"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002291ac3141db894ccaaa41ff9d98da26e5\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 20 AUGUST 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3c1b9f6dbe9471c9ce1e1bc972bcdca\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 20 AUGUST 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226de307c89bd84290887a507d748d873f\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022466dbf8c9efd4444abd4d1e5d2deb4c5\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002240d9223fc6b6448b9e7b6949d5852136\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240d9223fc6b6448b9e7b6949d5852136\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Labour\u2014Panmure-\u014Ct\u0101huhu):\u003C/span\u003E Ke tau lotu. \u2018E \u2018Otua Mafimafi, kuo mau taa\u2019i m\u0101lie \u2018i ho\u2019o \u2018of\u00E1 mo e ngaahi t\u0101puaki hono kotoa. \u2018Oku tuku homau lot\u00F3 ka mau h\u016B atu ke malu\u2019i ange mu\u2019a \u2018a e Tu\u2019i, mo tataki \u2018emau fua fatongia \u2018i he Fale Ale\u00E1 \u2018aki \u2018a e poto Faka-\u2019Otua, \u2018ofa pea mo e \u2018ulungaanga mal\u016B, ko e \u2018uh\u00ED ko e mo\u2019ui mo e melino \u2018a e fonu\u00E1. \u2018Oku mau kole atu \u2018a e ngaahi me\u2019\u00E1 ni hono kotoa \u2018i he huafa ho \u2018alo ka ko homau fakamo\u2019u\u00ED, \u2018Emeni.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c561ee222fe485eb597642a54ee272a\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d067d996de249618bf6974100328a57\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Olympic Team\u2014Congratulations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7937e496dcf470489420d6611d4de9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7937e496dcf470489420d6611d4de9b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave to move a motion without notice congratulating the New Zealand Olympic team on their achievements at the 2024 Olympic Games in Paris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279015974e6224c719df92c579158d751\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa83e1596d514df4ae33834fb426c4ac\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House congratulate the New Zealand Olympics team, comprising 204 athletes across 23 sports, on their success at the 2024 Summer Olympics in Paris, where they won 10 gold medals, seven silver medals, and three bronze medals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EOn behalf of all of the Government, I congratulate the New Zealand Olympic team on its incredible performances and achievements at the Olympic Games in Paris. These games were historic for New Zealand, not just for matching our record tally of 20 medals in Tokyo but for clinching the most gold medals New Zealand has ever won and finishing 11th on the medal table, ahead of such sporting powerhouses with far bigger populations, such as Canada, Spain, and Sweden. Our athletes, without exception, performed with skill, determination, and integrity. One brilliant statistic is that of our team of 204 athletes, 42 of them are coming home with at least one medal around their neck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ENow, we had many notable and standout performances across the 17 days of action and competition. But I want to acknowledge a few in particular. Dame Lisa Carrington has etched her name in Olympic history with her eighth gold medal. [Interruption] Yep, between her eight golds and the bronze that she won in Rio, Dame Lisa is comfortably New Zealand\u2019s most decorated Olympian. To put that feat into the historical context it deserves, eight gold medals is bigger than the haul managed by any of Spain, Sweden, Brazil, or Hungary in Paris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EHamish Kerr also made history by becoming the first New Zealand male to win a field event in the Olympic track and field programme. His jump-off in the final was probably responsible for an increase in heart palpitations right across New Zealand. But what a fantastic result it was in the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI have to say, I personally also enjoyed Lydia Ko\u2019s impressive performance, winning gold in the women\u2019s golf. Frankly, for an athlete who has done it all, to see her with immense pride, standing on that podium, hearing our national anthem, was something pretty special.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EThe super-mums Brooke Francis and Lucy Spoors have worked so hard and also juggled family life so well to win gold in the women\u2019s double sculls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EWe had Finn Butcher, the boy from Alexandra, whose gold at the inaugural men\u2019s kayak K1 cross event saw him honoured as our flagbearer at the closing ceremony.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EAnd then we saw the cool clutch, mental skills, and poised maturity of 24-year-old Ellesse Andrews winning gold in the women\u2019s keirin and also the women\u2019s sprint, as well as being part of a silver medal - winning team sprint crew.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EAnd then there was our women\u2019s sevens team, whose epic final against Canada resulted in the gold medal in front of an ecstatic Stade de France crowd, thanks in part to a heroic try assist by captain Sarah Hirini, who, despite having several fractures in her face during that game, managed to set it up for a win.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI mentioned Lisa Carrington earlier, but I can\u2019t go without also mentioning her paddling teammates. Our women\u2019s K2 crew of Dame Lisa and Alicia Hoskin were utterly dominant in their final, finishing more than a boat length ahead of their rivals. And our women\u2019s K4 team of Dame Lisa and Alysha, along with Olivia Brett and Tara Vaughan came home victorious ahead of European paddling powerhouses Germany and Hungary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI could keep going for a long time because every one of our athletes, whether they medalled or not, produced performances that, frankly, inspired and delighted us. I do want to echo the remarks of the Minister for Sport and Recreation, the Hon Chris Bishop, when he said that our athletes\u2019 performances had been magnificent and that every one of them exemplified our values of fair play and integrity that New Zealanders are known for across the sporting world. Our athletes\u2019 respect for their competitors, their commitment to fair play, and their ability to forge lasting friendships across nations showcased, I think, the true spirit of the games. In the men\u2019s triathlon, for example, New Zealanders cheered Dylan McCullough for his selfless act which actually ruled him out of the medals to ensure that Hayden Wilde had a shot at a podium finish, and then we proudly watched Hayden\u2019s heartwarming gesture and sportsmanship towards Great Britain\u2019s Alex Yee, despite Alex having just pipped him at the post for a gold medal. I also know that Lydia Ko and Maddi Wesche were acknowledged for their support and their encouragement of fellow competitors, exemplifying the true essence of Olympic values, excellence, respect, and friendship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EAdditionally, two former New Zealand Olympians were elected to roles with the International Olympic Committee (IOC). Beijing 2008 silver medallist Sarah Walker from BMX was elected as an independent IOC member. And Tokyo 2020 bronze medallist Marcus Daniell from tennis will join the IOC\u2019s Athletes Commission. As members of the IOC, they will be instrumental in shaping the future of the Olympic movement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EFurthermore, Barbara Kendall, triple medallist in windsurfing and a Kiwi Olympic icon, has been honoured as an Olympian for Life\u2014one of only five former Olympians to have been recognised in that way in Paris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EIt takes a huge team effort to get even one athlete to the starting line at the Olympics, let alone 204 of them. So I do want to take a moment to recognise all of those who have been a part of the team behind the team. Thank you to the New Zealand Olympic Committee, thank you to High Performance Sport, and Sport New Zealand, who all worked incredibly hard to get our team to Paris. Thank you also to all the sponsors and the donors whose generosity helped our amazing team succeed. Thank you to all of those on the ground, including our 75 volunteers who helped establish New Zealand House, our very Kiwi home base situated on the famous Champs-Elysees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ENew Zealand House served as a gathering place for around 20,000 people during the games\u2014New Zealand ex-pats, friends and family of athletes, and often the athletes themselves, as well as curious Parisians and international tourists who were keen to see a little slice of New Zealand and to experience some of our food, wine, and hospitality. The team also hosted international sports Ministers and heads of international sporting federations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI do want to extend a very, very special thankyou to our incredible chef de mission, Nigel Avery, and his team of operations, sports performance, health, psychology, communications, athlete support experts, and volunteers, who worked so tirelessly to ensure that New Zealand not only had a successful Olympic campaign but also a memorable presence in the village and in Paris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EPerhaps most importantly, I want to say thank you to all the families, partners, and the friends of the athletes. I know how many of you have made huge sacrifices to enable your loved one to compete on the international stage. Our athletes couldn\u2019t do what they do without your unwavering support and love, and I hope you feel so proud\u2014and so justifiably so\u2014of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EIn closing, let me remind you that the sporting excitement isn\u2019t over yet. I do want to take the opportunity to wish all of our New Zealand Paralympic team all the very best as they compete in the Paralympic Games beginning in Paris next week. Know that New Zealand is behind you 100 percent and that we\u2019re going to be cheering you on loudly from the sidelines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ECongratulations once again to all our athletes on your very inspiring performances. Thank you for representing and thank you for being the very best of us. I know I speak for all of New Zealand when I say how immensely, immensely proud we are of you all. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b70f56645fb942ffb69aa22b8dcddb74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b70f56645fb942ffb69aa22b8dcddb74\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002285a9f0665a9a4f9783b833e2b52e9329\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285a9f0665a9a4f9783b833e2b52e9329\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I stand in support of the motion and endorse the words of the Prime Minister in congratulating all of our athletes, who did an absolutely stellar job at the Olympics in Paris. I\u2019m reminded of the cheering that comes from the hallways of this House. I\u2019m reminded of the many conversations that are had in this House and outside of this House about how proud we are, as we cheered on our athletes in their sports. Can I also endorse the words of thanks to their coaches, the administration of sports right across New Zealand, and in particular the families, many who made the trip and many who did not, who stayed home and cheered on their loved ones as they competed at the highest level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWith all those thanks, I\u2019m also reminded of just how important M\u0101ori culture is on the international stage. We saw our athletes not only partake in the haka but also speak te reo M\u0101ori, marking our difference as we competed on the world stage with athletes from around the world\u2014athletes like Eliza McCartney, who can deliver a full speech in te reo M\u0101ori in thanking the support that she received from fellow athletes and also those administrators and wh\u0101nau who made it there to support her. I\u2019m proud of the way that New Zealand stands on the world stage. That will no doubt continue as our Paralympians make their way to the Games to compete on the biggest stage in the world, and I look forward to making sure that this House supports our Paralympians as we get behind them and they compete against others from around the world to once again hoist the New Zealand flag high above everybody else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI heard what the Prime Minister said about our track and field gold, and I do want to acknowledge, as was mentioned to me by one of my colleagues, Dame Yvette Williams, who was one of our famed Olympians, a gold medallist in the long jump, if I recall correctly, in 1952, I think it was, in Helsinki, who did us all extremely proud. When I think of the legacy of the likes of Dame Yvette Williams and so many others, we know that the record-breaking attempts and efforts of our athletes in Paris, in the most recent Games, will continue into the future. We now put Paris behind us, and we look forward to supporting our Paralympians and, of course, we have a view towards the next big sporting commitment for our Olympians, which is in four years\u2019 time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOn behalf of the Labour Party, I stand in support of this motion. I thank all of our athletes, their wh\u0101nau, and administrators, and I say to our Paralympians, \u201CAll the very best.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u002216555660eaa342c7a295defe0a4c137a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216555660eaa342c7a295defe0a4c137a\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker, and thank you. I stand in support of this motion and support the words of our Prime Minister and the Hon Peeni Henare. We would like today to congratulate our wonderful New Zealand Olympic Games team for their outstanding performance at the Paris Olympics. It was a historic achievement for us, with Aotearoa\u2019s athletes securing 20 medals, as we\u2019ve heard\u201410 gold, seven silver, and three bronze. But what makes this all the more special is that 14 of these 20 medals were won by our extraordinary women athletes and women\u2019s teams. They\u2019ve not only inspired us but they\u2019ve set a powerful example for future generations of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThis success comes down to preparation. In October 2018, the then New Zealand Government launched a strategy to address the inequities women and girls experience in sport and recreation, the women and girls in sport initiative. As we can see, the results of this initiative have been massive, and not only in the Olympics. Women\u2019s rugby is now thriving, for example, and I hear Grant Robertson is very pleased down in \u014Ctepoti Dunedin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard the congratulations for Lisa Carrington, Lydia Ko, and all of our athletes that have done so, so well. I also want to think about tae kwon do, because tae kwon do is my sport. I wanted to see our athletes, and I was sad to see the muck-up that denied Eisa Mozhdeh and Jemesa Landers a chance to compete, but I think it\u2019s really, really important that we recognise that our athletes, their support staff, their families all experience the blood, sweat, and tears of preparation\u2014years of preparation. Everyone who pushes themselves deserves to be congratulated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe know that competing is a costly exercise, so special mention has to go to rower Robbie Manson, who took to posing on an OnlyFans website to raise funds. For those who don\u2019t know, OnlyFans is a subscription-based service used for publishing adult-themed content, so there are ways and there are creative ways to get to the Olympics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThe success of our athletes in Paris goes far beyond medals and records, however. As we heard, as Rahui Papa highlighted in a speech at Koreneihana yesterday, the culturality that team New Zealand brought to Paris was seen and felt by all. Our athletes didn\u2019t just compete; they carried the identity and spirit of Aotearoa with them, showcasing our unique cultural identity on the world stage. This cultural knowledge and cultural acceptance has been a cornerstone of their success, and we need to continue the celebration of our unique identity here based on Te Tiriti here at home. Our athletes demonstrated kaupapa M\u0101ori in their victories, and we in the Greens join in acknowledging and celebrating the extraordinary accomplishments of team New Zealand in Paris. They went over there with determination and grit, they demonstrated indomitable spirit, and they came back as world champions, making us incredibly proud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo I should say, \u201CCongratulations, team New Zealand.\u201D, or possibly, \u201CF\u00E9licitations\u201D and \u201CBravo pour les bons efforts.\u201D, and I hope our House will support the Paralympics just as thoroughly as they have supported the Olympics. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u002265e296eccf3d4eb89446daef1801b600\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265e296eccf3d4eb89446daef1801b600\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Today, I stand to represent the ACT Party in support of the motion and in expressing our pride for the athletes that donned the silver fern and represented our nation on the world stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EFirstly, I\u2019d also like to start by opening up and saying thank you to the host nation, France, and particularly Paris. Thank you for welcoming the world to your backyard and showing us the beauty of your iconic venues and the rich culture and history held above and below the Parisian streets. I would also like to mention Teahupo\u2019o, Tahiti, right here in the Pacific. The small coastal town has now hosted the second surfing event at the Olympics, after its introduction at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics. The two locals who made their childhood dream come true\u2014congratulations to you both on competing in your home shores and for welcoming the world, through their Olympic surfers, to the Pacific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EMy family bought a Sky subscription just to keep up with the Olympics. The kids loved watching the events and keeping an eye on our Kiwi champions. Every morning at breakfast, they\u2019d catch up on the events they were already invested in and the ones which they discovered during the games, calculating how old they\u2019d be at the next games, and I saw how invested the kids were. The Olympics provide a glimpse into our hopeful future, showing our children that they too can achieve greatness and excel on the world stage. My hope is that we see New Zealand\u2019s Olympic contingent, rich in quality and quantity, heading to Los Angeles next, and then across the ditch to Brisbane for the 2032 Olympics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EThe games are huge for families, and I\u2019d like, along with other members of this House, to do a big shout-out to the mums, dads, and all the wh\u0101nau behind the scenes who helped every one of our athletes reach their potential. Achievements like these take a long time and a lot of energy, patience, and petrol money\u2014not only from our Olympians but also from the people who support them and rally around them. To the parents watching from home with the kids, the grandparents babysitting the grandkids, and all the support networks that have formed around these world-class athletes, I thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EMost of all, I would like to honour our Olympians. They spent thousands of hours behind the scenes, often alone, doing the hard yards to achieve greatness\u2014you are our inspiration. You have pushed through adversity, sweat, and tears to reach the pinnacle of achievement in your field. We stand here in Parliament today to congratulate you and celebrate your success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EOur 20 medals came from across a whole wide range of sports, from athletics, canoe slalom, golf, rowing, rugby sevens, sailing, track cycling, and triathlon. Ellesse Andrews became the second New Zealander to win gold in track cycling, after Sarah Ulmer in 2004. She won gold in the women\u2019s keirin. Her father and coach, Jon Andrews, was watching in the Paris Velodrome. Talk about a huge win for their family and the legacy that Ellesse has worked hard to secure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ELucy Spoors and Brooke Francis combined to win gold in the women\u2019s double sculls. Both athletes took time away from the sport to have children post - Tokyo Olympics and absolutely blew everybody away with their commitment and love for their sport. Both were supported by their children, who were present in the stands when they won.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EWe saw the selfless feat of Dylan McCullough falling back during the triathlon to provide much-needed support to his teammate Hayden Wilde, who ended up winning the silver medal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EAnd who can go past Dame Lisa Carrington? Already an Olympic champion, she brought home multiple gold medals. She is one of the greatest kayakers the world has ever seen. She was also part of two rowing teams, both securing gold. She leaves Paris having won the same number of gold medals as Usain Bolt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EAs we wrap up our celebration of the Olympics, we can look forward to the Paralympics coming up in the next few weeks. To our flag bearers, Anna and Cameron, carry our flag with pride and know that we are proud of what you have achieved and that we are excited to see you compete. My family look forward to keeping up with the Paralympics, and I wish all our Kiwi Paralympians the best of luck heading to Paris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EBehind all these achievements, behind all the medals, our Olympians captured our hearts. From the inspiring stories of new mums competing and winning gold to our young up-and-coming athletes and to families training, coaching, and winning together, the future of New Zealand sport is brighter than ever. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c73093afdbb945c5845b41b1606371d3\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, and Select Committee Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d0ebde1b16d4c0b9b3d02f3394e479b\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, and Select Committee Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224a3bfb2e90f5456a8a585727138d840e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a3bfb2e90f5456a8a585727138d840e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions have been presented to the Clerk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00229a225abb5fb54657b7effda182a9f48a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a225abb5fb54657b7effda182a9f48a\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Seiji Tonouchi requesting that the House allocate funding to allow epilepsy patients to choose any anti-epileptic medication without conditions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Bob McCoskrie on behalf of Family First requesting that the House define \u201Cwoman\u201D as \u201Can adult human female\u201D in all New Zealand laws, public policies, and regulations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of John Hellstrom requesting that the House not repeal the Animal Welfare Amendment Act 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Stop Institutional Racism requesting that the House urge the Government to re-establish Te Aka Whai Ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002246695151c0ca4344b7e5781473968b4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246695151c0ca4344b7e5781473968b4e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6f47e2f94ce4adc8d5317ec9a52ef1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6f47e2f94ce4adc8d5317ec9a52ef1c\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment responses to the petitions of Kristin Davis and Peter James Cullinane\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EClimate Change Commission Progress report: National Adaptation Plan (August 2024)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand Monetary Policy Statement August 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7483d9e750f46cf831224673817999d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7483d9e750f46cf831224673817999d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the report of the Controller and Auditor-General entitled Insights into local government: 2023 and the annual review into the Parliamentary Service Commission for the year ended 30 June 2024. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022325156648c83486da795bf7d34f8f90f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022325156648c83486da795bf7d34f8f90f\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the 2024-25 Estimates for Vote Business, Science and Innovation (excluding appropriations related to the Retail Crime Subsidy, the Health Research Fund, and New Zealand Trade and Enterprise\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Education and Workforce Committee on the: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Education and Vote Education Review Office (excluding the appropriation related to the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Labour Market (excluding the appropriation related to border support services)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Tertiary Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Health Committee on the 2024-25 Estimates for Vote Health and appropriations within Vote Labour Market (border support) and Vote Business, Science and Innovation (Health Research Fund)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Primary Production Committee on the: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Agriculture, Biosecurity, Fisheries and Food Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Forestry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 Estimates for Vote Lands\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the briefing on retrospective change of limitation periods and the truncating of appeal rights in secondary legislation in response to an emergency event. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022acf42dc077474de4bff43836fae5d3fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acf42dc077474de4bff43836fae5d3fb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The briefing is set down for consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d5a9e6eaa8b435bae64d74ff6082084\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f01ccc8cff14fb28f5c08ee608a71e7\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Olympic Team\u2014Congratulations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002259c2e93b93054714a9cd136238054db3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259c2e93b93054714a9cd136238054db3\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave, please. Our huge apologies, we didn\u2019t realise that the other party wasn\u2019t taking a call, and we would welcome the opportunity to take the call, particularly for the Olympics. My apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d830702107554cdfa171e028d110a873\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d830702107554cdfa171e028d110a873\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we can\u2019t generally go back. Are you seeking leave for a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284cb213037344da79585397afe68f09b\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I said I was seeking leave. Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224826ebd82ff743378a27387d481d1525\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for an additional call recognising the Olympic team. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u00222745ae6a648f4d518c62d803ed548035\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222745ae6a648f4d518c62d803ed548035\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Ng\u0101 mihi nui i roto i ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga o ng\u0101 Taum\u0101hekeheke o te Ao, me te whai w\u0101hi o Aotearoa Niu Tireni ki roto ki aua whakam\u0101tautautanga puta noa i te ao, me te eke panuku, te eke tangaroa o \u0101 t\u0101tou hau tipua i roto i \u0113r\u0101 mahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira e mihi ana an\u014D hoki i runga i ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga ki a Kahurangi Lisa Carrington, te uri o Te Aitanga a Mahaki, Te Whakat\u014Dhea, me Rongomaiwahine, otir\u0101 ki t\u0113r\u0101 hau tipua, Portia Woodman, i whakanuia wh\u0101nuitia puta noa i te ao ki runga i ana highlight reels m\u014D t\u014Dna hau tipuatanga i roto i te ao whutup\u014Dro.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all. Greetings to all of us of this House. Many greetings with respect to the aspects of the Olympics, and Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s participation in those tests all across the world, and the successes of our supreme athletes in those activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EI would also like to acknowledge, with respect to those circumstances, Dame Lisa Carrington, the descendant of Te Aitanga a Mahaki, Te Whakat\u014Dhea, and Rongomaiwahine, indeed to that other talented athlete, Portia Woodman, who was widely praised all across the world on her highlight reels for her prodigious talent in the rugby world.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori would like to add our congratulations, and thank you for your grace, e te Speaker. Mihi to our athletes who went and represented our country so well, and, as has been said, Kahurangi Lisa Carrington, Dame Lisa Carrington, the descendant\u2014proud descendant, I might add\u2014of Te Aitanga-a-M\u0101haki, of Te Whakat\u014Dhea, and the famous iwi of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, Ng\u0101ti Rongomaiwahine. And who could forget\u2014and I bet you no one missed\u2014Portia Woodman\u2019s highlight reels that spun around the world for a good two weeks; he uri n\u014D Ng\u0101puhi, he hau tipua ki te reo M\u0101ori, a wahine toa [a descendant of Ng\u0101puhi, a champion of the M\u0101ori language, a strong woman] who is not only awesome on the field but is an awesome speaker of te reo M\u0101ori. Kia kaha r\u0101 ki a t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EReflecting on the work that t\u0113nei ankara \u014Dku, a T\u0101 Derek Lardelli, n\u0101na i haut\u016B i te taha ki ng\u0101 tikanga M\u0101ori hei t\u0101wharau m\u014D te katoa i haere i roto i te w\u0101hi i noho ai ng\u0101 hau tipua ki Pou Tangata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[Reflecting on the work that this uncle of mine, Sir Derek Lardelli, who led all things to do with tikanga M\u0101ori as a safe haven for everyone who went into the place where the athletes stayed, Pou Tangata.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ESo I acknowledge also the mahi of Sir Derek Lardelli in his efforts to sustain and uphold a solid cultural platform for our athletes as they travelled across the world. And whilst we invest a lot of money into achieving great things in sporting success, it\u2019s often the 1 percent that gets you across the line in first place. And the way you feel\u2014so, the values, the passion, and, of course, the culture that they went with. Kia kaha r\u0101 ki a r\u0101tou, ki a t\u0101tou an\u014D hoki. [May they be strong, may we too.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ELastly, I\u2019d like to pay tribute to the Minister Chris Bishop, who in his interview with Te Karere from Pou Tangata was very\u2014you know, he sent the mihi to the world and acknowledged the importance of te ao M\u0101ori, te iwi M\u0101ori, and the M\u0101ori culture to the performance of our athletes on the international stage; I thought that was marvellous by our friend over there. Lastly, ki \u014D t\u0101tou whanaunga i roto i te whai kaha, me \u014D r\u0101tou Taum\u0101hekeheke o te Ao e haere tonu mai ana, kia kaha, kia m\u0101ia, kia manawa nui. Tihei mauri ora ki a t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[Lastly, to our relations within the disabled community, and their Olympics that are still to come, be strong, be bold, resolute.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002261fbf8460b1943fcb00dd8c7ed52c211\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261fbf8460b1943fcb00dd8c7ed52c211\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019ve already voted on the motion, but since we are in a general agreement that the Olympic team have done so well and should be congratulated, I\u2019ll ask everyone to stand and give them a round of applause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E[Applause]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cd3e0fd2538480da40839ef09508247\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022108d68dc4c724dec90dab107b5d812e8\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5b6769fe0844448846cd0ae11fff0cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5b6769fe0844448846cd0ae11fff0cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s nothing like goodwill\u2014we\u2019ll see how long it lasts. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002248cbfa30006c4dc8a3f4ff97bc0e0d11\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022509e0bf618b74849a73c6ae6320bb5b6\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002243ad2d25ef6d48b085512e74a41cf287\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8b669704d584ca7a9423a5428c4bca4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8b669704d584ca7a9423a5428c4bca4\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8cae29bb57344da9716a04159b495ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8cae29bb57344da9716a04159b495ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially this Government\u2019s action to improve road safety by going after drugged and drunk drivers. Our Government is absolutely committed to building great roads and Kiwis deserve to be safe when they drive on them, and alcohol and drugs are the number one cause of fatal crashes on New Zealand roads; in fact, around 30 percent of deaths on our roads involve drug-drivers. So our Government is taking action, with more funding for roadside tests as part of a package of $1.3 billion for road policing in the next three years. But we know funding isn\u2019t enough, which is why we\u2019re setting targets for alcohol and drug tests so we see better results for where the money is spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcbcad71464c48e08166824322e54bcc\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CPart of the history of modern New Zealand has been our struggle to understand the intentions and expectations of those who signed the Treaty. \u2026 That work is still happening and will keep going.\u201D, and, if so, can he set out his understanding of Te Tiriti o Waitangi by telling the House whether he believes that M\u0101ori ceded sovereignty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b4effba907f400bafb5789b333304ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277a4e8ed28943bb804262c931c62a80\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister believe that M\u0101ori ceded sovereignty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219b75469ee624eaeb1e5e38aef77e63b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Our position is that the Crown is sovereign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ee18a6e5a6e4d009517bdbf62357a71\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a fact that 102 years ago, in a major thesis, Sir \u0100pirana Ngata set out the very circumstances of the Treaty and he said that M\u0101ori ceded sovereignty\u2014far closer to the action as he was, as were other M\u0101ori leaders of that time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b9b21bae974092a1f431bb39d5041d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve said, our position is that the Crown is sovereign, and also\u2014importantly\u2014the Treaty of Waitangi has protections in there for both Crown and M\u0101ori interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db7cbfa905b54559adad604467719a3d\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Are we to take it from that answer that the Prime Minister believes that M\u0101ori ceded sovereignty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2d1be33aded439d8553c032a0d468a1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know how I can be clearer in answer to the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a144cf326c84a178d64d5a30f81adf4\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: When did M\u0101ori cede sovereignty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b99039bdb7124dfe816300ff16f97f83\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just say to the member that we have the Treaty of Waitangi as the founding document of New Zealand; in there is protection for both Crown and M\u0101ori interests. But, as I\u2019ve said to you, the position is very clear: M\u0101ori ceded sovereignty to the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022558bac3d1a4b4e0f81b76f06b236bf2f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does his Government\u2019s Treaty principles bill consider the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s finding from 10 years ago that \u201CThe rangatira who signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi in February 1840 did not cede [their] sovereignty to Britain,\u201D or does he intend to continue to sideline the Waitangi Tribunal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254cfa1b8ec7f455e8659646418425f1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We haven\u2019t seen a Treaty principles bill yet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002269063190f2cd44969d7daa721e08a33f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00223bfb9ee1ec1441de90a5484062e2b79f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bfb9ee1ec1441de90a5484062e2b79f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022b72b3968ddce46f2a4e744185c0175d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b72b3968ddce46f2a4e744185c0175d8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our action to rein in inflation and to reduce the cost of living as part of our plan to rebuild the economy. We had a plan to fight inflation and we started work on day one: stopping the wasteful spending, removing costs on businesses, and returning the Reserve Bank to a single focus on inflation. Now, we see inflation is tracking down to 3.3 percent and heading lower, and last week brought more good news for every Kiwi with a mortgage, with the first cut to the official cash rate in 4\u00BD years. We know life is tough out there, but there are encouraging early signs that our plan is working to get New Zealand back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a96bfaa12b543e7b5a09bcf3df98d67\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility does he take for the fact that since he became Prime Minister, the monthly number of new building consents has dropped 26\u00A0percent, 6,000 jobs have gone from the building and construction sector, and 57 percent of construction businesses now report difficulties with Government procurement and work consent conditions, up from 36 percent last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9f3322b90ba451fb690c4ca71eb76d1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is a function of bad economic mismanagement and vandalism from the previous administration that created something called inflation, and inflation works because if you have an 84 percent increase in spending\u2014wasteful spending, much of it\u2014you increase debt from $5 billion to $100\u00A0billion, and you hire 18,000 more public servants, you get high levels of domestic inflation. That then leads to high levels of interest rates. When interest rates go up, that leads to recession, which is what we\u2019ve been experiencing\u2014thank you to the previous Labour Government!\u2014and, in turn, that leads to rising unemployment. That\u2019s why this Government is working incredibly hard on the root causes of the problem, which is actually getting inflation down so we can get interest rates down, and so we get the economy growing and we keep people in work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bed5ca68be74f41badd844e70a5a5de\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, is the Civil Contractors association\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f515ccc1928474b8140f577990c511d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on, just\u2014sorry. Please don\u2019t talk while someone is asking a question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a1ab6c5a5d418b80074b1b6e9f148b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is Civil Contractors New Zealand CEO Alan Pollard wrong when he said, \u201CWe have this strange situation where there\u2019s a mountain of infrastructure work that the country needs, and it\u2019s coming\u201D\u2014but then goes on to say\u2014\u201Cbut since the election, everything has stopped, effectively.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7873d14493349d1a56591e263a8fdfa\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What is happening is there\u2019s no doubt that is a sector experiencing the impacts of inflation, which is a gift from the previous administration. But, importantly, this is a Government that wants to get things built, and I really appreciate the member\u2019s interest in the area of infrastructure and I\u2019d ask him to come on board and support our fast-track legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb0f9b6d78c5478e888fe295c923e895\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the latest Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors\u2019 global monitor survey report that New Zealand\u2019s construction sector is now the most depressed since that survey started and is the most depressed in the world, with more than half of respondents citing as a reason the change in Government in October 2023, which resulted in cuts, delays, and policy change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aad305e98a94b6db8cd2e72753f2516\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, my goodness\u2014oh, my goodness. I just don\u2019t know where to start\u2014what a gift. What I\u2019d just say to that member is\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d29b07d02e6a474e8b546ae2bf4b0a6e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, just\u2014hold on. You can\u2019t ask a question, from your leader, and then just barrack like crazy so you don\u2019t get the answer. Please. Perhaps we\u2019ll ask the question again, and then we\u2019ll have the answer reasonably presented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237e99439c0be4107b76525a5269ee628\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Very happy to, Mr Speaker. Why does the latest Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors\u2019 global monitor survey report that New Zealand\u2019s construction sector is now the most depressed since the survey started and is the most depressed in the world, with more than half of respondents citing as the major reason the change in Government in October 2023, which resulted in cuts, delays, and policy change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022337ed4bb1d954e4b9d34e4240d185a23\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: The reason that that sector is feeling it pretty tough is because of something called inflation, high interest rates, and recession, which was a gift from the previous administration. We have a Government here that wants to invest in infrastructure, and make sure it\u2019s modern and reliable infrastructure that drives economic productivity in this country. We\u2019ve taken the genius idea from David Parker about fast-track provisions; we\u2019re putting it in and expanding it further. I\u2019d ask him to come on board and support the rule, if he\u2019s serious about building infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e8d48f4b7f9443ebc88e2940605fed8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e85e6cd7edfd43d5a766236ec1cfdd32\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, could I just make the point that all the barracking and interjection doesn\u2019t make an answer turn into the answer that someone might be wanting to hear. By all means, carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef5554ac98634e2393e02ed98a869cc1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the total value in dollar terms of the infrastructure projects that have been cancelled or delayed since his Government took office, including school rebuilds and expansions, roading projects, rail upgrades, hospital rebuilds, State house upgrades and new builds, and public transport projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e03ae2366a86469e9cb816613baafe03\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m sure if the member gives a specific question, we can get him a specific answer, but what I would say is that there is $68 billion in this year\u2019s Budget for infrastructure. I would also point to the member that having projects with names doesn\u2019t mean they are actually projects, so spending six years on Auckland light rail and spending $250 million to $300\u00A0million doesn\u2019t make it happen; it\u2019s just a Post-it note slogan bumper sticker\u2014that\u2019s what that is. The same thing happened on Lake Onslow\u2014just another bumper sticker. There\u2019s a difference between real projects that improve productivity and phantom projects that just actually are Post-it notes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da194e8f329340fb9e79f60524be0b05\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just make the point that while barracking against an answer that you don\u2019t like doesn\u2019t make it change, nor does barracking in favour of an answer you like make it any better\u2014so just a bit of calm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022274ca2defda14de1869b6139a8c484e0\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister eventually leaves office, does he anticipate spending his first year out combing the world for statistics to show how badly he buggered the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284411cc8155d4c57937c1a98d69edb0e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d just say to the member, on this side, in the Government, as he well knows, he\u2019s part of, actually, a Government that wants to get things done. We think there are five things that we need to grow this country: a world-class education system\u2014we didn\u2019t inherit that from the previous Government\u2014we\u2019ve got to embrace science, technology, and innovation; we need to get rid of the red tape, green tape, and bureaucracy; we need to make sure we\u2019ve got modern, reliable infrastructure; and, importantly, international connections. That\u2019s what will drive economic growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220851ac4dc5274278a6650d5853738325\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It may surprise the member to know that the Prime Minister has no responsibility to this House for his future. Good question; well answered, but we\u2019ll go now to the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236eb876f103a47a8a0fa9322cecb6b6a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he take responsibility for the construction sector business confidence collapsing under his Government\u2019s watch, from one in three businesses having a confident outlook to only one in five now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224525025159564232aad81b719563799b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019d take responsibility for is rebuilding the economy from the hell of a mess that we inherited, and you\u2019re starting to see that. We have stopped the wasteful spending, we\u2019ve stopped loading costs up on businesses, and we\u2019re getting spending under control. That\u2019s driving inflation down, thankfully\u2014and I would hope the member is joining us in great celebration with the lower interest rates that came through last week\u2014and from that will flow economic growth and, ultimately, more employment opportunities for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022455075054e0b44b1ba04998347219941\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think the 6,000 people who\u2019ve lost their jobs in the building and construction sector and the firms who are closing because they have a shortage of work because of his Government\u2019s decisions think that this is what getting back on track looks like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a442b71489304c87873abb6f3a19c22a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think those 6,000 workers understand that a Government that had six years, mucked around, and actually drove the economy into a hole is a reason why they\u2019re doing it pretty tough. But they know that on this side, the Government wants to actually make sure we build infrastructure and we get things done, and that\u2019s going to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221703fdcd651944efbbf10bf541544eb2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has he got any plans to assign $54 million, for example, for a cycleway over the Auckland Harbour Bridge, and when it\u2019s all over, nothing is done with it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9f6fe23718148deb7eda652afbbe63d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: There were a lot of phantom projects from the previous Government; we can go through them if you\u2019d like. There was the cycle pathway over the Auckland Harbour Bridge. That was a lovely idea for about a week and a half or\u00A0so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022949b1a8a26e1491fac4f140665f024dd\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s the general approach, as you\u2019ve suggested, to try and leave you to deal with that, but that immediate response from the Prime Minister was to have a crack at the previous Government, and it should have been ruled out right then. The question wasn\u2019t about that, but the Prime Minister made the answer about that, and it was out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a03ac6e42440ab93d3f427d1fdcd1f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that might be something that I\u2019ll need to look at the Hansard to reconsider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4f4df2191b14e6a84cae51f591ae608\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a361ae81a4dc4f92925969501fc3be99\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ee1d47b161745e990a771087af5a1fe\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022e105ecf4cdc8464cbb8c14402c58ae96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e105ecf4cdc8464cbb8c14402c58ae96\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00228e03e5446d1d41b4b3d8840acf85747a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e03e5446d1d41b4b3d8840acf85747a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Over the past few years, New Zealand has endured a cost of living crisis, with rampant inflation eating away at New Zealanders\u2019 incomes and savings. In response, interest rates were lifted very sharply, imposing additional costs on Kiwi households and businesses. I was delighted to see that last week marked a significant turning point, with the Reserve Bank\u2019s monetary policy committee deciding to cut the official cash rate (OCR) by 25 basis points, to 5.25 percent. What\u2019s more, the bank has set out a forecast track for the official cash rate which shows a steady decline over the next few years, back down to 3 percent in 2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b513e5d8b40e49ab941f339384a8ceec\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What does an OCR cut mean for New Zealand families and businesses? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256009aaf6eca4b6f9b77f78b045b627f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Lowering the official cash rate will lead to lower interest rates across the economy; in fact, this process has already started. It means Kiwis will pay less interest on their mortgages and on their personal loans, easing the cost of living for families. It also improves the conditions for businesses, making it easier for them to borrow to expand, hire people, and grow. Lower interest rates will be a breath of fresh air for the economy. Coupled with the tax relief package we introduced on 31 July, this is an important milestone in beating the cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f268a3cf6994740ba4d6c98cedc30b5\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Reserve Bank\u2019s forecast for inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eeae8f22638487191371281bc4d4ccb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: During the cost of living crisis, annual Consumers Price Index inflation got to 7.3 percent and was over 7 percent for most of 2022. The Reserve Bank\u2019s latest forecast is for inflation in this quarter\u2014that is, the September quarter of 2024\u2014to be well within the target band, at 2.3 percent. That is a very considerable drop. The Reserve Bank clearly has confidence that inflation is under control and that the age\u00A0of\u00A0extreme price increases is over, after four years where the only way for interest rates was up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e390130a02f9469e9079f3116a5d46a0\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the contribution of fiscal policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d98982f07b58425bae30c586db776968\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Fiscal policy can either get in the way of monetary policy, as we saw with big spending over the last few years, or it can be helpful. This Government has been helpful, as the Budget demonstrates. New Zealanders benefited from long-overdue tax relief, and this tax relief was delivered in a way that was fiscally neutral and did not add to inflationary pressure, with every single dollar accounted for. More importantly, Government spending as a proportion of the economy is forecast to fall over the next few years, as the Monetary Policy Statement shows. As the Treasury said in the Budget update, \u201CThe decisions taken through Budget 2024 will on balance reduce the contribution fiscal policy is making to inflation pressure.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022791f00ce22f74186931b7e2804c50053\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a211fd0e06994010886b325a99192152\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a211fd0e06994010886b325a99192152\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: M\u0101l\u014D \u2018aupito, Mr Speaker. Does she stand by her statement, \u201CWe\u2019ve acted swiftly to root-out waste, reduce bureaucracy and move resources from the back-office to the front line\u201D; if so, is she confident New Zealanders have gained more from the tax cuts than they lost from the Budget 2024 baseline savings exercise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022075571b2689f44d1aca25408efe5c2b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022075571b2689f44d1aca25408efe5c2b8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221df6d0bb121645c1ae8f28ba7c5e7d15\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why has Oranga Tamariki ended contracts with 190 front-line social service providers and a further 142 providers have had their funding reduced, or are these contracts wasteful spending, as described by the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd97656ac79c4003abe1e10b2b7ab516\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member wants detailed answers on specific contract decisions by Oranga Tamariki, I would encourage her to put those questions to the relevant Minister. I will make two points: first, overall funding for Oranga Tamariki in the Budget increased; and, second, if that member thinks that the position of a Government should be that every single contract signed up to needs to be stuck in stone and never changed, then she\u2019s delusional. In fact, what our Government has committed to do is drive better services. We want New Zealand children to be safe, we want there to be good and effective service delivery, and Oranga Tamariki is expected to deliver on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242bf2af60521402fb2cb5f8e6e409148\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is it reasonable, as part of her Budget 2024 baseline savings exercise, for front-line social service providers to provide 100 percent of their contracted Government services with only 70 percent of the Government funding, and is this consistent with the social services commissioning model?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9045654e9524426b3ac4ed76b4803b7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Our expectation is that we will drive better results for the taxpayers\u2019 money we invest in social service provision. We are particularly conscious that in recent years, social service providers have watched while Wellington grew, the dollars that went into Government agencies expanded, and the number of policy analysts and managers hired grew, and yet those front-line service providers often only saw in return more contracting requirements, more compliance, and, actually, weren\u2019t able to deliver better results. Our Government is focused on ensuring the dollars actually make it to the front line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222049db64f6524c27ba71baa4c3b17fbb\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to providers like Taeaomanino Trust, Wesley Community Action, Porirua Wh\u0101nau Centre, Barnardos Aotearoa, Wairere Care Services, North Shore Women\u2019s Centre, WELLfed New Zealand Trust, E Tipu E Rea, and the Salvation Army, who have all had reductions in funding and lost front-line staff as a result of her Budget 2024 baseline savings exercise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d92efa95c454df793514387002a09f1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d say to each of those social service providers that the Government values what you do. You play a significant role in helping New Zealanders in need, and our Government wants to work with you to ensure we can make the maximum impact for the people you serve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228160c6c515f24e2f8d4c102b0d6e0f8e\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Was making funding cuts for Oranga Tamariki providers, who serve our most vulnerable children, worth it to pay for her tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229866a2355a114866a1deec54854d12ef\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I completely reject the accusation in the member\u2019s question. We invested every single dollar gained from savings at Oranga Tamariki back into Oranga Tamariki, which, overall, had increased funding in the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b6b84e2fc8741fbad835de8618a323b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022322be74807f8444f9f486c2c053492a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022322be74807f8444f9f486c2c053492a1\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the banking sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4dc72d100bc4fcf829bcfc6ef81e949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4dc72d100bc4fcf829bcfc6ef81e949\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Today, the Commerce Commission released its final competition report into personal banking services. The report provides substantial evidence that New Zealand\u2019s banking sector is uncompetitive and that Kiwis are not well served by a two-tier oligopoly. The report makes it clear that our banks are highly profitable compared with international peers, they lack innovation, and do not aggressively compete for market share. Instead, competition resembles a cozy pillow fight, with greater focus given to maintaining profit margins than serving New Zealanders well. We are concerned that New Zealand customers are missing out and that as a result of this imperfect competition, they are facing higher prices, limited choices, and poorer service, even when compared to customers of the same parent banks in Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3aa936eb6246008a3b66f1c2c32e0e\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What recommendations did the Commerce Commission make?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796d9d497ffa47eb8a8776af9cb15071\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The commission has made 14 recommendations aimed at encouraging more disruptive players into the market, increasing the level of competition between existing players, and empowering consumers to get a better deal from their banking services. In the short term, the commission found that providing Kiwibank with access to more capital has the greatest potential to disrupt and deliver more competitive services to New Zealanders. In the medium to long term, the commission finds that open banking has the greatest potential to promote ongoing disruptive competition by allowing innovative new players such as fintech firms to enter the market and offer banking services to Kiwi consumers that compete with the traditional banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299965ea5830d4d8db3cf33ad63b982a6\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What recommendations does the report make about Kiwibank?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ebd173fc1304fab9ac314e1bb32a834\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, one of the key recommendations is for the Government to support Kiwibank to become a real competitor to the major banks. At the moment, Kiwibank is only just nipping at the heels of the big Australian-owned banks, with just 5 percent of the market. To compete more aggressively with the Aussie banks, Kiwibank needs significantly more capital. I have asked the Treasury to engage with Kiwibank\u2019s owner, Kiwi Group Capital, to understand the best options for providing Kiwibank with the capital it needs. The Government will explore all the options for where that additional capital might come from. Possibilities include KiwiSaver funds, New Zealand investment funds, and everyday New Zealanders themselves looking for home-grown places in which to put their money and invest in New Zealand\u2019s future. I will take proposals to Cabinet no later than December this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3c888d5b4cd4f1689ab28559d083517\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What other actions is the Government taking in response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229739d326e8304584b2cdc48abe9f1f60\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: A number of the Commerce Commission\u2019s recommendations relate to existing work that is already being progressed by this Government. For example, the Government, led by Minister Bayly, is progressing work to create a consumer data right\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fafd719e7bc42ddb56b5b80c44f0131\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, great bill\u2014we did that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232f4b597dd4d4db3b8351f05603b798b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to give customers greater control over how their data is accessed and used. While those members chuff themselves, I remember they talked a lot about open banking; they didn\u2019t deliver it. For sectors like banking, this change will make it easier for consumers to switch providers or for innovative and disruptive new players like fintechs to enter the market and compete. The Government has already scrapped the overly prescriptive Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Regulations and we\u2019ve updated the Responsible Lending Code to ensure loan application processes are fair and flexible. Later this year, I will issue a revised financial policy remit for the Reserve Bank outlining the Government\u2019s view that improving competition in the banking sector should be a stronger factor in the Reserve Bank\u2019s decision making. This is in line with the Commerce Commission\u2019s recommendation. This Government is committed to delivering a more competitive banking sector so New Zealanders can get a better deal. That\u2019s why we are taking action to address all 14 of the commission\u2019s recommendations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229285e911ac51425ebe2af1cd5f475f28\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f978cbdedf8d4e019e093ca192a8cca6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f978cbdedf8d4e019e093ca192a8cca6\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Has she read the analysis in the Welfare Expert Advisory Group\u2019s 2019 report that \u201CThere is little evidence in support of using obligations and sanctions (as in the current system) to change behaviour; rather, there is research indicating that they compound social harm and disconnectedness\u201D; if so, what specific evidence, if any, has she seen that benefit sanctions support people into employment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022428dadd721e149cfa0484fabf3f93c4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022428dadd721e149cfa0484fabf3f93c4b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I did read that in 2019, and I\u2019ve also looked into the empirical evidence in New Zealand between 2017 and 2023. During this time, the number of people on the jobseeker benefit increased by 70,000, or 57 percent, which included periods of prolonged labour shortages. During the same time, the use of sanctions nosedived from 60,588 to 25,329, or a decrease of 58 percent. Our Government believes this demonstrates that sanctions are a necessary part of the tools needed, including more proactive support, to motivate people to take the steps needed to shift into work. Sanctions are also about enforcing the basic responsibility to fulfil obligations if you are being supported by taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5f9a6fde69d4d159ca3290233ebf1be\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she choosing to ignore the research that shows sanctions do not support people into employment and, instead, conflating correlation with causation when it comes to the so-called empirical evidence she quoted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e787655543f54848bb6a8c0bf0671528\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: This side of the House is clear that there must be mutual obligations, rights, and responsibilities. Just as the Ministry of Social Development will provide support and assistance, job seekers who fail to hold up their end of the bargain should face some consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293a02940905743db94cbe2ba4017f40e\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is it easier or harder for someone to find suitable employment when they have lost half of their benefit and fall behind on rent, food, debts, and bills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228831ce2a7ea74277ac1c2a6c31b3a0d4\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why we\u2019ve introduced a traffic light system. We want people to be really clear about where they are, whether they\u2019re at green, orange, or red, so they don\u2019t lose any entitlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa2d9eb6f7448b393be1bbb30691de0\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: What recent commentary has the Minister seen on the use of benefit sanctions to change behaviour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022056b2e6d73c24269a4de0979973389a7\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I did agree with the comments made on Newstalk ZB in Wellington on 15 August, that were \u201CWhen it comes to sanctions, I\u2019ll tell you what, especially for the younger ones, particularly the [under 20s and for] teenagers hitting the workforce, I think those sanctions straight out of school \u2026 are a good idea.\u201D I would like to thank Labour MP Greg O\u2019Connor for his endorsement and for confirming that common sense hasn\u2019t been completely extinguished from the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d51e81bde93546a8afcbb4dd50542bbe\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Why has she been unable to\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d560c4ed5a984273a2ff8206a6d927cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014no, hold on. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d211eea33f4778b96dcf54d0d30e09\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Why has she been unable to substantiate and produce evidence that sanctions support people into employment, and instead continues referring to contributions on talkback radio and conflating correlation with causation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00d14d767a0493a921d65b933c66c27\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s really simple, and that\u2019s why I was pleased to support another colleague\u2019s common-sense approach to this. This side of the House believes that there should be rights and responsibilities, obligations\u2014and those obligations are pretty simple work obligations to be available for work and to look for work\u2014and consequences when they don\u2019t. I would add that we have seen in July an increase in the number of work exits from a year ago, so I\u2019m confident that what we\u2019re doing is working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201c40f76c7044e83a1bf4890247f7765\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her answers to supplementary questions last sitting week when she said that caregiving is work, and, if so, will she guarantee that caregivers will not be subject to work obligations and sanctions under the traffic light system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022249d8800df264158aaab1b7a6385a518\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: There will be work obligations for those on the jobseeker benefit. There may be some conditions or capacity that is assessed for those with health conditions and disabilities. But where there are work obligations, our expectation is that they are fulfilled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a2d9fe78edd403eadd78761ffff6a28\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Disability Issues\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00227d5f32af5d3e4662828c194909fa257e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d5f32af5d3e4662828c194909fa257e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour\u2014Kelston)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Disability Issues: M\u0101l\u014D e lelei, Mr Speaker. Does she stand by all her statements made during the Disability Issues Estimates hearing at the Social Services and Community Committee on 19 June 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9af421c6a044cea826809575338eab2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9af421c6a044cea826809575338eab2\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, but since then the independent review has found that the disability support system was in a much worse state than we first understood. Access to disability support services is a postcode lottery based on where someone lives, not their level of need, and Whaikaha - Ministry of Disabled People lacks the capabilities necessary to deliver disability support services effectively, partly due to their rushed establishment under the last Government. The independent review recommended that the initially planned phase two not proceed, as stabilising the disability support system was urgent. That\u2019s why last week our Government announced a series of measures to ensure that the increased budget of $2.6 billion is distributed in a fairer, more consistent way, based on need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a721923e47254540a7d6690c7d6b6f66\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by her statement that \u201COur Government remains committed to the Enabling Good Lives approach\u201D, and, if so, how does she reconcile this with her decision to pause Enabling Good Lives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bc6b2dd63064b5cbea88b58d27c4b31\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Our Government of course is committed to the vision and principles of Enabling Good Lives, particularly the principle that talks about mainstream first and ensuring that disabled people are supported to access mainstream services before specialist disability services. The independent review highlighted dire issues with a disability support service that required urgent action. Our Government is taking that urgent action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ad6cbb4a6194f9aa82e13956f77d492\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by her statement that \u201CThe most critical thing we do is for people who are already accessing and in need of disability support services, that we stabilise the system and give them certainty\u201D; if so, how can she justify uprooting and transferring disability support services from Whaikaha to the Ministry of Social Development, a process for which the cost and time frame is unknown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022294b521ff8424d158952bf9187361dec\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The report that came from the independent review panel, unfortunately, was bleak. That was on top of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet stocktake that was undertaken for the previous Government and released before the election, as well as an independent assurance report that also showed poor financial controls. That is why, in order to stabilise and ensure services that are delivered to disabled people are stabilised, we\u2019ve taken urgent action. That is why we are prioritising disabled people, their families, and carers by making these changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261bf604a0c27434aa40b012a034d05a6\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by her statement that the review into disability support services engaged \u201Cwith a number of organisations and groups and individuals\u2014disabled and non-disabled.