"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9e016b0cd7f4ab8ac0f27fad71802e9\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 5 NOVEMBER 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f185f55f9c642c1a00ebfb9bc271321\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 5 NOVEMBER 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a99b4ed0eba5471da90b5776f62fca39\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6ca71882a7643c387d889c6b7ca271c\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002238767fbcc4ad4a6b9c83708ccb459ade\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238767fbcc4ad4a6b9c83708ccb459ade\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002285bfc8a49c494e1dad124525897d9269\u0022\u003EMembers Sworn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b2a67d1cd11421a974e610c4fd05cde\u0022\u003EMembers Sworn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223603beeb60a64ed489ba21927d8e3314\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223603beeb60a64ed489ba21927d8e3314\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that Benjamin Cody Doyle is present and wishes to make the Affirmation of Allegiance. Would Benjamin Cody Doyle please come forward to the chair on my right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022 data-id=\u00223df4cea76772430b8569707554dfda57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223df4cea76772430b8569707554dfda57\u0022\u003EBENJAMIN DOYLE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Ko ahau, ko Benjamin Cody Doyle, e k\u012B ana i runga i te pono, i te tika, i te ng\u0101kau tapatahi me te whaka\u016B an\u014D ka noho pirihonga, ka noho p\u016Bmau ki a K\u012Bngi Ti\u0101re te Tuatoru me t\u014Dna k\u0101hui whakaheke e ai ki te ture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6bbb51550d2441ba1cb7801375c5353\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d8e890357e8488a8d33e2f24267bba8\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002239d41cc462de4637a950cbd63c937cc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239d41cc462de4637a950cbd63c937cc8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Three petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022149528f10e7b4063bf2e39fb9408761d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022149528f10e7b4063bf2e39fb9408761d\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Gayleen Mackereth requesting that the House of Representatives make English an official language of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Robyn Cain requesting that the House urge the Government to remove all court and legal costs for New Zealanders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Raina Vermani requesting that the House urge the Government to select applications from the expressions of interest for the parent resident visa ballot whose ballots are expiring in October 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad8dc08ce2d14a91b44361668ea7c23c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad8dc08ce2d14a91b44361668ea7c23c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered 27 papers for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00222435e20cb2454ae2897f147165d655bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222435e20cb2454ae2897f147165d655bd\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023-24 annual reports for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EBroadcasting Standards Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECallaghan Innovation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECreative New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECriminal Cases Review Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EElectricity Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EHealth and Disability Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ELaw Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinistry of Foreign Affairs and Trade\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand on Air\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPublic Service Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ERacing Integrity Board, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EWaka Kotahi, and National Land Transport Fund\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Estatements of performance expectations for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EBroadcasting Standards Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECreative New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Language Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand on Air, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EWaka Kotahi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Estatement of intent for Waka Kotahi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Eupdated statements of intent and performance expectations for Health and Disability Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Estrategic intentions for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinistry of Primary Industries, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports in relation to selected non-departmental appropriations for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinistry of Primary Industries, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports in relation to selected non-departmental appropriations for the year ended 30 June 2024 for the following portfolios within Vote Business, Science and Innovation:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EAuckland, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EEnergy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment responses to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Environment Committee on petition of Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereferral of petition of Aly Cook, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereferral of petition of Fabio Reis\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Efinancial statements for the year ended 31 March 2024 for M\u0101ori Purposes Fund Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022af3df91f79c54df1bcb7ffa4b2670547\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af3df91f79c54df1bcb7ffa4b2670547\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the report of the Controller and Auditor-General entitled How well four councils are responding to a changing climate. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Nine select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022984b7660f50a4c19abd8c5bde976fd74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022984b7660f50a4c19abd8c5bde976fd74\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Health Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESmokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2), and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETherapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPrivacy Amendment Bill, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereview briefing on the 2022-23 annual review of the Parliamentary Counsel Office\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereview briefing on the 2022-23 annual review of Ng\u0101puhi Investment Fund Limited (trading as Tupu Tonu), and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereview briefing on the 2022-23 annual review of Te Taura Whiri I Te Reo M\u0101ori (M\u0101ori Language Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Jennifer Bolton: Police contact mental health services for advice when a person is suicidal, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9edaab799b344b18cfec008d9ca4a34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9edaab799b344b18cfec008d9ca4a34\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading, and the review briefings are set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4d85f92b8744275a1c3ef0ea413da9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4d85f92b8744275a1c3ef0ea413da9b\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8b4d52c64d74fd7aaa415a5a5a294f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8b4d52c64d74fd7aaa415a5a5a294f3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That bill is set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022519c79c2eb6f4c0e87282fb0c36a163f\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002279ddd26a5e8a4e10a3b3f889cdf1d957\u0022\u003EInvasion of Parihaka\u2014Anniversary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002208f32e1b68204a268417fffc7dbb246e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208f32e1b68204a268417fffc7dbb246e\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I seek leave to move a motion without notice and without debate that this House commemorate the anniversary of the invasion of Parihaka that took place on 5 November 1881, known as Te r\u0101 o te p\u0101huatanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6e2da68fccb4251b36309ed979658e1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f24c856a3f447bc98bd074871977212\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: He h\u014Dnore he kor\u014Dria, he maungarongo ki runga i te whenua. He whakaaro pai ki ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E[Honour and glory to God, peace throughout the land. And goodwill to all people.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI move, That this House commemorate the anniversary of the invasion of Parihaka that took place on 5 November 1881, known as Te r\u0101 o te p\u0101huatanga, on which 1,600 men, women, and children were brutally attacked, abducted, and imprisoned by colonial troops for peacefully resisting the theft of their whenua; that this dark moment in Aotearoa history caused more than the destruction of physical property\u2014it caused extreme personal, emotional, and physical harm that is still felt today\u2014that the legacy of Parihaka is not just history, it is alive and well today; and that we honour our t\u016Bpuna\u2019s commitment to peace and aroha, which they understood cannot be achieved without justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9212096143b4b64a2d40d1f3b8dd5dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9212096143b4b64a2d40d1f3b8dd5dd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House comes now to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243a6f99e2b4943d993ff47ebc7e31f65\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got to vote on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247d38b626de64dacb6d26722724c5b9f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry\u2014what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219c7eefdeedf4c9faf67a5d123bc4346\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got to vote on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e18df619d7b64e98a602ce97a7c70c18\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a99142df52d4483683e48aa750daf085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a99142df52d4483683e48aa750daf085\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much for your intervention there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f8b3d1497e24571b295d3f5eceab4cd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m here to help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb33f96738134b7ca8537b56e1a36773\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And so am I; so you can have a question now\u2014first one up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d4126e97f8b14973be5713ee51dd0526\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226386418185224f6fa9ebafb295e07943\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022566ad86338f74db1bfab6ad149b63def\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00225890c666f2474e1b82712559902737f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225890c666f2474e1b82712559902737f6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1655d83c4ca425da6a4f30d22d508ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1655d83c4ca425da6a4f30d22d508ee\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and in particular I stand by this Government\u2019s action to conclude negotiations on a trade agreement with the Gulf Cooperation Council which will deliver duty-free access for 99 percent of New Zealand\u2019s exports over 10 years. Growing trade relationships across the world is a key part of our plan to grow the economy, to lift incomes, and to create jobs for Kiwis. Can I just acknowledge the fantastic work of trade Minister Todd McClay in getting this deal over the line and setting our exporters up for more success so that we can grow our economy and earn the money that we need to invest in the world-class health and education that Kiwis deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e20f85a299648a5ace04270411e278c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement \u201CWe\u2019ve got very good processes for managing conflict of interest.\u201D and that \u201CMinisters need to understand and internalise the responsibility that they have.\u201D; if so, is he confident that all of his Ministers are managing their conflicts of interest appropriately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb7c00223d274dd0b3987104b05c0f62\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019m confident real or perceived conflicts were managed, declared, and are being managed appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c222213ba741649ad47796a8233449\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm if any conflicts of interest were declared and managed by any Cabinet Ministers regarding their association with the tobacco industry when the Government made changes to New Zealand\u2019s smoke-free laws and the taxation of tobacco products?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f3a4407c24b4917bd6236a69b74abc6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I can confirm is that any real or perceived conflicts are raised. We\u2019ve assiduously followed Cabinet Office advice from day one of this Government, and we take that very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e073a3d2afd942b6a1efdbd91ca0979e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked the Prime Minister whether any conflicts of interest were declared and managed regarding a specific issue that Cabinet has considered, and he did not address that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e6c15a4f60846ea88a0867dbb9739d2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister might like to consider his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac17fdd8e3b74c5790c206edde596019\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As per the previous Government, the policy of the Cabinet Office is not to publish conflicts, as has been the policy for successive Governments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022013e9bfb03524d1888db27c13716509b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did any Ministers leave the room when the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2) or the $216 million tax break for heated tobacco products were discussed by Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f3c7ead7f98465a89ddf37591703cb2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, Cabinet conflicts, perceived or real, are managed appropriately and assiduously through the Cabinet Office guidelines. We have taken that very seriously. We operate very differently from the previous administration. We don\u2019t need 16 reminders from the Cabinet Office to manage conflicts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee806ebf1300408c98be67dbb0901d2c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. If Cabinet does indeed take their responsibilities very seriously, then the Prime Minister should have no difficulty answering the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240392ee729414f85b789df3848eac89f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s true, but there will always be aspects of Cabinet Government that aren\u2019t in the public arena at the time that the question might be asked. The Prime Minister has answered, I think, quite reasonably given the nature of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a034f041df449e08fa596d3fe8273e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Who provided the advice to the Government that nicotine is as harmful as coffee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228f38b641ed54592a2890ff8bf5cbac6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, can you ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9613f2b069f42f4b492e7558b637d42\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Who provided advice to the Government that nicotine is as harmful as caffeine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d2c2c86dd44729833a05c90c5a699d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That would be a question that would be best directed to the Associate Minister of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea33e039c5a3427e8240ee6b90ff4c95\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Who provided \u201Cindependent\u201D advice to Casey Costello justifying the $216 million tax break on heated tobacco products his Government agreed to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc4854ea73843a5a46d6c29a7cf0b0d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d say to that member what we are doing is this country has had tremendous success at lowering daily smoking rates. We\u2019re down at 6.8 percent, heading to 5 percent to deliver on Smokefree Aotearoa 2025. We are now in a place where we actually have really hard, stubborn smokers that we\u2019re trying to get off cigarettes and into alternatives. We\u2019re prepared on this side to try something different. When he represents the $216 million, I think, as a tax break, it\u2019s not a tax break. What it is is a difference of moving from cigarettes into an alternative product at a lower excise duty. We are good, prudent economic managers on this side of the House, and we\u2019re making sure that we are allowing for that, in an accounting sense, for the most conservative transition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af0a652a3700480e8d343a2345d30205\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Despite the very long answer the Prime Minister gave, he didn\u2019t actually address the question of who provided the supposedly independent advice to Casey Costello justifying the decision to remove the tax on heated tobacco products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421831763f6944ae98881abec4651ef1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know, but he did say that the Government doesn\u2019t consider it to be a tax break, which would kind of nullify the rest of the answer. But take another question, without penalty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286f5cf0447d04e8583facc60222df47c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Who provided independent advice to Casey Costello justifying the tax changes when it comes to heated tobacco products?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e56d5359364795b2cd81135867c291\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, Ministers receive a lot of advice from a lot of different sources all of the time. They don\u2019t always take it, but I just ask the member to direct the question directly to the Associate Minister of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276e5da70bced47c5a98ff9009ed60c45\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If he doesn\u2019t know who\u2019s providing advice to the Minister, how can he be confident that conflicts of interest are being appropriately managed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a07b173064403386e0bfe0493b830a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because I know that that Minister is determined to lower smoking rates across this country and is doing so incredibly passionately and is determined to do it. I\u2019d just say to that member: if he cares a lot about conflicts, I wouldn\u2019t call a sister-in-law a distant relative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8f39bf616634e38ae95a67a883cf377\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226b5dd385fba4c46a57ef782b33b5fb4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Points of order are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225ec0cd273cb493090d441d3e86b983d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, last year the Prime Minister objected to the fact that he himself brought a member of his own family into the debate, and you required me to withdraw and apologise for the Prime Minister doing that. We\u2019ve now got a situation where, repeatedly, the Government have named a public servant who happens to be related to a member of the Opposition in the House\u2014a public servant who cannot speak back, a public servant who is part of a politically neutral Public Service, a public servant who declared their conflict of interest and has done absolutely nothing wrong. As you required me to, the Prime Minister should be required to withdraw and apologise for that. We had a situation in the House before the recess where the point of order process and personal explanation process was abused by the Deputy Prime Minister. I don\u2019t think you should allow the Prime Minister to continue with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecaec0120b3e4a9abe4f7220b04b6910\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister might like to consider whether he withdraws that particular remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022719b8e1e978946069dc7867cde9bab55\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t consider I named anybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225417a993a2f24846bcee1144e3d9749a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the inference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228447c74239f04ad7b4e58e65a249ff28\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d0012b52389445c968b0a0c04de9841\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Minister for Children that allowing providers to use force against children may be seen as \u201Cincreasing the potential risk of abuse in custody\u201D, and, if so, why is he allowing boot camp providers to use force on children, especially when it perpetuates the abuse in State care detailed in the Whanaketia report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd5c9a24a50e4d6f8275bd6deee466b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, what we want to see across Government, across the delivery of social services, is enhanced child safeguarding and protection. We want to see advocacy available for those young people in those facilities. But we\u2019re also acknowledging that these are some of our most serious young offenders, and if there are issues around absconding or if there are issues around harm to each other or to themselves, then restraint is appropriate, but it\u2019s got to be used under strict guidelines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223800f450bd72452fbc3ee65a8163c014\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u002289b3a429169a430aa038cd1f74d75b49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289b3a429169a430aa038cd1f74d75b49\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00222b93f3b44bc440faab84a798e8ec73e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b93f3b44bc440faab84a798e8ec73e9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen the latest monthly ANZ Business Outlook survey. Primarily, this measures how firms are thinking about the future but also has some indicators of how they are feeling about the here and now. In terms of the here and now, on the whole, firms think their business activity has declined compared to 12 months ago. This measure has improved compared to the previous survey but is still weak, reflecting where the economy is at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224844c96d178b44dea05af1c428a547b6\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: How are firms feeling about the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cc52496d72c478290a29140ef3ca667\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Firms are feeling much better about the future. The ANZ Business Outlook includes a measure of firms\u2019 outlook for their own activity, looking 12\u00A0months into the future. This is very strong\u2014in fact, the strongest it has been since 2014. Investment intentions and employment intentions are also rising, again looking a year into the future. The survey also measures overall business confidence\u2014a net 66\u00A0percent of businesses think that general business conditions will be better in 12 months\u2019 time. This measure of business confidence continues to rise at a new 10-year high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b8a8d9dc7c48d2bd3cd0288c6a2b9c\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: How does she interpret these results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281957ae8cd49406d9ee9183773aee3b4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The results of the ANZ Business Outlook survey indicate that firms feel the end of the recession has been reached and they see better times ahead. Businesses have been doing it tough for a long time, but they are increasingly optimistic about the future. This is consistent with economic forecasts. The Reserve Bank, for example, is expecting a negative GDP result in the previous quarter\u2014the September quarter\u2014but a positive result in the current quarter and a steadily growing economy in 2025 and beyond. Inflation is back within the target band, and the Reserve Bank has begun reducing interest rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022240b0db41c6546e4a26f966ce6ef863e\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: What are the key economic releases before Christmas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226540fce402344930a372c8684d04a4b4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, tomorrow, Statistics New Zealand will release labour market stats for the September quarter. Typically, unemployment lags economic activity, meaning that the unemployment rate will rise for a time, even as the economy picks up. That will not continue for ever, however, and unemployment is expected to come down next year. GDP for the September quarter will be announced on 19 December, and both the Reserve Bank and Treasury will issue new forecasts before the end of the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c7a5be63f19497f97fb070766aec0a8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022aac50e2a400c43009d216b9d72427882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aac50e2a400c43009d216b9d72427882\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Will private for-profit organisations be able to run military-style academies and use force against young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022380963a1bf1e4b14bcef9e1e9432f2e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022380963a1bf1e4b14bcef9e1e9432f2e2\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make two points. Firstly, the member is referring to the development of a bill which is still subject to Cabinet consideration. Secondly, as is already publicly available, Cabinet has agreed that a military-style academy provider and their staff\u2014whether Oranga Tamariki or another agency\u2014would have the power to use minimum force as reasonably required. This would be to prevent a young person from being harmed, harming themselves, or harming others, or to stop them from absconding from any location. These are our most serious offenders, who must have committed at least two serious crimes with convictions of at least 10 years or more, which could be a range of things including sexual violence, aggravated robbery, or injury with intent to cause grievous bodily harm. We need to make sure that anyone working with them has the ability to keep themselves safe, keep the community safe, and keep other young people safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8c01720fc38482485ebb7683cb3b5a7\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Will she, in this House, promise that for-profit organisations will never run these military-style academies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ddcc45cfecb4ddeac1df8ce2b2d36b0\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I would have thought that the member on the other side would have wanted to create any ability for iwi and hap\u016B to have some involvement in self-determination for what happens to their young people. This will give them the ability to be able to run a programme in the future. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da5514f361c54e46bf46589beda6cd62\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s wait for the House to calm down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222531edc7cf8240ddbb958c7ecd454c00\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: If it was her intention to allow iwi and other community organisations to run these academies, then why didn\u2019t she or her officials consult with them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273efb4e7e78d467895d85e95c4f5740c\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: There is a process to go through when decisions are being made. No decisions have been made yet, and when those decisions can be spoken about, we will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f397cf6784c34872a940cabe53c5bbf9\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: How can she make the recommendation to Cabinet that third-party providers should be able to use force on young people, without speaking to the Children\u2019s Commissioner, when there are very obvious children\u2019s rights implications and risks from her proposal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c7752047efe4beba3056f6ecb044846\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: The Children\u2019s Commissioner and I meet regularly face to face, and I always say to her if there\u2019s any concerns that she would like to speak about, I\u2019m open to speaking about them. If she raises this issue with me, I will speak to her about\u00A0it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8415503e514ab9a78afefef9ff54ec\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Does she support for-profit organisations being able to run military-style academies and use force against young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6351421525d4ca78b3e3a6a419d621b\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I would just like to reiterate again that it is the power to use minimum force as reasonably required. There are situations where young people may abscond, put themselves in danger, put the community in danger, and put a whole lot of people in circumstances that they shouldn\u2019t be put in. So we need to make sure that staff have the ability to deal with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c31e555641f44657a1b375e111226bae\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Does she understand how disingenuous it looks to label something as a pilot and then seek Cabinet agreement to cement it in legislation before it\u2019s even finished and before it\u2019s even been evaluated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3d658f7e0c4b4a97ed185a049370cb\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019m proud of what we\u2019ve achieved this year. I\u2019m proud of the fact we\u2019ve managed to step up a pilot, have 10 young people have a chance to turn their lives around, and invest in making sure they have every opportunity to be the best that they can be. I\u2019m proud of that and I\u2019m looking forward to seeing many more children have that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e1b715ed5854f48a560daa30ca3facd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00226bc29fee133f47d7bcadfc6bf714f1ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bc29fee133f47d7bcadfc6bf714f1ae\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Malo le soifua manuia, Mr Speaker. Does she stand by her statement that FamilyBoost \u201Cwill make a difference to more than 100,000 Kiwi families\u201D; if so, why have fewer than half of that number actually received it so far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022734c506a88a44500b6790003f46021d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022734c506a88a44500b6790003f46021d5\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Inland Revenue estimates that in the next year alone\u2014that is, the year from 1 October to 1 October next year\u2014100,000 families will be eligible for the FamilyBoost payment. However, I would stress the fact that the FamilyBoost payment is intended to exist into future years and not just this year. I\u2019d also stress that families may be eligible for payments in some but not all quarters as they come and go from early childhood education during the year or as their household income changes as parents shift in and out of work. They may also submit all their claims at the end of the tax year and people have a full four years to put in a claim. Clearly, it is early days, but in just four weeks there have been, already, 36,514 payments made into the bank accounts of New Zealand parents. I would say this is very good progress and I would also say this: if there are any parents in New Zealand whose children have been in early childhood education for which they have been paying fees, go on to the IRD website today and make your claim. I want to see as many eligible families as possible get the payment that they deserve and I would welcome this question being asked again tomorrow and the next day so we can get that message out to Kiwi parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022794c205eea9e4e828e25be22e68d0eb6\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that most of those that have received FamilyBoost to date got less than $30 a week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022891e8f143015450c81229974af11c4c3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I would put to the member this: $30 a week is around $1,500 a year, and if that member thinks that amount of money is not material to a New Zealand family with young children, I\u2019d invite her to go and meet a family with young children, who will confirm for her that that is a meaningful sum of money. We\u2019ve always been clear that the FamilyBoost payment is paid in proportion to two things: one, the fees that a family pays\u2014so up to $75 a week of refunded fees, up to 25 percent of total fees; and, two, the income that a family receives. So there have been a range of payments made depending on the personal circumstances of families. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc73d921099419abade915616b908f2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Some would suggest that rare and reasonable is not being exercised when it comes to interjections on questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa702304d7094636867f3c51e070cd48\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Was it fair to promise up to $150 a fortnight when, as of yesterday, only 3 percent of those who have received the payment got $150?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e54c69cd1ad54d12946f533c534676e5\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, because the policy that we advertised is the policy that we\u2019ve delivered, whereby families are eligible for up to $975 in payment over the period\u2014a sum that more than 1,200 families have received; 1,243. There is a range of other payments that have been made, many in excess of $500. Hundreds of dollars are being put into the bank accounts of New Zealand parents, and members on the opposite side of the House think that\u2019s a bad thing. They oppose a policy which directly provides cost of living relief to New Zealand families and I\u2019d invite them to reconsider that position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef2f2aa8a01f4b72b4048c1b01c21016\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just make a point again that questions are being asked because they\u2019re on serious matters and people should at least attempt to listen to the answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7e1d620927f40e6b00d4676b350bd67\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If only they were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5c497c06e1548748ac71e424114c184\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, sorry, are you\u2014no comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b38dc2f8eeed4212b12b49ed9621925f\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that FamilyBoost is so hard for parents to navigate and get it right that Inland Revenue has declined 7,700 claims, or 16 percent of total claims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260ccd520681d4aa4843cf7a06462eb6e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is incorrect. In fact, I\u2019m advised by Inland Revenue that they have had feedback that the application process for the payment is straightforward. In fact, one person has gone so far as to say, \u201CI feel like I\u2019ve done something wrong because it was too easy to fill out.\u201D To members opposite, I\u2019d just remind you of your responsibility here: there are people in your electorate who deserve this money, and the feedback that we have had is that when they go on to the website, they find it straightforward. The member has continued to repeat a claim that National wants to make it difficult for people to get this\u00A0money. That claim is false\u2014the member should stop making it. She should also stop mixing her metaphors and saying that my face is both blue and that my pudding is severely lacking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262ecf00e49254ce6adf983b649835f36\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Both sides need to exercise a bit of calm, and I would just make the point that it\u2019s not the Government\u2019s responsibility to inform the Opposition of what their responsibilities are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe3729ddf5b4fdc920ffd4bd0993b7c\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she doing nothing to make it easier for families to access support when, a month in, there is only a 33 percent uptake and 7,700 applications have been declined?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be23d8bddc7e4b71827b98862b009649\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: We have made it easy for 35,000 families to get money put directly into their bank accounts and I stand by that. In addition, 3.5 million New Zealanders have had tax relief go directly into their bank accounts. What I would put to the member, once again, is this: any family who has children in early childhood education, who is paying fees, I would encourage strongly to go on to the IRD website and to make a claim for the payment they are due, and when they do that, to remember that they payment that that member wanted to put into their bank account was zero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a7eab57b4c249d5aa7415aee47af9a5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u00222ac2a4ee370e44cc89c4d39a9656a0bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ac2a4ee370e44cc89c4d39a9656a0bf\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What update can she provide about her Make it Count action plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00227bbd92c103ac42f0821c346296d87ef5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bbd92c103ac42f0821c346296d87ef5\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E This Government is continuing to supercharge our plan to lift student achievement. Yesterday, I was delighted to announce we\u2019re introducing a targeted maths acceleration programme to give more Kiwi kids confidence in mathematics. From term 1 and 2 next year, around 2,000 year 7 and 8 students who need the most help will take part in an intensive support programme to support them\u00A0progress towards required curriculum levels in mathematics. The trial will be small groups that will have tutoring and supervised online tuition as well\u2014so a hybrid approach\u2014for 30 minutes, up to four times a week for each student.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bb16e8615054b8a97f67243893fb663\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Which schools will be eligible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022940b9e3460ab4cb9b94f55e1bc7d3cc4\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Intermediate-age children have been specifically chosen for this, as they will have the least time to benefit from our curriculum changes and our resourcing changes before starting high school. The trial will be held in a cross-section of schools and kura across the country, teaching maths using The New Zealand Curriculum and teaching p\u0101ngarau using Te Marautanga o Aotearoa. It will run for 12 weeks and cost around $2 million, and we will work with schools to select those students who need the most support. It\u2019s my intention that the findings from this trial will inform decisions about scaling it up across the country from term 3 next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022054261e5ff814da79c0a27d67c297f4c\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: How else is the action plan supporting schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022397d21cd5ab248fc99f6e70d167e528d\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Last week we released the new maths curriculum for years 0 to 8, ready for schools to use from term 1\u2014a year earlier than planned. Like our structured literacy approach, the maths curriculum is knowledge rich; sets out a structured, evidence-informed approach based on the science of learning, similar to the best from across the OECD. To support teachers with the curriculum roll-out, this Government has invested $30 million into high-quality curriculum-aligned workbooks, teacher guides, lesson plans, and resources free of charge. I\u2019m pleased to share, as of today, that 369,966 students will benefit from those resources from term 1 next year\u2014an increase of over 60,000 students in the last 24 hours and an additional 241 schools who\u2019ve placed their order since 8.30 a.m. yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6bbac0c7e9c46d1b44cb881098339d0\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022384e4b6be8884e4686d727ac5201369b\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Feedback from schools has been really positive. A number of schools have already contacted me and the ministry to get involved in the trial. In relation to the maths action plan, one principal wrote to me to say, \u201CI\u2019d like to reiterate my compliments to you and your team for relentlessly focusing on improving the primary school curriculum with an important emphasis on literacy and maths.\u201D And another wrote: \u201CThis is incredibly exciting and I thank you for your commitment to our students, our teachers, and our schools.\u201D Our work programme is one that is defined by pace, clarity, and outcomes, and we are delivering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5c84caa10da4fc2b90c3c3fff20ad03\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002279882baab8cc4ec8bbda396a39f45658\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279882baab8cc4ec8bbda396a39f45658\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Does she stand by all her statements and actions regarding her release of official information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea374db70ddc4684ba72defa8ae224a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea374db70ddc4684ba72defa8ae224a5\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were made. I acknowledge there has been widespread reporting and discussion in the House\u00A0about the release of documents and handling of official information requests in my office. I don\u2019t deny there were challenges during a transitional period very early after receiving my ministerial warrant. Once my office was fully staffed, operational issues regarding management of information was remedied. I am far from the first Minister not to meet some of the obligations imposed by the Official Information Act, and I\u2019m sure I won\u2019t be the last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022181e1ea9d7324296a3d7ed7353fac5f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: How did she determine that the statement \u201Cnicotine is as harmful as caffeine\u201D was given to her by an official, when she made decisions to withhold that statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deca251c589a4048b1a2014e13e26ae1\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: There were redactions in a document that were still considered a point of debate\u2014of full and frank discussions around advice that I was being given. That information was redacted at the time because it was still part of full and frank discussions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022379d7193009c4c55920167b1800fda0a\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The question was very specific and I don\u2019t believe that response addressed it, but also earlier, when Chris Hipkins asked the Prime Minister a similar question, the Prime Minister suggested that a question be made to the Minister. Surely in doing so and avoiding addressing the question himself and putting the responsibility on to his Minister, there should be a higher\u00A0expectation in the House that the Minister would address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a0dcdb86d1047e8afc71570e039583d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, your point of order raises the issue of the appropriateness of the Prime Minister suggesting another Minister might answer it. The reality is the Minister who the question is directed towards would be expected to know more. In this case, the answer was that there was free and frank advice that was redacted. That\u2019s not unusual for a Government to redact free and frank advice from official information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e884284777a4b489331ba09f565e9df\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: How did she determine that it was appropriate to withhold that statement under section 9(2)(g)(i) of the Official Information Act if she did not know that they were an official?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef7dcdedb2a428db8e48927fc9db640\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: The statement that she\u2019s referring to was part of a broader document that was a range of advice that was given. The redaction was later rectified and the information is fully available now. The statement in it was an extract from a broader document in which talk discussed nicotine and caffeine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291daf951093a4954b1be982e64f6b930\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: When she withheld statements that efforts to reduce smoking constitute \u201Cnanny State nonsense\u201D, employing a section of the Act that specifically applies to advice tended by Ministers, officers, and employees of the Public Service, how did that conform with the Act if she doesn\u2019t know who wrote it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d247eaa0441c4734adaadb79dd171591\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I think we\u2019re traversing a document that was used very early on, as has been discussed repeatedly in this House, which had a range of policy positions and advice\u2014policy positions and previous New Zealand First policy positions and manifesto statements. It did not become part of the Cabinet paper. The work that was undertaken in this space was the implementation of the coalition agreement commitments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022981890cc1b374c89812924fe0601df53\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Broad background.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220816969e3f3242d98a523f2ecdcb6cb9\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: There was broad background documentation that was provided\u2014that has fully been traversed and the information has been discussed at length regarding the source of that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f654c6acbd894d34a16cbc8a6e5b2668\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that when she issued a revised information release to Radio New Zealand, after having been found to have acted contrary to the law by the Ombudsman, she has continued to unlawfully withhold information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f981a0ff274c38907383af94f1c756\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I have not withheld any information under the Official Information Act. The documentation that was referred to was referring to the same piece of information that was redacted early on. Through the course of the discussions with the Ombudsman, the full document was then released unredacted, for which I apologised in this House and I have rectified the situation that the Ombudsman raised. As I said earlier, I am not the first Minister that has had to rectify issues around Official Information Act disclosures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd76a23d3c14514bbb0b7339366ec92\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Sir, I want you to consider that last question. There are many Speakers\u2019 rulings against any imprecation or imputation of legal wrongdoing, and that member has deliberately broken them. I\u2019m surprised you allowed that question to go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f47e5142106c4235a23b46957f1cec5f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I actually listened very carefully to the question, and the question reflected upon the\u2014I assume it was a law relating to the Ombudsman and the Ombudsman\u2019s office, and that would bring it into an appropriate space. But what I would say is that it\u2019s not appropriate for members to use question time to make accusations against Ministers in a way that might not be well understood by the public, and that\u2019s probably where this question was. We\u2019ll now go to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fed4b16fbbcc41eb97643508dbd56d09\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Can you clarify exactly what you mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ae6afa7cffe450bbee1c8d38ce31ee4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the problem is the question itself wasn\u2019t all that clear. So what I\u2019m saying to you is that in referring to the Ombudsman\u2019s decision about using the law that governs him, to say that the Minister needed to release more information is not the same as saying that the Minister has broken the law, but it does perhaps suggest that. I think that\u2019s the difficulty that we have here. So while I accept that that\u2019s not the intention of the questioner, I\u2019m just explaining why I accept that to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d1d1df1976f4de8aad5ecf4e870e89c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure I follow that any clearer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c0e6000de4449c28fa7051b07d93828\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll tell you what, if you\u2019d like to drop by my office later, particularly if you\u2019re having trouble sleeping, I\u2019m sure I can give you an explanation that would see you doze off within seconds. Can we go to question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7ef8a7477f4f2dbe19c7d52f7bb302\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure what you\u2019ve just offered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eed958c821f4b06b102924f9eb820b3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Nor was I, halfway through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad0551688ca54f66b3f3c4d002a372cd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u00226b4ea8621f3541b0a4d3c1b451c4c8ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b4ea8621f3541b0a4d3c1b451c4c8ce\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Is she concerned that rangatahi in care and protection residences have not been given access to the basics, like healthcare, education, and freedom from violence, as Mana Mokopuna identified happening at Epuni?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022a089460a86e948b39a4d87f94bacdc78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a089460a86e948b39a4d87f94bacdc78\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E This report was written in April, not long after I became the Minister for Children. Prior to becoming Minister, I was shocked at the condition of Epuni. Once I became Minister, I asked Oranga Tamariki what could be done to improve conditions at Epuni, because it had been left in such a dire state. Since this report, we have developed and implemented an action plan with an intensive programme of work to ensure the safety and wellbeing of young people at Epuni. This has included returning to a full education programme, providing primary healthcare services and access to psychological services on site, and increasing access for advocacy services such as VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai and Mana Mokopuna. In June, I visited Epuni again, and I can confidently say there have been changes made to the way in which the residence operates, which, in turn, is creating a safer residential environment for our children and young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a64e8a31a174281b1419cb9ff938e43\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How does she reconcile her comment that Epuni has become \u201Ca nicer place to be for \u2026 children\u201D with Mana Mokopuna\u2019s findings that residents couldn\u2019t access medication, didn\u2019t receive head injury treatment, had only two hours of education a day, and experienced over-reliance on punitive measures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f413959267da4cd5a06964b173546ea8\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I would suggest that the member listen to the answer to my question. That report was from April. I stated in the original answer that we have made changes since that report happened and that we have addressed the issues that the member has just asked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcbd61238b7647ecbc3c126a5a6ae7fa\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that even after refurbishments, the \u201Coverall feel of Epuni was that it was institutional and run down\u201D; and, if so, what actions will she take to de-institutionalise the facility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c01ffcf90afe46519477adf3d2d419c0\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: The refurbishment that the member is speaking to was refurbishment that was done prior to me being Minister. We have put a lot more into the operational site since then and also into the procedures around how we are educating and how we are giving medical care and psychological care to young people within Epuni.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200adf741c5ab44e188221e2d718a9889\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: What work has been done to ensure staff and young people\u2019s safety in youth justice residences and care and protection sites?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bddc1a9d80947d7a6001ad8c432a493\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: There are over 80 standard operating procedures in the process of being implemented across various care and protection and youth justice facilities at the moment. This means staff will now understand what the expectations of them are and what the consequences of them are if they are not followed. An example of this training that is provided would be de-escalation training and specific trauma-informed training, and I am happy with the progress that has already occurred and the trajectory of care within these residential facilities, but I can assure you we are doing everything in our power to help these young people turn their lives around and to give them the opportunities to make changes in their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210b6eee4abb74a18a647bf01d5bbe675\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How will she ensure employment conditions are improved at Epuni, where vacancies struggle to be filled, staff work double shifts, feel like they can\u2019t take leave, and don\u2019t receive specialist training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022111e61348dee4c7d85a32479ed9a3990\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Once again, I suspect the member is referring to a report that was written in April. We have had a comprehensive hiring plan in place. We have looked at the culture around the residential facilities and the care and protection facilities. We are rolling out processes so that the things the member has raised today do not continue and that life is better for the young people within those residences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268abd9a73e8a4941ba0bfa65c007da6a\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What action will she take in response to Mana Mokopuna\u2019s finding that Epuni\u2014a site of historic abuse in care\u2014continues to cause trauma to past residents who are wh\u0101nau of current residents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d38dc8d6cae443b1aff600f13caa84cd\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I think over the last few questions I have answered that question. We have rolled out 80 new operating practices. We are training people in de-escalation training. We are doing specific trauma-informed training for staff. We are supporting management to make sure that they have the tools they need to do their job and deal with things when they aren\u2019t being done properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6625251249b4c41ba1111335aadd463\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcf01d0090024d7e95f8a7c4da0bc554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcf01d0090024d7e95f8a7c4da0bc554\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What recent reports has she seen on the time spent by people on welfare?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022d62f702d2c9b44c497549c105edfee37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d62f702d2c9b44c497549c105edfee37\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The Ministry of Social Development\u2019s latest Benefit System Insights report contains some very sobering forecasts of how long people on welfare are expected to require benefit support over their lifetimes. Some of the more concerning findings are that people under the age of 25 on main benefits are now forecast to spend an average of about 20 more years on benefit over their lifetimes. Under-25s on jobseeker support are forecast to spend on average about 18 more years on a benefit. Those under 20 who are receiving a youth benefit are forecast to spend an average of 23 more years on a benefit. Work-ready jobseeker support beneficiaries of all ages are forecast to spend on average about 13 more years on a benefit. These findings highlight how bad welfare dependency has become in recent years and underscore the urgent need for our Welfare That Works reforms to get more people off welfare and into work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262f69bdeb0004a73acfdcf4257ae022a\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: How do these forecasts compare to estimates in 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022002ca450f1a24e89a1979413348ba219\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Many of the estimated future years for different population groups of beneficiaries have increased significantly since 2017. For instance, the estimate that young people under 25 on a main benefit are forecast to spend an average of about 20\u00A0more years on a benefit is 39 percent longer than it was in 2017. The forecast that jobseeker support beneficiaries under 25 will spend an average of about 18 more years on a benefit is 49 percent longer than 2017. These reports also show the blame can\u2019t be placed at the feet of COVID, as the trend of people spending longer on benefits set in well before the pandemic, and the 2022 report stated its effects had mostly passed. By the end of 2019, exit rates for jobseeker benefits had already fallen to levels not seen since the unemployment benefit exit rates dropped at the peak of the global financial crisis, even though unemployment was relatively low at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002284501c5bf93c486583f4f37842310163\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284501c5bf93c486583f4f37842310163\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was a very long answer; I think answers should be more concise than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268ca69f9fd0a4434b2df5e4d4d6c838b\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What other insights does this modelling tell us about people on benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cd1a3290ea240408aa20f9d2e7dab4a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: We proactively released this report in its entirety, something that I note the previous Government didn\u2019t do, because we are open with the risk factors that contribute to some people being on benefit. These risk factors include growing up in a benefit-dependent household, low educational achievement, mental health issues, time spent in social housing, and a history of run-ins with the justice system. Addressing these risk factors is critical for the Government, and members will recognise that many of them are reflected in the Government\u2019s targets. Our Government will not tread the same path that has denied the opportunity to some of our most vulnerable. We want to make a practical difference in the lives of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb03965877845e48720c05338a6a59e\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she bringing Work for the Dole back from the dead as a punitive sanction when the evidence and official advice is clear that, \u201CWork-for-the-dole programmes do not increase the probability of participants moving off the benefit and into employment.\u201D and \u201CInstead, participants remain on benefit longer than would otherwise be the case\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002270361e8e946d4791b17d0c9af4bb50a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270361e8e946d4791b17d0c9af4bb50a0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that was also a very long question, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b7b85090c842a5b8843ffb2bdd0e83\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s completely outside the scope of this particular report, but let me answer: the risk factors that the member is so interested in, that contribute to people being on welfare for longer, are why we are introducing measures like the traffic lights\u2014to support people into work faster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c26405b4079410c990f1a03d7e010be\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0071950c5f844ae819d22c73bfcdaaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0071950c5f844ae819d22c73bfcdaaf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you don\u2019t need to. That was well and truly in scope of the primary question, with all due respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022767ce38106c04aa39e7c9173dd3a4d5a\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What are the Government\u2019s plans\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222be0e7cdd8a94d51bc6dddc11015d7b6\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0a8fdc9fa5849a682f1c06bf3f64f18\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry, there is a point of order. Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db008285e904284b47d91844a3b88f8\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: So in the supplementary question I talked about her policy which she received advice around on the probability of people staying on the benefit and the length of time that people would stay on the benefit as a result of that policy. That\u2019s very much directly in line with the question in relationship to a report that talks about forecasts of time that people would spend on the benefit. It may have been a long supplementary question, but that\u2019s just the advice that she received that I was quoting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9dcb4729c6a4cbda7d79162bf60b378\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s right; I already agree with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022644b5dc270814663aa4cd14a5ab78067\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Well, do you just\u2014sorry, before you jump into the next supplementary question, I would like the Minister to actually address my question rather than say she\u2019s going to answer another issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e441d1d3a844caa8dbc86143cad29b5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, with respect, she did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022579ea949b2e24a939368852b53c5e53f\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What are the Government\u2019s plans to support job seekers into work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acd84159d83947859a8133f5a27e4f7a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The job ahead of us to address these deep-rooted causes of welfare dependency are considerable, but so is our Government\u2019s commitment to supporting more people into work and a greater life. Some of the things we\u2019ve introduced already are a new phone-based case management service, 2,100 more places for young people to get community job coaching, more regular work seminars to support people with their job searching, and a traffic light system to help them stay on track with their benefit obligations. We are determined to reduce the number on jobseeker benefit by 50,000 within six years, because we know the difference that work makes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e133a9b738af407fbd864984a6413f3c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00221c91efbeee224d5ca3c955aa13e79729\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c91efbeee224d5ca3c955aa13e79729\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does she stand by her statement that \u201Cthis military-style academy has nothing to do with the boot camps of the past, which were absolutely horrendous\u201D; if so, does she support giving third-party military-style academy providers the power to use force against young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00222a1be49dfee44040b47454426e24b7f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a1be49dfee44040b47454426e24b7f8\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E In response to the first part of the question: yes. The boot camps of the past I was referring to were around decades ago, with untrained staff, no proper oversight, and in an isolated setting of appalling conditions. In response to the second part of the question: yes. This may mean that, in the future, we can extend the enabling community and partnership arrangements to have section 396 providers able to be involved in the military-style academies and to be able to work alongside Oranga Tamariki in the lives of young people\u2014this may be iwi\u2014where they wouldn\u2019t have been able to otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa2505082b85420f87c4cdbb695e1683\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the advice from Oranga Tamariki officials that the provision of powers to use force may result in harm if not used appropriately, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c049ce4f26bb408d8296c07fbdb1a55c\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; that\u2019s why it must be used appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220607915535cf4c738643c982d19916a6\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Who is correct: the Prime Minister, who said his preference was not to use force; or the Minister, who said, in a leaked Cabinet paper, \u201CI consider that clear authority is needed for the use of force\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253d47abeb88b48ca800302d0d183479c\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I won\u2019t be referring to a document that I have been unable to verify.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fceccbf9fc8140089eec1fd7a1158b6a\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to the Prime Minister, who said, \u201CWhat I\u2019m interested in is \u2018Have we got the layers of child safeguarding?\u2019 \u201D, when her paper had no safeguards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022314bab7993e64f359dcf6b81b30c0105\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do agree with the Prime Minister. We do need a proper level of safeguarding. That\u2019s why we need to have the discussion when there are risks involved. There are risks involved in everything we do. The whole point is making sure we mitigate those risks. You get in a car, you put on a seatbelt. You get in a boat, you put on a lifejacket. This is about us giving the young people the lifejacket and the seatbelt they need to better their lives. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba9577baeb574086986b8eb9e4b927b0\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffd8ea7c77624dd9864bf7fbfbfeca41\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When the House settles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa429b4a9e2f422c8a6bd665a97c484d\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Has she learnt nothing from the royal commission into abuse in care that found that the lack of appropriate safeguards was a factor leading to the neglect, abuse, and trauma of children in care experience?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa24d1be833439c9c62dc711fc2c4e6\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; that\u2019s why we\u2019re having the discussion around appropriate levels of safeguarding. That\u2019s why Mana Mokupuna, the Ombudsman, and most other agencies have been involved in the process of these military academies. There is oversight, there is proper training, and there are facilities that we\u2019ve actually invested in instead of letting them rot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223528806c61594d6b86ce44bdf8dfa72d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Trade\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u002203466d3b9bfa4ee79bf22b64931dc706\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203466d3b9bfa4ee79bf22b64931dc706\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Trade: What actions has the Government taken to support trade with the Middle East?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022bea85cefeb2b406484b758dd863e55a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bea85cefeb2b406484b758dd863e55a2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Acting Minister for Trade):\u003C/span\u003E It is an exciting time to be a New Zealand exporter. Following the conclusion of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) trade agreement in September, our exceptional trade Minister, the Hon Todd McClay, announced the conclusion of yet another deal last week, this time with the six-nation Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) after almost 20 years of negotiations. About 70 percent of New Zealand\u2019s trade is already covered by arrangements, but until recently, the Gulf region had been a major omission in that coverage. That\u2019s why our Government has moved very quickly to unblock progress and prioritise a successful and quick conclusion to the negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022810a784b91f3404bbe6fd85eba825257\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this trade deal with the GCC significant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227db239af24ff46528ff3bcf7b8dfd89f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: The GCC is the ninth-largest economy in the world and our seventh-largest export destination. To date, this is the highest-quality deal the GCC has ever entered into; and, significantly for New Zealand, its first with a major agricultural exporter. The deal delivers duty-free access in 99 percent of our exports over 10 years, and when combined with our recently concluded UAE deal, 51 percent of our exports to the region will enter tariff-free from day one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223abcbf58df7f40eea2c120a512e24e37\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: How will this agreement with the GCC benefit New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa274df847444fddbdcacb86617993a3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: The GCC is a growing market for New Zealand goods and exports, with two-way trade between New Zealand and the GCC worth over $3 billion in the last year, and dairy alone accounting for $1.8 billion. Products like dairy, industrial products, red meat, and horticultural products will have locked in preferential duty-free access to that market, putting money into the back pockets of New Zealand farmers and manufacturers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a09334b62d4641c9bef1b9fca8500757\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: What is new and innovative about this deal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7f1374713424cab98e6869e23895961\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: The agreement promotes sustainable development policies and outcomes, recognising the importance of using labour and environment laws for legitimate purposes, effectively enforcing these laws and not weakening them to solely encourage trade and investment. For example, it affirms the International Labour Organization\u2019s fundamental principles and rights at work. That is a first for the GCC in a trade agreement, and facilitates cooperation on matters relating to labour, including compliance and enforcing mechanisms for labour rights. It also recognises the importance of women\u2019s economic empowerment, including commitments to fostering women\u2019s entrepreneurship, exchanging best practice related to policies and programmes, and includes a commitment to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. Finally, New Zealand has also secured a Treaty of Waitangi exception to allow us to meet our Treaty obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca9fc2f3547b420bbef481cb4560f580\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: You could be in the protest for the 19th. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ffb238490ef460887a906834f911abe\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Deliver that speech next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4822b65122c4f03b00b2a38405d4f10\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all the excitement over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f51190008e554781b5d0674d7c9725ce\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022657bb07e229e4f8d8cc115396e7864f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022657bb07e229e4f8d8cc115396e7864f9\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his Government\u2019s statements and actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002206778ff968ab439d9f81acd14f73a369\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206778ff968ab439d9f81acd14f73a369\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our action to turn around New Zealand\u2019s unacceptable level of achievement in maths education. We are not prepared to sit by and accept that four out of five year 8s are not at the expected curriculum benchmark. So yesterday, we announced the latest step in our Make it Count maths action plan, a pilot programme with intensive support for 2,000 intermediate-aged students who have fallen behind the required curriculum level. We are giving the teachers the tools they need to set students up for success in a future with more opportunities than their parents had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229967582ebe8a4dbabc20a4119e2ed3a5\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Why have M\u0101ori faced disproportionately high rates of benefit sanctions and cancellations compared to non-M\u0101ori? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d5d6af2e85a49d69dfded59baf2c88a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019d say is that we are determined to make sure that every New Zealander\u2014M\u0101ori or non-M\u0101ori\u2014understands that they live in a country filled with rights and responsibilities. They have simple obligations: get a resume, show up for the job interview, check in with your case manager, and your fellow New Zealander will support you on a pathway to work. But you have an obligation to look for work and to participate in work, and if you don\u2019t, we\u2019ll sanction your benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfee74ecf7d547d4b5301124acff98c9\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government\u2019s current housing strategy failed to adequately address the ongoing disparities faced by the 10,000 M\u0101ori households still on the waiting list? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022539946ce84f34caf87ca145af842b4a9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I\u2019m incredibly proud about is the incredible work that Minister Tama Potaka has been doing to actually reduce emergency housing in this country, because that was a shame from the previous administration, and to see over 1,500 kids moved out of motels and into proper houses is absolutely fantastic. I thought that if you cared about the kids, you\u2019d back the policy\u2014thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221282246ce4a4403db27ff8d63ce08a95\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government failed to effectively address the disproportionately high rate of suspected suicide amongst tangata M\u0101ori, which remains above the national average? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ea78f34a824693bf6f70b24ab17eb4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, this is a cross-party effort to work on suicide across New Zealand. We have a lot more work to do, as was evidenced in the last few weeks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225075101d2a3f4eaca512562fada21124\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Government justify the slow processing of takutai moana applications, which directly affect M\u0101ori land rights and sovereignty? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022227206038e3d4678bad5427fd923b834\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, as we\u2019ve talked before, what we are doing is making sure we go back to the legislation before, that balanced the interests of New Zealanders and also customary title for M\u0101ori. This is making sure that we go back to what was intended by this Parliament, rather than the lowering of a threshold interpreted by the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a9c52a9039a45b4bda12e16a9af559b\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Will he meet with the tens of thousands of tangata whenua and tangata moana who are arriving with the h\u012Bkoi at Parliament: 12 o\u2019clock on 19\u00A0November? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2f14fcd463b4d08a3f75eddd537815d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: My schedule hasn\u2019t been confirmed and I haven\u2019t heard when they\u2019re arriving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d82bbf9c1a4a434b8ff040101bd387a7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002261bc65cc5fa849cf90420c86ca2478c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261bc65cc5fa849cf90420c86ca2478c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he consider that all of the appointments he has made or recommended are suitably qualified and appropriately politically neutral?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa97584e10b2460aba09e6b6f4d0d263\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa97584e10b2460aba09e6b6f4d0d263\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in particular the recent appointment of the Hon Justice Simon Moore KC as chair of the Electoral Commission\u2014very well qualified and appointed with the unanimous support from all parties across the\u00A0House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022080cdbdfe0a242f798b39f909965ddf4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Why was he satisfied that Dr Stephen Rainbow had the legal knowledge required by section 12(c) of the Human Rights Act to be qualified for the appointment as Chief Human Rights Commissioner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7b187846af44a5c91e8bcf5a2653163\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Because he has wide-ranging experience in terms of expressing strong views and making a good case for the importance of civil rights and human rights in New Zealand. The expectation has never been that you had to be an academic in human rights law. The legislation indicates that you have to have \u201Can understanding\u201D of human rights law, and I think that\u2019s appropriate. We\u2019ve got every confidence that he will do an excellent job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a98e6b84186b4bcbb0d87732ca831d88\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Is it politically neutral for Dr Rainbow to have messaged the ACT chief of staff on 12 December 2023: \u201CThe pushback you guys are facing is not unexpected, but it is still incredible. Am keen to help if you\u2019re needing any assistance. A gay human rights commissioner, for example?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210185cda3f394ed9864e5354b3d2f9c4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The gentleman that the member has named is perfectly entitled to communicate with people on a range of issues. What I\u2019m interested in is his ability to clearly stand up for and articulate the importance of human rights in New Zealand and to do that in a way that is well communicated. I\u2019ve got every confidence he can do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022244adc5c4a3a4d06b0646b60cbdad461\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he appoint Dr Stephen Rainbow as Chief Human Rights Commissioner given he is not suitably qualified; is not politically neutral; and was, in fact, assessed by an appointment panel of a retired Supreme Court judge, a former Attorney-General, a King\u2019s Counsel, and an Iwi Chairs Forum representative as not meeting appointment criteria to be a viable appointment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e57afd0f42404b57b876f46570558e72\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: To the first part of the question: it is not I who appointed anybody\u2014Cabinet made the decision and the Government made the appointment. The Government made the appointment because he is a very well-qualified person who would do a great job, and it\u2019s very important in this country that we have a strong advocate for universal human rights, and he\u2019ll do a good job in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e53c29c2b4484ef1b5c56d8c31d5033c\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider that the quality of questions he\u2019s received in the last few minutes are evidence that maybe a law qualification is not everything?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022631825113c6d4575994532dfe818bda9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was not particularly helpful for the order of the House at all. The Hon Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fe7d5e6622f4e3eb2bab3064dc36327\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223603d738515b4a71802952a5937bdb37\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for the House to settle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af1318011bcf476cad5c9fea5f4a2407\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it simply the case that the appointment of Dr Rainbow as the Chief Human Rights Commissioner is because he is a party stooge who will simply do the Government\u2019s bidding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a55610dfd2414fcca5a6b13875f5d037\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That question cannot possibly stand. We just had a long presentation from the Leader of the Opposition defending someone who he believes was imprecated last week. You cannot let that question stand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c1282047f0c487bbc6f0cf8f245590e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I\u2019m not going to. Thank you, that concludes oral questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aca6c6445c646d2bd125f54bc1302d4\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4430e0d1ace4fa89f8132047558ae52\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve ruled on the point of order. That concludes oral questions. We\u2019ll take 30 seconds to exit the House before we move on to the next business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002294ac4ebb2a6e440f8fb545112db76a39\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220194b6af8b4a4ed2acc56918be38dd28\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u2014Speaker\u2019s Ruling\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002256c39727b8194e348ffad4f39745b0b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256c39727b8194e348ffad4f39745b0b5\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I attempted to make this point of order before the conclusion of question time, but there was some confusion so I hope you\u2019ll allow me to do it now. Last sitting week before the recess, you undertook a commitment to the House to report back on a personal statement that was made and whether that met the requirements outlined in McGee, and I was hoping you might be able to tell the House when we can expect that report back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b202dbef4be641adad148c6795c68021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b202dbef4be641adad148c6795c68021\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, it will be this week. It\u2019s something that needs to be properly considered and there are people whose advice I\u2019m wanting to take who have not been available to this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a35142a6005d40888254692444fa1f2b\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228dab5cc8dd594aef8dbf3365d946be24\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022167d881b40a24169a141528af7d6142b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022167d881b40a24169a141528af7d6142b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into the morning of Wednesday, 6 November for the second readings of the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill, and the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill; further consideration in committee of the Contracts of Insurance Bill; and the interrupted debate on the second reading of the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c27e5727c3b2436687a6617ff6071b76\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c473e4301a9a4e74ae0bf8f6f02d1cdb\u0022\u003EOversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022968873524c044751b38aa07e43ac3370\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3dc121ae9f64839858829eb320a0f40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3dc121ae9f64839858829eb320a0f40\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a391c01b54b4051921e9243e02c64ab\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a668dc1e2f54d6183073054e46e4270\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Social Services and Community Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 6 March 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the bill is to strengthen the independent monitoring of the Oranga Tamariki system, or children\u2019s system, and make it crystal clear to children and young people who their advocate is. The Oranga Tamariki system is defined as the system that is responsible for providing services and support to children, young people, and their families or wh\u0101nau under or in connection with the Oranga Tamariki Act or the Children\u2019s and Young People\u2019s Well-being Act 1989. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe oversight of the children\u2019s system was changed significantly in 2022 and two Acts were introduced: the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Act 2022 established the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor as the independent monitoring agency of the children\u2019s system and appointed the Ombudsman to investigate issues in the system, as well as handle complaints about the system. At the same time, the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Act 2022 established the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission, equipping it with the functions, duties, and powers to protect and advocate for the interests and wellbeing of all children and young people who have interacted with the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis bill intends to amend the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Act and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Act\u2014specifically to transition the monitor from a departmental agency to an independent Crown entity with a small, multi-member board; and the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission from an independent Crown entity led by a multi-member board to an independent Crown entity led by a single Children\u2019s Commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EFeedback on the 2022 Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill raised concerns about the monitor\u2019s independence, suggesting that a departmental agency might not be as fully independent of political considerations. This bill responds to those concerns that were raised by many, many submitters, and will change the institutional arrangements of the monitor to an independent Crown entity to further strengthen its independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis bill requires experience and knowledge from the monitor\u2019s board members to ensure\u00A0that they possess the necessary skills and knowledge, such as quality assurance, data\u00A0governance, and a strong understanding of the care system to assume these important roles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EFeedback on the 2022 Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill also emphasised the idea of having a single individual acting in the role of advocate\u2014in other words, having a clear Children\u2019s Commissioner. This bill addresses this concern, again, that was raised by multiple, multiple submitters\u2014very,\u00A0very strong community views. This bill addresses the concern by disestablishing the current five-member board model of the commission and returning to a single Children\u2019s Commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe value in having two distinct roles and voices in the oversight system cannot be overstated. The Independent Children\u2019s Monitor plays the role of neutral observer and reporter, and the Children\u2019s Commissioner has a separate role in amplifying the concerns and advocating strongly on behalf of children, young people, and their wh\u0101nau. Keeping the monitor separate from the advocate role of the Children\u2019s Commissioner will help ensure that their work continues to be impartial, which, of course, is vital to its role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EHowever, I acknowledge that the monitor, the Children\u2019s Commissioner, and the Ombudsman are only part of the oversight of the children\u2019s system and need to work collectively to give effect to their separate but complimentary functions. For the monitor to perform its role well and influence change, it needs to have the trust of communities and to be a trusted adviser to Government, independent of any specific policy positions or considerations. Equally, to be an effective advocate, the Children\u2019s Commissioner often needs to take and promote a strong position, sometimes publicly. A Children\u2019s Commissioner must be able to do this freely and without fear of impacting the work of the monitor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe monitor and the commission, along with the Ombudsman, are also working closely together to ensure the monitoring, advocacy, and complaints roles are properly joined up to best support our most vulnerable children and young people. These agencies are taking a \u201Cno wrong door\u201D approach, which means regardless of which agency is approached, either for complaint or for feedback, they will direct people to the right place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe bill also covers consequential and transitional arrangements for the monitor and the commission to ensure a smooth transition of functions. I\u2019m sure every member of the House will recognise how important the work is, both of the monitor and of the commissioner. To minimise any disruption to both entities\u2019 work, the bill provides that the chief executive of the monitor will continue as chief executive of the new independent Crown entity from one year from commencement date. Similarly, the current Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner will also become the Children\u2019s Commissioner for one year from the commencement date of the bill. Continuing the current Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner\u2019s role will help to build on the visibility of the position and strengthen their existing relationships with children and young people, which, of course, is critical to the success of their role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe timing of our changes addresses and complements some of the findings that were provided in the final report of the abuse in care that was the royal commission of inquiry. A key finding of the report is that the State failed to ensure that there was robust, independent oversight and monitoring of all care settings that interacted effectively for people at risk and that robust and independent oversight and monitoring is a critical way of ensuring that care providers fulfil their duties to people in care, including detecting when they are not complying with applicable laws, regulations, policies, or providing safe and quality care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis view was shared by many, including the Human Rights Commission, which in its final report noted, and I quote: \u201CIndependence is crucial [to] the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor to achieve its objectives of providing objective and impartial monitoring of the Oranga Tamariki system. \u2026 A monitor that is not completely independent of Government will struggle to gain the public trust and confidence \u2026 that is necessary to address [the failures of abuse in care].\u201D Many people will not be surprised by these two simple but very important changes to the oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system. There was very clear feedback when the 2022 legislation was introduced and open for submissions, so we are resolving two of the issues that were very strongly submitted on at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EOverall, this bill strengthens the independent monitoring of the Oranga Tamariki, or children\u2019s, system and makes it crystal clear to children and young people who their advocate is. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1fe3bc89d404c09b4e3ae987450a6ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1fe3bc89d404c09b4e3ae987450a6ed\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call on the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill. Can I start by saying that we support this bill going to select committee, but that is qualified support. I want to address the two main proposals in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWhen Labour was in Government, we started work on strengthening oversight of the children\u2019s system. The Beatie report highlighted how inadequate our system of oversight was, and Labour acted quickly to make it stronger. We established the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, and we enabled the Ombudsman to provide accessible and timely complaint and investigation processes for children and young people. We boosted the diversity and advocacy powers through the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission. At the time, we also reduced the review period to three years instead of five to enable the review to take into account recommendations from the royal commission into abuse in State care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI would like to take this opportunity to commend the work of the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor and the five children\u2019s commissioners in their tireless advocacy for children and young people, and the work of the Ombudsman. But I find it really difficult to be speaking on these proposed changes to legislation to improve the oversight of the children\u2019s system when we have just had question time and serious questions being asked about safeguarding in the children\u2019s system, to ensure when the ability to use force on children in custody is being discussed and debated and decided by Cabinet\u2014I find it difficult to believe what the Government is saying, in terms of their desire to ensure that we have the best oversight and protection for our most vulnerable children and that we respect their advocate and the voices, when the Minister for Children did not even bother to consult the Children\u2019s Commissioner on the proposed changes in the youth justice policy space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWe support any changes that will build the trust that has been spoken about in terms of the independence of the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, but in terms of the changes to the Children\u2019s Commission, we do not support the reduction down to one single commissioner. When we established the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission, we put in place a model with five commissioners, led by the Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner, and we did this to get wider and more diverse representation on the commission, to enable more robust advocacy for children and young people. Because of that, we believe that we need diverse representation for children and young people, and we don\u2019t support those proposed changes in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EStakeholders have now had time to see in action the changes that Labour made, and we believe it is important to hear from stakeholders on this and their views on the current system and what this bill proposes. We look forward to the select committee process, where submitters will be able to give us their views on the increase of children\u2019s commissioners to provide that diversity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EOver the past year, this Government has made significant cuts to Oranga Tamariki front-line services, they\u2019ve introduced boot camps, and they are repealing section 7AA, and we have seen the benefits of having a robust system of oversight for our children, holding the Government to account on behalf of children and young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo reiterate, we support this legislation going to select committee; we support any enhancements to the independence of the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor. We do not support the reduction of commissioners for Mana Mokopuna. We look forward to the select committee process, and we challenge the Government, in all that it is doing across the children\u2019s system, to ensure that we have the best safeguards and monitoring in place\u2014that\u00A0is respected, that is sought out, that is consulted on at every opportunity\u2014so that we can ensure we are doing everything that we can possibly do to ensure we do not have a repeat of the abuse in care we had in the past. Kia ora, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u002250dcd01855614ac2bcbde367ae097bf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250dcd01855614ac2bcbde367ae097bf9\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise today on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa in support of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill. As my colleagues and the Minister have previously outlined, this omnibus bill amends two key Acts: the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Act 2022 and the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Act 2022. Specifically, it makes changes to the legislative status of the two core agencies in the children\u2019s oversight and monitoring system. It changes te Aroturuki Tamariki from a departmental agency within the Education Review Office to an independent Crown entity (ICE). Secondly, it reverts Mana Mokopuna - Children and Young People\u2019s Commission to a single commissioner model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EIn supporting this bill, I want to acknowledge its origins. Changes to the children\u2019s oversight and monitoring system were introduced in 2022. The Greens previously opposed changes that separated the children\u2019s advocacy and monitoring functions for two main reasons, as it risked weakening both roles and compromised the independence of the children\u2019s oversight system, and having the monitor as a departmental agency within the Education Review Office risked the autonomy of the monitor itself. The Greens are pleased to see the changes in this bill addressing these concerns now. The children\u2019s monitor will have greater independence by being established as a fully stand-alone ICE.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the incredible mahi of the monitor and those working within it. These kaimahi uplift the stories, experience, and reality of tamariki across the motu. They do this daily while respecting the mana and dignity of tamariki and the experiences they seek to uplift. I want to acknowledge the integral mahi of the monitor since its inception in 2022. There\u2019ve been many reports published by the monitor from tamariki\u2019s access to primary healthcare to tamariki\u2019s experience of returning home after State care, but the report that sticks with me the most is Towards a stronger safety net to prevent abuse of children, which centres on the tragic case of Malachi Subecz\u2019s death and the State\u2019s repeated failings. It concluded that tamariki are no safer in New Zealand than they were at the time of Malachi\u2019s death. These incident reports are a vital part of our oversight system and make sure we care for our tamariki by holding a mirror to the decision makers within agencies and the Government so that we can make evidence-based decisions that reflect the needs of the community and centre the children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EAs I have said previously, the Greens support the intent of giving the monitor further independence. However, increased independence cannot substitute for adequate funding. The Greens continue to call for sustained funding increases to ensure that the monitor can effectively continue to keep decision makers accountable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge this Government for listening to those on the front lines of our care system in New Zealand within this bill. Last week, I had the privilege of meeting again with VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai and recognising the incredible mahi they do nationwide to support care-experienced tamariki, and I want to share the words of Mary-Lynn Huxford, National Care Experienced Youth Participation Adviser, who said, \u201CReverting to an appointed Children\u2019s Commissioner will simplify things for tamariki, with an identifiable and reliable person there for them to turn to. I\u2019m so pleased to finally see a government decision about the care sector being informed by those who are care-experienced.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThis bill reflects the commitment to centring the voices of those with lived care experience in our care response, which the Greens wholeheartedly support. However, this cannot and must not stop here. The Government and Crown have profoundly failed survivors of abuse in care, and, next week, we have this apology, and we need to make sure that we are advocating for all 138 recommendations to be implemented. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002209a2082d8e844c0bb9f910827360c4ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209a2082d8e844c0bb9f910827360c4ca\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s an absolute privilege to rise on behalf of ACT in support of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill. When I first came to Parliament, I came out of sheer frustration around, in my community, seeing and hearing issues that I knew about growing up, dealing with, in care myself. My mission, from day one coming into Parliament, is to make a real, true difference when it comes to young people in care and making sure that whilst they\u2019re in care, they\u2019re safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI am grateful to the work of the Hon Louise Upston in this space, because, while I was in Opposition, I was firmly opposed to the changes that were made in 2022, which muddied the waters of how a young person or a person who wanted to find a way to have a voice when things were going wrong didn\u2019t know who to turn to or where to go. There cannot be gaps in our system when it comes to responding to reports of kids being in danger or kids being hurt or harmed in care, and we need to make it simple. We need to make it a \u201Cno wrong door\u201D policy so that no matter where a young person or a family member goes, they can be directed to the exact right person who can monitor for them and the exact right person who can advocate for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI truly understand the importance of a transparent system when it comes to children in care, making sure that they are being provided with absolutely everything that they need and everything that they should have whilst in the care of Oranga Tamariki. Children in State care deserve a truly accountable system, and that means having a truly independent and accountable advocate in their corner. We need to gain back the trust. Things that are coming up now, where we\u2019re hearing stories of how children screamed and cried for help, where they approached multiple agencies, multiple people to say they were being hurt and harmed, and nothing was done. This is unacceptable and it cannot continue, and we will do everything in our power in this Government to make sure that we put measures in place through bills like this one where young people\u2019s voices can be heard easier, they will be listened to, and their concerns will be actioned appropriately. I have every faith that this will bring back some of that trust that has been lost in a system that is meant to protect our young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThere are many changes going on, within not just Oranga Tamariki but multiple agencies across Government who have involvement with children in care. We must make sure that there are appropriate people who have that independence and that ability to speak up without fear of doing so. I truly am grateful for this bill\u2014it\u2019s been a long time coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EListening to the submissions when the changes were made in 2022 was heartbreaking. It was like listening to people, once again, screaming out to be heard and once again being ignored. I hope that this legislation being put through Parliament right now shows that we are listening, that we have taken on board the submissions from the changes in 2022 and the concerns from not only young people but organisations within the community from multiple different areas, including hap\u016B and iwi, that were concerned about oversight for their young children. It\u2019s just to reinforce: we listened, we heard, and we\u2019re keeping our promise as a Government to make those changes that not only ACT campaigned on but, alongside the Hon Minister Upston, we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220f6b6440fa0848c19c89eb0536ee2038\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f6b6440fa0848c19c89eb0536ee2038\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has come to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00224065d3bef1b54e02956ddcc26eebfe91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224065d3bef1b54e02956ddcc26eebfe91\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill. I\u2019d like to firstly just thank the member prior to me\u2014the Hon Karen Chhour\u2014for her heartfelt contribution and the tireless and dedicated work that she is giving to this space and the care of our children and young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EAs already mentioned, this is an omnibus bill with a single, broad policy to enhance the oversight and the monitoring of the Oranga Tamariki system. So many of the technical things have already been mentioned, but one of the things I will speak about is that whilst the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission is now in a board model and is now being reduced to a sole position\u2014a sole commissioner\u2014it will also have a deputy in order to be there in the event of any absences and to ensure that there is a steady flow of work and process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EThe other change is the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, which is now an independent Crown entity. Now, one of the great things about this is that it will be governed by a board of three members, and they will all have expertise in the area of Oranga Tamariki processes, systems, and duty governance. It is also just ensuring that like an audit, everything is done properly and efficiently, and the most important thing is that the intent of the bill is covered, and that is the care of our children and our young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EIn summary, the intent of the bill is to improve the outcomes for our children and young people. It will ensure independence and also ensure that the processes are not only efficient and effective but that people are accountable. There will be independence, and with this separation between advocacy and monitoring, it will be the beginning of the rebuilding of trust in organisations when it comes to the care and safety of our children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EI will keep it brief: New Zealand First supports the bill, and I commend it to the House. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u00225cb3c9223e85416f8f0582c23e33d48f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cb3c9223e85416f8f0582c23e33d48f\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai, \u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. It\u2019s probably less of a pleasure and more of a duty to stand and bring a particular angle to this discussion and to this bill, to say that Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori will support it to select committee with the conditions which I\u2019m going to express in my k\u014Drero today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EHaving been a social worker and then a care and protection social worker in the time in which the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act came to be, I\u2019ve got some insight both clinically, culturally, and technically in terms of how these bills and pieces of legislation and law come into action and don\u2019t always hit the mark, unfortunately, when they\u2019re on the ground. That\u2019s a bit of the backdrop for my discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWeighing heavily on our collective M\u0101ori consciousness is the wellbeing of our mokopuna M\u0101ori, so it concerns me that 80 percent of all children abused in State care institutions are tamariki M\u0101ori. The time for action must be now, yet the actions we see from the coalition Government tell a different story. This bill intends to improve oversight and monitoring of Oranga Tamariki, and we\u2019ve heard all the technical bits, how that\u2019s described, making structural changes to the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor. If the Government is truly\u00A0committed to structural changes and it is actually sincere about the care and protection of mokopuna M\u0101ori, this seems to me tinkering at the edges yet again, this bill, this idea, this insight behind it all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s part of why I\u2019m talking like this: so there\u2019s the tinkering on the edges, but then there\u2019s the section 7AA deal\u2014which ironically, this is about monitoring and taking care\u00A0of and keeping an eye on all New Zealand mokopuna, children, right? Yet to take away, to dismantle a cultural paradigm, a clinical paradigm under section 7AA, which is now dismissed\u2014it\u2019s off the books. We will treat you just like any other child, any other New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EYou see, the difficulty that we have as a party with that is that, again, it does not at all really deal with structural change in any real, significant way. We want this to go to select committee and we want to listen to the stories that are bound to come through, but, again, it just feels like another piece of tinkering on the edges and over here the dismantling of section 7AA\u2014tinkering on the edges and reintroducing boot camps; tinkering on the edges and then coming back to the potential abuse in custody with a military-style model. Why do I know this? Because my memory working in the field tells me this. Despite the reassurances or the comments from the Minister, I\u2019m not confident at all, and many of us are not. And on the 19th, I think we\u2019ll get to see that a little bit more closely outside on the grounds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESeeking to improve oversight and monitoring of Oranga Tamariki through the re-establishment of an independent children\u2019s monitoring board is a minor structural improvement. The independent authority would see the return of tamariki and mokopuna M\u0101ori. Coming to what we would replace it with, or we would ask the House to consider, is our mokopuna M\u0101ori authority. This independent authority would see the return of tamariki and mokopuna M\u0101ori from State care back into the rightful care of te iwi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EI heard the Minister refer to a section 396. Again, back in 1989, in the 1990s, I used to approve 396s. I think over the whole time I was in the department, I maybe did three or four. The idea is good, but the implementation and the practice is hopeless, and I\u2019m interested to see whether that\u2019s going to be any different this time. I fear it won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThe mokopuna authority would both assert and protect the rights of our people promised in He Whakaputanga and Te Tiriti o Waitangi. It will be the primary national agency that prioritises whakapapa, because wh\u0101nau do know what\u2019s best for their own. Wh\u0101nau Ora is a perfect expression of that. Wh\u0101nau Ora\u2019s by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u2014and I see I\u2019ve run out of time. What a shame. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00223d8669d342654e258268db8791f8bcb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d8669d342654e258268db8791f8bcb3\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of the Government side of the House to speak in support of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill at its first reading. This does two things, essentially: it ensures the independence of the children\u2019s monitor; and, secondly, it creates a stand-alone Children\u2019s Commissioner. The overall policy objective is to improve outcomes for children and young people in New Zealand through structural changes which will enhance the visibility of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, which will become part of this process, and make one single person who will be a visible and identifiable face for advocacy in New Zealand, which is one really key point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe second thing that this will do, that is a very important thing\u2014it will strengthen the independence of the children\u2019s monitor. This will take this out of where it\u2019s currently, which is part of the Education Review Office, and will make the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor an independent Crown entity\u2014so separate from Government. The importance of that is to enhance confidence in people that wish to raise issues of concern that this is independent from any Government agency or Government; also to ensure that this commissioner is strictly focused simply on their role, which is to ensure the wellbeing of New Zealand children is being adequately addressed by other Government agencies. In particular, it\u2019s the independent monitoring of the Oranga Tamariki system, which we have heard over the last few years\u2014just the number of challenges that that has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis is a very good piece of legislation that will enhance the system of monitoring that we have of the Oranga Tamariki system, and will enhance confidence that New Zealanders have in this. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00221bd060e0d14e43e385152fd351151613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bd060e0d14e43e385152fd351151613\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill. Labour supports this bill to select committee. In general, we support the change of making the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor become an independent entity, and we recognise the benefits. This bill changes that monitor to be outside of Government, and it changes the constitutional arrangements to enable that to sit aside and be independent from Government. Having a clear Children\u2019s Commissioner is a good thing. Where we have reservations is around the disestablishment of the board of five members. We believe that having that board provides additional diversity and a range of views if we are truly going to have children\u2019s interests and their wellbeing at heart. We look forward to hearing submissions from the public on that particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs noted in the initial speech, the royal commission has stated that there wasn\u2019t robust oversight of our children and young people in New Zealand, and we need to learn from those mistakes in the past. We look forward to these changes bringing an increased level of transparency. As the Minister for Children pointed out in her speech, it is really at the heart of the matter of rebuilding trust within our community\u2014about rebuilding that trust in order for communities to be able to report, for children to be protected, and for there to be a more positive relationship going forward. I completely agree with rebuilding trust being at the heart and the necessity of the issues that underpin child welfare and child wellbeing. My problem is that many of the actions this Government has taken, particularly in the space of protecting the wellbeing of children, have gone to do the antithesis of that, which is to cause increased mistrust within the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ECutting critical front-line jobs at Oranga Tamariki means that there are front-line workers who are no longer there doing that good work. Contracts for Oranga Tamariki that enabled children to be kept within their wh\u0101nau, to be kept out of State care\u2014some of those key contracts right across the country have been cut. Those things, I believe, undermine trust in our system and undermine the ability for good reporting to take place. We\u2019ve also seen the repeal of section 7AA. Strangely enough, when you look through the legislative statement here, it states that this bill we\u2019re talking about is consistent with the Government\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi obligations and that the bill retains provisions intended to recognise and respect the Crown\u2019s responsibility to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi. It\u2019s great that that\u2019s still in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe other point I would make, in relation to the rebuilding of trust and how important that is for this piece of legislation, is the fact that a lot of the young people we are talking about\u2014whether they be in State care or within their own families\u2014have been victims of family or sexual violence. I have a deep concern that some of the cost cutting this Government has done, whether it be Police pulling back from family violence or whether it be no additional funding for Te Aorerekura to build a network of support within our communities for family violence, again undermines the trust and the ability for reporting to take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThen, finally, we have heard today that the military-style academies\u2014boot camps\u2014will potentially now be able to have force used in them, and it is disheartening that the Prime Minister did not know in Cabinet that that had happened when questioned about that in the media. That does not go to building trust. While it is great that we have a bill that\u2019s having an independent Children\u2019s Commissioner, there are a range of actions that have been taken by this Government that undermine the trust that we need to build in New Zealand if we are really serious about preventing harm to our children, violence not only within State care but also within our communities\u2014and we have a big job ahead of us to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI look forward to the submissions, and I encourage submitters, anyone at home who\u2019s tuning in, to put their views in and make them heard loud and clear at select committee. It\u2019s a very important part of our democratic process\u2014that your voices are heard as part of the consideration of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4c4ed6e08824deeaaa4ac2d98ecea8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4c4ed6e08824deeaaa4ac2d98ecea8a\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I stand in support of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill. The bill covers two broad areas of change: one is to strengthen independent monitoring of the Oranga Tamariki system, and the second is to strengthen advocacy for children and young people\u2019s issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe bill seeks to clarify the roles and responsibilities of the Government agencies that are charged with overseeing New Zealand\u2019s child protection system, and must include greater advocacy and independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe bill will change the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor from being a departmental agency under the Education Review Office to an independent Crown entity. This is designed to ensure independent monitoring, particularly as it is separated entirely from Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe bill returns the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission to a single commissioner, taking it away from a five-member board structure. This, in turn, will give children and young people a single and visible advocate. It ensures that those transitioning out of care know who their advocate is, should there be any issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EUltimately, the bill is aimed at improving outcomes for children and all young people in New Zealand. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002228244aa8875e453fbf505eaee95372b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228244aa8875e453fbf505eaee95372b5\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s interesting to listen to the debate this afternoon and to hear that there seems to be support across the House\u2014although cautious support from us here in Labour. As I\u2019ve been listening\u2014you know, there\u2019s the old phrase that everyone knows about how it takes a village to raise a child, but I really think sometimes you need to flip that around and consider that it takes a child to remind us of our responsibility to the village.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI think, looking at this legislation\u2014and I was actually a member of the Social Services and Community Committee last term; I was deputy chair when we went through this process. The challenge for me then and the challenge for me now is, again, what is my responsibility to my village and for the sake of our tamariki, our rangatahi? I know that it was challenging when we went through the process, and many of my colleagues from previous years and my friends in my own community do question it, particularly around the five-person board, but I came to a place where I did support it wholeheartedly. The reason I did was because it was around diversity and it was around the whole concept of how you often have to be able to see yourself to be able to actually reach out and to seek the help you need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWe had people like the Hon Karen Chhour, we had people like the previous speaker Paulo Garcia, and other members, speaking about how it\u2019s clumsy and it\u2019s difficult having a five-person board as opposed to one commissioner, but my challenge back to that is: you need to be able to see yourself to actually be in the space or have the ability to actually connect and actually seek out the necessary help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI look back to when the first iteration of the Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner was established in 1989. There were eight chief commissioners up until we brought this new piece of legislation in, in 2022. Of the eight, two were female\u2014and of the two, both were M\u0101ori. Of course, it\u2019s funny that the two w\u0101hine were also M\u0101ori. Of those eight commissioners\u2014that\u2019s what it was. I just think that\u2019s where we need to look very carefully about who is stepping up and representing us in this space. My challenge as we cautiously take this to the select committee is for us to listen carefully to the advocates, listen carefully to stakeholders, around how it has actually worked in the last two years in terms of having the five-member board\u2014what was good about it, maybe what was challenging about it; but the fact that that we need to be able to see ourselves in in that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe second part I want to briefly talk about is in terms of, I guess, my role\u2014in my whole life, pretty much, particularly in my adult life\u2014working with young people and their families, and, coming back to that village scenario, it\u2019s around how do we in this House always look deeply into legislation, that, actually, the child is at the centre of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s where I have concerns, but I\u2019m willing to commend the bill today to go to select committee, to look and to listen and to understand where we actually can best do what we\u00A0can for the sake of our rangatahi, for the sake of our tamariki. The Minister for Social Development and Employment, who is putting the bill through this afternoon, and I sat in the select committee last term and we went through this. As I said at the start, it was\u00A0challenging, but I thought we needed to look at a different way of doing it. The Labour Party are willing to move forward and to support this bill and to really critique it, to pull it apart but to listen carefully to our stakeholders and those engaged, particularly at the\u00A0coalface of working with our rangatahi and our tamariki. I commend this bill to the\u00A0House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u00225613cbc7a4214b21a42105340ae9832f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225613cbc7a4214b21a42105340ae9832f\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I too rise in support of this bill that the Hon Louise Upston has brought to the House, the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill. We\u2019re in the first reading, and I tautoko what the speaker before me, Glen Bennett, said in terms of acknowledging that something different was tried, but I\u2019m glad that this bill seeks to go back to having that one voice\u2014that one voice that\u2019s going to be there to advocate for our tamariki, for our children. That\u2019s important because it\u2019s such a delicate balance of advocacy that\u2019s taking place in the realm of Oranga Tamariki, of our tamariki, of our rangatahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EEssentially, there\u2019s two areas of change that this bill seeks to establish: strengthening the independent monitoring of Oranga Tamariki, the system there; and strengthening, as we said, the advocacy for our young people\u2019s issues generally. This is going to be done by making the monitoring independent, and that\u2019s something that our Minister has stressed. In August this year, she said that we want to give our children a greater voice. In May this year, she said there\u2019s going to be stronger oversight for our most vulnerable children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EI\u2019m glad that this bill has got the support of the whole House. It will go to the select committee and go through those avenues that it needs to go to. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a12d8a048f594ea19d23a9157f133e6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a12d8a048f594ea19d23a9157f133e6b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill be considered by the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a4314459924414cb1bb37d125312b43\u0022\u003EInstruction to Social Services and Community Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecca4fb6c6cc413ea7cbfb91f6b0b8b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecca4fb6c6cc413ea7cbfb91f6b0b8b9\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Legislation Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 6\u00A0March 2025. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d117d659dd94f70998b99036c414544\u0022\u003EPolicing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b118e657e7b94a68aa4a3d2b7d1d6b01\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002246d4654e587e4655b9b47be22b9912a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246d4654e587e4655b9b47be22b9912a3\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Policing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e47ba8826424555b2c4f3d3f99072b2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d450fb8886ac4d6da78510444ce34480\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Policing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe police-vetting service contributes to public safety and national security by providing over 650,000 police vets each year to support approved agencies to make informed decisions about individuals, primarily appointing individuals to roles in contact with children and vulnerable adults. This bill provides a statutory framework for the police-vetting service and will provide clear and consistent policy for police and users of the service. It will clarify the information considered and the tests police apply before releasing information. This will assist vetting users to understand what to expect when engaging with the police-vetting service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI note that the bill implements a key recommendation contained in a 2016 joint review undertaken by the Office of the Privacy Commissioner and the Independent Police Conduct Authority to provide greater clarity around vetting. The bill sets out that the purpose of police vetting is to assist agencies with their decision making about roles that involve the care and safety of children, young people, and vulnerable adults; roles that involve the education of children or young people; roles that involve law enforcement or national security and immigration- or citizenship-related decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe bill provides that a vetting request can only be made by an agency that is either required under law to obtain a police vet, or that police consider it appropriate to make a vetting request. A vetting request may only be made if it is related to the purpose of police vetting, and police do not require any person to be police vetted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EAround 14,000 agencies are approved by police to request police vets to assist with their decision making about individuals and circumstances that meet the purpose of police vetting. A police vet is only provided with the consent of the vetting subject and can only be provided to an approved agency. It is a point-in-time assessment of police-held information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe bill provides that the criminal-conviction history must be released, subject to the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act 2004. The bill also sets out the categories of non-conviction information police consider for release. These include active or past charges; warrants; infringement offences; demerit points; overseas convictions, if held; family violence incidents; investigations that did not result in charges; and interactions that the vetting subject has had with police. It is important to note that just because non-conviction information may be considered for release, it does not mean that it will be released. Non-conviction information may only be released if it is relevant to the purpose for which the police vet is sought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EPolice are also required to take reasonable steps to ensure the information is accurate and\u00A0not misleading. The bill also recognises that four categories of information are particularly sensitive and should be subject to additional disclosure tests before being released. This occurs where the information is subject to a suppression order, is about a person when they were under 18, where it relates to mental health or substance abuse information, or if it relates to involvement in family violence as a witness or a victim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ETen percent of police vets include only a criminal-conviction history, and less than 5\u00A0percent include a summary of relevant non-conviction information. The bill requires police vets for children\u2019s workers who are regulated under the Children\u2019s Act to be updated when they are charged or convicted of a specified serious offence. This reflects current practice. The bill also enables police, in agreed circumstances and with the consent of the vetting subject, to arrange with an agency to provide updates on a police vet\u2014for example, if a person was charged or convicted of serious offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for the service to continue in substantially the same manner as at present. However, it also enables police to deliver future service improvements, which would require further investment in systems that could enhance public safety and increase the efficiency of the service. This includes enabling police to specify a class of individuals who could be authorised to request a police vet on themselves, noting that police vets will always be provided directly to approved agencies. This could enable the police vet to be provided to more than one approved agency at once, so long as they all need it for the same purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides an indemnity for police from liability for any actions taken in good faith responding to a police vet. This is similar to the approach taken in the Privacy Act and the Official Information Act 1982. Given the public-safety interest in providing police vets, I consider it appropriate to provide this indemnity, which will encourage police to err on the side of releasing information. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221e8cce04b3434560b29e98cc4c148462\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e8cce04b3434560b29e98cc4c148462\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2e05f20a190438c8c4bc6c5fc248037\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2e05f20a190438c8c4bc6c5fc248037\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Labour supports this piece of legislation. It\u2019s been a while in the making, but the improvements this makes seeks to protect vulnerable people from harm and it\u2019s an important system that\u00A0we believe provides reassurance in places where it\u2019s needed. Police initiated the review via the Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA) back in 2016, and the review recommended that a statutory framework needed to be developed in order to address a lack of legislative policy direction and uncertainties and legal risks to all parties when police vets are conducted, and so this is a response to that inquiry, to that request from the IPCA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Policing Act from 2008 and seeks to address the recommendations of the IPCA review. The proposed statutory framework will allow police-vetting services to operate as it does currently. However, the statutory framework seeks to provide additional clarity around the purpose and the scope of vetting, which is important for people\u2019s privacy and rights. It will address who can access the police-vetting service, what information can and cannot be released to vet\u2014as stipulated by the Minister\u2019s speech. This framework will also enable the implementation of significant changes and improvements through provisions coming into force by regulation over the next two to three years. These additional developments are proposed by the Police in the space particularly for information technology, and that will no doubt be dependent on funding to enable police to have that funding for that IT platform to be in place for that to happen. We know that the storing of data, particularly in consideration to privacy, is critical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EEstablishing this statutory framework that enables a police-vetting service to occur is an important fact as it sets out the purposes of what are we doing this for when people are being vetted. It sets out who can request a vet, requiring a request for a police vet made within the consent, and setting out the information that may or may not be disclosed, enabling an individual who is a member of a specified class of individual to make a vetting request to themselves and specifying the agencies they wish the police to vet is able to be disclosed. An example might be an individual may request that police vet about themselves be provided by police to a number of prospective employers instead of having each of the prospective employers separately request a police vet in respect of the individual, so it would save time in that space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EHaving the statutory framework will provide a clearer legal and policy direction for police having vetting services, greater clarity on vetting service purposes, and also it will give greater consistency so we can have that framework in place. We want to make sure that, particularly if people are in charge of children or people who are vulnerable, the right checks and balances have been in place, and also that there is a framework in place so that people have trust and confidence that it\u2019s working well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill will require anyone subject to a police vet to consent to the request being made\u2014that\u2019s an important point. In line with the existing scheme, information provided in a police vet could cover anything from demerits to infringements to active charges, warrants for arrest, any other interactions between an individual and police, family violence incidents, police investigations, overseas convictions, and any other information that\u2019s held by the police. The Police website says that vets can currently provide information, subject to name suppression, where that information is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important to note that this is work that enables a great service that gives people security about children and other people being in charge of others and having that check in place. Police do an outstanding job at carrying out these checks and making sure that we have confidence in our system. This legislation, which has been in train for a number of years, enables that policy framework and certainty to be put in place. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u00224127ed965ee841259f7f30cef60cd4f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224127ed965ee841259f7f30cef60cd4f1\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to speak about the Policing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill for its first reading in the House today. I\u2019m happy to say that we support this bill, and our contribution won\u2019t be too long given most of the points have already been outlined by the Minister and by my colleague Ginny Andersen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EBasically, we are in support of this bill because it means that we are able to do those really important checks when people are doing a particular type of mahi, particularly those where there is a more, I guess, vulnerable group of people involved\u2014for example, if you\u2019re working with children or you\u2019re working in a particular job where these checks are necessary. This bill will mean that that process is a lot easier and a lot more streamlined, which is really important given there are 650,000 requests every year to vet individuals. That\u2019s quite a big demand, and so we\u2019re happy to do things to make that process easier and more streamlined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s two important points that we want to point out around this bill. The first one is around privacy and the way that we retain that information about the individuals and making sure that where that information is shared, the privacy of that individual is protected under all circumstances, because this information can traverse some quite deeply personal details about decisions that that individual has made throughout their lifetime. The distribution of that information and that data has to be very carefully made, and the Privacy Commissioner has obviously made that point very clear that we have to be very careful with the ways that we look after and maintain that information. That\u2019s one big consideration that we have around the privacy rights of individuals and the rights that they have over their information and the collection of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe second point that we really want to make on this bill is we want to make sure that, through the passage of this bill, information that is thought about individuals and things that they may have done in their life doesn\u2019t prejudice their ability to go on to do further mahi in their lifetime. For example, you might have a person who committed a crime, it could have been a low-level offence at some point during their life, but we don\u2019t want that person to have to continue paying for that mistake that they made in their life. We\u2019re giving some consideration towards how long some of those convictions might exist with a person and to make sure that they\u2019re not being punished again and again, particularly those who have been released from prison and the way that those convictions and those records still impact them even after they\u2019ve served their time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re concerned about this kind of double jeopardy situation where someone continues to be punished for something that they\u2019ve done time for. That\u2019s a consideration that we have and that comes from the belief that we have in everybody\u2019s potential to turn their lives around regardless of their actions. I\u2019m not saying that, if somebody has committed a particular type of crime, we should disregard that information; what I\u2019m saying is that they shouldn\u2019t have to keep paying for something if they have done their time, done their sentence, and then are trying to reintegrate back into society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s, basically, our two considerations in a nutshell. It\u2019s really around those privacy concerns and around the fact that when people have done their time and have demonstrated that they\u2019ve been able to turn their lives around, we shouldn\u2019t continue to punish them in the ways that they can access different forms of employment or continue their life without continuing to, I guess, experience that prejudice. That\u2019s our point, and happy to support this and to continue to scrutinise this bill as it moves through the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a653cffb30864a66843ece015ca83fa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a653cffb30864a66843ece015ca83fa4\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT to\u00A0speak on the Policing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill in this first reading. Look, I think this is a very important piece of legislation. It is going to be considered, as I understand, by the hard-working Justice Committee, and ACT will be supporting it in this first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EA lot has been already said by my colleagues across the House, but it is important that we get this police-vetting framework in place. I was surprised to learn, actually, of the number of vets that are done each year: 650,000. Out of the population of New Zealand, that\u2019s a considerable number. These are very important processes and checks that are done. As the member from the Greens, Tamatha Paul, said, particularly when you\u2019re dealing with vulnerable people, children, etc., it\u2019s very important that this work is undertaken. I was also surprised at the number of agencies\u2014some 14,000 agencies that actually do use the police for these vetting services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThis bill does tidy up, really, a recommendation\u2014again, this has been touched on already\u2014from this joint report way back in 2016; again, work done by the Privacy Commissioner and the Independent Police Conduct Authority. I think it is great that we\u2019re actually bringing this bill forward. It\u2019s going to put in place this framework to make sure that these really important processes that are done by the police are done in an appropriate way, a transparent way, and in a way where the people who are having the checks done on them do consent to it and they understand how that information is going to be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EAgain, I think it\u2019s been well-traversed some of the things that it\u2019s going to put in place, but really it is going to set out who can make these requests, how they\u2019re going to be done, and really what is the service that the police are undertaking for these many, many agencies to make sure that people being engaged, particularly with vulnerable children and young people\u2014that their education, their safety, their welfare are being properly vetted and that information\u2019s being made available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just probably going to leave it there. I look forward to, again, seeing this when it comes before the select committee. We can look at it in more detail, but I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00222fe21d608e4444be9720a04e57846005\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fe21d608e4444be9720a04e57846005\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in support of the Policing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill. I\u2019d first like to acknowledge the effort the police make. As we\u2019ve worked through this process, we recognise that police will often respond to a change of policy or process or system and just get to work delivering the service that\u2019s being required of them. This vetting process, I think, is one of those ones where police have been inundated, to some extent, on the demands in this vetting process. It has been important that they commenced work straight away, and they have delivered a very positive service to New Zealanders, ensuring that we make sure that people are qualified, that they are suitable for the roles they\u2019re put into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThis delivery of a framework has been a long time coming, as we\u2019ve alluded to, but I think it\u2019s really important that we now get this right and ensure that we deliver a service and a system that is robust, that is reviewed, that is protected\u2014particularly that police are given some level of protection indemnity. I know it\u2019s been raised, this issue about whether someone should be allowed to be cleared of any previous wrongdoings and allowed to continue with their life. I think it\u2019s important to note that the police-vetting process is presenting information. They are not making the decisions on who should or shouldn\u2019t work; they are just presenting information. I think it\u2019s really useful that when they present that information, they have some level of protection that they can deliver full, detailed information without that fear of if they misstep or misspeak\u2014that there is a degree of indemnity to ensure that there is a really frank and honest exchange.