u2014yes, I just had that advice and wanted to make it clear so that it\u2019s not a problem on future occasions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Gangs Legislation Amendment Bill and the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022400f2c14a8d64fe9b61d672b2cdb816a\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ac3109fa54c4da19fd06e3656af3750\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002263d46a8576ff4a9892e6f42f1952b0a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263d46a8576ff4a9892e6f42f1952b0a4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee for further consideration of the Gangs Legislation Amendment Bill and the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002225bb791e49854d6c9b94789de3afab56\u0022\u003EGangs Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a59deb5b80024214a94b526bb3bdda88\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000323\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 6 August.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022371fc44330494683977e42b96e27a1c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022371fc44330494683977e42b96e27a1c0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: When we were last considering this bill, we were debating Part 5. Part 5 is the debate on clauses 36 to 38, amendments to the Sentencing Act 2002, and Schedule 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c628bbfa5d8436cbabd0136d7252ddc\u0022\u003EPart 5  Amendments to Sentencing Act 2002 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022285ed2e58c4840c2870ce659c6995437\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022285ed2e58c4840c2870ce659c6995437\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to first pick up part of my contribution in the previous session around\u2014which the Minister didn\u2019t have the opportunity to clarify\u2014the greater implication of Part 5 by including gang affiliation as part of aggravating factors in section 9 of the Sentencing Act, particularly in terms of the interconnectivity of the Sentencing Act with the Crimes Act, and certain crimes that may have no affiliation or no relation to the gang affiliation being, unfortunately, attached or implicated as a result. One of the things I mentioned as part of that just very briefly was on section 220 of the Crimes Act in terms of theft in a special relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other thing I mentioned around the Crimes Act is section 66, in terms of party liability. I want to sort of expand on that, first, around party liability, which is some of the instances that we have seen previously when people\u2014and in this case, when we\u2019re looking at, potentially, the unfair treatment of w\u0101hine M\u0101ori in this particular legislation, because if we\u2019re looking at cases such as the R v Ahsin case in 2013 where w\u0101hine M\u0101ori had been made accessory to certain acts that had been done by their spouses\u2014in this particular case, under the requirement and the interpretation of section 66 of the Crimes Act, they were liable for the crime as well, under party liability. In this particular case, what you will see is that because of the aggravating factor that will be introduced as part of section 9 of the Sentencing Act, w\u0101hine M\u0101ori may be unfairly targeted as a result of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI just wanted some clarification from the Minister or the officials on whether any modelling has been done on the potential to increase the sentencing and also on increasing the chance of w\u0101hine M\u0101ori in our prison system as a result of this introduction. Now, this is particularly important since, for the longest time, we have been talking in this House about the fact that w\u0101hine M\u0101ori and Pasifika women have been unfairly represented in our prison system. So I would like some clarification from the Minister regarding that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second part that\u2019s also a consideration to this is I would really like the Minister to clarify or consider another scenario where gang affiliation may be unfairly treated if it\u2019s included as an aggravating factor. That is when we\u2019re looking at section 201 of the Crimes Act regarding infecting with disease. This is particularly the case when we\u2019re looking at the R v Mwai case from 1995, where we are looking at people who either intentionally, or accidently\u2014if we\u2019re looking more broadly under a breach of criminal nuisance in section 145, which is a breach of section 156 of the Crimes Act, which is \u201CDuty of persons in charge of dangerous things\u201D\u2014infect someone with a sexually transmitted disease. Again, those kind of things are criminally liable actions and people can be criminally charged, but the gang affiliation is a bit of a stretch in terms of having that being an aggravating factor under section 9 of the Sentencing Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAll of these sorts of scenarios are scenarios that have happened in Aotearoa New Zealand. These are not things that are just hypothetical; these are actual cases. So when we are looking at this, what is the Minister\u2019s consideration in terms of the potential increase in unfair treatment of gang members, or those who are affiliated with gangs, when the crime itself actually has very little to do with gang affiliation? So if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying\u2014and that is section 220 of the Crimes Act, which is theft in special relationships; section 66, which is party liability; section 201, about infecting with disease, and, should the Minister wish to also respond, section 145, about criminal nuisance. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00222fc77daac8a7414698a5cbbcc5239b2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fc77daac8a7414698a5cbbcc5239b2c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I thank the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan for his intelligent and articulate contribution. I think the two different legs of his questions can be answered substantially in the same way. Taking the second one first, around those different provisions within our criminal law that he says may be unlikely to be connected with the fact of gang membership, I think that the Government\u2019s view is that it\u2019s appropriate for the judge not to be unduly limited in deciding that extent of connection when she or he is making that decision, and, of course, in relation to the first point, that applies equally where we say that in relation to the proposal that w\u0101hine M\u0101ori might be disproportionately affected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, the member is right to raise an important question for our society and, indeed, our criminal justice system more generally. But at an individual case level, the principle of equality before the law, as a key aspect of the rule of law, is such that these demographic factors should not be taken into account by the judge when making a decision on these matters at sentencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002250f5f23f78dc4ef49368e1f4905fa960\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250f5f23f78dc4ef49368e1f4905fa960\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to the Minister for those comments. One thing that springs to mind immediately from those comments, and I think it\u2019s actually quite an important one: is it the Government\u2019s intention with the amendment to the Sentencing Act that the more closely connected to gang membership the crime is, the more aggravating the factor is? So if you\u2019ve got a group of gang members engaged in a burglary, then that\u2019s a gang crime; if you\u2019ve got a gang member who\u2019s carelessly used a motor vehicle, it\u2019s not a gang crime. In terms of how aggravating gang membership is, would it be fair to say the more of a gang crime it is, the more aggravating it is? So that\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy second question is actually one I hope the Minister will take a real interest in and might have some instructions on, and that\u2019s on the retrospective nature of clause 17 in new Part 5 of Schedule 1AA of the Sentencing Act that is being added in Schedule 4 of the bill, which is the very last thing in the bill. Now, I raised this in an earlier debate, but the Minister didn\u2019t get a chance to respond to it whilst he was there. This is the commencement clause for the change to the Sentencing Act, and, as it\u2019s drafted, it says that \u201Capplies only to proceedings commenced on or after the commencement date.\u201D The difficulty with that is that the offence could have been committed two years ago. The New Zealand Bill of Right Act provides that a person is entitled to be charged and sentenced under the law as it stood at the time that the offence was committed, and this actually departs from that. Now, my amendment solves that by replacing \u201Cproceedings commenced\u201D with \u201Coffences committed\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe last time one of my other amendments, the Minister sneakily put an Amendment Paper in as well and usurped me there, so it may be that that\u2019s going to occur. But I actually think that\u2019s quite an important one. It\u2019s tucked away in the kind of depths of the bill, but it does strike me as a transgression of the retrospectivity principle in actually quite an important way. So I will stop there because I\u2019m hopeful the Minister will be able to respond to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ccb0477ed1a420f80821ff3b34c1c1f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228346a058ca3c4a97b346655d7388d36f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb was on his feet first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b2e49869fcf4ba881e52e8f46602e55\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you, Madam Chair. Well, I can see that the Minister\u2014the very good Minister of Justice that he is\u2014is thinking carefully about it. So I\u2019ll just touch on the other question that wasn\u2019t responded to, and I know that it may be that my friends on the other side are keen to leap to their feet, but it would be good for the Minister to have an opportunity to respond to these, even if it requires the committee to pause for a moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy other amendment is really about the difficulty we have with the aggravating factor simply of being a gang member when it bears no rational relationship to the offending, and my amendment, which has got a \u201Cl\u201D on it, adds a subclause there which links it into\u00A0serious offending so that it\u2019s not shoplifting or, as in Mr Xu-Nan\u2019s example, infecting someone intentionally with a sexually transmitted disease. That\u2019s not one that leapt to my\u00A0mind, but, again, it\u2019s a really good example of a crime that doesn\u2019t have a gang element in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t agree with the underlying principle of the Act, but my amendment would at least make it so that there was some \u201Cgang-ness\u201D to the crime, if you like, because it is serious offending as identified in this legislation. So if you could respond to that retrospectivity piece in particular, but also whether you\u2019d smile upon that other amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022b755b9a4872e4e218a3c2bd8ccafa79b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b755b9a4872e4e218a3c2bd8ccafa79b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I do acknowledge and, as best I can, I will address the points that the member has made. In terms of the question of whether the Government intends that there\u2019ll be a proportional relationship between, on the one hand, connection with gang membership and the nature of the offence, I think the Government\u2019s position would be that that\u2019s an appropriate question for the judge in any individual matter in the act of sentencing to consider