\u201D; if so, how does she reconcile this with the comments made by New Zealand Disability Support Network chief executive, Peter Reynolds, who said, \u201CThe Government\u2019s bombshell decision to cut disability support funding in real terms, while gutting the Ministry designed by and for disabled people without even deigning to talk with the people affected first is heart-breaking\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb4f8a9f7d943a09332ce9340d9ed87\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The state of the books and the rapid decline of the ministry\u2019s ability to maintain within its appropriation meant that changes were required. That\u2019s why an independent review panel was set up at pace. And over that time that the independent review panel was doing its work, I met with disabled people, with families, with carers, with organisations, with the Disabled People\u2019s Organisations Coalition, with providers\u2014including the organisation that that member referred to\u2014to understand exactly how they saw the disability support service and what their experience was. It\u2019s fair to say it was bleak; that\u2019s why urgent action has been taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022129f7ae5ac164b8e8d85c6c5a9f3308a\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: How can the disabled community trust a Minister who said her Government was committed to Enabling Good Lives, then paused it; said they would stabilise disability support services, then uprooted it; and said they would engage with the disabled community when she didn\u2019t?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f585ada8352f44ba8b1cc030969729f8\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to reconfirm what this review was about and the actions that were taken. Over many, many weeks and the discussions with disabled people, families, carers, and providers, it is very clear. It is very clear that the system we have today is unfair, it is inconsistent, and it is a postcode lottery that delivers to disabled people depending on where they live. That is not sustainable, and that is why, with an increased budget of $1.1 billion, we want to ensure that those with the highest needs get their needs met.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022898a441e2627480588597a421f0863a6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022caf76719315a4a60b54dae95616d5223\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022caf76719315a4a60b54dae95616d5223\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002208d16c55751a48149b6649fd3d3774dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208d16c55751a48149b6649fd3d3774dc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ea8c0e6bc594d66bc058d9dc91392b6\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the mounting evidence that his Government\u2019s policies and actions are worsening race relations in Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f352987eb891447db87aa3f91e784b7f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eca6411a17f040dbb80f13629a70fed5\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that his Government\u2019s actions and policies are changing the constitution of this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222808358f9844453bd4ba529514595d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022408f88cd10d447aaa78e4d4848a1ab7a\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does our constitution allow for three Prime Ministers at the same time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a56fe4e857774c17a02a32560d2a6e6e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227ba3352ea364c62a97c411e818965ec\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does Parliament\u2019s constitution grant supremacy to a coalition agreement over Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228361f6c8082e45f8a62963ae9713ca06\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We have a very clear coalition agreement. We honour our coalition agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1d872320da14dc3ac63907a7d3ad99e\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister describe the distribution of constitutional power created by the agreement of te iwi M\u0101ori to Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299c0ffe4f9ff46089ef2717f89257351\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said before, the Treaty of Waitangi is a foundational document of New Zealand. It protects both Crown and M\u0101ori interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226381e85fa497400589b097a1a6e9e92e\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister given total control of his Government to ACT and New Zealand First, or is he using the coalition agreement as an excuse to pursue his own anti-M\u0101ori agenda?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022152ab083d2a345549e952657f261d74f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019m really proud of this coalition Government because we are united on the things that New Zealanders\u2014M\u0101ori or non-M\u0101ori\u2014care about, and I would just say to that member that I hope she cares as deeply about M\u0101ori achievement and education, M\u0101ori health outcomes, M\u0101ori housing outcomes, M\u0101ori economic outcomes. Those are the things that this Government is fixated on fixing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222edd57fd061c4cd58d9474936d8a677f\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister be pleased to learn that amongst the 78\u00A0initial applicants to run kura hourua charter schools are a large contingent of kura kaupapa M\u0101ori operators, and that there is going to be an iwi leaders appointee on the authorisation board that chooses those schools, because the iwi leaders group has written to me strongly supporting charter schools kura hourua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f587691524543f5b8891faac31b4f43\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to say thank you to that member for bringing charter schools together in such a comprehensive way. It\u2019s going to be a fantastic feature of the education system of New Zealand, and I also have heard from iwi leaders saying how much they appreciate the charter schools initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b98d32d211c4ec28f4fe21b55aec0b9\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Which recommendations, if any, will he adopt from the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s report on his Government\u2019s Treaty principles bill and Treaty clause review policies, which included abandoning the Treaty principles bill policy before it\u2019s introduced into the House, as well as working with M\u0101ori to reverse the damage his Government\u2019s actions have caused to M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cd5cfd541a34be3a7215c9d4f81c283\u0022\u003E Rt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I will continue to engage with the Waitangi Tribunal in good faith, but there is no Treaty principles bill that is before this House at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f229be72b9f46c1964947cbecfcfe95\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022f70f16c456054e9b966c48b8545cdc1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f70f16c456054e9b966c48b8545cdc1f\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: How many Oranga Tamariki community service providers, if any, have had their funding increased, and by how much, if anything, as a result of the Budget 2024 Reduction in Contracting Service Costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022628344c9456e4fa68d7a3cb50a96fdd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022628344c9456e4fa68d7a3cb50a96fdd0\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m advised that 34 services across 25 providers will have their funding increased, with a total increase of at least $18.7 million. On top of that, Oranga Tamariki (OT) will be procuring at least 50 new services, and this will include additional services for high and complex needs, and the expansion of the Fast Track programme by $7.6 million. I\u2019ve asked OT to make sure that there\u2019s a more rigorous approach to contracting to ensure the $500\u00A0million worth of services it funds each year gets to where it will have the greatest impact. Under the last Government, OT was allowing providers who were under-delivering on their contracts to keep unused funding, they were funding services that weren\u2019t core business, and they were duplicating services in various parts of New Zealand. If the last Government had taken this same approach to contracting now, at least $132 million more could have gone to the children, rather than letting some bank accounts build up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281a9ce85f97b4cea9fae5f47fe072acd\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor and the Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner have written to Oranga Tamariki stating that they had continued concerns on a range of aspects of the current change process, given its potential detrimental impact for tamariki and wh\u0101nau, and, if so, what is she doing to reassure them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6a950928575439daca3935b9da54592\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: It is the same amount of funding\u2014no cuts have been made to funding. What we are doing is reprioritising that funding to where it will make the biggest impact. Oranga Tamariki needs to go back to its core purpose. We can\u2019t keep the status quo, and those organisations you\u2019re speaking to have said that over and over, over the years, Oranga Tamariki is not performing and needs to get back to what they should be doing: looking after our children\u2019s safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220830d38d8f4a4b03a92cbd4d33232d8f\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was about whether she could confirm that the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor and the Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner have written to Oranga Tamariki about their concerns with the process and detrimental impacts on children, and, if so, what is she doing to reassure them\u2014the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor and the Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner. She didn\u2019t answer that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a9e953d7db944aca874a75907a668d6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would have thought that the answer was her reassurance, quite bluntly, because you\u2019d stated Government policy and stated that there were no funding cuts. Do you have another question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c58f321b9c348f8ac716f6e59194d7c\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. Can she provide an assurance that any funding changes to community service providers are, in fact, like for like and that there will be no gaps in service provision for all communities across the country, and, if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232d8f5c30d5e4a63817910b23135166e\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody has ever said it would be like-to-like services; what we\u2019ve said is we are going to realign the money where it\u2019s going to make the greatest impact and where it is focusing on the core purpose of Oranga Tamariki, which is the care and protection of children in their care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea105365b752499da5851531d35e534d\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Does she share the concerns of the Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner and Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, who have said, \u201COranga Tamariki could not guarantee that transitional arrangements were in place, but hoped they would be\u201D, and, if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223110465ce2b04b85917d9564a7e2dbb6\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I have been advised that for services that will be discontinued, provisions have been made to support partners and providers to wind down the services and to safely transition tamariki, rangatahi, and wh\u0101nau receiving the services to another service. These provisions also allow for either a three-month or a six-month wind-down, depending on the terms of their contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daba6f89d8a74d1b9350fbc93d6a0590\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: How do shambolic cuts to service providers, poor communication with providers about their contracts, and having no assurance about transitioning children and family to alternative services fit with her stated commitment that child safety is her priority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcdbee5b1243422fb359a39166ba37b0\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I actually refuse to stand here and be lectured by a member of that previous Government, which made absolutely no progress when it came to the safety of the wellbeing of our young people. The state of Oranga Tamariki when I took over was absolutely disgusting, and I\u2019m not going to allow that to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282cef95fe9ad4734882835dba93df865\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why 10 percent of the rangatahi who are now involved in her new boot camp initiative left the programme, and can she guarantee us that the other 90 percent won\u2019t?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c5e0aea08bd40958aeacfbd36a67741\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, the Minister may choose to answer, but that\u2019s very broad of the wickets on the primary question. But the Minister might want to make a comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ab3dcea14054a3c813a9a9ea1699702\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I have been assured that that young person has been supported to complete their sentence at another youth justice residence. I\u2019ve also been advised that there is one other young person who will be joining the programme, so now there will be 10 young people within that programme, and all of them are doing well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6901ae5db2e4b4386c7ee646ab1e2e0\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister please explain why there are 790 M\u0101ori tamariki who have entered Oranga Tamariki in the last eight months\u2014a record amount of tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022600e8c43894f477c850de687143f386b\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Ask the wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dea187e49594cd4bb07a3255faeb74a\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m asking the Minister\u2014it\u2019s her role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213a898d63058454f9fa50d0cdacf95ee\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Ask your cousins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270186d8a413543febd66463c8961cd1b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f734ce3b112446508f20e0a86241f7b3\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022312472e465d94a348c7a854422f8709a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on. That was a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257a56fc310db45cea47deaa116b11fcc\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Can you ask that question again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6c5eeb8a84d4198af02a3a343be2ace\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, ask it again. Debbie Ngarewa-Packer, could you just ask that question again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5b5ea1908744d6ca3e85233ee014933\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister please explain why a record of 790 M\u0101ori tamariki have entered Oranga Tamariki in the last\u2014past eight months? Sorry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6fde8e06de8435c9b18ebd0437bc2bc\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: That would be a question for Oranga Tamariki in writing, so they could give you a specific answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c654f0342c324b0bbe11c515189aa6f4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 10\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c1c0529d9749f1ae238b64ce207d79\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I take offence to the Deputy Prime Minister, who referred that we should go and ask our cousins when we asked the Minister this really important question. There is a record amount of M\u0101ori tamariki going into State care\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0c95d5a83d441d8c0d661250208321\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, good. You\u2019ve made the point, and what I would make the point is that the member herself was very, very, I suppose you\u2019d say, dancing around a pin the week before last, making what some could consider to be very offensive remarks. So I\u2019d suggest we just desensitise a little bit and move on. Question No. 10\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221db8c22a2a1948abbb9eba0a72eecdb0\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I have no issues with personally being attacked. But I don\u2019t have any cousins who have children in Oranga Tamariki, and if I do, prove that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f829a933837a46639a2255e9ed7635d1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker, the reality is those of us who are M\u0101ori know that before we\u2019re going to have a renaissance with respect to what\u2019s going on with young people, we have to fix our own place up first. I am saying it to every M\u0101ori, including myself, and not taking this judgmental view that she is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262511af08826408dbd52a3c8ece09d5c\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226c7732c088948528c11c3b3c96dc1c4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229377875e0829486c94ecc5d3fb14b7da\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have any cousins\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccd12da9157c4510a6dd8482531f3f8b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, wait on\u2014wait on a minute. Excuse me, I have ruled on this, and we are moving on to question No. 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c48ddca950148818250d184792fc23c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002268ba89bb951948b9821b9df9032aaf28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268ba89bb951948b9821b9df9032aaf28\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What recent announcements has the Government made about supporting people on the jobseeker benefit into work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5c4740a6a724b1aace0658d6bc35442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5c4740a6a724b1aace0658d6bc35442\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I announced a comprehensive package of reforms to the welfare system to support more people off jobseeker support into work and to introduce tougher consequences for those who repeatedly do not meet their benefit obligations. This includes a new traffic light system to inform people what is required of them to continue receiving a benefit and warn them when they are not meeting those expectations. Our Government believes that work is the best pathway to independence and further opportunities. We continue to take action to support New Zealanders into work, and the traffic light system is an important tool to achieve this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022093fc8e6d6274a8d86627ec4c72143b9\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the traffic light system introduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227425956394664691846cf7e38b01b9f2\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The traffic light system was introduced to clearly communicate to job seekers what is expected of them and to ensure they comply with their obligations. It\u00A0spells out if they are at risk of breaching their work obligations and what the consequences are of failing to comply. Our Government expects those receiving taxpayers\u2019 support to meet their basic obligations to become work-ready and to find work, because we believe in rights and responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022071f448b1dce4d14a18aa26f33b0d490\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: How will the traffic light system work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f2e03fbf49e42048248d90de6d63916\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The traffic light system categorises job seekers based on their compliance level, providing crystal clear steps on how to comply with their obligations. Green means a beneficiary is on track and complying with all their work obligations. Orange means a job seeker has failed an obligation and must re-comply within five days. Red means a job seeker has breached their obligations, which will result in sanctions being imposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaf5dc74272b47c6a7774fbe415f0a93\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: How else does the traffic light system affect job seekers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c08f3f7aaf14b82b3d6fa18cb8c18e2\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Job seekers will be required to reapply for their benefit every six months, and they must also complete a mandatory job seeker profile. This will enable the Ministry of Social Development to match people with job vacancies. There will also be new, non-financial sanctions that will be available next year, and past failures will be counted against a job seeker\u2019s record for two years, instead of one. Our Government is making our welfare system more proactive to help job seekers into work and experience the benefit of greater financial independence and further opportunities that come from work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da192a09c17a4e39b098ce199e957d31\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022b41280beae91417a9c155b1ee30e588e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b41280beae91417a9c155b1ee30e588e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Justice: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CGood legislation involves everybody, and bad legislation is usually when somebody goes off and does something by themselves \u2026 I\u2019m never going to be arrogant enough to think that I have the answers to everything\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e47aed76e29749eb87dcbeb20d468ee2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Nicole McKee, in the context of her ministerial responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00228c07916976814325b6f8425722cf5397\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c07916976814325b6f8425722cf5397\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. In answer to the question, yes. That means that, for example, we need to avoid the type of rushed lawmaking that led to a three-day select committee and a 10-day\u2014total\u2014process for the last reform of the Arms Act by the previous Government. I also stand by another statement I made in the article that the member references: \u201CI\u2019ve got to make sure it\u2019s not my personal views that go forward but rather collected views.\u201D As part of my four-phase firearms reform work programme, New Zealanders will have four opportunities to submit their views to the select committee. Furthermore, stakeholders from both sides of the debate have had the chance to participate in focused consultation on both clubs and ranges reforms and the review of the firearms registry. This Government cares about the voices of New Zealanders, and we are doing the due diligence that should have been done back in 2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d343738af7241969cf22825920a0060\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she attempt to remove Police\u2019s comment \u201CThe stakeholder consultation is heavily weighted towards firearm licence holders and should include broader perspectives, including from groups like the Police Association.\u201D from the Cabinet paper on firearms reforms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dfd38bc13c243bbb57f2e5e1c449605\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: As I have actually publicly said, learning about the Cabinet process and how we go about utilising the papers, I was informed that I could not remove some of the comments, and I wondered why they were there in the first place, seeing as it was my paper. I\u2019m very pleased with the advice that I got that I should keep it there and actually respond to those comments. I\u2019d also point out that the Police Association were never on the original list of those that should have been spoken to that was given to me, and the list that the Labour Government used beforehand. I\u2019m quite happy with the very fulsome response I\u2019m getting from New Zealand Police and the fact that they are being so fulsome with their responses. They represent their entire workforce; not just their union.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da836b7fdebd41319e4b44142282611c\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Police Association president, Chris Cahill, that \u201CWithout a registry, you buy as many firearms as you like. There\u2019s no controls, whether you still have them or you pass them on to someone else.\u201D, and is she concerned that without a firearms registry, A-category firearms like Alfa Carbine rifles will get into the hands of criminals who directly threaten front-line police officers\u2019 safety; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd2fba302baf4264b90063995eff6869\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, I do not agree with Mr Cahill, because legislation actually has restrictions around the legal transfer of firearms\u2014part of the reason why we need to have people involved in the consultation that actually understand the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290bbd24ce16d4dd78fd7af6eb8c797e4\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Police advice\u2014not Police Association advice; Police advice\u2014on the Government\u2019s firearms reform programme that \u201CThis should report back to at least two Ministers, as National Party supports the registry.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251e37d7725c64a589d2acef49f6cf6ab\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I have been given the opportunity, on behalf of the Government, to lead this reform in the firearms space. What is really important is that we as a Government, as a whole, agree with the process as we move through the transparent process of four firearms reform phases. I\u2019m really happy with the opportunity that I have been given to make New Zealand a safer place, because that side failed to do that post-2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022051cdd3880464de398f5276472fa1bfb\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister doing to target gun crime in our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229469110ce08841fd922070781d88e2ce\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is committed to targeting violent offenders and gang members who use illegally held firearms to commit crimes in our communities. Earlier in the year, we introduced legislation to Parliament to strengthen the ability for police to search violent offenders and gang members who are subject to a firearms prohibition order for illegally held firearms. New Zealanders deserve to feel safe in their communities from gang members and violent offenders who use firearms to intimidate, to threaten, and also to harm. Strengthening the firearms prohibition laws will give police the powers needed to tackle illegal firearm use head-on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c2faa79d18e4c2cb88614d4164f3e9e\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How does she justify attempting to remove the power of Police to comment in a Cabinet paper when she is part of a Government that has spoken so strongly about increasing the powers of police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256552ee8ea1e4635ade80c6cf8544e90\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I think I answered that where I had already said that I am very grateful for New Zealand Police giving me their thoughtful and fulsome advice, and I also like the opportunity that I have to be able to rebut or even comment back. I\u2019m happy with the process. I\u2019m happy with New Zealand Police being involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d48beb39f2814798ade0d6ae96f6a919\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Science, Innovation and Technology\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022e769517591d84effaa106c05d13af4af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e769517591d84effaa106c05d13af4af\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology: What recent announcement has the Government made about gene technology?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00229e10844460824ecd920d2fe8f3a3231a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e10844460824ecd920d2fe8f3a3231a\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, the Prime Minister and I announced that we are overturning the nearly 30-year effective ban on gene technology, for the benefit of New Zealand. We will establish new legislation and a dedicated regulator based on the Australian regime. The science has matured, other countries have embraced gene technology, and it has potential to treat cancers, increase agricultural production, lower emissions, adapt to a changing climate, and, ultimately, grow the economy. Gene tech is already being used safely in 29 other countries, including many of our trading partners such as Australia, China, Japan, the US, Canada, and many European countries. New Zealand needs to keep up, and we will be able to do so with this new regime. I\u2019d also point out that I\u2019ve had some good conversations with colleagues across the House on this move and I\u2019m happy to provide briefings for MPs who are interested, and if they just get in touch with my office, we\u2019ll arrange that for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e6cce1ace8341b2b961b276ee2eed31\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: How can gene technology support higher productivity and growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8a4f1425bb146238b2b8e5753c79388\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re committed to building a productive and growing economy, and I\u2019m confident that gene technologies will contribute to that goal. In the primary sector, New Zealand scientists, including those at Plant and Food\u2014where we launched the policy\u2014have used gene technology to increase the productivity of crops, but only in laboratories. For example, researchers are looking at how to make fruit like apples and blueberries produce year-round, meaning faster breeding and, potentially, no off-season. Ultimately, this means better returns for growers and cheaper produce for consumers. However, under existing rules, virtually none of this research ever leaves the lab in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c638b573d4ed426eaf8341d5aa38dac4\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: How will gene technology support better health outcomes and lower greenhouse gas emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0bb0362a18848a5b68318131e3b9465\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: This policy will allow many more New Zealanders to access highly effective cancer treatments, including CAR T-cell therapy developed at Wellington\u2019s Malaghan Institute, and this treatment has already successfully treated patients with cancer for the handful of those who were able to participate in its trial. This change in the gene technology regime means more New Zealanders will be able to access this advanced treatment and others like it. Gene technologies can also help to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. New Zealand is an agricultural nation, which is why around half of our emissions come from agriculture. Our world-class farmers are at risk of being left behind their competitors if they don\u2019t access advanced gene technologies just as our competitors are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262faac59bb234f2ca7ca7e3b43f107d3\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: How will this new regime adequately manage risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc1861c89b504ec3bf8301aff1054702\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Gene technologies have moved significantly since the current legislation passed nearly 30 years ago, and I want to assure New Zealanders and this House that risk management will be at the forefront of the new regime. The regulator will focus on risks to human health and to the environment. The regime will be risk-based, which means technologies with greater unknowns or higher risks will be subject to the most stringent rules. The regime includes public consultation, and the Ministry for Primary Industries will be responsible for enforcement. A technical advisory group will support the regulator, and a M\u0101ori advisory group will consider implications for M\u0101ori. I expect this new legislation will be in the House by the end of this year. It will have a full select committee process, and I encourage members of this House and the public to engage. I intend the new regulator to be in place by the end of 2025. I\u2019m very confident that this regime will get New Zealand up to speed with the rest of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846ebdffbbaf4915974ec619f49f2e61\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes oral questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d979f8bb1764f25b03c295cf611f90f\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224aab107197d541e9a60a7c7530b9ceb1\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022a494d86a405549ceb77613ee54d212d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a494d86a405549ceb77613ee54d212d2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into tomorrow morning for further consideration in committee of the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill; and consideration in committee of the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill; and the Corrections Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225ecd42eb1e5f400d97620705cd3e598f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002252feaa9bd63e4975a1abe9b51f8f407f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252feaa9bd63e4975a1abe9b51f8f407f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill, the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill, and the Corrections Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbd8f26991824800a0bfb24225eab4f9\u0022\u003EHOUSE IN COMMITTEE\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022edb196ea118b44f2a8d9a6da70263d6d\u0022\u003EHOUSE IN COMMITTEE\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2fee37e2e6d4578a4e579b2a8e8ad66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2fee37e2e6d4578a4e579b2a8e8ad66\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee for further consideration of the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill and for consideration of the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill and the Corrections Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ab3635abb5040c0939d0a1dc03cfee7\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000298\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 8 August.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd797e8f9b274128be7f34f1fba087b8\u0022\u003EPart 2  Water services delivery plans and foundational information disclosure requirements (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb3f42ffdde64dd59791b26e32712923\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb3f42ffdde64dd59791b26e32712923\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we start with the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. When we were last considering the bill, we were debating Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 8 to 46B, \u201CWater services delivery plans and foundational information disclosure requirements\u201D. Once again, the question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022c11a0f1befd64d3da15232afdc01281d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c11a0f1befd64d3da15232afdc01281d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s been 10 or 12 days since we were last looking at this bill, so I just want to remind the Chair and also other members in the Chamber of the process we were working through with respect to Part\u00A02 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264667515464d4150ad8b93d830529a43\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I have that information in front of me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf5675777b1e498290a58fe99f00746d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Part 2 of the bill, of course, has three subparts, and we\u2019d worked through subpart by subpart. We were just transitioning from Subpart 2 to Subpart 3. We\u2019ve really just begun the debate on Subpart 3, and there are a number of questions that I want to dig into on Subpart 3, some of which, I think, are just around drafting\u2014where I think that some things are a little confusing because of it\u2014and some of which are substantive questions where I\u2019m hoping for some information from the Minister. Looking at Subpart 3, it is about the \u201Cinformation disclosure requirements\u201D. Now, the drafters have the word \u201CFoundational\u201D in there. I can\u2019t quite work out why. I guess they thought it was pretty, but it is just the basic information that needs to be disclosed on requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAs I understand it, the way it\u2019s going to work out is that the Commerce Commission is, in effect, going to be the regulator here, and it is going to be regulating water services entities in various ways. This particular part of the bill is setting out the sorts of information that can be required from water services entities, but sitting within that, then, are some rather interesting questions, not just on what sorts of information. By requesting or specifying that sort of information, it betrays something about the nature of the bill overall and the nature of these water services reforms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to draw the committee\u2019s attention to Subpart 3, clause 32, subclause (2)(c)\u2014so\u00A0clause 32(2)(c). There\u2019s a couple of sets of words in here that I want to sort of dig into. The first one is saying, if we look at that subclause (2)(c), the first thing is that water services entities or providers of water services \u201Care limited in their ability to extract excessive profits.\u201D It\u2019s kind of interesting just in itself, because it implies that water services entities will have a profit motive. Now, that\u2019s quite interesting because, up to now, water services have been provided in this country by local authorities, by regional authorities in some cases\u2014in Auckland, it\u2019s provided by Watercare. We do have some very localised little schemes around the place, which are pretty interesting, but they\u2019re not profit-making entities. This phrase, \u201Cability to extract excessive profits\u201D, is quite a telling phrase, because the implication is that the whole purpose of this scheme, the whole purpose of this legislation, is not just to ensure that New Zealanders have access to good drinking water, that the waste water is appropriately treated, and that stormwater systems are set up so that people aren\u2019t affected by stormwater, but it implies that there is a profit motive. Now, I think the Government needs to justify this quite singular shift.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just the words \u201Cexcessive profits\u201D, but it\u2019s that they can extract profits at all. Now, I guess there\u2019d be some reassurance around this if we could be sure that any profits that were generated by a water services entity were going to continue to be held within that particular water services entity and used only for the purpose of ensuring the future of that water services entity and ensuring it would continue to supply the water services that were required. But I think we need some reassurance, perhaps from the officials, that in fact is going to be the case. I\u2019d like to know for sure that a future Government wasn\u2019t going to be able to somehow change these rules around and suddenly start extracting profits from water. After all, if we look overseas to the United Kingdom\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00227dea3f5593784ba999ad7e2435fba5fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dea3f5593784ba999ad7e2435fba5fb\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebdf8be2c91d4b819548b8cc66c9d529\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebdf8be2c91d4b819548b8cc66c9d529\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour): \u003C/span\u003EThank you. I do want to continue this\u2014it\u2019s actually a very serious point. If we look at what has happened in the United Kingdom with Thames Water, there\u2019s been the most appalling extraction of profits and the most appalling water pollution. That\u2019s happened in part because of the profit motive. So I want some pretty strong reassurance around a profit motive at all and also around the term \u201Cexcessive profit\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a set of questions around excessive profit as well. First up, there\u2019s the profit motive, but the second one is: what is meant by excessive profit? Now, that implies that a water services entity may make a \u201Creasonable profit\u201D but not an \u201Cexcessive profit\u201D. So I want to know who is going to be making that judgment about what is an excessive profit as opposed to a reasonable profit and what that judgment is going to be based on. Is it going to be based on the number of rateable households? Is it going to be based on the number of people using the water supply? Is it a return on investment? Is it some kind of relationship to assets? Is it related to future revenue streams? There\u2019s a whole lot of questions in there as to what a reasonable profit might look like, as opposed to an excessive profit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe might think those two little words didn\u2019t really mean very much at all, but there\u2019s actually some pretty substantial issues sitting in there and I would appreciate the Minister giving us some reassurance around them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022922e1f43eac24c86895e3a5d2a610e60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022922e1f43eac24c86895e3a5d2a610e60\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I join my colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell in seeking some clarity from the Minister on that and on whether there is any thought as to putting within the bill any definition of what \u201Cexcessive profits\u201D are. But I just want to speak within this Part 2 to Subpart 3 specifically to clauses 32, 39, and 40. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, my colleague talked about clause 32(2)(c), but I want to talk about clause 32(2)(a)(i), and that is the incentives that are going to be put in place for various things. One of these is to \u201Cinnovate and to invest in water services, including in replacement, upgraded, and new assets;\u201D. First of all, I\u2019d like to know from the Minister in the chair what incentives are going to be put in place for the entities in terms of the investment. I\u2019d also like to know more what is meant in clause 32(2)(a)(i) in terms of innovation. What are we talking about here? Are we talking about technological innovation, are we talking about different business models\u2014and this relates very much to the questions that my colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell has just been asking in terms of introducing within the same clause the term \u201Cextract excessive profits.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAre we talking about innovation in business models, which leads us on to a question which we really see threaded right through many of the clauses in this bill, and we want some certainty from the Minister in the chair around what protections are in place to stop the privatisation of these assets, to ensure that these do stay public assets and that these are things that will continue to be owned by the people that have built them up over many, many, many generations. So I\u2019d like to know how that incentive, innovation\u2014what they mean and what the Government and the Minister in the chair are envisioning through those things, and maybe have some examples of the kinds of things that we could expect to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI do have some very specific questions just on some detail going through. If we go now\u00A0to clause 39, \u201CCharge for providing copies to public\u201D, it states that \u201C(1) A specified entity that is required, by a determination made under section 35, to provide copies of statements and information to the public on request may charge for providing those copies. (2) The charge must be no more than is reasonably required to recover the costs of providing those copies.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, of course, the Official Information Act (OIA) also intersects here as well, and I want to know if the purpose of this clause 39 is to supersede the Official Information Act and the ability to charge for official information or the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Act (LGOIMA), as may be the case in this, rather than the OIA. How does the Minister see that clause of this bill interacting with either LGOIMA or the OIA legislation, and I ask whether she sees there being any difference in the operation of those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThen, we go on to clause 40 under Subpart 3 in Part 2, which is the \u201CAdditional monitoring and investigation powers based on subpart 8 of Part 4 of Commerce Act 1986\u201D. If we have a look at clause 40(1)(c), there are powers given to \u201Cexamine, consider, or investigate any activity, cost, revenue, transfer, asset valuation, circumstance, or event that is occurring or that has occurred during the previous 7 years:\u201D, I\u2019d just like to know from the Minister why \u201C7 years\u201D was chosen. Why is seven years the significant period of time we need to have that retrospective power given in terms of those monitoring powers for the Commerce Commission? Why not five years? Why not 10 years? Why is it that \u201C7 years\u201D has been deemed by the Minister, in drafting this legislation, as the optimum period of retrospective ability to go back and have a look? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, obviously, as we go through this clause by clause under Subpart 3 within Part 2, there\u2019ll be many more specific questions like that. But just to summarise for the Minister: what is meant by incentives and what is meant by innovation in clause 32(2)(a)? Then there are the business models and how that intersects with the ability with the expectation around profits that my colleague has spoken about, then there is the intersection of clause\u00A039 with the OIA and LGOIMA, and then, in terms of \u201C7 years\u201D, why that number was chosen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022876bef85890f49689248b64d8b28b6bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022876bef85890f49689248b64d8b28b6bc\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. With Part 2, Subpart\u00A03 on foundational information disclosure requirements, there are actually quite a few different elements to this subpart and it\u2019s really important for us to be able to unpack each of the elements here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI have a number of questions, but in terms of the first question, I\u2019m going to kind of draw on the cost element to this. So, to start with, I am looking at clause 40A \u201CLevy\u201D. Now, this is a new addition to this particular version of the bill we have in front of us. It says that \u201C(1) Every person who provides water services must pay to the Minister\u201D, and to refresh our memory, I think this actually goes back to the comments of one of our Labour colleagues\u2014Rachel Brooking\u2014previously in our last session, around the potential risk of a bottom-up effect when we\u2019re looking at what sort of costs and what sort of charges we are going to be producing and the unintentional consequences around this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFor this particular one, I would really like to get one very specific clarification from the Minister. This is around the concern of what is on page 11 of the commentary on the bill. On page 11, under the section \u201CCommerce Commission may make determination\u201D, it says, \u201CWe recommend inserting clause 40A into the bill, a levy-making power to recover the costs of the Commerce Commission\u2019s regulatory work under subpart 3 of Part\u00A02.\u201D I just want to get the specific idea, because we have seen in a previous bill around waste management that once we started charging levies for the work of a commission, we are straddling a very dangerous territory between what is considered a levy and what is considered a tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, for this bit, I would really like some confirmation and some confidence from the Minister that the levy that is going to be charged and is going to be payable by every person or persons who provides water services can be tracked and will be accountable specifically to Part 2 of Subpart 3, and no broader than that. Then, what we might see, and what we don\u2019t want to see, is that our water service providers are paying for the work that is done by the Commerce Commission for other purposes not relevant to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAlso, in that regard, it would be really good to get some confidence and clarification from the Minister on exactly how those kinds of charges will be incurred and the mechanisms that would likely be sent to these water services providers. Is it that every water service provider will have to pay a standard levy based on the service they provide or is a pay-as-you-go kind of service required from the Commerce Commission? So that is the first point that I would like some clarification on. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00226ffd9e6f4c0544b88ecce4da938101ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ffd9e6f4c0544b88ecce4da938101ff\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the members from across the Chamber for their questions thus far. I just wanted to touch on a couple that have come from members of the Labour Party in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EDr Deborah Russell has raised the issue of the foundational information disclosure. I\u2019m sure the member, like many members in this Chamber, will know that information disclosure is a very common economic regulation tool. She\u2019s spoken specifically to clause 32(2)(c) about the excessive profits. I\u2019d just caution the member against misrepresenting that particular language, and I would go so far as to say possibly scaremongering. As most members will know, this phrase is a typical safeguard used and found often in the Commerce Act to protect consumers in industries where there is monopoly characteristics. In this scenario, people won\u2019t be able to choose to go to a different water services provider, so this clause will ensure consumers are being charged a fair price. Again, I just want to reiterate this is a very common safeguard in the Commerce Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ETurning to some of the questions raised by the Hon Dr Megan Woods, she asked specifically about what incentives there are to innovate and to invest. Well, isn\u2019t it wonderful that we do have this opportunity in this Chamber to rewrite this piece of legislation because we believe that transparency is a real opportunity to innovate around. Transparency to consumers on what they are being charged and how those charges will be used\u2014this is a real opportunity for councils to be able to do that. As the saying goes, sunlight is the best disinfectant. So information disclosure makes councils act transparently, particularly about the state of the assets, how efficient they are, and their plans to upgrade and replace those assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EDr Woods has further asked around protections against privatisation. Well, these are already provided for in the Local Government Act 2002. Nothing in this bill changes those provisions. This bill only relates to local government water service providers. So the Local Government Act provisions apply as a matter of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002279550d75f02647649bad8f09d93879f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279550d75f02647649bad8f09d93879f8\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister in the chair, the Hon Nicola Grigg, for taking the time just then to answer some questions. I would very much like the Minister to also answer the questions that were asked in the last session\u2014I\u2019ve got a new point as well\u2014and those related, particularly in my contribution, to clauses 32 and 33 and the interaction between those two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis isn\u2019t a greatly political point that I\u2019m making here; it\u2019s simply a drafting one, which I\u2019m sure the Minister and the officials will want to answer. It is related to clause\u00A032, \u201CPurposes of this subpart\u201D. At clause 32(3), it says, \u201CThis subpart\u2014(a) relates only to\u201D\u2014and it references some other sections, which are about the framework and disclosing information, and then there\u2019s an \u201Cand\u201D. But then you turn over the page to clause 33 and it\u2019s \u201CApplication of this subpart\u201D. How does the application of the subpart in clause 33 relate to what is, presumably, what clause 32(3) should be doing? It\u2019s just a drafting question\u2014a simple one there\u2014which I think it would be useful to have an answer to. It might be a mistake; it might be able to be rectified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy more substantive questions before we closed up shop the last Thursday, I think it was, we were sitting\u2014it seems a lifetime ago\u2014were on clause 40A, about the levy. The Minister for this bill had been explaining to us in answers that this bill is going to be good for councils; it\u2019s going to be bottom-up rather than top-down. I don\u2019t understand, then, why there needs to be a levy at clause 40A. I do note that the Finance and Expenditure Committee, in its report, did talk about how this is for Commerce Commission work. But it would, again, be useful to understand how this piece of legislation is helping councils, because it very much looks like it is doing exactly the opposite and is putting a whole lot of centralised requirements on to councils whilst the Minister tells us it\u2019s doing exactly the opposite. You can imagine that that is quite frustrating for us members asking questions about this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ERelated to that levy and \u201CWhy do you need this levy?\u201D\u2014and it is a new point that the officials won\u2019t have heard from me\u2014if we go over a couple of pages, the subheading just before clause 42 says, \u201CPecuniary penalty orders\u201D, and there is a whole scheme here whereby the High Court can make such an order. This relates to not disclosing information; so we\u2019re talking about these reports and disclosing information. At clause 43, we see the maximum amount of a pecuniary penalty. For an individual, it\u2019s $500,000, but for an organisation, it\u2019s $5 million. Presumably, the organisations would be the councils or the council-controlled organisations that are part of this bill. And $5 million for not providing information seems like a very high amount. I\u2019d like to know why it\u2019s so high and if it does just relate to those information disclosures, and how that compares to other legislation where there are these penalty clauses for not disclosing information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI understand that there may be circumstances where councils have not disclosed information that\u2019s important and that there perhaps should be a penalty, although that would make more sense if you were saying that the whole scheme of this legislation is to make councils do things to do with water infrastructure. The Minister keeps telling us it\u2019s not about that; it\u2019s bottom-up, not top-down. This all seems, to me, to be very top-down. So, again, it would be useful to have some answers on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022927097d299544b2c8cb29ab83591a536\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022927097d299544b2c8cb29ab83591a536\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour): \u003C/span\u003EThank you, Madam Chair. The genesis of New Zealand\u2019s change in the management of water arose from the drinking-water problems that we had at Havelock North, where under-investment by the then council for many years led to thousands of people becoming ill from contaminated water, and some of them dying. Through the evolution of the regulatory response to that failure at local government level, and, actually, failures within the Ministry of Health, decisions have been made by successive Governments not just to consider drinking water but also to be looking at the disposal of foul water or sewage. My question relates to how clause 37 of the bill deals with some of the complexities around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EClause 37 of the bill says that a determination can be made by the commission, as I understand it, as to information that has to be disclosed to the commission, and the contents of the determinations are set out in clause 37 of the bill. And under clause\u00A037(3)(i) the \u201Cquality performance measures and statistics\u201D and (j) the \u201Cassumptions, policies, and methodologies used or applied in the delivery of water services\u201D are things that have to be disclosed if the commission asks them to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy question relates to the interaction between that and how a water services entity gets a consent for their discharge of sewage and the standards that might be applied to that. There is a discussion in later parts of this legislation as to the overriding of the existing National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, and we\u2019ll come to those questions under that part. But am I correct in my understanding that the level of treatment, if you like, that is required for a sewage discharge will somehow be set by a regional council, probably? It\u2019s the quality parameter that it might be set and that resource consent that will be required to be reported to in these disclosure obligations so that the commission can take account of what the costs are of proper treatment, for example, of sewage in accordance with their monitoring role as to what is an appropriate level of cost to be charged for the delivery of that service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m not making a comment here as to what ought to be the standard of treatment. That\u2019s obviously up to the consent authority. But am I correct in my understanding that the\u00A0commission has to, effectively, await that coming from the water services entity, who gets it from a regional council before they can make a determination as to what\u2019s an appropriate fee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002253b99de959fa4aa6a0758978520b48f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253b99de959fa4aa6a0758978520b48f3\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just before that, I would like to still get a clarification from the Minister in the chair, the Hon Nicola Grigg, regarding the question I asked. Just also on the topic of when we\u2019re looking at the cause of some of these areas, there\u2019s one tiny thing I would like to ask the Minister, clause 39(2), which is that when you\u2019re looking at copies to the public, it mentions that a specified entity can have charges for these copies, but they can only be used for the recovery of those copies. A very short question: can I just check with the Minister if that applies to e-copies, which may not come at any additional cost to the specified entity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, I know that I\u2019m going to jump a little bit\u2014I do have questions for earlier clauses, but then there is this one particular section that I think is incredibly concerning that I would like to address right now, and that is sort of the dichotomy that\u2019s being created between clauses 42 and 45. Clauses 42 and 45 talk about what happens when a person, in this case, does not comply with the obligation to disclose information. The concern I have here is that subclause 42(1)(a) talks about it in the context of the person both knowingly and actively contravening an obligation to disclose information. Now, under criminal law, we see that fulfils a requirement of both mens rea and actus reus\u2014both the mental component and the physical component. However, in subclause 42(2), it talks of a person being considered involved in a contravention\u2014i.e., what is considered in 42(1)(e)\u2014if the person, per subclause 42(2)(a), \u201Chas aided, abetted, counselled, or procured\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the language that they use here is akin to, or is parallel to, section 66 of the Crimes Act which is around party liability. This, however, is incredibly concerning because this doesn\u2019t necessarily have the same level of mens rea that is required. The issue we have here is the penalty amount\u2014for everything that is considered under clause 42(1) and (2)\u2014can hold a maximum penalty of $500,000 in the terms of individuals, or $5 million in any other cases, per clause 43(1). However, if we see the offence under clause 45(1)(a), where a person commits an offence\u2014not necessarily a pecuniary penalty\u2014if \u201Cthe person, knowing that water services are subject to an obligation to disclose information\u201D and \u201Cintentionally contravenes\u201D\u2014again, we\u2019re looking at both the physical and the mental components, the actus reus and the mens rea. However, in clause 45, when a person knowingly and actively decides not to disclose, the fine is only $200,000 for an individual, or $1 million in any other case, which means that under clause\u00A045 an individual who then decided not to disclose the information would get a lower penalty than someone who may have just aided or abetted someone under clause 42(2), which has a chance of getting a much higher penalty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would like some clarification from the Minister regarding why these particular sections were laid out like this, and under what circumstances would one trigger clause\u00A042(2)(a) and clause 45(1)(a), and is there a rationale why a person who may be a party liable may potentially get a much higher penalty than someone who actively, both mentally and physically, decided not to provide the information? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a216b5ea75da4356912038bb76bff698\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Deborah Russell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212485657d6c64b399b91e876f04316aa\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b71a8492db8a45c19ef766529cc6a188\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019m sorry. I\u2019m sorry, but I had given the call to Deborah Russell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00224f28c6d86f6f4162a4b51c220cb700eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f28c6d86f6f4162a4b51c220cb700eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, OK, thank you, Madam Chair. I want a brief follow-up on a number of issues. The questions I was asking earlier were around the phrase \u201Cexcessive profits\u201D and the Minister in the chair gave me the explanation that it\u2019s just a pretty standard term used in this sort of field of law, this regulatory area. It might be a standard term, but it doesn\u2019t actually answer the substantive issue as to why we\u2019re making profits in this space at all. Explaining that it\u2019s a common term is interesting. I get that it\u2019s a common phrase, but not then the substantive issue there. So I do want the Minister to come back to that and explain why these water services entities are making profits at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to raise a further point on the discussion around the levy in clause 40A, and we\u2019ve already had a bit of discussion about this from some of my colleagues. Everyone has to pay a levy and it\u2019s determined in a particular way. I\u2019m just looking at clause 40A(2)(d) \u201Cproviding different levies for different classes of providers of water services\u201D. I\u2019m interested in what those different classes of water services might be, because my first thought when seeing this discussion around the levy was the concern that some water services entities are much larger than others. Some of them come off a much larger rating base than others. Some of them are going to be in a much better position to pay a levy than others, so I\u2019d like some discussion from the Minister as to how we might set up those different classes of water services entities or what\u2019s going to be taken into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI guess as someone who is always in favour of progressive taxation and progressive levies, I\u2019m rather hoping that there is a progressive scheme in mind here so that the cost weighs proportionately, I guess, so we\u2019ll look for an answer on that. Those are just follow-ups on some of the questions that some of my colleagues have already asked, just elucidating a little bit more information there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe question I am particularly interested in that I wanted to do some untangling on is in clauses 36 and 37. If we go to 36(1)(b), the Commerce Commission has made a determination, the water services entity has to provide the specified information, and then it says it has to provide a copy of all the information; it has to be supplied to the commission, who is going to be making the decisions disclosed in accordance with the determination within five working days after the specified entity first publicly discloses the information. That felt a little curious to me, because ordinarily I thought it might have gone the other way around, that the information was disclosed to the commission and then it was made available publicly a few days later, so I was thinking, \u201CWhy on earth are we doing it in this particular order?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIf we go to clause 37\u2014I must have left a number out when I was writing this out. Clause 37(1)(c): any determination has to specify the time frames that must be complied with. So that\u2019s kind of interesting. It just seems to me a little bit in reverse order there. I would ordinarily expect to see a time frame\u2014that\u2019s fine\u2014but then it says it\u2019s a time frame for public disclosure of information, but the person who\u2019s wanting the information is actually the commission, and so it just seems to be a little odd. I would have thought that the way to structure this would have been to say that under clause 37(1)(c), you can set a time frame and that is the time frame to respond to the commission. Then I would have expected to see in clause 36(1)(b), you\u2019ve got to supply to the commission a copy of all the information, and then I would expect that you would have to publicly disclose it within five days of having supplied all the information to the commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBecause it\u2019s the other way around from what would be expected, there must be a reason for doing it that way. I would hope it\u2019s not just a convenience reason but a substantive reason as to why we would want that information to be public before it went to the commission. There might be some good that is obtained by doing it that way, and I would like to hear the Minister explain a little bit as to why it\u2019s been framed in that particular way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002221a4fd2b2812411ea82d70bd0ba561c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221a4fd2b2812411ea82d70bd0ba561c3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The member expresses a hope that some good may be obtained. I hope not to disappoint her. Covering a number of different questions that have been raised by various members around the Chamber, in the committee, I start with, I think, the same member\u2019s question around the levy and observe that different classes of providers could include distinguishing between providers by population size, but that is detail that yet could be provided in the regulation. In that sense, of course, the purpose of passing this primary legislation isn\u2019t the last word, so I think that\u2019s commendable that she raised it. That\u2019s an important detail that needs to be worked through in a secondary legislation kind of way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs to the Hon David Parker\u2019s question around what might be described as mixing up the role of regulators, the Resource Management Act will continue to set regulatory standards for waste-water discharges, whereas the economic regulator will consider the quality standards that councils must adhere to when looking at revenue sufficiency and investment choices, so giving them those mechanisms to be able to provide appropriate settings from an economic point of view. And, of course, there\u2019s a link between the environment and the economy, when we\u2019re talking about water usage, to the extent that, of course, we want to minimise water wastage so leaks can be found most efficiently. One efficient mechanism for that is by having people charged for the use of water and, thus, incentivised to notice when there are shortfalls in the pipeline infrastructure and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs to questions around pecuniary penalties and offences, I\u2019m advised\u2014and I\u2019m sure rightly\u2014that this approach is consistent with that taken in the Commerce Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for the questions around levy making, a subject dear to the heart of everyone who is currently in or has previously been a member of the Regulations Review Committee, what\u2019s in the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c80ac61a6898479399af38c5b9e016de\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Great committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb11d6081ad4642a2a17d38b42ff8e9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: It is a great committee. Thank you, Mr Hamilton of Hamilton. I sound like I\u2019ve got a stutter, don\u2019t I? I just had to give you that shout-out. So what\u2019s in the bill is a standard approach to regulations that relate to levy making. They would be developed, of course, through standard Order in Council process, and the details of those would need to be developed and set out as part of that process and be, of course, consistent with the general rules around levy making such that they, for want of a better phrase, need to relate to the work that\u2019s been undertaken for the benefit of those levied in that particular way on a narrow set of guidelines and not by way of a general revenue raising or slush fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe member Rachel Brooking, the Hon Rachel Brooking, asked, I understand\u2014I think, prior to my time in this particular position\u2014a question around the subject of how the piece of legislation is helping councils. I would simply point out, relying on the handwriting of someone who\u2019s got much better handwriting than me happily, economic regulation is critical to supporting councils to become more efficient and invest in their infrastructure. This will include information disclosure, and I heard some comments on that in my time in the Chamber as part of this committee, helping councils to be more transparent about how much revenue is required to cover costs and investment choices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, in the context of paying for water infrastructure that is obviously needed, ratepayers need to understand that that is important work that should be undertaken by their council. They will have the ability to fund that in a transparent way, rather than having those costs buried in a more general rating burden. Of course, the effect of not highlighting the costs associated with providing water infrastructure, I think historically has been that many local councils and territorial authorities have probably avoided making such investments, because they\u2019re perhaps not as interesting politically as other types of infrastructure on which a ribbon can be cut and so forth. So that\u2019s my very comprehensive answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for pecuniary penalties, again, this is consistent with the approach taken in the Commerce Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for that difference between clauses 32 and 33, they are separated into the purpose of the subpart and who it applies to\u2014clause 32 being the purpose and clause 33 to whom it applies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00229b618961bf7948e7b0812e05e4a01179\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b618961bf7948e7b0812e05e4a01179\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I, before I take the next call, just say we are starting to see a bit of repetition, so I\u2019m just looking for new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022fffb848fd86c4afb8b67e8c64b7dc4b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fffb848fd86c4afb8b67e8c64b7dc4b1\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do apologise for sort of jumping around a little bit in terms of Subpart 3. There is one particular part in clause 32 that I would like to address that my colleagues have not previously addressed. I also want to, first, apologise to the Hon Rachel Brooking; I forgot to use your honorifics before. This is to do with clause 32(2), and I want to specifically focus on the words \u201Cproduced in competitive markets\u201D. Also, thank you to the Minister in the chair for your clear and concise responses to the questions before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, clause 32(2)(c) has been mentioned, but subclause (2) itself has not been, in the context of \u201Ccompetitive markets\u201D, as well as when you are reading it in line with subclause (1)(a), which is \u201Cto promote the long-term benefit of consumers\u201D. I want to check with the Minister, who, obviously, has been providing clear and concise answers: what is, then, prioritised here? Would being \u201Cconsistent with outcomes produced in competitive markets\u201D take priority over the benefit to consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe reason I mention this is because when we\u2019re looking at subclause (2), although it\u2019s in reference to subclause (1)(a)\u2014and you list additional subclauses beyond this\u2014but the\u00A0fact that \u201Ccompetitive markets\u201D has been put into a higher prioritised clause implies that it takes priority over other areas, such as what is mentioned in (a) to (c). If \u201Coutcomes produced in competitive markets\u201D takes priority over any subsequent clauses\u2014i.e.,\u00A0particularly around the \u201Cbenefits to consumers\u201D\u2014then, what would the compromise be when a water service provider, when the entity, would then go, \u201CLook, due to competitive markets, we need to increase in terms of prices, as opposed to lowering, as in subclause\u00A0(2)(b).