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EA lot of these vettings relate to people in positions that need to have the highest level of trust in them because of the roles and tasks that we\u2019re putting them under. This process that\u2019s been put in place, this piece of legislation, will be important as we move forward, not only in the process but also in the ability to recover costs and ensure that we are delivering a better public service by investing in the systems and processes and equipment that we will use to maintain and control this information. It is with pleasure, on behalf of New Zealand First, that we commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c993b2409ade4ae3bdf3652c692b2a97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c993b2409ade4ae3bdf3652c692b2a97\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. T\u016B ana hau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. E tautoko ana m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker, and also greetings to the House. I stand on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. We support this bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWe are in support of this bill, the Policing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill. We understand that police vetting involves background checks when people apply for certain jobs. Background checks are usually required for roles that involve working with certain children and vulnerable people, as well as Government roles, requiring a high level of public trust. It is not the same as the Ministry of Justice\u2019s criminal-record checks, which provide information only about convictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ECurrently, there are around 14,000 agencies who can request police background checks on new applicants. The purpose of this bill is to clarify the law around this undertaking, including (1) who can ask what and about whom, and (2) the need for consent and what information can be gained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EIn respect of mana motuhake, this bill does involve sharing data with employers, but this is mitigated by the need for consent. Another issue is the potential for double jeopardy\u2014being punished multiple times for the same action\u2014but this is mitigated by the need to ensure the safety of tamariki and vulnerable people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EFocusing on the safety of tamariki and vulnerable people is key for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. In respect of mana \u014Drite, I note that M\u0101ori are much more likely to come into contact with police. M\u0101ori are 37 percent of the people proceeded against by the police, despite being only 19.6 percent of the population. This law could disproportionately impact M\u0101ori because the police are more likely to hold data on M\u0101ori. We would like to hear more about these implications at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EIn respect to mana mokopuna, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori supports clarifying the rules around background checks that will ensure that those entrusted with taking care of our mokopuna are vetted appropriately. With a view to hear more about potential implications for iwi and M\u0101ori, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori supports this bill in its first reading. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e924de955bbd4dbd957a52e516d7e8d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e924de955bbd4dbd957a52e516d7e8d2\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do apologise to the House for maybe sounding a bit under the weather after a week of prize-giving in a two-day event at the Ashburton Show\u2014a great show. I may have picked up a couple of bugs on the way, but I will do my heartiest to support this bill through its first reading today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EIt appears that this will be another bill sent to the busy and effective Justice Committee, so I want to acknowledge my colleagues in the House on the Justice Committee, who will be preparing furiously for the long-awaited arrival of this bill, the 23rd bill to be considered by the Justice Committee in this Parliament. I was doing some statistics earlier on today. We have reported 11 back, we have 11 under consideration, and four are awaiting us on the Order Paper. My message to my colleagues on the Justice Committee is to maybe clear your diaries for the next couple of Mondays because we might be very, very busy in the lead-up to Christmas. Can I support\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a8e4a9e2e349089aff00dbe8f17d9f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Do I hear a k\u016Bmara speaking of its sweetness there, Mr Meager? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5825f7b462940f1a6464c44ee7b443b\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not too sure if the workload will be that sweet as we head into Christmas, but can I just say that this is a good bill that we will be supporting through the House. It puts in place and codifies the structures that currently exist for police vetting. I, like my colleagues, was a little surprised to fully realise that the vetting process isn\u2019t actually in statute, and so some of the protections around privacy that should ordinarily be in place are not so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EThe genesis of this bill has come from the 2016 report by the Privacy Commissioner and Independent Police Conduct Authority, which recommended that some structure and some rigour be put in place, because, after all, we are dealing with the situation where an agency holds your information and a third party is requesting that information, but not necessarily with your consent. When we do that, we must be doing that for very good reasons, and, Mr Assistant Speaker O\u2019Connor, I suspect, given the history of some in this House\u2014yourself included\u2014of dealing with people in this area, including some offenders, we\u2019d want to make sure that we are protecting children and we\u2019d want to make sure that the people who work with children are thoroughly vetted. When we allow agencies to share information about individuals, we should do so with good intentions and good reasons in mind, and that is the protection of children and of vulnerable people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EI refer to some of the concerns back in 2017 from the likes of the Nurses Union, who were concerned, of course, about the extent of some of the information that was being shared. Hopefully, some of the protections that are in place in this bill will address some of those concerns. I draw members\u2019 attention to some of the requirements in there about what the police-vetting service is required to do when a vet is made\u2014some of the protections around vets against children. For example, I believe you will be unable to undertake a vet against an individual who is under 14\u2014a child\u2014and there are some additional protections in place when vets are being requested of workers and volunteers under the age of 18. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that we put this structure in place. It\u2019s important that we modernise the law. A number of roles in our country are required by statute to undergo police vetting. That includes, of course, those working in schools and the education sector, nursing, healthcare, and the protection of children. I think this is a good step by the Government. We will be supporting it through the first reading, and I look forward to considering it as a member of the Justice Committee in due course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00220ee8ab58241a46c2b6bd91c9f5d5fc85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ee8ab58241a46c2b6bd91c9f5d5fc85\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. I fear for the Justice Committee, given that member managed to stretch out a speech on such an uncontentious bill for so long\u2014I hope he moves business before the committee at a slightly brisker pace! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not going to take up a great deal of the House\u2019s time, because this is an uncontentious bill. It\u2019s not got a lot of high policy. I think, if there is policy in it, it is about the use of what could be seen as private information and what\u2019s, essentially, delving into and investigating the private affairs of an individual and balancing that against the need for public safety. That\u2019s, at its root, what this bill is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAs has been said on a number of occasions already, the rules and framework that\u2019s proposed is one that largely has been adopted by the police already, with some finessing. It is absolutely proper that it goes to select committee, which is the right place to do that detailed work and make sure that we\u2019re not being overly intrusive, and at the same time the police-vetting process is effective and prophylactic in terms of public safety. To be perfectly honest, at this stage of the debate, in my view, there\u2019s not a great deal more to say, although I\u2019m sure my colleague Tracey McLellan will have much more to say. I will simply commend it to the select committee and to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00226efbc95b859f4ad1b9090f7a660b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226efbc95b859f4ad1b9090f7a660b38e1\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I\u2019m very happy, like everyone else seems to be today, to be supporting the first reading of the Policing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill. Just reiterating what our hard-working chair of the Justice Committee James Meager pointed out: that this legislation, to get it to first reading, has had a long gestation. When you look back at 2016 when the IPCA, the Independent Police Conduct Authority, and the Privacy Commissioner released the joint review into the police\u2019s vetting service, that was their recommendation back then in 2016\u2014coming up nine years ago\u2014for a statutory framework for police vetting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EAs the bill\u2019s policy statement says, \u201CThe potential impact on individuals who are the subject of a police vet warrants a robust and transparent statutory framework being established to formalise the operation of the Police-vetting service.\u201D Like others have said, I look forward to submissions and to working through this as part of the Justice Committee. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2b785c0f96d4eada612f41f97af400b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2b785c0f96d4eada612f41f97af400b\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Labour supports this bill, as several of my colleagues have said, and for good reason. I think it\u2019s pragmatic and most of the issues or potential issues are pretty clear and have been worked through. I, like several other contributors today, was really surprised at how many police vets are done. I feel like I kind of remember when it came in\u2014I\u2019m not sure how long ago that was\u2014but it may have just been as a younger person being fully aware that that\u2019s something that the police did. It seems to have been well embraced and well used, which is relatively surprising given the lack of that regulatory framework. I think, following the review, it makes sense to put that structure in place just to provide that statutory framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EOne of the other issues, and I was just looking through the information, was that\u2014notwithstanding the fact that this, essentially, just affords the opportunity for things to work as they normally do anyhow but with that regulatory framework and that backstop\u2014the bill itself and much of the work and much of the consultation obviously started actually quite some years ago now. Whilst we talk about getting it to this stage, the public consultation actually sort of happened between May and July in 2018. At the time, there were 76 submissions that Police had received, and the Privacy Commissioner had also previously been consulted, so there\u2019s been some legwork done in the background of this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI did note, though, that the Privacy Commissioner, who was previously consulted, had some issue supporting the establishment\u2014or certainly supported the establishment of the statutory framework but did have some concerns about the new section 54N, inserted by clause 5, which is \u201CIndemnity for Commissioner and Police employees\u201D. On the surface, when you look back through that information, you could see why that would need to happen, given that the police are providing the service of doing the vets for other organisations, so they wouldn\u2019t want necessarily to hold the liability or be held accountable if something was to go wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EFrom the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s point of view\u2014it appears that there is some debate about whether they should or shouldn\u2019t, given that the consequences for something going wrong could be quite drastic for an individual or a group if that wasn\u2019t done properly. The Privacy Commissioner had raised the concerns with that provision. So, as we go through the select committee process, it will be interesting to see what other information comes to light or what other issues get raised by various submitters to the process, because, as the Privacy Commissioner said here, \u201CSignificant harms can result from the disclosure of potentially prejudicial information that may not be tested in a Court.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI think, as a member of the Justice Committee\u2014and a very busy committee, very ably chaired by one of the previous contributors, James Meager; I\u2019ll just throw him a wee comment because it felt like he needed it from over here. It is a busy committee. I think sometimes these things can seem a little bit dry, but there\u2019s some interest in here, and I look forward to hearing those submissions. On that note, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u00224d5b6b6b921e483fbbe83ed87ebfae8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d5b6b6b921e483fbbe83ed87ebfae8f\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Once again, I rise as the final speaker on a bill that we have before the House today. Right now, it\u2019s the Policing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill. For the benefit of listeners from home and from work, we\u2019re at the first reading stage. As we heard earlier, but if they weren\u2019t tuned in, this is a Government bill in the name of the Hon Mark Mitchell, our Minister of Police, and an excellent Minister of Police at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s good to hear that across the House at this first reading, there is support for this bill. I add my k\u014Drero to those before me that I too was quite astounded that at this stage in Aotearoa New Zealand, we don\u2019t actually have a statutory framework that allows for police vetting to work within.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EI guess the question becomes: why is a framework important, in particular a statutory one? It\u2019s for consistency. Consistency is so important. It\u2019s so important, particularly when you\u2019re dealing with people\u2019s private information. When we, hopefully, establish this framework, there are those rules and those requirements and regulations that do need to be adhered to when vetting is being sought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EI look forward to being part of the Justice Committee, chaired by my good friend James Meager. I look forward to discussing these issues. We commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2b2a3bc2c91461ca445b750f367474a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2b2a3bc2c91461ca445b750f367474a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Policing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c580a00d6ff49949b0d742f21db9f3c\u0022\u003EBuilding (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f16af070eb04bb08ebfbc07b713959c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00227b24a33ed5384e48b639f91c4b2731dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b24a33ed5384e48b639f91c4b2731dc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, sir. I present a legislative statement on the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c01eccacefa44002a04ee00aceec0cf7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e21ae8cc4ce9407a953c3e70e0be25d7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EEarlier this year, we came together as a Parliament to discuss a major problem in our country, and this bill will go some way, at least, but not the whole way that we need to go ultimately, to solve that problem. There are, in effect, two problems. One is, of course, the perils of inhabiting the Shaky Isles, as our land is affectionately but also fearsomely known. That\u2019s a real-world danger. That risk is ever-present and we should not take that lightly at all; indeed, I don\u2019t think anyone in this House would take that lightly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EA second danger exists, which is that in relation to the rules that govern earthquake-prone buildings, there is a large degree of non-compliance currently because of the operation of the rules, implemented, as they were, in good faith a decade ago, roughly speaking, but with barriers having become apparent in the meantime as to the strengthening or, variously, demolition of those buildings. The aim of this legislation is to mitigate the risk that we have a large number of buildings that are not legally compliant, even as we encourage those who are able to strengthen or demolish\u2014again, as the case may be\u2014those buildings which might represent a danger and a risk to life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBefore I go any further, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the work of the select committees, plural\u2014and I\u2019ll explain that in a moment\u2014but primarily the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, chaired ably by Mr Andy Foster, and I look forward to any contribution he may be about to make in the House on the subject, along with those of others across the House, of course. I do want to thank the committee for its careful deliberation. It\u2019s obvious to me from the report that they\u2019ve written that they\u2019ve turned their mind carefully to a couple of very important matters within the bill, and I\u2019d like to take a little bit of time to address those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFor the sake of completeness, I will note that with the legislative statement having been tabled, there are some technical matters that spell out a number of different elements within the bill that I don\u2019t feel the need to rehearse, and that\u2019s, of course, the whole purpose of us being able to table legislative statements. I don\u2019t need to read that out carefully into the record. That exists as a matter of record, and I\u2019d rather spend the time focusing on the earthquake-prone building aspects of the bill. That\u2019s the main part of the legislation that was the driving force for getting it into the House, as the name suggests. As the name also suggests, there are \u201Cother matters\u201D, and for any member of the public, or, indeed, member of the House, who wishes to familiarise themselves with those, then, of course, I would encourage them to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a221e3ef49e4539aa3947c61fd7d187\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Feel free to coach your fellow Cabinet Ministers on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa34a09ed8c74d46b606776185455eea\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I couldn\u2019t possibly comment, sir\u2014\u201CYou might think that\u201D, as the saying also says, and you\u2019re never wrong, Mr Speaker, of course, even when you are. In terms of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7c6b0d857114f7da82c68e29d6773b4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The day will come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265a179a910394999babe9ce1bdaa7bfd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014other matters, they\u2019re not insignificant. For example, with the building warrant of fitness scheme, what are known as specified systems sounds very technocratic, but they are actually really important fire safety systems, and actually also to do, crucially, with the preservation of life and buildings. It\u2019s not a small matter, and glossing over it reasonably quickly within the period of time allocated to me doesn\u2019t indicate a lack of importance of that or a lack of attention on behalf of the Government or the Parliament, but, rather, I think it\u2019s more helpful to ventilate some of the issues that were canvassed at select committee regarding the deadline that\u2019s being offered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJust to be clear, then, the deadline aspect is saying, in effect, that there will be more time available to those who own earthquake-prone buildings to get up to the standard that is currently required, technically, but having made it pretty clear that we intend to review\u2014indeed, we are already reviewing\u2014we intend to reach a place where the settings are likely to be different than they currently are. We are also, in addition to providing that extra breathing space of the additional four years, providing an opportunity for people not to be committed to a course of action that might not be appropriate, given the rules that will prevail following that review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI do just want to set that scene as a prelude to discussing the fact that the extension is framed in terms of a four-year period but also with an additional possibility of the two years, and that\u2019s an important point that we\u2019ll get to in a moment. The point that the select committee\u2014again, the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2014made around the policy intent for the deadlines, I think, was a really helpful one. They suggested an amendment for the sake of clarity\u2014which we accept\u2014which is that if there should be not only a four-year period but also an additional two-year period, the extensions would apply to all those deadlines\u2014namely, those extended originally by four years under the new section but also those issued between the commencement date of the legislation and the Order in Council being made under that new section. Just to be really clear, the idea is that the additional four years and then two years, if granted, would apply to any of the extended deadlines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of when the deadlines apply from, the date is actually 2 April. There\u2019s a retrospective element, and, of course, usually in this House we are nervous, or at least mindful, of what we are doing in relation to retrospective elements within legislation. The general rule is that you don\u2019t have them in the criminal law, and you don\u2019t have them to disadvantage any party. In this case, the advantage would be that we are extending the effect of the extension back to the date that we announced that that would be available, even though, in the meantime, it\u2019s the case that the law of the land is in accordance with the statute. It\u2019s not something that I could change by mere Government statement or media release, as aficionados of Fitzgerald v Muldoon would know, and one of them is seated beside me\u2014Mr James Meager is all over that. I mean, he\u2019s all over, no doubt, the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clauses, and that\u2019s where we get to. It\u2019s exciting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022692bb1f667f44f659d23aefab8583800\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Regs Review\u2014the best committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebba4eefa9ce4889b7074ebc9a3a5835\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as a matter for the Regulations Review Committee, and I did foreshadow that I was grateful to select committees, plural. Not only the Transport and Infrastructure Committee but also the Regulations Review Committee have made an important point about \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clauses and the way that this legislation actually will make use of one. The point that they have made, quite rightly\u2014both select committees; originally the Regulations Review Committee, and then, as acknowledged, but ultimately not acted upon by a majority of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2014is that if we have a piece of legislation that says that there shall be an extra four years available and there may also be an additional two, then that would be in the Minister\u2019s discretion, but it should be Parliament that decides what applies in the matter of primary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIf I can draw a very fine distinction, the select committee report says that the Minister would be allowed to set a date later than that expected by Parliament. It might be that Parliament expects only four years, but I think that Parliament is anticipating an additional two, should that be required\u2014and I emphasise that it will be only if it\u2019s required. The real-world imperative is that we would like to review the settings as quickly as possible, we\u2019d like them to be in place, and we\u2019d like the people to have enough time to be able to comply with those, but if four years proves too little a period of time for that, then I would be minded to grant an extension of an additional two years so that people have an opportunity to comply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s an inherent lack of certainty, of course, when you review settings. We know that major decisions require technical analysis, require investment, and require cooperation of different parties, particularly when there are adjacent buildings, and require input from local government, bodies corporate in the case of unit titles, and so on. These are quite weighty matters, and we wish to resolve the matter in terms of new settings following the review as soon as possible, but if it\u2019s not possible, then we would want people to have the additional two years, and that is why that mechanism is there. To allow that flexibility, I didn\u2019t want to be too specific and be constrained in a way that might be subject to further uncertainty, in effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIf the legislation were to include a clause along those lines, it might say something like \u201CThe Minister would grant an additional two years only if reasonably necessary in order to ensure sufficient time for compliance with the earthquake-prone building regime as it exists following the review of the earthquake-prone building settings.\u201D I know that\u2019s wordy, and it\u2019s probably better that it didn\u2019t go into the law, or at least not as drafted by me, but for anyone who\u2019s paying attention carefully and for whom this is meaningful, please know that that\u2019s the intent. We\u2019d like to do everything\u2014done and dusted\u2014within four years, but if we need an extra two years, then we will do that for the benefit of those who need to comply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, we could have simply just said that it was six years from the outset, but I do want to hold my own feet to the fire, and those of the Government and of lawmakers in general, to try and get a result more quickly than that. Every day that we have uncertainty, and, of course, real-world risk associated with non-strengthening and non-demolition works of earthquake-prone buildings, represents at least a theoretical risk. So, for that reason, we\u2019ve landed where we have in terms of the legislation. I\u2019m grateful for the engagement of all the parties and I look forward to the contributions of others, and, of course, for myself, I do commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227b94757f1a9442a181ee329bd7253125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b94757f1a9442a181ee329bd7253125\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002258531e417e6946b0943580e38a878692\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258531e417e6946b0943580e38a878692\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This has been a productive process through the select committee, and I want to thank everyone who has participated in it\u2014it was a lively debate at the select committee\u2014and thank the submitters who took the time to come along and really work through some of the issues that this bill raises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ELabour will be tentatively supporting the bill at this stage, and that is a change in position from the first reading. Having heard from the submitters and worked through the policy issues, we have some support for really working through the issue which the Minister has said, both publicly and in this House, is the reason for the extension of the deadline, and that is to deal with the underlying policy settings which need to be sorted out by the Government, and, look, they\u2019ve been around for three decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve been debating in this Parliament and through the Law Commission and through the courts the role of council, the role of central government, and the role of homeowners when it comes to who pays for the strengthening of existing buildings in our building system. It\u2019s the Labour Party\u2019s position that people should not be put in undue risk due to the buildings they\u2019re in, and that homeowners\u2014especially vulnerable homeowners\u2014should not be in a position where they\u2019re bearing the entire cost, which is really untenable, particularly for many of the apartment owners who are burdened by these rules at the moment and who have come forward during the select committee process and made their case very strongly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHowever, I want to put it on record very clearly that Labour in Government had a solution to this which is better than the one that is being proposed by the Government now. Labour had a scheme called the Residential Earthquake-Prone Building Financial Assistance Scheme, which offered up to $250,000 for the below-market rates payable on sale to protect those homeowners who would have been at a significant financial disadvantage because of the compliance that was being put on them. That also meant that compliance was required as soon as possible, and it meant that building owners would have been required to remediate buildings which were at risk. We\u2019re not only putting those people who live in them at risk, but casual users of those buildings\u2014mixed-use buildings like car parks and commercial facilities, where people might not have the information about the kinds of buildings that they were going into\u2014and neighbours of those buildings, which were also put at risk by earthquake-prone buildings being around them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s in everyone\u2019s interests that New Zealand buildings comply with earthquake standards as soon as possible, and that\u2019s why Labour, at the first reading, was opposed to this bill. We\u2019re now looking to the Government for leadership on some of those really big issues that submitters have come forward and said they want to address in these four years. We say, let\u2019s go\u2014let\u2019s work on that together because bipartisanship and a long-term vision on this is really important, but let\u2019s make sure it\u2019s independent. We need to make sure that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) is also working alongside independent experts on this, and Labour is still looking for the Minister to announce the membership of the independent review alongside the independent chair, which has not been announced, and we\u2019re still looking for a broader consultation with affected homeowners, particularly, in this. But we support it, and we support it along with some of the issues that the Minister has outlined. We need to get our heads around this and make sure that New Zealanders are well served by the legal framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll touch briefly on some of the issues around the safeguards here, and then I will speak to the independently qualified person\u2019s rules, which are also being changed in this bill. Firstly, to the appropriate safeguards, we\u2019ve just heard from the Minister that it\u2019s his expectation that there will be a four-year period for this, but there is a possibility that there will be a two-year extension. We firmly believe that if it was the intention for six years to be used, it would have been set in this legislation, and our support for it is contingent on the fact that there is a four-year deadline here and there is only a two-year step-out if that is really required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAt the select committee stage, we pressed officials for a reason why they would not include a rationale for the Minister to use the extra two years that is being allowed for here in the primary legislation. That might have included, say, a reason and criteria that the Minister would have had to have satisfied himself were fulfilled if he were to use the extra two-year extension, because we don\u2019t agree that there should be an extra two-year step out for purely administrative reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe review that has been promised here by the Government into the underlying policy issues should be completed in four years. It should be properly resourced. There should be enough people in MBIE to be able to do that review in the four years, and if it is only a constraint on the Public Service which requires it to be six years, then that is not a good enough reason for the legislation to be extended\u2014not by Parliament\u2014and we should be very clear with the Public Service here that what we need to do is to settle these matters as quickly as possible. Four years should be the absolute maximum. The only reason, in the Labour Party\u2019s view, that a six-year period should be used is if some event happens\u2014either an earthquake event or some huge event like COVID\u2014which disrupts the Public Service\u2019s ability to be able to continue this work, and that should have been the criteria that was in the primary legislation to extend it. I\u2019ll be asking the Minister for some further clarifications on that in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe next point I want to talk about is that if it is extended beyond the four-year deadline and into the six-year deadline, we then really do come back to those criticisms which were raised with the select committee in the select committee process by submitters\u2014particularly those from Christchurch\u2014who raised questions with us around \u201CIsn\u2019t this approach something which continually kicks the can down the road and that really rewards the behaviour of putting it off to the very last minute and rewards those insurers who are unable to settle with homeowners who are looking for a solution?\u201D Look, I don\u2019t think that that is what is happening here with a four-year period, but if it is any further than that, then I think those concerns begin to have real legitimacy in the public discourse. We have to set the Public Service very clear deadlines around wanting to resolve this as soon as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we are keen to continue to work with this and to continue to make it work in a bipartisan way, but that does mean resolving it as quickly as possible and getting right to the heart of the nitty-gritty up front. Who is going to pay for the strengthening, because the strengthening will cost New Zealanders, and it will cost everyone. Is it the Government\u2019s responsibility, is it the local council\u2019s responsibility, is it the homeowner\u2019s responsibility, or is it all of the above, and do we need a scheme that shares responsibility within all of those? That is the question which we need answered here, and I will put it to members that, actually, there\u2019s a series of value judgments that can be resolved within a four-year period and the information and the policy settings will not change within that four-year period. That work can be done and should be done as quickly as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow, just moving on quickly, before I run out of time, to the \u201Cindependently qualified person\u201D part of the bill, this is a good step to ensure that the standards that homeowners, that councils, and that central government have around the quality of buildings and their fitness for things like fire regulations are being upheld across the system. But it is, essentially, a fine that would be levied against people who are responsible for, say, carrying out these checks without the help that this industry requires in terms of making sure that councils are giving them the most up-to-date and accurate information, that the training and the qualifications and the certifications around this industry of practice are well supported, that there is the right kind of training available for these people, and that there is a register that independently qualified people can access and that is publicly available for the people who rely on them. Those are things that should be progressed alongside a fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s taking a punitive approach to solve the problem where there could be a supportive approach as well, and we\u2019d like to see some work in ensuring that these fines are being levied in a way which actually achieves the result that certain people aren\u2019t receiving more fines than others. We would like to see some reporting on that in the next year to make sure that it\u2019s not overly punitive and is disincentivising people to even get into the professional practice in the first place, and so that we\u2019re not creating a regime where it\u2019s only very, very, very highly qualified and, therefore, expensive professionals who are able to undertake this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn closing, I just want to reflect that this has been a policy-intensive work programme for the select committee members involved. We have been extremely reliant on the submissions of the stakeholders who have been impacted by this\u2014not only homeowners but insurers from the councils who have been involved in it\u2014and I want to thank those experts who have been able to feed into this. It is something that many people are deeply interested in and that will affect people\u2019s livelihoods and people\u2019s retirement savings. It is something which has been incredibly emotive at the committee stages and for the stakeholders who have been involved with it, and so I\u2019m just acknowledging how much of a stake people have in this. There will be many, many people who are not affected by it at all. There will be some people for whom this is their entire life savings and life plan ahead of them, and their retirement will look hugely different if we don\u2019t get this right. We want to keep engaging with those stakeholders, we want to keep hearing from them, and we\u2019ll continue to work with the Minister on something that will be long lasting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e32325c182784b0f83afe12066171042\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e32325c182784b0f83afe12066171042\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e Te Whare. The challenge of earthquake-prone buildings is very, very real, and the difficulty in achieving all of the capacity that we need in this sector to address the many buildings is the reason why this bill was brought to the House. We didn\u2019t hear a huge number of submitters at the select committee, but very few were opposed to the proposal of changing the deadlines by four years, although it could be another two years, as the previous speaker Arena Williams just alluded to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI recently was looking at the numbers of earthquake-prone buildings across the country, and people may be surprised to know that there are over 1,500 in Auckland; still 930, almost, in Canterbury; and 822 in the Wellington region\u2014so not just Wellington City, although Wellington City is the majority of those, with 572\u2014and, actually, there are earthquake-prone buildings right across the country and in some of our smaller towns like Marton. Local councils, community groups, and building owners right across the country are facing the difficulty of remediating buildings to ensure that they are safe, and that\u2019s really important. It is really important that we do have good standards and that buildings are safe, and yet meeting the standards that were brought in in 2016 by a previous National Government has proved extremely difficult. As things currently stand, there\u2019s no means in the regulations or the legislation for prioritising which buildings must be remediated sooner rather than later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOne thing that the select committee did not consider, because it was out of the scope of this bill, but it might be considered in the review and what happens next, should the extension pass\u2014which it probably will\u2014is looking at how we can make this more achievable for people. There\u2019s no point in having rules and regulations if it\u2019s completely unachievable, and even if there\u2019s all the good will in the world to remediate these buildings, there is a lack of cash, certainly for apartment owners here in Wellington who might be on a fixed income, or for buildings that are owned by councils or community groups. There\u2019s even a lack of resource in the sector to remediate all of these buildings. They can\u2019t all be done at once, and having blanket deadlines doesn\u2019t take into account the fact that there is a limit on the number of expert engineers, project managers, builders, and everyone else that is needed to remediate the buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThrough the review, one thing the Green Party is particularly interested in is addressing those issues, because, ultimately, this bill is just a short-term band-aid on the problem. We support the bill, but it is just a band-aid, and we need a medium- and long-term solution to actually address the constraints to ensure that buildings can be remediated and that they can be safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOne way to do that is to introduce the concept of prioritisation\u2014so to really make a clear pathway and process by which Government and local government can work together to ensure that the buildings that are at the highest risk are the ones that are being remediated first. If you have a multi-storey apartment building that people are living in, or a commercial building that hundreds of people are working in, clearly that is a greater risk to life and wellbeing than a one-storey, hundred-year-old tennis club that doesn\u2019t have anyone in it most of the time. That\u2019s not to say that that building shouldn\u2019t be remediated, but it\u2019s a different level of risk. If we could bring some prioritisation to this process, that would certainly help those in the sector and those who are struggling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThat alone will not solve the issue of the cost, and that\u2019s where I do think central government does need to come up with a viable solution, because it was the case that there was great investment and necessary investment in Christchurch after the Canterbury earthquakes. However, we haven\u2019t seen that level of central government investment in Wellington or some of the other smaller communities that were affected by the Kaik\u014Dura earthquake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe previous Government had a fund. Unfortunately, it was a little bit difficult to access. However, there were some people who had gone through all the trouble of trying to access this fund. I have a person in my electorate who contacted me. Their elderly parent lives in my electorate and they live in an earthquake-prone apartment building. They had just jumped through all the hoops to access that fund that had been set up and then the Government announced that it was being pulled, and so far, we don\u2019t have anything in its place. That was causing enormous distress to this person, who is a pensioner who is on a limited income, and I think it\u2019s really important that we all work together on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThis bill has cross-party support, but we need to go further and get cross-party support on really sustainable solutions that address the fiscal issues faced, so that it\u2019s not just left to local government or building owners but that they\u2019re able to access the help that they need, especially in the cases where they may not even be able to pull the building down if it has heritage status. We need to ensure that the buildings are able to be brought up to standard so that they can be safe and we can protect our heritage so people can be safe living in them, and so that this enormous cost burden is not simply put on local government or local communities but is shared. I think central government has a really important role to play in that, so we look forward to the further steps to address those issues. The Green Party is supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u00226b86b7ea75a74758878510c516686b44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b86b7ea75a74758878510c516686b44\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of the ACT Party to support the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EAs the title gives allusion to, it\u2019s extending the deadlines for conducting remedial work on buildings which are deemed earthquake-prone, which, for people at home, are at under 34 percent of the building code\u2014but that doesn\u2019t help explain much, though, does it? Really, what we\u2019ve got here in New Zealand is a scheme in which engineers and other professionals come in and assess a building, and if they think that due to its geographic location, its structure\u2014the knowledge of what is held in plans, sometimes at council; sometimes in museums. If that gives an engineer or a professional the tools to develop an assessment of that building that says that it is earthquake-prone, it will need to be remediated to make it safe for the occupants and for the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had lots of events in these Shaky Isles, as the Minister has alluded to, and this has meant that there have been a lot of changes to the way buildings are measured in New Zealand. There are so many small towns in New Zealand, which have got challenges, in some cases. Some small parts of New Zealand are growing for their beautiful location, the amenities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa57a0fac9f84f68bd5e5a10b07f5bae\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e257b401064444749f543e716823afd4\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the type of life\u2014and the ACT member for Southland over there is a prime\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022523f4677396249d9b91f8243c36ac366\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: National\u2014National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c1b2865b6a74fe4847f3c8db4ddb195\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, the National member for Southland can speak with pride about his wonderful electorate, and it is a wonderful electorate and there\u2019s many wonderful parts of New Zealand with historic buildings. Unfortunately, with building warrants of fitness, with fires, with earthquake-prone\u2014many parts of New Zealand that are proud of their historic buildings are left in a situation where these buildings are very expensive to remediate, and they need to come up with a plan for both how they\u2019re going to conduct that remediation and also how they\u2019re going to pay for it: what\u2019s the business proposition that this building can offer? It\u2019s admirable for members of the Opposition to spend taxpayers\u2019 money on offering incentives to say that we could give loans to be paid back on completion on a sale of a building, but, actually, that\u2019s taxpayer money, and we need to make sure that we\u2019re putting the money to work in a good way that is actually sustainable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ETo that end, just yesterday I visited a hostel in Tauranga\u2014a beautiful hostel. It\u2019s called Wanderlust. It\u2019s 105\u2014it\u2019s more than 105; it was built in 1905. It\u2019s a historic building. It\u2019s got a great deal of importance to The Strand in Tauranga and the life and times of Tauranga, and the owners, Sarah and Matt, have done an amazing job with their remediation. They have stripped the walls and they\u2019ve spent a lot of time on the end of a paintbrush, by all accounts, bringing this building up to a place where they can be proud, and the people of Tauranga can also be proud, of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EThat is on the main strand of Tauranga, a place that has got up and coming commercial opportunities. It\u2019s got a lot of emphasis and money being sent towards the CBD of Tauranga to make it a sort of a place that visitors will want to come. Young people from Europe and around the world will want to come and spend their OE having a backpacker\u2019s experience, picking our beautiful fruit in the Bay of Plenty and working at the cafes and bars, and this sort of thing is a great asset to Tauranga. But the earthquake remediation that\u2019s been done on it is only possible because of the economic future of the CBD. We need to give a chance for these councils in these smaller areas and the building owners who form part of it to take a step back, assess, and figure out where they want to spend their funds and how they want to bring their beautiful communities to life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EThere is another part of this bill\u2014and it\u2019s referred to in the \u201COther Matters\u201D\u2014and that is the independently qualified persons (IQPs) part. Now, what is happening in this bill is an increase in the fines, and from my perspective, that\u2019s increasing the stick to try and get compliance. The Labour member referred to the submissions, I believe, and we heard in the submissions to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee that it\u2019s all well and good to increase the fines, but, actually, what is being done to improve the state of the IQPs, their skills, their registry, and their counterparts on the councils and in other professions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EYou can\u2019t just expect IQPs to carry the can all the way for something they\u2019re intrinsically attached to, which is that the IQP assesses a building warrant of fitness. It\u2019s kind of like the mechanic who has a look at your car\u2019s warrant of fitness. An IQP comes and has a look at all the parts of a building that need to be maintained and kept safe, but they need to have access to training and a registry where competent people who are qualified can be found. They need to have people, as I say, who they interact with who\u00A0know what they\u2019re doing. They\u2019re not just throwing out anything and hoping that the IQP with their skills will pick it up because they\u2019re the ones that the stick is going to whack. We\u2019ve talked about this in the commentary from the select committee, and I hope that the Government takes up some of that and looks at some of our recommendations around IQPs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EAnother small part of the other matters was clarifying the exemptions for small heated pools. This is about how often an inspection for a small heated pool\u2014otherwise known as a spa\u2014would need to happen. Now, I think many members in this House would have had constituents come up to them and say, \u201COh my God, why do I have to have my pool inspected so often? It\u2019s very invasive. I\u2019ve got my fence and it\u2019s all sorted.\u201D Well, I definitely feel the pain of those homeowners that are dealing with the pool compliance laws. I would say that they are in place for a good reason, though, and that is to keep kids safe from drowning, and that\u2019s something that is laudable. But, when you\u2019ve got a product which is a compliant product, such as a secure cover on your spa pool, it doesn\u2019t seem like something that the councils need to be burdened with inspecting every three years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EAnother part that is happening in these other matters referred to is the tidying up a little bit around what is a code of acceptance. A code of acceptance, for those who don\u2019t have to deal with these, is basically where someone has gone and done some work that should have been permitted, as in with a building consent, but they didn\u2019t go and get the paperwork filled out, and went and did the work without that, you can apply for a code of acceptance. A code of acceptance basically says that the council has had a look at this and to the best of the council\u2019s or the building consenting authorities\u2019 knowledge, it is deemed safe and compliant with the code, but they cannot guarantee that all the way down to every screw because it\u2019s being covered up, perhaps. What we\u2019re doing here is just clarifying it to say that if you\u2019ve been issued with a code of acceptance, you don\u2019t need to go for a building consent. It seems simple because a code of acceptance is supposed to prevent you from needing a building consent, but I guess we\u2019re spelling it out in black and white for all to see\u00A0here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EAnother part of this that is quite good, I think, is the meetings that building consent authorities, or BCAs\u2014other stand-alone BCAs that aren\u2019t attached to a territorial authority. We\u2019re giving them some guidance and statutory requirements on how and when they need to send information to a territorial authority, and this is a great idea. I think that we need to be looking more at stand-alone building consenting authorities, and this is a mechanism to allow it to happen. Specifically, it\u2019s saying that that information needs to be supplied within five days, and the commentary back from the select committee is saying we should be making that five working days, which I\u2019m sure will be seen as a sensible change by all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s housing stock and our commercial and industrial stock is the place where New Zealanders live and provide for our economy, where they manufacture, and where they go and spend leisure time. It\u2019s an important environment, and it is an environment\u2014it\u2019s the human environment that we live in. It\u2019s somewhere where we need to make sure it\u2019s safe, but we also need to make sure it\u2019s affordable and it\u2019s somewhere where people want to be. Taking away burdens, or at least alleviating them, even if it is for a short time, so that plans can be made, policies can be developed, and workforces can be trained is a\u00A0very sensible initiative from this Minister and this Government, and I commend it to the\u00A0House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u002283faa8b8e11c4bb0961daa169e8775c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283faa8b8e11c4bb0961daa169e8775c8\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. I\u2019m just going to start with a few thanks before speaking to the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u2014it\u2019s a bit of a mouthful, isn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EFirst of all, can I say thank you, Minister Penk, for your generous comments, and it was a pleasure to shepherd this through the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. Thanks also to all the committee members. I think we work in a very collegial way and we try and find the best possible outcomes that we can, and everybody contributes in terms of asking good questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI also wanted to place on record my thanks to the officials and also to the submitters. I mean, we only had 23 submitters. Two of them didn\u2019t like the bill for various different reasons and for nine of them, they were sort of a bit hard to work out whether they did or didn\u2019t, but the majority of submitters said, \u201CWe think this is a very sensible bill.\u201D What\u2019s more, they brought to us quite a bit of perspective and quite a bit of expertise, and I\u2019ll come to some of that shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe bill is principally about, as I said, earthquake-prone building deadlines, and so I\u2019ll deal with that first, and then other matters. Principally, it\u2019s about extending the remediation deadlines for seismically prone buildings for four years, and it allows for another two years, if need be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ETo me, this is a common-sense, pragmatic approach, and there are two major reasons for that. The first one of those is we have a large number of buildings with seismic deadlines which are looming, particularly in this city here. I\u2019ll come back to that, but Wellington started the process of looking at earthquake-prone buildings early because we know it is a seismically active part of the country. The second reason for this is that the Government has launched a comprehensive\u2014and I do say comprehensive\u2014review of the reaction we take to seismic-prone buildings. Dealing with a seismically-prone building, particularly if it\u2019s a complex building or particularly if it\u2019s a heritage building\u2014and by no means all are\u2014is expensive, it\u2019s complex, and there are also issues of capacity, both of the owners and also of the industry to be able to respond to dealing with these. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe reason for having an extension and why it\u2019s so important is that what you don\u2019t want to do, as a building owner, is be trying to respond to the existing set of rules as they are at the moment and then also know that you might be having to respond to a different set of rules that are being thought about. I\u2019m going to quote from Inner City Wellington, who do a fantastic job in representing, particularly, the residential community in inner-city Wellington\u2014so apartment owners\u2014and a quote that they gave to us was this. They said, \u201CThe Government should not conduct the review of seismic risk management in existing buildings under the earthquake-prone building system\u201D\u2014i.e., the review\u2014\u201Cat the same time as requiring building owners to progress towards compliance. The review could result in significant changes to the earthquake-prone building regime. It is not reasonable for owners to face potential enforcement action on current requirements if they do not comply while the review is under way.\u201D, and that makes absolute sense, so it\u2019s a very pragmatic and sensible response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe whole issue\u2014which is, obviously, going to be tackled in the review\u2014is a challenging balancing one. We had a number of people who have made the observation both in submissions now but also over time that far, far fewer people have died in earthquakes as a result of buildings falling than have died on the road pretty much every year, and that\u2019s with a reduced road toll. However, it is still a significant issue, and if you look at the potential risk in some parts of our country\u2014and in this one more than in any other one\u2014of a major earthquake and you look at what\u2019s happened in major earthquakes overseas where building standards are poor, you see what the implications could be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIt is really, really important that we do have a really robust seismic building regime, because if we don\u2019t, the consequences could be absolutely catastrophic. I mean, Christchurch was bad. Christchurch was bad, but if you had a major event in this part of the country\u2014and we look at the likelihood of major events like the Alpine Fault going, the Hikurangi Fault going, or any of those major events\u2014the potential could be catastrophic, so we have to be a prepared community. It\u2019s that issue of balancing that preparation and that life safety with the cost of responding to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe issue has already been raised about who pays for that, and there is an element of public good and there\u2019s an element of private good. I mean, there\u2019ll be some people who will say, \u201COh, look, it\u2019s all public good.\u201D Well, actually, if you live in a building, I think you\u2019d get a private benefit out of it as well, but if you happened to be walking past, that\u2019s a public benefit. If it happens to be a heritage building\u2014why do we list buildings as heritage buildings? We don\u2019t list them as heritage buildings for the good of the owner; we list them as heritage buildings because we value them, as a nation, as a district, or as whatever it might be, because we\u2019re saying that those buildings add to the character, tell our stories, etc. There\u2019s a balancing act that needs to be done there and some real thought needs to be given to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EHow many buildings are involved? Well, at the beginning of this process, we had something like over 7,000 buildings across the country which were designated as earthquake-prone buildings, and about 2,000 of those have been resolved. As of 6 August, when this bill was brought to the House\u2014well, the first reading was on 8 August\u20145,421 buildings were still on the earthquake-prone building list. Almost 30 percent had been resolved by that stage, which is progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI am going to touch on Wellington because it\u2019s particularly dear to my heart. It is a very seismically active city, but if I just remind members of something that I said during the first reading, it was that we\u2019d just visited the crisis management centre downstairs. They said that, in the next 50 years, there was an 80 percent chance of an Alpine Fault event of 8-plus\u201480 percent\u2014a 25 percent chance of a Hikurangi Fault event of 8-plus; a 1 percent chance\u2014God help us\u2014of a Hikurangi Fault event of 9.1; and a 5 percent chance on the Wellington Fault. If you do the maths and you do the exclusions in there, there\u2019s about a 90 percent chance of a major earthquake affecting this part of the world in the next 50 years, so that\u2019s a really significant thing that we need to be responding to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWellington took this very, very seriously. In fact, Wellington City started a programme in 2006\u2014which you\u2019ll note was before the Canterbury earthquakes\u2014to assess all the buildings, and it assessed 8,440 buildings. I can remember at one stage going along to a conference and seeing that Wellington City had done more earthquake-prone building assessments than the rest of the country put together, which was pretty impressive. There were 1,100-plus of those which were designated as being earthquake-prone, and as of August, that was down to about 570-odd. Pretty close to 50 percent of those have been resolved, mostly by strengthening rather than by demolition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhat I would say is that, as I\u2019ve said, there is a peak coming up, and in Wellington, that peak is a very large peak: by 2027, of those 570-odd buildings, 305 have to be resolved. It\u2019s a very significant peak and the capacity is going to be challenged. Auckland, as we\u2019ve already heard from Julie Anne Genter, might have a lower risk, but it has three times as many earthquake-prone buildings as Wellington does\u2014at about 1,500.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe heard also from some of the provincial areas. The Manawat\u016B District, which is often looked at here, they had 68 earthquake-prone buildings, particularly in Feilding, and they made the very, very strong point that the economics of strengthening those buildings just are not there. So there are going to have to be some really hard decisions that are made about which buildings are important to retain and how those buildings are supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EArena Williams spoke about the previous Government\u2019s funding regime, but my recollection is that I don\u2019t think anybody actually got through the hoops to actually get anything. Somebody might have got close, but they hadn\u2019t actually made it, so I think it\u2019s really important to bear that in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think also that in terms of the review, there are going to be real questions about people\u2019s confidence in the assessments which are done. I mean, it\u2019s great to say, \u201CI\u2019ve got a building which is 70 percent of the new building standard, and then five minutes later, it\u2019s down to 20 percent.\u201D, and you think, \u201COh, what the heck has happened there?\u201D That\u2019s really challenging. Again, Inner City Wellington made the comment to us that if the new building standards change, effectively what that does is it changes the rating on the existing buildings, and they asked whether that is fair. They said\u2014and, again, I quote from their submission\u2014\u201CUnder the current system, there is no end point.\u201D Building hasn\u2019t gotten any less safe; it\u2019s just that the goalposts have moved, so there are some issues that really need to be thought through very, very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EJust to the use of the Order in Council to be able to extend the deadline\u2014to me, it makes absolute sense. As I said, you don\u2019t want to have the confluence of both the review going on with the legislation having maybe not been completed, because, of course, people will have to start thinking about the plans, the designs, etc., for their building. They don\u2019t just suddenly turn that on at the end of the process, and so having that time, I think, is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EFinally, in the last little bit, I\u2019d just say that in terms of the other matters, such as the Independent Qualified Persons (IQPs), we\u2019ve already heard about it clarifying the obligations, or introducing the stick, as my colleague Cameron Luxton has talked about. We did get some good submissions there about the need for better training systems, a register, and a better qualifications arrangement, because it\u2019s really not good enough at the\u00A0moment. Now, those things might have been beyond the scope of the legislation as it was, but they did\u00A0make a lot of sense, and we do commend those for further thought, and\u2014just finally to say\u2014they also raised the issue of whether only IQPs should be held responsible if something goes wrong, because they also rely, of course, on a lot of other players, whether it\u2019s the councils, whether it\u2019s the engineers, the designers, or whatever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI\u2019m delighted to get to this point. Thanks, everybody, for getting us to this point, and I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223008bc8ac4b54e07b3e418718d7304a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223008bc8ac4b54e07b3e418718d7304a0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6c2b02656f741fda711d147353a81a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6c2b02656f741fda711d147353a81a3\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. This is a really timely discussion, given the other day, when I felt that very big thump\u2014just yesterday, at 4 o\u2019clock. I was like, \u201COK, I\u2019m sitting here and I\u2019m not in my safe Tai Tokerau home.\u201D\u2014so, anyway, here we are. I guess that I wanted to draw this discussion in relation to the probably 200-plus marae in Te Tai Tokerau and the marae around here\u2014just over the road, actually\u2014and the relevance of this piece of work to our marae. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWithout the amendments we discuss today, many of our marae would have been at risk of closure and would be forced to be demolished if they had failed to meet the original deadlines. The extensions of time frames have saved various marae, but only for the next four years, and, for an unlikely cohort, the next two years. This is all the time these marae have left to somehow acquire the funds necessary for seismic upgrades; these extensions are, therefore, a temporary solution to a deeper systemic problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAt the core of this problem is something that many hap\u016B face, which is the inability to afford seismic strengthening of their marae. A marae is not a stand-alone building, but it\u2019s comprised of wharekai, wharemoe, wharepaku\u2014all of the places that make up a marae complex and a marae system. Keeping in mind that that is generalised, across differing hap\u016B, marae will consist of whare outside of those that I have just listed. When we consider the cost of seismic upgrading to even just one of these whare, it is simply unachievable for many hap\u016B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EMarae safeguard our identities, our history, our reo, our whakapapa, our tikanga, our cultural practices, and our collective memory that has passed through the generations in our magnificent whakairo that often dress many, many of our marae across the motu. They\u2019re also a place of safety during civil defence emergencies\u2014as they should be\u2014as was seen during Cyclone Gabrielle. They are a haven for wh\u0101nau from all walks of life in moments of crisis, to not only M\u0101ori but M\u0101ori mai, P\u0101keh\u0101 mai. T\u0101tou katoa, marae is your marae. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWhen we consider this and the reliance of Government on marae to feed and house our communities in these times, it is clear that Government must shift the burden of seismic upgrade financial stresses from hap\u016B and into their own hands. The Government should fully fund seismic strengthening for marae. With the rising costs and limited funding, and with little to no resource available, the finance strain on hap\u016B and their marae will leave our communities vulnerable. Hap\u016B need targeted funding initiatives, meaning partnerships with Government agencies and actual collaboration in order to achieve that result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAll of us\u2014M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori\u2014must ask ourselves what it would mean if you lost your marae. We M\u0101ori know that there are a limited number of spaces where we can be our true, authentic selves, yet marae are some of the only spaces left in the country built off stolen whenua and M\u0101ori labour. Koia, te reo, tikanga, and whakapapa endures, but I must ask those non-M\u0101ori, tauiwi, tangata Tiriti, or however you may identify: what would it mean if your marae were lost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThis bill and its amendments foster a sense of urgency for wh\u0101nau, for hap\u016B, for marae, and for the country, actually. The preservation and safety of our marae is not only critical to the enduring legacy of our whakapapa but also to our obligations as tangata whenua in providing the necessary care for our manuhiri. Our marae deserve the support needed to thrive, and M\u0101ori need to be properly resourced to meet earthquake-proofing requirements. E tautoko m\u0101rika te p\u0101ti t\u0113nei k\u014Drero. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka.  [Our party wholeheartedly supports what has been said. Thank you, Madam Speaker.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u00228d00237e4f5f43838027ca739b570061\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d00237e4f5f43838027ca739b570061\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to this bill on behalf of our party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI actually want to do something very strange and very odd from this corner of the room: I actually want to acknowledge and mihi to you, Minister Penk, for reaching out to us early. Your office did a really great job at reaching out to myself and my colleague Julie Anne Genter, as the Wellington City MPs, to brief us on some of these changes, and I really appreciated having that early notice and being communicated with about what your intentions are. Living in a city where we have such a high earthquake risk and where so many of our residents, and also our city council, are so deeply impacted by these rules, it was really nice to be consulted on that. Thank you to you and your office for consulting with us on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI also wanted to acknowledge that this legislation doesn\u2019t impact only Wellington. Yes, it has been the centre of the conversation and the centre of focus due to our vulnerability and due to the number of buildings that fall under this category that sit within our city, but it was really important to, I guess, our wider caucus to acknowledge the provinces and the small towns that are impacted by having an earthquake-prone building status. It\u2019s not just a Wellington issue, but it affects our whole country and even\u2014as my colleague Mariameno Kapa-Kingi was just saying\u2014impacts our marae. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EIt impacts quite deeply when you take a broader look at it. It\u2019s not just Wellington-centric, but I am really pleased to see the changes from a Wellington point of view, because we look around our city and we see the impact of having an earthquake-prone status on so many of our most important buildings. Our central library: you might have\u00A0seen that it has been under construction for the last few years, and that\u2019s because it\u00A0was deemed to be earthquake-prone, and within the Civic Square area here in P\u014Dneke, so many of our buildings have got that tape around them. It\u2019s a tremendous financial burden, because there was previously this expectation that we would fix those buildings at a certain time, and our city simply cannot weather that financial burden to do that critical work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EAt the same time, we acknowledge that it\u2019s really important that buildings\u2014especially those that have lots of people in them\u2014are at the highest level of safety standards. We\u2019re kind of trying to make this balance between having safe buildings that people can enter into without the fear of loss of life or of damage in the case of a major earthquake, but we\u2019re also trying to acknowledge that the financial burden for the city, if the city council owns that building or the Government owns that building, is extremely high. There is also the financial burden on residents and people on fixed incomes who live in some of these apartment buildings and who cannot weather some of the earthquake-strengthening work that is required of them. There\u2019s a lot of different things to juggle in this conversation, but I feel pretty happy at this point of the bill\u2019s passage that many of those factors have been addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI particularly wanted to echo those acknowledgments from my colleague Andy Foster, who talked about the really excellent work that Inner-City Wellington has done. For those who don\u2019t know Wellington, Inner-City Wellington is like our inner-city residents\u2019 association, and it has been doing a lot of advocacy, particularly for residents living in those buildings that are earthquake-prone who are on those fixed incomes and who can\u2019t come up with the money to strengthen their buildings. I want to particularly acknowledge Geraldine Murphy for the work that she has been doing in this space to continue to advocate for those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re happy to support this bill at this stage of its passage, but I just want to reiterate our desire to make sure that that financial burden isn\u2019t impossible or insurmountable, and we also want to acknowledge the really important role of human safety. From the briefings that we\u2019ve received around this bill, it\u2019s clear that we could look at some forms of prioritisation, and so we\u2019d be making sure that the buildings that have the most people going through them and the highest risk are prioritised in those deadlines, above some of the more random, smaller, less consequential buildings that exist out there, like some of those heritage buildings, which I have strong views on\u2014but I\u2019ll park those for another day. Thank you very much, and that\u2019s my contribution. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00227baf67dd323b4fc5b1aae3c2210db81f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227baf67dd323b4fc5b1aae3c2210db81f\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019m very privileged to rise and speak on this bill, and I\u2019d just like to acknowledge that it\u2019s great that common sense has broken out on the other side of the House and they\u2019ve finally seen the light and decided to support this bill. Thank you\u2014I acknowledge it. [Interruption] There you go, they still can\u2019t acknowledge that maybe we\u2019ve got a good idea over here that they can support, but it\u2019s great. Thank you and I appreciate it, and it has been a very collegial select committee on this one, to be fair. We\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de8cbf09d3a747a684ce2f0a1c1d8064\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fdadc6059444febbd3a1db641557d9c\u0022\u003EHon Chris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: You or us? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226970414bbf32456190c7af6331423e26\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Well, we\u2019ll take that\u2014as long as we\u2019re picking the right pieces of the legislation to be right on, that\u2019s just fine by me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f828a827da04abf97faa4edbb658186\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just also clarify that the clock hasn\u2019t stopped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4f4a34e8fc6430a909326c858cd01a0\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019m sure you will all have heard enough of me by the end of that, anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003ELook, moving on, at the select committee\u2014look, it\u2019s a really tricky and delicate area, this, and it\u2019s important that we get this right. It\u2019s a serious issue around earthquake-safe buildings, and so forth. I think we\u2019re doing the right thing by giving the full review time to actually progress, so that\u2019s what this is all about. It\u2019s just delaying and giving people time. We\u2019ve got to make sure we don\u2019t just keep kicking the can down the road, and I think the Minister has acknowledged that. It\u2019s four years, with a potential of having two. We want to go and really focus on trying to solve this as quickly as possible, but we want to make the rules fair for people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EJust to acknowledge: at the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, we had 23 written submissions, and nine submitters came in and gave oral submissions. The vast majority were in support of what we\u2019re doing. There were one or two who spoke against, but, overall, people could see that this needs to be done. It\u2019s a really difficult area, as people have acknowledged, because you\u2019re balancing off that risk/return trade-off in going forward about how much you spend to upgrade buildings and the potential loss of life. That\u2019s important work that needs to be done, going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EAs a farmer, I thought there was one part of the bill that I would just mention because I think it\u2019s quite appropriate, actually. There is a part of the bill which removes the obligation on a dam owner\u2014which a few of us are, here in the rural sector\u2014to display a copy of the dam compliance certificate in a prominent place on the dam while retaining requirements for the certificate are to be supplied to the relevant regional authority to update them, and so forth. Maybe not every dam has got a maimai on it, like ours has, where we are able to go in and deal with the ducks that happen to fly in the wrong place at the right time of year\u2014for those of us who enjoy a bit of duck hunting. I just think that that\u2019s a very common-sense approach, because otherwise, if you did not have that sort of structure, you would not have anywhere to display it. So, on that note, I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7253ce80c954aff9cf0d3b7d67971fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7253ce80c954aff9cf0d3b7d67971fc\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We have a responsibility as a Government to keep people safe, and in speaking about the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, that\u2019s ultimately what it comes down to\u2014it\u2019s about keeping people safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI\u2019m the MP for Christchurch East, which is often referred to as the mighty Christchurch East, not just by myself, but by at least everybody who lives in it. I\u2019ve also been a resident in Christchurch since 1977, which was, coincidentally, the same year that Winston Peters entered this building\u2014so it\u2019s a lifetime for me\u2014but I also lived in Christchurch in 2011, during the Christchurch earthquakes. We had a lot of earthquakes in Christchurch, but we had one particular earthquake that was incredibly strong, incredibly powerful, and, ultimately, had a devastating effect on our city and on the lives of a number of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe law that this amendment is pushing out was in response to the Christchurch earthquakes. It was a law from the lessons that we learnt from the Christchurch earthquakes, and I think it\u2019s really important that we don\u2019t lose those lessons and miss, ultimately, what\u00A0we\u00A0learnt from those earthquakes. Our solution when we were in Government was the\u00A0Residential Earthquake-Prone Building Financial Assistance Scheme\u2014which this Government cancelled\u2014and, under Labour, owner-occupiers of units and apartments living in earthquake-prone buildings could apply for financial support to fix their homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIf we\u2019re talking about buildings and we\u2019re talking about the impact that buildings that\u00A0aren\u2019t compliant with the building code can have, in Christchurch, that was the loss of 185 lives, and what we need to remember is that 115 of those lives\u2014115 people\u2014died in one building alone. The collapse of one building killed 115 people. Now, an earlier member compared road deaths, or deaths on our roads in New Zealand, to the loss of life in earthquakes, as if to say\u2014well, entirely to say that in comparison, more people die on the road than die in earthquakes, but I think that doesn\u2019t take seriously enough our role in this place to keep people safe. We can\u2019t just say, \u201COh, because more people die on the road, we can do less to keep people safe in buildings.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EEveryone who was in Christchurch on 22 February 2011 remembers where they were, because where you were mattered. It literally became the difference between life and death. I was in my office that day, but there were some people who weren\u2019t at work because they worked in other businesses, because the industry that I worked in was full of people who worked freelance\u2014who were contractors. Because they were rostered on to work in other buildings that day, they didn\u2019t live; they died. They died because the buildings they were in weren\u2019t compliant with regulations. They weren\u2019t safe buildings, and what we\u2019re talking about with amending this bill is pushing out the horizon for people to make buildings safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EOne of those people was a guy called Andrew Bishop. He was 33. He was an awesome guy. Another of those people was 21-year-old Isaac Thompson, who had so much potential and was such a hard worker, so focused and so passionate about his craft. Ordinarily, he would have worked with our team, but that day, he didn\u2019t. On that day, he worked in the CTV Building, and on that day, as a result of that building and that building\u2019s lack of strength and that building\u2019s collapse, he lost his life. They\u2019re not here any more. Andrew is not here. Isaac is not here. Hundreds of people are not here because of the building they were in\u2014simple as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s pretty hard to stand up and suggest that we should just push the horizon out and that we should just say, \u201CTake the time you need to make the building safe.\u201D I think any support that we can give for this bill and for this amendment to stretch that time line out really has to be done with us being fully conscious of what that means for the people who are in those buildings. The reality is that a lot of the time, the people in those buildings have no idea\u2014they have absolutely no idea of the risk that they\u2019re taking or of the vulnerability of those buildings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe tentative\u2014and very tentative\u2014support for this bill really comes with the plea to know what you are doing, to really understand that the difference between four years and six years is huge, to take responsibility for those implications, and to not lose the speed that should be given to this. We\u2019ve all seen the speed that things can be done with\u2014bad things\u2014when this Government sets their minds to it. They can railroad things through. How come this isn\u2019t being given the same priority? It is, instead, being slowed down, pushed out, and given a more distant horizon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s disappointing to see the priorities when you look at legislation like this being used to slow things down and other legislation being rushed through to move things at pace. Based on my experience of living in Christchurch through the earthquakes and based on the really, really tragic loss of life that we saw in Christchurch\u2014the really, really good people being lost simply because of the buildings they were in\u2014and given, as another member has spoken of, the fact that the city that we\u2019re standing in today moved just this week\u2014approximately 24 hours ago\u2014I think it\u2019s really important that the full implications of what this legislation is proposing are understood and that it is not seen as an excuse to slow the process of making buildings safe and, ultimately, of saving lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00222807e81d847444d78877e42ca8ce835d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222807e81d847444d78877e42ca8ce835d\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Just acknowledging the prior contributor\u2014Reuben Davidson\u2014for his heartfelt and genuine contribution on that, and he did make some really valid points in what he\u2019s been saying. I\u2019m just acknowledging what he had to say there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EFor us on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, we heard from 23 submitters on this piece of legislation. It was not a huge amount, but it was still really vital and important, and the majority of the submitters spoke in favour of the bill for particular reasons in one way or another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EWe, as a committee, did make two recommendations back to the Minister for Building and Construction that we thought would strengthen the bill\u2014if you\u2019ll pardon the pun\u2014and I really want to highlight what those two are, because I don\u2019t feel like they\u2019ve been canvassed a huge amount. Clause 17, inserts new section 133AMC, which is an amendment to make it clearer that a further deadline extension by Order in Council would apply both to deadlines originally extended by four years as well as to earthquake-prone building notices issued following commencement of the amendment Act. It\u2019s quite technical, but the other one is clause 26, which is inserting a new section 238. It says that this should be amended to refer to stand-alone building consent authorities, rather than territorial authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003ENow, these may have been small amendments made by the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, but it\u2019s been really clear across the discussion on this bill this afternoon that the support given from this side and from the other side is that they have listened to the submitters that gave those 23 submissions to the select committee. They understand the rationale behind the Minister\u2019s obligations and why he\u2019s bringing this bill to the House, and\u00A0why it\u2019s really vitally important that we progress this legislation further down the track to continue the progress of this legislation and why it plays such a vital role in our country. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8056070616f4dc9b11616ed1ba497bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8056070616f4dc9b11616ed1ba497bd\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As members have heard, there are really torn emotions on this side of the House about this bill because there is a real concern about how serious it is to delay time frames when lives are at stake. I totally accept that many of the people who are struggling the most are living in houses and apartments because, actually, apartments are affordable, and so it is a very real issue that people are vulnerable to the cost of improving these properties as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really proud of Labour for having put its money where its mouth was. In the scheme that it put forward, it was prepared to spend money on the situation, and that, unfortunately, is no longer an option available. What we have instead is an extended time period, and we are tentatively supporting that because there is a balancing act, but I was very moved by my colleague Reuben Davidson\u2019s speech, and it is worth remembering that very, very real cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIt is really important to remember what Arena Williams said about her concern that the second deadline after the four years would be extended out further. I also recall the Minister for Building and Construction saying that he had made sure that that second two years was really something that was not just a blanket thing that would happen but that he was prepared to hold his own feet to the fire. Well, I pretty much could assure him that Arena Williams will do that job for him at his invitation. She has got\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aff1a341336403d886b0eb411b19531\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: With or without an invitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234e23fcfe18d482ea30915d388eac2d4\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, without the invitation, she would too. That is the job of the Opposition and that will be happening, and it couldn\u2019t be on a more important kind of\u00A0issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI do appreciate that there is a review that\u2019s going to take place and that there are issues around the kind of increasing standard as we improve buildings, but I also just wanted to talk for a minute about something that is related, albeit please indulge me. That was the Grenfell Tower issue, and I recently listened to a podcast about that review and how serious the issues were and how they weren\u2019t really dealt with. It became institutionally acceptable to actually defraud about the risk of that product, and I am very mindful that it\u2019s really easy to go to sleep about these issues because they seem a long way out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIn that case, people paid a huge price for the kind of group mentality that can sometimes happen on issues like this. That was the industry faking tests about the quality of the product, and people paid a price for that that was incredibly serious. The podcast that I was listening to was fairly compelling on the fact that some of the mentality that went into the\u00A0way that people were using those products in those situations came from a real belief that people were worth less because they were renting and they were poor, and so there\u2019s always that risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI appreciate that the cost of this is very real to people and we\u2019ve got to work with them to build up these standards, but there is a balance included. This side of the House has decided to support this, but very much on the basis of the goodwill to make sure that there is a good-faith response to this and that we use the time wisely. I urge the officials who are involved to use their time wisely because time is very important in this country, which shakes. Thank you. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00221175edbfa0a843fba3c5df11da1e20f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221175edbfa0a843fba3c5df11da1e20f6\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill in the second reading. This is an important bill and a very practical one, and I want to take it from two perspectives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EI have a lot of lived experience in this. A previous speaker spoke about his experience in 2011. I was still in the Territorials\u2014in the army\u2014at that time. I was part of the earthquake response, and I led a trauma research team in the Pyne Gould building at the time. During continuous aftershocks, I stood in that building, clutching a vial of ketamine and a saw, ready to crawl through the building to assist some of the people who were stuck in that building. Me and my team stayed there until the last survivor was pulled out in the\u00A0afternoon the following day, and that experience has deeply affected me on many levels. I don\u2019t feel the same about the shaking of a truck going past as many people might do, and I know that there are thousands of people in Christchurch that are just like me who can\u2019t bear the thought of earthquakes and what might happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EI know that any discussion about this is deeply emotional to people in Christchurch, because it\u2019s nearly 14 years, but it\u2019s just like it was yesterday. It is important that we keep people safe. Those buildings that I witnessed up close did not keep people safe, and it was a huge tragedy. The fact that we\u2019ve got thousands of buildings that are now deemed to be unsafe because of the codes is concerning. However, those buildings have stood through quite a few shakes already, and so I think that that doesn\u2019t take away all risk, but there is some piece of mind. Most of the buildings in Christchurch that were problematic have gone, and we need to acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EFrom the other side of things, I was the deputy chair of the New Zealand Medical Association. We had to wind up that organisation because we had owned a heritage building on The Terrace that was at about 15 percent of code, and when we went through the process to redevelop that building and had the business case for it, it looked like we could afford it. However, when the project started, inevitably there were foundation issues that pushed out\u00A0the costs, and we didn\u2019t achieve the business that we thought we would afterwards. As a result, the New Zealand Medical Association, which had started in the 1880s and was over 130 years old\u2014we had to wind that up. We were able to sell off one of our other assets, which was the New Zealand Medical Journal, and thanks to the Pasifika Medical Association, which bought it for $2, that continues on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EThere are real issues with heritage buildings and organisations throughout the country, and this has real-world economic implications of trying to work through a business case to redevelop things, with uncertainty in the future. I\u2019m grateful to the Minister and for the work that the officials will be doing to progress this pragmatic thing, and I\u2019m also mindful of the safety element of it. I know that the Minister and the officials will be keeping that in mind and taking care with this, and so I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8be868cf1134fa0af59faf4f1c4b104\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8be868cf1134fa0af59faf4f1c4b104\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s been a thoughtful afternoon, listening to the different arguments and the different opinions but also the lived experiences, and I just want to acknowledge that in terms of my colleagues from both sides of the House who have lived experiences of earthquakes and other things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWe live in the Shaky Isles. I live in Taranaki, and\u2014even though this is slightly off-piste\u2014it\u2019s part of that Ring of Fire that we live under. Everyone assumes that Taranaki is this dormant cone that erupted the last time in 1690, or something like that, but, actually, a report came out two years ago that it has a 50 percent chance of erupting within the next 50\u00A0years. We\u2019re, again, in a position where we live in the Shaky Isles and we live on the Ring of Fire, and so we have to be prepared and have to expect these things. We don\u2019t want them. We live in the most beautiful part of the world, but with that comes just a few shakes and a few volcanic situations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we need to thoughtfully\u2014and I\u2019m glad that it\u2019s in a bipartisan way today\u2014look at how we move this forward to ensure that we get it right. We want to argue from this side of the House that we need to, you know, hurry up and keep moving faster, because, as my colleague Reuben Davidson said, it\u2019s a matter of life or death in many ways. We sit in this building, which is one of the safer buildings in Wellington, and I sometimes look up there\u2014and maybe one doesn\u2019t think so\u2014but in the 1990s, this building was strengthened. For those who go into the basement and see the big, ginormous rubber, um\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3214e33177d4517be92843605765b08\u0022\u003EHon Chris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: Base isolators?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227900478d34374c99a8fcf1d5a4be9398\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Base isolators. I was going to say \u201Cstoppers\u201D, but base isolators\u2014thank you very much. As a Government, I think it was about $75 million that was spent. I mean, I know it included some refurbishment work as well, but it was around the strengthening of these buildings, and if we think about the price, we can think what it would cost today. We\u2019re happy to sit inside these buildings and feel kind of mostly safe, but if you look around the streets of Wellington, there are more than 800 buildings within a short walk or drive from here which are actually earthquake-prone and need remediation work done. How do we actually support that mahi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI think, for us, we\u2019ve had some concerns and we\u2019ve looked at the select committee process and listened really carefully to the arguments that were made. We were listening to councils and the key stakeholders, and, of course, for the councils, it\u2019s their role to ensure that the buildings and their people are protected and well looked after. It is disappointing, as has been made clear by my colleagues, that there were things and processes that we had in place when we were in Government that have been overturned and now we\u2019re in this position. That\u2019s why I think we need to proceed with caution, but we none the less need to proceed because not only is it the harrowing stories of people who have been through the trauma of major earthquakes but it\u2019s around looking to the future and asking how we prevent loss of life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAgain, as my colleague Reuben Davidson has said, it can\u2019t be compared with road safety. It can\u2019t be compared with other things, because it\u2019s not as simple as having a seat belt. It\u2019s actually some major structural work, and people often who have been brought into buildings who weren\u2019t aware of it at the time, but it\u2019s also in terms of building owners and what that looks like for them. So we\u2019re here and we\u2019re looking at whether we can find a way to speed this up but also at whether we can find a way where there is\u2014we understand there\u2019s costs involved, and there must be. We must take responsibility to ensure not only that councils have the tools and the mechanisms but that we are the enablers who can, not necessarily get out of the way, but actually ensure that we build good legislation and good bills that actually will ensure the safety, the protection and, but also the futures for people within our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWe live on the Shaky Isles. We live with the beautiful Pacific Ocean and, of course, the Indo-Australian tectonic plate\u2014where they meet. Just this weekend, I had the privilege of being down on the West Coast of the South Island, and the sea\u2014fun fact, but I\u2019m sure we all know that the ranges are growing every year. They grow because of those tectonic plates that are connected there, but I\u2019d better not\u2014I did fail geography, but that\u2019s another story. We cautiously support this, and I think getting to the committee stage is going to be a good space for us to debate and thrash some of these concepts and ideas out, and, again, come to a bipartisan agreement on which we can move forward feeling comfortable, together. We support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2319006ad3c41f8a84de558325463ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2319006ad3c41f8a84de558325463ce\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m proud to stand in support of the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill in this second reading. As a Christchurch-based MP, it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge those that lost their lives in the Christchurch earthquakes back in 2011, and I do just want to acknowledge the work that my colleague Dr Vanessa Weenink did in the immediate aftermath to help those who were so desperately in need of assistance. Also as a Christchurch-based MP, I\u2019m well aware of the effects that having an earthquake-damaged house can have on someone\u2019s mental health and also their physical health as they struggle to get it repaired and remediated. It\u2019s one of the most common issues that I have coming through my electorate office door, and I\u2019m there to help any constituents with those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI do just want to point out that the aim of earthquake-prone building legislation was to reduce the risk to life and safety by requiring that New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable buildings during a moderate earthquake be remedied within set time frames. I also do want to just mention that there has been talk about urgency and the need of urgency, and I totally agree with people across the House that we need to move with urgency around some of these solutions. That is why we have brought forward the review of the earthquake-prone building system that was scheduled to take place in 2027. We have brought that forward to make sure that we can do this in a timely manner, but it is one of the reasons why we do need to extend the deadlines out, because, of course, there\u2019s no point doing a review after a deadline has already passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI also just want to acknowledge some of the great work that goes on at the University of Canterbury\u2014which, of course, makes up a big part of my electorate of Ilam\u2014and the work of the structural engineers of the university and the laboratory they have there to work out best ways of construction. It\u2019s always very interesting to see what technology they\u2019re coming up and the benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just homes that have been affected by this legislation; it\u2019s also shops, and we\u2019ve also heard about maraes, churches, and schools\u2014it\u2019s any building, really. This bill will alleviate the stress and sleepless nights as people struggle to get their building back in shape, whether it be their house or whether it be their place of work. Some of these repairs have turned out to be far more complex than initially thought, and we\u2019ve heard about heritage buildings. That has left people with damaged properties that remain uninhabitable and underutilised, and the lack of any clarity has perpetuated the cycles of distress, which is contributing to the slower recovery of places like Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI do just want to acknowledge the Minister for Building and Construction for his work on this legislation, and also around other regulations he\u2019s put in place in building to really make sure that we can build back stronger. So I therefore am glad to be able to support this bill, as the last speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00224d9cf61a37f946b2b4bf679a69bdadf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d9cf61a37f946b2b4bf679a69bdadf3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I put the question, I would like\u00A0to\u00A0commend the Minister for Building and Construction for listening to the speeches of other members. It is not required for Ministers to remain present for all business in their names. Often, Ministers need to leave to attend other matters, and that is accepted. On the other hand, having the Minister stay for the speeches of other members does add to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002234867a101f8d4889985fa946fef71206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234867a101f8d4889985fa946fef71206\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage next sitting day. Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House will resume at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f1210981db9e4a92b121f972584da64b\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b52911b8c214384b61ef3d4c73e473a\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002253355f9b195f4985ba291e42d1e0e0dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253355f9b195f4985ba291e42d1e0e0dc\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022967404ed2c5945b68fe34dbadac6b584\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7229cc9a88741f281197e2b19f478d8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAgriculture is the backbone of New Zealand\u2019s economy and a contributor to the world economy. It will play an important role in achieving the Government\u2019s goal of doubling the value of exports over the next decade. In the year 31 March 2024, the food and fibre sector accounted for 80.9 percent of New Zealand\u2019s merchandise exports. Over the last 10 years, food and fibre exports have grown by an average of 3.6 percent per year, whereas other elements of export growth have only grown by 1.6\u00A0percent. One in seven New Zealanders work in the food and fibre sector, and that figure increases to one in four in some of our regional economies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOur relationships with our trading partners are linked to the economy and the prosperity of this country, and that\u2019s why this bill exists. The agricultural sector is critical to meeting our economic, trade, and climate goals. However, to do so effectively, that sector must adopt, and adapt to, the evolving global expectations. New Zealand remains committed to its international climate obligations, which, I wish to emphasise, this bill is consistent with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhile we have committed to repealing legislation that imposes emissions trading scheme (ETS) obligations on agricultural activities, we have also committed to replacing it with a fair and sustainable pricing system outside of the ETS by 2030 to ensure that we do not send production or jobs overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe Climate Change Response Act currently requires agricultural processors to pay for fertiliser and livestock emissions from 1 January 2025. Under the current legislation, animal farmers would begin reporting on their on-farm emissions from 1 January 2026 and paying for those emissions from 1 January 2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EEconomic modelling commissioned by officials suggests that requiring agricultural processors to pay for their emissions under the emissions trading scheme would have a negative impact on both farm production and revenue. If agricultural processors are required to pay for on-farm emissions, this could lead to a trickle-down of costs directly to farmers, regardless of their emissions efficiency rates. The requirements for farmers to report and pay for their emissions would likely require up to 100,000 animal farmers to be registered and begin reporting and paying for those emissions under the emissions trading scheme. This would have disproportionate adverse impacts on small farmers and would significantly increase the number of participants in that scheme, which could disrupt the operations of the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn summary, the current system would result in additional administrative implementation and compliance costs to our domestic agricultural sector. I want to be really clear here: this Government will not shut down our productive sectors and shift production overseas, and this bill presents an opportunity for a new pathway forward. It will pave the way for us to develop a fair and sustainable pricing system for agriculture that reduces emissions without sending production offshore to farmers who are less emissions efficient than here in New Zealand. Not only that, but this bill will support our farmers and our rural communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn July, the Government launched its climate change strategy, a plan aimed at reducing the impacts of climate change and preparing for its future impacts. The climate change strategy has five key pillars: infrastructure that is resilient, communities that are well prepared, credible markets, clean and efficient and abundant energy, world-leading climate innovation that boosts our economy, and nature-based solutions that address climate change. I would like to emphasise the importance of the fourth pillar\u2014having world-leading climate innovation that boosts the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis Government has prioritised developing tools and technologies that work for New Zealand\u2019s pasture-based systems. Examples of key policies and initiatives to achieve this were included in the second emissions reduction plan (ERP2) discussion document and include accelerating the development of mitigation tools and technologies to reduce on-farm emissions, with the Government also partnering with the private sector with $400\u00A0million of investment, fit-for-purpose regulatory pathways for mitigation technologies, an independent review of the biogenic methane science target, and standardised methodologies for developing measurement of on-farm emissions by 2025. It is clear that this Government is taking the right approach to reduce agricultural emissions by working with the sector and not against them, as we will continue to grow our efforts and grow our economy to double exports and to meet our climate goals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EDespite the urgency to amend the Climate Change Response Act by 1 January 2025, we have had a rigorous four-month select committee process that scrutinised this bill. I want to acknowledge my ministerial colleague the Hon Todd McClay, Minister of Agriculture, who I have worked very closely with on this bill, alongside officials from both of our joint\u00A0agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI would also like to thank members across the House who are part of the Primary Production Committee. Thank you for your work in considering this bill and thank you for the contributions that you have made as part of that. It is important to hear and consider the feedback from the sector, organisations, and the wider public. I would like to acknowledge the Opposition\u2019s feedback provided in the select committee report on the bill, which included the importance and the impact of climate change, fairness, and equity concerns with other sectors of the economy\u2014and while not perfect, the New Zealand ETS is the only current tool for pricing emissions. Despite these concerns, I want to reiterate the Government\u2019s commitment to establishing a fair and sustainable pricing system for agriculture outside of the New Zealand ETS by 2030.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis system will ensure domestic production and jobs remain in New Zealand rather than being sent overseas. Members of the select committee listened to the views on this bill, receiving submissions from groups, organisations, and individuals across New Zealand. The committee received 581 submissions and 26 oral submissions during this consultation process. Of these total submissions, approximately two-thirds were supportive of this bill, with the remainder one-third being against the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAgriculture must play its part, and it will. As outlined in the second emissions reduction plan, to get the desired impact, the tools to reduce emissions must come before pricing, not the other way around. These tools must be in the hands of our producers so they can utilise them to adapt and to remain profitable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAfter careful consideration of the submissions and the advice from officials, the Primary Production Committee recommended by majority that this bill be passed without amendment. Submissions did not identify any unintended consequences, administrative errors, or inconsistencies with the Government\u2019s policy intent that requires amendment. This bill as drafted gives effect to the Government\u2019s objectives to remove agriculture from the New Zealand ETS and has been factored into the Government\u2019s wider emissions reduction strategy, including consideration of the second emissions reduction plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAs I have previously announced, this bill supports the Government\u2019s broader plan to keep agriculture out of the New Zealand emissions trading scheme. This bill will enable us to pave a new way forward, working alongside the sector, iwi M\u0101ori, and the public to fairly and sustainably manage agricultural emissions. Mitigation technology and this Government\u2019s focus on getting the tools into the hands of the farmers will play a key part in this. Accordingly, I commend this bill to the House, and I look forward to the next stage of debating this bill in the committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228e50c751cd814ce6a903828b316c3dff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e50c751cd814ce6a903828b316c3dff\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002246c22ef4537f46b3815f62dba8adf0a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246c22ef4537f46b3815f62dba8adf0a5\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just quiet, for a moment. [Drops a can] That\u2019s the sound of the can being kicked down the road. Madam\u00A0Deputy Speaker, it is good to have someone who knows something about this in the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn 1992, a National Government committed to a Kyoto Protocol, an international movement to reduce emissions. A National Government, in 2015, reiterated its commitment to emissions reduction, at Paris. Through that period, the National Government did nothing to implement any progress in the area where 50 percent of our emissions come from: agriculture. We tried, in 2000, in a Labour Government. We came in and we talked about a\u00A0carbon tax. That was rejected by farmers\u2014called a \u201Cfart tax\u201D\u2014and so we moved on to create an emissions trading scheme (ETS) as the next best option. It was accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe National Government of the day\u2014actually, it was the Opposition of the day\u2014said,\u00A0\u201CWe\u2019re going to get rid of this.\u201D When they got in, in 2009, they kept it in place because it was the only tool that we had to meet our international obligations, to provide some market signals for our economy and participants in our economy to reduce our emissions over time, because if we don\u2019t, we\u2019re going to be writing out cheques for billions of dollars under the Kyoto and the Paris accords.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe then said to farming sectors, when we came in in 2017, \u201CWe\u2019ve got to do something here. We need a backstop, because, ultimately, the ETS is all we have, and if we can\u2019t come up with an alternative, then agriculture must come in.\u201D\u2014even though the concession for agriculture was 95\u00A0percent discount; so, effectively, facing a 5 percent impost on the methane and other emissions from the agricultural system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI know how important the primary sectors are to our economy. In fact, if you looked at the growth in our period of Government from 2017 to 2023, it was spectacular even through COVID, and we\u2019re proud of that, but we still faced this dilemma of how we address agricultural emissions. So we said to agricultural leaders, \u201CLook, we don\u2019t want to put you into the ETS. If you can come up with a better scheme, then we\u2019ll run with that.\u201D We gave them the best part of four years. I was a little cynical; the Prime Minister was very ambitious. Lots of other people were a bit cynical as well, because agricultural leaders have failed to make the hard decisions many, many times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1e4b47bd100470da5a99b89770a3186\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: They did, and you turned them down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b329d240ca204880a75c41142eb83456\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Because they have a legal obligation to represent their sectors\u2014the dry stock sector that the Minister\u2019s representing has a different way of farming from the dairy sector. That clash between who is emitting and who has the greatest opportunity to reduce was something that those leaders couldn\u2019t resolve. They came back to the Government with most of the proposals, but some of the hard ones weren\u2019t resolved. We went back to them and said, \u201CLook, we\u2019re going to have to go back and work through some of these hard issues.\u201D We did not want to put them into the ETS, but it\u2019s a necessary backstop. We failed with He Waka Eke Noa\u2014the Government\u2019s got rid of it. Now they\u2019re going to take away the ETS. The question is: what are they going to do next?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve just come from a Rural Leaders presentation, where Nuffield scholars\u2014these are the brightest, most ambitious young rural leaders in this country\u2014go out around the world. One of the presentations that came back was pretty blunt: \u201CThe systems that we have used to get us to where we are will not be the ones that have to take us to where we need to be.\u201D That\u2019s challenging, and I could see the unease among rural leaders in that room, but if we don\u2019t do it, we will fail, because we don\u2019t have the scale of South America or the US or other places. Some will say, \u201COh, we\u2019ll have GE technology available.\u201D Well, we might or might not, and we need to see where the real, proven benefits of that genetic engineering come to play for a country that relies on the production of food for its existence\u2014and that\u2019s us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a member on the other side there who sat on the board of Fonterra, our biggest and most important company. Their customer of over 100 years, Nestl\u00E9, has said to them\u2014and actually invested in a zero-carbon dairy farm in the North Island; working through that. I applaud both Nestl\u00E9 and Fonterra for investing in it. In fact, Nestl\u00E9 is investing 1.2 billion Swiss francs in initiatives to reduce emissions from agriculture systems, because they have said that they will aim to source 50\u00A0percent of their ingredients through regenerative agriculture methods by 2030. They have an ambitious goal. They are our biggest single customer of our biggest single company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EHow are we going to do it? The Minister said, \u201COh, we\u2019re not going to make farmers do anything until we\u2019ve got the tools.\u201D Well, we actually do have the ability to reduce our emissions now: better pasture species, better genetic selection\u2014without GE\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ce547f2fb174b8ba291fb5bcab3065f\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: GE? He\u2019s going to support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ea4063fd3384b5fb498b6a74ff5a460\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, while that member goes on, can I say that changing farming systems will reduce emissions. We\u2019ve seen huge progress made in the dry stock sector. The dairy sector has to make some progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220981131b05374b538718d437876a5e1c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229272a2820ec34d6e933f62b21d8934e1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: If they don\u2019t, Nestl\u00E9 will buy from other customers; from other suppliers. The ex-Fonterra member says, \u201COh, no, they\u2019ll always come and buy from us.\u201D We produce about 2.5 percent of total dairy production across the globe. The US is ramping up its exports, South America is becoming more efficient, and Ireland is certainly ramping up too. We are going to face some severe competition into the future, and the question is: where will we be positioned? Well, Nestl\u00E9 will say, \u201CIf you don\u2019t meet these emissions reductions goals, we\u2019re not going to buy from you.\u201D There are many other customers, because the corporate obligations of those customers is to reduce emissions through all their supply chain. Fonterra have been out around the country talking about scope 3 emissions\u2014that is, all the emissions from a farming system in our country will be accounted for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe members on that side have been complaining about the impost on farmers of having to record more and do more. That is the world in which we operate now\u2014that is the reality. If you weren\u2019t at the Nuffield presentation just half an hour ago, you\u2019ve missed a few clear messages from ambitious rural leaders who\u2019ve been out around the world and are coming back. One of them was that we need to embrace GE carefully, to look at the opportunities into the future. I accept that. Those succession issues\u2014that is, how we\u2019re going to transfer farms to the next generation. But the idiots on that side of the House are going to open the door, are going to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1cd08eab683483fbacd2701fbd65fd5\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c7ec4890112464db042fe0159235418\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f17d8404abb4621a893abf6be2b06da\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough. That\u2019s noisy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b857c67bad34493c809c2b9aaf584b72\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say: because opening the door to foreign investment in farmland will destroy opportunities for future generations of New Zealand farmers, and that\u2019s what is being considered on that side of the House, supported by Federated Farmers. [Interruption] No, no, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I come back to this: be careful what you ask for. There may be farmers and farming leaders who think that removing agriculture from the ETS without any alternative plan to incentivise and assist farmers to make the transition will leave us up a cul-de-sac. I fear that, as we see around the globe the climatic events\u2014be it in Spain, be it fires\u2014where the consumers and the voters are demanding more action from Governments, we\u2019ll be caught in the crossfire between consumers who demand action to reduce emissions and us desperately needing to sell what are low-emissions products\u2014I absolutely accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAs Neal Wallace, who travelled around the country\u2014paid for by the agricultural sector. He came back and wrote 30 articles\u2014and read them carefully, because he has said, \u201CThe speed in which the world is changing makes it more crucial than ever that New\u00A0Zealand farmers have an eye on international market trends.\u201D Those market trends that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c86f45ddf5464f4e846a6f4c8bf8cec1\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: We do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbc7805f93f347e199888a88c6ffed28\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: No, that member doesn\u2019t. Can I say: the market trends are for decarbonisation. They\u2019re also around biodiversity, and the recent moves by the Government to remove obligations to acknowledge, to identify, and then promote biodiversity on farm\u2014those incentives have been taken away. There\u2019ll be some short-term celebration. The Minister talks the talk, but when this bill goes through, the absence of a clear alternative to give market signals to farmers to reduce their emissions, to get money to help them make that transition, will mean that our country, our economy, is at huge risk from this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u002248981934a9ba44b3a4cb0dabd304c81d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248981934a9ba44b3a4cb0dabd304c81d\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Saying that one believes in climate change and then doing all the things that make climate change worse has the same effect as denying that climate change exists in the first place. That is what this Government is doing with bill after bill after bill. They are behaving like a Government that does not believe in climate change. The words are hollow; the words are as hollow and gaseous as the superheating gas methane. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThat superheating gas methane is one of the most potent greenhouse gases produced by human activities, along with nitrous oxide. Nitrous oxide from fertiliser and manure is about 300 times more potent as a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, and methane is about 27 times more potent over a 100-year period. These gases are vital in us solving the global existential challenge of climate change. That is why we seek to address them on a planetary scale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWe seek to accept the existential threat of climate change, which is a threat not just to us as a nation, not just to us as a producer, a food producer\u2014because let\u2019s remember, farmers are on the front line of the effects of climate change: the extreme weather events, the droughts, the floods, the forest fires. These are things that hit people in the rural sector, in the productive sector, as much as anybody, as much as they hit people in the Pacific Islands. They hit people who are producing food, not just here in New Zealand but all over the world. This is a planetary existential threat, and it is seen as the biggest single threat to the ability of human beings to feed themselves over the coming century. This is a classic example of a Government that is in denial of the need to address that fundamental planetary problem of climate change. This legislation does exactly that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhen we hear that the Government is a backer of farmers, that they\u2019re not going to leave farmers high and dry, in fact, what this legislation does is it does a big \u201Cstuff you\u201D to all of the farmers who are doing all of the things to reduce their emissions. We know there are many of them in this country doing inspiring and innovative work to reduce their own carbon dioxide emissions and their own methane emissions and their nitrous oxide emissions. It\u2019s one thing to say that we\u2019re not even going to account for all those efforts; this legislation actually is literally not going to look any more to see where the emissions are coming from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESince 2011, New Zealand has kept a track of the main sources of greenhouse gas emissions. This legislation takes away the requirement for processes to monitor and report the agricultural emissions under the emissions trading scheme. We\u2019re not even going to look and see how things are going. The dairy farmer who presented to us from the Waikato, a guy farming 300 cows, who has eliminated synthetic nitrogen fertiliser from his production system and has cut his emissions by 25 percent, has done that unacknowledged. This legislation is saying to all those farmers who are doing that\u2014who are making those breakthroughs\u2014\u201CWe don\u2019t care. You\u2019re not going to get any benefit for that. You\u2019re not going to get any acknowledgement for it. We\u2019re not even going to keep a track of the emissions cuts that you are achieving.\u201D This Government is saying we do not care about those farmers making those breakthroughs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIn terms of fairness, we live in a country where every other sector pays for its emissions under the emissions trading scheme. This is an agreement that was an across-Government agreement between the two legacy parties, between Labour and National, that the means by which we would deal with climate change was through the emissions trading scheme. Now, how is it that it functions if half of our total emissions are not even accounted for in the emissions trading scheme. How is it going to function? This is, essentially, another example of failing to seize the nettle on the greatest challenge that not only the world faces but that New Zealand faces in our agricultural production\u2014yet again, kicking the can, as my colleague alongside me, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, said. That is what it is. It\u2019s saying we are not going to deal with this challenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be clear that in terms of the tools that are available to farmers, there are many tools available to farmers now. Most of them are to do with breeding and feeding and land use. Most of them are to do with how we do production systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254226d06b0be4d29a6d2748a6cc0dda1\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: And we\u2019re doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e054665cce5649bdb940e8cfb78f9fe6\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: And why don\u2019t you keep a track of the achievements you\u2019re making? This legislation explicitly takes away the accounting of where the emissions cuts are coming from. They are not making any distinction between that farmer who is producing a kilo of milk solids with far fewer emissions and the farmer who\u2019s producing it with a lot of emissions. If you don\u2019t account for it, if you don\u2019t look, if you don\u2019t count, you cannot measure the benefit. You cannot amplify the successes of those farmers who are making farm-gate profits through fewer emissions, who are decoupling the value of their production from the catastrophic impacts of climate change, for the good of the whole planet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhat about the fact that half of our emissions come from agriculture, but a full half of those come from only one sector: the dairy sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae67c60a71274828ae4e425d36f70f84\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ed8523cb3b64a09bc32d720c82c19fc\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, let\u2019s be honest about this. I\u2019m going to put viticulture and horticulture and fruit and vegetables and even all of sheep and beef into one pile here\u2014let\u2019s call it the green pen\u2014and I\u2019m going to put dairy in this pile here, and this has as much emissions as every other form of agricultural production in this country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5ecb4205da14d4e95afe0678c4920e4\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: And it pays a lot of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e715ec153cf942c2bb119e08ca006dd6\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Are you saying that all the other forms of agricultural production don\u2019t pay bills? Of course they do\u2014of course they do. Why would we not incentivise those forms of agricultural production that put nutrition into human bodies without doing such catastrophic damage to the climate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dea06c2bff124c289ad5b13a2b096b18\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: Subsidies\u2014talking about subsidies, Steve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227df76dc4d83f45fdb03e7f81c9300969\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Without subsidies? Yeah. I mean, who\u2019s subsidised in this country? The dairy industry is subsidised by the fact it doesn\u2019t pay for its emissions. That\u2019s exactly who is subsidised. It\u2019s the failure of this sector to be willing to accept its responsibility. It\u2019s saying we don\u2019t want to be responsible and the biggest, most powerful lobbyist in this country is Fonterra. It is the dairy industry, and these guys are doing their bidding. This Government is doing the bidding of the big bully in the room, and that is Fonterra. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIf the Government was actually willing to deal with the problem, they would rightly say\u2014as people previously of other, more enlightened National Governments have rightly acknowledged\u2014that we need to keep a track of what the emissions are doing, and we need to do something about it for the good of everybody, and there are solutions. There are ways to produce in a way that does not damage the climate, does not pollute our rivers, does not turn our water carcinogenic through contamination from nitrate. These are all things that can be achieved through a willingness to acknowledge the harm that is caused and those means of production that cause that harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt is a sad day in the trajectory of the challenge that we all do face in climate change, because if we\u2019re not willing to take on the toughness of that challenge, we are choosing to put the pressure on to future generations to deal with it. If that price is not going to be paid in this generation, then the farmers of the future are going to have to pay that price, and they\u2019re going to have to pay that price at a much greater level to catch up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENot only is this Government kicking the cause and the consequences of climate change on all future generations, it\u2019s putting the burden of the impact of dealing with greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture on to future farmers. That is what it\u2019s doing. Or else, I should say, if it\u2019s not doing that, it is choosing to decouple Aotearoa New Zealand from the global challenge. It\u2019s saying that we\u2019re no longer part of that global challenge; we\u2019re not going to do our bit because we\u2019re not going to be prepared to stand up to the biggest-emitting sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EOne of the burdens of us deciding to not do that is that, if we remain part of this Paris Agreement and these agreements to deal with climate change, we face a future bill of between $3 billion and $23\u00A0billion to buy overseas carbon credits to account for our failure to reduce our emissions in the way that we\u2019ve committed to. Who\u2019s going to pay that $23 billion come 2030? All of us: the public, the taxpayer; or is it going to be the dairy industry that pays it? Who\u2019s going to pay the bills? Who\u2019s going to pay for the clean-ups of the catastrophic weather events that are going to hit us with increasing frequency? It is going to be our children and our grandchildren, and that is a shame on this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002267da27357d174e9bb078e2b52f944298\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267da27357d174e9bb078e2b52f944298\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This will be colourful, as you can well imagine, as I share a few thoughts on the second reading of the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill. Gracious me, I\u2019m fascinated by some of the language that I\u2019ve just heard shared from the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor. \u201CIdiots\u201D I think was the language on this side of the House\u2014an inference to my rural friends. Absolutely comedic from the said member. I do wonder, just very quickly, incidentally, kind sir, why you\u2019re now sitting in Opposition. There you go: an abandonment of rural New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThis was a great piece of work my committee, the Primary Production Committee, did. We heard a lot of submissions, 581 submissions; 26 were heard orally\u2014gracious me. And 65 percent, give or take a bit, were in support of this bill; about 30 percent opposed; and, depending on who you asked on the day, about 5 percent disagreed. We have heard all manner of hyperbole in this House, and we\u2019ve just heard it now\u2014the end of days, the catastrophisation, climate change\u2014it\u2019s all over; rural New Zealand\u2019s going to be the first to bear the brunt of it. I want to frame it, if I can\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2556f99d012494db49de979ce6218fb\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Go to Hawke\u2019s Bay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022110927127402410bbf2ce12334e24d7a\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for that member and others\u2014if I can frame a few questions for the sake of their virtue in this House. What percentage are we talking about here? Carbon dioxide is 0.04\u00A0percent. Gracious me, Mr O\u2019Connor. Methane is two parts per million, and we\u2019re having this hyperbolic runaway conversation, end of days\u2014two parts per million. That, Steve, is a nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220cc97c19d294750a938fa82de134182\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Do you know how much cyanide gas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264df3d57a823428cb087527bdf9feed0\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we can debate that after the fact. We\u2019re not talking about cyanide; we\u2019re talking about methane. So here we go. By virtue, that side of the House is willing to impoverish a nation; this side of the House\u2014i.e., the Government\u2014is absolutely not. That\u2019s why we\u2019re committed to keeping rural New Zealand out of the emissions trading scheme. That\u2019s why we\u2019re having a genuine review of methane\u2014its warming effects\u2014creating a genuine split-gas approach. They are totally different\u2014their warming effects are totally different\u2014and we know full well that methane decays back to carbon dioxide in 10 or 12 years and is, by virtue, plant food.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got to have an honest conversation about what the role is of all the gases that are atmospherically warming. Stop the conflation, stop the hyperbole, and actually protect the sector in which, we maintain on this side of the House, we\u2019re going to see a doubling of export revenue inside of the next 10 years. That\u2019s what we\u2019re here for, right? We represent that part of rural New Zealand\u2014certainly my committee does\u2014where we reconcile the costs of lawmaking. Do the costs and the benefits; what does that look like? Do the costs outweigh the benefits? Perhaps, if they do, we shouldn\u2019t do it. That\u2019s the kind of rationale, I think, that was employed by my committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThis legislation affords some common sense, and it goes back to the kind of submission that we heard, or submissions that we heard; 65 percent of people were in favour of having a logical conversation. Adults in the room, stop the conflation; stop this nonsense\u2014the theatricality I talk routinely about. Submissions from DairyNZ, Beef \u002B Lamb, Federated Farmers, individual submissions, all spoke to the 100,000 extra participants that would be involved should farmers and rural people have been otherwise caught by an emissions trading scheme. That is an inordinately difficult problem and extremely expensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI maintain a couple of logical things: we have to have a conversation about what mitigation tools look like in our future. That is a journey we are on as a country, and I am absolutely happy to maintain a couple of, what I call, core factoids or truisms. We are the most emissions-friendly farmers in the world. Why are we willing to even risk impoverishing ourselves as a nation, our people, with all the difficulties that we have in this world, hospitals that we want to build, roads that we want to create, kids in school, and teachers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243be7ef9e9fb40ba8549c87aac97e9a4\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the income coming from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226536740c67ad4b629f5dd8af6f6a9f05\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: Where does all that money come from? We can\u2019t just magic this stuff up because the left says, \u201CWe\u2019re going to tax the bejesus out of the farmers and it will all come right.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI think this is the kind of conversation that we need to have as adults in the room. We are an emitter\u2014yes, admittedly. What does that look like? What does our role as a little country in the bottom of the South Pacific look like in terms of reducing emissions? I pose the question because I have heard members on that side of the House say, \u201CReduce livestock numbers.\u201D Well, I ask them: how many cows, how many sheep, how many goats, how many animal ruminants would we have to get reduced by number to keep our emissions profile additional warming below 1.5 degrees? You don\u2019t know\u2014you don\u2019t know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022323c0d43b67e4bb6a6f62c70aa98dae9\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Not many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225977ef1f5f44454184860c43b74b5da3\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: This is the problem, right? That side of the House doesn\u2019t know, and yet they\u2019re the first people to say, \u201CYou, the rural sector, we want to see a reduction in animal numbers. We think that\u2019s the way forward.\u201D I think that is a nonsense. We\u2019re the most efficient farmers in the world, and by virtue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1242c0e8be041e39eefdefd6dac7d50\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not even true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022810d95aa1ab2462082c55f291f0a08e8\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the 40 million people we feed, the 5 million here and the 35\u00A0million\u2014that member can debate that issue tomorrow. I maintain we\u2019re really good at this, and there are other parts of the world that are not. If we\u2019re not making it, someone else is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tie off with one other remark: we are fortunate enough, as the Primary Production Committee, to have long-term insights briefings from the likes of Ray Smith and others\u2014clever people. They have actually said, frequently, several times\u2014people like Ray Smith and others\u2014that in the next 30\u00A0years the greatest economic growth and rural growth as an industry\u2014dairy, beef, sheep, you name it\u2014will be in the Sahel belt of Africa and South-east Asia. These people are poverty stricken. They are going to be a lower-middle class that is emerging. What do they want? They want energy and they want high-quality protein. This country\u2014and I won\u2019t apologise for that\u2014makes the best high-quality protein in the world. That side of the House would see that diminished. This side of the House absolutely will not, and we will support rural New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThis bill is a good piece of legislation that affords that kind of logic, and I support the commentary that is about to come, because I think this is good legislation, and we support rural people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u002237fbf8fde3484ea9b554029765610ef7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237fbf8fde3484ea9b554029765610ef7\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to add New Zealand First\u2019s support for this Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill\u2014by gee, that is a mouthful. It is another coalition commitment being honoured by this side of the House. Bringing this piece of legislation through to this next stage and supporting it through, we have taken the sword of Damocles off the rural sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWhy have we done that? As Mark Cameron has just so well articulated, it\u2019s not because we don\u2019t care about these things. It\u2019s not because we\u2019re buying into the hyperbole that we\u2019ve heard, and some of the dire predictions. We have done it because the emissions trading scheme (ETS) is a wholly inappropriate vehicle for which to deal with this challenge of reducing biogenic methane. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThe metrics around this would have involved converting the biogenic methane into a carbon dioxide equivalent, and farmers would have had to pay essentially a tax on that, when, as Mark Cameron alluded, this is a short-lived gas. It has different characteristics to carbon dioxide. Most of us came here in an aeroplane emitting carbon dioxide that will be in the atmosphere for hundreds of years. We are talking about a biological system where methane converts into carbon dioxide and is sequestered back round into the soil. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe, as a coalition, are having a re-look at where those metrics sit. We\u2019ve got a team of international experts so that we can get that target exactly right. We\u2019re looking at no additional warming as our yardstick. It makes absolutely no sense to put such a handbrake on our most important industries, the primary sector, those 82 percent of our exports for which our standard of living is so wholly dependent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThere would have been unintended consequences of this. We knew this at the time; Minister O\u2019Connor knew this at the time. That\u2019s why I didn\u2019t put agriculture straight into the ETS: because we knew it was totally unsuitable for the challenge that we had with biogenic methane. It would have ended up being a dead-weight tax\u2014that\u2019s all it would have been on farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThe unintended consequences would have been that, actually, you would have tried to farm a little bit harder just to make a little bit more revenue to cover the cost of a tax because it wasn\u2019t actually going to\u2014Steve Abel is a little bit mistaken in thinking that farmers on an individual basis would have been incentivised to reduce their emissions. They actually wouldn\u2019t have been. That would have been a great averaging system, and they would have just paid a tax based on essentially production. To offset that, they would have probably just tried to farm harder to make a little bit more revenue to pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EIf you look at our sheep and beef sector in particular at the moment, the Beef \u002B Lamb New Zealand financial service forecast predicting last year a $65,000 profit before interest, tax, and drawings\u2014a cash loss, in other words, for almost all farmers. These farms are not in a position to carry a dead-weight tax for no actual gains. We on this side of the House see much more merit in the carrot rather than the stick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThere has been some talk, and I note Fonterra has been brought up on the other side of the House. They have a target of a 30 percent reduction in emissions by 2030. We\u2019ve got Nestl\u00E9 over here\u2014the former Minister O\u2019Connor alluded to that earlier; they\u2019ve got market pressure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI went to one of the most positive meetings that I\u2019ve been to in recent times\u2014actually, since I\u2019ve been back in this House\u2014the low-methane genetics and Beef \u002B Lamb New Zealand and AgResearch and AgriZero and some leading livestock farmers. We absolutely know how to do this; we just need to get the market incentives right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to announce that you will be able to buy cool wool rugs by Christmas. Bremworth were there; they saw the advantage in this. They saw the marketing angle in getting behind those very farmers that Steve Abel was talking about that are demonstrating a real willingness to lower their emissions. They\u2019re going to take their wool, put it into rugs, and put it out into the marketplace. That is the sort of initiative that will take farmers with them, not just getting a one-size-fits-all stick to beat them with. The farmers of this country are sick and tired of being portrayed as climate villains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThe red meat sector\u2014and I know Mr Abel will have seen these figures too, because they\u2019re not public, but they have already exceeded the targets for 2030, but they\u2019re not doing it for any other reason but they\u2019ve been driven out of business. We\u2019re having an incredible drop in livestock numbers\u20146.5 million less used than just a few years ago. This is a very, very worrying trend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWhilst I wasn\u2019t at the Nuffield New Zealand Awards Function tonight, I\u2019ll tell you where I was. I was at Unity Books down in Wellington there at the launch of the Woolsheds book, an amazing pictorial book with stories of 15 iconic New Zealand woolsheds. In her speech, the publisher got up and said that the great tragedy of this is that many of those sheds are no longer being used or have very reduced numbers going through them than what they did. Our very heritage, our very history is being taken from us. We are driving these farmers into the arms of forestry, and this is what we\u2019ve got to be so mindful of on this side. We have got to have a balanced approach, and putting a tax on that sector particularly would be absolutely devastating, would accelerate that trend. It would have massive impacts on our rural community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThis is not climate denial; this is looking out for our rural communities and taking a balanced approach, reflecting the reality of what\u2019s happening out there in the real world. We are looking to technology. We are looking for nature-based solutions. We are reviewing the science so that the targets genuinely reflect what we have to reduce, but we cannot do that by just continuing to reduce stocking rates. We must do it by farming smart and innovating and the things that have made agriculture the backbone of this economy for the last 150-odd years\u2014or certainly since the ship sailed out of Dunedin in 1882, was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI\u2019d thank the Minister of Climate Change for bringing this forward. As I say, this is a coalition agreement that we are honouring. Congratulations to the Primary Production Committee for hearing some 581 submissions\u2014a large and significant task. As has been said, 65 percent of them\u2014two-thirds of New Zealanders that submitted on this bill\u2014saw what we were trying to do. It\u2019s not about denying climate change; it\u2019s not about agriculture not doing its bit. It\u2019s about stripping away a tool that was wholly inappropriate for the job that it was being asked to do. This is a sensible approach, it\u2019s a balanced approach, and it will be a successful approach. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221040b64febe14c9a86e0a54589c5aaa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221040b64febe14c9a86e0a54589c5aaa4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0896dffa809497bb5a4920e59a968f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0896dffa809497bb5a4920e59a968f2\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. I stand to speak to this bill on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, and our view is that this Government must have some magical insight into Planet B that we\u2019re not aware of. It\u2019s not about being climate deniers; in fact, it\u2019s about being tangata whenua deniers. If I was to summarise parts of the M\u0101ori perspective of the submission\u2014and I can only share what it is that M\u0101ori submitted; you may not like it, but they have every right to put across their views\u2014it\u2019s that it excludes Te Tiriti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori have not been adequately involved in the design and implementation of this bill. In fact, He Waka Eke Noa had at least included some input from M\u0101ori\u2014M\u0101ori farmers who wanted to transition to sustainable farming were not supported to do so. I was going to say that again because they are the original rural people of this nation. I\u2019m going to say it again for those who may have trouble understanding: M\u0101ori farmers who want to transition into sustainable farming were not supported to do so. The absence of emissions trading scheme could widen further economic disparities between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori farmers. But this isn\u2019t about M\u0101ori farmers and this isn\u2019t about looking after good farmers. This is actually making it really easy for the lazy farmers, and that\u2019s what this Government has been guilty of for a very long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk about\u2014again, this isn\u2019t my view\u2014my voters\u2019, your voters\u2019, our voters\u2019 views. Let\u2019s talk about the community we allegedly serve. The first thing is we\u2019ve got Ng\u0101 Tai, who mentioned\u2014again\u2014\u201CWe are faced with the exclusion of Te Tiriti.\u201D We\u2019ve got Climate Justice Taranaki, who have stated in their submission: \u201CGood farmers are already doing the right things, like reducing emissions and working with nature rather than against it. The Government framework should be supporting and encouraging good farmers.\u201D Fridays For Future Whanganui have touched on the issue of intergenerational equity and a livable planet. \u201CWe can\u2019t keep allowing\u201D\u2014listen to this, please, Minister Jones\u2014\u201CWe can\u2019t keep allowing the greed to dictate the future of our mokopuna.\u201D I don\u2019t know if this Government have any mokopuna, but we\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014are extremely focused on mokopuna decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe go back to some of the other k\u014Drero\u2014[Interruption] Oh, you\u2019re awake? I was worried that you may not have been awake. I mean, let\u2019s talk about the fact that we have a whole agricultural sector that need to\u2014and, actually, the good ones want to\u2014be held to account. They want to be supported to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. What we\u2019ve got here is that, again, we\u2019ve been asked to support another bill that allows the desecration of te ao taiao. No surprise there, wh\u0101nau\u2014no surprise there. This is who we\u2019re talking to. Once again, we have a Government that accelerates climate change. Even though you don\u2019t want it, and even though you\u2019ve come out with some amazing transformational recommendations and ideas, what we have here is, again, a bill that lets our biggest polluters\u2014our biggest bad polluters\u2014off the hook; our worst farmers off the hook. They do not give credit to the great farmers, and let\u2019s make sure that a lot of that includes you and me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWhat we have, in fact, is we have to support a bill that has had zero M\u0101ori input\u2014surprise, surprise, surprise. The answer here, wh\u0101nau, is k\u0101o. K\u0101ore\u2014k\u0101o means no: no way in this\u2014again, we\u2019ll just make it really clear for the understanding of this Government who actually sits here and tries to tell us they\u2019re focused on the future of our nation. They\u2019re actually focused on the future of lazy farmers, lazy polluters, and nothing transformational coming out of this Government. But hey, who\u2019s surprised? Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229a1c065b3c89491c8e878b1a1a8b586c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a1c065b3c89491c8e878b1a1a8b586c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call Fernando Hernandez.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf16a770160245d7956527b4e9e2271b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf16a770160245d7956527b4e9e2271b\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Franciso Hernandez.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254084d1c20cb43ba94aca1918cc6e974\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Francisco, sorry\u2014Francisco Hernandez. My apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf60f08ecc284612aa37785c3340a754\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all good\u2014at least you didn\u2019t call me Scott Willis! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8df37e90b6942de8467fcfcea498c93\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! No, I could never get you two mixed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220217a86524384e5795370081d553c362\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise here to take a call on the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThis is another piece of legislation where the Government\u2019s rhetoric fundamentally doesn\u2019t match up to the reality of their actions. This is a Government that talks about how they\u2019re for law and order, but\u2014surprise, surprise\u2014there\u2019s less front-line police in October than there were this time last year. This is a Government that talks about how they care about child poverty, but\u2014surprise, surprise\u2014they\u2019re proposing weakening the targets. If you don\u2019t count it, it doesn\u2019t count, apparently. This is another example of how they\u2019re saying they care about rural New Zealand, but have they looked at rural New Zealand lately with all the job losses that are happening in all the pulp and processing plants and all the meat processing plants? If this is what the Government thinks is care, I\u2019m frightened to see what it looks like when they don\u2019t care about something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThis bill is another example of them actually, rather than standing up for rural New Zealand, taking tools away from rural New Zealand, because the proposal of the previous Government was to actually not put agriculture in the emissions trading scheme (ETS); like everyone is saying, it was to work with the rural sector to come up with on-farm emissions pricing and a system that actually recognised the great work that farmers were doing through sequestration payments. Instead, they\u2019ve torn that all up. They\u2019ve said no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EMy colleague Steve Abel has talked about already how farmers are at the front line of climate change, and, look, I\u2019ve seen this. I\u2019ve seen this when I visited Northland\u2014great region. They talked about how in the events of Cyclone Gabrielle last year, the whole k\u016Bmara crop around the country was, basically, wiped out by the events of that. Farmers are at the front line of the climate crisis, and this Government thinks that by delaying action and by denying the actual reality of what\u2019s happening; by relying on, you know, these fake scientific reviews, hoping to water down the metrics, they\u2019re actually doing something about the issue, but that\u2019s not the case at all\u2014that\u2019s not the case at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWe know that climate delay is disastrous. We know the great work that He Waka Eke Noa was doing, which was actually going to fund\u2014it was going to fund\u2014farmers to come up with the latest emissions reduction practice. It was going to fund all that, because the proposal was to actually ring-fence all the funding that was going to be raised from the levy and redirect it back to the sector. There\u2019s the rhetoric that \u201COh, it\u2019s just being taken by some Wellington bureaucrats to pay for free public transport.\u201D, or whatever, but it was all going to farmers. That\u2019s just not what the reality is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also another piece of rhetoric that\u2019s\u2014you know, they\u2019ve said, \u201COh, it\u2019s going to be financially ruinous.\u201D Well, if you actually looked at the proposal: the proposal in the ETS was to create a backstop whereby it was going to come in at a 95 percent discount\u201495 percent discount at a processor level. What does that actually look like? Well, I worked it out. I looked at the current ETS spot prices and it\u2019s something like $63, and 5 percent of that is $3.15. Now, $3.15 for a ton of emissions\u2014a ton of emissions\u2014is not going to be, I\u2019m sorry, financially ruinous. It\u2019s a very small amount to contribute to research and development within the sector itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EAnother aspect of this is there\u2019s been a lot of rhetoric about the EU, whether there\u2019s going to be a split gas approach, and how other countries are going to do their bit and how we have the most emissions-efficient farmers. That might be true at the moment, but we should never be content to rest on our laurels. We should never be content to actually allow people to get complacent. We want the New Zealand farming sector to remain the best in the country, and the only way we\u2019re going to do that is by funding research, by funding updated practices, and by funding good practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve already seen protests happening in the European Union, in France, when they signed the free-trade agreement with New Zealand. Part of that protest was that the farmers over there don\u2019t feel like New Zealand is going to pull its weight, and actions like this are going to absolutely\u2014absolutely\u2014threaten our market reputation. The Minister of Climate Change himself talked about the issue of the premium and how there\u2019s strong market pressures to actually take action. Reputation\u2014New Zealand\u2019s reputation\u2014is absolutely on the line, which is why we strongly oppose the bill and we hope that you\u2019ll all oppose it too. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u002240fc5defb28d453ebe64e89976980ced\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240fc5defb28d453ebe64e89976980ced\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Pastoral farming in New Zealand is in crisis at the moment. We have had a significant drop\u2014as my colleague Mark Patterson mentioned\u2014in sheep numbers over the last few years. Our breeding ewe numbers in New Zealand are now at 15.6 million, down from the highs in the 1980s in the 70 million-odd sheep altogether there was. The answer to that, the Opposition thinks, is to tax the emissions on livestock. All that is going to do is drive more farmers out of business and add to the afforestation of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003EThe intention to introduce emissions taxes is hardly fair when there is no clear way to measure emissions on farm. We\u2019re getting there. They\u2019re working towards it, but currently there is no fair way to measure emissions. Essentially\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238b91dcc23bf404da8355e742a5a8c59\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Well, how are Fonterra going to do it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af3085945f5c4d08a0555a680e296eb0\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. That\u2019s why they\u2019re not doing it yet, Damien.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022658f5b66a33442dfbc55f8c2b87ba402\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: How does Fonterra do it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022844936dd902a4ce2b33aead1b03a4068\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not taxing them, Damien. The members opposite are very happy to tax farmers on a guess\u2014and that\u2019s what it is, it\u2019s a guess. The members opposite are happy to tax our pastoral sector when, as I said, all that tax will do is accelerate the transition into pine trees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289682f8f6a7342b48716da6da089ffb3\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: How much methane from a blueberry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e23b0ff1844fc3beac0cff9773b6b4\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! There are no tools available as yet to help farmers in the mitigation. There are tools being developed, there are breeding tools, there are vaccines in the future, but nothing on farm available now. It takes generations of breeding to get livestock that are useful for breeding purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003EWe are investing in solutions. What we need to do and what this Government is doing is reevaluating some of the science. We\u2019re looking at the sequestration and how that needs to be properly evaluated. It would annoy members of the Green Party to note that the Canterbury Plains now have several centimetres more of topsoil due to irrigation and dairy farming than they had previously, but none of that carbon in that topsoil is able to be counted. The methodology is not scientifically sound at the moment and is far from standing up to scientific peer review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very, very happy to see that the Primary Production Committee has majority voted to return the bill to the House unchanged, because I think this is going to make a big difference to the pastoral sector. There are scientific investments happening right now that will help alleviate any concerns around the emissions. What I would like to point out is that we consistently get told that 50 percent of our emissions are from farming, but that\u2019s a gross target based on what is now considered to be poor science. It has been considered to be at least overvalued by four times, possibly more. That\u2019s what this Government needs to do and is doing\u2014re-evaluating all that science\u2014because we are basing a lot of our decisions on science that is old. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba903489b44e4c2a82e0a653f822eb93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba903489b44e4c2a82e0a653f822eb93\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Heoi an\u014D e te M\u0101ngai ko taku mihi tuatahi ki \u014D t\u0101tou mate huhua o te w\u0101. Otir\u0101 kua haere tini koutou ki tua o te \u0101rai, n\u0101 reira, haere haere haere atu r\u0101 koutou. T\u0113nei te tangi aroha ki ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau e noho pani ana i t\u0113nei w\u0101. Heoi an\u014D huri noa ki a t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei p\u014D, tihei mauri ora. Ng\u0101 mihi o te p\u014D ki a t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker. Also, Madam Speaker, my first acknowledgment is to our loved ones who have recently passed. You have all gone beyond the veil, and so farewell, farewell, farewell to you all. My heart goes out to the families who have been left bereaved recently. Therefore, everyone present here this evening, good health and wellbeing to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI rise to speak on behalf of the Labour Party tonight. First of all, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Hon Simon Watts\u2019 mihi to the Primary Production Committee\u2014great committee, I must say\u2014but also acknowledge that while he correctly stated that this bill was passed by majority, it was not unanimous. That said, it sounds like you are correct, opposite, in saying that 65 percent of submitters did support this bill. However, I\u2019ve spoken to several of those submitters who say while they supported it, they don\u2019t know exactly what\u2019s coming. And that\u2019s the issue here: what\u2019s the plan? It\u2019s OK to get rid of something\u2014you know, ladies, when we get rid of a pair of shoes, we got a plan for a new pair. What\u2019s the plan here? [Interruption] Is that right? No objection from that side of the House. Miles knows\u2014Miles knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EEffectively, we all want the same thing. The opposite campaigned on the fact that Labour don\u2019t care about farmers\u2014that\u2019s simply not true. We just care about all farmers. We care about farmers across the spectrum. Debbie mentions some of the implications for M\u0101ori farmers, and I\u2019ll get to talking about some specifics about that later, but across the floor, I heard the word \u201Cgains\u201D. What are we talking about when we say, \u201Cgains\u201D? Profit. There\u2019s nothing wrong with profit. I\u2019ve said it once, I\u2019ll say it all the time\u2014there\u2019s absolutely nothing wrong with making profit\u2014but when we say gains, we\u2019re saying we want gains for the farmers, for the whenua, and for foreign trade, and we can do that all sustainably.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWe know farmers are efficient, but I just want to pick up on some of the implications for farmers on whenua M\u0101ori, whose book we could take a leaf out of, I reckon, because some of us don\u2019t have the luxury of thinking about our own farm in this generation. Some of us have the obligation of maintaining whenua for generations to come and in honour of generations before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0fd1ce99c3f46508fdae7177808c7f6\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Heard of family farm?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bf2cd4ba1d64caf969f70f7a4984743\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: I live on one\u2014I live on a family farm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab32c6f2ffaa4d619b7e333a6c3640c1\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. So do I\u2014so do I.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264d2694af7c94d169a4477cfa7138201\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why I\u2019m making the distinction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe760d73c6564f6b94e446971eac3435\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: So do I.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a8606ba7ea4f8d94fb2544968c8b4f\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why I\u2019m making the distinction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022195a7614f98241a1b79a3ec817a05141\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: My neighbour\u2019s a sheep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4192d6121d34e4a91ace03cdaae0aea\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: This is not a farm-off. I just told you\u2014this is not a farm-off. This is about big picture and not considering things in isolation. We\u2019re considering one tiny aspect, as you know, because you own a family farm. It\u2019s not just about emissions. What about the whenua? We\u2019ve got to think about the fact that there\u2019s the potential under this bill for people to overstock\u2014you know, the temptation. We\u2019re trusting people. As we see in the Primary Production Committee, and we know in our personal lives, there are several\u2014the majority of farmers have the best intention. However, when you talk about gains in the sense of profit, the temptation to overstock will be something some\u2014probably a minority, but you can\u2019t rule it out\u2014will not be able to resist. Then we get the risk of something that\u2019s already a huge issue: erosion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThen we get the risk of biological matter\u2014for the wh\u0101nau watching at home, that\u2019s mimi and t\u016Btae\u2014getting into our waterways. Far out, where normally you criticise the Greens for being the ideological ones, now you\u2019re sitting there saying you can guarantee 100 percent of farmers are going to do the right thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0eef344adbc43d38eb0d4cf440cf257\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s not overuse the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603355c42a8749cdb78ba3e6e8d6051f\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry\u2014members opposite, usually the Greens, are getting accused of being ideological, living in some \u201CPollyanna\u201D Greens utopia. Yet members opposite seem to be implying that they can guarantee that all farmers will do the right thing to reduce emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ENow, talking about how we can do this sustainably, and the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor has already outlaid the benefits to our trade relationships of doing this right. So I want to give a personal shout-out to a farm called\u2014you will have heard of it\u2014Whangar\u0101 B5 the East Coast, managing the whenua sustainably; managing the wai sustainably; and taking the trade, taking Aotearoa, to the world. When they put their beef on the market, you know what the world said? \u201CDa, da, da, da, da, I\u2019m loving it!\u201D because they supplied McDonald\u2019s. Yet, while doing that, they are maintaining that whenua for generations to come. So, of course, we want farmers to do well individually, ahuwhenua, all of them, but we must maintain our taiao\u2014it\u2019s the only one we\u2019ve got, wh\u0101nau. Farms come and go; economies rise and fall; Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, Tangaroa, and our wai are only here once. We\u2019ve got to think about our generations to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D, Madam Speaker, I\u2019m just going to see if I\u2019ve missed any of my notes\u2014no, I think I\u2019ve covered it all. Just to reiterate that, on this side of the House, we are here for farmers, for whenua, and for foreign trade. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00223419a29a4fb945969fd8dde9b3f04fce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223419a29a4fb945969fd8dde9b3f04fce\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I rise with great pleasure to support this bill to take agriculture out of the emissions trading scheme (ETS), because on this side of the House, we recognise that farmers are the backbone of our economy. We are putting aspiration back into our primary sector again. To hear that side of the House refer to our farmers as \u201Clazy\u201D\u2014I have never met a lazy farmer. Those farmers are up at the crack of dawn. They work hard all day, working to raise money, to get the wheels moving in this economy. Our famers are definitely not lazy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the thing, because that Government villainised our famers; they went to war with our farmers. Well, it\u2019s about time that we put some confidence back into our rural sector, our primary industries, and we put some aspiration back again, and that is what this bill is about. It\u2019s about practical sense. The purpose of this bill is to keep agriculture out of the ETS. Our dairy farmers here in New Zealand are among the most carbon-efficient in the world. They are some of the best farmers in the world. I\u2019d actually vouch personally for\u2014you know, a lot of my family are dairy farmers. They are hard-working dairy farmers. We\u2019ve got some dairy farmers here on this side of the House. We know the realities of what it takes, producing some of the best, highest-value product in the world; our largest exporter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003ETo the point of the previous member, Cushla Tangaere-Manuel, they may actually need a bit of a lesson in what drives the productivity in this country. Our food and where it\u2019s produced, our dairy, our butter, our milk, our red meat\u2014it\u2019s all produced by our hard-working farmers in New Zealand. We don\u2019t want to give away our competitive advantage as a small nation at the bottom of the world, and keeping agriculture out of the ETS will ensure a profitable and sustainable future for our farmers and our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve already said, Kiwi farmers are the most efficient in the world. Farmers need the tools to reduce emissions before pricing agricultural emissions, and I think we\u2019ve already spoken about that tonight and looked at our vision, looking at science and innovation and biotech, things that are going to power up our agriculture sector again, but we must not punish and vilify our famers. That is why this is a very good bill that makes practical sense, and that is why I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed47417554db48eba202a11b005d9768\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed47417554db48eba202a11b005d9768\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, this is a bill that takes us backwards\u2014there\u2019s no two ways about it. The member who just resumed his seat went on about\u2014I don\u2019t know if it was vilifying or villainising farmers. None of us are here to do that. Ultimately, that lesson was unnecessary because all of us know that our agricultural is vital to New Zealand. I don\u2019t think anyone is arguing that point. We know that about 70 percent of goods exported\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7c75e304a69465b959b2f5b8cf7ef5c\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: 80 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc2703d3392d48a999d0de09fb099850\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014are through agriculture\u201470 or 80 percent; whatever. The point I\u2019m making is it\u2019s pretty high. We all know that. We know that there have been financial insecurity and stresses and there\u2019s pressure that farmers have been going through. None of us is here to vilify farmers, but the point remains that, currently, about half of New Zealand\u2019s emissions come from agriculture. That is undeniable, as is the importance of agriculture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWhat we are talking about on this side of the House is bringing some balance to this debate. We know that, primarily, emissions comes from biogenic methane and nitrous oxide. We know that this bill will take us backwards when it comes to our climate change commitments. We know that it jeopardises the trade commitments that we have made. All of those are facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe other point that we are making on this side of the House, and that colleagues have made eloquently, is the fact that He Waka Eke Noa was scrapped with no plan to replace it. That is the crux of the issue here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EMembers opposite can stand up and wax lyrical about the importance of the agricultural sector. We on this side agree with that, but we also say, \u201CWhat about our commitments to the environment and our trade agreements?\u201D What about those very practical things as well? Where is the plan? Show us the plan. But there isn\u2019t one, is there? I mean, I acknowledge the $400 million that the Minister of Climate Change has mentioned in terms of a commitment to technology and the tools being developed, but the point is that they\u2019re being developed. If a commitment is made on the other side of the House to actually price emissions from agriculture by 2030, we\u2019re running out of time. Where is the plan\u2014once again. For that reason, I don\u2019t commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u002274654590e6b74ec594158683212bc44c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274654590e6b74ec594158683212bc44c\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it\u2019s becoming really clear in this House that there is a clear division when it comes to supporting and understanding our rural sector, because the people on that side of the House have no understanding and no feel and no trust in the people that earn the money for this country. This side of the House gets it. We understand the importance of our rural sector to New Zealand and to its economy, and that is the real frustration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EProbably some of the most divisive arguments and debates that we have in this House are around the rural sector, and I\u2019ve heard comment about the He Waka Eke Noa proposal. Well, the reason it died was because the former Minister opposite killed it. They had their chance. That was put on the table, and all they had to do was accept it. No, it wasn\u2019t good enough\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ba89dff452247aaa04edf5e0944ab3a\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: It didn\u2019t answer all the questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209f8152d9db846558c50548a2f258e43\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they threw it back in their face, and that was lost. You\u2019ve had your chance, you failed, and now it\u2019s up to us to fix the problem. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing\u2014we\u2019re here to fix the problems that you couldn\u2019t. Right, and now the other conversation we had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022647d51ae9c1042468e4894b3ab17fad6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t overuse the word \u201Cyou\u201D, please. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022576cafabea544768aa164374651bcb0a\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, and it\u2019s the members opposite\u2014thank you. The other point I would like to make is that they talk about, \u201CWell, what are we doing to reduce\u00A0emissions?\u201D Speaking as a Fonterra farmer, we\u2019re very focused on reducing our scope\u00A03 emissions. We are measuring those emissions and we have been incentivised to do so, and it\u2019s called the cooperative difference payment. That is what we are doing, and we don\u2019t need attacks to come from you lot\u2014from that lot on the other side\u2014to achieve it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EI say to you\u2014I say to the people on the other side\u2014that you\u2019ve got to understand the farming sector. Understand the importance and understand the investment that we\u2019re making in our communities in our rural sector, who do the science and the research to actually find these solutions, because otherwise the only thing that\u2019s going to happen is our country will get poorer and the globe will heat up more, because you\u2019ll find that that\u2019s where the emissions will come from. It\u2019s from more emissions from less efficiently produced food from the other side of the world. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1305545705243e58b67a034f8a17f2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1305545705243e58b67a034f8a17f2a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is amazing how patronising these Government members can be and how lazy they are in their speeches when they just say that anybody who dares to disagree with anything they say is vilifying farmers\u2014what a load of rubbish! Total rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, I wanted to start this speech with three things that I thought the House could agree on, but I\u2019m not so sure after listening to the member for Waitaki\u2019s speech. Because the first thing I was intending on saying in a friendly and amicable way was we should all be able to agree that agricultural emissions are about half of our country\u2019s emissions. Getting a shake of the head from the member from Waitaki\u2014that\u2019s very interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, of course, I think we can all agree that agriculture is a critical and very important part of our economy, which, of course, is why the member sitting next to me, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, worked so hard on those trade deals with the EU and the UK. Then the third thing is that the emissions trading scheme (ETS) is really what this Government is focusing on in terms of emissions reduction. They rely, and say in all of their policy documents, that that is what they want to do\u2014ETS. None of these complementary policies\u2014they\u2019re all gone; $3 billion in the last Budget gone. \u201CGoing to rely on the ETS.\u201D\u2014but not, it appears, for half of our emissions. There is some inconsistency there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI do note that the point of agricultural emissions being in the ETS was as a backstop. There was a lot of time taken\u2014and we heard about that in some detail from the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor\u2014to try and work out a way to fairly price agricultural emissions. But there was a backstop. With this bill, that backstop has gone. Despite this, we have heard from the Minister that we need to adapt to evolving international obligations. We need a fair pricing system, he said, but we also need tools. What are those tools, and do we not already have some of them, and is this just an excuse for head in the sand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI think, from what I hear from the members opposite, that future technology is one of those tools. Of course, on this side, we agree about the importance of research, which is why we funded much of it when we were in Government, but that research should not be treated as a magic bullet. There may be new technologies that come along and they may reduce the methane produced by our cattle in particular and our dairy herd, but it may not. We know that there are different farm management techniques that can be used now and must be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EInstead, the policy commitments we have from this Government are a combination of more pine trees; the ETS, but not for agriculture; and removing, as I said, all those complementary policies. I have a challenge to this Government, and that is to give farmers some certainty that doesn\u2019t merely rely on pine trees and magical new technologies that we don\u2019t yet have. We can make progress now and this needs to happen. Instead, all I see when I\u2019m in this House and all I hear is an assault on biodiversity, a love for more pollution in our rivers, and no incentives for any sort of decarbonisation of any single gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6a81072cb3f41a1b346de5867c77ec0\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Wind it up!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd945970cff14e01824e9437c244e102\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! I was just asked to wind it up, and I was about to. I was going to say that this is a very sad, sad state of affairs, and that this Government should be ashamed of themselves. They say, \u201CWe\u2019re going to keep to our budgets.\u201D, yet there is nothing that they are doing to reduce emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206388d5d46a4457eaea9d01592463bd4\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Algebra.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223554b11397474c7a94c8f248654f7e9f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Now, Mr Speaker, there\u2019s just been a very curious interjection of \u201CAlgebra.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf72bf7833bc415b9db6509c01d2cb8b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I was trying to make sense of it myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd3a7cd017344f29a2ee533965e06edf\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it doesn\u2019t make much sense because, of course, if you do nothing\u2014or if, in fact, you go beyond doing nothing and you cut $3 billion of funding for doing things\u2014then you are not going to reduce emissions. This Government has total magical thinking on this, and it\u2019s going to hurt the economy in the long run because we\u2019re not going to have those trade agreements that we\u2019ve signed up to at the moment when countries realise that we are doing nothing. What this Government is doing is putting our farmers and our wider economy at real risk, and they should be ashamed of it\u2014get on and make a plan, and do some things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe05d5a777994f20aafade43666554bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe05d5a777994f20aafade43666554bd\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am pleased to take this call in the second reading of the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill\u2014a mouthful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve got to convey that I wasn\u2019t actually part of the Primary Production Committee that actually sat for this here, but looking at the report, clearly a good number of submissions came forward, and obviously there was a good percentage of supporters amongst those submissions for the actual bill itself. In my mind, the heart of this bill is about feeding people with food that has been produced by farmers who are among the\u00A0most\u00A0efficient in the world at growing and producing products with the lowest emissions footprint.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EWe do this while, at the same time, having to transport our products vast distances around the globe. New Zealand\u2019s ability to feed the world should not be underestimated nor trivialised. It is said that New Zealand feeds 40 million people around this world, and I\u2019ve also heard commentators say that New Zealand contributes 10 percent of the diet of 400 million people. Just look at Fonterra. It exports to 130 countries or thereabouts. Silver Fern Farms exports to about 60 countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cf85cc437ea446e9696d5ac9003bdc3\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I don\u2019t like doing this, but to a member who knows so much about this topic, or should do, reading a speech is probably not the best thing in this House. There have been rulings from the Speaker on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb901f5ce464c3bb851c985f688db45\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, at the discretion of the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef92abc673ad411f83aa952fbaaa2885\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: But the member knows\u2014should know\u2014about this topic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab6756ef43984ced85333447a4208d87\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that reflection from the member, and I\u2019m sure David MacLeod has taken note of that, and so I would invite him to do less reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b14693db6d7423586ced38621fd3362\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you for the input. Much appreciated. I was going to say, just before I was interrupted, about another very good company in New Zealand, called Zespri. They actually export to 59 countries. We\u2019ve got some amazing countries in our agricultural sector, and everywhere you look at it, New Zealand is a significant contributor to the world when it comes to food.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EWhy would we ever want to pressure the agricultural industry and its sector to the point where the production is reduced here in New Zealand? All it does is allow that production to take place in some other country that doesn\u2019t even produce it with as good a footprint as us. It is exporting\u2014in fact, it\u2019s actually increasing the global footprint of the emissions that are released globally. It just doesn\u2019t make sense to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EThe future advancements to reduce the agricultural emissions, already spoken about by many people on both sides of the House, are working, but we also need to concentrate that in the future. That answers the question, what\u2019s next? It\u2019s all the investment and all the policy changes that this Government is making that\u2019s going to help us to achieve these gains that we need. We need to be as good as we can because, yes, we need to be competitive for the important customers, just like Nestl\u00E9 that the member on the other side of the House actually talked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EThis bill provides a pragmatic approach. This bill is an approach that is good for global emissions. This bill is an approach that will deliver some of the much-needed positivity to the agricultural sector and an approach that makes sense. A good day is coming for the agricultural sector. Coming from a very proud agricultural area, a rural sector, I back our growers. Everybody on this side of the House backs our growers. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022152ac663b85c48a78127a59661b11873\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme Agricultural Obligations) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000772\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d246d1109dd421bba645aa825df0b39\u0022\u003ECrown Minerals Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc6fda46422c4f0da5593aad46f7b34b\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002268fc567e80ba48d890603cb0978b3c2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268fc567e80ba48d890603cb0978b3c2a\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d10a486b45b54baa9be499661daf9f02\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0f8953331ac44ab9ce805cd0f32b201\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhy is this bill needed? To overcome the most dismal, destructive decision visited upon the energy landscape of New Zealand, when the gangrene tag team decided to cancel the oil and gas industry in New Zealand. Not only did they destroy\u2014destroy\u2014the appetite of the investment community to back our country and use indigenous resources; no, they went on a foolish flight into the future, thinking that everything would be devoid of emissions. And here we are, importing Indonesian coal as a consequence of the gangrene tag team. Make no mistake about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOf course, we need natural gas. It not only represents a fast track\u2014on the point of fast track, wait! There is more good news. There will be a host of energy projects, there will be a host of mineral projects\u2014but I must not be diverted. Electricity generation cannot rely solely on geothermal, hydro\u2014shall I say\u2014wind and solar. Therefore, we need a renewable resource, and we have acres of it, hectares of it, miles of it\u2014indeed, off the coast of the South Island. We will now reopen, with the passage of this bill, the opportunities that were denied the industry, to maintain energy security through further exploration, extraction, and development of this rare but valuable indigenous resource.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOur gas fields have been in decline, driven down by the ban decision, at which point, investors, explorers, and those companies who had grown to love New Zealand were given the cold shoulder by that regime, by that Prime Minister with that vanity-seeking decision which will go down as the worst decision ever visited upon New Zealand\u2019s energy policy environment. Let me mention no firm beyond Winstone Pulp International\u2014closing down because of escalating energy costs, because we do not have the necessary mix of indigenous sources for energy. We are going to open them up, we are going to exploit them, and we\u2019re not going to be guilt-tripped by these fanciful accounts that the planet is boiling. We are lifting well beyond our weight as New Zealanders, not only in creating food but showing that technology and common sense will maintain the quality of life highly sought after by millions of others who seek to come here. We need communities that are strengthened by having access to energy that is reliable and secure. We cannot throw our lot purely on renewable resources that suffer intermittency, and we need to move beyond Indonesian coal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIt is a tragedy that because the gangrene duo destroyed the gas industry, now we have worsened our current account deficit, bringing in Indonesian coal\u2014that will transition to something better, otherwise known as New Zealand - based gas. Not only will we get rid of this wretched ban offshore in Taranaki, it will send a signal to the rest of the world that this Government is open for business. This Government knows that a transition must take place, but what fool leaps out of an aeroplane believing that they\u2019re going into a new transition without a parachute? A fool dressed in green\u2014that\u2019s who does that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, since the ban was announced, we\u2019ve watched a dwarf-like condition emerge in our natural resources sector\u2014from 88,000 square kilometres to just over 8,000 in terms of permitted exploration. The reversal of this foolish, dangerous, juvenile, puerile pursuit of climate purity will be reversed and we will now find ourselves in the clover-rich territory of many applications to develop our petroleum resource.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBeyond seeking further applications for petroleum exploration, we will also have a very efficient process for allocating those permits. This will be called the block offer, and it will be defined, like this Government, through the feature of common sense and pragmatism. There will be alternative permit allocation systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere has been, sadly, the development of misinformation around decommissioning. For the benefit of the House and the thronging number of people watching this speech, I can assure you that the regime that\u2019s been in put in place, sir, to deal with decommissioning is not only based on a clear understanding that we must manage the risks in such a fashion that the regulations that are put in place are proportionate to the risk. No more of this business of understating costs and overstating risks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EFrom time to time, this industry, sadly, has been misrepresented. We all know of, and we\u2019ve learnt some valuable lessons in terms from, the Tamarind imbroglio, but we cannot burden the investment community with such stringent regulations that they no longer are willing to invest in our country. Therefore, there will be flexibility in how mandatory financial instruments are held. There will be a limited trailing liability. By that, I mean there will be the ability for the State, in the event that a very ugly occurrence takes place, to hold people responsible. We will ensure that our decommissioning strategies, our decommissioning practices, are commensurate with other jurisdictions, something that was, sadly, ignored and abandoned by the last regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI cannot overstate how dire our energy situation is in New Zealand. Look no further than the other side of the House for the ruination of energy policy, energy security. [Points towards Green Party members] Look no further than that small portion of the House for the destruction of confidence and certainty, thus leading to a chilling effect within the community willing to invest in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis bill means that capital will be freed up. In addition to that, as \u201CKing Coal\u201D of the mining industry, it\u2019s my pleasure to announce we will have the most permissive regime in the entirety of Australasia for tier 3 minerals. These are relatively risk-free mineral activities, and we want to free these investors, we want to free these fossickers, we want to free these people who are actually going to develop jobs, develop industry in mineral rich areas from the unnecessary dead-weight hand of the bureaucracy, other than the light touch that may, from time to time, be required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, there may be things said about the emissions impact. It\u2019s important that we act with credibility towards our net zero 2050 goals. That is why gas is necessary. It is a far less harmful, emissions-wise, fuel to use than the coal which we currently have. To all the coal owners of New Zealand: I still have your back. Emissions from energy generation are more manageable when we rely on gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOnce this bill is passed, the changes will take effect immediately. There will be, however, challenges in terms of staging the implementation\u2014secondary legislation, otherwise known as regulation. When we get to the committee of the whole House stage, there will be a few refinements made and, at that point, New Zealand will see the full value of a pragmatic approach to energy security and the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the efforts of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. I look forward to seeing the amended Crown Minerals Act serve New Zealanders now and into the future. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00228e73d3230f36429d9ddf8b967d40b785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e73d3230f36429d9ddf8b967d40b785\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E There were 5,524 written submissions, and of those, 96\u00A0percent opposed this bill\u201496 percent opposed this bill in that short, truncated time that was allowed to be through select committee. This bill does nothing for the future of New Zealand. This does nothing to build solutions for our energy future. It takes us backwards; it slows us down. It slows down the innovation into clean and new energy industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, as the Minister was speaking, I was looking up the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee report, and his own officials said this in response or regards to the fact that the 2018 decision was the end of the world and everything we put from there, and the gas industry left\u2014and it\u2019s just nonsense; it\u2019s completely wrong. This is what the Government officials, his officials, said: \u201CExploration activity in New Zealand has been declining since 2014, before the 2018 ban on new petroleum exploration outside onshore Taranaki. This has been consistent with global trends in upstream oil and gas investment, which peaked in 2014.\u201D This whole narrative of the fact that 2018 was the end of the energy industry is completely false, and that Minister is completely false when he states that, because his own officials, his own officials in select committee, told us that 2014 was the peak and the beginning of the decline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAgain, looking in Taranaki particularly, in terms of our last big major gas discovery, the year 2000\u2014so that\u2019s 24 years ago; 2014 was the major\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299eae7c8f33c411598e8939b3448921b\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: This year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e746f267ba64113bcc501c20319dfb0\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Those large ones, as I say, the large major ones, the year 2000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209d68f611c494f0882fa87144a1e2b24\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: This year\u2014Greymouth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241cf2ca3870b43e4961bc30b22bff430\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so they\u2019re finding them. The New Plymouth member just said this year they\u2019ve found more. We don\u2019t need this bill then, right? We don\u2019t need to bother with this, because it\u2019s already happening. The reality is that we did not ban offshore. We did not ban offshore; we stopped issuing new permits, Mr MacLeod, as you would know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c786284519a4ad3b9fab9c0218f6a76\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re from New Plymouth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f23fd24c032436abbafa1083f7ef7b0\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: They were able to have new discoveries, which they did, so you don\u2019t need this. And yes, I live in New Plymouth, as I said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4bc4818e6d049f0b353e6afffee34d7\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s the MP for New Plymouth? Oh, Mr MacLeod. Just checking the MP for New Plymouth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c415f381293d464699e9354300b25461\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and? So the reality is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ad65cbcd18044ce8fd95542d7684a13\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I would encourage members not to have conversations across the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95ad4913ae34348a2280e6bd54e0136\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The reality is that the 2018 decision meant that permits continued, and as Mr McLeod said, there was a new discovery\u2014the largest one was 24 years ago in the year 2000. When the Minister talks about the disarray and the appetite for new investments, as he mentioned, that\u2019s just not going to happen, because we look at the evidence from the Government officials\u2014that 2014 was the last time it was done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAs we go through and look at this piece of legislation, as I said, there were more than 5,000 written submissions, and we vehemently oppose this because this actually slows down innovation. This slows down our decarbonisation because the line in the sand of 2018 was around encouraging\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229290ce856b114d0a876ed862918c9db5\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Coal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6381cd3938b402fa088926d86a11fbc\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014no, that\u2019s not true\u2014investment in innovation; to look at decarbonising. And yet nothing changed in 2018. There were no new ones waiting to come on board, as people try to say; there were other reasons for what happened there. We look back at this and we just see it as a backwards step. We look at tonight in the House, when we look at our agricultural climate emissions obligations that just went through second reading, when we look at the Fast-track Approvals Bill, which, again, is a backward step for our environment, is a backward step for our climate. This is what this Government is on about and what they are doing, and it makes absolutely no sense, because we need to have a line in the sand. If we don\u2019t, then we\u2019re just going to keep doing what we\u2019ve always done and we\u2019re going to continue to pillage the land and our climate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, we look at the impacts that have taken place in terms of what it means\u2014what are the mitigating factors that are going to be put in place\u2014when this bill becomes law. What are their decisions to make sure they meet their obligations in terms of international reputation? This has the potential to have impact on trade. Just today, I met with executives from Microsoft who talked about investment in New Zealand. A key reason for them looking at some options here is around our renewable energy, the fact that they can be in a place where their product is using renewable energy. So, to bring this back and just to flip things around, it makes no sense from an economic perspective, let alone from the fact around climate and our environment. This is just not good law. This is a step backwards. This is offering no solutions. It\u2019s terrible and we will not be supporting this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8bb122a43734e13a2ec71b8cfc1a12d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8bb122a43734e13a2ec71b8cfc1a12d\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is the night of climate change denial in the House tonight. We have gone from the biggest emitting sector, agriculture, and here we come to this next biggest emitting sector, energy. Energy is an interesting one in New Zealand, because we have this phenomenal renewable energy generation in our country: electricity. Electricity accounts for only a fraction of our emissions. Most of our emissions in the energy sector are actually from burning coal and gas, from heat generation, and from transport. We are unique in the world because we have such a phenomenal renewable electricity capability, and our big emissions are coming from our dependence on fossil: on oil for moving vehicles around, on burning coal for dehydrating milk powder, and on burning coal for producing steel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeba36120186484da17b5ecee33acb33\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Electricity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220afd1e6562ae42da9491e894210bb78e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: But the opportunity\u2014electricity is a fraction\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e66e7954094c77838903fba39dab50\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Coal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224543f031f27844c2ac9ec503e6aa4c8b\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of our greenhouse gas emissions, and some of it comes from coal and some of it comes from gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, the Green Party, you\u2019ll be surprised to hear across the House, supports that nuclear energy, that massive hydrogen nuclear energy super generator in the sky called the sun. It\u2019s amazing that that produces trillions of gigawatts of electricity\u2014of energy, I should say\u2014every instant it hits the Earth. If only we had a way to capture that energy! If only we had a way to capture that energy\u2014we do have a way to capture that energy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EInstead of looking to the sky, where this magnificent orb of energy is offering us a free source of fuel for future generations and for present generations, these \u201Cfossils\u201D are digging in the ground. They\u2019re looking down in the ground for the gas and the coal and the oil, those old dirty fuels that we know we need to get off our dependency on if we are to have a livable planet. They are not looking to the future. They are not looking to the sources of energy that can power our society without causing catastrophic climate change. They are undoing the important steps that were taken by this House to move us away from that dependency on fossil fuels, in the ban on offshore oil and gas exploration. They are undoing that and they\u2019re going to bring back the big fossil fuel explorers, in the hope that they might find some skerrick of gas or oil.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe Minister talks about how gas is a cleaner option than coal, at the same time as the Minister intends to increase extraction of coal. So what\u2019s the point? It turns out, actually, the Minister is incorrect on that. Gas, when you take into account the fugitive emissions, is actually a worse greenhouse gas polluter than coal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce08d74b9b534a8bbca28a666f481f2d\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: So you want more coal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256cc3a5c9620465aa10a5eb771676516\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: We do not. They want more coal. They want more coal, they want more gas, they want more oil. What is more, that dependency on those fossil fuels costs us, because, as the member alongside me pointed out, gas was in significant decline, actually, before the ban came into place. Gas production peaked in 2001, and it\u2019s been steadily falling since 2014. Gas companies have made strenuous efforts to find new extractable gas, sinking over a billion dollars in development drilling between 2020 and 2024 with scant results\u2014scant results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThis is not the means for us to achieve energy security in this country. The means is for us to massively increase that renewable generation, to get off our dependency on fossil, gas, coal, and oil for transporting our society. It is absolutely specious and spurious and incorrect when they say that somehow the reason we have energy challenges is because of a lack of gas. It is because of a lack of the ability of this Government to imagine a world without those fossil fuel dependencies and to actually invest in those sources of energy that are native, that we control and we own: the wind, the sun.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220961b6d4287c47b0863b888654d134b0\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re on fast track, Steve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262b93c4e7b8c464aa2e311f19d3f9aef\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: The fast track will open up coalmines. The fast track is going to do seabed mining that\u2019s going to destroy the seabed. The fast track is going to be doing all of the things that increase our emissions. It\u2019s an everything soup. It\u2019s a total mess. It is not a plan for dealing with the challenges of climate change. It\u2019s the coal-ition Government, it\u2019s the oil-and-gas Government, and it is a Government that is in denial of that challenge of climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe reason that we have had such overwhelming submissions on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, on which I had the pleasure to sit against this legislation, is because it takes us so far backwards. It even goes against the advice of the International Energy Agency that gas production needs to stop from 2021. We needed to stop extracting and investing in new oil and gas exploration in 2021.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235008b93ebe34bf3864e56dcce69534d\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s either gas or nuclear\u2014what do you want?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a478854b0db4d5398d3804cc2166648\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: The hydrogen nuclear reactor in the sky called the sun is what we need, and we need to be doing solar and wind and geothermal and using the existing hydro, and that is the means we do it by.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EOnce again, this Government is prepared to put the cost of its failure to deal with climate change on future generations, a cost that, in the simplest terms, if we are to import carbon credits for our emissions, could be around $23\u00A0billion by 2030\u2014$23 billion. That is the cost of this sort of unimaginative, backwards-thinking legislation. All these guys can do is undo the progress. All they can do is go back and retreat to the old fossil fuels, which have no future. Gas is a finite resource. One of the messages of the fact that the industry hasn\u2019t been able to find any gas is that it\u2019s running out. In the ground, it\u2019s running out. The easy-to-access gas has been accessed, and so why would you go searching for a finite source of fuel to supply as power for your society when there is an infinite source of fuel in the form of sunlight, in the form of wind, in the form of rain falling from the sky? Those are the obvious sources of fuel to power our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhat is more, if we are to deal with the existential challenge of catastrophic climate change, that is exactly where we need to move our society towards: away from our dependency on fossil fuels. That is the challenge that this Government, in its denial of climate change, is failing to grapple with. Saying you believe in climate change and then doing all the things that make the problem worse has the same effect as denying climate change in the first place. That is what this Government is doing. It is, effectively, denial by inaction\u2014or, in fact, denial by making the problem worse, by opening up oil and gas fields, by digging up coalmines, by failing to actually seize the nettle and do what we on a planetary scale need to do if we\u2019re going to avoid those extreme weather events, avoid those droughts and those worst effects of climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWe will not be supporting this. What is more, when there is a change of Government, insofar as it is a Green-influenced Government, we will be bringing back the ban on oil and gas exploration. We will be bringing it back, and I just want to put the industry on notice\u2014as we did at the earlier reading\u2014there will be no compensation for the loss of the permits that are issued by this Luxon Government, under a Green Government. We\u2019re telling the industry now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286b879d228e34a5ab3ecd877ce8dec47\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Terrible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d0fc809bffb406fb435888f517bf946\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: And you know why there\u2019ll be no compensation, the gentleman from New Plymouth? Because of the consequences of climate change. Climate change is the biggest threat to human life and human wellbeing on this planet this century, and what is the compensation for the people who get washed away in those extreme weather events? What is the compensation? We will not be compensating those industries that are driving our planet to catastrophe. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u002273ffead6ea094e1a9b5751cdd0952b00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273ffead6ea094e1a9b5751cdd0952b00\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT, and we are supporting this bill, the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, in the second reading. We are actually quite proud to see that we are delivering on our commitment\u2014an election promise that we made. This is part of the ACT-National coalition agreement that is being fulfilled through this legislation, and I want to acknowledge the Minister in charge, the Hon Shane Jones, for his work on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAs this is the second reading, before I talk about the select committee process, I would like to just say that the Green member Steve Abel, as he concluded his speech, the way he said that they are quite determined to bring the ban back if they ever come back in Government, that just shows they don\u2019t understand how to support the economy. They don\u2019t understand how to give that confidence to investors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThere are several reasons why we should be actually supporting this bill, and there is still opportunity for those members to reconsider their position. What I understand is that, yes, they want to stick to their impractical, ideological agenda\u2014because it will be really embarrassing now for them to change their position\u2014but there is still opportunity, because, if they decide to support this bill, they might get more thumbs up than they would if they stick to their impractical, ideological agenda. That\u2019s something for those members to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EI was actually quite amused to see the way members said that they actually support sun. Thank God they support sun. Thank God they didn\u2019t oppose sun. What would have happened if they opposed sun? I would like to say to that member that oil and gas is also formed through natural geological processes. If those members support nature, oil and gas is also natural, so we need to support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIn the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, I must say that I want to thank all the members, those who are regular members; and also all the members, those who subbed on the committee. I especially want to thank the select committee staff because we heard from 104\u00A0submitters and the select committee staff did an amazing job of supporting the select committee members to do what we are required to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAs it happens in all select committee processes, we do get form submissions, and in this case also we did get some form submissions: 11.6 percent of submissions were form submissions\u2014there were a few variants of form submissions\u2014and this percentage excludes those form submissions which look like form submissions but there was a bit of doubt. The select committee also took the initiative of inviting key stakeholders. So the process was quite thorough and I\u2019m really proud of the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThis bill must pass. It\u2019s very important because we cannot continue to see our young ones and our bright ones leaving New Zealand looking for better opportunities. It started happening because of poor decisions made by the previous Labour Government. This bill is not just about oil and gas exploration per se. Yes, it is, but it is also about the creation of more jobs, higher-paying jobs. This is also about making sure that the energy supply is secure and affordable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EOn one side, it is to support the economy; on the other side, it is to reduce the cost of living, because if the energy cost goes up, obviously the overall cost of living for people will go up. Making big announcements to grab international headlines doesn\u2019t feed families. Those headlines, which the previous Labour Government made\u2014and, actually, announcements were made to grab those international headlines\u2014don\u2019t feed families, they don\u2019t warm people\u2019s cold houses, and they don\u2019t give any assurance to businesses that they will not have to stop their processes because of lack of energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EOn this side, we are quite committed to ensuring we have a balanced approach. We have a long-term vision, not short-sighted like them that stifled our economy. We are really proud of this and we want to see that this bill goes through the House as soon as possible. I am very happy to support this bill and commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00227085d565e8c24c45a39edf8512bb8cf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227085d565e8c24c45a39edf8512bb8cf6\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s an honour to speak at the second reading of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. During the select committee, there was quite a bit of really interesting information from officials and from those who submitted on this bill. One piece of information that I found very fascinating\u2014and I had to ask again, was this really true?\u2014was that one of the assumptions that was made when the ban happened was that the area that was under consent would stay around the same and the rate of exploration, which had been trending down, as others have mentioned, would continue at that same rate. Imagine if the graph looked kind of like that at the time. They expected that to continue down, and that was one of the assumptions: that supply and demand would keep up. However, what happened was that it went like that, and supply dropped off a cliff and we saw demand stay the same. So that gap between supply and demand went through the roof.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EThat was why we saw the peak pricing go up over the past winter, when we had the driest hydrological year that we\u2019ve had on record. We\u2019ve had not as many sunshine hours and quite low wind speeds. That meant that our renewable energy wasn\u2019t working so well, so the peaking prices had to be up. We did end up burning more coal, which was one of the unfortunate side effects. The International Energy Agency recommends that you switch from burning coal\u2014as one of their recommendations for how we reduce our carbon footprint. They recommend going to gas\u2014and they also recommend using nuclear. Nuclear is their biggest option, and nuclear power will be generating a record amount across the world in 2025. It\u2019s not something that we can do here; however, we can have lots of options for renewable energy. In helping that transition, gas will be part of it. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002230b74ff6cd7e41149641e3a4480aa8f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230b74ff6cd7e41149641e3a4480aa8f1\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, te P\u012Bka. I stand on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori to speak against this bill. Look, I think there\u2019s not too many in the House equipped to be able to talk about this from the perspective of those who it actually affects the most, which is Taranaki. The amendments that are being proposed\u2014and I need to preface my k\u014Drero by saying there was a ban put in, and while Taranaki iwi supported that, there was always concerns that there wasn\u2019t the follow-up with the degree of transition and investment that was needed to achieve that. I don\u2019t want to stand here looking like I\u2019m on either side. Actually, I\u2019m speaking on behalf of the concerns of Taranaki. I substantiate that by looking at the concerns that they raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI think, first of all, what we need to remember is that we all seem to agree that we need to move away from what it is that we have now. Some think that we\u2019ve got more time to milk mother Earth, and some think that a ban without sort of a great big futuristic plan is going to be enough. Last year, we got a little bit of hope when there was consultation and discussion with a cluster of energy people and interests within Taranaki. And we were hoping that that would be the phase B of the ban, that we would start looking at what could be a future-focused energy solution for Taranaki. The feedback that Ng\u0101 Iwi o Taranaki provided is that they were strongly opposed to the removal of the oil and gas ban. They strongly opposed the proposal to repeal section 58 of the Crown Minerals Act. They strongly opposed proposed changes enabling the prospective permit-holders to apply for permits outside of the block offer process, and the notion that consultation was not required, particularly for hobby mineral mining permits, and the interpretation that the Crown was now going to be applying to adequate engagement with iwi and hap\u016B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe can talk academically all we want, but the reality is there is only one area and one group of people most impacted by the decisions that the Government makes in Taranaki. When the iwi and the hap\u016B who have more experience than anyone else in this room with this particular sector say that they have concerns, one would hope that these Governments would listen. What they\u2019ve said is that we have absolutely nothing coming out providing a solution of what happens next in Taranaki when the finite source runs out, and that\u2019s really concerning. What is the degree of investment that\u2019s going to be followed through? When we look at some of the things that have changed, why is it that we have had iwi who were responsible for some of the best-practice engagement with these companies whom we\u2019ve now relegated to absolutely no consultation, or the sense of inadequate consultation processes, or consultation processes as demonstrated by the Crown? There has been some real absolute advancement from Taranaki based on its misfortune of having more experience than anyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI think some of the things that we sort of saw were the work that was undertaken for the energy strategy for Aotearoa, the gas transition plan, the critical minerals list\u2014there was a clear difference between Crown-owned minerals being open for business and the risk of the appetite of the oil and gas sector, and therein lies the reconciliation that Taranaki is appealing for. It wasn\u2019t to sit there and say, \u201CAbsolutely no.\u201D It was to sit there and say that if we forced a ban, the proposition would have been that Governments would have been forced to have themselves and their agencies look at plan B. Sadly, as much as we talk about just transition, it wasn\u2019t funded, it wasn\u2019t resourced, and today Taranaki are expected to wear the flipflop of another Government. The decommissioning issues, the funding issues we have when companies don\u2019t fund themselves to remove out of our backyard, and the absolute catastrophe that the opportunities that could be going on around our area are being ignored for same old status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI want to make known that I\u2019m disappointed in this particular Government, because there are some progressive people who should have experience and should know better. I\u2019m hoping that, while this is going to go through, no doubt, there is a better approach to what the energy solution for Taranaki should be that includes iwi and hap\u016B and the knowledge and experience that they have. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u00220edc6fdba06f4cabb7637415f0ea919b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220edc6fdba06f4cabb7637415f0ea919b\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m truly astounded by the contents of this bill tonight, and I\u2019m astounded by the crystal clear short-sightedness of it all. Because I ultimately believe that people are good, it makes me feel like this Government simply must not know. They must not understand the implications of actions like this, that actually are against and take us further away from a livable planet which we so desperately need. If this Government understood the science, if they understood the overwhelming, indisputable evidence that developing new oil and gas fields has repeatedly been found to be inconsistent with our 1.5 degree goals under the Paris Agreement, they would not be passing this bill. If they really knew and really grasped that we are the last remaining generation who can actually take action and have a chance at stemming the worst of climate disaster, they would not pass this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ETonight, I invite this Government to step into the world, to really be present, because we are seeing in our face, day after day, climate disaster after climate disaster. I want to acknowledge particularly the harrowing climate impacts that we\u2019ve seen in Valencia, Spain, where we\u2019ve just seen the deadliest flash floods that they\u2019ve had in Spain\u2019s modern history. It\u2019s killed at least 214 people, and, actually, dozens of people are still unaccounted for. Now, we saw the images of cars just floating their way down the street, and this was torrential rain that was the amount of an annual rainfall for Valencia, Spain, that fell in eight hours. This is happening around the world, it\u2019s real, and we actually need to take action to change the fate of this planet, to change the physics and the atmospheric settings that are increasing these climate disasters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI recall, in my time as a councillor on Environment Canterbury, the council went from not believing that it had a role in opposing oil and gas drilling off the Waitaha Canterbury coast\u2014we went from that to actually outright opposing oil and gas drilling off the Waitaha Canterbury coast, and I\u2019ll tell you why we did that. We did that because we actually listened to the community, we listened to the evidence, we listened to academics, to iwi M\u0101ori, who actually came in and talked us through the very real implications. Now, our whole council changed their position to actually support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EYet here we are with this bill, where the Government have all the evidence available to them and they\u2019re simply not listening, not understanding, and not knowing. They\u2019re passing a bill like this which is so damaging and so destructive when it comes to the public having such a limited say\u2014the five days that they had\u2014for such a significant bill that can have such significant impacts for Aotearoa. It doesn\u2019t make environmental sense, it doesn\u2019t make economic sense, and it\u2019s actually really dangerous if this Government, as they claim, are serious about emissions reduction and they actually do want to honour our international climate commitment and play our part in creating a livable future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI did want to point out one of the most extraordinary parts of this bill, and that\u2019s the purported aim that this bill will increase investor confidence. Te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki really want to point out that we don\u2019t want such damaging and risky activities happening here in Aotearoa, that no investors should have confidence when it\u2019s companies and investments whose businesses will directly threaten not only our fragile ecosystems but a livable planet. We cannot have thriving economies if we don\u2019t take serious climate action now. This bill goes against that, and Te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki oppose it outright. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u002208424a9622dd4f6fb91a2fc8184f33ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208424a9622dd4f6fb91a2fc8184f33ea\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to contribute to the second reading of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. This bill is about energy security, it\u2019s about jobs and incomes, and it\u2019s about ensuring our transition to a low-carbon future. As a member of the fantastic, hard-working select committee that considered this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245acf1fde5e4461eba9611a80755ddbc\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7718fb03c6a49cf807d8a2934cdcc0b\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee\u2014a hard-working committee. I just wish to echo for the House today some of the key themes that we heard in select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EWe heard that gas is an important part of our energy transition to a low-carbon future. In fact, I want to commend the submission from Genesis Energy, who submitted a really robust and thoughtful submission around this point in particular. We heard about the unintended consequences of the 2018 ban\u2014that New Zealand became closed for business. I commend the Energy Resources Aotearoa submission, in particular from John Carnegie, who backed this point up quite steadfastly. We heard about the negative impact of this ban in 2018 on our emissions, and submission after submission that we heard actually proved the point that, because of the oil and gas ban, we actually imported more Indonesian coal. Because of that, this increased our emissions profile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ENow, I do just want to say a very special thankyou to the select committee and to the officials, because, as was pointed out, we didn\u2019t have a lot of time to hear from submitters. Actually, we had five days. When this ban came into place, the Government at the time actually gave only 10 days, or two weeks, and we actually heard more submissions on this bill than the previous bill had in 2018. I must say, I was reading the report from 2018, which does inform us for this, and they raised a lot of the same concerns\u2014that iwi weren\u2019t consulted back in 2018. I actually just want to commend all those in the select committee for doing their due diligence and making sure that this bill was scrutinised in less time than the 2018 bill. We had actually more than double the submissions as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThis is an important bill to secure our future, to help secure our low-carbon future, and it is about jobs and incomes. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00229bb16df696b5432e8d5ca67daf2421d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bb16df696b5432e8d5ca67daf2421d4\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. It is occasionally a good idea for us to actually debate bills like this, because it\u2019s very important that I correct the last speaker. I\u2019m on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, and while I do think we\u2019re a hard-working committee, when I was on that committee, we had a lot of submissions that we didn\u2019t get to hear\u2014a lot more than I was comfortable with. We didn\u2019t get to hear them because this bill was absolutely rushed through, and we couldn\u2019t get the clerks, even in the time that we did have, to be available to listen to people and to listen to their submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, that really worries me. We rushed through a bill. We gave people some time\u2014about\u00A012 hours\u2019 notice\u2014that they were going to have to speak. They were rung and were told that we would be hearing them in the next few hours, and the submitters were upset about it. A lot of them cried. It was quite a hard process to listen to. They were overwhelmingly concerned that the Government was burying its head in the sand about climate change, and I share that concern tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to start by talking about one of the little practical things that concerned me. I was very proud in the last Government that we dealt with the situation that had arisen in the case of the T\u016B\u012B oil field. T\u016B\u012B was a situation where the taxpayers, those hard-working New Zealanders, who we\u2019re supposed to be so proud of giving and caring about their money and wasteful spending\u2014well, those taxpayers forked out for a company that had, basically, taken all of the resource of the country and then left us high and dry, as taxpayers, with disintegrating pipes, and we had to make them right. Now, we had put in place a regime that meant that there would be security in that sort of situation so that it wouldn\u2019t happen again. We\u2019re taking that away tonight, and I\u2019m extremely concerned that we\u2019re doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223125f15aa4214894b45ef0afb63390bf\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: What? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb6e8aa2b08e496586aa9dfd6ff07a23\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, sir, if you read the bill, you will find out that we are taking away the level of security that we had, because we made people pay money upfront and we made them responsible. There will be hard-working New Zealanders tonight who work really, really hard and who don\u2019t earn that much who may well be responsible for and liable in the future for the make-do of the pipes that are at the present time already available but will actually be left in a state of disintegration because we have a very changing situation there, and I am extremely concerned about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s one little thing. There\u2019s a much bigger picture here, and it involves what we stand for in New Zealand and it involves what we have as a real peril in terms of our planet. There\u2019s something called a carbon bomb, and if people want to look it up, just google it, and they will see that this is not an extremist position. It\u2019s a worry that there is so much oil and gas out there at the moment that has already been discovered that if we exploit those fields, and if we don\u2019t stop and we don\u2019t actually limit it, we will produce so much carbon that we will double-impact the amount that we can possibly put out as a planet\u2014just now, without exploring any more; just what we\u2019ve got. If you look at it, there\u2019s a really good article by The Guardian on it, and there are lots of other people talking about it. We have enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EYes, we have a transition issue, and I appreciate that that\u2019s a really tough thing for us all, but it\u2019s also tough if we actually end up in a situation where we heat the planet up and we end up with lots of things that we don\u2019t even think about. Yes, we think about floods. We think about the deaths that result in flash floods, but do we think about things like the instability that this causes, the wars that it will cause, or the people who will have to move? Do we think about the starvation? Do we think about the real inhumanity of these choices? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIt is not possible any more to just bury our heads in the sand. We are going to have to face this problem. Now, the good news is\u2014and I\u2019d like to talk about the good news because I was talking to a lot of very depressed submitters, actually\u2014New Zealand can make an extremely good contribution, but it has to look forwards, not backwards. We have an incredible country, and we have incredible capacity. We have electricity. We are able to create the absolutely best source of electricity. We have wind, we have solar, and, not only that, we have geothermal\u2014we have geothermal. We have untapped sources in geothermal. These are all good, sound sources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EYes, if the fast track was directed in the right way\u2014and it was: we had actually done that in the Government prior to this Government coming in; we had tried to target a fast track to those things\u2014I would, yes, accept that there is an argument for fast track. But there isn\u2019t an argument for allowing those very interests that have built up over time, because they\u2019ve got these carbon bonds, they\u2019ve got these ways of being, and letting them actually exploit situations and basically leaving it to the free market and letting these people do these things when we will all end up paying the price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the difference between this side of the House and your own, sir, because what is going on here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ded91c8a18914cc3a8377ee431dc8537\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t refer to the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225762b0d28ba6478598296f5bbe23aacf\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, sorry, sir. That is the difference between this side of the House and the current Government coalition. This side of the House understands that we need to build a future and that part of our role as government is to nurture that and to lead it. It\u2019s called leadership. Actually, what is happening at the present time with the Government is not leadership. It is not leadership to suggest that multinationals who have got a vested interest in doing what they\u2019ve always done, because they\u2019re going to be dead by the time they do the damage. By the time that the chickens come home to roost, their generation will have amassed the wealth and will probably be able to protect their own families. That\u2019s what is actually being allowed to happen. That is not leadership. That is not government in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe Government has a duty to do a lot better than that, and the first thing it requires is taking away from the slogans, taking heads out of sand, away from slogans, doing a bit of research, and actually committing to a very different strategy for this country. That\u2019s what we need. We need a much brighter and, I mean, a smarter future. We need a future where we are manufacturing onshore and using some renewable sources of electricity. We need a future that involves exploring our geothermal. What will happen as a result if we do that is we will be at the edge. We will be at the cutting edge because we have a whole lot of companies, a whole lot of new developing industries, that are looking for a place that has exactly that profile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe heard the other day, when we had a cross-party session on AI\u2014some of our biggest companies say they were attracted to coming to New Zealand because we are a country that is seen as having pure sources of electricity and energy, and there is no problem with industry if it is based on greener fuels. That\u2019s what we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo what is going on? What happened in the select committee was I repeatedly asked about brand. I repeatedly asked for advice on whether there had been any analysis of the cost of this piece of legislation to the New Zealand brand, because there will be. There will be a cost. It is all very well doing a cost-benefit analysis and talking about that stuff, but do it well\u2014do\u00A0it\u00A0well. Go out there and find out what the value of the pure brand of New Zealand is, because, next election, we\u2019re coming at you with a much, much better version.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da47e63d90d44ea685c85a98363abd20\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t include the Speaker in your observation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022889d36f636b84e77826b4c8ac354cc18\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, sir. Next election we\u2019re coming at the coalition Government with a strategy and an approach and a vision for New Zealand. And, actually, it is a vision that\u2019s based on a sustainable future, sustainable electricity. In fact, it\u2019s very interesting that the National Party want to go on continually about looking forwards when in fact they\u2019re taking the country backwards. Often people will say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bc34433e7b241e4abdbd0d49649bc8b\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ed4bd46462d4a3ab84866bca8f7f24f\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, it\u2019s an interesting irony, isn\u2019t it? I would ask, if I was a New Zealander, tonight: who is actually going to get New Zealand back on track? Who is going to bring them into the future? Do you know who it\u2019s going to be? It\u2019s not going to be a Government that passes this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u00220cca06ea28a84bc2a5850f8292b37164\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cca06ea28a84bc2a5850f8292b37164\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in support of this bill, the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. It was interesting listening to the previous speaker, Helen White, talking about security, because if there\u2019s one thing we actually learnt when the world supply chain was, effectively, shut down during the global COVID disruption, it was that, as a country, we were incredibly exposed and vulnerable in regard to our supply chain. What we need most is security of supply of the things that we actually need. The grand announcement made by the previous administration ceasing the oil and gas exploration\u2014all in a hurry to get a medal around their neck on the world stage\u2014has led us to where we are now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker talked about the chickens coming home to roost. Well, the pigeons have come home to roost. Thanks to the previous administration, we now have an energy supply crisis. It wasn\u2019t that long ago that we were actually struggling to keep the lights on, exposing our businesses and their ability to operate and to remain viable. We\u2019ve seen the impacts recently around the country and I\u2019ve heard from some businesses in my electorate, the Wairarapa electorate, of the impacts that it had on their viability. We\u2019ve also exposed our most vulnerable and our elderly to high prices and supply shortages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003EWhy on earth didn\u2019t the previous administration sit down with the energy sector, come up with a plan to transition to renewable energy at the same time as making sure that New\u00A0Zealanders had a reliable, on-tap supply of energy at all times? It beggars belief. We now find ourselves in a position of vulnerability, a position where those that we need to invest in exploration have lost the confidence to invest. I would point out the demand\u2019s not going down. Without gas, we\u2019ll need to rely on higher-emitting sources of energy such as coal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003EThis bill will provide confidence. It will provide the ability to plan our transition to renewable energy. Natural gas is critical to our energy security, and it\u2019s a viable and cost-effective source of energy until we become more renewable energy supply available while still remaining committed to net-zero 2050. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00226f28aeb78b964bd2a3c330ab587339bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f28aeb78b964bd2a3c330ab587339bb\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m going to take a very short call on this, because my colleagues on this side of the House, I think, have laid out very well how this is a regressive bill. It takes us backwards as a nation. I mean, there was legal advice from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade to the Minister for Resources to say that this move to repeal the ban that was put in place in 2018 on new offshore oil and gas explorations is likely to breach New Zealand\u2019s obligations when it comes to free-trade agreements, particularly those with the EU and the UK, because those deals prohibit New Zealand from reducing environmental protections to encourage trade or investment, and that\u2019s pretty much what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, as my colleague Helen White pointed out, this legislation will weaken the decommissioning regulations and rules that were put in place, again, as she mentioned, to prevent the Crown or the taxpayer from having to foot the bill for things like, for example, the T\u016B\u012B oilfield clean-up, which was, from memory, about $440\u00A0million\u2014that is being weakened. While they talk big on the other side about reducing costs for taxpayers, apparently this is quite all right in their books, even though new figures in the advice that was received by relevant Ministers indicate that the total decommissioning cost is approximately $2.5 billion. That\u2019s about $2 billion of that going just to clean up four offshore oilfields and nearly $500 million for 21 onshore fields.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThis is incredibly regressive. It\u2019s a backwards step. It risks our international reputation for being clean and green, and, in addition to that, it basically locks us in to prolonged fossil fuel dependence and has severe implications when it comes to New Zealand\u2019s emissions. Instead of this regressive step, what the Government really should be doing, which was pointed out by the majority of submitters on this bill, is being future-focused, looking at investment in development of renewables, looking at the storage of renewables, and we agree with those submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe final point that I want to make is to members opposite who have pointed out that this is about energy security. We know, though, that the average time from exploration permits being given out right through to first production\u2014the average time is 16 years; the shortest is 10 years. The argument that this repeal is a short- or even a medium-term solution for increasing New Zealand\u2019s energy security is absolute humbug, and we don\u2019t support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022692e5057acc64fffaed970d191029f0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022692e5057acc64fffaed970d191029f0e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is suspended, and I will resume the Chair at 9 a.m. tomorrow for the extended sitting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411052eb86e60f0d543dfafdd0f481fb6cf21000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.57 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220894f2c7d270473181855bcbe016dae9\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 5 NOVEMBER 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc1d93c61905429e8fddb4958a281834\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 6 November 2024)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6d8e69333234f77af8326cf82feb3d2\u0022\u003ECrown Minerals Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221737dcbd88c74d77ae30bb07d456953b\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00223973f0d7e7ba436ab2b3f2bec5115b20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223973f0d7e7ba436ab2b3f2bec5115b20\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed for the extended sitting. This is the interrupted debate on the second reading of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. I call the next speaker, which is call No. 10, a second split call, Dr Hamish Campbell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u00224f79fb908b8f413e9aa50dc0bd8ef200\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f79fb908b8f413e9aa50dc0bd8ef200\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. This bill represents a crucial step towards securing our energy future as we head to net zero 2050. Let\u2019s be clear. The 2018 ban on oil and gas exploration was short-sighted policy that has hampered our nation\u2019s progress. It not only stopped exploration needed to identify new energy sources but it also discouraged investment in further development of our existing gas fields, and the result is that our annual natural gas production has peaked and has been lower than we ever predicted, putting our energy security at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EAlso, let\u2019s be clear: if we don\u2019t use gas until we have renewable energy, we will have to rely on coal. The other side of the House seems to be happy with this, or maybe they\u2019re trying to mask it with their virtual signalling, but the reality is we need thermal generation until we can get our renewable energy on track. When we\u2019re looking at emissions\u2014and we\u2019ve heard cries of flooding in Spain and the effects of climate change\u2014when we burn coal, it emits up to 75 percent more carbon dioxide than if we do gas. That means, if we look at it, 93 to 103 kilograms of carbon dioxide per thermal unit if we use coal and 53\u00A0kilograms if we use gas. Some might argue that this bill is a step backwards in our climate change efforts, but let me reiterate: if we burn coal, we are producing 75 percent more carbon dioxide per unit of energy produced. Natural gas does produce carbon dioxide, but it\u2019s a vital transition fuel that will help us achieve our ambitious goal of net zero emissions by 2050.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EWe need to work to double our renewable energy, and I think nobody is disagreeing with that, but that is why we need the fast-track legislation. We\u2019ve seen this winter, when the lake levels are low, the sun isn\u2019t shining, the wind isn\u2019t blowing, that we actually need a back-up source. Gas provides a reliable source of energy to supplement those renewable energies. Without gas, we risk the increased reliance on coal, which is a more polluting fossil fuel, or we face switching off our power altogether.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022c533da014a144c6d94702d766d86e689\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c533da014a144c6d94702d766d86e689\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s not a pleasure to stand to take a call on the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, and I think there\u2019s some irony in the fact that it says on the wall that the date is 5 November 2024 when the rest of the country is ahead of us as it is 6 November 2024. It is very, very appropriate because this is absolutely an Act from the past. This is literally time-travelling back in time. This is a giant backward step for New Zealand, for the environment, and, through the process taken in this bill, a giant step backwards for good governance. The fact that the other side of the House are comfortable with that isn\u2019t lost on anyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s start by looking at the process taken by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee in considering the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. Two words: \u201Crushed\u201D and \u201Crammed\u201D, because that was the way it was put through that select committee. It was rushed and it was rammed. The select committee had the opportunity to extend the submission window to allow people to have adequate time\u2014people who live in the areas most affected by this legislation\u2014and the select committee said no. They had the opportunity to form subcommittees to be able to hear more submissions, but the select committee said no. That is not an open-minded select committee. That is not a select committee decision that respects democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EHowever, there are great people who, given the four days, the four very limited days, available to make submissions, made submissions in the thousands. I think it\u2019s really important that, as this legislation is rammed through the House, we take the time to actually revisit some of those submissions here, and, as we get into those submissions, let\u2019s not lose sight of the fact that 96 percent of those submissions were opposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI will share extracts of a submission from Te Kotahitanga Marae that expressed full and unwavering opposition. It talked of the \u201Cduty of care to protect and advocate for our marae and rural coastal communities which face the direct impact of climate change, including rapidly rising seas that threatens the very land we live on and the future of our people\u201D, and said that \u201Cthe exploitation of Papat\u016B\u0101nuku cannot be allowed to continue. By allowing further fossil fuel extraction, this bill directly undermines our role as kaitiaki and threatens the sacred connection we maintain with our environment.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe submitter from Te Kotahitanga Marae called on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee and on members in this House to listen to the voices of our environment, of our community, and of our t\u016Bpuna. We were listening\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3a69046b7f14f0a83f2d538fe2aa348\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s reading a speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a20a7139f22a4cbe9d55d91cbc13db88\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m reading a submission, because so many of these submissions were not heard. I\u2019m pleased to hear there is a member listening this time, and I\u00A0will read a whakatauk\u012B because I think it\u2019s incredibly appropriate in the context of the submission. M\u0101 te rongo ka m\u014Dhio; m\u0101 te m\u014Dhio ka m\u0101rama; m\u0101 te m\u0101rama ka m\u0101tau; m\u0101 te m\u0101tau ka ora\u2014listening equals knowledge; knowledge equals understanding; understanding equals wisdom; wisdom equals wellbeing. I am reading that and you are listening, and it\u2019s an important message that you should hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThere is another submission from the World Wide Fund for Nature New Zealand that states very clearly that international scientific consensus is that the use of fossil fuels for energy consumption is the leading cause of climate change, responsible for more than three-quarters of greenhouse gas emissions. A 2023 report from the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) makes it plain that the world is unlikely to meet global targets unless urgent action is taken, with both the UN Secretary-General and the IPCC calling for the world to phase out coal, oil, and gas\u2014phase it out, not start promoting the exploration for it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI will finish on a submission that was light when it was submitted but had high impact when it was delivered to the select committee. This was a submission from Benjamin Neville from Dunedin. He said, \u201CI can accept that different people can hold different views on what is best for the country, but to ignore the wealth of scientific evidence about the huge risk to all of us that further fossil fuel extraction and carbon dioxide emissions will cause is just negligent.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThis was a succinct submission from Benjamin Neville, but it was delivered in a powerful context. He was knee-deep in flood water in a Dunedin street as he delivered his submission to the select committee, and the fact that events like those recent floods in Dunedin are a direct result of the climate change that scientific evidence is telling us is because of the exploration activities that this Government is ramming through should not be lost on members. If you want to have his message reiterated, I suggest that you tune into the song he chose to play at the end of his submission, and it was a very appropriate piece of music to round off an excellent submission from Benjamin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThere are three things that I want to finish by focusing on, three very, very good reasons to object to this giant step backwards. Firstly, starting the re-exploration and the promotion of exploration will slow down our transition to renewable energy. Whilst this may be refuted by members on the other side of the House, it should not be lost on anybody that BlueFloat Energy, upon news of this exploration being back on the table, removed their wind generation development plans from New Zealand shores, and they stated it was because of the allocation of seabed. So offshore wind power generation is off the table because of the actions of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESecondly, trade agreements and our international reputation are at risk. This giant step backwards is damaging our brand internationally, damaging our environment, and undoing the excellent work that Labour in Government did with international trade agreements. Why would you put all of that at risk for this bill? It is hard to understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I think should not be lost on anybody is the huge burden of clean-up costs on taxpayers. This bill weakens the mechanisms to hold the large companies liable for the damage they could cause and for the huge collateral damage that could be caused to our environment as a result. The trailing liability removal and the changes to those clauses make it very, very easy for big business to step away from their obligations to responsibly manage environmental impacts and damage from this very, very risky practice that the rest of the world is rightly walking away from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll finish off by expressing the strongest possible opposition because the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill disrespects\u2014it disrespects proper process, it disrespects mana whenua, it disrespects those who submitted to the select committee, 96 percent of whom were opposed. It disrespects our environment to take such a backward step, to be so reckless, to be short-sighted, and to not have the future of New Zealand as your focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u00229354a965e613425fb96b62e315a58482\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229354a965e613425fb96b62e315a58482\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Let me tell you a couple of things I think are really important to not leave out in this argument. We, as a Government, are very ambitious about a couple of things, and I\u2019m going to share those two things with you today. One of them is doubling renewable energy sources, and the other one is doubling the value of our export market in the next 10 years. Now, we can\u2019t achieve the second one without doing a few things. The first aspect is making our economy more productive. We\u2019re working on that. We\u2019re building roads and it\u2019s all very exciting. We\u2019re going to get people places faster. The other thing we can do is reduce the cost of producing. A big impact on the cost of producing is energy sources for manufacturing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003ENow, in my electorate, we have Pan Pac. We know that, when the energy prices were at their peak, it was about $400 a megawatt. Then a couple of weeks later, it was down to $9.38. Businesses can\u2019t cope with that, and, in fact, they can\u2019t, because that\u2019s why Winstone Pulp International closed. If we want to have high-value incomes for our people, we need to have sustainable energy to do it. The member opposite said the international advice is that we phase out. Well, the former Government did not phase out; they just stopped. Now we are dealing with the preserve outcomes. We have to make sure we are making smart decisions, and we cannot double our renewable energy sources overnight. We have got to work with what we\u2019ve got so we don\u2019t have the perverse outcomes. It is very, very important that we work with what we\u2019ve got and we make sure that we have a productive economy and we can contribute to the global economy and grow our GDP, and this is all part of the sustainable plan. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c5b465e1903425387e60d77d1b89a8b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000026\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00223f962505e06d4bcf9984558a4db302f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f962505e06d4bcf9984558a4db302f4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Contracts of Insurance Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002285d67a2f25524d8f8864918ace7edb30\u0022\u003EContracts of Insurance Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022072b70dfb0a8444889debfa054c82f22\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000030\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 23 October.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022331d48e35bc84d2b965242c777b60332\u0022\u003EPart 2  Disclosure duties (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222d8317d4bc174570998246e1762afbaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d8317d4bc174570998246e1762afbaf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. The House is in committee for further consideration of the Contracts of Insurance Bill. When we were last considering the bill, we were debating Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 10 to 69, \u201CDisclosure duties\u201D; and Schedule 2. Once again, the question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00222f1b6d7fa12f4aa38214401c111a53f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f1b6d7fa12f4aa38214401c111a53f1\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Good morning, Madam Chair, and thank you for the opportunity to take a call in this debate. Since last the committee was debating this part, Part 2\u2014and my questions will be particularly around clauses 7 and 11, on which there are still some unanswered questions still remaining. The Labour members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee had been supporting this piece of legislation because we believe in a consolidated piece of insurance law in New Zealand. It\u2019s well overdue, and it\u2019s something that is much needed in this area, but there were some major issues which we felt needed to be addressed at this stage and haven\u2019t been amended. That is why we now will go part by part to consider the meaning of particularly those things which were changed not only by the select committee\u2019s consideration, in response to submitters, but also by the Minister and his changes from the previous Government\u2019s work on a prior iteration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow, I bring the Minister first to the unanswered questions around the conflict of laws point. Before the House rose, we were in consideration of the impact of clause 7\u2019s changes on small businesses, particularly the meaning of the change to clause 7(2)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd2b6cb7554454cbeb48de6fb73a1ed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member explain\u2014clause 7 is in Part\u00A01.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa37a7c48cc94b5f974f6656fa6b4782\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Madam Chair. I was intending to speak to clause 11, and I will do so now. Thank you for your indulgence, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EClause 11 has been deleted, which walks back an important provision in this bill, which was a consumer protection, and it related to setting out what the meaning of consumer insurance contracts are here. The reason I was mistakenly bringing the Minister back to our discussions previously in the committee about that clause is that it has an impact not only on consumers but also on small businesses and anyone who\u2019s not included in the definition of the contracts of insurance as they are now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Minister needs to give the committee a better understanding of how this will impact not only on consumers but on small businesses, particularly now, under the new definition of what a consumer insurance contract is. If we\u2019re not then carving out the way that these contracts will impact on businesses\u2014and also those businesses that rely on insurance contracts\u2014to then pass on the benefit of an indemnity to their customers or clients, say, if they\u2019re a lawyer or an accountant, how that will impact on consumers downstream? The effect of removing that clause 11\u2014though there are other provisions in the bill, it never takes it back up to that protection that was allowed by clause 11, in Part 2. We\u2019ll start there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00220583c1534b83436cb8741c80ab25ea14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220583c1534b83436cb8741c80ab25ea14\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to be here again. I note just for the committee that Robert Merton KC, an eminent scholar from the UK, is following this debate very closely, Minister. He expresses some disappointment in some of your decisions but is gratified that some of the suggestions that he made\u2014and I understand he\u2019s been in touch with the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2014have been adopted, but he has been in touch and is very interested in the progress of the debate. I did have to explain to him that the Minister hasn\u2019t yet adopted any of the Amendment Papers on the Table, but there is still time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI did want to talk to clause 30, which has an amendment in respect of it, and that is the clause relating to burden of proof. It notes there in the bill itself that the insurer has the burden of proof that a qualifying misrepresentation was deliberate or reckless\u2014and that\u2019s normal, that\u2019s actually just the civil standard of proof. Anyone who wants to assert something naturally has the job of showing that that is the case. It\u2019s not for an insured policyholder simply in response to \u201CYou told fibs.\u201D to prove that they didn\u2019t. That\u2019s well and good, but my Amendment Paper just goes and really reflects what is in some of the common law, and that is that the standard of proof takes into account the seriousness of the allegations and, essentially, the likelihood of it occurring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy amendment suggests that an additional subclause (3) is inserted, which would state that \u201CWhere the insurer claims there is a deliberate or reckless misrepresentation the standard of proof is that the court must be satisfied on the balance of probabilities taking into account the seriousness of the allegation and the gravity of the consequences.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EEssentially, if what\u2019s being asserted is a fraudulent lie, then that\u2019s a very serious allegation and there\u2019s a strong presumption against that happening. It\u2019s not a criminal presumption. It\u2019s really important to note that this isn\u2019t kind of beyond reasonable doubt, but it\u2019s saying that it\u2019s on the balance of probabilities, but in determining how likely it is that that would happen, you have to kind of take cognisance of the fact that people don\u2019t lie in their insurance policies as a matter of course. The reason for that is there are very serious consequences. When balancing the scales of evidence, you need to recognise that tipping on the scales against that being the case\u2014the fact that people don\u2019t lie\u2014and then look at the evidence presented by the insurer that there may have been a lie and weigh it accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, burden of proof and onus are always a little tricky. It\u2019s also important because it\u2019s not some kind of sliding scale; it is still just balance of probabilities, but it\u2019s really clear in the cases that you need to be alert to the fact that this is an unlikely thing to happen. My concern is this: if you\u2019re going to codify burden of proof by putting it in the legislation here, then you need to also codify the kind of common law gloss on that, because it\u2019s going to look like that\u2019s it, and there is no more. It\u2019s clearly not the case, and there have been plenty of decisions both overseas and in New Zealand that do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t go on. I got told off by one of the former Chairs for just trying to fill five minutes and I\u2019ll wait\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ba48d18b32416a9d24edba4204eb28\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Short, sharp questions are really good. Thank\u00A0you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9330cc46e6a468bacf9f0192b1ecbad\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for the Minister to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7ad1ab95e334815bd9998087b1bfd2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7ad1ab95e334815bd9998087b1bfd2e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just first of all, just responding to Ms Williams\u2019 question, she was a very active participant in our last round, but I think without trying to highlight it, she wasn\u2019t here for the discussion around clause 11. We traversed that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc51538258b74324bdf19c28e538acc4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It might be better to say that she may not have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e72000445c5741bdb6217e68bce15eb1\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: She may not have been available to hear it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222556a4e549054962b8fc3ef1de8f3f03\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227624939ec9d8462fbf0ad229393b688d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but I know she was a very active participant. With regard to that new clause raised by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, I think the first driving clause is clause 30(1), \u201CThe insurer has the burden of proving that a qualifying misrepresentation was deliberate or reckless.\u201D That\u2019s a pretty important statement. That\u2019s one of the clear things that this bill seeks to do\u2014is to be clear about the obligation of the insurer not only to make sure that documentation is clear but that the insurer has to ask the right question. It\u2019s not up to the policyholder to determine what was right or wrong. That\u2019s a key part of the change, and this is sort of the third leg to that. Quite simply, in response to your amendment, it\u2019s simply not needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI note that the member has proposed in a number of his amendments that he seeks to define the role of how the courts should approach the different pieces of litigation, should it get to that. We are not proposing to do that. It\u2019s very clear what the principles are and it\u2019s common practice, and the approach of the bill is to leave it to the courts to decide. There is a normal civil burden of proof. That\u2019s why the bill has operated at that level and it\u2019s consistent throughout in adopting that. Leave the courts to make their own decision. The framework is there to be very clear about what the operating framework is for that decision making, but that\u2019s been the approach of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u00221b41b939d7534b23a7352f2b61536c1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b41b939d7534b23a7352f2b61536c1b\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning. I really take the Minister\u2019s comments about wanting clarity with this bill, and I would love to hear from the Minister whether he would consider the adoption of this amendment to clause 14. This is clause 14(2A), which seeks to replace the word \u201Cdishonestly\u201D from (2A). This is \u201CA misrepresentation made dishonestly must always be taken as showing lack of reasonable care.\u201D Now, the Green Party proposed to replace this word with \u201Cfraudulently\u201D. We\u2019re doing this because the word \u201Cfraudulently\u201D sets a more appropriate, clear, and specific standard for policyholders to actually show reasonable care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, we know that these policyholders have this duty of reasonable care not to make a misrepresentation when actually entering into these insurance contracts. An honest mistake, really, I don\u2019t think, should be grounds to deny insurance cover. The bill actually previously stated that misrepresentation made fraudulently must be taken as a lack of reasonable care. However, we really disagree with the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s change to this to replace \u201Cfraudulently\u201D with the weaker and vaguer term of \u201Cdishonestly\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re really clear about, when it came to submissions that came before select committee, was the submission from the Insurance Council of New Zealand, and they argued that fraud and dishonesty are really different concepts. They stated that\u2014and this is a quote from their submission\u2014\u201CDishonesty and fraud are related but distinct concepts. Dishonesty is a broad term that refers to actions that are not honest or lack integrity and can manifest in many ways, including lying, omitting important information, or otherwise misleading someone.\u201D, whereas they say, \u201CDishonesty does not necessarily involve a deliberate attempt to deceive for personal gain.\u201D Now, this is really serious definition content, and I think it\u2019s really important that we take the advice of the experts in this field and actually clarify these definitions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI\u2019d love to hear from the Minister whether he would consider the adoption of this amendment to improve the clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224f2c0ebe84f94cb68c234c52700dc823\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f2c0ebe84f94cb68c234c52700dc823\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Again, we\u2019ve actually traversed this statement. I\u2019ve discussed it before, but just to reiterate what I covered previously: it is an important definition, and the member\u2019s right to raise it, but there are different tests and they\u2019re quite distinct, and one has a criminal implication; one has a civil implication. Fraud is used in civil compared to criminal cases, so the meaning is much less clear. The criminal standard of fraud describes crimes for personal gain or depriving someone of something by deceit. This implies criminal behaviour proved to a criminal standard of proof\u2014which is different from civil, by the way\u2014and which would not be appropriate here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe civil law standard of fraud, which we have focused on\u2014why it is in civil law. It\u2019s been quite deliberate why we\u2019ve used this definition. The test is different, and it\u2019s actually much, much more appropriate, because we\u2019re not talking about criminal stuff; we\u2019re talking about a civil thing. Actually, like the bill, the UK legislation uses \u201Cdishonestly\u201D to discourage deliberate wrongdoing. So, again, I\u2019ll just reiterate: we have covered it, but it is quite a deliberate approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2cea1718e704762998a29f5971eafeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2cea1718e704762998a29f5971eafeb\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to\u00A0take the Minister to Schedule 2. The empowering provisions in the underlying Act are\u00A0sections 27 and 52 for Schedule 2. It is in this Part 2 that we would be debating Schedule\u00A02.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn Schedule 2, the first part that I want to ask him about is clause 2. It does relate to the question that Lan Pham has posed and one of the amendments that Labour members indicated was a priority amendment for us, which is the question of \u201Cfraudulent\u201D or \u201Cdishonesty\u201D and what is the appropriate standards. We disagree with the Minister very strongly that \u201Cdishonesty\u201D is the appropriate standard, when, in fact, \u201Cfraudulently\u201D was used in a prior iteration of the legislation. The question I want to ask him is about, now, if we\u2019re speaking about insurer\u2019s remedies for qualifying misrepresentations or breach, how the change from \u201Cfraudulent\u201D or that standard to one of \u201Cdishonesty\u201D then plays into what the appropriate remedies are, as described in clause 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EClause 2(a) gives the insurer the ability to avoid the contract and refuse all claims, but the question that I want to pose to the Minister is the original standard for what is a qualifying breach required a standard of fraud. In a fraudulent situation, you have a consumer, say, or someone making a claim under a contract for insurance using a document to deceive another party in order to gain something of benefit to them. That is the fraud standard. Then that standard that\u2019s described for insurer\u2019s remedies at clause 2(a) in Schedule 2 would have meant that a refusal of claims and the avoidance of the contract would have been related to that fraud in some way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe example that I\u2019ll pose for the Minister to engage with is\u2014and I\u2019m interested in his views on this: if someone like me, who has a contract for insurance for my car, my home and contents, and my home\u2019s value with one particular insurer, was to make a mistake on one of, say, my disclosures to do with my car, would the \u201Cdishonesty\u201D standard apply to my other contracts of insurance\u2014whether that would apply to, say, a claim for the roof of my home in a weather and storm event?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn the case where the primary legislation sets out a \u201Cfraudulent\u201D standard, in that situation, I have committed absolutely no fraud, because I have not intended to deceive an insurer and get a benefit for myself by making a mistake with my car insurance, on a benefit to me related to my home insurance. But, in the context of now a standard of \u201Cdishonesty\u201D on both counts of the disclosure\u2014and then, in Schedule 2, a \u201Cdishonesty\u201D standard related to the insurer\u2019s remedies\u2014do we now have a situation where any dishonesty in an insurance relationship voids the entire relationship? The initial legislation surely was not drafted, when the intention of the legislation as it was drafted was to protect consumers, to create a situation where disclosures in one kind of insurance or disclosures on a particular thing might impact your entire cover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis might happen not just in that context of cover in one situation for another kind of contract with the same insurer; it might be that you\u2019ve made a disclosure even in your health insurance about your health that had no intention to get cover for yourself in some way. It might be, say, a health insurance contract between me and my husband, where my husband is the insurance holder\u2014this is a real situation for me, because he is the primary insurance holder and I tried to claim on it the other day and the insurance company only wanted to deal with him. What\u2019s that about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn the situation where the person who has made the disclosures is giving the most honest and most factual information that they possibly can, but they are under the wrong impression or there is some dishonesty there because they have come to the situation with clean hands but they have given the wrong information with absolutely no intention to receive a benefit that they were not entitled to, can it possibly be the case that this Part 2 in Schedule 2 creates the wrong standard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00221881543f245c43b7bcea7d394b7878af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221881543f245c43b7bcea7d394b7878af\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and it\u2019s just good to move on. Can I say this is a very complex piece of legislation and the Minister\u2019s done a great job in picking up my good work and coming up with many hundreds of clauses which deserve careful examination, given the importance to the commercial sector and everyday New Zealanders. I\u2019m very glad to be here and to talk to clause 35, \u201CWhat must be disclosed\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, most of that clause is pretty straightforward, but there\u2019s one which I think deserves further elucidation, and that\u2019s in clause 35(2)(c). My amendment identifies that\u2014and that\u2019s that the insurer\u2014sorry, let me go back a step to clause 35(1)(a), to what the insured ought to know. There\u2019s a real question in these \u201Cought to know\u201D propositions, because the question is this: is it what that policyholder\u2014to use the modern word\u2014ought to know, or is it what a reasonable and objective policyholder ought to know? That\u2019s two quite different standards. If you think of your reasonable objective policyholder or reasonable person test\u2014or if you want to take the Fair Trading Act framing, the slightly dim consumer\u2014the fact of the matter is that there are some policyholders who the insurer should know are less adept than others. They may be people with English as a second language or who have very modest educational achievement and present in a quite different manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy proposal is, rather than just saying that the policyholder \u201Cought to know\u201D, to replace that to reflect the fact that it\u2019s not an objective reasonable policyholder test, which is, essentially, a gendered and race-based test, because you\u2019re like \u201COK, let\u2019s take a white bloke and what they ought to know.\u201D That\u2019s actually where the common law has come from in that. The man on the Clapham omnibus is the reasonable test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e4bed5aa524461791b2e9228f0658cf\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: The wife should have known everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281141986ebbb48f0ab3f4d4b2448aa2b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: I think that\u2019s right, Arena Williams. So replace it, to recognise that it\u2019s what that policyholder \u201Cought to know\u201D and introduce a subjective element. My proposed amendment is to change \u201Cor ought to know\u201D and insert \u201Cor that a policyholder of the kind and in the position of the policyholder would reasonably be expected to know\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s actually a much fairer test, because it then means that, if someone makes a mistake and they don\u2019t know it, but a reasonable policyholder would\u2014a reasonable policyholder would know that you\u2019re expected to provide this information or that a car of that kind has this defect, or whatever it might be\u2014then the question isn\u2019t whether I, as a reasonable policyholder; it\u2019s whether that particular person, in those instances. And it cuts the other way. This is the problem with sophisticated people taking advantage of consumer law. If you\u2019re a very clever business person and you know all about insurance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5863806d6934e6e85b58edffc2253ce\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What about a clever lawyer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cc2684be6b644b7a02279132e204dc5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you\u2014you\u2019re expected to know more. It\u2019s a much fairer test and, actually, it doesn\u2019t anti-insure in any way. It simply says it\u2019s contextual and that\u2019s a much more modern and appropriate approach to take to that question. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002224b3ffb9373f4152b76015ef6ee65f2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224b3ffb9373f4152b76015ef6ee65f2e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to deal with perhaps that one, which is an amendment from Reuben Davidson\u2014I think that\u2019s the one you were referring to. Look, this has had a lot of consideration about whether the use of the term \u201Cought to know\u201D\u2014and there\u2019s obviously a proposal in the amendment. Look, \u201Cought to know\u201D is an important term that is actually defined in clause 44, as, no doubt, the member knows. This requires policyholders to conduct a reasonable search of available information, which is a key element of fair presentation duty. Now, that\u2019s a really important part, and what we\u2019ve adopted here is in line with the UK model. I think we\u2019re in good space, adopting both the UK approach but also making sure that we\u2019ve got a clear definition in clause 44.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI just want to return to Ms Williams\u2019 question, which, again, I\u2019ve actually dealt with on a number of occasions. Just briefly, to deal with this, a civil law standard of fraud is wide. In civil law, fraud is knowing a statement is false or recklessly not caring whether it\u2019s correct or not. Obviously, the \u201Cdishonest\u201D approach is a high threshold. It would require intent and not capture consumers simply being careless or making an honest mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think, just moving right back up, what we\u2019ve sought to do in this bill is to be very clear that the obligation on the insurers, first of all, is to present policies in an easy-to-understand presentation so you don\u2019t have to look through lots of terms and conditions.  The second key issue is it is up to the insurer to ask the right questions. It\u2019s not for the policyholder, whether it\u2019s you or a husband, to determine what is the right answer\u2014\u201CDid I have my tonsils out, do I have to disclose that in a health application, is it relevant or not?\u201D That\u2019s not the obligation of the consumer or policyholder. This is the most important shift of this bill: to move the obligation to the insurer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe third major part of this bill is being clear that, in the event that someone has filled out a form and it\u2019s unclear what the position is, we have been clear about the scale of the remedies and how that should be done. If there\u2019s gross negligence on behalf of the policyholder or recklessness or whatever, then the insurer has no obligation to pay the claim. If there was an honest mistake made but it wouldn\u2019t have had any direct bearing on whether the insurer accepted the policy or not, then the policy amount will be paid out in whole. If there was an element that, if the insurer had known about it, it might have resulted in a different premium, then obviously that premium adjustment will be made and deducted from the due amount, but ultimately there will be a payment made. Being absolutely clear about the three areas when the insurer has to pay out and when they do not is a key, third, important part of this bill. I think we\u2019ve struck a good balance with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00229681d4e42f2c4a6f9319eb2ca36b6491\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229681d4e42f2c4a6f9319eb2ca36b6491\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229369edca4d794b98b11f1fb6f5415936\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022311ef65bf0d24d0f9667ea527ff8902d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022311ef65bf0d24d0f9667ea527ff8902d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 11 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225143d38e47154460a66afb7a6fff13c6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002289e45443f6834ec2813cad9ea067ed95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289e45443f6834ec2813cad9ea067ed95\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new paragraphs (c) and (d) in clause 12(1) be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229f1eaffeec41462db6af367d79bf106f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022512a77260d0f4610a901bd9d4b95ffa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022512a77260d0f4610a901bd9d4b95ffa1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s amendment to clause 14 set out on Amendment Paper 107 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002279c5ebf3ae344b7aad7a8ab881e56953\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223efbf7dad99a4df0bc0b3b9c00be6bd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223efbf7dad99a4df0bc0b3b9c00be6bd5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 amendment to clause 14 set out on Amendment Paper 109 is ruled out of order as being the same as an amendment previously not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s three tabled amendments inserting new subclauses (4) to (6) in clause 14 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224bd6d01f23d4493293e07d1ceec5655e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223a1f2a0876464cae9d76e1dfa9a11408\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a1f2a0876464cae9d76e1dfa9a11408\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new subclause (3) in clause 30 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f126ee71c4dc4025a2da4490a86c2723\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad06c63596d24d34b1913c99f3baae03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad06c63596d24d34b1913c99f3baae03\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Reuben Davidson\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 35(1)(a) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cb5a323ad71b498faecb84f12e299bb7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227e35628282b846febd129c05322e3e57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e35628282b846febd129c05322e3e57\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Reuben Davidson\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 36(1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225298da2bed994df09e5ef63300021ef4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224cc5f1d8485e4df9b57eff1027533637\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cc5f1d8485e4df9b57eff1027533637\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 37 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223466b314b9d74198aa4897d46948180a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022af7ad6062b7e4178a9b1a8c74e37af80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af7ad6062b7e4178a9b1a8c74e37af80\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Reuben Davidson\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 38 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002288f42bbfeb5c4023abfc1a673e06276d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022851de827d52a45d7b34609d71b61fead\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022851de827d52a45d7b34609d71b61fead\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Reuben Davidson\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 40(2)(a) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d557edad329e4e91bd61465d1475c8db\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228978faed67054731a860d8b78aea295d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228978faed67054731a860d8b78aea295d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is Reuben Davidson\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new paragraph (c) in clause 42 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220ffb442e680a45fc99dbf496a48493f7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022667a14c9089340d19f8aad92a0d3b896\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022667a14c9089340d19f8aad92a0d3b896\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 43(2)(c) is ruled out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new subclause (3) in clause 46 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227f658e6f5bdd4e149985dffd92dd576d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002285e29e2e57b9462fb5a370ae3600c8a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285e29e2e57b9462fb5a370ae3600c8a6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new paragraph (c) in clause 47 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b1a2aca8b67643f2968d4207f620683b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022245aba089d574db5a1c741085a20788c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022245aba089d574db5a1c741085a20788c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 50A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ad6d500a1ad942119daff959252d7f27\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002278c58da2e16444e38a1401447601f385\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278c58da2e16444e38a1401447601f385\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment amending clause 52(1)(b) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c337ba718ba34b33a224cb874aecd1ef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222a40443b6965482b98e547b7c7066c7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a40443b6965482b98e547b7c7066c7b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment amending clause 56 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c90dc1e2f5349c59e2145a9371ab571\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227fdc101ff45a4467ae09093b51d1de16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fdc101ff45a4467ae09093b51d1de16\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new subparagraph (iii) in clause 57(a) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a24b95eeb5ca41eb8789322043d0d233\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022862d16495d614c0eadc6b80aded0132e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022862d16495d614c0eadc6b80aded0132e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new subparagraph (iii) in clause 58(2)(b) be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c7632ad5e4bf408d80373deeb7817b13\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022efaf09643fd64c98ad0931cfe69347d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efaf09643fd64c98ad0931cfe69347d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new subparagraph (iii) in clause 59(2)(b) be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c43cf885efd2439f83c7e50b87ef683a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c55d1f8db9234c539d973e3274e971cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c55d1f8db9234c539d973e3274e971cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment replacing clause 60 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002295c7d818b70b4cb28ba05d10bbeabb4c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8ff431aab4844d192ae38a803bad22f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8ff431aab4844d192ae38a803bad22f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 61(1)(a) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022667cf49c75514ec491bd5d7c6e2d130f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220e2c6362d33646c18f342d2c96c30c14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e2c6362d33646c18f342d2c96c30c14\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 62(1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227f424b85bf97441d8e6cbe77517cf1b9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226aa9123b5ec448e48cccc0f993a6bfc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aa9123b5ec448e48cccc0f993a6bfc4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 62A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b85ebb50b78d4dea9e87a11104520a97\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb5d44442d44451a8baf68833674cdee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb5d44442d44451a8baf68833674cdee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 amendments set out on Amendment Paper 110 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225042817cba92415fb816aee7ef514051\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaf82081866546139cdabf8360b0f39b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaf82081866546139cdabf8360b0f39b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment deleting clause 63(5) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002243f3de13a1654c568a8934991696fde4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3f7af75fb294ceb9045bca26c316dcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3f7af75fb294ceb9045bca26c316dcf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 68(3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002212ede35785a74e4290f7d63eb276a4fd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002235211afefa3342ee88468af4b63df8c2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b48dd4a7705048809f7f8f653490c42d\u0022\u003EPart 3  Contracts of insurance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220520dd6c72e244c7b822d6e16a2fbbc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220520dd6c72e244c7b822d6e16a2fbbc9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 3. Part 3 is the debate on clauses 70 to 99, \u201CContracts of insurance\u201D; and Schedule 3. The question is that Part 3 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022effecbf8a32c4491ad2d2e87b4ad3795\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022effecbf8a32c4491ad2d2e87b4ad3795\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just would seek your guidance. On this side of the Chamber, we\u2019re a little perplexed as to why the Chair considered the debate to be exhausted on Part 2\u2014in particular, we were meticulous in not repeating, keeping our speeches to the point, and progressing through the part in a very orderly fashion. While the Minister may have repeated some policy principles time and again, the questions put to him\u2014and this is a detailed bill and we consider that it requires considerable scrutiny. As we approach Part 3, we certainly want an opportunity to go through each and every clause that we consider is worthy of debate, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba569c3dfea14a3fbc1854f53df4428a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba569c3dfea14a3fbc1854f53df4428a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for the point of order, Dr Webb. As I was here listening in the Chair, yes, I could see from the Amendment Papers that there was a little bit of a structure, but the questions were becoming very repetitive and a lot of it was deemed to have been answered. And given that we\u2019ve actually had a session on this back in the last\u2014I also had the boxes of things that have been discussed last time, and it seemed to me that we weren\u2019t covering any new material, but if the members are clear in terms of Part 3 and are making it very clear that it\u2019s not repetitive, and you are looking at it clause by clause, then that is a process that we do look at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2221a38fa3e4b8cabe02edc0f6825de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2221a38fa3e4b8cabe02edc0f6825de\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order\u2014thank you, Madam Chair. Just to get further clarification, because I think there\u2019s a distinction here between the Minister giving repetitive answers and then the questions being repetitive in and of themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d674ac9a0dff4a4387b61a067c73bf03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d674ac9a0dff4a4387b61a067c73bf03\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I actually was finding that some of the questions were overlaying some of the questions that had been previously answered. We have a sheet up here of the previous debate as well, and I also accept that because we\u2019ve had a break in parliamentary process between that and now\u2014I was deeming that we were starting to get repetitive. As we start Part 3, I\u2019m very happy for Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s suggestion of following the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022846bb989a9f84e69b24daba173cdbe3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022846bb989a9f84e69b24daba173cdbe3c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E May I just clarify: would it be helpful if we continue pointing out which clauses and subparts we speak to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230768ceccb5445368c0bd4c885cb4ee0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It would be very helpful. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cd7be4442d84adcb232084eaa55eb55\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Of course\u2014we can do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002216b6a8677a394497af9d6ac1afefc397\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216b6a8677a394497af9d6ac1afefc397\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00225d09e8b24b6445f59385653d9421beab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d09e8b24b6445f59385653d9421beab\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to take the first call in this debate on Part 3, which I\u2019m sure will be a lengthy debate as members on this side of the Chamber want to traverse the issues that have been raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy question is about clause 70, particularly about subclause (2), but before I ask this question, I need to give some further context, because we\u2019ve had the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs answer time and time and time again about the rationale for a change from the previous standard of \u201Cfraudulently\u201D to \u201Cdishonestly\u201D, and he\u2019s reiterated that it is the appropriate standard in his mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMany of the questions in this part, including my question on this, will relate back to that change\u2014it was in a previous version of the bill\u2014that prior change which has created, in the bill, other parts of the framework. I\u2019m not asking him whether that change was appropriate; he\u2019s answered that it was appropriate over and over again. I\u2019m asking him whether it is still good for consumers, whether this law, in fact, advances the position of consumers under this bill, which is something that he has said to media and that he has said to this House and that he has assured parliamentarians of in other statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m asking whether the changes to these clauses under Part 3\u2014when they interact with the other changes in the bill which have already been traversed\u2014are now the right changes to make, given that change was made, given that this bill was drafted around fraudulence being required as the standard of mistake on the part of consumers; whether now the protections that are in place for consumers are strong enough; and whether the remedies available to insurers are too generous, given that the standard is now different in other places of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ETo clause 70(2)\u2014this is a question that genuinely had different understandings in the Finance and Expenditure Committee room around what the submitters were asking for here. My first question to the Minister is: does he know what submission this change arose from and which stakeholders were calling for this change, and is he satisfied that this is a good change for consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThen, secondly, to actually understand the point and clarify for the committee the different understandings of what this meant, because it is surely a subject of litigation in future: does a reasonable time period for an insurer to settle a claim\u2014a reasonable time that we might expect a homeowner to receive their payments in a situation like the Christchurch earthquakes or a reasonable time for an Aucklander to get their roof fixed in the Auckland floods\u2014as a whole get considered, and then does the time to assess the information get included within that reasonable time frame? Or does this change mean that there is a reasonable time to assess the information and then there is a reasonable time to make the decisions as the insurer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is material because what this bill should seek to do, if it is in the interests of consumers and actively advances the position that consumers are in, is make the time frames condensed. It should give every New Zealander some confidence that their insurance claims will be dealt with in a timely manner. He should be able to stand up and give the committee a simple assurance that this reasonable time frame does condense the time frame, and also that the reasonable time frame is to be assessed as a whole and that getting the information doesn\u2019t step that out at all. And it should be included when the court considers what a reasonable time frame for consumers would be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThey should consider the whole time, based on what kind of consumer we\u2019ve got here\u2014are they vulnerable, are they a little old lady, and what would be the appropriate time frame we would expect to have the claim solved in?\u2014and then carve out the time it took them to get the information. It doesn\u2019t matter if she didn\u2019t have her documents in order. It doesn\u2019t matter if it was difficult to contact her on the phone because her power was out\u2014that there is a legitimate responsibility there for the insurers to make sure that they\u2019ve got boots on the ground, that they have got people making the assessments on time, and that they are in there working with consumers no matter what the circumstances are, because that is what consumers should expect in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225602703c18ab4032b0b087bd19db61e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225602703c18ab4032b0b087bd19db61e5\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Looking at Subpart 1, \u201CImplied term about payment of claims\u201D; and clause 70, \u201CImplied term about payment of claims\u201D, and then subclauses (1) to (4), particularly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225262ce7741a649f9b21d8cb86f3d5408\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you repeat those subclauses again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d20f868204fe4f909e5809ac55d5ae1e\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. I\u2019m looking at subclauses (1) to (3) of clause 70 particularly. I wanted to unpack and follow on from Arena Williams\u2019 contribution and also ask what considerations the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs has given around the impact on claimants, in relationship to what may be considered a reasonable time to assess and investigate claims. Obviously, not all claims or types of insurance, when a claim is being investigated, will have such a strong flow-on effect in terms of someone\u2019s ability to, for example, make ends meet. I do note that as it\u2019s written, there seems to be, I guess, a lack of consideration around, for example, equity issues around the impact on the claimant. I wanted to get assurances from the Minister as to whether he thinks that the way that it is written will adequately take that into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen, following on from Arena Williams\u2019 comments, I\u2019m also interested to understand the onus that is placed on those insurance companies to actually be adequately resourced to ensure that those claims can be investigated promptly and do not disadvantage consumers. So far, the way that subclause (3) is written, it takes into account things like type of insurance. I\u2019m interested to know whether that specifically could take into account my earlier question. Then there\u2019s other stuff around the size and complexity of the claim; the compliance with any relevant legislation; factors outside of the insurer\u2019s control; and whether a sum due in respect of a part of the claim that is not in dispute has been paid; and then whether the insurer has reasonable grants for disputing the claim, particularly if there is language that seems to be more on the side of the insurance company rather than the consumer. I guess I\u2019m just concerned about the reality that many consumers could be facing hardship while those claims are being investigated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIf we look at the Auckland floods, that\u2019s a really good example of where people had to dip into the savings and had to get into debt while their claims were being resolved. The way that the language here is written, if I take the Auckland floods as an example, I simply cannot see how consumers\u2019 ability to literally sustain themselves will be factored in in the language here. I would like some clarification to reassure consumers that their ability to make ends meet, preventing people entering hardship, will be factored in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo, just to recap, this is very specifically on clause 70, and particularly subclause (3), but I guess subclauses (1) and (2) would also be factored in into my questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2de8fcd69044f54bf940001b7369316\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2de8fcd69044f54bf940001b7369316\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I have a very short question, in the spirit of the committee stage, and it relates to clause 70 in \u201Creasonable time\u201D. What is the remedy? If there\u2019s a breach, what\u2019s the remedy? And will the Minister adopt my amendment, which simply states \u201Conce a breach has occurred, interest is payable on the insurance payable\u201D? It seems to be a very simple, fair remedy. It applies in life insurance, why should it not apply in every other kind of insurance, particularly when the payment is clearly due? Will the Minister adopt my amendment so that interest is payable on late payment of insurance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022301b163da6334e5b8702ca37540e5bf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022301b163da6334e5b8702ca37540e5bf3\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Look, the members have raised very important points. I think everyone in this committee wants to make sure that policyholders get paid out in a timely manner\u2014there is no debate about that. Everyone in this committee will want to make sure that policyholders get paid out in reasonable time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe definition of \u201Creasonable time\u201D is a commonly understood legal term\u2014that\u2019s why we\u2019ve done it. I see there\u2019s a couple of other amendments that have been put up as well. The issue we\u2019ve tried to deal with is that what is \u201Creasonable time\u201D depends on the circumstance. Just to address Ms Williams\u2019 question specifically: yes, taking into account time to collect information is all part of that, together with the assessment of the claim itself. When a court will be assessing what is \u201Creasonable\u201D or have regard for both those items, it is not a separation between the two of them. Sometimes, claims will be complex and they will require a lot of documentation; others will be simple claims and they will not require a lot of time. That\u2019s why we don\u2019t want to adopt anything like a 12-month period: because, in some cases, that would be manifestly unfair to the policyholder. In other cases where it\u2019s a complex claim, that would be possibly a difficult task for any insurer to actually meet. It\u2019s up to the courts to decide it. We\u2019re very clear about the principle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EJust dealing with the Hon Dr Webb\u2019s question around compensation. There is, under clause 70, policyholders have the right for late payment. They can apply for it. If they deem that there is an issue about delay\u2014unnecessary, undue delay\u2014then there is clearly provided for in clause 70 that people can apply and get interest late payment under the Interest on Money Claims Act 2016, to be specific. This bill does not interfere with that, but it obviously references that and brings it into context. That is the principle. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any dispute in the committee about making sure this happens promptly. I think we\u2019ve struck a good balance in making sure that insurers do act promptly but policyholders are also recompensed as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u002243080338c85f4c3e9c98f3fa44a8fa5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243080338c85f4c3e9c98f3fa44a8fa5d\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just seeking a short\u00A0call just to elicit some, I guess, basic, factual information from the Minister; just to\u00A0enable this committee to get the information and context to help us judge a\u00A0\u201Creasonable time\u201D. Can the Minister, please\u2014through the officials or if the Minister himself knows\u2014inform the committee what the shortest time has been to pay a claim, what the longest time\u00A0has been to pay a claim, and what the average time tends to be?\u00A0That would be, I guess, very helpful as we sort of explore this question around Part 3, clause\u00A070(1) to\u00A0(3). Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022faa1132c06cf48b69f2ebafb080058f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faa1132c06cf48b69f2ebafb080058f7\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t think we actually have a view on\u2014I\u2019m not sure, because that\u2019s a commercial view on it. Look, the point is that it needs to be reasonable in the context. As the member will see in clause 70(3), there are a whole list of items that will deal with the complexity and, therefore, what is deemed to be reasonable time\u2014and namely: \u201Cthe type of insurance:\u201D; \u201Cthe size and complexity of the claim:\u201D; the \u201Ccompliance with any relevant legislation or guidance:\u201D; \u201Cfactors outside the insurer\u2019s control:\u201D, because sometimes there are factors outside the insurer\u2019s control that would delay settlement of that claim; and also \u201Cwhether [in fact] a sum due in respect of a part of the claim that is not in dispute has been paid:\u201D, so maybe there\u2019s been an advanced payment\u2014so, again, there\u2019s another one as well. That is why we want to take a flexible approach. The courts are the best organisations to determine what is \u201Creasonable\u201D in these circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00223f148a97421e40a6908ff76638f3e44b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f148a97421e40a6908ff76638f3e44b\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s very timely that I speak at this time because of the discussion about remedy. I looked at the clause and I thought the first thing that I can see is that clause\u00A070(1) talks about \u201Can implied term\u201D, and in fact that seems to be a superfluous word because it does look to me like this is a term of every agreement not an implied term. I\u2019m interested in the use of that word because it does seem that what we\u2019re doing\u2014and I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s opinion on this\u2014is we\u2019re creating a couple of remedies later in the clause, which talks about what you can have, but everything else seems to be up to the parties to decide in the contract itself. I\u2019d be very keen to hear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe Minister talks about how he would see this play out if, in fact, there is a contract here and this is seen as an implied term. What happens if there are express terms in the contract which go to remedy and say, \u201CYou won\u2019t be getting this\u201D or \u201CYou will be getting that\u201D. This is your claim, so, yes, there is an issue later in the clause, from what I can see, where you\u2019ve got the right to enforce the payment and you\u2019ve got the right to the interest on the sum. But what happens if, in fact, the rights beyond that are not there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EMy understanding is you\u2019ve got people who are still waiting in Christchurch to be paid. If the contract denies other rights, is that as far as we\u2019re willing to go? I\u2019m not sure it\u2019s necessarily up to the courts to decide that if in fact in the contract you have expressed terms which limit the rights of the person beyond what we would consider reasonable in that circumstance. I\u2019m concerned about where we\u2019ve made the line here for your average consumer when the devil will be in the detail of the agreement, and people get creative about what they knock out of the suite of remedies that we would expect to be here. There\u2019s a time when it just becomes simply unreasonable. Is it going to become reasonable because there\u2019s an express term? Is it going to become an unreasonable remedy because it is put outside of the ambit by an express term?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like your comment, Minister, on the issue about the use to the word \u201Cimplied\u201D when we\u2019re actually saying it is a term. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea6296c8e5704c95a9ba8a137992fcc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea6296c8e5704c95a9ba8a137992fcc0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m a little bit surprised because I know the member is a lawyer and she of all people in the committee should know the value of the word \u201Cimplied\u201D. That means every contract\u2014every insurance contract\u2014has that as an express element of that contract. It\u2019s fundamental to every contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, obviously there will be examples where there may be contracting out on a specific insurance policy, but remember some of my earlier comments on Part 2. It\u2019s up to the insurer to make sure that those terms are written in an easy-to-understand manner. It\u2019s not the reference to lots of detail and terms and conditions. Part of the fundamental change in this bill is to make sure that policyholders are not surprised by express terms taking them out of that implication. But the implied term cuts across every contract\u2014and by putting that in clause 70(1), it means that policyholders can seek contractual damages for a breach. It\u2019s actually the best way of dealing with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002209e7723e72e64921a56901b221c178ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209e7723e72e64921a56901b221c178ce\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you\u2014I\u2019d just like to take you up on that. Yes, I\u2019m very familiar with the law around implied terms and the fact that an implied term is usually an unwritten term that\u2019s so obvious it goes without saying. We\u2019re not actually dealing with that here. We\u2019re dealing with something that\u2019s deemed a term in every agreement, and so this seems inappropriate wording to me, and in fact I would ask the Minister to consider an amendment that says it is a deemed term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThen, the issue I have raised beyond that\u2014which I would dearly love to look at\u2014is what we do about making sure it\u2019s a fair deal for the consumer beyond these terms, because there are couple of things here. Is that a fair enough deal? I would wonder about that, given the calculation of delay, for example. Is it a fair term when somebody has still not paid out a claim in Christchurch that we now actually look at penalties for punitive damages in that situation? And I do get that there is a reference to damages, but it looks like that is a case of whether your contract says it or not, and I\u2019m not sure about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIn many areas of the law, you\u2019d have this capacity for the judge to say \u201Cexemplary damages\u201D, \u201Cpunitive damages\u201D, or we\u2019d write it into the law that there was a penalty\u2014and I suspect we think there should be a penalty in this situation where you get calculated behaviour. Delay is probably the best friend of many lawyers as you just put it off and wear people down, and they die and they go bankrupt and they commit suicide. We really need to make sure we\u2019re signalling in the law if we\u2019re talking about something that is a deemed term, if we\u2019re saying, \u201CThat\u2019s it. You have to have it in. You\u2019re not getting out of this.\u201D That is an important thing to follow up with something that is really us directing the court what to do or giving the court power to do it, not letting one party weasel out of it in its terms and conditions, which can happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not suggesting anyone is not acting in good faith, by the way. I\u2019m saying that this is a situation where we are going to have to be careful because we are dealing with a range of vulnerable consumers that may be in a crisis in their life, which is that they\u2019ve lost all their property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002201d8d3e6c58c4532be2ad7a09318f961\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201d8d3e6c58c4532be2ad7a09318f961\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Just responding to the member again, I note that the use of the term \u201Cimplied term\u201D is very consistent. It is consistent with the UK approach\u2014it\u2019s given rise to no issue. I think it\u2019s pretty commonly understood, as I said before, as to what that means. It means it\u2019s a fundamental tenet of every contract that there needs to be a payment in a reasonable time. By writing that, it gives, as I said before, the policyholder the right to seek damages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAlso, clause 70 does not seek to legislate how the courts approach damages, because, again, I get the intent, and I made this point earlier to the Hon Dr Webb. Members opposite seem to be trying to anticipate how the courts will interpret each occasion and be specific about it. Their fundamental approach to the bill is to be clear about the principles that people need to be paid out in a reasonable time, and it is up to the court to decide what is reasonable in that circumstance. So that\u2019s why I think the approach in this bill is very appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022be0b41e673a54e92adb78d13ec62e67e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be0b41e673a54e92adb78d13ec62e67e\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I take the Minister\u2019s point that the intention of this legislation is to set out the approach very clearly, so I\u2019m asking him this in in good faith. Clause 71 of Part 3 is the arbitration provision that has been included in this legislation since the Labour Government first drafted it and since the formulation of what is an insurance contract that applies to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESince that definition has now changed, my question to him is: is he satisfied that clause 71 is the right formation for the arbitration provision, which excludes arbitration provisions being binding on policyholders specifically, now that he has changed clause 6, which is the meaning of a contract of insurance and the conflict of law provisions, particularly 7(2) that now relates to the broader section of non-consumer insurance contracts and not just the highly negotiated and highly commercial contracts of insurance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002245a55310c5754b77a716ace916b69e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245a55310c5754b77a716ace916b69e7f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to move to clause 72, which has always been a tricky area of insurance law. That\u2019s those clauses which set out a condition in the insurance policy about how a claim is to be made. Historically, those clauses could be used quite unfairly to deny cover, and the law generally has taken a substance-over-form approach so that even if a contract of insurance\u2014and I know claims-made policies are a little different; we\u2019ll come to those\u2014but contracts of insurance sometimes do say that a claim for motor vehicle damage must be made within 30 days, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe law has, for a long time, taken the approach that insurers can\u2019t rely on those clauses unless the breach of the clause has caused some loss to the insurer over and above the insurance claim. For example, they can no longer find the person who crashed into the car, and, therefore, they can\u2019t recover, and so on and so forth. Therefore, they can reduce the claim by the amount of detriment they\u2019ve suffered, and this seems to be reflected in clause 72. That seems to have roughly captured what I think was one of the Insurance Law Reform Act provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe difficulty I have is that the clause itself needs to be reasonable. You could conceivably have a clause which\u2014this is in one of my tabled amendments; I think it\u2019s in my name. But you could have a clause which says that you must make a claim for damage to your house within seven days and you\u2019ve got a situation where it was damaged by a third party who then absconds, so you meet the test, but the seven-day limit itself is unreasonable. My proposal is a new clause 72(3)(c), which says not only must the insurer be prejudiced and it would be inequitable but also, and the additional words are \u201CAnd the provision referred to in subsection (1) was in all of the circumstances reasonable given the nature of the insurance and the identity of the policyholder.\u201D It would actually be a bar on unreasonably tight time frames or methods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis would also cover where it says, \u201CYou must make a claim by turning up to the insurance company in a red jumper and making the claim in writing.\u201D Silly rules like that would be ruled out simply because they\u2019re unreasonable. Equally, notification should be able to be made in any way. A telephone call, an email, or an in-person claim should all be legitimate and reasonable. Unreasonable clauses, which unreasonably specify how the claim must be made and when, would be ruled out simply by that small addition. Again, I won\u2019t take up too much more time, but I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s approach to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002205235b0837d94a31b571655541180fac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205235b0837d94a31b571655541180fac\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Just in response to Ms Williams\u2019 question around clause 71, look, hey, this is a very longstanding provision that applies only to consumers, not to non-consumers. It maintains a status quo that arbitration clauses in them are not binding. That\u2019s a very common approach. It\u2019s always been that, and so we\u2019re pretty comfortable with that approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EJust with your clause 72, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, the first thing is this is a longstanding provision and we actually had no feedback, as I understand, during the select committee. Everyone seemed to be comfortable. Insurers are already prevented from relying on a time limit, unless it can show it\u2019s been prejudiced or this is inequitable. An additional reasonableness test is not required. I must note, I think you must have had an epiphany because, in your original bill, you had this wording but now you\u2019re seeking to change it with a tabled amendment. Obviously, you\u2019ve had some epiphany in more recent times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002201087bb1f71545afa00dac18bb8b24d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201087bb1f71545afa00dac18bb8b24d6\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E We get ourselves into some trouble in this committee stage, because we do need to refer back to previous changes that have changed I guess what you could call the net between where we are sort of creating consumer protections on one side and then creating surety for insurers to rely upon, in order to arrive at a balance that is appropriate in New Zealand law to codify what we have, and then step out for consumers their protections, which is what the Minister has told media and has told ordinary people in New Zealand is being done by this bill. It\u2019s right to interrogate the entire net and not only the provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m asking is not whether clause 71 is the same as what it was before; I\u2019m asking whether clause 71 is now both appropriate, in the Minister\u2019s view, and good for consumers, in the Minister\u2019s view, given his changes to clause 6 and clause 7, because those change who can use a consumer insurance contract. Now, where there were provisions that were designed to only apply to contracts of reinsurance, which are big insurance contracts that are negotiated between insurers of consumers and insurers of insurers\u2014and so there are lots of lawyers in the room, and we can design provisions around those which are really designed for two commercial parties with a meeting of the minds where they\u2019re equally powerful and well represented. And then we\u2019ve designed provisions which should only apply where there is a power imbalance. We\u2019ve changed that net in clauses 6, 7, and 8. Is the old provision at clause 71 appropriate, in his view, and is it good for consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00226d1e112bbdf149a2b775001566ac0631\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d1e112bbdf149a2b775001566ac0631\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder if I might talk now about claims-made policies, which is clause 73. There\u2019s just a little conundrum in there, because it does talk\u2014claims-made policies are generally considered to be broad liability policies; policies that builders, lawyers, architects would have about claims made against them. Claims-made policies are one method to define that the insurance covers the insured for claims made within a defined period of time. One of the difficulties is the interface between those policies and clause 72, which says you\u2019re not bound by when a claim is actually made. Obviously, the whole underlying way a claims-made policy works, the finances of it are that it\u2019s time-limited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe interface with that is kind of sorted out by clause 73, which gives a grace period. All that\u2019s well and good, but I\u2019m just concerned because many contracts of general insurance have a liability element as well. For example, a home policy, classic general insurance will also cover for liability. If you, I don\u2019t know, have a house fire, that\u2019s general damage and you\u2019re covered, but if it leaps next door and burns the house next door down, well, that next-door house isn\u2019t part of the insured property, but you\u2019re covered under your liability part of that policy, so it actually becomes a policy for liability. There\u2019s a danger in there, if it\u2019s got a clause relating to when a claim must be made, the period of insurance, that it falls within this clause 73, so all of a sudden clause 72 isn\u2019t going to work for the liability part of your general insurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy proposal is for the tabled amendment to be adopted which adds to that clause 73 at the end of subsection (2), \u201CAnd [the] cover for liability is not ancillary to other insurance (such as general insurance over property)\u201D. I\u2019m a bit worried there\u2019s a gap in there, and it would really be good to tidy that up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002266ae879761884c168e8a8f0adc26a754\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266ae879761884c168e8a8f0adc26a754\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to Ms Williams\u2019 question: yes, it is appropriate. In answer to Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment around clause 73: I\u2019m not keen to accept that and recommend we shouldn\u2019t, because the Law Commission actually proposed the change. The member\u2019s tabled amendment would actually reduce or narrow the scope of it, which actually would be a disadvantage to policyholders, so I think they\u2019re actually going to end up with a perverse outcome. That\u2019s why I don\u2019t think it\u2019s one that we\u2019d like to recommend, because we\u2019d like to have the wider definition that the Law Commission recommended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d02e6a9815d546bb804af68e0666d61b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d02e6a9815d546bb804af68e0666d61b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll just take a short call, if I may. It\u2019s actually a real irritant of mine that we get these fantastic consolidation bills, and yet we\u2019re still using terms that are 300 years old. I\u2019m looking at clause\u00A076, and who in the world other than some nobby lawyer would know what a \u201Cpro rata condition of average\u201D is\u2014and all of our nobby lawyers are nodding: \u201CYes, I know what a pro\u00A0rata condition of average is.\u201D Now, it\u2019s a perfectly simple thing\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and the\u00A0Chair is not going to know, Mr Bayly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1618d9bc2de4f3bbcc729e0d3defa84\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you repeat that again? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e67c4d156604c49a959fa9d94d8d378\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll tell you what it is. A pro rata condition of average is a clause that says that, if you insure half the value of an item, then if it\u2019s damaged not to its full value, you only get that proportion of the insurance proceeds. If you insure your house for $1 million and it\u2019s worth $2 million, and it\u2019s damaged to the extent of $500,000, then a pro rata condition of average says that you share the loss in the proportion that you insured it. You get half of the proceeds, and so you end up being underinsured\u2014and here I am explaining this, and that shouldn\u2019t be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EYou should be able to read a piece of legislation on a consumer policy and know what it means. Let\u2019s not use the words \u201Cpro rata condition of average\u201D\u2014and I\u2019m going to do you a favour. I\u2019ve got two amendments to amend clauses 76 and 77, which use this term. It should say, \u201Ca condition under which cover is granted in the proportion that the sum insured bears to the value of the interest insured\u201D. That\u2019s what a condition of average is. They\u2019re prohibited in home insurance\u2014as they should be\u2014but in commercial insurance, they\u2019re quite widely used, which avoids the insurer taking the first bit of the loss, and then the insured getting the benefit when it isn\u2019t the entire loss. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely insane that we\u2019re using the Latin \u201Cpro rata\u201D and \u201Ccondition of average\u201D, which is about as technical a term as you could possibly get. Can you tidy it up for us, Minister? Be a sport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229c791586eba3458fb373e263f4789081\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c791586eba3458fb373e263f4789081\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m mindful that we are jumping around on clauses. Before I go to clause 74, I did want to jump back on previous clauses that we\u2019ve contributed to, particularly because it hasn\u2019t been addressed. One of the things that I wanted to touch on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294f6202c281146d08bb3874c4c32077f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Which clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022346c2f50b5914c519e43cea682676229\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Issues that have arisen from clause 70, particularly subclauses (3) and (4), and then I\u2019ll go on to clause 74.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Minister, when addressing some of these issues, talked about how some of the tensions that we tried to unpack around \u201Creasonable time\u201D, if I recall correctly, his words were that \u201CThis has been canvased by the courts.\u201D I know that a lot of this relies on case law, like across the legislation, but, I guess, to me, the question was about whether the Minister thinks, particularly when it comes to consumer protection, that the weighing up of relying on case law versus, for example, having more prescribed language in the bill that actually gives certainty to consumers, is actually better for both parties but particularly for consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think, to me, for a consumer, having to rely on understanding what case law has said, to be able to understand what they should expect seems actually quite unreasonable, particularly when we think about the circumstances in which some of those claims could have been made\u2014say, after a natural disaster or an extreme whether event. It just seems to me that expecting a consumer to then go into case law, to get a sense of understanding of what \u201Creasonable\u201D has been previously determined by the courts just seems like actually quite a high barrier that we\u2019re setting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI go back to my question around the lack of consumer protections and the language of this bill in relationship to what is considered reasonable. My specific question\u2014I do think it\u2019s a new point\u2014is whether the Minister thinks that case law in relationship to consumer protections and defining \u201Creasonable time\u201D is actually good enough, considering, for example, that we will be seeing likely more insurance claims in relationship to extreme weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ENow, if I jump to clause 74, in relationship to \u201CInsurer not liable to pay greater cost\u201D, my concern would be that, again, it seems to that there is little consideration in the context in which, often, consumers will be lodging these claims. It seems to me that clause 74 is there to mostly end up protecting the companies rather than actually giving greater flexibility around the context in which consumers may be making those claims. I wanted to get a sense of understanding around how consumers can have certainty that if they\u2019re facing really strenuous circumstances\u2014again, I\u2019ll use extreme weather events as an example\u2014that clause 74 won\u2019t actually disadvantage them. There could be many reasons, particularly if we look at subclause (1)(b) and subclause (3) that these seem to mostly side with the insurers. I just want some clarity around how he thinks greater flexibility could be, if at all, given to consumers when strenuous circumstances arise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022df5f6bc993d24403933c88d9779aa4a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df5f6bc993d24403933c88d9779aa4a2\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to make sure that the committee has sufficient time to deal with Subpart 4A, which is a new subpart that comes under Part 3 of this legislation. It is brand new to the committee\u2019s consideration. It was not introduced at the first reading. It is an issue that arose from submissions, and the Finance and Expenditure Committee came to a reasonably bipartisan, cross-party consensus around including it. I want to explain for the Minister, before I ask him a question, why this issue is significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere is significant individual public health and scientific benefits associated with the use of genetic testing, whether undertaken for individual health reasons or medical research. However, as submitters made it clear to the select committee, there are individuals in New Zealand who are potentially forgoing lifesaving clinical and relevant genetic testing, or not participating in medical research involving genetic testing, for fear that it will impact on their ability to get insurance, particularly life insurance and health insurance. The reason for the inclusion here is to bring us not only in line with emerging international law on this issue but also to create an opportunity for the Minister to regulate in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is an issue where Labour members want to see the adoption of law in New Zealand to regulate this. We\u2019re very concerned about this issue and agree with submitters from the community of people who suffer from these genetic conditions that the Government should be regulating in this area and should be allowing sufferers of these conditions to have protection in the law. However, my question to the Minister is that this was a consensus-based position at the time\u2014that the select committee had based on submissions. Things have changed since the select committee heard that evidence. Australia has now decided to impose a five-year ban, with a review provision at the end, since the select committee was able to make those considerations. Has the Minister\u2019s thinking on this changed given the position of Australia now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002207d34d48962f4d1eb30de9b96d5942a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207d34d48962f4d1eb30de9b96d5942a4\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am going to be jumping around, so I will have to leave the Chamber, but I trust that actually my Green Party colleagues and our Labour counterparts will canvass the stuff between the sandwich. I\u2019m just going to jump to Subpart 4A on genetic testing, acknowledging that there\u2019s many other clauses that are yet to be touched on before that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b12d480587846e9be3f0cb2971bb116\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you repeat the subpart? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7e6fee8dae142b7b6397748574e36c2\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: New Subpart 4A on genetic testing. This has been a very contentious issue. I know that this will gather quite a lot of debate and there\u2019s other clauses to be debated, but specifically, on new Subpart 4A, I wanted to get the Minister\u2019s views on whether Australia\u2019s recent move to ban genetic testing when it comes to life insurance, and actually have the companies cede ground\u2014and support the recent moves by Australia\u2014has actually played any factors in how he\u2019s laid out new Subpart 4A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis is an issue where New Zealand is actually falling behind the rest of the world when it comes to how we legislate to protect consumers but actually use the most ethical policy to also protect disabled people. I\u2019ve got an amendment on this issue that would eventually, effectively, prohibit our country, relating to genetic testing\u2014and I think, to me, we had a lot of passionate submitters on this issue, but at the same time, Australia was having a very, very fulsome debate on the matter. Where they have landed is that, actually, a prohibition approach is the best way to move forward. I\u2019m really concerned that the way that new Subpart 4A is laid out won\u2019t keep up with the rest of the world that is now acknowledging that, actually, even having regulations may not be fit for purpose in terms of protecting consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI know that, in the second reading, the Minister interjected and said to not worry, when I talked about the resourcing of those regulations, but I would still like the Minister to none the less actually properly unpack how he sees those regulations being adequately resourced\u2014well, the people who will be in charge of regulating the stuff in new Subpart 4A to do its work adequately and to meet what the legislation prescribes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI also wanted to ask\u2014so this is, I guess, my big third question\u2014what meetings has he had since taking on the role, particularly, since Australia has moved to prohibit genetic testing, when it comes to life insurance? Like, what meetings he has had on the issue and or with Australian counterparts to ensure that what he has put in new Subpart 4A actually is fit for purpose. To me, it just seems like we\u2019re just kind of steamrolling ahead with this process and not actually considering that other parts of the world are evaluating this type of policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo, to recap on new Subpart 4A, I\u2019m interested to know whether the Minister has had any sort of meetings or discussions around Australia\u2019s recent decision, whether he thinks how this regulatory powers will be adequately resourced to ensure that they comply with the legislation, and whether he\u2019s got any reflections about the state of this bill in relation to how consumers will be protected and what consumers would expect if they see other parts of the world actually moving to a more prohibitionist approach to genetic testing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022844ecbadda0e47a3b33c19cb69261579\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022844ecbadda0e47a3b33c19cb69261579\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. One very brief point coming from Mr Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s contribution, and my suggestion, is that regulations are required, because at the moment the legislation as drafted is permissive. There\u2019s a real danger that a Minister might get a little busy\u2014I know, Minister, ha, ha!\u2014or might simply not think it\u2019s a great idea, and therefore kind of thwart the intention of Parliament by not implementing parliamentary intent, which is to have regulations here. I\u2019ve got a proposal there that says, \u201CThe Minister must make a recommendation under section 86B within two years of the commencement of this Act.\u201D The time is up for grabs, but it just has to be time-bound. That\u2019s the guts of it. That\u2019s the first thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe second is actually really important. It\u2019s about clause 82\u2014so a different change to this. It\u2019s about contracts for the sale of land. There\u2019s always this tricky thing. I remember over the earthquakes when the earthquakes hit, the first thing the law firms had to deal with was what about all of those contracts where someone had agreed to buy a house and now it\u2019s damaged? Now, it\u2019s solved largely by clause 82, which says, \u201CWell, you still have to buy the house, but you get the benefit of the insurance.\u201D You\u2019re put in the same situation. People don\u2019t like it, but at the end of the day you\u2019ve still got to buy the house and you get to be in the shoes of the insured party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a gap, and it\u2019s actually a really big one, Minister, and it\u2019s one we need to address. That\u2019s that it is silent on Natural Hazards Commission payments. There is absolutely no legal requirement for the Natural Hazards Commission to pay an incoming purchaser of the house. Now, through the earthquakes, the workaround was deeds of assignment of the Earthquake Commission entitlements, but sometimes those were forgotten, sometimes they were defective, and sometimes people would simply say, \u201CHard luck. I\u2019ve decided not to.\u201D and it became a real problem. We need to cover that off, because, as night follows day, if you\u2019re entitled to the benefit of private insurance, you must be entitled to the benefit of natural hazards insurance. We really need to address that so you don\u2019t have this black hole of law where private insurance is dealt with one way and natural hazards insurance is dealt with another way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00223ae838cec8c54efb9313f3d799c876f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ae838cec8c54efb9313f3d799c876f4\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Look, I\u2019ll just deal with that one quickly. The issue around natural hazards\u2014we\u2019ve quite deliberately kept that separate from this Contracts of Insurance Bill. The natural hazards Act has its own arrangement, and what we haven\u2019t done with this bill is try to take parts of that and put it under here. The natural hazard Act operates under its own framework, and this one operates under its own framework. It\u2019s very clear we haven\u2019t tried to mesh them and merge them and do all that sort of stuff, and that\u2019s quite a deliberate approach to the whole thing. I think it\u2019s wrong to try and complicate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI just want to return to this issue around genetic modification. Of course, as members will know, this was an issue that came up during the select committee. It wasn\u2019t something that there has been a lot of consultation on; it just came up during the select committee process, and I\u2019ll just call out Mr Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s comments. Australia has announced a policy to ban insurers from using adverse genetic test results, but they haven\u2019t actually passed the legislation. It\u2019s an intent, but the details of that we do not know. The presumption of what Mr Men\u00E9ndez March was implying\u2014I think we\u2019ve just got to be a little bit careful with the language. Obviously we\u2019re very interested to see what Australia does on this issue. We are also very interested from New Zealand\u2019s perspective. We\u2019d want to make sure that people are not unduly disadvantaged from insurers using this as a way to exclude minorities, unnecessarily so. That is why we\u2019ve adopted a flexible approach, which means we\u2019ll do it through Order in Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EMr Men\u00E9ndez March asked the question a couple of times about resourcing. Look, we all understand this is a very important issue. It\u2019s a new, emerging part of the insurance industry. I\u2019m very mindful of it. There are large resources the Government has to be able to undertake and investigate further, but the reason we\u2019ve gone down this route is there is a procedure laid out as to how we might put in place regulations to deal with this in a more flexible manner rather than predetermining an outcome. At this point, we have to consult with various groups. We\u2019re going to take a measured approach. It is an important area. If the members opposite are suggesting it\u2019s not, it is. The approach we\u2019re taking will mean that we can keep our practice up to date with what\u2019s happening around the world, to make sure that New Zealanders are not disadvantaged by this practice, but it is an emerging trend, and we need to be cognisant of it, and we\u2019re very aware of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00221d3d369fa0bd4daf952775541b457ffd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d3d369fa0bd4daf952775541b457ffd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am particularly concerned with the section on genetic testing as well. It was an issue we tried to deal with in the Finance and Expenditure Committee and, as I\u2019m sure the Minister knows, it was brought to our attention and then dealt with there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ELook, Dr Webb has gone through the issue on clause 86B\u2014that the Minister \u201Cmay\u201D regulate. What I want to look at is in clause 86C(1)(d). All right, so most of this section on genetic testing is set up to ensure that consumers aren\u2019t adversely affected by being required to take genetic tests and so on, and the Minister is required to develop regulations that are going to sort of have that effect, but 86C is looking at the procedural requirements, and particularly who the Minister needs to consult\u2014the Financial Markets Authority, people who are affected. It has to ensure that the regulations are desirable or necessary, but it\u2019s 86C(1)(d) where the Minister has to be \u201Csatisfied that the regulations are not likely to unduly prevent insurers from considering information in relation to genetic tests\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s a little bit curious because the set of rules around the sorts of regulations that the Minister may make seem to have the effect of ruling out genetic testing, but 86C(1)(d) seems to allow it back in again. I wonder if the Minister could explain what sort of information insurers might be able to consider? It has to be highly significant to insurance underwriting, but it\u2019s a little hard to understand what that information might be, given that all the other rules in this section are going to ruling out genetic testing. What sorts of genetic information, or information related to genetic tests, might insurers quite reasonably consider so that it wouldn\u2019t be ruled out by the Minister\u2019s regulations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a little bit complicated, but I am trying to see if that\u2019s kind of a little bit of a back-door entry in for genetic testing, and to make sure that we aren\u2019t\u2014in the process of setting up these regulations\u2014then allowing a back door, which would have the effect of nullifying them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00229402a59cf47342f7a1eb8f9cf7a53f4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229402a59cf47342f7a1eb8f9cf7a53f4f\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to ask a question of the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs in relation to his answer on genetic testing. I think his answer was really, really helpful, especially given the context of a number of patient groups of people in a community of sufferers of genetic conditions, who will be following along with this debate very closely because it deeply and personally affects them and their families, particularly their children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister: when he says he will run a full consultation process when he is using the Order in Council powers, what will the consultation process look like and will those patient groups be consulted with? A number of submitters noted for the Finance and Expenditure Committee that it was the first time that they were able to engage with the issue when this bill was before the select committee. They were, essentially, really making the case for regulation at all. They weren\u2019t able to put their arguments about what good regulation would look like; they weren\u2019t able to put their arguments about where they would see genetic testing as a low risk and where they would see it as a high risk for certain patient groups and for certain conditions. They made the point very strongly, I guess, that the kinds of tests on one side and the kinds of conditions on the other have a material impact, and what\u2019s in and what\u2019s out in a regime is something that they really want to be consulted on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m asking him to elaborate for people who are watching along with this at home, and I know there are people watching this now. Can he just give an assurance about what the sort of consultation process would look like, who would run that, how long people might expect it to be open for, and how they might engage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00226211e14fd65f4b3bbd4e3990912804f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226211e14fd65f4b3bbd4e3990912804f0\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002219bb617dcf9649cca6730bd0842f805b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219bb617dcf9649cca6730bd0842f805b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019m sorry to stand up and take the call again, but I really am hoping that the Minister will answer those questions. I think they\u2019re quite important. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00229427816de44442279ed7587244377398\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229427816de44442279ed7587244377398\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Very good comments. With clause 86C(1)(d), which the member raises, the reality is that genetic testing is happening and will continue to occur, and it\u2019s likely it will continue to escalate. What this is referring to is that there are some conditions where, if you have the gene, it is so significant in terms of an insurance event that it would have a material bearing on whether, in fact, you could get insurance. For instance, I had a good friend who had Huntington\u2019s disease. He was a good friend of mine. He planned his life, never had children\u2014he adopted children\u2014and made sure that, when that disease occurred, his family was provided for. Unfortunately, he died at a very young age, at 40\u2014a very successful person in his career.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, that was a situation that he planned for, and if an insurance company knew that he had that disease\u2014because it was inevitable that he was going to suffer from that disease; it\u2019s not one like, for instance, the BRCA gene, where a person may or may not get it. In that situation, it is a significant piece of insurance information, and it\u2019s only fair in those situations that you should be able to get insurance for certain aspects but certainly, I think, it would be pretty unlikely to be able to do life insurance, because the likelihood of what is going to happen is almost inevitable. This is what this is taking into account. It\u2019s obviously a very subtle issue and a difficult one. It\u2019s not presupposing an outcome, but it\u2019s just trying to recognise that there are some conditions that are, unfortunately, terminal or have significant consequences. That\u2019s why that subsection (d) is included in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce59f7a867554bcbb95a4334ca9bc29b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce59f7a867554bcbb95a4334ca9bc29b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Given the Minister\u2019s answers\u2014and I really appreciate his answers and I didn\u2019t necessarily anticipate that answer\u2014how does the subsection that Dr Russell has raised interact with new clause 86C(3)(c), which is an important protection, which was really essential to the committee\u2019s buy-in to the cross-partisan support for these regulations, which is that it\u2019s a protection which, essentially, requires the Minister, before making an Order in Council to regulate the use of genetic testing by insurers, to satisfy himself and have\u2014no, sorry. It\u2019s not a standard of satisfaction; it\u2019s a standard of having a particular regard to the kind of genetic test, and that is an important distinction\u2014about whether the regulations are likely to avoid significant disadvantages for policyholders. That\u2019s all policyholders, including those policyholders who are expected to ultimately have their lives shortened by the genetic conditions they suffer as a group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe examples there are important and should be read in the meaning of that part and not simply as examples alone for the purpose of illustrating the meaning of that. It\u2019s the word \u201Csignificant\u201D, the less favourable terms which the Minister is, I guess, being asked to consider. Can he compare the meaning of new clause 86C(3)(c) with the provision which then protects insurers that Dr Russell has asked him about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00226d51fb28e70746d183d6eaedb77b3a2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d51fb28e70746d183d6eaedb77b3a2f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like to thank the Minister for sharing that example and to offer my sympathies for the loss of his friend, because it does bring home the nature of some of those genetic diseases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI just want to follow up on what the Minister told us a little about. Huntington\u2019s disease is, as I say, very distressing and has only one outcome. But the BRCA gene is interesting, because it is so highly associated with a pretty\u2014what\u2019s the word I was going to say\u2014aggressive form of breast cancer. I guess this becomes the point at which something is a certainty versus a very high possibility. There\u2019s a little bit of a line-drawing exercise to go on in there. For example, until recently, we would have said that cystic fibrosis was pretty much a certainty of an early death, but with the advent of some drugs\u2014if people have access to Trikafta, then a fairly standard lifespan is expected. There\u2019s a little bit of a judgment exercise involved in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just invite the Minister if he could speak a little bit more about the sorts of advice he is likely to take, or the things that the Minister who is handling it at the time ought to take, around trying to distinguish what really is a terminal condition, what is a likely condition, and how that might affect how that particular clause might operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022409a3da3a5194a3f849f2c4da06fbea9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022409a3da3a5194a3f849f2c4da06fbea9\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Look, it\u2019s obviously a very delicate issue. Probably the easiest way to explain it is there are some conditions that there is no possibility of a different outcome. They\u2019re terminal or maybe of terminal nature, and that\u2019s what new clause 86C(1)(d) deals with, right? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe example that the member just raised\u2014obviously, there are many forms of cancer; not all of them are terminal. I\u2019d be very concerned and certainly wouldn\u2019t be wanting to make changes through Orders in Council to allow insurers to say anyone who had cancer wouldn\u2019t be able to get a life insurance policy, because that clearly is unfair. New clause 86C that was put in by the committee is, I think, a good clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThere is a distinction, right? Of course, what we\u2019re talking about\u2014and there are multiple insurance products, of course. Even my friend with Huntington\u2019s disease still wanted to insure his house. He still wanted to insure his car, he wanted to do other insurance, but the likelihood of him getting life insurance against an event that was inevitable\u2014that\u2019s the distinction. We certainly don\u2019t want the insurance companies saying: as a big band, we\u2019re going to exclude you or charge a higher premium. I\u2019m very clear on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222592b8126ad043f093ed54a11e2558af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222592b8126ad043f093ed54a11e2558af\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019ll just indicate that at this stage we\u2019ll be looking for new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022de0ef5db77994dafb8c6f7e2002be806\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de0ef5db77994dafb8c6f7e2002be806\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E In the spirit of the committee stage, my question is a straight question. Given Australia\u2019s changing position, should New Zealand be seeking to align itself with Australia, and will the Minister exercise his powers under the new regulation-making powers in this legislation with a view to aligning New Zealand\u2019s insurance industry up with Australia\u2019s? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002297a8882de86a40598a34987f7109dec3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297a8882de86a40598a34987f7109dec3\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Look, as I\u2019ve said before, Australia is announcing an intention. It has not passed legislation, and local parliaments\u2014and we\u2019re the same\u2014will go through a select committee process. It will be interesting to see where they end up. Of course we will have regard to Australia\u2019s outcome, as we would have regard to other jurisdictions around the world. What we\u2019ll make sure of is that we\u2019ll do best in class around the world to make sure that we deal with this, and it will be evolving. Even if we make it a change in a year\u2019s time, or whenever the Parliament in Australia passes its legislation, there will be further developments. That\u2019s why adopting an Order in Council procedure, with the very clear procedural approach that has to be followed under clause 86C, gives us the flexibility to make sure we keep up to date and abreast of developments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u002255bfd2b01c2b41e5834e96b2a1668314\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255bfd2b01c2b41e5834e96b2a1668314\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got some questions around clause 86C(3) and the paragraphs within that. I\u2019m particularly interested, if the Minister could tell me, what another source of information might be. I mean, how do we stop insurers from, for example, requesting information from the heritage sites where people have voluntarily given DNA information to, which can be very useful. I mean that\u2019s how I confirmed my Jewish heritage through that site. Can we prevent them from requiring us to disclose information? Looking at paragraph (c) \u201Cwhen viewed as a group\u201D, does that mean an ethnic group, potentially?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI mean, presumably, people of African heritage living in New Zealand are far more likely to have sickle-cell anaemia than the Minister or myself. At what stage does that constitute some sort of ethnic bias? Are there some genes that M\u0101ori or Pasifika hold that make them more vulnerable to particular illnesses or shorter life? There certainly is a far shorter life expectancy for a number of reasons\u2014potentially some of them genetic, mostly socio-economic\u2014for M\u0101ori and Pasifika. How does that fit into us trying to make insurance fair in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI just want to also reflect on a personal experience. I\u2019ve just visited my sister who\u2019s got terminal bile duct cancer. Would I have to declare my relatives and their particular diseases in order to get insurance, and do I need to have a genetic test to see if we\u2019ve got the same vulnerability, or would they just look at some medical likelihoods? It\u2019d just be interesting. I mean these are very complex questions. It\u2019s difficult to answer in here, but this is a point at which we should be asking these questions. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00229d42183202f744e796c3169139e3bd00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d42183202f744e796c3169139e3bd00\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m sorry to hear about your sister. Look, the examples you use are exactly what we don\u2019t want to happen. We don\u2019t want insurers to blankly classify people, ethnic groups, people with certain conditions\u2014and it might be a familial relationship or whatever\u2014we don\u2019t want them doing that. That\u2019s the bit about this whole thing. Of course, it\u2019s an evolving thing. That\u2019s the general principle. I\u2019m very keen, and I\u2019m sure all parties in this committee want to make sure, that people should be able to get insurance\u2014that\u2019s the general principle of it, right? We need to deal with it delicately, but that is the general principle. We do not want that sort of classification that you\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0defcaf5df0495ca1fa207f023ec480\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0defcaf5df0495ca1fa207f023ec480\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00227eecb147478b4eaf8a8999443e3ca7e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227eecb147478b4eaf8a8999443e3ca7e9\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My question is about clause\u00A090, and it is about the insurer standing in the policyholder\u2019s place for those claims that are made under this subpart, which is a new subpart that we have not yet debated. It\u2019s relating to an amendment on the Table for the Minister\u2019s consideration. There is a lack of clarity here about what documents the insurer, when standing in, should receive. An amendment here seems to be needed, via a new subclause (3), where whoever the claimant is in this kind of scenario would be able to seek\u2014and the insurer must provide\u2014all information in the documents relevant to the claim, whether or not there had been proceedings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn a situation where there were proceedings\u2014where there were court proceedings or, in a provision where arbitration was allowed, arbitration proceedings; or in a negotiated scenario, which is a scenario that we envision in this bill anyway for consumer insurance contracts\u2014what\u2019s not clear here is, prior to that, whether it would be possible for the claimant to get those documents. It would also be helpful, if the Minister is not going to accept the amendment that\u2019s being proposed here, if he would enunciate his view on whether those documents should be provided to the claimants in this situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2442d74a81e4c048f9bc382c00d2266\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2442d74a81e4c048f9bc382c00d2266\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I know the member is talking on behalf of a clause put forward by the Hon Dr Webb. Look, it\u2019s already addressed\u2014if Dr Webb looked seven clauses on, he would have seen that it\u2019s addressed in clause 97 and also Schedule 3 of the bill. It\u2019s already provided for in the bill that a claimant can obtain information documents relevant to the claim from the insurer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00223636fd39917f4853af56ecb8871dfab1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223636fd39917f4853af56ecb8871dfab1\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Moving to clause 91, which is the defences which apply to this subpart, has the Minister considered the need for a new subclause (2)(d) here, which would allow for the defences which are being relied on to be for the status of the policyholder and making them specific to that policyholder. In this subpart, there\u2019s the policyholder and there\u2019s the claimant. It\u2019s helpful, because there is a lack of clarity here, for the Minister to give Parliament some clarity about whether an amendment is needed here or whether it\u2019s his intention to ensure that the term saying the insurance is voided on insolvency, or anything like that, would not deprive third parties who are making a claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022a84972948c104f5798974ba71a602aee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a84972948c104f5798974ba71a602aee\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Look, clause 91(2) already prevents insurers from relying on certain technical defences that it would only have because the policyholder has become insolvent, so it\u2019s already provided for. I suppose a more general principle is that it\u2019s better to clearly identify the specific defences that insurers cannot use, to avoid uncertainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u002205e07bc80a7a4a17a9599e5020cdde76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205e07bc80a7a4a17a9599e5020cdde76\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u002263d223acf287491496c6b213aff04ab4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263d223acf287491496c6b213aff04ab4\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just had a quick question\u2014and I know we\u2019ve been jumping around a lot, but I\u2019ve got to go\u2014on Subpart 6, and I think it\u2019s clause 99, \u201CApplication for shares in company not to be contained in proposal for insurance\u201D. I was wondering: is that quite a common phenomenon in the insurance industry? Is it a kind of common thing? When you\u2019re taking a call for insurance, is it quite common that they\u2019re, essentially, asking you to, like, buy shares in the company? I\u2019m just wondering whether you can kind of quantify the extent of the problem as it exists today: like, how often is it occurring\u2014what, I guess, that current kind of scale for penalty is. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002274f1dae0e7714181b187676f7947094d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274f1dae0e7714181b187676f7947094d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I apologise for coming back to the Subpart 4A on genetic testing, but I want to ask a specific question which I don\u2019t believe has been answered and that there is significant public interest in\u2014that is, how long interested groups in this, particularly patient groups, can expect consultation with them to occur for. The reason I would ask this is because, before the Minister can exercise his powers, which he\u2019s required to do in two years\u2014so there is a time frame on the requirement for the Minister to make regulations in this area\u2014is it his expectation that the consultation period would, basically, be the entire two years, or would that be a smaller part of the two years? The patient groups for this are already engaged in it because of this bill\u2019s process, and they want to know how they can prepare because they want to make the best case possible for their access to continued life insurance. This is not a question which affects a large number of people, but it is a question which affects a small number of people very deeply, and it\u2019s one that would be very helpful for the Minister to give some clarity on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002269627e97e9884fff8aec5f915fd0c24b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269627e97e9884fff8aec5f915fd0c24b\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002221a4c88d20764b95b09e3f38caf23c1a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d527860583064a399517c67847ac088f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d527860583064a399517c67847ac088f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 125 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022433128dac28042718f4f73be962ddca8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b888eae7203643eca71ecc9c6d27bec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b888eae7203643eca71ecc9c6d27bec2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new subclause (5) in clause 70 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225926d4294fa64192ad9cf28f06ded8cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba69a70a201d42718b344cf5d8e99c24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba69a70a201d42718b344cf5d8e99c24\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new subclause (6) in clause 70 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e6cb2a56b414c62a8678c0018d97a5e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6f5ad6c62f5431db036944160449644\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6f5ad6c62f5431db036944160449644\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new paragraph (c) in clause 72(3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a49d38e4bebf4a828e772ae2bc8c5781\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221512e16a5a0b41b5ad7ebf35d3af48fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221512e16a5a0b41b5ad7ebf35d3af48fd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 73(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002200051cac85de4adeb218013a6cb837b7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022af5e5545140f4c2eabbef25b759bcf9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af5e5545140f4c2eabbef25b759bcf9b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new subclause (5) in clause 74 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223346e87dea07410baf773c64daef79d8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022247c9293cf714979a3ef978a5390c7c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022247c9293cf714979a3ef978a5390c7c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 75(3)(b) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aac1a4ed30094845840fec47127573b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022137295bbf7e347e088213cbeeb81bc8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022137295bbf7e347e088213cbeeb81bc8e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 76(1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b7a6cafda3e49cd8cb67f212f107ce1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002280eb595c6261474fb745f9970079e231\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280eb595c6261474fb745f9970079e231\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 77(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b03dfde46d32449dad528d13541ba021\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002279fa1a1b5cd747bb810806fc1637b095\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279fa1a1b5cd747bb810806fc1637b095\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment deleting clause 80 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022664d05204dda4e64b0560a3e27b1c259\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6ea297ebdae4fb7bf17b7fe3bb0bf55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6ea297ebdae4fb7bf17b7fe3bb0bf55\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert a definition of \u201Cland\u201D in clause 81 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e3d28aa04faa488a8536c49c9945901e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022364039ba9ed845aa8a941029f2bd9093\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022364039ba9ed845aa8a941029f2bd9093\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new subclause (4) in clause 82 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022888f0beef18a4166b6dad562e9168079\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022253df04241c54d9b95e60e8adebdd91a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022253df04241c54d9b95e60e8adebdd91a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s amendment to replace Subpart 4A of Part 3, set out on Amendment Paper 108, be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cf5f74b493a241e18dd3ef41a186ffb9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a775397c19e0434b8c1c9ca12093b8a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a775397c19e0434b8c1c9ca12093b8a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 86C(1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ac5dc00e608846b7b19af916434c7132\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224fc231c4dbbf4ff3a4960bb7796e5d80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fc231c4dbbf4ff3a4960bb7796e5d80\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new paragraph (i) in clause 87(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c4aebbfcd84f4150ad0ac6289619c6e2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002285990ec1f8484c14a4f75e06d85452ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285990ec1f8484c14a4f75e06d85452ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 89 is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new subclause (3) in clause 90 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022716a3e2c6c3448639114b330cad72eee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220fc39f9893024291966ba067aa01e822\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fc39f9893024291966ba067aa01e822\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new paragraph (d) in clause 91(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022407fccefbcbd4ebba448b27cbe324fbc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229d35e947ff074cbf86bac5253923c8d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d35e947ff074cbf86bac5253923c8d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting clause 93A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002251874f2854bc4f1e93f8aea870831919\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e158a09f971540b1931fec55709263ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c27144d01a846c0b8059778da5712b9\u0022\u003EPart 4  Intermediaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002230db8c8934aa451e97fc61224a5d967c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230db8c8934aa451e97fc61224a5d967c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 4. This is the debate on clauses 100 to 121, \u201CIntermediaries\u201D. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002213271e9d7e62484cab1e1745ee4b74cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213271e9d7e62484cab1e1745ee4b74cf\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a number of suggestions as to how this part of the bill can be improved. This is an important\u2014was that Part 5 you said, Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eabdc5d6b954e02b389e45d01d356ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Part 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220273bbe219dd49308f511eb08c5daaad\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! Look, I\u2019ll let my colleague take a call because I\u2019ve actually prepared something on Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6cbfefadf434c44b4785f01cd166dd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6cbfefadf434c44b4785f01cd166dd9\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to Part 4 of the bill, I want to ask the Minister some questions about the role of intermediaries and brokers, particularly given the changes to the definition of \u201Cbrokers\u201D that was made at the Finance and Expenditure Committee. Is there anything in this part which has been drafted\u2014given the old meaning of \u201Cbrokers\u201D under the previous definition that Cabinet has considered and that the previous Labour Government was working on, which is, essentially, what\u2019s being proposed here by Part 4\u2014that is materially affected by the change in the specified persons definition, which applies to brokers and intermediaries in this part?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227d45b013b8f544e6920eb5f506c52259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d45b013b8f544e6920eb5f506c52259\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E We apologise for the earlier confusion, but I just really wanted to challenge the Minister on the inclusion of clauses 104 and 105, which provide default provisions for when\u2014and I\u2019ve never understood why we trouble the legislature with these clauses, which provide, essentially, a default provision. I think it\u2019s something like 50 days that a broker has to pay money received from an insured as premiums to the insurance company. The irony is it isn\u2019t even a rule of law; it\u2019s just a default contractual provision, which they\u2019re free to contract out on. It does seem to be an absolute waste of legislative paper to even print this clause, and the parties should just negotiate it between themselves as they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I know that brokers make a lot of money because they sit on premiums and put it in investment accounts, and half of this blimmin\u2019 section of the bill deals with how they can invest it and how they can retain the profits on investment, which all seems entirely superfluous because it\u2019s a private relationship. Why are we even including, essentially, giving brokers a favour by including a default position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002284f89f0b486442c99b26a46dec8be6ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284f89f0b486442c99b26a46dec8be6ef\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to bring the Minister to the changes made to new subclause (2A) in clause 104 and the deletion of subclause (4). The question that I have is similar to my questions in previous parts which have not been answered by the Minister: which submitters asked for the change which is being made here, and is he satisfied that the change in legislation, which he is overseeing and which has only been submitted on by\u2014I think it\u2019s one in this case\u2014one stakeholder who had an interest here, is a fair representation of a piece of legislation that should step forward the interests of consumers, where, in fact, very well-organised parties, who are able to contract for themselves and go into contractual negotiations very well represented, have come along to the Finance and Expenditure Committee and asked for a change which has then been accepted by officials as a change which was suggested to the committee? Is he satisfied with that as a legislative process in this instance? And the others I have asked him about, which he has not answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022f784fba983574be2991ef07b3d407842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f784fba983574be2991ef07b3d407842\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I did discuss this with the insurers and also with the brokers, so I don\u2019t think anyone suggested to me that we should delete clause 104, which the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has proposed for both clause 104 and, consequently, clause 105.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EFirst of all, the importance of this clause is that it sets a statutory backstop, and that is important. That\u2019s the main reason for retaining this clause, and I think it\u2019s wrong for the member to propose that we actually delete it in its entirety. Unless there\u2019s a duty for the broker to hand over money, the insurer could be left with no one being required to pay them, and this is because clause 101 provides that a policyholder paying the intermediary discharges their liability when they do so. There\u2019s a sort of flow-on effect to this, so we think it\u2019s important that there is a regulatory backstop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, as the member suggested, insurers and their brokers can come to a different arrangement, but that is the main reason why these two clauses are important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224315a8788f044752b574f7e47ec38ee6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224315a8788f044752b574f7e47ec38ee6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E There is a further point I wanted to ask. I know that the Minister holds some other portfolios which relate to small business, and this relates to clause 108, \u201CDuties of broker in relation to payments due to policyholder\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBrokers often will, in fact, receive payments. Say you might have a small business, for example. There is a big flood and you can\u2019t get to your premises, so you get business interruption insurance, and the question is when does the broker have to pay the policyholder\u2014the person who has suffered the loss or damage? Now, there\u2019s this really weird division here, because if you\u2019re a consumer, it\u2019s \u201C7 days\u201D\u2014boom! They pay it out. If you\u2019re a business, it\u2019s \u201Cas soon as is reasonably practicable after the broker receives the money, in the case of a payment in connection with a non-consumer insurance contract.\u201D There\u2019s absolutely no sense in that division. There is no reason why a small business should be out of their money for longer, unless the Minister thinks that \u201Cas soon as is reasonably practicable\u201D is less than seven days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that, if you are holding money under a business contract, it could be many millions of dollars. I have seen payouts of hundreds of millions of dollars. Holding that for two days is a good little earner. Why should a broker be able to hold insurance moneys on behalf of a small business, or, indeed, any business, for longer than they can for a consumer? Can you answer that for me, please, Mr Bayly? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1c36730a30d47249b61fac7acf6f990\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1c36730a30d47249b61fac7acf6f990\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah. Thank you, Mr Chair, and I was just checking there. Obviously, in this bill, we\u2019ve made a clear differentiation between consumer insurance, which is for individuals primarily, and commercial contracts, because they\u2019re quite different types of products, and, in many cases, they\u2019re much more complex. In light of that\u2014and that theme carries right through the bill\u2014we\u2019ve made it very explicit that, for personal consumer products, they have to be paid out in seven days, as set out under clause 108(a). That\u2019s important, but in the main they\u2019re very simple insurance products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWith regard to clause 108, there is still a requirement\u2014and I\u2019d just draw the member\u2019s attention to clause 108(b). It states right at the start of it that \u201Cas soon as is reasonably practicable\u201D, the money must be paid from the broker. That is the key tenet of it, and, obviously, there can be agreements between brokers and insurers if they want to, but that reasonableness test is a crucial test. Again, we\u2019ve talked about that and traversed that earlier in the discussions around the bill. That\u2019s a commonly understood term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002248d6dc66f5544191bc0319f484055b55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248d6dc66f5544191bc0319f484055b55\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Just for clarity: does the Minister expect that \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D to mean less than seven days or more than seven days? That\u2019s the relevant question here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister says that the bill is drafted in a way so as to create consumer contracts for insurance and other contracts for insurance, that\u2019s not the case. For most of this legislation\u2019s life, the legislation was drafted in a way in which the big delineations were between contracts for insurance for policyholders who were not in a position to negotiate contract terms with an insurer because the insurer had an outsized sort of corporate interest and corporate power to negotiate, and contracts for reinsurance, which were large, commercial arrangements between two large corporate entities that had sort of relative power. That was the distinction. These new distinctions which are created here around non-consumer insurance contracts are new and they have a different kind of impact than they did before because of the previous changes to the definitions and to the way the contracts for insurance are defined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy question about these non-consumer insurance contracts that are created under clause 108 is new and different from the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s and needs to be addressed. In the situation for contracts for insurance for businesses like accountants and lawyers for indemnities, where they pay on to consumers, and so, essentially, you claim against your accountant because they have given you negligent advice and that has caused you real loss, which does insure a consumer\u2014that insures the exact kind of vulnerable person here, whom Mr Bayly is talking about needing to insure in this law. Does it apply to those, or not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002290416257d622402f9654571b0e5838be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290416257d622402f9654571b0e5838be\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I beg to differ. There has been a distinction between consumer and non-consumer throughout the bill, so that\u2019s the fundamental sort of difference in approach. As we traverse, I think, in Part 2 extensively around the complexity, often, of commercial arrangements, insurance arrangements dictate that they have different arrangements. Clause 108 takes that and recognises that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ETo your specific question about what is reasonable and whether it is less than seven days for a commercial contract, it is reasonable in the circumstances. In some cases, it might be an earlier payment, as might occur within seven days for a commercial insurance policy, but, for other occasions, it might not be. Again, we\u2019re just making sure that we recognise that there are different types of products that are more complicated and, therefore, in some cases, there might be an earlier payment required and, in other cases, there might not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00225e0db76a5cff4dadb2541889e9e68024\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e0db76a5cff4dadb2541889e9e68024\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to add to the issue with regard to the holding of the money for 50 days as a default because we\u2019ve had some really interesting research in terms of the withholding of money owed to small businesses. The latest research from Xero says that we have had an increase in the amount that that\u2019s costing our small businesses and our firms to $827 million a year, compared to $456 million in 2021. This is exponential growth. We\u2019ve got a growing problem, it seems, of people who are in the middle of these transactions calculating to hold on to money for as long as they possibly can because they\u2019re receiving the interest on it. They\u2019re using our small businesses as banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that this particular scenario is one where that is almost being sanctioned by us because we\u2019re saying that 50 days is the default and we\u2019re saying \u201Cin a reasonable time\u201D and it becomes the practice. I was talking this week to someone senior in the business representation committee. They said that people are only being paid in 120 days. That\u2019s becoming a calculated decision\u2014120 days to pay a small business. That\u2019s a very long time. While the average late payment might be about eight days\u2014which is, by the way, way more than it is in Australia or the UK, which is taking this issue very seriously and publishing the results of people who pay late and how that\u2019s calculated\u2014those kinds of issues are really of a concern here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like the Minister to address whether he is concerned that, by putting in a payment term like 50\u00A0days, we are almost creating a calculation of, \u201CWe will keep this money for this long. We will make this amount in interest because we\u2019re gathering up all these amounts.\u201D, and that will become part of the business model. We\u2019re almost saying in this legislation that that\u2019s OK, and the term \u201Creasonable\u201D will become dictated by those outliers at 120 days or 90 days, which has become a habit in New Zealand and that will be seen as reasonable when, in fact, it\u2019s really hurting our small businesses. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224074ffcadd93497a89ad7962dd24125c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224074ffcadd93497a89ad7962dd24125c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not quite sure whether the numbers the member is quoting there are general credit or whether she\u2019s specifically talking about money held for insurances policies, so I suspect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221534fd8f6bcf448297a55c2f7a8bf3aa\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: No. Just generally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcccb08374ab4f6c8b808e5bbf2a7e06\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Generally\u2014yeah, that\u2019s a different issue. You\u2019ll be aware that we made an announcement about that yesterday. In terms of the 50 days, when I met with brokers and insurers my recollection is that 50 is now the current normal. We\u2019re not changing there. Some people wanted it to be brought forward, some people didn\u2019t\u2014so we reflect the current practice of 50\u00A0days. Obviously, there\u2019s ability for insurers and brokers to negotiate a different and quicker payment time, but I just want to be very clear that the 50-day test relates to money that the broker passes on to the insurer. It\u2019s not what, I think, the member was alluding to. It does not affect payment to small business policyholder. That\u2019s a clear differentiation, because we want to make sure that small businesses get paid in a timely manner. This is merely relating to the arrangement between the insurance company and the broker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022a03e38166cad4c1a9da77ad4eedc0b69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a03e38166cad4c1a9da77ad4eedc0b69\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to make sure that I am speaking clearly about this. Yes, the Minister is right. It\u2019s a general reflection of payments not made to businesses\u2014it\u2019s research from Xero\u2014which is a real concern. It\u2019s not about what the Government sets; it\u2019s about business to business, etc., so it\u2019s being withheld.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m kind of concerned even more about what was said, because we\u2019re talking about two different things. One is premiums held. There is very little reason not to pass on a premium as soon as possible. That\u2019s just taking money from people and using it for insurance. The other is holding money that you\u2019re supposed to pass on to somebody who\u2019s actually been injured. They have had some event, which means that that money is really vital, and in terms of holding that for a long time, there are two things going on. One is that we have prescribed a time of 50 days because it\u2019s the norm. Well, actually, it sounds like a worrying norm to me. Did we investigate whether that was, in fact, a sensible time; whether there was any reason to hold that money; or whether we\u2019re building it into a business model whereby those brokers, those third parties, will hold that money for that long and just simply claim they\u2019re investing it and claiming the interest, and whether the other is of concern too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESurely we need things to go through swiftly, and I\u2019m concerned that if we\u2019ve got that growing issue with an increased amount of time, we\u2019re actually sending a signal, again, that, \u201CIt\u2019s too bad for the little guy and it will take as long as it takes. We\u2019ll decide if it\u2019s reasonable.\u201D And if you\u2019ve got judges who, with respect, earn a lot of money and are not under the pump the way small businesses are, they wouldn\u2019t necessarily see that that sinks a business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002285293be8526944eebe75f90e16b9814f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285293be8526944eebe75f90e16b9814f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously I did a poor job of explaining it. There is a requirement for insurers to pay policyholders\u2014commercial and non-commercial\u2014promptly. We\u2019ve traversed that in the previous part. That is an absolute requirement. What we\u2019re talking about here is something quite distinct from that. All we\u2019re talking about in this clause is the arrangement between the broker and the insurer. That\u2019s the big differentiation. There\u2019s always been a norm, from my recollection, that brokers would have up to 50\u00A0days to pay the insurer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019re concerned about the brokerage industry going broke or the insurance industry going broke, let\u2019s have that discussion, but that\u2019s quite separate from what I think the member\u2019s trying to allege\u2014that there\u2019s going to be a subsequent and consequential delay in making the payment between the insurer and the policyholder, and that\u2019s not the case. You need to put a knife between those two connections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf11839b0ef745bcba9c05fd8041eddb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf11839b0ef745bcba9c05fd8041eddb\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Just a brief question: how many submitters asked for this change to clauses 104 and 108, and is it a good enough legislative process that the change has been made with a minimal number of submissions and no submissions from consumers about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002276a01b93eb144bdd8ab435b5c517882d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276a01b93eb144bdd8ab435b5c517882d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 101(1)(b) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a29d6eac68a943acad33f4f688697983\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022667142d6ea3244388f479d54125b5d7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022667142d6ea3244388f479d54125b5d7e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 104 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c22821ca181c4a80bcd9afb92d11a767\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227f3c3ebb8dc3408687f9a1d7e1f3000e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f3c3ebb8dc3408687f9a1d7e1f3000e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 105 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002238b423d2fa8d48ccaf1f2bdcd296bb4b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e81cac93c3ec42168525a80c123c55af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e81cac93c3ec42168525a80c123c55af\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 108 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222767aedbe34c4751877173a17f93f820\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022374cd12b45fa4770a3aac9ecb37878bf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022abb6ba7a53ba4c6282fef9dc99bbb991\u0022\u003EPart 5  Contracts of life insurance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab233e03ee4642d9b564fe9911122462\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab233e03ee4642d9b564fe9911122462\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 5. This is the debate on clauses 123 to 164, \u201CContracts of life insurance\u201D. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002294deafec89424b51af7bc5e99785cee8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294deafec89424b51af7bc5e99785cee8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, goody, I\u2019ve been looking forward to this bit. Now, obviously, contracts of life insurance are of critical importance and actually are really significant financial instruments. I was just a little bit concerned, firstly, in terms of clause\u00A0125\u2014look, this is good. Interest rates must be paid on life insurance\u2014pity about other insurance, but life insurance\u2014\u201Cat the rate and calculated in the manner specified in the life policy\u201D. OK, that\u2019s the default rate of \u201Cat the greater of the following\u201D. Or \u201C(b) \u2026 calculated in the manner prescribed in the regulations.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, my concern is that neither will exist. What happens when neither exist? At the moment, the regulations aren\u2019t there and the regulation-making powers are all discretionary. My proposal is to insert, after clause 125(b), \u201Cprovided that where there are no regulations under subclause (b), the interest rate under that clause is deemed to be the official cash rate plus 2 percent.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThere are interest rates that you could choose\u2014the Judicature Act rate and so on\u2014but we just need a placeholder, and it\u2019s probably a placeholder that needs to be a little higher than might otherwise be the case to incentivise regulations being made, because there is a real risk that it\u2019s just a lacuna, a gap, a void, in respect of interest rates. I\u2019d be very interested in the Minister\u2019s view on how we address the issue there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll go straight to a second point, because I can see the Minister\u2019s just wrestling with that issue. The other one, and this is one that really bugs me, then, is clause 131, \u201CLife insurer may require reasonable evidence of matters affecting validity\u201D. That\u2019s OK. \u201CA life insurer may, before it registers an instrument under this Part, require any reasonable evidence that it thinks fit about any matter that might, in its opinion\u201D\u2014now, \u201Cinsurer\u2019s opinion\u201D has no place in the law. And, in fact, they\u2019re nasty little things which give an outrageous degree of discretion to insurers, because if something affects the validity of the instrument, it\u2019s a yes/no question. Either it\u2019s relevant or it\u2019s not relevant. The opinion of the insurer is not an appropriate consideration. If the insurer has an entirely misplaced opinion that some document is relevant\u2014the birth certificate, whatever it might be\u2014they can then ask for it; that\u2019s just putting unnecessary hurdles in the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a tabled amendment there ready to go, so let\u2019s just strike out \u201Cin its opinion\u201D. That clause should never be found in the law of insurance in relation to \u201Cthe opinion of insurers\u201D anywhere. Don\u2019t you agree, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba6ad912151c4d04ae3963a77d792c62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba6ad912151c4d04ae3963a77d792c62\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. A general question about Part 5 and then a specific question. Is there anything in Part 5, which is the life insurance provisions in this bill, that would give the Minister concern if they are in primary legislation, given that he has new powers to set regulations about the use of genetic testing in a life insurance context? Those will be secondary legislation and subordinate to the primary legislation. I ask that because Part 5 was drafted in the context of nothing being off the table in a life insurance context, but the Minister is expected to make regulations which are very likely to place a number of questions for insurers\u2019 purposes off the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThen a specific question around clause 131. This is also particularly problematic given the Minister\u2019s new powers in setting regulations. Is it his intention to formulate the regulations in some way to get around clause 131 or will he need to be back in this Chamber to amend clause 131 at the stage he\u2019s creating the regulations? It doesn\u2019t seem to me to be possible, unless there\u2019s a very wide interpretation of \u201Creasonable evidence\u201D there, for clause 131 and new regulatory-making powers to exist if they were to limit the insurer\u2019s ability to use genetic testing information, which is entirely the point of the regulations in the first place. Those regulations were introduced by the select committee to limit the ability of insurers to use them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Minister has also agreed with limitations on use of those tests. So, if an insurer was to continue to ask for evidence before registering the instrument about matters pertaining to the use of testing, then that would be allowed at the primary level but, perhaps, prohibited it at a secondary legislative level, which would create some problems for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002200ff1d2c944449d3a97992b873be9a5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200ff1d2c944449d3a97992b873be9a5d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Look, just in reference to your first question, Ms Williams, I don\u2019t have particular concerns\u2014and I know you\u2019ve asked that in a previous part. We\u2019re cognisant and mindful of that, but, at this stage, I don\u2019t have any concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EJust dealing with the specific questions around\u2014well, let\u2019s deal with clause 131, which both you and the Hon Dr Webb have raised, and the proposal is to delete the words \u201Cin its opinion\u201D. Look, the first thing I\u2019d say to you is that the bill carries over a longstanding provision which has operated without issue. I think that raising this as a significant issue at this point sort of goes against the grain of what\u2019s been in place for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESecondly, I\u2019d make the point to the Hon Dr Webb that it\u2019s a strange argument he\u2019s putting forward, because the provision inherently turns on life insurers\u2019 own assessments of what evidence to request. The deletion probably wouldn\u2019t make any practical difference at all. The existing requirement for the required evidence to be reasonable already exists as a safeguard, so there is a reasonable test around that. The bill\u2019s approach has been well consulted on, and no other person or group has raised concern. I do note, again, that you must have had an epiphany, because your original bill didn\u2019t have it changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAgain, coming back to clause 125, I\u2019d just draw your attention to the preamble to clause\u00A0125: \u201CThe interest payable under section 123 or 124 must be paid at the greater of the following: (a) [which is the life insurance policy rate] \u2026 [or] (b) interest at the rate \u2026 calculated\u201D. There is a backstop, which is the life insurance policy rate, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s been done. I know the member\u2019s been very helpful in proposing the official cash rate plus 2 percent, but that\u2019s been plucked out of the air, I might suggest to the member, because already we\u2019ve dealt with the issue in paragraph (a).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c680cb8b59174f2da4988db47b1fda19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c680cb8b59174f2da4988db47b1fda19\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to talk to assignments of life policies, because that is an important question. It recognises that life policies are, essentially, a kind of intangible personal property\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291910c3dabc54e579ca698b8bd28a1a0\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275ecd5abfc944d2d89401f18616b46ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that the rights attached to them can be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265b7b96189834f45adf8c4c06007c0e5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Which clause are you focusing on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f2d0f961614deb8ef8a0ae8acfd7a8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014clause 126, \u201CAssignment of life policy by way of ordinary transfer\u201D. And just recognising that it\u2019s, essentially, a financial instrument\u2014intangible personal property\u2014which is a valuable bundle of rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy concern with clause 126 is that it\u2019s set out as exhaustive, whereas there may be other dealings in life policies, which, to use a kind of slightly arcane approach, are transfers at equity\u2014for example, if money was to be lent and it was agreed that the life policy would be assigned as security; so if I don\u2019t repay it, you can have my life policy. If that\u2019s a promise of something that will happen in the future, it\u2019s an incomplete transaction. It isn\u2019t an assignment at law, it\u2019s not by way of ordinary transfer, but there is an interest that passes, sort of by way of mortgage or perhaps by way of equitable charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, those kinds of transactions are actually quite important, and they\u2019re part of the oil that keeps the wheels of commerce going. Those not fully formalised transfers, which are transfers at equity, need to be recognised, because, at the moment, with clause 126, which looks like it has codified how you transfer a policy, it actually leaves a gap in terms of transfers at equity. These kinds of transfers, which are a little akin to a trust in land law, you\u2019d recognise them by way of caveat. In terms of where they sit in terms of priority, clearly a legal transfer by way of documentation, which is done without notice\u2014honestly without notice\u2014will gazump, will prevail over, an equitable transfer, which might be a far less formal thing. However, if there are no other competing transfers, an equitable transfer should absolutely be recognised because it\u2019s, essentially, a slightly inchoate transfer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy suggestion in the tabled amendment is to add new subclause (3), to clause 126, which says, \u201CFor the avoidance of doubt, nothing in this section prevents the transfer of an interest in a life policy at equity.\u201D That\u2019s very much a catch-all phrase just to say the common law and the law of equity still stand, and transfers of life policies or interests or part interests\u2014whatever. I haven\u2019t sat down yet, Mr Bayly, ha, ha, ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a873c4ec4b452cbe690a5edced9cdf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I love the enthusiasm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207d0f6cdb37a4b3091870349a5a8527f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: But I will now. I think you have gist. I\u2019ll be interested in your answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00226390b750fcb44af48dfc878078bf77ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226390b750fcb44af48dfc878078bf77ad\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I know the member is very diligent, but I suspect he\u2019s been in Parliament too long. I say that with all due respect, because we understand from industry that equity transfers, which he was talking about, are no longer the normal practice. We did actually discuss that with industry. Transfers are done by way of\u2014ordinary transfers no longer occur. So the concept of what he was proposing\u2014if you were seeking to provide security by way of some form of vested interest in another interest, then that would be captured by the contractual relationship. We think that this piece of legislation captures the current thinking on how that happens in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022c10711ccfc5648009010eb63bac99b93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c10711ccfc5648009010eb63bac99b93\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I asked my question about clause 131. I asked about the Minister\u2019s concerns. He said he wasn\u2019t concerned. Let me ask him whether this is good for people who suffer from genetic diseases, who expect him to take powers that restrict insurers from using their genetic testing information to prohibit them from getting insurance\u2014whether clause 131 is good for them. They are expecting him to restrict insurers, to stop insurers, from being able to stop them from getting life insurance policies that would be discriminatory to them and a group of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMost jurisdictions around the world think that it is fair for legislatures like ours to make that call and say, \u201CActually, it\u2019s discriminatory. These people would be facing genetic discrimination if that were the case.\u201D I\u2019m asking him: is it good for those people if clause 131 stated, as it\u2019s written, that an insurer can continue to ask for evidence which is reasonable in its opinion before it registers an instrument? Even if it complies with the secondary legislation that he might introduce, they will still be able to rely on clause 131, as it is written, to continue to ask for information that they deem relevant and reasonable before they register the instrument. I\u2019m asking whether it\u2019s fair and good for patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227a4e306a039241739a908030609e5c8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a4e306a039241739a908030609e5c8b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I have a couple of short points. The first is very short. It\u2019s clause 132, \u201CHigh Court may order registration\u201D. That\u2019s kind of a default provision, like the appointment of trustees and so on and so forth. But why the High Court? The High Court\u2019s slow and expensive. Why not the District Court? Those District Court judges know what they\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is a real formality too. It\u2019s, essentially, saying where there is an assignment by way of transfer and the insurer hasn\u2019t done their job, the court can simply say, \u201CDo your job.\u201D It\u2019s a really good point, this clause 132. I think there\u2019s a principle that any decision making should be undertaken at the lowest appropriate level in terms of achieving some efficiencies in the judicial system, which, frankly, is overwhelmed. So, in terms of the question there, my question is: why have we defaulted to the High Court? The High Courts have always had a common law and an inherent power as a supervisor of trusts. I understand why the later provisions around appointment of trustees say High Court, but this is a really technical and rather boring provision. I\u2019d be very interested as to why you\u2019ve taken that approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other point\u2014I\u2019ll just turn to clause 141\u2014is around surrender values of policies, and that life policies may have a surrender value. And where there is a surrender value but you haven\u2019t kept up premiums, there is an ability to deduct premiums and interest on those premiums. Then it says, in subclause (3), \u201CThis section is subject to\u2014(a) any rules made by the life insurer or that affect the life insurer; and (b) the terms and conditions of the life policy.\u201D It\u2019s all very well, but life policies are, basically, consumer policies almost all of the time. The danger is that the insurer arranges rules which are quite unfair or onerous or change the kind of default settings in this section. That\u2019s why I have suggested that added to that clause is a statement that says, \u201Cprovided that no rules or terms may leave a consumer policyholder in a worse position than they would be under the terms of this section.\u201D That is to say, insurers can say, \u201CWell, look, we won\u2019t charge you interest on unpaid premiums, or we won\u2019t deduct unpaid premiums.\u201D, but what they can\u2019t do is say that you have to pay double premiums or some other absolutely onerous clause. I\u2019d be very interested in the Minister\u2019s view on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022a189ad5286ff436285c0fb0978247160\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a189ad5286ff436285c0fb0978247160\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00228c1f2dd24ee9481295beaf91b4e9e428\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c1f2dd24ee9481295beaf91b4e9e428\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll take one call and, hopefully, it might get us to point. I want to address Ms Williams\u2019 question. She\u2019s drawing a bow between clause 131 and the discussion we had in the previous part around genetic disorders. The provisions in this bill at clause 131 relate only to Part 5, so she\u2019s wrong to try to confuse them and conflate them and reference them back to Part 4. It deals only with issues in Part 5, around transfers, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EJust on the question that the Hon Duncan Webb spoke about\u2014with clause 141\u2014he made a comment implying insurers might be putting a whole lot of difficult terms and conditions. Again, as I\u2019ve said, one of the three guiding principles of this bill is to make sure that insurers are not putting in terms and conditions that policyholders cannot understand or that are hidden in the terms and conditions. That\u2019s why it is a requirement on them to present their policies in a way that can be easily understood. That guiding principle will address much of what he is concerned with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWith regard to the specifics around clause 141\u2014this is subclause (3) that he referred to\u2014we specifically consulted on surrender value provisions at the select committee stage. I know the member wasn\u2019t a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but the feedback the select committee heard on that was that there was no change required to this longstanding provision. In practice, insurers no longer issue these policies; they\u2019re legacy policies only. Again, I think he\u2019s obviously had an epiphany because, whilst this is a new change, it wasn\u2019t in his original bill that he proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022c21cbbf82e4646fb88cd3cfda5911be0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c21cbbf82e4646fb88cd3cfda5911be0\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m confused. Is the Minister saying that nothing in Part 5 \u201CContracts of life insurance\u201D applies to those\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d205908ea84296a28c31e0606bbeef\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: In Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022650ac9b04af84083bff74d109d6e4be0\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014nothing in Part 5, the provisions that relate to contracts for life insurance, applies to contracts of life insurance that will be affected by the new provisions given effect in Subpart 4A of Part 3, so any life insurance policies which are affected by genetic testing would somehow be exempted from contracts of life insurance? I ask this question directly relating to his answer where he said that clause 131 is not affected by the new provisions, which he\u2019s expected to enact within two years of the passing of this bill, to do with genetic question. Look, if so, can he just make that clear for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275276227d3f24279b4b880ca6fd942f6\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d677f8519ac48fbad7ef017fccbc647\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Right. The Minister says, \u201CI did.\u201D It\u2019s now on record that people who are sufferers of genetic conditions, who may be affected by the genetic provision tests, will not be subject to the provisions in Part 5 in total. I guess they can expect that the secondary legislation enacted by the Minister will exempt them from Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022929bc37d380f40f08a68ffcd309c5d22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022929bc37d380f40f08a68ffcd309c5d22\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019m going to deal with this question once and for all. I made my point clear before. I repeat it: clause 131 is about instruments regarding the transfer of life insurance policies. \u201CInstruments\u201D, that is the differentiation. I would suggest to the member that she is confusing the issue in Part 4. This is about the transfer of instruments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f314f7379a054c079cde1482a8ff1572\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f314f7379a054c079cde1482a8ff1572\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224fdfef508b874867b5ce1f81aa461611\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002268b3c6ea88cf4ca884fd2f8de7e207c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268b3c6ea88cf4ca884fd2f8de7e207c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 125 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b076d7e61cf040a4a8a0b368f6a8fc8a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd83484b5c4b41ac84a161c5f30790e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd83484b5c4b41ac84a161c5f30790e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 125A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bd01c16532ba45a7850b6c51c534a220\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00221aefeb0db3e2468583526a9eb9d53489\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221aefeb0db3e2468583526a9eb9d53489\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new subclause (3) in clause 126 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002268fce8a7038a474da22e990450003ed0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226d3615b658944dd18e04d7880057feb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d3615b658944dd18e04d7880057feb6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 131 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223a3d45b1b7bb428582446df17584c6b2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002207c59d1e7d294d77825ea89b2d3b955e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207c59d1e7d294d77825ea89b2d3b955e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 132 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002261415432c9e14f469da0e1919435563e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002253b28f7e1a7e4419ae9706fa5ea6c59d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253b28f7e1a7e4419ae9706fa5ea6c59d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 135 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022295cbf646167482ba0ae16c1acbcd347\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f95afb4a1fc84b76ab31e1a8069dff70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f95afb4a1fc84b76ab31e1a8069dff70\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 141(1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ea15dc6aad1f4b38bee1bb65743404f3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002228ee80dafa65498b9f5cde76793d12c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228ee80dafa65498b9f5cde76793d12c1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 146 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226ba49c4e53a546f7b5193d3477101350\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb017bc01cb847158c4cf4630a88203c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb017bc01cb847158c4cf4630a88203c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 141(3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225de6c149d4b046c18859f09421329ffb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002214ba953615274ebc9adee5ad808c16eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214ba953615274ebc9adee5ad808c16eb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 149 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022416f51ea678047bd8d1e9ec1898429a2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002239fbf2fd05d54e67845bd2e03081bce1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239fbf2fd05d54e67845bd2e03081bce1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new paragraph (e) in clause 150 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022369b647d601047a1834d7b014a879409\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220069955308e245f4a02aa8beae9aec32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220069955308e245f4a02aa8beae9aec32\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new paragraph (f) in clause 150 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221c83c352c6db434196e42fe21cdeb823\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022345644932b68419ebb8b529b80c11d56\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b0b5cc0ae0374debab68d8c04c18de70\u0022\u003EPart 6  Regulations and miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e218c349748b4f0bb8f7cd56cce22d7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e218c349748b4f0bb8f7cd56cce22d7c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 6. This is the debate on clauses 165 to 168, \u201CRegulations and miscellaneous provisions\u201D. The question is that Part 6 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002201717231711d42ce9eb539105d669176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201717231711d42ce9eb539105d669176\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for the opportunity to take a call on this part. I\u2019m going to combine the questions into, essentially, one. It\u2019s a question of prioritisation of the regulatory-making functions, under this bill, which the Minister is empowered to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe prioritisation exercise for making these provisions would have been entirely different before the new Subpart 4 in Part 4 was introduced, and the timing provisions are different too. Even though the regulatory-making powers under Part 4, which is related to brokers, are really important and we asked the Minister a number of questions about the regulatory-making powers in that part, they don\u2019t have a timing requirement on them. They are required to be made in the future, and there is a real importance for them to be made, but there\u2019s a longer time frame on them, whereas the other regulations in the bill are required to be owned within two years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ECan the Minister give some clarity on how he intends to prioritise his regulatory-making powers and on what kind of time frame we can expect the exercise of those powers of secondary legislation making to be exercised by him in Order in Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff12a4870a49430e9ff68ab0fb0813ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff12a4870a49430e9ff68ab0fb0813ea\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Just following on from Arena Williams, one of the questions I have and one of the suggestions I have is that these regulations are absolutely the guts of the bill, if you like, and they impose the real workings of where it hits the ground. I mean, I\u2019m looking in particular at clause 165(4), which talks about the interest, and I\u2019ve raised before that if the Minister doesn\u2019t make these regulations, then there are real problems. Nowhere that I can see, unless I\u2019ve missed it, is there any requirement that the regulations be made. We talked about that in respect of genetic testing, I\u2019ve talked about it in respect of interest rates, and I would very much like to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing I\u2019d say about regulations is that I see that the Minister has obligations to consult under clause 165(3). My concern in this area is always that consultation is undertaken but it\u2019s not balanced, and I\u2019m wondering if he could discuss whether he will be consulting with consumers or consumer organisations or whether perhaps he will be setting up some kind of reference group that can assist him to make sure that the consumer voice is properly and adequately heard when those regulations are made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00220575868e23b0484eaa3ca8106ebcca61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220575868e23b0484eaa3ca8106ebcca61\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E OK, well, we\u2019re really getting into the death knells of this, aren\u2019t we? Look, I\u2019ll just make the general point: clause\u00A0166 there is to do with insurance intermediary arrangements. We\u2019ve never used these arrangements before. They\u2019ve just been carried over. I don\u2019t really see a need for regulations to be made in respect of those. There are some very specific things that we will need to set through regulations, such as the interest rate in the event of death. There is some very specific stuff, but it\u2019s actually very limited in nature. This is just giving the regulation-making power, which, obviously, is better than putting it into primary legislation, because of things like interest rates that you may want to change over time. There\u2019s not a great requirement and not a great intent to go out and do a whole lot of regulations on it. Obviously, if we\u2019re going to do that, we will be talking to all relevant parties, and I do meet with the consumer advocacy groups quite regularly, actually. I\u2019ve met them over a number of bills. It will be horses for courses where appropriate, so I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any big deal in this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u002284cb000f190841ca973ee468c40afd5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284cb000f190841ca973ee468c40afd5c\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223899285feb944283b684fa62743d4030\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a5bbed8797af42be9f5e86dd2e22b2e6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 6 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 6 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee33a68c2eca4657a41ac3d3989d9c0e\u0022\u003EPart 7  Repeals and amendments to other Acts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00227d6d82a26960442a9bce46f2f64d8df4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d6d82a26960442a9bce46f2f64d8df4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 7. This is the debate on clauses 169 to 193, \u201CRepeals and amendments to other Acts\u201D; and Schedules 4 to 6. The question is that Part 7 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224bcc774b594c4f81b84829effa1c370f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bcc774b594c4f81b84829effa1c370f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very happy to have an opportunity to speak on this part but very unhappy about what is in this part. In particular, the insurance industry has got a free ride on unfair contracts to date. This was our opportunity to pull that industry into line and bring them into the Fair Trading Act unfair contract terms regime. Now, I don\u2019t know how they do it, but, once again, they\u2019ve managed to persuade the Minister to let them off the hook, because if you look at clause 176, which inserts new section 46KA into the Fair Trading Act, it\u2014in a kind of limp-wristed, half-hearted way\u2014brings the insurance industry into the unfair contracts regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThat regime, just for those who aren\u2019t aware of it, is a regime where if there is a clause in a standard form contract which is seen as unfair and onerous in a consumer contract, then it can be referred to the Commerce Commission, who can declare it as unfair and, essentially, strike it out. It\u2019s not heavily used, but there\u2019s nevertheless a discipline that sits out there\u2014particularly for large corporates like banks, insurance companies, and so on\u2014except insurers have been not, effectively, caught by it so far. Here we have a clause which is purporting to bring them into it, except it carves out a whole lot of aspects of an insurance contract which don\u2019t go into the regime, and, Minister, I think you should think very carefully about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, some of them you can kind of understand. The price, or, basically, the premiums\u2014so, in banking contracts, you can\u2019t complain about your interest rate, because that\u2019s, basically, the guts of the contract. It\u2019s the very nature of the contract. Similarly, in an insurance contract, the premiums are the premiums. You either accept them or you don\u2019t, but you can\u2019t really complain that they\u2019re unfair and get that struck out as some kind of unfair clause. But the one that\u2019s deeply offensive is exclusion clauses. In new section 46KA and the new subsection (2)(e), it says that \u201CFor the purposes of [this clause], a term of insurance defines the main subject matter of the contract\u201D and, therefore, can\u2019t be subject to the regime if it \u201Cexcludes or limits the liability of the insurer to indemnify the policyholder on the happening of certain events or on the existence of certain circumstances.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just understand what it means. It means an insurer is allowed an unfair exclusion clause. If they had an exclusion clause that says, \u201CYou\u2019re not insured if you\u2019re driving a red car.\u201D\u2014totally irrational and unfair\u2014you couldn\u2019t say that it\u2019s unfair, so it becomes really problematic. Now, there are exclusion clauses, and some of them are reasonable, but they shouldn\u2019t worry about that. If it\u2019s like \u201COK, if you\u2019re not a licensed driver, you\u2019re not insured.\u201D, that\u2019s fine\u2014that makes perfect sense. Or even some of the ones that push it a bit further: \u201CIf you\u2019re driving a car on something which isn\u2019t a legal road\u201D\u2014so you\u2019re off-roading\u2014\u201Cyou\u2019re not insured.\u201D, that\u2019s fine. They make sense; they\u2019re reasonable exclusion clauses. But exclusion clauses which are actually unfair things, which are irrational, and which don\u2019t make sense in the context of insurance can\u2019t be complained about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EYou can complain about your bank, you can complain about your electricity company, and you can complain about all of these terms of a contract in every other sphere of commerce and business, but somehow there\u2019s a wee free pass\u2014another free pass\u2014for the insurance industry, and this is a change. Minister, I\u2019d like to hear you speak to this and say, \u201CWhen I got this bill in its draft form, I listened to\u201D\u2014who?\u2014\u201Cand decided to change it.\u201D, and why, because this is not the draft that I saw. Certainly, in terms of unfair contract terms, insurers need to be brought into the regime, because as a matter of practice, insurers do rely on exclusion clauses and they need to be held to account. I think\u00A0this is the most invidious clause in this entire bill, and I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8e6a41cc77a4779b5f997ab04ba33f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8e6a41cc77a4779b5f997ab04ba33f0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Well, first of all, I reject the assertion that they\u2019re getting an easy ride. I think the former Minister got lost in this issue. I think it\u2019s fair to say that the member has had an exposure to the industry and he has come to a predetermined view about the reputation of insurance companies and whether they act in the best interests of their consumers, or policyholders, or not. I think that the previous drafting reflected his personal view about insurance companies, which was, basically, a very negative view about that industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhen I saw this clause, I had quite significant conversations with the insurance sector and asked them to give me good reasons why they would want this part of the bill changed. I listened to those arguments, and I also had officials arguing on the other side, and I\u2019ll tell you what: first of all, I think the former Minister got lost because he lost the big picture. If we were to continue with the provision that that Minister had in the original bill, that ultimately would have meant that every New Zealander would have ended up paying a higher policy premium, and, personally, I thought that was a bad thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa635a9043a34c9381ff066fb759157f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: That old shibboleth!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221828634328154f4591e033b91882eee0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: And here we are, we\u2019ve got a member from the Labour Party saying that they\u2019re standing for ordinary New Zealanders. Ideally, if he\u2019d slavishly followed his personal objective around this, this would have meant that \u201Cordinary New Zealanders\u201D\u2014to use those words; quote, unquote\u2014would have ended up paying more in their premiums than they ought. That was the first point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second point is that I don\u2019t think the member actually considered what the unintended consequences of what he had proposed in his former drafting were. The issue in New Zealand is that we have what\u2019s called an all-risk approach to insurance, which means that when you do take on a policy, in the main, it covers all risks. If we were to adopt the approach that the previous Minister had proposed, it would have pushed us towards the Australian model of being a defined-perils policy. That would have been even worse for New Zealanders, because then we would have had\u2014in the example of, let\u2019s say, a house event\u2014to try to define what would happen and what type of cover you would have in the event of a peril, and requiring the obligation for every policyholder\u2014all \u201Cordinary New Zealanders\u201D\u2014to be able to clearly define what the peril was that they wanted insurance for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, if they inadvertently missed one out, then they wouldn\u2019t be covered by the type of policies that are currently available in New Zealand. So that\u2019s the second point. That would have been an absolute adverse implication for the New Zealand insurance industry and also\u2014more importantly\u2014for policyholders in New Zealand. I think there is recognition that these contracts are different from banking contracts and the other ones that he referred to. Insurance policies are quite specific and different, and they need to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe final point was that he talked about the Fair Trading Act. Actually, insurers will be captured under the conduct of financial institutions regime, which comes into force on 31\u00A0March 2025\u2014i.e., in a few months\u2019 time. Therefore, they are subject to making sure they are operating in the best interest of their consumers, and I\u2019ve been very explicit to all industry players that that is one of their primary objectives. It is wrong to assume that they won\u2019t be subject to oversight; they will be. Ultimately, the proposal that the member put forward would have been bad for New Zealanders, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s been changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002249b5dbe2187043bb8ac5bc4039c5f07f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249b5dbe2187043bb8ac5bc4039c5f07f\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E This is an outrageous position for us to be in, in a committee stage, where we have a Minister in the chair alleging that another member has a personal view which has coloured the way that he has engaged with this legislation, when that Minister will not answer repeated questions from me about which submitters asked for certain changes\u2014when I know that there was only one stakeholder, in some cases, who asked for a certain change\u2014and whether that is an appropriate legislative process for this House to conduct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhether it is appropriate, Minister, I ask you very specifically this time: is it appropriate for the Insurance Council of New Zealand to be the only submitter to ask for a change, and for officials under your watch to make exactly the change they have asked for, to the detriment of consumers, and for you then\u2014for the Minister, then\u2014to claim to the media and to this House that he has initiated a legislative reform package which is good for consumers? We know that over and over and over again, in this piece of legislation has gone from a Labour piece of work which tried to balance the interests of consumers and insurers to a piece of legislation which went to Cabinet and was approved and removed many of those protections for consumers but was something that was still a reasonably balanced package of legal reform that was still very much needed, and then to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, where one or two\u2014only one or two\u2014submitters asked for a certain change in certain areas and were then given that change, and then it was introduced into this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIs that an appropriate way for legislation to be then signed off in this House? These are the questions. This is why we are asking these questions over and over again, and we have not got an answer to that. Then for the Minister to give a speech that alleges that a member in this committee has a personal, biased view of certain stakeholders is absolutely outrageous. We are owed an answer to the questions about who is asking for these changes, whether they are widely supported, and whether they are still in the interests of consumers, like it is being claimed here and like it is being presented? Inevitably what will be said by the Minister in the third reading is that this is a piece of law which benefits consumers and fairly benefits them in regards to their interests being balanced with those of the insurers, who have much more power in these situations than they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy question is about the changes here: which ones were changes which were in response to one or two stakeholders, and which ones were supported more widely? I\u2019m also going to ask him about the prioritisation: which ones were the priority of the insurance industry and which ones were only supported by a few but were seen by him as changes which were worthy of making?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd6d916a45bf42c1b7371025b9ec3f9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd6d916a45bf42c1b7371025b9ec3f9f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Look, the member may feign enragement about the whole thing, but these changes were included in the draft bill that went before the Finance and Expenditure Committee. There has been no surprise about it; there\u2019s been absolutely no surprise. It\u2019s been through a long select committee process, and, interestingly, the member should be aware\u2014I hope she\u2019s aware\u2014there were actually a lot of submitters on this point, on this issue that has been raised here, and, in general, there were very few opposed. Most of them were strongly in favour of this bill and the proposal around this specific issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis is what a parliamentary process is: they go through a select committee process, they have a good hearing, and they have people come submit on it. We\u2019re obviously doing a committee of the whole House today. To be outraged about it and to try and say that some sort of blind-siding event has occurred is wrong. It\u2019s been through a full select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7f4f70d731842eeafb641860d3f1978\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7f4f70d731842eeafb641860d3f1978\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has further considered the Contracts of Insurance Bill and reports that it has made progress on the bill. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed3b118f27634af7970282d0e6d8a30f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed3b118f27634af7970282d0e6d8a30f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House will adjourn until 2 p.m. this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411051cf894db990044e3a87f8fdc4f08f2c4000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.57 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"