and apply as they think appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question of commencement, or rather the applicability of the new sentencing regime, as it affects a matter in which an actus reus has taken place versus the commencement of proceedings, it seems to me there\u2019d be a relatively narrow subset of actions, and then cases to which this might apply. But it\u2019s a reasonable question, I think, as far as it goes. It seems to me that the Attorney-General\u2019s report under section 7 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (NZBORA) did contemplate that question and, indeed, other NZBORA-related matters, and I think it seems to me that the intention isn\u2019t that there be a retrospectivity about the bill and its effects. I would point out that while, of course, the NZBORA does have things to say about retrospectivity in relation to criminal matters, we\u2019re not in the serious territory of declaring an act to be a criminal activity or offence that was not at the time that it was perpetrated, but rather a bit of nuance around the extent to which certain factors might be able to be taken into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOn the third and final point, which I think is the amendment marked \u201Cp\u201D for pa, then I think I\u2019m right in saying that the\u2014oh, I beg your pardon; I think that I\u2019m in the same territory as I was for the one that was marked \u201Cl\u201D for lemur. So if I\u2019m confused on that point, I apologise. I\u2019ll see if I can gain any greater clarity either under my own steam or with some help from my friends, or perhaps the member himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u002234a1fc35166f4545baba79d8da9aefb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234a1fc35166f4545baba79d8da9aefb4\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223b24b9e9d09b407c85802a173eab153e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b24b9e9d09b407c85802a173eab153e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from Tamatha Paul, as the Minister has just indicated that he\u2019s looking for some more clarification, but I believe we are getting close. We\u2019ve had a lot of time on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbe09733cb564bba9b7d0024ebacba27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbe09733cb564bba9b7d0024ebacba27\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. Thank you for allowing me to take a call on Part 5 of this bill. My question is related to aggravating factors, and I know that we have already covered the aspect that the crime that has been committed might not relate to the offender\u2019s membership of a gang. But I do want to dive into that aggravating factor a little bit more and the way that this takes away discretion from the judges who are charged with taking into account the person before them and then giving them a programme of rehabilitation or sentences that deals with the offending that has taken place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: why doesn\u2019t the Government trust the judiciary to implement the aggravating factor for gang membership that already exists within the legislation, and why is the Government choosing to override the judiciary again? Today, we had hearings on the three-strikes legislation, which does a similar thing in that it provides more instruction to judges about how they need to sentence and deal with different crimes. Again, we have this really important separation of powers within our democratic system that separates us and the executive from the judiciary. This takes out the judge\u2019s discretion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI\u2019m further concerned that with the un-funding of section 27 reports that our judges aren\u2019t going to have an accurate picture of the person before them to be able to give them an outcome that actually addresses their offending and addresses the needs of the victims, if there are some, in the situation. So how is the judge supposed to take into account what appropriate rehabilitation is needed when they don\u2019t have the cultural or background information that they need via a section 27 report? I\u2019m assuming that most people who are in gangs would probably need to rely on legal aid for that section 27 report. But all the judge has got in front of them is this aggravating factor that this person belongs to a gang, but doesn\u2019t have the reason why this person is in a gang in the first place. We know that that\u2019s important context to have, because just two weeks ago, we had the abuse in State care report, which detailed just one of the many reasons why people feel that they need to turn to gangs in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EActually, if you look to the report of the Chief Science Advisor to the Prime Minister about minimising gang harm in Aotearoa, that adviser says in the report that gangs exist because they perform a function within society. This is all-important context that our judges need to have before them but won\u2019t be able to have before them. So that\u2019s my first major question: what has led to the major distrust in judges\u2019 abilities to provide appropriate sentences? Is it because this Government chooses to prioritise deterrence theory, which is, effectively, that people who commit crime are aware of the sentences tied to the crime that they\u2019re committing\u2014which we know is not true?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EOften, crime is motivated by emotions and the situation before the person who commits the crime, as opposed to them making a rational decision based on \u201CIf I do this thing, these are the consequences of my actions.\u201D That\u2019s not the way that crime happens, and we had lots of criminologists and lawyers and people that work in the criminal law space that understand that deterrence theory isn\u2019t accurate and doesn\u2019t work because the people that commit crime and most of the people in prison have got significant mental and cognitive issues. Their literacy is not the same as everybody else. There are significant neurodiversity issues with people that are in prison, and their ability to make decisions and weigh up the consequences of their actions is impaired. So that\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EHas he seen any evidence at all that making gang membership an aggravating factor at sentencing will help people to exit gangs as well, because that\u2019s surely the outcome that we all want across the House. We want fewer gang members and we want to make sure that people can exit gangs safely. But what evidence has he seen that longer sentences\u2014which will inevitably come through a bill like this\u2014actually lead to people exiting gangs in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00221b76dd541d274ae3b6e414ed2e43b816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b76dd541d274ae3b6e414ed2e43b816\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. Very briefly, if I may, I won\u2019t engage on the points that were not related to the bill, but to the three points that were in relation to the member\u2019s contribution. She alleges that we are overriding the judge\u2019s discretion\u2014indeed, we\u2019re not; we\u2019re actually empowering choices that they make to decide the appropriate weight to place on gang membership in relation to any individual matter before them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESecond, she makes a point around deterrence as though deterrence was the only aim of the criminal justice system. It is not. There are various others, including prevention, which is by way of saying that if members of the public who have committed violent acts are behind bars for the period of time that they are, society is a bit safer. Again, that\u2019s not a sole or exclusive aim of the criminal justice system, but it\u2019s another one, and another one, incidentally, is rehabilitation. This Government\u2019s approach is that if we have better rehabilitative processes when people are incarcerated then they will have better life prospects, including in relation to society and community membership other than by gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFinally, in relation to sentences, I think the member\u2019s point was along the lines that there would be an effect on sentencing. But, of course, again, it\u2019s back to a judge\u2019s discretion in terms of determining the appropriate degree of weight. But Parliament has the ability to provide guidance to judges through the Sentencing Act. That\u2019s then applied in individual cases without our interference, and that\u2019s why we have a Sentencing Act in the first place. I would be surprised if any member of this House would suggest that we shouldn\u2019t have any kind of guidelines in the Sentencing Act, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIf I can just return to the points that were made by Dr Duncan Webb previously, one of which I missed addressing entirely\u2014that was the amendment marked \u201Cp\u201D. The point, actually, for that\u2014and I do want to say it on record because this is important and this could be a matter that judges take seriously going forward in terms of understanding Parliament\u2019s intent. In the Government\u2019s intent, we intend that this legislation be interpreted consistently with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (NZBORA). So, if there is any question of that in terms of perceived or alleged ambiguity, please know that we intend that the bill be interpreted in a way that is consistent and able to be consistent with NZBORA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFinally, amendment \u201Cl\u201D\u2014\u201Cl\u201D for \u201Clemur\u201D\u2014is provided again by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb. That would have a broader effect than just this bill, so we don\u2019t propose to accept that or at least vote in favour of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00220c73e66a7a3f4dd9bb2cbec970dc3ecc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c73e66a7a3f4dd9bb2cbec970dc3ecc\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f9640e1d01f64bc2ad337c3245d2a4db\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222ea4557e787549c48c2e9414eb1ab17f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ea4557e787549c48c2e9414eb1ab17f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert clause 37(hb)(iii) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002259423cda296d49aa9fd9219a2893bfbf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224100e5a895da47bbaae0cb080bc34a4f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7b9e8ea81f9485684b0e07f21b83296\u0022\u003ESchedule 1  Transitional, savings, and related provisions \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224a5ce5b593164373bb11429dee07efbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a5ce5b593164373bb11429dee07efbb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We now vote on Schedule 1, which has no debate. The question is that Schedule 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022047dcec957e14fff8fbb12eaf103ba2d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002238496e5b57be4b0592b1740310d441e5\u0022\u003ESchedule 2  Identified gangs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221553f40ff5f3434496f9ee36e24de762\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221553f40ff5f3434496f9ee36e24de762\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We now vote on Schedule 2, which has no debate. The question is that Schedule 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f6f5a5fe26bd404382a70d17d9953084\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002289d4f7ed40964f52901892f1d1820c02\u0022\u003ESchedule 3  Consequential amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1ed642826fe4561b58e8b99d8264482\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1ed642826fe4561b58e8b99d8264482\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Schedule 3\u2014also with no debate. The question