\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo I wanted to check, with \u201Ccompetitive markets\u201D, can they then say, \u201CDue to that, we can\u2019t do this.\u201D\u2014as in, \u201CWe can\u2019t provide cleaner water, we can\u2019t provide sufficient water because we are in a competitive market.\u201D I\u2019m just really curious as to why that is in there in the first place. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00226ab25688304d4447854de3065c58ac2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ab25688304d4447854de3065c58ac2f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We don\u2019t see the principles of establishing a \u201Ccompetitive market\u201D and \u201Cbenefit to consumers\u201D as being mutually exclusive. Because they\u2019re consistent, we think it\u2019s a moot point as to which would prevail in the event of a conflict, and, therefore, the relative priority is an interesting sort of academic question, but, with all due respect, I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any undermining of either of those priorities or tasks within the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00228ecf564f83884444b013f14fdcda6380\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ecf564f83884444b013f14fdcda6380\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Honorific included as well, thank you for that. We spent a bit of time on 32 and on 32(3)\u2014\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c0089f1355644a89961fd36f08e95e3\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: Repetition! Very repetitive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d46e0ab942a5492d882fe0d9c992766b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Lots of subparts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225141a157db864f77942041a451844a00\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: There are lots of different words in these clauses. One of these different words is that it relates to competition of water services. One of the water services is defined as stormwater, so the question is: how does competition relate to stormwater? I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s answer. I see that he is nodding there, and I thank the Minister for answering the questions\u2014it\u2019s very helpful, of course, for the Hansard. So thank you for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI wonder, in his previous answer to the question about the pecuniary penalties being $5 million for a council saying that it comes from the commerce legislation, has there been thought about the fact that this will only apply to councils or council-controlled organisations? So is that right to shift over from commerce legislation for giant companies\u2014$5 million might be an appropriate penalty, but a council is a public entity; it\u2019s ratepayer money. How is $5 million appropriate for that? If he could give an answer on that, that would be useful as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EFinally, I just note that the Minister is answering questions, which is very good, so I\u2019ll be very short. The Hon Dr Duncan Webb asked a question that has not been answered yet, and that was a point on councils that are not contiguous to each other. What happens to those councils? This was more in Subpart 2, but I would be very interested to hear an answer on that. I know that the officials were here when that question was asked. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002217fa0e19156b4121a9432139dac43775\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217fa0e19156b4121a9432139dac43775\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is my first opportunity to take a call on this part. As the Opposition spokesperson for commerce and consumer affairs, I am delighted to open up a new line of inquiry with the Minister about the Commerce Commission\u2019s powers that are set out in this part. I\u2019ll just draw the committee\u2019s attention to the first of those clauses which gives effect to the Commerce Act 1986, which is clause 40 in this part. I want to ask the Minister, first, the advice that the Minister received in granting the Commerce Commission these extra powers\u2014extra to those that it would otherwise have under the Commerce Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second question in line with that is really about the role of the Commerce Commission here, because at various stages which this law has been progressing through this House, there has been consideration given, in Parliament and in the Beehive and out in the wider infrastructure sector, about whether the Commerce Commission is the correct regulator for infrastructure. In various sectors of our infrastructure builds, we have a mix of public ownership and private ownership. In some situations, the Commerce Commission is the regulator of infrastructure providers who have a weighted assets return ratio on their infrastructure, and that\u2019s how they are primarily regulated in their law\u2014say, for example, the three regulated airports which come under the Commerce Commission\u2019s purview.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m asking because under clause 40 of this part, the Minister is introducing new powers for the Commerce Commission to, essentially, investigate situations where it does not have enough information to perform a regulatory role, but those powers are different to the way that it regulates, say, the regulated airports of which it is the infrastructure regulator. So those are the two questions that I\u2019ll open up this line of questions with the Minister for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00227017f76ace5c466492001a65347236f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227017f76ace5c466492001a65347236f9\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b42fb466c2ab423d963d7c21305cb0fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b42fb466c2ab423d963d7c21305cb0fe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I am still getting new material, so I will go back to the Hon Ginny Andersen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002269e605f4a0934fbab7de30036c7c40e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269e605f4a0934fbab7de30036c7c40e5\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour): \u003C/span\u003EI\u2019ve got a question for the Minister in relation to new section 38A which specifically relates to commercially sensitive information. This is a particularly sensitive issue because many of our councils around New Zealand probably don\u2019t know the full extent of some of the investment required to get water infrastructure up to the standard needed to even last over the next few years. So, of course, there\u2019s going to be numerous instances where there is potentially quite commercially sensitive information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019m quite interested in understanding how that balance is made between enabling ratepayers to have all of the information they need to know what\u2019s happening balanced with whatever is perceived as being commercially sensitive. Councils have made numerous decisions over the years and some of those have been incredibly difficult. When I think back in my own area in the Hutt Valley, you know, significant money was spent on a new event centre and redoing the town hall, and even subsidising a local business owner to build a hotel in the centre of Lower Hutt. People could argue that those ratepayers\u2019 funds probably could have been better spent in securing that we didn\u2019t have sewage pouring up in people\u2019s backyards and that we had adequate infrastructure in place to serve the new builds that were going on across the Hutt Valley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, when we go into this and open up the books, my question is: how will we determine what is commercially sensitive? Some of that might just be politically sensitive, and ratepayers might have a very good cause and reason to understand how those decisions were made. Because this is a new section and the commission has the power to exempt disclosure of commercially sensitive information, it would be very useful to understand how that weighing up of interests occurs and also if the commission\u2014which also has the power to revoke that exemption. So, if a determination has been made that information is commercially sensitive and not made available, what is the cause for a local interest group or other group of people who are lobbying to then go to the commission and request for that exemption to be revoked? I\u2019d be really interested to hear the Minister\u2019s views on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022d152e1a2aa9841df9ef8cca62d4d0d7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d152e1a2aa9841df9ef8cca62d4d0d7e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction): \u003C/span\u003EThank you Madam Chair. Taking the last point first from the Hon Ginny Andersen, the question around commercially sensitive information, I think the member identifies what is always a weighing exercise between the imperatives of commercially sensitive information being protected in the interests of encouraging enterprise in a way that\u2019s appropriate while, at the same time, recognising the public interest in the disclosure of information. To argue against an exemption or to appeal against it\u2014I imagine that usual avenues would be available for that purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for the question of stormwater and competition asked by the Hon Rachel Brooking, it seems to me that with the exercise of information disclosure, we have the opportunity to have maximum transparency, including for the purpose of ensuring that the efficient systems are in place, which include, you know, therefore, incentivising the innovation and investment in the improving of efficiency of delivery of stormwater services\u2014so competition in a pretty broad sense, I suppose, but nevertheless one that leads inexorably to the most efficient outcome in the way that we understand competition well in some manner of market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for the powers of the Commerce Commission, combining points made by Arena Williams, but also again the Hon Rachel Brooking, I point out that Rachel Brooking has identified a maximum penalty. It wouldn\u2019t be necessarily that the full weight of that dollar amount would be brought to bear against a territorial authority, having not met its obligations. We think that that maximum amount is set at the appropriate level because, of course, the penalties go to conduct. It\u2019s their relevance to incentivise right behaviour, perhaps in more of a stick than a carrot kind of way, but nevertheless incentivising the behaviour of the entity, rather than the nature of the entity being public or private that is relevant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of whether those powers are additional to those in the Commerce Act, as Arena Williams notes, they are, and we think that\u2019s appropriate, because we want to provide maximum ability for the mechanisms in the Act to be enforceable, and we think it\u2019s appropriate for the provision of water services on behalf of the ratepayers and citizens of the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022350e55d8aa6e417582830fe01dfa3d1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022350e55d8aa6e417582830fe01dfa3d1d\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would just like to ask about clause 38. I\u2019d like to know about the actual provision that relates to the Commerce Commission itself in terms of that information. Under subclause (3), it says that it\u2019s specified that the \u201Centity provides goods or services that are not incidental to or related to delivering water services\u201D. Can the Minister tell me when that would be something that the Commerce Commission would want to do and why they would want to look at that information? Also, whether that information might be looked at even if it is commercially sensitive, because, from what I understand under this clause, it\u2019s being used by the commission itself for its own purpose, rather than simply to pass on to somebody in terms of disclosure. Will they be looking at information that is perhaps commercially sensitive because they\u2019re a trusted entity to do that? What sort of information beyond that related to water services would be relevant to the inquiries that they\u2019ve made? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022199c49edb4d64809aa8574589ee6efee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022199c49edb4d64809aa8574589ee6efee\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We\u2019re still working our way through Subpart 3 of Part 2, and I\u2019ve just noticed, really, that we\u2019ve done a lot of talking around the Commerce Commission\u2019s powers and levies and so on, but we haven\u2019t really talked about the actual information that has to be supplied. We haven\u2019t paid a lot of\u2014in fact, we\u2019ve paid no\u2014attention to clause 37 at all and the actual information that a water services entity can be required\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7c5233f50604dd5b9183f6d2f85e317\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to fix that problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f24f1b3d8f428d9344fa2be53066a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to hand over to the Commerce Commission. And, yes, thank you, the Hon Rachel Brooking, I am going to fix that problem. I looked through the list of information that\u2019s going to be required. It looks pretty standard, but there is some stuff that I would like to clarify. It should only take one call or maybe a little bit of a second one. We\u2019ll see how we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ELook, the first one for the Minister is clause 37(3)(a) where, obviously, it says, well, \u201Cfinancial statements\u201D. The obvious question here is: are these audited financial statements? I\u2019m assuming that there would have been some audit process and perhaps that\u2014it would be interesting to know if they are going to be audited financial statements. That might be quite relevant when it comes to the projected financial statements as well, because it\u2019s not just financial statements that are required but also projected financial statements. Now, they would need to be subject to some kind of testing, some kind of review, to ensure that they are fair and accurate financial statements. I\u2019d be interested to know if that\u2019s sufficiently well specified, just by saying \u201Cfinancial statements\u201D and \u201Cprojected financial statements\u201D, or whether that particular phrasing gives sufficient scope to the Commerce Commission to say, \u201CActually, they need to be audited financials.\u201D I\u2019m sure that\u2019s a very straightforward question, but maybe it does need to be specified in the legislation itself. Yes, I could do that too, Minister. So that was the first question I wanted a little bit of clarification on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, running down the list, some of those things will just be subject again to audited statements like asset values and valuation reports, or the asset values would again come through financials valuation reports, so there\u2019ll be registered values and so on. Some of those are quite straightforward. But then, going to subclause (3)(e), \u201Ctransactions with related parties:\u201D\u2014now, that\u2019s a fairly obvious one that we\u2019d want disclosure on. What would be interesting to know there is which standard are we using for measuring those related parties? We know there are lots of different related party rules through lots of legislation. There will be a specific set of rules that apply to this definition of \u201Crelated parties\u201D. It would just be good to get an understanding, for a determination or something like that, of whether it\u2019s some particular standard that\u2019s being referred to there for the related parties and what entities that might entail. I can imagine, for a water services entity, it might be something like the relevant regional council or the relevant territorial authority, but what other related parties might be involved there as well\u2014and, of course, the transactions with them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis one I want to talk about a little bit is something which I\u2019m sure will appeal to the Minister in the chair, knowing as I do that he does enjoy words and appalling puns, really. That was a compliment, Minister, a compliment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7ad6dffd4bf4a1f89da90e2921c32a5\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Dad jokes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022004ad5553a024c65be482c29aa6bbfa7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Dad jokes, the \u201CMinister of Dad Jokes\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3026a5e3e7941e9983227dcdbb41cac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not disorderly!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220310c444f9984a3394b92bf14b88715a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 37(3)(i): the word \u201Cquality\u201D is puzzling me. It says, \u201Cquality performance measures and statistics:\u201D Now, as someone who plays around with ambiguity and words myself, does this mean \u201Cmeasures of performance quality and statistics\u201D, or does it mean \u201Cperformance measures that are quality performance measures, because they are high quality, and statistics of high quality\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EFrankly, if I was writing this piece of legislation, I would just clarify that a little, because in the phrase \u201Cquality performance measures\u201D, that adjective \u201Cquality\u201D could apply to the \u201Cperformance measures\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287ae38e3f3c84a319a041d65b0f78618\u0022\u003EHon Chris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f05ae2fc7c564e5b90b11d86c7bde393\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, the Minister gets it. I knew that the Minister would get the particular little wrinkle there, but I want to hear his response on this. And if he can work in a pun or two, that would be interesting. I think there is a simple solution there, and perhaps I might actually put it in an Amendment Paper, but I have to write it very quickly, of course, but \u201Cstatistics and quality performance measures\u201D or\u2014[Bell rung]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf05502fe53f478ab5ac191ea9a740fe\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair! Mr Chair!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bfcf83618e94fe0897660e8ef54640f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, I have one more point, and it will be brief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291ec99a81fb24208953185fcb264b14f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: One more point. Hon Deborah Russell, you may continue while the Minister the Hon Simeon Brown settles down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022404404\u0022 data-id=\u0022b70f4dec4cc6481ea0320ccf8b25194b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022404404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b70f4dec4cc6481ea0320ccf8b25194b\u0022\u003E Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I will. I\u2019ll leave that \u201Cquality performance measures and statistics\u201D alone now. I do want to go to just one other subclause in clause\u00A037. That\u2019s subclause (5), and it says, \u201CA determination may \u2026 (a) require disclosed information, \u2026 to be verified by statutory declaration:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022404404\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s quite interesting. That\u2019s quite a high level of affirming that information is correct. I guess it\u2019s a little bit akin to having audited financial statements or so on. It\u2019s presumably something which the Commerce Commission uses reasonably regularly, saying that some information has to be verified by a statutory declaration. That caught my eye, and I wondered why it requires a statutory declaration for information that is to be disclosed by a water services entity. It seems like quite a high standard of verification, but I\u2019m sure there will be a reason for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022404404\u0022\u003ESo that is a series of questions around the actual content of the determinations, and I\u2019m sure that the Minister will have some answers for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002297e79df4c22c45b9a512e392d173e5f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297e79df4c22c45b9a512e392d173e5f4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just considering at the moment, all members that are standing up. I\u2019ve been watching this debate for some time. There will need to be some quite new information and new lines of questioning here. It has been going for some time, this Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00228bb90b58ed7f4d34b8252b5428bc4f7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bb90b58ed7f4d34b8252b5428bc4f7c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The new question that I put to the Minister in the chair previously is: should the Commerce Commission have these new powers introduced by clause 40? That was not answered by the Minister. The question is: given that the Government has said\u2014and we accept this on our side; it\u2019s not what we would have done\u2014that a regulator other than the new regulator which Labour have proposed was required and it\u2019s giving it new powers in clause 40, why isn\u2019t that regulator the Infrastructure Commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMr Chair, this is a brand new line of questions, which I was trying to get to with the Minister, because where the Government has proposed new powers, in clause 40, unlike powers which have been given to the Commerce Commission before, these are more like powers which would be appropriate with an infrastructure regulator. I gave the Minister the example of the regulated airports which do not fit within the Commerce Commission\u2019s model easily, and we have now 20 years to look back at how that has been applied by the Commerce Commission, and has been criticised and has been recently very roundly criticised by the two parties which are subject to that regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to give the Minister some context around this, because what is, essentially, being proposed here in clause 40 (d) to (f) are new powers for the commission to get an external consultant or an external body to tell the Commerce Commission what regulation is required. So instead of giving an infrastructure expert the power to regulate directly\u2014like the Infrastructure Commission\u2014the Commerce Commission is being granted powers here, particularly at (d)(ii) and (e)(ii), to ask a water services provider to get an engineer to tell the Commerce Commission what it needs to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m putting to the Minister here is: what advice has he received that the Commerce Commission is the right regulator here when he has other options? The Infrastructure Commission itself said, in its recent report about water services, that waste-water, water, and stormwater sectors should be reformed by, including, (a) implementing performance-based economic regulation and water quality regulation to ensure that water providers are incentivised to drive efficiency and deliver excellent customer service; and (b) ensure there is a clear link between the cost of providing water services and the prices that are charged to users. This is core business for the Infrastructure Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m asking here is: what has the Minister had, in terms of expert advice, about why the Commerce Commission is the better regulator here than that kind of body, which has been active in providing advice for the public about what sort of regulation is required? Particularly, I draw the committee\u2019s attention to the new powers at clause\u00A040(1)(f), where it provides for, in legislation, a requirement that a water services provider would ascertain the expert opinion of a third party, because that acknowledges that the Commerce Commission does not have this kind of advice-giving power in its core remit and would be dependent on infrastructure experts, because that is not what the Commerce Commission currently does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EJust in the time available to me, I\u2019d also like to raise a question around clause 35(8), which is related to that part in terms of the new powers of clause 40, because determinations made by the commission will be, essentially, secondary legislation. It\u2019s also an unusual power for the commission to have when it is giving determinations about the kinds of advice that it will receive. If you look at clause 35(2) and (3), that determination can also relate to all of the entities at once, which would be a more normal power under secondary legislation, or one particular entity, and that would be to elevate that opinion as if it were binding to one particular entity, and this is an unusual secondary legislative power. It might be compared, say, to the IRD\u2019s power to make binding recommendations, but those are not instruments of secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo I want the Minister to confirm for the committee that that\u2019s the intention here, which would be unusual, and whether he can provide us with some comfort about whether there are any other examples of regulators like the Commerce Commission having that kind of power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022d56ab93d4b6b41f389c9ca86aa381372\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d56ab93d4b6b41f389c9ca86aa381372\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll just make this really short, because the previous Minister has been very concise in terms of their responses. This is in relation to clause 35(2), specifically\u2014which hasn\u2019t been mentioned\u2014in relation to clause 37.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ELooking at \u201CThe Commission must consult interested parties\u201D, when we\u2019re looking at the content under clause 37 and we\u2019re looking at subclause (3)(f), \u201Cfinancial and non-financial performance measures\u201D\u2014and particularly non-financial performance measures\u2014could I just get clarification from the Minister that that means the interested party would also include members of the public? The reason I mention that is because non-financial measures specifically may affect or may be of interest to members of the public. To give a few examples: things like water quality, water security\u2014I\u2019m not an expert on this, but, potentially, stormwater drainage speed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo just a very short response from the Minister on whether interested parties would include the public. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00222689a44d73304e7b80f7e2b232c21842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222689a44d73304e7b80f7e2b232c21842\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, we have done a lot of work on this section. I do just want to draw to the Minister\u2019s attention one final sort of set of issues here and it\u2019s to do with the penalties that can be imposed. Now, they are quite significant if water services entities fail to supply the information that\u2019s required, and so on. We\u2019re talking up to $5 million. We\u2019ve already had quite a discussion about the extent to which water services entities perhaps\u2014well, we know that we\u2019re going to be looking for alternative sources of funding. These are not rich entities at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019m wondering, and it\u2019s something I\u2019ve had in mind ever since we started working through this bill, in terms of monitoring the public\u2019s knowledge of what is going on, we\u2019ve got the penalties that can be imposed by the Commerce Commission, but there\u2019s a whole lot of information that can be disclosed and that the commission can have a look at. If we look at clause 40(1)(b), the commission can investigate water services entities, including \u201C(i) how effectively and efficiently a provider of water services is delivering water services:\u201D, and so on. Now, what we\u2019ve already seen was the way that the Commerce Commission does a lot of work. We\u2019ve just seen with the banking report that\u2019s come out today, that a chunk of it is more or less, I suppose, what we\u2019d call a name and shame strategy. We\u2019re just revealing the practices that are going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI guess what I\u2019m interested in, Minister, is the extent to which we are relying on water services entities being held to account by the Commerce Commission. There\u2019s sort of been a sliding scale, if you like, of ways for which water services entities can be held to account, and whether the first level of a water service entity being held to account is based around information that is disclosed so that the public understand what is going on. Now, we know an issue right across the country is getting people to engage with local councils and understand what local councils are doing. Nevertheless, Minister, isn\u2019t this really part of what we\u2019re trying to do here\u2014is to get a little bit more clarity, a little bit more transparency, and a little bit more capacity for ordinary members of the public to shame a water service entity into doing its job properly? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1b1f285c8604e7da6ea160e1aca1e50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1b1f285c8604e7da6ea160e1aca1e50\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E A brief call for the Minister to close off that line of questioning around whether the Commerce Commission is the right regulator. I am disappointed that the Minister hasn\u2019t engaged with those points, but I want to ask him whether clause 40 is the clause which is intended to clarify the interface between water services entities and the developer finance water infrastructure provided under the Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act, which is an intent which has been stated around giving these extra powers to the Commerce Commission. Is that to be found in clause 40(1)(d) or (e)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe8372764f3a42dda60bed2ee697f4aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe8372764f3a42dda60bed2ee697f4aa\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s been a number of questions in relation to these things. The Hon Deborah Russell has been repeating the question around penalties that\u2019s already been addressed. Penalties represent an upper limit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to determinations being secondary legislation, I\u2019m advised this is consistent with the commissioner\u2019s powers in other regulated sectors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the member Arena Williams\u2019 question around the Commerce Commission, the Commerce Commission is well practised in using these tools and the Infrastructure Commission does not have the experience in economic regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question of clause 37(3)\u2014is it broad enough?\u2014this is a list similar to requirements under the Commerce Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022831dff3ffe774567a3bfb92ea215625b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022831dff3ffe774567a3bfb92ea215625b\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022081b1d52e6984c759ede09843a43f2e1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6d262b9db144dd69a8b98826d58b901\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6d262b9db144dd69a8b98826d58b901\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 65 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002280f2f25956624b56b71a8033c29edf70\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef43947110bc4d798a7b3a90b2a41b00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef43947110bc4d798a7b3a90b2a41b00\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s amendments to clause 8 set out on Amendment Paper 70 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220c0caaf4266643a991aaf5d28c8fa410\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b740aa2e5607484b8e5104f58e10d5eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b740aa2e5607484b8e5104f58e10d5eb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s amendments to clause 8A set out on Amendment Paper 66 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d109b2d6f3794a5880d38bc6bc56ff7b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002225cad82f82ba48c782898f0262e9e60b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225cad82f82ba48c782898f0262e9e60b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Rachel Boyack\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 11 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aec73acd91b34ae8b68d02f1a790c1b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002286212dc7cd184b83bb8b20fb0e621144\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286212dc7cd184b83bb8b20fb0e621144\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s amendments to clauses 11 and 13 set out on Amendment Paper 68 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b87a768d31524df4b1e6c7fe778002f5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c59f235889264a31a6af39a161abad5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c59f235889264a31a6af39a161abad5d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s amendment to clause 16 set out on Amendment Paper 67 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228caa43fe6fe44cd4aa30f98c48c1b9c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c3b1c5cf10e4f94875e697c920dd791\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002277d111cd8bea458ab662508a0f076af8\u0022\u003EPart 3  Establishing water services council-controlled organisations and joint local government arrangements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc79a38c565c49ebac6554e33601d94e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc79a38c565c49ebac6554e33601d94e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3. This is the debate on clauses 49 to 59, \u201CEstablishing water services council-controlled organisations and joint local government arrangements\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc9951bef43e4867b47b42e17619bb80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc9951bef43e4867b47b42e17619bb80\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The purpose of this part is to support councils in terms of setting up water service council-controlled organisations and joint local government arrangements as part of our Local Water Done Well approach. By supporting councils to set up joint organisations between councils, there\u2019s a faster consultation, a streamlined consultation process that\u2019s been put in place. It is about making that process easier and more efficient for local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00225995e298b7ed4cda84438ed44f864813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225995e298b7ed4cda84438ed44f864813\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister, the Hon Simeon Brown, for that brief but nevertheless useful introduction to this part. It\u2019s an interesting part because what it does, in some of the clauses, is set up alternative requirements for consultation. Now, there\u2019s a whole lot of consultation requirements embedded in the Local Government Act 2002, and they\u2019re designed to be there to make sure that local people do get a say in what\u2019s going on locally. They\u2019ve been around for a long time; they\u2019re pretty tried and tested. I guess local governments spend a lot of time consulting, and for good reason, but what this part does is actually set out alternative consultation and decision-making requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EPart of that is obviously because, where you\u2019ve got two or more existing local government entities joining together in order to provide a water services entity, that\u2019s going to have a different decision-making structure, and there are going to be needs to do that. But the interesting bit, to me, is the alternative consultation processes, and it begs the question: what is wrong with the existing consultation processes within local government? Why did there need to be an alternative process instead of just the standard process that local bodies are already well versed in using? What\u2019s the particular need either to shortcut it\u2014because I notice that in clause 52(2) a territorial authority is only required to take consultation once. It means that consultation is being reduced for the setting up of the water services entities. That\u2019s interesting, because that\u2019s a reduction in democratic participation, and we know that a lot of what this Government has talked about has been the need for bottom-up organisation, and it\u2019s been the need for localism\u2014for decisions to be taken at the most local level possible\u2014but this alternative consultation seems to run against that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019m taking it that there is good reason for doing it this way, but I think we owe it to the citizens of New Zealand and to the ratepayers of New Zealand, to those who will be having to manage the setting up of these water services entities, as to why democratic participation is being reduced. Not at this level. We\u2019ve had our democratic participation here, through the standard parliamentary processes and the select committee processes, shortish though they were, but they were still there. What also needs to happen\u2014because we are regulating for local government areas. Why is democratic participation being reduced at that level? It will certainly make things easier for local government entities, and it will make things easier as these water services entities are being set up, but is that appropriate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo I would like to hear from the Minister not just what this part of the bill does\u2014we know that\u2014I want to know why this bill has been set up in this fashion. I want to hear the Minister\u2019s reasons for going down this path of reducing democratic accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0ccc9727646455ea2da1d6a023f16ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0ccc9727646455ea2da1d6a023f16ad\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The member the Hon Dr Deborah Russell may wish to look at clause 52(3), which says, \u201CDespite subsection (2), a territorial authority may decide to undertake further consultation before making the decision.\u201D There is no limit. We\u2019re not putting any limits on what territorial authorities may wish to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6d0024927bf47aaa6ad899bd431aa24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6d0024927bf47aaa6ad899bd431aa24\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, that\u2019s a \u201Cmay\u201D\u2014that\u2019s a \u201Cmay\u201D\u2014and local government entities may well take that path, and they could engage in more consultation. The fact is that by saying consultation is only done once, it does reduce local participation. In fact, a local government entity could overrule what the people in the area that it administers want. They may want more than one round of consultation, but a local government entity could rely on clause 52(2) and say it\u2019s only required to do it once and just leave it at that. It does create a capacity here for democratic participation to be reduced, and to be reduced by local government entities. Saying that another clause has a \u201Cmay\u201D doesn\u2019t answer that question as to why reduce the capacity for democratic participation. I would really like the Minister to actually address that issue instead of just brushing it off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00226188e998ff294723aaceb7682e7f95e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226188e998ff294723aaceb7682e7f95e2\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In the previous part, I had a question for the Minister around the use of the Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act 2020 and the arrangement for the application of those funding and financing rules also apply to this part. In Part 3, the purpose, as the Minister has helpfully said, it sets up the decision-making requirements that will apply to territorial authorities when making decisions under this part, but I want to ask him whether it is this part which does not deal specifically with councils who are proposing to use the levy under the Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act 2020 and whether that, in fact, then means that an arrangement where they do propose to use it can be brought into this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m asking that question because there are specific references right throughout Part 3 of the Minister\u2019s bill before the committee today on the inserted words \u201Ca joint local government arrangement under section 137 of the [Local Government Act 2002]\u201D, and section 137 of the original Act specifically sets out a subsection\u2014it\u2019s subsection (4A)\u2014which says that \u201CAn arrangement entered into by a local government organisation is not a joint arrangement [if they are] proposing the use of a levy under the Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act 2020 to support the construction of eligible infrastructure:\u201D only for that reason. I want to ask him whether that is intended to also apply to Part 3 in his proposed bill, or whether it only applies to joint local government arrangements and so, therefore, not to water services council-controlled organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022177a50a335e440c3aedbf55110307706\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022177a50a335e440c3aedbf55110307706\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair; I appreciate that. My question to the Minister refers to Part 3, clause 58, the \u201CExemption from cost-effectiveness review\u201D. I found this really interesting, because, of course, what the Minister has said throughout is he claims that the rationale behind these changes is around cost-effectiveness. He has made many claims in justifying this approach, the most recent of which was made just the other day during the announcement around the changes to local government financing, increasing the debt caps. He\u2019s, basically, said that there does not need to be as much work done as was outlined by the Department of Internal Affairs in the previous modelling, which stated that it was up to $185 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI note that in the regulatory impact statement (RIS) for this, it outlines that some alternative modelling has been done, but for the purposes of the RIS, they are working on the basis of at least $120 billion, which, of course, was always the figure\u2014$120 billion up to $185 billion, which is interesting because, during the announcement for the funding of this, where they claimed that it was going to be more cost-effective, they were working on the basis in their claim that it would be significantly less than that. So there\u2019s a discrepancy there between the claims made in the announcement and the figures that the RIS is based on\u2014the figures provided by the department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, when you have serious questions around this, that they are making claims around cost-effectiveness based on an assumption that significantly lower levels of investment will be required, and yet this clause exempts councils from a cost-effectiveness review\u2014now, the Minister may stand up and he may say, \u201COh, well, they still can. They don\u2019t have to, but they still might.\u201D But what we\u2019ve already seen under the changes made by this Government is it\u2019s resulting in the potential for a perverse outcome. And if you look at M\u0101ori wards, it\u2019s the perfect example. It\u2019s very similar to what I fear may come from what\u2019s proposed in this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ECouncils all around the country are currently considering whether or not to hold a referendum on whether to keep M\u0101ori wards or whether to scrap them. I know from councils that I\u2019ve spoken to that their council actually, obviously, supported the idea of M\u0101ori wards, but now they are faced with the reality of voting for a referendum and, therefore, imposing a cost on their ratepayers, and so they\u2019re thinking about scrapping it altogether\u2014a perverse outcome. It\u2019s totally against the wishes of their community and totally against the views of the councillors, but because they simply can\u2019t afford it, they\u2019re thinking about getting rid of it. So why would a council voluntarily do something that will use resources and impose further work on their workers, on their officials, if they don\u2019t have to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI accept that I am anticipating that that is the Minister\u2019s response, but given it was a response to a pretty reasonable question from Dr Deborah Russell, I\u2019m anticipating that it would likely be that. Let\u2019s just assume that it\u2019s just not going to happen. Why would councils be exempt from a cost-effectiveness review when that is the entire rationale behind this proposal? Perhaps it\u2019s because, in doing so, it might reveal to those councils and the ratepayers that it is actually not all that cost-effective after all. I say that because, subsequent to the announcement that was made last week about financing changes, Standard \u0026amp; Poor\u2019s, the credit rating agency\u2014the agency which has assessed this work and assessed alternative proposals for water reform\u2014have said that this is likely going to lead to significant increases in the cost of borrowing, which is of course what we have been saying all along. And that goes to the claim of it being cost-effective, yet again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhen you have a bill here in front of us that the Government claims is going to be cheaper for ratepayers, have not provided any evidence to back that up\u2014they have claimed that there\u2019s going to be a need for significantly less levels of investment, which in itself is a flawed claim, because what they have based that claim on is that it is on council\u2019s long-term plans. The Minister knows that councils haven\u2019t accounted for the 30\u00A0years of upgrading and maintaining that is required and was the scope of the original assessment and rationale for water reform in the first place because long-term plans only go out 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThey also made the claim that their figures are more accurate because it was \u201Cbottom up\u201D. I think deliberately washing over the fact that the assessment that came to a figure of up to $185 billion was derived from the council\u2019s own numbers themselves, because they had already provided it. But they were required to do so over a 30-year period to give us an accurate assessment. Now, all of a sudden, they\u2019re only looking at figures that come from long-term plans, knowing full well that those figures are 10 years and will not give a true and accurate reflection moving forward. So, if you look at those two things and the fact that Standard \u0026amp; Poor\u2019s have cast serious doubt over affordability of councils, why on earth would the Minister then exempt councils from a cost-effectiveness review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, if you link that question to that which remains unanswered posed by Dr Deborah Russell around consultation, it\u2019s possible that ratepayers will be asked to consider something without the facts, and at one opportunity. It\u2019s possible, under the way that things are written here, that they consult at the start, they then go and carry on and talk to other councils. Yes, they may consult more\u2014they might not because of the additional costs that that would bring to the council\u2014and then, by not having a cost-effectiveness review, not give the people making the decisions or the people who have voted those people in the information that they need, and I want to know why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI suspect it\u2019s because the numbers don\u2019t add up. They know they don\u2019t add up. This is, ultimately, a political solution to an issue that they created. They want to wash their hands of it, hand it back to councils, and then when it inevitably turns sour, say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s their fault for not sorting themselves out.\u201D And I wonder if that\u2019s the reason why\u00A0councils are exempt from a cost-effectiveness review, when you consider that this is\u00A0a massive change to the way local government works, and for some weird reason they\u2019re exempt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00226f4c5b6f69c340b29fe59193f164928b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f4c5b6f69c340b29fe59193f164928b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I actually just want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention around the consultation. We still need to get some clarification from the Minister regarding clause 52(2) around \u201Cconsultation once\u201D and its relationship with subclause (3) around \u201Cmay decide to undertake further consultation\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, what I want to talk about, in the context of subclause (4), is when the territorial authority decides to take on the further consultation, I want to check with the Minister what is the rationale that a territorial authority doesn\u2019t need to consider consulting more than once? He says \u201Cmay\u201D, but then if it does decide to consult more than once, only then they have to consider subclause (4). I would assume it would be a natural and reasonable order for a territorial authority to first take into consideration what is considered in subclause (4) before deciding if the consultation is sufficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI particularly want to draw attention to what it says in subclause (4)(a), which is \u201Cthe requirement in section 78(1) of the [Local Government Act]\u201D, which is around the need and understanding of hearing from the community views. Section 78(1) of the Local Government Act states \u201CA local authority must, in the course of its decision-making process in relation to a matter, give consideration to the views and preferences of persons likely to be affected by, or to have an interest in, the matter.\u201D I would assume that that would have been the logical order first\u2014that they would consult and they would go, \u201COn balance, based on subclause (4), it\u2019s not sufficient. Let\u2019s consult again.\u201D As opposed to, \u201CWe\u2019ll consult once. We don\u2019t need to do it again, but if we do want to do it, let\u2019s consider have we thought about all of the views?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI also want to mention this in the context of the Amendment Paper 65 that has been put forward by the Minister, where the Minister has made changes to subclause (2) and has created two separate sections of that\u2014(2) and (2A). Now, (2A) is particularly interesting, where it says, \u201CA territorial authority that makes a decision described in subsection (1)(a)\u201D\u2014i.e., a water services council-controlled organisation\u2014\u201Cis not required to undertake any further consultation before making a decision described in subsection (1)(b).\u201D In terms of the wording, I also want to get clarification from the Minister that it is not to do with a water service council-controlled organisation transitioning into a joint local government arrangement under section 137 of the Local Government Act. Surely, as we see in clause\u00A054(1)(e), \u201Cif the proposal involves establishing, joining, or amending \u2026 or a joint local government arrangement\u201D that does require consultation because it\u2019s one of the required pieces of information for consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI want to get two clarifications from the Minister. One of them is what is the rationale to decide for a territorial authority to not decide to further consult in the context of clause 52(4), as opposed to consider clause 52(4) first before making a decision whether they need further consultation? Based on the Amendment Paper that the Minister has put forward, and this is Amendment Paper 65, changes to clause 52(2), and also specifically (2A), that it is not implying that a water services council-controlled organisation transitioning into joint control doesn\u2019t require any further consultation which would then contradict clause 54(1)(e)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00221591dad9f53642b0be3476e38683e4ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221591dad9f53642b0be3476e38683e4ce\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The questions in relation to consultation can be answered, as this clarifies that consultation is only required once. Councils are currently unsure about how much consultation is required\u2014the Local Government Act isn\u2019t clear about this. There are no specific requirements in the Local Government Act 2002 about how many times consultation must occur. Councils have discretion about this, and so this is a clarification. I think that answers most of the questions that have been asked in relation to consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s question in regards to the exemption to the cost-effectiveness review, the elements that would be requiring the cost-effectiveness review are being already undertaken as part of the water service delivery plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002209734011b5284d6186570cf795ec04a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209734011b5284d6186570cf795ec04a8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019d just like to thank the Minister for that answer, because that does really clarify why you only have that requirement to only do it once with the substantive reason behind it. That\u2019s very, very helpful, thank you, Minister, and I\u2019m sure that will help in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s an interesting thing about this bill in that two local entities, if you like, kind of have their own separate bits of the bill. Now, we\u2019ll be coming in due course to Part 4, which\u00A0deals with Watercare up in Auckland, and so, obviously, we\u2019ll discuss that in detail then. But the interesting thing is that in Part 3 of the bill we\u2019ve got clause 49A, which says that a reference to a territorial authority includes Greater Wellington Regional Council, and carrying on through the part there are references to Greater Wellington Regional Council and what looks like the making of special rules for Greater Wellington Regional Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, again, there\u2019ll be a good reason for that as to why that might not fit under the structure of just the other territorial authorities in the legislation. I think, for the benefit of Wellington ratepayers, for the benefit of the entities that don\u2019t have their own special rules, it would be good to hear from the Minister why there is this separate set of rules for Greater Wellington Regional Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002243451eccdace4ab8b8ea8bd77108d55a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243451eccdace4ab8b8ea8bd77108d55a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve answered this question in a previous part. Greater Wellington Regional Council is the only regional council which is a water supplier and so, therefore, is covered; all other regional councils are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ceb5bad62d6049c38a89c9be9526e19e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ceb5bad62d6049c38a89c9be9526e19e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. A couple of, really, clarification questions. The first one relates to this consultation discussion that we\u2019ve been having, and the Minister of Local Government has told us that the Local Government Act 2002 (LGA) is unclear as to how much balancing councils have to do with consultation, so the purpose of these changes are to make it clear that it only has to be once\u2014the mandatory is once only. I was wondering if the Minister is also thinking, then, of amending the LGA to make it clear for all consultations under that Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also wanted to go to back to clause 49, which is the purpose of the part, Part 3, \u201CEstablishing water services council-controlled organisations and joint local government arrangements\u201D. Amendment Paper (AP) 65 in the Minister\u2019s name, which my colleague referred to, amends clause 49. Basically, the main change seems to be that the wording in the bill, as we have it reported back from the Finance and Expenditure Committee, is that on consultation\u2014well, it says, \u201C(a) to set out alternative consultation and decision-making requirements that territorial authorities can use\u201D\u2014so that\u2019s a \u201Ccan\u201D. Then, in the AP, it changes the wording to specify \u201Cmay\u201D at clause 49(a)(i), and then \u201Cmust\u201D at paragraphs (ii) and (iii). So while the wording was less specific, less directive, in the version of the bill we\u2019ve got, it becomes clearer in the Amendment Paper. I\u2019m wondering if the Minister can comment on why that change is made\u2014and if it is, just to be very clear about when things must happen and when things may happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, another point, the Hon Kieran McAnulty was talking about clause 58 and the exemption from the cost-effectiveness review. The Minister\u2019s, in part, answered that question, but then we have, at clause 59, titled \u201CRepeal of section 58\u201D: \u201CSection 58 and this section are repealed on the date that is five years after the section comes into force.\u201D So my question is, really: is the intent of this that section 17A of the Local Government Act that requires that cost-benefit analysis\u2014does that then come into being, or is the idea that the new arrangements will be so far through by that stage that they won\u2019t need a review anyway? It\u2019s just pointless talking about reviews, because you imagine that all the different bodies will be established by that point. So the question there is around the purpose of clause 59 and why it repeals section 58, in that relationship to section 17A of the Local Government Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022edbf3701b9734283b950f8b044cf3447\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edbf3701b9734283b950f8b044cf3447\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. A simple question following on from my previous question to the Minister of Local Government, which I don\u2019t believe was answered. This question is: do the provisions that currently exist in the Local Government Act, section 137, still apply to the new entity\u2014well, the entities that would be otherwise covered by the Minister\u2019s proposals in Part 4 of this Act? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWith specific reference, I want him to answer for the committee whether a water entity that comes under these new provisions would still continue to be legally responsible for providing the water services and retain control over the following matters: (1) the pricing of water services; and (2) the development of policy related to water services. I\u2019m asking that specifically because it is set out in section 137 at subsection (4), and it doesn\u2019t appear that those protections necessarily give an effect in what he is proposing here, even though there is an inclusion right throughout his proposed legislation which creates a reference to that section 137. It does read as an either/or\u2014that either these entities will be subject to section 137 in the Local Government Act 2002 or they will be water services council-controlled organisations (WSCCOs) under this new part that he is proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to make sure that it\u2019s not his intention to exclude those WSCCOs, which are now provided for in his legislation, from those protections which were envisioned under the Local Government Act 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022500e5365071b4399850b5b0d5a5d8ee6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022500e5365071b4399850b5b0d5a5d8ee6\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. A pretty simple question\u2014I appreciated the Minister of Local Government\u2019s response, I just didn\u2019t hear the end of it. We\u2019ve had some issues with that mike before, and I just wonder if he wouldn\u2019t mind just repeating that answer to my question so that will inform my next responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022286eae4d50824f148925b9d149d90fae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022286eae4d50824f148925b9d149d90fae\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. While we wait for the Minister of Local Government\u2019s response, I also have quite a short question. This is to do with this whole section which provides alternative requirements which is stated in clause 50(1). I\u2019m kind of curious: it says it doesn\u2019t need to comply with the Local Government Act, but when we\u2019re looking at clause 54, on information required for consultation, in subclause (3), it talks about what is publicly available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI just want some clarification from the Minister that, when we\u2019re talking about public availability and the fact that this whole section provides a little carve-out, what is in the Local Government Act that inadvertently is no longer applicable to this section? The one example I can think of here, and the key example, is\u2014considering it isn\u2019t mentioned\u2014what is the requirement around the territorial authorities to give sufficient time to the community, and to the public, when it does use the alternative requirement for consultation? Without looking at anything in the Local Government Act 2002, there\u2019s nothing in clause 54 of this bill, or related clauses in Part 3, that gives any confidence to sufficient time given for the consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIf the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind, could he please identify a clause within Part 3 that will give the committee confidence that sufficient time will still need to be given for consultation, particularly as we mentioned that territorial authorities may only need to consult once. Which particular clause talks about duration of consultation? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002249549c53b0c745109f04d0974c188a98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249549c53b0c745109f04d0974c188a98\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E This section is about supporting councils to put in place these entities quickly. It is about ensuring there\u2019s a streamlined process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn reply to the Hon Rachel Brooking, she asked if the Local Government Act should be amended for all consultation\u2014well, the scope of this bill is on water services, and councils are looking to be able to move quickly. That\u2019s what this does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question about joint local government arrangements under section 137 of the Local Government Act 2002 and Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act, this part of the bill applies to joint local government arrangements relating to water services, and that is the scope, again, here, that we are dealing with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn answer to the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s question, which was in relation to clause 58, the matters that are covered in the cost-effectiveness review are also covered in the water service delivery plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00228ef141f8aaef4848aaaf24a0390787fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ef141f8aaef4848aaaf24a0390787fc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m now a little confused by two things the Minister has said. I had to press before I got an answer as to why territorial authorities were only required to take consultation once. Eventually, after pressing for an answer, I got the response that, in actual fact, some of the consultation requirements in the Local Government Act are unclear. All right, so this was intended to provide a bit of clarity. But in the response given just now about why we had some of these consultation arrangements, the Minister said it was in order to streamline the process for local government entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that is a somewhat different answer, so I just want the Minister to clarify\u2014streamlining enterprise: we\u2019re sort of paring it down, we\u2019re making it minimal, we\u2019re making it easy to get through, versus clarifying the requirements of the Local Government Act. I would like the Minister\u2014if he could, please\u2014just to reconcile those two explanations that he\u2019s given, because they do actually pull against each other slightly and I think we deserve a little better than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002231d63a3091ee483a857d22ba80675527\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231d63a3091ee483a857d22ba80675527\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Chair, thank you. I have a few questions for the Minister that do relate to clause 52, around consultation, and also clause 53. My colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell has indicated some surprise from the Minister\u2019s response around streamlining. I also heard the Minister\u2019s response to indicate that the reason as to why clause 52 was there was to enable things to happen quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, that might be so, but it is still important that local government\u2014which is reflective of all of our communities of interest and certainly in the mighty Manawat\u016B in Palmerston North\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b24bd30a74b14780b33a90fdb3ef33ab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Great town.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1221222ed5f4b3689e119f5a036e5db\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, sir. I\u2019m concerned about that and how that aligns with subclause (2) and (3). What we\u2019ve been hearing in this committee stage is that the Minister is saying, \u201CWell, there is actually only a requirement that councils would be required to undertake consultation once. However, subclause (3) does provide an option for further consultation.\u201D My question to the Minister is: if he is suggesting that the intent is around streamlining this process and enabling things to happen more quickly, does he foreshadow that, actually, subclause (3) is likely, then, to not be engaged by councils? Or is his desire that subclause (3) is not likely to be engaged because it would undermine either the streamlining aspect or, indeed, trying to move at haste?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI wonder whether the Minister has thought about\u2014when it comes to within clause\u00A052(2)\u2014just actually indicating why it can\u2019t just read then that the territorial authority is required to undertake consultation \u201Cat least\u201D once? If that was the case, then, actually, it still leaves the next subclause, (3), open to a territorial authority to engage. What we\u2019re hearing the Minister say to the committee is, \u201CActually, no, the purposes of these changes in this clause is to streamline and to make things happen quickly.\u201D Well, Minister, I\u2019d be interested to hear your thoughts on whether you\u2019re open to actually amending subclause (2) so that it indicates, actually, that, yes, the effect is still the same in that clause, but, actually, consultation would only happen at least once.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy second question is around subclause (4)(c), and this is with regard to the nature and significance of the decision. Now, those involved in local government will know that, from time to time, there is a special process that is engaged, and that is the special consultative process. That\u2019s really where there are significant decisions that are taken by our community decision makers. Such is the significance that there is, effectively, not an additional layer but an additional opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister: where in this process does the special consultative process sit? I note that there is reference to subclause (5) that indicates that\u2014it does reference the relevant council\u2019s significance and engagement policy, and councils are required to adopt those. But where does the special consultative process actually sit within this whole area of consultation? It might be that that aspect is, in essence, triggered every single time that there is a decision to be taken around the provision of water services. Certainly, in my experience around a council table for more than a decade, when it comes to the delivery and provision and access to water services and other key bits of infrastructure, that absolutely would meet the criteria for engagement of a special consultative process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, I know that there are aspects that lend itself to where a council may actually consult as part of a long-term plan process\u2014and, in those regards, you don\u2019t need to engage the special consultative process\u2014but my question is to the Minister: firstly, why can he not just amend subclause (2) so that it\u2019s actually just indicating that there needs to be consultation but it just needs to happen on \u201Cat least one\u201D occasion\u2014which leaves it open to a council to then turn its mind to any further consultation\u2014rather than actually saying, \u201CWell, you need to consult once.\u201D, but his view as Minister is that we need to streamline and quicken this process? That is not going to incentivise councils to turn their mind to subclause (3), which is the intent. I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s response to those two questions, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002238162ec823f94657b70b4f7e9d2f9c2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238162ec823f94657b70b4f7e9d2f9c2b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The point\u2019s been made a number of times around consultation. The legislation is very clear in relation to clarifying that the territorial authority must consult once, but they may decide to undertake further consultation. That is incredibly clear. That is the clarification that councils requested, and that is what is being provided in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2a9bd3e77864f53ba7c32081499e95c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2a9bd3e77864f53ba7c32081499e95c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa): \u003C/span\u003EThank you, Mr Chair. Well, here it is. I have asked the Minister twice to address questions, to allay the fears of members on this side of the House that his intention here is to make it easier and simpler for councils to privatise their water assets and sell them out of local body ownership without appropriate consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHe has answered the questions put by my colleagues, on consultation, but he has not addressed the second leg of his own part, clause 51, which says \u201Cdecision-making requirements\u201D. The decision-making requirements that he is proposing to change are set out in section 137 of the Local Government Act 2002, and, on those decision-making requirements, which I have asked him to tell New Zealanders that he is not changing, there are three important points here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EOne is that councils cannot create new entities under his legislation so that they are not legally responsible anymore for the provision of water services. Under his clause 51, councils can, if they join up with another council, propose that they are no longer responsible for the provision of water services for people in the area because the provisions in section 137 do not apply to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second one is that they are not required to retain control of water pricing, because, if they join up with a buddy down the road, they do not have to be subject to the provisions in section 137, where they must retain public rights to consult on and then be responsible for the pricing of water. So consumers have no guarantees that their councillors and their elected representatives or those that they appoint to council-controlled organisations (CCOs) will be accountable for the pricing of their water services going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe third most important protection set out in that section 137 of the Local Government Act is that currently councils who enter into these relationships are required to retain the ownership of the infrastructure assets that people in their cities and their regions have built up over generations. People back 100 years ago were paying their local council rates to own these water infrastructure assets and there is no requirement under his legislation that they would be retained in council ownership. If you join up with a buddy down the road, you can sell them off, because the provisions under section 137 will not apply to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a really important point for the Minister to explain, and I have put it to him that the provisions under section 137 read currently like an either/or scenario, and I\u2019d like that\u2014because he has added in the ability for joint local government arrangements to be read as if, in his new legislation, they were CCOs. But we know in this Chamber that CCOs have an added layer of protection. They must act in accordance with the wishes of the governing body. They are accountable to locally elected councillors. They are accountable to the people who allow them to govern their water assets. Under this kind of arrangement, it is easier, even with a sped-up consultative process that the Minister has been answering on, to make decisions which require local people to accept that their water infrastructure assets that they have built up over generations will be sold off if they join one of these special arrangements between councils. I would like the Minister\u2019s answers on that. He has not answered three questions now on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00223ad8bf56dddf42d7888e6be634c2bf4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ad8bf56dddf42d7888e6be634c2bf4f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government): \u003C/span\u003EI find it ironic that the Opposition has become the defender of wanting to maintain ownership, and welcome them to the party, because that is exactly where the Government is at. That is what this Government is delivering is actually restoring council ownership. Welcome back into the tent. We thank you that you have finally rejected the position that you\u2019ve taken for the last six years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of clause 51, the \u201CAlternative requirement \u2026 (1) This section applies if a territorial authority is deciding whether or not to establish, join, or amend (a) a water services council-controlled organisation; or (b) a joint local government arrangement under section 137 \u2026 (2) In the course of that decision-making process, the territorial authority (a) must identify both of the following 2 options (i) remaining with the existing approach for delivering water services; and (ii) joining, forming, or amending (as the case may be) the [water services council-controlled organisation] or the joint local government arrangement\u201D. This bill doesn\u2019t affect what is provided in section 137 of the Local Government Act\u2014that continues, unaffected and unaltered. This is about the consultation requirements, not in relation to the requirements in section 137.