"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022387e3d3f2cce45adbcb852f25a2e84dd\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 19 NOVEMBER 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f321e80f148a48e983efe9b10d994c26\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 19 NOVEMBER 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022742dc630264149b9bf0544c368e9191f\u0022\u003EKARAKIA/PRAYERS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c665b5364dc94798acccdea12cb125de\u0022\u003EKARAKIA/PRAYERS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022578fd6aefd3e4431a5dd3ab9b470e761\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022578fd6aefd3e4431a5dd3ab9b470e761\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility, for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c3a02d9617f4bb78a86b7915e77fc61\u0022\u003EPrivilege\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2cf672848814715a239970ab5314562\u0022\u003EConduct of Members in the House\u2014Consideration of Question of Privilege\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4d1852477d940dabc96e42237d5d774\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4d1852477d940dabc96e42237d5d774\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve received letters from the Hon Shane Jones, Suze Redmayne, and Todd Stephenson raising a matter of privilege around the conduct of some members during the vote on the first reading of the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill on 14\u00A0November 2024. In line with usual practice, those members have been asked to respond to me by 1 p.m. on Thursday. I\u2019ll then consider whether a question of privilege has arisen, and whether that question will stand referred to the Privileges Committee in each case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0bc1a6df5284d3287050e595944103c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0bc1a6df5284d3287050e595944103c\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df0190b68eb4491a9e4845f96b5620a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the Hon Shane Jones\u2014well, let me sit down first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226066000e187046c680e47bd701687fe9\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve earned it. I don\u2019t want to comment on anything that may or may not make its way to the Privileges Committee, but I\u2019m concerned, based on what happened\u2014the coordinated level of disruptiveness and the prevention of votes being cast\u2014at whether or not the Standing Orders that we currently have are still of the level of robustness that will provide protection to the essence of our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESeparate from the Privileges Committee, I\u2019m asking for you to consider whether we\u2019ve reached a point where you should invite a number of very senior parliamentarians to consider whether the Standing Orders are now incapable of dealing with the event that took place last week. That event will no doubt be dealt with in some manner or form after a view has been formed by you pertaining to privileges violation. I\u2019m not seeking a response today, but it is very important, in my view, that the House and New Zealanders see you take this position and this issue incredibly seriously and provide back to us a level of guidance, whether or not the deterrence, the range of censure options, are such that we now need to reform, sharpen, and bring the Standing Orders into a world where it is apparent that a host of members no longer fear the consequences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00224efdab5491c0493e9da3cd3e96908216\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224efdab5491c0493e9da3cd3e96908216\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to very briefly offer support for that course of action, understanding that there\u2019s a course of events that need to take place. I think some of the changes, particularly around the use of social media, have changed the incentives for people\u2019s behaviour around the rules of Parliament and that perhaps an early Standing Orders Committee could be convened to address those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd6c25d6396143dd910d64787c697fea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd6c25d6396143dd910d64787c697fea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for those comments. Can I just make the first comment to the Hon Shane Jones that it would be unfortunate if some aspects of your contribution today were to be construed as some critique that I was not taking this matter seriously. That is not the case\u2014I take it very seriously. You and the Hon David Seymour quite rightly point out that there are limitations on what a Speaker can do within the Standing Orders. Last week, one way or the other, both at the time of the incident and matters subsequently, that position was significantly challenged. The right place, as the Hon David Seymour points out, for this discussion is the Standing Orders Committee. That committee will convene at the earliest convenience to the House; obviously, not in the recess week, but perhaps the week after, as a bit of dust settles, to work out exactly what might be a better set of rules\u2014which the Standing Orders are\u2014should events like this occur in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7de8b66928e4143a5c519d84c52c0f0\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a56a07a5c8b413ca30bcbc034bccab9\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002258b150bb54904723bd103ddc6805d54c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258b150bb54904723bd103ddc6805d54c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Two petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002250d956fd8b7645d6ad19e035034a51cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250d956fd8b7645d6ad19e035034a51cd\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Hugh Donald requesting that the House urge the Government to establish a royal commission of inquiry to investigate what the petitioner believes are miscarriages of justice by ACC to claimants and entitlements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Geoffrey Mortlock requesting that the House urge the Government to impose sanctions on Israel until Israel has withdrawn from all Palestinian territory and has reverted to the borders established for Israel in 1947.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8c7f3ba820849cf963ee9e122f28486\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8c7f3ba820849cf963ee9e122f28486\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered 20 papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002225a204bbbf5041e0b8c2742396b53086\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225a204bbbf5041e0b8c2742396b53086\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023-24 annual reports for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAntarctica New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECrown Infrastructure Partners Limited\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EEducation Payroll Limited\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Infrastructure Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENg\u0101rimu VC and 28th (M\u0101ori) Battalion Memorial Scholarship Fund Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EPrivacy Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ERau Paenga Limited\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EReal Estate Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ETransport Accident Investigation Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMaritime New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ETe M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ETe Taura Whiri I Te Reo M\u0101ori\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinisterial Response to the referral of the Petition of Reality Check Radio on \u2018Accept Reality Check Radio\u2019s \u201CPeople\u2019s Terms\u201D for the Covid Inquiry\u2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EThe Section 8I Report: A report on the progress made on implementation of Waitangi Tribunal recommendations to the Crown, 2022-23\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2024-28 statements of intent for Rau Paenga Limited, Transport Accident Investigation Commission, and Maritime New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2024-25 statements of performance expectations for Rau Paenga Limited, Transport Accident Investigation Commission, and Maritime New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf6e32b131c44de49c6d3a8913635220\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf6e32b131c44de49c6d3a8913635220\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Four select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00228c7e197ae31a4aa7967f78eb6a7c86b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c7e197ae31a4aa7967f78eb6a7c86b1\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Petitions Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of John Hearnshaw: New Zealand needs a national law to limit light pollution and promote dark skies, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Muhammad Dahlan: Create a special visa for Palestinians in Gaza who have family members in NZ\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Social Services and Community Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Nola Blainey: Halt K\u0101inga Ora social housing developments proposed for Kerikeri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224ae70d4e195b4603b119e9e650beba41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ae70d4e195b4603b119e9e650beba41\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5be336d0eff4975a835862f237564bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5be336d0eff4975a835862f237564bd\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Oranga Tamariki (Responding to Serious Youth Offending) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022fafce8c55adc4f6bb3fc8ae9fb584463\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fafce8c55adc4f6bb3fc8ae9fb584463\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022038022fe5a9f442d8f94e238fbf3c8a9\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002265ce61f3e0104ba3b0473185b672450d\u0022\u003EPike River Mine Disaster\u2014Anniversary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00226dd4ac564e0d44f8ab3fe670bdef47a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dd4ac564e0d44f8ab3fe670bdef47a8\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave to move a motion without notice and without debate acknowledging the anniversary of the Pike River disaster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abba4083843342a0a6fe4ae0d7e2046f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b118ac3e92c4f0590cad744b6dfb2b1\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House note that today in 2010, 29 miners lost their lives while at work in the Pike River Mine, express its condolences to family and friends who will forever be profoundly impacted, and thank rescue and support teams for their service on that day and the days that followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f02f7e2647ba4b6cb2acd83b5ed22990\u0022\u003EMinisterial Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1ffefe62f8f492c8bb6bdb85691a15a\u0022\u003EDefence Act 1990\u2014Authorisations Made Under Section 9(2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00228df35390221d43b4be1976714df3c39e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228df35390221d43b4be1976714df3c39e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Acting Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to make a ministerial statement regarding authorisations made under section 9(2) of the Defence Act 1990. I rise to make another statement under Standing Order 356 in relation to the use of the armed forces to perform a public service in connection with an industrial dispute. Today, I am advising the House why three new authorisations have been given by the Minister of Defence, in line with section 9 of the Defence Act 1990. The first two of these new authorisations relates to work undertaken at Kauri Point, the armament depot in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFirst, the Minister of Defence has again agreed for uniformed personnel to provide security guard services at Kauri Point. It is in the public interest that security of defence areas can be maintained throughout the industrial dispute, to ensure public safety and national security. This is especially pertinent noting the munitions and weapons held at Kauri Point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESecond, weapons and munitions at Kauri Point need to be prepared before they can be loaded on to HMNZS Te Kaha, one of the navy\u2019s Anzac class frigates, for an upcoming deployment. Preparation work must be completed once it is started, for health and safety reasons, often taking longer than 10 hours. Strike action cannot be allowed to get in the way of this. As such, the Minister of Defence has given authority for Air Force armament technicians and qualified weapons technicians from the New Zealand Army to inspect, maintain and service, prepare, uplift, and deliver weapons and munitions to Te Kaha while civilians in the Public Service Association\u2014or PSA\u2014involved in the strike action refuse to work overtime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe last authorisation relates to the PSA\u2019s strike notice, including a refusal to wear ear protection. Striking PSA members located at Base Auckland therefore cannot perform the required systems testing before the upcoming deployment of an SH-2G(I) helicopter as this testing generates excessive noise. The Minister of Defence has therefore authorised an electronic warfare intelligence specialist from the Royal New Zealand Air Force to undertake this work while strike action is occurring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThese three authorisations have a mandate until 2 December, and it is intended that this House extends this date until 14 February 2025 to cover the entire strike action period. Contrary to what some may wish to believe, we do not live in a benign strategic environment. The New Zealand Defence Force must, therefore, continue to prioritise military outputs in the current fiscal environment, to ensure that New Zealand plays its part in maintaining the international rules-based order. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220a3ae9ff46ae4b2b8b9be0b96aaab7cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a3ae9ff46ae4b2b8b9be0b96aaab7cb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Last week, on behalf of the New Zealand Labour Party, I made some introductory comments which I think suffice for my introduction here\u2014there\u2019s no need to take the House\u2019s time by repeating those comments. If I could ask the Minister a couple of questions. Last week I asked the Minister of Defence whether there had been a prior instance of section 9(2) of the Defence Act having been utilised after a zero percent wage offer was made, leading to strike action\u2014the then Minister couldn\u2019t answer. I was wondering if the Minister is able to enlighten the House on that issue today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00224273f9514b0344509286ece1e7a8944c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224273f9514b0344509286ece1e7a8944c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Acting Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my understanding that in 2001, the Department of Corrections workers, who were at that time undertaking industrial action, were effectively\u2014or, their duties were authorised to be carried out in the manner equivalent to that which we are discussing in today\u2019s motion by New Zealand Defence Force personnel. I don\u2019t know the detail in terms of a zero increase pay offer having been made, but I would point out that it\u2019s as recently as the period of the last Government in which New Zealand Defence Force personnel, both uniform and civilian, were offered zero percent pay increases for a much longer period of time than is contemplated in this motion. I think those members would be surprised to understand that members of political parties that now form the Opposition have discovered an intense interest in their pay and conditions in this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2daf9080240484986d13a9f47a54022\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2daf9080240484986d13a9f47a54022\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I must express surprise to the Government that, having asked that question last week, the Minister\u2019s not in a position to answer it today. Perhaps he could answer the other question that the Minister was unable to help the House with last week when I asked what was the effect of inflation on the real terms and conditions of those workers since they last had a wage increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022e91eba9fd25f4369a3cedc0132a38ad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e91eba9fd25f4369a3cedc0132a38ad6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Acting Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Suffice to say that inflationary pressures have affected many workers throughout New Zealand, again both civilian and uniform, within the Defence Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226232f0c2f8ab4f468f17613483659ab5\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks to your Government, Mr Parker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed28f74914954d899fbccbbebfc3bb1b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I mean, members opposite might well know that, having caused this situation in the first place. That has not uniquely affected Defence, but they have been affected by it, of course, along with others. I would simply make the point in addressing that question that has been posed, that the effect of inflation and those cost of living pressures on our defence force is much less than it would have been had the previous Government continued its spendthrift ways to continue to drive up inflation and the cost of living. We are pleased as a Government as a whole to be doing something about that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223c63b9f870bd437795a82c489253404c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c63b9f870bd437795a82c489253404c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister is asking the House to take note of this proposal to bring in military personnel to perform civilian roles, but is still not in a position to advise the House in respect of the issues that were raised both this week and last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022aceff8ee05ff412b9e1940b874192227\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aceff8ee05ff412b9e1940b874192227\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Acting Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I consider that I have responded. If the member doesn\u2019t like the responses, that is his problem, not mine, and it\u2019s not the problem of the Government. Our focus has been to ameliorate the situation as best we can, both in terms of our international security situation\u2014and I\u2019m pleased to note as recently as days just gone by, the level of international engagement from the Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and Minister of Trade at APEC. But in terms of the security situation, we are very minded of the need to prioritise the preservation of the international rules-based order\u2014that\u2019s one of the key priorities of our defence force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn turn, we know that Defence need to be valued; they need to be looked after in terms of being provided with the resources. Within that, Defence has made the decision\u2014and we support the decision\u2014to prioritise uniform personnel who are delivering those outputs in the very direct way that they are, albeit that of course we recognise the important role played by Defence civilians. No doubt the good-faith negotiations that are taking place now will be resolved as soon as possible. We hope and expect that this will take place by late January or, if not by then, then mid-February. That is the basis for these authorisations having been made, including with the extensions of time, as already discussed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002220f3d13d7290413aa408e055e43fb89e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220f3d13d7290413aa408e055e43fb89e\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I acknowledge the three new authorisations that the Minister has spoken about, and I echo the sentiments of\u00A0the Hon David Parker around the sense of frustration about getting clear answers from the\u00A0Minister when it comes to the history of using these powers to bring in military personnel to cover for civilian personnel. I want to pick up on one of the last bits of the ministerial statement, particularly the bit that says\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cthe New Zealand Defence Force must\u00A0continue to deliver military outputs in this strained fiscal environment.\u201D I want to ask: what level of advocacy, if any, has the Minister done in the past to prevent this fiscal environment from happening, because we acknowledge that this fiscal environment did not just happen organically. It was due to political decisions by successive Governments, including this one\u00A0that led to the strike action. Can I ask: what level of advocacy has the Minister done to\u00A0alleviate the so-called strained fiscal environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00225598859b846c425d8ef71ae6ac52fd14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225598859b846c425d8ef71ae6ac52fd14\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Acting Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not a research assistant for either of the members of Parliament opposite who have asked me a question that is not directly relevant to the motion today. If they wish to know the history and the background of industrial relations, they are welcome to research that themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of the advocacy that this side of the House\u2014and I acknowledge the three parties that make up with the Government, including my own party. I was pleased to be able to have a role as an Opposition spokesperson for defence at a time that the previous Government was\u00A0devaluing their contribution by giving an indefinite deployment in relation to COVID-19 that was very far removed from the intention that most of them had when they signed up. Of course, they did that without complaint while they were in uniform, but many left\u2014a\u00A0huge\u00A0attrition rate. We were consistent in advocating for those personnel to be given pay and conditions and, more importantly, deployment that actually reflected their intention and their desire to serve our country in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI also note the advocacy that this side of the House made in relation to members of the defence force who were being paid below the minimum wage at a certain period of time during the last Government. And, you know, we\u2019re surprised\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297bf38c4baab4edb8e2abe27863ea2f7\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: That can\u2019t be right\u2014below the minimum wage. It would have been illegal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211b199efcfb9444782aaa494d2a21491\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, I didn\u2019t wish to take the House\u2019s time too much, but, for the benefit of the Hon David Parker, who clearly missed that point at the time, and colleagues of his who clearly didn\u2019t, the situation arose where minimum pay was set for members of the army who were doing certain work for the Government. It included a military factor\u2014or \u201Cmil factor\u201D, as it\u2019s known\u2014component within that minimum wage. For reservists who did not receive that mil factor, their hourly pay rate fell below that of the\u00A0minimum wage. Now, technically\u2014technically\u2014that\u2019s not a breach of the law because that\u2019s the arrangements in relation to employment law. I was surprised, as he was, at the time, but we did something about it\u2014that was our advocacy among other things. Again, I\u2019m just impressed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0513364d91f4d8c97b69018b60459a1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right\u2014that\u2019s enough. This is a ministerial statement and not a debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d483a4b4d24503a3c2d1e3e5f87123\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he\u2019s interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b7cdba0fd44356ac605fc0642bd901\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon? Given that we\u2019ve had both questions, interjections, and answers that have been well wide of the motion, I\u2019d ask the member to bring it back to the matters that are before the House at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220f3a678e2bc14b70a40bc0b2c5ccecb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f3a678e2bc14b70a40bc0b2c5ccecb2\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Absolutely. I\u2019ll just quote another bit of the motion, particularly the bit that talks about how \u201Cit is intended that the House extend this\u00A0date until 14 February\u201D next year. Earlier, the motion talked about how the three authorisations have a mandate until 2 December. May I ask the Minister: why 14\u00A0February? To me, it actually seems like we could have put the date as the first week back to Parliament to then assess where things were at. This seems like rather than enabling for us to come back after the summer break to assess where things were at, it\u2019s just kind of going way above and\u00A0beyond that. I want to know: why did he not decide to pull the date sooner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022a24cebb408ec4fc390eb4dc545efc415\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a24cebb408ec4fc390eb4dc545efc415\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Acting Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E My understanding is that the strike notice, or the industrial action, generally has a specified date at the end of January to which it can take place. A further two weeks from that seems prudent for the purpose then of resetting normal arrangements, whereby rosters can be made, people can be given notice for duties that they might undertake, including out of ordinary 9 to 5, Monday to Friday work times. The date of mid-February seems to us prudent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002232cd4219ef7541b49daecc8c8f1b8488\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232cd4219ef7541b49daecc8c8f1b8488\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E That doesn\u2019t necessarily acknowledge that strike action can also be called off should there be movement in negotiations, and, if so, why did he not consider that when it came to setting those dates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00220bc4771fef32481f9a2cab2736de05f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bc4771fef32481f9a2cab2736de05f0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Acting Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E That may be true, but it\u2019s also true that an authorisation need not be exercised for the full period of its duration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a6e80032f00414e8dcdeb2a3a4a32db\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f008c931e49d4ce59e2a290ecac2ab02\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223008f69e9dd94f60919ca3214d2262e9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022728caa4813594c14a32eff70dabfe27c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022728caa4813594c14a32eff70dabfe27c\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022da1ecddd7b224e54a55bfe95881ac86f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da1ecddd7b224e54a55bfe95881ac86f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea56da73fc99415c9debe6d0a2e9e326\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: How can he say that this Government represents all New Zealanders when he refuses to go outside and front the tens of thousands of New Zealanders gathered here today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b8801ad57314c938ebae9349d44b04b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Our position is very clear. We had a delegation from the National Party representing our position, receiving the h\u012Bkoi, and making clear our point of view, which is that we\u2019re not supporting the bill beyond first reading, therefore it won\u2019t become law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022509a0666f1ec4358a891245199399a2c\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Why is that crowd of tens of thousands of people not good enough for him to go out there and front the decision that he just made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5e4ff61089d4945a7c38577d9f323cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the characterisation of that question. As I said, the National Party sent a delegation out, representing our position, to receive the h\u012Bkoi. I\u2019ve also met with iwi leaders up and down the country and will continue to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e69599b984450da40590d7959bd23d\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the point of meeting with iwi leaders across the country when their clear demand is for the Government to kill the bill and he has not done that, with all of the opportunities that he has had to abandon this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272247fc43588470192fda3c0a7447e45\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of your question, the reason I meet with iwi leaders is because we want to improve outcomes for M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. When we see 12 percent of M\u0101ori getting to high school at the standard they need to be for on mathematics because of the previous Government, that\u2019s not great. When we see the number of M\u0101ori young kids in emergency motel accommodation and the work that we\u2019ve done subsequently since coming to Government to take them out of there to put them into a proper house, that\u2019s the stuff that we talk about. When we work with Waikato-Tainui to make sure we\u2019re working on social housing, that\u2019s the work that we\u2019re interested in\u2014making sure we improve outcomes for M\u0101ori, not this stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267cd4dabdef942aaa3cfa7e65dc2d1b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is not going to be a day where there\u2019s a great deal of tolerance for repeated interjections that are more of an insult than anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022679f387c41234b4db43982ceae4d4dca\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Why would he give false hope to New Zealanders that their voice matters when he has said that the bill will be killed at second reading?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb78cde45ea24a86bd51b7038694a6a8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s been a longstanding position of the National Party. We came to a compromise under an MMP environment in forming a coalition\u00A0Government. We agree on many, many things between the three parties in this\u00A0coalition Government; we don\u2019t agree on this. We came to a compromise. We\u2019re not supporting it beyond first reading. It won\u2019t become law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfeb7353abbd44a2a0dc25c4c8de90d4\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister tell the House which of the following two organisations is most supportive of charter schools, kura hourua: is it (a) the Green Party or (b) the Iwi Chairs Forum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd7fa7ffd9114a3aa5fcb58d6ae804ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the Iwi Chairs Forum, but they\u2019re also very supportive\u2014many iwi\u2014about what we\u2019re doing around fast-track legislation, which is actually getting things built in this country. And I would really ask the member to actually get her party to support the fast-track legislation. If you care about climate change, end the oil and gas ban, support fast-track legislation, and get in behind that agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227995aab758694d05bbd526bf309a042b\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Speakers\u2019 rulings make it quite clear that Ministers are not to introduce new material into the answers. The question was quite clear\u2014and, in my view, it was questionable, but, nevertheless, we don\u2019t dispute that. It was allowed in, and so we go with it. But the question was about charter schools. It wasn\u2019t about fast track, it wasn\u2019t about deep-sea mining or anything else that the Prime Minister introduced. He shouldn\u2019t have been allowed to carry on with\u00A0that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221697fd788ba94296813d8eae0ab46193\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that might be your view, but when the primary question says \u201Call statements and actions\u201D, I think it\u2019s a fair game for anything that gets introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226451d36592b34125b3881b4ad276308a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister as to whether it\u2019s a fact that in the classical M\u0101ori way of former times\u2014and, around the country, still of late\u2014if they want someone to speak to them, they usually invite you to come along, and they didn\u2019t because the M\u0101ori Party told them they didn\u2019t want to see anybody else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270c2ce5b4e214b5da4d7d62d660602f1\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I think in both the last questions we have seen patsy questions being asked very much attacking parties of the Opposition in the very specific line of questioning, including naming them. So I just wanted to check with you, Mr Speaker, for your guidance around whether that\u2019s an adequate use of patsies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df4f9901df3a4f5faf732b9d4eee21e3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got to be kidding! The opening supplementary was about why the Prime Minister didn\u2019t turn up to speak to the h\u012Bkoi today. Now, we\u2019re still on the same question. The member who just asked the question hasn\u2019t had a supplementary to that point. The Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2014ask it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efcdbbe3513c4bdda09fa1c634bbb1c6\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a patsy question and you know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f01a25e3d3949438a03c84819276f2e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case that in classical M\u0101ori behaviour in former times and around the rohe of late is to, when they want to speak to someone, ask them to come and speak, but in this case they did not ask political party leaders to speak; more importantly, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori told them not to come?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6933f75d2e04d71a79557c5e27d5051\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s true\u2014I wasn\u2019t invited to speak. But my message to the general audience at the h\u012Bkoi is the same: we will not support the bill beyond first reading, and therefore it won\u2019t become law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288939323e35d4879acec432b2baa481f\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I did not want to interrupt the question or the answer to that last supplementary, but as you concluded your ruling, a member\u2014I think Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2014called out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1bc109f3470489e8a0d870b2a1793fd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. Can you just say that again? I just missed that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225416e090a04749d6883ea9cd9d47958e\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. As you concluded your ruling before that supplementary, an Opposition member\u2014I think Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2014called out in response to your ruling \u201Cembarrassing\u201D. Now, I think if we\u2019re going to uphold standards in the House, then that sort of thing\u2014contesting a Speaker\u2019s ruling like that\u2014should be called out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb3094136e046f3b6286c4caaeef62d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think it was self-admonishment. He was embarrassed that he didn\u2019t realise we\u2019re on the same question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e6c8c6495e740f5a603c9900c659339\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: How are people supposed to trust him when he\u2019s willing to compromise on the founding document of our country in his coalition agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5c5bfe8096646a597a0d4be6b642386\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, New Zealanders can trust us that we\u2019re going to deliver on improving outcomes for M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. That is why this Government is\u00A0working so incredibly hard to rebuild the economy, because M\u0101ori want higher incomes, M\u0101ori want better quality housing, M\u0101ori want much better quality education outcomes, and\u00A0they want access to timely quality healthcare as well. That\u2019s what this Government\u2019s focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc1521118b8c44e0a24a30752c468a43\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00224d85b7bfeefa4550bd40de310f77c0cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d85b7bfeefa4550bd40de310f77c0cd\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Justice: What recent announcements has he seen regarding the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022799f42baa3f54ab48705259a8e6b5a15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022799f42baa3f54ab48705259a8e6b5a15\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Two of note in the last few days: one being that the bill was read a first time, agreed to by the House, and referred to the Justice Committee. The second announcement was just this morning, that the Justice Committee is now seeking public submissions from all New Zealanders on their views on the bill. This is the first time in our history that all New Zealanders have been offered an equal chance to have a say on what our constitutional future means under the Treaty of Waitangi, and I\u2019d encourage people to get along to the Justice Committee website and have their voice heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a43da48e90d499e841e1b37241ac9b8\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the first reading of the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229045021cb7a4c0580fb5d1e70617d50\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have to say there\u2019s been quite a lot of reportage on the topic, but if I was to try and boil it down it would be a contrast between people who want to have a respectful and rational debate about our constitutional future and the way the principles of the Treaty have evolved in recent years, versus people who resort to name calling, abuse, and theatrics but not actually engaging with the argument, and I think that contrast is perfectly clear for New Zealanders, and I think there\u2019ll be some people in this House who want to review which side of that divide they\u2019d like to be on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb7b981ac61e4df79ce5d738f2a706ec\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders have their say on the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d201b436199e4761a3edb303fb704d2f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I mentioned, from now until 11.59 p.m. on 7\u00A0January, the Justice Committee will be accepting submissions, and I think it\u2019s very important that people have a view on this bill and the issues surrounding it; actually have their say, and make sure that they do it in a respectful and constructive way with a view to how our country can work together under this Treaty principles bill, perhaps with improvements suggested by people at select committee. Having this kind of debate and reflection is healthy for New Zealand, and I invite people to make those submissions to the Justice Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022afdd0f2b663b441c9359f42e9b3d0a3d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb328546ffd74b7ab9cda864bdfcf690\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb328546ffd74b7ab9cda864bdfcf690\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Minister of Finance: What recent announcements has the Government made about improving capital infrastructure investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00225886a1ffa0cf4a60b773a1edd5c64709\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225886a1ffa0cf4a60b773a1edd5c64709\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Acting Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E Last week, the Minister for Infrastructure and under-secretary Simon Court announced a refresh of the Government\u2019s public/private partnership (PPP) framework to improve investment practice by utilising private sector expertise and discipline, which will help the Government lift our game in how we plan, deliver, and maintain significant assets. We\u2019ve made six targeted changes to the framework, involving smarter allocation of risk; recognising, and in some cases reimbursing bid costs; stronger collaboration between the Crown and bidders in the tendering phase; and\u00A0ensuring the upcoming National Infrastructure Agency provides robust and centralised PPP expertise and improvements to the dispute resolution process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d82d1857205a4dcdba1b0cfdbfdec0fe\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: How will PPPs support better investment discipline and infrastructure outcomes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e22a3569424492c932aa074d7fd5f41\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: When done well, public/private partnerships drive better performance compared to other approaches. This is because PPPs have strong contractual incentives for on time and on budget delivery, agreed levels of service, and ensuring assets are maintained through their lifespan. With a PPP, taxpayers know what they\u2019re getting, and they get what they pay for. When private capital is on the line, private partners are fiercely driven to deliver contractually defined outcomes in a way that optimises the project across its life, ensuring it is planned and designed well from the start. In short, this is about getting the incentives aligned and getting them right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200fb8c6ffd5f4916b194ef928982fa8c\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Government consider using PPPs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc92b3e67e124365b4d7a59f613d28ec\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, PPPs will not be the best model for all projects. All procurement and delivery models have pros and cons, and the best model will depend on the characteristics of each project. But we know that PPPs are likely to be more successful where a project is large and complex, and where the desired outcomes are well defined, enabling clear contractual obligations. These are the types of projects where there\u2019s risk transfer, whole of life project optimisation, innovation, and strong contractual incentives. PPPs in New Zealand are not new; there have been eight since 2011, including three bundles of primary and secondary schools that were carried on through the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239be795891534d419b73d92f12b1d351\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has she seen on the market\u2019s reaction to the PPP model refresh?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6608b45fa394216855a3672a95a8593\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The market reaction\u2019s been very positive. Quoting Nick Leggett, Chief Executive of Infrastructure in New Zealand, he said it \u201Csets out the right incentives and accountability mechanisms to enable PPPs to play an important role in meeting [our] infrastructure needs.\u201D I would also like to note for the House that the document we launched last week contains a foreword from the Prime Minister and myself and the under-secretary, and I would like to publicly thank Barbara Edmonds from the Labour Party on behalf of the Opposition for putting forward a foreword to the document. The Government is keen to work on getting the foundations of our infrastructure system right, and making sure that we are best placed to go forward into the 2030s and beyond where we have a strong system. Getting our PPP framework right is part and parcel of that, so I\u2019d like to thank Barbara Edmonds for that contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002287518e1a07d845369a44fcd77e725bb7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002230d9ca791e544c7798dc7e11cd3e6764\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230d9ca791e544c7798dc7e11cd3e6764\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Minister of Finance: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CWe know that to be successful in driving growth we need you and your colleagues in the business community on board\u201D; if so, is the business community on board with the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0a1bbc7e24d40a4a8654039ac5d89da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0a1bbc7e24d40a4a8654039ac5d89da\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Acting Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Well, on behalf of the Minister of Finance, to the first part of the question, yes. To the second part of the question, I don\u2019t have responsibility for either the business community or, indeed, the bill, but what I will say is that my sense from the business community is that, much like the rest of the country, there are a variety of opinions on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb520c5265349e0b09ad7c3ed475bf5\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received any advice about the impact of the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill and associated divisiveness on New Zealand\u2019s sovereign risk rating?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aed14eb22dda4218adf24ea0cab155f1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister of Finance, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a7c04c76ae544068f7ddc169e22348f\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Morrison \u0026amp; Co CEO Paul Newfield that \u201CWe need to move away from small-minded divisive issues and focus on building a better New Zealand together\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b491da92b5c0439e96a30c1e1177c492\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I generally agree with what Mr Newfield has to say. He\u2019s a very smart man. What I would say is that this Government is intensely focused on building a New Zealand that is more productive, smarter around how it uses capital, and drives economic growth for the future. I know Mr Newfield shares those ambitions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f54d20cc01848f2918df3a2b5810d40\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Foodstuffs North Island CEO Chris Quin: \u201CIf Seymour is really focused on long-term economic growth and productivity, that would be fine, but his obsession with divisive social issues that energise people on the fringes of the New Zealand political debate make him the wrong person to wear that badge\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227a308b8325b49d4bfd42526dd665164\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on behalf of the Minister of Finance, it\u2019s possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, and while the National Party has a different view to one of the governing parties in the coalition on the Treaty principles bill\u2014that\u2019s been well canvassed\u2014what I can say in a ministerial context is that Minister Seymour is intensely focused on productivity and is leading the charge on foreign investment reform inside the Government and on a range of red-tape - busting initiatives to get Government off the back of businesses, who are just trying to make an honest buck in the world and grow this economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226701fb2a7f614ce2813d82a4949cd71d\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How can her Government claim to be focused on supporting the economy and growth when it is distracted with the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daec257db1af441c8871336561b71b8b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on behalf of the Minister of Finance, the only person who, I think, has got very excited about it and distracted is members of the Labour Party, including herself. This Government\u2019s driving mission\u2014this Government\u2019s driving ambition and mission\u2014in politics, and the reason why it was elected almost a year or so ago, is to lift our ambitions as a country, get out of the mire of low growth, both in growth and productivity, and get this economy growing again, because, ultimately, the only way to build a prosperous and ambitious country that New Zealanders want to stay in and not leave and to build the types of public services that New Zealanders demand\u2014the only sustainable way to create that\u2014is economic growth and getting this joint going again, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re focused on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002256720cb6280d406c9be275b352f0e30b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ade2e4e5f60b49c5be2f1cd33a132b05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ade2e4e5f60b49c5be2f1cd33a132b05\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What recent announcements has he made about contactless payments on Auckland\u2019s public transport network?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002214d30222fc97444cae514131d1e5fc4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214d30222fc97444cae514131d1e5fc4e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E On Thursday, I announced alongside the Mayor of Auckland, Wayne Brown, that the Government and Auckland Council have delivered contactless payments on Auckland\u2019s public transport network, to enable commuters to tag on and off public buses, trains, and ferries travelling across the region. The New Zealand Transport Agency and Auckland Council have jointly funded the delivery of contactless payments on the Auckland transport network, which provides Aucklanders with more travel choices to get where they need to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022851c38d112cb4566a5656d544b01638c\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: Excellent. What options do Aucklanders now have to pay on public transport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5c0a543e99406fa806ea5257f5fe99\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: From Sunday, Aucklanders have more ways to pay on Auckland\u2019s buses, trains, and ferries. In addition to HOP Cards, Aucklanders and visitors to the city are now able to tag on and off using contactless debit cards, credit cards, as well as Apple Pay and Google Pay on their smartphones or smartwatches. This is fantastic news for Aucklanders and it takes away the hassle of needing cash or a HOP card.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe026e8f698e4f2db0be7d11705a0d8a\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: How will the roll-out of contactless payments benefit Aucklanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227bdacad9e244f75815afd96d632e87b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Rolling out contactless debit and credit card payments for public transport users will be a game-changer. Not only will it make public transport services more convenient and easier to use but it will also help give Aucklanders more transport choices. It\u2019s all part of our Government\u2019s plan to increase travel choices and help people get where they need to go quickly and safely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224651d7b5ece146919d413eff7f39ce99\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: What plans does the Government have to roll out contactless payments across the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a70fc1425394008b2d3810f2cf2ddba\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Good question. The roll-out of contactless payments in Auckland\u2019s public transport network is the first step delivering New Zealand\u2019s one National Ticketing Solution. Contactless payments on public transport are common elsewhere around the world, and this will ensure New Zealanders have the same standard of service. The roll-out of contactless payments will expand to Timaru and Christchurch in early 2025 and it will reach other regions by the end of 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc499fd29e6b47c3b830f29e4d1372f1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002261b8f610d71f48caadb247fa57e8e33f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261b8f610d71f48caadb247fa57e8e33f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations: How does he assess the impact of the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill on the Crown\u2019s ability to honour its Treaty obligations with Treaty settlements that have been completed, particularly regarding partnership, protection, and participation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022db8ff7755e4e4ec18c04ac1c63910c4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db8ff7755e4e4ec18c04ac1c63910c4f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E With great care, although I should note that ministerial responsibility for post-Treaty settlement issues lies with the Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations, which I\u2019m sure the Opposition spokesperson\u2019s well aware of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205203dbbe8a043dfba0bef8d1392d9e8\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What steps is he taking to ensure that the proposed Treaty principles bill does not undermine the trust and goodwill between the Crown and iwi, who are currently engaged in Treaty negotiations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c52b664ec77406fa7535e34d1b6a2f2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The steps we\u2019re taking are carrying on the in-depth conversations, with goodwill, with many Treaty groups that are wanting to advance their settlements, and they are scattered all about the country. I can inform the House that we are making steady progress on those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b1264b3ce9e41339ba075393ae4cbe5\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with former Treaty of Waitangi negotiations Minister Christopher Finlayson, who has said that National is risking damaging its relationship with M\u0101ori by agreeing for the Treaty principles bill to go through a select committee process; and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226317c3953b8f42d7bb05fdb176b16629\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I always take the comments of former colleagues with great interest but also with a grain of salt, because things have sometimes moved on from where they were when they were in the House. But that former Minister has a lot to say on many issues, and it\u2019s always very entertaining to hear what he has to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b32a09bdc94a319c5ea7c2b804832d\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: When he stated, \u201Csome former MPs sometimes feel they can chip in and tell the current ones what to do\u201D, was he referring to Christopher Finlayson, Jenny Shipley, or is it just all former National MPs who are pointing out this Government\u2019s mistakes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256597847a3b14b9ab86a563e707bbe8b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, on this side of the House, we have a long tradition of robust debate within the National Party. We\u2019re not sort of all having to believe the same thing at the same moment at the same time, and I think that\u2019s what we\u2019re seeing across the country. There are a wide variety of views on these things, but the most important thing is that we conduct ourselves with good grace, listen to the other side, and have a good, honest conversation, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a119bd8c27e4419a8385e3c30385aec9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister as to why he would have regard to someone who has his shingles up acting for Treaty of Waitangi claimants and claiming to be independent on this matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a178557cac2943d08e6542cc6601769a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I wouldn\u2019t really want to comment on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc2cc8fc34a844678664ac339b427fbb\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00220933e81e6d294245919608fe150b3948\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220933e81e6d294245919608fe150b3948\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does she stand by her absolute commitment to honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi and support M\u0101ori-Crown relationships, as set out in the purpose of the Education and Training Act 2020; if so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00220436708044464f1a8450000f408fc7dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220436708044464f1a8450000f408fc7dc\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, yes. In answer to the second part of the question, we are putting student achievement at the heart of every single thing that we do. If we want to honour the Treaty, it means closing the equity gap so that decades of disparity that have pervaded our system and the disproportionate representation of tamariki M\u0101ori and rangatahi M\u0101ori in the lower quartiles of our education and achievement system is closed. It is my utmost belief that education can and should be the primary protective factor for our kids and the way that they can break through intergenerational cycles of poverty and disadvantage and live the life they want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022743be19ca0c646e4a7b698437d355f1e\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Can she explain how Te Tiriti o Waitangi has been embedded and authentically reflected in the refreshed curriculum following the outright removal and erasure of Te Tiriti o Waitangi from the curriculum framework Te M\u0101taiaho and dismissal of M\u0101ori advisers on the curriculum refresh working group?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d4b8eda6e744cfb81463b544dffa28d\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, I answered this last week, and I\u2019ll repeat myself: Te M\u0101taiaho has not been developed yet. There are only two learning areas\u2014English and maths\u2014that have been put out. What has been put out in terms of the framework which is Te M\u0101taiaho is only a shell. We are working on that framework and it will be consulted on in the same way that all of the learning areas are being consulted on. But I\u2019ll reiterate: it hasn\u2019t been written yet, so the member needs to understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adbc991728ab4f8a99afc4d118686e8d\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why has she taken the unprecedented move to mandate an unrecognised concept for science of learning as the teaching and learning approach for all, ignoring M\u0101ori ways of knowing, teaching, and learning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994cb7a519904869a629dbdb954992dd\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why we have the New Zealand Curriculum and also Te Marautanga o Aotearoa. Te Marautanga is also being refreshed, as well as the New Zealand Curriculum. The science of learning is a well-known, well-documented, and well-evidenced way to improve the outcomes of our students. If that member wants to see some evidence of that, she should go and look at the structured literacy Better Start Literacy Approach results for tamariki M\u0101ori, because they are outstanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282b5fd3f24554c3195159679a00a656b\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What will she do to ensure that M\u0101ori learners and other children from minority cultures are safe from racism and discrimination when she plans to scrap the National Education and Learning Priorities (NELPs)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223040b98f3e141f7aa8797cba49fe068\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: There are many things that boards of trustees need to take into account when it comes to keeping children safe at school. One of those things is section 127 of the Education Act. We will be developing more guidance for boards in the future, but the NELPs are something that only need to be given regard to and they are cluttering up the things that school boards need to pay attention to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267da0359f4714c859939f0c46858c7c0\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why do tamariki have to attend a h\u012Bkoi today instead of relying on an education Minister to live up to her promise to honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022964e45eb468b4fe1838ca008d93d898d\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: As I said today, all schools should be open for instruction, and the most important thing for our tamariki M\u0101ori is that they are in front of a teacher, learning, every single day that they possibly can if we\u2019re going to close the equity gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9607de051824c99a42056622cb4cc82\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022b938d74722bb4ea8849dd7b2a84c3429\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b938d74722bb4ea8849dd7b2a84c3429\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent announcements has he made about crime statistics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00222f79f2874a5344549cd10ed0bec2d7bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f79f2874a5344549cd10ed0bec2d7bd\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, I announced some of the progress that we have made as a coalition Government in our first year. I highlighted a 3\u00A0percent reduction in victimisations, an increase of over 30 percent in foot patrols, ram raids dropping by 60 percent, and aggravated robberies down by 11 percent. As I said, there is a lot more work to do to make New Zealand the safest country in the world and to restore law and order, but this coalition Government is committed to deliver on that promise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c68ce243e4fb4c41b062d7bbc8cdaacc\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: How does gang membership growth compare this year to last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225da7b26b448c443496571363fcb19677\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Gang membership recorded on the National Gang List grew 1\u00A0percent to October this year. Last year for the same period, it grew by 10 percent. Under this coalition Government, gang membership growth has slowed tenfold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a513b9ec55d4bb5a148ede28fc4b7ab\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: What does a reduction in overall victimisations mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6d8c98a981147b7b9c17072ce31df3b\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Victimisations reducing across the board by 3 percent this year is a significant early sign that things are getting better. While there are still areas of improvement, and the job is by no means done, to see a reduction in total victimisations by 3 percent is a sign that we are becoming a safer country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228140ec57305c4c4cb6e12cb8b9f7b8a4\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224885cc224db74c80a9b695d17ea5de3f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hold off until the House goes quiet. OK, now you\u2019ve probably got it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef02ea9e4b7741c7b2471ce6da41c302\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Is the job done in restoring law and order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295b618c99fda41b9a711b04fb49e8558\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: No. Despite the progress that has been made, we must remain relentlessly focused on some growth areas like retail crime. I was appointed police Minister to help restore law and order. That job is not yet done, but I\u2019m firmly committed to seeing it through with my ministerial colleagues inside our coalition Government and with our combined desire to make New Zealand the safest country in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002263b5539e00f44b729c06502bbaa52e8d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014M\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00229142ee972067447ba1a284ac119ede26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229142ee972067447ba1a284ac119ede26\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti: Does he stand by his answer to oral question No. 11 on 7 November 2024 that \u201CThere are a number of matters that ... have strengthened the M\u0101ori-Crown relationship\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00226444319d0b01432991cba3fa265e7efc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226444319d0b01432991cba3fa265e7efc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022418dd1b604aa7acb311973ee9e129\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: If he is confident that the M\u0101ori-Crown relationship has been \u201Cstrengthened\u201D by this Government, is he able to explain why there are tens of thousands of people outside on the forecourt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e91374a7ce2f4b88aa4f2d4b5153d480\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d say, on behalf of the Minister, there is a very large population of M\u0101ori\u2014900,000\u2014and I\u2019m sure there is a wide variety of views amongst them as to progress or otherwise. There\u2019ll be some who are particularly focused on constitutional matters, and they will be included amongst some of the people in front of Parliament, and that\u2019s absolutely appropriate, and we\u2019ll listen to those conversations. There\u2019ll be others who are more focused on economic opportunities and the chance for their family, their hap\u016B, their wh\u0101nau, their iwi to advance, and those will be seeing many opportunities through pieces of legislation that this Government is advancing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c63e20c0e0624e6db6d0aa1df96a6f90\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that the M\u0101ori-Crown relationship is as strong as it needs to be, and, if not, how can M\u0101ori trust that it will get better when the Minister responsible is \u201Ctoo far down the food chain\u201D to have any impact on the decision making of this Government and its anti-M\u0101ori policy agenda?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223238b623b7b541e1a193c7fdabd3ac3b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The last part of that question\u2019s not acceptable. Withdraw, apologise, and start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e64f1aa295244c391def994e036a924\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. Does he believe that the M\u0101ori-Crown relationship is as strong as it needs to be, and, if not, how can M\u0101ori trust that it will get better when the Minister responsible is \u201Ctoo far down the food chain\u201D to have any impact on the decisions of this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267ad2bd08bf1415bb818cc7a7db640b8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, to the first part of the question, on behalf of the Minister, there\u2019s always room for improvement. To the second part, it\u2019s a snide and unhelpful comment, and this is a Government that is absolutely determined to ensure that we work collaboratively with M\u0101ori on all sides of the House, recognising that when he talks about M\u0101ori as if they all think alike and have the same view on any given topic, it\u2019s completely nuts. There is a wide variety of views, and there are many, many opportunities to collaborate, and that\u2019s what this Government\u2019s focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c0eedc192f04102932e8bf96c73a2a5\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his answer in oral questions last week, \u201CIt is absolutely clear to us that the Treaty responsibilities and obligations, whether they come from a settlement arrangement or otherwise, need to be upheld and pursued by agencies across this Government and future Governments.\u201D; if so, will he direct the Associate Minister of Health to instruct Pharmac to resume considering Te Tiriti o Waitangi in its decision making?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab99f950cb774002a6998ad1d451b55c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, yes, I agree to the first comment. And exactly how that is done in any particular instance across Government, in the many multitudinous variety of issues that are dealt with across Government, it falls on the Government to be clear about what it does and doesn\u2019t mean by those comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5278d3087394e1d8a66da065e22c898\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: How can he stand in this House and speak about the strengthened M\u0101ori-Crown relationship when M\u0101ori die seven years earlier than non-M\u0101ori, M\u0101ori are overrepresented in the justice system, and are overrepresented in emergency housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6e9e784f58b4016b2cf97922d58038d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on behalf of the Minister, that\u2019s why this Government is focused on those very issues. And in terms of the justice sector, M\u0101ori are much more likely to be victims of crime, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re very focused on restoring law and order in this country\u2014to the benefit of all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori\u2014and that\u2019s what we\u2019ll continue to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b604e740e0d44718663b73b6b4bc71d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Trade\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022590fa35158534244b6186867cd5eca7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022590fa35158534244b6186867cd5eca7b\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Trade: What recent actions has the Government taken to boost New Zealand\u2019s economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002275de35ca51b4491285a03a83959bab42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275de35ca51b4491285a03a83959bab42\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister for Trade):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s been a big year for New Zealand in trade negotiations. In May, the European Union free-trade agreement (FTA) entered into force many months sooner than predicted, providing $46 million of tariffs saved for Kiwi exporters this year that they would otherwise have missed out on. In September, we concluded the New Zealand - United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, our first FTA in the Middle East, giving Kiwi exporters commercial advantage in that growing market. Last month, we concluded a trade agreement with the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC)\u2014unfinished business for successive Governments over 18\u00A0years\u2014with a particular focus on goods and services trade. And last week, at APEC in Peru, we signed the agreement on trade with sustainability with Costa Rica, Iceland, and Switzerland; particularly good for our sheep farmers and wood producers. Growing New Zealand\u2019s trade relationships is part of the Government\u2019s plan to grow the economy, lift incomes for all Kiwis, and create jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c312a649f6a442597741cdaad9fd069\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: How will these trade agreements with the Middle East benefit Kiwi exporters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229876dccd8f9143ca8f20b8a625eaaa55\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said, in September\u2014after just four months of negotiation\u2014we concluded a trade deal with the UAE delivering 98.5 percent tariff elimination on New Zealand exports on entry into force, rising to 99 percent after three years. Just three weeks ago, in Doha, we concluded a high-quality trade agreement with the Gulf Cooperation Council, having significantly reengaged with them in February of this year. The GCC agreement delivers duty-free access for 99 percent of New Zealand\u2019s exports over 10 years and, when combined with the UAE agreement, removes tariffs on 51 percent of our exports to the Gulf on day one. These two agreements secure market access in a highly competitive market for beef, lamb, dairy, manuka honey, fish, and many, many other goods, and contribute towards their ambitious goal of doubling exports by value over 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bed71f761b1455da474183a44de04de\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What additional provisions are included in the Gulf Corporation Council agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8aa2bbd199e4902a9d3e71e1f7b7bc4\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: The NZ-GCC FTA includes provisions that will make doing business easier, with preferential access for our primary sector exporters, streamlined customs procedures, reduced trade barriers, and commitments to level the playing field for Kiwi services businesses entering the market. The agreement also includes chapters and provisions on intellectual property; transparency and trade and sustainability of sustainable development; and includes commitments to international labour standards, climate, and women\u2019s economic empowerment, committing to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. New Zealand also secured our Treaty of Waitangi exception to allow us to meet Treaty obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f82a344201bf4c4c953a50b247690136\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What additional actions has the Government taken to double export value and grow trade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c14837bf2bef4ac280e001395c141554\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Two weeks ago, I led a business delegation of over 70 companies to China\u2014our most significant economic relationship\u2014to attend the China International Import Expo (CIIE) in Shanghai and then on to Guangzhou. This was the largest number of companies to attend or exhibit at the CIIE, and New Zealand\u2019s largest footprint and presence there. The companies and their products were very well received and built on New Zealand\u2019s reputation for producing high-quality, safe, environmentally friendly food and fibre. Twenty-four agreements and memorandums of understanding between New Zealand and Chinese companies were signed during the visit, worth an additional $340 million in export revenue to New Zealand over the next three years. Also, earlier this year, with the Chinese Government, we announced and committed to upgrading the services we compounded of the NZ-China FTA. As I said, a big year for trade negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c2e7daca3774b65a063dd08c338c571\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00227e4fda0fdb22403da18f0e8e08fe2017\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e4fda0fdb22403da18f0e8e08fe2017\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: E tautoko ana ia i \u0101na k\u014Drero me \u0101na mahi katoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E[Does she stand by all of her statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00224ff84851c56d46b38000ad1b5b80d9f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ff84851c56d46b38000ad1b5b80d9f1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, especially my recently announced maths pilot to lift student achievement and close the equity gap. From term 1 and 2 next year, around 2,000 year 7 and 8 students who need the most help will take part in an intensive programme to support them to progress towards the required curriculum levels in mathematics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6f8dfefe7e14f2b9c2c0ea8dc1330dd\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that specific consultation with hap\u016B and iwi on decisions affecting M\u0101ori is part of meeting obligations under Te Tiriti o Waitangi; and if so, what specific consultation did she take on removing Te Ahu o te Reo M\u0101ori and changes to section 127 of the Education and Training Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd1a17643d27446ab9f3e7331526696a\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question: in certain circumstances, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c165eb9ba1bd409c8810034f0f1ad1a5\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Does she recognise the Crown\u2019s responsibility to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, as established in section 9 of the Education and Training Act, and, if so, how is not consulting with M\u0101ori about any of the changes I mentioned in education consistent with this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e4b8b4564d541bfa53ef27622b0a90c\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question: yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b4b92e2e3f41e2ad8c647cea89c7f1\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Will she commit to releasing the full report of the consultation that she conducted on the removal of Te Tiriti o Waitangi as a primary objective under section 127 of the Education and Training Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a5e15b11a0d43ee8dc42df206149183\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: If it\u2019s required by law then yes we will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e4f79284d84bc69742a4189a598cc3\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that for \u0101konga to attend today\u2019s h\u012Bkoi is entirely consistent with section 5(4)(c) of the Education and Training Act objective \u201Cto instil, in each child and young person, an appreciation of the importance of \u2026 (iii) Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228637ef5e65654ef08367e92968ce7f09\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: There are many things in the Education and Training Act, one of which is to make sure that students are achieving to the best of their abilities, and in order to do that, they need to be in school in front of their amazing teachers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a98f59eec28419bb55c6d5e0bfe628a\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister want to deprioritise upholding Te Tiriti o Waitangi in schools, despite the recommendation of Whanaketia that \u201CThe government should partner with hap\u016B, iwi and M\u0101ori to give effect to te Tiriti\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eebe27d714eb417dab4bc399f9256133\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question: we\u2019re not deprioritising it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eb66bab22cf4092ad5adc1290a0dd9c\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Can she speak up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dea25da644c48b1842f959bfa6bda21\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. I don\u2019t think anyone was being deliberately quiet. We\u2019ll find out what\u2019s wrong with that microphone. The Minister was speaking into it and it should have picked up better than it did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002229551c6a9ba642fd946362429e82753d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee63a542d44d4210b82c4db889b96496\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee63a542d44d4210b82c4db889b96496\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0851203b7854db9b38785730c4cc58b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0851203b7854db9b38785730c4cc58b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224978bf8540f941fc8786b695a53540bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with former Prime Minister Dame Jenny Shipley: \u201CI caution New Zealand - the minute you put the Treaty into a political framework in its totality, you are inviting civil war.