is that Schedule 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229cbe969f9b7e4c5ca8e1b88ba4c0f433\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220855fd932da84824832e81313868ddac\u0022\u003ESchedule 4  New Part 5 inserted into Schedule 1AA of Sentencing Act 2002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227044b9e824c741abb1939a5e979ccdb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227044b9e824c741abb1939a5e979ccdb3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Schedule 4 with no debate. The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 4 set out on Amendment Papers 64 and 51 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228d53cc5c71d74a4b9a9dfdf0ec9d11c3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbdb34765cea4ce7a60906803b632a78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbdb34765cea4ce7a60906803b632a78\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 17 of Schedule 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002229af98b994454181867a50b63f9ca1ca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e6e71918b386408484d200676b56e5eb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022364f89e8df434849ad702f3704c68a6e\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221080b842f44141fab17196a5da37c4e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221080b842f44141fab17196a5da37c4e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, and this is on clauses 1 and 2. These are the \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0c8f801726745e7a1636ba6f663baac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0c8f801726745e7a1636ba6f663baac\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. In terms of the title of this bill, I think that the Gangs Legislation Amendment Bill is a missed opportunity and a missed direction for what this bill actually serves. I would recommend that this bill be renamed the \u201CGangs (Fearmongering and Division) Bill\u201D, because that is what this bill serves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhat we have been seeing, and what we have been hearing from the Minister, is around the fear of gangs, but at no point is the Minister actually addressing the root causes of gangs in Aotearoa. What we are hearing, the Minister has mentioned, is a lot of talk about the fact the Greens have mentioned colours and that we can\u2019t wear certain colours in certain places. But there are many other instances when we may not wear a certain colour\u2014for example, when you are supporting a particular sports team. I think if you a supporting a particular football team in the UK\u2014you support Manchester instead of Liverpool\u2014there will be certain colours that you will not be wearing, both in terms of the respect you have for the team but also in terms of other things. For example, I would not be wearing certain colours. I would not be wearing blue in certain instances for fear that I might be mistaken for someone from a particular political party, because a lot of people think that Chinese people all vote for one particular party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThere was no evidence, as we\u2019ve seen in the regulatory impact statement, particularly page 30\u2014this is from the Ministry of Justice\u2014that ever suggested this legislation was going to do anything but harm the relationships that we have within our own communities. But I think that one other thing that also could be an alternative, when we are looking at the title of this bill, could be something like \u201CUnwilling to Address Systemic Trauma That Contributes to the Root Causes of Gangs Amendment Bill\u201D. I do think that is quite a long title, but it is an important point. This bill itself does not address any of that. It is simply putting a plaster on a much bigger wound, and there is nothing that suggests this plaster is going to work for that. So I would seriously implore the Minister to reconsider the necessity of this bill and what this bill will do to our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThroughout this debate, we have mentioned a variety of factors that mean this bill is not evidence based. There are things that we have not thought out in terms of this bill. If we look at this purest\u2014all things aside, I would go to my Amendment Paper on the change of the title, because I do think that \u201CGangs Legislation Amendment Bill\u201D does not reflect the true intent of this, or any sort of specific element of this. Just to be particularly factual and process based, in terms of the content, when we were looking at Part 2 and Part 3 of this bill, which are the substantial elements of this, I think \u201CGangs (Insignia and Dispersal) Amendment Bill\u201D is a much more accurate reflection of the content of the bill, as opposed to \u201CGangs Legislation Amendment Bill\u201D, which is not incredibly descriptive of its content.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo I would hope that, with everything else I mentioned aside, the Minister would seriously consider my amendment to the change of the title to \u201CGangs (Insignia and Dispersal) Amendment Bill\u201D. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022db8d32279d2a4059a119e5fc9a1ecb86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db8d32279d2a4059a119e5fc9a1ecb86\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I think the appropriate name for the bill would be, probably, \u201CKick the M\u0101oris in the Guts Again Bill\u201D. I think that\u2019s probably a better title. I\u2019m serious about this, because this is happening every week from the Government, if we think about it. I know that was a nice title from my friend over there, the Green member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, but I just think \u201CKick the M\u0101oris in the Guts Again from the Government Bill\u201D would be a much better title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI think that this bill\u2014and I\u2019m not the first one to say this; so many people are saying that out there. I think James Meager agrees with me too in his heart, if he thinks about it. Every week, M\u0101ori are under attack. So that\u2019s why I\u2019m saying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201b19a4a75f64197a81b9d8fdf4a4344\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just ask the member for a moment just to lift the conversation. I\u2019ve heard a lot of debate in this piece of legislation and I\u2019ve also heard very good, forthcoming speeches about how, actually, this is about the gangs, and there\u2019s a small proportion of those gangs who are, in fact, M\u0101ori, so can we keep this conversation\u2014and I did hear the Minister who was in the chair at the time acknowledge that, because I was sitting here. So I think could we make it about the gangs and the title and the commencement of the gangs bill\u2014yeah. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eadc1671568f4f6aa2f43f3d1a5a1dbb\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, I\u2019m giving you a suggestion in terms of the title, and I\u2019m giving you some basis for the title. I want to elaborate, because I\u2019ve had M\u0101ori leaders, gang leaders talk to me. I think I know, with respect, probably more gang members than most people in this House. I suppose that\u2019s not something to be proud about, but I\u2019ve been raised around many gang members, many who have turned their lives around\u2014many who have turned their lives around\u2014some of them who will be working with this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EGood on this Government for wanting to work with some of those gang members, because you\u2019re never going to get to the root of the problem if you don\u2019t work with the Eugene Ryders of this world, if you don\u2019t work with the Denis O\u2019Reillys of this world, if you don\u2019t work with the gang leaders. I\u2019ve been around many of them and I\u2019ve been no big fan of gangs at all. In fact, for the committee\u2019s information, we bar patches on my marae, and we\u2019ve had that gang patch ban\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad50d2ad7365423fa1004e58c61ba9af\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Is it working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd6f6fb0f39f4f0ba0a3c0a26161c332\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for many years. I\u2019ll tell you why it\u2019s working, and that\u2019s a good question. I\u2019ll tell you why it\u2019s working: because we work with the wh\u0101nau too\u2014we work with the wh\u0101nau too. So I accept some of the k\u014Drero that the gang patches can be intimidating. All people can get intimidated by gang patches\u2014M\u0101ori, P\u0101keh\u0101, whatever. But one thing we can\u2019t walk away from\u2014and this is the problem with the legislation\u2014is that you\u2019re actually affecting wh\u0101nau; that\u2019s the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIn our school that we set up at my marae at Ng\u0101 Whare Waatea, which is open to everyone, 25 percent of our kids had gang fathers. Gang fathers\u2014they know when they attend the marae, no patches. So we need to bring in laws. See, here\u2019s the thing: National has got some history in terms of working with gangs. A very famous or infamous Prime Minister\u2014Rob Muldoon\u2014had a relationship with gangs. He had the gangs in here. He knew the way forward. The way forward was to keep them busy, to keep them in work. When Muldoon died, the Black Power performed a haka at his tangi. He wanted to find a way through. He was someone who knew there had to be a strategy around gangs, not just getting rid of patches. What we did was try to dismantle the assets where this former Minister over here did some wonderful work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe have to cut to the chase, cut to the root of the problem. Just taking their patches is not going to make communities any safer; it\u2019s got to be a bit more than that. I appreciate the fear. I appreciate the fear that is out there amongst some of the communities. I\u2019ve debated this at length with people like Michael Laws, who I worked with some years ago. We used to debate this on radio in terms of the effect of taking patches off. At the time, Michael Laws was the Whanganui mayor and he was going down this track, and so my partner in crime there John Tamihere, who became the president of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014[Time expired] Madam Chair? Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo, if I could just continue, my partner in crime John Tamihere, who is now the president of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, absolutely supported getting rid of patches. Just for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2019s information, he 100 percent supported getting rid of patches of gangs, but, of course, I know Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori has evolved, and so has John Tamihere, I believe. But, at the time, he was absolutely clear that those patches had to come off the gangs. He was in Michael Law\u2019s court, believe it or not. I never was, because we needed to think this out. We needed to think about the broader strategies. Were we looking after wh\u0101nau? Was employment being put in place? Were the gangs being, I suppose, looked after? When people, whether it\u2019s gangs or whatever have nothing to do, they do what they shouldn\u2019t do, we should know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENow, my organisation, back in the 1980s and 1990s, we were contracting Black Power, and the president at the time was a guy called Abe Wharewaka, who you would know\u2014Abe Wharewaka. They were contracted to our organisation, and so we had the Black Power members all in work, all busy, all active. This is what Muldoon said, one of the National Party icons and heroes. He said you just can\u2019t leave them to their own devices. People like Muldoon said it\u2019s not just about taking their patches; it\u2019s about providing work. It\u2019s about looking after wh\u0101nau. It\u2019s about getting these guys out of what they\u2019re involved with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI am not a supporter of gangs. Sorry about that there, sister, but I am not a supporter of gangs, and I have told the gangs this, but I\u2019m a supporter of their wh\u0101nau. When I see them, I see their families, I see their wives, I see their tamariki, and we have an obligation as M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori community organisations to look after their wh\u0101nau, no matter what the hell their fathers have done sometimes. We all tell them off. These people in the Chamber will tell them off, but you can\u2019t just take patches off them and think that \u201COh, it\u2019s all been solved now.