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d659900f51524fbda0a69cbf5b32f20d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d659900f51524fbda0a69cbf5b32f20d\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Can I invite the Minister of Local Government to the earlier question that I did pose around the special consultative process and how that relates to matters. I\u2019d be obliged if he was able to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI did signal that I had a question in relation to clause 53, and that\u2019s around the \u201CAlternative requirement: consultation on amendment to [a] long-term plan\u201D. As I\u2019m sure we all know, when a long-term plan is going through a consultation process, it carries a little bit more weight in terms of what it can and can\u2019t do. However, when I read through the suggested change that\u2019s come through from the Finance and Expenditure Committee in that first subclause, it talks about the amendment to a long-term plan for the purpose of establishing, joining, or amending, or for a joint local government arrangement under section 137 of the Local Government Act (LGA), which the Minister himself has just cited. If that is the case, then \u201Cthe authority is not required to consult on the amendment if\u201D\u2014and then we move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, my question is: is it possible for a council or an authority to consult, for example, on the establishment of a council-controlled organisation but, through that process, land somewhere else, such as a preference for a joint local government arrangement under section 137? The way that the clause is currently worded, it could be possible for a council to consult in one area if it chooses not to consult in a broad term but actually land in an area there where it may not have consulted. When I read this clause, that is quite permissive, and it wouldn\u2019t require any further consideration of a further form of consultation under subclause (1)(a).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen you look at paragraph (b), Minister, it says that, actually, a council could do that if it was satisfied that the community has a good understanding of the implications of the proposal. Now, if what was being consulted on as a proposal was different to the outcome that the council actually landed on, is it not that that clause then doesn\u2019t require any further consultation that might follow? And then, following on, that, actually, it\u2019s satisfied that it understands its community\u2019s views on the proposal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EEarlier, there has been reference to section 78(1) of the LGA. Now, that is contained specifically in clause 52(4)(a) of this bill. It is referenced there because the council must be satisfied that section 78(1) of the LGA has been met in terms of deciding whether or not to follow any further consultation. That is not referenced when it comes to clause 53(1)(c); it simply states that the council or the authority needs to be \u201Csatisfied that it understands its community\u2019s views on the proposal.\u201D So there is an inconsistency here between the two clauses. One is saying that the council needs to turn its mind to section 78(1) under the LGA; clause 53 is saying, well, it doesn\u2019t need to do that\u2014it simply needs to be satisfied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: why is there an inconsistency between clauses 52 and 53, where section 78(1) of the LGA is engaged in one but it\u2019s not engaged in the other? I think that alongside the suggestion of the possibility of a council consulting on one particular proposal but landing somewhere else, perhaps if the form of consultation is broad, I can understand how that could be fine, but in a circumstance where the council might consult on establishing or joining or amending a council-controlled organisation, as opposed to joining the joint arrangement, I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts\u2014well, an answer on both of those, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d69f353949044d75bb84b629f7756d38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d69f353949044d75bb84b629f7756d38\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E There have been a number of questions in regards to consultation, many of which I have already answered. In relation to the question around special consultative procedures, the special consultative procedure is not required under provisions in the bill. Under the Local Government Act, there are only a few occasions when the special consultative procedure must be used. It is usually up to councils to decide how to consult, using the principles of consultation in section 82 of the Local Government Act 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00224779bf80bf054dd7b549d6a184385f7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224779bf80bf054dd7b549d6a184385f7d\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022d71fa46da11140868e7c6d7617125519\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d71fa46da11140868e7c6d7617125519\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I have to say that the Minister\u2019s response to the question from Arena Williams was pretty disappointing. Instead of actually allaying the fears that not just this side of the Chamber has but many New Zealanders have around what protections are in place to prevent the privatisation of water services assets, he decided to make a glib political comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s get straight to the point. What protections are there in place here? If a council-controlled organisation or alternative arrangement is established and they get into financial difficulty, what is stopping them from selling them off? It is a legitimate fear and it is a fair question. If there are protections in place and if this Government was serious about preventing that happening, it should be pretty easy for the Minister to stand up and address that. If you look at what was in place before this Government repealed it, that was modelled on what was happening in Scotland, which has protections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EMany of the things that this Government is doing, they\u2019ve signalled that they wish to emulate what is happening in England\u2014like housing, for example, with housing associations. We know that that was a disaster and we know that many of the social houses were sold off in England under that model. We also know that, in England, many of their water services were privatised and it has been an absolute disaster for that country and the communities that it services. Either the work hasn\u2019t been done or the charges have been unaffordable, and, of course, that is the thing that we are trying to avoid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt should be pretty simple. The Minister should be able to just get up and reassure the committee and the people of New Zealand that there are protections here that would prevent them. What I hope he won\u2019t do is stand up and say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s a matter for the councils.\u201D, because quite often in many of the questions that we have posed to this Minister at various committee stages that revolved around this, that has been the response or he\u2019s just chosen not to answer. He\u2019s just sat down and stayed down and thought, \u201COh well, eventually time will run out.\u201D He proved to be correct and he hasn\u2019t had to answer those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI hope that he takes this one seriously and doesn\u2019t try and follow what he did with Arena Williams\u2019 question, because there will be a lot of people that would be concerned if there aren\u2019t protections in place. We\u2019ve heard the finance Minister stand up today and yet again hint that they\u2019re going to sell Kiwibank. Well, is this any different?  Of course, it\u2019s not actually good enough when the Minister is in the Chamber talking to the bill that\u2019s in front of us now to say, \u201COh, well, that would be a matter for the councils.\u201D when he could address it and sort it out in this bill. So that\u2019s my response to that which he gave to Arena Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EMy next comment is in regard to the response that he gave to me and my question around clause 58. I appreciate that he answered again. I think it was a mix of the mike and what appears to be my rapidly deteriorating hearing\u2014I\u2019ll have to get that sorted out\u2014but we got there eventually. Now, it was interesting that he indicated that councils will be required to do so as part of their delivery plans, but what I found interesting in here\u2014that\u2019s outlined in clause 58\u2014is that it gives a few options as to what would trigger this exemption: \u201Cdeciding whether or not to establish, join, or amend\u201D\u2014so just as they are; \u201Cwhether or not to establish, join, or amend a joint local government arrangement under section 137\u201D; or \u201Chas [already] established, joined, or amended\u201D\u2014there are two options there. So deciding whether to or not\u2014they might; they might not. They might stay where they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EObviously, that\u2019ll be outlined in the plan, but we can all see how this might work. They originally do an assessment, and with the uncertainties around the finances here, there have been credit rating agencies casting doubt over it. There\u2019s serious doubt over their assumptions around the level of work. If councils are working on that basis and they come to a conclusion and that\u2019s included in the delivery plan, but then further light is shone on the situation and further information comes out, they\u2019ve already done that work. They\u2019ve already satisfied that, but they\u2019re exempt from a cost-effectiveness review, and so I think that needs to be clarified. I know my colleague Rachel Brooking mentioned it, but I don\u2019t think it was addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019ve got clause 59. Clause 59 says that all that stuff that we\u2019ve just talked about, \u201CDon\u2019t worry about it. In five years, it\u2019s all good.\u201D Well, if it\u2019s all good in five years, why not now? I don\u2019t quite get it. Why is there an exemption now because it\u2019s included in the delivery plans, but not later, when new information might come out, when circumstances might change, when the leadership of the council and those that are elected to council to assess things and make decisions on behalf of their communities might actually take a different view? You\u2019ve got two scenarios there. You\u2019ve got one where the situation has changed and it looks like, if it\u2019s after five years\u2014or even under section 58\u2014they\u2019ve complied; they don\u2019t have to do another one. Or the situation hasn\u2019t changed but they\u2019ve got a new council with a differing view. They don\u2019t have to do a cost-effectiveness review there, either. There are a few questions here. It just doesn\u2019t quite add up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2a896856be743b69b2f74640c4c3a17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2a896856be743b69b2f74640c4c3a17\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The answer to the member\u2019s question around privatisation is that there are protections in place in several sections of the Local Government Act that will continue to apply unaffected. This part of the bill, though, that we are debating today here is about consultation and decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002201c183da801e41d3904ddabd5d469df4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201c183da801e41d3904ddabd5d469df4\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014sorry, it\u2019s quite noisy, so I couldn\u2019t hear, either. I\u2019m just really inviting the Minister to answer the questions that have been asked. I note that he answered my rhetorical question before about changing the Local Government Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere are two very simple questions to answer, and that is\u2014as the Hon Kieran McAnulty has just referred to\u2014why is clause 59 there and why is this repeal of section 58 needed? Is it a simple temporal issue that in five years\u2019 time, everything will be done, or not, and what happens? Does that mean that councils can\u2019t amend those agreements after five years? A simple question: why is clause 59 there, repealing what will be section 58? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe other question was about the purpose of this part and the amendments that are made in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 65. There are many other amendments in that Amendment Paper that just change words here and there, and it\u2019s difficult for everybody to go through to determine what they mean. But I was asking and inviting the Minister for a simple explanation of what those amendments are for, and if it is, indeed, a clarification of when and where consultation is mandatory and when it is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1d3403f6b7847b6abffac50824cb1ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1d3403f6b7847b6abffac50824cb1ef\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab794a4e290d47fe8c86feec80287d9d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002272dfc16dfe274a55bb3fad18adf9f9a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272dfc16dfe274a55bb3fad18adf9f9a1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 49 in Amendment Paper 65 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226d1a6309429b45ec991cfee893b49427\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220c0b3baa604e4f71a8d38d0d099b0034\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c0b3baa604e4f71a8d38d0d099b0034\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 65 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002278fdf26536f743049c34fbd89dd51417\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224964840a8d3044f8b5e3a5242c727ed0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3293f17978b41a58f61fc371ebef574\u0022\u003EPart 4  Watercare Services Limited \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022822d2c280d9740abb1b766bb6d42dbca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022822d2c280d9740abb1b766bb6d42dbca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 4. This is the debate on clauses 59A to 98, \u201CWatercare Services Limited\u201D. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002261fdf63debec4785a40fc38fd5f2adeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261fdf63debec4785a40fc38fd5f2adeb\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The purpose of this part is to ensure the financial separation of Watercare and Auckland Council, to enable Watercare to be able to provide water services to Auckland in a financially sustainable way. This has been negotiated as part of the deal announced in May between the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a08b6381a3847e4ba96f88e7567a530\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. We just can\u2019t quite hear the Minister, because of the mike. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d247b0c45b84714b1b6bdcb5661f6a2\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. I apologise, this has become a recurring theme in relation to this microphone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022327f358314fd416684dec054b377e817\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: For once, we want to hear you and we can\u2019t!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c279bba0350a4639a9a357ee59789b6a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I know, I know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6917677202247838b34cd9c62f42ee0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Could somebody who controls the mike turn his volume up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bcf96c27de94cd5a6e410a8944b54f2\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s unfortunate. I will attempt to speak with my question time voice again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis part was part of the negotiation between Auckland Council and the Government in relation to the Local Water Done Well deal, announced in May, between the mayor and the Prime Minister. It relates to a number of elements of that plan in relation to financial separation, putting in place a Crown monitor, a charter, and in relation to the financial separation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002225d4a909117a4931b41ae32c683974ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225d4a909117a4931b41ae32c683974ec\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Starting at the start of Part 4, is clause 59A, \u201CPurposes of this Part\u201D. We read that they are \u201C(a) to promote the long-term benefit of consumers\u201D, etc. What I\u2019m interested in asking the Minister about is, at clause 59A(2)(c), this comment that it \u201Cis limited in its ability to extract excessive profits.\u201D This is to do with \u201C(2) \u2026 promoting outcomes that are consistent with outcomes produced in competitive markets such that Watercare \u2026 (c) is limited in its ability to extract excessive profits.\u201D What I\u2019m interested in\u2014and I\u2019ll come to it in another point as well\u2014is how this relates to stormwater, because, of course, the purpose of this part, in clause 59A(1)(a), is \u201Cto promote the long-term benefit of consumers of water services\u201D. As we know, that definition of \u201Cwater services\u201D includes stormwater. Does this limit \u201Cin its ability to extract excessive profits\u201D apply to stormwater, and, if so, how? How does that work? That\u2019s what I\u2019m interested in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019ve got, over the page, still on clause 59A, that \u201C(3) This Part relates only to delivering the purpose of this Act under section 3(2)(e).\u201D, which is the section about providing a financially sustainable model for Auckland. That makes sense, but then we go to clause 59B, which is the \u201CApplication of this Part\u201D, and it says, \u201CThis Part applies to water services provided by Watercare in circumstances if there is\u201D\u2014and these are the words I\u2019m interested in, \u201Cif there is\u201D; I presume it means that if there is not, then this part does not apply, which seems a little bit odd. I mean, it is all to do with competition, but if we go back to the purposes of the part, it did seem to be about the long-term benefit of consumers. Clause 59B is saying that it only applies if there is \u201C(a) little or no competition in providing those services; and (b) little or no likelihood of a substantial increase in the level of competition.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019d really like some clarification from the Minister about the breadth of this part of the bill. Is it only supposed to be where there is little or no competition? Presumably, again, that would always be around stormwater. I can\u2019t imagine a circumstance where there\u2019d be competition for stormwater, but I\u2019m happy to hear an explanation of how I might be wrong on that and should be more imaginative\u2014or if, in fact, that\u2019s a mistake, and the part applies to water services generally by Watercare and it\u2019s not limited to those areas where there\u2019s no competition. As we\u2019ve heard, the purpose of the part in clause 59A is to promote the long-term benefit of consumers and water services, and then, at subclause\u00A0(3) there, we\u2019ve got that reference back to the start of the bill, at what will be section 3(2)(e), which is the specific provision around Watercare, which I think is what the Minister was referring to when he was saying that there was this deal done in May with Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy final question, for now, is: given the Minister\u2019s statements about this as the deal for Auckland, what happens to Northland? Is there any ability for Northland to enter this arrangement or not? Of course, we all know that Northland has a number of councils with very small ratepayer bases that have had huge problems, historically, with water treatment in particular. I am interested in the Minister\u2019s answers on that, and across\u2014really, when answering, it would be very helpful to know what services are being talked about when we\u2019re talking about drinking water, when we\u2019re talking about waste water, and when we\u2019re talking about stormwater. The way this is written, it really seems to be focused on drinking water that you\u2019re charging for water usage\u2014you\u2019ve got your water meters in there. And that\u2019s what already happens, is my understanding, with Watercare\u2014that people are charged for their water use. But \u201Cwater services\u201D is defined to be much broader than just the drinking water. Drinking water\u2019s very important\u2014I don\u2019t mean \u201Cjust\u201D in any derogatory way\u2014but so is waste water and so is stormwater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00222c71a0e2d6bd407bbcfb7f3abbdbe1e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c71a0e2d6bd407bbcfb7f3abbdbe1e2\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014a confined set of questions to the Minister on clause 62A(1) and (2). There will be a number of issues to discuss in the Watercare charter, but I want to just offer the Minister an opportunity to comment on proposed amendments to this section here. As he has said, this is an arrangement that has been reached by his Government and the Auckland Council. But the issue here is that the powers belong to the secretary to prepare the Watercare charter, and not to Aucklanders. I know that he is committed, as Minister, to delivering localism under this plan; in fact, he used his call in answer to my question to remind me of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIf he\u2019s going to remind this committee of his commitment to localism, is it then a mistake in clause 62A(1) that it\u2019s the secretary preparing the Watercare charter, and, at clause 62A(2), that it\u2019s consultation with Auckland Council rather than development by Auckland Council? Should clause 62A not read, \u201CAuckland Council to prepare the Watercare charter\u201D, and clause 62A(2)(a) read that Auckland Council, Watercare, and Taumata Arowai would develop, under the commission\u2019s regulation, the draft charter? Those words would do what he has said he would do, which is restore localism in this way and protect local ownership of those assets and local provision of local services. There are flow-on effects of the secretary preparing the charter here, for a number of things, which then are given effect to by that clause 62A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EGiven that that\u2019s the new provision which he\u2019s introduced, I want him to be able to comment to this committee on that particular section now. I guess the question to him is: would it be appropriate for Auckland Council to develop that charter and to have the power to do so under this part, given that Auckland Council is the decision maker up until this point and could continue to be the decision maker about the values and about the protections that are in place under his legislation that he has proposed? Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022033d58a080aa44ca8c7d295a04716735\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022033d58a080aa44ca8c7d295a04716735\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for their questions. What happens to Northland? Part 4 deals with services for Watercare in the Auckland region\u2014it does not apply to Northland\u2014but it does not prevent Auckland Council from entering into joint arrangements with other councils if they wish. How does it apply to stormwater? Auckland Council will continue to retain stormwater. The arrangement set out in Part 4 is mutually beneficial for both Auckland Council and Watercare, and, ultimately, consumers, because it enables them both to borrow independently of each other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the issue in clauses 59A and 59B, these clauses are here because, ultimately, Watercare is a monopoly provider and so this is about clarifying that they are a monopoly provider. Of course, then the point of having a Crown monitor and in terms of having a charter is to ensure that there are consumer protections in place to protect consumers and to ensure that, as it says in the purpose section, clause 59A(1)(c), \u201CWatercare manages its operations efficiently with a view to keeping the overall costs of delivering water services at the minimum levels consistent with the effective conduct of its undertakings and the maintenance of the long-term integrity of its assets.\u201D That is what those clauses are to do with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question asked by Arena Williams, this is a point that was discussed between the Government and the Crown. In relation to the preparation of the charter, it was agreed that the secretary would prepare it, but that would, obviously, be done in consultation with Auckland Council. That is, ultimately, due to the fact that the arrangement here needs to ensure that the financial separation which is articulated works to the benefit of both the Crown and the council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e26b190fa82d420c90491505be371a1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e26b190fa82d420c90491505be371a1d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The committee will resume at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.57 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002201fe7291ee4d4a8dbed429c1dd4a3002\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201fe7291ee4d4a8dbed429c1dd4a3002\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, members, just before the dinner break, when the committee adjourned for dinner, we were on Part 4. This is the debate on\u00A0clauses\u00A059A to 98, \u201CWatercare Services Limited\u201D. The question is still that Part 4 stand\u00A0part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe3722e891264219a1315e623a748694\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe3722e891264219a1315e623a748694\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. For Part 4, there are a number of things we would like to speak on, but I want to start by discussing clauses 61 and 62, which are around Crown monitors. We have seen a similar layout and format previously, under clauses 21 and 24, but in this case there are different elements, compared to previous clauses where similar phrasing has appeared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first question that we have is a question that my colleague Francisco Hernandez asked previously when we were discussing clauses 21 and 24: when a Crown monitor in this particular case is appointed, what are some of the criteria that the Minister will be looking for when he comes to the appointment of the Crown monitor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would be particularly interested in one of the possibilities for a Crown monitor, which is in clause 60A, when it is an individual. I think there might be\u2014and other people may feel free to speak on this\u2014some sorts of guarantee or consistency when we are looking at clause 60(b) and (c), around a Crown entity or a company named in Schedule 4A of the Public Finance Act, but when it is an individual who is being appointed, what are some of the criteria for that appointment, as alluded to in clause 61? In terms of clause\u00A062, in terms of the role of a Crown monitor\u2014a similar thing to what we\u2019re seeing here, although we\u2019re talking about a monitoring function\u2014what are some of the criteria when it comes to ensuring that an individual meets the requirement when they\u2019re being appointed to that? So the first question is around criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second question I have for the Minister is around clause 74, and, again, it\u2019s to do with the Crown monitor\u2014in this case, in terms of the Crown monitor\u2019s expenses. In clauses 21(2)(da) and 24(2)(da) previously, it was very specific. When you\u2019re looking at recovering remuneration expenses from a Crown facilitator or a Crown water services specialist, it specifically mentions a fees framework; however, we\u2019re not seeing that particular fees framework being suggested in clause 74. So I want to know from the Minister why there is no fees framework that is being used in clause 74 when it comes to the expenses that are recoverable from Watercare for the usage of a Crown monitor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAgain\u2014correct me if I\u2019m wrong\u2014is the reason why a fees framework isn\u2019t being used purely on the basis that we\u2019re looking at the financial separation between Auckland Council and Watercare? But then, again, previously when we were looking at the fees framework that is being used to recover other forms of Crown-appointed individuals, they use the Crown fees framework\u2014whereas, again, it\u2019s not really mentioned here. So I would really be interested to hear from the Minister why that fees framework isn\u2019t being used in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe two questions to the Minister are: the first one is around the criteria for appointing a Crown monitor, and the second one is in terms of the expenses incurred by the Crown monitor. Why is there no fees framework? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002215d0a16f2d4643bba468e629af16b6b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215d0a16f2d4643bba468e629af16b6b0\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019d really only just started on this part of the bill before the dinner break. I\u2019m aware you will have been watching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269c331a335dc451399725eb3a65652bf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I have. It\u2019s not a big part, though, I have to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167086db6ee6485f8010eaf4c2bae094\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: But it is a very significant part. And it\u2019s a very significant part because it concerns the water services for a third of the population of the country and the biggest city in the country. It concerns quite a unique structure in the country around Watercare Services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI think we need to understand, from the Minister, the nature of the deal that has been struck with Auckland Council, because we know that a special deal was struck with Auckland Council. Auckland-based as I am, I think it\u2019s important for people in the rest of the country to understand why Watercare is getting some special treatment here. I think there are some particularly important issues around what is to be done with water in Northland. Northland has been left isolated by this treatment for Watercare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb778e56ca6748628c990103c07d0177\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I believe I heard, when I was listening earlier, the question come up about Northland and the Minister in the chair at the time did answer\u00A0that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d26c57c81e64f499461cedc3efb35f3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: It wasn\u2019t a particularly satisfactory answer, Madam Chair, I take it, but as I was saying, we\u2019ve got all these sets of issues that matter in this part of the bill. What I am particularly concerned about is\u2014it\u2019s right up in the purposes part of the bill, and it\u2019s in clause 59A(2)(b). We want to promote outcomes that would be similar to those in competitive markets so that Watercare \u201Cshares with consumers the benefits of efficiency gains in supplying water services, including through lower prices;\u201D. However, interestingly, in the advice that was given to the Minister around this bill and Auckland Council, there was a finding from Standard \u0026amp; Poor\u2019s that, in fact, the debt-servicing costs for Watercare would go up under this arrangement and that, in fact, the cost to run Watercare would increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, this was reported, obviously, in the advice of the Minister, but it was also reported\u2014I think I read it in The Post\u2014in July. It was an article by Thomas Manch. It\u2019s well recorded that one of the impacts is that, in fact, some of the costs associated with Watercare are going to increase under this arrangement. In actual fact, we know that water rates in Auckland will actually go up\u2014I think the projection is by about 8 percent. I\u2019ve just lost that detail. So it is quite interesting, then, that this particular part of this bill around Watercare Services says that one of the objectives is to share \u201Cwith consumers the benefits of efficiency gains\u201D, including sharing those benefits \u201Cthrough lower prices\u201D. Yet we know the costs associated with Watercare are going to go up. I don\u2019t understand how the arrangements that the Minister is putting in place can possibly achieve this part of the purpose, and I would like the Minister to speak to the costs that are going to be incurred by Watercare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESome of those costs are quite substantial. Now, we\u2019ve had a major project going on in Auckland for as long as I\u2019ve lived there\u2014the construction of the central interceptor, a huge underground project to improve the waste-water and the stormwater discharge so that when it rains, we do not get faeces in the harbours anymore. In terms of providing water services that are quality, we know that the population of Auckland is on the increase, and we know that there is increasing pressure on the water infrastructure services. I want to understand how, in the long term, this arrangement is going to ensure that one-third of the country\u2014the 1.5 million of us projected to grow to 2 million of us\u2014who live in Auckland can be sure that this arrangement will guarantee us water of the quality we want and we deserve, and that we get the waste-water disposal in a way that does not pollute our harbours. How is this arrangement going to be any better? So I want to understand that from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis is speaking, really, to these two purpose parts of the bill. How does this serve ordinary people in Auckland, who want to know, when they turn on the tap, that the water is safe to drink; who want to know, when it rains, that their harbours will not be polluted; and who want to know that they are going to get water services of the quality they deserve? I\u2019m challenging the Minister to move and tell us how this serves Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002240f4401153dc44e68ebb874429e74478\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240f4401153dc44e68ebb874429e74478\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To answer Deborah Russell\u2019s questions about why Watercare is getting special treatment, I think that they were quite quick off the blocks, so their proposed arrangement is expected to deliver lower prices than would have otherwise been the case prior to the deal being struck. Auckland Council was proposing to increase water charges by 25.8\u00A0percent from 1 July. With the financial separation, the price increase will be around about 7.2 percent, and future charges are also expected to be lower than they would have been. It is a substantial decrease in what was expected, from 25.8 percent down to 7.2\u00A0percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EGoing to the previous questions about \u201CWhen a monitor is appointed, what are the criteria?\u201D, the Crown monitor will require, as you would expect, a range of skills, expertise, and experience in, for example, the regulation of a monopoly business, and will have familiarity with the water industry and the economic and financial skills which you might expect of a monitor. So we\u2019re anticipating that that sort of criteria would be applied in the appointment process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWith regard to the fees framework that was mentioned for the Crown facilitator and Crown water services specialist, that is based on arrangements under Part 10 of the Local Government Act. The Crown facilitator and Crown water services specialist are appointed by the Minister in a similar manner to how Crown managers or other assistance and intervention roles are, as in Part 10 of the Local Government Act. I hope that covers the questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022233311f75679465ca578267322157dc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022233311f75679465ca578267322157dc3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to call the Hon David Parker, but what I want to hear from here on in\u2014because we have been on this bill for a long time; this is a smallish part\u2014I want to hear questions rather than speeches, so I know that a skilled previous Minister will be able to home in on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002289371a5d7ccc46d28d6f9fe8354601f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289371a5d7ccc46d28d6f9fe8354601f8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I hope so. Thank you, Madam Chair. The history of the regulation of monopolies in the water space is an illustration of why you actually need it. Theoretically, if you have a community-owned monopoly, you would think the incentives for excessive profit-taking are not as strong as if you have a private sector owner of a monopoly. But you can still have the problem of under-investment by the monopoly, and we\u2019ve seen that up and down the country in the water and sewage space for a long space, which is why we have the problem in New Zealand of poor water quality delivered by some of our councils and inadequate treatment of their sewage. So I accept that history in New Zealand shows we need a regulatory model around the monopoly services that councils provide for water and sewage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy question, though, is: what should be the pricing model that we apply to that monopoly? There\u2019s been quite a long-time controversy\u2014or not so much controversy but divided views within the economist communities in New Zealand as to whether we\u2019ve got the right regulatory oversight model and pricing model for our monopolies, whether it\u2019s water, like this case; sewage; electricity transmission; or some of the other monopolies. And there\u2019s a very capable economist\u2014Geoff Bertram\u2014who points out that we run a different regulatory model for monopolies in New Zealand than they do in the United States. In New Zealand, we tend to try and value the overall asset base and give a fair return on the overall asset base, with some incentive for new investment. In the United States, they tend to give a greater incentive to the next investment, because you need the next investment in the new piece of infrastructure. So they\u2019ll allow a high rate of return on the new investment, but they don\u2019t increase the value of the existing asset base by inflation, they, effectively, only allow a decent rate of return on that historic cost. So they incentivise the new investment very strongly, but they don\u2019t allow the old assets to be constantly revalued upwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy question of the Minister in the chair, Hon Penny Simmonds, is whether, in these arrangements that we are setting for the oversight of the revenue model, which, of course, is associated with the services that are to be supplied by Watercare, we are leaving open policy space for that debate to continue in the future. I, for one, think that the experience in New Zealand suggests that our under-investment in infrastructure might suggest that it is worthy for New Zealand to have the policy space to be considering whether we should be reconfiguring the incentives based on the pricing mechanisms that apply, or the oversight mechanisms that apply, to these providers of monopoly services, so that we really incentivise the new investments that we need, but we don\u2019t unnecessarily lift the value of the asset base and inflate the rate of return that is given on the historic investments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EJust to be clear, again, my question of the Minister is: do we have the policy space in this regulatory framework to allow both of those options going forward, or are we, effectively, putting in place a regulatory regime that entrenches the status quo model that we\u2019ve seen in New Zealand, which doesn\u2019t take the same approach as in America?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00221d3a0d11a7fc4668a33028fbecf5df97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d3a0d11a7fc4668a33028fbecf5df97\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002290d1354acd45428385041c60e823d53e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290d1354acd45428385041c60e823d53e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from Camilla Belich, who has been vigorously trying to get a question. But I really would ask that we come pretty close to honing in on the questions now, because we\u2019ve had quite a bit of time on some of these. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022766fa77aa262406f9e285269ca4a07f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022766fa77aa262406f9e285269ca4a07f2\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour): \u003C/span\u003EThank you very much for the call, Madam Chair. As an Auckland-based MP, I am really pleased to be able to have a call on the Watercare section of this bill. I do have a number of questions which I don\u2019t think have been addressed yet by the Minister\u2014and I just note that for the purposes of this section, the Minister for Auckland has been replaced by the Minister for Invercargill. But that\u2019s an aside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe questions I have are in relation to the charter for Watercare. The charter for Watercare is set out in quite a bit of detail in this bill and it forms quite a big part of this bill. In clause 62A, it states that the secretary\u2014which is the Secretary for the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014must prepare a charter for Watercare. The question I have for the Minister is: we\u2019ve heard a lot of rhetoric around this bill making sure that local services and local people are in control of local affairs, how does that work with this proposal for the Secretary of the Department of Internal Affairs to create this new charter for Watercare? It\u2019s quite detailed on this. I do note that it also outlines that there should be consultation with other groups that are located in Auckland, but the final decision does rest with the secretary. I just wanted to know: has the Minister considered putting more local control into this particular part in relation to the charter, which I think is quite important? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn relation to the charter, I just had a question around\u2014and I did have a bit of a research; I\u2019m not on the select committee that was considering this bill\u2014to try and see if there was an existing charter that it was replacing. I could see that Watercare had a promise that they made that they\u2019ve outlined on their website. I wanted to ask the Minister the intersection between the Watercare promise, which is, essentially, as far as I can ascertain, to treat water, to provide safe drinking water, to not allow pollution. Now, that promise, as a resident of Auckland, I can tell you, is sometimes not upheld by Watercare. A group I\u2019ve been working with for quite a period of time in Hobson Bay, Hapua Thrive\u2014there\u2019s a huge amount of sewage going into the harbour there. It\u2019s very difficult for the residents there. There\u2019s a significant need for additional infrastructure in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI wanted to know, with the focus on Watercare and with this\u2014in the charter, there\u2019s a lot of requirements for Watercare to meet certain objectives. What I wanted to know is can the Minister guarantee that under these changes, the people\u2014like the people of Hapua Thrive who live near Hobson Bay\u2014will they be able to, or can the Minister make some kind of commitment that these new provisions around Watercare will actually produce better results for them in terms of the outgoing sewage into the harbour that they can smell on their walks, that makes it difficult to let their dog off a lead, that means that they can\u2019t enjoy going kayaking in the Waitemat\u0101?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to address that, but also just to go back to my initial question: can she let us know about the charter and exactly the local elements of the charter and how this will actually ensure local control of local affairs? I think there are a lot of people in Auckland who will find it unusual to have a fully council-owned organisation like Watercare having a piece of extremely detailed legislation in relation to its performance. They\u2019re almost like key performance indicators in this section of the bill, and how is that actually going to deliver better water quality for Aucklanders? I do think that there are some important questions, and I see the Minister is taking some advice, so I hope that she\u2019s in a position to be able to answer those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022488bb253d56541b6884bc7b0ce100d99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022488bb253d56541b6884bc7b0ce100d99\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just waiting for a moment. The Minister\u2019s taking some advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u002255a44179c1914efca7c74d34f43b807e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255a44179c1914efca7c74d34f43b807e\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a87790741975412095a83600ac83c05e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f758f97f1baf4005905c9433a1a9b631\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f758f97f1baf4005905c9433a1a9b631\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Amendment Paper 65 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002255143f43430c46fb89eec1b3d211ca80\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b9fb2c2c03c64e7f94562d2c50c0e105\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1f62573b36f4500b545e1b091289e83\u0022\u003EPart 5  Amendments to Water Services Act 2021 and consequential amendments \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226f48d453bc6a4b048063ae844c5e098b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f48d453bc6a4b048063ae844c5e098b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 5. This is the debate on clauses 100 to 103, \u201CAmendments to Water Services Act 2021 and consequential amendments\u201D, and Schedule 2. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022be4c269503404870abdf56b301083bb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be4c269503404870abdf56b301083bb4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I know something about the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, and I can\u2019t understand this provision. The National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, essentially, says that, as a country, we should be setting some targets for our water bodies that are degraded that are science-based, and that we should then, over a long period of time, head towards achieving those targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThose targets are set by regional councils in consultation with their communities, having regard to various attributes that have to be taken into account\u2014like turbidity, the E. coli concentrations, nutrient concentrations that if you get too much nutrient cause slime to grow in your rivers, and the like. I think the attributes are pretty much agreed across society. The rural communities were particularly concerned that we were going to have too tough a nutrient attribute, but we didn\u2019t go for a specific dissolved or inorganic nitrogen attribute, and there was considerable flexibility left in the instrument for regional councils to determine how they should, over time, improve the quality of degraded waterways. I thought that we as a country agreed that we should\u2014and being blessed as we are with such beautiful water resources\u2014look after them pretty well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, one of the overarching provisions in the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management is that, at a high level, the way in which you should be managing your water is to first look after the water body; and then the next priority is to attend to human needs, like sewage discharge or water tanks for drinking\u2014both of those are, obviously, human uses\u2014and then, thirdly, commercial uses. Now, none of these are absolutes. No one has been pretending that we\u2019re going to, all of a sudden, have absolutely pristine waterways, and it\u2019s not a trade-off between cost and cleanliness, particularly where you have a degraded waterway. But I don\u2019t understand. I would like the Minister of Local Government to explain to me why it is that there is the need for this change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat is wrong in the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, particularly in relation to the hierarchy of obligations, which is referred to in clause 101 of this bill, which inserts a new section 138(3A), which says, \u201CWhen making wastewater environmental performance standards under this section, Taumata Arowai must not have regard to the hierarchy of obligations in clause 1.3(5) of the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management.\u201D? I don\u2019t understand the driver for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t understand what the need is for that revocation of that principle, because my understanding, based on when I was the Minister, was that it wasn\u2019t something that would prevent councils from getting resource consents for what they currently do or want to do in the future. Yes, over time, if they are polluting a waterway, we want them not to make it worse. But there is no regulation that says there wasn\u2019t some flexibility as to how they improve things over time, or some unrealistic standard to which they were being\u2014and I do remember that there were other parties at the time, the M\u0101ori Party, with respect, I thought were unrealistic; they thought things should be cleaned up to a drinkable standard, which I thought was an impossible ideal, as much, though, as we would love that. But the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management didn\u2019t do that. I would like the Minister to explain to us why it is that this provision is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00228d0173ad0f3e451d9be55846216ab132\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d0173ad0f3e451d9be55846216ab132\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Penny Simmonds, in relation to Part 5, what is the political intent? It\u2019s a strange piece of drafting that says, \u201CWe\u2019re going to empower the Governor-General to strike out the provisions in the National Policy Statement (NPS) for Freshwater Management. OK, we\u2019re opening the door to getting rid of this and we\u2019re going to replace it with a new NPS.\u201D, but what\u2019s the intent? The part is completely silent on that. I think that members of this House and the public are entitled to ask, \u201CWhat is the intent?\u201D, because the part doesn\u2019t explain at all what the motivation is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe reason I ask that is I have a very real interest in my electorate of Te Atat\u016B in West Auckland. The waterway that runs right through the heart of urban West Auckland is Te Wai-o-Pareira / Henderson Creek. For decades and decades, it\u2019s been a recreational playground: people fish in it, they swim in it, they boat in it, they row, they water ski. The real problem is that Te Atat\u016B Peninsula, which the waterway runs alongside, is one of the very weak points of the waste-water system in Auckland\u2014which sort of reminds us of the previous part. It has been under-invested in for decades, and every single time we have any significant rain event, waste water flows into the creek, and anybody who gets into that creek gets sick. You cannot fish there anymore; it\u2019s a health hazard. The community feel bitterly upset about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ENow, I would like to know: what is the intent of this part, and what will the effect be on an urban waterway like this that\u2019s had decades and decades of degradation? Currently, our community relies on the knowledge that under the existing NPS, that waterway will be cleaned up, infrastructure investments will be made, pollution will be stopped and eliminated, and eventually that waterway will be returned to a swimmable state. Are we to put that hope aside? What is the intent of Part 5?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002275e6a29458464668806e03681fa1176e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275e6a29458464668806e03681fa1176e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question to the Minister is very direct towards te Taumata Arowai. We\u2019ve seen throughout the debate in this bill the role that te Taumata Arowai plays in the ability to contribute towards the charter. Then all of a sudden, we have this provision here that to cast your eye over it for the first time seems to all of a sudden not value the role that te Taumata Arowai might be able to play in the way that we manage waste water, moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI think of the complexities of T\u0101maki-makau-rau, of Auckland, and the need and the challenge and the struggle to continually find a M\u0101ori voice in all of the planning that relates to T\u0101maki-makau-rau, to Auckland. Now, I was going to raise the matter of the Independent M\u0101ori Statutory Board and whether or not, actually, through some of the provisions in earlier parts\u2014it says \u201CAuckland Council\u201D, so I\u2019d like to make the assumption that that includes the Independent M\u0101ori Statutory Board, which is a very well-connected, well-represented group for the Auckland view towards what we might do with respect to Watercare to waste-water management and everything else that relates to those hap\u016B, those tribes, and those who consider themselves to have customary rights proven through settlement to the many waterways in T\u0101maki-makau-rau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt then comes back to the question that my colleague the Hon David Parker has asked, which is: why are we doing this? What it would seem to be doing is (1) unnecessary in the first instance; but (2) making very clear that te Taumata Arowai, while respected throughout much of the other work to do with water management and right across this country\u2014te Taumata Arowai, a fantastic group, well represented, good smarts on that group; not T\u0101maki-makau-rau - or Auckland-specific, however\u2014is all of a sudden not relevant with respect to Part 5. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s a very direct question about the role and purpose of te Taumata Arowai. Is it being diminished simply through this particular part, through this particular clause? If that is the case, then why have we wasted time throughout this entire bill talking about te Taumata Arowai when it\u2019s clear that the skill set and what they offer with respect to water management in this country is really important and te Taumata Arowai work hard there? But that in turn raises the question about being Auckland-specific, which is about T\u0101maki-makau-rau and about the water management in Auckland as a wider grouping, which is why I raise the question about the Independent M\u0101ori Statutory Board and whether or not they will continue to find a voice in all of the planning that\u2019s done around water wider across T\u0101maki-makau-rau\u2014a very direct question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00220fa5f6a4bbce4a359acadb06290bf75d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fa5f6a4bbce4a359acadb06290bf75d\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much. I\u2019ll address some of the points that have been made, and I acknowledge the comments from the Hon David Parker about the length of time that the aspirations that we all have for improvement in our waterways\u2014but acknowledging that it is going to take some time to occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe hierarchy of obligations is something that we were very clear about in our campaigning. We saw the hierarchy being an obstacle to economically viable solutions for both councils and for industries, and there needed to be a balancing of the obligations rather than the hierarchy of obligations that was there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWe know the impact that, for example, reconsenting from being able to have treated waste water go into waterways and then having it go on to land is significant. I know that the Minister of Local Government has frequently referred to the Palmerston North situation, where their consenting has been looked at. In their 2021 long-term plan, it was going to be $390 million, and it has escalated to over $650 million in 2024 due to that requirement to discharge to land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EJust last week, I was speaking with the Mayor of Invercargill, and they are going through this very issue with Bluff waste-water treatment. The cost increase, again, was significant. To change from having treated water discharged into water and having to look to discharge it on to land was going to increase the costs severalfold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s really the regulations that are going to be possible for the councils, and to achieve, over time, those improvements without causing the economic harm that would have been caused by leaving that hierarchy in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00229e919f9a1cd848d89d05c803e6419a6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e919f9a1cd848d89d05c803e6419a6b\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014I appreciate it. I have an amendment to propose to clause 101(3A), which currently says\u2014and others have spoken to it somewhat\u2014\u201CWhen making wastewater environmental performance standards under this section, Taumata Arowai must not have regard to the hierarchy of obligations\u201D. Now, the amendment proposes to remove that section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ECan I just reflect, I just did a document search on the entire legislation for the word \u201Csafe\u201D. And the number of times the word \u201Csafe\u201D appears in the entire document is zero. You\u2019d think that safe would be a useful word to associate with drinking water. I searched \u201Csafety\u201D, and that word appears twice in the entire document, only in a clause about legal action in the Watercare section. It seems very pointed, following from your answer to the last question, Minister, that this legislation makes a real point of removing references to water safety, and makes sure that in consideration of that, the authority responsible for water safety, Taumata Arowai, is told that it must not have regard to the hierarchy of obligations. What is the view of this in terms of the Public Health Communication Centre\u2014the public health experts\u2014on the removal of the hierarchy from the consideration of wastewater management? \u201CThe hierarchy of obligations is an essential addition across policies relating to water as it gives sufficient legal weight to the protection of people\u2019s drinking water sources.\u201D This is the Public Health Communication Centre\u2019s submission on this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, it should be logical to us that management processing reticulation of sewage is one of the most fundamental developments in urban infrastructure to benefit human health. Imagine cities some time ago when there was no sewage reticulation system. Imagine what the state of health was. Well, you don\u2019t have to imagine; you can look it up\u2014there\u2019s plenty of history about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244da93943b754e72a5d10fe07d3be536\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Typhoid and cholera.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280a7d1974569409094df078ad5d485e4\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233d6f5771ea041fea49c62a1e4b9e5d5\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Typhoid and cholera.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e822c05fba54cd9b46e109ce1a94845\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly: typhoid and cholera. So why, in regard to the managing of wastewater, would that vital hierarchy of human safety not be a worthwhile consideration? That\u2019s a very important question to be answered, and I don\u2019t think it has been answered. \u201CSufficient legal weight for the protection of drinking water has not previously existed in policy and because of this (and other system failures) NZ communities experience contaminated drinking water sources. Removing the hierarchy of obligations from Taumata Arowai\u2019s work (as proposed by the Bill) means deprioritising the safety and quality of people\u2019s drinking water and potentially increasing the risk of illness from polluted drinking\u00A0water.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThis amendment would allow Taumata Arowai to have regard\u2014that\u2019s all it has to do, have regard; remove the term \u201Cmust not\u201D from the legislation. How can that be anything but good for public health, for the health of our society, the health of our communities, and the health of our water? It must be a good thing. If, Minister, you are taking the advice of public health experts, surely this amendment would be one you would support. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00221a1ce0d7589c4dcab314b70f99a501a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a1ce0d7589c4dcab314b70f99a501a1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for this opportunity to speak. I\u2019m actually going to take the opposite angle to the previous questions about what is in clause 101 and this amendment of section 138. And then I\u2019m also interested in talking on the \u201CKing Henry VIII\u201D clause as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from people, and we\u2019ve had an answer from the Minister about the hierarchy that you find in the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management. I\u2019ll make some comments about that in a minute, but my main point is: why was this inserted into this bill when Taumata Arowai, section 138, doesn\u2019t mention the Resource Management Act or any of the instruments under the Resource Management Act? We know that the national policy statement is a regulation made under the Resource Management Act. Taumata Arowai doesn\u2019t talk about the Resource Management Act at all or its instruments. Is this a proactive\u2014I\u2019m assuming, and this is what the question is to the Minister\u2014action to stop any future changes to the Taumata Arowai Act to have regard to the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management? I fundamentally don\u2019t understand why it\u2019s been included in this bill, given the framework of Taumata Arowai in the legislation that\u2019s been amended, the section 138. That makes no sense to me. I\u2019d really like an answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, of course, we have the Minister\u2019s response just before, talking about the hierarchy that is in the national policy statement\u2014and I acknowledge that the Minister in the chair is the Minister for the Environment\u2014and saying, to paraphrase her answer somewhat, that councils need to be able to discharge to water. I think that is the fundamental tenet of what the Government is trying to do here. They\u2019re trying to say it\u2019s very expensive if you discharge to land. And, normally, that is what iwis\u2019 preference is\u2014a discharge to land. It is also the thing that has much more environmental benefits. Normally\u2014I\u2019m talking in generalities here. If you discharge to land, it can be more expensive, particularly if you have old treatment stations that are just used to doing a bit of filtering and then discharging into the rivers\u2014this is for waste water, obviously. We want to change all the laws to make sure that councils can continue to discharge into rivers\u2014if that\u2019s what the Government means, then they can just say that. Surely, a better provision here would be \u201CWastewater environmental performance standards\u201D: \u201CCouncils do not have to discharge to land.\u201D If that is the nub, the crux, of the problem that the Government is interested in, why are they not saying that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAgain, we keep hearing that this National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management is the cause of all problems and that nobody can get consents. And, of course, sometimes I\u2019ve been lucky to sit on another select committee about a different bill where we\u2019ve heard many people say that, in fact, it hasn\u2019t been stopping consents, the way the hierarchy operates, because, of course, it all needs to be in the plans. The big issue, the big inefficiency issue, that\u2019s happening with water in this country at the moment is that councils are being told to delay those plans\u2014to not have the plans that can then permit activity so that people don\u2019t need resource consent. A lot of that is being done with a great disregard for the processes of this House and the processes of making regulations as well. You cannot make regulations by press releases, and we\u2019ve seen that happen around these national policy statements made under the Resource Management Act, both with freshwater in relation to the Otago Regional Council and also with what Minister Hoggard was trying to do with biodiversity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen we come to clause 102, which is the new section 138A, and this is to repeal provisions relating to the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management at some later point. And this is a \u201CKing Henry VIII\u201D clause. So we know, and I\u2019m sure other people will want to speak to this as well, that \u201CKing Henry VIII\u201D clauses are unusual. [Bell rung] Madam Chair, may I continue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f583e0b1ccf450d9b7e9a4c5ace1fb1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Can we come to the questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dff2734f181d412cb5cb63a8dd1675c5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, well, the question is: why on earth do we need a \u201CKing Henry VIII\u201D clause about a National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management that doesn\u2019t even apply to the Taumata Arowai Act? The question is: why do we have clause 101 here at all? It\u2019s completely unnecessary. Even if you put aside all of the politics and the disagreement about the national policy statement for freshwater, it doesn\u2019t need to be in here. But then, given it is in here, the justification for using the \u201CKing Henry VIII\u201D clause needs to be strong, and it just seems to be incredibly weak. I\u2019m asking the Minister what the justification is for using a \u201CKing Henry VIII\u201D clause in this situation when it appears entirely unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022b53032ec70844d04a87a09f7234be3e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b53032ec70844d04a87a09f7234be3e2\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have two areas of questions for the Minister which I don\u2019t believe have been covered. I\u2019m going to start with the second part first, really, as in chronological order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI have a question for the Minister around the intersection of the changes that are proposed in Schedule 2, Part 1\u2014which I understand of Part 5, which we are debating\u2014in relation to the changes to the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act. I\u2019m particularly interested in this as Labour\u2019s spokesperson on emergency management, and, obviously, the incredible importance that water infrastructure and fresh water have in our managing of emergencies\u2014so that\u2019s in Schedule 2, Part 1. Then, additionally, in Part 2, there are changes to the National Civil Defence Emergency Management Plan Order 2015. There are substantially more changes in relation to that particular plan, and I wanted to get from the Minister a bit of a reason as to why this formed a part of this particular bill, and what changes citizens of New Zealand would see as a result of that conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second question I had was around clause 102, which inserts new section 138A\u2014which I believe people have touched on, but I have a question in relation to that. That\u2019s in relation to the technical workings of this particular provision, and my question for the Minister is: is this a \u201CHenry\u00A0VIII\u201D clause; if so, what is the justification for using a clause of this nature in this bill? When usually it\u2019s good practice\u2014and I believe the Minister and I both sat on a Regulations Review Committee at various times in the last Parliament together. If she could reflect on the use of that particular instrument and why\u2014I assume that it\u2019s only in there because it\u2019s absolutely necessary if it is, in fact, one of those clauses\u2014we have to use this particular instrument when it\u2019s not usually desirable from a legislative drafting perspective. Those are my two sets of questions in relation to emergency management and that particular piece of legislative draft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00224454bea92d6f425fa9bcda45e46b5664\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224454bea92d6f425fa9bcda45e46b5664\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll go back to some of the questions that have been lining up here. If I can go back to Steve Abel\u2019s questions about \u201Csafe\u201D\u2014and I think it\u2019s really important that he understands that there is certainly no intent to take any provision away regarding the safety of drinking water\u2014Taumata Arowai will continue to regulate drinking water, including its safety, and it will also continue to have powers to set waste-water standards by taking into account public health. Removing the hierarchy will actually give more flexibility to them in this area. I think it is really important for us to be very clear that Taumata Arowai will continue to make waste-water standards under the Water Services Act. In terms of \u201Csafe\u201D not occurring in it, the legislation isn\u2019t replacing the legislation that sets out drinking-water standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI think there was a question from the Hon Rachel Brooking on the section in the Water Services Act relating to waste-water standards\u2014why the changes are required\u2014that don\u2019t mention the national policy statement. The Water Services Act requires Taumata Arowai to give effect to Te Mana o te Wai as part of all its functions. The definition of Te Mana o te Wai in section 14 links directly to the national policy statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c2571b9f764ae29185d1404e1198a4\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b9ceaf904de4eefbfec75295b3f1b65\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022930f45a048a2482d898f7ab9286e14a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022930f45a048a2482d898f7ab9286e14a0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call the Hon David Parker, and I\u2019m just going to ask for questions now, because I feel like we are starting to get quite repetitive on some of these things. I\u2019ll come back to you, Mr Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002214d06908db8d4248a5d9103878f5ec4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214d06908db8d4248a5d9103878f5ec4c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019ve heard from the Minister in the chair, the Hon Penny Simmonds, that the Government doesn\u2019t want Taumata Arowai to have to apply the hierarchy in the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, which is not absolute but, essentially, says: health of the river, human uses, and other commercial uses third in hierarchy. The Government doesn\u2019t want that to apply to Taumata Arowai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAm I correct, Minister, that, at the same time, the Government has another piece of legislation which says that that should not apply to people who are seeking resource consents under the Resource Management Act\u2014i.e., if one of these water services entities, whether it\u2019s Watercare or another council, applies for a resource consent to discharge to water? Am I correct, Minister, that in other legislation you\u2019re also removing the effect of the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, including the Te Mana o te Wai hierarchy of obligations for consents? If I\u2019m right, you\u2019re not just stripping this requirement out from Taumata Arowai, you\u2019re actually, effectively, saying that the councils that are considering applications by water services entities don\u2019t have to apply it either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022082ffc26a84b45a4b0ceb69d9b6e0108\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022082ffc26a84b45a4b0ceb69d9b6e0108\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be quite quick. Thank you so much to the Minister in the chair before for a number of the clarifications that she has provided. I think we are still waiting on her clarification around the use of the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause in this case, particularly around clause 102, because this has raised a number of concerns from the New Zealand Law Society, as well as our own Regulations Review Committee. But I wanted to ask the Minister, in addition to that, has the Minister considered a sunset clause to this? This is one of the things that usually is a way to curb some of the power that can be granted with a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause, having a sunset clause or a particular duration. That\u2019s my first question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question, which is also really discrete, is to do with clause 103, particularly in relation to Schedule 2. Now, in terms of Schedule 2, there is only one area I wanted to get some clarification from the Minister on, and that is the amendments to the Ombudsmen Act 1975, where it talks about \u201CCrown monitor appointed under section 60\u201D. I wanted to know from the Minister: in this case, why was only the Crown monitor appointed under clause 60 of the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Act mentioned, but not the Crown facilitator appointed under clause 21, nor the Crown water services specialist appointed under clause 24? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022740c1bf3e015467d80003ebe8da7f1c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022740c1bf3e015467d80003ebe8da7f1c2\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002298e55806ccd2491d88c2bf81ec2453e6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4057032467c427da818fd8bc2a4b38d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4057032467c427da818fd8bc2a4b38d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Amendment Paper 71 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002202314a69126545a9b64540940d7f4d69\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002213a2c462c6f64a2986ef13f04a4b663c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000620\u0022\u003EPart 5 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ea45ac4709a49ff8c0f5b4210e1a4db\u0022\u003ESchedule 1  Transitional, savings, and related provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002220ffc43c949b443782b7fe0305a4efc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220ffc43c949b443782b7fe0305a4efc5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Schedule 1. There is no debate on Schedule 1. The question is that Schedule 1 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220c6dca2614bd4f3192b086c582bfbe57\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000623\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3d69facea2d4a338e106ea6e5c48b7b\u0022\u003ESchedule 2  Consequential amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002252664663808f435596613bfd2015865d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252664663808f435596613bfd2015865d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Schedule 2\u2014also no debate. The question is that Schedule 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000626\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd7416dd725e4b6c8e92a8f4ca5b19d9\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220aab5a2d8cb748b984753d602465ee41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220aab5a2d8cb748b984753d602465ee41\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate: clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002245ab0510a1514817bb580df1bdf950f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245ab0510a1514817bb580df1bdf950f3\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The part of the debate that everyone looks forward to: the title and commencement debate. Now, I have a couple of questions for the Minister around both the title and commencement. I wondered: did the Minister consider changing the title of this Act in clause 1 to the \u201CCentral Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Act\u201D? The reason I ask that question is because, when we actually have been debating parts of the substantive part of the bill, we\u2019ve actually found that\u2014contrary to what you may think about this bill\u2014there is actually quite a lot of central government involvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOne of the examples of that is a section we were debating previously where the Secretary for the Department of Internal Affairs actually makes up, essentially, the charter for Watercare, meaning that there\u2019s much more central government control over water services than there is in, actually, local government. Actually, in that particular provision there\u2019s just consultation provisions with local government and actually nothing substantive to do with central government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI also wondered, in relation to the commencement: we have here what is quite a complicated commencement provision. We have a standard, what you would expect in the commencement provision, \u201Cthe day after Royal assent.\u201D Then we have another part of the bill that comes in on the \u201Crecommendation of the Minister.\u201D I wondered why, in fact, it was not possible to have a more certain date. It\u2019s always an objective to have certainty in legislation; it\u2019s important to make sure that it\u2019s clear for the people who this legislation will apply to, which has substantive repercussions for most of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThen we have additional provisions coming on 1 July 2025. Then also a provision that any other provision that\u2019s not come into force\u2014very unspecific. If the Minister could maybe answer in clause 2(3) what this catch-all provision is meant to cover, because it\u2019s not really specific in relation to this commencement provision. Then, lastly, we have a section which looks at the secondary legislation in relation to the commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I wondered: is there a simpler, better way\u2014according to the Minister\u2014to introduce this piece of legislation, rather than having four different time frames that people who are wanting to utilise this bill will have to look at in order to determine when things come into force? Also my question in relation to the title: does this truly reflect the nature of this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022611f669ca33d41b5ad98276c4171d6e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022611f669ca33d41b5ad98276c4171d6e2\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to ask the Minister if the words \u201Cpreliminary arrangements\u201D should be taken as meaning that there isn\u2019t actually a fuller plan. The reason I say that is summed up very well by Mayor Bryan Cadogan, who has advocated on this in my electorate of Taieri tirelessly, actually, over many months, showing what the burden will be on small councils. Because we know that the preliminary arrangement is around giving councils, council-controlled organisations, or community trusts the ability to borrow around five times their annual operating allowance, which is, effectively, about twice as much as they currently can. But the small councils in particular are up against their debt ceilings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBryan Cadogan summed it up by saying that making these arrangements and allowing councils to borrow this much money is a little bit like giving a drowning man a glass of water. Even if councils were to take the longest period which is allowable under the preliminary arrangement of 50 years, the interest payments are going to be absolutely massive. Under this bill, it doesn\u2019t really talk about the long-term plan of who will pay for that. Clearly, for a small council like Clutha, it\u2019s not going to be the residents\u2014there just isn\u2019t the rater base.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019ve been told in the Government\u2019s spin that, \u201COh, that\u2019s fine. Councils can amalgamate.\u201D Well, who wants to join with a small council like Clutha?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022065a4de514f84463943210a957711ce9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So can we have some questions about title and commencement, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cf4a1cd332d43d5b25d1f79e9d2f90c\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m interrogating is that these are preliminary arrangements, but should the title actually say, \u201CPreliminary Arrangements Bill While we Wait for a Full and Final Plan\u201D? Because, for the small councils\u2014and particularly Waitaki is in a similar situation where it has to decide whether it tries to amalgamate upwards or amalgamate downwards; and the requirements of Taumata Arowai might actually make it even more difficult for these small councils because when they borrow money, they must be able to have a proportionate, cost-effective, and efficient approach to ameliorate that burden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, my question to the Minister is the word \u201Cpreliminary\u201D, to me, when I read it, shows me that here is a piece of legislation that is a very, very short-term response. It certainly isn\u2019t an adequate response for small councils. Is there going to be a subsequent piece of legislation that is going to, basically, make this redundant? And is that subsequent piece of legislation going to have a real plan for the small councils such as the Clutha District Council in the electorate of Taieri? Or is there no plan? And if there is no plan, perhaps that should be reflected in the title of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00226c4916b160454043adbfc588e2e8a7e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c4916b160454043adbfc588e2e8a7e4\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Going back a little bit, and I notice that the Minister in the chair has changed from our Part 5 debate; and I realise, of course, that we are now on the title and commencement and that is what my question is going to be about. Of course, Part 5 changes the Water Services Act 2021, and we heard that that was because of section 14 of that Act, which is \u201CTe Mana o te Wai: meaning, application, effect\u201D and that says, \u201CWhen exercising or performing a function, power, or duty under this Act, a person must give effect to Te Mana o te Wai, to the extent that Te Mana o te Wai applies to the function, power, or duty.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy question is whether or not the Minister considered, rather than amending section 138A, I think, of that Act, if it would have been much simpler to amend the section 14 to say that it applies to the functions, powers, or duty, and the hierarchy does not apply to whatever it is that the Government wants to do? So my question is: should not the bill change its name to the \u201CWater Services Strange Te Mana o te Wai Amendment Act\u201D, rather than the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s one of my questions. I do think this question about preliminary\u2014it\u2019s a difficult word to say; too many \u201CRs\u201D in it for me. It\u2019s difficult when your name is Rachel! My colleague makes some good points about that and why it is necessary to be in the title of the bill, and when can we expect more of the changes as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe had a previous Minister in a previous part of the bill say that other announcements were made the other week. We\u2019ve heard about those, but we\u2019re not yet sure about the temporal nature of that, so another question is whether a temporal element has been considered for that title of the bill and whether that would be useful. And, of course, that could then relate to the commencement of the bill as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00226ee70ba24783425ba321736d316d2c4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ee70ba24783425ba321736d316d2c4b\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to propose an amendment to the title of the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. One of the substantial themes that we received in submissions from iwi M\u0101ori was a deep concern about the diminishment or removal of Te Mana o te Wai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe Iwi Chairs Forum is concerned about this reactive, piecemeal, incremental approach to policy development and implementation on issues of such fundamental importance to the health and wellbeing of both our communities and our waterbodies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENg\u0101 Waihua o Paerangi\u2014Ng\u0101ti Rangi\u2014expressed their concern that the undermining of Te Mana o te Wai was one of the primary characteristics that is observed by submitters\u2014and is thus something that is worth mentioning in the title\u2014\u201CTe Mana o Te Wai is a fundamental and hard-fought-for principle developed over many years and supported not only by iwi/hap\u016B but by many other stakeholders, including industry, farmers, councils, and environmental interests. \u2026 Te Mana o Te Wai refers to the vital importance of water to all of us. It is not about our ethnicity. It applies to us all equally. It is about managing water sensibly without destroying the integrity of the environment.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti T\u016Brangitukua Charitable Trust: \u201CWhile Te Mana o Te Wai is a concept that is derived from Te A\u014D Maori, its source in m\u0101tauranga does not preclude it from having universal application for all New Zealanders in terms of how we use and manage water.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EMy proposed amendment is that the bill be called \u201C(Te Mana o Te Wai Deprioritisation)\u201D\u2014that\u2019s something of an extension on the previous speaker, the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237eb3f25e02d4d1ab5de240fdba5f201\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CHonourable\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d1506425bb4b51bc01b63ddd1cc10c\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I did say \u201Cthe Hon Rachel Brooking\u201D\u2014I did, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b83e183162d4f93973ef5eeb2045d1d\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Give her a double \u201CHonourable\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c3f47d6ebba40028a4b5ca21f660176\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that will happen in due course\u2014perhaps in a couple of years or even sooner. I want to commend this amendment to the committee, and I look forward to you supporting it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00224ba1fcacd2a04d4692d9d68b07bbda17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ba1fcacd2a04d4692d9d68b07bbda17\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224a865fe63f874f6184de3f5722aa7b32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a865fe63f874f6184de3f5722aa7b32\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s amendment to clause 1 set out on Amendment Paper 72 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022166603d4440d44879581e3a3b9c5bd07\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e62daf5f4a6541b39f7aa2afaf0fdcc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e62daf5f4a6541b39f7aa2afaf0fdcc4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Lan Pham\u2019s amendment to clause 1 set out on Amendment Paper 73 is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002236a60ed3421b4e85a4589216a5a68520\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228847e60ab37642de8c21a3a2e7fba7ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228847e60ab37642de8c21a3a2e7fba7ed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 65 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022df1c03457ed5433bab249c2ccac2f43f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002276424b936a7e42d7b33dc3c43bbbc195\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000657\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220af68d2e440946ac89e6db8c5d45c18c\u0022\u003EResource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260908eb0a65449288f07de8da131cbb1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c97877def51f4a34808d6dad965aa334\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Part 7A of Resource Management Act 1991\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dba4633f1d3743bdbc034c85d0409830\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dba4633f1d3743bdbc034c85d0409830\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill. Members, we first come to Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clause 4, \u201CAmendments to Part\u00A07A of Resource Management Act 1991\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223667ad080d1f44d2bcd93036790ccde3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223667ad080d1f44d2bcd93036790ccde3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My first question to the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries relates to this rather unusual provision in this Draconian piece of legislation that says that on the rare occasions that a council might be so brave as to embark upon a review of a decades-old consent for use of a marine farm, they can\u2019t recover the costs of doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy question of the Minister, who is so old that he was in the office of Geoffrey Palmer when the Resource Management Act (RMA) was originally passed and so has intimate knowledge of the Resource Management Act more generally\u2014my question of the Minister, who will be aware that the Resource Management Act has always allowed for a charging regime to be imposed by regional councils for the use of marine space\u2014for example, if a regional council wants to charge for a boatshed or for the occupation of marine space for marine farming, my understanding, under the RMA, is that a regional council would be able to embark upon a charging regime for the private use of the public\u00A0space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo my question for the Minister is: having taken away the right of a council to charge for the costs of reviewing the terms of an occupation licence for aquaculture, is he also taking away the discretion of councils to have a charging regime for the occupation of marine space, which is currently allowed for under the Resource Management Act? And, if I\u2019m wrong that that right currently applies under the Resource Management, could he correct me as to my misapprehension?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00222fd120f3601c4a76ac5c6ad1ede80bb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fd120f3601c4a76ac5c6ad1ede80bb9\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. M\u0101l\u014D e lelei, Mr Chair. Thank you. I know this is the committee of the whole House stage, and I have a number of questions that I\u2019d like to pose to the Minister. It\u2019s certainly accepted that Part 1 is the substantive part with a number of suggested amendments to a number of clauses there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that was raised by submitters\u2014and I\u2019d just note that even with the reduced number of days that were available for select committee submissions, actually 13, over 1,000 submissions were received. First of all, there was a consistent theme around opposition to the bill, but that to one side, if that was not going to be accepted by the Government, then there were a number of suggestions around changing the time frame within which the coastal permits would be set down. There are a couple of Amendment Papers in my name that do seek to do exactly that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIf I can turn to new Subpart 1A\u2014and I apologise in advance, but as we work through each of these new sections, many of them are like alphabet sections\u2014new section 165ZFHA, inserted by clause 4, which comes down to the interpretation. I would like to ask the Minister whether he is satisfied, given the passage of time since he has considered this matter, that there is a view out there that, actually, a more appropriate term could be that of a 10-year period of extension that is automatic\u2014there\u2019s an Amendment Paper in my name that does reflect that; that\u2019s Amendment Paper 55\u2014or what was offered up, which was actually widely supported by the public in terms of submissions, which was a five-year period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, I know the Minister has previously indicated that the 20-year period is where it sits, but I think what\u2019s really important is justification for concerns around mitigating aspects that might need to be considered and whether a five-year or a 10-year period, which may be seen as a short-term or a medium-term sort of perspective, might be more appropriate. So I have a number of questions for most of these clauses. In the spirit of the committee stage, I\u2019ll leave it here and pick up once we get a response from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002294d03e3d738c4ce5a256b59d9d4b0969\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294d03e3d738c4ce5a256b59d9d4b0969\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My question follows on from my colleague the Hon David Parker, who raised the issue around local councils having to foot the bill if they wish to do a review of a coastal permit. In the select committee process, the majority of all councils that submitted on this piece of legislation were in opposition to this rollover of consents, regardless of environmental impacts or the ability for people to participate in the process and encourage a review. When it comes to councils having to foot the bill for this in particular, there were concerns raised around the cost of it. We know that there is a substantial cost to review these consents, and the unfairness of it having to be footed by, basically, the ratepayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like the Minister to help us understand why he feels that local ratepayers should have to foot the bill should councils wish to do a review of a consent, given that ratepayers already pay substantial amounts of money to councils for various other things. Why should ratepayers be charged for a consent review when, in fact, these farms are in the sea and in the ocean, which are, in my understanding, the commons where no one has specific ownership of that particular area? I would like the Minister to explain to us why he has decided that councils should have to foot the bill for any review of consents, whereby ratepayers will have to foot the bill for something that, in actual fact, they are not part of\u2014for example, a marine farm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not they who are potentially causing pollution, it is not they who are causing any issues, and yet, unfairly, they will have to be the ones that will ultimately pay for any review, thereby making it difficult for their councils, I think, to undertake reviews, because ratepayers will be up in arms if they think councils are spending their money on things that they don\u2019t think are fairly their cost. So I\u2019d like the Minister to explain to us what the thinking is behind that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d783ac14a05a412f958615641cdf38f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d783ac14a05a412f958615641cdf38f9\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to stand and help shepherd this overdue piece of legislation through the House. Of course, this piece of legislation points out that at a deeper level, we actually need an aquaculture bill. Sadly, I was unable to achieve everything I wanted in this bill, and I will now turn to the questions posed by the former Attorney-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, this is unashamedly a piece of legislation designed to generate more confidence and certainty in industry to create jobs and to boost economic earnings and export revenue. Yes, it will require the council to meet the costs on the rare occasion that they may find that there is a strong need to review the conditions of farms that had existed for decades, and the next 25 years will give the confidence to the owners of these farms and their permits that they can dedicate their scarce resources to actually achieving economic outcomes, rather than playing a type of roller derby with the local councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe council can conduct a review of the conditions, but no council is going to be allowed any longer to pursue their aberrant ways or, indeed, act on nimbyism, which has driven, sadly, an enormous amount of cost structure into this industry. It\u2019s a very good discipline that where the conditions must be reviewed, it has to be of such a threshold with such an egregious case that the councillors and the staff believe it\u2019s worthwhile on behalf of the community to dedicate community resources to address these particular conditions, and not be driven by the growing number of people who want to protect their property values and advocate for amenity values, which go straight into the capital and strengthen the capital value of the small number of New Zealanders that own properties at the beach who don\u2019t want to see aquaculture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAquaculture is an industry equally as important as the landscape and amenity values enjoyed by the small number of Marlborough bach owners who have had a very long and successful career at driving aquaculture out of the Marlborough Sounds, and I don\u2019t like that council, because they actually created the seabed and foreshore debacle. Whilst the law does enable it to happen, it ensures that they have to be genuinely serious concerns.  Now, there have been some remarks made that scientists and ecologists are concerned. Ecologists must not be allowed to interfere any longer in any indiscriminate, unreasonable way with the march of economic growth to get some jobs in the regions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn relation to why we are settling for a year of 2050, now, it is quite a long time: 25\u00A0years. Given that on 3 September 2024, I\u2019m going to be 65, it\u2019s highly unlikely that I\u2019ll see the full fruition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292daadc6b1b34f5e950210c89a0566ba\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t look like it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b87c18ca5a414567b3b48bd1fc861e36\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Who knows, who knows, who knows; young at heart, young at heart\u2014though it\u2019s highly likely that this will remain a contested area. But these are long-term capital investments, and resource management, in so far as industry exists within the marine environment, is about trade-offs. We can\u2019t allow a minority range of concerns to overwhelm the need for regions to boost and create and enlarge the economic footprint in their own neighbourhood to keep people employed and to keep the confidence in the community so that we don\u2019t see this onward drift of people away to Australia, or, indeed, the urban drift. That should provide a necessary understanding as to why the period of time to 2050 is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, the Hon David Parker raises a very good point: what is the return to the Crown or to the public for the occupation of what you might say is the commons\u2014i.e., private enterprises occupying either oceanic space in the future, or seabed and foreshore for the purposes of mussels and oysters? Sadly, that particular issue has been confused by the mission creep that we\u2019re seeing in the seabed and foreshore legislation. Hopefully, we will have time to address that oversight in the near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe41ce3dd97f4d33819badab329bcea8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe41ce3dd97f4d33819badab329bcea8\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. There is a situation we have here where we did receive substantial submissions from the Marlborough District Council, which the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries is so disdainful of; a council, I might add, which, in its region, manages 80 percent of the entire value of aquaculture in New Zealand and has 600\u00A0of the 1,200 farms in New Zealand. It\u2019s the overwhelming majority consenting authority for the wealth and value that is in marine farming, so it\u2019s strange that we can\u2019t pay some attention to their wisdom on it. I\u2019m sure that in the consideration of resource consents, all factors are taken into account, and that\u2019s as it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EOne amendment that I propose to you, which is a follow-on from my colleague\u2019s opposite\u2014or alongside, rather, is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022734b23921f4645e9b783e6ed9d08186d\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Same side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c06a59dfd2b94362ab6687c87790b912\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Same side\u2014colleague \u201CSame Side\u201D. One amendment that I propose to you is to make it a five-year extension. Now, that was the most commonly struck-upon number by submitters. It\u2019s still a very generous thing to have a free five-year extension. I will speak later to amendments that address the problem of giving extensions to farms that are deemed to be in inappropriate areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EAlso, the other amendment I\u2019d like to speak to\u2014that first one I spoke to was Amendment Paper 60; that\u2019s changing it from 20 years to five years in new section 165ZFHC of new Subpart 1A, inserted by clause 4. The other amendment I\u2019d like to speak to is regarding the director-general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a23a2cb18b264d5db2e3197643a0274f\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f38eb3d4cef64e18b490ecdd064e886a\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a5318184ba4f6bb3026b8f28b327a7\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: The Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6cbb0f861b645de92153922e90643aa\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: When a consent authority does deem it appropriate to review a consent, currently, there is a requirement, as this legislation has it, that they must get the approval of the director-general. Now, they should not have to get that approval. We also propose that that is an amendment so that if the consenting authority does determine that they\u2019re going to do a review, they don\u2019t have to get the director-general\u2019s approval\u2014that would be less top-down oriented in a central government and less telling the regions what to do. It\u2019s not localism by any stretch, this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWe propose replacing new section 165ZFHI(4), inserted by clause 4, with: \u201CA consent authority is entitled to recover the costs of a review undertaken under this subpart, including any costs arising from a request by the Director-General under section 165ZFHK(3) for information not held by the consent authority in its normal course of business.\u201D And, in Part 2, we propose inserting new clause 5AA, amending section 36: \u201CAfter 36(1A)(b): insert: (c) section 165ZFHI in relation to the review of conditions for a coastal permit extended under subpart 1A of Part 7A.\u201D That\u2019s Amendment Paper 58. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThat amendment would, again, mean that local communities are not paying for the cost of a reasonable review of a consent activity in their area. To my colleague\u2019s point: why is it that ratepayers should have to pay for the reasonable management and assessment and reviewing of consents in their area when, in fact, it is a commercial activity? And the cost of that commercial activity, the cost of its licence to operate, should reasonably be included in its costs. It should be something that that commercial activity pays for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhen we asked and put that question to most of the commercial players in the Primary Production Committee process, they also thought it was reasonable. No one could contest that they should rightly have to pay for the costs of a review of their consent or any of their consent processes. I invite the Minister to support that amendment. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0532d30ab64438eb81a18594164f326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0532d30ab64438eb81a18594164f326\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s disappointing to hear the Minister\u2019s response around the lack of support for the proposed time frames, including the one that Mr Abel has just referred to. That is disappointing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s actually also very disappointing to hear his disdain for Marlborough District Council. Perhaps he\u2019d like to have a conversation with his colleague Mr Arbuckle\u2014I mean Councillor Arbuckle, who still sits on that district council. That would be a very interesting caucus committee conversation, perhaps, wouldn\u2019t it? Maybe Mr Arbuckle may want to ask the Minister some questions around that, given he is representing the ratepayers of that council that the Minister has such disdain for. But, anyway, we\u2019ll see if that goes anywhere. Minister, I want to put to you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205ad4befab9340eabf7c96d96c032d74\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Not disdain. He just doesn\u2019t agree with everything they say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253f0874f9b7243c28b96cf3f811b03d7\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, feel free to take a call over that side. I\u2019m very interested to hear in what your contributions and questions might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister in terms of the conditions of new section 165ZFHC(3)(a)\u2014this relates to a change in a condition, and, Minister, you\u2019ve cited a process around where conditions may be sought to be changed or are up for review. I\u2019m interested in what an example would be of a change to one of those conditions that would be required as a consequence of extending the duration of the permit, because it seems that the extension action is the actual trigger that would bleed into what that change in condition would be. So, given that the trigger is in the bill, perhaps it would be helpful for the committee to just get an understanding of what one of those conditions might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll turn to 165ZFHD. I am going in some form of chronological order, albeit alphabetically. This is where there would be a requirement to update the nature of the extended coastal permit, and it\u2019s particularly around the duration aspect. Minister, there appear to be two options under new subsection (1)(a) when a decision is made that is a decision taken by way of the application that\u2019s lodged\u2014either the first decision to continue operating under the existing permit or the second to continue with an application. So my question is whether or not there is any thinking around the fact that if there is a continuation of an application that, effectively, is live whilst there is still a decision to be taken in relation to the existing permit. There will be cost implications associated with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EGiven the Minister\u2019s view that the councils should not be seeking to, effectively, cost-recover anything\u2014and there is an Amendment Paper in my name that would seek to change that, and I\u2019ll come to that in due course\u2014what consideration is there for cost implications but also in terms of notification to the relevant council or consent authority of that decision to either continue to operate under the existing conditions of the permit or for the council to continue to process the application? How was that notification to take place? Elsewhere through this bill, it refers to written notification. Is that form of the notification going to continue to be silent? Will it be something that is set via annual regulations? The consistency aspect, I think, is quite important. I\u2019ll leave the Minister with those sets of questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00224e8d088f1617437db425db98985a708c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e8d088f1617437db425db98985a708c\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green): \u003C/span\u003EThank you, Mr Chair. I have a number of questions for the Minister Shane Jones, but I would kind of like to start by talking about new section 165ZHFC in the context of \u201CExtension of coastal permits for marine farms\u201D, specifically new subsection (1), in the sense that I understand the intention of this bill is to extend such coastal permits to 2050. However, I wanted to ask the Minister whether he has considered some of the options that have been put forward in the regulatory impact statement, because I understand there are a lot of people\u2014according to the Minister\u2019s response previously\u2014that the Minister doesn\u2019t like or doesn\u2019t think deserve any sort of attention or say regarding this particular aspect. I would have assumed that, as a Minister, the Minister would at least take on board some of the recommendations by the Ministry for the Environment as well as the Ministry for Primary Industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI turn to page 17 of the regulatory impact statement, where it specifically talks about, for all forms of extensions, the negative impact that it will have in terms of promoting the sustainable management of natural and physical resources, as well as upholding the Crown\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi, Te Tiriti o Waitangi, obligations. Has the Minister considered the ministry and the Minister\u2019s own ministry\u2019s advice on some of these areas? In particular, I also want to draw attention to paragraph 76 on page 18, where officials consider options three and four. In this case, options three and four are extending the consent by 15 years or extending all consents by 25 years, not consents to 2050 as a blanket approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI wondered if the Minister could enlighten us as to why those two options were not considered when the officials themselves said that these two options are likely to best deliver on the Government\u2019s goals, with relatively similar net benefits that the Minister has spoken about. I think, in particular, with the Minister talking about the economic benefit, it seems like option three, which is to extend all consent by 15 years, would deliver similar economic benefits that the Minister suggested. Why was that also not considered? If the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying some of the advice that the ministry has provided which isn\u2019t reflected in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00221e741172433247bcb7d2f3f3c0354692\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e741172433247bcb7d2f3f3c0354692\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E If I can start with the rather discursive remarks from the last speaker, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, the focus on the date of 2050 or the 20-year duration is driven by a solid commitment to turn around the dire economic circumstances in many parts of regional New Zealand. Yes, we can mount arguments. Five years may enable people to enjoy some short relief before they go through the thicket of unnecessary costs being imposed by these indiscriminate grandees living in regional council with no conception of how their bureaucratic decisions impose costs on long-suffering entrepreneurs and the people that are the backbone of the New Zealand aquaculture industry. I don\u2019t like that thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe second thing: I think the most recent speaker made reference to the fact that I am circumventing or undermining Crown obligations to iwi. A substantial settlement was entered into, in the Helen Clark Government, in terms of an aquaculture settlement. It has been blighted because regional councils have been unwilling, through the planning system, both with regional coastal policy statements, regional plans, and, for me, a very jaundiced interpretation of the coastal national policy statement\u2014something that needs a kina cut, severe pruning. The people that already hold consents as a consequence of this extension will be freed from all of that detritus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere will be no more indiscriminate cost impositions dreamed up by people who actually are driven, sadly, to undermine industry, because the local communities are the beneficiaries when there is a thriving aquaculture enterprise. They\u2019re often the only jobs in that particular area, but they shouldn\u2019t be used as a mine, where rents are extracted by regional council, unless it\u2019s absolutely necessary. That level of necessity will be arrived at by dint of the fact that the ratepayers and the council need to pay for it\u2014a brilliant discipline, because, after all, the owners of these enterprises need to be disciplined with their spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAnd, yes, OK, some of my remarks may have been a bit rhetorical about the Marlborough council. I know there are some redeemable members of that council, but from time to time\u2014from time to time\u2014the truth must be spoken. The truth of the matter is that particular council is covered perpetually in shame, because they created the imbroglio of the seabed and foreshore, and this is a small response enabling us to better use the seabed and foreshore resources to create jobs and not to pander to the indiscriminate, tiny, irrelevant concerns of ecologists and other such people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee1ee98e57e741b2864bc14c29f97417\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee1ee98e57e741b2864bc14c29f97417\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Where to start? We\u2019ve heard about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bba1932cc7424526980561ee8124be2e\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228f3084300fd4b7eb373577a8e73cc81\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha\u2014nothing! We\u2019ve heard some florid language. We have talked about this power to undertake a review and how, strangely for the Resource Management Act (RMA), this amendment says that a consent authority cannot charge for a review of consent, and we\u2019ve heard the Minister answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen we have, at the next clause down, the purpose of the review, and some strange language for the Resource Management Act, but it says, \u201Cas long as the review is undertaken in a way that\u2014(a) is consistent with Part 2;\u201D\u2014that being Part 2 of the RMA, and we know that sustainable management purpose\u2014\u201Cand (b) does not prevent the permit holder from carrying out the aquaculture activity to which the coastal permit relates.\u201D So my first question, with zero rhetoric, is: what is the temporal scale of that (b)? Is the permit holder not able to be prevented from carrying out the aquaculture activity whilst the review is being undertaken? Or is it that they can never be prevented from undertaking that aquaculture work, which would defeat any point of a review happening in the first place, whoever was paying for it? And we know, in this case, it will only be ratepayers who could possibly be paying for it, because of the avoidance of section 36 of the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI want to focus on some of the things that the Minister has told us. He has told us that this is all about jobs and that these activities are extant. He hasn\u2019t referred to any evidence showing that they are forecast to continue for ever. I am sure that is his view, though. He hasn\u2019t provided any evidence about these \u201Caberrant\u201D councils reviewing consents, but he has mentioned, a lot, \u201Clandscape concerns\u201D and \u201Camenity\u201D. I would commend to him the Natural and Built Environment Act that this Government has repealed, because that did a lot to change the strength of amenity that we have in the Resource Management Act, and I think that is something that this Government should go back to, of course. But, if this is true\u2014if the Minister has the evidence to show that the council is behaving terribly and reviewing all these consents based on amenity values based on landscape\u2014then that could be in the purpose of the review, and the council could have to pay for their own reviews if it was related to those landscape and amenity issues. But no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhat we heard then was that ecologists are trouble as well, and maybe don\u2019t go back to the Natural and Built Environment Act if you don\u2019t like ecologists or environmental bottom lines. I am, of course, in favour of these things\u2014caring about the environment\u2014and that, of course, is what the purpose of the RMA is to some extent as well, with its sustainable management purpose. And that takes us back, of course, to the purpose of the review having to be consistent with Part 2. There should always be a role for ecologists in this. The Minister talked about indiscriminate \u201Cdetritus\u201D, and I put it to the Minister that indiscriminate detritus can sometimes have important ecological effects, and those effects are ones that may need to be assessed. It should not be for the ratepayers to assess those effects, if they are having a detrimental effect on the environment\u2014the environment that is everybody\u2019s and not just those permit holders\u2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo my question is: one, how can the Minister have so much disregard for the environment when this clause still refers to Part 2 and all of these sections are within the Resource Management Act, the purpose of which is sustainable management? And, secondly, what is the temporal nature of new section 165ZFHJ(b)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022b49d224a8164414693b0219b1f3d6fda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b49d224a8164414693b0219b1f3d6fda\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you to the other members for giving me the opportunity to ask the Minister to illuminate further what I think is a very salient issue\u2014I think we haven\u2019t canvassed it at all well, and I think this is a wonderful opportunity for the Minister to do that\u2014employment in regional New Zealand and what it actually looks like. I think the Minister might have an opportunity to contextualise, for my benefit, in this jaundiced environment, tino rangatiratanga, giving people self-determination. We hear about it all the time, Minister, from members of the Opposition, that we have an economic activity seen to be sitting in the doldrums. Sir, could you speak to what Part 1 looks like in terms of the extension of 20 years, given places like Auckland Council have certainly afforded a longer period of time, and what that looks like as help to our regions\u2014especially areas like Northland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022 data-id=\u00227a01308e5ac64e6ebe2361518277ca7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a01308e5ac64e6ebe2361518277ca7d\u0022\u003EDARLEEN TANA:\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have several concerns and questions, and depending on how the debate fares, I also have some proposed amendments tabled. Because I can understand the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries\u2019 appetite for growth, I\u2019d like to ask the Minister for his reflections, please, on how this bill will serve, or relates to, our seafood sector requirements to meet our international trade obligations. I am thinking of free-trade agreements with the UK and the EU and their chapters on trade and environment, when they talk about kaitiakitanga and mauri. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003EIn a similar vein, we are aware that our international trading partners have increasingly rigorous expectations around the credible, sustainable food production\u2014be that terrestrial or marine. So I\u2019d like to understand how the Minister understands the passing of this bill, as currently proposed, will support our marine farm consent holders in modernising, perhaps, to actually keep abreast of these increasing standards over the next 20-odd years, because 20-odd years is a long time, as the Minister has said, and I just do wonder at the wisdom of issuing consents for such a period with such massive changes happening climatically\u2014rising sea water temperatures is one example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003EI ask these questions because I wonder whether, firstly, a blanket extension is appropriate for all 1,200 marine farms or whether some form of nuancing might be appropriate, in case, for example, where we do have existing marine farms that do fall short of our regulations of national environmental standards maybe based on their location. Secondly, I wonder whether the review provisions are strong enough or whether they might be appropriate, if only to signal some kind of a direction of modernisation intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003EMy other area of concern relates to the appropriate locus of decision-making power. I would like to acknowledge the submissions of the learned officials\u2014among them tangata whenua, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, the Environmental Defence Society, and, notably, the regional councils\u2019 consenting authorities themselves\u2014for highlighting the very practical realities that the appropriate locus of decision-making power, in terms of this bill in new Subpart 1B, should be local or regional. The whakapapa in each rohe moana and rohe whenua is unique, and, yes, fish are whanaunga too. The mauri, even if we were to define it crudely as the state of biodiversity of each of those rohe moana and rohe whenua, are also specific to place. The kaitiaki ahi k\u0101, those with mana i te whenua and mana i te moana, have obligations to tiaki, to care for, the whakapapa of those places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003EMy third question to the Minister is, therefore: why are we introducing a central government actor? Why is that needed\u2014in this case, the Director-General for the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2014when regional councils have been doing this work since the beginning of the Resource Management Act and are best placed to assess the adequacy of existing consent conditions and make recommendations according to best practice, if not to the national environmental standards for marine aquaculture?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003EI do have other concerns relating to appropriateness of cost-recovery provisions, but I think our colleagues on this side of the Chamber have covered those, so I won\u2019t venture into that territory. Thank you. I look forward to hearing from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022da931f919fc6494b826dc76c792ac3f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da931f919fc6494b826dc76c792ac3f2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E There are a number of remarks that cannot go on in their false and ill-conceived way. There is the fiction that amenity and landscape values are of a greater level of significance than jobs and household livelihoods. To the former Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, one need look no further than the debacle of the salmon company struggling after spending $10 million to seek a resource consent\u2014$10 million down the gurgler of consultants, unelected bureaucrats, and unhelpful scientists, people who are driven to act in a manner inversely related to economic durability in their communities. Who wins from that type of attitude? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EYes, there are a tiny number of property owners in areas such as Marlborough Sounds who do not want this type of industry. They should not be able to drive the outcomes that affect hundreds if not thousands of New Zealand families who do not have university degrees to complicate common-sense things and who do not have access to the deep pockets of those groups who want to weaponise environmental law and hide it behind consultants\u2019 gobbledegook. All of that is gone now in this bill. This bill cuts through that level of bureaucratic molasses\u2014all gone. This is purely ensuring that those elements are not weaponised to the point we\u2019re driving communities into penury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOn the matter of giving evidence that a regional council has frustrated, look no further than the area I hail from. The capacity to create additional marine farming enterprises off the coast of Te Tai Tokerau hovers near zero. Yes, there is an example where a group did create, off the shores of Stephenson Island out of Whangaroa Harbour, some new space for mussel farms. That took them millions of dollars, but they now have a consent, and they\u2019ve got it till 2050. They don\u2019t have to submit themselves to these invasive, costly, woke-riddled processes. That\u2019s why this bill is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00226e041f2fa1954dd0bb8d223e57d6c3c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e041f2fa1954dd0bb8d223e57d6c3c7\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to take another call in this committee of the whole House stage. Minister, we had 1,100 submitters\u20141,000 submitters opposed the bill in its current form. We had many submitters suggest time frames of five years, 10 years\u2014and, yes, I know this has been brought up before, but I have a different angle to this, Mr Chair. Both my colleagues Tangi Utikere and Steve Abel also have amendments put forward with regards to the time frames that were suggested. The Minister himself has said that the 20-year duration is to give certainty, to give the opportunity for growth, for regional economic development in the regions, for employment opportunities, and all those things. No one is arguing that that is not a good thing. We all want thriving agricultural marine farms. We all want good regional employment, good regional job opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe Minister also said that he would have loved to have, ideally, an aquaculture bill and that he couldn\u2019t or didn\u2019t do all the things that he wanted to in this particular bill. I ask the Minister, then, why, aside from the reasons he\u2019s given us, he didn\u2019t seek to give a shorter time frame of the five and 10 years to the sector, for a rollover that would give them certainty and that would give some regional development opportunities for jobs, so that then this would not have been a rushed process and he could have developed a bill that is fit for purpose, that meets all the things that he wanted to do, that gives everyone certainty going forward and looks after the environment, and that ensures proper consultation happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard many\u2014we had 13 days, I think, for an opportunity for people to submit\u2014concerns around the ability for tangata whenua, iwi, and hap\u016B, to be able to really be consulted on this, for the public, everyone, to be consulted and have the ability to submit on this. Why then did the Minister not take that into consideration and, therefore, have a bill that was fit for purpose, that was not rushed\u2014like this piece of legislation\u2014and that would give him the opportunity to put forward the aquaculture bill that he really wanted to put forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd1a8aa200b24b6ea9e2ff77d5e9121c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd1a8aa200b24b6ea9e2ff77d5e9121c\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m still interested to hear from the Minister around the method for notification under new Subpart\u00A01A, new section 165ZFHD. Just further in that particular section, specifically new subsection (3), it talks about a situation where a permit holder decides to continue to operate under an extant coastal permit that would be extended under this particular subpart. If someone is doing that, then there is a requirement here where they must withdraw the application. This is a situation where there\u2019s an application that\u2019s live and they make the decision to continue to operate under the existing conditions or under the existing permit. This clause requires the permit holder to withdraw the application that they have lodged within a time frame of two months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, my question to the Minister is: why can\u2019t that be automatic? If there is a requirement for notification to occur to the consenting authority under previous provisions\u2014and I\u2019ve got it here; I can tell the Minister, if he needs it\u2014why then is there a requirement for there to be the onus on the applicant to actively withdraw an application? I know that this is largely administrative, but I think it\u2019s an important point that, yes, there\u2019s a requirement under this bill for existing permit holders who would be subject to this extension to make a decision either to continue under the existing conditions of the current permit they hold or to continue with an application that\u2019s currently lodged. In the circumstance where they wish to do the former, as I understand it, there is a requirement for them to withdraw the application, but there\u2019s also a requirement for them to notify the consenting authority of the decision they wish to make. So that\u2019s one particular question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other is in new section 165ZFHF. This is about the decision to operate under extant coastal permits. Now, new subsection (2) talks about when the surrender of a permit would actually take effect. My question to the Minister is\u2014and language is important, because I know that details matter\u2014when it comes to surrendering, effectively, a permit, what does that actually mean? Why don\u2019t we have the word \u201Ccancel\u201D in there? Is it because that at some point in time, actually, that surrendered\u2014what is the status of the surrendered permit? Once the permit is surrendered, is that the end of it, or does it sit there with the potential for it to be uplifted at a future point in time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo the first question is: why is it that there is an onus on the applicant to withdraw an application where they\u2019ve already made a decision to, effectively, have their permit extended? The second question is around the status of a surrendered permit\u2014and I do note that it is a replacement permit, but none the less, is there a reason as to why it\u2019s surrendered and not simply cancelled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf7a62954c6a4924b899412cfc581d53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf7a62954c6a4924b899412cfc581d53\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would like to first thank the Minister for providing me with much-needed entertainment. But I have yet to get a response from the Minister regarding the question that I asked. I understand the Minister\u2019s position on a lot of the things that he mentioned, but I was specifically asking it in the context of the regulatory impact statement, particularly where the regulatory impact statement talks about the negative impact on promoting the sustainable management of natural and physical resources and upholding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would just like to get a clarification from the Minister: if the Minister believes there is no negative impact to the natural and physical resources or that the Crown / Tiriti obligations have been upheld, would that mean that the regulatory impact statement, as has been stated here, is incorrect? Which is good; which is fine. We get that. But it would be good to get that from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we mentioned before, and one of the other speakers mentioned before, is in terms of what this does to the regions. I will also, I guess, at this stage like to point out that all regional and unitary councils oppose this bill. It would be really good to get the response from the Minister that if this is really good for regional development\u2014and I really hope that it is; also it did state here in the regulatory impact statement that it does have certainty for industry and consent authorities; this is not my area of specialty\u2014why then would the regional and unitary councils oppose this bill if it\u2019s going to be good for the regions? If the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOn the off chance that this does have potential future impact, because the extension of this bill goes to 2050, as we mentioned, has there been any modelling? Again, providing jobs is really, really important for the regions, and we would like to see those jobs sustained for long periods of time. I would like to ask the Minister or the officials whether there has been any sort of modelling around when certain environments or when the agriculture or the consent itself can no longer sustain the same level of jobs or production through a variety of reasons\u2014the degradation of natural resources or the natural environment being one of them. But, for the sake of talking about the courses just in general, has any modelling been done in case something doesn\u2019t go according to plan over the next 25 years? What are some of the mechanisms for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn this case, I\u2019m looking at new section 165ZFHC(3), where we\u2019re looking at \u201CThe conditions applying to \u2026 coastal permit\u201D, and I wondered if anything has been done around that, if any sort of additional conditions or any sort of wiggle room has been provided during this period, or if we are going to see an exponential or increasing investment into something for the same level of output or for the same level of sustainability. I think the Minister used a very key word here, \u201Ceconomic durability\u201D, which I agree with, and I think it would be nice for us to have that, but what happens if we are putting in more investment into it than the output? Would that be considered durable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThose are the three questions that I would like to get some response from the Minister on. Also just, Mr Chair, for you as well, so far what I\u2019m hearing is we\u2019re still sort of on the new Subpart 1A part of this discussion, but it\u2019d be really good at some stage to weigh in, when we get the clarifications that we ask for from the Minister in due time and move on to new Subpart 1B. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022331b390d49f243c3891744d915113760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022331b390d49f243c3891744d915113760\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I want to go back to something the Minister said in response to my questions, and that was about amenity. I think he may have misheard me because my question was: if amenity is the concern\u2014it\u2019s not ecological things; it\u2019s amenity, it\u2019s landscape\u2014then he should have supported the Natural and Built Environment Act. But also, if that is the point, if the policy purpose here is so that regional councils do not go around doing reviews based on complaints from wealthy bach owners, if that is the crux of the problem, then that is what this constraint on councils not being able to charge for reviews should apply to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI put it to you that when we look down at new section 165ZFHK, \u201CConcurrence of Director-General required for review to proceed\u201D, that issue around landscape could be embodied in that so that the director-general will only give concurrence for a review to proceed if the review has nothing to do with amenity or landscape or baches, for instance. Then you wouldn\u2019t need, at new section 165ZFHI, this carve-out about section 36 not enabling a council to charge for a review, because you simply would not allow any reviews for those amenity issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhen I was talking about evidence, the Minister responded with some examples of where marine farms have not been consented in the first place. But this bill is not about consenting of new marine farms; it is all about extending the consents of existing marine farms. The question was about evidence regarding reviews: have regional councils done reviews of existing consented marine farms based on these amenity values that so upset the Minister? So that is the question there. Why not\u2014if the problem is amenity and baches\u2014amend new section 165ZFHK so that the director-general will not give concurrence if the review is based solely on amenity grounds, and then delete new subsection (4) saying, \u201CDespite section 36, a consent authority [has to] bear its own costs\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022338610f1c1134cd8955b84b02534cf0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022338610f1c1134cd8955b84b02534cf0c\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We still wait for some of those responses from the Minister, but while we wait for that, I would like to move on to clause 4, which inserts new section 165ZFHH, \u201CApplication of extension where coastal permit is under appeal\u201D. It seems very peculiar that in subsection (2) here, it says that \u201CThe extension does not apply\u2014(a) until all rights of appeal are exhausted;\u201D or if the application is declined or withdrawn. My question to the Minister is: why is it necessary to indicate in legislation that all rights of appeal need to be exhausted? I note that on a question of a point of law, there is an appeal through to the High Court, which is indicated elsewhere, but why is there a need to insert the reference to ensuring that all appeal rights\u00A0have been exercised and exhausted? Surely, that\u2019s a natural justice application that\u00A0exists with all decisions that are made, provided that they are taken through the right judicial process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to follow up on the point that my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking has just touched on, and it relates to the proposed new section 165ZFHI, \u201CPower to undertake review\u201D. Now, it talks about the ability of a consent authority to undertake a review of the conditions that might exist under Subpart 1A, but when we look at subsection (3)(b), it talks about the fact that a review that might be undertaken under this particular provision \u201Cmust not be undertaken more than once in relation to any coastal permit;\u201D. Now, my question to the Minister is: what if there has been a review that has been sought for a condition of a permit that has gone through the process? And then there is an issue with a different condition of that permit. Is that then subject to no further review, despite the fact that the conditions are distinctly different or separate? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is, firstly: is subsection (3)(b), in fact, indicating that the limitation of only one review in relation to a coastal permit is for the permit in toto, or is it related to the conditions, and if it is related to the permit in toto, then how is that providing a fair approach to have other conditions, that might be sought to be reviewed effectively, reviewed by the consent authority? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00222c5eef448a60454ead4a41113712b08e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c5eef448a60454ead4a41113712b08e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I sense we\u2019re wending our way to the end of this session, so I shall make some additional remarks. The member makes some very relevant points as to why the rights of an applicant to continue on with a process would be retained. In the event that this legislation does change, there may very well be applicants who are seeking, for example, to change some of the boundaries of a permit that this legislation will allocate to them into, arguably, 2050, and I would say that a lot of people have got permits well beyond 2050. They\u2019ve got permits that go 35 years long, so the fact that I\u2019ve compromised on 2050, I thought, was very modest and reasonable. The policy point that\u2019s made here is to preserve the rights of that applicant to continue, indeed if they feel that it\u2019s necessary because there are problems with the location of the farm, to enjoy those ongoing rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOn the matter of new section 165ZFHI, \u201CPower to undertake review\u201D, when the review is undertaken\u2014and they will be very, very few in number, because this is not really a troublesome industry. These farms have been there for decades. They\u2019re now an indelible feature of the local environment, and it\u2019s a sad day, actually, that they\u2019re not there in perpetuity, but the only reason we can\u2019t do that is because this is the commons and, if people are going to have a perpetual right, that right, sadly, has to be dealt with in the context of whether there are residual interests with the local M\u0101ori through the seabed and foreshore. And I don\u2019t want the industry permanently blighted by that endless fairytale. I would say that the two-year reference talks about the fact that, if there are conditions that need to be reviewed and you have a period of uncertainty, it has to be dealt with in two years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI really feel that the bill, when you look at the fundamental, underlying purpose of the bill, lays out that there are trade-offs. It is not reasonable that people who have spent their life savings, who have got their houses mortgaged to the hilt to create jobs in wee businesses in regional New Zealand, year after year have to put up with the depredations of unelected grandees in these councils, who do not face the costs of their ill-informed, indiscriminate wandering ways, trying to interfere with the lawful business of aquaculture. That\u2019s why it\u2019s really important that we focus, as I\u2019ve endeavoured to do, on the two-year period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t really want to talk any more about the regulatory statement, because that\u2019s now an element of history. We\u2019ve got to look forward. Yes, there was a host of considerations reflected from the different Government departments in that regulatory statement. This bill does not undermine any iwi interests. Yes, there were references in the regulatory statement from some iwi who feel that it violates their iwi settlements. Far too much is read into these consultation opportunities in the iwi settlements. They are not the power of veto. They are not going to be allowed to hijack economic development where garden-variety Kiwis are trying to make a living and they fear that their enterprises are going to be hijacked or held hostage by people reading up, or coming up with, the most jaundiced interpretation in respect of the Treaty settlements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe Treaty settlements were and remain a point in time, and the Crown does have to work with iwi to respect them, but all iwi need to hop on the bus of economic empowerment, whether it\u2019s the iron sands of Taranaki, the aquaculture in Marlborough, or the mining in Tai Poutini.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022deff97bdd1294f00a30ca52553ddad2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022deff97bdd1294f00a30ca52553ddad2e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the call. Minister, we clearly see your bluster and certainty around the need to trample on your garden-variety Kiwis in the regions who want to have input on what happens in their commons and to make these dictates from on high from the throne of central government. But I do wonder, in considering what a reasonable piece of legislation might look like, if you have any mind to making some reasonable amendments to this. Obviously, we oppose it in its entirety. But, given the nature of this House, with this current Government being so averse to even the slightest improvement or tweak on an otherwise bad piece of legislation, I wonder if you in your wisdom and experience might consider that there are, in fact, some well-considered amendments that could improve this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a62bcf3777bc412e9f313bb6cea4600d\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair! Mr Chair!