\u201D; if so, why is his Government asking a select committee to spend the next six months attempting to do exactly that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022995a950b600248d2b508eab140bf448a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to part of the question, no, we\u2019re not at risk of civil war in New Zealand. That\u2019s inflammatory language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f19bd89ac8514dc99889b882e7c56c0c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government asking a select committee to spend the next six months attempting to put the Treaty into a political framework in its totality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6062f817738496396b157c766b26a2e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because it\u2019s part of our coalition agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c601e0183add493eb8fb25d18085fbcd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Dame Jenny Shipley\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284784395d41944f8b1694020acea37d1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on a minute. His own side should respect the person asking the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5b6057eb7f41628f670e53e2eb9fb8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Dame Jenny Shipley \u201Cthis sort of malicious, politically motivated, fundraising-motivated attempt to politicise the Treaty in a new way\u00A0should raise people\u2019s voices, because it is not in New Zealand\u2019s immediate interest.\u201D; if so, why did he prioritise the Government\u2019s political interests over the best interests of New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d73e288232b845a0b4a0e9a763210f66\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, I don\u2019t believe it\u2019s linked to fund-raising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccb79f6193eb431a9be1b1606d475cf4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Dame Jenny Shipley, who said, when speaking about the Treaty, \u201Cthis was an agreement, a contract - and you do not rip up a contract and then just say, \u2018Well, I\u2019m happy to rewrite it on my terms, but you don\u2019t count.\u2019\u00A0\u201D; if so, does he agree that the bill currently before the Justice Committee rewrites the terms of the Treaty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aac8fa09c9be49f1ab5caecc123ce6eb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, what I expect is the Crown to uphold our obligations under the law and under the Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f6b071e1f7c47d48867a2ffe69e9201\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Christopher Finlayson, \u201Cthere is too much division and hurt in New Zealand caused by, among other things, pernicious nonsense like the Treaty Principles Bill\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022571e1bfe36a24b74b53aa67a6be05699\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That is why the National Party won\u2019t be supporting the bill beyond first reading and it won\u2019t become law, unless the Opposition support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2b2490f62c944878eacea1a3b52cd3a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with David Seymour, his future Deputy Prime Minister, that Jenny Shipley was grossly irresponsible to criticise the bill and that Christopher Finlayson is showing haughtiness and bitterness for expressing his views; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9cb8c10c9a6430db950cbf7f8d27cdb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t speak for David Seymour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227591d246bedd4791a222fe70411574a3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister does indeed speak for David Seymour. He is David Seymour\u2019s boss. He is the Prime Minister. I asked him whether he agreed with statements made by his Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215dbd6006d8448489ef021d548dbdc9e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The sharp point was \u201CDid the Prime Minister agree.\u201D The Prime Minister might want to reflect on that answer. It\u2019s a pretty easy answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227373ef6e4e404f3b9361fa2400cfe1f8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242530b2c581c4d2ca9c0194445c7d31f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with former Prime Minister John Key that \u201Cphilosophically it\u2019s bad policy. I\u2019ll tell you why I think it\u2019s bad - if you write down the principles, if you think they\u2019re going to stay like that, you\u2019re a dreamer.\u201D; if so, why did he decide that it was worth making coalition negotiations a little easier to advance such a destructive and defective policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2c758f3b8f442d4b36360c7bd117ee7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, I do. The reality is that Treaty issues are complex and 180 years of debate and discussion doesn\u2019t get written over with a stroke of a pen. That\u2019s why we don\u2019t support the bill and it won\u2019t become law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022995184aae39549a0bd16437c487c42bd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Winston Peters when he said he would not support the bill as \u201CThere are no principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D; if not, why\u00A0not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b17a5bf1edf1446b89c55e089b5d2c23\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I don\u2019t know how to make it any clearer to the member. We\u2019ve been clear from day one. We will not support the bill beyond first reading. It won\u2019t become law unless that member and his party support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bac2d542f3b741f6b65e0fc0f66a4bd6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that there are principles of the Treaty of Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ddaccda312e47cb981f4a06bcfb6620\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b4a035609e143ffb99da2517f1805e7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What does he believe the principles are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022390fc751611748389d04e0c960384d18\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Partnership, protection, and other things that have discussed over many years\u2014over 184 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b235570de4144bd6b6d0840681010fd7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why is his Government, therefore, supporting a bill that would completely rewrite those principles to remove the three Ps that he just mentioned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022544e090ba1f4488186b01b918e2e1bdb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We are not supporting the bill. As you know, we are not supporting the bill beyond first reading and it will not become law. I\u2019ve been clear from day one. That is exactly our position and it remains unchanged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd77271bba8046de825d194f7b97251e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes oral questions. We\u2019ll take just a few seconds to allow people to leave the House quietly, without conversation on the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ced23d6eeb0f47da8d9776868d80fb5b\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd1d3e03c1d3428aa0dec22ea57aa711\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00227784756b578f40089268f7580cee8a17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227784756b578f40089268f7580cee8a17\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into tomorrow morning for consideration in committee of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2) and the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, the third reading of the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, and the second reading of the Therapeutic Products Act Repeal Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e9038b50ab0d443f9bd9fe5f3fc99d13\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022abd18698148f40c5894e4a78a45c660b\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222591f0847c5446ffa93c2f696ecd11f4\u0022\u003EDefence Act 1990\u2014Extension of Authorisations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000245\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 14 November.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002258b8594857554083b9552017c0a0eedd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258b8594857554083b9552017c0a0eedd\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the motion be amended by\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003Ereplacing \u201C5 November 2024 and 11 November\u00A02024\u201D with \u201C5 November 2024, 11 November 2024, and 18 November 2024\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003Ereplacing \u201Cbases.\u201D with \u201Cbases;\u201D; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003Eadding the following bullet points after the third bullet point of the motion:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces located at Kauri Point to provide security guard services at Kauri Point;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of a member of the RNZAF who is an Intelligence Specialist trained in Electronic Warfare to undertake work to validate and update the software package for the SH-2G(I) systems;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of members of the Armed Forces comprising RNZAF Armament Technicians located at RNZAF Base Auckland and members of the NZ Army located at Waiouru Military Camp who are qualified weapons technicians to inspect, maintain and service, prepare, uplift, and deliver weapons and munitions to HMNZS Te\u00A0Kaha, and to perform any ancillary service or receive training necessary to facilitate this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002257b8dd4934994ae7b1f1ca60e2191bc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257b8dd4934994ae7b1f1ca60e2191bc8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question now is that, under section 9(8) of the Defence Act 1990, the following authorisations given on 5 November 2024, 11 November 2024, and 18 November 2024 to use the armed forces to provide public services in connection with an industrial dispute be extended to 14 February 2025 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces located at RNZAF Base Auckland to provide aircraft rescue and firefighting services;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces posted to HQNZDF, Trentham and Linton Military Camps to provide security guard services for Defence House and Pipitea House, Wellington;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces located at specified camps and bases to provide security guard services at those camps and bases;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces located at Kauri Point to provide security guard services at Kauri Point;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of a member of the RNZAF who is an Intelligence Specialist trained in Electronic Warfare to undertake work to validate and update the software package for the SH-2G(I) systems;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of members of the Armed Forces comprising RNZAF Armament Technicians located at RNZAF Base Auckland and members of the NZ Army located at Waiouru Military Camp who are qualified weapons technicians to inspect, maintain and service, prepare, uplift, and deliver weapons and munitions to HMNZS Te Kaha, and to perform any ancillary service or receive training necessary to facilitate this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaf77e0e485b43b5b6aea43ef74563f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaf77e0e485b43b5b6aea43ef74563f7\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. For the extension of authorisations debate, Government motion No. 1, that was a continued debate from the last sitting day, we were in a situation where many members of this House had taken their speaking slot and spoken to relevant amendments. This amendment fundamentally changes the original motion, and so it would be useful for all members of the House, including Government members, if we can get clarity from you that this amendment that has been moved by the Government essentially clears the slate and this is, in essence, a new debate on a new motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222821be8f35dd4cc1bd7345c4ec91194f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222821be8f35dd4cc1bd7345c4ec91194f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A member who has already spoken to a new amendment\u2014after an amendment has been moved, a member who has spoken prior to it\u2014yes, OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc842b92c0fe4d409ebea1efa4e3670c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Further to the point of order, please\u2014oh, I\u2019ll let you confer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ac31bde2ff043daa32b6d0d0a4ee8ce\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s right. You can speak to the new amendment but you can\u2019t move further amendments to extend the debate. Yes, it is, effectively, a clean slate. We\u2019re now debating the amended motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8a328265a5f46219da02ae35a977d5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8a328265a5f46219da02ae35a977d5b\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E If I may\u2014point of order\u2014just so that everybody\u2019s aware: what happens to those amendments that have already been moved on the original motion? Where do they stand? And if they are cleared by virtue of this new amendment by the Government, does that preclude other members from putting forward additional amendments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022edc7ba454d494c288bcd15d8e42b516f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edc7ba454d494c288bcd15d8e42b516f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll take advice on that. A bit of clarity around the situation, which I\u2019m pleased that you\u2019ve sought: firstly, members who have spoken in the debate can speak to the amended motion. If a member wanted to further amend the motion, it would need to be a speaker who has not spoken in the debate. All of the amendments will come up for vote in sequence as they were introduced. Does that help?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00229e5b7ad95d834b7d8e1789f96cd3049b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e5b7ad95d834b7d8e1789f96cd3049b\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, sir. Yes, it is helpful, and it is where I thought you would go, but I do have something I wish to raise with you, which is that amendments were put forward by members up to the new amendment from the Government\u2014they were put forward in good faith and it was actually quite a good exchange; the Minister was answering questions even though there was no requirement, and it was good and it was reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIf members are prevented from putting forward additional amendments to this one, if the previous amendments no longer stand, then, actually, we\u2019re, as a House, disadvantaged in this debate, because the Government\u2019s amendment fundamentally changes things, and in some instances it means that those amendments that were put forward are now irrelevant. But, if they\u2019re not cleared, and members are prevented from putting forward further amendments to make the same point in good faith, we are restricted as a House in our ability to debate this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227bc0652437e24fbab1fa0d4a9c9ed01b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bc0652437e24fbab1fa0d4a9c9ed01b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When it comes to the voting on the bill, at some point, all the amendments that have been put up so far will be dealt with in sequential order. Your question, I think, is: if someone has moved an amendment, can they re-speak to that amendment, or to the amended motion? Is that the question? I just want to be clear about what you\u2019re asking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002226a074812b7b446289c09d3a980b35a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226a074812b7b446289c09d3a980b35a0\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Essentially, sir, we have an amendment here that starts from different dates and includes fundamentally different things. Now, it is highly likely\u2014I\u2019m thinking I\u2019ve got two in mind where it is no longer relevant to this motion that is being proposed to amend. So, if a member is prevented from putting forward a further amendment that is relevant to this one, because they put one previously\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e339ed9695a540989e87da70e1ca9829\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e339ed9695a540989e87da70e1ca9829\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, you\u2019re definitely not. A member can put amendments to a new motion that\u2019s in front of the House, and that might be something that is slightly out of step with what\u2019s been said at the moment, but it would be fundamentally unfair if that were not the case, and it would simply mean that a debate could be curtailed by successive amendments being moved by the Government, and that is not a reasonable position either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022358ba81e01b34dee8e4ec121b6f2e787\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you. That\u2019s all I wanted to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e894785346834698a12ff0c378a4b382\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So has the Hon Penny Simmonds concluded\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00223f81f09f8214462c96ce0fd663de59fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f81f09f8214462c96ce0fd663de59fb\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, potentially the Minister has further clarification, but just to get clarification from you, Mr Speaker, that we are still able to put forward amendments from the original motion from last week as well as the new amendment that have been put forward by the Hon Penny Simmonds today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe074776be58497eab4a73d8478fe55f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe074776be58497eab4a73d8478fe55f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: How it\u2019s been put to me is that this is an addition to the motion that was put forward. It\u2019s hard to imagine how an addition is not an amendment. If you would be so good as to give me a couple of minutes just to get this totally sorted out, then I\u2019d be very grateful. In the meantime, if the member wants to take a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022237e089640494f41a1b31ead0083d450\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022237e089640494f41a1b31ead0083d450\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Acting Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, sir. I\u2019m happy to take a call, really by way of context, and I\u2019m grateful to members for their patience working through the procedural elements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EClearly, as we have heard prior to question time today, the real-world situation has been updated such that it\u2019s been necessary for the Minister of Defence\u2014or she\u2019s deemed it necessary\u2014to provide further authorisations. As a result, the motion that is necessary to extend the time frames must in turn be amended. Of course, it seems to me that, in the way that the House, or the committee of the House in the context of committee of the whole House stage, can put forward amendments, the will of the House will determine which are accepted and which are not. It\u2019s to be hoped that the House will be smart enough not to contradict itself in terms of those which it accepts, but it seems to me we\u2019ll find out that soon enough, particularly having already discussed and debated this question at its heart, albeit now amended and extended, for some hour and a half already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJust by way of history and background, it was on 5 November that the New Zealand Defence Force first received a notice from the Public Service Association ( PSA) of strike action that would take place the following day until 31 January. It was well canvassed last week that this would impact security guard operations at the respective bases and camps throughout the country and also those providing firefighting services, which one can appreciate is an important safety element for our service personnel and those who support them landing aircraft and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe extension that I alluded to a moment ago was in relation to the Kauri Point arms and munitions depot. That\u2019s a place at which HMNZS Te Kaha, among other naval vessels over the years have made necessary preparations for overseas deployments. That will be the case in early next year, and so it\u2019s necessary that suitable security and safety arrangements are made in that. Similarly, in relation to the aircraft firefighting services at Auckland, as already canvassed, extending those in relation to the SH-2G helicopter that will be deployed on HMNZS Te Mana as necessary, for the reasons that I set out before question time, in that notice that these be the subject of armed forces supplementing of what would otherwise be civilian employment but for the strike action notice as given by the PSA already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s, I think, enough background from me. Thank you for the opportunity to set that out. Obviously, I look forward to any further comments that members may make, noting, of course, that, it seemed to me that we had a very helpful, robust, and somewhat lengthy but nevertheless useful discussion on Thursday of last week. So, obviously I\u2019d welcome any comments additional to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b22b8f17467247c882d7f3a396b5f734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b22b8f17467247c882d7f3a396b5f734\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just so everyone\u2019s clear, a member speaking now may speak for a second time in the debate to the amendment, but if they\u2019ve previously made an amendment themselves, they can\u2019t move a further amendment. It just doesn\u2019t sit overly comfortably with me, so we\u2019re just getting a little bit of clarification on that. I hope it doesn\u2019t impinge on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249f041f301964e0f982ad25d1994024d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t impinge on me at all, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d78bf021074988a621c52eced1258b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a matter of debate, and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a good thing for me to get into debate if you want that. The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00221b621c22fd134daea27a4885a49c9d6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b621c22fd134daea27a4885a49c9d6c\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m sorry. I apologise to my friend and colleague for interrupting, but I agree with you, sir. It doesn\u2019t sit very comfortably with me, but as was alluded to previously in this House, some rules might be worthy of review. I wonder if you would be, therefore, willing to allow a member to withdraw an amendment that they made to the original motion to allow them to put forward another one. That way we don\u2019t have to rely on interpretations of the rules as they currently stand. We may need leave to be able to do that, but it would certainly make it a lot more straightforward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022de90c995a4254e6393b9780e47b08a01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de90c995a4254e6393b9780e47b08a01\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, and I think it may complicate things a little bit more than is absolutely necessary, so let me just work our way through this somewhat unique situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002227dc8abc38824874a8d3ee0f7fe28315\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227dc8abc38824874a8d3ee0f7fe28315\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I haven\u2019t actually spoken on this motion or amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022235f6da945614db0ac4fe051985c8a72\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you get to speak about it four times now, don\u2019t you? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022790e6c75d44a4cf09a3b0f42b1d72490\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019m sure I\u2019ve got a bit to say. I was just previously looking at the Defence Act, though, particularly in respect of this amendment. I was a little perplexed because this is fundamentally the use of military personnel to fulfil civilian responsibilities. If we look at the Defence Act\u2014and I do think it\u2019s really important to put it in context\u2014the ability to have defence staff, or raise an army, to use old language, and all of the powers that go with that, including the bearing of arms and the use of force, is actually a really significant constitutional matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIf you look at section 9 of the Defence Act, it seeks to encapsulate a very strong constitutional provision, and it\u2019s one that the United States of America has in their constitution. It is that army personnel, military personnel, are never to use their powers of force in a civilian sphere except in cases of utmost emergency. We saw that in the Christchurch earthquakes, where the military personnel were used to secure damaged buildings, and some of us are very well aware of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve got here is an irritant to the Government, because civilian personnel have exercised an equally important constitutional right to withdraw their labour because they\u2019ve been offered nothing in terms of keeping up with inflation. This should be a last resort, not a first resort, and it appears to me that this Government has\u2014because times are a bit tight and we know the defence budget is tight as well. They haven\u2019t got money to throw around and they\u2019ve got a few other things, including a sunken vessel, to spend their money on at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m looking at Kauri Point, and we have got military personnel offering security guard services. This is not something which needs any kind of specialist expertise. If it\u2019s a security guard, there are plenty of trained and competent security guards out there. This is a Government that likes using the private sector. The first resort should be to go out and use contractors, because this is, essentially, standing at the front gate to make sure people who come in have ID, and yet they\u2019re going to use military personnel to do this role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI have a real concern that this is actually stepping over a line and saying that we\u2019re going to use military personnel for civilian roles, and this Government is pushing the boundaries on a lot of these. We\u2019ll come to the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill later today, but this is another example where there hasn\u2019t really been a respect for the constitutional line\u2014the rights line that says we do not have military personnel doing civilian jobs, because military personnel have a particular constitutional place for defence and security, and not for wandering our streets or doing jobs that civilian staff could do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe Acting Minister of Defence may want to make some explanation about the other part of this amendment, which is the use of a member of the Royal New Zealand Air Force who is an intelligence specialist trained in electronic warfare to undertake work to validate and update the software package for the SH2G(I) systems. I\u2019ve got to be honest that that\u2019s not very meaningful, and it\u2019s simply\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e44ca7b8c691411985dde74c8caa5f17\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Well, do your research. Of course it\u2019s meaningful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226515ddd8a6184666bbcb0ccfe56e9e9e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you know, I\u2019m not sure what an SH2G(I) system is and why we can\u2019t use a contractor for that. The fact of the matter is we\u2019ve come here, we\u2019re looking to use military personnel for civilian tasks, and it behoves the Government, if they\u2019re going to do that, to be very clear about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de6ce188230f45638528131165d46d10\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder if I might\u2014I don\u2019t want to interrupt the member, but I don\u2019t want to see him disadvantaged by what I\u2019m about to say, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bf39a98ed134cb5a766ae2dcf528e9f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db78c2ca129402e95081d72e4441822\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I recognise he\u2019s got more time, I just thought I perhaps would ask the House to indulge me at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFirstly, the matters that were raised by the Hon Kieran McAnulty are somewhat unique, a little bit different, and haven\u2019t been struck before, and I think that\u2019s why I was\u00A0also somewhat uncomfortable about where the most strict interpretation of the Standing Orders could have taken us\u2014and the consequences of that would mean that the\u00A0Standing Orders provided an option for a Government to curtail a debate by simply constantly amending it, and that\u2019s not at all parliamentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to make it clear that this is not a ruling\u2014I\u2019m going to suggest that we progress today, and the Chair, whoever is sitting here, will follow these procedures\u2014but the matter does need to be sent to the Standing Orders Committee as suggested so that it is more clearly set out. Standing Order 129 prevents a member who\u2019s already spoken from moving an amendment. Ordinarily, that would prevent a member who\u2019s already spoken from moving an amendment to an amendment, and that\u2019s the quandary that we\u2019ve got today because the\u00A0Government has amended their original motion. This is sounding like some kind of Monty Python skit, but, as I\u2019ve said, this doesn\u2019t sit well or comfortably with me at all. This context that I\u2019m now going to suggest is for this particular debate only, while the matter is referred to the Standing Orders Committee. In that context, it means that the Chair will be prepared to accept amendments to amendments from members who\u2019ve already spoken or moved amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bc62a3f552147eead60be691dc99dfc\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, I appreciate your acknowledgment there and your willingness to allow this debate to be full. Presumably, when you indicate that something should be reviewed by the Standing Orders Committee, there is a team within the Clerk\u2019s Office, or wherever, that indicate that and bring that to the next meeting. So, in the spirit of trying to be helpful to that, I wonder if that team may also be able to identify and differentiate between an amendment made by the Opposition or an amendment made by the Government, because it is a Government amendment that has caused this. If it were amendments from Opposition members, we wouldn\u2019t be in this situation, and perhaps that might be useful for our discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b772673cfd84bc5981279ff2aae71cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. Look, I\u2019ll take that up with the chairman of the Standing Orders Committee\u2014myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aafa0e9ff9d4460b4af34bf2e1a68be\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e43df2882e8348c8a89c3d2352e9958a\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a good guy, so he\u2019ll be right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222221f3edc2d74f9b9363661895a2d8f3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right\u2014I\u2019m sure he\u2019s going to find something grand for you. Point of order, the honourable\u2014sorry, Tim Costley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9efcca5fa02429ba8c0a92a21d3b2a4\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Long way off. Just for clarity, sir, when you say members can make amendments to amendments, is that specifically just to the amendment moved by the Government, or are you opening the door for anyone to move amendments on the ones we received last\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e30805cd96c461abb9de6583d6dcbc7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The motion that we\u2019re now debating is the amended motion from the Government, so it\u2019s amendments to that amendment. I was using the plural simply to indicate how the situation could exist if we were in a situation like this again\u2014and I hope we aren\u2019t, because good Government organisation is something that\u2019s pretty important in a democracy. I call on the Hon Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b95a80a1c6c042e08abc2435429064d3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker..\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbedecce49dc41a5b4e911816ece9eed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll tell you what: we\u2019ll start you back to five minutes so you\u2019ve got a reasonable go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022508ed19356354b88a98047962b1e5b37\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Now, I was asking the Minister to clarify the second bullet point on the amendment that was tabled today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other question I would have, and it relates to the wider issue, is whether the Government has taken advice from Crown Law, and whether they\u2019d be happy to share it with the House\u2014I think it\u2019s quite important. I\u2019m not familiar with the detail, but there is a very strong convention that armed forces are not used in domestic situations. The Act as it stands essentially gives a procedure for that to occur but not a threshold, but there clearly is a conventional threshold, if not a legal threshold. I would hope that the Government went and took advice about where that threshold was and whether it was met here. It would give some comfort to this House, I think, if we could say that the Crown\u2019s legal adviser, the Attorney-General, through the Solicitor-General, has actually examined this question and said, \u201CIn all of the circumstances, this is an appropriate case to use the extraordinary power to have military personnel discharging civilian tasks.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of my concerns is the speed at which this appears to have occurred. Without wanting to point the finger too much, the fact that there\u2019s an amendment to the motion suggests that they had an \u201CAha!\u201D moment over the weekend and thought, \u201COops, that doesn\u2019t go quite far enough.\u201D I\u2019m asking whether there is legal advice about the use of this power, not only in respect of the original motion but also the amendment to the motion. I think that\u2019s quite important. The Minister could say, \u201CWell, we did get legal advice but it\u2019s privileged.\u201D, but privilege belongs to the Government, and it\u2019s entirely in their hands to waive it. I do think it would be really useful. Even if the advice was \u201CWe don\u2019t think it quite meets the threshold.\u201D, the Government can let us know that and justify why, in the face of that, it has still chosen to go down this road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe real concern is that the Ministry of Defence and defence forces are in a financial spot\u2014they haven\u2019t got a budget allocation, they haven\u2019t got an estimate for pay rises, they haven\u2019t got an estimate to fix what\u2019s going on on the north coast of Samoa. They\u2019ve got to do what some departments would do as a matter of course, which is rejig and allocate resources within the department, but they face this significant burden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt is really concerning to me that there are roles here which don\u2019t actually\u2014I\u2019m not saying they don\u2019t need to be done; I accept that you\u2019ve got to have a secure military base. But they could be done by non-military personnel. Now, we don\u2019t like strike breakers, but the fact of the matter is it\u2019s probably the lesser of two evils to go and get a private security guard company to sit on the gates of the Devonport Naval Base than to get military personnel to do civilian tasks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think people quite understand the significance of having military doing civilian tasks. If it was interchangeable, if military could do anything, if they could be out the front gate of Parliament today, we would have a military State. We would have a State where the power of the State was expressed against its own citizens through the military. We don\u2019t have a military State; we have a democratic State which has a police force which has a quite different mandate and a quite different set of principles and a quite different values system. I think it\u2019s important that we hear why we are using military personnel for those tasks, whether there was legal advice that was taken, and also I would be interested in a little more explanation around some of the technical language that\u2019s used in this amendment motion. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022750ef59da0ba491ca6a03e2a8cb968b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022750ef59da0ba491ca6a03e2a8cb968b7\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s good to have the opportunity to speak on the Government\u2019s amendment. I\u2019d like to thank the Speaker currently in the Chair, and the one that was in the Chair previously for being so clear about the bounds of this debate. I will try and attempt to make sure that my comments are confined to what has been agreed, but I\u2019m sure Madam Speaker will tell me if I stray outside what has been agreed, because it\u2019s not my intention to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe key aspect of the amendment that has been moved today is really the addition of a third date of notices. Previously when we were debating this extension motion, we were looking at 5\u00A0November and 11 November, and now we have 18 November also added into that as something that needs to be extended, and reading it with the original motion that would be until 14 February 2025. We did traverse that date at some length in the previous debate on this motion before it was amended, and there was an explanation as to why that date was picked by the Minister\u2014and we value the Minister\u2019s feedback and engagement on this particular topic\u2014but what I\u2019m concerned about is the fact that, when we had originally spoken about this process of using the defence force, of using our people who are trained and meant to be deployed defending our country to cover our civilian workforce, we mentioned a number of times how unusual the situation was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI just want to reflect on how even more unusual the situation has become with the tabling of this extensive additional amendment today. The reason that that\u2019s unusual is because of not only the use of defence force staff in civilian roles but because of the terms of the Defence Act and because of the terms of section 9. Section 9 makes it very, very clear that this should be something which only happens in rare circumstances. The reason that that is so clear within that section is the emphasis put on reporting not only the use of defence force staff to cover civilian workers taking industrial action but the fact it, firstly, must be reported to the House, and secondly, that any extension to that must also be notified to the House within 14 days. That is a very, very high bar that the drafters of that previous legislation under a previous Parliament put towards allowing what the Government is intending to do to be put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, last week when we debated the original motion, we said that we had some concerns around the length of the extension. Now that has been amended, and it has covered a totally different strike notice on 18 November, that concern remains. An additional concern I have, and a question that I would put forward if the Minister did choose to take a call and answer\u2014and he\u2019s been very good at engaging in this debate so far\u2014is: was this the original intent of the Government, to amend the motion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cf2ca1d7e52428da33cf8bc0c504284\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just say to the member that the Minister has actually spoken on this debate. To clarify what Mr Speaker said before, unless there\u2019s an amendment, people cannot speak further. If there are further amendments, people can speak further. It\u2019s my understanding that the Minister has already spoken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a0c8bf474ec48469556e8f875a6162c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. In the previous session where we had debated the original motion, I sought\u2014I believe it was yours actually, I believe you were in the Chair; if it wasn\u2019t you, another presiding officer none the less\u2014clarity that if there was a pertinent question posed for the understanding of the House that the Minister would be able to respond to that, and we did, and it was a really good engagement. It was back and forth. We acknowledged at the time that it wasn\u2019t the usual approach, but we recognised during the committee of the whole House stage that that worked, and it was allowed. Now it seems that that\u2019s no longer the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223be3b6af88ad4e35b80fc62b55376461\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard the point of order, and if the member did in fact seek that clarity\u2014given that we\u2019re in a situation, as previously spoken of this afternoon, that\u2019s a bit unusual\u2014it would be helpful, in my view, in this one-off situation, for the Minister to be able to answer questions. I\u2019ll take the member\u2019s word that we did have a point of order, and if the Minister does wish to answer those, we\u2019ll just seek leave for that to be able to happen. I\u2019m comfortable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ae1ef95d1f945a6a727c821b7a0a29e\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that, given it was already the practice in place in the original motion, I don\u2019t believe that the Government amendment changes that. I will make a couple of points for clarity. We recognised at the time that the Minister was under no obligation at all to answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a93bfb76e1934e8e97b9879f395f2fab\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b954ef489fd4612a601aa375da3e41c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014only if he, or any Minister on his behalf\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b63f844a65f44ef4bf4446b3beadd653\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Wished to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ece2b4d9af9a49e88967fb575e4a33ef\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014wished to. And it wasn\u2019t carte blanche permission for members to treat it like a committee of the whole House stage and just fire questions at the Minister. But there are amendments on the Table that were put there in good faith. This is an extraordinary and rare motion and debate, and we felt that that would be a useful approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a26c9e2ed843ae82b8cf56dd61c2cf\u0022\u003EHon Chris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Madam Speaker. Thank you. In the spirit of helpfulness, I wonder if I can suggest to the House that if I were to take one call in reply to all the questions that may be posed in the meantime, including in relation to today\u2019s amendment, then that might maximise the helpfulness and clarity as to the substance without engaging unnecessarily in debates beyond that which would be expected for what is a reasonably narrow question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269843d7a516840b7be17f5528efbe490\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? No, there\u2019s not. Thank you. Camilla Belich, please carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204dcd4d8966a4405bcc954fb9602d18e\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question to the Minister, really, was: if the motion that was on the Table had passed last sitting day, would he have put forward an amendment motion as another primary motion for debate in this House, rather than making that an amendment to the existing motion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI just think that would help in terms of how we are to move forward with this, because it is very much my view, on reading the legislation, that the purpose of it is really to make sure that\u2014this is obviously an extraordinary debate, but the situation that the Government is engaging in through the use of these staff is also extraordinary, and the legislation puts a\u00A0high standard on that through its very regular reporting requirements under section 9. My\u00A0question\u2014and I did see a few nods, and I think it\u2019d be good to have on the record a response to that question\u2014is: would it have been another primary motion? And if it was another primary motion, is it indeed the intention if other further extensions or amendments are required for them to be put as primary motions rather than amendments? I think that would be helpful in terms of having a clearer understanding of how the Government intends to go forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EHowever, even if it was the intention of the Minister to put forward another primary motion, which would make the debate slightly less complex than it already is, I still feel that the spirit of the Defence Act and its reporting requirements under section 9 are not really being adhered to with these very long extensions of motions. We\u2019re seeing the orders on 5 November, 11 November, and now 18\u00A0November, with this amendment extended through until 14 February, which does include the Christmas period but does include a number of sitting weeks where the Minister could decide to report to the House on what was going on, making sure that, in fact, the eyes of the House were focused on the good-faith negotiations, which the Minister said in his motion today is being undertaken, and we would have a debate more in line with the spirit of section 9 of the Defence Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWith that in mind, and bearing in mind the discussions that we had previously, I did have a motion on the Table which I had spoken to, and, now, being allowed to amend that motion, I do feel that it would be better rather than to align the end of these notices with the end of the strike, which I thought was appropriate, because I didn\u2019t think it was appropriate and I still don\u2019t think it\u2019s appropriate for the extension to go beyond the dates of the strike notice. The Minister did respond to that. It was a reasonable response. However, I remain unconvinced that that is appropriate given the circumstances and the narrowness of the scope of section 9 of the Defence Act to allow this type of motion by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI feel that I would be minded to amend my amendment, following the amendment by the Government, to change what I originally had, That 31 January 2025\u2014which aligned with the end of the strike notice\u2014be amended to 3 December 2025. That is to allow two weeks to go past before the Government would then have to come back to the House in line with the legislation and report on either needing a new motion to extend the particular motions or a primary motion. And it would have the scrutiny of this House again. I think that that is appropriate, given that we\u2019ve seen a motion, an amendment motion, and that they\u2019re covering all sorts of different people doing all sorts of different work, requiring our defence force to go and cover that civilian work and allowing a very, very long period of time before there is accountability back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThat is why I think it is very reasonable to align this amendment with the two-week period, which was not my original intention, but I think, having seen what\u2019s occurred here, that that is important. This is important for a number of reasons in terms of\u2014and I know that we\u2019ve spoken, on this side, of the belief that the Labour Party has always had in the right for people to take industrial action. Obviously, there are sectors of society which are excluded from that when they do essential services, and this isn\u2019t one of those particular circumstances, because we are talking about a civilian workforce. However, I don\u2019t disagree with the fact that there are health and safety concerns and serious security concerns, and I think it\u2019s prudent that the Government is mindful of that and that they that they are looking at that in relation to the strike action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere is another concern which is weighing on my mind, and that is the ability of our defence force, now they\u2019re engaged in this work, to be able to undertake the primary purpose of their work and to be able to do that work when they are doing this activity. My second substantive question to the Minister, really, is the assurances that he can give that the defence force, in terms of its role, being required to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d07c40860d1c43b791825afc96f67d93\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you guys have no idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1804da89f8c41e4b58afe4052ae30c2\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it is a valid question, and I think it should be\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f9f4748776f4645af934145ea8f5165\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can we let the member ask the question, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a98441fe959842ed93c2270f706bcdc7\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Please, if the Minister is minded to, give the House a reassurance that the capability of our defence forces, who do have very important jobs to do, will not be undermined by having to fulfil civilian roles. I think that is a reasonable question, and I think it is reasonable for the Minister to turn his mind to it and for the Government to turn their mind to it and to be able to reassure the House that the actions that they\u2019re taking today do not undermine the security interests of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00223d5329a20e234cc993462d60a70a41e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d5329a20e234cc993462d60a70a41e2\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Now, those that have been following this debate will know that there were many amendments put forward to the Government to consider that were done in good faith. My friend and colleague Camilla Belich has spoken to hers, and I know Tangi Utikere had a very well-worded and considered one, but all that\u2019s changed now, not just because the rulings that the presiding officer has provided identified that this is actually an unusual situation, almost unique in that an amendment made by the Government has changed the game and, essentially, cleared the slate on a debate which was almost done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think for a second that the Government intended to do this on Thursday last week. I reckon they entered into that in good faith. In fact, if I think back, the Minister was getting quite frustrated and prickly at the length of time that the debate was taking, so that suggests to me that he wanted it done, and that he had no genuine intention, albeit acting on the Minister\u2019s behalf, to put forward this amendment today. I believe that, but the fact that it\u2019s happened demonstrates that this is an unusual situation. Even if the House had voted in favour or in support of the motion on Thursday, we\u2019d be here again, probably tomorrow, debating another extension, because there was another ministerial statement today. If the debate had finished on Thursday, then we would have to go through that again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that surely this demonstrates that this is an evolving situation\u2014that the impact of this industrial action isn\u2019t actually fully understood by all\u2014and yet the Minister is asking us to support a motion that not only extends the original motion but now adds to it, amends it, and still wants us to support it to go all the way out to 14 February. Now, the Minister has available to them, in the Defence Act, a period of 14 days, and that\u2019s quite ironic because 14 days from the original motion is today. The period of time that the Minister had available to her in legislation, without the requirement of coming to the House for support for an extension, is today. Here we are not only debating an extension motion but an amendment to the original motion. Now, why do I say all this\u2014is the question I get from that look. It\u2019s because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba0c146373240949819ee190bc52733\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, just listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022655bf728902840c084d182e60dae8c77\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s just you resting? Fair enough. I\u2019ve got one of those as well\u2014I\u2019ve got one of those as well\u2014don\u2019t you worry about that! But, Madam Speaker, the point of this is that we could avoid all this simply by amending the end date of this extension to a period that is practical\u2014there or thereabouts\u2014around what the Defence Act already gives the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhen we debated this on Thursday, we said to the Minister, \u201CLook, things change, and the context in which this extension motion would be considered may well develop, and the way that we, as a House, might approach the motion in two weeks\u2019 time might be different to how we do it today.\u201D Well, gee whiz, it\u2019s only been a matter of days and things have changed. If the House approves this, what is to stop the Minister having to come back? Genuine question. \u201CNothing\u201D, actually, is the answer, because it\u2019s already been proven by virtue of this amendment. Wouldn\u2019t it be better for the House\u2014because we\u2019ve already identified this bizarre anomaly that the Standing Orders Committee is going to have to have a look at. If we go about it the way we\u2019ve gone about it today\u2014that it\u2019s unusual and we\u2019ve had to find a workaround around the current Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 rulings\u2014more to the point is that the Government has identified that their original motion was not sufficient, that it did not cover enough ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ELeaving aside the debating points\u2014I haven\u2019t even touched on the stuff that we touched on last week; this is all new stuff and relevant to the amendment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb30d930a021493a80496753bd6c5db7\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ff0bf55cb34a4fbeafe3f97009cc66\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister may cackle, although that\u2019s all he\u2019s done. [Interruption] Oh, it wasn\u2019t the Minister? I do apologise. It was his very loud and irritating friend next to him. That\u2019s all that member has done throughout this entire debate. He hasn\u2019t actually made a call, hasn\u2019t actually tried to contribute to the motion and the debate on the motion and the understanding of the House, and this is a man with a military background instead sitting there arrogantly and criticising those who are trying to get it right. Here is another reason why we need to get it right: this is not a minor amendment. There are three bullet points to the original motion\u2014the original motion was three bullet points\u2014so it\u2019s twice as long, it\u2019s twice as inclusive, it actually covers areas that they hadn\u2019t envisaged, and yet they want us to agree to an extension all the way to 14 February.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, my original amendment was that \u201C14 February 2025\u201D be replaced by \u201C17 December 2024\u201D. That\u2019s the last sitting week of this year. I tried to be practical and think, \u201CRight, that makes sense. We can reassess. The Government can put forward an alternative justification for an extension. And we would consider that as a House with the summer break in mind.\u201D I think this changes this situation, and I would like to amend that amendment. I\u2019m not going to put a new one in, but I\u2019ll just amend it and bring it forward a week\u2014to the 10th. Why do I propose the 10th? Well, for practical reasons. If we said, \u201CWhy don\u2019t we just leave it for the 14 days that are available to the Minister?\u201D, that would fall within scrutiny week. We wouldn\u2019t actually be sitting as a House. If the Minister wanted to debate an extension motion, we couldn\u2019t and we\u2019d have to wait a week, and there would be a gap and something might happen in that period where the defence force doesn\u2019t have the appropriate permission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAs I understand it, the provisions that would be available to the Minister to act when the House is risen\u2014i.e., go to the Governor-General\u2014wouldn\u2019t actually be available to them, because the House was able to sit, just not sitting that week. It would be counterproductive, and I would really encourage the Minister to see this for what it is, as a genuine, good-faith proposal. Let\u2019s do this extension motion to 10 December. It is possible, while I can\u2019t speak with authority\u2014I\u2019m not the appropriate spokesperson\u2014that we would consider supporting this. It\u2019s possible. We\u2019d know, then, that at least the Government will come back to the House and explain why a further extension would be needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1fbaf2b885b44cfad0f15ca197af2e4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So is the member planning to table that as\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ef0129fccc745d2803d1faec343afd2\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014yes, I am.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4154f60471d4f849c1927bb96c6f745\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I just wanted to clarify that with all members. If there are amendments, and I will note that Camilla Belich has also tabled her amendment to her amendment. If members could just be really clear, it helps the clerk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bc962b469d841a29b20b1a180f3dc28\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s right, and I do appreciate that, Madam Speaker, because this isn\u2019t straightforward. It\u2019s got every possibility that things might fall over and there\u2019d be further complications, and that wouldn\u2019t be the fault of the Clerk\u2019s team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c0bc67672ba44808353eb80e25af26b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9a6ba46d7344314ba3ae1f3a7e13bab\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got a copy of my amendment here. I\u2019m going to cross out \u201C17\u201D and put \u201C10\u201D. That\u2019s all I\u2019m going to do, and I\u2019ll bring it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b5b960938204802a08aab838112ad4c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Great. Thank you. If other members, at any point during their speeches, wish to move an amendment to their amendment, can you, please, just let us know at the start so the clerks can be working it through. It\u2019s not a criticism of this member, because this is a moving debate, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022092c22e79083424ea4097d44d6713fbc\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was about to take that personally, so thank you for that clarification!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b34724debd943468207d8bd9f1d18a8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not intended personally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240ef31eab39a495a81d65b8fd2002a22\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I will be crossing out \u201C17\u201D and putting \u201C10\u201D, and I really hope they consider that, because it is, essentially, three weeks from today. It goes beyond scrutiny week. It means that there are another two sitting weeks left in this calendar year. It doesn\u2019t interfere with the final week, which is actually filled up with a lot of ceremonial debates and all those sorts of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe know, as I mentioned last week, that because of an error of the Deputy Leader of the House at the Business Committee, Parliament is going to knock off on the 18th, so actually it\u2019s only two days that week. In reality, it\u2019s actually better if it\u2019s the 10th anyway, because we\u2019ve got all week. They can look at getting it done. I don\u2019t believe that the original motion would expire as long as it was done by the end of the day. If just like today it was the first item after question time, we would have plenty of time to ask the questions and deal with the matters. There\u2019s no possibility in reality that, if it was done after question time on the 10th, it was going to drag out until the end of the sitting day. That\u2019s just not possible. We know that we would have a conclusion\u2014yes or no, or whatever\u2014on that day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThat is my amendment to the Government\u2019s amendment, and it takes into consideration a pretty fundamental change to the original motion and the fact that it includes new material that wasn\u2019t envisaged in the original debate, and it acknowledges that the Government themselves didn\u2019t even envisage this. How can they realistically expect the House to give them carte blanche until the 14th, with what has proven to be a realistic prospect that we\u2019re going to have to come back regardless? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022da057ee4195c4505984d4cfb227a3e04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da057ee4195c4505984d4cfb227a3e04\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215723a56d0df4e5cb16e8ec3f4ebf0b0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: I was going to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d66d3325e0c433e81d0bb4f5c35bd53\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He tried.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ad07c62cf1f46348173493d89bbd4e2\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that member is eager to take a call, which the member can do after this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThank you, Madam Speaker. Per Madam Speaker\u2019s instruction before, I would first like to move, That the motion be amended to delete the words \u201CAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces posted to HQNZDF, Trentham and Linton Military Camps to provide security guard services for Defence House and Pipitea House, Wellington\u201D. That particular amendment has been with the Clerk already, but I have an extra copy should Madam Speaker require it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the reason I have this particular amendment was briefly touched upon by one of the previous speakers, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb. Although I don\u2019t 100\u00A0percent agree with the member on other elements that the member has raised, in this particular case, when we are looking at this motion\u2014including today\u2019s amendment\u2014there are now essentially six parts to it and it\u2019s very much, in some ways, playing spot the difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the things that really stood out to me in the amendment that I am moving to be deleted is the fact that the other parts of this particular motion all potentially have a level of security clearance that is required that may not be appropriate for a contractor. This is, I guess, where the point of difference that I have with the Hon Duncan Webb is, but looking at the motion that was moved today by the Hon Chris Penk, I believe that the upgrading of the software package with SH-2G(I) system potentially does require a level of security clearance that a contractor may not have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhen it\u2019s around providing security guard services for Defence House and for Pipitea House, that is not something that I believe meets the threshold of why section 9(2) of the Defence Act 1990 should be triggered. For all intents and purposes, to provide security guard services for these two particular areas can very much be conducted by a contractor. However, if the Minister is able to clarify to say that the security guard services go beyond the level of security guard services that we see in other cases, where they\u2019re simply standing in front of the building to provide additional support or to vet the personnel who go into it, then that does need to be specified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThat brings me to my second point, which is around the fact that section 9(2) of the Defence Act is very specific, where it does say that the authority should specify the part or parts of the armed forces that may be used and the public service or public services that may be provided. I think in the original motion, that was not made explicitly clear\u2014whether the security guard services go beyond what is the standard understanding of security guard services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhat is also concerning in terms of the original three points that were mentioned as part of the original motion, compared to the amendment that was done today and amendments to the amendment that was done today, is the specificity of the personnel. In section 9(2) of the Defence Act, it does say that that the Minister or the authority \u201Cshall specify the part or parts of the Armed Forces\u201D. In today\u2019s amendment, we do see that that level of specificity is reached where it talks about a member of the RNZAF, it talks about members of the armed forces comprising of RNZAF armament technicians, and it talks about other\u2014actually it doesn\u2019t; one of them doesn\u2019t. It does name specific teams or specific groups within that, but I don\u2019t know if by just saying \u201Cappropriately trained members of the armed forces\u201D without mentioning explicitly the teams or groups, as some of the sections we see today in the amendments, meets the requirement of specificity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the third part I would like to mention is around the differences in terms of some of the services that are going to be provided. For some of these services, we do see providing airport rescue and firefighter services, security guard services for camps, even providing qualified technicians to inspect, maintain and service, prepare, uplift, and deliver weapons and munitions\u2014those kinds of aspects are things that are part of the day-to-day operations or day-to-day anticipation of what could have happened. But some of the things over here, particularly in terms of the software package update of the SH-2G(I) system\u2014is that something that must be conducted reasonably immediately? The statement that the Minister said didn\u2019t specify. It does specify upcoming deployment, but it doesn\u2019t specify when we say \u201Cupcoming\u201D, whether that is absolutely mandatory for this to be triggered as opposed to this can actually be deferred to when the strike action is lifted or after 14 February.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second-to-last point that I will mention is around some of the statements that were done today. I think one of the previous speakers, the Hon Kieran McAnulty, has already touched on this as well. I want to specifically focus on the statement that was used by the Minister today and some of the tenses that were used, where the Minister of Defence has already given the authority. As we have heard from the previous speaker, the Hon Kieran McAnulty, there is a general concern that the extension of that authority beyond 14 days under section 9(8) of the Defence Act must first be passed by the House. Considering some of the original items in the original motion, part of it may have already lapsed as of today. Where does that put those sorts of motions or those sorts of authorities in this limbo period where they would be considered void unless it has been passed by the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy final point is also around the fact that it would be good to get the Minister or a delegate of the Minister\u2014in this case, it looks like it\u2019s the Hon Chris Penk\u2014to sort\u00A0of\u00A0clarify. We\u2019re seeing amendments today with some very specific new items or new elements have been brought to the House that were not anticipated or were not made aware to the House last week. What does that mean, going forward; that within the next period of time there would be more things coming up, and particularly during the Christmas and New Year period when\u00A0the House isn\u2019t sitting? It would be good to get the Minister\u2019s clarification to know if this is an exhaustive list that we\u2019re seeing now or if there will be more coming up, in which case: what approach or what consideration would be taken if that was during the Christmas and new year period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThank you for that, Madam Speaker. Just, again, a reminder to the House that I do have an amendment that I have on the Table here essentially to remove the part that talks about the security guard services for the Defence House and Pipitea House Wellington. For that particular one, it is different from the rest of the authority that has been provided, and I genuinely do believe\u2014and I would be keen to hear from other speakers in this House as to whether that should be a service that can be provided by a contractor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228dac54775ebf4fb99f239c069fa4c618\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dac54775ebf4fb99f239c069fa4c618\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. At this point, we have three extra amendments and I\u2019m just going to invite\u2014I believe Minister Chris Penk is going to take a call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022174334e65dd440abac620ef55a06686a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022174334e65dd440abac620ef55a06686a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Acting Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, my intention was to seek a call, but in the spirit of the discussion earlier, which is that I would take one that would wrap up all outstanding questions so that we then don\u2019t sort of go back and forth and I keep popping up like a jack-in-the-box. If you\u2019re minded to take on other calls, then I\u2019ll resume my seat for now, but I\u2019ll try and judge as best I can from your body language when you\u2019ve had enough of other contributions such that I should then respond at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002287b5e56ba7d64b2dbfff9b03b98e451b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287b5e56ba7d64b2dbfff9b03b98e451b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I think it might be helpful, if there are some things that you are of a mind to answer now, because otherwise I think the questions are probably going to get a little repetitive from here on in. It\u2019s probably my judgment that maybe take a call now and then we\u2019ll see if anybody\u2019s got any new information. I know there\u2019s one more call coming from over here, at least. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002262376aa4a0964d44b46e19e6adc952dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262376aa4a0964d44b46e19e6adc952dd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Acting Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thanks to colleagues for a very full discussion of these issues. In the order that they\u2019ve been presented to the House from colleagues, in response to the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, he rightly points out that with legal advice having been provided, it\u2019s within the Government\u2019s power\u00A0to waive that privilege. We do not intend to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESecond, in relation to Camilla Belich\u2019s points, it seems to me inevitable that a new motion would have been required if the motion that had previously been made or the original motion, as we now know it, had passed last week. Then it would have been necessary to pass a new motion. Her suggestion of an amended date, 3 December\u2014in fact, she said 2025, but I think that perhaps it was misspoken, with 2024 probably being her intention. We wouldn\u2019t support such an amendment in either case. We think that the calibration of the dates that we\u2019ve provided so far is the right one, which is to say it\u2019s the full length of the strike notice plus two weeks in order for transitional arrangements to be made as to personnel turning up for duty and so forth. One cannot have a gap in these critical staffing - type arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFor that reason also, we don\u2019t contemplate, or will not support, suggestions that are made for other dates within that period. For example, the Hon Kieran McAnulty, I think, is suggesting what he describes as a practical date of 10 December. That could be argued to be placing undue pressure on the negotiating process, which should be conducted in good faith, as required, up to as late as 31 January of next year. If we were to have a date of 10 December, then adding a couple of weeks in order for transitional arrangements to be made, we would reach Boxing, excuse me, Christmas Eve\u2014I\u2019m getting ahead of myself\u2014and I don\u2019t think that would be a very wise time to be trying to relitigate or make different arrangements for obvious reasons. I certainly don\u2019t intend to be here at that time, Madam Speaker, and I presume you don\u2019t, and I\u2019m even more sure that the Hon Kieran McAnulty will be long gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for the capability of the replacement personnel, if we can call them that, in fact, they routinely conduct these kinds of operations or this kind of work, in any case. In fact, reasonable minds can differ, and it\u2019s not a subject for debate today, but it might be the case that uniformed personnel might be called upon to take back under their own steam these very functions that they used to carry out as a matter of course and more recently have been taken on by civilian colleagues, who I hasten to add, are valued and respected. But nevertheless, there is already a combination of civilian and uniformed personnel undertaking those tasks, not only historically but even into the present day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for the fact that we have an evolving situation, as Kieran McAnulty points out, yes, that\u2019s correct, but we can\u2019t know what the future will hold, and that\u2019s not a reason not to make necessary arrangements in accordance with the law in the present day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen, finally, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan points out that security services are within the remit both of the original motion and confirmed today in our discussion. I think it would be necessary to have personnel who are appropriately qualified, skilled, and experienced. Obviously, there are others who provide security services within this country, but I would expect, in most cases, they wouldn\u2019t have the appropriate security clearance, they wouldn\u2019t know the protocol and the military whakapapa and tikanga in terms of allowing personnel on to base with all the bells and whistles\u2014almost literally bells and whistles, in some cases,\u00A0but very specific qualifications not only for those security roles to be carried out but also those who would carry out the very bespoke work on military helicopters, for example, with weapons systems that we hope civilian helicopters don\u2019t have in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen, finally, I thought it was a very fair question and a good question as to whether the fact of an upcoming deployment would be required to reach a threshold to trigger this kind of measure. It seems to me that that wouldn\u2019t be the case, necessarily. Air force and navy\u2014and, actually, all of our defence forces, for that matter\u2014undertake important work around the clock, whether on a recognised deployment as such, and that wouldn\u2019t be necessary to reach that threshold. As it happens, that\u2019s a hypothetical question in the context of what we face today, which is, of course, that among other things, there is an upcoming deployment of HMNZS Te Kaha with an embarked flight, I think we can infer, and for that reason, among others, it\u2019s necessary to pass this motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFinally, in what I hope and expect will be my last contribution and perhaps one of the last contributions of the debate as a whole, I do want to re-emphasise the big picture here, which is that we have a defence force that performs valuable work in service of this nation. They will do it over the Christmas and new year period. They need to be supported to do that. They need to be allowed to conduct their work in a safe and secure way. That\u2019s important for those workers. It\u2019s important for our nation. The arrangements are having to be made in a less than an ideal world in which we live, whereby external factors have forced the hands of defence in order to provide this manning. The Minister of Defence has made the appropriate arrangements. This House should duly authorise that and support our personnel in that way. As for what the future may hold, we don\u2019t know that, but in the meantime, we don\u2019t undermine the good-faith bargaining efforts on both sides, and we expect and hope that the matter will be resolved as soon as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5ca6518faba48c6ab226e40d1f2dd83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5ca6518faba48c6ab226e40d1f2dd83\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019m going to take a call from Tangi Utikere, and I would just say at this point that, because this is not a committee stage of a bill but we do have differing circumstances here, I note that the Minister has spoken to all of the amendments that have been put forward up to this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002263e47429622f451398c44feff7658c61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263e47429622f451398c44feff7658c61\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North): \u003C/span\u003EThank you, Madam Speaker. Look, it\u2019s not my intention to take a full call. I want to just touch on some of the aspects that I had raised but we\u2019ll see where we go. I do want to thank the Minister for his responses. He has provided a response to some of the issues that I was interested in around the dates, so I won\u2019t delve too deeply into that. However, I would just place on record, I suppose, the disappointment that that\u2019s the view that the Government have formed in terms of not effectively landing on a date that is much earlier than 14\u00A0February. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe reason that I say that is because, even if the Minister\u2019s view is that there is not a desire to place any undue influence as part of any negotiation process, it would still be open to the House if it was, for example, 10 November\u2014the date suggested by the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2014to simply reconnect and take a further decision at that point, bearing in mind that things are still ongoing. But, as I say, I won\u2019t dwell on that, except to indicate the sense of rarity by which these particular orders have been taken. There is no suggestion on this side of the House that the Minister of Defence is not authorised to take the action that she has taken\u2014that is, clearly, not in dispute\u2014however, what is the requirement of how long those particular extensions would remain in place? The Act is very specific in that it is a responsibility of this House to provide an oversight lens over when things are taken, and so, even though the Acting Minister has made his views very clear on the dates, none the less it\u2019s disappointing to hear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I would invite the Minister, in what might be his final contribution, to respond to are some of the issues that I touched on when the House was considering this on Thursday evening. The Minister will know I took the last call before the House, effectively, rose for the week, and he did respond to some from his seat, so I know his views on some of those things. However, one of the things that has not yet been addressed is why it is that the notice that was issued by the defence Minister on 5\u00A0November was very specific as to the locations that were included in that notice; subsequent ones are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat we now see in the Government\u2019s amendment this afternoon is that they have specified some locales or locations. I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister around why there is a change in tack on that particular score. To assist the House, though, I will seek to amend or move an amendment to the Government\u2019s own amendment that would basically insert the amendment that I originally had. I know it\u2019s a little bit of a strange situation that we find ourself in this afternoon, but I do want to do that because I don\u2019t want to lose sight of the fact that if the Government\u2019s amendment is successful\u2014albeit a new one\u2014it still captures the specific armed forces locations that are named in my earlier amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI did reflect, though, on whether that was necessary or not. I\u2019ve had a look at the amendment in the Hon Penny Simmonds\u2019 name, and I think that the first bit there under (c), which is basically flagging the location Kauri Point for security guard services\u2014actually, I will just point out that one of the interesting things for this amendment is we\u2019ve heard about security services and we hear about firefighting services. The question that then kind of remains is, well, what is coming next? If we actually had dispensed with this matter on Thursday\u2014not that it should have been dispensed with in a non-timely manner\u2014we\u00A0would be commencing a whole new process for the most recent decision that the defence Minister has taken. What is to say that there will be further decisions that are taken by the Minister of Defence that will warrant use of the House\u2019s time, none the less?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EHowever, if I can return back to the other bullet point about Kauri Point, I don\u2019t actually think that is captured by my original amendment, which is why I think it\u2019s important it still needs to stay\u2014likewise for the second bullet point, which references the specific role of an individual in the defence force who is an intelligence specialist trained in electronic warfare to undertake the helicopter systems. I know Dr Webb had touched on that. My question to the Minister is: would the person that is undertaking that particular role have been captured by the amendment that was lodged in my name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe intention of lodging the amendment was to basically specify all of the armed forces locations that are indicated there. What we have is a member of the Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF)\u2014one assumes that they would be domestically captured by the locations that are contained in the specific amendment there. That\u2019s a particular question for the Minister. As for the follow-on paragraph there that relates to those that are located at RNZAF Base Auckland and Waiouru Military Camp, I think that would have actually been captured by the original one. Really, I guess it\u2019s just hinging on that second one, which is trying to ensure that there is no dichotomy or difference between the locations and the specific roles that are listed there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOn that basis, I will stick with moving the amendment to the amendment for the Government motion. I do so because I rely on the contribution that had been made last week, which talks about the constituents that I represent. I know that the particular original motion does actually refer to Linton Military Camp and others, but those are the questions that I\u2019ll leave for the Minister to, hopefully, pick up and respond to in due course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022268ee1b768df4d788a54b2e4be532aa2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Before the Minister sits down, just for the clarity of the Chair, are you moving an amendment to your amendment, and if so, could you read it out, please, so that we are aware of the amendment. For any other members who are going to do this: if you are intending to speak, could you talk to the amendment, or if you intend to move an amendment could you actually please move that amendment at the beginning of your presentation, so we actually can work out what what\u2019s being amended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ca115ffd2c0494b93413ddec8d54431\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. For clarity, I have moved an amendment to the Government\u2019s amendment. My amendment simply inserts\u2014I can read it out in its entirety if that would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fed994616054c11a1e32c113242dcdb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this not your original amendment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212809ccb02b74d29a1a5a9174f311137\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is, but Mr Speaker has determined that what is permissible is for amendments to be taken as part of this particular consideration to the Government\u2019s amendment. What I am seeking to do, sir, is to basically incorporate my, I suppose, original amendment to be part of the Government\u2019s amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249841274c7764471876415095fe49518\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Would you mind just reading that out, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f50c9c6e56412da48abe6685ec2b1c\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly. I move, That the following be incorporated at the end of (c) in the Government\u2019s amendment: \u201CAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces located at Devonport Naval Base, RNZAF Base Auckland, Papakura Military Camp, RNZAF Base Ohakea, Linton Military Camp, Trentham Military Camp, Burnham Military Camp, RNZAF Base Woodbourne, Headquarters, Joint Forces New Zealand.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002252deca08cd7b452983f1be48d25df1d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252deca08cd7b452983f1be48d25df1d9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: All right, thank you for doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002225e9f11b30f842e984d4b117644a777b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225e9f11b30f842e984d4b117644a777b\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. I rise with the intention of having to make an amendment to my amendment from last Thursday, as well. This is because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9e19ea00d484c8f943a5e36264b3c67\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Surely, it can\u2019t get worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278fb843fdac54b9bb93b8a38e65872ee\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The member on the Government side just said, \u201CSurely, this can\u2019t get worse.\u201D That\u2019s what was just spoken from a Government member, and I think that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022491659f7ebf04bcb8fbeb2c84441d8d3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: To that member, I\u2019ve asked the members to be specific about their amendments, so I don\u2019t appreciate those sort of comments while we\u2019re working out what the amendment is\u2014not useful. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275ad0b9a55ad428d881175853c322c2e\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The reason I have to rise to amend my amendment is because it doesn\u2019t actually fit any more. Because of the new amendments that were dropped this afternoon, it basically flies in the face of what I had, and I\u2019m going to have to move it around. I\u2019ve been thinking carefully and frantically writing to get it in the right place, but it will probably go in at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t really talk about my high school and how badly I did, but when it comes to things like semicolons and full stops, there is a bit of a drafting issue here, which I want to just clarify. I will read my amendment just so that we\u2019re very clear. On the 14th, my amendment in my name stated \u201Cafter (camps and bases.)\u201D, and I went on to put my amendment in. I now have to change that because the full stop no longer exists; it now is a semicolon. The new amendment I have is To amend the Government notice of motion No. 1, in my name, that after \u201C(facilitate this work.)\u201D\u2014I want to insert next point\u2014\u201Cas long as the above authorisations are in place, the Minister will update the House on the progress being made to settle this industrial dispute on a weekly basis or on the next sitting day.\u201D be added. The reason to put it right at the end there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022194ab196a3a1461b9b63e9755fce6e8d\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the bit that took all the thought?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec2fa680f65140539ca83c48d24d968e\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is, because it was around where does it go\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022862c7c3538f14a259d75ab07e2ed72ed\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c2150f60f8e41abb05841c3587372c7\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and, again, I\u2019m being laughed at from the other side. I don\u2019t think they should really be laughing when it seems like it\u2019s a bit of their own inability to get this right that we\u2019re having to go through this process. When I get jeers and laughs, I think they should actually be looking at themselves first, because we shouldn\u2019t need to be actually having to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWhat I want to talk about is the semicolon and the full stop, because in the original notice of motion there are no full stops; there are no semicolons. The inconsistency this will bring now, because we have three points, which end \u201C(camps and bases.)\u201D\u2014with a full stop\u2014and then the next three points added after that all have semicolons afterwards. It is a bit of a drafting challenge. I had to make sure of what the point of them is in there, because it was made quite clear in the amendment to this amendment from the Government, from the Hon Penny Simmonds, that she was going to replace \u201Cbases.\u201D with \u201Cbases;\u201D. I\u2019m really just trying to understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI think the challenge we have here, as the Hon Dr Webb did say earlier\u2014the member for Christchurch Central\u2014is that this should be a last resort, not a first resort. The challenge we have is that we\u2019re rushing things through and mistakes are being made. That is what we really need to consider this afternoon, and just simple things like making sure that punctuation is correct so that it actually is in order, so that once it\u2019s all\u2014because I\u2019m assuming, unless members across the floor choose to come and join us on this side, this will eventually pass. There will be inconsistencies once it\u2019s actually merged together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe reason I leave this amendment right to the end of the new amended amendment is, basically, to sum up the whole of the six points. The reason I do that is because I really feel and believe that democracy needs accountability and so, therefore, having the Minister having to report back to this House is something that must be considered. Nowhere within this motion and the amendment to the motion is there anywhere that says that the Minister needs to keep this House informed. I won\u2019t relitigate the argument, but we\u2019ve heard that the last time this was used was 23 years ago, so this is a rare occurrence and we need to make sure that the Minister is speaking to this, making sure that we\u2019re tracking with this. I also hope that it puts good pressure on the Minister to ensure that the issues are solved and that we can actually remove this motion, so it is unnecessary for sworn officers to actually be doing this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EMy question is around just making sure that there is consistency\u2014there\u2019s consistency in terms of the motion and what\u2019s added to it\u2014where full stops should be, where semicolons should be, and what the final motion will finish with. Secondly, in terms of where I think it should be added, I\u2019ve actually handwritten it here and I will table it at the end of this, in terms of the fact that right at the end there, after \u201Cfacilitate this work.\u201D to add\u2014maybe it should be a semicolon, then, if we\u2019re going to add them; I\u2019m not sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s my piece. I will table this. I hope that we can come to some kind of conclusion. Democracy can take time, democracy can be messy, but none the less we\u2019ve got to ensure that democracy is the pinnacle and the foundation of this House and of any kind of legislation, any kind of motion, any kind of mahi that is done here. We have to make sure that democracy prevails at all times, even when it\u2019s uncomfortable and even when it\u2019s a bit messy and even when it does involve a few semicolons and full stops, or whatever it is. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002246ff7e90f8e54a38a97a48ec2ba12e41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246ff7e90f8e54a38a97a48ec2ba12e41\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aa3c1d05b15c43beb0dd35ca91f8bd94\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002275f6bccc571f4055acd200633c49c1a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275f6bccc571f4055acd200633c49c1a8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s amendment to replace the date in her amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fee8093e916b4350984c98cbf79c23e8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002201138dce9cfe45e09b8a47d6bf3a620f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201138dce9cfe45e09b8a47d6bf3a620f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment in the name of Camilla Belich be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002241197d5b752248bd84ab66b06f34d994\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e355a22d9f064048b045f7084590edc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e355a22d9f064048b045f7084590edc1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s amendment to replace the date in his amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002292bf9e3ba959436b88ef2bd169ede1b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022aef4ae4ef3bc4ba8b98901a392858314\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aef4ae4ef3bc4ba8b98901a392858314\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment in the name of the Hon Kieran McAnulty be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022538005371853479cbbcefb32b6d282a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225f2a313a714b49398633482b505036b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f2a313a714b49398633482b505036b0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Glen Bennett\u2019s amendment to his previous amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022162e449f846e4e0a9adec095954b7699\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3d4ea676052458eb458cbca409aeea7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3d4ea676052458eb458cbca409aeea7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment in the name of Glen Bennett be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224091c86d4d244ee7806c7f76910fd66d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002254d8c275be864459a527c2ff02ef7443\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254d8c275be864459a527c2ff02ef7443\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment in the name of Tangi Utikere be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d3a609ec95164f4dacc814dc2f68f30c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaa404b3ab74433db45e861cc5deb6fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaa404b3ab74433db45e861cc5deb6fc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to the Hon Penny Simmonds\u2019 amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d10ecc8b11dc41668ead08319f23b4cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222af357c912df408cbb97d17d2b03d263\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222af357c912df408cbb97d17d2b03d263\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment in the name of the Hon Penny Simmonds be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f567ecb54ed64102aa3a8f57f4513b99\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227bc72ddd03b544d7bca525e5d836ae05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bc72ddd03b544d7bca525e5d836ae05\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment in the name of Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b4805fc80be94e34b2a9792cde4b11ec\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022643741d7309f412d982d2ae297425960\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022643741d7309f412d982d2ae297425960\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question now is that, under section\u00A09(8) of the Defence Act 1990, the following authorisations given on 5\u00A0November\u00A02024, 11\u00A0November\u00A02024, and 18\u00A0November\u00A02024 to use the armed forces to provide public services in connection with an industrial dispute be extended to 14\u00A0February\u00A02025:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces located at RNZAF Base Auckland to provide aircraft rescue and firefighting services;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces posted to HQNZDF, Trentham and Linton Military Camps to provide security guard services for Defence House and Pipitea House, Wellington;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces located at specified camps and bases to provide security guard services at those camps and bases;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of appropriately trained members of the armed forces located at Kauri Point to provide security guard services at Kauri Point;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAuthorisation for the use of a member of the RNZAF who is an intelligence specialist trained in electronic warfare to undertake work to validate and update the software package for the SH-2G(I) systems;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAuthority for the use of members of the armed forces comprising RNZAF armament technicians located at RNZAF Base Auckland and members of the New Zealand Army located at Waiouru Military Camp who are qualified weapons technicians to inspect, maintain and service, prepare, uplift, and deliver weapons and munitions to HMNZS\u00A0Te\u00A0Kaha, and to perform any ancillary services or receive training necessary to facilitate this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a04fd2e3a1c648ffa701b362ba873a27\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002244ed36fc17cc4f4a8ede0a56248b85e1\u0022\u003ECrimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3a66523ce894042ba401f6231f94dd1\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5b716238c3446738aa235e782276a4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5b716238c3446738aa235e782276a4b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223a066abb1974ec89740e7df1695ecb8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f47cd64fc48b4838af9ccaa5b92ba1e8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to restoring law and order and strengthening democracy and freedoms. I\u2019m very proud to present this bill to the House today because it supports both of these important goals. Many of the Government\u2019s initiatives to date have focused on addressing challenges that we face domestically, such as tackling gangs and reducing youth offending. This bill is different because it responds to challenges we face in the international context. In particular, it addresses the growing issue of foreign interference. This term encompasses a broad range of activities but, in essence, describes when a foreign State undertakes or supports activities that target New Zealand that go beyond appropriate forms of State-to-State engagement and are intended to undermine our sovereignty, national security, and way of life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt is necessary, first, to say that it is normal and acceptable for States to interact and work to influence one another; this encourages cooperation and can have mutually beneficial outcomes. International relations activities, transparent lobbying, and other forms of open and cooperative engagement with the New Zealand Government and members of the public are welcome. However, the Government is aware that some foreign States are engaging in activities in New Zealand that go beyond this and are relying on conduct that is deceptive, covert, or coercive. These acts often involve the use of new and widely used forms of technology and are intended to inappropriately manipulate our democracy, economy, academic institutions, and media. They are also being used to place undue pressure on individuals and our communities in order to control or stifle the exercise of rights and freedoms in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EOur intelligence and security agencies report that foreign interference targeting our democratic institution largely takes the form of attempts to deceptively influence policy makers and undermine the independence of our domestic and foreign policy decisions. The agencies report that our refugee, migrant, ethnic, and religious communities are frequently targeted. Community members are harassed and monitored, and attempts have been made to prevent them from developing or expressing views that foreign States consider subversive. Reflecting on these examples, we must be mindful that the important work we are doing here today, and in the future, might also attract efforts to undermine and hinder progress of this bill\u2014this should not deter us. In short, foreign interference is a threat to our sovereignty and security, undermines our interests, and causes harm to our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe bill I introduced today amends the Crimes Act 1961 to strengthen New Zealand\u2019s criminal-justice response to foreign interference and espionage. The bill does this in two key ways: first, it introduces two new criminal offences that specifically respond to foreign interference. Second, it makes changes to a small number of existing offences to ensure that they are fit for purpose in the modern context and adequately cover activities that aim to prejudice New Zealand\u2019s security or defence. The central feature of this bill is a new offence that criminalises the act of foreign interference. The offence will apply to individuals working on behalf of a foreign power. This is defined in the offence and includes, but is not limited to, foreign States and officials, State entities, and governing political parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ETo commit the offence, a person\u2019s conduct must include all of the following elements: it must be undertaken for, or on behalf of, a foreign power; and be covert, deceptive, corruptive, or coercive; and, thirdly, be meant to compromise protected New Zealand interests. This ensures the offence does not criminalise appropriate foreign influence occurring through diplomatic or political channels. Foreign States or State agents that advocate for their country\u2019s interests in an open and transparent manner may continue to do so unimpeded. The offence will also not apply to people who do not know, and have no reasonable way of determining, that they are being used by a foreign State to undertake foreign interference against New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe second new offence in the bill further criminalises existing imprisonable offences where they are committed to benefit a foreign power in specified ways. This can result in an uplift in the overall penalty imposed for criminal acts meant to undermine New Zealand\u2019s sovereignty. This offence recognises that some activities used to undertake or support foreign interference are already offences in New Zealand. This includes, for example, intimidation, blackmail, and corruption. The significance of these criminal acts, and the harms they cause, increases when they are committed in New Zealand to support a foreign power. This will now be accounted for in our criminal law. The targeted design of the new offences, along with the additional safeguard of requiring the Attorney-General\u2019s consent to a prosecution, helps to ensure that lawful and appropriate conduct does not inadvertently attract criminal activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ETurning to the changes to the existing offences, the bill amends provisions related to espionage and wrongful communication, retention, or copying of information. New Zealand\u2019s espionage offence makes it illegal to intentionally transfer information or objects overseas to prejudice New Zealand\u2019s security or defence. This is one of the most egregious acts a person can take against New Zealand and is comparable to treason and other serious crimes against public order. The offence is an important feature of our criminal law, and it applies to acts done anywhere in the world by people who owe allegiance to the Sovereign in right of New Zealand. However, the \u201Cowing allegiance\u201D term used in the offence is not defined\u2014this creates uncertainty as to who can commit it. To address this, the bill inserts a definition of the \u201Cowing allegiance\u201D term into the Crimes Act to provide greater prosecution certainty and make it clear who can be held accountable for acts of espionage committed both inside and outside of New Zealand. New offences are also being created to\u00A0address criminal-liability gaps that arise from the use of the term. This way, everyone who owes allegiance can be held liable as a party if they assist others to commit acts that amount to espionage against New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe bill also strengthens accountability for unauthorised disclosures of Government information that is likely to prejudice New Zealand\u2019s security or defence. This includes by expanding the scope of entities covered by the current wrongful communication of information offences to address notable gaps, such as information held by local government and Offices of Parliament not previously captured; secondly, making it explicit that sharing\u00A0military tactics, techniques, and procedures is an offence\u2014this provides certainty for when\u00A0this type of sensitive information can be lawfully disclosed\u2014and ensuring that information that was formerly Government information remains in scope of relevant offences as it can still prejudice New Zealand\u2019s interests if disclosed without authorisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThese changes strengthen our criminal-justice response to foreign interference and\u00A0espionage by providing a means to better hold people to account for committing harmful acts against New Zealand. However, legislation alone cannot prevent this malign activity. It\u2019s important to recognise that this bill is part of a wider Government response to foreign interference, which includes Government agencies working together and with local government, business, academia, and communities to build resilience to foreign-interference threats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn addition to supporting successful prosecutions of interference activity, these criminal sanctions have wider benefits, including protecting individuals, academics, and businesses from efforts to interfere with their activities or manipulate them to unwillingly support foreign interference. It also will deter people from undertaking harmful and unsafe interference-related conduct. It will assist agencies by enabling cross-agency cooperation and access to a broader suite of tools and incentivising foreign States to positively shift behaviours in response to legal changes. I\u2019m proud to bring this bill to the House today because of what it means for New Zealand as the country as a whole. We\u2019re delivering on our promise to make New Zealand safer and more secure and a place where everyone can enjoy the guaranteed rights and freedoms afforded to them under our laws. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022847af65d21c943d88628a0230cfc30d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022847af65d21c943d88628a0230cfc30d3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002287cd371aeb9e46e49a4a2056f09e0741\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287cd371aeb9e46e49a4a2056f09e0741\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker, and thank you for that. I think it is really important when we come to matters such as foreign interference that we, wherever possible, reach a position which is agreed across all parties and endures. However, any of these issues raise genuine concerns about freedom of information, freedom of speech, privacy, and related concerns. This bill is no different there. The Labour Party will be supporting this bill to select committee. Of course, this bill comes before the House at a busy time, shall we say, with a lot of other things going on around us, and it\u2019s important that we\u2019re not distracted by those from this important issue, which will have a more lasting impact on our statute book than some of the other bills before this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EFirst of all, foreign interference is clearly real and, as is noted in the various papers, including the regulatory impact statement, changing significantly, and we do need absolutely to keep up with that. There are instances, noted in the regulatory impact statement, of political figures being influenced by foreign powers. I do think we need to make a very clear distinction between foreign influence and foreign interference and the legitimacy and illegitimacy that distinguishes those. Foreign powers of all kinds can quite legitimately seek to influence New Zealanders, the New Zealand Government, and New Zealand politicians, and they do it every day, but that should be done in a transparent manner and one which is free of any taint of corruption or wrongdoing. To do it in a covert manner is, of course, deeply problematic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThere are a number of things we\u2019ll need to look at, and I won\u2019t mention them all, but the criminalisation of reckless conduct\u2014that is, to say, conduct which lacks a degree of care or is highly careless but not intentional\u2014is difficult. We need to be very, very careful that people who are publishing a newspaper or running a Facebook page, or whatever it might be, who were pretty careless when they were checking out who was funding them or the motives of the person giving them some editorial direction\u2014we need to be very careful before we make that an offence which is criminal and imprisonable by 14 years. I think we need to test that degree of intention required very, very carefully indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ECrimes of information, which is what this is about, largely, are particularly problematic because detecting them requires considerable intrusion and search. One of the things that is used by our intelligence agencies and others is warrantless search powers, and this Government has got a certain affection for warrantless search powers, it appears, and I\u2019m a bit concerned that they\u2019re not going to turn their mind to the very question of whether this is essential. Is it absolutely necessary to have this warrantless search power, given the nature of the crime and the way in which it can be detected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe Privacy Commissioner has expressed concerns around this, and we think those are very legitimate concerns. Having said that, I know, from my own experience of immigrant communities coming to me, that foreign powers do exert influence in New Zealand over local communities. We need to get on top of that, so we\u2019ll approach this in a cooperative manner, but we want to give this a really good working over, and I certainly hope that it gets a good degree of attention at select committee. Kia ora, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3b492d547e140f2863af4cd5682e293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3b492d547e140f2863af4cd5682e293\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Greens to take a call on the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill, and just noting the incredible importance of having an independent foreign policy, one that recognises where we are: we are here in the South Pacific, we are here in the Pacific, we are a member of a nation of Pacific nations. Making sure that we have that regional focus is incredibly, incredibly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThis bill creates a number of offences, and I guess, just to get to the crux of it, the Greens won\u2019t be supporting this bill. There is a certain amount of clarity which is deeply missing from this bill. There\u2019s the broadening of the offences. The bill does not tighten definitions of security; rather, it introduces offences that are broad in scope, which we have a problem with\u2014offences that are unacceptably broad in scope, including the widening of the definition of \u201Cdeceptive\u201D, \u201Creckless\u201D, \u201Ccoercive\u201D, and \u201CNew Zealand interest\u201D. I\u2019ll come back to the New Zealand interest part in just a second, but I think it\u2019s important to note that we have had foreign interference in this country as well, and that is a problem, and that is an issue, but we do roll out the red carpet for some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI note that the Government Communications Security Bureau, or GCSB, between 2013 and 2020\u2014seven years\u2014had a spy agency parked up at that bureau, which points to the fact that we actually have had foreign influence within our sphere. Some foreign influence, it seems, is OK, while others is not. It is our role within Five Eyes which is problematic, noting that one of those eyes is a Trumpian-sized eye, which has more influence over the other four smaller eyes. If we remember the last time President Trump was in the presidency, it was erratic and volatile, so what will the next three to four years be if we continue to move in that direction? Will this bill be holding the US to account; the UK to account? I ask that because, in one of the broad sections, there is a bit about what is in, or not in, the New Zealand interest. Well, what does that mean? What does it mean for something to be within the New Zealand interest, because we actually already have that in some of our legislation? In order to launch satellites into space, it needs to be made sure that they are not contrary to the New Zealand interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI put a whole lot of parliamentary written questions up to find out exactly what that was. For example, parliamentary question No. 64705 to the Minister asked, \u201CIs the Minister aware that the U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command has a missile defense battery with radar in Israel and if so, will this prohibit further launches from New Zealand and if not, why not?\u201D I also put up another one, written question No. 66157, around BlackSky: \u201CIs the Minister aware that BlackSky who has a contract to supply high temporal frequency images and analysis to the Israeli Defence ministry and if so, will this prohibit further launches from New Zealand and if not, why not?\u201D The answer I got to that particular one was: \u201CYes, I am aware. National interest\u201D\u2014so things that are in the New Zealand interest\u2014\u201Cfor payload permit applications under the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Act 2017 is reviewed on a case-by-case basis.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the thing: there is an assessment process where things might be deemed at risk of being contrary to the New Zealand interest, but the kicker is that none of those assessment analyses has actually ever happened. The question I have for the Government speakers is: when they talk about the New Zealand interest, what exactly do they mean? What exactly do they mean? I ask that question because they\u2019ve got AUKUS knocking on our door\u2014knocking on our door\u2014for New Zealand to join. I ask whether it is in the best interests of Aotearoa New Zealand to join AUKUS\u2014I would suggest not, particularly in the political climate that we have in the US, with the uncertainty that they are facing with another presidency under Trump.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EIf we\u2019re going to talk about foreign interference, and I can see even though the names of those countries are not mentioned in this bill, we have to be even-handed\u2014relationship diplomacy is something that we do well\u2014so that we can continue to do well. That is what our role is in the Pacific and around the globe. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u00227ef31f37683d4982bc765eb93b07fc14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ef31f37683d4982bc765eb93b07fc14\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Today, I stand before you guys on behalf of ACT in support of the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill, a vital piece of legislation aimed at strengthening our legal framework to protect New Zealand\u2019s sovereignty and national interest from the growing threat of foreign interference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EFirstly, just to touch base on the previous speaker Teanau Tuiono\u2019s notes around AUKUS, they\u2019re not knocking on our door. We\u2019ve not even been invited to join at this point, so I think that rhetoric is kind of somewhat harmful and just adds to that sort of hype\u2014just to keep that in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re in an era where global competition and geopolitical tensions are increasingly influencing our international relations. The need for New Zealand to safeguard its democracy, security, and values has never been more urgent. We are facing new challenges\u2014covert, deceptive and often invisible activities carried out by foreign powers that seek to manipulate, disrupt, or even harm the core functions of our society. Whether through cyber-attacks, covert influence campaigns, or attempts to distort our political processes, these activities are direct threats to our national interests. The Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill represents a critical response to these threats, building on our existing legal framework to ensure that our criminal law can adequately address foreign interference in all its forms. It updates the Crimes Act 1961 with three key objectives that will enhance our ability to detect, deter, and punish foreign actors attempting to undermine New Zealand\u2019s security, democracy, and way of life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EFirst, the bill introduces new offences specifically targeting foreign interference. These new offences will criminalise the actions taken on behalf of a foreign power to intentionally or recklessly harm New Zealand\u2019s national interests. This includes activities that compromise our national security, interfere with our elections, or undermine the human rights of New Zealanders. These offences cover a wide range of harmful behaviours ranging from espionage to sabotage, to attempts to influence decision making or distort public opinion. The penalties for such actions are severe: up to 14 years in prison for intentional conduct, and up to 10 years for reckless behaviour. These new offences send a strong and clear message that foreign interference, whether directed at our Government, businesses, media, or communities, will not be tolerated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EWhy is this bill so important? We live in a world where foreign interference is an escalating concern; New Zealand is not isolated at all from global threats. The activities of foreign powers have increasingly targeted our interests. The New Zealand Security Intelligence Service has highlighted the significant risks posed by foreign interference in our politics, economy, and society. Communities, academia, businesses, and even our public servants are not immune from these foreign pressures. This bill is not just about criminalising harmful conduct; it is about sending a strong message that New Zealand stands firm in protecting its sovereignty. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219e120b4f5a946eeb03147671218c8e7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms McClure, I wonder, after sort of a year here, we\u2019re ready to start not reading our speeches, beginning to end, but I\u2019ll leave that up to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u002298ce3d43a9294db1864aef5d3ce865bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298ce3d43a9294db1864aef5d3ce865bc\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in favour of the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill. This is an important and practical piece of legislation. I commend the Minister for bringing it to the House and I acknowledge the hard work of the Justice Committee that will be lying ahead of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThis is an important piece of legislation because we are needing to ensure we maintain resilience. As Minister of Customs and the Minister responsible for combating transnational organised crime, we have a daily reminder of the amount of interference and the high need of protection that we have. This is about protecting New Zealand\u2019s national interests and ensuring that we have resilience and we deal with the risk of interference so that we can be\u00A0seen as a nation that is strong and we protect our sovereign identity. Therefore, New Zealand First commends the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00222c9b2723c66349b5b379bb69d95e1728\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c9b2723c66349b5b379bb69d95e1728\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I, along with my colleagues, welcome this bill into the House as thoroughly explained and outlined by the Minister the Hon Paul Goldsmith in his opening speech, and also in the legislative statement. I also acknowledge some of the concerns raised by Duncan Webb, who sits on the Justice Committee. As the chair of the Justice Committee, I\u2019m sure we will give those concerns thorough consideration for bill No. 26. I fear that within the next hour and a half my facts and figures are going to become out of date. So, with that, I\u2019ll commend the bill to the House, and I look forward to seeing it at the Justice Committee forthwith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002289333df01cb642209e57c8d380192fb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289333df01cb642209e57c8d380192fb3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has already said, the Labour Party will be supporting this to select committee, and, indeed, I note that a quick search of the internet confirmed my memory that this work actually commenced under the last Labour Government, and the intention to introduce this legislation\u2014at that stage, not drafted\u2014was announced by the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins in 2023. On this side of the House, we do acknowledge that there is an issue to be addressed. I also endorse Duncan Webb\u2019s comments that, if possible around these issues, it\u2019s good if we can reach a cross-party accord at least with a substantial majority of the votes in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of issues for me. I agree with Duncan Webb that the select committee is going to need to look at this issue as to what level of knowledge is required. If the legislative statement uses the same wording as was used by the Minister of Justice in his opening remarks when he said that it does not apply to people who do not know and have no reasonable way of determining that they\u2019re being used by a foreign power, whereas the wording in the legislation is slightly different and uses the words \u201Cthe person knows, or ought to know\u201D, which is a different wording, and if recklessness is intended to be the standard here, rather than a lower standard, then maybe the select committee can look as to whether those words in new section 78AAA(3)(b) that are being inserted by clause 10 of the bill\u2014as to whether that is the appropriate articulation of recklessness. I think, on that issue, we actually ought to err on the side of civil liberties here, and if there isn\u2019t recklessness, I\u2019m not sure that we should imply intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other two issues I would like to raise are in respect of people to whom this will apply in New Zealand. It\u2019s, essentially, anyone in New Zealand unless they enjoy immunity as a diplomat under articles 31 or 37 of the Vienna convention, as given effect to by relevant law in New Zealand, or their family, which is what\u2019s covered in the next paragraph. Essentially, if you\u2019re diplomatic staff, then even if you were doing these things, you would not be caught by this legislation, and my understanding is that for there to be a remedy for those sorts of people, what the Government does is withdraw diplomatic immunity, and that person then, essentially, has to leave the country. But there is no remedy against people who are working in embassies. There\u2019s another exception if you\u2019re \u201Can enemy alien\u201D who isn\u2019t a citizen. That, by my reading, is, essentially, someone who comes from a country with whom we are at war, and then there\u2019s another exception for children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issue that\u2019s not addressed\u2014oh, sorry, the warrantless searches. If I\u2019ve got two minutes, I\u2019m going to make two more points. Warrantless search powers are contained in section 25 of the Search and Surveillance Acts 2012. The circumstances are limited to a small number of offences, and then there has to be a suspicion that on \u201Creasonable grounds \u2026 an offence \u2026 is being or will be committed\u201D and there\u2019s a case of great urgency which requires immediate attention and there\u2019s a belief that there is evidence in place\u2014that\u2019s the test. It\u2019s suggested that this particular offence be added to the range of offences that are captured by warrantless searches. The select committee needs to give attention to that and listen to submitters as to whether that\u2019s appropriate. I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s not, but that\u2019s an issue that the select committee will pay attention to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe final thing is I\u2019m very interested, as we\u2019re going to get submissions, as to what is missing from this bill\u2014and that is that most foreign interference now is actually through AI-generated bots that are using social media channels to influence people and to influence opinions through social media. There\u2019s a lot of media around about this; it\u2019s an increasing problem. This bill is completely silent on the issue. One of the underlying problems in that area of law is that internet service providers, including social media companies, have no liability for third-party content\u2014none. They\u2019ve got no duty of care to prevent it, even if they perhaps could reasonably be expected to be deploying AI these days to work against these AI-generated bots that have been used by foreign powers to unduly influence New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested as to whether we get submissions at the select committee on that issue, because it seems to me that is actually the issue: how can we create appropriate duties for social media, not to kill the internet but to create legal duties that they need to act responsibly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3729a5dc5b34127bac15b8f0fb7c006\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3729a5dc5b34127bac15b8f0fb7c006\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I too rise in support of this first reading of the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill. Essentially, what this bill seeks to do is fortify our criminal law here in New Zealand so as to respond with better purpose to the real security threats of foreign interference. We want to build resilience to foreign security threats here in New Zealand, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u002291785cd2b84a458ebcc02f4c392f390a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291785cd2b84a458ebcc02f4c392f390a\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise to take a call on the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill. This is a call in support, but not unconditional support. I think we all like to think about the idea of strengthening criminal law to better protect New Zealand from foreign interference. It sounds like a very good aim and goal. We know that there are currently gaps and limitations that are being exploited and that the exploitation of these gaps can cause harm to New Zealand and to New Zealanders. It can threaten our national security; it can threaten our sovereignty, our economy, our democracy; it can threaten the safety of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThere are some other benefits with strengthening the criminal law, as suggested in this amendment. One of those is the cross-agency cooperation and the access to the broader suite of tools that that will bring with it. I reflect on a contribution from an earlier member who spoke specifically about the potential impacts of AI and how having greater cross-agency cooperation and having that broader suite of tools available is going to put more resource and more capability into detecting and addressing the kinds of challenges that AI could present.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe other thing that\u2019s a benefit within this bill is the potential to protect targets from interference\u2014so, vulnerable or unwitting parties who will be targeted or who will provide support without realising that they\u2019re providing support. I think that\u2019s an interesting notion to reflect on, today of all days: the notion of a vulnerable party providing support to something that unwittingly it ends up supporting, allegedly. Also, one of the other good things, one of the other benefits, is to incentivise foreign States to only rely on appropriate forms of influence\u2014so, diplomatic advocacy, transparent lobbying, open and cooperative engagement. Those seem like good and positive benefits to come from this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI alluded at the beginning to there being some concerns as well. Whilst this is a call in support of this bill, I think it\u2019s worth noting and reflecting on the contributions from a number of members around caution around the scope of warrantless searches\u2014noting also the concern from the Privacy Commissioner around some of the content of the bill; also noting that we have recently seen quite large trims to the budgets for both the Security Intelligence Service and the Government Communications Security Bureau; so needing to be assured that we have the resourcing there for those agencies and entities to be able to do the work that we\u00A0expect of them and that we need them to be able to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EFinally, I\u2019ll just finish by saying the number of concerns that have been raised by members\u2014the things that need to be looked into, that need to be examined further and deeper\u2014is exactly what the select committee process is for. This is really a request to ensure that the governing parties give the full and proper select committee process to this\u00A0bill to ensure that all of those concerns are addressed and met. Given that we have other bills going to select committee that we know those parties are not intending to support, it would seem odd for this not to get at least the same level of time, scrutiny, and resource, being a bill that the Government is in favour of, as a bill that the Government isn\u2019t in favour of is getting\u2014so a full and deep select committee process to ensure that this bill comes back to the House in really good shape to be able to do what we want it to do, which is, as I said at the beginning, to strengthen our criminal law to better protect New Zealand from foreign interference. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00229058d4d397be43158054d62048604c5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229058d4d397be43158054d62048604c5a\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As the impact player at the end of this first reading on behalf of the National Party, I certainly commend the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill. It will be the 26th bill that the Justice Committee will hear over the coming weeks and months. We invite those submissions. We look forward to the discussion. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022023cf94a14ec4ab18767b1b1f917bc41\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000483\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022331a2a223c114e97961279209e1a2a30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022331a2a223c114e97961279209e1a2a30\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022138209e025be48049f17675acbae89dd\u0022\u003EDisputes Tribunal Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a86aa13b3fd44adab1b75a51c452b0db\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022567ce662824d4e199dbafe6e76b8a7d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022567ce662824d4e199dbafe6e76b8a7d8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d17d7e1ba604d7fbaa363860cdb3f00\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834ed4563775473b8ff807e30bae8700\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EImproving timely access to justice is a priority for this Government. I\u2019m proud to present this bill to the House, today. In essence, it doubles the current financial jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal from $30,000 to $60,000, and this will improve access to justice for New Zealanders. It will provide an affordable forum for resolving more lower-value claims at a\u00A0time when low-cost dispute resolution is increasingly important for New Zealanders. Around 2,000 claimants per year will experience improved access to justice as a result of\u00A0this bill. That\u2019s because New Zealanders with civil claims between $30,000 and $60,000 currently do not have an affordable place to take their claims. It\u2019s uneconomic to take civil claims of this nature to the District Court, due to the significant cost of legal and court-related fees. This is commonly referred to as the justice gap and leads to people abandoning the amount of their claim over $30,000 to fall within the Disputes Tribunal jurisdiction or\u00A0accepting a loss by not pursuing a claim at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThis does not support a well-functioning justice system. It\u2019s inconsistent with the rule of law and not helpful to the basic business of people getting on with their lives, taking risks in business, and resolving their disputes in a timely fashion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe Disputes Tribunal is a cheaper, more acceptable dispute resolution forum that\u2019s well suited to considering claims of up to $60,000. The tribunal takes an informal inquisitorial approach, and referees support parties to put their best case forward to determine the facts without the need for lawyers. The specific features of the tribunal make it less formal than a court\u2014quicker and cheaper\u2014and hearings are held in private. No standard right to legal representation creates an even playing field for both parties and eliminates legal fees. Limiting appeals to the issue of unfairness or prejudice promotes the finality of the decisions, and, thirdly, the statutory basis for the tribunal decision-making\u2014including that it shall have\u00A0regard to the law but not be bound to give effect to strict legal rights or obligations\u2014promotes flexible, pragmatic resolutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe low rate of appeals, rehearings, and complaints shows that the tribunal is operating effectively. New Zealanders have confidence in using it, and so we want to extend it. The tribunal is one of the busiest forums in the civil justice system. Despite this, it is effective in resolving disputes in a timely fashion, with one of the fastest disposal rates of the courts and tribunals in New Zealand, and I believe it\u2019s well placed to effectively manage higher-value claims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI expect claim numbers will slowly increase as people become aware of this, and this will be closely monitored and managed by the Ministry of Justice. The tribunal is funded by the Government and tribunal users pay a filing fee. It\u2019s appropriate that tribunal users help to recover some of the costs of administering the tribunal, given the private benefit of people having their disputes resolved. At higher values, the private benefits are greater, and with this change to the financial jurisdiction, parties will be able to recover up to $60,000 in debt owed. A new filing fee of $468 for claims of more than $30,000 will aid in cost recovery and help maintain current service levels. Most of the costs will continue to be met by the Crown, as there is significant public interest in ensuring citizens feel they have a viable method to enforce their rights and uphold the rule of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m aware that the requirement for the application to front the cost of filing an application fee can still be seen as a barrier, particularly where the applicant is not seeking financial compensation. This Government is separately progressing proposals through the Regulatory Systems (Tribunals) Amendment Bill, which will give Disputes Tribunal referees the discretion to order the respondent to repay the cost of the filing fee to a wholly or partly successful applicant. This will help ensure that the cost of pursuing justice does not fall on those who have been wronged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EMy hope is that by keeping this tribunal significantly cheaper than bringing proceedings in the District Court, in the absence of legal fees and additional court fees, it will continue to be seen as an affordable and accessible way to resolve disputes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill fulfils both the National Party\u2019s election manifesto commitment to raise the tribunal\u2019s financial jurisdiction, allowing it to resolve disputes of a higher value, and this Government\u2019s justice priority to improve timely access to dispute resolution. It\u2019s part of a broad-ranging justice response that focuses first on reducing the number of victims of violent crime, secondly on reducing that small number of serious repeat youth offenders, and, thirdly, on speeding up the processes of the courts. This particular bill responds to that third area. If we can help New Zealanders get a faster resolution to their disputes and move on with their lives in a timely fashion, then that\u2019s a useful thing to do. On that basis, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227be9e1e0442a425584d89f486be0168f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227be9e1e0442a425584d89f486be0168f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00221b2416366db04bf3987fd5f47667e619\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b2416366db04bf3987fd5f47667e619\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We will support this bill, but in many ways there\u2019s a couple of funny things about it. In many ways, it\u2019s a missed opportunity. Raising the jurisdiction certainly provides access to justice or fills what the regulatory impact statement calls the \u201Cjustice gap\u201D, whereby going to the District Court, where lawyers are not essential but pretty handy, the costs are difficult to meet\u2014whereas, in the Disputes Tribunal, lawyers in fact aren\u2019t allowed, except in very limited circumstances. That will increase access to justice in some ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EHowever, the difficulties with the Disputes Tribunal jurisdiction, once we get to $60,000, is its high degree of informality. For example, there is no requirement that a person\u2014who is, essentially, a judge\u2014making an order in respect of that amount has legal qualifications, and whilst most, if not all, appointments are in fact legally qualified, it may well be time to reflect that in the legislation. In fact, the legislation itself does not require a Disputes Tribunal referee to decide a case according to the law; a Disputes Tribunal referee can decide a case in accordance with equity and fairness, but \u201Cwith regard\u201D to the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a pretty interesting situation where you can be in a contractual dispute with, say, your builder, or whatever, for $60,000 and the Disputes Tribunal referee says, \u201CI\u2019ve looked at the law and I\u2019ve had a good regard to it, but I don\u2019t agree with it, so you lose.\u201D Now, that\u2019s a matter of concern, but you don\u2019t have a right to appeal. Only for, essentially, a breach of natural justice, a failure in the procedure itself, would you get a right of appeal. These are all things where there\u2019s an opportunity to tidy up: rights of appeal, qualifications of Disputes Tribunal referees, and the need, at this level, to decide cases on the basis of the law and not well-meaning reckons\u2014although, to be fair, I\u2019m pretty sure Disputes Tribunal referees do try to apply the law wherever they can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing that could be tidied up here is the jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal itself, in terms of the subject matter. It\u2019s got a relatively narrow jurisdiction in respect of contractual disputes and some tort disputes. It can consider car crashes, basic negligence, but it can\u2019t consider economic torts or torts of, for example, defamation or nuisance. It can\u2019t consider a civil trespass or questions of title to land or rights over land. It can\u2019t consider any questions of equity or trusts. All of those things are things that can crop up just as easily, and people have just as much access to justice issues there as anywhere else. I\u2019m hopeful that we\u2019ll be able to have a good look at this when we come to the select committee, which I\u2019m sure we\u2019re excited about as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing is this: there\u2019s actually a really strange thing here. The Minister has imposed, or intends to impose, in this bill a $468 filing fee for claims over $30,000, I think it is. You know what: you can file a claim for up to $350,000 in the District Court for $260. There\u2019s a real mismatch when you can go to the District Court for $260 but the Disputes Tribunal, which doesn\u2019t apply the law and doesn\u2019t have a judge, is $468 as well. Now, the other point here is this: in the District Court and every other court, if you can\u2019t afford the filing fee, you can apply for a waiver, but in the Disputes Tribunal you can\u2019t. If you\u2019re going to put up a barrier of $468, you need to be able to have a hardship waiver as well, because there\u2019ll be plenty of people who don\u2019t have $500 to front up with at the Disputes Tribunal. The committee has a lot of work to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022b52ee0a5e1c0405a9915d5583443674e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b52ee0a5e1c0405a9915d5583443674e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to speak on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand on the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill. The Green Party will support this bill as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of the context, I think the Hon Paul Goldsmith and also the Hon Dr Duncan Webb have already mentioned it, in terms of the fact that this predominantly increases the financial jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal from $30,000 to $60,000. This is something that we have seen increase a number of times over the years, noting that, for example, in 2009 the limit was only $7,500 at that stage. Like the bill suggests, and like the intention of the bill, yes, I think there is the possibility of creating a relief or some sort of relief in the District Court system by having some of that going to the Disputes Tribunal. In many ways, this will allow for more accessibility and also faster processing times in terms of the court system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, there are a couple of concerns. I think the previous speaker, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, has laid some of them out, and number one being that you will have to represent yourself. Once we\u2019re getting up to a certain level of threshold, there\u2019s also greater risk of that. There are also fewer legal protections for claimants, there are no judges, and also, like what we heard before, there is no waiver being applied to now the new administrative fee, essentially, of $468.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, in saying that, people will still have the flexibility of whether to take their case to the Disputes Tribunal or the District Court. But, considering there isn\u2019t a waiver, there is possibly the greater discussion of what, then, would people do, knowing that one is more expensive than the other and one doesn\u2019t have a waiver. Will we actually see the manifestation of the intended purpose of this particular bill? That is something that we are looking forward to teasing out during the select committee stage; but overall, it does offer greater flexibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESome of the other things that we would also be interested to hear during the select committee process is that we simply don\u2019t have the data right now of the number of civil claims that are between $30,000 and $100,000 at all, and they are not currently captured in the legal system. We also don\u2019t really know what is the maximum intent and the maximum benefit that we will see with this particular bill. Overall, although the Green Party supports the intention of this bill, we would like to see the purpose of this bill being that it does allow for some of that faster processing times and relieves some of the pressure that we have on our District Court system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFundamentally, we are seeing that our court systems are systemically underfunded in this environment and something like this is mainly pushing a certain section of the bill around within that greater ecosystem of the court system. Although this bill is good, we would like to see there being greater support to the court system across the board. Although there are other bills currently in the House around increasing, for example, the number of District Court judges, there is nothing that\u2019s concretely around increasing funding to the staffing. We haven\u2019t had tangible solutions in terms of some of the outdated and archaic filing systems and IT systems, which is currently in the works, and also some of the issues that we\u2019re seeing with District Courts and also in terms of building and infrastructure of District Courts in general, particularly District Courts and court systems in the rural and regional system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOverall, the Green Party is supportive of this bill. We are interested to hear more from the public during the select committee stage, particularly around some of the instances and some of the cases and the number of cases between $30,000 and $100,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u002213a78b997e754d23860e8a28d72923de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213a78b997e754d23860e8a28d72923de\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a very short call on behalf of ACT on the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill. I want to thank Minister Goldsmith for bringing this bill forward. I know he and Minister McKee, the Minister for Courts, do share a desire to speed up our justice system, and that is something that they are absolutely focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThis is a very important but small amendment, upping the amount that the Disputes Tribunal can look at, adding this extra tier\u2014basically increasing it up to S60,000\u2014and then adding this filing tier. This will make a material difference for people wanting to use this avenue to get disputes resolved. We think it\u2019s a very, very important bill, and it will actually do something practical for people out there. I will be commending it to the House on behalf of ACT and I, again, look forward to it coming to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re really, really looking forward to getting as many bills as possible before the Justice Committee. I think we\u2019ve picked up the second one today. I will be commending this to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022df5f8293f32d48adb62bc8f813ab0b8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df5f8293f32d48adb62bc8f813ab0b8b\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I rise again to take a call on the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill, which New Zealand First will be proudly supporting. It aligns with New Zealand First\u2019s commitment to a fairer New Zealand where justice is accessible to all, and it works efficiently to the benefit of every citizen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EExpanding the threshold ensures that we have the ability to close that gap that the Minister spoke of earlier and ensure that there is a process by which we can expand access to justice, which is a critical component, which I think is where this gap sits. It is about delivering some cost-effective dispute resolution, enabling some of those barriers to taking these claims through. There is also the knock-on effect that it does empower our small businesses and our communities to be a bit more brave, to be a bit less risk-averse, and to challenge things a bit more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EIt is about futureproofing this process and ensuring that we have recognition that there is a changing dynamic around the values of some of these disputes, and we want to ensure that people aren\u2019t getting away with things because it becomes too costly or too complex to seek the resolution that is appropriate. So, on that basis, New Zealand First will proudly commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00226b36e7370a404bcc9944b099388df8bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b36e7370a404bcc9944b099388df8bb\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I thank my lucky stars that I went to a strong secondary school like Timaru Boys\u2019 High School, which had a strong focus on numeracy and maths, because, by my count, this is the 27th bill that the Justice Committee will receive this term and consider. It\u2019s another absolute masterclass from Minister Paul Goldsmith in getting the simple changes that the country needs in order to get us back on\u00A0track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a few things I\u2019d like to raise in select committee that members have raised, one of which is around the filing fees. Of course, there is a filing fee of $468 proposed, and that is higher than the fee in the District Court, but then, of course, you\u2019ve got half-day hearings of\u00A0$1,200 and judicial settlement conferences of $1,200 in the District Court, so there are those other costs to consider as well when you\u2019re going through that process. They are the things that we can discuss in the select committee, and with that, I look forward to it traversing its way to us very, very shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3bc601195a24de89fce0efd09f39b67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3bc601195a24de89fce0efd09f39b67\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I am very interested in this bill. As a Labour member, I am concerned, and I have been for a long time, about the fact that people with these smaller amounts of money\u2014and it is a lot of money to a lot of people\u2014just simply have not had mechanisms that are affordable. I\u2019m extremely pleased to see this step in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI note that Dr Duncan Webb made some interesting points about the gaps that remain. I also noted that Paul Goldsmith seemed willing to consider those and I hope that the committee will look at them. The ones that I see: one is actually defamation. Defamation is a really undercooked tort in this country. There\u2019s a lot of people suffering a lot of damage on social media. I wonder whether there is a little bit of an opportunity there to build that in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI do take note that the people that sit on this tribunal aren\u2019t necessarily lawyers, and that\u2019s sometimes a really good thing to have a bit of a mix of people going on, because they come with a lot of acumen out of a more pragmatic approach sometimes. I don\u2019t actually have a problem with that. I can see that that means it might limit the kinds of things that you have in the Disputes Tribunal, because some are probably more legalistic than others. Some are quite formulaic, but actually defamation is one that is quite formulaic. It is a test that should be being applied more regularly than it is, and people should be more careful about the damage they do through the statements they make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI am interested, too, in the issue of the gap that\u2019s emerged where people have been compromising their claims, and I think that\u2019s very real. I think there are a lot of examples where people have compromised their claim just to get into this service and get away from what is actually an overwhelming system. We have a lot of work to do with regard to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also concerned beyond this bill, but I think it is relevant to it, in situations where people are actually just owed debt. Those situations where there is no dispute in play but people are owed debt, I don\u2019t think they\u2019re working particularly well either. It costs a lot of money to go into a situation where you get a statutory demand, and then you\u2019ve got to take an action, often in the High Court. The fees are actually exorbitant for that, so I think there may be some work that could be done in terms of also looking at an expansion in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI commend the work that\u2019s been done in looking at this. This matter is incredibly important to New Zealanders. This will affect our small businesses, and it will be something that will be incredibly important to a lot of individuals. Those are the people that in this Parliament we should be looking after. We often bring mechanisms into play which might be well meaning, but they are just too expensive for people to use in those situations. The Disputes Tribunal has worked well. I am always concerned about those kinds of mechanisms like inquisitorial systems because they have got some disadvantages as well. They can be a bit erratic in terms of the justice they mete out, but life is full of that sort of thing, and we\u2019ve got to kind of strike a balance here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI do see a lot of advantage in a system which doesn\u2019t involve lawyers at this kind of bar, and the $60,000 amount seems about right. I hope that the committee, of course, will also look at the amount. The submitters, I think, would be welcome to focus on things like whether, in fact, that is the right amount\u2014whether it should be $60,000, whether it should be $70,000, or whether it should be $100,000\u2014$100,000 is a lot of money. I would probably have concerns about going quite that high up, but it does seem that that would be a situation where submissions would be very helpful from real, live New Zealanders who have suffered harm under a system that has not necessarily catered for them as well as it should. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022a86af7e303794d41b79d50218e61a2ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a86af7e303794d41b79d50218e61a2ca\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise again for the second bill that the Justice Committee is receiving this evening. Today, it\u2019s the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill, and, essentially, as we\u2019ve heard so far, there\u2019s a justice gap that this bill will indeed fill. I would like to say, let\u2019s fill that justice gap. Let\u2019s get this bill rolling, and, with that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022da5dfa762e2b41febb1f20659aae6db1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da5dfa762e2b41febb1f20659aae6db1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s really no excuse for any Justice Committee members to get themselves into mischief, is there? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022816c25aa5fdb45708fa18087f1d3cc95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022816c25aa5fdb45708fa18087f1d3cc95\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the chance to make a contribution on this Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill. As several people have noted, Labour, obviously, will be supporting this bill. It\u2019s a sensible, small piece of potential legislation that makes a difference to real people who are going through a disputes process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill, as has been said, simply raises the cap from $30,000 to $60,000 on the awards that the Disputes Tribunal can make. As has also been said, it\u2019s a really important way, therefore, to make that justice and that recompense accessible to people, because for a lot of people, their only experience of the justice system is through a disputes process. For people to have faith in the system as a whole, they want to be able to seek that redress in a way that makes sense and that is efficient, cost-effective, and doesn\u2019t do more harm than good, so to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAt the moment, the fee of $59, as I said, therefore does make it accessible. I think many of us on this in this House possibly have experience of going through a Disputes Tribunal or know of people that something has happened\u2014whether it be the Tenancy Tribunal for some people, but the Disputes Tribunal in this case\u2014where people have sought to get what\u2019s owing to them or sought to right a wrong that has happened. It\u2019s incredibly stressful and it\u2019s something that you have to do yourself and it\u2019s something that you have to take the\u00A0lead on. There\u2019s a lot of unfamiliar language; there\u2019s a lot of unfamiliar process. Anything we can do to make that better is good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe bill will mean that losing parties in the tribunal will also have to pay the cost of that filing back fee to the applicant. I note that when the claim is between $30,000 and $60,000, that fee is significantly higher. I suppose that is with an eye to preventing frivolous claims, so that people will think twice about pursuing claims that are frivolous, particularly, you can imagine, when there\u2019s a power imbalance and it may just be they think it\u2019s worth their while to do so. If that had to be paid for, then, if they were to lose, that kind of evens up that process a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not a perfect bill in so far as\u2014I think someone said earlier on\u2014it\u2019s a little bit of a missed opportunity perhaps to have done a couple of things differently. There are a number of issues with the bill, but nothing that couldn\u2019t be sorted out through the select committee process, and I\u2019m sure it will be there. If I remember correctly, I think the Hon Dr Duncan Webb said earlier about there not being the right of appeal, which obviously is an important part of any process and should be no less important in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t increase the cap to the level that had been suggested by that Rules Committee recommendation, which of course is the impetus for this and where it comes from, but, as Helen White has just talked about, where is the happy balance between that cap being too high and not high enough? All things that can be discussed during the select committee process, and hopefully there will be some submissions and hopefully we will have some scenarios and some stories to sort of flesh out some of the pragmatics around this bill. There is a need to balance the benefits of what is a quick, cheap, and cheerful sort of informal justice process with something that could be a little bit more robust; and the ability to correct error, as I said, with a potential of an appeal rights process through the courts. I think that will be quite interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs I said, the bill in itself is simple; it stems from some recommendations and so has already come from a relatively good place in terms of process. Labour commends this bill to the House and we look forward to the Justice Committee doing its thing and reporting back in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u0022178450cb277e4dacb3f9c16aeb13cf33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022178450cb277e4dacb3f9c16aeb13cf33\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E It falls to me again to wrap up this first reading on the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill, the 27th bill that will go to the Justice Committee. Now, 27 isn\u2019t so good in Hollywood or if you\u2019re a pop star, but it will be a lucky number here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EAs we know, at present, people can pursue disputes about claims of up to $30,000 in the tribunal, and this bill, as others have canvassed, would amend the Act to increase that amount to $60,000. I look forward to the submissions, and I look forward to the discussions. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a1f81e9710fc4600a0cd5d839b360ddb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000539\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8a48e01b22f491a93f7bcec3e658739\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8a48e01b22f491a93f7bcec3e658739\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e53a426555e14d6dba8c4671bcd5ef3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e53a426555e14d6dba8c4671bcd5ef3d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for the consideration of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2) and the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1a309c4e4704d11aa7a3960c52aab48\u0022\u003EHOUSE IN COMMITTEE\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad5381ab20c143b48275801cf1e12b0d\u0022\u003EHOUSE IN COMMITTEE\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002245aad065f6384f90a512060c878564fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245aad065f6384f90a512060c878564fc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee for the consideration of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2) and the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227259de1b7d16407a803a0a6d99322ec2\u0022\u003ESmokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e02ee29c4aad40c8a367e9f238b0e6bd\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022face92944d7f46f6a1a6619c37cfcd68\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2363cd1de484734a7da5d198826a3ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2363cd1de484734a7da5d198826a3ef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We begin with the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2). We come first to Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 4 to 24, \u201CAmendments to principal Act\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002263311e092e2d42899a47705869f26f5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263311e092e2d42899a47705869f26f5d\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Labour will support this bill, but we do have quite a few questions for the Minister based on what we think is a pretty rushed process. We want to understand from the Minister the timing and some of what we consider to be shortcuts that were taken through the process, which is evident in some of the supporting documentation, but we also want to just understand what the thinking was behind the bill in terms of missing an opportunity to really resolve this problem or make some headway around youth vaping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll preface my comments with an article that\u2019s just come out from Radio New Zealand, which looks at smoking and vaping rates over the last year. There are a number of interesting statistics in it, and the reason that I mentioned these two things together is because we\u2019ve been repeatedly told in the Health Committee and throughout this process that vaping is of benefit because it stops people from smoking. We very much in the Health Committee see that lens coming through from the Ministry of Health, but of the\u00A0statistics that came up in this Radio New Zealand story, there\u2019s one that says, \u201CDaily vaping has increased more quickly in younger age groups, especially those aged 15-17 and 18-24 years. Increases in daily vaping in these age groups exceed decreases in daily smoking\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s a pretty interesting observation and statistic, because we\u2019re continually being fed this line that we need to get a balance right between helping smokers come off vapes and making sure young people don\u2019t pick up vaping, and it\u2019s been given to us in that order. If we actually look at the bill in front of us and we look at the introduction on the commentary from the Health Committee, and the policy reason actually in the departmental disclosure, the first priority seems to be about taking smokers off smoking, and the second priority seems to be about young people not vaping. I\u2019m not quite sure that that seems to have the priorities in the right order, because this article from Radio New Zealand shows that there has been a significant increase in vaping that continues the trajectory that we\u2019ve seen over a number of years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ECertainly, twice now in this House, I\u2019ve alluded to a graph that was shown to us by Professor Hoek from one of the NGOs and the university, looking at how New Zealand fares in our vaping rates compared to comparable countries. I think we had America around 6 or 7 percent and the UK around 10 percent, and then for young people in New Zealand, daily vaping was up at around 17 percent. This story from Radio New Zealand doesn\u2019t do anything to negate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI understand, and anticipate, the Minister will say this is a good reason why we need this bill, and we would agree that some things are needed, but it is such a massive problem that the feeling on this side is that we really didn\u2019t go far enough. We will be looking at questions of process and also asking some questions around why certain things were deemed out of scope. When we look at the regulatory impact statements (RIS)\u2014there\u2019s a couple of different regulatory impact statements\u2014one of them relates to visibility and one of them relates to the other matters that are considered in this bill, but there is also evidence to show it\u2019s not just visibility that seems to impact young people\u2019s decision to vape, particularly in the New Zealand context. The RIS quote extensively from overseas research, including the\u00A0UK, and they make assumptions around the New Zealand environment, in my view, based on that. Yet, when we look at what we do have in New Zealand for research, there are things around curiosity of vaping and also flavours and the attractiveness of flavours that seem to have a bearing on young people\u2019s decision to vape that are not mentioned in the UK legislation and yet don\u2019t seem to have been responded to in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe questions that we will have will be: why the truncated process, why the very restrictive bill\u2014which the regulatory impact statements acknowledge is restrictive and therefore deems many things out of scope\u2014when there was an opportunity to do something much more ambitious? We\u2019ve heard from the Minister that she\u2019s planning to bring some new legislation into the House next year, and the question this begs is: why has it been separated out? There were many people who would have wanted to submit in the very short time frame that was had. There was consultation that was not had that the RIS mentions\u2014with M\u0101ori groups in particular, even though it states that M\u0101ori would have a very significant interest in this due to the high vaping rates. Our questions will be around why this has been truncated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00224d653d29ce204e1ab4ea35e49a45597f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d653d29ce204e1ab4ea35e49a45597f\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do thank the member for the questions. I think, as you\u2019ve outlined, we have a process here where we are trying to rectify\u2014literally closing the door after the horse has bolted. We recognise fully that there was a lot of work that needed to be done in this space. The truncated process\u2014and I appreciate that\u2019s going to be a lot of discussion through the course of tonight\u2014was to meet a commitment to get something up and running before the end of the year, this year. That was the real focus about doing some piece of work so that we could address the vaping situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that there has been a really unfortunate narrative that has been around this vaping space\u2014that, somehow, when we were talking about vaping, we were talking about the situation where it was safer. Unfortunately, I think that the language got away, and we ended up with it being discussed as if it was safe. That\u2019s where I think we really broke the gates in terms of too much take-up in young people. This is, as the member has mentioned, a\u00A0first tranche of work, and it\u2019s about trying to get some framework in place as soon as possible. It was that compromise, and I appreciate\u2014more haste, less speed\u2014that it\u2019s not the perfect solution. It is a process that we want to work through, and we will continue to engage in this language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important, when we talk about vaping and its tool, we don\u2019t ignore the impact, and you can see in the graphs that have been referred to numerous times that we did see a massive drop in smoking rates from about 2018. The differential that occurred, at that point, was that vaping had hit the markets, and we started ending up with a much higher drop-off of smoking than we had seen previously. We\u2019re not, by any means, suggesting that this is a way of promoting vaping as a solution for young people. That\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re trying to prevent. We\u2019re trying to ensure that under this vaping environment, we send clear messages that it is not for young people. We don\u2019t want young people to vape, and we will continue to push on that language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re doing a piece of work that we\u2019re very keen to make sure has some tighter controls in place by the end of the year. There is further work coming, and there is further opportunity to do more in this space, but there is no denying that vaping is a less harmful product for smokers, and, therefore, we recognise it as a tool that has contributed to the smoking drop-off that we\u2019ve seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EOf encouragement, in the health survey results, something we did notice was that, in one of the figures that was referenced, the 15- to 17-year-old vaping rates last year were 15.4 percent, and they\u2019re down to 10.5 percent, which is, again, way too high, but it is encouraging to see that we are starting to shift the narrative. There\u2019s much more work to do in this space, though. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002244c9fb6f89f7481fb82701b727022539\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244c9fb6f89f7481fb82701b727022539\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The committee will resume at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9b3cb4775464a9784cd9951c17169b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9b3cb4775464a9784cd9951c17169b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Right, members, the sitting is resumed. The House is in committee for consideration of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2) and the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. We have just begun consideration of Part 1 of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2). The question before the committee is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022c91b5b0b425b4257840516afebc20327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c91b5b0b425b4257840516afebc20327\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Now, before we broke for dinner, one of my colleagues from the Labour Party was talking about the broader context of this bill, and also in terms of the truncated select committee process. I think other people would like to contribute to that as well. I think, from my perspective, I would like to start sort of almost line by line. That way I can structure it in a very systematic format. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would like to get some clarification from the Minister on clause 4, particularly around the addition of the use of the disposable vaping device. Now, from the select committee process, one of the things we did hear\u2014well, I say \u201Cwe\u201D; one of the things the Health Committee heard\u2014during that process is that it may have unintended consequences in limiting certain elements of this, which is one of the reasons why the amended version has been changed from \u201Cproduct\u201D to \u201Cdevice\u201D; also, with some clarifications around the definition of a vaping device.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, I would like to get some clarification from the Minister around subclause (a) to start with, and particularly when we\u2019re talking about \u201Cto be refilled by the user with a vaping substance or by using a pod, cartridge, or similar storage [containers]\u201D. This is something that\u2019s a little bit different from the previous version, which has been crossed out. In this case, I wondered if the Minister has considered that \u201Csimilar storage container\u201D is sufficient to address the rapid changes that vaping devices might take into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFor example, in the crossed-out version there was no mention of pods or cartridges, but instead talking about \u201Cpre-filled with \u2026 vaping substance \u2026 designed to be fitted into a vaping [substance] \u2026 and \u2026 not designed to be refilled\u201D. I would argue that \u201Cdesigned to be fitted into a vaping device\u201D is much broader as a criteria than having those specific criteria of \u201Cpod, cartridge, or similar storage container\u201D. I was not, I think, a part of this part of the Health Committee when it was discussing the amendments and the updates, so I would like some clarification from the Minister on whether she thinks that this would capture everything in terms of the refill component, by this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAlso, looking at this, I want to briefly mention\u2014and want some advice on from the Minister\u2014one of semantics. It\u2019s around the use of the preposition \u201Cby\u201D. In this case, in the first part when we\u2019re looking at refill by the user and then \u201Cby using a pod\u201D, I think I just want some clarifications in terms of that it only captures the single-use element that I think was the intention of this bill. I guess the main question for the Minister is around what was the change, why was there a change into \u201Cpod, cartridge, or similar [containers]\u201D, when previously I think \u201Cdesigned to be fitted into a vaping device\u201D is much broader and captures more possibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e949483fa55d489b9a00ce3ed3bf62bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e949483fa55d489b9a00ce3ed3bf62bc\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019d just respond to the member, just to reflect: so, when the bill was put forward, we did approach it on a very, you know\u2014to get rid of disposable vapes completely. That was the challenge, which is what we were trying to do\u2014get rid of the devices that were most commonly used by young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWhat happened in the select committee process\u2014and overwhelmingly the submitters reflected that\u2014was it would have had some unintended consequences, as the member has referred to, which was that we needed to balance that we were not going to end up with smokers going back to smoking because the vaping device that they used and relied on are most commonly used by those who had quit smoking. There was a balance struck there around ensuring that the devices that were commonly used\u2014not used by young people, but not commonly used by those who had transitioned away from smoking and were relying on vaping. There was a balance that was struck there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe member has also touched on the truncated process, and I think that question has been raised before. As I said earlier, this was about trying to ensure that we got something in as quickly as possible, because there was a lot of pressure around this vaping environment and getting it away from young people. The reason for this legislation being truncated was so that we could get something in before the summer and get this in place. There\u2019s still going to be a lead-in time for these product changes. As soon as we can get the legislation in, we can move forward on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3ce9903c0c740a2ae71df20368fcf4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3ce9903c0c740a2ae71df20368fcf4d\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019d like to pick up on the comments from the Green member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan around the time frames and also the two regulatory impact statements (RIS) that were done. There are a number of areas in there where they talk about the constrained time frames and also, in some ways, the process being a little bit reversed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EOn page 3 of the August RIS, it talks about the constraint of analysis because Cabinet had already made decisions. My first question is: why had the Associate Minister of Health, the Hon Casey Costello, made decisions\u2014and why had Cabinet made decisions\u2014prior to the second regulatory impact statement being made? That seems to be a little bit the wrong way round. Also, the lack of consultation in the time frames in which the policy proposals were considered and agreed by the Government did not allow for consultation beyond governmental agencies, and this was itself limited. Then, the RIS talks about the select committee process providing an opportunity for public consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIf I marry that, then, with the first regulatory impact statement, and the second one, there is in there quite a detailed analysis around those ideas of vaping products\u2014how broad or narrow the constraints should be. It was never in the RIS that single-use vapes using pods would be an exception, and yet we had many, many submissions saying this was really important for a number of reasons\u2014one was around child poisoning and children getting hold of refillable containers and poisoning themselves. There were also news items from overseas where there was some kind of YouTube craze where people were trying to create their own refillable pods and ended up poisoning themselves. Then there was also the other unintended consequence around preventing people from being able to access vapes if they were trying to give up smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy question is really just following on from the Green member\u2019s: why was the exception that the Health Committee came to\u2014pretty quickly and pretty unanimously, and that reflected the majority of the submissions to us\u2014not even an option in the regulatory impact statement? Was there not enough information? Was there not enough consultation? Were we relying too much on evidence coming from overseas? It seemed to me very apparent that a lot of the research that was being relied on came from overseas, and, in fact, the regulatory impact statement says this best marries with the experience of Australia and the UK. We\u2019re able to come to that conclusion pretty quickly and pretty unanimously, and yet it wasn\u2019t in the official advice. That gives me some alarm bells and some red flags, particularly given the RIS very specifically mentioning the limitations and constraints on analysis and also the fact that Cabinet had already made decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe Minister said earlier, in her response to my question\u2014which I appreciate\u2014when I was talking about truncated time frames, something about wanting to get something in the House before Christmas, and she has again alluded to pressure on the sector. However, the overwhelming sentiment from people who have submitted to the Health Committee outside of the submission process, simply on vaping in general and then again in the submissions, was that we need to do this properly. We\u2019re talking about substances here that are consumed into the human body, into the tinana. This is not something we take lightly. In fact, there is other legislation\u2014for example, if it was around alcohol or drugs\u2014where this would be a conscience vote. I\u2019m really curious to know what is the importance of the Christmas deadline for getting what appears to be kind of half the legislation through the House, so that we can better understand the urgency. Already we\u2019re seeing red flags in the advice that was given by officials, and I don\u2019t think that bodes well for good lawmaking. If the Minister could answer\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00220a7dad6990e64f3b86dd1d1cfc47ea7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a7dad6990e64f3b86dd1d1cfc47ea7c\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would like to ask a couple of questions, probably in a very similar vein. When the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Casey Costello first responded to the first question, she, again, as has just been said, mentioned in response to the question about the truncated process that it was really important to get something up by the end of the year. In a slightly different take on that, but, certainly, still with regard to unintended consequences, I just wonder if the Minister can give us a little bit more information, or step us through, what has been her thinking or what her intention is in so far as that tranche two? Often, as we\u2019ve just heard, and we\u2019ve heard through the select committee process, there\u2019s always some unintended consequences, be they big ones, be they small ones, be they things that can be resolved, or be they things that make things worse than if you had not done anything to start with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EA couple of things\u2014and it is just a couple of things\u2014really, we don\u2019t think that this goes far enough. But, with the measures that are here, has there been any work done by officials or by the Minister to look at the half step, the halfway position, to get something done by the end of the year, and whether that impacts on the efficacy of the tranche two measures\u2014whether there\u2019s anything to sort of suggest that, particularly in relation to the wholly disposable versus the pod situation? Young people will always adapt\u2014it\u2019s an arms race, isn\u2019t it?\u2014and they will want what\u2019s popular now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EMy second question is: can the Minister give us any more detail or any more information exactly about the proportions or the popularity sort of statistics between the single-use disposable vapes versus the pods in that age group? If the first tranche comes in and young people\u2014who are by definition addicted to the nicotine that they\u2019ve been getting through these devices\u2014then choose a different modality, does this first tranche in this bill keep pace with how those habits will change in time for the second tranche not to be already behind the eight ball? If the Minister could just give us a little bit more information about that. Given it\u2019s a specific, intentional decision to get something done before Christmas, I\u2019m assuming that there were these measures that were sectioned off from a larger plan. Can she tell us a little bit more about why the line was drawn here and this was called tranche one, and what tranche two will do, and how those two things interact? That would be much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI have some more questions, but I\u2019ll move on for now because they tend to have a slightly different purpose. Just to give the Minister some notice of where we might go after this, I certainly would like to know some more information about\u2014because the purpose of this bill was to reduce access, and by definition that has been operationalised as reducing visibility, I think there\u2019s several questions, and my colleague Ingrid Leary has alluded to this, in so far as the research that\u2019s been relied upon to make those assumptions. Those first two questions would be much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcae8aa194cf46609d26a513fcd2d4f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcae8aa194cf46609d26a513fcd2d4f8\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Just in terms of the member\u2019s earlier question regarding the regulatory impact statement (RIS) report\u2014the option two around the narrowly defined scope\u2014that was in the RIS, so that has been referenced in this discussion. The other part\u2014and I know we\u2019ve talked about this truncated process\u2014to clarify: this was about ensuring that there was movement and we were moving forward in this space because of the high level of concern, as has been elucidated in this Chamber today, around youth vaping. We were looking at some solutions that we could get through. To suggest there hasn\u2019t been an opportunity there\u2014this topic has been a subject of significant debate over a period of time, so there was a lot of knowledge that already existed in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWe talked a little bit about the devices, and we\u2019ve talked a lot about the devices and the types of devices and stuff. I think it\u2019s important to note that the device component of this is one part of the legislation, which is about reducing access. I think it\u2019s important that we kind of keep focused on the bill that\u2019s before the committee today, around dealing with what\u2019s before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EAgain, the truncated process\u2014I\u2019m not sure how many ways I can express it\u2014I appreciate there was concern, but there was a high level of interest by those who were dealing with kids\u00A0that were accessing vaping. There\u2019s a suite of responses in this space and around the types of devices. We relied on not only what was put forward but we also relied on the Justice Committee recommendations, which was where we\u2019ve ended up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022e44fe38c0894420c90f39b60ff91e8df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e44fe38c0894420c90f39b60ff91e8df\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00226616cb56ecdc427a983ebb2f809715d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226616cb56ecdc427a983ebb2f809715d1\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Chair. It\u2019s my first contribution on this bill. I note, Minister, that the select committee has made a number of changes to clause 4(a) that relate to, basically, extending out the definition, which I understand. My first question is\u2014it relates to clauses 4(a) and (b)\u2014there is a specific use of the word \u201Cdesigned\u201D. I know that was in the original part of clause 4 as well. My question is around where modifications sit within that definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne assumes that it\u2019s either as a descriptor at the point of importation or the point of sale; that there could be a device\u2014what appears to be formally known as a \u201Cproduct\u201D, but in this circumstance a \u201Cdevice\u201D\u2014that is not designed to be recharged, for example, or not designed to be refilled with a particular substance. Where in that particular scope of things do modifications sit? Or is that something where, once the device itself has made its way to the consumer, or wherever it might end up, actually, that\u2019s not a valid consideration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt just seems to me that the alternative would be that, for example, the device is not able to be recharged\u2014whereas, what\u2019s changed here is it\u2019s talking about the design process. My first question is around that: is it around the point of sale? Is it around the point of importation? If it is importation, where does the responsibility for modifications sit within that? I guess, flowing on from that is whether or not the Minister is confident that, as it is currently worded, it would capture what it\u2019s intended to capture. It may be that that is the case, but some clarity around that would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy other question does derive from the regulatory impact statement (RIS), and it relates to what has been identified as legally privileged information but is before the committee at paragraph 69. This is the section that relates to implications around any international trade obligations that New Zealand might have. My question is just around the ease and cost of implementation, which is contained in the matrix within the RIS, whether the Minister can inform the committee around what particular international trade obligations are engaged\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ca82b7c5c45479a8eec0a1d44599ee7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member just repeat that\u2014what the reference is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c60d8e6dbfc4d5eaf3c27a06bd038e9\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It\u2019s in the RIS and it\u2019s on page 15, paragraph 69. Actually, it\u2019s the whole section that relates to the former options, but the particular information that appears to be legally privileged but has been provided is at paragraph 69. My question for the Minister is just around whether there are any particular international trade obligations that are engaged or not as a result of the Government\u2019s preferred approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002268d4d000ec8c42a9b83b4c66737a28e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268d4d000ec8c42a9b83b4c66737a28e4\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is my first opportunity to contribute to this bill at the committee stage, although I was lucky enough to be able to make a contribution in an earlier reading. I was not on the Health Committee that examined this bill, but I have had an opportunity now, at the last reading and at this committee stage, to look at some of the changes made by the select committee. I have a few questions for the Minister around some of those changes and also some of the other changes to the bill that were there prior to the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThis is certainly not an area that I\u2019m an expert in, but it might be quite straightforward for the Minister to answer some of those questions that I have in Part 1. I will reiterate briefly comments made by colleagues in previous readings who didn\u2019t agree this bill goes far enough. I am looking, really, for quite technical, I suppose, answers to some of these questions, but that\u2019s kind of the overall thrust of this bill\u2014and noting, obviously, the consultation and truncated elements of it that are in the departmental disclosure statement as well as on the regulatory impact statement documents, which others have mentioned, and the lack of, specifically, consultation with M\u0101ori. I just wanted to note that. If the Minister wanted to comment, that would be fine\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMy specific questions are relating to Part 1. In Part 1, we have clause 8(2).This clause replaces section 20P(2)(c) with the\u00A0(c) that follows, and it states that \u201Cthe applicant understands its obligations under this Act\u201D. I wanted to know how the Minister envisaged that that would be quantified to reach the level of understanding to comply with the section that was there before the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMy next question is relating to a specific change made by the select committee. In clause 12(1), new subsection (4A), the select committee has added in something which, I imagine, was to avoid a particular type of mischief, as lawyers tend to call things that they want to avoid under an Act, and that is to specifically add, after section 25(4), \u201CTo avoid doubt, subsection (4) does not permit publication on an Internet site of a link to a regulated product advertisement \u2026\u201D. I wondered if the Minister could inform the committee of the particular issue that that new subsection added by the select committee was to avoid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe next question I have is in relation to Part 1\u2014again, in clause 14, new subsection (3B). This is, I think, having read the select committee\u2019s report, a specific change that was added, as I understand, as a result of submissions, and that is, in (3B), \u201CA specialist vape retailer must not display a vaping product or its packaging in a way that makes it visible from outside their place of business.\u201D Now, I don\u2019t vape, I don\u2019t purchase vapes, but I am aware of vape retailers in my local area. One vape retailer that I\u2019m thinking of has its door open all the time, and because its door is open, you are able to see the products that they sell there. Obviously, if the door is closed, you can\u2019t see them. Would that specific example be covered by this change by the select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI understand the reason for it is\u2014and there\u2019s quite a detailed explanation of why the select committee thought that this was important and why this change was made\u2014but where is the line, really, with the displaying of their packaging? Is it a requirement that they must never be visible at any time, or is it just simply displaying in a form of advertising which would possibly be visible when the door is open but otherwise would be compliant? That\u2019s just a question around the extent of that, and I think it\u2019s important to get these details clear for retailers prior to the progress of this bill, so that they are able to comply with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe other question\u2014and the last question\u2014that I have for the Minister, if I have time, is in relation to new section 62, under clause 18, and it\u2019s going to be replaced with \u201CPre-notification requirements\u201D. That specifically refers to regulations. I understand that it\u2019s the regulations that are in Part 2, which we\u2019re not talking about at the moment, but that is referred to in clause 18, which refers to new section 62. I just wondered if the Minister had thought about making that more specific so it was clear that it was indeed the regulations in Part 2 that they were referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00221111c33f260643ce8392e5e1dd8164f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221111c33f260643ce8392e5e1dd8164f5\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her contribution, and I\u2019ll try and work backwards a little bit. I\u2019ll get some more advice around the pre-notification requirements that you mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe display component: there was quite a lot, from my understanding, within the Health Committee. The driver behind this was, I suppose, as you mentioned, that it has become very attractive to young people, the way the stores are set up. We also were cognisant around the submissions about the risk of being opaque and behind closed doors\u2014the potential for generating crime risk around that. It was balancing the ability, and the language was changed to demonstrate that this was about not being visible to children. If you have open doors, then the product cannot be visible\u2014so how they choose to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EInternet links were something that was raised, again through the select committee process. We were stopping the ability to display the product online but the concern was raised that you could then create a link to an international website. The discussion around it was that it would circumvent that discussion\u2014that you were, basically, taking it off the site, but you could link through to another site. It was a way of trying to address, again, not being able to make it visible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EIn terms of the trade implications, there was some discussion over trade implications. The battery component was the area that was of concern. I think that has been addressed through this process of ensuring that there\u2014the level of risk around the trade implications, that\u2019s the response that I can give on that component.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI think there was an earlier question regarding the modifications of the devices: after point of sale, when they\u2019re modified, how is that done? I think the control that we\u2019ve got in place is for what we\u2019re selling; what happens once that device is purchased is beyond what we can deal with. I think it\u2019s important that, when we talk about vaping, we\u2019re looking at a process of not just enforcement but also talking about supporting this programme of work around education and awareness and changing the way we view vaping. That was where I think we drove a lot of the discussion around not having visibility, because that was that risk that we had\u2014that it had become very attractive, the way the stores were set up and the way they were displayed. We were trying to get some balance in the way it was being seen as something very attractive and interesting\u2014to take it out of front of mind. That was where we\u2019re at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00224e3deef8401842e7b04effdac0626def\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e3deef8401842e7b04effdac0626def\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to take a call on this part of the legislation and really inquire with the Minister in terms of\u2014we\u2019ve explored, our colleagues have explored, in terms of the lack of consultation, also the narrow scope, and the absence of data to inform what was a rushed process. In terms of disposables and also compliance\u2014if we can explore the compliance of our vape stores across the country, whether they are general vape stores or specialists. Where are we at as we push towards Christmas? Where are we at in terms of both knowing the data of what stores are in what communities, and then what staff do we have available to help with the compliance in this space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EKnowing that certainly we heard from submitters\u2014and I go back to some of the M\u0101ori submitters that raised their support for the impact of youth vaping in our communities, but also how do we get stronger in the non-compliance space? While we might attach a fine to the stores or in regards to their non-compliance for the legislation, how do we even know that they are non-compliant? Knowing that we have limited resource on the ground right now\u2014and I think about Tai Tokerau and our enforcement officers\u2014there has been k\u014Drero for some time that we were going to increase the numbers of officers. Where are we at in terms of that capacity as we gear ourselves up for this Christmas launch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EOf course, we are supportive of the legislation and the trajectory and the journey where we are heading in terms of strengthening the protections for young smokers and particularly in the vape space, but also we need a system and we need the many cogs in the public health service to be ready to implement the legislation when it comes into effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWe heard from submitters also in local government, and local governments spoke to their desire to be strengthened in this space in terms of the stores that they have in their communities, their abilities to apply the by-laws in their local communities, but also be resourced in the space of compliance. So these are questions generally for the Minister in terms of our readiness. What does that look like so far? Do we know the numbers of stores\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0f138b5130644c8ad9dbf97ccd1ceb7\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chair. The purpose of this is to ask questions about the bill. It\u2019s not general questions, as that member has just stated, that are outside the scope of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223413a62df37146febd77b12f7ae9adf4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e1d2ad4a12416c9869ab67999d7896\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is relevance. It\u2019s not relevant to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d31d68e0580467aa7669c5016d9fac7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: And I will determine relevancy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e9d0d183a08443193247004f9b538bb\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I was just raising it as a concern. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f281ec232fe45bba005aefb4cc901ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fffef8a023645bd9d8493e5e3cd5690\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: If I could complete my k\u014Drero, I\u2019ll go back to the sale, manufacture, supply, and distribution of the vapes in our communities\u2014these devices. This is a question around the distribution of those stores. Do we know enough about what\u2019s in our community, first of all, because we haven\u2019t really looked at the data?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThen, further, is our system ready for launch, and what do our numbers look like in terms of resourcing the system to give effect to this legislation? This is all about enforcement. This is making sure that we\u2019re able to fine those who will breach the legislation and that we will have the relevant staff in each of our communities\u2014and even local government might even be considered for resourcing because they did ask for that\u2014in terms of how we implement and get ready to support this legislation to be as effective as possible. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00227e8310e769904bed8ec72f05c31093a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e8310e769904bed8ec72f05c31093a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, just reflecting on comments made, we have traversed a bit around time frames and, of course, the importance of Christmas just around the corner as well. With further contributions, I do want members to be mindful of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022a65eb7cc77ab4f8496f731b0e2e3f64e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a65eb7cc77ab4f8496f731b0e2e3f64e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think the point that was raised already by my colleague H\u016Bhana Lyndon is a really important one, and it would be good to get clarification from the Minister in the context of clause 6 of the bill on the enforceability of this. But what I want to pick up on are a few things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first thing is what the Minister mentioned before. Thank you, Minister, for responding to my question around clause 4 before, but I guess one of the things I am slightly puzzled by is the fact that submitters have mentioned that there might be unintended consequences if the scope is too broad, and that way it\u2019s not going to allow people to have alternatives to switch from smoking into vaping. One would assume that since this bill only covers the use of disposable vaping devices and not non-disposable\u2014I stated very clearly, in clause 4, that anything that has the unintended consequence of not being captured would simply allow people to transition into using potentially non-disposable and rechargeable and refillable devices instead. I\u2019m still a little bit puzzled as to why we need to have the level of specificity that we\u2019re seeing in section 2(1)(a), in clause 4 of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESomething else that our colleague from Labour Tangi Utikere mentioned is something else in terms of the regulatory impact statement, which I also want to pick up on from a trade perspective, particularly with the phrasing of paragraphs 69 and 70 of the regulatory impact statement. It does raise a little bit of alarm bells in terms of whether the Minister has had any consultation from either the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade or any other agencies around the use of investor-State dispute settlement (ISDS) process. Is there going to be any part of this that is going to be considered here? The way that I\u2019m reading paragraphs 69 and 70 of the regulatory impact statement is that we have to almost justify to companies that we\u2019re not going to disadvantage them and that it is for the health of our people in Aotearoa, otherwise they might take additional actions. To me, that sounds like an ISDS thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EClarification from the Minister would be great, because that would potentially be an example of us actually prioritising the interests of overseas tobacco or vaping companies and batteries over the health of our own people, which may also in this case justify one of the reasons why we thought non-disposable, rechargeable, and refillable vaping products weren\u2019t banned in this bill and why it wasn\u2019t going as far. That potentially does answer that, but I\u2019m not sure, so advice from the Minister would be appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThere are still quite a few different components to Part 1 of this bill that I would like to address, but one of the things I want to address next is around the fine and what is going to become an offence. This is both in terms of new section 20FA, inserted by clause\u00A07, as well as clause 15. Now, in the regulatory impact statement, on paragraph 22, it talks about the existing offence and the existing fine structure, and there is a two-tier structure between a body corporate and what it is in other instances. What we\u2019re seeing in clause 15 is that what is going to be the fine for corporates will be increased from $10,000 to $100,000 and what it is going to be for other cases has increased from $5,000 to $10,000. This is to do with the sale of regulated products to under-18s, and the increase, potentially, is a way of deterrent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI get that, but the question I then have for the Minister is that I also want some clarification from the Minister, or potentially officials, on why, in new section 20FA(2), inserted by clause 7, the fine for persons without reasonable excuse to sell or distribute disposable vaping devices is so extreme. In many ways, it is so much more than any other fine structure we have seen and any other fine structure we\u2019ve seen in other parts of the principal Act. In this case, you see that, for a notifier or a large retailer, the fine is $400,000 and, for other people, it\u2019s $50,000. That\u2019s way more than selling it to a minor. If the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying that point as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u002204654194c3014dd6a1d084d1d4c7c76d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204654194c3014dd6a1d084d1d4c7c76d\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I can assure the member that there have been discussions with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT). I don\u2019t think it\u2019s appropriate to talk about legally privileged advice in this forum, but the discussions with MFAT provide us assurance that we were not going to incur any further issues with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI think we\u2019re getting a bit grey around the disposable devices versus the devices that we\u2014so, again, I\u2019d reiterate, what we were talking about were the devices most commonly used by young people, and that was the assessment and the evaluation, the advice that was given, which is why the legislation was written as it was and then, through the process, was addressing that we ensured that there were the vaping devices that were being used most commonly by those that had quit smoking and were relying on them as a pathway to being smoke-free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve talked a lot about the enforcement and the future state. I mean, the bill is very clear that we\u2019re talking about increasing the penalties so that we have a level of deterrence. So the different penalties, if you work through the different offences\u2014the reason there was a higher penalty for a larger organisation is that we needed to ensure that there were penalties in place that acted as a clear deterrent. I agree fully that the enforcement component is a really key part of this once this legislation comes into force. We want to ensure that there is strong compliance, and the penalty component was the driver behind this, to ensure that the penalties are a suitable deterrent from selling to minors and breaching this legislation overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00229232cb82376b401d9be1f1125a3a67e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229232cb82376b401d9be1f1125a3a67e7\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do want to reiterate that we are supportive of this legislation in general; however, there are some concerns that we want to open up. I certainly heard that the question about enforceability is an important one. My question relates to clause 4, \u201CSection 2 amended (Interpretation)\u201D. Amended section 2(1)(a) is really about the disposability of vapes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI think we all agree that smoking is a dirty habit and causes health issues, cancer, kills people way too early, and vaping may be a way for people to step away from a really bad, dangerous habit. If we look at paragraph (a), when we think about the disposability of vapes, I\u2019m interested that the Minister has said that what is beyond sale is not something that we deal with, because Government policy should really take into account all of the aspects of legislation and where it goes and what happens with disposable stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019m particularly interested because there is another burning question, and that is the waste to toxin to poison fast-track proposal to burn waste in Waimate. If we\u2019re thinking about what happens to the devices that are used and if we\u2019re not going to recycle them\u2014if we are simply going to have them as single-use\u2014why is the Government not willing to take care about what happens beyond sale? Why are we not thinking about lifecycle\u2014where this goes, what impact it makes on our other communities, on our farmers? That\u2019s where this goes. If we\u2019re thinking about waste and we\u2019re thinking about fast track, that\u2019s where it goes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe are thinking about particulates being burnt, spreading dioxins and other stuff\u2014we don\u2019t even know what\u2019s in these things\u2014over our rural communities in South Canterbury and in other places. My question to the Minister is: why are we not willing to consider what happens to disposable vapes beyond sale, and are we simply\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f96a8ba0ab849f297335bf4993bba61\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re banning them!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225ff47a02d474c09bb6b08f18d13e513\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Some of the heckling I get is that we are going to burn this stuff\u2014we\u2019re going to burn it even more and we\u2019re going to distribute it across rural Aotearoa and destroy our farming communities as well. There is something ironic in that, but my question to the Minister is about how we are going to deal with this holistically. How are we going to manage the waste that is coming from this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIt is a serious question, because we are in agreement with the legislation that we need to limit the risk to our health sector, to our community, but we also need to think about the consequences of legislation, the unintended consequences, that might lead to even greater risk to our communities, that might lead to more waste, that might lead to the fast-track destruction of our rural communities with poor legislation. We need to consider this. We need to consider this in a very clear\u2014well, to come back to my point, Minister: can we, please, have some understanding about what is going to happen beyond the sale of disposable vapes? Will we have some understanding of that? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1b9b5ed21da4c16912f7e0240caae08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1b9b5ed21da4c16912f7e0240caae08\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Scott Willis for his concerns. I\u2019d probably need to redirect you a wee bit back. Your colleague questioned what happened to a device that was then modified after it was purchased\u2014slightly different. When I said that we can\u2019t control what someone does with something they buy and how they modify it after they\u2019ve purchased it, your concern regarding disposable vapes is exactly the point of this legislation. It\u2019s to get rid of those single-use, disposable vapes. That is exactly the purpose of this bill, to get rid of that throwaway device, which, exactly as you said, has created a problem within the environment. This legislation, which I am pleased you are supporting, is exactly the point, and that\u2019s why we\u2019ve modified\u2014we were going to get rid of a much wider definition of disposable, but that was brought back through the select committee process. The purpose of this legislation is to get rid of exactly the product that you have expressed concerns about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u00225933b59e5d254b5cb8c4591234e24516\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225933b59e5d254b5cb8c4591234e24516\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc16c5ce82fe4ff1a2a3471feb29b412\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc16c5ce82fe4ff1a2a3471feb29b412\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would just have a short contribution to the Minister. This is to do with clause 14 and to do with the display of vaping products in shops. Now, understandably, after the select committee process there was a change, because one of the things that was changed was around display versus visibility. The submissions we heard from shops were that, if you were making it not visible from the outside, you would potentially create risk for people inside. Therefore, you have got change, and we see the addition of subsection (3B), through clause 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, considering that I\u2019m sure the Minister has visited many vaping shops, normally what you do see is they do have clear glass. Everything is visible from the outside and there are clear cabinets on the inside where all of the vapes are displayed. I want to get a very specific clarification from the Minister that, in the intention of new section 37(3B), in terms of \u201Cmust not display\u201D, what then would be the limit of that potential display? As in, is it a display of a clear window, and you are displaying it in the shop looking outside? Or does \u201Cdisplay\u201D have a much broader sense where none of the products should be available to be seen, at least made out to be seen, even through glass cabinets on the inside of the shop? I just want some clarification from the Minister regarding display. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00224598430581a24f3f9887265b0da6cebf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224598430581a24f3f9887265b0da6cebf\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I will address the question from the member, and I thank you for your concerns. The question we have is that we have two components: we have the specialist vaping stores and the general vaping stores. Someone under 18 can be inside a general vaping store, because they are able to be in there purchasing other things, so that was addressing that. The specialist vaping store\u2014and that\u2019s why we\u2019re working through a process of making some selections around how they choose to ensure that the product is not visible to those that are under 18. There\u2019s a variable there and some degree of flexibility. It\u2019s about whether it\u2019s covering what\u2019s in the cabinets or it\u2019s covering the store\u2014there is some flexibility around that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002263484abba68e42c2b973872b14b8f81c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263484abba68e42c2b973872b14b8f81c\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have some follow-up questions from points raised by my colleagues and also by the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Casey Costello herself. The first one is in relation to section 2(1) of the principal Act, amended by clause 4 of the bill, where it talks about disposable vaping, and the word \u201Cproduct\u201D is deleted and instead we have \u201Cdevice\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIf I look at the primary legislation, we\u2019ve got two definitions: one\u2019s a \u201Cvaping device\u201D and one\u2019s a \u201Cvaping product\u201D. The vaping product seems to incorporate a device. This is material when it comes to some of the definitions in the regulations, which is why I\u2019m asking the question. My first question is: I wonder if the Minister could, please, explain why when the change was made to having single-use pod vapes, the word \u201Cproduct\u201D was changed out for \u201Cdevice\u201D in that section and in subsequent subsections in 20FA of new Part 1AA, as well, inserted by clause 7 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy second question is in relation to the offences. I note that the Minister said that the reason for such a large jump in the change of fine was as a deterrent factor, and yet when I read the regulatory impact statement (RIS), in fact, it says the reason that there needs to be a much larger fine is to enable prosecutors to take a case that is cost-effective of taxpayers\u2019 money. I didn\u2019t see anything around deterrent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI do know that there is a body of evidence that says that one of the most important ways, in criminal law and in criminology, to ensure that people won\u2019t get caught is when they know that they are likely to get caught. I\u2019m sure the Minister with her past in the police service recognises that. I\u2019m really curious about her response to say that the deterrent factor was the primary driver of the change of fine when that is not mentioned in the RIS, and it\u2019s around the prosecution. We do know, in the Health Committee, that there have only been a couple of prosecutions\u2014I think one in the last year\u2014and that goes back to points raised previously by other members around the need for enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy third point is to do with clause 8 of the bill, \u201CSection 20P amended\u201D, with \u201Cthe retail premises in which the vaping products are or will be sold\u201D. We\u2019ve got \u201Cat least 300 metres from the boundary of a registered school\u201D, a marae, and we are adding early childhood centres, and we\u2019ve got at least 100 metres. I\u2019m wanting to understand why it is 100 metres in that case, and 300 metres in the other cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen I look at what the RIS says, it says, \u201CStudents of Pasifika origin were in general closer to [specialist vape stores] than European students. Some schools had up to 37 vape retailers within 1600m of schools and some of our most underserved communities had up to 7 vape retailers within 400m of the school.\u201D I\u2019m wondering how these particular places were landed on, because I can think of other areas where Pasifika, for example, would be very exposed to vape outlets, such as if they were in the vicinity of churches, in the vicinity of community halls. There are other communities\u2014disabled communities\u2014who equally would be more likely to be exposed to vapes in particular situations. I\u2019m keen to understand from the Minister why these three areas were landed on\u2014and early childhood, in particular, with the 100\u00A0metres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe other thing that was in the RIS was that the University of Canterbury did a study that showed there were up to seven more vape stores in more socio-economically deprived neighbourhoods. I wonder if any consideration was given to a graduated or a nuanced approach to areas that already have a proliferation of vape stores, because we have a bit of a one-size-fits-all currently, and there is no sinking lid but nor is there any taking into account, as far as I can see, those areas that have significantly higher numbers of vape stores where perhaps there could have been some policy consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that there\u2019s very scant research to come out of New Zealand, but one of the things that it does say in the RIS is that many young people are exposed to vapes and the provision of vapes through family members, and yet we have this big focus of the online scenario, which I understand may become a problem in the future, but currently accounts for very few vape purchases\u2014it\u2019s less than 10 percent; very, very few. What consideration was given to trying to mitigate the risk of young people getting vapes from family members, when considering this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u002247e7e1eb99584fa9ac5d6aeb1f02adea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247e7e1eb99584fa9ac5d6aeb1f02adea\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u002291d190ff88b14ee48f6cf49b5fea2331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291d190ff88b14ee48f6cf49b5fea2331\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the clarification sought. I think, when we go back to products versus device, if you go through the legislation, the motivation behind it was to clarify and provide some consistency across the legislation, as it had become pretty interchangeable. That was the reason for that change\u2014to bring consistency within the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI note that the regulatory impact statement referred to more efficiency around prosecution, but from a principle point of view, when we were talking about this legislation and when we were first looking at the issues around this space, the penalties were not representing a deterrent factor. I completely acknowledge the fact that that has to be accompanied by enforcement, and that is the whole reason for increasing these penalties\u2014to ensure there is a component of, you know, real concern if you get prosecuted and the penalties would align to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe 100 metres\u2014the early childhood education (ECE) stores\u2014and we fully acknowledge that there are too many vaping stores out there. This is the 100 metres for the ECE versus the 300 metres for the other proximity components\u2014this was really just the sheer volume of ECEs. If we pushed out to 300 metres, it was, you know, becoming pretty complex around the extent. It was assessed to bring it back to 100 metres\u2019 proximity because of the sheer volume of ECEs around the country. I do acknowledge the point of view around the fact that we have way too many vaping stores in the low socio-economic areas, which is the ones that incur the highest harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThis is a process that we\u2019ve talked about a lot, but within this legislation, this is the step forward that we\u2019re trying to take, which is ensuring that we get rid of the disposable vapes, that we increase the penalties, and we reduce the visibility. Even though the stores are there, if we can make them less visible and less in the face of our young people, that\u2019s the step in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00227e062bcc965b4d47bf57e3a7eaef6ea3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e062bcc965b4d47bf57e3a7eaef6ea3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to note, members, that we have traversed a lot of different issues. I am looking for new material, and I\u2019m looking for relevant material that is focused on the parts in question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00222490bd77062e4d31906f10f6c43e7223\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222490bd77062e4d31906f10f6c43e7223\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My question solely arises from what the Minister has just said. I\u2019ll ask a very short question, because I just want an actual answer. Given what the Minister\u2019s just said in relation to early childhood education (ECE) centres and, therefore, the 100-metre change, (a) it doesn\u2019t now feel as if choosing ECEs is really congruent to the age cohort that we\u2019re trying to reduce the visibility for, and (b) as the Minister has quite rightly explained, it was fraught with all sorts of considerations, because there\u2019s just so many of them that having a 300-metre limit would make it nonsensical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWas any other consideration made of other actual age-congruent, likely destinations and environments where this cohort of people actually do find themselves, like churches or halls or other things? It feels as if just another educational environment was just chucked into the mix to say that there\u2019s been an extension for the sake of it. Can she, please, provide us with any information about whether other venues, other contexts, and other environments were considered? It doesn\u2019t feel like this ECE one has really got much of anything behind it to justify it being included in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u002293e07eec8ca64b60af8eb8ecad0c2e64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293e07eec8ca64b60af8eb8ecad0c2e64\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. I think it\u2019s an important point that you\u2019ve raised around the proximity component. It was considered important. It was raised through the office and with the ministry around those concerns, because we were getting younger and younger vapers. I think the important thing is to balance this conversation around where they were with removing the visible displays, and the balance in this conversation was, rather than going down the path of all of the places that you could be approximately located, removing that level of display and the visual attractiveness of a lot of those vaping stores. That was where we ended, on the balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022034999def0a04b6fbab76d370d8b628f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022034999def0a04b6fbab76d370d8b628f\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I really appreciate the Minister continuing to engage with us. Her answers have been very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI have a few different matters. One of them relates to Te Tiriti, where in the regulatory impact statement (RIS) there is a statement around Te Tiriti, saying that strengthening the regulation of vapes to protect children and young people would demonstrate good Government within the context of the Treaty of Waitangi. I note that there was consultation with a number of Government agencies, but there was no consultation with M\u0101ori, in one of the RIS. The second RIS said that there was no consultation with M\u0101ori, and yet in the first RIS there is a reference to the consultation with M\u0101ori and some of the communities saying that they wanted to see less visibility. I\u2019d just like some clarification about whether there was in fact consultation with M\u0101ori groups, or was it confined to Government agencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy second point is that the highest number of young vapers appears to be young M\u0101ori women. I think it\u2019s around 20 percent. I\u2019ve got numerous pieces of paper here, but I note in the many, many Government agencies that were consulted, the Ministry for Women does not appear to have been. I think that\u2019s a shame, given that there is a particular cohort where a gender lens as well as a tangata whenua lens or a Treaty lens might be relevant in terms of coming up with reasons why the prevalence is higher and what some of the mitigations could be, so that we do have appropriate policy in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThen I also have a question around the CBAx, the cost-benefit analysis, because there\u2019s a number of references in both the regulatory impact statements to wanting to get the legislation right for all interested parties based on costs and benefits. Yet, when I look at the CBAx in the second one, which goes over a number of pages, interestingly\u2014if I look at the August document, pages 21 and 22\u2014it tries to make some findings about monetised and non-monetised costs and benefits to stakeholders, which includes regulated groups, regulators, Government consumers, and so on. For anyone who\u2019s watching at home, this is a pretty critical piece of analysis, because it is really trying to weigh up the different interests at stake and put a monetary value on them. I don\u2019t understand why we have a CBAx included when every entry in the second column says \u201CUncosted - (Medium)\u201D, \u201CUncosted\u201D, \u201CMedium\u201D, \u201CLow - uncosted\u201D. How can the veracity of this evidence be accepted when the CBAx is so lacking in evidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EAlso, if I go back to the departmental statement and some of the caveats around the quality of advice, it says that the RIS should be accepted, but there is a caveat around the quality of advice due to the time constraints, again. I\u2019m really curious to know from the Minister how reliable she thinks the cost-benefit analysis is and whether it was even an exercise worth doing for the purposes of this bill, given that there appears to be no evidence to base the CBAx on. In lay people\u2019s terms, it\u2019s kind of guesswork. That seems a very big stretch to take when we\u2019re talking about young people\u2019s health, young people consuming something that goes into their body where we don\u2019t know the full effects. We suspect it\u2019s probably worse for them than caffeine; we will know in the fullness of time, and, in the meantime, we have pretty inadequate evidence. I\u2019m just wanting to understand that, as well as the questions about the Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u002286f65851f7e04c5b810cb5a67841ac73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286f65851f7e04c5b810cb5a67841ac73\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I would reassure the member that the advice that we\u2019ve received\u2014there have been prior consultations, we\u2019ve received many submissions on these issues through previous processes, and gender analysis is carried out as part of that inclusion. I think the points that you\u2019re raising around the importance of this issue is the reason why we\u2019re addressing this legislation. We appreciate that. We are very concerned about what young people are putting into their bodies. We don\u2019t want them vaping. That has been a cornerstone of this legislation\u2014we\u2019re absolutely committed to that\u2014and all of these points that you\u2019re raising are leading to exactly the reason this legislation exists: we are doing what we can in this process to get vaping away from our young people and our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002298afd2a66a9b493ab045d364e847a526\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298afd2a66a9b493ab045d364e847a526\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next contribution, I would ask that it is not a general contribution, that it is very specific to the clauses. I feel that we are getting to the end of this debate, but I will take this call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002227739758b1fa417f899e1adb845eecb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227739758b1fa417f899e1adb845eecb0\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This one is picking up on the workability of things like the infringements in relation to specialist vape retailers providing products being able to rely on the legislated or the proposed exemptions to when they might be able to be in breach, and, again, in relation to the fines\u2014$400,000 for a large retailer, or $50,000 for a small one. It has been raised, very briefly, but there is so much about this bill that is dependent on enforcement, and we have heard the Minister say that there will be another bill coming that will provide that element to it. I\u2019d like to know, from the Minister, specifically how that will work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EHow many staff will there be enforcing these provisions, and what will be their powers of enforcement? As I understand it, there\u2019s been one change made to the enforcement powers under this bill, which is to require people to give their birthday, pursuant to regulations that flow from the bill, but is she satisfied that there is provision, and, if so, what is her plan? It\u2019s really hard for us to be blind in this process when we don\u2019t know what the next tranche of legislation is. As this bill currently stands, without provisions relating specifically to enforcement requirements\u2014so that we know that there will be compliance\u2014this is a bit of a toothless tiger; it\u2019s a bit of a wet bus ticket. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe need reassurance from the Minister about what her vision is for enforcement. It has been raised, and so I realise that it is not a specific enforcement provision, but that is because there isn\u2019t one in this bill, and that\u2019s what\u2019s missing from this bill. So if the Minister could please respond to that, that would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa354ae9577949fd8fef394ff29cd697\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa354ae9577949fd8fef394ff29cd697\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221fdcc472dfba47c391aef38006ad0b08\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000666\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e6bab792d74425daaed2ee65c02b296\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Regulations 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226a45c6c0e93a4dc6a4ceafbcab6481b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a45c6c0e93a4dc6a4ceafbcab6481b6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 25 to 29, \u201CAmendments to Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Regulations 2021\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022eca8f9e3103347529bcd32283128ae03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eca8f9e3103347529bcd32283128ae03\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My first question to the Minister is around clause 27, specifically around the amendments to regulation 57 of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Regulations 2021. For subclauses (4) and (5), what we\u2019re seeing is amendments or adjustments to replace certain wordings within that particular regulation around \u201CIf the Internet site contains information about tobacco products, at the top\u201D, as well as \u201CIf the Internet site contains information about tobacco products, at the bottom\u201D. Now, the question I have for the Minister is around the use of advertisement, which this part pertains to, and the use of the static advertisement I was seeing when it comes to tobacco products, and vaping products in general. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFrom what we\u2019re hearing from the Minister\u2014and, again, thank you, Minister, for responding to my questions before around display and visibility. I think that was really, really helpful. The Minister has mentioned in numerous instances that one of the purposes of this bill is to drive down the number of young people smoking or vaping, and that is one of the big issues that we see in all of the regulatory impact statements. However, what we\u2019re not seeing here\u2014particularly, when it comes to some of these minor adjustments with clause 27\u2014is the broader picture of the fact that young people are not being drawn to static advertisement like the amendments and adjustments that we see in this clause. Instead, what we\u2019re seeing\u2014particularly, for those under the age of 18\u2014is that young people are drawn to more variable and more dynamic advertising opportunities through social media and through media influencers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI guess my question more broadly to the Minister is this. If the intention was to really address the number of young people in Aotearoa New Zealand smoking tobacco products as well as vaping, in this particular clause, why wasn\u2019t there a bigger amendment around a certain ban or certain restrictions and framing or limitations around the advertisement of tobacco products and vaping devices beyond the internet and beyond the top and bottom banner, and having it more inclusive around social media platforms, particularly TikTok and Instagram? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb79f6f2d9dd466a978c49bb11c70391\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb79f6f2d9dd466a978c49bb11c70391\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for your inquiries about this. I think the broader conversation you\u2019re having is well beyond the scope of this bill. You\u2019re talking about advertising generally, which is well beyond this. When we talked about tobacco and vaping products, it was really around getting consistency across websites, specialist vaping stores, and generalist vaping stores around the language that was being used. That was the difference. I think the broader discussion around advertising is well beyond the scope of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002244696a617c1541388633e53c9d676e5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244696a617c1541388633e53c9d676e5a\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just have a short contribution to make to Part 2\u2014a very specific question surrounding the change that was made by the select committee in Part 2, which is the regulation section in clause 19B, which is \u201CA child safety mechanism must not be able to be overridden or deactivated by a user.\u201D I thought that was quite an interesting provision. In relation to preventing the use of these products by children, it is obviously something that we all want to make sure doesn\u2019t happen. I have read the select committee report and noted their specific request to change that provision to make it clear that that can\u2019t be overridden. I understand their reasoning was that some children were, say, picking up a vape product and they were sucking on a vape or inhaling some of the vapours and that was obviously something which no one in this committee would think would be desirable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe question I have is in relation to the workability of this provision in the regulations. When we talk about a user, is it correct to state that that is an adult user, and the purpose of this is actually to make the type of child safety mechanisms permanently in place on vape devices in a way that means that children cannot use them? I\u2019m just struggling a wee bit, and I wondered if the Minister might be able to get some technical advice on exactly how something like this would work. Essentially, an effective child safety mechanism on a vape would be to make them permanently closed or unable to be accessible at all by children, which I think is great, but obviously a vape user is probably not going to want to purchase a product which is unable to be used at all. What are we actually talking about in relation to these mechanisms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI mean, the child safety mechanisms that I\u2019m familiar with, and most people in the Chamber would be, are around medicine bottles and things. Obviously, adults can open them; children can\u2019t. Is it that type of situation? What are we putting in place that will keep children safe that still means that adults can purchase a product? I did look through the select committee report to see if there was further information on that\u2014I couldn\u2019t see it\u2014so if the Minister has any more information, I\u2019d be interested to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a869a65a1f9a4371886cd82e3a3ab6b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a869a65a1f9a4371886cd82e3a3ab6b5\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that question. I have received some clarification on it. The child safety mechanism, as you know, already existed. What this process was addressing was the ability to override it, and that included providing instructions on how to override it and all of those other steps. It was to make sure it was clear that it had to have the mechanism, but also that it couldn\u2019t be overridden either by advice or by a process. That was it, really. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022fea084c5f8a64422bdfd0542468458a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fea084c5f8a64422bdfd0542468458a0\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m hoping the Minister will indulge us by wearing one of her other hats, as customs Minister, because I note that one of the easier ways to get around all of this complexity would be to just make sure that we don\u2019t import these devices, that they are ready to go and fit for purpose. I\u2019m curious to know why, from a policy perspective, that was not considered the best way to deal with this. Instead, we have a sort of complex set of rules that involves overriding of devices or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy second question is relating to the one raised by my colleague Camilla Belich; how does the Minister envision that that will be enforced in terms of overriding child devices? I\u2019m just trying to imagine a scenario; is that through enforcement officers checking products? I can\u2019t really imagine how it would be done, and so I\u2019m really keen to hear from the Minister how she thinks it will be able to be achieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy third question is just around the regulations where \u201Ctobacco product\u201D in the regulations has been replaced by \u201Cregulated products\u201D. My understanding is that some vaping products have no nicotine, and I\u2019m wondering if she can clarify whether a non-nicotine vaping product is a regulated product for the purposes of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022d74d31d9e2de4a668dc3af5508432e05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d74d31d9e2de4a668dc3af5508432e05\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would just like to pick up on what the Minister said before, and I would sort of, in some way, respectfully disagree with the Minister, because, in many ways, the scope of the bill is as the Minister shapes the bill, and we have seen numerous instances in this very Chamber during the committee stage where Ministers have taken certain amendments that are completely outside the scope of the original intention of the bill to make those kinds of changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EGoing back to the problems with the definition of the regulatory impact statement\u2014and the Minister is being very persistent around the Smokefree 2025 goal\u2014how we are advertising to young people and how we know which avenues young people are drawn to by advertisements very much would be in the scope of this bill, if the Minister willed it to be in the scope of this bill. I don\u2019t think that just because we\u2019re trying to make things consistent across various legislation by adding specific phrases is sufficient to do these changes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022040d936e95db431ca6fe595c071c0195\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Dragging on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268c7fb77c7e74ce0bd5bce8d663b9700\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: But\u2014would you like to take a call? That is genuinely important because it comes down to what the purpose of this bill is. If this is something that we are really serious about, we might as well do something genuinely progressive about it by looking at how social media is being used as an advertisement for tobacco products and for vaping products. That\u2019s a legitimate question for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ETo the second part of my question, I would also like to get some clarification from the Minister regarding clause 29(2A), which is the new clause 19B of Schedule 5. Now, when we are looking at child safety mechanisms, one of the things that has been in the media as of late is the issue around heated tobacco products, and the fact that child safety mechanisms have been a hindrance because it was something Philip Morris had to pull off the shelf because the products they had didn\u2019t meet the regulatory requirement of that safety mechanism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn this particular case\u2014now, noting that this was an additional addition after the select committee process\u2014can I get a clarification from the Minister on whether the existing products and the existing mechanisms, both in terms of rechargeable and refillable vaping devices but also potentially other things that are being captured by this particular clause, are in fact compliant currently? Or has the Minister received advice from companies or from organisations who do import, who do sell vaping devices, that this is something that currently isn\u2019t available or isn\u2019t currently compliant, and a whole new device system will need to be compliant? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAdditionally, on top of that, what happens to those people who currently have those existing devices that do not potentially have those child safety mechanisms? Would any refill parts or other mechanisms potentially mean that they\u2019re no longer sort of fit within that\u2014I guess, fit within the non-disposable vaping devices of pods, cartridges? Would the refillable stuff still be able to lock into the mechanism or be locked into that device?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EA couple of questions to the Minister: are the existing devices on the market compliant with 19B and would any of the reusable devices that people have which are not compliant\u2014are the refillable options or rechargeable options still available to them, going forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022abd5d1c849a4412c8bae37adedcd3d59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abd5d1c849a4412c8bae37adedcd3d59\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health): \u003C/span\u003EI\u2019ll work backwards. I think, again, just to go through the process, in terms of what products are currently available and what will happen to them if this legislation comes through and is passed, then they will be non-compliant. There\u2019s been a range of changes over the previous years around what devices can or can\u2019t be sold, and the market has pivoted. What happens to those products as they become non-compliant and they can\u2019t be sold? I think I\u2019d go back again to\u2014you\u2019re talking about the child safety mechanism. That system already existed. What we were talking about is adding on a differentiation that it can\u2019t be overridden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI think the previous speaker talked about the child lock devices and how they would be checked. That is the longer narrative around verifying the product being sold, and that\u2019s the compliance regime that we talked about. I think it\u2019s important to separate out the legislation versus the policy and operationalising of that legislation, and what happens from that point around the enforcement team and how they will apply that. The question was earlier asked about the importation process and cutting it off at the pass. That was looked at in terms of whether that is included around\u2014because of the volume and the nature of devices, we are focusing at this point on the point of sale of products. That was where we\u2019re sitting there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EYou mentioned previously about non-regulated products; regulated products that were non-nicotine. They would fall within this regulated products regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022cde0fe75d47b44258ec3291502ad77ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cde0fe75d47b44258ec3291502ad77ae\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like to pick up on a couple of points that the Minister made which have really piqued my interest. When the Minister said that we need to separate out the legislation from the enforcement, I think the point from the Opposition is that there is nothing in this legislation that actually points to enforcement, apart from one change to enforcement officers being able to request the date of birth of somebody that they are interacting with in order to see whether the law has been broken; yet both regulatory impact statements say very clearly that the value of this bill and the workability of it depend very heavily on enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard the Minister say that there will be new legislation coming in that will deal with enforcement, and yet she has not answered questions about how many enforcement officers, what powers they will have, what resourcing they will have, whether there will be a weighting towards areas that have a higher prevalence of vape stores, and all of those questions which this bill is entirely contingent upon, if it is to have any impact at all on the youth vaping rates. So I\u2019m curious as to the statement about separating enforcement out. We don\u2019t see enforcement in the bill. I would ask the Minister once again, please, to answer the question that has been asked by both the Green Party and ourselves, as Labour, about enforcement, because it is otherwise a conceptual bill that simply will not make any difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen that with the evidence that\u2019s come through the submission process but also, actually, from Vape-Free Kids and others from the university and the Public Health Coalition\u2014who presented independently to the Health Committee\u2014to show that, probably due to resourcing, there has been very little effort by the ministry around enforcement. That is kind of the $64 million question here, and it is the one area that we\u2019re not getting any answers from. I\u2019d really encourage the Minister to continue, please, in the really helpful vein that she has been this evening and shed some light on enforcement. If it is going to be in the next bill, please, let us know the vision of how that will occur so that we can have some confidence that this bill will indeed achieve its legislative purpose, given that we are voting in favour of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u002243d848522c9344628632a5b4db7c80ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243d848522c9344628632a5b4db7c80ac\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226c69647e00c94146964c9b089e957114\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000695\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a7922a3870b48e9b88df521c781cd56\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d65e9c6135a8466e8bdaa640b80fc0ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d65e9c6135a8466e8bdaa640b80fc0ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We come now to the debate on clauses 1 to 3. This is the debate on title and commencement and principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022226de39cc9bb4fe9b413c27da21edf15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022226de39cc9bb4fe9b413c27da21edf15\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would like to ask the Minister questions about the name of this bill, which is the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2). As we have submitted continuously throughout this evening, this feels like it\u2019s kind of a fraction of a wider piece of work, and, therefore, we would like to suggest that perhaps the name be amended to the \u201CSmokefree Environments (Part of) and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No. 2)\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to draw your attention to the things that the bill does not do, which many submitters were really frustrated with, because these are things where there has been evidence from submitters, and also New Zealand - based evidence rather than all this UK, Australia\u2014I think there was even Hungary or something in the regulatory impact statement at one point. This is New Zealand - based evidence that speaks to the correlation between young people vaping and what is enabling them to vape, and it is not all just about visibility and about advertising and marketing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat we heard from submitters was there may be a need, if we\u2019re really serious about cracking down, to license retailers, to actually have a licensing regime so that we can get the information and evidence which seems to be so scant. I have referred to that in a previous contribution around the community-based assessment centres, where there hasn\u2019t been a fulsome cost-benefit analysis because the information simply hasn\u2019t been gathered. By licensing retailers and having a licence regime, we would be able to get valuable information to be able to inform policy and to make this a better piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also been no regard that we can see given to the idea of a sinking lid on retailers. That is just allowing them to exist until they close and then not letting any others in those areas, particularly where we know that some of them have seven times the number of vape stores than others\u2014for example, in low socio-economic areas. So this is another reason why we would want the title to reflect that this is incomplete and that there is more work to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard submissions about the density limits for specialist vape retailers, that there\u2019d be a more scientific approach given to that. We\u2019ve heard nothing from the Minister, nothing in this bill, and yet many submissions in the select committee process about further restrictions on flavours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222999e0662b644cb7bb05726063f99302\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: How many on the title?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d54d3fd76b84035ab7ec081a3260e5d\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we could maybe call it the \u201CSmokefree Environments (Not Changing any of the Flavours) and Regulated Products Amendment Bill\u201D, if that was going to be helpful to members opposite. It\u2019s great to see them engaging with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EA really key part of this that we received submissions on was allowing different nicotine levels and reducing the allowances of that. Now, that seems to be a fundamental\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226835a879be5c444eaef23fdf6d57fd50\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022535a1c7a4d4b4511b362db82fd684352\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014way of reducing\u2014sir, if I may, I\u2019m speaking to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e37e69bd7f242388076f17714b1e214\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Sam Uffindell, but if you\u2019re going to a point of order about relevance, you can sit down. That\u2019s a job for the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226bf178b18a14489837d6a622a844795\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: Noted, Mr Chair. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224237a7ea2a0e4328a898cb2b0833c05e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just anticipating, to save you a job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a820c738a6d74a469626d657b6386f41\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: There were lots of submissions that showed evidence around tapering out nicotine levels and the impact that has on the addiction to vaping and the appeal to young people, and yet this bill remains silent on that. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister, as one of my questions, whether the next tranche of legislation is going to address that and, therefore, whether we should amend the title to reflect that we\u2019re only at the sort of halfway mark at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe also heard submissions about plain packaging, and one of the things that hasn\u2019t been addressed tonight, actually, around visibility\u2014and I know my colleague in the Greens H\u016Bhana Lyndon was very interested in this in the Health Committee\u2014is the fact that there\u2019s a big focus on visibility and yet vape stores can have giant neon signs outside their store. That doesn\u2019t seem to be captured by this legislation, so perhaps the Minister can explain whether that is going to be in the next legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere are other things as well that I know our colleagues will want to speak to, including public health measures\u2014proactively educating young people about vaping. How do we change the culture of vaping? None of these have been addressed by this bill and so I would like to ask the Minister if she would be willing to change the title. I think that would be very helpful in terms of allowing the public to understand that this is not the full measure of her commitment to reducing youth vaping but that there is indeed much more work to do. Perhaps we could also have \u201Cenforcement\u201D in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e2f896541f546a98487008c5c253304\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I will just say that we are on title and commencement. In that first speech, there was a lot of context in there; we occasionally went back to the title and commencement. Further speakers now will be expected to be much more direct around title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00221e6688702f4f4228ace195eb8b2e2452\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e6688702f4f4228ace195eb8b2e2452\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you Mr Chair. I actually don\u2019t want to speak about the title. I would like to focus on the commencement, and specifically clause 2(2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe reason I want to focus on this is because, somewhat unusually\u2014although not totally out of expectation\u2014there are different commencement parts to this bill in the second clause. The first one is a relatively regular one: \u201Cday after Royal assent.\u201D, and the second one actually goes through it\u2014and I\u2019ve just gone through the bill and tried to highlight all\u00A0of\u00A0the sections that come into force six months after Royal assent. It is quite a substantive part of the bill, and I don\u2019t want to go through all of those clauses\u2014one could, but I don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWhat I did want to ask the Minister is, well, two things, really. The first thing is: I assume that the reason that there\u2019s a six-month delay in coming into force is to basically allow retailers and people to come to terms with the change of the regulatory and legal framework and be able to be compliant with it. That\u2019s what I assume, but if that\u2019s wrong, keen to hear the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe main question that I wanted to ask is about the infringement offences, which I understand do come into force after that period of time as well. I just wanted to check with the Minister if that was also just so everyone had six months to change the way that they did things and they weren\u2019t subject to infringement offences, or whether that was for some other reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI did want to understand if it was the intention to, essentially, give a period of time where, even if people were not acting in accordance with other sections of this bill, they wouldn\u2019t be found to be infringing it under clause 2(2). That just stood out for me as a particularly interesting one\u2014which obviously it\u2019s not to do with allowing compliance; it\u2019s due to punishing under this particular clause\u2014and I just wondered if she had any further advice about why that was specifically included. I note that it was not one that the Health Committee specifically included\u2014or they did move them around quite a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re in a difficult situation, really, where we have some of this coming into force one day after Royal assent, and then, from what I can see, the vast majority of active clauses coming in after that date. I just wanted to get some clarity on that from her\u2014if I\u2019m correct that the main thing is to give notice and then people are going to be covered by this, both retailers and law enforcement in terms of enforcing infringements under this bill\u2014and why, in fact, some of it is therefore appropriate to be introduced at an earlier stage. It just seemed to me quite an unusual way to divvy up a bill, and I just wondered if she wanted to elucidate the reasons for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a425dc5e403c475aa7f43696e873e137\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a425dc5e403c475aa7f43696e873e137\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question, and, yes, you\u2019ve largely touched on the reasons. Because we were talking about displays, there are some components around that that would require some preparation around that process and therefore the changing of stock and those sorts of things, which is consistent with when we\u2019ve made previous changes in this legislative process. Yes, it was cognisant of the fact that there would likely be some significant changes around displays, as we\u2019ve seen with the stores as the way they\u2019re currently set up. There was recognition of a need for preparation\u2014so important that the legislation was put through, but allowing a lead-in time for those things where there may be penalties applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002206c918ae3a6d40e5b332db34281ff89b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206c918ae3a6d40e5b332db34281ff89b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would like to ask a few questions of the Minister in the chair regarding the title of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, one of the things that we\u2019ve heard through the committee of the whole House stage, when it comes to the Minister\u2019s response to a lot of our questions, is around the fact that many of these are considered out of scope of this particular bill. But, as we have seen in terms of the problem statement definition in this\u2014and some of the Minister\u2019s own responses and own targets that she says, both within the committee stage and also more broadly around this bill\u2014 we want to address the issue of smoking and vaping in Aotearoa New Zealand and we want to hit those targets. One of the things that we are consistently coming up against in this committee stage, and also in getting some advice from the Minister, is that there are a lot of things that are considered out of scope, and it is within the Minister\u2019s remit to make them within the scope in order to hit some of those targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFrom a title perspective, I feel like we are actually falling short of the overall consideration, the overall thing we\u2019re trying to address here. The Minister could consider having the Act being called the \u201CPartial Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Act (No 2)\u201D, because it is in fact that we are only partially there. We\u2019re not really dealing with the fundamental issues and some of the fundamental levers that allow us to be in that smoke-free environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAlso, one of the other things that we have been hearing consistently throughout the committee stage is the fact that this bill looks great on paper but there is still a lot of uncertainty, and all of the regulatory impact statement submissions express the uncertainty around the enforceability of this and particularly some of the limitations and restrictions that we\u2019re going to be putting around disposable vaping devices. In that sense, we\u2019re looking at this Act being called \u201CRegulated Products\u201D, but, in fact, possibly what might be better for this particular Act is \u201CSmokefree Environments and Regulated (But Not Enforced) Products Amendment Act (No 2)\u201D. I think that is much more adept in terms of some of the responses that we are getting from the Minister regarding this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that we are hearing as well from the Minister on this suite of different bills is the fact that this is one of many\u2014in fact, this is \u201C(No 2)\u201D\u2014but we have no certainty to know how many there are going to be in this number. It would be really, really helpful, and I genuinely would like to hear if the Minister would consider\u2014you know, she probably has a plan for this\u2014having the total number being indicated as part of the title name. For example, we have \u201C(No 2)\u201D here for 2024, but maybe it\u2019s good to give a signal to the House and to the legislature that this is \u201C(No 2 out of 3)\u201D, \u201C(No 2 out of 4)\u201D, or \u201C(No 2 out of 5)\u201D. How many more of these sort of bills are we going to be seeing dragging things out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211fe3a2896214ff0aa58f12e75dd812a\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Why would you put that in a title?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022478277881db048b6b1840317e78af32b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Please, if the members would like to contribute and take a call, you too can contribute on the title of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, finally, if the Minister would consider as another alternative title\u2014because often we do see the bills going through the House having titles or brackets that pertain to at least somewhat of the content of the bill. But what we\u2019re seeing here in terms of \u201C(No 1)\u201D and \u201C(No 2)\u201D is that \u201C(No 1)\u201D and \u201C(No 2)\u201D are, really, fairly non-descriptive in terms of the content of the bill. I ask whether the Minister would consider including \u201CSmokefree Environments and Regulated Product Amendment Bill (Disposable Vaping Ban) (No 2)\u201D\u2014like, even then, it would give some indication as to what the content of this bill is. We have seen that across the board with a number of other bills as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThose are some of my suggestions. Some of them are probably more serious than others, and I would like to hear from the Minister, particularly with my recommendation for \u201C(No 3)\u201D and \u201C(No 4)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00224a869fbfec2646afb6b9d5224bdfa9de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a869fbfec2646afb6b9d5224bdfa9de\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his passionate contribution. My response is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u002230e7d39e32c0452dbb261045f7482bb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230e7d39e32c0452dbb261045f7482bb1\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022237ccfe453b84ae983fcc6ff51510267\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000733\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000734\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000735\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000736\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222170fc9c49304cdb930dea6be1186393\u0022\u003ECrown Minerals Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002292ab9f209af34e769d6b9f524127456e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227acc613ccd4647c1851d1927d4aecee8\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to purpose provision and Parts 1 and 1A of principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f332bc36f18b4748b844de545b9455db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f332bc36f18b4748b844de545b9455db\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee is now considering the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. Members, we come now to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 4 to 13, \u201CAmendments to purpose provision and Parts 1 and 1A of principal Act\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022645c9b59345144f1a1a71b9f336abc29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022645c9b59345144f1a1a71b9f336abc29\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I can see that the Minister for Resources wants to take a call, so I will keep this brief. As you say, we\u2019re going through this Part 1, and Part 1 of this bill actually is reasonably broad-ranging because what is happening with the amendments in this bill, in Part 1, is, of course, the purpose statement of the bill being changed. We know how important a purpose statement is to a piece of legislation. It is more than a single clause that is being amended. In fact, it sets the context for how statutory interpretation of a particular piece of legislation may proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe change that is happening to this purpose statement in this bill is one that wasn\u2019t long ago amended. It was amended under the previous Government to remove the onus on the Crown to \u201Cpromote\u201D minerals exploration to the more benign \u201Cmanage\u201D of the minerals estate. This amendment takes us back to where we were prior to that amendment, and there are strong and large implications of that, of which that we do have questions for the Minister around. Of course, one of the reasons and the very raison d\u2019\u00EAtre that\u2019s been given for this bill is that the Minister has said we need to signal that we are open for business when it comes to minerals exploration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI have some very specific questions for the Minister around that, because the Minister received advice. It was in the regulatory impact statement that, indeed, investment in minerals exploration in New Zealand had been declining since 2014\u2014nothing to do with the legislation that occurred in 2018 and 2019, when our Government and Labour led the charge to end oil and gas exploration. There had already been a decline in terms of the exploration activity happening in New Zealand, before that change, and the regulatory impact statement very clearly puts that within the international context of what has been happening around the world. It points to the fact that we are seeing money shift away from minerals exploration and that that is a trend. We saw the peak of this happen in the early 2000s. I would like to know from the Minister what advice he has received that wasn\u2019t in the regulatory impact statement that indicates that we are going to see an increase in exploration activity, when the historical data would actually point to the fact that there has been a decline. So that\u2019s exploration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister has also talked extensively about the fact that we need to keep investing in those wells that we have. One of the things we on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee asked for advice on\u2014and it is in the commentary around the bill\u2014was the level of investment that was occurring in those permits that were running their course, which were put in place after we ended oil and gas exploration. We can see the long-run investment that was going into existing permits: from 2013, $1.5 billion; 2014, $2\u00A0billion; 2015, $1.3 billion; 2019, $1.15 billion; 2020, $1.02 billion; 2021, $1.1\u00A0billion; right through to 2022, $1.3 billion. We actually saw an increase of investment going into existing wells, which seems to run counter to the rhetoric that the Minister is using. I\u2019d like to know from the Minister: what advice he has received that there hasn\u2019t been investment going in to those existing permits that are there, and the need to change the purpose statement in clause 1 of the bill in order to counter that. Certainly, his officials were giving us advice in the select committee that investment has been going in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe stark reality, which I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister, is that despite over a billion dollars a year being invested in our existing permits in wells in New Zealand, there has not been a significant find of oil and gas offshore in New Zealand since the early 2000s. This is not for want of trying. This is not because we introduced a ban on new exploration permits. This is because it is simply not there in a commercially viable way. I\u2019d like to know what advice the Minister has that, somehow, he is going to turn around the course of what has been happening for a very long time and is the long run of what we have seen in New Zealand. I\u00A0have not seen a shred of evidence that his officials could provide to the select committee. I eagerly await hearing from the Minister and understanding what new evidence he has, because I\u2019m sure this Minister would only make decisions made on evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7f53106b9a44c53a19e75779eaf3620\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7f53106b9a44c53a19e75779eaf3620\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Shane\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00220d59f52ccfb74ec3bbdffb6a267a2e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d59f52ccfb74ec3bbdffb6a267a2e7f\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Jones, otherwise known as \u201Cthe Matua of Mining\u201D. Thank you very much, Mr Chair, for enabling me to make a few introductory remarks, and I respect the fact that that senior member of the Labour Opposition, the Hon Dr Megan Woods, has laid down some important questions. But questions must be based on facts, and I draw her attention to Part 1, clause 4. A key portion and a key motivation for this legislation is to get rid of the dewy-eyed expression, backward-orientated\u2014i.e., to replace the word \u201Cmanage\u201D with \u201Cpromote\u201D. We belong\u2014which is the underlying impulse beneath this bill\u2014to a Government who is possessed of confidence and optimism that gas and oil has a long-term role to play in the functioning of our economy, till 2050 and beyond. I only hope that I might outlive Moses to enjoy that sight in 2050, but that lies in the world of Providence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOne of the questions that the member asks is why are we settling upon the word \u201Cpromote\u201D rather than \u201Cmanage\u201D. If we do not promote\u2014and I am being quite open and unfettered here in the philosophical direction that we\u2019re travelling\u2014our economy, if we do not promote our indigenous resources, if we do not convey to investors both domestic and overseas that we\u2019re open for business and their rights will be protected and will not be summarily stripped in the way that that 2018 decision had the unintended effect of stripping people\u2019s confidence and certainty\u2014thus, they abandoned their rights. That is why the word \u201Cpromote\u201D is there. I don\u2019t need to trail through the words and the detritus of various bureaucratic statements\u2014this is what we were elected to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, if I can go on and respond to a few other remarks: yes, the member is correct, there are some challenges in terms of accessing the geologically existent gas resources. But the whole purpose of this set of amendments is to give the confidence to people that, if they make the commitment, if they spend the hundreds of millions of dollars, their rights will not be stripped in some sort of Venezuelan experience, which, sadly, has begun to infect the sovereign reputation that our nation currently is viewed as possessing. Oil and gas was, at that particular point in time, closed down, so it\u2019s just not correct to say that it\u2019s a geological reality, the chilling effect of an earlier decision. Reversing that foolish, naive, juvenile decision is what this bill seeks to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere are a host of other improvements, sir, and, with your acquiescence, I\u2019d like to quickly outline them so that members on the other side of the Chamber can follow the narrative and identify where there may be opportunities for them to contribute. I\u2019ve already spoken about investor confidence\u2014that\u2019s not to be trivialised. I will also, during the course of this debate, talk about the decommissioning regime. Why on earth should the taxpayer, exclusively, be left with the obligation of a liability to write out the Gregory to meet the costs of decommissioning\u2014i.e., clean up after firms have profited from the utilisation of this indigenous resource?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAt the same time, we do not want to impose such onerous obligations and duties that are so burdensome it scares away investors, and that\u2019s why this is like a Swiss watch: finely balanced, not unlike the character of \u201Cthe Matua of Mining\u201D. That is what actually is going to be, I think, taking a bit of time this evening, the decommissioning. And there\u2019s a loophole. Sadly, a loophole was left by the old regime that would have allowed flash Harrys and other untrustworthy characters from time to time to poke their nose into the affairs of New Zealand, and that is what we\u2019ll be fixing up later this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d94ee500b76f4340be10faa478fd3304\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d94ee500b76f4340be10faa478fd3304\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. I thank the Minister for Resources for addressing some of those questions, but, more specifically, on the change from \u201Cmanage\u201D to \u201Cpromote\u201D, which is at the crux of Part 1 of the bill. I\u2019d\u00A0like to flag that the other piece that we will come to under this part of the bill is, of course, the provisions around the Government policy statement, but I\u2019ll address that in a further call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister went through why they were changing from \u201Cmanage\u201D to \u201Cpromote\u201D, but that\u2019s not actually what I asked. I asked the Minister what advice he had and, to quote him, why he is \u201Cpossessed with confidence and optimism\u201D that we can have oil and gas through to 2050\u2014and why they are changing that provision in Part 1 of the bill around \u201Cpromote\u201D, given the historical data that shows us that, since 2014, we have had a decrease in exploration in New Zealand? They are the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister said that he wanted to deal in the facts. Well, the facts are in black and white, from his own officials in the regulatory impact statement: \u201CExploration activity in New Zealand has been declining since 2014, before the 2018 ban on new petroleum exploration outside onshore Taranaki. This is consistent with global trends in upstream oil and gas investment, which peaked in 2014 when the oil price crashed, and has not recovered to the same levels as oil and gas firms and traditional lenders navigate the energy transition\u201D. The Minister tells the committee he is \u201Cpossessed with confidence and optimism\u201D. I want to know why that is, given what advice that he has received and given the advice that we are seeing from his officials runs absolutely counter to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister also tells us\u2014and, again, there\u2019s a nuance on what was asked of the Minister and what he did not address with the contribution he made to the committee. I asked him why we need to do this. He talked about there being all this risk and investors fleeing. The evidence, the facts\u2014it is laid out in the commentary to the bill\u2014show that, actually, investment in existing fields increased after the ban. The facts do not stack up with what the Minister is saying. There was no investment flight. In fact, investors put more and more money into the existing permits that were left untouched after the 2018 changes, yet there were not the significant fines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat evidence is the Minister working off? From what we are hearing, it sounds like a whole lot of rhetoric, and the evidence that his own officials have provided alongside this bill to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee and through the regulatory impact statement runs counter to what the Minister is claiming. This committee deserves to hear what other evidence is sitting out there that we haven\u2019t been privy to or that we haven\u2019t seen that shows the need for these changes in Part\u00A01? It certainly doesn\u2019t stack up, and this committee deserves to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022737a42487436456d8f0d88c190212a1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022737a42487436456d8f0d88c190212a1b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before the Minister does rise to speak, I remind him that he\u2019s been blessed with a very loud voice and he doesn\u2019t need the microphone to make it loud. The convention in the chair is that you don\u2019t use the microphone to increase the depth and volume of your comments. But, now, feel free to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb43f9a6398945e0b58b44d9c5dc34a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb43f9a6398945e0b58b44d9c5dc34a4\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Sir, I shall take that admonition on board. It\u2019s just that, in my life, I\u2019ve found that volume is proportionately related to intellect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI will now respond to the questions, and this is how this debate should work: the questions that the honourable member the Hon Dr Megan Woods has put before me\u2014this is a very senior member of the current House of Representatives, and she is complaining that underlying the words in this statute is an absence of quality information. The information that I have amassed as a Minister often comes from the industry, and they were frightened to share that information with the former Minister. They were scared. They had been scared. They had been demonised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228bab581f804454bb088e8167df7cd1e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d8cda99b45a4cbe803e92d21ccfd296\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Now, my volume will rise if there\u2019s too many interactions of an unprofessional nature. They were intimidated by the last Government, and they were so open after the election to sharing with me. For example, they were five days away from signing major contracts for that massive gas resource off the coast of Te Wai Pounamu, Oamaru, Timaru\u2014five days away\u2014and then that indiscriminate, random cancellation decision was made by that Prime Minister, aided and supported by the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb9b428d2cc74e3bb20c23ec817d6fa5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Nonsense. The time line doesn\u2019t even stack up!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226068a5a99b7d452b803ced69cf941aa3\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Sir, I\u2019ve been invited to provide insights as to where I might have got them from, and in this committee, I\u2019m endeavouring to do that. Because the industry had been chilled, the industry had not been given an opportunity to openly engage, and they knew\u2014they knew\u2014that if they shared information, it would be used against them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI\u2019m so thankful that many of the representatives from the current industry are so open and forthright with their information. For those reasons, I\u2019m possessed of a great deal of confidence and optimism for our country. We, of course, didn\u2019t know\u2014certainly, we the politicians of that time\u2014that the consequence of cancelling the oil and gas industry in 2018 would be a growth in Indonesian coal, but the industry knew that. The oil and gas industry knew that, but they were afraid to share that with that Minister, because they knew they would be demonised. A number of them have been driven out of New Zealand. That\u2019s why they are now flocking back\u2014they are now flocking back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThey\u2019re 10 deep in terms of people wanting to meet with me and share their enthusiasm in relation to trusting the word \u201Cpromote\u201D. All the word means is that, now, the Crown, the State, will promote that this indigenous resource is available to be exploited, available to be processed, and made available so that we have energy security. We are handicapped because we no longer have energy security as a consequence of Taranaki being shorn, Taranaki being denied, and Taranaki being undermined of economic resilience, due to a climate-alarmist decision that was made and, sadly, has now proved to be having a very devastating effect in that part. But, on Friday, I\u2019m going there, and I\u2019m going to share with Taranaki that there is a future for oil and gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe word \u201Cpromote\u201D does mean that our regions have a future, including ironsands, and I look forward to meeting the various stakeholders in that regard, because that\u2019s what \u201Cpromote\u201D means. When we denote through legislation that we\u2019re going to be active and outward looking, we\u2019re entitled to have a different philosophical approach. I mean, one party over there believes in wind. Now, I\u2019m not speaking against the god of wind\u2014occasionally, I\u2019m regarded as the god of wind\u2014but all I\u2019m saying is that gas and coal have a vital place to play, and we need to exploit it, and through these amendments, we will be exploiting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8eca7cf7434432b83cc25ab068bd45d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8eca7cf7434432b83cc25ab068bd45d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for Resources for that contribution, and I invite the Minister to share and table with this committee that evidence that has been provided to him. It comes as news to me that big oil and gas were so intimidated by me that they were afraid to show me this evidence. I certainly had many robust debates with them, and certainly officials had information shared with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI find it interesting that the Minister is telling us the industry is sharing with him information that clearly has not been shared with his officials, because it certainly isn\u2019t making its way into the regulatory impact statements or any of the advice that has been offered to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. If the Minister is receiving off-book advice from some of these industry players, I think the committee would be very interested to know the provenance of that advice and to see that advice and to see it there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister opened up a very interesting area for debate in that last contribution that he made when he said that part of the reason for amending the purpose statement in Part\u00A01 of this bill was, of course, around energy security. I have some very easy questions for the Minister. Historically, how long on average has it taken a permit to come from exploration to production? And, given the time that it takes, and it has taken historically, to take a permit from exploration to production, how many could have been in place after an ending of oil and gas exploration in 2018? How many historically new fields would we have seen in place? Does the Minister really want to continue telling New Zealanders that this is the answer to the energy challenges that we face?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EHe says with great glee that he\u2019s going down to Taranaki to promote ironsand mining at the expense of wind. Wind energy, offshore wind, which the Minister brought up as something that he is going to privilege through Part 1 of this legislation, not only has the potential to provide New Zealand with energy security in the medium to long term but\u2014this cuts to the heart of what Labour believes about this\u2014offshore wind offers opportunities for New Zealanders in employment. It offers well-paid, meaningful jobs in terms of the energy transition, and this is what this Government is prepared to throw away in this name of \u201Cshort-termism\u201D. That is what we are seeing with the change in this purpose provision of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister is showing through the contributions he\u2019s making to the committee tonight that he is not serving in the best interests of New Zealand. He speaks with glee about the fact that he is here for, and to promote, the interests of the industry\u2014for the big end of town. Well, we on this side of town, on this side of the Chamber, will speak up every day of the week for the people whose jobs are on the line, the people that need that well-paid meaningful work into the future, and that security. We will stand up for those communities and not for a Minister that is prepared to put the interests of industry first\u2014certainly not New Zealanders first; that is not what we are seeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EA responsible Government needs to take a long-term view of where opportunities lie in our regions and where opportunities lie for New Zealanders in work. The Minister is showing absolutely no ability to do that. I go back to the question that I started this contribution with: what advice is the Minister specifically referring to that he has received from industry, and will he table it so the committee can share in it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00224239e9913067414bbaf8858950c447dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224239e9913067414bbaf8858950c447dd\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E This is a short contribution because I\u2019m confident that the Green member will want to have her say, and that\u2019s fair enough. Although content is inversely related to relevance, I shall now respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhat I have said is that, as a consequence of earlier decisions, investment confidence in New Zealand chilled. The word \u201Cpromote\u201D is designed to lift up spirits, and as a consequence of the high-quality interaction that I have enjoyed\u2014which is why I have been dubbed \u201Cthe Emperor of Energy\u201D and a host of other high-quality descriptions. Now, far be it from me to exaggerate those names, but I can\u2019t deny the fact that, when I go to industry fora, they are genuinely impressed that they have a politician that is pro-industry, that is pro-growth, and that is pro-economy. If you have any doubt\u2014because this has turned into quite a wide-ranging debate, sir\u2014go on to, I think it is, YouTube and you can see our former Prime Minister in a Time magazine interview giving her view as to why the gas and oil industry was cancelled by her. The foolish philosophy is reflected in that senior member of the committee, the Hon\u00A0Dr Megan Woods, but this is a debate about democracy and ideas, and I accept that. All I\u2019m going to say, yet again, is that \u201Cpromote\u201D is an active term; \u201Cpromote\u201D is a forward-leaning term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, in addition to that, this particular part\u2014and I\u2019m hoping I can move matters along\u00A0slightly\u2014deals with the Government policy statement, GPS, shall I say, and this creates an opportunity for the Crown to state very clearly how gas, how this particular resource, can play a key transitional role. The member did raise transition. The fact of the\u00A0matter is that because the gas and oil industry was cancelled by Labour, what do we\u00A0have? Indonesian coal. We have Genesis bringing mountains of coal here, and so many industries\u2014the corn industry, we heard on Radio New Zealand this morning, are no longer planting corn because the gas industry was cancelled. That is jobs lost in agriculture, jobs denied regional New Zealanders, so it\u2019s not unreasonable for us to reinstate the importance of this particular resource being made available to investors, either domestic or fresh international investors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAnd do you know what they\u2019re going to say? They\u2019re going to say, \u201CBut how long is this going to last?\u201D That\u2019s a very, very sad and, quite frankly, depressing prospect, because they fear that this lurching which has defined energy policy in New Zealand will continue. I suspect it\u2019ll only continue for as long as that member is the representative of her party for energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddd636331bbe4257bf9f1d3c15e642fa\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260cfc163f472451e9c5fc22f119566a4\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014it\u2019s quite true, quite true. So much of what we do in our positions is informed by the heritage we feel we need to protect. It\u2019s all OK to say we made a mistake. I should never have stood with Jacinda Ardern in 2018 with my Kabuki faces and acquiesce with the worst decision ever made on energy policy in New Zealand. Now I\u2019m correcting it, which is why I\u2019m highly applauded throughout industry in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220516adf9bdd9427197e6da1262a25577\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220516adf9bdd9427197e6da1262a25577\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just make the comment at this stage that while the Minister continues to make each of his replies sound like a general debate speech, it\u2019s very, very difficult to narrow the topic. While he continues to introduce new topics, then of course it\u2019s going to be very difficult for the Chair to rule that the debate has become repetitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00222f2072621cb84fdc9819cb6b9e19fcf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f2072621cb84fdc9819cb6b9e19fcf4\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3d13a1f72db4214b6d0323f63d33ad7\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: This\u2019ll be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203c7c00abaad44c193a51a0610c4b875\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s very kind. I appreciate the acknowledgment of the Chair that the debate has been widened somewhat, and we do appreciate that, Minister \u201CMatua of Minerals\u201D. The suggestion that the Minister for Resources made, that it was juvenile to respond to the existential threat of climate change by keeping minerals in the ground\u2014oil, gas, and coal\u2014is an interesting suggestion, and I would like to ask the Minister, once I outline the nature of why his use of that term \u201Cjuvenile\u201D needs to be explained somewhat: is it juvenile to take into account the advice of the International Energy Agency (IEA), which says that we need to leave all oil, gas, and coal unexplored and unextracted from 2021\u2014three years ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EOne of the members opposite suggested we should have nuclear energy in New Zealand. I do not think that\u2019s a popular suggestion\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022809da42c058b488bafd6a2724eb52a3a\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what the IEA says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223966ec612a7b47ec86f0d2bd94217de3\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Are you suggesting that there should be nuclear energy in New Zealand? I do not believe that nuclear is a good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, given that the International Energy Agency suggests that we need to leave oil, gas, and coal in the ground, and it may suggest that in some regions nuclear is appropriate\u2014there\u2019s a whole lot of other problems with nuclear, and I\u2019m sure most New Zealanders do not want to see nuclear here. Perhaps the Minister has a view on that, given that perhaps his colleagues think that nuclear is a good idea. Also, in the transition to a decarbonised society, there is an expectation that the remaining gas that we have will be used wisely, i.e., not expended on things that are inefficient; perhaps not exported as methanol, which is not the most wise use of gas if it\u2019s such a vital energy resource for us, given a Canadian company is doing most of that exporting\u2014and, in that regard, making the decision at a political level, in 2018, to say we will lock away the remaining oil, gas, and coal in the ground, and thereby begin that crucial journey of transition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhat advice has the Minister received that he regards as so juvenile on the climate and energy transition impact of reopening oil and gas, and coal, as he advocates for, in such a way as the Minister talks about locking us into a commitment and a dependency on that gas to 2050? What is the impact of New Zealand\u2019s obligations and commitments to achieving global climate targets to deal with that existential challenge of climate change, which the Minister describes as \u201Cclimate alarmism\u201D? Is the Minister not only saying the International Energy Agency is wrong, but also saying the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is incorrect when it says the greatest threat facing humanity\u2014all of us\u2014is existential climate change? And how has the Minister justified, in the light of whatever advice he has received, the reopening of oil and gas exploration? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266629c3a5b904e7a83d90089e2f1d3f7\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Competitive energy prices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd536769c76b4c74aad614dcad60d745\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: The energy crisis that the member opposite has interjected about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b8bc325cd2d411cad740b913574dab9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Competitive energy prices\u2014electricity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022962d3d6688e04ce187fc29b19a64a447\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I will tell you\u2014is, in fact, a crisis of a failure of Governments to actually plan sufficiently for how we do the transition. A refusal to intervene in the market in such a way as it makes the generators build the consented wind farms that they have, as it makes sure that the actual market incentivises the creation of the new renewable energy that we need to electrify our entire energy system, to respond to the member opposite. This strategy of digging up new gas and oil does not take us on that journey to decarbonisation, and so my question to the Minister is: how do you, in the context of whatever climate advice you\u2019ve got\u2014which we\u2019d like to hear what it is\u2014justify this level of denial of climate change, this level of denial of the science of energy transition? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f511da0097a2403daa54cc8d8409260b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f511da0097a2403daa54cc8d8409260b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to the allegation that the pulpit of truth now is in an international energy organisation. I am entitled to form a view that that is a disagreeable organisation run by corporate ruffians. We will not be embracing everything it says, because its advice does not suit the needs and it\u2019s not well-informed about the trajectory that our wee nation is on of $400 billion GDP\u2014a 5.2 million country who has historically had a hermetically sealed energy system. We\u2019re on the verge of having to contemplate importing liquified natural gas because of the cancellation of the oil and gas industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, I want to keep it very tight and direct the member to Part 1, new section 12, the Government policy statement. That is where a Government of the day will lay down what is the virtue; what is the policy; indeed, what is the purpose as to why society would choose to continue to use this particular resource. This is a device. This is a platform that enables that narrative, those debates, to take place. Unlike what I inherited, we\u2019re not going to make random, indiscriminate decisions based on the voters of Sandringham in Auckland. We\u2019re going to take account of industry, we\u2019re going to take account of employers, we\u2019re going to take account of firms up and down regional New Zealand; not the tiny group of\u2014I won\u2019t say chardonnay-drinking because that\u2019s so tired and old-fashioned. All I\u2019ll talk about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce99070eae1945418b840dc87b0de902\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Champagne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c893e52e3334299a62968f27d5e60f1\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: No, I won\u2019t talk about champagne either. I\u2019ll just talk about the fact that a tiny, narrow group of swivel-eyed, ill-informed people living in that general area of\u2014I\u2019m astounded I\u2019m saying this, because my nephew Stacey Jones actually comes from Sandringham, Point Chevalier\u2014one of the greatest players of rugby league; I\u2019ve no idea whether he depends on gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI just want to bring my contribution to a point for the members on the other side of the Chamber: the Government policy statement is where these priorities, these different points of opinion, can be articulated, and the public can have their say. Because I\u2019m very, very open-minded, I look out to gather information in, but I\u2019m not going to be guilt tripped by any organisation that is dominated by people who are anti-growth, anti-development, and have swallowed the virus of climatism\u2014it\u2019s just not happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00226cf627dd416e429c9c1ea724b377475d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cf627dd416e429c9c1ea724b377475d\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. I still don\u2019t feel the Minister for Resources has addressed the question from my colleague the Hon Megan Woods around why on earth would he want to \u201Clurch\u201D\u2014the word that the Minister used: \u201Clurch\u201D\u2014back to the word \u201Cpromote\u201D from \u201Cmanage\u201D. We still don\u2019t have a clear answer for that on this side of the Chamber. When he talks about lurching and energy policy lurching backwards and forwards, does he not acknowledge that this piece of legislation is lurching in the other direction? That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EMy second question\u2014and I\u2019m not sure if this fits with the Standing Orders but I will ask it none the less\u2014is: the Minister spoke about standing on the podium with the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern in 2018. He confessed to the fact that that was the worst decision that he made. How can he justify that when he was actually in Cabinet and made the decision? I know it\u2019s probably not something that he can answer in this debate, but I don\u2019t understand why he stood\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a7044194ddb4bd5bffc7918847fbe71\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance? Relevance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a33e771ac9b4b88ab9bc304e1d3cd06\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: The relevance is that the Minister stood in support of legislation that he believes \u201Clurched\u201D, and I want to know why he says that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe next question I have for the Minister is\u2014the word that he used was \u201Cdewy-eyed expressions\u201D. Now, I don\u2019t actually understand what he means by that. I may be a bit too young for him. In his first contribution he talked about that. How is that actually relevant to this piece of legislation and this part of the work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe other question I want to ask the Minister\u2014because he has continued to go on and on and on and on about the cancellation in 2018. Now, I\u2019d like him to table anything relevant to the cancellation, because if I look through the legislation in 2018, 2019, if I look through everything, Labour never cancelled\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203b04fb7fd484a4dbc36a043e294c828\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Labour never did anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222055bdf2d9a2425db242dd29adbf6648\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: We said a lot of things, thank you very much. I\u2019m asking the Minister to actually give us some relevant information on that, because it\u2019s not clear to me in terms of what the Minister is saying when it comes to this\u2014the fact of, in clause 4, \u201CSection 1A amended (Purpose)\u201D, amending \u201Cmanage\u201D to \u201Cpromote\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe other question which is related to this is about when he says New Zealand is \u201Copen for business\u201D. I am unsure what he actually means by that when we look at some of the industries that actually have been successful in terms of their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI also would like to have a response to my colleague the Hon Megan Woods, who has already asked about the period of time it takes from discovery to actually pumping that oil or gas out of the ground\u2014what that time line is, if the Minister could explain it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EMy final question is around what we talked about around a line in the sand in 2018\u2014that he stood beside the Prime Minister of the time. Why does the Minister think it is important to go backwards; to \u201Clurch\u201D\u2014the word that he used\u2014back into oil and gas when it still exists and it\u2019s still creating income for the country, creating income for Taranaki, creating income for the taxpayer? Then, when we look at things like solar, like geothermal, like green hydrogen, like wave energy, like tidal and wave energy, like offshore wind, the Minister seems obsessed with oil and gas. He talked about being \u201Cthe Emperor of Energy\u201D; he talked about people calling him \u201Cthe Emperor of Energy\u201D. My final question to the Minister this evening, in my contribution, is: who is calling him \u201Cthe Emperor of Energy\u201D? Is that his funders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268f8e6ab4c834d6e99fabdb25b840c63\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3ace7d81ba84f67a539d6ffc118e5b2\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Willis. Scott Willis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224060f82b75b04159a36fd7d139935c95\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: Francisco\u2014oh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022fde672aa35374fde9b0bdf5916919025\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fde672aa35374fde9b0bdf5916919025\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Scott Willis. My travelling companion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022462ee871da9440c482d4d5aea2e6370f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022462ee871da9440c482d4d5aea2e6370f\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green): \u003C/span\u003ECould have been \u201CFrancisco Willis\u201D, but that would have been\u2014thank you, Mr Chair. My apologies. I know it is\u2014what\u2019s the time\u20149.50 p.m. It\u2019s late at night, and I am not going to address the Minister\u2019s climate denialism, as interesting as it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI do want to look at clause 4, the amended purpose, as has been addressed, because I was interested to hear that the Minister for Resources believes that we\u2019re hermetically sealed in terms of our energy. We have never been hermetically sealed. We may have had an abundance of renewables, and we did something very well, even under the Muldoon days, when we built so much renewable electricity generation, but then we\u2019ve rested on our laurels, and I\u2019m keen to hear from the Minister where the energy strategy is at. Where is New Zealand\u2019s energy strategy? Do we have a national energy strategy to be delivered before Christmas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThis is a really critical question, because what I hear from the energy sector is a need for consistency and a need for an understanding about what infrastructure builds we\u2019re going to have. I have heard from the Minister that there are problems. We all understand there are problems. The Minister has even referred to the Electricity Authority as a \u201Cchocolate teapot\u201D\u2014not working for the benefit of the community\u2014and I think we could have some agreement that there needs to be change in the electricity sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThere is a bill, for example, called the Electricity Industry (Separation of Generation and Retail Businesses) Amendment Bill that the Minister would be free to pick up to enhance and more rapidly build the renewables that we have and to enable better competition in the market to ensure that we fast track the doubling or tripling of renewable electricity supply that is called for but that is not actually enabled through anything this Government is doing, because this Government seems fixated on fossil fuels. It talks about renewables but wants to fast track fossil fuels, so there\u2019s a real inconsistency here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is about the energy strategy: are we going to see something delivered that will ensure not fossil fuels fast tracked but the doubling or tripling of renewable electricity generation, which is the other purpose this Government has told us they\u2019re interested in? If we could see something that said, \u201CInstead of fossil fuels, we are going to double or triple renewable electricity generation\u201D, then I can guarantee that the Greens would be in support of something that would do that. At the moment, we don\u2019t see anything down that pathway, so I\u2019m really, really keen to hear about where we\u2019re going and how we can be open for business to assist new wind development. Is there going to be a challenge with our minerals extraction that will put at risk some wind development? Perhaps the Minister might like to respond to that, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EComing back to the ability for us to build the renewables that we need so that we do not need to dig up minerals, so that we do not need to dig up fossil fuels, and so that we do become a hermetically sealed, energy-sovereign nation and can electrify our economy and ensure affordable, cleaner, cheaper, smarter electricity for everyone, will we be able to have an energy strategy before Christmas? Will we be able to reform the market to enable the faster build of renewable electricity generation? Will we be able to see that we\u00A0are focused on electrifying our economy based on renewables, rather than turning back to some bizarre past where we didn\u2019t care about the climate\u2014because those days are gone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe do care. We care because we\u2019ve got children and we\u2019ve got grandchildren\u2014some of us\u2014and we want to ensure that there\u2019s a future for them. I\u2019m really interested in hearing how we\u2019re going to support the transformation of our energy sector into something that will deliver for not just this generation, not just the next generation, but seven generations into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022475936ea85274b2bb1110b94183f3757\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022475936ea85274b2bb1110b94183f3757\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Sir, I\u2019m conscious that time is winding down. I just want to repeat again: I don\u2019t want to broaden this debate, because we\u2019ll lose the focus on the genius of this bill. What I would like to share with the committee is that this bill will have a Government policy statement, but this bill is only one contributor to energy security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, when I was invited to hold this role as the associate energy Minister and Minister of\u2014for\u2014Resources\u2014because I\u2019m not \u201Cof\u201D resources; I\u2019m \u201Cfor\u201D resources\u2014I came across a cobweb-riddled report that had been neglected and overlooked by the last regime. In fact, it was almost infested with the katip\u014D spider. Now, after I got rid of that climate-riddled, exaggerated, hyperbolic critter, I found that there was a report that the last regime never followed up for deep, critical, magma, close, geothermal energy. It has fallen to me to identify how deeply relevant that source of energy is. They had tried plaintively in the face of the last regime, sought incessantly to talk to a former Minister of science and energy, but they were rejected because it did not suit the ideology. So, yes, I admit that this bill does turn over ideology and that it replaces it with practical, adaptable strategies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3f483553fa74bf4b2911697fb1d1181\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s simply not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022233e6330074c479b8c0a33b8cd0bafef\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is true that there are challenges with emissions, there are challenges with policies that are being imposed upon us, such as an ill-conceived deal that Jacinda Ardern agreed to that we\u2019ve had to make the best of with the EU, but we must use our own resources to boost our resilience and maintain our productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EAll that this innocuous piece of legislation does is restore to New Zealanders what they enjoyed four or five years ago, to recreate a level of certainty and confidence so that we can keep the lights on without importing Indonesian coal. What possibly could be wrong with that?  That is why\u2014and I won\u2019t go on too much longer\u2014the word \u201Cpromote\u201D is an active, doing word. A doing word is not some word like an adjective that you describe everything; it\u2019s an active verb: you go and do something. You get out there and you ensure that people are instilled with confidence, as all the industry is\u2014and they most certainly will be when this bill passes. Thank you very much, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9f65914dd674b91ba16ab3b54e6af2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9f65914dd674b91ba16ab3b54e6af2d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I will just say to the Minister that, if he\u2019s going to make wide-ranging statements, I wouldn\u2019t make too many plans for later tomorrow morning, because he is introducing a lot of material that the Chair has no choice but to allow and to broaden the scope of this part of the bill. I will certainly be briefing the incoming Chair tomorrow morning on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EGiven that, members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The committee will resume at 9 a.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20241119ef3887bcdaa24f8e939be4aecafcb9b9000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002228f213c03a2e44db9bd6848e84523666\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 19 NOVEMBER 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022433f7971c7fc4370918345d9330b849a\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 20 November 2024)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002250c5d144751c4dbb83d61fbff3187298\u0022\u003ECrown Minerals Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002210fa24d6afb0459798a95d6e49971f70\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ed670eb23044f15b8f96326d8af9bdd\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to purpose provision and Parts 1 and 1A of principal Act (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002255b67ce280134f3084d1758427e801cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255b67ce280134f3084d1758427e801cd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. Members, when the committee suspended last night, it was debating Part 1 of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 4 to 13, \u201CAmendments to purpose provision and Parts 1 and 1A of principal Act.\u201D The question, again, is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022058ec726fa5f4e54862de3ba6d73888b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022058ec726fa5f4e54862de3ba6d73888b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As you say, last night when the committee concluded, we were having a very broad-ranging debate in terms of the purpose of the bill. There are still many questions that we have from material that the Minister has introduced into this debate around energy security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ETo start off, this morning, I just do want to move on to another couple of pieces of Part\u00A01 of this Act, one of which is the clauses in this bill that pertain to the tier 3 permits that are covered off in Part 1. Now, in terms of the size of the tier 3 permits, one of the things that we heard at select committee\u2014we had many people asking why it was that the size of the area that was eligible for a tier 3 permit was decided on; that this seemed quite large in terms of what would be seen as a hobbyist permit, and some of the submitters were questioning that. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister about the policy context, the advice he received\u2014what was the policy context for settling on the size of the permit area that is before us in this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other important piece that we will have many questions on in this part of the bill, in Part 1, is the provisions that are in here in clause 12, and that is around the Minister having the power to issue a Government policy statement. Now, this is a new mechanism that will come into play through this legislation; we haven\u2019t previously had this. Obviously, we have Government policy statements in a range of areas, but I think there are some questions, given that this is a new mechanism that could be brought into play, for the Minister to inform the committee on. First of all, what is the time frame that the Minister is thinking of? Has he begun work on the Government policy statement, and when would he be thinking of introducing this? If the work hasn\u2019t begun, where in his work programme does this work figure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other important question we have is that a Government policy statement is a place where a Government rightly sets out its strategic priorities and the work programme and the way in which it\u2019s going to get to its outcomes. I\u2019m assuming that the Government policy statement would be aligned with the purposes of this bill, but we also have another piece of legislation in this jurisdiction, and that is our climate response legislation that sets out very closely our emissions reduction plans. I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister how it is that he intends to ensure that we have synergy between these two strategic documents that any Government will need to work from. How will the Government policy statement interact with the emissions reduction plans that the Government does adopt? We know, of course, that the Government is due to adopt new emissions reduction plans by the end of this year for emissions budget 3. What work has the Minister done to ensure that we are aligning what is happening under this legislation with that other strategic intent of Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we know, from advice from the Minister\u2019s officials, is that this legislation is going to increase our greenhouse gas emissions. There have been several pieces of advice that have been provided to the committee in terms of what the impacts on emissions budgets 1 and emissions budgets 2 will be, but, of course, we have emissions budget 3 coming\u2014and the extent to which the Minister has been working with his Cabinet colleagues to ensure that there can be those interactions and those alignments. The advice that we received from officials is that there will be a million megatonnes of carbon dioxide in emissions, as compared to the baseline for the second emissions budget for 2025 to 2030, and another 0.6\u00A0to 1.4 megatonnes for the third emissions budget. What mechanisms will be in place in that Government policy statement to ensure there is alignment with different pieces of Government policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAs I said, there are a range of other questions that are still outstanding in regard to changing the purpose statement. Certainly, the Minister opened up a range of areas which just sparked the inquisitive nature of the Opposition and a range of questions that we\u2019ve had time to percolate overnight that we\u2019ll come back to on that material. Those are two very specific questions around clause 12 and the tier 3 permits, which are covered off in new section 2BA, inserted by clause 7. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba691ad99b904c4485e79f5b5081252f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba691ad99b904c4485e79f5b5081252f\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Yes, I just want to echo my colleague Megan Woods\u2019 expression of the usefulness of the Minister opening the conversation more broadly. One thing I wanted to specifically pick up on was the frequent justification for this policy being around the so-called energy crisis. A big part of that assertion\u2014the deeper detail of that\u2014isn\u2019t gone into. One of the causes of the energy challenges we have is to do with the infrastructure around gas and its declining state.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, the other question that the Minister raised last night was the increase in the importation of Indonesian coal. I wonder if he has available the latest figures on Indonesian coal imports for this year, and whether he could confirm that, in fact, they are significantly lower than they have been historically. If we actually delve into this question of a problem of energy infrastructure and signals being sent in the energy sector as to the trajectory of New Zealand\u2019s energy intentions, it is true, and the Minister rightly points out, that the effect of the ban on offshore oil and gas exploration was to send a very strong signal to the industry that there was not a future in that industry. By doing that, it opens the landscape to those other forms of energy that we are interested in: renewable energy being the obvious one. The effect of this legislation, I put it to the Minister to respond, is that it is basically sending a signal to the fossil fuel industry that we would like them to be back in business and we would like them to invest in new infrastructure, and the effect of that will be to lock us into decades more dependency on gas and oil and coal, which the Minister also advocates for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EOne of the immediate effects of those signals to the market, if you like, in his capacity as the \u201CM\u0101tua of Mining\u201D, in his own terminology, is that Minister Jones has scared away the offshore wind industry, because he has so forthrightly advocated for deep-sea mining, sea-bed mining, off Taranaki, with huge destructive impact on the seafloor. The wind industry explicitly made it clear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1ef25ccd9d1447ca785580c1f9dc04e\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance? Relevance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6d5cdca37f54b168e96f7e5c61b945b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I deem it\u2019s relevant\u2014if he\u2019s comparing it to windfarms, he\u2019s able to ask that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228780d519444c4a0ab8c2ffccdd03d5ed\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister did really elucidate at length about the energy system being the justification for this legislation. The effect, I put it to you, Minister, of this law is to send a message, in fact, to the renewable energy industry, and certainly in the instance of the offshore wind industry, that there will be new investment in gas and oil\u2014we\u2019re back into the old burning fossil fuels mind-set; we\u2019re not so committed to the actual transition to renewable energy. That was the most powerful impact of the decision made in 2018; the bolder decision made, consistent with our climate commitments, was to say, \u201CWe are saying there will be no new exploration for oil and gas and coal.\u201D That\u2019s my first key question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to pick up on is the specific one that my colleague Megan Woods just raised about the tier 3 categorisation permitting quite huge areas of land to be mined for gold more readily\u201450 hectares. Now, what is mining for gold, albeit with sluicing boxes and 10-horsepower machinery as a maximum? What does mining for gold in a 50-hectare area of riverbed look like, Minister? How disturbing and impactful is that? And if you\u2019re going to visit your local river, what is the effect on the other uses of that river, for recreational purposes, but also, more importantly, for the biodiversity that lives and depends on that river, of some local character being able to turn up there with his 10-horsepower diesel engine and dig up the floor of the river to mine for gold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251301ccebf96496a887ff0a804b5cd56\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: This is getting a bit broad of the conversation\u2014can we link it back to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b01594a89cd444f8d962e620640fbbe\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e04f597b472a41b7afc2f191b8fa7c39\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s tier 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b818ad413f4cb0800f4e5a0a41c043\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. Thank you; OK. Thank you, I stand corrected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220993513024f74c98a7df7ea834636abb\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, can I just complete, Madam Chair\u2014make another call, Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d14462d1f8e4cab908d499f5e4eb927\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you can. Sorry, I stand corrected on that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9ea336d1b204b87a0321ffed3ed2628\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Part 1 has the permission for easier permitting of goldmining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228f99c46afcb4c6a929bdb023081f729\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Right, OK. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eee8f57be844c5094c8107569fb348b\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: There is a quite huge area that miners will be allowed to exploit. It creates a new and quicker permit pathway, but what is the evaluation that has been taken on the impact of that, of this supposedly small-scale goldmine that, in fact, covers potentially vast areas of highly vulnerable or highly sensitive ecological regions, and the obvious thing being riverbeds? That is the place where people are going to want to do their gold sluicing, use their riffle boxes, set up their 10-horsepower engine, and what is the wisdom of allowing that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIs it the expectation of the public, Minister, that they are going to walk down to their local beach to perhaps go and do some whitebaiting or do some fishing or simply have a swim in the local river, and find that somebody\u2019s been given this very quick-to-get permit that allows them to be shovelling through the river bed looking for flakes of gold with a 10-horsepower engine banging away in the background? Is that really something that the\u00A0Minister wants to be encouraging, and is that really something that should be so readily permitted without input from other members of the community and other members of the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt could well be that it seems like a low-level activity but, in fact, has quite a significant localised impact on people who also have interests in that particular river, and that particular riverbed, not to mention what the ecological evaluations of that are. What was the advice the Minister received on the impacts on our vulnerable fauna and flora that are dependent on those freshwater river ecosystems of this sort of goldmining that the Minister is advocating? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002284ca918d770044c199e10a0ba89a01de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284ca918d770044c199e10a0ba89a01de\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I think it\u2019s important that we respect the conventions governing contributions\u2014and they need to be tightened up. They need to come back and focus on the black letter meaning of the proposed law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, the former Minister, the Hon Dr Megan Woods, posed a couple of questions. Let me start with the Government policy statement. Obviously, the passage of the legislation, as the member rightly identifies, will give status to this new instrument\u2014and I need do nothing else than direct her attention to the relevant part\u2014and this enables the Minister to initiate a body of work to create such an instrument. That body of work, in many respects, will be at the discretion of the Minister, and this Minister is terribly overworked at the moment on shepherding through this bill despite considerable opposition, inversely related in some cases to the content of the bill. But I direct her attention to new section 12(2A). Now, why it\u2019s written in a slightly different colour means that it\u2019s a fresh addition, and what it says is that the \u201CMinister considers appropriate\u201D. The Minister at this stage has not decided to initiate consultation to create such a body until such time as the law is passed. I don\u2019t need to elaborate, because I covered last night what may or may not be relevant in terms of the broader debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn respect of the point about tier 3, I think the tier 3 references tidy up an area where risks are minimal and potential is broad, because we are going through a period of time where this Government believes that there is more that can be contributed\u2014which is why we\u2019re passing this bill\u2014to our economic endeavours from oil and gas and minerals activity. That\u2019s the philosophical basis; that\u2019s the mandate that we have. Now, it\u2019s arguable as to what is an appropriate size; sadly, I probably think it\u2019s too small, but being from time to time of moderate character, I followed advice and I think that it\u2019s a good balance between stripping red tape but enabling entrepreneurialism and those who are willing to risk their own time and resources at a relatively harmless level to boost the prospects of that part of New Zealand. There\u2019s really not much more I can say to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I\u2019ll just wind up on: this legislation is not called the \u201CClimate Response Act\u201D. That legislation is under the leadership of another Minister. Now, in certain nightmarish moments, I do contemplate being the Minister of Climate Change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225000542234604a0ba0c97d875befeec9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Nightmarish indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3b08813a0649889c083c0adf3c96c6\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: There you go\u2014there you go; I defer to brighter minds than my good self. For those reasons, I\u2019m saying that we\u2019ll park the elements of that Act and come back to this Act. This Act simply opens the gate, legitimises, tries to reinvigorate by creating certainty in the statute for those who may or may not use their own money, their own time, their own entrepreneurial energy to make a go of our indigenous resources. That\u2019s all the statute does, and all the Minister\u2019s doing is promoting that because this is a legitimate part of our energy security journey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022efbb40cf619e4ee88b55e3cf08c11ab1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efbb40cf619e4ee88b55e3cf08c11ab1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister for his contribution there, and while I appreciate it, I\u2019m sure there are many\u2014and indeed the planet\u2014that appreciate that he\u2019s not the Minister of Climate Change. That was not the question that was put to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister was asked how the instrument of a Government policy statement (GPS) in this area would interact with other legislative instruments, such as the Climate Change Response Act and the emissions reduction plans that exist under that legislation. Ministers who have responsibility for particular instruments that they are putting in place through legislation do have to think about how they interact across the broader suite of Government and other policies that the Government has. While no one is suggesting that he is the Minister responsible for the emissions reduction plans, it is important for this committee to understand how it is that the instrument of the Government policy statement in this area will interact with those instruments. Surely, the Government has thought this through, and the committee needs to know what the mechanisms are that will be put in place, when there are considerations of what will be in those very detailed emissions reduction plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI do have some further questions pertaining to the GPS. One of the things that we know is that, across Government, there are a range of Government policy statements in a range of areas, some of which contain mandatory requirements for consultation and some have discretionary requirements for consultation. The legislation that we have before us is silent on whether or not it will be a mandatory or a discretionary consultation requirement that will sit with this Government policy statement. I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister where his thinking is. What does the consultation look like? Will it be a mandatory regime or will it be a discretionary regime? Who will be consulted? What will be the opportunities for public input into that? While it may not be something that the Minister is planning on implementing tomorrow, as this committee is considering whether or not we should put in place the power for a Minister to have an instrument such as a Government policy statement in this area, we do need to understand how it is that the public are going to have input into that. We do know that the regulator will be the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), as it stands at the moment. That will be the responsible agency. What are the conversations that he\u2019s had with MBIE around the consultation obligations, and, also specifically, who will those consultations be with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the other questions that I want to come back to the Minister on: the Minister talked at length last night, and he\u2019s come back to it this morning, around the issue that he sees in the changing of the purpose statement. What we\u2019re doing in Part 1 of this bill, that little change as he sees it\u2014we on this side of the Chamber would differ in terms of the purpose of the bill as being instrumental to energy security in New Zealand. He referred to it last night; he\u2019s come back to it this morning. My colleague Steve Abel asked him the question around volumes of Indonesian coal\u2014a claim that he and many of his colleagues actually repeatedly made\u2014but there\u2019s been a range of data that\u2019s been put up to debunk the myth that members of this Government keep touting. It\u2019s a very thin reason\u2014but doesn\u2019t really stand up to scrutiny\u2014for some of these legislative changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EGiven that the Minister sees that this change that he\u2019s putting in is vital to New Zealand\u2019s energy security\u2014we\u2019re all concerned about New Zealand\u2019s energy security\u2014the question I have for the Minister is whether he has received advice from his officials that any new oil or gas, in particular gas, that could be found through these changes would not be available until 2035, and that this would be the expected time frame in which any new resource would be available to be used. How does the Minister see this solving New Zealand\u2019s immediate energy challenges? What is he working with colleagues on? Obviously, he\u2019s not the Minister for Energy\u2014he\u2019s the Minister for Resources\u2014but what is he working with colleagues on in terms of that more short-term piece? Quite clearly, this is not the quick fix that the Government has tried to sell. Make no mistake about it, the Minister was very clear last night that he\u2019s taking his advice from industry. He\u2019s not listening to officials. He\u2019s disagreeing with that and taking advice of what the industry are telling us. I think this committee needs to understand, if we\u2019re not likely to see any of this resource until 2035, what it is that we\u2019re looking to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAlso, I would like to hear the answer to the question that Steve Abel put around volumes of Indonesian coal. This is a much-touted reason case for why this would be used, but I think what we\u2019ve heard in terms of actual facts that have been put out there, not by the Opposition but by various independent commentators, is that this is just simply a myth. I would actually like to hear from the Minister on that. I know we\u2019ve heard through the case of interjections from many members of the Opposition that they\u2019re exploring other options such as nuclear power. We heard last night from one of the members over on the Opposition benches. I\u2019d like to hear what it is that the Minister is thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00220426d90603fa459c8aa2503b92b44ceb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220426d90603fa459c8aa2503b92b44ceb\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to clarify the interjection from the member opposite: no, we do not support nuclear energy, you\u2019ll be happy to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d08314fe80244426b0a6537679552571\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: You were talking about it, though. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce66d6a0e53b4fb7b3c76c249f17a7a0\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Because one of your good people mentioned nuclear energy, and I responded to that and said nuclear energy is not a good idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e17d8876b831469eb3132c450e6342fd\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, Steve!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236840e6928154b6385dd379beb104f85\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, come on, Miles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225422f0f5220a442c931a5579661455fe\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc6999c6ea854bed82d0de6e91050082\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, thank you, Minister\u2014order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022236228fdee1b4a82895c90b55729ec8d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll call order, thank you, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecefa412679d42418f7b8ba32bd1651e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I have a couple of amendments to put up relating to Part 1. I just want to return to the broad point about the very negative impact on the energy sector of reinstating the ban on offshore oil and gas exploration. It definitely sends a message\u2014to the world, in fact\u2014that we are not serious about the energy transition. Given that is so touted as the basis for this, I have an amendment to clause 4 to put that we firstly\u2014and this was discussed last night also\u2014get away from this idea that there is anything good about promoting that most harmful substance in terms of climate damage, which is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dce0e065d87f45bbb2540e1b4921dab8\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Coal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e50573ac27534d348055762090830caa\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014coal, and oil and gas. The members opposite are saying that coal is the worst. That is a very interesting assertion. I wonder if the Minister can tell us, in terms of that assertion, whether in fact, once you account for fugitive emissions from the extraction of fossil gas, it is a higher carbon intensive fuel than coal. And what about how the Minister mentioned important details. Last night, the Minister mentioned liquefied natural gas (LNG). The Minister specifically talked about LNG imports. What advice does the Minister have on the impact of the emissions of LNG, and how does it compare to coal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022759e2caed12b4473802e525f4198287a\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What about indigenous gas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecff4bd878ee4342926b6ccac73359dc\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Indigenous gas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d740eb4422a1421795ea684a9f30c097\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Fossil gas, you mean, yeah?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f00f2699a1d47b7ab082510fdcf9a0e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I mean fossil gas. That\u2019s a ridiculous term\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225af0058ee9b460ea1f129cf372039e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Questions will be directed to the Minister, not to each other. Thank you. That\u2019s the purpose of the committee stage. Interjections are fine, but I don\u2019t expect members to be answering questions. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220afb074e87594474b1dfc1ee18c395a6\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba1786700c5a4384a1d9990e903b125c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022227b92a6d87f492f9c20a19fbe913131\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Can I clarify, Madam Chair: is it correct that I have an ability to respond to an interjection from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b58e9f7da14f428fae9c23a9bf4b02e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy about that, but there\u2019s no obligation on the member to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205bac074a54a4525826cd6da14f12791\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that, thank you. I just think there are some myths being touted about the nature of our energy sector that are important to clarify. Fossil gas is a major source of greenhouse gas emissions. It should correctly be called fossil gas, as opposed to the other sort of gas that the members like to give special status to, which is biogenic methane, which is a particle and it has exactly the same effect on climate change as fossil methane. The members opposite like to separate out fossil methane from biogenic methane. Rather than call it natural gas, let\u2019s refer to fossil gas and biogenic methane, if that\u2019s how you want to categorise it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proposing that we remove this amendment which turns from \u201Cmanage\u201D to \u201Cpromote\u201D, as this legislation does, and we keep it as \u201Cmanage\u201D. It is appropriate, certainly in the case of the climate crisis, for us to be not promoting fossil gas exploration\u2014that\u2019s the first amendment. The second one is to clause 5. Currently, the overarching effect of this legislation, the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, is to amend the Act to expand exploration beyond onshore Taranaki, which is the current restriction. This amendment that I\u2019m putting up to clause 5 would in fact retain the Act\u2019s definition of the onshore Taranaki region, thereby not make the expansion into offshore oil and gas exploration. It is a bold amendment. It is one which I call on the Minister to seriously consider, for the greater good of the community and the climate and life on this planet\u2014that we actually need to not be reopening that 4 million square kilometres of exclusive economic zone to the interests of vested overseas fossil oil and gas companies. That is a disastrous move\u2014Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9a3b3496ea42ef8650da56e0ce3a0b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0f59a6cb178496387c20c873b30fc1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0f59a6cb178496387c20c873b30fc1a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Abel\u2019s actually made a call for another call, and I believe you\u2019ve got another Amendment Paper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f02e2d263cc3430aac98d43782582a8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f02e2d263cc3430aac98d43782582a8b\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate that. The amendment is to retain the definition of onshore Taranaki rather than get rid of it, so that we keep in place that world-leading ban on offshore exploration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe final amendment would extend that principle\u2014because we\u2019re talking up to clause\u00A014\u2014to clause 14, clause 15, and clause 16. It would delete clause 14, page 7, lines 35 and 36; clause 15, page 8, lines 1 and 2; and clause 16, page 8, lines 345 and 346. It removes the provisions relating to the repeal of references to the onshore Taranaki region. It would thereby retain this prohibition on oil and gas drilling and prevent future oil and gas exploration outside onshore Taranaki. In fact, we need to also be not issuing new permits for onshore drilling in Taranaki, for onshore exploration and fracking. There is strong opposition to this, which we\u2019ve heard for many years from people in Taranaki, to the ongoing exploitation of their region for gas, and that is something that also should have been prohibited and should be prohibited. But, in terms of this immediate legislation, these amendments would give effect to not getting rid of that ban. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00224dc20c9a39f946a19e885d15888b47c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dc20c9a39f946a19e885d15888b47c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a couple of very specific questions\u2014it won\u2019t be a long call\u2014for the Minister in the chair. This is in relation to the tier 3 permits. Clause 6(2A) says, \u201CIn this Act, Tier 3 permit means a permit that\u2014(a) authorises mining for gold in the bed of a river, or on the foreshore; and (b) does not authorise mining for any other mineral;\u201D. One of the issues that we have under the Ng\u0101i Tahu Claims Settlement Act, of course, is the pounamu extraction in the South Island. What I would like to know from the Minister\u2014we know that alluvial mining is one of the critical areas in terms of pounamu extraction in the South Island rivers\u2014is whether or not pounamu would be covered under these tier 3 permits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002275737bd07e924389b69ef3789168df03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275737bd07e924389b69ef3789168df03\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. It\u2019s interesting to listen carefully to the debate this evening and this morning and over a few questions for the Minister. I understand that we have traversed it, but I\u2019d just like the Minister to be really clear with the committee and with the public in terms of, right at the start there, when it talks about moving it from \u201Cmanage\u201D to \u201Cpromote\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, last night the Minister said that this is to signal that New Zealand is open for business, but then, when we look at the regulatory impact statements, we look at a lot of the paperwork that came through in select committee, I want the Minister on record to confirm with this committee the reason he wants to promote this industry when the evidence shows\u2014and if you want to look at the regulatory impact statement, amendments to the Crown Minerals Act relating to petroleum exploration and mining, which is on the Table in front of the Minister, in terms of page 17, it has a very clear graph which shows in terms of the decline. If I look at it carefully, it has been on the decline for a long time, but we look at that peak of 2014 and it has declined rapidly since then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo often in this House, the Minister has accused myself and others of being \u201Cwoke\u201D\u2014which I\u2019m very proud of, by the way; very proud of being woke. If you know the history of the word and where it comes from, it\u2019s actually an honour to be called woke, and I appreciate the Minister calling me that, because it is an honour if you understand that. But the question I have\u2014and the reason I\u2019m asking the Minister about this \u201Cpromote\u201D thing\u2014is because it feels to me like it is the Minister virtue signalling. It\u2019s appealing to the Minister\u2019s voter base and, I guess, to the coalition agreement, but when you look at the hard evidence, when you look at the information that is in front of the Minister, and you look at the evidence that was in front of the select committee, when you look at all of the evidence\u2014if you want to do the work and do the research\u2014the fact that you want to bring \u201Cpromote\u201D back in is something that actually isn\u2019t possible, because what are you promoting? That is my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAt least with \u201Cmanage\u201D\u2014because manage is also an active word where it\u2019s actually, \u201CHow do we as Government ensure we carefully and sustainably and in a way that actually is looking to the future ensure that we are looking after our people and our planet?\u201D I really want to understand why on earth the Minister wants to put \u201Cpromote\u201D back in there. Why would he do that, when I hope that he clearly knows that there aren\u2019t going to be people rushing back and going around the world to do it. An example is OMV, who, obviously, is one of the big players. It has been on the market for sale, and it\u2019s not because of New Zealand; they have looked at their whole portfolio and are looking at greening what they do and looking at their whole Asia-Pacific portfolio, looking at moving on, not because of Aotearoa but because they are looking to the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI really want to understand from the Minister: is it virtue signalling? Is it just because it\u2019s a coalition agreement? Is it just because it\u2019s income for his mates? I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t understand. If you can look at the hard evidence of what is happening in terms of fossil gases, it seems absurd and outrageous for him to put that word back in. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00222593fe38cfda42f68dfcb948fe511ae0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222593fe38cfda42f68dfcb948fe511ae0\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019re getting to a point now where repetition is defining the contributions. I think I\u2019ve given, with the greatest respect, a very lucid response to the former Minister, but, unlike other contributions, she has actually posed quite a coherent question. She\u2019s posed the question as to who owns pounamu, greenstone, and she\u2019s correctly identified that, through the Doug Graham, Jim Bolger Government\u2019s full and final settlement with the Ng\u0101i Tahu tribe, pounamu is vested in the Ng\u0101i Tahu people. In the event that a fossicker and in the event that a long-suffering miner\u2014sadly, undervalued by former Governments but turbocharged by the matua. They have no right to take, sell, or extract that pounamu, and there are already cases where legislation has been called upon and people have been penalised for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn respect of a reference that was made to coal, levels of utilisation, for fear of protracting more irrelevancy I invite the members to write me a letter and I will respond formally with those details, because I think it will bring in the broader debate a level of clarity sadly missing from the Opposition\u2019s conception of energy security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7a7da737c164fd3874fcbb9a251b2c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7a7da737c164fd3874fcbb9a251b2c1\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002258884b12a1a34cd1a85ade13cf9873fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258884b12a1a34cd1a85ade13cf9873fc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll call the Hon Dr Megan Woods. We are homing in on a couple of things now. I have been listening to last night\u2019s debate and this morning\u2019s, and we\u2019ve covered a wide range of issues. I\u2019m looking for new information backed up by clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00229bb5d48471d448e895d6895016094dd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bb5d48471d448e895d6895016094dd3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the Minister for that clarification around the pounamu collection. It\u2019s always a hot issue in the South Island, around how our mining legislation interacts with that Ng\u0101i Tahu settlement Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI am going to ask a very specific question pertaining to the work programme for tier 3 permits, which are covered off in clause 7, \u201CNew section 2BA inserted (Work programmes for Tier 3 permits)\u201D, but I would just like to remind the Minister that there are a couple of questions that are still outstanding that we on this side of the Chamber are very eager to understand. One is the way in which the Government policy statement will interact with other Government instruments, like the emissions reduction plan (ERP). We\u2019ve had the Minister address that and say he\u2019s not responsible for the ERP. We absolutely accept that, but what we want to know is how the instrument that the Minister is putting forward in this legislation will interact with those other Government instruments that they need to work with as a Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the work programmes for the tier 3 permits, it\u2019s very specific. The permit holder can mine for gold\u2014we\u2019ve established that. Section 2BA(1)(b) states, \u201Cthe permit holder may only use the following equipment: (i) unpowered hand tools: (ii) riffle boxes and associated equipment: (iii) powered equipment not exceeding a combined total of 10 horsepower (or the equivalent of 10 horsepower) at any one time: (iv) other similar equipment that is consistent with small-scale non-commercial gold mining:\u201D Now, while there is a great deal of specificity within these provisions, I think there are some questions. There\u2019s quite a lot that is in there in terms of what that could be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019d be interested to know about the 10 horsepower, in terms of the powered equipment not exceeding that. What was the policy rationale for settling on that as the level at which the equipment could be used within these tier 3 permit areas? Is it that there is belief that there\u2019ll be minimal environmental disturbance? Is it the most efficacious tool for that type of mining? What was the policy rationale that led the Minister to make this inclusion, this very specific inclusion, in the legislation? And while we have that very specific information in new section 2BA, it also says \u201C(iv) other similar equipment that is consistent with small-scale non-commercial gold mining:\u201D. I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister, while he is discussing with his officials, what were the kinds of other equipment that were covered off here? I think it\u2019s important for the committee to understand that, because this part of the legislation brings it really tightly in and defines very closely the power that this equipment can have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe then have \u201Cany other similar equipment\u201D. What does the Government have in mind when they\u2019re inserting this provision, and why is it needed given the provision above it that does give very tight restrictions around the power that can be used? Then there is subsection (2)(b)(iv), \u201Cequipment permitted by regulations:\u201D What regulations is this referring to? Can the Minister give a list of what the other regulations are that are contributing to this? Then there is, in subsection (2)(c), \u201Ca work programme that is otherwise in accordance with requirements specified in regulations.\u201D I assume that will pertain to subsection (1)(b)(v), but I\u2019m really looking to get into the detail of what is contained in clause 7, which inserts that new section. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2f6f83e60e24752a5951a7ad404fa80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2f6f83e60e24752a5951a7ad404fa80\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m going to be very specific about these points in the bill because I\u2019m hearing what you\u2019re saying and we have a number of amendments that are specifically proposed for changes in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe one that I\u2019m talking about is a new section 12C. This is on page 7 of the bill, to do with Government policy statements (GPS). Now, this is a really interesting change to the Crown Minerals Act that I\u2019d really like to hear the Minister\u2019s thoughts on, because, prior to the change in 2023, the purpose of the Act was to promote prospecting for, exploration for, and mining of Crown-owned minerals for the benefit of New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293025217778e4e5ca54b20feb82c4c65\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2019s actually addressed the GPS, so I perhaps think the member could ask some really specific questions around the changes in the Amendment Paper that the member would wish to see. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220753e3389d5e436b8192e9d4de736467\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that guidance, Madam Chair. What this Amendment Paper seeks to do is, basically, amend the provisions relating to the Government policy statement and introduce a new requirement to publicly consult on any new GPS that may be put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, why this is really important and why I\u2019d love the Minister\u2019s comments on this, about the public notification aspect, is that we heard really clearly at the Environment Committee just the other day from the Climate Commission how off track, for our second and third emissions budgets, we are heading. I would love to hear the Minister\u2019s thoughts as to whether\u2014because this has such serious implications for our climate emissions and the public\u2019s concern about whether we will be on track to meet those emissions\u2014there is a case for the Minister to consider public notification of this Government policy statement, if he is to actually put one in place. If so, what would be the time lines that the Minister is actually considering to put such a policy statement in place? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00220dc3d924a83f4e3b980d32190c96275d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dc3d924a83f4e3b980d32190c96275d\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Like my colleague Lan Pham, I do have a very specific question in relation to section 1A, the amended purpose, and the proposed amendment from my colleague Steve Abel, which is to replace \u201Cpromote\u201D with \u201Cmanage\u201D. I want to come back and do a little bit of a deep dive, but very briefly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a459a6a28f4417a8c341d7e56e6e96c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d05008c2d44e7c9cc8ab789a0f356c\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014into the Minister\u2019s interest in super-critical and super-hot geothermal resource, which he mentioned last night. I think this does show where we have some common interest across the House when we are looking at minerals and when we are looking at how we either promote or manage. I\u2019m interested, firstly, to hear more from the Minister about how the Government intends to support\u2014is it support or manage\u2014the investigation into super-critical geothermal resource, super-hot geothermal resource; where does that balance lie? And is the current funding arrangement a promotion or a management of that resource? How does that sit with the Minister? How does the Government view that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EAlthough it may be coming into some detail, we do need to know something about that actual resource, because what we understand and what the Minister referred to last night was the value of the power that we may be able to gain from such investigations. I\u2019m interested to hear some detail, actually, about what type of temperature differential there might be in that super-critical, super-deep, super-hot geothermal resource and how we might manage those high temperatures\u2014how that might be managed. Because we are thinking about what the climate impacts of the resource extraction is, how would carbon capture and storage be used for that resource? I\u2019m not going to go much further, because I think the Minister has given us an opportunity to look at this really interesting subject, but I want to come back to whether this is promoting or managing, and where we can look for consensus or agreement across the House, we certainly should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EOne last point I would make is that we are sitting here debating the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill while COP29 goes on; when we are trying to reduce emissions and meet emissions budgets, and, if we are opening up the fossil fuel sector but not looking at our renewables and our lower emissions sector, we are going against the global current. If the Minister could come back to me specifically on the geothermal question: super-hot, super-critical; and on whether the Minister sees this as promotion, currently, or management. What is the Minister\u2019s position on this, and why is this so important for us? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5c0a913586f4a3ba01ce89e1f4fbfe9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5c0a913586f4a3ba01ce89e1f4fbfe9\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I think early next year would\u00A0be a great time for a proper briefing in terms of the geothermal matters, which I\u2019ll undertake rather than burdening this particular portion of the bill\u2019s passage\u2014but I think it\u2019s a good point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOn the question of equipment regulations, well, all former Ministers know that regulations promulgated under legislation generally happen after the legislation has passed. Obviously, regulations that are superfluous will be struck down, I should imagine, by my colleague Mr Seymour as I work with him to ensure that the regulations are fit for purpose, but, at this stage, the provision enables the promulgation of regulations as we go\u00A0forward. They could cover things like metal detectors, as something figuratively that will be needed by the Opposition to search for votes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, we don\u2019t need to go down to a finicky level of antennae radars\u2014those matters can be addressed at a detailed level with the passage of regulations\u2014but I say again: regulations are passed once the statute has been enacted. They are like a backstop. If a regulation is inconsistent with the purpose of the Act, it can be struck down as ultra vires. All members of the House know we have a Regulations Review Committee, and in the event that a regulation is described or found to be egregious\u2014there\u2019ll be very few of them as far as I\u2019m concerned, because I\u2019m pro-industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00224ae0f5432f4e4de9b43290c5e2141e86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ae0f5432f4e4de9b43290c5e2141e86\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have two questions for the Minister, from a perspective of common law and statutory interpretation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe Minister previously has discussed at length the terminology of \u201Cpromote\u201D, and this is clause 4\u2014the terminology of \u201Cpromote\u201D and \u201Cmanage\u201D\u2014promoting being an active word and also being forward leaning. I would argue that both manage and promoting verbs are both active words, but I would agree with the Minister that promoting is indeed anticipatory. However, when we\u2019re looking at the Crown Minerals Act, which this is a part of, you can\u2019t read section 1A(1) without also reading section 1A(2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis is a new perspective that requires clarification, because in section 1A(2) of the Crown Minerals Act, it says \u201CTo this end\u201D; ergo, subsection 2 pertains to the statutory interpretation of subsection 1. \u201CManage\u201D and \u201Cpromote\u201D will have very different connotations in this case, because \u201Cmanage\u201D has an operationalisation perspective that \u201Cpromote\u201D does not have. I want to ask the Minister whether he has received any advice from his officials on how one would interpret section 1A(2)(c) and (d) of the Crown Minerals Act in the context of promotion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ELike the Minister said before, any regulation that he set aside that isn\u2019t in line with the legislation will be struck out because it is ultra vires. In that case, would then the effective management and regulation that is not pertaining to promotion but pertaining to the existing management be struck out? Promotion essentially is a sales and marketing perspective. It doesn\u2019t pertain to when something is actually approved. So it will be really important to get a clarification on that and the Minister\u2019s intent from the perspective of what potentially will occur later on in the court of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second question I have, which is also to do with something my colleague Steve Abel has mentioned before, is to do with when we\u2019re looking at either offshore mining or if you\u2019re looking at panning for gold in rivers and what that would affect in terms of other people\u2019s enjoyment of that area. I want to ask if the Minister has received any advice from a common law perspective, because it\u2019s not in the regulatory impact statements, around public nuisance and negligence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, we have seen recently in the court of law that this is a significant area that has got people from Aotearoa interested in, particularly when we\u2019re looking at the case of Smith v Fonterra. In this case, has there been any advice that the Minister received from the officials on what that would mean in the common law perspective, where potentially anyone could then take these companies or these areas to court and the liability that it would create in the context of public nuisance and negligence? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7b431ea8c7746359fd8dbf30b148f58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7b431ea8c7746359fd8dbf30b148f58\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b0e2b06c344c48208bd8ea3835b6fd45\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002273465a407a444f1baebbf44640da0cfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273465a407a444f1baebbf44640da0cfb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 214 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002247157544b2e842fe99a16453586327be\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002292f49e4e26ab4a4eb46ecba168140cff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292f49e4e26ab4a4eb46ecba168140cff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to amend clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223f171914d5524dcda2e2c2846b9b1f0b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8504f154f8c4be2be061f7cb9ee91f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8504f154f8c4be2be061f7cb9ee91f4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 5(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf0a615cb9bf4be59f1ee895d36f8a8e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002266f98e852e344df4a69794bb8cf696ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266f98e852e344df4a69794bb8cf696ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 10 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228a4f24144d604dad81beea1ef726c0db\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002243ad190f37f440baa7690146d8ed3249\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243ad190f37f440baa7690146d8ed3249\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new section 12C in clause 12 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002266215563447d403f99512051bb3172fd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d72963981ad94d36b3274a5a9aaa08ec\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d200186f9d1b44fc8a69aa440f7c87dd\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to subpart 1 of Part 1B of principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8ad0117d63e41adb7f6784edc6daa91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8ad0117d63e41adb7f6784edc6daa91\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 14 to 35, \u201CAmendments to subpart 1 of Part 1B of principal Act\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002294e0563767a04173865bf944cc4670c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294e0563767a04173865bf944cc4670c3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Part 2 of the bill is largely around how it is that permits are allocated. There are a range of things that go through all tiers of permits\u2014tiers 1, 2, and 3 permits that are in here\u2014but one of the critical changes that this Government is bringing into place is in terms of overturning the changes that the previous Government put in place in 2018 with the amendments to the Crown Minerals Act, as it was then, to explicitly restrict petroleum exploration permits to be allocated via public tender methods including block offer. This bill reverses this change, allowing for other methods to be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, obviously there\u2019s going to be a lot of questions around these other methods\u2014how it is that these are going to interplay; what the detail of this really means. What we know is that clause 14 of this bill removes sections 23(2) of the principal Act. In addition to reversing the ban on new exploration for oil and gas that our Government put into place, this removes the restriction on applications for petroleum exploration permits to only open block. This change allows for those other methods to come into play\u2014for example, priority-in-time permits. I think this is a method for allocating permits that were in place before 2013. It was really only in 2013 that going to the mechanism of block offer really became the standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EHow is it that these two things are going to interplay? I think this goes to the crux of what we were talking about earlier in Part 1; it really gets down to that nitty-gritty detail. What we know is that since 2014, we have been seeing a long-run decline in exploration activity in New Zealand, and this is consistent with global trends in oil and gas investment, in exploration. It\u2019s not just in New Zealand: 2014, I think everyone will note, is way before 2018, when the ban was put into place. This is actually about facing up to reality in terms of New Zealand\u2019s energy future\u2014that we\u2019ve been seeing that decline anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe first question for the Minister: is he envisioning block offers to come back into play? Is this a mechanism for allocation that he will be using, as was the case post-2013 and which became more of the norm of how we allocated permits in New Zealand? Of course, a block offer is when a Government identifies an area and goes out, essentially, to open tender, to the market, and invites people to bid in and say what they want to do in that area. Or are they going to allow the priority in time that, at any point in time, someone who wishes to have an exploration permit can identify an area where they\u2019d like that and come in and apply for a permit in that area. This is one of the critical questions in terms of the balance and how the Minister sees that playing out in this new regime that he\u2019s putting in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to know the indications and the advice that the Minister has around the demand that there is going to be for these permits. He seems to be flying in the face of all the accepted wisdom in terms of the demand that sits out there for these permits, in terms of the appetite to come and invest and start exploration again in New Zealand. The Minister is hanging his hat on this being the answer to New Zealand\u2019s energy security, so he must have some pretty rock-solid advice that there\u2019s people sitting out there wanting\u2014either through block offer or through a priority-in-time permit, or some other mechanism the Minister may be thinking of, which he can elucidate and inform the committee about, that there is going to be this international appetite that will be counter to what we\u2019re seeing in other places\u2014to come in and invest in New Zealand. It will also turn around the historical trend, that we\u2019ve been seeing in New Zealand for over a decade now, in terms of exploration in this country. One of the things that we would like to know is all of those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the other application methods, other than this public tender that these amendments in Part 2 of this legislation allow, these will be in the regulations and programmes that will determine the detail requirements for the allocation methods. Given a lot of this detail sits below the legislation in terms of the regulations and the petroleum programme, I\u2019d be interested, and I\u2019m sure the committee would be interested, to hear from the Minister some of the detail that sits around what will be contained in those subordinate instruments that we are enacting and bringing back with these amendments in Part 2 of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s fair to say that it\u2019s very hard for the committee to make a call. I would have thought it\u2019d be hard for all members, no matter what side they\u2019re sitting on, without actually having the information and the detail that sits within that regulatory framework, to know how this is going to operate, because it certainly isn\u2019t clear from the legislation. And the bill does not make any reference to the time frames in applying for a permit, for example, that sits in there\u2014will this be in the regulations, will this be in the petroleum programme? What is that likely to be, when are we likely to know about it, how will the public have time to consult on that, and what is the detail? The committee needs to know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other concern that certainly was made at the select committee was that adding additional permit allocation methods will exacerbate existing issues in regards to iwi engagement\u2014so that was in 2013. The preferred method has been through the block office system, as cumbersome as this has been for iwi, particularly in Taranaki, to take part in\u2014there has been a predictable way in which engagement has taken place through that block offer method. What will this look like if we have to go to this more ad hoc allocation method in terms of the priority time permits? What will the requirements for consultation be? What support will there be for iwi and hap\u016B around that consultation? How long will they be notified in advance that there is a permit, and all those time frames? Some really important and fundamental questions to the operation of this legislation sit in Part 2. Those were very overarching comments\u2014I will be back with some more specific questions around these clauses later in the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee4aaec468874a64b47d09adb8bb7790\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee4aaec468874a64b47d09adb8bb7790\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s a bunch of important questions there. Because this is a relatively modest and non-controversial portion of this amended piece of proposed legislation, the existing processes for hap\u016B and iwi remain. They are provisions that are important to various stakeholders, certainly in Taranaki. The question as to what is the future of the block offer method\u2014that will not be ruled out by this legislation, but the legislation introduces alternative approaches and processes for the allocation of an entitlement to reinvigorate, rediscover, recharge this indigenous resource called the gas industry. That\u2019s all this portion of the legislation is doing. It doesn\u2019t hobble the ability of tangata whenua to participate, providing that they\u2019re very focused and they don\u2019t pretend they\u2019ve got a power of veto. The national interest of keeping the lights on goes beyond the interests of any segment of our community, and, let\u2019s face it, this resource still does contribute to our electricity system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI repeat: tangata whenua opportunities for consultation and engagement remain. Block offer options: they are enriched and augmented by other approaches. And I would say that the works programme today, in respect of the question offered by the former Minister, is out for consultation on this very day. On that basis, people can raise issues and have questions answered by the internet. But look, I\u2019m looking forward to answering all manner of questions when I have my public meeting on Friday in Taranaki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7a7830543344a07890afa39110d028c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7a7830543344a07890afa39110d028c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just invite members\u2014if we can get some question-and-answer dialogue going on, the Chair will certainly indulge that, rather than each speaker standing up and, perhaps, seeking to take up the whole five minutes and beyond. That way we might just get the proposed new method, which hasn\u2019t really become in vogue yet, of extracting the right answers and information\u2014bearing in mind, I understand it takes two to tango.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e17aa1b728b740159755560c0859a990\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e17aa1b728b740159755560c0859a990\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate that opportunity, and, specifically, I would appreciate the Minister answering a little on the opening up of conservation land in Taranaki to mining. I wonder what specific advice he received from the Department of Conservation on how that would be managed. Obviously, we oppose the opening of conservation land for mining, but given that that\u2019s the intent of the Minister, what advice was there on how that would be practically managed: would that include for the new tier 3 variety of mining, and would that include all other varieties of mining, as well? Could that potentially include some of the most intensive forms of mining? If it was goldmining, for instance, it could include the crushing of rock and the\u00A0extraction of gold using cyanide, with tailings, and so forth. I wonder what the extent of that is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe other question\u2014which I\u2019m happy to sit down to see if the Minister is happy to have a back and forth on it\u2014is regarding the impact on Treaty settlements in this regard. I know that there are Taranaki iwi for whom important parts of their settlements involve conservation land and the management of conservation resources in Taranaki, and I wondered what advice the Minister has received on the impact on Treaty settlements. That\u2019s some initial questions there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe56e5f509b24a4483906392d958c5b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Carry on, Mr Abel, if you\u2019re of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ec8c63f4464513ad016573517b4419\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you, and just a follow-up on my colleague\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be2b32e8691f45c78e2c72e1930df5c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: But what I\u2019ll do is this. The Minister is obviously taking advice, and if I have to wait to ensure that he is hearing the questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236a4b9b05f824c799bc58c44368c7bc9\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019ve heard the questions, sir. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d418762fffba4c7aacf5a83debbde4cb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: All right. Carry on, Mr Abel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258ab284993ce4d5fa945747403e498ad\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. The other one is to follow up on my colleague\u2019s question in the last round on the statutory definition of \u201Cpromote\u201D versus \u201Cmanage\u201D. I think it would be useful for the committee to hear a response to that, because it did seem to be of some concern that in the instance of an existing, active mining activity of whatever variety, the question of promoting it became no longer the relevant question; now, it became a question of managing it. Could he clarify the statutory definition of \u201Cpromote\u201D where it applies to the management of a resource, and is there a need to make it clear that the Minister still retains a responsibility for managing existing mining activities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002282c3840469e94ed2a4b1e03f6402a44e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282c3840469e94ed2a4b1e03f6402a44e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Can I direct the Green Party member to clause 31, where section 50A is repealed\u2014i.e., Taranaki conservation land, for the purposes of petroleum entitlement allocation, is being changed. In relation to the connection between Taranaki conservation land and tier 3, there is no gold, to the best of my knowledge, being mined in Taranaki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00228a36ff14378f4d4d8c96524411fae6f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a36ff14378f4d4d8c96524411fae6f2\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. I appreciate your guidance earlier, and I particularly appreciate your use of language in terms of talking about how we extract the answers, which is obviously what this debate\u2019s about\u2014it\u2019s about how we prevent it. I\u2019ve got a series of questions. My first is around the amendment of section 28A, which is the \u201CDeclaration that permits not to be issued or extended for specified land for specified period\u201D. In the change of legislation here, it says \u201CAfter section 28A(1), insert:\u201D, and it goes on to new subsection (1AA), which is \u201CThe Minister may declare that, during a specified period, specified kinds of permits\u201D, and it goes on to paragraph (a) there around \u201Cspecified land\u201D. Now, I just want to clarify\u2014I know it\u2019s in section 24, just to make sure we are clear, and, obviously, there was your previous answer around conservation land\u2014\u201Cwill only be granted in respect of specified land\u201D; can we just confirm what that is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EMy next question is, if I flip the page and look at section 29B, which is\u2014if I\u2019m flicking through the Act here, 29B: \u201CProcess for considering application under public tender for conditional exploration permit\u201D. What the Minister is inserting here is, \u201CAfter section 29B(1)(a), insert: (ab) the offer specifies a date that is the latest acceptable reassessment date;\u201D. Now, I just want to understand\u2014the Minister could explain\u2014what that actually means, \u201Cthe [last] acceptable reassessment date\u201D, because that sort of sounds like we\u2019re holding on for dear life to the latest moment, to one minute to midnight or whatever it is. I\u2019d like an answer for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EMy next question\u2014I\u2019ll just keep firing them through\u2014is on the amendment of section 40. Looking at the Crown Minerals Act section 40, if I flip my page here, which is the \u201CSurrender of permit\u201D, and the Minister will be adding in \u201CReplace section 40(9)\u201D, and it goes on with a whole series of statements there. The question I have is right at the bottom there\u2014sorry, looking over there, they add: \u201Cthe permit was granted on or after 21\u00A0August 2003.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383b6ac0cce844779d297fafe201055b\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: This is in Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022512a9efd26664239ac78f7a3f8169b7c\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Is this Part 3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f89bd6d86f942b48677e337bbee86df\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022208a71a1e04548d5ae04919be0197d75\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ve run ahead. OK. Well, I\u2019ll leave those other three questions for you, and I\u2019ll come to that one when we get to there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002253cc4265b13f4fdda476a194ef432178\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253cc4265b13f4fdda476a194ef432178\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That was actually correct. That was actually still Part 2, clause 26.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c14aa7ae79524fa9bf0d7e652c398de4\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, it wasn\u2019t. Clause 40, he was talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf24156b79df4ee3a8cfebb9dff9f7e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 26. Anyway, we\u2019ve got ample time to clarify that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022493eea801236489aa2b22b4c1ec0a627\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022493eea801236489aa2b22b4c1ec0a627\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. One of the things I\u2019d just like some clarification on is an earlier answer that the Minister gave. Am I to understand correctly that the Minister is saying that the amendments to the Crown Minerals (Petroleum) Regulations 2007, that this is the work programme that he is saying is currently out for consultation and that this is the work that is currently being consulted on? That would be good to clarify because, of course, after the passage of this legislation, amendments to those existing regulations will be required. Just some clarity, and also some time lines, around: if they\u2019re out for consultation now, what is the expected time line to those regulations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things\u2014I\u2019m happy to stop for the Minister to hear the questions while he receives advice, if that\u2019s useful, Mr Chair? Just saying I\u2019m happy to pause so the Minister can hear the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3c516174180420d8a3e20b9df2b392a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you ready, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2a421d9fceb4e3e9af93aa4896b54a0\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff9f41cf7ceb4367b9db35f531ce3e9c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234db380f58c5495fbc65b6f92dde9426\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: What I would like is to understand more around the tier\u00A03 permits. This is, of course, a new mechanism that\u2019s coming through in this legislation. When we have a look at the process to consider application for tier 3, which is: the application for a tier 3 permit \u201Cmust provide to the Minister\u201D\u2014that\u2019s all specified. Then we have: \u201CBefore granting a permit, the Minister must be satisfied\u2014(a) that the applicant is highly likely to comply with and give proper effect to the work programme, taking into account\u2014(i) the applicant\u2019s technical capability;\u201D. I\u2019d just like some more detail on what it is that will be considered when making that assessment around the applicant\u2019s technical capability? This is, of course, something that the Minister will be considering in terms of a statutory decision. What are the criteria around technical capability that will be put there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThen, \u201C(ii) the applicant\u2019s financial capability;\u201D\u2014now, I won\u2019t be moving into decommissioning, because that\u2019s clearly in Part 3 of the bill\u2014what will be taken into consideration, anything over and above the ability for decommissioning in terms of the financial capability of the applicant there? These, of course, are tier 3. And, around that, \u201C(iii) any relevant information on the applicant\u2019s failure to comply with permits or rights, or conditions in respect [to] those permits\u201D\u2014what are the things that will be taken in consideration when the Minister is making decisions, and any other relevant information? What does he see? What is the advice that he\u2019s got that might be other relevant information that will come to bear on that decision making?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThen we go over to clause 25, which is the revocation or transfer of those permits. One of the questions I have for the Minister is that it spells out in this clause: \u201CThe Minister may revoke \u2026 or transfer the permit to the Minister (in replacement [of] the permit holder) if [he] is satisfied that the permit holder has contravened\u2014(a) a condition of the permit; or (b) [the] Act or the regulations.\u201D One of the things that I\u2019m unclear about, and it doesn\u2019t seem to be clear, is how that interacts with the earlier clause that I\u2019m talking about. If you have had a permit revoked\u2014if the Minister has revoked or transferred that permit back to the Minister\u2014can you reapply for a permit? Can you reapply for the same permit in the same place if you go on to satisfy the Minister, or is that ruled out? What about someone who has had a permit revoked? Can they apply for a permit over a different area if they have failed to comply with the conditions of an earlier permit? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022600262af358c4a31abdfad37829baf05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022600262af358c4a31abdfad37829baf05\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to pick up on some comments that the Minister made a couple of answers ago, and I\u2019ve got some questions off the back of those. I think that prior to asking the questions, it\u2019s important to remember the context in which the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee received and heard submissions for and against this bill, and the speed at which that happened. The specific comment that the Minister made was about this being non-controversial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EMy first question is, really, to know how he reaches the conclusion that this is non-controversial, especially given the context of just some excerpts from a couple of submissions. One submission from Te Kotahitanga Marae in Herekino, stated, \u201Cfull and unwavering opposition\u201D, and also went on to state that it \u201Cthreatens the very land we live on and the future of our people.\u201D I\u2019m interested to know how the Minister would suggest that that is non-controversial. Secondly, a submission from the World Wide Fund for Nature New\u00A0Zealand details international scientific consensus that the use of fossil fuels for energy consumption is the leading cause of climate change, responsible for more than three-quarters\u00A0of global greenhouse gas emissions. In the context of those two submissions alone, I\u2019m interested to know\u2014there are plenty more I could share\u2014how the term \u201Cnon-controversial\u201D could be used in relation to this; and also, what the threshold for \u201Ccontroversial\u201D would have to be, given the context of just that tiny sample of submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI have further questions on that process. There was a theme that came through in, if not all, the vast majority of submissions: what the need for speed was with the movement of this legislation; whether the Minister has a sense of the total volume of submissions that were received\u2014given the very, very small window of time\u2014what that very large number of submissions was; what the percentage of those submissions that were in opposition were; and also, whether the Minister, particularly in the context of the excerpt from Te Kotahitanga Marae that I shared, could give us any examples of iwi submissions that were made in support of the changes suggested in the bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00222ebd4ea8cbb9498d801ff595d2dba6eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ebd4ea8cbb9498d801ff595d2dba6eb\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I want to deal with the question\u2014it was a very detailed question\u2014as to what\u2019s the importance of the expression specified. It\u2019s an administrative term and it pertains to the area that will be circumscribed as being available for extractive or exploratory or prospecting activity. It will be specified in such a way that there is no doubt as to where the boundaries are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOn the question of M\u0101ori submissions, I\u2019ve covered that off and I\u2019m the first to admit that the submissions reflect a wide array of passion and perspectives. However, that lay within the purview of the members of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, and I salute them for their service. However, I have already pointed out, for the purposes of allocating entitlements under this statute, the provision enabling M\u0101ori engagement to take place has not changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022520d23f1e2fc4efea32f86c60852a06b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022520d23f1e2fc4efea32f86c60852a06b\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just seeking your clarification just to understand, because I was speaking in my previous call to clause 26, which talks about section 40 being amended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d8ad5942e654614ab874c03a5e93c28\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s right. You were referring to clauses 20 and 26, which are in Part 2. You\u2019d be welcome to carry on your questioning or you might want to reiterate your question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8de62ffc2384c3aa0534bcd31f7ab08\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for the clarification. The reason I want to understand is because there is, obviously, a series of additions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af10f58922fb4f17938fb96a3759d9a9\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Section 40 is in Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272edbfa6f8524284bb43db7d1ef5a237\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is, yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd34eca158984d858fc4fc07a8d76ec6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: But clause 26 isn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac874bbf8dcd45d69f205d4f0ff8e39e\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It is clause 26. Thank you. Thank you very much. I just want to understand, because what it does, if I look at the Act which I have in front of me, is it actually adds something new in terms of\u2014and I understand that in the current Act as it stands it does say the permit was granted before 21 August 2023\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201e811e42bee4821bcb9170bf90d298a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just what section are you on now, Mr Bennett?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44525874e504842b4a8abd076e979f6\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I\u2019ve just been talking about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f45fd8200f1a41eabbbaf39bfebaaaff\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 26.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220df5a361de3648498d68ebbc2b164af5\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 26, which then speaks to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a0c6827ab284a31a638fc5d3a457964\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260b19d8e88b440cd847e85b16759f974\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I think, on my paper it\u2019s page 12 I\u2019m looking at. What I\u2019m seeing and wanting to understand from the Minister is currently, yes, it does have in replacement section 40(9)(b)(i) \u201Cthe permit was granted before 21 August 2003 and was a permit other than in respect of petroleum;\u201D, and then it goes on to add something which isn\u2019t in the original bill. I just want to understand why the Minister has chosen to add the next part, in subparagraph (ii), which is \u201Cthe permit was granted on or after 21 August 2003.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, currently, as it stands\u2014I know it is in a previous part\u2014but why is that being added in terms of \u201Cthe permit was granted on or after 21 August 2003\u201D? Hopefully, my question is clear, because I just don\u2019t see it in the current legislation, but I see it being added to this new piece. I want the Minister just to clarify why that is being put in there. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u00225860e0df82084b9f8ad23a0b367971cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225860e0df82084b9f8ad23a0b367971cf\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just have a very specific question and proposed amendment in response to the Minister\u2019s response to a prior call by my colleague Steve Abel. This is about clause 31, in Part 2, which is on page 13 of the bill, and it was about the repeal of the restricted access to Taranaki conservation land. I\u2019d really like to hear from the Minister, because we haven\u2019t had a response, about what advice he has received from the Department of Conservation (DOC) on this, and if he has considered that advice in making this decision to repeal section 50A of the Crown Minerals Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI really want to point that out, because we have a proposed amendment to delete clause\u00A031\u2014this is on page 13, lines 10 and 11\u2014which would have the effect of not repealing section 50A. I\u2019m really keen to hear from the Minister about any advice from DOC and whether that has been considered in his decision to proceed with this clause. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002275c7ddf89d5b417eb595c644985e8ff6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275c7ddf89d5b417eb595c644985e8ff6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Glen Bennett. Oh, sorry, the honourable Minister. How I missed you, I\u2019ll never know, Mr Jones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002240e1ef5c74704294bdc2ce856d850097\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240e1ef5c74704294bdc2ce856d850097\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I can revert to volume, but for fear of being censured again, I\u2019ll behave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ELook, I think the point that\u2019s made about the Taranaki conservation land\u2014obviously, in the development of any policy there is advice sought from a range of Government departments\u2014but the point that this provision makes is that that land will now be made available. I accept that not everyone is of a single mind in that regard, and the fact that advice may have been drawn from Government departments is just part of the policy-making process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI just want to go back to an earlier question, because it was a very important question and I\u2019ve sought some advice. It had to do with clause 24: was there a process for assessing whether or not a person\u2019s, if I can use that word figuratively, appropriateness or capacity to comply\u2014is that being taken into account? The things relate, obviously, to what is the technical capability\u2014as the former Minister has referred to, I think; will their financial capability be taken into place? Yes. And would one study their past behaviours? That criteria, whilst it may not be totally outlined legislatively, obviously it\u2019s within the code of practice that we would expect the Civil Service to apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe overall test in terms of an applicant\u2019s ability to comply with the work programme is such that there are cases where, if they don\u2019t comply, they don\u2019t get a permit. But, at the same time, the whole purpose of tier 3, and the references that are being made here, is to ensure that it\u2019s not so burdensome that it squashes entrepreneurial resolve and actually ends up hobbling the industry. Quite straightforward and riddled with common sense, I\u2019d have thought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00228d32ed45583d43ae9c288b31a7909daa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d32ed45583d43ae9c288b31a7909daa\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for talking more about the criteria that will be applied for that decision making in terms of the suitability of applicants. One of the things that I am interested to know, that the Minister didn\u2019t address, is whether if someone has a permit revoked, this will rule them out from holding a permit either in the same area or in alternative areas; whether there\u2019s a time frame around that or what the Minister would need to be satisfied that someone had gone on the appropriate redemption arc in terms of the ability to hold a permit and what that would look like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee6b2bc29e624212a46da7d9c5a2e949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee6b2bc29e624212a46da7d9c5a2e949\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s actually a very important point. Now, as in other statutory regimes, one smudge against an entity\u2019s name should not condemn them to permanent exile. We have cases, for example, in the fishing industry where there may have been infractions in the past, but people consider the changes that they may have made, the efforts to improve their capacity to comply. I think that the former Minister is well aware, and I\u2019m sure the more sentient members of the Opposition will appreciate, that the test is \u201Clikely to comply\u201D. These are judgments that are made by the Civil Service within the confines of the law on a regular basis. I don\u2019t need to recite examples where there have been cases of infraction but people have tidied their act up and they\u2019ve been able to continue on. Indeed, the gold\u2014I won\u2019t talk any more about gold because I actually want us to focus on Taranaki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00223024a2243d81490f87a8d5d04caf434d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223024a2243d81490f87a8d5d04caf434d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. I thank the Minister for that, and I do point him to the clause of the bill that I am asking questions on, which is clause 19 which inserts a new section 29AB, the \u201CProcess for considering application for Tier 3 permit\u201D. While the Minister says these are considerations that bureaucrats need to take into consideration, what we\u2019re talking about here is actually ministerial decision-making. What we have in new section 29AB, the \u201CProcess for considering application for Tier 3 permit\u201D, (1) and under number (2), is it\u2019s the Minister that must be satisfied. These are decisions the Minister will be making, not his officials\u2014not bureaucrats that will be making these. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister refers to \u201Cone smudge\u201D not being out; I think the committee needs to have more of an understanding from the Minister what the kinds of considerations are that the Minister himself will be taking into account, because this isn\u2019t something that is being delegated out through this legislation; this is something that the Minister will be doing themselves. In terms of that, any other relevant information\u2014I\u2019m still unclear whether or not, if you have contravened a previous permit, that rules you out either in coming further down the line and seeking another permit on that same area of land or whether you decide that if you\u2019ve lost a permit in that area, you\u2019re going to go and apply for a permit across the road. I\u2019m still not clear whether that is something the Minister will countenance, and given there is a lot of power being given to the Minister with a new class of permit that\u2019s being introduced through this section of the legislation, the committee needs to know this detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister can\u2019t simply say, \u201CMy officials will take that into consideration\u201D, because the Minister has brought to the floor of this House a piece of legislation that is saying these are things that he has thought through, these are things that he is seeking permission to do, and this is how the committee can be satisfied, the kinds of things that will be taken into consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002249f6340556bd42129152c9748002dba9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249f6340556bd42129152c9748002dba9\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. As was alluded to or spoken to by my colleague Reuben Davidson, obviously, there was a rushed process, and we understand the reality of that, but I\u2019m going to be speaking to replacement section 35, inserted by clause 22, the amendment around the \u201CDuration of permit\u201D. I just want to understand from the Minister\u2014I apologise if this is offensive, but it feels like this was done on the fly, in terms of being done very quickly and the expectation of officials to get it right. Therefore, would there be a chance or an opportunity maybe for us to consider some amendments? When I look at replacement section 35, inserted by clause 22, the amendment here, \u201C(8A) A Tier 3 permit expires\u201D, it\u2019s got \u201C10 years after the commencement date\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, when I look at the duration period in section 35 of the original Act, there are so many different time frames in this. If I look at the Act, four years is one of them. Then there\u2019s 15 years when it comes to petroleum. Or, if we look at other minerals, other than petroleum, it\u2019s 10 years, which, obviously, is consistent with what is in here. Then it talks further on about a mining permit of 40 years. I don\u2019t want to give the Minister opportunity to extend this\u2014God forbid!\u2014but, in terms of the consideration, when the Minister did obviously signal what he wanted in the legislation, and then what actually appears, has there been any consideration given to this Act, which, obviously, is more than 30 years old\u2014there have been changes over the years\u2014in terms of whether these duration time frames are right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI mean, personally, obviously, this side of the committee would want, if and when this bill does pass, to see those time frames shortened, because we want to move on and transition to renewables. We want to transition away from our reliance on having to dig things out of the ground. My question to the Minister is: given that he is making some quite major changes to the Act, is there any consideration to maybe consider whether this duration period in replacement section 35 is actually fit for purpose in 2024 and going forward? And would it be important, maybe, for us to review it\u2014if we\u2019re here now, why not look at it and see what we could do to actually improve this but also look at how we speed up the reliance on fossil fuels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a50dfe9076ac4f1b98fda9133a4d5b99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a50dfe9076ac4f1b98fda9133a4d5b99\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously, any reference to a Minister has the capacity to delegate down to the Civil Service. In relation to the last contribution, the man said that he may or may not have an amendment. If he wants to table an amendment, that\u2019s up to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002211012057ca6a4499a9056cc8fa3a2b3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211012057ca6a4499a9056cc8fa3a2b3d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E One piece of information that I am still waiting on the Minister for, and it would be appreciated if we could have that information, is that clarity around the programme that he said was out for consultation: whether they are the amendments to the regulations that will be required by these legislative changes; if that is the case, what is the time frame, in terms of the conclusion of their consultation, and when we can expect to see those new regulations put in place? Or is this something else that\u2019s out for consultation? It is a genuine question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EGoing back to the core, one of the things that this part does, in terms of the new allocation methods, in terms of there being different opening periods\u2014I think that is something that will require some change. In terms of prior to 2018, when the changes were made, New Zealand was using the block offer system, which was quite a regimented system. There was some certainty around time frames, but this is bringing in alternative allocation measures through these amendments to the legislation here in Part 2. The bill doesn\u2019t make any reference for time frames when applying for these permits, where this was predictable under a block offer system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere are still some live questions around what that will look like under a more ad hoc system where people can come and they can apply for a permit. What do the time frames look like? I think that is something that many people will want to know and something that needs to be answered. There were some suggestions made through the course of the submissions at the select committee. People were talking about bifurcated regimes in terms of onshore and offshore. Is this something the Minister is considering or is he considering there will be one regime that will go across both sorts of permits? It\u2019s something they\u2019re really keen to allow for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAlso, section 23A(1) of the Crown Minerals Act 1991 allows for applications, of course, to be made to the chief executive. This is, unlike the previous clause that I was talking about, where the Minister will be making a decision, something that will actually be going through to the chief executive of the Ministry for the Environment, and the detail of that application process will be set out in the regulations. I circle back to how I started this contribution and this question: is that the regulations that are currently out for consultation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022df5e8ab7287e45e699f0dc1114b2303c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df5e8ab7287e45e699f0dc1114b2303c\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I was actually struggling\u2014I was physically writing my amendment; that\u2019s why it took me a moment to get to my feet. I think this is important. Given the Minister for Resources has offered for me to put an amendment on the Table, I am going to propose an amendment, which I will pose. Also, I agree, and in no way was I trying to undermine the Minister in terms of delegation\u2014I totally understand that, in terms of delegating this work to the officials\u2014I think the officials need to be commended for the hard work they do to support the work of Ministers in and of this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWhat I am looking at is an amendment to amend section 35 of the Act, \u201CDuration of permit\u201D, in new subsection (8A), inserted by clause 22 of the bill, to replace it with \u201CA Tier 3 permit expires\u2014(a) five years after the commencement\u201D; removing the \u201C10\u201D and putting \u201Cfive years\u201D in there. The reason I want to propose that amendment is that I think this is an interesting space for us to be in, in terms of the tier 3 that\u2019s being inserted into this bill. I feel like it\u2019s just giving it a bit of time and a bit of space for us to reflect, and a bit of time and space to ensure that this legislation, once it becomes an Act of Parliament, is actually\u2014not fit for purpose, but the reality would be, in terms of when you look at the potential damage that could be done or potential of the consequences. I read earlier about streams and rivers, and, of course, we have a lot of work to do to ensure that they are swimmable and they are usable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI will continue writing my amendment as quickly as I can so I can get it on the Table, to look at it being five years, rather than 10. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002263be7f0b63bf4151b0735f4e55ace39c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263be7f0b63bf4151b0735f4e55ace39c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I was actually delaying getting up because I was hoping the Minister for Resources\u2014and it looks like he might be updating us in terms of those critical questions around the regulations that are currently out for consultation and whether that is the 2007 regulations, so I\u2019ll allow the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002203fd3176fad2402e8c7e5f4767152ed1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203fd3176fad2402e8c7e5f4767152ed1\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, consultation is available till February 2025. There will be, as is sort of consistent with the approach of this Government, ample opportunity for stakeholders to have their say\u2014and, of course, I\u2019m talking about the petroleum programme work, which is a regular feature of this part of our natural resource economy. It\u2019s difficult to see what else I could say other than that. I have a sense that my capacity to answer questions has been exhausted because they\u2019re getting repetitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00225e07b58ffe0849669a957e0bde653dd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e07b58ffe0849669a957e0bde653dd4\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd0dbd4677c84713a571fb2ca42c90f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229ab869a087be4ed98e014d5f0e292f67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ab869a087be4ed98e014d5f0e292f67\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 214 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002260243d81363a4d99aab6b96e03f5fbea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229cc2204229224958a49d97fa8287cacd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cc2204229224958a49d97fa8287cacd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendments to delete clauses 14, 15, and 16 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e86fb3f385354a94ac236642aa580bb3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a804379311d342adbbffafcbf1208b82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a804379311d342adbbffafcbf1208b82\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 31 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221e5f06546a3b4475adbf5bb4cfbab045\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b89d9b40aa2842bca07e83e6abf80c75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b89d9b40aa2842bca07e83e6abf80c75\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d122ccf81064a14a1b9af10ec66a188\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4908b83f8e14c7e9fe165112863f70c\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to rest of principal Act \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227a60414129d642428640beeb11e291a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a60414129d642428640beeb11e291a1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now Part 3. This is the debate on clauses 36 to 50, \u201CAmendments to rest of principal Act\u201D, and the Schedule. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab58dbd7a4854ee8b32b21c06c382566\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab58dbd7a4854ee8b32b21c06c382566\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 of this legislation is largely concerned with the changes to the decommissioning provisions in the legislation. A bit of context for this that I think is useful for the committee is that our Government changed the decommissioning regime in New Zealand. We did this for a very good reason, and that is because the New Zealand taxpayers were left holding the bill of nearly half a billion dollars for cleaning up after the operator left the Tui oil field. That is the New Zealand taxpayer that had to stump up nearly half a billion dollars\u2014dollars that could otherwise be spent on hospitals, that could be spent on schools, that could be spent on housing, that could be spent on all manner of things, but instead the Crown was left with a liability for an international company that extracted its profits from New Zealand, then left the mess for us to clean up. This was in no way fair. Our Government moved to tidy this up and to ensure that New Zealand taxpayers would never be put at risk again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAs Minister, I was proud to bring those amendments to this House and to ensure that we were protecting New Zealanders from international companies that would come in and not only extract minerals in this country but extract the security of New Zealanders and their tax dollars as well. It simply is not on. Quite frankly, I am shocked to see this Minister bringing amendments to this House that put New Zealanders so far down the pecking order, that put the New Zealander taxpayer at so much risk and expose them to such financial liability. This is because\u2014and this goes back to what the Minister told us in Part 1\u2014industry hated it. Industry hated the amendments that they may have to take responsibility for their own risk. New Zealand moved to put in place the kinds of protections that we see in other First World jurisdictions, but industry didn\u2019t like it\u2014surprise, surprise!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat have we seen? We\u2019ve seen this Minister, who\u2019s told us he takes his advice from industry, moving to bend to the will of what industry want again. That\u2019s what we\u2019re seeing in Part 3 of this legislation: a watering down of those protections for the New Zealand taxpayer. The regulatory impact statement lays bare what the exposure to the New Zealand taxpayer is in terms of liability from decommissioning. The regulatory impact statement tells us that the estimated decommissioning of four offshore fields is over $2 billion\u2014$2\u00A0billion are the estimated costs of decommissioning\u2014and onshore fields are a further nearly half a billion dollars. The decommissioning cost per field can range from $2 million at the low end to $1 billion at the high end. The Crown Minerals Amendment Act introduced a risk-based decommissioning regime that reduced the risk to taxpayers. That\u2019s what the official advice in\u00A0the regulatory impact statement tells us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e623d12fa6344e2aad8fe6a0141b7c7b\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d4b35a240f040efb8d5da78ba0b6f64\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: My question to the Minister is: why is it that he is watering down the protections to the New Zealand taxpayer that were put in place? We will go into the details in further contributions, but the one that I want to concentrate on here and one that has attracted a great deal of attention is the trailing liability. Why is it that that would be limited only to the previous permit holder? What we saw when New Zealand taxpayers ended up carrying the cost and the burden for cleaning up after Tui was because of a complex set of transfers of permits\u2014loopholes that the previous National Government had left in the legislation that exposed the New Zealand taxpayer. We risk this again if trailing liability is limited to only the previous permit holder. The Minister needs to explain to the committee the policy rationale and the advice of why it is that it is fair to New Zealanders that they have to shoulder the risk of multinational companies that come into New Zealand, extract profit, and leave us all holding the risk and the burden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00228e632fb752a74d95ab7125785e8b6e0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e632fb752a74d95ab7125785e8b6e0d\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E This is an inoffensive part of the legislation. It deals with the fact of how to establish a balance so that we protect but have a very sophisticated array of options that the regulator can put upon permit holders without squashing and without ruining the sovereign appeal of our reputation for investors. We know that it\u2019s important that we borrow the best practices; for those reasons, our trailing legislative options in this bill enjoy a great deal of resonance with the UK and other such OECD countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere has to be a balance, and the balance has been struck. We have tidied up a loophole. That loophole ensures that those who sell controlling shares in an entity that may have owned a permit, that they\u2014i.e., the word \u201Cperson\u201D pertaining to both an entity and an individual\u2014can be held responsible. Trailing is all about ensuring that the taxpayers, through regulatory surveillance and regulatory enforcement, can have confidence that those entities that do not comply and do not meet their obligations can be held accountable, but the ways to hold them accountable are not simply singular. There are a range of instruments that this bill enables the regulator to use, to impose that enforceable obligation. I won\u2019t mention any firms because a number of the firms have inherited historical decommissioning obligations that go back to earlier companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think that clamour should be mistaken for clarity or coherence. I know that this is a slightly excitable portion for some members, but it\u2019s a relatively inoffensive, technical set of provisions and it ensures that those people who hold permits cannot escape their obligations. It\u2019s done in a modernised, sophisticated way by people who understand the chicanery of commerce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002217da9432ac9a48e986842c31ae48c756\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217da9432ac9a48e986842c31ae48c756\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman, and I thank the Minister for that contribution. I think the question still remains: why is it that the Minister is choosing to prioritise the needs and wants of multinational companies over those of New Zealanders and New Zealand taxpayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things that the Minister said is that this aligns us with best practice in other countries. Well, the Minister\u2019s own advice, the regulatory impact statement, tells us that \u201CJurisdictions such as the UK and Australia impose perpetual liability on decommissioned wells and infrastructure. For infrastructure that is left in situ in the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf\u201D. What the Minister has told the House is simply incorrect. Actually, other countries seek to protect their citizens and their taxpayers over and above the interests of multinational companies that come in and seek to extract profits. I think the Minister needs to clarify that comment that he just made to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other question that the Minister needs to answer to this committee is why it is, when the advice in the regulatory impact statement tells us that the option of limiting trailing liability to the immediate permit holder will \u201Cincrease the likelihood that, in a case where a financial security fails and enforcement against liable parties is unsuccessful, the Crown will need to assume responsibility as a last resort.\u201D, he is increasing the risk. Let\u2019s not make any bones about it: it is not the Crown; it is the New Zealand taxpayer that that is being increased at. This Government is putting New Zealanders on the hook for the risk of multinational companies, and they are saying that it\u2019s an uncontroversial piece of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement also lays out the multiple uncertainties with the route that the Government has chosen to go down, talking about \u201Cthe likelihood and scale of a financial security failing or being insufficient in a given case\u201D. So, Minister, have you received further advice on this, and has this uncertainty now been cleared? Also, the nature of the field involved in the default\u2014the small versus large; offshore versus onshore\u2014what is the nature of the risk on that? Has that changed since the regulatory impact statement was presented? At the point in time decommissioning eventuates\u2014whether or not it\u2019s exploration versus production\u2014has the Minister given any consideration to having different trailing liabilities in terms of the point of decommissioning of various wells, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe number of available liable persons\u2014because the Minister is sitting there talking about these permits transferring from person to person. Let\u2019s make it clear: these transfer from corporation to corporation. Often what we have seen in the past is that these have been shell companies that have been set up that don\u2019t have the requisite number of liable people that are there. That is when New Zealanders were left holding a half a billion dollar baby to clean up after the international oil and gas industry. I can tell you going and asking for half a billion dollars to clean up after a company that wouldn\u2019t clean up after itself\u2014when I had to ask for that money, knowing we could have spent it on schools and hospitals and housing\u2014was one of the worst days that I had as a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EHow is it that this Minister can stand with any integrity and tell New Zealanders he has their interests at heart, when clearly it is industry that are pulling the strings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a84b84a3fb004e219d70c91aa001b6cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a84b84a3fb004e219d70c91aa001b6cb\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I direct the member to section 89, and there it will be evident that this Minister has closed a loophole that was left by the former regime. There was a level of dilatoriness because there was too much heat in the absence of light. Now, let me turn the torch on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn relation to perpetual liability, that is exactly as I said. The reference that the member is making to post-decommissioned perpetual liability is actually correct, and what we are doing is introducing various instruments that can be imposed upon parties to ensure that they are on the hook and that the instruments will incentivise them to meet their compliance obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, there was an omission\u2014and I direct the member to section 89 as a consequence of high-quality work from the officials motivated by clear leadership and balance on my good self. That\u2019s probably the most important portion of Part 3. Part 3 closes up a loophole where those who have wanted to practice chicanery can no longer shift around shareholdings and escape liability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI want to repeat before I sit down: this is a relatively inoffensive, largely harmless piece of the legislation because it builds upon the better portions of what the last regime put in place to ensure the taxpayer wasn\u2019t stiffed. But what they did is they left a gaping hole that crooks could walk through. We have closed that down and we have left options that regulators can use to hold parties accountable beyond one blunt instrument, because, after all, we need a level of investment in our natural resource sector and investors look for options that suit both the regulator and suit themselves. That\u2019s how international commerce works: because we didn\u2019t have that level of sophistication, international commerce withered under the last regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022779ed7d6acfb4223a30a2f2aa2ca45b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022779ed7d6acfb4223a30a2f2aa2ca45b3\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I appreciate the Minister raising replacement section 89 in Part 3. There is a direct tension between the desire of the Minister to promote and make New Zealand\u2014in his words, he talked about \u201Csovereign attractiveness\u201D; I think that was the term he gave. There is the desire for the Minister to promote and, at the same time, the duty and responsibility of the Minister to manage the risk of any given mining activity. Here, in replacement section 89, is set out what the Minister has described as what can be the burdens that can be placed by means of acceptable financial security on those miners and extractors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe challenge here\u2014and I put it to the Minister\u2014under section 89ZM, \u201CMatters to which Minister must have regard in determining acceptable financial security\u201D, it includes a number of factors to do with the nature of the person undertaking the activity. For example, the Minister must, in section 89ZM(1)(b), take into account \u201Cthe prescribed criteria (if any) relating to acceptable financial security arrangements including, without limitation,\u2014(i) the following particular kinds and amounts of financial security: (ii) any prescribed hierarchy of securities: (iii) whether there is a preferred kind of security in the particular situation:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EHow will the Minister evaluate, as he is obliged to do, things like \u201C(1)(c) \u2026 (i) the estimated cost of decommissioning: (ii) the extent to which the amount to be secured will cover the estimated cost of decommissioning: (iii) the extent to which the financial security arrangement to be put in place will ensure that the Crown will obtain payment of the amount in the event that the permit holder or licence holder fails to carry out the decommissioning or separately meet those costs:\u201D\u2014as my colleague Megan Woods has pointed out, we have had a catastrophic example of this with the failure of a company\u2014\u201C(g) any information relating to current or emerging risks to the permit holder\u2019s or licence holder\u2019s ability to comply with their obligations under this subpart:\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThere are a multitude of things where it is the Minister who is responsible for determining how much of a burden will be placed on the permit holder to ensure that he is protecting the broader risks to us as a nation\u2014both to the public purse but also to the environment\u2014because, obviously, where there is a failure to undertake decommissioning, where there is a problem, where there\u2019s contamination that is not dealt with, it is not only a burden on the public to pay for the cost of cleaning that up if the company in question has not done the job; it is also an impact, possibly intergenerational contamination of the environment, and something that may not be possible to clean up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EHow does the Minister ensure that the tension between his desire to make New Zealand an attractive prospect and his obligation to protect the interests of our country from the risks and the harms caused by that activity, including the costs of decommissioning\u2014how does he get those numbers right? Who will be making those evaluations? Who will be making those assessments? Is there not, would he not agree, a significant risk that in his desire to achieve \u201Csovereign attractiveness\u201D, he will fail in his obligation to protect the sovereign commons of Aotearoa New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00228a1a152f0e074af89bc37f6702e79e57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a1a152f0e074af89bc37f6702e79e57\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I first of all wanted to stand up for the people of Sandringham, who got a bit of a go over by the Minister last night and were belittled. People of Sandringham are people who are well informed, they\u2019re very interested in this area, and they\u2019re very concerned, Minister, about the implications of this section in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis part is of concern because it has in it\u2014we have the story, and you\u2019ve heard Megan Woods talk about this, the story of Tui. We in Sandringham are particularly concerned about the risk that we face as taxpayers and the risk to the environment. What I would ask the Minister is: in the changes that are being made now, which he says strike a balance, can he give the people of Sandringham an assurance that in fact they are not going to end up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b30a4439b0e4035b262440b07a03cac\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the champagne crowd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242ce697fb01b4f35bf2ddaf91f1ce576\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re actually the hard-working tradies, sir, and they are the hard-working workers of our city. There are people who are very much from every walk of life in that particular suburb, which I\u2019m very proud to represent. I want to know, for them, are they going to get into a situation where they are again having to fork out hard-earned taxpayers\u2019 money? Or, in fact, can you give them an assurance today that your changed legislation will protect them in the event of another issue where there is a principal party that walks away, on sale, etc.? Now, I want to know whether there is an insurance you are confidently giving today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221badc3a8b7b24a8fa5aef122120003e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t bring the Chair in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9f7041f8e2f4851b619980853fdc26d\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d also like to know\u2014sorry, sir\u2014whether the Minister is able to confidently give an assurance to the hard-working people of Sandringham of all walks of life, who often have small businesses, they often work for wages, they don\u2019t have a lot of spare cash at the moment\u2014is the Minister prepared to give them that assurance that this will not be a walk down memory lane where they end up having to fork out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EMy context for that is that there are articles that talk about the amount of money that the oil and gas machine is making out there. I\u2019ll just quote one of those: $2 trillion worth of profits\u00A0in the last three decades of Exxon, Shell, BP, and Chevron. That\u2019s $2 trillion. These are very profitable companies that are making money out of exploiting those gases, and surely they should be utterly responsible for the cost of repairing and decommissioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI guess the next question I have is: how big is that risk for the people of Sandringham? Are they in fact in a situation where that is a big risk or a little one? And has the Minister had advice on just how big it is? My understanding, and please enlighten me if I\u2019m wrong, is that this covers all of the infrastructure that is present at the present time as well. We have a whole lot of pipes that will be deteriorating. I would like to know whether the Minister has had advice on the exact risk that we have in that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAnother thing that was asked at the select committee by me was: how does this marry up with the proposal of the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing\u2014and the Minister of commerce\u2014to look at phoenix companies? I never got an answer to that. That is a very interesting proposal\u2014to hold people accountable\u2014but I would have expected that to be something that was looked at in terms of this legislation. Is it something where there\u2019s legislation coming which we can rest assured is going to deal with the issue of phoenix companies and really hold people liable, or not? I\u2019d really like an answer to that question, because I think it\u2019s a very valid point given there is another issue coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI would also, Minister, like to know further about the UK perpetual liability scheme, because it was mentioned earlier. Is it something that the Minister has actually looked at, in terms of should we be adopting that kind of perpetual liability? If not, why not? What is wrong with holding these big companies that are making $2 trillion worth of profit in the last three years, who have themselves referred to this as a cash machine\u2014why would we not be holding them perpetually liable? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00228bd361090c2d4758a5896242ebeabba1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bd361090c2d4758a5896242ebeabba1\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for an opportunity to contribute to this debate. It\u2019s my first contribution and I have a number of questions about what the Minister has said concerning his changes to section 89Z. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Hon Megan Woods has asked the Minister some questions, in good faith, based on a specific example in New Zealand\u2019s history where Cabinet was required to make some decisions which were heavy, which cost the New Zealand taxpayers, and where New Zealand does not want to be in future, and the Minister has said that this is a relatively inoffensive change. Mr Chair, I\u2019d put it to you that that is ridiculous. If this Minister has come down to the committee to play the unwitting ingenue with the Hon Megan Woods, then he can defend his position that he doesn\u2019t think that this bill is in fact watering down the protections for the New Zealand taxpayer and he should be made to defend that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHe should be made to defend the fact that this change is the most valuable thing for the industry that could be done, because the financial security arrangements that section 89Z provides for allow the industry to decide exactly what those arrangements will be. It\u2019s the industry who provides, on notice\u2014not in consultation, not in line with a number of regulations that are set out in either the primary or secondary legislation, but just simply on notice to the Government\u2014what that financial security arrangement will look like. We don\u2019t even say a forward contract for the risk. We\u2019re not even saying that it will be insurance. We\u2019re just saying some sort of financial arrangement will be told in a letter to the Government and that will suffice for this protection. That is not a protection at all; that is allowing the industry to decide what the size of the risk is, how much they think it should be insured for, what the kind of limitation should be, and how best they can minimise what they take on so that the New Zealand taxpayer can pick up the rest of the\u00A0bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: has Treasury booked this? Has that Minister been told by Government officials what the size of the risk is, and is it in the Budget? Has he got a line? Has he gone to Nicola Willis and said, \u201CWell, this is going to cost us a contingent liability of some hundreds of millions of dollars, Minister, and that\u2019s what I\u2019m making a decision about and so you\u2019ll have to take that into account in your forward planning\u201D? Has he got advice from Treasury about what the contingent liability is here? That is of interest to the New Zealand public, and it is of interest to the way that we plan for these things for the New Zealand public, to know that they are being asked to foot the bill in future. Is it the Minister\u2019s position, as he told Hon Megan Woods, that this should be a personal liability? He said that it\u2019s \u201Cpeople\u201D who carry these on, and it\u2019s useful for us to actually consider in the mining context that it is people\u2014it\u2019s magnates around the world who buy into New Zealand and who are worth billions of dollars themselves; it\u2019s human beings here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Minister is relying on the protection of the corporate veil here, actually, where we give a bunch of special rights to people to set up a company where they are not personally liable for the risk that they are creating, but they are personally entitled to the profits. Why is it fair that the Minister has extended these protections but not required the human beings behind this system to actually continue to be liable for the mining permits when he actually said in an answer\u2014and relied upon the idea\u2014that it would be the people, he said, responsible for the corporate chicanery, I think. Why wouldn\u2019t we then continue, in his version of the world, to require those people to be responsible for the clean up? If those people were responsible for the financial security arrangements that he has created in section 89Z, then there would be a level of protection for the New Zealand taxpayer, but he knows that that\u2019s not the case, actually, and in his answer to the Hon Dr Megan Woods he might want to correct that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EFinally, I\u2019d put to him that there is no accounting for how valuable this is to the industry. We don\u2019t know how useful this will be in the future because there is no seeing out what those financial arrangements will be or where they will rank in the event of an insolvency. It\u2019s simply up to the industry to provide to the Government what that arrangement will be, but not whether they will be able to call on it in the event of an insolvency, not where it will rank in terms of bank debt, in terms of if there are other liabilities owing\u2014which always in these situations there are. Will they be able to call on those financial arrangements that they will have to prove they have in place to actually do the job, or will this be a mere paper protection that doesn\u2019t actually look after New Zealanders at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022125a6994a742413dafd33d73ccf96a05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022125a6994a742413dafd33d73ccf96a05\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I repeat again\u2014because we are now suffering a bout of repetition\u2014section 89 lays out the fact that no one is walking away from their decommissioning responsibilities once they are caught by this regime. In the event an entity or entitlements are transferred, the obligation of making good travels forward. The reference to the fact that there might be phoenix companies is not only out of order; it reflects the fact that there has not been adequate study directed towards these overdue improvements in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI say again: the trailing liability is a backstop measure that enables, and is clearly reflected in this bill, that people not run away from their obligations. The former Minister, the Hon Dr Megan Woods, makes a very good point. There was an egregious case of that. But, look, we can\u2019t live the future on historical, random mistakes; we have to move forward and ensure that this sector attracts investment within guardrails, and that\u2019s what section 89 does, in particular, by closing the loophole which I have spoken at nauseating frequency about during this period of time this morning. We are managing the Crown\u2019s fiscal risk, but we\u2019re also ensuring that we don\u2019t squash initiative and close down this industry, because that\u2019s not the position of our Government and certainly not the position of myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOnce again, I feel that I\u2019ve addressed virtually every question. There is one small matter that pertains to what the Minister may or may not be required to take account of, and I simply direct the attention of Opposition members to what the law actually says. The law is very clear in terms of what matters the Minister\u2014and it\u2019s not \u201Cmay\u201D; it\u2019s an enforceable duty\u2014must take into account, and that shows that whoever the Minister is in the future, or what\u2019s delegated down to regulators, these are enforceable duties. They\u2019re not discretionary duties, which would suggest that the members on the other side of the Chamber are playing for time, and, sadly, New Zealand does not have time to muck around on energy security any longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002245c2197b0e144f62a292ecb27d21236b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245c2197b0e144f62a292ecb27d21236b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. The last sentence that the Minister for Resources said there actually brings us back to some unanswered questions through the course of this committee of the whole House stage that the Minister has not addressed, in terms of the time\u2014the time it would take for anything that came about as a result of this legislation to go from exploration to production. We\u2019ve heard from officials and a range of sources that the earliest date we could expect would be 2035. The Minister\u2019s need for haste is somewhat put into perspective when you consider the time that it is going to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister made a number of interesting points there. I particularly want to home in on, within clause 41, the replacement that will be made to section 89ZM. It\u2019s what the Minister just referred to, what the Minister must take into account. Before I get into the detail of that, the Minister claims we\u2019re getting into repetition, but we\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d1d117e40c14ca19dffc3c178799937\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Far from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e64629f78b341f7aa8225e36cd1b4f2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Far from it, because we\u2019re still waiting for answers. One of those critical answers that we\u2019re waiting on from the Minister is the advice that he received from his officials that told him that limiting trailing obligation would increase the risk to the Crown. It\u2019s why it is that he is choosing\u2014having had that advice, knowing that he is increasing the risk to the Crown; i.e., the New Zealand taxpayer, putting them on the hook\u2014to go ahead with the option that he is; that is, limiting trailing liability back to one company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister talks about a random mistake in the past. That was no random mistake; that was something that was allowed by New Zealand legislation and I am proud that our Government closed that down. What we have today in this Chamber is a Government that is choosing to blow that wide open again so that we can have more of that liability fall on the New Zealand taxpayer. The Minister says that this just puts us in place with other jurisdictions who have guardrails\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022546d6fb1f1c74686b136bfc625cd3b71\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Repetition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ef323e34abd4dbdb5adc668438ab75d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but the Minister has not answered the question\u2014those guardrails that other countries choose to put in place for their citizens, for their taxpayers, are perpetual liability, not a limitation on trailing liability to the last permitholder. If we look to the UK and we look to Australia, they\u2019ve put in place perpetual liability in their exclusive economic zone and in their continental shelf area. Why is our Minister giving New Zealanders a weak, anaemic, watered-down version of these guardrails? Why do we, as New Zealanders, not deserve the same guardrails that Australians or the British enjoy from their Governments in the protections that will be put in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of replaced section 89ZN, what I\u2019m wanting to know is, in terms of the subjective considerations that the Minister has to take into account\u2014and is often the case with how legislation is written\u2014are these cumulative criteria that need to be taken into account? Can the Minister choose, in terms of the hierarchy of the criteria that are laid out within the replaced section 89ZN? There is, obviously, a list that is put there, but is this the intended decision-making hierarchy that would be put in place when the Minister goes to make that decision? I think it is important that the committee understands how subjective ministerial decision-making will take place. This is a large piece of decision making that the Minister is carving out within this legislation, so it is important we understand what that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the estimated cost of decommissioning, if we look at the replacement section 89ZM(1)(c)(i), \u201Cthe estimated cost of decommissioning\u201D is the first\u2014will that be the first one that the Minister has to take into account? Then add subparagraph (ii), \u201Cthe extent to which the amount to be secured will cover the estimated cost of decommissioning\u201D\u2014is that the second or, within this subjective decision-making criteria framework, does the Minister have the ability to change the order of what needs to be taken into account? How does the Minister see that playing out and then how the various subclauses? Subjective decision-making is something the House always needs to understand further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd9bc939a6f94d2fb00cacede1223b1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd9bc939a6f94d2fb00cacede1223b1a\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022db22014b3a4a46799c3c544f7cfe2e3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db22014b3a4a46799c3c544f7cfe2e3f\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. It is interesting that members on this side of the Chamber have had to labour this question in particular, about this section, because it is serious, and I feel like the Minister has sort of just tried to fluff it up and make out that this is no big deal\u2014you know, \u201CNothing to see here, people.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI think that the New Zealand public need to see what is going on here and they need to understand. Yes, we have talked at length about Tamarind; yes, we have talked at length about what the Hon Dr Megan Woods had to take to the Labour Cabinet in terms of the money that we, as taxpayers, have spent and are spending on that decommissioning. But I would also just remind the committee that it\u2019s not only the taxpayer; it\u2019s also contractors and local creditors who are out of pocket in terms of that space. It\u2019s not just the taxpayer; it\u2019s actually the small mum-and-dad businesses that the other side like to talk about championing, but they were left out of pocket in terms of what happened there with Tamarind. That\u2019s why, on this Part 3, we need to be really clear, and we need to take our time to make sure that it doesn\u2019t happen again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe Minister has said that it\u2019s just one bad apple and it\u2019s just one thing, but the challenge that we have here\u2014and I\u2019m going to be talking about the amendments to section 89L in clause 37 shortly. The problem we have here\u2014and in Part 1, when I spoke to the Minister\u2014is around the fact that the decline that we\u2019ve seen in fossil fuels since 2014 means that we\u2019re in a position now where those who will come into this country to extract are, basically, trying to squeeze every last bit out, and we know that those businesses, those companies, are often the ones who are the rookies. They often are the ones who are doing all they can\u00A0to squeeze that last little bit out. Yes, we have had this incident, but I am concerned that there will be more and more and more of them as we have less and less in the tank, so to speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EOn section 89L, again, we just want to be clear\u2014and the Minister spoke earlier, saying that the word \u201Cmust\u201D is in there a lot. The word \u201Cmay\u201D does exist in there quite a lot, too. In section 89L(4), in clause 37(2), they\u2019re wanting to replace \u201CA financial security\u201D with \u201CAn acceptable financial security arrangement\u201D. Now, I am concerned by this because I think that changing the wording and putting in \u201CAn acceptable\u201D\u2014acceptable to whom? Who is this acceptable to?  My concern is that, if it is acceptable to the Minister, that puts issues in place, where the fact is that a Minister who comes in could be someone not as diligent and not as well-thought-out as he is, and then \u201CAn acceptable financial security arrangement\u201D could be unacceptable to the rest of us. The word \u201Cacceptable\u201D is acceptable to whom? That\u2019s open to discretion. It\u2019s open to people to have their own game, where they\u2019re looking at their own\u00A0space and place. It is of real concern, and so I want to really challenge the fact that the wording is being watered down in section 89L(4) to \u201CAn acceptable\u201D. I think that is unacceptable, that word \u201Cacceptable\u201D, because who is that acceptable to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI then want to move on, because, again, we are responsible, as people who administer the purse strings of this nation, as I\u2019ve said, to local creditors, who are in a position where they are challenged in terms of this. Then I want to look at new section 89ZN, \u201CDecision of Minister\u201D, in clause 41. I come to new section 89ZN(3), which says that \u201CThe Minister may also direct how the financial security arrangement must operate in accordance with the prescribed requirements (if any).\u201D Again, can\u2019t we just put \u201Cmust\u201D in there, because I am concerned, and we on this side of the Chamber are concerned, that there are gaps and there are spaces where there is the potential for what we\u2019ve seen in the past, which was the huge amount of money we\u2019ve had to pay and the huge amount of, I guess, distrust that then came to the sector, but then also it was across all of those smaller creditors, who struggled and were unable to meet their demands when Tamarind closed down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdabd1543c9d4dddbe18369aff0b49cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdabd1543c9d4dddbe18369aff0b49cc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I want to clarify a matter because the former Minister, the Hon Megan Woods, has raised a very important point: how long will a liability exist for in terms of trailing? There\u2019s two elements here: there\u2019s trailing in some sort of Garden of Eden analogy, and there\u2019s trailing back to the entity that will have held the entitlement. Their obligation is a perpetual obligation. It was possible for them to escape that obligation because of sloppy drafting and the ability for sharp practices in terms of moving shareholding around. That has now been blocked. So, yes, I think there\u2019s a small measure of confusion here. The Minister is correct in that the perpetual obligation will not go back to distant holders of permits; it only goes back up the chain of ownership a certain level, and that is the balance between what the Opposition feel are the legitimate interests of the taxpayer, which I share, and also a common-sense approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, I go back again to section 89\u2014I fear that very few people on the other side of the Chamber have read section 89\u2014in each particular segment, it lays out the obligations upon the Minister, and yes, there is a change of language, and the Minister, with advice, had the ability to ascertain what is the most effective monetary deposit or enforceable financial instrument that should be relied upon by the regulators in the future. For those reasons, I say again, it\u2019s a relatively inoffensive part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002272030f529d4d4404842bc74d04228619\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272030f529d4d4404842bc74d04228619\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u201CIt\u2019s a relatively inoffensive part of the bill\u201D\u2014I think it is, actually, a huge challenge. We\u2019re not talking here about a dairy owner ending their lease and walking away. We\u2019re not talking about a shoe shop that\u2019s ending their lease and moving on and leaving the chattels and bits and pieces floating around. We are talking about the energy industry, we\u2019re talking about oil and gas, we\u2019re talking about the ocean, we\u2019re talking about these types of things where it\u2019s not just unplug and off you go; it\u2019s actually the challenge of ensuring that it is done correctly and in a way that is acceptable to environmental standards. Once these holes have been dug, once these wells have been traversed and used, there is a huge process that goes on to decommission them. Again, it is not just a simple shoe shop owner leaving the lease and leaving a few chattels and a bit of wallpaper; this is actually an environmental challenge, this is actually a challenge for those small mum and dad businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister said this is just a fairly easy, simple bit, that is not the case. We are talking about the seriousness of an oil spill, we\u2019re talking about the seriousness of a gas leak, we\u2019re talking about in perpetuity. The challenges we have are not just for today, not just for this decade, but in decades to come, to ensure that we have it right, so we need to continue to prosecute the section to make sure that the Minister has considered every option, has considered every part of this to make sure that it is not only safe for our environment, that it is not only safe for small businesses, but also to make sure it\u2019s safe for whichever Government leads. I personally do not want to be part of the next Government when we\u2019re having to make a call that the Hon Megan Woods had to make in the last term. I do not want to be part of a Government that is having to fork out more and more taxpayers\u2019 money when, as has been said, we could be spending that on housing, on roading\u2014we could be spending that on hospitals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis is a crucial part of this bill, and we need to make sure that we get it right and that the Minister actually answers the questions for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00229dce27825fa04d06b3999024cf4d98d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dce27825fa04d06b3999024cf4d98d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to address something that the Minister said in his last contribution. I think he is mistakenly thinking there\u2019s confusion on the side of this Chamber about trailing liability and what that means. We understand only too well what this watering down of the protections for New Zealanders that is contained in this legislation is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat I want to know from the Minister in the chair is what are the protections for the New Zealand taxpayer in a scenario where there is a transfer of a permit across two or three companies for the purposes of avoiding the liability because it only pertains to the immediate permit holder? What protections are there in the regime in this legislation or in other jurisdictions to stop the fact that a company will transfer a permit two times so that they can escape the liability and that that will end up with the New Zealand taxpayer? I don\u2019t see any in this legislation. Maybe I\u2019m missing it, but I look forward to the Minister in the chair detailing what provisions of this legislation contain those protections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022078dec7b0f4742bb8ddaa937cfbac7e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022078dec7b0f4742bb8ddaa937cfbac7e7\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022eedf4cef40124cfe9ed561dbb2df2ff2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eedf4cef40124cfe9ed561dbb2df2ff2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll reiterate; I\u2019ll give the Minister time to get some advice to point us to exactly where those protections are within this legislation. This is a serious question that cannot be shut down by a Government that does not want to answer questions about the fact that it is putting the New Zealand taxpayer at risk. I repeat to the Minister in the chair: where are the protections to prevent a two-step transfer of a permit so that the Crown ends up holding the liability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002226cf7c3c37d74dca9cbb5d6fba2948d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226cf7c3c37d74dca9cbb5d6fba2948d0\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I don\u2019t want to water down what I\u2019ve just heard\u2014because I think it\u2019s an absolutely critical question\u2014by asking another, but I do want to ask another. What we have here is a regime for deciding on what a reasonable deposit is and for the use of that deposit, actually, for some of the decommissioning work. What I want to know about is that process of deciding a reasonable amount, what protection is there if the work, actually, that needs to be done turns out to be much more expensive than that deposit. There\u2019s an actual use, from what I can see, of the deposit, if there is a deposit agreed that is cash or bonds, etc., for decommissioning. Well, what if the cost of decommissioning is actually way above the amount of that deposit? How confident is the Minister that we have the right kind of assessments going on and how related to the actual cost of decommissioning is the deposit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat I understand the Minister\u2019s saying is \u201CIt\u2019s all a matter of balance. We\u2019re going to just, basically, incentivise people to come here.