\u201D It\u2019s too superficial. You have to hit them in the pocket. You have to hit the asset side. What this legislation is threatening to do\u2014you need to listen here. You need to listen. I\u2019m not just trying to grandstand here. You need to think about things in a wh\u0101nau aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that prides itself in terms of supporting Wh\u0101nau Ora. This Government has supported the funding in terms of Wh\u0101nau Ora. I\u2019ve given Tama Potaka some credit with that. Part of Wh\u0101nau Ora is looking after people who might upset you, who might have upset your wh\u0101nau and upset your community, but you have an obligation to look after that wh\u0101nau. So I say to this Government, you\u2019ve got to look beyond the patch. You\u2019ve got to look beyond the patch\u2014what\u2019s happening at home? What\u2019s happening in the community? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI think the Prime Minister fronted very well in terms of when we had the abuse victims here. It was a very good day, I think, for this Parliament, when we had a Prime Minister and parties supporting people who have been dealt to by the State. Then the next day, you start pushing this type of legislation. M\u0101ori and communities have had enough. So I implore this Government\u2014I know they\u2019re not going to change this legislation now\u2014to think about this, because you\u2019ve got communities in an uproar. You\u2019ve got communities in an uproar. You saw some of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b07c4db870b4c7da2b39d828a816d4a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t bring the Chair into the debate, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb7133439b4f44ceb6a3f83f91ccdd5a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Madam Chair. We have communities in an uproar. You saw some of the performance on television last night in terms of the M\u0101ori seats\u2014you saw that. Do we support that sort of violent response? Of course not, but this is what happens. People get emotional. I know people will say, \u201COh, these are only gang patches and so who cares?\u201D Families care. Communities care. Iwi care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo I say today that I can\u2019t give you any other title apart from \u201CKick the M\u0101ori in the Guts\u201D. That\u2019s the best suggestion I could come up with at this stage, but I\u2019ll keep talking, if you like, and I might find another title over the next five minutes, but I\u2019m asking the Government to consider the overall strategy. How do we best hurt these gangs? You hurt them by dismantling their asset space. There\u2019s no easy fix. How do we go through the rehabilitation? How do we? We go through\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022000abd2fd54044d8a136ac52d99e1390\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for turning that into a constructive call, and I\u2019ll take a call from Tamatha Paul please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u00226dc9caaaf5e0471e85760e06be0ac193\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dc9caaaf5e0471e85760e06be0ac193\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224382c3cc637d4a68b7948d52e5faff5b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: On title and commencement\u2014let\u2019s go back to the title and commencement. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a48ba94cd7ca4f69989d3babcc2a98bd\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, back to the title\u2014100 percent. My question is whether the Minister considered the title \u201CSuppression and Surveillance of Indigenous People Act\u201D. I know that we just listened to 10 minutes relating to the impact of this bill on M\u0101ori, but I have some different points to make and they\u2019re more related to the consorting orders within the bill, which is one of the three key tenets of this bill. The first is the gang patch ban, the second is the non-consorting order, and the third is the dispersal notices. We actually didn\u2019t really have an opportunity at all to touch on the consorting orders during the committee of the whole House phase, but I think if we look at the way that they\u2019ve been applied, you can see why this would relate to the suppression and surveillance of M\u0101ori, or the suppression and surveillance of indigenous people, which is what I wanted to talk about in this call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWhen I did a bit of background research, when the Government announced their plan around gang patches, I think it was Minister Mitchell who said that he would be basing some of these laws on Australian laws and similar legislation that\u2019s been in place in Australia, and so I reached out to one of my Green colleagues in New South Wales David Shoebridge to ask him the success of these laws and how they had been applied. He said that\u2014and I looked this up and there is heaps of evidence of this\u2014those consorting orders have been used disproportionately against young Aboriginal people in Australia, which is why I think that the title of this bill needs to reflect the discriminatory impact and use that is used disproportionately against indigenous people. I\u2019ve got the report here; it\u2019s from the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission. It\u2019s called Discussion Paper: Review of the operation of the amendments to the consorting law under Part 3A Division 7 of the Crimes Act 1900, and it\u2019s from last year. In that, it talks about the use of these laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EFor context, in Australia, indigenous and Aboriginal people make up about 2 percent of the general population. But these consorting laws\u2014which, I again repeat, we have not had the chance to talk about in this committee of the whole House phase, despite the fact that it is a major piece of this legislation. During the review period, 1,797 of the 4,257 people who were on the receiving end of a consorting order\u2014so 42 percent\u2014were Aboriginal people. Then, you look at a breakdown of how it\u2019s been used in different jurisdictions within New South Wales, you can see that of the use of these consorting laws, 48 percent were used against indigenous people,;39 percent used against indigenous people\u201451 percent; 48 percent. For 75 percent of the times that these consorting orders were made, they impacted Aboriginal and indigenous people, and we know that it\u2019s going to be no different in Aotearoa because we already know that we have a system that surveils and suppresses M\u0101ori and that picks us up and takes tens of thousands of pictures of young M\u0101ori and stores them illegally, even after the Privacy Commissioner has said to the police, \u201CYou need to delete those photos.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWhen we had submitters on this bill coming to the Justice Committee, I think it was the Police Association that said that this was about giving extra tools to police\u2014it\u2019s extra tools in the tool belt. But those are extra tools in the tool belt to surveil and suppress M\u0101ori, and we know that. The reason we draw that connection to M\u0101ori is because when you look at the list of gangs identified within this piece of legislation, you don\u2019t see white supremacist gangs in there. You don\u2019t see a whole range of other gangs in there. Not even Destiny Church is in there. It\u2019s a whole bunch of M\u0101ori gangs, and we know that that is a statistical fact, because 80 to 90 percent of gang members are M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ESo these are just tools to contribute to the surveillance and suppression of M\u0101ori, which is why I suggest that that should be the title. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220a6b21f7e5574b5da4194dd2e84ebd15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a6b21f7e5574b5da4194dd2e84ebd15\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Ginny Andersen, and it will be title, commencement, or questions for the Minister, and not wide-ranging views. I did allow that speech because there was a cut-off the other day, when the member didn\u2019t have the opportunity to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00224ee636301a2a4359bcd25c39fb25c392\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ee636301a2a4359bcd25c39fb25c392\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E All right, my contribution, Madam Chair, is in relation to the commencement, but I was wondering if I had to make it climate-change related, given who\u2019s sitting in the Minister\u2019s chair, but I\u2019ll try and keep it on gangs. So, in terms of commencement, I understand this bill will come into effect immediately after it receives the Royal assent, which will be in couple of days. So it should be, all going well, up and running by the third reading coming up. That should be sort of, I guess\u2014what are we now? Late August\u2014in October or November, it should be up then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo my proposal, and the Minister who\u2019s available may wish to address this, is that I actually think that in order for this legislation to be effectively able to be implemented there needs to be an extension to that commencement date, because currently there\u2019s insufficient police resources for this legislation to be enforced. I consider it\u2019s really irresponsible of this Government to pass a law without having the resources in place to be able to actually enforce it. We know that there\u2019s around about 124. There\u2019s been a wing, but a few more have left. We\u2019re sitting at around about the 120 mark. There are fewer police officers on the front line than when this Government came into office and so this legislation is quite resource-intensive for police officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EMy major concern is that the additional police officers that this Government has promised\u2014the 500\u2014actually need to be fully recruited before police are at an operational capability to be able to effectively enforce this legislation. So my suggestion would be to kick out this commencement date until they actually reach their 500. I think that would be a far more realistic way to make sure that we\u2019re not putting, I guess, unattainable expectations upon the front line to be able to roll this out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe get regular updates on the vacancies currently carried right across New Zealand Police and those vacancies are heavy in our rural areas. We know that there are places around New Zealand where there are one or even just two officers in a station where they might be currently carrying four, five, or six vacancies in different roles. That\u2019s a huge administrative burden on our police service. If this legislation is enacted and there is a clear public expectation for police officers to enforce this as soon as it comes into force, then that\u2019s not fair on those police officers because they need that resource in place to be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EMy proposal is that this Government gives some serious consideration to effectively recruiting the additional 500 police and