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022542188b7eb7d4cc2a8ce839e154ab348\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t finished. I know you\u2019d like me to be finished, but I haven\u2019t quite finished yet. It\u2019s the passion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EOne of the things that came up in the hearings, Minister, was the impact of fish farms\u2014finfish farms\u2014being quite significantly different to molluscs. Finfish farms produce a lot of waste: faeces from the fish, and uneaten food. They are well known and understood across the world to generate problems of pest organisms. The nutrient loads that make their way to the seafloor suffocate benthic communities and turn the seabed hypoxic and anoxic. They have impacts on wild fish species and wild species of all sorts of varieties. The antibiotics that are put into finfish farms also have an impact on the environment, and the detritus that comes out of a finfish farm can travel for up to 1,000 metres, indiscriminately. Finfish farms make up a tiny percentage of our total farms\u2014around 2\u00A0percent of total consents\u2014and so I have a proposed amendment here that would not give this 20-year extension to finfish farms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIn recognition of the unique characteristics of the complexities we\u2019ve had with them here in this country, with fish dying en masse in one instance\u2014or other instances as well\u2014and with the significant impacts they have, is it not correct that they should be subject to a more thorough scrutiny and consent process? And, simply, the existing status quo consent process could be applied to finfish farms who wanted to extend their consents. They would not be entitled to this exceptional privilege of an automatic 20-year extension. And the other consideration is that, unlike molluscs, finfish are considered as sentient in our legislation, and some people, in a number of submissions, characterised some forms of finfish farming as like battery farming at sea. I know the Minister will have a lot of fun with that, but that is a view that is taken, because fish are animals too. Given they make up only 2 percent of our consents, would not excluding finfish from the bill recognise their more substantial environmental effects? Under this amendment, they would be given this free pass that they perhaps should not have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EMinister, in clause 4, new section 165ZFHB, we propose inserting a new subsection\u00A0(2), on page 3, after line 16: \u201CHowever, nothing in this subpart applies to coastal permit authorising aquaculture activities in relation to finfish, as that term is defined in section 2(1) of the Fisheries Act 1996.\u201D That is a proposal that seems nominal and reasonable, and I hope you will consider it, Minister. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00228a0d245f0e6941c8a37fd5af49c05c03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a0d245f0e6941c8a37fd5af49c05c03\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. First of all, I just want to highlight to the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries the question that I asked earlier around his aquaculture bill. He didn\u2019t come back and answer my question around that. The other thing I wish to highlight is that he hasn\u2019t addressed the question around the director-general (DG)\u2014the question that my colleague Mr Steve Abel asked. I wanted to come back to that particular point because many submitters and also the Labour members and Green Party members couldn\u2019t quite understand why it was so important for the director-general to be given such a lot of power within this bill. A council, as we\u2019ve talked about before, can undertake a review, right? They\u2019ve got, in this legislation, up to two years to do that, but they can only do that if the director-general gives them permission to undertake that review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ENow, earlier on in the evening, the Minister himself made a point around councils undertaking reviews, and he said, \u201Cwhich are very few\u201D. So, if he wants the DG to be there to safeguard against councils undertaking reviews willy-nilly because of nimbyism and all that kind of stuff that he has talked about, why does he see that the director-general is such an important part of that? Councils are going to have to pay\u2014ratepayers are going to have to pay\u2014to undertake a review, so why has he put in that additional step for the director-general, which both the Opposition parties in the Primary Production Committee, perhaps, suggested an amendment at the time to remove? In actual fact, if councils have to pay, they\u2019re not likely to just go and undertake reviews willy-nilly because of nimbyism and all those other things. I\u2019d be very interested in why the Minister wouldn\u2019t consider removing the DG from that process or why he considers it so very important to have the DG there in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad621e8312944b958e24c40553f23806\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad621e8312944b958e24c40553f23806\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E The involvement of the director-general reflects that this Government wants to see the key ministries, such as the Ministry for Primary Industries, driving towards economic development, prosperity, and resilience. We\u2019ve had occasions where regional councils have wandered off their constitutional reservation. One should look no further than the Otago Regional Council and their wilful disregard of this Government\u2019s intention to rationalise and recalibrate water standards. With the director-general enjoying this status, there will be no willy-nilly, no random, fanciful forays on behalf of regional councils blighting economic development within aquaculture. There are and there remains some unresolved issues amongst a host of our regional councils and, I repeat again, one should look no further than the current conduct of the regional council of Otago, who need to be pulled into line. If we had a provision like they\u2019ve got here for the regional councils, we would not have that time-wasting, ideological, foreign thinking we\u2019re seeing in Otago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022530d8bd8987445bdbd1bbfaa76597cb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022530d8bd8987445bdbd1bbfaa76597cb9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The committee will resume at 9 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024082026814b59ac2c4ba582208f66d4bb5c37000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.58 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002229f091e79a8f469b8480d18ea8d6d2f4\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 20 AUGUST 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c25922886d7f45b49c51824a88b7ae1b\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 21 August 2024)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd1122a2663a47f88a8af87fbd4dca07\u0022\u003EResource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b7f8e75bf154cc0b96630f5c56f8086\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e76d30ddbf5f4c4e93cdc3a1fe573a51\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Part 7A of Resource Management Act 1991 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228f30fa6a659949c5bb9db9a85830cf1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f30fa6a659949c5bb9db9a85830cf1b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Right. Good morning, members. The committee is resumed. Last night, when we were considering the bill, we were debating Part 1. I\u2019ve got the run sheet here of the questions and the engagement that were being asked for last night. We\u2019re still on Part 1 and the question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002297dd5946f722447096f4b7be799b915c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297dd5946f722447096f4b7be799b915c\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I would just like to bring to the Minister\u2019s attention that the question I asked last night was around his wont, desire, to have an aquaculture bill. He didn\u2019t answer my question last night when I brought up the fact that the process was quite rushed, that people didn\u2019t have much time to submit, and I asked the question as to why he didn\u2019t take the time, allow a longer period of consultation in order for him, perhaps, to be able to develop the aquaculture bill that he so desires to do. I look forward to the answer from the Minister with regards to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI also have another question. It is in regards to the time frame allowed for consultation and the very quick report-back date for this bill. If you will indulge, I may just quote a couple of submitters. There was some real concern from submitters about the very quick, short consultation period, and in particular from iwi. For example, I would be interested in hearing the Minister\u2019s thoughts on the expectations as a Te Tiriti partner in so far as this consultation period has gone, and, therefore, the final bill that\u2019s come to the House that we\u2019re debating now and the changes that weren\u2019t made as a result of this very short consultation period\u2014where we\u2019ve had 1,100 submitters, a thousand were opposed, and perhaps not feeling quite listened to. I\u2019d be really interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts on this. For example, Ng\u0101i Tahu talked about the fact that \u201Cthe engagement \u2026 has fallen well short of Cabinet guidelines and our expectations as a Te Tiriti partner.\u201D Also, Waikato-Tainui have mentioned that \u201CWhile the Government has committed in its coalition agreement to deliver longer durations for marine farming permits, it has also committed to honour the undertakings in Treaty of Waitangi settlements. This proposal is a clear breach of that commitment.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI would like to hear from the Minister, again, around his desire for the aquaculture bill that he could have had if he had extended this period out, and, therefore, also allowed proper consultation from all of New Zealanders and including iwi M\u0101ori, who feel that they haven\u2019t been given that opportunity and it is a bit of a breach as far as Te Tiriti obligations go. So I\u2019d really like to hear from the Minister about that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d178ccf7da4249ed9e6d46b3137fa987\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d178ccf7da4249ed9e6d46b3137fa987\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Chair, thank you. When we left off last night, there were still a number of questions that the Minister had not yet addressed. The three that I have on my list that I have put to him\u2014one is just to serve as a reminder. Why is there a need to reference appeal rights within the legislation? That\u2019s contained within new section 165ZFHH(2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe second was around the limitations on only one review of a permit and the impact that that might have in relation to a review of a further condition to take place within the two-year period. So this is where you\u2019re only allowed, as I understand it, one opportunity for a review, if that follows through the process, around a condition, but if within a two-year period there is a further issue with perhaps one of the other conditions that relate to a permit, whether that door is closed for the purpose of a review. That is new section 165ZFHI(3)(b).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThen the other one which is still of great interest is the status of a surrendered permit\u2014so this was about a replacement permit. In the circumstance where activities operating under a replacement permit, if that permit was surrendered because the applicant had decided to take up the opportunity to have the permit extended, what is the status of a surrendered permit? Is it that it just lies dormant and can be reactivated in some way? Why not just use the word that the permit is \u201Ccancelled\u201D. It\u2019s about the status of that. Those are the three questions that I\u2019m keen to get a response for from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to turn to the Amendment Paper in my name, which is Amendment Paper 57. This relates to new section 165ZFHI(4) inserted by clause 4. It\u2019s specifically around the ability for territorial authorities or consent authorities, more specifically, to, effectively, recover some of the costs. Now, the Minister has said that he believes that these costs should be borne by the consent authority. That means that those are costs that are to be borne by the ratepayers. It is the Minister and the Government, effectively, lumping on to ratepayers of this country an additional cost, once the director-general has determined that a review can take place. This Amendment Paper seeks to find some balance between full cost recovery and the full cost being borne by the ratepayers. I\u2019m interested to hear\u00A0the Minister\u2019s thoughts on Amendment Paper 57, which says that \u201CDespite section\u00A036\u201D, which is a section that relates to costs, \u201Ca consent authority may recover costs of a review undertaken under this subpart, subject to the following criteria\u201D, and there are two. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe first is that the costs need to be considered as fair and reasonable, and there is much case law around the country as to what fair and reasonable might be considered as, but that is the first criteria that must be engaged if there are costs to be recovered. The second, and this was raised as a possibility through the select committee process, is to actually have the costs capped at a maximum level. Instead of a consent authority saying that actually, \u201CNo, we\u2019ll recover part of it.\u201D, or whatever it might be, what my Amendment Paper does is effectively sets the maximum so that any costs that would be recoverable would not exceed 50 percent of the total costs incurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also worth noting, for the Minister, that they are not either/or; both of those components need to be engaged in order for the costs to be recovered. They need to be fair and reasonable or they need to be up to 50 percent. This is saying, actually, if you look at the costs that have been incurred or may be incurred, that they are considered as fair and reasonable in the circumstances, and also that they won\u2019t exceed more than 50\u00A0percent; so that even if the costs do run higher than that, it means that the ratepayers are not out of pocket for some costs. I\u2019ll leave those with the Minister and come back to some of the other issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab9d69867fa54a00920ee687ebf5e561\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab9d69867fa54a00920ee687ebf5e561\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much and greetings, everyone, for what will, no doubt, be an illuminating morning. On the question of costs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e23b7299fc43cc9d052a5e949259ef\u0022\u003EHon Jo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: No doubt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f6190e601914ff1a55bd6241014e8f4\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014there, no doubt, will be opportunities in the future for the director-general to alert future Governments as to whether or not these enlarged fears that are being spread around the Chamber this morning have any substance. From my perspective, the policy work behind this bill, those fears are groundless. The reason why the ratepayers and the council will meet the costs of an intervention in the legal, rightful business of a marine farmer is because they will know that it has to be of a particularly egregious nature because they\u2019re going to pay for it themselves. In the event that they decide that the condition problem is of such a magnitude that they need to spend the ratepayers\u2019 money, they will also consult and seek the authority of the director-general as a further discipline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is saddled with far too many cases where relatively narrow-minded local government officials are interfering in the rightful business of entrepreneurs and the marine-farming industry. This particular rod of discipline is overdue. The ratepayers know that they benefit from having industry in their regions. The industry, based on risk, multiplies a whole host of benefits every day it remains in business. The dividend enjoyed by the ratepayers is the presence of that industry. Before anyone interferes in this very innocuous, harmless industry called aquaculture, there is an extremely high threshold they must pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOn the question of the surrendering, you may have worked out that I am not surrendering in terms of my advocacy for this bill. This bill provides an opportunity for a marine farmer to enjoy the permit they already have extended till 2050, at the latest; or if they\u2019re involved in a process to adjust elements that comprise their entitlements within that defined area, they can\u2019t have two permits at once. Our side of the House doesn\u2019t believe in double-dipping. The surrendering option enables the applicant to come back and enjoy the 20 to 25 years security, and it simply provides clarity that you can\u2019t be involved with two permits at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b64dc26042da4332870c1dfa3a1f362f\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: So it\u2019s cancelled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022493b8f71a0a94607923a08db251b1899\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Now, on the question\u2014I say again: this bill cancels no permits; this bill breathes life into the entrepreneurial endeavour, the risk-taking ability, and the commitment to double our exports over the next 10 years. That\u2019s the ideological, philosophical purpose of this bill. Where an applicant is already in a process at the point at which this bill is enacted, you only have one permit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EMy point in relation to one review on a permit: the review, if such an additional review is required and there is an egregious failure, like the member from the Green Party contemplated last night with fish farming\u2014a highly profitable activity, happens all over the world: Chile, Norway, other parts of the world, but here in little New Zealand, we catastrophise these points in the ocean that are the size of a beauty spot, but, no we\u2019re not allowed to do it. This bill is getting rid of all of that ideology. We are going to focus through here where there are cases where there may be a serious threat, such as an unwanted biological presence\u2014there are other pieces of legislation to deal with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had far too many unnecessary, superfluous, and worrisome interventions from local government interfering with the rightful business of employers and investors in the marine-farming industry, and today they have their champion in the matua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee581b9d373a46438e85d899bb34adf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee581b9d373a46438e85d899bb34adf5\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, thank you very much. We do appreciate the florid rhetoric of the Minister, but we also would love to get some solid answers on some quite legitimate questions. I thought there was quite a valuable comment from my colleague Lawrence Xu-Nan who said that a beauty spot can too be carcinogenic, and we need to be aware of which ones to watch out for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, I have a very specific question to pick up on a comment the Minister made yesterday. It was a reference to his love of seabed mining in Taranaki\u2014something the Minister raised yesterday. I wanted to question the Minister: how does he balance the diverse interests in that commons that he rightfully acknowledged yesterday when there are tensions between not just ecological values or visual values, but also commercial activities? Taranaki being a good example, but there are similar instances in other parts of the country\u2014many similar instances. In Taranaki, to clarify, we have a situation where the seabed miners want to rip up tens of millions of tonnes of seafloor to extract supposed minerals. It has been fiercely opposed\u2014as the Minister, I\u2019m sure, would know\u2014by the fishing industry for 10 years because it is seen by the commercial wild fisheries industry to be a direct threat to their industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EMost recently, another opposition has come in from the offshore wind industry, because they say they will be unable to build their windfarms if the seabed has been so disturbed that it has lost its stability. These are three competing commercial activities. How and who is it to make the determinations about how to balance these tensions of use of the marine space, which is a commons, if there is simply a dictate from central government to say, \u201CWe are going to extend all of these marine farms without consideration of the other interests in that marine coastal environment.\u201D? That\u2019s a question for the Minister: how are you going to balance those different tensions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI note, very well-articulated by the Marlborough District Council\u2014his favourite regional council\u2014\u201CThe allocation of public space in the coastal marine area is no easy feat, requiring a strategic approach to balance the competing demand for this common resource.\u201D Now, specifically regarding Marlborough, described eloquently in their submission, \u201Cwith its drowned river valleys, and the open coastline of the East Coast of South Marlborough. This coastal area contains scenic landscapes, high levels of indigenous biodiversity, as well as a diverse range of recreational, commercial, and cultural uses.\u201D Who is it to make the determination about how to allocate these resources if not the local people, the regional councils, those representatives of the locals? If we are to impose dictates from on high from central government that override the ability of those regionally elected representatives to make determinations on how to balance these different interests, surely we are in big trouble. Because how is this House best able to determine all of the nuances of the interests that exist in a space such as Marlborough or Taranaki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIn its submission, the council concludes that \u201CIt is fundamentally unsound to have both central and local government attempting to allocate the same coastal marine area\u201D. I would like to ask the Minister: how does he reconcile that fundamental tension? Is he absolutely content to impose the will of central government\u2014it is not localism\u2014on those regional councils?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EMy second point is another very important one to do with aquaculture management areas. This is a very excellent solution that Marlborough has come up with over years to deal with the challenges of marine farms. Now, in 2016, the Marlborough Aquaculture Review Working Group sought to assist the council with how to deal with the extent of their marine farm activity. Just reminding us that we have half of all of New Zealand\u2019s marine farms in Marlborough and 80 percent of the total commercial value of marine farming is in Marlborough, so we should be paying attention to this region\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a399cbac96e9456a945e3bbb2614257e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to let Mr Abel pose his question, but I don\u2019t want to see this be a speech or a five-minute call. I want to see the question relating to Marlborough as you had already started on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277efdaeb2da14604a88982e201cf6055\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to clarify what the aquaculture management areas are, they\u2019re called, simply, Variation 1. They allow for a seaward movement or adjustment of the existing marine farm to the aquaculture management area. This adjustment is enabled through a controlled activity status for reconsenting existing marine farms within an aquaculture management area. The reallocation of the majority of inappropriate marine farms to an aquaculture management area (AMA)\u2014I will speak about any inappropriate marine farms in another call. Marine farmers, therefore, have certainty of tenure through Variation 1. It articulates where aquaculture is appropriate and implements the requirements of the New Zealand coastal policy statement and the RMA in Marlborough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, Variation 1 disincentivised marine farmers from moving seaward into AMAs to provide for Variation 1. In this legislation, they\u2019re saying, \u201CThe blanket extension provided by the Bill has the very real potential to undermine Variation 1\u201D, and these variations strike the \u201Cbalance of enabling Marlborough\u2019s marine farming to continue to thrive while at the same time ensuring sensitive coastal areas and habitats, many of which are regionally and nationally significant, are protected.\u201D So here it is, Marlborough has at great lengths sought to solve the challenges. Marine farmers, therefore, have certainty of tenure through Variation 1, which is what the Minister is concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like the Minister, if he would, to respond to that question about the impact of this blanket extension on the option of aquaculture management areas in Variation 1, as well as my earlier question on how it is to manage these diverse interests in the marine space if not through the knowledge of the local regions. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d72374b85b5241839069ad8d37026f9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d72374b85b5241839069ad8d37026f9e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Let\u2019s be really clear: the allocation of space, the utilisation of the commons, is already subject to central and local government interactions. Aquaculture allocation\u2014i.e., entitlements\u2014are guided by the New Zealand Coastal Policy Statement. That wretched creature is a feature of central government. Sadly, in the vast majority of New Zealand, it impedes the economic monetisation of our boundless coastal environment\u2014something I hope to change in the near future. It is not correct to say this is exclusively an area where local representatives have the ultimate authority. They are guided by guardrails created by central government. An additional guardrail with neon lights will be passed by this Parliament very shortly\u2014that\u2019s the first thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOn the question of how do you manage vexed areas such as Taranaki, I\u2019m the first to admit that there has been a historic level of friction between quota owners and applicants wanting to extract vanadium, titanium, and a host of other very valuable rare earth minerals from the bed of the sea. A national conversation is most certainly needed, because we have surrendered to a tiny minority of loud, shrill, ill-informed voices who have weaponised not only tikanga M\u0101ori but have weaponised the anxieties that people have at a time when New Zealand has very few options other than to engage in trade-off politics and use mother Nature\u2019s bounty\u2014i.e., the iron sands off the coast of Taranaki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI look forward to playing a key role as the Minister of natural resources, but today I\u2019m here as the steward of this bill in my fisheries role. There is already a host of opportunities in regional New Zealand to balance what\u2019s in the coastal policy statement, driven by the Department of Conservation, what\u2019s in regional coastal policy statements, what\u2019s in regional coastal plans. The effect of those plans has been to chill, undermine, and freeze economic development in the coastal environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EComing back to Marlborough, there is nothing to stop future applicants using this much-vaunted new approach. But people who already have their permits will be spared the ordeal of having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in these processes in Marlborough\u2014highly weaponised\u2014and employment is going to trump privilege enjoyment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022127d49f33abd4af9a4c9517057c34f38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022127d49f33abd4af9a4c9517057c34f38\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd57f4d532c34b9e88cc1b9710329f6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd57f4d532c34b9e88cc1b9710329f6b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to signal here that we are getting closer to the closure of this debate. I watched last night and this morning and I do see that the Minister has progressively worked his way through answering the questions. I am going to take a couple more questions from people who have been waiting for a little while\u2014burning questions\u2014but I want to see new questions. I\u2019m going to go first to Jo Luxton. Then I\u2019m going to go to Tangi Utikere. Then we\u2019ll see what develops from there, but we\u2019re getting very close to the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002243f7e64dab08408c9d0673f7947ce0d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243f7e64dab08408c9d0673f7947ce0d3\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to question the Minister around the \u201CProcess applying to review\u201D new section 165ZFHL. Now, the Minister, he talked before about the marine farms, aquaculture farms\u2014it\u2019s commons area. Therefore, no one specifically owns a piece of it as you would a piece of land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWithin the process applying to review\u2014let\u2019s say it\u2019s gone through the process of the council wanting to review the consent; the director-general\u2019s given the sign off on that. Then in this particular clause here, Minister, it talks about the people who will be notified. Now, I don\u2019t see general public here; there is a specific list of people who will be notified. But, Minister, given that these aquafarms are in commons and given the fact that the review will have to be paid for by the council, therefore paid for by the ratepayers, how is it democratic for ratepayers\u2014putting aside your thoughts around nimbyism; let\u2019s pretend this isn\u2019t nimbyism happening here\u2014other ratepayers who have an actual real interest in this? Why are they excluded from being notified? Why is this not going to be publicly notified, given that they will be the ones footing the bill for this review that has gone through the process of being reviewed? How can this be a democratic process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EIs this not just\u2014for a Minister who talks about getting everything out of Wellington and out into the regions\u2014sucking back decision making to Wellington?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e645fd2e676541c3ac464a9c7c7e057a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e645fd2e676541c3ac464a9c7c7e057a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister, the Hon Shane Jones, for addressing a couple of the questions. There is still the issue of the reference to the appeal rights inclusion in the legislation, which the Minister has not addressed, and also I am yet to have a response from the Minister about his view on Amendment Paper 57, which is on the Table and has been available in the public domain for the last couple of weeks. I would be keen to hear the Minister\u2019s thoughts on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to turn my focus now to new section 165ZFHK, and this is about the concurrence of the director-general (D-G). Now, our position is that we don\u2019t agree that the director-general should be involved in this particular way, but if that is going to be set aside by the Parliament and the director-general is involved, I do have some questions that relate to the role that the director-general would undertake. In particular, when we\u2019re looking at that proposed new section, subsection (2)(a) talks about the need for the D-G to make a decision either to concur with the consent authority or otherwise. The question that I have for the Minister, firstly, is how will the director-general be guided in making those determinations? Surely there must be some form of framework or ability for the director-general to consider various aspects, otherwise it would change depending on director-general to director-general. The question is around scope, really, and what guidance would be provided for the D-G to be able to exercise those\u2014whether that\u2019s something that\u2019s suggested might be within regulation or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EFurther in that section, it talks about a particular time frame for the director-general to receive information in reaching a determination. Now, OK, what\u2019s consistent with the Resource Management Act is that there is an ability for time frames to be extended if there is a need for further information to be provided. What\u2019s not clear in this section, however, is that whilst there might be a time frame for getting the information to the director-general to be able to make a determination on a review, there doesn\u2019t appear to be any time frame for the director-general to make a determination. It\u2019s one thing in the process of receiving information\u2014and, OK, it\u2019s quite clear about working time frames, as to when that information would arrive\u2014but I invite the Minister to comment on the ability for a time frame within which the director-general will make a decision. Now, that\u00A0is important because, further on this particular part, there are time frames set for when decisions need to be made on a review, but it seems to be absent of time frames that relate\u00A0to the director-general to be able to make a decision. So I will leave that with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other area that I do want to touch on\u2014I understand that my colleague Mr Bennett actually has an interest in asking a question on one part of new section 165ZFHL, so I won\u2019t, in the interest of time, delve into that. The issue that I do have is on new section 165ZFHM. This is about the time frame relating to when a decision needs to be made. The Primary Production Committee has changed the wording from \u201Cbeginning\u201D to \u201Cinitiating\u201D the review. My question to the Minister is: how is initiation described?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt could be that, if you begin a review, that\u2019s very clear\u2014when the green light has been given to the consent authority to undertake the review. It would seem, to me, that that\u2019s when the time starts ticking. Now, initiating a review\u2014are we talking about when the consent authority first lodges something with the director-general? Is it the point when the director-general makes the determination that a review can go ahead or not? Is it extended by the 20 working days because the director-general makes a determination that they need more information? There is a clear change in the wording from \u201Cbeginning\u201D to \u201Cinitiating\u201D, and my question is: what does \u201Cinitiating\u201D mean in the context of a process for determining whether a review is successful?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIf a review is not to be undertaken, that\u2019s a moot point, clearly, but \u201Cinitiating\u201D is what? I think that\u2019s important. Is it the date that the application is received? Is it the date that the director-general makes the decision or determination? Is it the date that the notification exists? They are important considerations that I\u2019d appreciate from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002252a078c2b36a4c169b1f9f14e25f4bd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252a078c2b36a4c169b1f9f14e25f4bd1\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Extraordinary, we\u2019re now talking about the rights of initiation. Obviously, the authority to undertake a review of conditions depends on the concurrent authority being exercised by the director-general. Nothing is legal until such time both parties have agreed that there is a case for\u2014within the two-year period\u2014such an exercise to take place. It is beyond cavil in terms of the clear meaning of the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn relation to who ought to be invited or entitled to have a say in relation to either an appeal in the event that someone is offended by the effects of this inquiry within a two-year period, I think you should contemplate it in the sense of the law of propinquity\u2014i.e., how close are you to the effects of the decision? We don\u2019t want this business where these are cafe-sipping people from Ponsonby who can muck around in the Tai Tokerau, wander down to other earthy parts of regional New Zealand and have a say about a highly localised, relatively modest issue. For those reasons, the law clearly states a limited number of people are entitled to be nosy parkers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, this is an extraordinarily longstanding failure of resource management law. It\u2019s provided an opportunity for people to claim standing. In actual fact, the likelihood of them being impacted by the decision is remote. But then they get involved, they frustrate the local development outcomes of an area, and those types of meddlesome activities are stripped away by this bill\u2014all gone. There\u2019ll be no more of these interfering urbanites undermining the resilience of regional New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo that reflects the policy intent, and I hope to see, when the select committee eventually reports back my beloved fast-track initiative, a similar standard. No more standing for these self-appointed guardians like Greenpeace lecturing the rest of the world as to how we should live. Their capacity to influence regional development through aquaculture and marine farming needs to be narrowed and we don\u2019t want any mutinous activities such as what Sea Shepherd did in America undermining the rights of the fishing industry in New Zealand. We\u2019ve had enough of that. That\u2019s what\u2019s been hobbling our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, in respect of appeal rights, the law as contemplated here is very clear. No one is stripping away the ability of someone to take an appeal in the event statutory authority is exercised. We are putting a discipline in. You\u2019re not going to exercise statutory authority just because a number of people who have exaggerated the importance of a landscape value to the point that it\u2019s swamping the need of New Zealanders to be in employment. If you\u2019ve got any doubt about that, look at the closure of industries and manufacturing plants today due to the distant corporate ambitions of people who are soon to feel the wrath of our Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u002286c0e157e59f4872a4a21e1b500857a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286c0e157e59f4872a4a21e1b500857a7\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c565e94ec5b84b2088ccff417ba5c5be\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221d0cf7ba59d54ffc83c6238404442d2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d0cf7ba59d54ffc83c6238404442d2c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 54 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227d16156aad9049e7940cda1a98a42ed9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f56761f0ef874bbc965e98e26614aa3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f56761f0ef874bbc965e98e26614aa3a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 55 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002291b05e60cb2947d4825924993084a6d9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002253265b38dc5c490084c72102c3860ec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253265b38dc5c490084c72102c3860ec2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s amendment set out on Amendment Paper 59 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225fc483896b114972bca89a8687ad7542\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022de5507b27c5b4970948bc2dd020f6ab1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de5507b27c5b4970948bc2dd020f6ab1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s amendment set out on Amendment Paper 62 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022191ae5e1a7e54a6180c2c1fd8a7cd39d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002236b3aa824be444b59c4cbdccfbad2db5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236b3aa824be444b59c4cbdccfbad2db5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Darleen Tana\u2019s amendment set out on Amendment Paper 74 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022362d04d33c3c4aea8c373ddf1f80089e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022478aaf49c1de4b289e3c3b606dfc1bc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022478aaf49c1de4b289e3c3b606dfc1bc9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Abel\u2019s amendment set out on Amendment Paper 60 is out of order as being the same as an amendment previously not agreed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EDarleen Tana\u2019s amendment set out on Amendment Paper 79 is out of order as being the same as an amendment previously not agreed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment set out on Amendment Paper 57 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220be5b10379594706961a5079a8df4f55\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae3129bc764448cdb7f5b6ed9e2d8591\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae3129bc764448cdb7f5b6ed9e2d8591\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendments set out on Amendment Paper 56 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002235b855014ff94382b2e29b89f24e4dbd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c979d60f497f416991b2ed05b5ec8452\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c979d60f497f416991b2ed05b5ec8452\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Abel\u2019s amendments set out on Amendment Paper 61 are out of order as being the same as amendments previously not agreed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Steve Abel\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 58 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002230ea983cac1c4abd8201453dbb07c63a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226a99324e2fc94f748e16e5ea8261f4e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a99324e2fc94f748e16e5ea8261f4e1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Darleen Tana\u2019s amendment set out on Amendment Paper 78 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226842c7d9850d40929c8fa5f0e0b3e979\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221b1d65caa50a414eafe86c5629c8d67c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b1d65caa50a414eafe86c5629c8d67c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Darleen Tana\u2019s amendment set out on Amendment Paper 80 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225d83ab404a3f472ebe2ad51b4179f078\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6464c7fd1204c4687b7edb3fa5031a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6464c7fd1204c4687b7edb3fa5031a2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Darleen Tana\u2019s amendment set out on Amendment Paper 77 is out of order as being the same in substance as an amendment previously not agreed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EDarleen Tana\u2019s amendments set out on Amendment Papers 75 and 76 are out of order as being the same as amendments previously not agreed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Steve Abel\u2019s amendments set out on Amendment Paper 63 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002257b688b49fed4c829c9efd43f3985e52\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dee2382819b24be8a894cb6fdb4af9f8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000073\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a8793c5e4c44cd99eaacdd382f9074c\u0022\u003EPart 2  Other amendment to Resource Management Act 1991\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb8bfde9ec5440e1bf5aafd9aab06a68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb8bfde9ec5440e1bf5aafd9aab06a68\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clause 5, and that is \u201COther amendment to Resource Management Act 1991\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00229c7cf1e727a6413b85647c90929e451d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c7cf1e727a6413b85647c90929e451d\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Part\u00A02, in terms of what it proposes to insert, in the sort of number of word count, is quite small, but the implications actually are quite significant because they relate to the entire part of Subpart 1A of this bill. We have last night and this morning been making our way through Subpart 1A, which relates to the duration of a coastal permit. Now, section 123A, which this part seeks to amend by, basically, inserting an additional provision, does relate to the duration aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister in the chair, Shane Jones, is, despite the views that have been expressed and some of the answers that have been given, whether he is open to\u2014and there\u2019s still an opportunity to perhaps put another amendment on the Table\u2014ensuring, though, that the consideration of the five-year extension and the 10-year extension time frames, effectively, are still in play. While I accept that that might be unusual, it is still not an impossibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is the five- and 10-year options which have been advanced by the community\u2014albeit haven\u2019t been agreed to by the Primary Production Committee\u2014were issues that were raised in Subpart 1A, and there were very good reasons for that. Some of the points that the Minister has raised relate to the ability or inability of the director-general to exercise their discretion in terms of making determinations and decisions. It might be that actually ensuring that there is a specified time frame within Part 2 is more conducive to ensuring that all of the information is made available to the director-general. I\u2019ll start with that particular question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfeb58976c0c47489d9d7029195c37cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfeb58976c0c47489d9d7029195c37cb\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to pick up on something that the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries mentioned before in terms of Tai Tokerau. My understanding was that Tai Tokerau iwi did not actually support this bill, particularly Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki, who actually had a lot of the marine farms, also did not support the extension. So if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying what the Minister meant by Tai Tokerau, that would be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of Part 2, and particularly when it comes to clause 5 inserting new subsection\u00A0(5) to section 123A of the Resource Management Act, when we are looking at Subpart 1A of Part 7A in the Resource Management Act, I want to particularly draw attention to what happens if the permit holder no longer wishes to hold the permit. One of the things that I have found within the bill itself, but also within Subpart 1A of Part 7A of the Resource Management Act, is clarity around this. Also, I\u2019m sorry, my apologies: Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki is not in Tai Tokerau, but other iwis in Tai Tokerau did vote against this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe reason I mention this is because the Minister answered one part of my question previously, but my second part of the question is around the sort of modelling that has been done when it comes to if the permit holder no longer deems their production or their business to be profitable\u2014can they, in this case, shorten or amend the duration of their permit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, new section 165ZFHI, inserted by clause 4, does say that you \u201Cmust not amend the duration\u201D. I\u2019m looking to Subpart 1A of Part 7A for any example or any sections that may potentially imply an adjustment to the duration at the permit holder\u2019s own volition when it comes to the coastal marine permit. I wondered if sections in the Resource Management Act such as 165D of Subpart 1 of Part 7A, around \u201CPower of consent authorities to refuse to receive applications\u201D, doesn\u2019t quite cover it, but whether something under the subheading \u201Cauthorisation\u201D\u2014like section 165T \u201CAuthorisation lapses in certain circumstances\u201D\u2014may be a possibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really looking for the Minister\u2019s and the officials\u2019 guidance on this, because there is nothing in this bill that has any clarity around voluntary shortening of that permit if someone didn\u2019t want to hold on to it, and what some of the implications are. There might be none; in which case, please let me know, in this case, if there are no additional implications\u2014they simply hold the permit and they don\u2019t need to do anything with it and it naturally lapses in 2050, but it then is no longer operational. The question is around: are there any provisions under the Resource Management Act Subpart 1A of Part 7A that give the permit holder the opportunity to, at their own volition, shorten a permit if they no longer deem their business to be profitable or they no longer wish to operate under that permit and not replace it with another permit? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d29a25ae548343acaadb362053c5c939\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d29a25ae548343acaadb362053c5c939\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A number of questions for the Minister. Of course, this relates to all of the bill\u2014the entirety of the bill\u2014because what is happening, as my colleague Tangi Utikere described, is that this insertion is Part 1 of the bill is being acknowledged here in section 123A of the Resource Management Act (RMA). That is that \u201CThe duration of a coastal permit\u201D\u2014to which the Part 1 that we\u2019ve already been discussing is\u2014\u201Cis subject to any extension\u201D under the duration here of a consent for aquaculture activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe questions are around that coastal permit. The coastal permit is not just a permit to occupy. That is part of what a coastal permit can be\u2014occupation\u2014but it is also the discharge that can be done through a coastal permit. The Primary Production Committee report says that right up the front in the commentary: that extensions are to \u201Ccover all RMA consents needed for a marine farm to operate (such as a coastal permit to occupy or a coastal permit to discharge)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s that latter issue of discharge that has the particular environmental effects that we were talking about in Subpart 1. Those are very important because we\u2019ve also talked about in Subpart 1 that the review\u2014we know that has been well litigated that it\u2019s ratepayers to pay for any review. Not only is that review constrained by needing the director-general\u2019s concurrence but it is also constrained to this two years that it can only commence \u201Cnot later than 2 years after this subpart comes into force\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThat means that there are 18 years\u2019 duration where a consent to discharge cannot be reviewed. I\u2019m interested to know what evidence there is for saying that there\u2019s never going to be a need to review a consent in that 18 years, or if there\u2019s analysis that other parts of the RMA may be able to override this if their effects are significant. I asked the Minister if he sought advice on that particular point, but also if the Minister\u2019s sought advice on other legislation that might apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe heard the Minister and responses to questions earlier saying that\u2014this was in relation to a question about an Amendment Paper that was put about fish farming rather than molluscs. Fish have different environmental effects\u2014different discharges\u2014and they might change over time, so they might need to be reviewed, and what is the Minister going to do about that? The Minister replied, \u201CWell, other legislation might apply.\u201D I\u2019m wondering, then, what other legislation he\u2019s referring to, what advice he has sought on the other legislation, and specifically around environmental effects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard very clearly from the Minister that he\u2019s not interested in amenity and he\u2019s not interested in landscape, and that would be addressed under the occupation consent. But a discharge consent is about environmental effects. We\u2019ve also heard from the Minister that there is an ideological purpose to the bill and he\u2019s told us that he wants to help entrepreneurs. The flip side of that is that it\u2019s allowing pollution\u2014that is what this bill is about. It is about allowing pollution, and even if you\u2019re going to make ratepayers pay to try and do some regulation of that pollution\u2014some protection of the environment from that pollution\u2014they can\u2019t do it for 18 years. This just seems extraordinary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in the effect that this amendment has on section 123A. How are environmental regulators going to make assessments in those 18 years where a council won\u2019t be able to instigate a review with or without the director-general? How are those environmental issues from discharges going to be managed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022780db26fbf624b3f88a64e7278fa5fd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022780db26fbf624b3f88a64e7278fa5fd7\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E We are talking about Part 2, an inoffensive, benign section in this proposed legislation. What it deals with is there may be cases\u2014especially in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, covered by the super-city council\u2014where there\u2019s been a history of allocating 35-year permits, if I can use that term. In the event that someone who enjoys such a permit ends up having the opportunity to extend their permit so it goes beyond 35 years as a consequence of us having a drop-off date of 2050, they\u2019re not going to lose their entitlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOn the question of discharges\u2014on the question as to whether or not Part 2, in addressing whether or not there are a small number who have a longer period to run their business without being hassled, undermined, or unnecessarily taxed, in a figurative sense, by these busybodies in regional government, the reality is we\u2019re going backwards. The purpose of this benign segment here is to give surety to those long-suffering, hardy employers, developers of our natural resource. Now, where there is an egregious case at some ill-defined point in the future, reflective of what the honourable Green member and the former Minister of oceans have referred to through fish farming, and if it did represent a biological threat, there are other pieces of legislation that can be invoked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe are not going to have a situation where a tiny group, day and night, studying the innards of the Resource Management Act, weaponise every obscure reference to undermine capitalism, to undermine the functioning of the market, after people have made a difficult but admirable decision to invest their own money in creating jobs. This bill, this Minister, unashamedly stands with them. There may be a few molluscs and rare, obscure snails that go by the way, but I\u2019ll take jobs any day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002215aa0d03766c4c4e8fbe4d4746720442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215aa0d03766c4c4e8fbe4d4746720442\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from Tangi Utikere next. I just want to remind members that this is a very, very small piece of the bill, and I don\u2019t want any repeat questions of anything that\u2019s already been asked, because this is not something that\u2019s got a lot of scope to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00228d8d936d88884409b1734e68486f7e0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d8d936d88884409b1734e68486f7e0d\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. There are still some questions that haven\u2019t been addressed by the Minister. I note that the Minister has said that this particular part is inoffensive, and, actually, he describes it as benign, which is rather unfortunate, because this is an actual part of the bill that is rather active in terms of its transference and what rights and responsibilities it does actually pose. For the Minister to describe this as benign, perhaps he is referring to the word count rather than the actual impact or effect that this might have. That\u2019s a question to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do note, actually, that there is an Amendment Paper in my colleague Mr Abel\u2019s name, so I won\u2019t touch on that, because it relates to inserting reference to administrative charges, which, actually, we haven\u2019t covered in this particular part yet. And, in the previous part, the Minister still failed to address the Amendment Paper in my name\u2014OK, I accept it was voted down, but it did still reference what was considered to be fair and reasonable and at a cap of 50 percent. On this side of the committee, at this stage, we would look to support Mr Abel\u2019s Amendment Paper because it inserts a further trigger in the sense of administrative charges being carried over, but I\u2019ll leave that to the Greens to explore a bit further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is around, given this is specifically related to Subpart 1A, at what point is the extension given effect to? While this is a discrete clause in terms of word count, it talks about the fact that the duration\u2014so we\u2019re talking about a time frame of a coastal permit\u2014to which the section applies subject to any extension that may have been, effectively, authorised under Subpart 1A. Now, Subpart 1B is about the review of conditions, and we\u2019ve talked about that; this is about Subpart 1A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: given the number of proposed new sections in Subpart 1A, which of those are, effectively, engaged? Does it start at the new proposed section 165ZFHC, which is when it identifies the actual date of conditions, or is it at the point that the coastal permit is updated? Is it at the point when the application is withdrawn? Is it at the point where the decision is made that actually, no, the application is to continue? Is it at the point where the decision is taken for a permit to be surrendered? And I accept what the Minister has said around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere are a number of different proposed new sections in Subpart 1A, which is what this part refers to, that identify different actions to be taken. Now, it may be quite simple in the sense that, actually, the point of engagement here is when, regardless of those different sections, the different criteria are met, but my question to the Minister is: at what point is Part 2 actually engaged when it comes to an extension that may apply under Subpart 1A?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u002272996e87eb07488fb5e1e1a1edc46e1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272996e87eb07488fb5e1e1a1edc46e1a\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank my colleague opposite for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a27f01ae3e44082ab52e1062c90ab9f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Not opposite!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6919c2a81254cf29a53e8556b9e5cdf\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Across\u2014across the Chamber\u2014across. I appreciate it, because I actually made the error of speaking to this amendment earlier on in the wrong part, but I should clarify that it belongs in this part. We were, sadly, not able to speak to a number of amendments in the earlier part because the debate seemed to be shut down prematurely, in our view. This amendment is one that rebalances the burden of cost for the consent authority, which is, effectively, the ratepayer, so that those commercial activities that are indeed being reviewed\u2014if there is a requirement that they be reviewed\u2014that the consent authority is entitled to recover the cost of review undertaken under the subpart, including \u201Cany costs arising from a request by the Director-General, under section 165ZFHK(3) for information not held by the consent authority in its normal course of business.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EAgain, this is a very reasonable proposition in an otherwise reckless piece of legislation that would make it a little more reasonable, because it recognises that if these worthy businesses, as I\u2019m sure many of them are, are in fact solvent, they should be able to cover the reasonable cost of consent. Where it is seen appropriate, as the legislation requires, that not only the consenting authority has to recognise the need for a review but they have to do that with the agreement of the director-general, then surely it is also fair, given that consent or consensus that there needs to be a review, that the costs of that should be recovered and recoverable. That\u2019s the nature of the amendment, and we would like to hear the Minister\u2019s response to another very nominal and reasonable amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002279d518bf14d9409f95c4c2eaf27c1009\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279d518bf14d9409f95c4c2eaf27c1009\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I remind the committee that we have already addressed Part 1. We have already addressed these relatively insignificant, largely marginal details reflected in the member\u2019s amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI bring us back to Part 2. Part 2 is explicitly covering those small number of rights holders, if I can use that term figuratively, that may go beyond a point where their entitlement stretches beyond 35 years. This is about ensuring that they don\u2019t run afoul of what is an overdue piece of legislative liberalisation. It is driven to give greater certainty, with the greatest of respect to the honourable member from the Green Party, that debate, that issue\u2014not necessarily the amendment, but the issue\u2014was covered off in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI repeat, again: yes, it is a departure from orthodoxy that the council staff\u2014before they push the go button, before they worsen the prospects of the men and women\u2014hail, sun, rain, shine, are up in the dark early in the morning creating jobs, boosting exports, braving the elements of the Tangaroa and Mother Nature. This bill celebrates their prowess, and the sooner it passes, the better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdcd655249014397ac97b342b3111452\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdcd655249014397ac97b342b3111452\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am interested in what the Minister, the Hon Shane Jones, was just saying there about the application of new subsection (5) to section 123A of the Resource Management Act being only to do with the 35-year relationship. My understanding was that this inserts the whole of subpart 1A. If he\u2019s saying it\u2019s limited to the timing of only some of the extensions that may or may not apply, it would be useful for clarification on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing back, I did ask\u2014and this is how that 35 year relates\u2014if there is a 20-year extension, the council has two years where they can pay for a review if the director-general applies, but what happens for those other 18 years? That is the question, and the answer I think I received was the Minister, basically, saying that there are no environmental protections for those 18 years and that this is to enable capitalism. If I am correct in thinking that what the Minister was saying was in answer to my question\u2014I\u2019m not sure that it was; that is why I am re-putting it for clarity here\u2014that is extraordinary. It is beyond just not being orthodox; it is extraordinary. The Minister is sitting here and is happy to say there should not be environmental protections for 18 years, because of capitalism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe57c81b938542b0820518562633e50b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s not saying that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e00aad206b3465d8f8838c4190ec537\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I am hearing someone from the other side of the Chamber saying that is not true. I hope that that person is a National MP and that they are going to their Ministers at the moment and saying, \u201CWhat have you agreed to in Cabinet?\u201D This is reprehensible. It is not benign. It is not just about stopping bach owners from complaining about aquaculture; it is saying, \u201CIf there is a discharge that is dangerous to the environment, the regional councils can\u2019t do anything about it, and that is fine because somebody is making money.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWell, they are only going to be making money in the very short term, and this will have financial consequences for the wider community as well. It is shameful, and I call on all those members on the opposite side, who now appear not to be looking at me and are very quiet, to take a call on this matter and say what National\u2019s position on this bill is. I\u2019ve not heard one speech on it in this committee stage. People are jumping up and down to take a vote, but are you listening to what the Minister is saying? He is saying that there should be no environmental protections for 18 years\u201418 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d9203dfe8d34b36964ba77085558129\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s doing an outstanding job\u2014outstanding Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8a8a2f5a7bb4ad6acd98b48ac2c1dee\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, the members are happy about this now. This is shameful, and I hope that your voters are listening to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00223503c74e05ea4b20a24a0729873cabe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223503c74e05ea4b20a24a0729873cabe0\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the advice of the Minister that I\u2019ve been speaking to the wrong section. I\u2019d better polish up that law degree that I didn\u2019t\u00A0do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI\u2019m speaking to new clause 5AA in Part 2, which inserts clause 5, page 8, before line 25, to section 36 amended. And it\u2019s about administrative charges, after section 36(1A)(b) to insert \u201C(c) section 165ZFHI in relation to the review of conditions for a coastal permit extended under subpart 1A of Part 7A.\u201D This is to give effect to the consent authority being entitled to recover costs and it\u2019s about administrative charges. That is what I would like to correct and put as an amendment to this committee. We\u2019ve probably heard the Minister\u2019s view on it already but I would like to echo, while I have a brief moment, the consternation and distress of my colleague on this side of the Chamber at the sort of blatant acceptance of the narrative that it\u2019s OK to make money at any cost. Clearly that is\u00A0not the view of our society and it is right that we have a balance and we take into account the ecological and environmental effects of activities such as marine farming. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a29fad02feaf4a2fa35978a0d14e0503\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a29fad02feaf4a2fa35978a0d14e0503\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E When are we going to hear an end to these snowflake-prize falsehoods? Think about the New Zealanders today who have lost their jobs and who may also lose their jobs in this sector, unless we give greater certainty and greater confidence to this area of natural resource development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAll this talk about administrative charges\u2014sadly, that was dealt with last night. If a council officer is possessed of information requiring him or her to intervene in the legal operations of an enterprise\u2014and these people love their enterprises; they love the environment; they\u2019re not quietly plotting and scheming, at 11 o\u2019clock at night, that they\u2019re going to go tomorrow and release toxic material into the environment. It would destroy the fact that they\u2019re growing food. This is the catastrophisation that we\u2019ve seen for far too long from that side of politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis, I say again, is a benign, insignificant, and inoffensive portion of the bill that simply creates clarity for the small number of permit holders who may go beyond what is contemplated in this bill. It makes their rights legal. It assures them that they are involved on behalf of the broader New Zealand society in regions where it would appear that side of the Chamber has nothing but detestation for them. They\u2019ve found a champion in me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f102f164431043a8ad327d0eaf65bf3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f102f164431043a8ad327d0eaf65bf3b\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222adabe83df3f450799ba071086f305cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222adabe83df3f450799ba071086f305cd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s not much left to go, but I\u2019m looking forward to hearing something new, Mr Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9eb16cdc5604aa081f650ec742fa268\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9eb16cdc5604aa081f650ec742fa268\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Given the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries has provided a response, I want to pick up on what the Minister has just said, because he has said that there are people who are losing their jobs. That is correct\u2014that is absolutely correct. It is the one thing, actually, that I agree with that has come from this Minister through this committee stage, is that people are losing their jobs. And why is that? Why is that? It\u2019s because of the decisions that this Minister and his Government are taking, that\u2019s what is leading to that. If this particular bill is seeking to address some of those issues, and this is a direct response to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd57ac80e36946e189c72b2f39abf083\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your question? Very political statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f0198cf2ea2405dbc4a7cc5c34dcb51\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Ms Grigg seems to have a lot to say. Perhaps she could take a call on this. Actually, any of the members could take a call on this. The Minister is right, people are losing their jobs, but if this is the context in which he is painting and\u00A0saying that capitalism is the answer around that\u2014well, people will form their own views on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m thankful to my colleague Mr Abel for his clarity around his Amendment Paper, because I didn\u2019t want to be discourteous and speak to his own thoughts here without hearing what he had to say. I will now address Amendment Paper 58, which is in his name. My question to the Minister is: why is he not prepared to consider in a positive way the introduction of a reference to administrative charges as part of this part\u2014which is entirely in order\u2014given the fact that he has referenced that people are losing their jobs, given the fact that this will be an additional cost that is borne by the ratepayers. I\u2019m still to hear from the Minister about his view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EA maximum of 50 percent could have been borne by the ratepayers in terms of cost recovery\u2014just one aspect, if things were fair and reasonable. Why is the Minister not prepared to incorporate administrative charges on Mr Abel\u2019s Amendment Paper, given that this will be an additional cost on ratepayers? Rates are going up, people are losing their jobs\u2014that\u2019s out of the mouth of the Minister himself. So consider that, actually, that is something that is related to Part 1A. The Minister thinks that this is a benign piece, as my colleague\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a510893b745e4074b8121e2f54ede928\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re in Part 2, aren\u2019t we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022239077fe1fdf411a9012a9e962f36589\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s actually Subpart 1A. We are in Part 2, as I\u2019ve heard from members opposite, but this relates specifically to Subpart 1A, which is referencing both the costs and the ability for decisions to be made about coastal permits, and others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: in light of his comment and his acceptance that people are losing their jobs, that this is an additional cost on the ratepayers, that there are provisions available for it to be capped\u2014although he\u2019s not keen to explore that, I infer; although he hasn\u2019t addressed that previously. Rates are going up. Why will the Minister not signal support for Mr Abel\u2019s Amendment Paper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00223b440f49012e46d3ad57fbd8da698e07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b440f49012e46d3ad57fbd8da698e07\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224ab153babec243af924a25548fd64ee3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ab153babec243af924a25548fd64ee3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Abel\u2019s amendment to Part 2 inserting new clause 5AA set out on Amendment Paper 58 is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EDarleen Tana\u2019s amendment to Part 2 inserting new clause 5AAA set out on Amendment Paper 77 is out of order as being the same in substance as an amendment previously not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002271d99c3ec67c4d96926f882b846e4898\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002212a99ed1480e4f51a9bdd2657a203c77\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226642be3083b44463b1dfce9b15ecd4a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226642be3083b44463b1dfce9b15ecd4a9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate, clauses 1 to 3. This is the debate on clauses 1 to 3\u2014\u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D. The question is that\u2014Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022460c39a93d3346789cb4b3778614fb42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022460c39a93d3346789cb4b3778614fb42\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022889611213c4d467081e1110b42ae3ee8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: A bit slow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d4be80b33e34b028f9a7e170b8fb05a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: We were waiting, hoping that the Minister may have something else worthy to say\u2014yeah. I would like to make a couple of suggestions to the Minister around potential title names that maybe the Minister would like to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think one of the things we have heard throughout this entire debate is the fact that the Minister gives very little regard to local government. Indeed, one of the things we did see during the select committee stage is the fact that 90 percent of the submitters were opposed to this bill. I wondered if the Minister has considered the amendment that rather than the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill, we may get the \u201CResource Management Act (We Don\u2019t Care About Local Government) Amendment Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just the local government, both in terms of the submissions that the local government made but also the burden that it places on them in terms of the extra duties that local council and ratepayers will have to be responsible for. We also heard from iwi M\u0101ori that this is something that they do not agree with, and we\u2019ve heard from Ng\u0101tiwai, Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki, just to name a few that did not agree with this bill. I wondered, again, if the Minister had considered not just that we don\u2019t care about the local government amendment bill but also iwi M\u0101ori. Frankly, in the select committee, we heard that this is a violation of M\u0101ori rights and Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMore broadly speaking, we have found that the Minister spent more time during this debate criticising us and also our position and the evidence that we have put forward and evidence that the Minister\u2019s own ministry has put forward. The Minister has mentioned a number of things around, you know, the greenies and all of these people, Greenpeace and all of those, but I wondered if this is just a simple case of the fact that the Minister has his head in the sand and this is a bill that is more accurately referred to as the \u201CResource Management (Head in the Sand) Amendment Bill\u201D or \u201CTunnel Vision Amendment Bill\u201D. Or even the fact that we live in an alternate universe where there are not so much as ecosystems, because the Minister does not believe there is any impact to the ecosystem or anything ecological, and it\u2019s better to call it, rather than ecosystem, \u201Cecosilos\u201D, because that\u2019s what we think that the suggestion here is going to do without any sort of accountability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhen we are looking at this particular bill, and the extension we\u2019re giving for a lot of those permissions, for a lot of those permit holders, they may be yearning to make those kinds of changes, the kind of review that will incentivise them to make those kinds of changes, undergo modern environmental assessments, but this particular bill will not address that. It also does disregard the effect on current national environmental standards. Very much so, I think: if the Minister would consider renaming it to the \u201CResource Management (Rather than Ecosystem but Ecosilos) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002284632836112c467094f642e84943c096\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284632836112c467094f642e84943c096\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have been in the Chamber for most of this bill, this committee stage of this bill, and have been listening closely to the Minister. I also have some suggestions for the title, and it\u2019s the title clause that I\u2019d like to talk on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, we had a lot of discussion in the committee about how it is the council and, therefore, ratepayers that are going to have to pay for any review of these extended consent conditions. But, of course, they can only do that for the first two years. My suggestion is\u2014I\u2019ve got it, again, in this title that I\u2019m going to suggest, and that is because, of course, I\u2019ve spent a lot of time yesterday, as well as in the House, talking about the water bill, and there we see, as well, more and more money being put on councils and ratepayers. My suggestion is that it\u2019s the \u201CResource Management (Costing Ratepayers Again) Amendment Bill\u201D. That\u2019s my first suggestion. That is, of course, because it is shameful that it is councils that have to pay for any review when the Minister has explicitly said that his concern is that it\u2019s those wealthy bach owners who are requiring reviews. That is his justification for the consent holders not to be paying for those reviews, which is the standard resource management process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, he already has a mechanism to get over that, because the Director-General of the Ministry for Primary Industries has to agree to any review in the first place. We\u2019ve also heard that they can only do a review in those first two years, leaving an additional 18 years, so a further title that the Minister might want to consider is the \u201CResource Management (Justified by Nimby Wealthy Bach Owners, but Actually Stopping Review of Discharge Conditions for 18 Years) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAnother suggestion related to that particular point of these 18 years of no review on discharges\u2014I\u2019m not talking about the occupation consent, but the discharge consent, so that is pollution in our commons\u2014is that it should be the \u201CResource Management (Allowing Unchecked 18-Year Discharges) Amendment Bill\u201D. I think that is an appropriate name for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, of course, we\u2019ve heard, in very florid language, about the importance of jobs and people making money from the commons, and \u201Ccapitalism\u201D was used by the Minister as well. Another suggestion, of course, is that it could be the \u201CResource Management (Taking Capitalism to the Commons and Allowing Pollution) Amendment Bill\u201D. That, I think, would much more correctly explain what it is that this bill is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe also, earlier in the debates last night, heard about the aberrant councils, and we heard, of course, about the Minister\u2019s disdain, in particular, for the Marlborough council, despite his whip hailing from, or still being a member of, that council. I was suggesting, if this is all being driven because of that particular dislike of that council, it could be the \u201CResource Management (Punish Aberrant Marlborough Council) Amendment Bill\u201D. That seems to capture a lot of what the Minister was talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe heard from the Minister about \u201Cindiscriminate detritus\u201D, and by that, I think he was talking about, maybe, people involved in the resource management system. Of course, being a proud holder of an ecology degree, I think of \u201Cindiscriminate detritus\u201D as being very important. Detritus can be very important in our ecosystems. Of course, there could be detritus from these fish farms\u2014as we heard from Steve Abel, particularly the finfish\u2014that do cause negative environmental consequences that would normally be controlled by consent conditions on discharge consents but will not be able to be reviewed by these changes. Of course, it could be the \u201CResource Management (Permitting Indiscriminate Detritus) Amendments Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, finally, my final suggestion for now is that we also heard from the Minister about trade-off politics. In resource management and planning law, you often hear about trade-offs in the planning sense\u2014so, do we want to protect landscape over wind farms? That\u2019s the most obvious and easiest one to talk about. We do not generally hear about environmental bottom lines, which seems to be what this Minister is intent on doing in this and other pieces of, legislation, so my final recommendation that I\u2019d like the Minister to consider is the \u201CResource Management (Trade-off Politics by Getting Rid of Review Rights) Amendment Bill\u201D. This bill is a disgrace and should be renamed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00221bb059e8d5a744e9a936cd3bbcb88fea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bb059e8d5a744e9a936cd3bbcb88fea\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E A final and brief contribution. The name of this bill reflects the deep commitment towards giving certainty and confidence to this sector of our economy. Look, I don\u2019t think it uplifts the mana of this House or purpose of this bill by all sorts of extreme suggestions from the other side. This is a time for dry, focused language. I think that we\u2019ve reached a point where the public has exhausted its patience listening to these colourful, fanciful suggestions, and we need to return back to the technical language of the bill as reflected in this very sensible, harmless title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a76a7baa5ac444348e44c2ccc4b97873\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a76a7baa5ac444348e44c2ccc4b97873\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister in the chair, Shane Jones, for his benign contribution. I do think that the suggestions that have been offered from members on this side of the House\u2014and I do note that there was a wry smile from the Minister when my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking was suggesting some of those possibilities there, particularly the nimby aspect\u2014are aligned with what clearly is an anti-ratepayer approach to this. When we think about the fact that rates are continuing to increase in our community\u2014and, yes, let\u2019s be fairly frank about this: the majority of locations where these coastal permits will fall will be from the local consenting authorities, many of whom took the time to share their views with the Primary Production Committee\u2014I do think that it is appropriate that the committee does consider what might be sort of phrased as anti - local government, anti-ratepayers, anti-council sort of definitions or tones for this particular title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI have a couple of my own that I\u2019m sure the Minister has had an opportunity to reflect on, because they are part of the tabled Amendment Paper. The first one is to call this the \u201C(Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms Despite Potential Degradation of Environment)\u201D Amendment Bill\u201D. Look, I was actually quite happy to not have that and to vote against that myself\u2014and this side would\u2014on the proviso that the opportunity to reduce the time frame for extensions to that of five years or even 10 years, which was seen as a compromise, was going to be taken up by this Government at this stage, in the committee of the whole House. Sadly, that has not been the case, and so I feel that I have to continue with what was proposed there, because, let\u2019s be honest, there is the potential for ongoing degradation of the environment when this Government, effectively, extends permits and the conditions that are currently operating\u2014not about a review but the actual current operation of the permit over a 10-, 15-, 20-year horizon\u2014and beyond. There is bound to be some potential\u2014there is absolutely bound to be some potential\u2014for degradation when it comes to the environment. Calling it that was certainly an option.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other was the \u201C(Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms to Kick the Can Down the Road)\u201D, because this has become symptomatic of this particular Government in terms of their approach to, basically, anything and everything these days. That\u2019s on Amendment Paper 55. I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts, given that they have been tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to turn now to clause 2, which is about the commencement. Now, it\u2019s proposed that this particular Act, once it\u2019s given Royal assent, will come into force the day after Royal assent is given. As we\u2019ve worked through this committee of the whole House stage, largely around Part 1, we have turned our mind to some of the hurdles and obstacles that applicants; that councils, particularly consenting authorities; and that the director-general themself may actually encounter. Given that there is still an element of some uncertainty\u2014and the Minister might actually refute that there is uncertainty in this particular space\u2014my question to the Minister is: why not consider a time frame post Royal assent? For example, even if it was to be six months post Royal assent to ensure that there are processes that are in place for the director-general to go about consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EYes, there are time frames that are already given in terms of the 20 working days for additional information to be provided, but wouldn\u2019t it provide some confidence and certainty\u2014the very things that the Minister wants to provide in this bill\u2014to ensure that the processes that this Government are wishing to set up and put in place can adequately be put in place? A six-month, 12-month period may do so. It would still provide certainty for the individuals that the Minister seems keen to provide certainty for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question is: why is it necessary to allow this bill to, effectively, come\u2014well, once it\u2019s given Royal assent, it will be an Act\u2014into force the day following Royal assent? I mean, we deal with this in this Parliament all the time, where the commencement date can be very different depending on a range of different circumstances. I don\u2019t think that the need for certainty and confidence would be done by providing a further date. I\u2019ll leave that question with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb7c71f360244a019982f059ba48edd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb7c71f360244a019982f059ba48edd4\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Yes, well, here we are at the title and commencement. I think one of the striking things about this piece of legislation is that it represents a significant overreach of central government, undermining the local authority, the rights of iwi M\u0101ori, the essential environmental protections that we have put in place over many years in this country. It shifts the burden of risk and cost from private entities to the public, and it misuses our common coastal marine area. And I should also add that it\u2019s a violation of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and, in our view, infringes on the rights of mana whenua and mana moana by excluding hap\u016B and iwi from participating. It disregards the effective and current national environmental standards under which marine farms are being managed, and without a single application being declined, even when they are in inappropriate locations, even when they are the most high-impact forms of fish farming. Not a single thing gets declined. I suggest an appropriate title would be \u201CKing Jones Ocean Giveaway Bill\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76025af0a0e4ee384065507b57ab1c8\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CMatua\u201D\u2014\u201CMatua\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d896bd346bad4afa9dfdbd657cdcdaa0\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s liking it\u2014he\u2019s liking it: \u201CKing Jones Ocean Giveaway Bill\u201D. Basically, this is an instance when central government is saying, \u201CHere you go; you can have it.\u201D\u2014with no caveats, no obligations\u2014\u201CHere\u2019s a free giveaway of these marine coastal consents.\u201D, irrespective of whether you\u2019re a good marine farmer or you\u2019re a poor marine farmer. Irrespective of whether you are designated to be in an inappropriate location\u2014which is a tiny percentage of the marine farms\u2014nevertheless you will get a free permit. Irrespective of whether you\u2019re a higher-impact activity, like fish farming, you\u2019ll get a free permit. It\u2019s, basically, the \u201CKing Jones Giveaway Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIf that is not accepted\u2014and I\u2019m hoping the Minister will appreciate it\u2014I also would like to support Tangi Utikere\u2019s proposed titles for it: \u201C(Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms\u201D\u2014in clause 1\u2014\u201CDespite Potential Degradation of the Environment)\u201D. An obvious title, and an excellent one. I\u2019d also like to support his other proposed amendment: \u201C(Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms to Kick the Can down the Road)\u201D. I thought that my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s suggestions were similarly excellent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThis is a dark day in the relationship between central government and local government, between the Crown and iwi, between the balance that we must strike in providing a living for members of our society and taking care to look after the environment on which all of us rely for generations to come. I\u2019m very sorry to see the likelihood that this Government will pass this piece of legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u00221f914466f2f44ca3baa00288509aacb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f914466f2f44ca3baa00288509aacb9\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220174903c4465478fb40ad2f383a04ae9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002265ded143f58d4ff48a0c8048358db008\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265ded143f58d4ff48a0c8048358db008\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendments to clause 1 set out on Amendment Papers 54 and 55 are out of order as not being serious amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220f727024ba3044d39299f0a91abbba6f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f7bacea5548b4c8b920c0a8d83bfed74\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022119a1be8785f44ca901aadecca0f9db4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Tana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000163\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220040d4d7d7e94af390f8c2fc914c8140\u0022\u003ECorrections Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c197c4fe4a734dcab34b72c28aadf0b2\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002216e5e68131c5445a9dfc983655a7c7cb\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227e60491e8485434cb78ae4ea5f1b8e65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e60491e8485434cb78ae4ea5f1b8e65\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Corrections Amendment Bill. We come first to Part 1; this is debate on clauses 4 to 47A amendments to the principal Act, and Schedules 1 and 2. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00220090fd9ff9f048e691de293219259f00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220090fd9ff9f048e691de293219259f00\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, firstly, I just want to acknowledge my predecessor the Hon Kelvin Davis and the previous Government who did the bulk and substantive work on this bill and, of course, as the incoming Government, I was pleased to be able to make what I think are some really important changes and additions, especially around the rehabilitation and the delivery of programmes to prisoners on remand, inside the corrections system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s unacceptable; we have an unacceptably high amount of prisoners on remand in our corrections system as a result of them trying to get through a court system that\u2019s clogged. But whilst they\u2019re with us, I think it\u2019s important\u2014especially those remand accused who are getting no programmes at all delivered\u2014that, actually, we make an investment and we make the change to make sure that they get a programme delivered and support towards rehabilitation whilst they\u2019re with corrections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe bill makes important changes to the Corrections Act 2004. It changes intelligence provisions in the bill, which is going to give corrections staff a much stronger ability to keep the front line and prisoners safe; this is critically important. Corrections intelligence staff will be able to better identify risks and respond to them. These provisions directly respond to the reality of challenges that corrections faces every day. As the incoming Minister, my number one priority was around staff safety, and if the staff are safe, then that naturally leads on to a better-run prison with an upside for everyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe bill includes a number of other important tools for safety. Strengthening the disciplinary process in prisons is one of them. This will ensure the disciplinary process in prisons is more effective and holds prisoners to account. The bill provides for the expanded use of body imaging searches of prisoners. This change will help prevent contraband such as drugs and cellphones from entering our prisons. This change also ensures the legislation provides flexibility to adapt to future technologies and better supports staff safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EExtending rehabilitation, like I said, to remand prisoners is one of this Government\u2019s priorities. The bill enables limited mixing of remand and accused and convicted prisoners for non - offence-based programmes. The bill also provides for offence-based rehabilitation for remand convicted prisoners. I also want to acknowledge the minority views that were submitted by both Labour and the Green Party during the select committee process. In relation to that, I want to touch on the Treaty of Waitangi provisions that were removed at the select committee stage. I want to be clear that it\u2019s my expectation that Corrections will continue working with M\u0101ori. This includes continuing its work with hap\u016B and iwi to deliver culturally responsive rehabilitation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EFinally, I brought forward an Amendment Paper that makes minor and technical changes to the bill. These changes enhance the workability of the bill and will not change any of the policies in the bill. Mr Chair, I look forward to debating the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002282fa2ac3714441818d4118005c488705\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282fa2ac3714441818d4118005c488705\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister, for those opening remarks. I appreciate the fact that you\u2019ve set out a little bit of the context to this Corrections Amendment Bill. It may look like small bill, in two parts, but the regulatory impact statement is a hefty document, as are several of the pieces of advice that the Minister of Corrections, previous and current, would have received, and certainly the select committee process had lots of things to consider as we worked our way through this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThere are several themes that the questions today will address. I think the Minister has certainly touched on one. Whilst it would be certainly the intention to go through in a systematic way and perhaps to do the sort of back and forth as the preference of the committee is, with regard to asking and answering questions, I think what I will do today is just set out a little bit more of that context. I know that I have colleagues who will be very keen, perhaps, in themes but also as questions arise, to pick up and circle back over various other considerations and concerns that we have with this piece of potential legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe Corrections Amendment Bill, as the Minister has correctly said, was first introduced by the previous Government because there was\u2014and we acknowledge\u2014a need to update and keep modern and ensure that our corrections facilities and our Department of Corrections are always up to date with best practice, because, as the Minister has mentioned, safety of both staff and of prisoners is critically important. It\u2019s a dangerous environment. It\u2019s an environment that\u2019s complex, that\u2019s full of all sorts of considerations, because it\u2019s full of human beings. By virtue of that alone, it\u2019s one of those complicated ones, indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe several proposals, the several legs to this bill as was first introduced by the previous Government, have largely been retained. We will have some questions about the practical applications of that as we go through this process of the committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs the Minister has also touched on, the fact that the Minister and Cabinet made an explicit decision to remove Te Tiriti provisions and not only reference to Treaty but the principles and the other bullet points, essentially, that we will go through one at a time, from what has now come before this committee, we think is such a shame, is so atrocious. It completely guts and, quite frankly, ruins large swathes of the intentionality of this bill, and it\u2019s something that we intend to spend a considerable amount of time on, working our way through, because the implications are so profound. It\u2019s not just a principle, it\u2019s not just in principle, but everything else that\u2019s in this bill was guided by the legislative foundation that that simple clause in the early stages of the bill guaranteed and supported. Without that, there is a different lens to which we now must examine the rest of this bill, and that\u2019s what we intend to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs I said, that\u2019s the foundation, and there will be colleagues not only from the Labour Party but from wh\u0101nau in the Green Party who will take up various aspects of this, because this is a really big question. It\u2019s not just a bill. It\u2019s not just a simple black and white, two-dimensional clause on a piece of paper. It was an opportunity to provide the legislative framework from which the rest of this made sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EPeople and colleagues will approach it from several different angles, but I just want to ask the Minister, as a means by which to prompt and to give notice, I suppose, in terms of his own responses and his own thinking, if he could certainly turn his mind to that and think about the means by which the justification can be made and also the specifics as we go through the clauses as to what the practical implications might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI have a few questions. As I said, we had hoped to go through in a systematic way, but we\u2019re going to skip to the clause that I think is the most contentious\u2014clause 7\u2014and that is one that has been completely removed from this bill. The section it referred to was 6A\u2014[Bell rung] Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022110e99da7d1c4128b01369a797ef86af\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Tracey McLellan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022033cc0c6aa704d91a139385b616e2b5e\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I promise I will get to my questions quickly so that we can afford a little bit of back and forth. The section is section 6A, \u201CTiriti o Waitangi/Treaty of Waitangi\u201D. Originally, it was drafted and it was included in the bill, as introduced, in order to provide the Crown\u2019s intention to give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI suppose my question to the Minister is: whilst you\u2019ve touched on it and whilst I\u2019ve read the documents and I\u2019ve read the advice, I\u2019m just interested to hear a little bit more from you as to why you thought it was necessary to remove that clause that underpins so much else in this bill and gives effect not only to the operational strategy and the documents\u2014but what was the harm in making that explicit? What was the harm in keeping it in? What was the harm in showing\u2014not saying, but showing\u2014your intentionality to do something that gave effect to the fact M\u0101ori are overrepresented in our prisons and after years and years and years of trying to redress that shameful statistic, we finally put something in legislation that had some oomph, that had some intentionality, that was in black and white, and you\u2019ve just turfed it out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ECan you talk me through the process that\u2019s not as simple as it was part of a coalition agreement, it was part of a 100-day plan, and to suffice all of those relationships, you decided to prioritise that instead of doing what I believe is the right thing for the people of Aotearoa and for the people and the families and all of the individuals who are affected by this who find themselves with friends, relatives, wh\u0101nau in the prison system? So can you just give me a little bit of an update on that and clarify your thoughts? We\u2019ll come back with more specific questions as time goes on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022865b99e0b11e4f16956c8d84c79e5861\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022865b99e0b11e4f16956c8d84c79e5861\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the member\u2019s opening comments. I just want to acknowledge and say that, yes, I agree with you. I want to acknowledge all of our corrections officers and personnel, whether they be community-based or whether they be working now in corrections facilities. It\u2019s a difficult and demanding work environment and they do an outstanding job, but it\u2019s incumbent upon us as lawmakers to make sure we bring legislation into this House that actually is going to make them safer and is going to make the people that they\u2019re looking after safer as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn relation to the removal of the Treaty provisions, as she\u2019s alluded to, as the incoming Government, a coalition Government, that was the decision taken by Cabinet. But the one thing that I would say to her is this. She\u2019s saying that because the Treaty provisions aren\u2019t in the bill, that means that Corrections are not able to actually deliver the services that we all expect of our corrections service, especially in relation to M\u0101ori. I agree with you, they\u2019re overrepresented in in our corrections system. That is not Corrections\u2019 problem. They just have to deal with what is presented to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHowever, they are very passionate about\u2014as I am\u2014making sure that we deliver more rehabilitation programmes, making sure that we continue to work strongly with iwi and hap\u016B, because they have an extremely important role in the rehabilitation of our prisoners and making sure that they successfully reintegrate and that they\u2019re able to make good decisions on their lives instead of bad ones. But having the Treaty provisions in there\u2014by the way, the Corrections Act has never had those provisions in there. They\u2019ve never had them and yet Corrections have been extremely effective in the work that they do over successive Governments for many, many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t see this as being a barrier at all in terms of the outstanding work that our Corrections staff do in the delivery of those programmes. And they\u2019re continuing to work alongside\u2014which I\u2019m facilitating myself as the incoming Minister\u2014to strengthen those relationships with iwi and hap\u016B to make sure that we can continue to deliver those great rehabilitation programmes into our corrections system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc1665b138eb48c4b796f88c29ea6f5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc1665b138eb48c4b796f88c29ea6f5c\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. Thank you for allowing me to take a call. My questions pertain to the Treaty provisions some more because I think that I have a different perspective to offer from that of my Labour colleague Dr McLellan, which is why I\u2019ve got an Amendment Paper to restore the Treaty provisions within the bill. In your answer just then, Minister, you said that that was not the Department of Corrections\u2019 problem\u2014the overrepresentation of M\u0101ori\u2014but it absolutely is. You yourself have acknowledged the disgrace that it is that M\u0101ori are overrepresented throughout our justice system, and that is the responsibility of Corrections to address that overrepresentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe Treaty provisions in the Corrections Amendment Bill would have allowed for equitable rehabilitation and reintegration for M\u0101ori. There was a requirement for the chief executive to ensure the development, maintenance, and implementation of a strategy that is focused on improving outcomes for M\u0101ori in the corrections system to address longstanding M\u0101ori needs. The provisions were making access to cultural activities a purpose for which prisoners could be temporarily released or removed from the prison, which is important so that they can attend things like tangi and other cultural activities; ensuring that prisoners have access to cultural activities, regardless of the prison in which they are detained; and were enabling the views of wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi to be taken into account, where appropriate and practicable, in decisions about which prison offenders are accommodated in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe reason that those Treaty provisions were inserted in the bill by the previous Government was because M\u0101ori are overrepresented in every single stage within the justice system. Whether it is the moment that they\u2019re apprehended by police, through the remand process, through sentencing, through the time served, or through reintegration back into society, M\u0101ori are not experiencing or receiving the same treatment and outcomes as non-M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EIn Te Tiriti o Waitangi, article 3 talks about the rights of M\u0101ori to have equitable outcomes to their non-M\u0101ori counterparts, so in not putting those Treaty provisions within the bill, it completely ignores that the founding document of our country provides for those equitable outcomes between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. Where is the onus on the chief executive or the members of the Department of Corrections to meet those needs and to address the institutional racism that is baked in throughout our justice system? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWe know that there is racism baked in throughout our justice system because researchers have made that clear. Advocates, criminologists\u2014people across our society have made it clear that there is racism baked into our justice system. If we want to look at the statistics that back up those claims, we know that the main one is that despite the fact that M\u0101ori make up only 17 percent of the general population, they account for 38 percent of people proceeded against by police, 42 percent of adults convicted, and 57 percent of adults sentenced to prison. Of people within youth justice custody, 67 percent of those are M\u0101ori, and in our women\u2019s prisons, 68 percent of that population is M\u0101ori. We are among the most incarcerated people in the world, and I refuse to believe that that is something that is genetic or inherent within our people. It\u2019s a reflection of the impacts of colonisation\u2014legacies of poverty and trauma within communities that have come about as a result of colonisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not saying that having Treaty provisions within this Act will turn those statistics around overnight, but what it does demonstrate is a genuine and sincere commitment from the leadership of Corrections and from the Minister himself to rectify those disparities, which are a disgrace. I guess my question is: why is it that the Government\u2019s coalition agreement is more important than rectifying discrepancies between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori, and what advice did you receive on the detrimental impact of removing the Treaty provisions from this bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EOne of the core aspects of rehabilitation for people who are in prison is their ability to take responsibility for the harm that they have caused and to be accountable for the harm that they have caused. How is it that we can have these expectations of the 10,000 people in prison that they will be responsible for their actions and harms caused if the ministry itself is not willing to take accountability and be responsible for the harm that they have caused in perpetuating the impacts of colonisation, and how are we supposed to have certainty that people in prison will be able to access programmes and initiatives that address their cultural needs as a pathway towards their rehabilitation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWe went to Waikeria Prison on Monday and we got to visit the Kia M\u0101rama unit, and that\u2019s one of the few M\u0101ori units throughout our prisons in New Zealand. We were able to talk to people in prison who had been a part of that unit, and they talked to us about the importance of learning their pepeha, learning karakia, learning waiata\u2014that access to their culture that they\u2019ve never had before. In the abuse in State care report, which details the abuse endured by people in State care during that time period, one of the harms that was highlighted was the disconnection of children from their culture and whakapapa, which led to the creation of gangs as we know them and the over-incarceration of M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EIf we know that meeting people\u2019s cultural needs is an important aspect of their willingness to engage with rehabilitation programmes and if we know that people having their cultural needs met is an important aspect for them to have pride in their identity and be able to see themselves differently than the way that they are treated\u2014which is often like animals\u2014then that\u2019s going to be an important step towards rehabilitation. Can the Minister talk about whether he might consider supporting my Amendment Paper 81 to restore the Treaty provisions in the Corrections Amendment Bill, and can he talk a bit more about the overrepresentation of M\u0101ori and why he might believe that the work that Corrections is doing is sufficient in addressing the overrepresentation of M\u0101ori? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7f91d87bb634ef8a046ad0246355611\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7f91d87bb634ef8a046ad0246355611\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I want to acknowledge the member and her interest in our corrections facilities and corrections staff, and prisoners and residents there. Obviously her recent visit to Waikeria highlights a genuine interest and desire to understand and know what\u2019s actually happening inside our corrections system. I want to acknowledge too that she has put forward an Amendment Paper. I can\u2019t support the Amendment Paper because it would be going against a decision that had already been taken by Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI just want to correct one thing, and she said in her opening comments that there was nothing Corrections could do\u2014it wasn\u2019t their issue\u2014around the fact that M\u0101ori were overrepresented in our corrections system. That\u2019s not what I meant. What I meant was Corrections have got no control over who is coming into the system. When the people do come into our system, I\u2019m extremely proud of the work that they do, whether it be community based or whether it be at our corrections facilities. I just want to assure her that the people that I see and that I meet inside our agency are deeply passionate about being able to deliver rehabilitation, look after those people whilst they\u2019re with us, and give them the best possible chance at being able to reintegrate and make good decisions in their lives when they come back into society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EA big focus that I have as Minister of Corrections is also delivering programmes that give them real life skills; that give them the best chance of being able to come into meaningful employment, get some independence, get some pride back, have some options in their lives, and lead them more towards making good decisions instead of bad decisions which put them in that spiral back into our criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWe know that we\u2019re grappling as a country with M\u0101ori overrepresentation in our criminal justice system\u2014I acknowledge that\u2014but to say that our police and corrections officers and staff are racist: no, I completely reject that. In my experience, our police officers serve without fear or favour and they\u2019re colour-blind. It\u2019s exactly the same that I\u2019ve seen inside our corrections services. If we\u2019re willing and brave enough to have honest conversations about why there\u2019s an overrepresentation, then we need to go right back into people\u2019s lives and find out where we make the investment, where we can support them so that they can realise the potential that we have in our country, so they can make good decisions, and so they don\u2019t come on to a fast track into our criminal justice system. That, fundamentally, is the social investment model that I\u2019m a huge believer in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThose are the sort of conversations that we should be having. Those are the sort of issues that we should be brave enough to address, and that, fundamentally, is going to be, in my view, the way that we\u2019re going to make the biggest impact and stopping people from coming into our criminal justice system and instead being on a much more positive pathway in terms of realising their true potential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00227d83c4339a0245a29751bfb1bce702b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d83c4339a0245a29751bfb1bce702b7\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to start my contribution to this issue by asking the Minister, has he read the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s report \u201CTu Mai Te Rangi!\u201D. I see he doesn\u2019t want to answer my question, so I\u2019ll leave that one for him to think about whether in fact he\u2019s actually even read the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s report on the justice system, which specifically talks about Corrections and the role that Corrections do in fact have as part of the justice system to address the overrepresentation of M\u0101ori. So, very clearly, my question is: have you read the report? Have you read the recommendations? Have you read your own regulatory impact statement on improving rehabilitation, reintegration, and safety outcomes in the corrections system? If the Minister had read the regulatory impact statement, he\u2019d have seen, on page 84, section D: improving long-term outcomes for M\u0101ori, diagnosing the policy problem, operational changes under way, guided by H\u014Dkai Rangi, that were needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe Minister said in his first responses that we don\u2019t need a Treaty provision in law, that this can happen without it, that relationships were happening, that expectations had been set, that things were happening at an operational level. But if you read your regulatory impact statement and the tribunal\u2019s report, it said what had been happening was insufficient and it needed more done, and the recommendation is to include it in legislation to require it to happen, to give practical effects to the application of those Treaty principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister has said Cabinet\u2019s made a decision based on their coalition agreements. There\u2019s one party who wants the Treaty principles bill\u2014rewrite what all of those might even mean\u2014and there is another party in that coalition agreement who says they will review, repeal, remove, or replace all Treaty references in all legislation. That\u2019s New Zealand First. What is driving this: coalition agreements or actual problem definition, actual solutions to that, backed up by evidence from experts who say there was not enough partnership and relationships and delivering on these things prior to it, that the strategy alone, that the operations model alone was insufficient? It needed legislative provisions to ensure that we are on a track to reducing those disparities, which you have acknowledged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI find it really hard to be here in the Chamber and hear the problem being acknowledged, the challenge being acknowledged, and \u201CIf only we could do something.\u201D Well, you can do something. The Minister, the Government can put it into the law to make that actually happen; hold everybody accountable, hold the organisations accountable. The Minister, the Government, Cabinet deliberately decided to remove these provisions. What does that tell us all? Has the Minister read the report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecadd2588f2747e5b61adca305dfee4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecadd2588f2747e5b61adca305dfee4a\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I have lots of reports to read, and, yes, I have read the report. The member Willow-Jean Prime is right that they have made recommendations around improvements. I agree\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e79759639af4c218e19e0b77cea1572\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: But you\u2019re not doing them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247bfbda1f7d64651a05c15c160e581f6\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, every agency should be focused on ongoing improvements, and that\u2019s exactly what Corrections are doing. They are fully committed to that. But I completely reject the premise that because the Treaty provisions have been removed at this stage with this bill\u2014by the way, the Treaty provisions have never been a part of the Corrections Act, and it hasn\u2019t stopped those very deep relationships being formed with M\u0101ori, hap\u016B, and iwi. It hasn\u2019t stopped the delivery of those rehabilitation and culturally based programmes being delivered. It hasn\u2019t stopped any of that. All of that is ongoing work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI agree with the member that Corrections is always looking for improvement, it\u2019s always looking to strengthen those relationships, and it\u2019s always looking to be able to deliver more programmes. A big part of what this bill is currently about is being able to deliver more programmes to people, especially those on remand, because we have an unacceptably high level of people on remand at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0f9ddfc0097416689205997ad3c8b1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0f9ddfc0097416689205997ad3c8b1b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister, the Hon Mark Mitchell, for his wide-ranging introductory remarks, and I\u2019ll just observe, before I get into some detail, that the Justice Committee, which considered this bill, the Corrections Amendment Bill, has also been engaged with the Ombudsman on the corrections system. The Ombudsman said, more in sadness than in anger, that he had seen no real change in the corrections system despite repeated reports where the Department of Corrections said, \u201CYes, we agree with all of your criticisms about prisoner safety and rehabilitation and lack of resources\u201D but ultimately did nothing. This bill as presented to the House by Kelvin Davis was something that did something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI want to go through and ask the Minister some specific questions, particularly around the differences between the bill as introduced and the bill now. And I want to go through it in a very methodical manner, starting on page 6 of the bill, which deals with interpretation. I observe that the innovation of having accused prisoners being able to access some rehabilitation is a really good thing, because people come to prison\u2014they may be innocent but they may still have things in their lives that can be improved. I commend Corrections and the Minister for progressing that, but the first thing is this change: the deletion of \u201Ccultural activities\u201D. The bill before the committee now removes the definition of cultural activities, and that definition simply said, \u201Ccultural activities means activities that are integral to establishing and maintaining a person\u2019s connection with their culture\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, Willow-Jean Prime has just touched on some Treaty issues, but this is not actually a Treaty issue at all. This is just recognising that we have a diverse range of people that come into prison, who, if they are going to be treated, firstly, humanely and, secondly, put back into the community in a better place than they arrived, need to understand their own cultural context, whether that be a Sikh, a person from China, a M\u0101ori person, a person from the Pacific\u2014whatever. I\u2019m just really perplexed as to why reference to cultural activities would be removed, particularly in light of page 7, where the legislation talks about \u201Cnon-offence-based programme\u201D and it actually refers to programmes which relate to te ao M\u0101ori or cultural, educational, employment, religion-based, or reintegrative programmes. On the one hand, we are getting rid of reference to cultural activities, but, actually, in the very next breath, the bill refers to cultural, religion-based, te ao M\u0101ori activities, which fundamentally are cultural activities. That\u2019s the first thing; what\u2019s going on there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI am going to go through, essentially, line by line, and I\u2019m going to start on my next one, which is quite distinct, and that is the definition of \u201Cremote access facility\u201D. Obviously, the use of remote access facilities for things like visiting or even some hearings is important, and we\u2019ve got a definition of audio link and audiovisual link. Obviously, an audio link is not as useful as an audiovisual link in terms of looking at people and seeing what\u2019s going on, but then we\u2019ve got \u201Cvisual link\u201D, and I\u2019m a bit perplexed as to what the purpose of a visual link is\u2014because it\u2019s got no audio, and it\u2019s hard to communicate with no audio. Is there a suggestion that we\u2019re going to have some kind of remote visits, for example, or some form of important communication where it\u2019s simply visual link alone, because that would really be deeply problematic? We\u2019re looking at audiovisual links, visual links, and audio links in other contexts such as court hearings, and I think we need to be really cautious here. In terms of the insertion in that definition\u2014this is a new insertion\u2014of \u201Cvisual link\u201D, I\u2019m very interested to hear what\u2019s going on there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve asked two questions, one about cultural activities and this disjunct between that and the \u201Cnon-offence-based programme\u201D definition, and one about visual links and what exactly that means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00223286f11c0a2849e6a963abe382787fbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223286f11c0a2849e6a963abe382787fbf\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Well, firstly, the reality is that this Government has made a significant investment\u2014over $70 million\u2014to be able to deliver programmes to prisoners on remand, either remand convicted or remand accused. Remand accused have to have different types of non - offence-based programmes delivered to them because, in the eyes of the law, they\u2019re innocent until proven guilty, and, unfortunately, they haven\u2019t been in court yet. Of course it would be wrong to deliver offence-based rehabilitation to someone that\u2019s remand accused. All the non - offence-based programmes, including cultural ones, will be made available to them. I\u2019m not too sure what the member is referring to there. In relation to the visual and audio, quite simply, every option is available in the bill. Of course, if it\u2019s going to be visual, there\u2019s going to be audio that accompanies that as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022f24115270dbf4d8ba64a2c072e227236\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f24115270dbf4d8ba64a2c072e227236\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you to the Minister for answering some of those questions, but he does actually raise further clarifications that it would be good to hear from the Minister on. I want to start with a big-picture question. Going through the regulatory impact statement, one of the things that did come out is some of the recommendations or suggestions from the prisoners themselves, because this is a bill that affects our prisoner wh\u0101nau immensely. I wanted to ask a big-picture question from the Minister first, which is what kind of consultation and what sort of recommendation was taken on board from prisoners when this bill was particularly drafted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EGoing on to the specific elements, again, we\u2019re also sort of working through this because Part 1 is quite substantial and it covers a lot of different areas. In order for us to sort of do collective thinking and moving at a pace, we\u2019re also going to go systematically through the clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to discuss in terms of clause 4(4) around interpretation. Now, we heard from the Minister around the fact that it\u2019s not appropriate to have offence-based rehabilitation to those on remand, but I wanted to check from the Minister one additional clarification, because that\u2019s to do with subclause (4) of clause 4, where it talks about \u201Caccused prisoner\u2014 \u2026 (b) does not include a prisoner who is on remand awaiting sentence\u201D. I know there\u2019s a later provision that other people may address in clause 11A around rehabilitation for those who are on remand awaiting sentence, but I want to just check over here what was the rationale behind specifying what we have here in, essentially, three stages: accused prisoner who is awaiting trial on remand, prisoners who are on remand awaiting sentence, and then prisoners post sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019m assuming that, from the Minister\u2019s perspective, the treatment of each of these three groups would be quite distinct, but I do want to know, in terms of accused prisoners and prisoners who are on remand awaiting sentence, what is the duration we\u2019re looking at here? One of the things the Minister addressed is the length of time that we have with prisoners on remand, and that\u2019s one of the issues of why we have such a high remand population in Aotearoa, but what are some of the thinkings around splitting those two off specifically?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EComing over also to the point that the Minister has mentioned around the presumption of innocence\u2014and particularly I\u2019m looking at the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (NZBORA), section 25(c), around people who are provided the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty\u2014how does NZBORA then tie into these two categories of remand that have been created as a part of the definition of \u201Caccused prisoners\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFinally, one other area that we haven\u2019t heard from the Minister yet, and our colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has mentioned it, is in terms of the removal of cultural activities. Other people may have further to say around the removal of clause 6A around Tiriti o Waitangi, but I, as a Chinese person, would like to focus on that element of cultural activities. The link I want to draw to is in the regulatory impact statement, paragraph 189, which is talking about feedback on Te Tiriti. One of the things I want to talk about is ensuring that M\u0101ori are not at risk for speaking te reo. I wanted to check whether the removal of cultural activities would then have inadvertent effect on the sort of treatment that people will have, particularly from a migrant background, when they are speaking in their own reo, when they\u2019re speaking their own language in the prison system and how that would be addressed by the corrections facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe questions would be around the three different types of prisoners, and particularly the two types of prisoners that have been created with the definition of \u201Caccused prisoner\u201D, and also in terms of speaking their own language and the impact of that with the removal of cultural activities. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc3430f2bf42413f893c97255d65ffc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc3430f2bf42413f893c97255d65ffc5\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E A really good point to raise. Just quickly, on remand accused and remand convicted\u2014it\u2019s quite simply that. Someone who is remand convicted has been convicted\u2014so they have been to court, they have been convicted, and they\u2019re awaiting to be sentenced to find out what their sentence is going to be. Remand accused have not actually been to court and had their case heard. That is the fundamental difference, and that is why, if you were to deliver offence-based programmes to someone that was remand accused, even though they may actually ask for it, that could be seen as an admission of guilt, because they\u2019re engaging on a programme like that. Fundamentally, that\u2019s why they\u2019ve been separated out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ELook, in terms of te reo, or any language that anyone wants to speak inside corrections, absolutely they can; there\u2019s no restrictions on that, they\u2019re very welcome to do that. I do agree with you that there\u2019s also opportunity in corrections to expand cultural-based programmes, not just te reo but to other cultures as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022202326bdd273469ba82d3a4c16e17e00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022202326bdd273469ba82d3a4c16e17e00\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I also had some questions around the removal of clause 6A, which is titled \u201CTiriti o Waitangi/Treaty of Waitangi\u201D. I just had to raise some reflections on this clause before I get to my questions for the Minister. This is a very specific clause that, actually, unlike many other Treaty clauses in legislation, outlines very, very specifically what Corrections should do in order to give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. I think it\u2019s really important for the committee and for our discussions today in analysing this bill, to note that these are very specific commitments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI have been listening to what the Minister\u2019s been saying in relation to this clause, and I\u2019ve heard his assurances that rehabilitation work will continue and that the work that corrections officers are doing is good work. I don\u2019t doubt, on an individual basis, that they do do the best job that they can, but also we\u2019ve heard comments from members around the Chamber, and I think that we must acknowledge that the statistics in relation to M\u0101ori are not where they should be and that something needs to be done. I think that this was the attempt, in this originally drafted bill, to address some of the inequities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMy questions are actually very specific. In section 6A, in clause 6, if we look at the sections that have been removed, what in this section will not be going ahead as a result of the removal of this section? Specifically, we\u2019ve got the corrections system and support for rehabilitation and reintegration of M\u0101ori offenders. We\u2019ve got a \u201Cchief executive\u2019s function of ensuring the development, maintenance, and implementation of a strategy that is focused on improving outcomes for M\u0101ori in the correction system:\u201D. I won\u2019t read all of the different sections, but in that section, specifically I\u2019d like to know from the Minister what won\u2019t be happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EA follow-up to that question: if these things are still going to be occurring under the corrections system\u2014if he wants to jump up and answer, I\u2019m happy to yield. But my follow-up question is really: if they\u2019re not happening, why not? These seem to be very, very practical solutions to addressing a very real problem that has existed within our corrections system. If they are happening, then why are they being removed from this piece of legislation? And to what extent does the title of this clause, being a Treaty of Waitangi clause\u2014as my colleague Duncan Webb has said, this is not just looking at the Treaty and saying we should use it as a philosophy for the basis of our work, which is what many other Treaty principles are; this is a very practical bill and a very practical clause. Why is it being removed? It seems to me to provide a way forward to addressing some of these very important issues that exist for M\u0101ori in our corrections system. Those are my questions for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00224a006eb48c6c4a7eac5cd962a3f68aeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a006eb48c6c4a7eac5cd962a3f68aeb\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Look, a really good question. The one thing I\u2019d say, and I\u2019d come back to the point that I\u2019ve been making, is that we have never had Treaty provisions inside the Corrections Act ever, and yet the system has been working very well. It\u2019ll continue to work well. All of the obligations on the chief executive and on Corrections in terms of continuing to work on strengthening that relationship and recognising the importance of that relationship with iwi and hap\u016B will continue, and is continuing today as programmes are rolled out and delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c2055caf9b140c6b3fb9ae904637097\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: So why take it out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8693b1ab31415798e1696d9ad13a61\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, quite simply, it was taken out because\u2014the member alluded to it in her opening comment\u2014we are a coalition Government and that was a Cabinet decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00227f730ae51dc647e2ade73bdb1e8791f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f730ae51dc647e2ade73bdb1e8791f7\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to pick up on those questions that were on, I think, page 7 under clause 6 of the bill. In particular, I really appreciate that the Minister\u2019s been really forthright with his answers so far in relation to the removal of the Treaty references in this legislation. I just wanted to pick up on one thing he stated, which was that Corrections should be colour-blind and that if they weren\u2019t, then it would somehow impede or make their job not right, so they should be colour-blind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would just like to refer the Minister to the regulatory impact statement, which specifically references the work that\u2019s been undertaken by Corrections in relation to H\u014Dkai Rangi. They specifically state that \u201CCorrections is contributing to improved rehabilitation and reintegration outcomes by delivering its programmes and services in a way that recognises the power and the strength of whakapapa to enhance a sense of belonging and identity with the community.\u201D I would see that as integral to the H\u014Dkai Rangi strategy that has been and continues to be implemented by Corrections. It is not colour-blind; in fact, acknowledging M\u0101ori, their identity, their whakapapa, and their cultural connections is the very essence of how rehabilitation may well occur. I\u2019m really puzzled by the Minister\u2019s comments that the Department of Corrections should be colour-blind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would further really like to understand, and we haven\u2019t had this answer yet, why the Treaty provisions have been removed. When we on the Labour side asked officials why these provisions were removed, similar to the Minister, the explanation we were provided was we\u2019ve already got all these great M\u0101ori programmes happening; we can do some programmes, we can do cultural things, we can have te reo M\u0101ori\u2014we can do all these things\u2014so we don\u2019t need a Treaty reference in this bill in order to be able to do all these great things for the 53 percent of M\u0101ori inmates that we have. But the question is: so why take it out? What\u2019s wrong with having the Treaty in there? If these things are so fundamental to our partnership between the Crown and te iwi M\u0101ori, what is the problem with that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EYou can just point to your coalition agreement, but it\u2019s your coalition agreement as well. You need to be able to explain to New Zealanders that there is more to this than just a political promise. There needs to be logic behind removing it. I agree that you\u2019ve made a deal with some coalition partners to be able to form a Government and pass legislation like this, but I think incumbent upon that power comes responsibility to explain to voting New Zealanders why taking Treaty references out of this bill makes one lick of difference. Because I can\u2019t see how it does. You can\u2019t leave it both ways. Either you take it out and it makes a difference to the bill or you leave it in and it stays the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI still yet have not heard from the Minister responsible for this legislation why the Treaty references have been taken out of this bill and also why they make the bill better by removing the Treaty references in this bill. We know that over 50 percent of those incarcerated in our prisons are M\u0101ori, and I do not accept that being colour-blind makes any difference or makes it any better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EHe says that the corrections system is working incredibly well. Well, I would say that rehabilitation needs to hugely improve, recidivism needs to hugely improve, and I would think that the Treaty as a framework in a partnership between the Crown and te iwi M\u0101ori was a good starting point to start to address some of those huge discrepancies that we\u2019ve continued to see over decades and decades in New Zealand. We still not have not received an answer as to why the Treaty references taken out, and, secondly, what difference this actually makes to the bill. All of the things that were already happening in there are, so why don\u2019t we just leave the Treaty reference in there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00229abd19e27050487a830900edd2918d61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229abd19e27050487a830900edd2918d61\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019ve actually answered that question four or five times out of respect for the members that keep asking it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn relation to my comment around being colour-blind, if the member had been listening she would have heard that both the Police and Corrections were accused of being racist. I was very clear that I reject that accusation and that both services, in my view, are colour-blind. Now, that does not mean that our corrections officers aren\u2019t deeply passionate about delivering programmes and caring for and looking after people\u2014not just one ethnicity, multiple ethnicities inside our corrections system. I\u2019m extremely proud of the work that they do. But are they racist? No, I completely reject that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question around the removal of the Treaty provisions, again I\u2019d say to the member that, yes, it was a Cabinet decision based on a coalition agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa52f3223a434d8f8b217c1b1d61da88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa52f3223a434d8f8b217c1b1d61da88\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair; thank you for the opportunity to speak. I\u2019d like to support those who have echoed frustration in the Chamber in relation to the removal of the Treaty clauses in this legislation. Just because it hasn\u2019t been done in the past, it doesn\u2019t mean it shouldn\u2019t be done now\u2014now and for the future, because by locking in Te Tiriti o Waitangi into the legislation, it is for strategic purposes, it is for iwi M\u0101ori to know that there are protections in there, and it\u2019s above and beyond obligations to a coalition agreement because the original agreement was Te Tiriti o Waitangi, signed in 1840; kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, I want to ask the Minister: what hui did he have to inform his decision to remove these Treaty clauses? Maybe hap\u016B and iwi missed the memo that there were hui held to consult. Then what advice or analysis was provided from officials in terms of the potential impact that not having Te Tiriti clauses could have on M\u0101ori in prison? We have, what, 68 percent of w\u0101hine M\u0101ori incarcerated, and 53 percent of M\u0101ori overall. Because the original intent\u2014and this is what I found; that our officials provided advice and said that Te Tiriti o Waitangi clause which is being removed is the most critical to achieving the original intent of the Treaty provisions, which is to ensure Corrections consistently focuses on improving outcomes for M\u0101ori. That\u2019s the point of having Te Tiriti provisions: it elevates and it provides focus at a strategic, CEO-down, across the organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EMay I pause and reflect on our visit to Waikeria Prison and the Te Ao Marama Unit, and meeting with Whaea Katarina, the kuia of the corrections facility. She was very clear on the way that they as hap\u016B and iwi of that rohe embed themselves in that facility. Waikeria is working as a firm relationship with the tribes of Waikeria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI think that that comes from a long relationship; I think it comes from something that iwi M\u0101ori have reached out to. But is that happening across the system? Do we have strong relationships, hap\u016B, iwi? Do we have kaum\u0101tua kuia groups operating in each of the facilities? In Waikeria, the taumata sat there and they listened to the k\u014Drero, and they shared the benefit of how they are trying to include cultural activities for these incarcerated wh\u0101nau, and the fact that\u2014I know, I\u2019m going to go on to cultural activities too, because they\u2019re hand in hand: connection to whakapapa, knowledge of who you are, and then the ability to execute those cultural activities are fundamental for protections in terms of te iwi M\u0101ori being able to go out into the community, go out into their families, and be strong individuals contributing positively to society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, reflecting again on the Te Ao Marama programme: Hinewirangi Kohu-Morgan dedicated her life as a wahine M\u0101ori to work in Waikeria. This is, again, on purpose. She dedicated her life to sexual offenders. She passed recently, and her daughter is carrying on that legacy in Waikeria, and it was wonderful to see her daughter come and mihi to us as the Green Party, in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI believe that we need to lock in Te Tiriti o Waitangi to ensure\u2014strategically and operationally\u2014we have firm plans, we have accountability, and monitoring of the system across the board, not by chance. Just because Waikeria is amazing in what they\u2019re doing to help strengthen our wh\u0101nau that are incarcerated, it does not mean that it\u2019s consistent across the system. And that\u2019s the importance of Te Tiriti o Waitangi in providing that framework that we have heard in this Chamber: Te Tiriti framework provides protections and also overall accountability of the CEO, all the way down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI acknowledge those that came into this Whare, the m\u014Drehu who came and are the victims of State and faith-based care. Many of them are in the system, and when we think about the stories shared at Waikeria Prison and the way in which those experiences have impacted upon them, their ability to go out and participate in cultural activities, to be able to tuku mihi\u2014to give a mihi\u2014to be able to karakia and waiata with confidence, to be able to participate in programmes like those of Hinewirangi Kohu-Morgan are supremely important. But they cannot be by chance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9827b584ba5467f88deaeda001938d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9827b584ba5467f88deaeda001938d2\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I support that k\u014Drero of H\u016Bhana Lyndon. I appreciate the Minister has got out there and spoken with different groups. I\u2019d be really interested in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EOne of the absolutely overwhelming facts that we hear, Minister, is that, as H\u016Bhana Lyndon said, once our people get a bit of reo, once our people learn a bit of culture, it changes their lives\u2014it changes their lives. I have seen it in my life. I\u2019ve seen people turn around from nowhere to all of a sudden standing up, being proud, because they know how to speak a little bit of M\u0101ori, because they know their whakapapa, because they\u2019re able to stand up in front of their kaum\u0101tua and kuia and introduce themselves, their maunga\u2014their river\u2014their whakapapa. It\u2019s one of the most beautiful things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI just ask the Minister, who, as I said, I know has got out there and I\u2019ve seen him at different hui: was he here in 2019 when the H\u014Dkai Rangi strategy was launched in Parliament here by Kelvin Davis? I ask the Minister: was he here that day and did he support what Minister Davis was saying at the time, that the aim was to reduce that M\u0101ori population from 52 percent, I think it was, down to 16 percent, was the goal? Of course, that hasn\u2019t happened, but did he support the principles of what H\u014Dkai Rangi was all about, which was more about treating the individual, looking at the history, the background, of that individual, rather than just a heavy approach and hammering the individual?