\u201D Well, we\u2019re not going to be incentivising, from what I can tell in terms of the way he is looking at things, if the deposit is, in fact, the amount of the actual cost of decommissioning. Is he talking about amounts in bonds and deposits that are really a true reflection of the cost, or is he actually\u2014let\u2019s have it plainly on the table\u2014giving people a discount? Is he saying, \u201CThis much is going to be put in by the prospector, but in order to promote this kind of activity, we are going to underwrite it as taxpayers to a much greater extent.\u201D? And what is that balance struck? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t like it\u2014I don\u2019t like the argument of the deposit and the balance\u2014because I think there\u2019s a problem there for New Zealand taxpayers and there is a problem with climate issues. I\u2019d like to know how much security work we have beyond that deposit and also what is the amount of that balance in his head there, because I cannot see it written down anywhere. I just get words like \u201Creasonable\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aa8f22180204f418c5ec4fed12cef98\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s defined by experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283bd4045380d47abb3f7945dc1f62f32\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s a point being made across the table rather than from the Minister that, in fact, this is defined by experts. My concern about that is that there is just no transparency at all on who those experts are. I would ask the Minister\u2014his colleague is suggesting that it\u2019s defined by experts\u2014who are those experts? What is their expertise? There is an issue of, really, ministerial vulnerability here of being sold a pup, quite frankly. That might well happen with expertise too, where, in fact, we do not have any criteria in this, from what I can see, that nails down who those experts will be, who\u2019ll be giving that advice, and how much safety we have in this scenario.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m genuinely interested in that answer, but I don\u2019t want to deflect from the critical question that\u2019s been asked, and we have not had an answer about the actual issue of taxpayers picking up a tab here, because we do not really have any protection in this bill any more from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228590a9bd8c341a49d83a00241984da0\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Repetitious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2ff90c9c5b24f0d978d00a8534d674d\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s not repetition. In fact, sir, if in fact we have not got the answer, all I\u2019m saying is please do not lose focus on the issue that was asked about by the Hon Megan Woods. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022824521dea12d400cbd05648be74b00dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022824521dea12d400cbd05648be74b00dd\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just referring to the last two questions, the Minister for Resources has already extensively covered section 89\u2014liability of specified persons for default by permit holder or licence holder\u2014and the protections available within that, and the comparability of that with other jurisdictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00223f17c61301b540f0bf1baa51cf02f81e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f17c61301b540f0bf1baa51cf02f81e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the next contribution, just to note that the generic issues around this section 89 have been addressed, but I do note that there has been drilling down into a bit more specific concerns around liability, for example. If future contributions could actually focus specifically on the clauses in terms of section 89, the committee would be grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002228d12eace2554221a473a673bf3c00d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228d12eace2554221a473a673bf3c00d6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and I thank the Minister in the chair, the Hon Penny Simmonds, for that contribution, but it doesn\u2019t address the question of the protection around the liability. If I\u2019m mistaken, I invite the Minister to point me, in section 89, to which bit does offer New Zealanders those protections, because my reading of the section 89 that is going to be amended, that is going to be put in there, which is about the revision of records, is that it does not contain any of those protections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI go back to the Minister, on behalf of the Government, to tell us, to tell this committee, where the preventions for a two-step transfer of a permit exist within this legislation. It is not in the clause the Minister has just pointed to. It was not something that was addressed by the Minister who was formerly in the chair. It is something that this committee has not had answers to, to its satisfaction, and it is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere are a number of other questions that have been put in terms of the hierarchy of decision making, how the Minister will go through there\u2014for example, with section 89ZM. Again, that has not been addressed. There are a number of outstanding questions, but first and foremost this committee deserves an answer, and New Zealanders deserve an answer, on what this Government is doing to protect them from holding billions of dollars\u2019 worth of liability. There is nothing in this legislation, but if there is, I ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Penny Simmonds, to point the committee to it, because there is nothing that has been discussed to date in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022129004140c93490fb29096f2c08244c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022129004140c93490fb29096f2c08244c0\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d222d824a349498287348c3e8de796ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d222d824a349498287348c3e8de796ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, this is a serious question that has been put before the Government to attempt to shut down New Zealanders finding out where the protection is of them holding billions of dollars\u2019 worth of liability that is caused by multinational companies that come in and not only exploit our resources, but this Government is setting them up to exploit New Zealand taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis Government cannot answer where the protections for New Zealanders are. This is outrageous. This shows this is a Government that is not putting New Zealand first. It shows that it is a Government that is bending to the will of industry. It is doing what industry asks without due thought\u2014even a passing thought\u2014to how it is we protect New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI put to the Minister in the chair\u2014I will give you time to get advice; I understand that is what is happening here\u2014where in this legislation is the specific clause that protects New Zealanders from a two-step transfer of a permit? That trailing liability now means the Crown will pick up that liability. This is a serious question, and shame on those Government members that are attempting to shut down a debate where New Zealanders could get an answer on this most important question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00227968861940484972960be4fd271bc19e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227968861940484972960be4fd271bc19e\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I understand the Minister for Resources has spoken on this and I know that there was considerable discussion around this. The Minister has to approve transfers\u2014that is the first protection\u2014and also the previous permit holder plus controlling parties do remain on the hook because of that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002231b86ba55c404a3491e55b45de7ef6da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231b86ba55c404a3491e55b45de7ef6da\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E That does not adequately answer the question. Once a Minister has done a transfer, that has to be improved\u2014the Minister in the chair, the Hon Penny Simmonds, is perfectly correct that a Minister does have to approve a transfer; that is a given, that is recognised, and that is indeed a regime that we put in place. But that does not speak to the fundamental question. It is after that decision has been made that New Zealanders will be subject to the liability; it is the two-step transfer. It is unknown to the Minister at that time of approval whether there is going to be liability. I do not think any Minister is blessed with the gift of the ability to see into the future to know whether that is the case. It has to be a retrospective protection that is put in place for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen in other regimes, and the advice that this Government receives, that they do it in the UK and in Australia by having perpetual liability in place in the exclusive economic zone and on the continental shelf. What the Minister in the chair is pointing to is not a protection in the question that is being asked; it is a provision in the bill\u2014that is a given\u2014but it is certainly not a provision to New Zealand. Unless the Minister can give us more detail, this is a Government that is leaving New Zealanders exposed to the tune of billions and billions of dollars of liability to pick up the tab for multinational companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00227de7f922b90c40c7bbb235ff7422204f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227de7f922b90c40c7bbb235ff7422204f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Before I take the next contribution, just to note that Speaker\u2019s ruling 82/5 states that it is for the Minister to decide whether to answer a question. There is also a balance that needs to be made between a Minister answering a question and members not being satisfied. I am trying to strike that balance and note that there have been a number of questions asked and answered on the topic of the liability. I encourage members to address some other aspects of that part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00220bfcdbe6fbaf44ceb2a27a9a2ce1e28b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bfcdbe6fbaf44ceb2a27a9a2ce1e28b\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228e00048a576b4223b8ecdc5200eafe2f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00225174e1d13c2144a883bd4b6556033cc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225174e1d13c2144a883bd4b6556033cc2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 214 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002255ce30dd0cab4698a3502c8f764d7313\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b6c961d606aa46b5a700db44f26b2975\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226740c1cdfbcc4006ad0d744426061d04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226740c1cdfbcc4006ad0d744426061d04\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to the Schedule set out on Amendment Paper 214 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d91e9beab7c640c5bccf68bc89d7c0a0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002203039a340d7345ce86adaa56013549f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Schedule as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002264cc192ccce8484ca16588210d3a3b47\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00221cf13797660d497fa0d46da4af68d6c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cf13797660d497fa0d46da4af68d6c6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate. This is the debate on clauses 1 to 3: \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7bb9cf958614394bab1240ca59fba32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7bb9cf958614394bab1240ca59fba32\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E This is a bill that is set to come into force on 1\u00A0July 2025. This is a bill that is going through this committee stage while the world is meeting at the Conference of the Parties (COP), where we are discussing what the world\u2019s climate obligations are and how, as a planet, we are going to avoid catastrophic climate change. Meanwhile, back in New Zealand, this Government is passing legislation that takes us backwards. It\u2019s passing legislation that puts at risk our membership of several international organisations of countries we would like to align ourselves with. It puts us outside of where we would see ourselves with like-minded nations. This is yet another shameful step on the path. It also puts New Zealand at odds with its Pacific neighbours. For the Pacific nations that put up for COP at Baku, one of the key things they see is around the financial arrangements that are going to be required in order for them to address climate change. Certainly, New Zealand backtracking on its obligations is something that is going to be taken very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EFrom 1 July next year, New Zealand will have set itself on a path that puts itself backwards. What did the Government hear about this? Well, the Government heard a lot about this from its own officials. I want to make it clear to New Zealanders, and ask the Minister in the chair, the Minister for the Environment, to respond to how it is that this Government can put so much at risk. Not only our reputation and our climate plan, but it is putting our very trade arrangements at risk. There was advice that was provided to the Government that was inadvertently released, and it was tried to be shielded, from the first\u00A0regulatory impact statement, in terms of what the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT) had told the Government were the implications of the passage of this legislation. MFAT assessed that reversing the 2018 ban would likely be inconsistent with the obligation of several of New Zealand\u2019s free-trade agreements not to reduce environmental protections for the purposes of encouraging trade or investments. These obligations prevent parties from reducing environmental protections to advantage domestic businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn black and white, this Government was told our free-trade agreements with the EU and the UK are being put at risk because of the passage of this legislation. From 1 July next year when this bill comes into force and when this bill becomes the law of New Zealand, our free-trade agreements are put at significant risk. What does the Minister have to say about how New Zealand is going to protect its prosperity from 1 July when this bill comes into force? What is the plan of the Government to mitigate that? They have been told by their own officials at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade that this is a likely implication. They also have assessed that reversing the 2018 ban, which is estimated to increase our carbon emissions, would be perceived as New Zealand not intending to meet its nationally determined contribution under the Paris Agreement. Is it the intention of the Government \u2014and the Minister can tell us\u2014from 1 July when this bill comes into force, that New Zealand is intending not to meet its nationally determined contribution under the Paris Agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThat is the advice that the Government has received from its own officials, and we need some answers too, because as soon as this bill does commence on 1 July next year, that is the future that New Zealanders are facing from a backwards-looking Government that has no plan, that is putting everything at risk. It is putting New Zealanders at risk and it is putting our trade at risk as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022aafa57cb6b714bd9a53cde5934987ccd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aafa57cb6b714bd9a53cde5934987ccd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next contribution, can I remind members that this is the \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D. I didn\u2019t want to interrupt the previous member. It\u2019s quite a narrow debate, so just to keep that in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002298325dd6d47f46d3a2e4be205adeb533\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298325dd6d47f46d3a2e4be205adeb533\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have some really specific suggestions for the title. I want to pick up, firstly, the very clear fact that this bill threatens to lock us in to a fossil fuel - dependent future that we know we actually need to be steering away so clearly from, and instead we\u2019re heading towards it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EMy first suggestion to amend the title is the \u201CCrown Minerals Amendment (Shoddy Process) Act\u201D. I say \u201CShoddy Process\u201D because it has such serious implications\u2014not only for Aotearoa but for the world\u2014that it is an absolute disappointment that the submission process for this bill was four days. It\u2019s an insult to New Zealanders; it\u2019s an insult to democracy. Then, there were only two days of public hearings as part of that as well. I want to quote Victoria University professor Dean Knight. He called this \u201Ca meaningless opportunity that doesn\u2019t do justice to the importance of the policy and the legislation.\u201D He said it was \u201Cbad lawmaking\u201D\u2014which it is, hence the suggestion of my title clause\u2014\u201Cand they know it\u201D, because you can\u2019t look at processes like this and think it is getting to positive outcomes. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment (PCE) with this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022040cec87e7c34d528113c1cc6329e8ca\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb8729c6fd441dd8ce81377fa3e150c\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: On this title clause\u2014which I\u2019m suggesting; thank you\u2014the PCE said, \u201CThe advice accompanying the bill does not provide a sufficiently thorough analysis of costs and benefits from repealing the ban\u201D. He talks about New Zealand\u2019s policy always being that all countries should be doing everything they can to reduce emissions, and that MPs must now decide whether removing the ban is consistent with doing that. I\u2019d really like to hear the Minister for Resources\u2019 thoughts on that specific title clause suggestion and whether there has been a very clear decision made by MPs in this Government to move away from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe other suggestion that I wanted to pick up on is a very important one, and this is about how, overwhelmingly, children and young people of today, but also future generations, will bear the burden of living with these climate impacts. On this, I want to suggest another potential title clause amendment, that it could be the \u201CCrown Minerals (Rights of Children Violation) Act\u201D. What is really clear is that this Government, and future and past Governments, have been signatories to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child for over 30 years. The Government has a real, clear duty to these rights of the child, and we actually have a duty to make decisions in the best interests of the child under article 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, I want to pick up on this because UNICEF made a really clear submission to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, and they actually had a young person\u2014Thomas Blakie\u2014come in and talk about his concern, and his concern for young people and those who will come after us, and the implications for them with this bill. He said, \u201CWe want to have a say on designing our future and the future of generations to come\u2014my children, their grandchildren, and their grandchildren after them.\u201D A UNICEF report called A Threat to Progress talks about how children are disproportionately affected because \u201Cthey are uniquely vulnerable to environmental hazards compared to adults.\u201D They talk about how this interplay of physiological, psychological, and behavioural factors, and the dependence on caregivers, means that children are more susceptible to detrimental health impacts of climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI would really like to hear whether the Minister would consider really fronting up with what this bill is about and the implications for children, for young people, and the really concerning process which has led to where we\u2019ve got to at this stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229154b1f168a74f378b8899005e0fbd49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229154b1f168a74f378b8899005e0fbd49\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022818d1578c9dc452fa7ccb59373472e68\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022045cb1acce8c4f64baf238de40798738\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I\u2019ve just started voting\u2014sorry. No one stood up and I just started the votes. The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227836bccf34084f4f8c9adccdc22c74bd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f5d97992c69b42ef9fd08966739bba89\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022793dae9b938f487eae153fa99bc26c09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022793dae9b938f487eae153fa99bc26c09\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 214 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022df7597c8fc674022b31fa559afa2e367\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022976e685d31914169b0ffc2f8a272a22f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225f815be8be424ef08148eebbd1254055\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000309\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000310\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0f5f1e06f3f44ccbb849f220e71f9ac\u0022\u003EREPORT OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c42135a3b114da785594fabb9dc2736\u0022\u003EREPORT OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b871549f0d884ee9a6bc144f65899eec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b871549f0d884ee9a6bc144f65899eec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill (No 2) and reports it without amendment. The committee has also considered the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022908514e4066941a4aa8869edae6127b3\u0022\u003EBuilding (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220860878d57d748cbab6532a609d3ab15\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00225b124fb3d11e4e63860d17bb6e9e863b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b124fb3d11e4e63860d17bb6e9e863b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is sometimes referred to as the Shaky Isles. Our reputation internationally and, of course, our awareness at home is that we are a nation that is subject to significant seismic risk. That is the context for the legislation that we\u2019re considering. Of course, it is the context for our legislative and regulatory settings more generally in relation to seismic risk, in general, and the earthquake-prone building regime in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge, at the start, the risk that exists. We are mindful of that risk. We understand it. We are aware of the need to legislate and regulate in a way that is responsible, given that life-safety risk and given the importance of resilient buildings of certain categories particularly, but, of course, also acknowledging the importance of the built environment. Our desire is to ensure maximum safety and maximum resilience, even as we balance considerations that would enable us to achieve a proportionate approach in relation to that risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to acknowledge the loss of life in the Canterbury earthquakes of a decade or so ago. That formed the backdrop for the legislation that is now being reviewed and whose deadlines are now being extended by this bill. Again, I just acknowledge the importance of the subject matter and that, indeed, that particular loss of life is the backdrop for all of our decision making in consideration of this important subject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESince those earthquakes and the tragedies associated therewith, legislation was put forward by the then Government that seemed to have a well-balanced approach to the question of risk. The only question remaining was the extent to which it would prove practicable, over a period of time, for those settings to be implemented such that building owners and local governments and other key players would be able to put those into effect and remediate and strengthen the buildings as was required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn the intervening nearly decade, considerable progress has been made, and I want to start my reflections on that by congratulating and thanking all those who have acted responsibly to improve the built environment for the safety of themselves, occupants, passers-by, and so on. That said, the relatively easy wins that have been able to be achieved in that time are now behind us, so to speak. The question that we face now, looking forward, is the way in which we can continue to improve the housing stock, the commercial buildings, the infrastructure, and so on, as it relates to seismic risk and, more particularly, whether the settings that we have\u00A0now are appropriate to achieve that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIt seems that for a number of key players\u2014again, I acknowledge local government as an enforcement authority but also a significant owner of such buildings itself, in many cases, and many others affected by the need to comply with the rules and to achieve real-world life-safety and resilience aims. It seems to us that a review of the settings is now prudent. A review was promised that would otherwise have taken place in a couple of years. We\u2019re bringing that forward. That is the lengthy background to the extension that this bill will give effect to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs has been canvassed at previous stages of the debate, the extension is for four years, with the possibility of an additional two, should it be required. I emphasise\u2014again, responding to the very reasonable point made by colleagues opposite\u2014that we would prefer only to use four years as opposed to a total of six years for the extension, but we recognise that for external reasons or indeed the operation of the review itself, subsequent legislation may require that additional time. We\u2019ll use that power sparingly if it should be required\u2014noting, of course, essentially the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D nature of that clause within the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe bill also contains a few other items, probably the most significant of which relates to fire safety\u2014no lesser risk of course\u2014and naturally the Government and, I sense, all of Parliament is minded to take very seriously the risk to life and limb posed by fire no less than earthquakes. Of course, again, there is tragic background to our consideration, and I refer particularly to the Loafers Lodge tragedy, following which a least-regrets or no-regrets approach was taken. That is to say, in addition to the checking of boarding houses for compliance with the existing regulations, the previous Government undertook consideration of ways in which the regulations might be changed in a way that would prove helpful, notwithstanding that a broader review might then also take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThat broader review is now taking place, but I think it\u2019s prudent for that previous Government to have initiated a look into some of the actions that might be taken in the interim. We\u2019re putting those into effect. They\u2019re set out in the bill, and so I don\u2019t intend to go through those in detail. Again, we did have that opportunity at prior stages of the debate. They included clarifying obligations, setting out offences, and so on so that independently qualified persons would have a sound legal basis or a means by which they might be held accountable in the event of failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of other changes in the bill, again, I don\u2019t propose to go through those all again. Legislative statements as well as the debate at previous stages have canvassed those pretty thoroughly, and they\u2019re relatively self-explanatory and, while minor and technical, important in their own right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge, before I conclude my remarks, that the engagement that we have enjoyed in this matter has been exemplary. I\u2019m really grateful, particularly, to sector experts\u2014in no particular order, by the way; I\u2019ll start with sector experts\u2014of an engineering and other relevant backgrounds who have shared their insights with me and the Government more generally and, I know, have been actively engaging across the House, and, again, I thank them for that. Local government were key players in this for the reasons I mentioned before\u2014not only of large cities, including large cities such as Wellington and Christchurch, but also in regional towns in New Zealand that have a higher proportion, often, of earthquake-prone buildings and are so deeply affected by the regulatory settings and the legislative settings that we are putting in place, that we may change, and that, in the meantime, we are extending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBuilding owners: of course, apartments, but also other building owners, some of which are heritage in nature\u2014just to add an additional overlay of complication. Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2014the good folk who have been kind enough to advise me on various technical and policy-related matters throughout. And other parties of this Parliament: I\u2019ve been really pleased with the engagement that I\u2019ve seen and been able to be part of. I do want to acknowledge that, across the House, we\u2019ve had that very positive level of interaction. It\u2019s highly appropriate that a subject like this is treated in such a serious way, and I do want to take a moment to thank members of this House who have engaged in that way\u2014in a way that will be helpful to the certainty that New Zealanders need to feel in this area, notwithstanding any political comings and goings in this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFinally, then, I look forward to the way ahead with the passage of this legislation, today, which will provide that certainty, lock in that additional four years, and a possible extra two. In the meantime, of course, the review proceeds apace, which is to say that this legislation is not an exercise in kicking the can down the road; it\u2019s providing certainty in the meantime, while that review is taking place, in the hope that, in the meantime, we will be able to land on some regulatory and legislative settings that will prove helpful and meaningful for those looking to do the right thing and make changes to strengthen or, as the case may be, demolish and rebuild the environment of New Zealand. So, with that, I thank all again in the House for their participation\u2014all those outside as well for their engagement\u2014and commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221e684c16af7f47b3bdf4368075ae606a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e684c16af7f47b3bdf4368075ae606a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022132046a7143e45f489a301587875bb21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022132046a7143e45f489a301587875bb21\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Labour wants an improved building system which results in the efficient use of the resources that we have to build more homes\u2014warm, dry, affordable homes that people can live in, in our cities and our regions. That\u2019s what we want and that\u2019s why we\u2019ve engaged in this process of a review in good faith. What we don\u2019t want is pendulum swings between certain sets of rules under one Government and certain sets of rules under another, which destabilises the building sector and mean that, ultimately, more houses don\u2019t get built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EEveryone in this House wants to see families with a roof over their heads and with an opportunity to get into homeownership, so we need more affordable places, and that really does affect a lot of these buildings which are affected by the earthquake-prone buildings rules. They are homes. They are people like you and me who have put all of their life savings into apartments in cities like Wellington. They are people in Christchurch who are affected by these rules and cannot live in their homes. They are Aucklanders who have buildings\u2014the highest number of buildings, actually, on the list\u2014that are affected by these rules and cannot develop them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a real level of gravity with which we\u2019ve approached this debate, and we think this balance is appropriate in this context. But, boy, do we want to see the Government using this period of review wisely. Twice the Law Commission has looked into the rules underlying the system, about the liability of not only builders but also homeowners and the councils who approve their consents. Who should bear the liability of earthquakes in New Zealand is a really fundamental question, and we must\u2014if we are taking a step back, we must\u2014use this time well, we must resource it properly, and we must make sure that stakeholders all around the country are getting to feed into this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI just want to make a few points. I won\u2019t labour this, because I think we\u2019ve had a very good parliamentary process where we have really hashed out some of these questions that have been remaining, including at the select committee stage\u2014and may I commend the Transport and Infrastructure Committee chair, Andy Foster, for the way that he chaired that process for submitters to have their say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe big question here is that there is a risk to life and limb in these buildings, and markets do not work well when people do not have the appropriate information that they need to gauge that risk. There\u2019s a group of people in the building system who will be in a building that is earthquake-prone and will have no idea\u2014say, the teenagers who might have used the Reading Cinema on the weekend might not have any idea of the earthquake risk\u2014so it is appropriate not to let people use that kind of building. Then you have another group of people who have a reasonable amount of information. They may be casual users of a building\u2014say, a car park in Wellington that might be earthquake-prone; say, guests of homeowners who might be in an apartment that is affected by earthquake risk. There\u2019s people who have very limited information, and then there are also homeowners who, for whatever reason, do not have a huge amount of information available to them that they can rely on to make the risk. These are all people where it\u2019s a very, very clear example of consumers who need Government to act in their best interest by setting the rules at a certain level that they can\u00A0rely on; that they are not putting themselves at undue risk from any building that they go into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EOn the other end of the spectrum, we also know that very sophisticated commercial arrangements around insurance, where information is readily available to the market, are not working well either\u2014that insurance is very hard to get for many of the apartment owners in Wellington and for building owners around the country who are affected by the earthquake rules. We need a system designed so that the information that is being used is not too risk-averse and that adequately reflects the financial implications in the future and now, and so that we\u2019re getting the right kind of market outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn some situations, it will be that the current owners need to sell buildings and then there needs to be redevelopment, but in some situations, it will mean that insurance should be cheaper for the owners because the real risk to buildings doesn\u2019t reflect the current cost. We need Government to make a call to step into the market to provide the accurate information at a level that people can rely on, that everyone in the market can agree to, and then a standard going forward. There is a bit of an exercise here of drawing a line, and we must do that with some haste. We feel that this bill does that with a reasonable degree of certainty, but we think we really need to use this time and to not delay it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe only final point I would make is that New Zealand has a history of very costly mistakes when it comes to building policy. Leaky buildings across this country\u2014what one commentator estimated to be $47 billion in costs associated not only with the building sector, not only with participants, but to the wider economy as a whole. I would like to think that, in supporting this, the Labour Party is showing that we are willing to work through those issues and to not make the mistakes of the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe will continue to ask the questions that give building participants a level of surety that Government is designing a system which works for everyone; which does not tighten the level of protections at all levels of the building sector rules in such a way where the little guy is left holding the can\u2014where, on one hand, you might make changes to the earthquake rules; on one hand, you might make changes to the consenting rules; and, on one hand, you might make changes to provisions for building products. If at all points in those changes you are leaving the little guy with the liability, then I will propose to you that we are in for a system problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe need to make sure that the system as a whole distributes the liability fairly\u2014that is what I think is being done here by making an extension\u2014but we will continue to pose the questions, we will continue to advocate for the little guy in this, and we will continue to advocate for Government not needing to be the insurer of last resort. It is really important, when you have vulnerable consumers, that the Government is not left holding the can. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002279fc6de8f705452e81844149fe329c2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279fc6de8f705452e81844149fe329c2f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand to also support this bill because, as we have heard, this bill is something that is going to provide certainty for a lot of people while we conduct the review process of where we are at in terms of earthquake-prone buildings. The extra time is very much welcome. I\u2019d also like to thank the Minister for Building and Construction for his level of engagement and contributions during the committee stage, because I think a lot of that was incredibly valuable and it also provided a lot of clarification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThere are a number of parts to this bill, so I would like to go through some of the major areas that are a part of this bill, with, as we know, earthquake-prone buildings being the most important element. I\u2019ll start with that one, and then I\u2019ll address some of the other areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the things with the earthquake-prone buildings extension of deadlines is that, in essence, it is a really, really good idea, as we have heard. There is a review that\u2019s going to be happening. It\u2019s going to provide a lot of reassurance for people in the community and for owners\u2014particularly, in the context of apartment owners\u2014that this is something that they\u2019re able to have an extension on and to have some time. They can have that reassurance that they\u2019re able to have this extension, so in that way, they don\u2019t have to get everything all sorted at the immediate stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think that the four-year extension does strike the right balance. There were a lot of conversations around the further extension of two years, particularly when it comes to the triggering of the \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause in this case, but I think that upon balance and upon examination in the committee stage, the fact that the additional two years may not be triggered depending on where the review is currently at, plus the addition of the sunset clause, does allow some sort of restriction on the scope of that particular clause. The Green Party, in particular, is often quite cautious when anything like this does take place, and I think that in this case we have got some reassurances from the Minister that this is something that would be carefully managed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn addition to this, some of the other things that we have also addressed when it comes to the earthquake-prone buildings deadlines is the retrospectivity element of this bill, which is that anything that is before 1 April 2024 will be covered by some of this, and then, after that, it will not be covered. We did question the Minister around the use of that particular term. I think that the Minister did clarify that, in general, when we were looking at the financial year, etc., 1 April seemed like an appropriate timing to use in this case, and there are always going to be people who fall on either side of that particular deadline who are not going to be entirely happy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other element that was addressed, and it was an element and an aspect of discussion during the committee stage, was around the risk and the potential risk to people\u2019s lives. We are giving this extension of four years, and people who have more urgency during this period to undertake the earthquake-strengthening work that was needed may not see that as being urgent with a four-year extension, and we asked what would be the real-life cost of a lot of these. I think, again, this is something that both the regulatory impact statement but also the Minister mentioned that in terms of the life risk, it is reasonably low. For those people who are already going to make those kinds of changes and have been intending to make those kinds of changes, they are going to do it anyway, and for those people who still have that stringency of the previous deadline and who are unable to meet it, they weren\u2019t going to meet it, regardless of whether the extension is going to happen or not. I think that that is the really salient point that has been mentioned during the committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOverall, that was the section around the earthquake-prone strengthening element, but there are a few other areas that I want to address that are also important as part of this bill and that we did have some discussions on during the committee stage. The first one is around the building consent authority (BCA) and there is a change in the liability to pay for the levy. As the current system says, when you get the BCA and they are collecting some of these levies, it goes to the local authorities as an intermediary step before they go on to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), and in this particular bill, it proposes the removal of that intermediary stage with the local authorities and for them to go from the BCA straight to MBIE.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThere were some conversations around whether local authorities would potentially lose out on some of this, and particularly, when we\u2019re looking at clause 5 of this particular bill and the amendments in clause 7 to section 61 of the Building Act, the 3 percent levy that is retained by local authorities\u2014whether that will see local authorities losing out. Again, this is something that we did receive clarification on with regard to the administrative nature of some of this, and, again, it\u2019s just making that process a lot more streamlined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the other elements that we did discuss during this bill as well was around the increased penalties for the independently qualified persons\u2014or IQPs\u2014who make erroneous claims or erroneous reports around the building requirements. This is an area that is missing in the current legislation and can be perceived as a loophole, and it is a loophole that potentially has been exploited by some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis particular bill just strengthens some of that accountability element and transparency element of the duties of the independently qualified persons, though on other things, we did\u00A0ask the Minister, and we did get clarification from the Minister on them as well. It\u2019s around where the burden of proof lies when it comes to whether an IQP did actually make a\u00A0reasonable mistake, and some of the context and scenarios around what constitutes a reasonable mistake. Also, there were further conversations around the proportionality of fines, and we were looking at whether the fines for the IQPs are proportionate to some of the other fines that we see\u00A0here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOn the subject of fines, there was another area where we did discuss a little bit around clause 32 of the bill, in terms of some of the balance between the fines, particularly when it comes to people making false claims around certain building permits and building warrants of fitness, and the proportionality with some other parts. We did question the Minister as to whether the fines were proportionate with some of the other fines that we see and, again, we had some clarification around the fact that this is less about reviewing the fines on the whole and more around balancing and judging the proportionality and evening out fines of a similar nature, as well as looking at fines that, potentially, are different. That was, again, something else that we received clarification on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think the last thing I will mention, in the context of this bill, is around the display of a warrant of fitness for, in particular, dams, which is an element of this. That was something that I think, even during the select committee stage, we were trying to see. It is something that is going to be removed, because the current system potentially doesn\u2019t quite make sense and it does add additional challenges for dams in general. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ELooking at the broader context of this bill, I think it is really, really important that we do address the fact that earthquake-strengthening is an important factor. We do need to address the future of housing in Aotearoa, particularly when we are looking at instances where some of our urban centres are having increased density, and looking at how we can build it right in the first place, rather than having what we are doing now. We have heard previous speakers mention Wellington, as well as \u014Ctautahi/Christchurch, but also one of my colleagues, Celia Wade-Brown, mentioned during the committee stage some of the challenges to other areas of Aotearoa as well, such as the Wairarapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think that, in this case, both in terms of our building code and our requirement around strengthening when building a first build for both residential and also commercial premises, that\u2019s something that we do need to keep a very close eye on, because it does have the potential of not only costing us financially but also costing us from a human life perspective. I think, particularly when we\u2019re looking at an element of natural disasters such as earthquakes, we also should consider climate change - induced disasters, such as the flooding that we\u2019ve seen on the East Coast and also in T\u0101maki-makau-rau/Auckland and how some of these things, as we\u2019re considering the building code and the Building Act on the whole, are able to contribute to this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ELastly, in terms of the earthquake part, again, it is good to just see some reassurances that this review will take place in the appropriate time and that we are going to be able to see some changes to those earthquake-prone buildings. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc8d3ebc4b184088ab4f62b23945ca52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc8d3ebc4b184088ab4f62b23945ca52\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Building in New Zealand is full of uncertainty. From the moment someone comes up with a concept of a plan or to develop a piece of property or to renovate an existing piece, the uncertainty begins. We\u2019ve got economic uncertainty: \u201CAm I going to get the lending? Have I got someone to buy this development? Are there going to be the products available, the labour, the skills needed when I need them to actually get this project off the ground?\u201D I would like to congratulate the Minister on bringing forward such a wonderful piece of legislation, because this country\u2019s building industry needs certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the situation we have now in this specific part of our building industry is around the ways in which one can achieve earthquake levels that are seen as sufficient. Now, we\u2019ve got a lot of players in our building industry. We\u2019ve got the builder; you\u2019ve got the owner, the client; you\u2019ve got the building consenting authority; you\u2019ve got the public and the safety which they expect and this Government is required to ensure; and we\u2019ve got councils and planning. There are a lot of people with their fingers in the pie. Joint and several liability has led to a situation where all of those people are pushing the burden on to each other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EWe need to get more certainty into our industry, and I think this piece of legislation, enabling an extension for a review to take place, is exactly what the doctor ordered in this particular instance. It\u2019s setting the groundwork for future developments in our industry, with standalone building consenting authorities and making that a situation where they can be seen more as an independent organisation, rather than just another wing of the council, along with waste and parks and other assorted activities which councils must do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI would be remiss not to, in this case, thank the submitters. At the select committee, we had some great submissions which raised some interesting points. In the report back, with other matters that were raised that weren\u2019t exactly relevant but were raised, I think you can see that there is a lot of interest in the future make-up of the regulatory systems of our building industry. No lesser members than the independently qualified persons and the building warrant of fitness regime which they are a core part of have something to say. I think the Minister has sufficiently addressed that he is looking into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI will just thank the rest of the committee. I know I did in the second reading, but I think it was a very collegial committee, ably chaired by Mr Andy Foster. With that, I would like to commend this to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00228721e237a7c7437cb2f5b77d5b9728f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228721e237a7c7437cb2f5b77d5b9728f0\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019m pleased to rise to speak to this third reading and I also just want to pay my thanks to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. You\u2019ve already heard from a couple of members there. We do work collegially together and, as I\u2019ve said before, I\u2019d invite any member of this House to come and have a look at how a collegial committee works together; it\u2019s a good thing to see, because that\u2019s the way we should be operating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI also wanted to place on record my thanks to the officials from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment in particular, but also to the submitters. We did get some really good submitters. Some of those submissions, particularly around the independently qualified person (IQP) issues, were not ones which are\u2014while the stick, in a sense, is in the legislation, they certainly made comments around saying, \u201CWell, we need a regime which actually provides a lot better professionalism of that industry, but also the support mechanisms\u201D, so they\u2019re not left on their own, essentially, and other people have run for the hills. That\u2019s really, really important. We got 23 submissions: 12\u00A0in favour, nine unclear\u2014but that\u2019s because they were raising these other matters\u2014and only two opposed. It\u2019s really great to see the bill really well supported in the House, because it makes good common sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to focus specifically on the earthquake-prone component. As we\u2019ve heard already, it just simply extends the deadlines which were already there. If you\u2019re after 1 April 2024, it extends it for four years. There is another two years, but as you\u2019ve heard from the Minister, the desire is not to use that but to get the review through in time so it doesn\u2019t need to be done. If that power is exercised, it can only be exercised once, and it can only be exercised for all buildings. You can\u2019t cherry-pick; that\u2019s the way it works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI thought it was worth just reflecting on why we have seismic legislation, and the reason is, as we\u2019ve heard from the Minister, that we live in some shaky isles. Look, it was interesting to reflect on and find out some information there: we get something like 14,000 earthquakes a year\u201414,000 earthquakes a year\u2014of which we can feel probably around 250. We sit right on top of the Ring of Fire, of course. We sit on the place where the Australasian and Pacific faults or plates collide. If you look at a map of Zealandia, the continent we sit on, over the 70 to 80 million years since the separation from Gondwanaland, it has changed\u2014and changed, and changed\u2014and it will continue to change. And that, of course, brings seismic activity with\u00A0it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe heard from some of the speakers at the second reading suggesting it was inappropriate to compare the number of people who have died in earthquakes against the number of people who\u2019ve died in road crashes, which I did, but it wasn\u2019t to belittle by any circumstances the human stories, the human tragedy there is in earthquakes. The point that they made was that whether you lived or died in the Christchurch earthquake depended on where you were at 12.51 p.m. on 22 February 2011. Let\u2019s be very clear that that was a tragedy; the Christchurch earthquake was a tragedy and the vast majority of the 185 people who died died because buildings or bits of buildings fell on them. A robust regime is an appropriate and fitting response to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EFor the record, since 1840, 493 people are recorded to have died in earthquakes\u2014185 in the Canterbury earthquakes\u2014and more than half of those deaths occurred in one earthquake, the Napier earthquake in 1931: 256 people. Just for completeness, I couldn\u2019t easily find the\u00A0road deaths before 1921, but from 1921 until now, the death toll on our roads is 41,821, which is more people than we\u2019ve lost in every war put together. That\u2019s something that is worth saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s also be very clear, it\u2019s my belief that we do need to have resilient building structures. When the whole IQP process started, over 7,000 buildings were deemed to be earthquake-prone. To date, something like 2,000 have been resolved. It\u2019s about 27 to 28 percent of them that have been resolved, and as at 6 August, when this bill was brought to the House, 5,421 buildings were on the earthquake list. As I said, about 27 to 28 percent have been resolved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI live in Wellington, we work in Wellington, and I\u2019d like you to consider the likelihood of\u00A0a major earthquake that might affect Wellington, because this has always been a serious issue for Wellington, right since 1855 when there was a first earthquake here which did cause some fatalities. Over the next 50 years, we\u2019ve been advised that there\u2019s a 75 percent chance of a magnitude 8-plus movement on the Alpine Fault, which would affect Wellington and affect, obviously, the South Island; the Wellington Fault itself, only a 5\u00A0percent chance of a magnitude 7.5; and the Hikurangi Fault, which is where those two plates collide, 25 percent for a magnitude 8 and, God help us, a 1 percent chance for a magnitude 9.1, which would be absolutely devastating. The risks to life and limb\u2014I\u2019ve given some numbers for the number of people who\u2019ve died in earthquakes since 1840; if some of those\u00A0happen, they may dwarf those things. This is serious business, and we need to be prepared for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWellington City started an extensive programme of assessments in 2006, well before the Canterbury earthquakes, and has assessed 8,440 buildings. It found 1,100 of those to be earthquake-prone, and it\u2019s down to about 572 now. Basically, 50 percent of those have been resolved, and it\u2019s come at significant cost\u2014it\u2019s come at significant cost. Auckland: lower risk, but three times as many earthquake-prone buildings as Wellington. I might just say also that the authorities say there is a 10 percent chance in the next 50 years of major volcanic activity in Auckland. We do live on shaky and challenged isles. If we look overseas, we\u2019ve seen that there are many countries which have suffered large numbers of deaths in earthquakes, largely because they\u2019ve had very poor building stock, so being prepared is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe point that I was trying to make is that there is an immense cost to making our building stock resilient. Sometimes that cost may well not be warranted and sometimes we could do that in a different way, and that is the reason for this extension. That\u2019s the reason that we\u2019re doing a review. There are also problems for industry capacity, owner capacity, and affordability, and, obviously, making sure that the regime is optimal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI just want to congratulate the Minister for undertaking the comprehensive review. I welcome that it\u2019s being brought forward. I also welcome the comments made by my colleague across House, Arena Williams, saying that there is a desire for stability, because when you invest in a building, you invest in a building that you expect to be there for a long, long time. When the rules change\u2014and we heard this in the submissions process, from Inner City Wellington in particular\u2014you might have a building which is not earthquake-prone, 60-70 percent or whatever it might be, the rules change and suddenly you\u2019ve got an earthquake-prone building. That kind of looks a bit like retrospective legislation. The point that they made is that it\u2019s a moving feast\u2014that it\u2019s never done. That is not something which we should be imposing on our building owners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe also heard from Inner City Wellington\u2014and it puts a real human face on the challenge that there is\u2014that many residents feel trapped. They\u2019ve got a building; it\u2019s suddenly earthquake-prone. It wasn\u2019t before; it\u2019s now earthquake-prone. Now they\u2019ve got to work out how to afford the insurance, how to sort the finances out, how to deal with issues around unit titles legislation, because they\u2019ve got to pull all these owners together, and the physical complexity of actually organising and strengthening a building. Those are really challenging issues. The last Government had a go at trying to put in place a regime to provide some support, but I understand that it was so complicated that nobody was actually in a position to take it up. I think one building might have got close, but they didn\u2019t quite get there. Sometimes we\u2019ve just got to take some risks and back people to do those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EAs you heard from Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, I\u2019d like to also reflect on what this means, too, for our aspirations to densify the inner city, particularly here, but it\u2019ll also be true in Christchurch and, I\u2019m sure, in other parts of our country. If we\u2019ve got aspirations to do that, we need to have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d36543b0cbc14cd78dcce1ad25831492\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Timaru.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216711d6106d64959b15332875eca147b\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Timaru; yeah\u2014a regime that actually works and gives people confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EJust to finish off with, we need to make sure that we provide certainty for people. We also need to understand the way in which the market responds to reduced New Building Standard - equivalent ratings. We\u2019re seeing that, by and large, people in this place want to say, \u201CWell, look, we will not rent a place that\u2019s not 80-plus percent. It was 80 percent; now it\u2019s less than 80 percent, so now we\u2019ll walk away from it.\u201D What does that do for the market? That\u2019s an issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThen there are issues around the credibility of assessments and making sure that people understand and can rely on assessments and that they don\u2019t change over time. What about single-storey wooden buildings? Maybe I\u2019m raising a few things here for the review to consider. What is the likelihood that they\u2019ll collapse? What is the likelihood that they might kill somebody? We\u2019ve got a whole heap of single-storey wooden buildings. I\u2019ll bet you there are a fair few marae in there as well. Should they be covered by this? Because we don\u2019t cover single-storey residential properties. There are a lot of issues which need to be dealt with through this review, and I\u2019m looking forward very much to getting through its process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EFinally, the other thing I wanted to say is\u2014and the Minister also did allude to this\u2014there are often much-loved and economically valuable heritage buildings which are caught up in this as well. By no means all the buildings which are earthquake-prone are heritage buildings, but those are buildings which we need to find a solution for, because we list them not because of private good but because of public good, and we need to think about how we support those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EAnd finally, how do we stop ourselves building in dumb places? I\u2019d like to reflect that the Christchurch City Council said, going back a few years, they didn\u2019t want to have that development occurring in what is now the red zone. They fought against that. They got overruled by the court system; developers trying to develop it. That\u2019s the red zone. That\u2019s cost the country an enormous amount, and a lot of those homes have now, of course, disappeared. It\u2019s a complex subject, a technical subject. That complexity is for the review, but this bill in this sense is a sensible one. It\u2019s clearly well supported, and I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b4faa6b41a4c65b41903e2227a7978\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u00221514e0fc1f4e47b4942085974b72d3a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221514e0fc1f4e47b4942085974b72d3a4\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. The marae is the focal point of M\u0101ori society and all communal activities\u2014koinei ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a Dr Ranginui Walker [these are the words of Dr Ranginui Walker.] Apart from many, many other marvellous things that he said, this is one of them that I want to focus on i roto i taku k\u014Drero [in my speech.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAgain, we bring to the attention of the House the precarious state of marae throughout the motu, that may be forced to close and be demolished if they fail to meet the deadlines. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori notes feedback from the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, which has proposed two minor changes for inclusion into the principal Act. One of them is the deadlines for completing seismic work, and the other is to allow the Governor-General to extend on any of those deadlines. For some marae, time extensions without the necessary funds required for seismic upgrades simply delays the inevitable, and this bill does not address the fundamental inability for marae and hap\u016B to afford seismic strengthening. Often marae and hap\u016B are called\u00A0upon to assist with civil emergency efforts. Doors open willingly to accommodate and support those in need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EMost marae do not have a business plan\u2014I giggle because that\u2019s so true\u2014and yet they are functional, available, and they\u2019re good to go. Yesterday, we received a call\u2014and some of us, maybe many, will understand this. Marae can be called into action immediately, as they were yesterday when we received a call from one of our marae that one of our whanaunga had passed. Suddenly, the marae kicks into gear, somebody heads down there and starts making up 200 beds, and suddenly there\u2019s three people in the kitchen doing all\u00A0that work to make that available for the kaupapa, as we did for Gabrielle in Whang\u0101rei. I was part of that effort\u2014both H\u016Bhana and I, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just making the point about the importance and the significance. A marae is more than just a building; it is a place of worship and gathering. It is a place that has whakapapa to it. When we talk about marae, we don\u2019t talk about just the building, and we don\u2019t just talk about the bricks and mortar of it; we talk about the t\u016Bpuna that it comes from. We talk about all the work you do when you dress your marae. All of those factors are key. When we need a marae in a civil defence emergency, that\u2019s what you get; you get all of that. You get the physical structure, you get the four aunties in the back who are going to suddenly make bread for 200\u00A0people that are coming in the door, and you get all of that M\u0101ori capability. It\u2019s an impressive thing. When these requirements come into play, it might sound relatively simple for a building, but it\u2019s quite something else for a marae building.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EMarae must be supported as the lifeline critical infrastructure that they are, and to realise this before emergencies occur. It cannot be left unsaid that many marae do not sit on the original sites where they once stood\u2014illegally evicted off their lands, on to reserves, which we heard about in Christchurch recently, designed to be small, scattered, and temporary. Amidst these challenges, climate change continues to threaten coastal communities nationwide and further compounds funding challenges. You see, this removal of whenua and its conservation under European doctrines of financial power and control contributes to the death of people\u2014of M\u0101ori, and, in this case, non-M\u0101ori as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThis means our marae, urup\u0101, and w\u0101hi tapu are vulnerable to flooding, coastal erosion, storm surges, and tidal issues. This is a real-life experience of how ecological control has contributed to the financial challenges we face today. A special pathway for marae must be\u00A0set to meet those deadlines, inclusive of funding availability, and that must occur, otherwise marae inherit all of the national expectation with no national resources. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2fc4b709b2d4fd0bb212afa3cb6b76b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2fc4b709b2d4fd0bb212afa3cb6b76b\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa lava, Madam Speaker. I stand on behalf of the Greens to provide this short offering of support for this legislation and the amendments. The extension is important. As we know, there has been a pipeline and pressure on the sector, industry, local government, and homeowners to meet the previous time lines provided. The four years is important, as we\u2019ve heard across the House, providing the space and time for us to ready ourselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EOne of the questions that comes to mind is: what is the plan? Then also: do we have the workforce, do we have the resourcing and the tools available, the capital, the contractors to line up the work? And where is our focus? Standing here in Te Whanganui-a-Tara, it\u2019s important to think about places such as Christchurch, Wellington, and Auckland, \u0101e, but for people in the regions\u2014and we\u2019ve heard about the Wairarapa; we might have heard about Tai Tokerau; north, south, east, west\u2014we all need support. What does implementation look like, ultimately, across the board as we have this four-year time frame for us to do the mahi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIn considering the types of buildings, and we\u2019ve heard about good town planning, good regional planning, and not building in dumb places\u2014that\u2019s a good question in terms of joining up the system\u2014what does that look like to prevent what we have experienced in the past, while still servicing the need to remediate the buildings of now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI thank members for their contributions around our heritage buildings\u2014heritage buildings which reflect our community and some of our colonial experiences, public buildings that are often also administered by community groups. We\u2019ve got a lot of not-for-profits who have administered these buildings for many years and now have the burden of trying to figure out how to fund the necessary remediation in this space\u2014this, coupled with marae, who again, as we\u2019ve heard from my colleague from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, lack resources to be able to do the work in their local rohe. It\u2019s all a part of the plan, so what does the plan look like? Incentives for our homeowners as well as those who are the administrating bodies of both public and heritage buildings are really important in terms of our trajectory for the next four years as we have the space to do this work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the many who contributed to the select committee process. We as the Green Party are comfortable with where we\u2019ve landed\u2014the amendments recommended\u2014and further, I want to acknowledge our workforce and my colleague from the ACT Party, being the voice of builders and construction in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EMany of our industry partners\u2014we have big wait-lists, right? That\u2019s just for your average stuff. Having the four years now, and I think about the Tai Tokerau perspective, how do we work with the workforce to get the necessary tradies in place so that the contracts are all timed well and those that are most at risk are put to the top of the list, but, equally, working with local government on not building in dumb places? It would be really good to have that joined-up space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThe big question, of course, is for the community, for the community who administer these buildings with love and care, whether it be a marae, whether it be a heritage building, or those that are with our community halls; you know, you get a little bit of a grant, but you\u2019ve got to do the sausage sizzle on the daily to keep these buildings intact and delivering for our communities. What does that look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI know this is implementation k\u014Drero, but it is timely for us to think about it, right? We\u2019ve set the scene. We\u2019re giving the space and time for us to now plan out our future in terms of remediating the space and providing the space for community and owners to do the mahi, for the strengthening of their homes and buildings. But, again, it\u2019s a question of funding for our un-resourced community sector, for marae, for hap\u016B, and wider Aotearoa, and homeowners. We can\u2019t forget them. What are our incentives? Let\u2019s keep the waka moving. On behalf of the Green Party, we support this. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2122ee645d4498da614e797ba93467a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2122ee645d4498da614e797ba93467a\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. I rise in support of this bill, the Building (Earthquake-prone Building Deadlines and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, on the third reading. It\u2019s been a very collegial process with the Transport and Infrastructure Committee being ably chaired by Andy Foster, and my other committee members\u2014I\u2019d like to thank them for their part in making some good, practical, and pragmatic changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EI just want to focus mainly on the earthquake changes\u2014the length of time extension. We always want to remember, as we\u2019re doing this, that this stuff is very real and very recent, with the impacts we had recently in Christchurch of the devastating earthquakes down there. That\u2019s always what sits in our minds as we extend this time frame out to work on what regulations we need around buildings in earthquake-prone areas, and regulations we come up with, as we review those regulations, to make them appropriate moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003ESpeaking as the member of Parliament for Northland, we\u2019ve got to actually take account of the risk factors in an area like Northland, which I would suggest are quite different to Wellington. Whereas Wellington sits on a fault line, Northland\u2014gee! I think, in my entire life, I might have felt one earthquake, at about 3.2 or something like that, in the North. We just don\u2019t tend to get them. I was on my motorbike at the time. As it happens, I can recall getting the cows in, as it was, so I was out there working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003ESo, look, I just think we\u2019ve got to take all that into account, and I like to think, as we go through this process to review these regulations, that we take account of the risk factors, because different parts of the country will have different risks. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002226b85fb854e549caa9e25895e6af9a98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226b85fb854e549caa9e25895e6af9a98\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is interrupted and is set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202411191845bdd97c2348ef89e6d562219adb53000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"