making sure, by talking to those district commanders and the Commissioner of Police, that those staff are put into areas that are able to make sure that legislation is able to be enforced as it\u2019s intended. Otherwise, what\u2019s the point of this bill? What\u2019s the actual point of passing this if the law is in place but it can\u2019t be enforced? That would seem like it was just kind of stuff to look good on the telly, wouldn\u2019t it? Of course, I\u2019m sure they\u2019re not doing that. It can\u2019t be that; of course they want to make sure it\u2019s actually going to have some effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI actually think that that\u2019s a pretty fair idea: to kick out that commencement date to make sure the Government meets their target of 500 additional police, and I think that that actually would give police\u2014it would allay some of their concerns. The New Zealand Police Association have come out really strongly on this. They\u2019re quite concerned that having laws that can\u2019t be enforced by police officers undermines the credibility of the New Zealand Police service and, effectively, undermines the rule of law in New Zealand. Why pass a law you can\u2019t enforce? That gives people the understanding, or the impression, that all laws don\u2019t necessarily have to be enforced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, if we are talking about restoring law and order, as promised by those members opposite, why are we passing laws that can\u2019t be enforced? That would just seem to be good clickbait or a pretty good slogan, but it wouldn\u2019t actually be delivering on what\u2019s being promised to voters in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222fb20850b659414ea7db8c0ed226bbd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fb20850b659414ea7db8c0ed226bbd4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and I thank the member the Hon Ginny Andersen for the question. As the member will be aware, the commencement date was covered as part of the select committee process. The agreement around the commencement of the bill being 21 November 2024 was through discussion in the select committee process and was actually based on the date on which the police requested that the legislation would be commenced. So, on that basis, we are happy to accommodate the police\u2019s request of 21 November 2024. That is the date on which this bill will commence and that is how we are going to proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2177c59db9a46f89f63e6577af38aea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2177c59db9a46f89f63e6577af38aea\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Now, I\u2019ve talked very carefully about this and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8a51a1ceff465e837fad2c2f959aeb\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, no irony!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d9a44be4c3e418e9250ce1ed1a01421\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Doocey, on this side of the committee, we do think carefully, unlike the people who came up with this bill, who really didn\u2019t think it out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e101bd38610b47489827249cf60546c4\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Come on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc987b733f04eafa71d4e0c8bb41f63\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: No, because this bill should be called\u2014and the title clause should be \u201CAmendment\u201D\u2014have put an amendment in if the Minister\u2019s happy\u2014the \u201CGang (Intimidation) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhat this bill actually does is it\u2019s really just Paul Goldsmith saying, \u201CYou gangs, you got to watch out. We\u2019re coming for you.\u201D That\u2019s about how effective it is. It\u2019s as effective as Paul Goldsmith with his \u201CMake America Great Again\u201D cap on saying, \u201CWe\u2019re coming for you\u201D and the gangs\u2014you know what? The gangs are quivering in their boots. That\u2019s about how effective this is, because this is Paul Goldsmith trying to intimidate gangs out of their patches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe know for a fact\u2014we heard quite clearly that the police are not going to go around and hunt out gang patches. This is utterly window dressing. It\u2019s just an utterly ineffectual attempt by that Government over there to address gangs by trying to scare them out of their gang patches\u2014boom. It\u2019s just not going to work. So it\u2019s a ridiculous bill and the fact of the matter is that it\u2019s, effectively, posturing, but the posturing would be fine if it was effective\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227114f5d827ae451192d0bc62e0682dab\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, pot kettle!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b71352b783246cdb530ae95f22e96a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but it\u2019s absolutely ineffectual posturing. As we went through this\u2014and I know why James Meager hasn\u2019t taken a call: because he\u2019s absolutely appalled by his own Government\u2019s bill. He sat there in the Justice Committee with his head in his hands as we went through and worked out how hopeless that bill was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb2ac2fc46a4baf994b6d2274224bd1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We know that\u2019s not true!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a798ac493c1c47c6b95bfb7e746d619b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Now there, you\u2019re still\u2014take your head out of your hands, stand up, and take a call and talk about the so-called merits of this bill. This bill, as we went through it in committee of the whole House here, time and again it was demonstrated how it was unworkable. So it can\u2019t be anything other than window dressing and an attempt to intimidate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, really, the fact of the matter is that the bill, as we went through it\u2014although we were, and I do want to say this; I want it on the record: we were precluded from talking about non-consorting orders. That debate was shut down in a way which was most unfortunate. Those are a really good example of orders that will never be made, just like non-association orders which already exist under the Sentencing Act and are pretty much never used because they\u2019re not useful, they\u2019re not effective, they don\u2019t have any actual criminal justice purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhat we have here is a bill which is ineffectual window dressing. None of the things\u2014gang patches, dispersal notices, consorting orders, sentencing, aggravating factors\u2014are workable. As you look through them, none of them actually work, so it can\u2019t be anything other than either a window dressing bill or an attempt by Paul Goldsmith to stare down the gangs with his tough-on-crime, real-consequences approach which is simply unworkable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo there you go. If the Minister\u2019s happy to have it called the \u201CGangs (Intimidation) Legislation Amendment Bill\u201D or perhaps the \u201CGangs (Paul Goldsmith Intimidating Them) Amendment Bill\u201D, that might be a more appropriate title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022dda99271825244cea170390533fb92f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dda99271825244cea170390533fb92f9\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022be0ce450e9064c63a2bf038332e17a05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be0ce450e9064c63a2bf038332e17a05\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Willie Jackson\u2014on the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc374970a0f24c669662b2e2d114d82f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc374970a0f24c669662b2e2d114d82f\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I was thinking about its commencement, Mr Chair. I was thinking about it. Given the Government\u2019s strategy around te ao M\u0101ori, the commencement is very, very important. As we all know, they have this Treaty principles idea up at the moment. So I think, strategically, this type of legislation should go after the Treaty legislation process is completed. I mean, I think that would make sense to all of us, wouldn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d813351a0f5348cd93d247855bf13093\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022537f17b90a1848a991379fcb92831398\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you want to hear from your coalition partner. The coalition partner Mr Seymour wants to hear free thinking and free speech. He wants all this free thinking. He wants everyone making a contribution through his rotten select committee process. I\u2019m thinking, \u201CWell, you\u2019ll have gangs\u201D you know, this is only fair. I\u2019m sure, if the Government thinks about it, a primary date, when we could do this all again, is probably 12 months from here. I\u2019m thinking 8 August 2025 is when we should resume this, because it would fall in line with the strategy that this Government is imploring, which is about attacking M\u0101oris every week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EA question for the Minister: given the ramifications of the Treaty principles bill and this legislation, has the Minister read the Waitangi Tribunal report with regards to colonisation and the effect of gangs? Has the Minister read the recommendations from the Tribunal which talk about working in tandem with M\u0101ori and not against M\u0101ori? That\u2019s a really important area when we consider what type of legislation we\u2019re trying to put in place at the moment, and I think it\u2019s only reasonable to ask that question. Then the types of consultation: what has gone down\u2014because we\u2019ve had iwi leaders in the last week meet with the Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac9ef40905f0472f81de5f63e3e5aa76\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Give us an example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aeffadf7c9f48f2aff7cf5f9598cb4c\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s right\u2014H\u016Bhana\u2019s relations there. Some of them walked out. Some of them stayed in to try and do a few deals, but, you know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235adf320d8214937867833a989d46cee\u0022\u003EH\u016Bhana Lyndon\u003C/span\u003E: Oppose from the inside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022650f5ad25cf04be99b7299cb6f32b996\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mariameno\u2019s relations\u2014some of them stayed in and did a few deals and then they came outside and criticised the Government. So, you know, M\u0101ori are playing it both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWhat type of consultation has the Minister\u2014and I respect we\u2019ve got a new Minister in the chair today. Has the Minister seen, with regards to this, particularly in terms of the commencement\u2014I come back to the commencement because of the strategies from this Government; strategies where M\u0101ori, sadly\u2014and I had another k\u014Drero tonight. Apparently, there\u2019s an attack now on Te Arawhiti. Yesterday, it was about te reo M\u0101ori from Mr Goldsmith. The day before, it was about iwi rights; it\u2019s about M\u0101ori rights. Given the type of kaupapa\u2014oh, yes, I\u2019m coming back to the commencement, Mr Chair. Given the types of things that are happening with the Treaty principles bill, I\u2019m saying today: would the Minister consider relooking at this in 12 months? We\u2019ll help him in that area. We\u2019ll be quite open in supporting the Government in delaying this because of the ramifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI\u2019m worried about the Government, because people are getting angry out there. You saw some of that behaviour up north yesterday from Mariameno\u2019s relations