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESome of the stuff that Kelvin did, I think, was something that should have been bipartisan, could have been supported by a National Government too, as some of the work that Simon Power did in the past was supported by Labour and other people. Simon Power was a National Party Minister; he had gang members coming into Parliament. Why? Because he wanted to find a way forward so that our communities could all work in tandem. So we had political parties working in tandem from both sides, a strategy driven by a person in National, and there was no reason for Labour to oppose it\u2014looking at the depth, looking at the background of some of these gang members, and looking at the history in terms of jails. Is the Minister still committed to the principles of H\u014Dkai Rangi? I\u2019d like to know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EDid the Minister also\u2014and I\u2019m not sure if I saw him\u2014attend the justice conferences that Andrew Little initiated? In\u0101ia Tonu Nei was incredibly important. Yes, I know he\u2019s out there, but I want to know, what level of work has been done on the ground? At that time, we had Julia Whaipooti\u2014I think it was\u2014and Zac Wallace, who was a long-time prisoner in Paremoremo Prison, who was working at ground level; Deirdre Nehua. These were the people who were working for us at ground level. We had contracts in terms of prisoners coming out of jail and we were housing them around our marae at Ng\u0101 Whare Waatea. What level of contact has the Minister had with some of these groups? I would hope that a coalition agreement would not mean the end of a relationship with M\u0101ori and special groups and people who\u2019ve made a contribution. And I don\u2019t even know how these people vote, actually, to tell you the truth, but they have a huge commitment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThere were so many expectations that our justice people put in place. We had major hui here in Wellington. We had major hui in Rotorua. What is the future looking like in terms of M\u0101ori working in tandem with the Government? What\u2019s that looking like? Is there a plan? It does distress us that the Treaty is being put aside because of a coalition agreement. The one underlying principle and priority from these hui was that the Treaty is an integral part of rehabilitation. I just asked a few questions there in terms of the background and has the Minister been involved in some of these kaupapa in the past, and are they still important going forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00228466e6a0767041ddb42cc3c629e73e95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228466e6a0767041ddb42cc3c629e73e95\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, to the previous speaker, H\u016Bhana Lyndon, first\u2014it\u2019s great to hear that you had such a positive visit and experience at Waikeria Prison. Like I was saying earlier, it\u2019s good to see members that are interested in taking a keen interest in terms of what our people are doing. I\u2019m extremely proud of what they\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn relation to consultation about the removal of the Treaty provisions, the Treaty provisions have never been part of the Corrections Act. It\u2019s very hard to be able to understand what the impacts are when they\u2019ve never been part of the Corrections Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EComing to the Hon Willie Jackson, yes, I was definitely around in 2019; yes, I definitely support the initiative that Kelvin put in place and acknowledge him for that; yes, we\u2019re working with iwi and hap\u016B, as he knows; and, yes, we remain committed to making sure that we continue to develop and deliver the programmes that we think will do the best and move us towards, when people rejoin society, giving them the best possible chance of reintegration and making good decisions in their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00223b7323bd22614527b91f089e0cf8dd46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b7323bd22614527b91f089e0cf8dd46\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before we move to the next call, just some reflections. I want to acknowledge that there have been a lot of questions around the removal of section 6A, the Tiriti provision. A lot of that stuff has been addressed. There is still some new material coming up, but I would encourage members to not repeat arguments that have been made by themselves or by other members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022083306fe82f547ba95be045712538a6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022083306fe82f547ba95be045712538a6a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I acknowledge that guidance. There is a point in clause 6 that I did want to make that hasn\u2019t been touched on, and that\u2019s in clause 6 where it says, \u201CAfter section 6(1)(h), insert: (ha)\u201D, it\u2019s on page 7 of the bill as reported back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe issue I intend to raise pervades this legislation, and it\u2019s this: that this is about \u201Caccused prisoners may, so far as is reasonable and practicable in the circumstances within the resources available, be given access to activities including non-offence-based programmes\u201D, and so on. Now, the law does generally one of three things: it prohibits something, it requires something, or it gives someone a power to do something. My concern with this clause and clauses like it\u2014and there are several through the legislation\u2014is that it does none of those things. It just loosely waves in the direction of what\u2014because it\u2019s clear that the Corrections department can provide programmes, but it doesn\u2019t require anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn particular, the expectation being placed on the department is watered down by at least three qualifiers, because one of the challenges that we\u2019ve heard from the Ombudsman is that the department simply doesn\u2019t provide sufficient rehabilitative programmes and people get to the end of their stay\u2014however that may occur\u2014and they haven\u2019t received the attention that they need and deserve. In this clause, and in other clauses throughout, it says \u201Caccused prisoners may,\u201D\u2014so it\u2019s not mandatory\u2014\u201Cso far as is reasonable\u201D\u2014the first qualifier\u2014\u201Cand practicable\u201D\u2014the second qualifier\u2014\u201Cin the circumstances within the resources available,\u201D\u2014the third qualifier. If we have a genuine intention to deliver these programmes, what on earth is the point of this? It, basically, says, \u201CIf you feel like it, if you want to, if you can be bothered, if you\u2019ve got the time available and the staff spare and some space.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, if we are genuine in providing good programmes both to accused prisoners and other prisoners, then why on earth are we not saying, \u201CCorrections is required to provide programmes.\u201D I accept, and the Minister well knows, through exchanges we\u2019ve had, that Corrections has not met minimum standards, let alone exemplary standards in respect of how it addresses and provides for prisoners in terms of their basic rights. But we need to do more, and a clause like this which says, \u201CAccused prisoners don\u2019t have an entitlement to any programmes, but they can have them if the chief executive and department wants to give them as far as is reasonable, as far as is practicable and within the resources available.\u201D\u2014it may as well say nothing, because that\u2019s, essentially, what it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI think there is a genuine expectation, both by the community, who want to see people come out of prison better than when they went in, and by the people who are detained, to get the help they need. This can\u2019t be dismissed by saying they do a great job because, I\u2019m sorry, Minister, they don\u2019t. We have the words of the Ombudsman on numerous reports and in person to the Justice Committee saying that\u2019s not the case. I\u2019m interested in whether the Minister would consider tightening this up and making it much more of an entitlement on the part of the detained person, and an obligation on the part of the department, to provide these kinds of programmes\u2014rather than just a wish, a loose wish. I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7fa56863a564802a5c0f4a92eec8e4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7fa56863a564802a5c0f4a92eec8e4c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the member\u2019s comments. Look, at the end of the day, that clause means that we want to put Corrections in a far better position\u2014much stronger position\u2014to be able to deliver rehabilitation programmes. The reality of it is\u2014and I\u2019m sure that the member has visited one of our corrections facilities, and he will see that there is an up-tempo, very challenging, and dynamic environment. Corrections over the last few years have been operating severely under capacity in terms of numbers. We are starting to fix that. For the first time in a long time, we were above the rate of attrition and doing very well with recruitment, training, and deployment of new corrections officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ETo codify it and not give them the flexibility and the ability to be able to recognise the environment that they work in would mean that you could be putting Corrections in a position where they\u2019re breaking the law. And we\u2019re not going to do that. The whole focus of this legislation is to make it safer for both corrections officers and prisoners, and for us to be able to deliver more rehabilitation to those that need it\u2014and that\u2019s exactly what this bill is going to deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3722f31d480428da415da26d209a0dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3722f31d480428da415da26d209a0dd\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would also like to first thank Mr Chair for allowing us to take a number of calls around the removal of Te Tiriti o Waitangi clause. This is incredibly significant, and this is incredibly significant for the Opposition to hear as well, because this removal took place after the select committee stage, so, in fact, no submitters have been able to comment on this. Hence a lot of people have been questioning around modelling and to what extent, so I want to thank the Minister for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI hope Mr Chair will be happy to know my question is not related to Te Tiriti. However, the first question I have is related to non - offence-based programmes. I want to thank the Minister for talking earlier about the importance of having the non - offence-based programmes for people on remand who are still awaiting trial. One of the things we know within the prison system, within the correction system, is the disproportionate number of people who are neurodivergent or who have dyslexia. I wanted to check whether the non - offence-based programmes that have been named here have considered the neurodivergence and also the dyslexia that is experienced by our prison wh\u0101nau and whether these non - offence-based programmes would then be tailored to the people who may not learn in a one-size-fits-all manner within this programme system. That\u2019s my first question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow my second question is on clause 5, which inserts new section 3A, \u201CTransitional, savings, and related provisions\u201D. I want to specifically focus on Schedule 1AA, which is after Schedule 1. Now, there are going to be people who are talking about other elements of the rest of bill and the transitional nature of the bill, but I want to focus specifically on Schedule 1AA when they talked about clause 2(1) around management plans. What I want to focus on, which would really pique my interest, is the provision that it potentially has in place that prevents a retrospective penalty or double jeopardy that is in line with section 26 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (NZBORA). I have a question around the transitional plan, in terms of whether the Minister has considered, as part of this transition and all other elements that we will be discussing that relate to the bill, whether that transitional plan has taken into consideration, when a person has been sentenced or is in the corrections system or is on remand waiting for a sentence, the risk of this bill creating a harsher punishment for these people, more so than at the time of their sentencing or at the time of their trial, ergo creating a harsher sentence, ergo double jeopardy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI wanted to check if that has been a consideration by the Minister or by the officials around this, because one of the things that is in the regulatory impact statement, in the table on page 31, talks about monitoring. As an example, it talks about the fact that this may affect section 14 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, around the rights to freedom of expression, because some prisoners may have expressed that they are not able to express themselves fully if they\u2019re being monitored\u2014which implies that there is a level of consideration that they may feel that the treatment they are getting is harsher than when they were first sentenced. I want to know whether that has been considered and, upon balance, whether the Minister or the officials have considered for certain provisions in here to not be applied to prison wh\u0101nau with a certain duration of sentence or to prison wh\u0101nau on remand, waiting for sentence, that potentially will make their treatment worse than when they were sentenced or worse than when they were trialled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThose are the two questions: whether neurodivergence and also dyslexia have been considered when we\u2019re talking about non-offence programmes and what that would look like; and also in terms of Schedule 1AA around the transitional phase and whether we are looking at any potential issues with section 26 of NZBORA around retrospective penalty and double jeopardy. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022170baef9a5f4445fb47a126d1f064e94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022170baef9a5f4445fb47a126d1f064e94\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I think what you\u2019ve highlighted\u2014and it\u2019s true that Corrections deal with a wide range of very complex issues: from addiction issues to mental health issues. I think you raise a very good point around neurodivergence and people with dyslexia and whether those needs can be met. I can\u2019t give you a very definitive answer on that. The only thing that I would say to you is that Corrections are very sensitive to this. They\u2019ve got very good processes in place. They make sure that the prisons are supported in the best way that they can be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn terms of transitional planning, I think that you\u2019ve highlighted one of the issues that the previous speaker was talking about, and that\u2019s how dynamic the environment is, and a lot of that stuff is outside Corrections\u2019 control, in terms of someone that\u2019s going up for parole may get parole or may not get parole, how long are they going to be in the system for, and whether they are going to be there long enough to be able to complete a programme. These are all very specific issues that Corrections have to deal with on a daily basis, but they\u2019ll take all of those matters into full account when they\u2019re making a decision in terms of when they are delivering a programme, always, always with the priority being how they give that person the best possible support and the best chance of being reintegrated and making good decisions when they leave the corrections service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022efdd99f340124b338dee367b35dba056\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efdd99f340124b338dee367b35dba056\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for allowing me to take a call. I have some follow-up questions around new section 6A\u2014the removal of the Treaty provisions\u2014based on some of the answers that the Minister, the Hon Mark Mitchell, has provided to the committee today. Hopefully that won\u2019t be too repetitive, but there was a comment made by the Minister which, roughly, said Corrections are not responsible for the people who come into prison. That was as a response to concerns that have been raised by this side of the House about the overrepresentation of M\u0101ori within the corrections system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI understood the Minister\u2019s comments to mean that it\u2019s not Corrections\u2019 fault who ends up in prison and what the make-up of that population is, because they\u2019re not the ones who are putting people into the system in the first place. However, the way that people are treated while they are in prison directly impacts what they\u2019re going to do when they get back out into society. We\u2019re talking about recidivism, and so, actually, if prisons are environments that are hostile and that use punishment and retribution as a tool to control and restrain people\u2014or, put simply, if you treat people like animals, they\u2019re going to act like animals. So, actually, Corrections does have a responsibility and does have some control over who is coming back into the system due to the way that they are being treated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThat leads me to questions that I have around amended section 85, which replaces references to \u201Cnon-lethal weapons\u201D with the term \u201Cless-lethal weapons\u201D. I would be really keen for the Minister to talk to us about what some of the weapons are that are used within Corrections and how appropriate it is to continue to use some of those weapons that cause extreme harm to people who are on the receiving end of those weapons. So my question around \u201Cnon-lethal\u201D versus \u201Cless-lethal\u201D weapons is: could the Minister define what non-lethal weapons are, and could the Minister define what less-lethal weapons are, and what the rationale was for changing that terminology? I think, if the Minister could provide some examples of the weapons that are used, that will really provide some clarity. I was really concerned to see there isn\u2019t even a definition for what \u201Cless-lethal\u201D means. So, if the Minister could talk to us about his understanding of what less-lethal means, that would be really helpful. Does not including a definition of \u201Cless-lethal\u201D leave an open risk as to any lethal weapon being used against incarcerated people? I would appreciate it if the Minister was quite clear about the difference between those two definitions and what those might look like in reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWhen I went to Paremoremo prison a month ago, I asked the officers what they thought about the changes in terminology, and I asked the prison director, Steve Parr, to show me what weapons they use and have at their disposal. I was happy to see that the first thing they did was point to their mouth, in terms of de-escalation and communication as the first and most important tool they have access to. But I know that, in reality, there is still use of weapons that really degrade, humiliate, and harm people in prison. I know that corrections officers are not able to access the same type of training that maybe police officers access. With police, as you know, as the Minister of Police, they\u2019re able to access de-escalation training and training that helps them to accurately perceive threat within an environment. But corrections officers don\u2019t have access to these same types of training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThere has been quite a bit of media around the use of different weapons within the corrections system. There has been some focus on Cell Buster extractions, which is, obviously, the process of gassing a prisoner in order to restrain them. There was one particular incident that was reported on by Guyon Espiner in 2020, which was about an asthmatic woman in Auckland Women\u2019s Prison who had four canisters of gas put under her door and the officers stuffed the door with towels in order to not allow the gas to escape from the cell, and this ended up being taken to court in the Cripps v Attorney-General case. But that\u2019s the reality. People are still being gassed in prison. Can he talk to us about some of those weapons and how is this consistent with the United Nations guidance around human rights that states that chemical irritants should not be used in closed environments without adequate ventilation or where there is no viable exit owing to the risk of death or serious injury from asphyxiation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to ask some questions about the use of spit hoods within prisons and with people who are held in custody. I know the Minister likes to borrow laws from Australia. I did a bit of research and found that New South Wales and South Australia have actually outright banned spit hoods and the use of those spit hoods. My question is: can the Minister, please, clearly outline some examples of weapons that are used within Corrections to restrain people in prison, and be really clear with the committee about the differences between non-lethal and less-lethal weapons\u2014what those actually look like? And what will the changes to this piece of legislation mean for the upholding of the dignity and humanity of people in prison?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ELike I said before, if you treat people in prison like animals and you strip them of their humanity and their dignity and you humiliate and harm them, that is going to further entrench the harmful attitudes and behaviours that they have, because they\u2019re going to believe that everyone out there is going to hurt them. Hurt people hurt people. If we are cruel to people while they are in custody, the likelihood that they come out\u2014most people in prison will come back into the community at some point. If we degrade them and strip them of their humanity during their time in custody, what is the impact of that in terms of when they come back into the community? Are they going to believe that violence is a tool that they can use to negotiate and navigate life?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EAny clarity that the Minister can provide around non-lethal and less-lethal weapons would be helpful? And also, what training and guidance will Corrections staff receive on the use of non-lethal or less-lethal weapons, and what will the process look like if certain prisons want to employ different weapons? What is the process? What are the criteria for those weapons to be authorised for use? How are we going to make sure that there are sufficient protections in place to make sure that particular weapons don\u2019t cause loss of life and don\u2019t cause people significant physiological and psychological damage? How do we preserve and uplift the dignity and the humanity of people in prison? How do we make sure there won\u2019t be deaths in prison due to the use of these weapons? Those are my questions on weapons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022c40ae14068344beca1782f7575cd71f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c40ae14068344beca1782f7575cd71f9\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I\u2019d just say that, if there\u2019s violence perpetrated inside our prisons, you have to remember that a lot of the people in prison are there because they\u2019re violent people. Last week, I was on the phone, doing a welfare check with a corrections officer who had been stabbed in the face with a shank. About a month before that, I was talking to a prison officer who was off work for two months because he had been assaulted by a group of prisoners. I just want everyone to remember that, actually, they\u2019re looking after people who were taken out of our society because they\u2019re often violent\u2014they\u2019re violent offenders who hurt people or kill people. It\u2019s a very difficult and dynamic environment that our corrections officers are working in. They often go unnoticed; they\u2019re under the wire, because unlike our other first responders, who are very visible in the community, they aren\u2019t always seen, and they aren\u2019t always recognised for the outstanding work that they do and the massive contribution that they make to us as a country around public safety. I want to put that on the record and thank and acknowledge them now for the work that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn relation to the changes around tactical options for them, the change from \u201Cnon-lethal\u201D to \u201Cless-lethal\u201D was driven in part by the report that came out from the UN. It was just quite simply around the fact that you cannot guarantee\u2014anything that you use, you cannot guarantee that there may not be a lethal outcome. But, of course, dependant on the tactics that you\u2019re using, that is reduced to the bare minimum. That\u2019s why the change was made between \u201Cnon-lethal\u201D to \u201Cless-lethal\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn terms of de-escalation, I agree completely with the member. The police are outstanding in de-escalation. You referred to the power of communication, and that\u2019s the most powerful tool that they\u2019ve got. It\u2019s also the most powerful tool that our corrections officers have. Yes, they do a lot of work around de-escalation. We have world-class negotiation teams inside our corrections service. We have world-class special tactics teams. We have world-class at-height teams that are able to respond and support their colleagues on the front line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn terms of some of the less lethal options that corrections officers have got, obviously, there are pepper spray and batons. That is absolutely a last resort. They don\u2019t want to be in a physical confrontation. I don\u2019t think anyone getting up in the morning to go to work wants to be put in a position where they\u2019re in a physical confrontation, but they work in an environment with violent people, and sometimes those people are violent, and they have to have the tools and they have to have the training to be able to deal with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022286c66c3a1ac428da1edcd508a56b3f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022286c66c3a1ac428da1edcd508a56b3f8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have two short points. The first is around clause 8, which is on page 8 of the bill, and that is simply around a strategy focusing on improving outcomes for M\u0101ori. The Minister has, on repeated occasions, said that he agrees in principle with that as an objective of the corrections system. Clause 8, which is deleted in this version of the bill, says that, essentially\u2014because it was a requirement under that clause, or it would have been a requirement\u2014the chief executive has a strategy. That\u2019s a document that says, \u201CHere\u2019s what we want to do, here\u2019s how we\u2019re going to get there, and\u201D\u2014providing requirements for monitoring the outcome\u2014\u201Chere\u2019s how we\u2019re doing.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s thrown that out and, I guess, I\u2019m asking the Minister\u2014because he said on a number of occasions, \u201CWe can still achieve these things; we just don\u2019t need legislation to do it.\u201D\u2014will he be requiring, as Minister, the chief executive to have a strategy, in place of legislation, which focuses on improving outcomes for M\u0101ori in the corrections systems? That\u2019s my first and very short question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy second question is, again, around the high degree of discretion given to the Corrections department generally, and the chief executive. I was looking, on page 10, at section 61CA, which is about dealing with at-risk prisoners. We heard and we sympathise with the things the Minister has said about how difficult the corrections environment is, but this is about, essentially, isolating at-risk prisoners, and this might be a prisoner who\u2019s likely to self-harm. I understand that that\u2019s necessary, but I was looking at the new insertion in subsection (8), and the general sense is this: if you\u2019re going to put a prisoner in isolation to protect them from self-harm, it\u2019s got to be under constant review by a health professional, because this is solitary confinement, which is, you know, a significant infringement on liberty and it can be quite harmful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe requirement is that a health professional check daily whether it is still required that they are, essentially, isolated in solitary confinement. Except, subsection (8), once again, says that they don\u2019t have to do it if they don\u2019t think they need to. What the words are is: \u201CWhile a direction under this section in in force,\u201D\u2014that\u2019s the isolation direction\u2014\u201Cthe health centre manager must,\u201D\u2014in a bit of awkward grammar, by putting this in the middle\u2014\u201Cunless the health centre manager is satisfied that it is not necessary in the circumstances, ensure that a registered health professional visits the prisoner concerned at least once a day.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhy do we need that to say, \u201Cunless you don\u2019t think it\u2019s necessary\u201D? We\u2019ve got a prisoner who is at risk and in isolation, in solitary confinement\u2014for their own health and welfare, I accept. Why is it so hard to say, \u201CWe need a registered health professional.\u201D? I\u00A0mean, that might be a nurse, and, as I understand it, there\u2019ll be medical professionals, like nurses, on site in a prison available for this very purpose. Why are we giving a free pass if the health centre manager is\u2014because the danger here is that you say, \u201CI don\u2019t think it\u2019s necessary.\u201D, which becomes \u201CIt\u2019s all a bit too hard.\u201D This is the real danger: it\u2019s not necessary because the nurse is busy across the other side of the precinct, or something like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOnce again, it really lacks, in respect of something that touches on quite important human rights about being kept in isolation, in solitary confinement, and whether that still remains necessary. So two questions: one on the strategy question and one on isolation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022854ae468c46d4611a548eb87c19cc9b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022854ae468c46d4611a548eb87c19cc9b0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just following on from that k\u014Drero, I\u2019ve still got a couple of questions that are lingering. It\u2019s very interesting that you\u2019re in the Chair, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI just wanted to follow up on, first of all, the Minister of Corrections\u2019 answers in terms of racism, which were put forward, which I thought were interesting, and the Minister denying that there\u2019s any racism in the police. I certainly accept\u2014many of us accept\u2014that there\u2019s been a big effort in the last few years in addressing the racism. But surely the Minister must acknowledge that\u2014and I\u2019m sure the Chair might support him\u2014in past years\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb8cf3183c5241c38cab2618104f331a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This isn\u2019t about the Chair, Mr Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022780a7b432cd04189ae6c5245d7ab9a08\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, you have a good history there, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just showing you some respect in terms of your history. I apologise if that\u2019s upsetting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s no doubt in my mind that there\u2019s been a history in terms of racism and the police. I\u2019d like the Minister to address that. We only have to look back to T\u016Bhoe in 2007, 2008, and it was a terrible, terrible situation that happened there in terms of the raid on T\u016Bhoe at the time, as we all know. Since then, of course, we had major apologies from the police to the people of T\u016Bhoe. I do have a relevant question, also, in terms of section 19\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c8ee2c156a84fd5937a1a7123306be5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Looking forward to hearing it, Mr Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c805607583f443f5862c2cca99242bc9\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which I\u2019ll come forward to. I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s response to that, because I think a lot of that past has affected what is happening today, although I acknowledge that there\u2019s been a big effort in terms of addressing the past indiscretions and racism that was exhibited by the New Zealand Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI want to come to the deletion of clause 19, which inserted new subsection (2) in section 80, and this is an area that I\u2019m not sure if the Minister has addressed properly, which talks about, now, \u201CM\u0101ori prisoners and other prisoners detained in a corrections prison must have access to cultural activities, so far as is reasonable and practicable, regardless of the corrections prison in which they are detained.\u201D I\u2019m not sure if the Minister has answered this properly or correctly. How does he view this? I would have thought that this was something that the Minister would support. But is this another coalition demand? One would have thought that this was something based on need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe reality is, with the M\u0101ori prison population being so high, why wouldn\u2019t you have opportunities and give M\u0101ori prisoners the access to cultural support, as well as other prisoners of course\u2014of course everybody should have access to cultural support. Given that M\u0101ori are filling 50 percent of the prisons, why would you delete that when we have overwhelming evidence that tells us that once that cultural support goes in, you get a turn-around in terms of some of these prisoners\u2019 lives\u2014you get an absolute turn-around. As I said in an earlier k\u014Drero, once they get some awareness of their language, once they get some awareness of whakapapa, knowing who they are, knowing where they\u2019re from, knowing who their t\u016Bpuna are, you get a hugely significant change. There is so much data to support that. I\u2019m sure Minister Potaka over there would support me 100 percent. In fact, I\u2019m sure he\u2019s spoken on this, actually, and said that the way forward\u2014in fact, I\u2019m sure I\u2019ll find something where he\u2019s spoken about how the language, the reo, can change people\u2019s lives. But here we have Minister Potaka, sadly, supporting a terrible clause like this, which takes away the opportunity for some of these prisoners to get access to cultural activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo the question is: is this a priority or not, or is this yet another coalition push to delete references to tikanga M\u0101ori, to te reo M\u0101ori, and to Te Tiriti? What is the background to this? I would have thought, given the Minister\u2019s responses so far, that he actually supports the principles of what Kelvin Davis has said and what Labour has done\u2014and we thank him for that support\u2014that he would be backing this particular clause that gives priority to M\u0101ori and others to find a cultural base.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002272da6f1e549644588e3eacd8207f445a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272da6f1e549644588e3eacd8207f445a\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Look, sadly, I wish that I could stand in the Chamber and say that we don\u2019t have pockets of racism in New Zealand, but we do, and that applies to all ethnicities. It\u2019s incumbent upon all of us in this Chamber to continue to lead to make sure that we become a country where we can purge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn relation to Government agencies and ministries, I\u2019m sure there are rotten apples, and if there\u2019s any evidence of any racism anywhere, then that should be dealt with quickly, regardless of what Government is in power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn relation to H\u014Dkai Rangi, I\u2019ve been very clear; I\u2019ve said that we\u2019re committed to that. This Government is firmly committed to increasing rehabilitation programmes and access for prisoners to have rehabilitation programmes, and that is contained within the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u002200d1d32e7b4c4932bc531e358e64ead4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200d1d32e7b4c4932bc531e358e64ead4\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6c72b0a89ff4ba5b6812ef5f244d71f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6c72b0a89ff4ba5b6812ef5f244d71f\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m so grateful for this opportunity to address the komiti, but I\u2019d like to pause and acknowledge the Minister for his sentiments in relation to our kaimahi, the staff, that are in Corrections and the important work that they do with those wh\u0101nau that are incarcerated. I\u2019d like to reflect on the staff and the engagements that we had at Waikeria on Monday, and the respect that inmates shared about the director, the deputy, and the staff relationships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWe know that healthy relationships can really build and strengthen a sense of wh\u0101nau, but also having delivery of programmes that can support the staff to engage with M\u0101ori inmates is really important. I know that Corrections has done a lot of work around staff capability and capacity to engage with M\u0101ori inmates, and that\u2019s a part of the responsibility when you have 53 percent of M\u0101ori in corrections, it\u2019s important that we support and awhi our staff to be able to work in the prison context, knowing we have broken wh\u0101nau in there, and then work out how to engage with them, just like the de-escalation training. So thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EMine is but a small contribution, in closing, in relation to Te Tiriti and those provisions which will no longer exist in this legislation. And thank you to my colleague Lawrence for raising the fact that submitters did come before the select committee and gave their contributions, and at that time, Te Tiriti o Waitangi was tapu. But, as we know, the select committee has now removed it, and we haven\u2019t had a chance to go back out to iwi, to community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m trying to be proactive in thinking about an opportunity to discuss or maybe find a meeting of minds with the Minister to see if\u2014because of the coalition Government\u2019s primacy of the agreement between the parties, rather than a priority on our founding document, Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014we could look for a way in which\u2014OK, we\u2019re deleting Te Tiriti, but could we look at amendments that would provide a provision or just one clause that can lock in improving M\u0101ori outcomes so that at an organisational level, there is to be that ongoing commitment, whether it be workforce development, whether it be the delivery of services throughout the system, and operationally there is a commitment, knowing 68 percent of w\u0101hine M\u0101ori are locked up right now, and then 53 percent of overall M\u0101ori. So that\u2019s just a p\u0101tai, really, to the Minister: could we look at something else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIs the word \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D also not allowed to be included in the legislation because of the coalition agreement? There\u2019s been contributions from this side of the Chamber saying, \u201CActually, we are a high-needs population. We should be a priority population because of what\u2019s happening right now.\u201D Can we look at some other wording whereby we, as te iwi M\u0101ori, can feel and see ourselves within the legislation and, therefore, can use it when engaging with Corrections across the system operationally and at a strategic level?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EMy final p\u0101tai and contribution, following on from Matua Willie, is in relation to cultural activities. We have prisoners who are members of wh\u0101nau and community, and when there is a death or a hui mate or there is a hura k\u014Dhatu\u2014an unveiling\u2014and other really important cultural functions, whether they be from the Pacific or from our migrant communities, the ability for them to be able to access temporary release is really important. I\u2019m really mindful that those cultural responsibilities and the ability to participate, whether you\u2019re a grave digger or whether you go to harvest kai or whether you sit on a taumata and deliver the karakia in the service, is something that enriches the lives of those that participate. I\u2019m really mindful because\u2014with the cultural activities part really not being clear anymore in terms of the compulsion for that to be available and with the knowledge that, often, M\u0101ori don\u2019t get the temporary release, because of security concerns\u2014how can we look to bridge that gap? What can we do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo this is a proactive ask of the Minister about the way in which we can build something in this legislation to improve outcomes, particularly for M\u0101ori inmates. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00221d2f6d53efef4ec8b98ca813882b3876\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d2f6d53efef4ec8b98ca813882b3876\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. Thank you, Mr Chair. The member just referenced that in the coalition agreement there is the coalition agreement to remove the word \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D from legislation. That is incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022147ebd9bfe19448fae571cd06d0b1f6c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s not a point of order. If the member wants to take a call, that\u2019s fine, but that\u2019s actually not a point of order to be taken to correct. The point of order is where there\u2019s been a breach of the Standing Orders. It\u2019s not a point of order. The member\u2019s welcome to take a call at some stage to correct anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u002221fdcc0d4d78422a83db29d9c657ca29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221fdcc0d4d78422a83db29d9c657ca29\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220bffa55bca9846fba1acb4a84f3dff4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bffa55bca9846fba1acb4a84f3dff4c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m aware I haven\u2019t heard any new information in recent times, but I\u2019ll hear Dr Tracey McLellan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac82a8913cab4ca3b6e8f01d62a7339a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac82a8913cab4ca3b6e8f01d62a7339a\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. As I made the opening contribution and I prefaced the fact that I had several questions, this is the first opportunity I\u2019ve had since then to actually ask any of those questions, so I do ask for your indulgence to move through the list. I haven\u2019t moved off the very first one yet, but I do have some to ask.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not going to ask questions on this, because, although I do think that some nuance has been lost in the ability to sort of delve into them a little bit more\u2014and I appreciate the fact that the Minister of Corrections will feel like he\u2019s answered the questions relating to Te Tiriti, and he certainly has attempted to address it on several occasions now, so I do appreciate that. However, without asking a question, I am going to make a couple of remarks before I move on. This is an acknowledgment that the Minister spoke\u2014well, he raised it, and I\u2019d like to come back to it\u2014about the fact that Corrections has no control over who they deal with in the corrections system. I would like to reiterate what Tamatha Paul said about the recidivism rates for people who are incarcerated being so high that, inevitably, the Department of Corrections absolutely has control over who is going to come back through their doors. It is incumbent upon them to do anything they can to improve the recidivism rates by, I think, entrenching some legislative foundations to ensure that we get better outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EMinister, H\u014Dkai Rangi has been referenced on several occasions today. Whilst that\u2019s the operational means by which some of the good things that we hope would be done in the corrections system could be done, as introduced by previous Minister the Hon Kelvin Davis, I note that that strategy runs from 2019 to 2024, which is this year. Can the Minister, before we move on, provide us with some details about what work is under way or what the time line is, given that we are more than halfway through 2024. Whilst we\u2019re consistently, during this process today, being told that operationally\u2014the fact that we\u2019re removing, gutting, the reference to the Treaty out of the bill; operationally things can still happen. But the operational framework is on its last legs as well, so it\u2019s not feeling like it\u2019s very robust or that there\u2019s much grounding in what we know should be done, so can the Minister please provide us with some information about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m particularly interested because, whilst, again, the Minister will feel like he\u2019s addressed it and has attempted to answer it on several occasions, I don\u2019t feel particularly satisfied with the response in so far as I don\u2019t feel any further ahead as to why these provisions are being removed, particularly because I look at advice that the Minister received in February this year from his department. It clearly sets out, on several occasions, the benefit of having the Treaty provisions and the specific references that were grounded in that whole new section 6A, inserted by clause 7, that\u2019s now being removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIn lieu of not banging on a drum\u2014that\u2019s probably done and dusted now as we\u2019ve moved on\u2014I would like the Minister, though, to turn his mind to page 10. When we look at replacement section 51, amended by clause 11\u2014and it may seem like a relatively simple clause\u2014it\u2019s looking at the fact that references to management plans are now changing to case management plans and are, I presume, providing a little bit more specificity about what that is. But, when we look at the replacement subsection 51(4)\u2014\u201CEach case management plan must be consistent with the resources available to the chief executive to manage the prisoner.\u201D\u2014as has been previously mentioned all the way through, or at several instances through, this bill, it\u2019s replete with examples of where resources are afforded or where the chief executive knows that resources are available. I would like the Minister to reassure us, at this stage, the committee of the whole House stage, that the case management plans aren\u2019t completely contingent on resources and that it doesn\u2019t create a bit of a precedent in terms of how that interacts with every other aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs we go through, I will have some further questions about how that relates, then, to the rehabilitative programme, how it relates to the ability to, therefore, go up for parole, and how it even relates for some of the reasons that can be made for ensuring that people are able to be transferred, because the Minister has prefaced his opening statements about the fact that he\u2019s very proud of the fact that rehabilitation is supposedly a bit of a cornerstone of this bill, and yet there\u2019s many, many fish-hooks, I think, in so far as the practical application.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIt is incumbent upon this committee, because this is the only chance that we get to ask some of these very specific questions and because things often sound good when high-level statements and proclamations are being made, but there\u2019s some really, really concerning parts of specific practical application here. That is another thing I would like the Minister to turn his mind to, if he could. As has been prefaced earlier by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb all the way through here, it is contingent upon resources being available. This is just one example. I do intend, or hope to intend, to move on to provide several more. So I\u2019m going to leave it at that and give the Minister an opportunity to get some specific advice, if he is able to answer about case management and resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EActually, I will ask one more question just because it took such a long time to get another one. As we move on, I also note that another specific example is when we talked about replacement subsections 92C(2) and (2A), amended by clause 23, \u201CParticular matters relating to imaging technology searches\u201D: \u201C(2) An image produced as a result of an imaging technology search for the purposes of detecting an unauthorised item must be disposed of within 24 hours.\u201D As I was reading this, it immediately came to mind as yet another example of how there\u2019s quite a lot of creep and increase in duty and staff duty within this bill. And yet we know that there\u2019s certainly been a cost saving exercise that\u2019s gone under way within the Department of Corrections. We know that there is no fat, absolutely no fat, in the back office. In fact, that\u2019s been decimated quite heavily. I think that all sorts of documents that the department and the Minister refer to rely on the fact that staff safety is a number one priority, and yet you\u2019re adding quite a lot of duty. They might not sound like large duties, but the disposal of stuff, the information gathering, and the intelligence cache that are going to be required do require extra resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo, in line with the case management question, can you also, using that information technology clause as an example, talk us through how you are convinced and how you\u2019re confident that adding all these extra duties won\u2019t overstretch an already overstretched department and won\u2019t result in a variety of negative outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00222b270f70375443af892530248bf3ac72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b270f70375443af892530248bf3ac72\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Well, first of all, I just want to reassure the member that there are no fish-hooks in the legislation at all. Yes, she is right that the legislation is designed to make our corrections officers safer and to make their operations more efficient so they actually have the time to be able to dedicate to things like case management and prisoner safety. It refers to resources because, for a long time, they\u2019ve been operating under strength. In a service like corrections, when you\u2019re operating under strength, you have to start making trade-offs, and you have to start making decisions in terms of the safety of your officers and the safety of the prisoners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe good news is that in the last eight months, we\u2019re now above the rate of attrition. They\u2019re doing very well with their recruiting campaign. Every month now, I\u2019m going to graduations where they\u2019re recruiting, training, and deploying up to 140 new corrections officers. What that means is that those resources are starting to come back online. Those options are starting to become more available to them. They can just start delivering more rehabilitation programmes. That is quite simply what the reference to resources is\u2014\u201Cas resources allow\u201D\u2014because that is what will govern what they can actually deliver on a day-to-day basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022b799e3ff4f59471ebe965b39bc42e05d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b799e3ff4f59471ebe965b39bc42e05d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. I\u2019m sure I won\u2019t take a full call here, because I only have a short point to make, but it is around a very important point and that is the use of what\u2019s now called \u201Cless lethal\u201D devices to restrain or suppress prisoners. My first point\u2019s a very, very short one, and it\u2019s on clause 21A, which simply says: \u201CIn section 88 replace \u2018non-lethal\u2019 with \u2018less-lethal\u2019.\u201D My short point is a drafting one, and that is that on my reading of section 88 as it currently stands, it doesn\u2019t use the word \u201Cnon-lethal\u201D, so you can\u2019t replace it with \u201Cless lethal\u201D. Now, I may have that wrong, but I\u2019m sure your officials will be able to tell me where that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other point is this, though\u2014and I\u2019m looking at clause 21, page 12, running on to page 13 of the bill. It says \u201CAn officer may only use a less-lethal weapon prescribed for use in dealing with a prisoner who is passively resisting a lawful order in the situation described in \u2026 [the section] if the officer has reasonable grounds for believing there is an imminent threat of injury or harm to the prisoner or any other person.\u201D Now, with the threat of self-harm, I can understand that the prisoner might not be resisting the officer but that they\u2019re harming themselves, so you need to debilitate the prisoner using these devices so that you can then go and make that prisoner safe. I can understand that kind of situation. But I\u2019m a bit perplexed as to why we have, on the end of the sentence, \u201Cor any other person\u201D, because passive resistance is, by definition, not threatening any other person. You\u2019ve got an ability to use these\u2014and let\u2019s be honest; it\u2019s called a \u201Cless-lethal\u201D device because it\u2019s known that there have been instances where people have died from this being used on them, so we\u2019ve got to be very cautious indeed about that. So if we\u2019ve got someone passively resisting, not self-harming but refusing, how on earth can they be putting any other person at risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis seems to be a kind of excuse to use a device that\u2019s totally unnecessary, and it simply puts a lack of clarity into a section that, because of the seriousness of these devices, needs to be as clear as possible. My view is that those last words \u201Cor any other person\u201D should be deleted because it simply clouds that issue. That\u2019s all I\u2019m going to say, but I do think that\u2019s an important point, given that these are tasers and pepper spray, which can be lethal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4f757cf35fc47fb966a70e30fa7c7b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4f757cf35fc47fb966a70e30fa7c7b2\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, quite simply the fact of the matter is there are many, many different situations and scenarios, inside a corrections environment, where a passive prisoner, someone that\u2019s refusing to follow instruction, could be putting other people at risk. Whether it be the fact that they might have just seriously assaulted another prisoner that needs some medical attention and they\u2019re blocking the doorway passively, the corrections officers might have to take action, or whether it be a prisoner that has barricaded himself somewhere passively or put himself somewhere passively where it\u2019s taking three or four or five corrections officers to try and deal with them whilst, at the same time, someone else is requiring assistance, that may mean that they have to take action. It\u2019s a dynamic environment. Force is always a last resort for our corrections officers. They will always use de-escalation, but there are going to be times with a passive prisoner where they may be putting other people at risk and they have to take action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u0022063f12d5831b42858b3775de24dc88ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022063f12d5831b42858b3775de24dc88ba\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e837288b5c8e433d9b35dc4ac901b87b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e837288b5c8e433d9b35dc4ac901b87b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to touch on some clauses that I understand have not been referred to in the committee stage at this point, and that starts at clause 36, which is part of Part 1. This is really important because it relates to the rights of prisoners who are charged with an alleged offence, internally, in prisons, Minister. New section 133A relates to the role of a hearing adjudicator. My experience of hearing adjudicators is that they are well trained and that they do an excellent job in the prisons in terms of conducting. They\u2019re not just anyone; they have to undertake specified training in order to do that. This bill introduces a new change in that process, and it relates to the ability for a hearing adjudicator to, basically, proceed with a disciplinary hearing without the prisoner being present. Up to now, prisoners are expected and required to be present for proceedings of this nature. There is also an opportunity for a prisoner to appeal to a visiting justice a decision that a hearing adjudicator has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve spent five years as a visiting justice in prisons in this country before coming to this place, so I\u2019m very, very familiar with this process. What does concern me, though, Minister, is that new subsection (3), basically, indicates that there is no right of appeal to a visiting justice solely against the decision of a hearing adjudicator, under new subsection (1), on the basis that the hearing adjudicator made the decision to proceed in the absence of the prisoner. I can recollect countless occasions where there would be prisoners who\u2019d be brought to the hearing and, for some reason, it wouldn\u2019t immediately become clear as to what the issue might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, there might be circumstances, for example, where the hearing adjudicator makes the decision to proceed with a hearing in the absence of the prisoner. Yes, there is an evidentiary threshold that\u2019s required to be met, but there\u2019s no further detail about what needs to happen. It just needs to be that the adjudicator receives evidence from an officer that the prisoner has refused. There are circumstances where there might be family bereavements and there might be issues that the prisoner is dealing with, that may not be apparent at the time, but that is the genesis upon which the prisoner makes a decision to refuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: as I understand it, the new section actually provides no discretion at all for a visiting justice, who is at the appellate level, to, basically, consider reasons for the failure to present the prisoner, and, if this is so, is he open to make changes in that particular space? It would seem to me that it would be an affront to natural justice if the visiting justice simply was not able to consider an appeal without all of the information. That\u2019s the first one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe second one is in relation to clause 40. This is where the visiting justices themselves make the decision, and they may actually make the decision that the prisoner is refused, etc. There is a requirement for the visiting justice to proceed with the hearing. If they do so, they must record the decision in writing and the reasons for it. Now, my experience with visiting justices is that the reasons that are recorded are in the prison\u2019s visiting justice book. Often, it\u2019s a ledger where there are maybe five compartments\u2014date, who the person is, what the penalty is, whether it\u2019s proven, and then a signature or stamp. Is that satisfactory for the purposes of the decision? It is extremely rare, in my recollection, for visiting justices to, effectively, dictate what in the courts would be delivered as a written decision. I\u2019d like some clarity around what it means by \u201Cmust record in writing the decision and reasons for it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere is also no expectation that that decision would be made available to the prisoner. In a court context, that would be open to the prisoner. But, if the prisoner chooses not to actually attend, the visiting justice goes ahead with the hearing, in the absence of the prisoner, and makes a decision, which needs to be recorded in writing. How will the prisoner know what the outcome of that is, apart from whether they perhaps are on their way to self-confinement or loss of privileges? I think there is an important distinction between the two, and there are a couple of other areas that I\u2019d like to pick up on as well, but perhaps I could leave it there in the first instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002240e3d1058a764748b2100351752cdf3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240e3d1058a764748b2100351752cdf3c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I think the whole purpose of why this was put into the bill is to make the disciplining process more efficient and safer, leading to safety for our prison officers and the other prisoners as well. I think that the reason why\u2014clearly the reason why the prisoner can\u2019t appeal the fact that he wasn\u2019t there is because he\u2019s refused to actually attend. He can still appeal the actual outcome of the hearing, but he doesn\u2019t have any appeal rights in terms of failing to appear, because he\u2019s been given the opportunity and he\u2019s chosen not to appear. In terms of whether or not there\u2019s personal mitigating circumstances, that is very operational, but my experience is\u2014and I\u2019m sure it\u2019s the member\u2019s experience too\u2014that Corrections will work around that. They\u2019ll give them every opportunity to appear, and if there\u2019s mitigating circumstances\u2014like a death in the family or, for some reason, they just don\u2019t feel up to it\u2014then Corrections will take that into account and work around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe other point in terms of\u2014of course the matter has to be recorded by the justice, and of course the prisoner will be informed of the outcome of that hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a50f4c02719144249b639f623c99eaa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a50f4c02719144249b639f623c99eaa7\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. Thank you. I note your point about not going back and repeating information, so I\u2019ve got a number of questions around the use of body image scanning technology, some questions around the increased monitoring and surveillance that happens through this bill, and then, if I have time, I\u2019d like to ask some questions about the mixing of adult and youth populations within prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EStarting with the body image scanning technology, we are supportive of introducing this technology as a way to reduce the need for rub-down and strip searches within prison, and my question to the Minister on the body image scanning technology is: what other steps can we take to eventually remove the need for rub-down and strip searches? I ask that because when I was reading the Turiki! Turiki! report by the Safe and Effective Justice Advisory Group, there was a statistic in there that said that 53 percent of women in prison have experienced sexual violence in their lifetime, and 15 percent of men in prison have experienced sexual violence within their lifetime. We can take those as conservative figures, understanding the under-reporting of instances of sexual harm. The reason I raised those statistics is because it\u2019s clear that the experience of sexual violence is prevalent within our prison population and that things like strip searches and rub-down searches can be retriggering and retraumatising for people who have experienced sexual violence in their lifetime. In what ways can we move away from those strip searches and rub-down searches? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI also note the statement within the regulatory impact statement for the bill that staff at sites where imaging technology has been deployed report that it is harder to get unauthorised items into prison when body imaging technology is used, compared to strip and rub-down searches. Staff also report that physical searches can lead to prisoners becoming upset and confrontational, reducing staff safety. So we are supportive of moving towards this technology, but what are some of the barriers that prisons are experiencing in terms of introducing that technology? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI read in the regulatory impact statement that there are obviously privacy concerns around the use of that technology and the collection and disposal of those images. I\u2019m keen to hear some more about how this bill makes that technology more prevalent throughout our prisons, but I\u2019m also really interested in the disposal of those images too\u2014given they are quite intimate; you know, taking imaging of somebody\u2019s body\u2014and how those will be disposed of, particularly given there have been some concerns around the way that, say, police officers, for example, collect images of people and how they dispose of those, noting the case around tens of thousands of images of young M\u0101ori being collected by police officers and not disposed of adequately in line with the provision set out within the Privacy Act. Those are my questions around body image scanning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe next point that I wanted to move on to is around surveillance and monitoring, and I\u2019m really interested in understanding how the Minister has been able to balance the ability of people in prison to maintain their connections with people on the outside with the importance of anticipating any risks to people in prison, noting the submission from the Law Society, which talks about how increasing powers to enable monitoring of in-person visits raises privacy issues. One of the guiding principles within the bill is that contact between prisoners and their families must be encouraged and supported, so far as is reasonable and practicable, within the resources available and to the extent that this contact is consistent with the maintenance of safety and security requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ENow, we know that people in prison\u2019s having connection to their communities and their wh\u0101nau and their friends is an important part of the rehabilitation process. They need to understand that people care for them and have expectations of them. They need to maintain these relationships in order to be able to reflect on their behaviour and their actions and to address that and to change that, but I guess what I\u2019m concerned about is that increased monitoring and surveillance might reduce the ability for prisoners to have that connection, even though that\u2019s a core principle within the bill. In the People against Prisons Aotearoa submission, they stated that incarceration is an isolating experience that, and separation from family and wh\u0101nau, is a significant stressor on the mental wellbeing of incarcerated people. How can we maintain those connections with these new provisions and not put in unfair\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022eae65a87f81b4cb59a5f7c1054a821c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eae65a87f81b4cb59a5f7c1054a821c3\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, that\u2019s a really good question around technology. Obviously, we\u2019re fully committed to that. We want to continue to roll technology out. We want to try and get away from, as much as possible, physical searches and strip searches, but you\u2019re never going to be able to eliminate them completely, because, unfortunately, you\u2019re dealing with people that are very inventive in the way they get contraband into the prison, which not only puts prison officers or corrections officers at risk but fellow prisoners as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIn terms of the images, the images are kept for 24 hours and then automatically deleted. The only one that sees the image is the person that\u2019s actually operating the scanners at the\u00A0time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab9e8a685bb541f7942fc54817b74c8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab9e8a685bb541f7942fc54817b74c8f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you for that. It\u2019s good that we\u2019re doing a whole lot of new material. I haven\u2019t heard any repetition for some time as we\u2019re working progressively through this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI have a very short point, and it is actually about the collection of intelligence information. New section 127F, on page 24 of the bill, says that \u201C(1) The chief executive may authorise an eligible employee to be an authorised intelligence person\u201D. This is the person who can surveil prisoners, open their mail, listen in on their telephone conversations, and listen in on their visiting\u2014do all of those things that are so highly invasive\u2014for an intelligence purpose, which is a restrictive purpose. But I want to focus in on the words \u201Celigible employee\u201D. Now, it might sound like that means it\u2019s a corrections officer who\u2019s been identified. I dug around, because I was a bit perplexed by that. Section 111 of the principal Act says, \u201CEligible employee means a person who is an employee of the chief executive,\u201D\u2014that\u2019s fine\u2014\u201Can employee of a contractor, an employee of a contracted provider, or a contracted provider\u201D. These are not public servants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, Minister, I think we\u2019ve made a mistake here. I don\u2019t think we intend for an employee of a contractor, who is not a sworn officer, to be able to search and surveil a prisoner, because that is an exercise of quite an extraordinary State power. I would suggest, and I suspect, that we always intend that it\u2019s corrections officers who are employed by the department through the chief executive who are able to surveil prisoners and see this highly personal information and use it for intelligence purposes. There\u2019s a bit of a slip here, because all of a sudden, we\u2019ve got people who are three steps removed. It\u2019s a person who is contracted to a person who is contracted to the department. That can\u2019t be right. We can\u2019t have people who are not answerable to the State being intelligence officers and surveilling prisoners. I\u2019m going to leave it there, because it\u2019s an important point and I\u2019d really appreciate an answer from the Minister on that. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00224859b72035564d6eab556e0eac4009dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224859b72035564d6eab556e0eac4009dd\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a good point, because I agree with him that it is a big power\u2014it\u2019s at the discretion of the chief executive. Quite simply, why it refers to contractors is, of course, because we have a private prison that\u2019s being run by Serco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u00220804dfea7856415b82841165ef8e19bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220804dfea7856415b82841165ef8e19bd\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2c7c12ce8b14de4bd39d92e682978ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2c7c12ce8b14de4bd39d92e682978ef\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Further to what my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has just said, when we\u2019re talking about authorised persons and the process that\u2019s going through\u2014because if I go back a step, the first bullet point under the intentions of this bill is: \u201Cexplicitly empowering Corrections to monitor [prisoners\u2019] communications and information sources for intelligence purposes to improve prison and public safety\u201D. There are four parts to this bill, and this is one of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI understand, as the Minister very, very briefly touched on earlier on in his opening remarks, that the system needs a little bit of updating. The way that prisoners communicate with each other isn\u2019t always by snail mail anymore; there are all sorts of other forms of communication, so that needs to be accommodated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen I look at new section 127K, inserted by clause 33, which is just a little bit further on from the previous clause that was asked, I do think that the way that\u2019s worded does lend itself to some future sort of misinterpretation. But new section 127K, \u201CMonitoring of exempt prisoner communications and information sources\u201D, says that the authorised intelligence person, who we know, therefore, is an employee appointed from the chief executive, \u201Cwho is monitoring, collecting, or using prisoner communications and information sources under this subpart and who forms the view that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the prisoner communications and information sources are exempt prisoner communications and information sources must\u2014(a) promptly stop monitoring, collecting, or using them\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI just wonder if you could give us a little bit more information on how that process actually works. You can imagine a person, during the course of performing their duties as an authorised intelligence person, who is privy to information that they then have reasonable grounds to believe is exempt\u2014let\u2019s say it\u2019s medical information. When they\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022695396f2644d48649280ebd923133ab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022695396f2644d48649280ebd923133ab5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002273a619db7a32478f924df80a4e522fa0\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a9e78a07e744a868cedeeb472197825\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221a87a17ccd6d467c932379d332df4a94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a87a17ccd6d467c932379d332df4a94\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Resource Management (Extended Duration of Coastal Permits for Marine Farms) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. The committee has also considered the Corrections Amendment Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca4a565d9936435182ac61239a12c5f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca4a565d9936435182ac61239a12c5f3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202408208253479edd8b4c358966657cf52ee7b9000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.57 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"