up there, very upset over the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc8cf14025942008cdb82293a92adfa\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Only your mates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6d09223d4cf4913915ae9ae905b03f2\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014Mariameno\u2019s relations up there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022298a28a0bc1d43fb852d47f3676894b5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Jackson, let\u2019s use some surnames, shall we? We\u2019re not in a bar now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d3e485429a049e2ae073a75a278b8e0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think I did. I used the full name. But thank you for that. I\u2019ll just continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIn terms of the commencement, it\u2019s really, really important because of the consequences in terms of M\u0101ori, and tribunal reports have to be considered. Consultation, in terms of M\u0101ori, has to be considered. All through this debate, you would have heard the concerns from te ao M\u0101ori, from M\u0101ori members, from P\u0101keh\u0101 members on this side of the Chamber, and Asian members. This is an Opposition focused on the rights of people. There\u2019s no big love affairs going down with gangs. People are talking about community\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022692da76f80c04961977476655dfb2670\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022692da76f80c04961977476655dfb2670\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to support the members in the Opposition who have pointed out we don\u2019t have the capacity nor the capability now for commencement. I worry about the time frame of waiting for Royal assent\u2014that\u2019s just around the corner. We\u2019ve heard from the Hon Ginny Andersen: 500 police short, and yet we\u2019re going to lump this on top of them, in a short period of time. If we were realistic around capacity and capability\u2014have we discussed with the judiciary? Are the judiciary ready to be flooded by more gang members in court? Are the prisons ready to take more M\u0101ori? Well, yes, they are, because they\u2019re building the mega-prison at Waikeria\u2014not houses for our people. K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s been shut down\u2014there\u2019s a big halt. That\u2019s the thing: are we preparing to house M\u0101ori in prison? This bill here is hazardous for te iwi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ELooking at the time frames, we are not ready. The infrastructure and services are not ready, let alone rehabilitation, let alone engaging with the community support services that Matua Willie has explained and provided examples time and time again on behalf of Ng\u0101 Whare Waatea. There are many programmes around that could be a part of a wider solution than just locking up our people. The judiciary needs to be ready. Prisons, are they ready? The cops are not ready. When we have a place like \u014Cp\u014Dtiki, with 2,000 gang members and two police, is \u014Cp\u014Dtiki ready? Is Kohukohu ready? Is Kae\u014D ready? Is Kaikohe ready? That\u2019s the reality on the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWhen you have the Police Commissioner and the Police Association coming up and saying, \u201CNo, we are not ready. We need more gang liaison officers. We need more takawaenga, those specialist support services within the police who are well-trained and have the skills, to be able to support this bill.\u201D\u2014but it\u2019s not going to be ready in time for Royal assent; that\u2019s just around the corner\u2014we need to be realistic around the time frames for implementing this, because there will be a flood of notifications, and, next minute, our wh\u0101nau are going to be hauled before the courts. Will we even have enough for security to start driving our people around from Ng\u0101wh\u0101 correctional facility? You know, this is the ground reality for us in Tai Tokerau, and it will be no different to those of our wh\u0101nau in Bay of Plenty, or even Tair\u0101whiti, where Matua Willie\u2019s from. So I want to ask the question: what\u2019s the rush?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIf we want this to be an effective law and we want it to be something that, actually, the police and the full system are ready for, why are we rushing to Royal assent instead of giving it a year, instead of really scoping it out? Has anyone priced this up? Has anyone in the Government priced up the implications of implementing such a law? What is the price to society? What is the price to police? What is the price to prisons and to the judiciary to implement this, when we are ignoring things such as the Matariki Court or in terms of the taitamariki court, which have very successful gang liaison officers and takawaenga? All of these specialist positions need to be expanded if we\u2019re going to go down this route and start banning people wearing their patches in public. These are things that the police have been doing well, and same with the judiciary, but are we really ready, New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EAre we really ready to start isolating a small number of wh\u0101nau in our community\u2014and they are our wh\u0101nau\u2014locking up more M\u0101ori because they affiliate with gangs, because they come from the product of colonisation? Two weeks ago, we were giving a mihi to all of the m\u014Drehu in this Whare. Two week ago, we were giving a beautiful mihi and acknowledging the harm: 90 percent of gang members come from the State harm that\u2019s been inflicted upon them. They don\u2019t even know how to read, some of our wh\u0101nau. They are neurodiverse, and they\u2019re already in prison. So can we focus on the rehab services that are required in prison, the community services that Ng\u0101 Whare Waatea and others perform in our communities? Because we\u2019re going to need a backstop. We\u2019re going to need a backstop in implementing this legislation, because, ultimately, the system is not ready.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo, for me, in terms of where we\u2019re at, Royal assent is too quick. Can we look at 18 months to ready the system? Can we look to work on the specialist positions that are required, and \u201Coomph up\u201D, expand, those community services and also the rehab services that are in prisons to support wh\u0101nau once they are caught by this bill? Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022789808b53a254bdaa86c4568f1a9c770\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022789808b53a254bdaa86c4568f1a9c770\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you to the member for that question. I would refer the member to clause 2 of the bill, which states that the commencement of this bill is from 21 November 2024. If the member wants to be reminded about the select committee process\u2014which, to the other member\u2019s question, involved a full process in terms of feedback from all related members\u2014those questions were covered in detail and the date is based on feedback and the date requested by the New Zealand Police that aligns with their operational requirements. On that basis, that is the date that has been selected. So everything that has been commented on is lovely, but it doesn\u2019t correspond to the reality of what the decision is based upon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d03cae574b3a49f68bd1839128a7b293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d03cae574b3a49f68bd1839128a7b293\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we\u2019ve had some quite good contextual speeches. Right now, title and commencement will be the subject of any talk. The Hon Tracey McLellan. Sorry, Tracey McLellan\u2014too early.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a29db81e975249e0b6173239e5ef9ca3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a29db81e975249e0b6173239e5ef9ca3\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I wanted to specifically also focus on the commencement date, because as we\u2019ve heard, the commencement date of 21 November is the commencement date, and I think that my colleague from the Green Party makes a really, really valid point, particularly in relation to prisons. We know, for instance, that, sure, there is some extra capacity coming on board. That won\u2019t be viable until at least third quarter, probably, next year, and we\u2019ve heard from the Hon Ginny Andersen about the shortage of police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIt was interesting; I know that the Minister was briefed earlier this year about what is the impact that the Government\u2019s policies might have on the prison population, certainly in the short term, and whilst it\u2019s just modelling and it\u2019s a bit of a guesstimate, it is, in fact, what we base that on. I notice that there was four particular lines in the table that were provided. The first one was section 27 reports, and that was assumed would increase the prison population by about 380 prisoners, and the second one was adding 300 police, which I note wasn\u2019t 500; it was 300. I\u2019m not sure whether that indicates, for instance, the Government\u2019s lack of confidence that they\u2019ll get to the 500 target, but nevertheless the estimate was that that would increase the prison population by 100. So we\u2019re already up to 400 of the increased capacity of the 500 beds that are coming on at Waikeria in the middle of next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThen, there were two lines that were redacted, and I\u2019m wondering whether the Minister, obviously, probably will have some further information about what those two entries were in, because we can\u2019t see (a) what they were. We can surmise that one of them may have been this gangs legislation\u2014that would make sense in so far as it being the next cab off the rank. But what we can tell is the total, and the total was 800. So we know there\u2019s an expectation of about 320 increased prisoners because of these two redacted pieces of policy that we\u2019re due to endure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen I think about 21 November as the commencement date, it really does create\u2014as has been said\u2014quite an impetus for some urgency. We know that prisons are bursting at the seams. We know that there are some infrastructure challenges in so far as rebuilds and people being moved all over the show to accommodate that and the huge cost that that incurs. So I would be interested in the Minister expressing a little bit more confidence in the commencement date on 21 November with some specifics about how that will be handled when we know full well that it will require that capacity and acknowledgment of such. Any information will be much appreciated, but particularly if he could comment on those two pieces of information that we\u2019re unable to get our hands on because they\u2019re redacted, but almost certainly are related to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022466f38b1717b43b0b41a8857180cd26d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022466f38b1717b43b0b41a8857180cd26d\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffdf3517335f4e459d1d6a98e73f6341\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffdf3517335f4e459d1d6a98e73f6341\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll go to the Hon Willie Jackson with the expectation that you will not drift very far, if at all, from the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022064a022fc8a74cefb76780488f07fdac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022064a022fc8a74cefb76780488f07fdac\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m really concerned about this bill, as the committee knows. I would like to talk about the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a412245bda1d443e8391fb5367a0ccc0\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Chair, the Standing Orders make it very clear that title and commencement in committee of the whole House is about getting up and asking the Minister questions. We\u2019ve had that member get up successively and give us 10-minute rants about nothing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022163845f6a23d48ad85c59396a7128d57\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Doocey, sit down! As you well know, that is a job for the Chair. Any more of that will be trifling with the House, so no more. Carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a49582f4f9044a628cec41ddfa0b4561\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m a bit disappointed that that member\u2019s not enjoying my submission, but I hope that he\u2019ll be able to learn something from this k\u014Drero, because I\u2019m talking about the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI want to help the other side of the committee out there because they\u2019re struggling with this title. Coincidentally, I got a phone call about the title just in the last few minutes from a gang member who wants to help out\u2014fully rehabilitated. His name\u2019s Martin Cooper. I\u2019m quite happy to name some of these gang members. In fact, Mr Chair, you would probably know some of them too, given your background and history in dealing with gangs too. This is someone who\u2019s really concerned about the title, which is what we\u2019re talking about. He sees the Gangs Legislation Amendment Bill, and he was part\u2014I\u2019m just giving you some background and history, Mr Chair\u2014of the work programmes that were in South Auckland. Martin Cooper worked and put young gangsters into work. He\u2019s suggesting, and I\u2019d have to agree with him, to call this the \u201CGang Legislation (Can You Find Us a Job?) Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI thought that was a pretty good suggestion from someone who\u2019s working at the grassroots. His story is one of redemption. You can google his story and you\u2019ll see that this guy has gone through the system, gang boss, everything, and now he\u2019s working on our committees, on our maraes at Ng\u0101 Whare Waatea, rehabilitating, working with young people, getting patches off gangsters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e993a0afecb4a969851850b2edb1ff0\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022400a48b30d1a475182c69b4a78af25b8\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Do you not want to hear these stories? These are beautiful stories. I know a lot of them. I can keep going till 6 o\u2019clock, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4b619723d0747469fc2cf981e9184cf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: As they relate to the title and commencement, Mr Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1255d55fbd442ac83cd0958e044ceef\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cooper is saying the title is misnamed. That\u2019s all I\u2019m trying to say here: the title is misnamed. He wants work, so why wouldn\u2019t you include\u2014this is the \u201CGang (We Want Work) Amendment Bill\u201D. That\u2019s all he\u2019s saying, you know? He\u2019s not a supporter of the young people going into gangs; he\u2019s a supporter of getting them busy, getting them activated, getting them rehabilitated, getting them to be productive so that our communities will be safe. This is what the Government wants. This is what we want. We\u2019re all on the same waka here, and they want to shut me down here today. I don\u2019t get this. I am trying to contribute and help\u2014particularly Mr Meager, he\u2019s done a wonderful job chairing the committee; I\u2019m trying to help him along, trying to help the Government along, and all I\u2019m getting is insults from the other side of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThese are real people. These people wouldn\u2019t know gang members if they fell over them. We work with them on our marae, which the Government funds\u2014can I be very clear: funds our marae. They\u2019re all very welcome to come to the marae. I\u2019ve got an open invitation to the Government to come to our marae. They will see firsthand how a community deals with some of these gang members, ex - gang members. I can tell you now, it\u2019s not a soft hand given. My mother, Mr Chair, 20 years on the Parole Board, as you well know\u2014some of the gang members used to hide from her because she was so tough on them. There\u2019s no softly, softly approach here. I know now that, if Mum was alive, she would agree with the new title on this gang legislation. Yes. Bless her soul, my mother. She would say, \u201CLet\u2019s find them some work, son, and you\u2019ll stop them from all the nonsense that they\u2019re doing.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut, seriously, if we activate, motivate, get these wh\u0101nau involved, we would stop some of this nonsense that\u2019s happening out in our communities. We all want the same thing, but it\u2019s not just about taking patches off the backs of these gangs; it\u2019s about working at the coalface, it\u2019s about dismantling their assets, it\u2019s about taking away from them what is dear. You heard Eugene Ryder through the select committee process: you take the patches off, and they\u2019ll just wear colours. It\u2019s just nonsensical legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s all work together on this. Let\u2019s delay this for another 12 months. I\u2019m going to seek the call again, too, Mr Chair. I don\u2019t know if I\u2019ve quite reached the point I wanted to, but I think I\u2019ll get there over the next 10 minutes, if you give me the call again. But it\u2019s about supporting our communities, supporting our country\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u00228e7c7a3d1e1c441ab9ae4c385f71848c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e7c7a3d1e1c441ab9ae4c385f71848c\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c2a973d6afc542fdb9c29769e63fb249\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdef1117a49b4a8e8c0232b8d6f0b2ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdef1117a49b4a8e8c0232b8d6f0b2ee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d25af8a1f11d4b23a7e17c78e2b94abc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e19309b5e76e44008587bd14221f8d16\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022486458650c2548debe5fe3f326234f62\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00221e5f45d2ae2d4add90fdc6aad0bc2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e5f45d2ae2d4add90fdc6aad0bc2fc5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I move Amendment Paper 50, dividing the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c7e62fa393af4b2888526b1f8ed099f7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000470\u0022\u003EThe committee divided the bill into the Gangs Bill and the Sentencing Amendment Bill, as set out on Amendment Paper 50.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229e8cb660b8d14337b3edf277ed63e0e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e8cb660b8d14337b3edf277ed63e0e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll report this bill with amendment and so divided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment and divided into two bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4f3a4d0a7484f9399e7d6d9d497d203\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000474\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 7 August.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c2807b7822e4217bf36a8bcd7e14489\u0022\u003EPart 2  Water services delivery plans and foundational information disclosure requirements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229465d7efc2354568867a1fff394a030c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229465d7efc2354568867a1fff394a030c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. When we were last considering the bill, we were debating Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 8 to 46B, \u201CWater services delivery plans and foundational information disclosure requirements\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00222fadb3a28b38479b928d6bae889667b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fadb3a28b38479b928d6bae889667b1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Just a reminder of what we were doing in terms of working through the committee stage of this bill: we were going part by part, but, in actual fact, there are three quite substantive subparts to Part 2 of the bill. We had worked our way through Part 1 and, when the debate last closed on this, we were making our way through Part 2\u2014Subpart 2 of Part 2. So we haven\u2019t yet even begun to address any part of Subpart 3 of Part 2. Indeed, we have quite a few questions left and issues to discuss relating to Subpart 2 of Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EJust as a reminder, Subpart 2 of Part 2 exercises itself with what the Minister can do in relation to water services delivery plans\u2014so, specifically about those ministerial powers. Now, we had just started discussing it but had just a very few speeches on it. There is a particular issue I want to bring up fairly early on, and it\u2019s a point of contrast within Subpart 2 of Part 2, because Subpart 2 of Part 2 gives the Minister the power to do a couple of things\u2014very specific powers that the Minister can exercise. She or he can appoint under clause 20, \u201Cmay appoint a Crown facilitator\u201D, and under clause 23 he or she \u201Cmay appoint a Crown water services specialist\u201D. So there are two types of roles to which the Minister can appoint people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ETo be honest, looking in terms of what these people can do, they do seem to cross over in quite some degree as to what a Crown facilitator can do versus what a Crown water specialist can do. It\u2019s not even necessarily particularly clear in which circumstances a Minister would appoint a Crown facilitator versus when she or he would appoint a Crown water services specialist. So for the benefit of the many people following at home at 5.40 on a Thursday evening\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ad13e3605db4d0c9ace4810ceb310a6\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s quite a lot of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ec841f5f924466aa4a38642b60b1460\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, plenty of people following along, I should think. Actually, for the benefit of everyone who will want to understand the differences between these two roles\u2014and also in terms of making sure it\u2019s in the Hansard. Again, it\u2019s possible that this could be litigated at some stage, and one point of litigation might be whether it was appropriate to appoint a Crown facilitator versus a Crown water services specialist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo there are a couple of things that I would like to hear from the Minister in this regard. One is the difference between the roles of these two people. Now, I\u2019m just going to note that the person may be a panel\u2014all right. So the bill does explain that it could be one individual, but it could also be a panel of people. That\u2019s obviously just a decision for the Minister as well. But what I want to understand is the difference between the roles of the facilitator and the specialist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also trying to understand when the Minister would appoint those people. What would cause the Minister to decide on one of these roles rather than the others? Is it a time-based thing\u2014as in, sort of a time during the process - based thing? Is it based on the particular needs of the underlying regional territorial authority? What exactly is that that would drive that difference there? I think it\u2019s worth getting that on the record for the Hansard, so that we do have an understanding of it recorded. Who knows, it might prevent future litigation or it might not, but it would certainly give us a good explanation as to what is going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002211baa87fb632407c8821fd735d187df4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211baa87fb632407c8821fd735d187df4\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just to reinforce what the previous speaker, the Hon Dr Deborah Russell, has said, for us, we\u2019re also currently on Part\u00A02, Subpart 2 out of three subparts for this particular section. In the previous session, one of my colleagues\u2014Francisco Hernandez\u2014mentioned around the criteria for appointment of the Crown facilitator as well as the Crown water services specialist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would like to sort of change the focus in a slightly different way and look at, in this case, clause 20(4), which is that when we\u2019re looking at a Crown facilitator\u2014a Crown facilitator can be a singular person\u2014according to subclause (3) of clause 20, it can be one person or a panel of two or more people. And if it is a panel of two or more people, then the Minister must appoint one member as the chairperson. My question to the Minister is if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying whether it\u2019s a standard practice to appoint just one person as a chairperson, or is there room or opportunity\u2014why was it limited, the co-chair option?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe reason that I raise this is because subclause 2(b)(ii) of clause 20, which is where the Minister is able to or may consider appointing a Crown facilitator on the grounds that a group of territorial authorities are having difficulties agreeing on the terms of a joint plan. This is interesting in terms of tying it to a previous clause, clause 17(3)(b)(iii). But I want to focus on the fact of what happens if you\u2019re in a situation where the group is having difficulty agreeing to a joint plan and the best opportunity for there to be an agreement is to appoint co-chairs from, for example, either of the group, as opposed to limiting it to one particular member, which then may further create friction between the two groups who may not be in agreement. Of course, the Minister is within their right to appoint this, as someone who is completely independent, but I\u2019m just checking if that option of having co-chairs was considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe next part I want to mention, as a part of clarification from the Minister, is around clause 21(2)(da). Now, this is how a Crown facilitator is appointed, which is, essentially, the same clause as clause 24(2)(da) as well. I would like to focus specifically on, if the Crown facilitator or the water service specialist is appointed, how renumeration and expenses of the Crown facility will be apportioned between territorial authorities. Now, I\u2019ve got two points of clarification, and the first part of that has to do with the actual cost itself, which is detailed in clause 29, of the fees framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, in clause 29(2), it talks about the fees framework being determined by the Government. When we are searching in terms of the fees framework, we have both the Government fees framework as well as local government and also territorial authorities fees frameworks. To give an example based on 2022\u2019s determination, the Government fees framework for someone who is in a position of a chair and scores a score of 24 to 28, is $594 to $1,265. However, for Auckland Council, for the same band of score 24 to 28, it is the cost of $540 to $1,150, which is less. So, in this case, if the territorial authority\u2014the reason that they\u2019re being appointed a Crown facilitator is because they have not been able to manage the plan or been able to manage some of the cost. Having the Government determination as opposed to the local government determination may also add additional financial burden to the local government as well\u2014so that point of clarification as well from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIf he wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying whether that has been taken into consideration\u2014that if we\u2019re using the Government determination, it will be at a greater cost to the territorial authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3804a7ea7664dd6bdfdc93279372157\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3804a7ea7664dd6bdfdc93279372157\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and just to acknowledge Lawrence Xu-Nan, who gave me flashbacks to the time he kept me here till midnight for the ACC debit instalment bill\u2014something I am still trying to recover from! Clearly, he\u2019s getting settled in for another marathon effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ETo the Hon Dr Russell, in response to some questions around appointing a Crown facilitator versus a Crown water services specialist\u2014is the crossover clear? What are the circumstances around appointment?\u2014I\u2019ve been advised that a Crown facilitator is mainly for assistance to councils during the preparation of water services delivery plans. It\u2019s the intention that they can be available to advise and assist councils, whereas Crown water services specialists are for when a council fails to submit a plan at all, and mainly when the Minister has lost confidence in a council\u2019s ability to develop a suitable plan or to give effect to the plan. So which of the appointments might be needed will depend, clearly, on the situation and what kind of skills are needed at that point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e219049c188b44b3bf8ccf7637491114\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e219049c188b44b3bf8ccf7637491114\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I have some comments on Subpart 2, but then I\u2019m going to move to Subpart 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOn those last comments from the Minister, I\u2019d like to go back to something another Minister in the chair said earlier: that the point of these plans is to not be top-up, like apparently the last Government\u2019s approach was, according to the Minister, and to go from the bottom-up. These plans are supposed to be simple for the councils to do. We heard that internal affairs is going to provide Excel spreadsheets to make it all very easy. So I\u2019m wondering why it is that there needs to be either of these sets of people that the Hon Dr Deborah Russell was asking about\u2014which you\u2019ve just answered about, Minister\u2014but also why, at clause 30, there needs to be the recovery of remuneration and expenses from local authorities such that the \u201Cterritorial authority owes a debt to the Crown\u201D. If this is just all about being bottom-up, surely there is no need for clauses such as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, moving on to Subpart 3\u2014and I\u2019m not saying that my colleagues don\u2019t have further questions on Subpart 2, but I\u2019m now on to Subpart 3. I\u2019ve spent a bit of time on the purpose of this subpart. This is at clause 32, and I think some parts go against other parts of clause 32, so I\u2019m looking for some clarity from the Minister on this. We have at clause 32 that \u201C(a) The purpose[s] of the subpart [are] to promote the long-term benefit of consumers of water services\u201D\u2014that sounds quite good\u2014and \u201C(b) to ensure that sufficient information is \u2026 available\u201D. Then we go to clause 32(2), which talks about for innovation, for improving efficiency, and for providing water services \u201Cat a quality that reflects consumer demands\u201D. Again, this all sounds good, but the rest of this part seems to be about information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo my first question on how this purpose works is: how is it that incentives are going to be provided that go beyond the provision of information, which is what the subpart seems to be about? To my reading, it looks like a contradiction there. But then there\u2019s some further strange drafting in this part, because at clause 32(3) it says, \u201CThis subpart\u2014(a) relates only to delivering the purpose of this Act under section 3(1) and (2)(c);\u201D. So those purposes relate to the overall framework and the disclosure of information, and \u201Capplies in relation to delivering water services only in circumstances where there is\u2014(1) little or no competition \u2026 and (11) \u2026 no likelihood of that competition.\u201D Is this entire subpart only to areas that aren\u2019t going to have competition? And why are we thinking about competition for the delivery of stormwater measures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis all goes back to water services. Water services are defined to include, of course, stormwater, so I\u2019m wondering what clause 32(3) is about, and then how it also links with clause 33. In clause 32, you\u2019ve got this specific subpart restricting what it relates to, and then you have another clause\u2014clause 33\u2014just over the page, which says, \u201CApplication of this subpart\u201D. If you\u2019ve already said in the clause before that it only applies to some of it, why do you need another clause to go on about the application of that subpart? So how do those two link together?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen also on Subpart 3, at clause 40A, there\u2019s provision for a levy. The Finance and Expenditure Committee report says, \u201CWell, this is for any Commerce Commission work that might happen.\u201D But what is that work that might be happening and how is that levy good for councils? The Minister in the chair yesterday asserted that this bill is going be good for councils. I\u2019m not sure wh the levy is there. I\u2019d also remind the Minister that Duncan Webb\u2019s point about councils that are not contiguous has still not been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00228c36c350edb4426cb5f0573735d2a4a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c36c350edb4426cb5f0573735d2a4a9\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019m mindful of the time boundaries, so I did want to get on my feet and just respond to some questions\u2014but potentially not all, as they might have to come back at the next round of the committee of the whole House. One question we were asked around the expenses and fees framework\u2014I\u2019ve been advised this approach is consistent with what happens in the Local Government Act in relation to other appointees made by the Minister, potentially such as a Crown manager or Crown observer if there are problems with the local authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222996bbbe33af4c5dad37594488202123\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222996bbbe33af4c5dad37594488202123\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229efba22f95244ec09acf8b4053e3f143\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df05fb37b684427f963dc21bfa27d0fe\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220f4321a0d2e2421b82b36dd2c395b662\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f4321a0d2e2421b82b36dd2c395b662\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Gangs Legislation Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment and divided into the following bills: the Gangs Bill, and the Sentencing Amendment Bill. The committee has also considered the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229dea53f40cd24ef086927724e23a8917\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dea53f40cd24ef086927724e23a8917\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Gangs Bill and the Sentencing Amendment Bill are set down for third reading next sitting day. The Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill is set down for further consideration in committee next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 20 August 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240808e9e86ddd2b954511bde8735bb6f2fc4d000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.57 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"